In the meantime, take a look at the faces of a few people who were killed by those bastards.
An Army of One Remembers
It has been a year since the terrorist attacks on Washington DC and New York. Many of us were posting here when the planes struck and Pelle has collected a series of the initial posts.
What do you remember about that day? Has your life changed at all since then? Has the US changed? Has the world changed?
2. ronski - 9/9/2002 4:23:40 PM
I think we will see just how much the world has changed when Bush invades Iraq. I also suspect the administration has plans, of some kind, for Iran, and even possibly North Korea.
I don't think Bush targeted the three of them as an axis of evil for no particular reason.
Maybe Syria is due for a regime change before long, as well.
3. wabbit - 9/9/2002 4:26:44 PM
I went to visit my parents yesterday and found my brother sitting at the kitchen table with a map of the middle east open, looking at how Iran will be invaded once troops are in Iraq.
4. ronski - 9/9/2002 4:27:04 PM
As for me, personally, I have to say I remain frightened over the safety of U.S. cities. I think we are still very vulnerable to some truly horrible things, despite the dispersal of al Qaeda.
Of course, I still work in the City most days, and travel to it for all sorts of things, but I do feel a little safer living out in the far exurbs (despite being not too distant from a nuclear power plant).
5. ronski - 9/9/2002 4:29:39 PM
Did folks see, on the cover of Newsweek, Tom Franklin's picture of the three firefighters a year after 9/11? I found it quite moving.
Apparently, Newsday had wanted it to be taken at Ground Zero, but the firefighters nixed that idea.
6. theDiva - 9/9/2002 4:38:26 PM
I have a 9/11 hangover today. Last night before I went to bed, I spent time reading the special One Year Later section from the Sunday Post. At my church there were crosses all over the lawn, bearing names of parishioners, friends, and family who were killed in the attack. I've been thinking about my friends who were spared through mere happenstance.
I try not to have hatred, anger, and the need for vengeance in my heart, but it is so hard. God help us all.
7. wabbit - 9/9/2002 4:39:20 PM
Ronski, I'm about an hour's drive west of you, when I am able to get out to my house (work keeps us in greater Boston for now). I remember the reservoirs being patrolled for the first few weeks, but that seems to have been dismissed as a serious threat now.
I wonder how many people distant from NYC and Washington still feel the impact of that day. In Boston, it is most noticable at the airport, though I understand a memorial is being planned for the entrance to the Public Gardens.
8. thoughtful - 9/9/2002 4:53:40 PM
I know what I'm not doing on 9/11...that's tuning in to any media at all...the anniversary isn't even here and I'm already overloaded with the talk about what's being done, the critiques of what is and isn't being done, the talk about the critiques and the critiques of the talk about the critiques. Enough.
For me, it will be a day of quiet reflection and a day that will include some activity to benefit the community.
9. ronski - 9/9/2002 4:56:22 PM
Diva,
Like you, I try not to feel hatred. Most of the time, I don't. But I do feel the same icy resolve to root out every last terrorist and to destroy utterly their ideology, or rather, to support my government in its efforts to do so. (And I know the impossibility of being 100% successful, for this war is not a question of just destroying a Nazi or Tojo government, and holding free elections after a few years.)
Now, I still don't know whether invading Iraq is the right way to go about fighting terrorist threats to the West, but I'm pretty sure that (1) Bush will do that, and (2) I will end up supporting the effort, at least in the beginning.
10. ronski - 9/9/2002 4:57:02 PM
I also will avoid all media, except the paper my partner works for.
11. ronski - 9/9/2002 4:59:41 PM
I also have been wondering:
Remember how the Friday night after the attacks, candles were lit everywhere, in peoples homes? The word spread quickly over the internet.
Are people going to do that the night of 9/11?
I intend to do so, regardless.
Last year, we left a candle burning all night, at the top of the driveway, by the road.
In the morning, when I went to get the paper, it was still flickering, and then, with the rays of the sun, slowly faded away.
12. ronski - 9/9/2002 5:03:40 PM
I have been reading a lot of bloggers lately. One that I saw today responded to admonitions to the U.S. to be mindful of the "root causes" of Muslim anger, with a photo he entitled "the root cause of American anger."
It was the photo you may remember of the man falling head first from the Towers.
Chilling.
I don't feel hatred.
But I am still angry as hell.
13. theDiva - 9/9/2002 5:24:29 PM
Ronski
mostly, I pray. I will be singing Wednesday night at a special mass at our church.
I like the candle idea. Maybe at the end of our cul de sac.
14. ronski - 9/9/2002 5:34:49 PM
15. ronski - 9/9/2002 5:39:07 PM
In the Aftermath of 9/11, IT Problems
16. wabbit - 9/9/2002 5:40:12 PM
I remember the candles. And the flags, flags everywhere. I usually feel more numb than anything else, then the anger sets in.
One of the widows was asked (on some program, I can't remember if it was on tv or radio, there has been so much coverage already that it is all blurring together) whether she thought September 11 should be declared a holiday. Her reply was something along the lines of 'Absolutely not.' She said she didn't need a holiday declared to remember what happened and didn't think it was appropriate that people get a day off from work to commemorate the attacks.
I'll probably spend at least part of the day with family. I think Spunky plans to spend the morning on the golf course.
17. theDiva - 9/9/2002 5:44:03 PM
Yes. I still have my flag hanging in my office. The County is holding three different services to commemorate...some of our firefighters and EMTs helped out at the Pentagon, and some of our CSB and DSS workers went to NY to help out with therapy.
Definitely it should not be a national holiday. We will never forget.
I'm afraid to send Gracie to school. Irrational, I know.
18. arkymalarky - 9/9/2002 5:51:46 PM
We've got small activities planned all week with the students and they came up with the ideas. I was abashed to find today was red/white/blue day and I'd forgotten about it. At first I couldn't figure out why all the kids looked so similar this morning.
19. Cellar Door - 9/9/2002 6:22:49 PM
I don't feel hatred, just disgust. And it's not directed solely at the perpetrators of this grotesque ugly criminal spree. It's directed at this country as well. But in a different way, of course.
We never seem to learn anything. Nor do we have the slightest bit of interest in figuring out why we are so hated by our darkest enemies, and increasingly reviled by our former friends. It's all written off as irrational. We're AMERICA! We're supposed to be the Envy of the World. The Land of Freedom!
And we're not.
Our press is corporate controlled. Our officials are appointed, not elected. They're there to serve only the coporate elite. And no one else.
You get the picture I'm sure.
I'm "Anti-American."
Yeah, right. Whatever you say. I've heard it all before.
20. concerned - 9/9/2002 6:33:28 PM
I'd like to bottle all the negativist EU attitude toward taking any action against terrorism, to be able to break it out jic a major terrorist event occurs on the continent.
21. concerned - 9/9/2002 6:34:49 PM
But I'm an optimist. I rather expect 9/11 to come and go without anything truly disastrous happening.
22. judithathome - 9/9/2002 6:37:59 PM
Wabbit, extremely nice heading for this thread.
23. concerned - 9/9/2002 6:38:24 PM
Our press is corporate controlled. Our officials are appointed, not elected. They're there to serve only the coporate elite. And no one else.
Just for the sake of argument, let's say your little wishful assumption above is correct but it all changed for the better tomorrow, cllrdr, do you think America's foreign critics would ever know the difference, or admit it if they did?
Absolutely not.
24. Absensia - 9/9/2002 6:52:53 PM
I am saddened and distressed about what happened. My fear and anger is directed toward the government, especially Bush and Ascroft. They have taken advantage of the 9/11 events to ignore the constition and ignore civil rights. It is good, the court has ruled against them, but I await the ruling of the US Supreme Court, considering it's makeup.
25. concerned - 9/9/2002 7:05:58 PM
Wow, absensia. Looks like you think the real bad guys are in Washington.
26. concerned - 9/9/2002 7:07:48 PM
If we only did (what, exactly?) different. The question that the anti-Bushites never seem to get around to providing any real answer for.
27. concerned - 9/9/2002 7:10:34 PM
I'm sure Bush & Co. will find some way to use the war on terrorism to throw everybody's grandparents and children out on the street.....that's all greedy corporate pigs ever want to do, of course, so that they can sit back and watch them suffer.
Of course, that's just the way it is.
28. judithathome - 9/9/2002 7:10:37 PM
Why not save your antiliberal sentiments for the Politics thread, concerned? Surely you can tolerate people expressing themselves in this thread without accusing and turning it all into a political screed?
29. concerned - 9/9/2002 7:11:56 PM
I did no such thing, JAH. In fact, you can see how I just lambasted the eee-vile Republicans who are at the root of the world's misery, myself.
30. concerned - 9/9/2002 7:12:55 PM
There is much eeevile brewing in the white house. Throw the illegitimate ape out!
31. Absensia - 9/9/2002 7:17:09 PM
Yes I do think that, Concerned. I think they way over reacted. Just with whom are we at war? Seems the constitution indicates we declare against some one. Yes there are lots of bad guys out there, and we need to find and bring to trisl. public trial, those who are a real threat or have acted against the US. I don't understand what all the secrecrcy is about.
32. Absensia - 9/9/2002 7:21:33 PM
I thought this thread was for expressing personal opinions formed in the last year and not for arguing. There are lots of different opinions and that's interesting and just fine.
33. Cellar Door - 9/9/2002 7:47:32 PM
"I'm sure Bush & Co. will find some way to use the war on terrorism to throw everybody's grandparents and children out on the street"
They're already out on the street.
34. Cellar Door - 9/9/2002 7:48:42 PM
"Just for the sake of argument, let's say your little wishful assumption above is correct but it all changed for the better tomorrow, cllrdr, do you think America's foreign critics would ever know the difference, or admit it if they did?
Absolutely not."
If it changed for the better YOU would be the one complaining, connie.
35. jexster - 9/9/2002 7:58:40 PM
I was about to start a fight but Abs, UR right.
But there are different angles to the several perspectives themselves personal to each of us...
So the question - what's changed?
Not much.
Beginning with the umpire's cry "Play Ball!" at first MLB game post 9/11, the country has steadily been unwinding which peaked with the Northern Alliance victory in Afghanistan.
Outside NYC and the Beltway the emotional reaction was not as severe, and in my view, not nearly as debilitating even dangerous elsewhere around the country. Seems to have been an almost inverse linear relation emotion to distance from Ground Zero. The West Coast for the most part remained rational.
And sure enough, a recent NyT poll confirmed that DC and NY are still significantly more fucked up than the rest of us. Quite understandable and quite true. Another story reported survey findings that East Coast children continue to experience a higher incidence of 9-11 post-traumatic stress disorder in children than elsewhere.
Significant cause? - the media and the politicians
Too much hype, too overdone...
Ever watch Jag? I don't much perhaps because each time I tune in, the plot is a WOT variant..boring overdone and probably not for the better
36. Absensia - 9/9/2002 11:50:51 PM
I agree with Jex...here on the west coast it's business as usal, except when you read in the paper about the coast guard beefing up security, or someone being indited for allegedly setting up an al qaeda training camp. The thing I notice most is the flags....on cars, on buildings on homes, flown everywhere and the teeshirts and jewelry.
37. joezan - 9/10/2002 12:08:57 AM
On 9-11 I was teaching a group of about 30 people at work how to administer a new psycho-social screening tool. About 5 minutes into it, our Court Director came in and whispered something to my boss. By the look on his face, I thought at first that she'd told him something terrible had happened to someone in his family. But he didn't get up to run for the phone - just sat there looking extremely worried and confused, obviously deep in thought. I assumed he must have committed some terrible boner - pissed someone off real bad, so I just continued on with my presentation. Maybe 20 minutes later someone else came in and announced that NYC was under attack. I called a break, and a few minutes later, as I was trying to get some news on my office radio my wife called and told me that the first tower had collapsed. She had watched the whole thing from just after the first plane had hit and was very upset, so I stayed on the phone with her for I don't know how long. Then the second tower collapsed.
I knew I had to get home, so that's what I did.
38. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:29:34 AM
Psst. Don't tell anybody, but it looks like bin Laden's gone to the great camel in the sky
39. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:39:00 AM
40. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 12:45:55 AM
Fascinating!
I've suspected he may have been dead for some time new, due to his fragile health.
I was at the computer, I forget in which of the many chatrooms I goto, when somene posted that a plane had hit one of the towers. I thought immediatley of some small private vehicle that had steered off-course. Then I turned on the TV.
My boyfriend was just about to leave for the airport for a trip to Japan. I stopped him in the stairway just in time.
Thanks to the net I was able to contact many friends in New York to learn about what was going on first hand. The phone was impossible. Even for local calls.
All so strange. Especially because the sky was so clear and bright that day. You could see everything.
Ugly, ugly, ugly.
41. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:50:21 AM
I direct rjb's attention to 38. Now, was I right, or was I right?
42. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:56:45 AM
I was at work on 9/11/2001, wage slave that I am. Somebody had a TV on in the hall with ongoing coverage. I believe I first became aware of the disaster just before the second jetliner hit. I was a bit shocked at the total WTC collapse, but that's the way the skyscraper crumbles, I guess.
43. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:59:59 AM
Changes since then? I notice that the LW agitation over 'profiling' has decidedly quieted for the nonce.
44. robertjayb - 9/10/2002 1:14:45 AM
Perhaps...
“I am driven to the interpretation that something is wrong with the upper reaches of al-Qaeda — some sort of disruption. I now believe it is more than likely bin Laden is dead,” he (Yosri Fouda) said.
I'm driven to the interpretation that Mr. Fouda sounds more like a lawyer than a journalist. Sorry, concerned, can't pay you on this.
45. concerned - 9/10/2002 1:33:41 AM
Re. 34 -
Actually, no. I don't have an ideological axe to grind over policy.
46. concerned - 9/10/2002 1:36:52 AM
Probably unfounded prediction: If no notable terrorist incidents during week of 9/11, 75% of Americans will say Homeland Security doing job, 25% will say there is no terrorist threat:)
47. theDiva - 9/10/2002 8:27:09 AM
I wish I lived somewhere that it could be business as usual. I wish I knew kids who weren't traumatized by this event. I wish I didn't personally know half a dozen people who barely escaped with their lives. I wish that nearly a hundred people in and affiliated with my parish weren't slaughtered. Maybe I could be more rational.
In the meantime, take a look at the faces of a few people who were killed by those bastards.
An Army of One Remembers
48. rubberducky - 9/10/2002 9:16:00 AM
i also was at work that day.
rumors at first.
a plane crashed into a building. so what?
the World Trade Center? are you serious? damn, how does that happen?
another plane? in NYC? smacked the other tower? what are you talking about?
NBC is showing the footage. this is really happening... my stomach is tightening, i feel sick. how does this happen? was this an attack?
how could anyone possibly coordinate something like this? if it was coordinated, that's sick but impressive.
the Pentagon was hit too. what's next? how?
all i could do was sit there and glare at the TV. surely someone would come on and say it was all a hoax - you know, like War of the Worlds
i have to get home, fuck, has Ripley heard? i call and he has - he's okay and yes, i'm okay too.
i'm told that i have to leave. all the consultants are being dismissed for the day. as a national telecommunications company, we just can't take the risk - you understand.
in the car, i call Ripley. please come home! i need you. i get home and somehow land on MSNBC and watch my world change forever with the man i love. it helps just a fraction to hold him in horror and curse the bastards to the worst hell i can imagine.
today, i'm still cursing them and hope that there is a God just to give them what the deserve, because nothing we can do to them would ever be enough.
49. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 9:30:44 AM
I didn't know anything was going on until my girlfriend called me from work. She said turn on CNN, there was an explosion at the WTC. I turned on the TV right around the time of the second impact. I stayed on the phone and described to her what was going on.
When the towers collapsed, I couldn't really grasp what was going on. There are times when something is so horrible and unexpected even seeing it doesn't make it seem real. I remember when the towers were being built. They became so much a part of the NY skyline, I couldn't imagine it without them.
I spent the day in a fog watching the coverage. I didn't turn the TV off until late in the night. It took a long time for the impact of the day to really sink in.
For me the epilogue came a couple of months later. I was watching the movie of Godspell. There is some beautiful arial photography of the towers in that film. What hit me was that the second tower was still under construction when the film was made. Seeing the birth of the towers so close to their death brought back the feelings of 9/11.
Grief experts say it takes a year for a person to get back to normal after a tragic loss. It has been a year for the US and it is time for us to put 9/11 behind us. I understand that on the anniversary there has to be something to mark the event. Something to provide closure. On 9/12 this year, we need to put this behind us as a nation and move on. It is time to start looking forward again.
50. judithathome - 9/10/2002 9:36:18 AM
I was having coffee and turning on the computer while watching Good Morning America and it was showing heavy black smoke coming from one of the WTC towers. As Charlie and Diane babbled on, a plane looked like it was flying really close to the second tower and I watched in horror as it crashed into the building. I called my husband and my son and then posted on the Mote...I said "We are war, people" and knew without a doubt it was true before the first tower fell.
51. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 9:46:07 AM
I watched a riveting piece of photojournalism last night on PBS entitled: Afghanistan Year 1380 and I'm sorry, but all this American anger and indignation is utter crap.
Look at what American complacency has been allowing in Afghanistan for twenty five years and tell me this wallow-fest isn't yet more self indulgent exploitation by media and political manipulators. 
What else can we expect from desperate people who only have Allah and their hunger for justice to feed them?
Humanity is doomed if we don't wake up top the fact that it should be: United We Understand
52. theDiva - 9/10/2002 9:56:58 AM
my anger is crap, Wiz?
53. Edmund Dantes - 9/10/2002 9:58:51 AM
Lovely photos.
Which of the hijackers was Afghan again, Whizzo?
54. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 10:05:02 AM
Wiz - What else can we expect from desperate people who only have Allah and their hunger for justice to feed them?
We can expect them to take their anger out on those who are actually responsible for their misery: their own government. The US helped free them from Soviet tyranny. They responded by putting the Taliban in power.
55. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 10:10:39 AM
A very sensible essay by Susan Sontag, that will doubtless be ignored because it's by Susan Sontag.
56. Edmund Dantes - 9/10/2002 10:16:31 AM
By the way, at least one of the photos above (the one with www.rawa.org printed across it) is from the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan. Since you haven't captioned them or indicated a source or meaning, I can only guess at the context. RAWA, however, generally depicts victims of the Taliban's reign.
The Taliban wasn't in power for 25 years, but took over in 1996 (during the Clinton administration), which was just five years before the bombing of the Pentagon and WTC. In between time we also fought a war in Yugoslavia ostensibly to stop genocide, which I assume you must have supported because you have such distate for American "complacency."
Would you have also supported a simultaneous war in Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power? My goodness but Clinton also shot some cruise missiles into tents to at least try to take out Bin Laden. Or would you have preferred bombing and support of the Northern Alliance as the Bush administration later did? What exactly should "complacent" America have done differently between 1996 and 2001?
Used Photoshop to post repetitive cartoons on Web sites to express outrage that such pictures as those above exist?
57. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 10:28:13 AM
Cellar - I don't find Sontag's essay to be as sensible as you do. I see it as an attempt to use the current situation to promote her personal political views. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it should still be viewed for what it is.
I will grant you that the War on Terrorism differs from previous wars in that the enemy is underground and scattered across many nations. It is still being fought with guns and bombs and people are dying as a direct result. That certainly sounds like a real war to me much more so than having the Coast Guard and the Border Patrol sniff out cocaine or creating government agencies to give out money and housing vouchers.
58. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 10:44:05 AM
". . . my anger is crap, Wiz?"
No Diva, your anger is justified, but it should be directed at the self-serving fools, like niner, who ignore their responsibilities to humanity and contribute to the propaganda for self interest, exploitation and war.
As if bombs and mayhem could solve the pestilence of projected hatred on this sad planet.
59. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 11:02:06 AM
In the POV documentary (by a neutral Italian film crew), they showed doctors (with few supplies), trying to treat a little Afghan boy who lost most of his hand and leg as well as a mother who was riddled with shrapnel--all as a result of American intervention.
These images were much more graphic than the two images I used (which were all I could find on the web) and only pointed to the relentless mayhem that causes people to abandon hope and rail out in anger and destruction.
The Sontag link speaks the rational truth, but more importantly, we are all being manipulated and deceived by our government--exactly like we were in Viet Nam. Remember the "Red Scare," well we now have the Al Qaeda Scare and we are just as misguided by fear and paranoia as we were then.
60. concerned - 9/10/2002 11:04:37 AM
Re. 59 -
Is your point that the Taliban should have been left in power?
61. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 11:14:02 AM
No, my point is killing thousands of innocent in the process of hunting and destroying bogeymen isn't a justified, rational alternative for the so called "strongest and most powerful country in history."
62. jexster - 9/10/2002 11:15:27 AM
Narrative: Our Mother of Sorrows offers healing liniment to those suffering from the tragedies of September 11, 2001. Old Spanish and Mexican images of Our Lady of Sorrows as well as the traditional icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help influenced the conception of this icon. The angels of the Perpetual Help icon, as well as their instruments of Christ's crucifixion are replaced by the American and United Airlines planes. The planes symbolize the victims at the Pentagon and Flight 93, as well as both planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. The planes invade the sacred space of the mandorla, the cloud of heavenly radiance that surrounds Mary. Represented by the almond shape and the radiating fiery rings, the mandorla is the intersection of heavenly and earthly realms. The stars of heaven surround Mary, the universal mother, in her sorrowful yet hopeful glance. The old church Slavonic lettering in gold leaf describes Mary as the Theotokos, the Mother of God.
Traditional images of Our Lady of Sorrows depict Mary's heart pierced by swords, symbolic of the seven times her heart was broken by the passion of her Son. Within Mary's embrace the oval which surrounds the World Trade Center symbolizes her sacred heart, but even more so her womb. In this icon, Our Mother embraces all those lost with her enduring love, just as she embraced the Child in her womb. The towers are depicted as they appeared on that bright, sunny morning in early September. The smoke, stylized and sanctified, bears witness to the ultimate sacrifice of so many on September 11.
63. jexster - 9/10/2002 11:32:28 AM
Narrative: On September 11, 2001, thousands of innocent people from many walks of life were murdered by terrorists who attacked the World Trade Center in New York. The first official casualty of that attack was Fr. Mychal Judge, the chaplain of the New York City Fire Department as well as a devout, outspoken and progressive Franciscan priest. He died, struck by debris, while anointing the bodies of a firefighter and a woman who had fallen onto the firefighter from one of the burning towers above.
The word "martyr" derives from the Greek word for witness. Fr. Mychal Judge, a martyr for our times, not only died but also lived bearing witness to God's beneficence and mercy. In his life, he had ministered tirelessly to the firefighters of New York City, to recovering alcoholics, to those suffering from AIDS, to the gay community, to the homeless and to Franciscans preparing to make vows.
The compelling legacy of Fr. Mychal Judge, the joyful Franciscan friar from New York, challenges us to bear witness to God's kindness and mercy in our own lives.
Prayer Card:
A Fireman’s Prayer
When I am called to duty, God,
Whenever flames may rage;
Give me strength to save some life,
Whatever be its age.
Help me embrace a little child
Before it is too late
Or save an older person
From the horror of that fate.
Enable me to be alert
And hear the weakest shout,
And quickly and efficiently
To put the fire out.
I want to fill my calling
And to give the best in me
To guard my every neighbor
And protect his property.
And if, according to my fate,
I am to lose my life,
Please bless with your protecting hand
My children and my wife. Amen.
64. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 11:33:41 AM
J.J. I don't find what you call "her personal political views" to be reserved to herself alone in this instance. I'm quite critical of Sontag, ordinarily. She once showed promise to be the sort of freelance intellectual this country needed. But she pissed it all away in essays that were less about asthetics than they were about fashion. Her politics has been likewise fashion-oriented. And let's not get started on her heavily stage-managed self-dramatization (what I most dislike about her.) But when you're right you're right and in this essay she's absolutely right. The "War on Terrorism" is a power grab -- and the "Patriot Act" it has produced may well undo the Constitution and the Bill of Rights once and for all.
65. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 11:42:45 AM
Wiz - I think there is logical midpoint between the "United we stand" flag wavers and paranoid anti-government types where ultimately the truth lies.
I agree that this administration has gone way overboard in its reaction to 9/11 especially domestically. I disagree with many of Ashcroft's proposals and I think he is trying to set a dangerous precedent. For example the treatment of Dr Hatfill by the FBI goes beyond egregious. Holding prisoners without charges or access to an attorney whether citizens or not is a violation of every principle this country was founded on.
That said, I don't believe Ashcroft and the others in this Adminstration are operating out of malicious or maniacally Machiavellian motives. I think they are responding to the mood in the county as all policians do. They are looking at the political landscape and they are trying to keep their jobs.
When we were attacked on 9/11 the nation responded predictably with fear and panic. Something had to be done. Decisive action had to be taken quickly. For many Americans, security became paramount. If this Administration had not taken strong steps to secure our citizenry, they surely would be voted out at the next election.
When faced with that political reality, any action whether it is the right action or not becomes preferable to no action. In the heat of the moment, it is difficult to know how far to go to be successful and what has to be done to satisfy the American people. And let's be fair. Any potential or perceived weakness by Bush or his people would be hammered on by Democrats in the next election cycle.
66. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 11:43:04 AM
Can you imagine what would have happened if Bush had gotten up before Congress on 9/12 and said, "This is the price we have to pay to live in a free society. With freedom comes risk and these people have paid for our freedom with their lives. We will be taking certain actions to help ensure our security, but we all have to recognize that as long as we are free, we will be vulnerable to attack."
As true and courageous as this statement would have been, it would have been politically disastrous. Most people don't understand the tradeoff between security and freedom, and in the end I think most people would prefer security.
67. Edmund Dantes - 9/10/2002 11:54:20 AM
...all as a result of American intervention.
Before you said American complacency. Intervention or complacency...which troubles you?
We now have the Al Qaeda Scare and we are just as misguided by fear and paranoia as we were then.
Ahem, well, yes we do have the fearful, hysterical, and paranoid among us, but sometimes fear is justified. Do you think Al Qaeda means us any harm?
68. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 11:54:42 AM
If you're not free you're not secure.
69. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 11:55:23 AM
Nice piece by Patrick Goldstein.
70. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 12:12:38 PM
71. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 12:13:22 PM
JJ- your response is as thoughtful as it is generous and well written. I take issue with nothing in it, save one point.
"Security" is a relative term for a fragile rock-ball, spinning through space upon which, ALL it's inhabitants struggle to survive and ultimately perish.
This country, rich and powerful beyond measure, has been partying in its penthouse for half a century, while it has thrown crumbs throughout the ghettoized world as it exploited global resources, human and otherwise, for an even longer period.
Human exploitation and injustice brought us The Civil War; fear and greed brought us The Viet Nam War. It seems shock, paranoia and anger are fueling fires for this one.
If you actually read Sontang and the P.O.V. pieces, with as much insight as you've written the above, you may come to realize we need to seek alternatives to mayhem.
I was in the Tactical Air Command from 1967 to 1973 and my job was to call in air strikes on innocent civilians who merely hid their countrymen from a foreign invader—I know what bombs do. We weren't justified in doing what we did then, nor are we today, in this case . Food for thought, I hope.
72. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 12:15:15 PM
it's=its
73. Ms. No - 9/10/2002 12:16:36 PM
"killing thousands of innocent in the process of hunting and destroying bogeymen"
Not unlike striking out at the innocent who are available since it's far more dramatic and immediately gratifying than working for real change.
How can we have a compassionate government when we as individuals are willing and even self-righteously eager to trample our friends' grief and anger in the name of our own political views?
You cannnot teach compassion with a wildly swinging fist.
74. Edmund Dantes - 9/10/2002 12:30:59 PM
This country, rich and powerful beyond measure, has been partying in its penthouse for half a century, while it has thrown crumbs throughout the ghettoized world as it exploited global resources, human and otherwise, for an even longer period.
American productivity does not impoverish anyone.
The fact that I have something you envy does not give you the right to kill me or destroy what I have.
Simple enough?
75. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 12:34:26 PM
Simple-minded enough is more like it, Mr. Miserable!
76. Edmund Dantes - 9/10/2002 12:37:29 PM
I'm not miserable, but then I'm not wallowing in self-loathing and despisement for my countrymen because of something I participated in 30 years ago.
77. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:37:41 PM
Re. 73 -
I'm interested in Ms. No's specific solutions. This inchoate talk of 'wildly swinging fists' seems intended only to create an atmosphere of unease.
78. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 12:38:19 PM
Edmund - Wiz does have a point. Again there is a midpoint between your position and his. It is true that our productivity doesn't not affect anyone else, but we do use a disproportionate share of the worlds natural and human resources. On the other side, we have the infrastructure to put those resources to good use so we are at least somewhat justified in using them. If the Third World had the appropriate infrastructure it could better exploit its own resources.
79. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 12:39:36 PM
Then you're missing out on all the fun, Edmund. There's nothing like a good wallow.
80. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 12:42:23 PM
"If the Third World had the appropriate infrastructure it could better exploit its own resources."
And who has the keys to the infrastructure?
We do, of course.
And we're not about to give them out to anyone else, or give them a helping hand either. We want them poor and pacified, the better to garb their resources.
And by "we" I am not referring to anything so quaint as the increasingly quasi-mythical "United States of America."
81. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 12:42:41 PM
garb=grab
82. Edmund Dantes - 9/10/2002 12:43:34 PM
We do use a disproportionate share of the worlds natural and human resources.
Do we pay for the resources we use?
More to the point, does being well fed mean a person deserves having to choose between being incinerated alive or plunging 70-odd stories to his death?
83. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 12:51:07 PM
When someone like Sontag writes an article attributing the worst possible motives to the Administration, the goal is ultimately political. If the goal is to have a positive affect on national policy, then positive action must be taken.
Bush, Ashcroft and the rest are first and foremost politicians. If you want to affect their policies, you have to hit them where they live, public opinion. If you attack them personally and attribute motives to them, you become too easy to dismiss. Then you are wasting your time and everyone else's.
The question becomes what can you do to effect a change. Have you written Bush, Ashcroft, Cheney, your Representatives and Senators? If you think your letters aren't read, you are mistaken. Have joined the ACLU and is your membership up to date? Have you gone to their site and signed the petitions they have there?
You need to make your voice heard to the politicians if you expect anything to change. There are protests going on around the county. If you disagree with the Adminstration, then let your voice be heard.
84. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 12:51:25 PM
#76
LOL! Your projections are most revealing, but your wretchedness and despair are self evident in practically every post you make, Miserable.
I'd even guess your sole mission in life is to destract yourself from the utter desolation you chronically feel--an affliction of the heart we may indeed share, but I, at least, love the fool I was—and still am, while you can't even admit to your own feelings—even to yourself—let alone others.
85. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 12:54:25 PM
JJ- Thanks for the open-mindedness of your response.
86. concerned - 9/10/2002 12:54:43 PM
This country, rich and powerful beyond measure, has been partying in its penthouse for half a century, while it has thrown crumbs throughout the ghettoized world as it exploited global resources, human and otherwise, for an even longer period.
The difficulty I see is that there is no economy which has ever achieved the higher ranks of economic status except by means of its own organization and efforts. Conversely, no economy has become successful because of foreign handouts.
It is not the business of any country, including the US, to pretend to guarantee great economic success to every other nation in the world and, failing this, to oppress its own people economically. Who has thrown meaningful 'crumbs' to the US, or almost any of the countries which are now among the more economically successful?
Wrt resources, US energy and mineral consumption is not perceptibly hurting the economic status of any other country in the world. In fact, the opposite is true, because a substantial proportion of export revenues of some of the poorer countries are obtained by selling these goods to Europe, East Asia, the US, etc. Plus, the US is still the breadbasket to the world. How would it help the world if the US deliberately sabotaged its own economy so that we could not even export the 'crumbs' of food which feed so many poorer countries?
87. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 1:01:38 PM
Yes concerned, we must all pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps; suffering builds character and petty envy is the true villain in this catastrophy. The government subsidized food conglomerates should be given more handouts!
88. concerned - 9/10/2002 1:07:13 PM
Re. 87 -
Wow -
So we're supposed to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries in order to pull their bootstraps up? I can hardly think of a surer way to inflame popular sentiment against the US. Or are we supposed to give goodies to every tin pot dictator starving his people but with cronies who want to fill their pockets?
89. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:08:55 PM
90. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:09:39 PM
"So we're supposed to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries in order to pull their bootstraps up?"
So we're supposed to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries by declaring war on them?
91. concerned - 9/10/2002 1:10:21 PM
Oh, and let's be sure to encourage a worldwide sense of grievance and envy against the percieved 'haves'. That really brings out the best in people, doesn't it, as we have seen by 9/11.
92. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:11:27 PM
They get all the "encouragement" they need via the omnipresent Golden Arches.
93. ronski - 9/10/2002 1:12:50 PM
They have raised the terror alert to "orange."
94. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 1:13:44 PM
Cellar - And who has the keys to the infrastructure?
We do, of course.
Actually, no, we don't. The US or the West or whoever you think of as "us" doesn't control who has infrastructure. Any nation is capable of building roads and bridges and buildings. Maybe not as quickly and skillfully as we do, but they aren't restricted by us or any other nation.
Unfortunately many government choose not to do these things. They keep their populations in poverty because they are easier to control that way. Much of the famine in the world (not all I will grant you) is man-made. When aid is sent from the US and other countries, too often it is misused to enrich these same governments.
We are not the cause of all the troubles in the world. We are also not the solution to all the troubles in the world.
95. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 1:13:56 PM
So we're supposed to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries in order to pull their bootstraps up?
You mean like in Chile, Salvador, Panama, Viet Nam, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Turkey, and Pakistan?
96. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:16:31 PM
"Actually, no, we don't. The US or the West or whoever you think of as "us" doesn't control who has infrastructure."
You mean multi-national corporations have no power?
97. Cellar Door - 9/10/2002 1:16:58 PM
Gee they sure did a good job on rigging the last election.
98. judithathome - 9/10/2002 1:20:23 PM
Or are we supposed to give goodies to every tin pot dictator starving his people but with cronies who want to fill their pockets?
Except for the "starving people" part of that post, you are perilously close to describing our leader.
99. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 1:20:59 PM
100. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 1:26:11 PM
Wiz - Yes concerned, we must all pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps; suffering builds character and petty envy is the true villain in this catastrophy.
Well, actually, to a certain extent this is true. There was a motivational speaker I heard on tape many years ago. One of his big things was this quote, "Anything easily gotten is seldom desireable." If you doubt this look at two teenagers who both have their own car. One teenager had a car given to him by his parents, the other worked for two years to buy the car himself. Almost without exception, the boy who bought his own car will take better care of it.
There is another quote that applies. I think it was Mark Twain who said that "if you lift up a dog and make it prosperous it will not bite you. This is the principle difference beteen men and dogs." Some of our most dangerous enemies are regimes we once helped in significant ways. Handouts invariably lead to resentment. As a national policy we have to stop looking at foreign aid as a bandage to slap on the crisis du jour. We have to use foreign aid to effect political change that will ultimate bring economic stability.
101. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 1:32:13 PM
Cellar - You mean multi-national corporations have no power?
I didn't say that, did I? Are you saying that Turkmenistan can't build roads without Exxon-Mobil's permission? What I am saying that a great many undeveloped and underdeveloped nations could do a great deal to help themselves and for politcal reasons choose not to do so. Powell made this point last week regarding I believe Zimbabwe. They are sitting on tons of corn in warehouses which they refuse to distribute.
We will be much more successful helping countries that are already helping themselves.
102. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 1:35:50 PM
You just went flat, JJ. Treating people like dogs, turns them into dogs--lapdogs and pitbulls.
By "helped," you mean: "I'll buy you a Big Mac, but only if you do as I say and not as I do!" That doesn't cut it.
And in the "economic stability" department, America's economic stability trumps all others first and foremost in many of our "helping hands."
103. jexster - 9/10/2002 1:41:46 PM
Trashcroft announces a bump in the Threat Level...I guess Bush needs to induce a little more fear before his UN speech, but Ronksi don't too upset, Big Bad Saddam HAS NOT put a nuke under your bed where da Boogey man lives
Can anyone WITHOUT LOOKING identify in descending order each color code and what it signifies..the Mote Honor System in effect
104. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 1:47:48 PM
Wiz - Treating people like dogs, turns them into dogs--lapdogs and pitbulls.
Nice analogy, but in general we treat our dogs better than we treat other humans.
By "helped" I mean we have given money and support to "the enemy of my enemy" without putting any strings on it. These governments were often as corrupt and contemptible as whoever our enemy was at the time. Then when the political landscape shifted we ended up looking down the barrels of our own guns.
If we are going to pour millions and billions of dollars into a country I think we have the right to demand that they respect some basic human rights and establish some form of civilian government. If they aren't willing to do these things, we can take our money elsewhere, or better yet use it here at home.
105. theDiva - 9/10/2002 1:49:43 PM
Red, orange, yellow, and green. Red is the highest level, and then on down the line. The signals are bumped up or down depending upon threats, chatter among suspected terrorist, etc.
106. jexster - 9/10/2002 1:54:37 PM
We are at Threat Con Delta.....to the Fuerher Bunkers! (Krusty the Klown is already there)
Special care should be taken for psychological health children & Ronski.
Not a doctor and don't play one on the Mote but in interest of public mental health...I prescribe
CARBAMAZEPINE ORAL
SERTRALINE HCL ORAL
PAROXETINE HCL ORAL
107. jexster - 9/10/2002 1:59:18 PM
Editor's Note
With the 1-year anniversary of the September 11 terrorist attacks upon us, we wondered about the impact that these and related developments, like the fall 2001 anthrax outbreaks in the United States and resulting surge of attention to bioterrorism, had on that benchmark of medical communication, the published literature. Our editors, focusing on the topics of posttraumatic stress disorder and bioterrorism, reviewed the literature and selected the following studies as among the most interesting of the hundreds of published pieces to come out of those events. We've provided the MEDLINE abstracts and linked to the full text of the articles where available (please note that some journals require subscription for full-text access). We hope you find these collections useful.
Bill Silberg
Executive Editor
Medscape
108. jexster - 9/10/2002 2:00:56 PM
Diva..I'd love to give you the prize (2 tickets to the next Black Tie & Boots Ball) but I have lost em some where..besides I asked for descriptors..
Don't sweat it though, you won't need to take Zoloft
109. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 2:06:37 PM
Here are the Alert Codes in no particular order:
Code Red - Threat detected from the American Communist Party
Code Yellow - Threat detected from Asian-Americans
Code Brown - Threat detected from Hispanic-Americans
Code Black - Threat detected from African-Americans
Code White - Threat detected from the Aryan-American
Code Blue - Treat detected from Senior-Americans
Code Green - Threat detected from Amphibian-Americans
Code Orange - Threat detected from Floridians and/or Californians
Code Pink - Threat detected from Martha Stewart and/or Laura Ashley
Code Purple -Threat detected from Osama Bin Barney
Code Red, White and Blue - Threat detected from our own government
110. theDiva - 9/10/2002 2:09:35 PM
jex
aw, nertz. Pass the prozac.
111. JJBiener - 9/10/2002 2:10:13 PM
Alternate Code Red, White and Blue - Threat detected from flag waving yahoos
112. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 2:16:52 PM
Message # 54: "We can expect them to take their anger out on those who are actually responsible for their misery: their own government. The US helped free them from Soviet tyranny. They responded by putting the Taliban in power."
Afghans did not put the Taliban in power; the Taliban forced themselves on Afghans, with the collaboration of Pakistan, to which the USA gave carte blanche; and the Taliban's coming to power was not a response to the USA, although it was a response to the anarchy and civil disorder that the USA helped create in Afghanistan.
(1) During the anti-Soviet war, the USA supported the most radical Islamist anti-Soviet resistance groups, instead of the nationalist and royalist ones.
(2) After the withdrawl of Soviet forces, the USA pushed for continuing with the war against the Soviet-supported government, instead of seeking a negotiated solution which might have prevented a civil war.
(3) Sure enough, after the government was overthrown, a civil war ensued, pushed by a radical faction which had been America's favourites in the 1980s.
I am not one of those left-wing commentators who blame the Taliban on the USA, but those who think the USA is scott-free for the state Afghanistan found itself in in 2001, are equally full of shit.
113. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 2:21:47 PM
Message # 78: "If the Third World had the appropriate infrastructure it could better exploit its own resources."
The Third World, for the most part, does exploit its own resources. It's only sub-Saharan African countries which lack the ability to do such work by themselves and must rely completely on foreign multinationals, from exploration to exportation. Most other countries invite foreign multinationals in order to get the latest western technology cheaply, and some don't even do that now.
114. jonesatlaw - 9/10/2002 10:37:37 PM
I think the "new normal" is double-plus good!
115. judithathome - 9/10/2002 10:43:12 PM
I've missed you wit, Jonesatlaw.
116. judithathome - 9/10/2002 10:43:39 PM
and YOUR wit...
117. jonesatlaw - 9/10/2002 10:53:37 PM
With no disrespect to those lost in the terror attacks of 9/11/02, and to those heroic everyman/everywoman who reached out to one another in the best of the American character that day to help their fellows; the anniversary and the effect of the day have been overblown.
There can be no more significant event to the people who died in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania; their loved ones; and those who survived the attacks; but to our nation, the events have become a distraction. Comparisons were made to Pearl Harbor, but aside from the horror, 9-11 is a small thing. After Pearl Harbor, we found ourselves at war with an enemy who was numerically superior to our remaining forces, with comaparable quality in men and technology. Further, the Japanese had attacked throughout the region, including Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Phillipines.
Are we militarily weaker now than we were after the 9-11 attacks? I think you would be hard pressed to make that case. Are we in as dangerous a situation geo-politically as we were in 1941? No. Not by an order of magnitude.
The sad thing is that Bush has switched to Iraq as the target, because he failed with Bin Ladin, Afganistan is shakey and he has never wanted to "nation build" and he has milked all the political capital he can from 9-11. He needs something to distract us from Cheney's history, the GOP's cozy history with the folks now doing perp walks, and the shitty state of the economy compared to when Big Bad Bill was running the show.
118. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/10/2002 11:04:07 PM
Things We Lost in the Fire
by Alisa Solomon
119. concerned - 9/11/2002 1:16:30 AM
The sad thing is that Bush has switched to Iraq as the target, because he failed with Bin Ladin, Afganistan is shakey..., blah blah blah
You consider that Bush failed because he didn't bring bin Laden's head on a pike back to DC? How ridiculous. The man's dead, and the public uncertainty over his whereabouts in the Mideast has hamstrung Al Qaeda since December of last year. That is anything but a failure on the part of the US.
You say 'Afganistan'(sic) is 'shakey'(sic)? Talk about unrealistic expectations. Even if the Afghanis have not been suddenly transmuted to sheep, an apparent requirement of yours, what the Bush administration has accomplished is a damned sight better than the WH Rapist or Bore ever has done or could have accomplished under the same circumstances.
120. theDiva - 9/11/2002 8:21:46 AM
121. thoughtful - 9/11/2002 8:25:16 AM
A sad day indeed...
122. Edmund Dantes - 9/11/2002 9:20:36 AM
#84: You forgot to say you'll "pray for me," as in the cartoon you posted earlier. Talk about projection....
#117: Pearl Harbor was an attack on an island thousands of miles off the coast of the US (Hawaii wasn't yet a state) and on a military installation. Moreover, the capability for the mass media to make Americans aware of the events wasn't as great and Americans had to know war was coming eventually. September 11 was much more a bolt out of the blue. As far as the relative dangers, the capacity of the Japanese to inflict damage on the American homeland or actually invade and conquer the US was not realistically greater than that of the Islamists.
Your statement that the "effect has been overblown" is, of course, purely personal. The effect is what it is.
The sad thing is that Bush has switched to Iraq as the target, because he failed with Bin Ladin.
Your unsupportable assertion--you have no way of knowing whether Bin Laden is alive--is also not accurate as to the President's motivation IMO. You cannot read the president's mind, nor can I, but your suggested cause is highly unlikely. Most of the people in the administration who now want to go after Saddam already wanted to go after Saddam. September 11 strengthened their hand by showing the US wasn't as invulnerable as perceived and by giving the "War Party" more voice and power, but you have no evidence that (mythical) frustration in Afghanistan led to a desire to try Iraq next.
123. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/11/2002 9:37:12 AM
Mr- Miserable- You forgot to say you'll "pray for me,"
A) I don't pray and B) even if I did, I wouldn't bother for a pathetic wretch like you.
124. Edmund Dantes - 9/11/2002 9:41:57 AM
You'd pray for all the happy, go-lucky people instead?
125. JJBiener - 9/11/2002 9:49:10 AM
Jones - He needs something to distract us from Cheney's history
Cheney's history? Are you talking about that obscure bit of accounting that Democrats tried to pass off as a scandal? Really, can't you tell when policians are trying win votes by generating scandals out of thin air? It has happened so many times over the last 30 years I would think you could recognize it by now.
the GOP's cozy history with the folks now doing perp walks
Perhaps you should check out the cozy history between these people and Clinton's Commerce Department. You should also look at the contributions they made to Democratic candidates and the DNC. Everyone's palms were well greased.
and the shitty state of the economy compared to when Big Bad Bill was running the show.
This is really too much. It hasn't dawned on you that Big Bad Bill's supposedly great economy was nothing but an Internet bubble and some accounting tricks? Big Bad Bill's economy was built on quicksand and predictably it sank.
126. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 10:11:57 AM
No, J.J. We're talking about Cheney's business dealing with Saddam.
127. Wombat - 9/11/2002 10:16:08 AM
A year ago, I was where I am now looking on in shock as the WTC burned, while listening to rumors that there had been an explosion on the Mall (a few blocks from where I work in DC) and that the subway had been closed. Once I got home, three+ hours later (the subway had not been closed, after all, and I could have gotten home in 45 minutes) we sat around at a friend's house watching the coverage on TV with our kids running around enjoying their abbreviated school day. My parents live in lower Manhattan, so we were trying to reach them on the phone all day (finally got through around 7 PM). They had not been aware that anything had happened until around 11 AM, when my dad went out for the newspaper and saw people staring down 6th Avenue at the columns of smoke where the WTC was.
128. judithathome - 9/11/2002 10:16:50 AM
Really, can't you tell when policians are trying win votes by generating scandals out of thin air? It has happened so many times over the last 30 years I would think you could recognize it by now.
Yeah, we did. It was called Clintongate.
129. judithathome - 9/11/2002 10:23:02 AM
I wish Marjorie were around to share his photos from that day...
This is a day that should used for remembering and being thankful for all who are safe and still in our lives. I think the media is doing a bit too much and it feels like typical overexuberance on their part, almost like they are more concerned with ratings points than with anything. After awhile, despite some moments of genuine feeling, one starts to feel beaten down by all we're supposed to be feeling.
130. Edmund Dantes - 9/11/2002 10:23:28 AM
It was called Clintongate.
By whom?
131. judithathome - 9/11/2002 10:25:56 AM
The usual suspects.
132. judithathome - 9/11/2002 10:27:50 AM
Look, I tried to change the subject...I'm sorry I rose to the bait and made a snarky response, okay?
I don't think this thread was meant to be a bunch of back and forth on left vs. right.
133. Wombat - 9/11/2002 10:42:21 AM
9/11-related peeves:
The "Wall of Heroes" at Ground Zero. There is nothing heroic about being killed while sitting at one's desk, sweeping floors, setting tables, or trying to escape from a burning building. This cheapens the heroism showed by those who went into the WTC and Pentagon to try and rescue the victims. Wall of Victims, please.
The song "Proud to be an American." I am proud to be an American because at least I know I am free? That's the best the writers could manage? An utterly banal song that gets worse with each listening. I am proud to be a brown pelican because at least I can eat fish...
John Ashcroft.
Patriotic Kitsch, which has by now overwhelmed whatever sincere patriotic sentiments that made me reflect on why I am "proud to be an American."
134. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 10:43:00 AM
Everythigis a bunch of back and forth on left vs. right.
135. Edmund Dantes - 9/11/2002 10:52:27 AM
I don't think this thread was meant to be a bunch of back and forth on left vs. right.
No, apparently the "blame America first crowd" believes it should be a thread in which they post their usual unsupportable blather without recrimination, take political potshots without retaliation, and practice their rote "feelings"-based propaganda. Posts 127 and 129 are IMO what the thread should be about, but I don't intend to let the distortions of posts such as 51 go without response.
136. JJBiener - 9/11/2002 10:52:44 AM
Judith - I don't think this thread was meant to be a bunch of back and forth on left vs. right.
That is why I referred to the last 30 years so as to include misbehavior on both sides. There are plenty of examples across the political spectrum and it continues to this day unabated. Sometimes our political debate in this country reminds me of the pie fight in the move The Great Race.
137. Edmund Dantes - 9/11/2002 10:54:45 AM
The song "Proud to be an American." I am proud to be an American because at least I know I am free? That's the best the writers could manage? An utterly banal song that gets worse with each listening.
Agreed, especially because even before September 11 Lee Greenwood was using it to perpetuate an utterly mediocre career.
138. Edmund Dantes - 9/11/2002 11:46:31 AM
Saudi Arabian Press Release on anniversary of WTC attacks
139. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/11/2002 11:49:27 AM
"blame America first crowd"
I love this country and its people, but I'm ashamed of my government and the fanatical zealots who usurped and now control it.
Not taking responsibility for destroying innocents in illegal bombardments is not "blaming America," it's the same kind of "recrimination" that Mr. Miserable feels he has the right to voice.
Whether in NYC/DC/PA, in Viet Nam or in Kabul, evil villainy is still that—regardless of the dogmatic rationalizations behind it.
Gangsters don't like it when you call a spade a spade.
140. Edmund Dantes - 9/11/2002 12:09:56 PM
Wizzo, now:
I love this country...
Wizzo, earlier:
This country, rich and powerful beyond measure, has been partying in its penthouse for half a century, while it has thrown crumbs throughout the ghettoized world as it exploited global resources, human and otherwise, for an even longer period.
Whisper some more sweet nothings to demonstrate your affection, lover.
I'm ashamed of my government and the fanatical zealots who usurped and now control it.
Well, judging by the things you're ashamed of--mostly that you personally bombed villagers is what you ought to be ashamed of and leave the shame of a government that you don't support to Les Miserables like me--you haven't been happy with the government for around 35 years. So it doesn't really have anything to do with "usurpation"--unless you think such usurpation goes back a long time. In which case, do you think the American people are in no way responsible for their government--and haven't been since the Kennedy administration?
If that is the case, then why did you earlier imply that somehow we deserved what happened to "us"? We're no more deserving of our fate than the children of Iraq, right?
141. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/11/2002 12:23:06 PM
You hate real good, Miserable, just like your masters, but if you had any shame, you'd be mortified by the absurd assumptions in your post.
Well, now I'm embarrassed for you, so I'll apologize for vexing you so deeply and leave it there.
142. Edmund Dantes - 9/11/2002 12:33:08 PM
Good. You seem to think best in images rather than words, so how about some more wonderful cartoons?
143. ronski - 9/11/2002 12:49:01 PM
144. jonesatlaw - 9/11/2002 1:03:58 PM
I'll take the debate to Iraq or Politics. The effect of 9-11 that I noticed was a greater appreciation for the noble and heroic in the common man and woman. Not only the firemen and police, but the iron workers, the medical people, sanitation guys and utility company guys who decended on the WTC area to help out. The breaking down of the barriers that keep some of us "others" and the rise of "united we stand." I hope those are the legacies of 9-11.
145. theDiva - 9/11/2002 1:18:13 PM
and your wife. Didn't she go, too?
146. glendajean - 9/11/2002 1:18:34 PM
Ronski -- Leon W. at the New Republic has an entire essay on another photograph, the AP shot of the man falling out of the sky head first, his one leg bent, the other straight. It is a horrific moment.
Particularly since I've seen the video of the people on the upper floors waving from the broken windows, screaming and jumping, I cannot watch film or video of the burning or falling buildings.
I watched a bit of the ceremony this morning. When I heard that Governor Pataki was going to read the Gettysburg address, I first thought that it was a weak choice. I was wrong. Lincoln's words are still very powerful and appropriate for such a moment of grief.
When he originally gave it, he followed a fellow who orated for about an hour (Edward Hale Everett?). I always have to smile when Lincoln gives the line about in the future few remembering what was said on that day, given that he had just sat through that long speech.
147. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 1:26:10 PM
That's right Edmund. Anyone who dares say one critical word about this government is obviously a FIFTH COLUMNIST WORKING FOR AL QUEDA!!!!!!
ASHCROFT HASN'T GONE FAR ENOUGHT! ANYONE WHO HAS EVER HAD ANYTHING BAD TO SAY ABOUT AMERICA MUST BE ROUNDED UP AND SHOT ON SIGHT!!!!!
148. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 1:27:13 PM
Have you killed a Liberal today?
It's the AMERICAN thing to do, you know.
149. OhioSTOPAS - 9/11/2002 1:44:29 PM
!!!?
Cellar Door = Ann Coulter?
150. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 1:54:54 PM
Just my Ann Coulter impression.
BTW, Sepember 11th is also the anniversary of the CIA-sponsored overthrow of the Legally elected Allende government in Chile and the installation of the military dictatorship of Auguston Pinochet. Allende was murdered in cold blood, and thousands of Chileans "disappeared" thanks to the efforts of the Good Ol' U.S. of A.
But then, you knew that, right?
151. JJBiener - 9/11/2002 1:55:29 PM
Cellar - Anyone who dares say one critical word about this government is obviously a FIFTH COLUMNIST WORKING FOR AL QUEDA!!!!!!
Really? Who are the other four?
Have you killed a Liberal today?
Liberals aren't in season. If you shoot one now, you will face a hefty fine and possibly lose your hunting license.
152. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/11/2002 1:56:28 PM
153. thoughtful - 9/11/2002 2:24:31 PM
My idea of what they should do with area where the WTC once stood...Have spaced at random around the perimeter of the area life size sculptures representing the people who worked and died there going about their business ... a policeman, a busboy, a bond trader, a secretary, a tourist, a mail carrier, and representing the people from all the various nations who lost someone there as well. To me, this is about the ordinary people in pursuit of their ordinary daily activities who were mercilessly killed. They are the ones that should be remembered.
That way the area can go on being a center of commerce as is so much New York's way, and yet never be forgotten as the site of a terrible tragedy. Yes, build their reflecting pool and memorial park, but help those of us who remember and those in the future to whom it will be new, understand the scope and scale of the tragedy, and its very real, very human element.
154. theDiva - 9/11/2002 2:26:01 PM
nice. I like it.
155. jonesatlaw - 9/11/2002 2:36:38 PM
My wife went to NYC with the Red Cross. She did mental health work at the Pier with victims families, workers and responders. She was scared sh*%less to go at first, wondering if she could really help these people.
She spent two weeks there, working 12 hour shifts. She had a friend and former co-worker with her, and they debriefed and decompressed each other daily. It was an extrodinary time, as my wife's impression of New Yorkers is that they are some of the bravest and kindest people she's ever met. I am not surprised by the first, but you have to admit that the second is not a characteristic commonly associated with New Yorkers.
She went on one of the first trips to ground zero with victims families, and had to concentrate on watching people for signs they needed help. She said it was difficult to do because the surroundings were so overwhelming. She helped a man attach a small bouquet of flowers to one of the beams that had become a memorial with the elastic strap that held his facemask on. She found a hand puppet in the teddy bears and stuffed animals that the Oklahoma City victims had sent to New York, and ran around getting people to talk to her. Most of the time, she could just sit next to someone and ask if they lost someone or their home or their job, and the stories would flow. Others just couldn't open up, but might when she talked to them through the puppet. Other therapists complimented her on being so good with the puppet, forgetting that she usually does child therapy.
156. theDiva - 9/11/2002 2:46:31 PM
Marvelous. What a beautiful, selfless woman. Thank you for posting about her.
157. jonesatlaw - 9/11/2002 2:48:05 PM
She spent two weeks there, while things were still uncertain as to what attacks could come next. About a week before she went, I came back from a hearing in a neighboring county, and saw a convoy of black Chevy Suburbans with FBI agents and Secret Service guys with Uzi's at the ready, speeding south to Offutt. Air Force One flew overhead as the AP's and Sheriff's and State Patrol sealed off the base at a two mile perimeter.
I grew up in the cold war and expected that if I ever saw anything remotely like that, I'd be vapor soon after. I was afraid for Mrs. Atlaw to go to NYC because things were so uncertain, but encoraged her to go because it was the hard, but right thing to do. Just as her father had gone to Midway in World War II, just as my father and uncles and grandfathers had done when the country needed them.
I could not be prouder of her. Just as so many others, she answered the call when other people needed her. Her answer to terror was to reject fear and conquer it with bravery, compassion and duty. She was in good company, and they have challenged us all to follow their example.
158. wabbit - 9/11/2002 2:59:33 PM
It is one thing to talk about doing something to help, and another to actually follow through. Brava for your wife, jonesatlaw.
159. thoughtful - 9/11/2002 2:59:39 PM
Jones, you should be proud of her. Not easy work, but oh, so necessary. Not all wounds are visible...the ones on the inside can be the hardest to heal.
160. thoughtful - 9/11/2002 3:03:24 PM
Article in the nyt the other day about a woman injured 9/11 who is still in the hospital a year later...her legs were crushed by falling debris and she is in constant pain. Very sad.
Then there is the story of one of those listed as missing who turned up...he has had amnesia since the event and they finally found him.
161. theDiva - 9/11/2002 3:03:53 PM
And to Jonesie for being brave enough to let her follow her heart.
162. jonesatlaw - 9/11/2002 3:22:54 PM
Thoughtful, Diva, Wabbit, thank you.
The role reversal has been instructive. I have a new appreciation for military wives and mothers etc. You're right, there is a bravery there too, one that I did not appreciate before.
163. robertjayb - 9/11/2002 3:33:28 PM
Hug that woman for us, Jones.
164. theDiva - 9/11/2002 3:45:49 PM
well, what you're doing is sharing her with the world. That's a very powerful and selfless act of love. What you are both teaching your children with this...it's precious beyond measure.
165. robertjayb - 9/11/2002 3:52:11 PM
Jones-at-law,
Living in the shadow of Offutt must have been (ahem) interesting. Consulting the wayback machine, I recall visiting the command post there while detailed as a junior escort officer for a group of minor wheels who were being given "a first-hand look at America's aerospace defenses."
Not as spectacular as the Cheyenne Mountain NORAD Hq or the command post at North Bay, Ontario (also in a mountain), but they all had the same capability (i.e., to fight WWIII).
But I digress. How's your pilot training going?
166. OhioSTOPAS - 9/11/2002 3:57:10 PM
Bravo to Mrs. Jonesatlaw! (And to the man behind the woman, too.)
167. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 4:03:30 PM
YES!
168. wabbit - 9/11/2002 5:30:49 PM
And thank god for Diva's eloquence.
Barring any further nitpicking from the pinheads at the consulate, my in-laws should arrive the end of next week. I want to take them to NYC for a couple days. They are virgin international travellers and know only what they see on tv or hear from insulated visitors. I think the friendliness of people here will stun them.
I want to see the WTC site again...I was there in November and aside from the devastation, what I remember most vividly is the smell. It was days before that smell wore away. I cannot imagine what it was like the first few weeks.
169. marjoribanks - 9/11/2002 5:34:41 PM
Wabbit,
I can give you several notes on places to take desis, particularly FOB desis, in NYC on a first visit. How utterly charming for them, by the way, that you'll be their guide.
(First Note: I expect that you already know what desi and FOB mean. If not, ask yer mate.)
170. marjoribanks - 9/11/2002 5:37:39 PM
BTW, I don't think the friendliness of NYC people is likely to "stun" overseas visitors, particularly those from india. Yes, NYC does not deserve its reputation for churlishness, but that's about it.
You want to be shocked by the utmost level of hospitality - travel in huge swathes of the developing world, say the Middle East, or Central or South Asia.
171. marjoribanks - 9/11/2002 5:41:35 PM
On a more on-topic note, I am grateful to the Mote and Motards one year after watching those buildings crumble. At a time of real panic, I looked for company and a zone to vent my fears and found both among friends here.
Won't forget that very easily.
172. alistairconnor - 9/11/2002 5:42:08 PM
I just watched the Nadeau brothers' film about the NY firefighters. Quite an impressive document. Very intimate.
173. wabbit - 9/11/2002 6:00:37 PM
Hey Banks,
Any recommendations you can make would be most appreciated. Not know what Desi and FOB are? Surely you jest! One of these days I'll even be conversant in Hindi.
You do know that it is not legal to sit too close to one's mate on park benches in Mumbai? These are people who have never been out of India and have never heard a good word about the US until the misfortune of me entered their lives. I think they are hoping that I don't turn out to be a complete horror. After all, I am not Hindu (or of any recognizable caste), not even Indian, older than Spunky and there will be no children. That last point alone is enough to bring down all the wrath of Indra upon me. I don't expect them to find me at all charming. On the other hand, I am the cash cow of the family, so maybe things won't be so bad.
174. wabbit - 9/11/2002 6:04:14 PM
Alistair,
That film was on tv here several months ago. It was impressive indeed.
175. wabbit - 9/11/2002 6:09:09 PM
btw, Banks, you may have missed it, but there was a request upthread for some of your WTC photos. I remember one particularly, a reflection of the towers. If you have them handy, please would you post them?
176. alistairconnor - 9/11/2002 6:09:27 PM
I love New York.
I know, it sounds corny. The French love to hate Americans who gush, "I love Paris". We're wrong. Paris is theirs too. And New York is ours.
I've been there twice, but how does that affect my understanding of what New York is? Barely. Brief and superficial visits add detail and texture, but there are no surprises. New York is a cultural icon, perhaps the most talked-about, written-about, filmed place on earth. Every literate person on earth carries New York within them.
Part of the definition of terrorism is its indifference for its victims : the end is supposed to justify the means. But what end? Here is an act of meta-terrorism : the symbolic power of the act itself, would appear to be the end sought after. Obscurantism strikes against -- what? Against America? No, too simple. Against New York; against a certain idea of civilization : truth, beauty, creativity, freedom.
177. marjoribanks - 9/11/2002 6:56:24 PM
178. marjoribanks - 9/11/2002 6:57:40 PM
179. marjoribanks - 9/11/2002 6:58:35 PM
180. robertjayb - 9/11/2002 7:03:30 PM
Today's bartcop is a long pre-Nine-Eleven reminiscence of Mr. and Mrs. Bartcop's (These are the Tulsa, Oklahoma, Bartcops) 1991 visit to New York City. Known primarily as an online polemicist, Bart has diverse interests, including but not limited to art, food, music, and fine liquor. There are some nice photographs and just a few, very few, jibes at the forces of darkness.
As a rustic remembering my brief times in NYC, I enjoyed it very much and if I get back there I want to hit some of Bartcop's spots.
Alistair is correct about the city belonging to all of us or at least part of us belonging to it. Otherwise, how did a Texas farmboy happen to be subscribing TheNew Yorker?
I do love New York, as do lots of us out here in flyover country, but I'm determined to avoid the Nine-Eleven mini-series.
181. RickNelson - 9/11/2002 7:21:54 PM
Dear Marj,
Thanks for those photos.
Todays news has been very special. While I achieved small success' today, that's fine with me.
Though I would have felt better to have been among others today, I show up here, read Marj, and there is connection.
The saddness is still poignant to me when watching these images. Hearing the stories, desiring to be there and tell them, "thank you for serving the victims", or hugging someone to let them know They're cared about. There were so many stories told these two days.
The stories of stranded airline passengers during the Sept., 11 tragedy are of the best of human kind. I saw some passengers stranded in Canada taken in by locals. Given shelter, food and phones. Kids trying to comfort the tired and uncomfortable passengers. It was moving.
The ceremonies abound today. Watching the President shake hands, hug, kiss and give autographs all day is a sort of balm today. Thank you Mister President.
There was... is so much saddness.
182. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 9:00:36 PM
183. Cellar Door - 9/11/2002 9:04:44 PM
"Call Ashcroft and have him throw these bastards in prison!"
184. arkymalarky - 9/11/2002 9:57:17 PM
Very nice posts in here today, and I love Marj's pictures.
It was wonderful reading about your wife, Jones. It must be very rewarding for you both to know that there are people who will remember her all their lives for the help she gave them.
185. judithathome - 9/11/2002 10:34:15 PM
Thanks for the art, Marj.
186. ronski - 9/11/2002 11:30:46 PM
alistair,
Thank you. Your words have brought a little more moisture to my eyes, which have been misty all day.
Tears take toxins away from the body.
This is so that we can go on.
187. concerned - 9/12/2002 1:53:08 AM
Protect America: stop marrying terrorists!
excerpted:
Even after Chawki Hammoud's arrest, Fortune refused to consider any plea bargains because she didn't want to testify against him. Her lawyer cast Fortune as a "naive" victim. But in the shadow of the September 11 attacks, common-sense jurors were in no mood to shed tears for a terrorist enabler. Fortune was convicted of marriage fraud in October 2001.
Meanwhile, Fortune's brother-in-law, Mohammed Hammoud, married three different American women. After arriving in the United States on a counterfeit visa, being ordered deported and filing an appeal, he wed Sabina Edwards to gain a green card. INS officials refused to award him legal status after this first marriage was deemed bogus in 1994.
Undaunted, he married Jessica Wedel in May 1997, and while still wed to her, paid Angela Tsioumas (already married to someone else, too) to marry him in Detroit. The Tsioumas union netted Mohammed Hammoud temporary legal residence and quick bucks for Tsioumas. According to federal authorities, she bragged to others that she would "marry any of them for the right price."
Tsioumas entered a plea agreement in March 2002 on charges of conspiracy. Her "husband" was convicted on 16 counts that included providing material support to Hezbollah.
It seems to me that this is the stuff of soap operas. Perhaps something like: 'As the WTC Burns'
188. theDiva - 9/12/2002 7:52:37 AM
#168
wow, thanks, Wabbit.
And thank you for those pictures, Banks.
You know, until I moved to the Princeton area and then, of course, down here, I never lived anywhere that I couldn't walk a block or two, or peep around the corner, and see those towers. They opened when I was about 11, and I remember the accompanying buzz. I took the PATH trains into town frequently, and came up into the towers.
Even now, when I see the skyline without them, it feels like a bad dream. The photos look as though they've been doctored. A big, gaping hole.
We had a special mass last night, and I sang. To stand up in the choir loft, and watch the pain and sorrow on my neighbor's faces...indescribable. They read the roll of victims' names, associated with our parish, as we placed red roses at the altar. One parishioner, whose husband was killed, made her way to the altar with great difficulty. Honestly, I know I couldn't even stand up were I in her place. God love Father Hoyos, he came down and enveloped her in a hug. It was very, very moving.
What an evening.
189. msivorytower - 9/12/2002 8:14:11 AM
I'm glad this thread is still up today, I couldn't bring myself to talk much yesterday.
I was surprised at how emotional I still was over the events last year. I mean, I cried for days after it happened, and was compulsively glued to the news for weeks, but I really didn't expect to feel some of the same despair yesterday.
I've not watched anything about the day this entire year and then yesterday I was compulsively glued to the media again. I watched Peter Jennings most of last night, he was the only anchor I could tolerate last year, and I found him equally calming and compelling last night.
AC
I adore New York. I love all big cities, generally, but I simply love NYC. Your tribute captured my feelings exactly.
Marj
Really tremendous pictures. Thanks for them.
By the way, has anyone heard from Irving? Americans in Indonesia were supposed to be on high alert yesterday, and he was never far from my thoughts through the day.
190. TabouliJones - 9/12/2002 8:50:19 AM
MsIt,
Last I heard Irving was planning a move to Toronto to finish his doctorate and to take a teaching gig. According to his original plans he planned to be in Toronto as of August. Don't know if his plans have changed, but I think he frequents Random International if you want to check to see how he and his family are doing.
191. Edmund Dantes - 9/12/2002 11:59:29 AM
192. judithathome - 9/12/2002 12:12:45 PM
You know, that sounds just like an Urban Legend...but it has to be true; it wa on CNN.
193. wabbit - 9/12/2002 12:24:04 PM
I bet a lot of people played that number, too.
Banks, thanks for the photos, and you got exactly the one I was remembering. They are beautiful. I have an update of sorts on my inlaws, but will post in the Good Life.
194. Cellar Door - 9/12/2002 12:27:30 PM
"The spectacle appears at once as society itself, as a part of society and as a means of unification. As a part of society, it is that sector where all attention, all consciousness, converges. Being isolated -- and precisely for that reason -- this sector is the locus of illusion and false consciousness; the unitly it imposes is merely the offical language of generalized separation.
The spectacle is not a collection of images; rather, it is a social relationship between people that is mediated by images."
-- Guy Debord, 1967
195. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2002 12:58:56 PM
When it comes to texts I have a simple rule of thumb. If I read a text, not once but several times, and don't understand it, the most likely reason, not the only possible one, but the most likely one is that there is nothing there to understand.
Debord's text is a case in point. I remember the late 60s and the early 70s when the art crictics, in particular the litcrits, could turn out stuff like that in unlimited quantities to the despair of the ones they tried to reach. I could do a passable pastich myself but now I have forgotten how and that is as well.
196. Cellar Door - 9/12/2002 2:15:44 PM
"If I read a text, not once but several times, and don't understand it, the most likely reason, not the only possible one, but the most likely one is that there is nothing there to understand."
Or maybe you're just stupid.
197. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2002 2:41:34 PM
Cellar
Reply in Literature.
198. Cellar Door - 9/13/2002 1:55:31 PM
199. wabbit - 9/13/2002 3:25:58 PM
I spent a lot of time at the WTC several years ago, and when I was in NY last November, I too went to see the area. I didn't feel like a tourist, I felt like part of my heart had been ripped out. But there were plenty of tourists there, smiling and taking photos. I took Spunky up the Empire State Building and found that I was the only person up there (out of the 20 or so who were there) who knew where the towers had been. One couple we met was taking photos before venturing to the site. They had been to Oklahoma City the year before and said the memorial was very moving. They seemed to be doing a tragedy tour. These people were very upsetting to me and I don't live there, like the themepark site creator does. He does a good job encapsulating my feelings about the whole aura of the site.
200. joezan - 9/13/2002 9:53:10 PM
Our 10 y.o. daughter made her first NY trip this past July, and my brother took her up to the ESB observation deck where she snapped some absolutely beautiful shots. It was a rare NY July day - no humidity, deep blue sky, and you could see for ever. In fact, she even tried to take a shot of the Jones Beach light house, which they could see clear as a bell, but which, unfortunately, didn't show up when the shot was developed.
Anyway, I asked her if she knew where the Twin Towers used to be (she also had a couple of excellent shots of the hole in the skyline).
"Nah - I didn't even think about it, it was so beautiful up there", she replied.
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