38. arkymalarky - 9/27/1999 6:22:08 PM
Crap. Try again. now?
39. phillipdavid - 9/27/1999 10:49:35 PM
Thanks for the diary thread, Arky. I plan to give an abbreviated, but fairly precise account of my time in school, and I'm anxious to look back on it in a few weeks to get some perspective. We all need a little distance to gain perspective sometimes, and maybe this diary will allow others to get a fresh perspective on an 8th grade Language Arts/U.S. History/Literature/Speech teacher's work life.
40. moonflower - 9/27/1999 10:57:54 PM
Sometimes I wonder why so many academics are generally dissatisfied and ego-bound. I suppose it's true of any profession, but academics often seem to people worth running away from. It's not the teaching, really; it's the clashing of hate egos in the faculty. One teacher I know when asked why academics fight so fiercely said "It's because the stakes are so small."
41. SpenceMirrlees - 9/27/1999 11:29:38 PM
I have noticed a relationship between the existence of an agreed upon standard of good work in an academic field and the extent of the contumely exchanged among its practitioners.
Not nearly a perfect relationship, but a relationship. There was that whole David Baltimore fracas -- that got pretty vituperative, and that's biology and biochemistry. Feynman and Gell-Mann were definitely rivals at Caltech, but Gell-Mann is rivals with everyone.
In that sort of case I think the egos get involved because the people involved have always been the smartest and best no matter where they went. The attitude that they should be both helped them get where they are, and is reinforced by continued success.
But, when a universal standard of good work is lacking in a discipline, tenure cases get very bitter because it's hard to say whether it's deserved. As a result the opposing sides stake out a position, and for strategic purposes increase the volume of their claims because they can never convince the other side about their substance.
Particular departments also take on a particular brand, which leads to deep struggles during times of change, as well as much sniping between members of the many different camps.
I have heard "because the stakes are so small," which I guess is supposed to be a joke, but doesn't really ring true. Academics don't exactly consider the stakes small. And in many cases they really aren't -- a valued colleague's, or one's own, job may be on the line. Moreover, plenty of occupations have very small stakes yet are not characterized by the squabbling of academia.
42. SpenceMirrlees - 9/27/1999 11:30:49 PM
(I presume you didn't mean "academics" to mean primary and secondary teachers, but maybe that's wrong.)
43. arkymalarky - 9/28/1999 8:27:05 AM
Hmm. I've always had a good working relationship with my peers, but have heard many stories to the contrary, both in other districts and within my own. I do think that where there is a problem ego often plays a part, and that bugs me from the gitgo for teachers to focus on themselves and the impression they're making, placing that over the kids and their jobs.
There's a certain type of teacher whom I don't really have time to describe right now, but whom I can hardly stand working with. In a nutshell, it's the all flash and no substance variety who often gets the attention of administrators but who really doesn't put much content in the work and often actually takes advantage of other teachers by shifting more menial tasks to them and getting the best classes through adept use of politics. Many times I've seen this type leave the classroom for an administrative position or a job in the state ed dept. The classroom is really for them just a rung on the ladder.
I see a contrast between the discussion here and one I tried with little success (thankfully, in retrospect) to get involved in in TT, and some of it reflects the difference I see in teachers who work together well and those who have trouble communicating irl.
BTW, there's a different problem sometimes between elementary, middle, and high school and/or from dept to dept, where teachers play the blame game or have different perspectives of education which result in conflict rather than cooperation...i.e. what subject or grade level or dept is going to get more attention, money, etc. This has been occurring here between math and English (my husband says if they emphasize writing across the curriculum, they should do the same for math, since math scores are much lower than English scores statewide), and between athletics and virtually everything else.
44. Dantheman - 9/28/1999 8:49:03 AM
Good morning all!
I heard a piece on NPR this morning about the Colorado Springs School District's proposal to make the extent of a tax increase dependent upon improvements in test scores. The commentator felt this was likely to grow as a method of getting voters to approve tax increases. I suspect this will be rejected as just a gimmick. Any thoughts?
45. Dusty - 9/28/1999 9:07:17 AM
Dantheman
I heard that show.
The Realaudio link isn't live yet, but it may be here when it is.
Here is the summary:
Aaron Schachter (SHACK-ter) of Colorado Public Radio reports on two Colorado school districts, which are offering voters an incentive for raising their own property taxes. Administrators in Colorado Springs and Jefferson County, Colorado, are promising to raise the overall reading and math scores of their students on standardized tests, in return for more tax revenue to make educational improvements.
I think it will put undue pressure on teaching to standardized tests, also I think there is some merit in the general idea.
46. moonflower - 9/28/1999 11:26:52 AM
So much energy that could be put to bettering a department or group gets sucked up by egos, hates, and agendas. The intrigues and infighting often take precedence over the educating, the classroom essentially something to do between intrigues. This is not true everywhere, of course, but in many places, I believe it to be the case.
47. joezan - 9/28/1999 3:55:36 PM
arky - #34:
No...they'll still need to be degreed in their particular area of expertise. As the prof explained, probably the greatest source for good teachers under the new requirements will be those who need to fill the gap years between retirement and SS.
They're degreed, with 20, 25, 30 years of practical experience behind them. They've got 5-10 years till they begin collecting SS. They're looking to supplement their retirement, so the starting pay won't kill them.
Unlike some recent college grad, they've got a stable work history, and will most likely stick around awhile, but not long enough to earn the big bucks, or to earn tenure. It's the perfect deal, imo.
48. arkymalarky - 9/28/1999 5:29:44 PM
Joe,
We're talking about different things, then. I don't have any problem with that; on the contrary, I think it's a really good idea, especially in subject areas where it's hard to keep qualified people in the classroom, like math and science.
PD, (#39)
You're welcome. Thanks for doing it! It's been a while since I've had 8th graders, so I'll enjoy reading it and looking for similarities and differences in our experiences.
Interesting All Things Considered today on the way home. A young teen boy's diary as he goes through deciding to leave school in the 8th grade to be home schooled and then decides to go back. I didn't catch it all, but it sounded like it covered a span of three years or so.
49. JonesAtLaw - 9/28/1999 5:47:10 PM
To me, home schooling makes as much sense as home doctoring. If Mom or Dad's a M.D. then it might be ok, but lots of docs I know prefer not to work on their familiy alone. I feel the same way about education. There are advantages to parental teaching, but I think you can get much of the advantages by teaching your children as enrichment to that done in school, and by actively participating in your child's school.
50. arkymalarky - 9/28/1999 5:55:11 PM
This young man's social life was nil, of course, and it began to wear on him. I think some of his social problems were what made him want to quit in the first place, but I'm not sure since I got in on the program late. They were definitely what made him go back, though. If I could have dropped out in 8th or 9th grade because of social problems, I'd probably be living in a cave to this day...which does have a certain appeal on occasion.
51. DanDillon - 9/28/1999 9:54:27 PM
I agree with Jonsey. While home schooling isn't exactly like taking an unsure scalpel to your kid, it does strike me as socially damaging. I suppose it's only becoming more popular nowadays, what with the Scourge of Violence in American Public Schools that Symbolizes Nothing Less than the Great Educational Boogie Man. My sister-in-law-to-be is seriously considering home schooling her daugter, and I haven't figured out a way to gently and slyly dissuade her. Children, especially ECE kids, need to begin building their social muscles in the early grades. Some child makes up a game, the rules don't work, mutiny, the game shifts, kids recognize value of collective input and compromise. At home, mommy and daddy rule.
Of course, the consequences of home schooling go well beyong the social.
52. phillipdavid - 9/28/1999 10:29:36 PM
Dan,
What is ECE?
53. Stumbo - 9/28/1999 11:51:35 PM
Leno:
"According to a recent study, only one quarter of American schoolchildren can read and write at their grade level.
On the bright side, this has really cut down on the problem of kids passing notes in class."
54. joezan - 9/29/1999 12:18:09 AM
Dan:
You seem to assume either that:
a) Home schooled kids do not socialize, or...
b) School is the sole source of socialization for kids in general.
...both of which are wrong.
I have to wonder, seriously, if you actually know any families who home school?
My wife and I know quite a few. Some are terrible at it, and should really give it up. Most (those who have gone into it with alot of research and preparation), are quite good at it. I can assure you, however, that in all cases the kids get plenty of socialization.
As I write this, my wife and I are researching the possibility of home schooling our two children. And, when the time comes a little over two years from now that we will have to make the decision whether or not to do it, I'm quite confident, from what I've seen, that socialization will not even be an issue.
In researching print and on-line home schooling publications, we've discovered that nearly every one of them discusses - even offers lesson plans for - group home schooling activities.
55. joezan - 9/29/1999 12:37:50 AM
(...cont'd from #54):
In fact, a couple we talked to noted enthusiastically that one of the most beneficial aspects of home schooling is that the kids aren't forced to interact with (or be "interacted" upon by) kids they would not normally choose to interact with, and that the effect this has on stress and anxiety levels is almost immediately apparent.
Of course, my wife's and my reaction to this was, "Well, isn't it kind of, ummm......natural, to be forced to be around unpleasant people? And, consequently, to learn to deal with them?
"Only if you believe that it's more "natural" for a child to be away from his/her parents for 6 - 8 hours a day."
56. DanDillon - 9/29/1999 9:09:16 AM
To be interacted upon? So the vast home schooling movement has arisen out of the culture of victimization? What notion is this? Such language! Your wife makes a good point in learning how to deal with the majority of the population, unpleasant as they are.
pd,
ECE = Early Childhood Education
57. joezan - 9/29/1999 9:37:08 AM
Dan:
Actually, by "interacted upon" (an intentional malapropism, btw), I was referring to all of the (admittedly inevitable and unavoidable) distractions which are part and parcel of the school experience. And you will notice that I wrote "...my wife's and my reaction..."
But I don't think "inevitable and unavoidable" mean "necessary".
In any case, no, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that the reason they home school their children is that it protects them from unpleasant people. The couple I mentioned referred to that as a previously un-realized benefit.
The reasons for home schooling are varied, although most of the people I've spoken to have done so for religious reasons (a reason I don't necessarily agree with, btw). Nevertheless, their children appear extremely well-adjusted to me. The ones I deemed terrible at it are, I think, just not very good teachers, and I fear their children will suffer academically.
58. Buck Mulligan - 9/29/1999 10:49:01 AM
Hi all. I'm new here, and I thought I'd chime in on the home schooling issue. For background purposes, I'm not a parent, I teach at the college level, and I know two families who home school.
At first glance, I thought home schooling seemed like a bad idea, at least in most circumstances. I would not choose to home school my children. But I did do a little investigation on the topic, and I discovered a few things.
I have not found any studies which show that home schooled children do better or worse academically than children in conventional schools. In fact, I don't think that many studies have been done, and there are probably not enough children being home schooled upon whom to gather sufficient data. Notice, however, that I have not found studies. Some may exist that I have not seen.
The parents I know who home school cooperate with other home schooling parents to do group activities. Socially, their kids seem to get almost as much opportunity to interact with others as do children who attend small schools. One difference is that children at traditional schools do get to spend time away from their parents. This may be good or bad. I don't know. The children I know who are being home schooled are of elementary and middle school age. I wonder what their social lives will be like when they reach high school age.
I used to assume that traditional schools were the normal setting for education, and I didn't see why parents would choose to do something different. I have realized that there is nothing sacred about traditional schools. If parents want to home school, and if they can do a decent job of it, I think that's fine. As I said, I would not choose to do it, but I think it's a valid choice.
59. JonesAtLaw - 9/29/1999 12:24:13 PM
I am no longer a certified teacher, but once was. If I were to seriously consider home schooling, I would be confident that I could sucessfully teach my child the subjects I was once endorsed in. I probably could handle some of the other courses I was not endorsed in, English, basic math, etc. However, I would be at sea to teach him French, or Chemistry or many other subjects that I passed in high school. There is something more to teaching a subject than mastery of the material. There are techniques that one learns from other teachers, and sometimes from teacher's college that make a difference. I recall my eighth grade German teacher trying to teach us how to pronounce certain sounds in German. Specifically the o-umlaut sound. I tried and failed. I faked it for years with a terrible accent. My instructor was a native speaker who picked up an English degree and certification to teach Enlglish. She was shoved into German because she was a native speaker. In five minutes in college, my instructor showed us how to pronounce the necessary sounds by using specific examples from English words or straightforward directions. He had us hold our mouths in the shape we would use to make an long o sound in Enlglish and try to say long e. Bingo o-umlaut in German! This is the stuff that truly effective teachers are made of. Home schooling forces the instructor to learn all of these tools for all of the subjects. A dautning task to be sure.
60. Buck Mulligan - 9/29/1999 1:00:57 PM
I think that the hardest part of home schooling would be teaching the most basic material. For example, I never think about how to read, and I have no idea how I would explain it to a child. And there is no way I could teach basic math. I can barely manage to explain algebra. If I had to talk about addition and subtraction I don't know what I would do.
61. joezan - 9/29/1999 2:06:19 PM
Jones:
My wife and I have been told that that's a very common misconception about Home Schooling. It was one of our chief concerns, in part because I'm one of those people who just do not retain any advanced math. Right now, I could not possibly sit here and even attempt to teach someone algebra. But a few months ago, when I was taking a programming class, I did just fine, because I had the book in front of me. Could I teach my child algebra from a book? I think so.
What you have to remember is, your working from a curriculum in most cases.
62. JonesAtLaw - 9/29/1999 2:48:32 PM
Joezan- I know you can knock the rust off your knowledge, but what I was trying to get at was something deeper. There are tricks, techniques and methodology that one learns in teaching a subject which go beyond the material, and some are unique to the subject. If you teach that subject frequently, you retain and master these techniques. If you are constantly doing things for the first or second time, you're less likely to be as effective.
I agree that there are advantages to home schooling. You are likely to know your child better in most ways than the teacher; their strengths, weaknesses and their habits. However, there is the problem of objectivity. My parents were both in teaching when I was a child. My mother taught at a nearby school, where I could have attended if they would have requested the transfer. This would have been more convenient for my mother, but she decided not to, in order to avoid the problems associated with it.
It is interesting to me that home schoolers now are acknowledging the need for socialization of home school kids and are pushing for the same kinds of extra-curricular activities offered by traditional schools. I think that it is a good idea. I think that it is also good that some are pooling their efforts in cooperatives to teach their children. Rather Marxist, for such a generally conservative group.
63. CalGal - 9/29/1999 4:46:03 PM
Buck
Hi, and welcome!
64. JonesAtLaw - 9/29/1999 5:23:47 PM
Buck- Yes, welcome!!! I agree with you that teaching some of the basics can be difficult. Although there is plenty of literature on the subject, there is no academic agreement on just how children learn to read. How then, can people without training hope to do better than someone with the training in theory and practice. I compared it to home doctoring. A more fair comparison would be having medical students practice medicine without any clinical training or methods courses. You take anatomy etc. and start in on surgery without ever having instruction in just how one goes about taking out an appendix. You know why it needs to come out, and where it is, and what the instruments are, but have never done it.
65. arkymalarky - 9/29/1999 5:26:41 PM
I have several problems with home schooling, at least as it seems to work here. The school is responsible for providing all materials, there is little to no monitoring besides standardized tests, and I've seen people who have no business with their kids after school, much less being around them all day, home schooling. Younger kids are one thing, and I've known one or two parents who've home schooled their younger kids, though the one I remember specifically had a degree in education. Older ones I know, however, go to public school functions such as ballgames, and socialize with the public school kids, so the point of their home schooling (and at least one is for religious reasons) is beyond me. Their kids are getting exposed to the same public school values and ways and people at these functions--sometimes worse--as they would be at school. If parents don't have a network, it's going to be very difficult for their children to get any socialization, which is often the case in small communities where few parents make the choice to home school.
I really don't see much point in it unless the district is really bad, and in that case a parent would probably do better by the child to get a job and send the kid to private school.
Dan,
I love your take on the Chicken Little Syndrome wrt parents and schools.
66. CalGal - 9/29/1999 5:43:38 PM
I just had an annoying thing happen. Some background:
Spawn (my son) is 11 and a half. He is very bright and gets excellent grades. He is also very intense. Does not handle failure well. Gets upset. Periodically acts out on himself if he's frustrated. I do not know where this behavior comes from--certainly his mother is a model of decorum and restraint.
Every year, in the first month of school, I will hear of an incident and take action: I write a letter to his teacher explaining his behavior issues, the best way to handle them, and the procedure--namely, every time an incident occurs, send a note home. I guarantee results; I also explain that I do not beat him or anything like that--we handle it very matter-of-factly. No TV. No video games. Two/three incidents tops and the behavior stops. But they are not to let him get away with it or humor him. Every year, the teacher blows it at least once by not telling me of several incidents and then calling me up to report that Spawn is being a problem. I ask where the notes are, the teacher hems and haws, I tell them I don't wish to deal with phone calls, I tell them to send the notes, the notes start, usually only one, the problem ends.
He has gotten steadily and dramatically better every year, to the point that last year his citizenship and conduct scores had nary an "N" among them (N for Needs Improvement). S and O across the board. Far more praised than were his near straight As and his outstanding achievement award in Math (which also received due attention and hugs, of course.)
Background over.
67. CalGal - 9/29/1999 5:46:12 PM
So this year, I'd been monitoring him. He seemed happy, was always focusing on his homework and grades, and seemed to be doing well.
Today, I get a call from the school registrar. She wants to schedule a meeting with me. I assume it's the first parent/teacher conference. No. All of Spawn's teachers want to meet with me about "his anger" and his "acting out".
I said, grimly: "Have they notified me of this before?"
The registrar senses danger. "No, but that's what they're doing now."
I said, "Ah. Well, tell them that I don't meet with them until notes come home first. Surely, if it's enough of a problem that they've discussed it among themselves, it's enough of a problem to warrant me being notified."
She says, "They also need to meet with you because of his grades."
I said, in astonishment, "His grades?"
"Yes, you see, he has been put out of class a few times for behavior and they say it is affecting his grades."
I take a beat. Another beat.
And then I say, "Look. I realize you are just the messenger, so I apologize in advance for any irritation you hear in my voice."
She says, "Gotcha."
I say, "Tell the teachers that neither his father or I will be meeting with them until they begin sending notes home with Spawn--requiring signatures--whenever he acts out. I will be writing them a letter tonight. Got that far?"
"Yes."
68. CalGal - 9/29/1999 5:50:51 PM
"Then--and I want you to be extremely clear about this next part--I want you to tell them all that I am very angry that they have put Spawn out of class and not notified me. I suggest they radically improve their communication process and not notify the parent only when they're concerned about his grades. I also suggest that they consider the fact that Spawn's grades coming home have all been excellent, and I will not take kindly any attempt to down"grade" him just on behavior."
"You can also tell them that I will be talking to Spawn tonight to find out what has happened, and he will be in Shit City for not having mentioned this little detail about being sent out of class. (assuming it has happened more than once, and assuming the teachers aren't exaggerating, which is by no means uncommon). Finally, you can tell them that I am most unimpressed with them and as of now, any credibility or slack I might grant them is gone."
I can hear her writing all this down.
"You have it?"
She repeats it back. "And can I leave this phone number for them to call you?"
"No. I do not talk to teachers on the phone. They can write me a note. I am very responsive to notes. I do not wish to talk to them. More importantly from their perspective, they would not enjoy talking to me. Trust me on this."
I hate training teachers.
69. CalGal - 9/29/1999 5:52:07 PM
As an open plaint--why the hell do they pull shit like this? How on earth can they send kids out of class and not tell the parents--and then have the fucking audacity to call a parent teacher conference to inform me that they're worried about his grades? Idiocy. And yet this happens at least once every single year.
I also wish--to give credit where it is due--to acknowledge the registrar, who is a wise woman. She realized I was pissed, she did her job, and I have every confidence that the teachers will get that message loud and clear. Most importantly, she made no attempt to justify or defend the teachers.
I wish finally to pat myself on the back for not ripping the registrar apart before I took three seconds to recognize that she wasn't the one I was angry at. Especially given that she turned out to be a wise woman.
70. ChristiPeters - 9/29/1999 6:08:31 PM
CalGal -
I will qualify this by first saying I totally agree that you should have been contacted right away.
I have one question. You said "Every year, in the first month of school, I will hear of an incident and take action: I write a letter to his teacher explaining his behavior issues, the best way to handle them, and the procedure...
Have you considered sending the letter before any incident occurs? Say in the first week or so of school or at orientation or open house if the school has one.
I make a point of telling Lil' Darlin's teachers about her 'modus operendi' at the start of the year.
(Of course, part of the reason I do this is that LD's reaction to problems is not to act out, but to get very very quietly, obediantly, unhappy - at which point she stops learning much of anything. This sort of reaction is much less likely to get the teacher's attention that a problem even exists than any acting out behavior, which is what it sounds like Spawn does.)
71. ChristiPeters - 9/29/1999 6:09:54 PM
CalGal -BTW, a big pat on the back from me too, for not killing the messenger. Sometimes that is very hard to do when you are upset.
72. CalGal - 9/29/1999 6:21:22 PM
Christi,
Yeah, my post was long enough and so I cut some things out. I should have specified that at first I sent the notes right in the first week. The last two years I've been holding off because as students get older, teachers are more likely to jump to conclusions. IOW, if I identify Spawn as a potential problem, they might be more likely to see him as such. So now I wait until there is an incident. I usually hear of them from Spawn. I should also say that last year, Spawn must have really respected the teacher because there were amazingly few incidents and the ones that did occur were all mild.
Also, Spawn does not act out to get attention--I realize you weren't suggesting this, I just thought I'd mention it. It is all internally driven, and is a function of his intensity level. He responds well to structure--in fact, he needs it. Basically, his acting out occurs because the teacher doesn't know how to react and tolerates it
more than he or she should--thereby not providing structure. Once the structure is provided--act out, note goes home, no TV--he has a framework. He actually finds the notes home comforting (not in any conscious sense, but his behavior and his mood improvement is always dramatic).
Spawn's public school teachers have all generally been at least decent. Worst one was in North Carolina; best one in a public school was his teacher last year.
Funny story I may have told before: when Spawn was in first grade, he had gone a long time without notes and then one came home. I sighed, and said exasperatedly, "What am I going to do with you, young man?"
He said, indignantly, "Mom. I've only been to the principal's office three times this entire year!"
I had to break the news gently--some children go their entire school career without going to the principal's office! He was shocked.
73. ranheim - 9/29/1999 7:00:06 PM
At 64 I still cannot understand people in the school system who say to me "but you have to meet all kinds in order that you learn how to deal with "it" successfully". I have always asked WHY.
My oldest is a marine biologist. Why did he have to learn to deal with hooligans (and worse) in my home town? My second is in the vaccine division of Merck. Again why did he have to understand under-achievers (and worse)? Now my third is a teacher. She has had to learn! But, she tells me, very little she learned as a school kid translated into the classroom as a teacher.
So far as social life of home schoolers, I can comment from a situation that had some similarities. The high school that was in my hometown (it is currently a middle school - consolidation took away the high school) was terrible. My wife and I sent these three to the local Catholic schools 1 - 8; they went their last 4 years to a Catholic high school 40 miles away. The boys had a room near their school and came home on weekends. My wife had a double standard for the girl : she came home every night. None of the three had a very active social life in high school and my wife and I were delighted! We wanted no part of one of ours marrying young. Call that ego or whatever. Both of us were in agreement. We had married in our late 20s (I had just completed my internship). We, as a married couple, have seen about 1/3 of the world. We considered schooling and travel more important than an early marriage.
Maybe we are paying for it now : all are in their 30s. Only the middle kid is married.
74. arkymalarky - 9/29/1999 7:09:56 PM
"None of the three had a very active social life in high school and my wife and I were delighted! We wanted no part of one of ours marrying young."
Even in a small rural school like the one I work in, lots of kids hold out on marriage until they're fifteen or sixteen years old. And many of those aren't even parents yet when they tie the knot!
Seriously, what makes you associate public school socializing with early marriage?
75. DanDillon - 9/29/1999 7:18:14 PM
On home schooling: While a teacher training program isn't always the most rigorous (or worthwhile) 18 months in a person's life, there is something to be said for an individual who is equipped with the tools to teach. Frankly, it worries me a great deal to see someone advocating home schooling on the basis of being able to "teach my child...from a book." Teaching, though varied and complex, is rarely if ever built between two bound cardboard plates. And despite the fact that most of the home schooler's work comes from an established curriculum, one still must know the difference between your and you're.
CG,
It's kids exactly like Spawn who make my classroom a space full of learning opportunities. I love the energy level. As for the letterful relationships you encourage Spawn's teachers to participate in, it goes both ways. Give both Spawn and the teachers a little credit, and don't flat out assume that "as students get older, teachers are more likely to jump to conclusions." O ye of little faith.
76. Rick Nowood - 9/29/1999 7:20:12 PM
Hi, CalGal. Good to hear that you and Spawn are healthy, wealthy, and wise. No? Well, hell, two out of three ain't bad.
Most people home school because public schools are so bore-ring. Home schooled kids do better on the standard tests than school schooled kids, or so I read. I only know what I read in the papers.
Rick Norwood
www.io.com/~norwoodr
77. ranheim - 9/29/1999 7:26:29 PM
arky
Have we ever compared the size of our 2 home towns. Mine is barely 2000. We have 40,000 in our parish.
Neither my wife nor I consider it a good move to get married early. And in this day of nearly 50% divorce rates we believe it even more.
Additionaly, with a population of only 40,000 one's choice is quite severely limited. We hoped the "pool" at college would be larger.
78. arkymalarky - 9/29/1999 7:39:13 PM
Rick,
"Home schooled kids do better on the standard tests than school schooled kids, or so I read. I only know what I read in the papers."
I think that's true, but I don't know a breakdown of it wrt ages. I'd be somewhat surprised if that were the case through high school, but there are numerous factors to consider in looking at the statistics for public schools and home schoolers which would affect how home schoolers compare on standardized tests without necessarily reflecting superior education for home schoolers.
IAC, I think a fulltime personal tutor would help anybody as long as the material's on a level the tutor can handle.
Ranheim,
Where I work is much smaller, and there are many districts in my area of the state the same size or less, but the point is that the marriage pool before college would be the same with home schooling or public schooling unless you isolate your children from others their ages in the community, and I know lots of folks who don't get married until after they get out of high school and to people who weren't from their home towns. In fact, our kids often think they should date people out of their town. The more they and their parents value education, the less likely they are to limit themselves in that way.
79. DanDillon - 9/29/1999 7:55:41 PM
Though study after study has been done, there is no research that indicates a correlation between high standardized test scores and future financial success.
80. Rick Nowood - 9/29/1999 8:00:05 PM
What do you mean by that? WHAT do you mean by that? What do you MEAN by that?
You could, for example, mean that the top ten percent of the scores do not earn more than the middle ten percent. I can believe that. Great wealth is largely a matter of greed and luck. But if you mean that the bottom ten percent earn, on the average, as much as the top ten percent, I don't believe that.
Rick Norwood
www.io.com/~norwoodr
81. phillipdavid - 9/29/1999 8:12:11 PM
Maybe the really intelligent people know better than to spend their energy chasing money.
82. CalGal - 9/29/1999 8:13:57 PM
No, more likely the very intelligent people know that there's no point spending money on the prep test to get an 800 instead of a 750.
83. phillipdavid - 9/29/1999 8:35:31 PM
In 6 or 7 years of teaching, I have run across probably 10 kids who have rentered the public school system after a period of homeschooling. Most were severly lacking in basic skills, such as reading and writing, and a few were lacking functional or effective social skills. The "successes" (2 of them) were incredible successes and top notch people. In all cases, the quality of these students as students mirrored what I believed I saw in their parents. That is, the two successes had very talented parents who had been top notch students themselves.
Hard to make generalizations about homeschooling, but I would say this, which is I believe is true true for all teachers: except for special cases, the kids will mirror the type and quality of energy the teacher puts out. So a very skillful parent can produce a very high quality student at home.
84. pseudoerasmus - 9/29/1999 8:41:57 PM
PD's #83 seems sensible. Bertrand Russell was homeschooled all his life before he entered Cambridge University. It is said he managed to make jokes in Ancient Greek by age 4. But not everyone has Russell's parents & grandparents.
Perhaps homeschooling licences should be issued. These would be handed out only to parents determined by a state-administered board to be mentally and intellectually fit for providing basic education at home. If they are also found to be too stupid, then the state could also remove the children from the care of these parents.
85. Angel-Five - 9/29/1999 8:52:29 PM
Of course there's a reason to get an 800 over a 750. If you could pay for that people would beat the doors down on Kaplan and other smaller courses. It is the difference between a sure scholarship and one you might not get; it's the difference between getting into a prestigious slot and having to take the second best option. The thing is that you can't buy those last hundred or so points.
I am tempted to agree with Felipe except that in my experience really intelligent people aren't any wiser than anyone else, and it's only the wise who manage to get past money. If I knew the secret to ignore money, besides just not making any in the first place, then I'd be much happier.
86. pseudoerasmus - 9/29/1999 8:55:03 PM
"I am tempted to agree with Felipe except that in my experience really intelligent people aren't any wiser than anyone else..."
Acute self-description.
87. arkymalarky - 9/29/1999 9:01:52 PM
Cal,
How big are Spawn's school and classes? Does he switch classes and teachers for each subject? The reason I ask is because as kids get older and begin having different teachers and classes it means teachers have more students to focus on for less time, and there is a decrease in teacher communication to parents. I used to get at least weekly reports on my daughter, and now I get two per nine weeks, and one of those is the report card. I don't know the school's policy on contacting parents wrt discipline. Where I work the change in parent/teacher communication both ways is drastic from elementary to seventh grade.
I hope you'll keep us posted on the results wrt the teachers.
88. Rick Nowood - 9/29/1999 10:17:47 PM
The universe is full of trade offs. If I loved money as much as I love science fiction, I'd probably be rich. If I had loved my wife as much as I love money, I'd probably still be married. If I loved sleep as much as I love conversation, I'd go to bed. I do know this. I'd rather be rich than poor, rather be smart that stupid, rather be wise than foolish, rather be loved that be alone.
Rick Norwood
www.io.com/~norwoodr
89. CalGal - 9/29/1999 10:55:10 PM
It is the difference between a sure scholarship and one you might not get; it's the difference between getting into a prestigious slot and having to take the second best option.
No argument. However, we weren't talking about success in college. We were talking about "future financial success" as per Dan's original statement. Extremely intelligent people often realize that they don't even really need to go to college, depending on what they want to do. Or they don't feel the need to spend the money on a really expensive college. Obviously, this isn't always true--some smart people do want to go to the best university, and kill themselves getting there. But there are many who don't. I'm figuring that those many are the ones accounting for Dan's numbers that show no correlation between high test scores and financial success.
Your response implies that success in school is critical to financial success after school. I'm figuring this is inadvertent. Obviously, Harvard graduates are more likely to be financially successful than those coming out of Podunk U, but there is no guarantee in any individual case that this is true.
90. CalGal - 9/29/1999 11:02:10 PM
Arky,
Oh, I'm sure that is what happened. Spawn is now moving about from class to class and has several teachers. I wouldn't expect them to be giving me notes every day. However, if they'd gotten to the point of conferring with each other about it, then they'd better also send a note home.
Frankly, I think some teachers want the ambush. They want to put the parent at a disadvantage--parent discovers the kid is misbehaving, is fussed, willing to promise anything, apologetic for any problems caused.
I enjoy disappointing their expectations and pointing out their responsibilities.
91. JonesAtLaw - 9/29/1999 11:17:55 PM
CalGal- Do you expect every person in a work setting to send you notes as individuals when you deal with a computer problem, or is a meeting with a department head enough? I sympathize with your preference for notes from teachers, but wonder if some flexibility is in order. I am not sure if what the teachers want is an ambush, but if they do, they are sadly mistaken. In any event they should appreciate a parent who will support them in their efforts to address the problem, many don't. I'm sure that many teachers get the response "we can't do anything with him/her at home either...." Good luck.
92. joezan - 9/29/1999 11:31:55 PM
Dan - #75:
Good points, except that:
a) Many, many teachers teach right from the book - probably half of my teachers did -and many of them were teaching the gifted students.
b) Regardless of what materials are used, getting the attention of one's few children is going to be alot easier than doing so for a classroom full of kids, most of whom the teacher hardly knows, and has no idea how to deal with when something goes wrong (see CalGal's posts above). Basically (and this is also something every home schooling parent has told us), if there is a subject neither parent is particularly adept in, no sweat - the benfits of individual attention quickly make up for that.
c) I didn't say I was "advocating home schooling on the basis of being able to "teach my child...from a book", and you know it. That was very lame.
d) One is fully aware of the difference between your and you're, but one also realizes that one is not in a spelling bee here, and doesn't bother to ever preview his posts unless they contain some dangerous html explosives. One also assumes that intelligent contributors to this forum do not pick out a misspelled word as an indication of another poster's intelligence.
93. CalGal - 9/29/1999 11:32:18 PM
Jones,
An appropriate computer analogy would be this--I'm supporting a system, and a user calls me up, ranting, "This system doesn't work! It hasn't worked for three weeks!"
My first question: "Have you called me before now?"
Answer: "No."
Then I am deeply sympathetic and will fix his problem, but the three weeks is on him, not me.
And that's still not a good analogy, because in this case I'm the customer. And it's the teacher's job to tell me if my son is misbehaving, particularly if it has gotten to the point that it is affecting his grades or if he is a subject of discussion among more than one teacher.
Your supposition about most parents is probably true. But it doesn't change the teacher's responsibility. Any smart teacher would always cover their ass with a note--because the minute the parent asks why there was no note, the teacher is seriously screwed. All a parent like me has to do is ask why they haven't been notified, and the teacher is instantly at a disadvantage.
So in this case, the teachers probably got together and determined that Spawn was a problem and it was time to address this with his parents--figuring their combined effort would give them the upper hand and convince the parents of the seriousness of this situation. And they got smacked sharply across the nose.
I realize, of course, that they do it this way because most parents aren't persuaded of seriousness until some ludicrous parent/teacher torture session is scheduled. But if they want to leave themselves open like that, they'll have to deal with the occasional sting of a rebuke from a parent who expects them to do their job.
94. DanDillon - 9/30/1999 8:46:51 AM
joezan,
A rebuttal:
a) Many, many teachers teach right from the book - probably half of my teachers did - and many of them were teaching the gifted students.
This by no stretch of the imagination makes them good teachers. Countless dummies teach countless AP and gifted kids. A sad truth.
b) Regardless of what materials are used, getting the attention of one's few children is going to be alot easier than doing so for a classroom full of kids, most of whom the teacher hardly knows, and has no idea how to deal with when something goes wrong (see CalGal's posts above). Basically (and this is also something every home schooling parent has told us), if there is a subject neither parent is particularly adept in, no sweat - the benfits of individual attention quickly make up for that.
Personally (for whatever empirical evidence is worth around here), I have never had any difficulty getting my students' attention. For those who teach straight from the book, however, this would most likely be a monumental task, I understand. And while my students "hardly know" me in August/September, they're already looking forward to coming to Mr. Dillon's English class by October/November. It ain't dumb luck, and it certainly ain't because I teach straight from the book.
c) I didn't say I was "advocating home schooling on the basis of being able to "teach my child...from a book", and you know it. That was very lame.
Perhaps not. But it seemed to me that you were allowing such dry, predictable pedagogy to pass for acceptable teaching methods, especially for those would-be teacher-parents who lack fundamental understanding of basic learning principles. That is very lame indeed.
[cont.]
95. DanDillon - 9/30/1999 8:47:25 AM
d) One is fully aware of the difference between your and you're, but one also realizes that one is not in a spelling bee here, and doesn't bother to ever preview his posts unless they contain some dangerous html explosives. One also assumes that intelligent contributors to this forum do not pick out a misspelled word as an indication of another poster's intelligence.
Just as one is judged by how one speaks, so is one judged by how one writes. Belch a sentence, and both you and your reader excuse yourselves; but craft a sentence, and watch you and your reader long for more. "Proper words in proper places."
96. DanDillon - 9/30/1999 8:52:36 AM
Further:
...if there is a subject neither parent is particularly adept in, no sweat - the benfits of individual attention quickly make up for that.
Do the parents then coddle the child and tenderly tell him "it's gonna be okay. We don't need to know that nasty ol' geometry anyway"? This is quality home schooling? Individual attention with no schooling mixed in sounds an awful lot like babysitting to me.
97. ChristiPeters - 9/30/1999 10:12:38 AM
CalGal - I kinda figured you had a good reason. I hadn't thought about it, but you are right to not want to set up expectations. I hope you get results with Spawn's teachers now.
Rick Nowood - Not all public schools are boring. The one Lil' Darlin' is in right now not only challenges her intellect, but engages her interest. She has at least 2 hours of homework most nights, but doesn't seem to mind because the work is interesting. However, boredom was a real problem at her school where we used to live. Too bad we can't identify all the good schools and transplant what makes them good into other schools.
98. DanDillon - 9/30/1999 10:42:12 AM
Too bad we can't identify all the good schools and transplant what makes them good into other schools.
We can. We simply don't.
The responsibility of engaging students rests primarily with teachers. Following them, tied for a distant second, are parents, administrative policies, extracurricular coaches/sponsors, the community, textbook manufacturers, and students' peers.
99. JonesAtLaw - 9/30/1999 4:16:01 PM
CalGal- this suggestion may be worth exactly what you paid for it (g), but consider some form of two way communication with Spawn's teachers if problems persist. I wish that I would have had more of it when I was teaching. I remember writing a note home to parents once about a childs grades in a nose dive. It turns out that this lovely 13 year old was having a hell of a time dealing with her parents in the throes of a nasty divorce. It nearly became fodder for the custody fight. I wished I would have just called earlier, with a general inquiry. OTOH I had about 90 kids to keep track of...
100. ranheim - 9/30/1999 4:28:15 PM
Those teachers/profs that gave you a "hand out" at the beginning of the class - then read it to you drove me to drink. And if it was a class that I could leave, I usually got up, left, and looked for a beer.
101. CalGal - 9/30/1999 4:35:50 PM
Jones,
Generally, teachers and I do fine as soon as they realize that all I require is notification. I am a reasonable parent who backs the teacher in nearly all cases. And I always write notes back if they send me one.
I have a few caveats--I do not tolerate reports of my son being teased or taunted. I do not take kindly to stupid rules that affect grades. And, given my reasonable attitude about my son and his behavior, I pay close attention to any suspicions I have that the teacher is scapegoating Spawn. I've never had any real problems with this last since kindergarten, but it can happen.
102. JonesAtLaw - 9/30/1999 4:40:29 PM
CalGal- What you propose is reasonable.
I agree with being careful wrt scapegoating. I especially worry about this in the case of boys in grade school who are large for their age. They seem to be expected to act their height/size and not their age. Physically active boys are a similar concern. They usually don't have a clue as to how to be sneaky.
103. CalGal - 9/30/1999 5:03:14 PM
Jones,
You are preaching to the choir. I don't remember if I mentioned this earlier, but Spawn is 5'4" and 125 lbs. In other words, he's a big kid, and has been big all his life. When he was a toddler and pre-schooler, in facilities with kids 2 and 3 years older than he was, teachers used to complain about his behavior and I would always say--isn't that pretty appropriate for his age? They would skip a beat and say, "Oh. Well. Yes, I suppose it is."
It is extremely unusual for a big boy with as many temperament issues as he has to also be a "brain" in school. I sent him to a very small private school for three years (only 20 kids) where he could work at his own speed in a very low-pressure environment--where he was working basic algebra problems in second grade, reading high school texts in third, and so on. It made a big difference when he went back to public school--he had the confidence of knowing he was smart and
capable--even if he did have to go to the principal's office more than everyone else.
It is rare that he actually bonds with a teacher. He'll like them well enough, but nothing more. Likewise, I've never seen any public school teacher really enjoy him--and he is a neat kid, who is generally very much liked by adults. But teachers generally only notice the trouble he causes them. I can't imagine him enjoying school without already knowing his capabilities as he does now. I'm not sure he would have ever gotten to know his capabilities if I'd left him in public school for his formative years.
I always encourage people with very bright, iconoclastic children to consider small private schools--or at least to supplement public school with private tutoring. It is no slam at public schools to say that they do not handle extremely bright children very well--and that's a group that should be handled with kid gloves.
104. ChristiPeters - 9/30/1999 11:09:05 PM
CalGal -
Sounds like Spawn is very fortunate in his parent.
&:o)
105. joezan - 9/30/1999 11:21:46 PM
Dan:
Individual attention with no schooling mixed in sounds an awful lot like babysitting to me.
I did not realize that you were a teacher. I think this may explain some of your defensiveness wrt home schooling. Teachers are getting it from all sides lately, and most of the criticism seems to me to be baseless finger-pointing. But to reject the notion that the individual attention home schooling provides can make up for a multitude of sins, is outright ludicrous. Why, then, all the fuss these many years about ever-increasing class size?...to say nothing of the fact that what is going on in too many of our classrooms is nothing more than "babysitting", and probably less-than-acceptable babysitting at that, anyway.
Perhaps you are one of those special teachers who manage to keep a whole class of kids on task and interested - I certainly have no reason to believe you are not. But in my experience, the vast majority of teachers are not so gifted. That's not a criticism - I just think there is a natural breaking point, and the more rebellious and distracted kids as a generation become, the lower the threshhold.
(cont'd...)
106. joezan - 9/30/1999 11:22:51 PM
(...cont'd from #105):
As for augmenting book teaching -especially for those who may not be especially good at it - how many traditional teachers have options like these (all of which, btw, a home school cooperative we've been talking with did last year alone):
...took their group of 12 kids on the spur-of-the-moment to a nearby lake to investigate and take samples when it was reported that the water had, overnight, turned an almost fluorescent green...earning a first-hand education in the effects of farm and industrial run-off in just a few hours.
...worked the farm of a local family, 4 hours every day for a week, so the family could take the only vacation they had ever had.
...took a 3-day hike in the Manistee forest, foraging for their food and constructing their own shelters.
...took monthly museum trips.
...switched their schedules around numerous times, sometimes for as long as a month, to accommodate members whose work schedules had changed, or who could not otherwise participate during the normal times.
...and the list goes on.
Don't get me wrong, Dan. I have the utmost respect for teachers, and I believe that teaching is the most underpaid, underappreciated profession in this country - besides mine, of course. But after so many years of a downward spiral in the quality of public education, criticism of alternative schooling by those in academia begins to sound a bit like GM in the 70's, claiming their cars were better than that cheap Japanese crap.
107. arkymalarky - 9/30/1999 11:32:47 PM
Had a rep from AR School of Math and Science speak to the students today. It's really an impressive sounding place. We've had a few attend in the past and do well. The graduating class of 95 last year got over $8 million in scholarships, and their average ACT score was 28.4. Any student can apply to attend, they get a balance throughout the state, and all room and board is paid for. Their maximum allowed is 250 students, juniors and seniors. Parents are out minor expenses which the rep said amounts to about $250. Almost all the teachers have Masters or PhDs, and they have state-of-the-art technology and equipment. Students live in dorms during the week and go home on weekends and holidays, though they can stay some weekends if they like.
108. joezan - 9/30/1999 11:47:01 PM
arky:
The graduating class of 95 last year got over $8 million in scholarships...
Wow! That's over 80 grand a head - do you suppose they'll be spending any of that money in AR?
109. arkymalarky - 9/30/1999 11:54:52 PM
Actually, 60% of them chose to go in state, if I understood her correctly. UofA has a Chancellor's scholarship which pays everything with money left over, and there are other schools which offer excellent scholarships to top students. My husband's nephew, who made a perfect score on his SAT in math, chose UofA over Yale, which would take him but would not pay any scholarships not based on financial need.
110. arkymalarky - 9/30/1999 11:56:40 PM
BTW, there were Ivy League schools and more than one MIT scholarship in that number. I saw a list somewhere, probably this summer when I went to an AP institute there.
111. joezan - 9/30/1999 11:59:43 PM
arky:
Pretty impressive.
112. arkymalarky - 10/1/1999 12:05:15 AM
Yeah, I told the rep we'd be a lot more enthusiastic about sending our kids there if we could keep their scores on our records. They top every school in the state, and when students from small schools like ours go there it can really affect our averages. The ones we've sent have really benefited, though.
113. arkymalarky - 10/1/1999 12:06:17 AM
I say we've sent, but that's not at all true. It's entirely up to the student and parents whether or not to go.
114. JonesAtLaw - 10/1/1999 11:30:17 AM
Has anyone heard about a trangender teacher in California being fired for their sex change? I understand that 4 families complained, and that the teacher has been discharged. It was reported that the teacher had good evaluations in the past, hasn't done anything to violate the morals clause of the contract etc. He notified the district that when he returned for the fall semester, he would be a she. She returned to be fired.
What is your view of this?
115. ChristiPeters - 10/1/1999 11:43:41 AM
Assuming all the facts are as you have presented them in regards to ...the teacher had good evaluations in the past, hasn't done anything to violate the morals clause of the contract etc..., my personal opinion is that this is wrong. The teacher should not have been fired and I hope she fights it.
116. JonesAtLaw - 10/1/1999 11:58:28 AM
ChristiPeters- I agree, but all I know is snippets from a talk radio show. It is an interesting issue. I can understand some parents trepidation in dealing with the issue. However, what I know of gender change operations, they are not done lightly. There is a good deal of psychological examination done prior to any operation, and not everyone seeking the operation gets it. If the mental health professionals say this is appropriate treatment, and the medical professionals say its appropriate, then I don't think we should penalize someone for following the advice of their physicians.
117. ranheim - 10/1/1999 6:45:07 PM
Jones
You are absolutely correct. The pre-op screening for such surgery is extremely complete - even arduous.
Not very many of these "Christine Jorgenson" operations are done. Now think of the skills needed on the part of the surgical team. That is a lot of time - in years - at risk! The surgical team is looking for excuses not to do this surgery as the malpractice risk is so high. State medical societies can be hazardous (your license) as well.
As a lawyer, you probably know more about this than do I. There was a case shortly after Jorgenson where the patient had signed an agreement before surgery that he/she would not sue. Had problems/2nd thoughts after surgery and did sue. The judge in the case ruled that one cannot sign away rights such as these prior to surgery. I never found out how the suit ended; which means it was probably settled out of court. I wish I could remember names for you; or even the state but I am drawing a blank.
118. phillipdavid - 10/1/1999 8:50:06 PM
Anyone read my diary linked to in the butterscotch bar of this thread? A fairly typical week in my life as an 8th grade teacher.
119. arkymalarky - 10/2/1999 12:11:55 AM
PD,
It seems you have a hectic pace. I have a good friend who has lots of energy and a very active style with his students, but he was maxed out with 150 ninth graders every year, and he finally had to move to half a day of all seniors because he was close to burning out. It wasn't discipline at all, but just the intensity of the work both outside and inside the classroom--he loved working with writing, but he was overwhelmed by grading with so many students. People who thrive on a fast pace and kids with a lot of energy, though, make great middle school teachers, and they're sorely needed in that age group. I think it's smart of administrators not to overload teachers who teach those grades because it requires so much time and energy. Had his class load been better he'd probably still be teaching ninth grade.
Do you take much work home? I actually prefer to grade at home, because I can get more comfortable and relaxed and I like the incandescent lighting better. I do most of my grading at work, though.
120. joezan - 10/2/1999 7:39:44 AM
pd:
You've done your homework - nice job. Was all this evidence against A/B scheduling presented before your school decided to go with it? The memory/recall info alone would be enough to dissuade me.
When reading your rebuttals to some of the purported benefits, I had to read the "less time in hallways" one a couple of times. I can't believe that this issue was presented as a benefit of A/B. It seems to me that when you're reduced to defending your position using such a petty issue, you lose before you leave the gate - well, obviously, they didn't lose...sounds like whoever "they" are may have had their minds made before there was ever any debate.
121. joezan - 10/2/1999 8:23:32 AM
And, speaking of minds being made...
My wife and I may be closer to our decision on whether or not to home school. There was another meeting last night on school re-alignment (which we couldn't make - it was hastily-arranged and we had plans), and it actually sounds pretty good for our side.
Our new HS will be ready for the 00-01 school year, and a few months ago the school board announced plans to relieve the crowding in our elementary schools by making the current Jr.-Sr.HS (grades 6-12) into an "Upper Middle" school -grades 4-8, once the 9th-12th graders move out. This plan was universally, vocally opposed by just about every elementary parent in the district. But we were told, before the first meeting was even held, that there was really nothing else to be done short of building a new school. And this would never happen, as we had just past a millage for a $20+million HS.
A friend reported that every 4th and 5th grade teacher in the district was there last night, and they swore that they would all move down to the lower grades before they would try to teach their kids in a middle school.
(cont'd)...
122. joezan - 10/2/1999 8:24:16 AM
...(cont'd)
But the big news was that the school board gave preliminary endorsement to a plan the ad-hoc parents group sent them some weeks ago (which was kept secret - a major feat in these parts). The plan provides for total separation of the elementary (4th-6th) students from the Jr.HS students and facilities, including a completely separate bus schedule and a community police officer.
And, amazingly, the board also seemed to have no problem with perhaps the biggest sticking-point...a separate administration for the Upper-Elementary wing. They said that any decision on separate gym facilities would need to go to a millage vote, but they promised to give that their endorsement too.
If this all works out, it will be extremely good news. My wife quit working seven years ago to stay home with the kids, and this change will take place just as our older daughter enters 3rd grade and our younger daughter enters kindergarten. It would be nice to have two incomes again.
123. phillipdavid - 10/2/1999 11:30:04 AM
Arky and Joe,
I try very hard not to take work home. What I typically grade are History worksheets and tests, Literature worksheets and essays, and Language Arts essays and minor assignments (like DOL sentences).
Literature/Speech class really helps me out because I have the kids do all their reading in class, so I sit at my desk and grade their papers while they read. I do the same thing with History worksheets; I give them an assignment to read one section of a chapter (about 6-7 pages) and complete some questions, which takes them about 30 minutes to do, and I sit and grade while they work.
Language Arts essays are the big bugaboo. The primary purpose of LA class is to teach them how to write an essay well enough so that they can pass the state writing test. I actually haven't started doing that yet...things I am doing in LA class so far are preliminary efforts -- enrich their vocabulary, teach them about figurative language (which I do through Literature class), and how to edit their sentences to make sure they can use commas and other such stuff properly.
The writing test is in the spring, and soon I will start teaching them about the writing process (brainstorm, organize ideas, rough draft, revise, edit, final draft), required elements of different types of essays (descriptive, expository, persuasive, imaginative, narrative), and then I will have them write one essay of each type which I will grade using the stateWriting Scoring Guide. We will do this November through February, so I have a bunch of essays to grade for several months, but I can live with that. These, and the end of the year research papers during fourth quarter, are the only time I usually have to take essays home to grade, and it means four or five hours work during the weekend. (and I usually sit down in front of the football game and give half my attention to each!)
124. phillipdavid - 10/2/1999 11:31:38 AM
Bottom line is that my method is pretty efficient -- the state scoring guide really helps because it focuses their effort and my feedback on very specific writing traits, and gives the students extremely clear feedback. I only grade maybe 7 or 8 essays per student in LA class per year (I also grade many more per student in Literature class, so each student of mine will have about 15 essays graded per year by me, plus all the short, little essays they write in the history tests). For about three moths -- November through February -- I take home essays to grade for LA class.
Also, since we use block classes -- I teach two, plus three literature/Speech classes -- I only have about 45-50 students in LA class (I have about 80 in Lit/Speech -- most of them overlap, so I have 45-50 in all three classes). So I can grade 45-50 essays in 4 hours. It is still a lot of work, rather tedious, but I do it efficiently and quickly.
I am not a high energy person. But I am on all the time during school hours. I am actually rather relaxed and sedate, maintaining a sort of Buddha-nature most of the time (except in history class where I am very passionate), so school doesn't stress me out or burn me out (so far). The block schedule helps a lot because I do not have 150 students walking through my door each day -- I have 45 on "B" days, and about 75 on "A" days. The A/B schedule --although I oppose it-- works to make the daily atmosphere less stressful and less zany, because I see less kids every day.
125. phillipdavid - 10/2/1999 11:32:26 AM
Before we switched to the A/B schedule last year, I had block class every day, and block class included Literature/Speech. So I had about 45 student each day, and I taught those students four subjects each day I about 2 and 1/2 hours. I prefer that schedule. And only having 45-50 kids to teach is a whole lot saner than having 150 kids marching through my door each day. I really don't know why all schools don't work with some sort of block schedule or another. Having 6-7 classes each day, with about 150-180 kids each day, grading 150-180 essays or history or lit assignments would definitely lead to a quick burn out. It is sadistic!
Joe, No, my evidence was created a few months after we switched to the A/B schedule. I was very unhappy with it, so I spent a couple of weekends doing research and writing up those pages you read on my web site. The teacher most responsible for getting our school to switch is a high-energy type who worked herself to death, and she wanted to mellow out the atmosphere of her work days and thought the A/B schedule would do that. And it actually does mellow out the teachers' workday a bit -- the kids are less hyper and rambunctious because they spend more time in each class and less time getting up and moving from one class to the next. But, like I wrote about, it is not as conducive to effective learning as a daily class schedule.
126. arkymalarky - 10/2/1999 11:52:44 AM
My husband teaches with a 90 min daily block of three classes and a prep and he loves it. If his school didn't put so much on teachers outside the classroom his situation would be perfect. His basic schedule and load are really nice.
We're thinking about going to block scheduling, and the main thing I've wondered about is whether I can fit in what I've been having students read in a full year to one semester, even with class reading time.
127. phillipdavid - 10/2/1999 12:23:22 PM
Arky,
"Block" means several different things. I use it connote classes which are integrated together, so that you have the same kids for several different subjects (which are integrated together) for an extended period of time. There are a ot of advantages and benefits to this.
The sort of "block" you referenced, the half year block where you have kids for long classes in one subject for only half the year, is a big mistake! Even the SAT administrators have come out against it. They have seen that students using the half-year block schedule do not score as well as students in full year classes.
IMO, "block" classes should be an integration of several subjects --like History and Literature, Language Arts and Literature, Math and Science, or like what I had in years past(Literature/Speech/Language Arts/History), not the idea that you have kids for half a year and try to cover the same material that you would normally do in a whole year by having longer classes. That is just stupid, imo.
128. arkymalarky - 10/2/1999 1:56:10 PM
Block only refers to time here, afaik, and it is definitely a growing trend. The only school I know that integrates courses is ASMS and they don't do it with math, which I believe would be a mistake. The reason my husband likes it as a math teacher is that there's much more thinking time and time to help students understand difficult concepts and work with them, even though they leave at semester, and they stay more mentally fresh having the course for a semester. They can also fit in more math before graduation.
129. phillipdavid - 10/2/1999 2:58:32 PM
Arky,
Take a quick look at this page which shows a summary of a large study done in British Columbia. (I post this page because it has graphs which make it quick and esay to see the data.) It reflects the sort of research about student achievement levels that I have seen reported in other studies. Kids in a semester block class consistently underperform those in year-long classes.
130. arkymalarky - 10/2/1999 3:19:38 PM
Thanks for the study, PD. I'll have to take some time to look at it more closely. It seems it should be fairly easy for any school to compare their students' performance with and without block scheduling, since it's still fairly new and the past students' scores and grades from both regular and block for many years back are very accessible.
131. DanDillon - 10/2/1999 8:12:34 PM
I work at a school with a half-block arrangement. It's a very unintelligent design, as far as I'm concerned, and it reeks of experimentalism. We have "regular" 7-period days on Mon., Tues., and Wed., and then we have an extended "block" schedule on Thurs. (periods 2, 4 & 6 + "academic resource time") and Fri. (periods 1, 3, 5 & 7). These last two days of the week are not used for interdisciplinary work, as pd rightly suggests longer periods might be used, but instead teachers generally treat them as two "regular" periods lumped together.
The students don't appreciate the schedule either, seeing as how it is new this year and they've had too many administrative changes foisted upon them already (ID badges, new hall passes, required planners/assignment notebooks, new lunchrom policies, among others). But we do the best we can, and we grow stronger in the face of adversity.
All of this really makes me want to look for a teaching position in the district where I live even more. (Hell, I've already reactivated my application file there for the 00-01 school year.)
132. DanDillon - 10/2/1999 8:14:45 PM
Of course, there are countless things that go on at my building that I'm extremely grateful for....
133. arkymalarky - 10/2/1999 9:37:29 PM
I hate the control freak mentality of some school administrations, especially when it's obvious that what they're doing is designed to appear forward-thinking and "proactive"(don't you love that word? We hear it a lot from the state ed dept), yet policies are more difficult to follow, more time consuming, and less efficient, and there's no apparent rhyme or reason to them. Often they change from year to year leaving teachers and students frustrated and confused. One reason I've stayed where I have so long is that the administration there has more common sense than anywhere else I've worked, and it's reflected in the fact that our standardized test scores are generally higher than any school in the area and our kids are really good. We have problems, and there are things we need to work on and change, but the basic approach is sound and has served a relatively poor and very small community well.
134. phillipdavid - 10/3/1999 12:26:28 PM
Dan
What things go in your building that you are grateful for?
135. arkymalarky - 10/3/1999 4:08:59 PM
Well, I have to take back what I said my husband felt about block scheduling wrt math. That was last year when he first tried it. Today I was talking to him about it and our discussion in here, and he feels a lot differently about how good it is for the students, because he said he can't fit in what they need in a semester and any days missed hurt more than in a year long class. He still likes it for selfish reasons, but he agrees it's not good for students, and what he thought were plusses haven't really benefited the kids that he can see.
136. ChristiPeters - 10/3/1999 9:51:30 PM
Are any of you familiar with "Future Problem Soving"?
All I know from my daughter's school is that it is some sort of academic competition in problem solving.
137. arkymalarky - 10/3/1999 10:06:22 PM
I'm familiar with it. They compete as part of enrichment a lot in AR. I don't really know anything specific about it, though.
138. Angel-Five - 10/3/1999 10:12:20 PM
Would you, or would you not, send your child to a Montessori school if you had the chance to do so for free?
139. CalGal - 10/3/1999 10:15:19 PM
What does "free" have to do with it? Or are you just removing money as a consideration?
I sent Spawn to a Montessori school for pre-school.
140. ChristiPeters - 10/3/1999 10:18:26 PM
arkymalarky -
Yes, that's all I know, too. This will be Lil' Darlin's second year doing FPS and I sure wish the school would provide me with more info. I think I'll do a web search and see what I can dig up. I'll let y'all know what I find out. In the meantime, if anyone else knows something more specific - please share!
141. ChristiPeters - 10/3/1999 10:27:57 PM
Well, that was hard. Here is their overview:
Opening doors to student imaginations since 1974, the Future Problem Solving Program offers new and exciting learning paths. Discovering rich and varied ways of thinking, students experience the excitement of creative thinking and the thrill of resolving difficult problems with unique solutions when they participate in FPSP.
...
The program works effectively and simply. Four-member teams learn and utilize the FPSP Six-Step Process supported by a FPSP coach. Our six-step foundation to building dynamic, creative thinking processes include:
1. brainstorming topic-related challenges
2. identifying an underlying problem
3. brainstorming potential solutions to the underlying problem
4. developing criteria to judge solutions
5. evaluating all solutions to determine the best solution
6. describing the best solution to develop an action plan
Applying the six-steps to three annually determined problem topics, student teams write and mail possible solutions at school year intervals to our evaluators who provide valuable feedback. Receptive to varying skill levels, we offer competitive and non-competitive programs.
Here's the website: FPSP
142. ChristiPeters - 10/3/1999 10:29:07 PM
I guess I should look first and ask last. I still would like the viewpoint of some educators out there on the value of this program.
143. ChristiPeters - 10/3/1999 10:30:47 PM
hmmmm...
My link doesn't work (I'm not surprised). Let me try again:
FPSP
144. ChristiPeters - 10/3/1999 10:31:32 PM
that's better.
sorry I don't know how to make it open in a separate window yet.
145. ChristiPeters - 10/5/1999 10:06:32 AM
ok, never mind
146. phillipdavid - 10/5/1999 10:39:26 PM
Added a few words about the parent conferences I had yesterday and today in my diary (see link in this thread's butterscotch bar).
147. phillipdavid - 10/5/1999 10:40:49 PM
Christi,
Checked out your link. It's not something I ever participated in, so I don't have anything useful to say. But they do have a very nicely designed website!
148. ChristiPeters - 10/6/1999 9:15:45 AM
phillipdavid -
Thanks for checking it out. I like your diary, btw.
149. ChristiPeters - 10/8/1999 10:02:32 AM
geeeez...
did I kill the thread?
150. phillipdavid - 10/8/1999 12:02:11 PM
I have been posting n my diary, Christi.
Had an interesting comment from our principal during our bi-weekly staff meeting yesterday morning. He made it a point to explain to the staff what the school counslor's job is -- to work with the kids. I got the impression that our counselor has been beset by numerous staff memebers coming into her office unloading on her, using her as a valve to vent their problems and frustrations -- whether personal or work related.
My mom is a therapist, and she has told me about several clients of hers in the past who are middle school teachers. Several of them, apparently, were literally on the edge of a nervous breakdown. Mostly older women who couldn't seem to cope with the nature of today's adolescent -- unruly, bellligerent, obnoxious, recalcitrant, uppity, vulgar, disrespectful (their description, not mine; my mom said the kids seem to be walking caricatures of MTV videos)-- and the frenzy of their school's schedule which had about 180 kids walking into their rooms each day.
Also saw an interesting local news report last night. My state has seen a sharp increase in the numbers of students enrolling in suburban schools, and a decrease in the number of kids in the big city schools. One teacher interviewed said that she has seen a marked difference in the type of kids and parents who have been enrolling in her suburban school the last few years. Many more immigrant children, and many more parents who are truly involved with their kids' eduction -- even many more parents who actually request to volunteer in the classroom. She was smiling and obviously happy with this state of affairs. The news reporter said it appears that the baby boom generation is apparently moving into the suburbs, as are many of the state's new immigrants.
151. phillipdavid - 10/8/1999 12:06:17 PM
I am currently enjoying a non-contract day. Got to sleep in 'till 7:30 this morning.
But I am now wondering if there is something wrong with me. I am planning on driving to school to work on some lesson plans, and then go to a class about reading across the curriculum at our local ESD (Education Service District) this afternoon. What a way to spend a day off! Maybe I am just getting old, and have reached a state where I am just what I am.
152. arkymalarky - 10/8/1999 7:11:50 PM
Must be nice, PD. Just wait until I get my deer day!
I had the most hilarious day at work. I teach in a small school, and I mentioned in the Language thread that we have a number of exchange students who are classified as seniors. They're at various levels wrt their English. We had the senior play today, and most of them had roles, and they did a great job. It was a silly comedy, similar to just about every other small school senior play I've ever seen, and the story involved monsters who run a haunted hotel, so the kids were dressed as different kinds of monsters. I can't imagine that any of the exchange students have anything like that in their own countries, and by the time they get through the Halloween Carnival, deer season, homecoming and the parade, the prom, graduation, and the senior trip, there's no telling what they'll have to say about American schools when they get home. We're certainly giving them the total rural school experience.
153. joezan - 10/9/1999 8:16:49 AM
How do other states determine school funding? Here's an interesting little situation which has come to a head at my facility, where the school of 40 juveniles is run by the local ISD.
We use the "4th-Friday" count, wherein the total attendance numbers on the 4th Friday of each semester (although this last one was on a Wednesday?) are averaged together to determine next year's funding - over $5000 per student.
Well, this situation has always flown beneath our radar since:
a) We're always full, and, under court-order, never over-full;
b) Kids in juvie don't have a choice - they have to attend our school.
So, it's always been a given...we get our check for $200,000-some-odd every year from the state to run our school. But last year, when we were celebrating the nearly total elimination of the gang problem in our county (due to our biggest city's winning of a grant for federal Weed-n-Seed monies a couple of years ago), and the subsequent drastic drop in gang-related arrests, the system's down-side really hit home.
(cont'd)...
154. joezan - 10/9/1999 8:35:00 AM
...(cont'd from #153):
Because the average of our 4th-Friday counts for last year was only 34 - of a possible 40, we got slammed hard. We lost over 15% of our school funding - because law enforcement finally had the funding to do their job!
So, this year we vowed to do things differently. In the battle for state money, which pits school against school, and results in the absolutely humiliating scene of schools bringing in all sorts of special entertainment and offering gourmet lunches on 4th-Fridays, we knew we had to do something drastic...
"But, how to lure kids in to lock-up?", we pondered. Nothing came to mind. So the decision was made for us - from higher-up.
(cont'd)...
155. joezan - 10/9/1999 9:01:30 AM
...(cont'd from #154):
At any given time, even in a county this small, there are dozens of teens walking around who have outstanding pick-up orders (juvie warrants) for their arrest and lock up. Most of these are for petty stuff - failing to show for a probation meeting, dirty urine screen, etc. Eventually, of course, they answer to the charges. Usually they are reported to the probation staff by the schools, which keep a list of wanted kids, and which can't wait to get them out of there.
...but we have NEVER gotten any such calls on a 4th-Friday - even on kids who have serious charges to answer for. In fact, the kids have figured out that if they are wanted, school is the safest place to be on the 4th-Friday.
Anyway, this year the probation staff were ordered to go out on "sweeps" for two nights prior to the 4th-Friday count. And did they ever respond! On the count day, we were over capacity by 5. If the remaining count days are anything like this, our school will be rolling in dough next year.
(cont'd)...
156. joezan - 10/9/1999 9:13:32 AM
And, now that the dust has settled and the schools are recovering from their busiest time of the year - hey...it's alot of work finding the proper entertainment and catering for the big bash! - and the schools are tallying their 4th-Friday attendance counts, the calls are coming in hourly to our school liaison from the attendance officers;
"What do you mean, Johnny was in lock-up on count day? We have him in school that day, and we're counting him. You can fight with the state over this..."
Our school liaison, who is also our senior teacher, reports that he has been challenged in this manner on well over half the kids who were in juvie on that day, and he isn't even finished reconciling the counts with all the schools in the county yet.
Is this 4th-Friday farce not disgusting? Is it any more or less farcical than other methods?
157. phillipdavid - 10/9/1999 11:46:33 AM
Average daily attendance.
158. PsychProf - 10/11/1999 2:29:03 PM
159. ChristiPeters - 10/11/1999 2:40:35 PM
PsychProf -
IMHO:
If the parents are footing the bill - then the parents should be told.
If the student is independent/paying their own way - the parents should not be told.
Told - refers to any campus violation which is 'written up'.
Of course that totally ignores the wquestion of how the University would know who's paying.
Hmmmmm....
sticky
How about this - if the parents ask, they should be told.
You know, I think I'm going to think about this a bit more. I'm not sure if my first, knee-jerk, paranoid, over-protective Mom reaction (see above) is the 'right' way to go.
160. Buck Mulligan - 10/12/1999 10:56:16 AM
I'm not sure that parents should be told about disciplinary issues. If the situation was critical, for example if a drug problem was threatening a student's health, then perhaps it's time to contact the family. Even then I would expect the student to give consent first. College students are adults and should be treated as adults.
161. CalGal - 10/12/1999 6:36:42 PM
I don't think parents should be told, period. It really doesn't matter if they are paying or not--that's their choice to pay, given that their kid is over the age of 18.
If the kid breaks the law, that is also their business. The school can notify the police, but not the parents.
162. PsychProf - 10/13/1999 10:49:10 AM
Cal...what if the morgue "notifies" the parents...what do I say for myself if I was aware of a situation that put the student at serious risk and then cited the law as a cover for my secretive position. For me the case is this...if I determine the student is at risk, and this is my call, I do what I can to help. The law can do what it wants to me...
163. wabbit - 10/13/1999 11:00:49 AM
Cal,
I wasn't 18 yet when I went to college. If Leon Botstein had his way, neither would most others. Should you make the determination based on whether the kid is in college, or based on age?
164. Buck Mulligan - 10/13/1999 1:19:29 PM
I'm not sure if this is an area where the law has much to say. We are not talking about releasing legally privileged information. And quite frankly, I would not release legally privileged information.
If a student is in immediate danger, contact the parents. But a routine disciplinary matter does not warrant contacting the parents. Let's give the student, 18 or not, the opportunity to take responsibility for his or her own actions.
165. PsychProf - 10/13/1999 1:49:48 PM
Buck...did you read the link? Please comment on "drugs or alcohol"...and variations of problems within. EG...you know a student uses cocaine and or heroine(i.e. speedballs)....not "caught yet"...turn the cheek as a Prof?...would you want to know as a parent?
166. CalGal - 10/13/1999 2:04:15 PM
Wabbit--age is the determining factor. Although if I were a 16-year-old going to college, I'd probably do what I could to be declared--what is that called? Legal independent? Independent minor? I forget.
PP--Would you contact the parents of a 28-year-old who happened to be going to school and was using drugs? Probably not. You reach the age of majority, that's how it works. Frankly, I'd sue the college if they revealed information about me and I was over the age of 18. I wonder how they get away with it?
167. PsychProf - 10/13/1999 2:10:51 PM
Cal...I fully understand that I open myself up to legal scantions if I try to help someone in my way....no good deed goes unpunished. It is just very hard for me to look the other way for a "young" person....I just see a "teen" in the age and this is different than 26, at least for me.
168. Buck Mulligan - 10/13/1999 2:12:52 PM
I read the link. It's not clear to me that you did from your last post.
You start with a very extreme case: a student who is speedballing. This kid is in danger, although realistically there is little chance of helping him. He may wind up in jail or the hospital very soon. He is probably dropping out of school, so the college won't have much chance to deal with him. If he winds up in the hospital and he has listed his parents as an emergency contact, they get contacted. If he goes to jail, he's pretty much on his own.
Now let's look at a more mild case: A student who is getting in trouble because of drinking. Somebody from health services needs to sit down with her and get her to seek help. She may want to contact her parents herself, and maybe we'll encourage her to do so, but the decision is hers.
Very common case: underage kid with a beer at a party. Alcohol causes a lot of problems for young people, and it may be a problem for this guy, but we don't know that yet. Don't contact the parents. If I were a parent, (I'm not.) I would not particularly want to be contacted.
Let's keep in mind that when I was in college a few years ago, the school did not even know how to contact my parents. I had no reason to tell them. If the school had told me that they would contact my parents without my consent, I would have had a problem with that.
169. PsychProf - 10/13/1999 2:24:39 PM
Buck...I not only read the link, but I live it on a daily basis. So, fuck you to. I simply wanted to discuss the issue with those interested. Clearly, the easy answer is to suggest health services to the student, and go home.
170. CalGal - 10/13/1999 2:33:04 PM
Prof,
It might seem legit to you, I understand. But we set the age of 18 as the legal age of majority. As such, I think the best thing you can do is respect that limit. Not only is it the best thing to do legally, I think it is the best way to respect the student. You don't know their situation, their circumstances, or their parents. How do you know that telling them is the right thing to do? It is conceivable that you could do irreparable harm. And given that it is by definition an invasion of privacy--one that you admit you wouldn't do based on your own internal definition of when you think the student is old enough--why take that chance?
All of these examples (Buck's, I mean) of egregious vs. questionable situations are pretty much besides the point--or should be. Like it or not, the parent can't attach the ability to invade their legal majority's privacy to their decision to pay for the kid's college. It's a binary decision on their part--pay or not pay, understanding that the kid is of age.
171. Buck Mulligan - 10/13/1999 2:34:16 PM
Then you know very well that a student who is having problems with alcohol or other drugs can only be helped if he or she chooses to accept the help.
I've already said that a student in danger should be helped, and that includes contacting the people the student has identified as emergency contacts. But the schools in that news story are going farther than that. They're contacting parents anytime there is a disciplinary violation. I say that's going too far.
172. Buck Mulligan - 10/13/1999 2:37:59 PM
Also, why are college students different than young people who do not go to college? Some things are obvious. When you live in a dorm, the institution that runs the dorm can set reasonable rules for you. I don't think contacting your family every time there is a problem is reasonable.
173. CalGal - 10/13/1999 2:41:44 PM
Here is a suggestion:
The school provide a form for students under the age of 21, authorizing them to notify the people on the list in the case of illegal activity.
The student can sign it or not. They don't sign it, the school doesn't notify.
Of course, the student doesn't sign it, the parents may choose not to pay. This will allow a student to make the choice, but give the parent a means of withholding funds if their kid doesn't see fit to notify them.
174. CalGal - 10/13/1999 2:42:44 PM
Actually, a better solution. Anytime the person who is financially responsible is not the student, regardless of age, the form must be signed. Yes, I like that better.
175. PsychProf - 10/13/1999 2:43:22 PM
Buck...for sure that is too far. Cal...I understand that my own motivations may actually do more harm than good. I have to make a call here and my call is to do whatever I can to help...for me, the wrath of a privacy adherent is better than the responsibilty ignored for the quality of student life.BTW... I an not a missionary...I am talking about legit situations(yes...my call) that parents would clearly want to know about.
176. Buck Mulligan - 10/13/1999 2:47:25 PM
Cal,
How do we know who is financially responsible? And what if the responsible party is not a parent?
177. PsychProf - 10/13/1999 2:50:35 PM
In case you are worried that college student privacy is being attacked....don't. Very few, beyond lip service... care about the students...and we have plenty of laws to hide behind. Teach and go home...fuck'em...it's their problem. But fail to pay tuition and you will see the gears of academia spring into action...
178. CalGal - 10/13/1999 2:52:34 PM
PP,
My point is that it really doesn't matter if the parents want to know about it. Their "kid" is a legal adult. I understand you're not a missionary.
Buck,
Doesn't matter. Imagine if you had a scholarship. The scholarship committee could demand a signed notification, too.
In other words, the only reason this is an issue at all is because parents are footing the bill and believe they should be notified if Jr (who is a legal adult) is acting out. They have no right to know. It would also be a horrendous invasion in the case where the kid is paying. The parents would be notified? Nonsense.
So I would rather solve the problem by addressing it as an issue of "who pays". The student has the right to waive privacy rights, and the person paying could then make the waiver mandatory--whether they are a parent or a financial institution paying the bill.
179. Buck Mulligan - 10/13/1999 3:02:50 PM
Well, I'll accept that it's not completely unreasonable for a student to waive some privacy rights in return for receiving money. I received scholarships from a number of sources. It was a condition of most of the scholarships that I had to make satisfactory academic progress in order to have the scholarships renewed. But a disciplinary violation does not necesarily threaten academic progress. So I'll agree that a parent or other party can set some conditions when they're handing out money, but they may be less strict than notification of every event.
Also the issue remains, even if the school can contact somebody, when should they? How much should we expect the school to do? I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for notifying these parties. I'd rather deal with the student.
180. CalGal - 10/13/1999 3:12:49 PM
Buck,
I think it should be a very clear line--illegal acts only, for example. Although you could make it other things: drop in grades, vandalism, whatever. SHould be spelled out, though.
181. ChristiPeters - 10/13/1999 5:28:24 PM
CalGal - I like your solution.
As a paranoid-over-protective-Mom, my knee-jerk reaction is "God, yes, I want to be notified!" However, two seconds later the sense of the Mom who knows the goal is to have an independent responsible adult kicks in.
What you came up with in posts 173 - 174 works for me.
182. CalGal - 10/13/1999 5:31:16 PM
Christi,
It is, in fact, so elegant I'm amazed no one has thought of it before. Covers all the bases, eliminates lawsuits. Perhaps this is actually the norm?
183. ChristiPeters - 10/13/1999 5:35:53 PM
Naw, much too sensible.
184. ranheim - 10/13/1999 6:07:18 PM
Could this be generational?
My youngest is 30. I would have been hacked off had the colleges NOT notified my wife and/or I should one of our three been in trouble.
We made all three send home "report cards"; otherwize the money stops and you can support yourself. So we had the academic end covered.
185. CalGal - 10/13/1999 6:12:19 PM
Ran,
You might have been hacked off, but if your kids were over 18, I'm not sure there is much you could have done about it. I certainly hope not--as I said, I think a university should be sued for notifying parents of students who are legal adults.
It is only generational in the sense that people with kids older than 48 might not understand it--before that time (and I didn't do the math, so I'm guessing), the age of majority was 21.
186. Buck Mulligan - 10/14/1999 8:30:19 AM
My perspective is different. I spent four years in the army before I went to college. If I had died, the army would not have told my parents unless I had specifically arranged for it. I expected, and received, the same treatment when I went to college. Well, the same treatment with respect to notifying my parents, not the same treatment in general.
187. ranheim - 10/14/1999 10:26:24 AM
Cal
I was referring to us parents born in the 30s and 40s. I suspect that our ideas of "child rearin'" are quite different from those born in later decades. Only one example is the attitude toward Benjamin Spock. I, already an M.D., thought his suggestions on the simple things : diarrhea; rashes; low grade temp; drippy noses; etc. were quite full of common sense. Something the I had done in the past; some advice that I would give out in the future.
But, I thought he was a TOTAL FOOL when is came to discipline. When my son and his wife send one of their two to a corner, I cringe. What the hell is time out? Go to your room (when that room is chock-a-block of their favorite toys) : what is this? It ain't discipline.
What is so wrong with a pat - some more forceful than others - right on the poo-poo (that is the butt and I believe it comes from a Rosemary Clooney song).
188. ChristiPeters - 10/14/1999 10:31:03 AM
While I might agree that being confined to a room full of toys isn't much of a punishment (depending on the kid), being forced to sit in a chair facing the corner for "time out" worked well for my daughter. I am forever getting compliments about her good manners, exemplary behavior, and strong moral sense. Spanking is not a punishment used in my house.
189. ranheim - 10/14/1999 10:51:23 AM
On another subject.
Remember the words "de jure" and "de facto" segregation? And there was one hell of a difference should your state have practiced de jure segregation. The lawyers among us will correct me should I be wrong, but, in my "civilian" mind de jure meant that there were actual laws on the books of the state; de facto meant that it had been common place practice -but, there was an absence of law.
In practice, that meant that the Old Confederacy was guilty of de jure segregation and Boston, which may have practiced worse segregation than anywhere in the old south, had committed only de facto segregation as they had nothing on the law books.
Headline in this morning's Baton Rouge Advocate : 'School Tax Will Go To Judge As Is'. Previously, any LA school board had to submit detailed plans if it planned to do anything new; or change anything in a substantial manner. The tax plan mentioned in the headlines had to do with 4 new schools + an increase in the current millage (spelling) on the current school tax. That tax projected to raise an added $17 million to the coffers of the school board.
Federal judges are said to read the election results of presidential elections and those that bring senators and congressmen to Washington, D.C. Are the federal judges going to relax their heavy-handed hold on the school boards of the south? They have been under constant criticism for years. There have even been elections where the opposition side won (famous cases have to do with pot in the West) More recently, death threats. The death threats may have been some of the reason for the new federal law outlining what one can and cannot do when criticising elected and appointed federal officials.
Could this be a trend? Getting the hated Federal Judge out of local politics!!
190. Buck Mulligan - 10/14/1999 11:07:47 AM
Certainly there are cases where state and federal courts have intervened in local government issues, generally when the local governments had established a record of behaving unlawfully. Sometimes the court opts to continue supervision of the local government agency for some time. This sounds like one of those cases. I don't think that courts are likely to stop doing this anytime soon. For example, in New Hampshire the state supreme court reached the very controversial conclusion that the existing methods of funding public schools was unconstitutional. Recently, some of the judges came us for review by the state senate. All were retained, in spite of the unpopularity of the education ruling.
191. arkymalarky - 10/15/1999 10:19:33 PM
It's kind of funny that the Mote teachers have been pretty much absent from the ed thread the last few days. I'm having a really good year so far, though I feel I'm not getting enough accomplished and I need to get more organized. I don't know if that will ever happen, though. My kids don't think so.
192. phillipdavid - 10/15/1999 10:27:50 PM
Arky,
I am getting a tremendous amount accomplished, and I am very well organized (even have my lesson plans up on my class webpage), but I am plum tuckered out when I get home. I haven't been active in any thread for at least a week, and haven't written up my diary for the last three days -- but I will do so tonight.
193. arkymalarky - 10/15/1999 10:40:21 PM
Good, PD! I knew you'd been busy, but I've missed your diary entries.
On organization, I'm a lot better than I used to be, but I'll never be what I'd like to be. On accomplishing, I'm covering a lot, but I really feel like I'm behind where I need to be at this time of year. The yearbook contributes a whole lot to that feeling. We've had a lot going on this past week, so hopefully I'll catch up the next couple of weeks. I've noticed over the years that everything sort of evens out and I usually get in everything I want to cover by the end.
So far in Sr English we've read about half of The Iliad, three books of The Odyssey, three Greek plays, and some short selections from the Bible and Ovid's Metamorphoses. I'm hoping to start Inferno in two weeks at most, but I thought we'd be on it by the end of this nine weeks, so I'm about a week behind. In world hist I started on Rome this week, and in Amer hist I started on Washington's administration. My jr and soph English classes have gone at a pretty good pace. We're working on poetry in soph Eng and just finished King Lear in jr Eng.
194. arkymalarky - 10/15/1999 10:54:00 PM
I love your lesson plans format. That reminds me, I forgot to turn mine in before I left. That's what I mean by disorganized. I'm hoping I can get some things done on my class website when things slow down. At least I got it started.
195. phillipdavid - 10/16/1999 1:53:55 AM
Arky,
I am somewhat flabbergasted by the amount of reading your English class has done. Wow! My literature class has only read one book so far, and it was only 127 pages long! But my lit class only meets every other day, and I also do speech in there, and Sept was full of 4 day work weeks, and Oct had parent conferences. (Do I sound like a real teacher yet, making up excuses why we haven't accomplished more in class?).
My Am History class hasn't even gotten to the American Revolution yet either. We are still doing life in the early colonies; right now we are studying slavery. Yesterday we read a very disturbing diary entry of a man who worked as tutor on a plantation, and he reported on various diabolical methods his employer had devised to punish slaves and to get them to reveal secrets. His methods were most disturbing...very sadistic...but very efficient. They made the whipping of Kunta Kinte in "Roots" look like child's play. As a matter of fact, the diary reported that the employer said that his slaves would just laugh at getting whipped -- grin and bear it, as it were -- so he had to develop more sinister methods.
Look for more diary entries tomorrow -- turns out I wasn't up to it tonight afterall.
196. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 8:17:07 AM
Well, this is my senior group and they've been through a year of advanced English already. Next year's group will have been through two years. You're working a great deal on building foundations in skills and I'm assuming they already have them, since it's an AP class. If they don't, they really don't need to be there (and some of them don't), but need what the other English class provides, which still includes a great deal of reading and writing. The textbook we use is a college level Norton Anthology adapted for high school AP classes. When I taught 8th grade English it was similar to what you describe, though I wasn't nearly as good at it.
WRT history, our 8th grade history only goes through the Civil War, so the pace is somewhat slower, though they have to teach AR history, too. And don't forget, I started earlier. Our first school day was Aug 19.
The slave tutor's diary sounds like it would be very effective with students. One thing I really like about my Am hist textbook is that it provides excerpts of numerous firsthand perspectives throughout.
197. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 8:20:17 AM
By "similar to what you describe" I meant the level of difficulty and pace, and to some degree the content, though it sounds to me like you do more than I did. It's been a few years since I've had the middle school experience.
198. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 10:52:45 AM
I just received this forward:
"Let me see if I've got this right. You want me to
go into that room with
all those kids, and fill their every waking
moment with a love for
learning. Not only that, I'm to instill a sense of
pride in their
ethnicity, behaviorally modify disruptive
behavior, and observe them
for signs of abuse, drugs, and T-shirt messages.
I am to fight the war on drugs and sexually
transmitted diseases,
check their backpacks for guns and raise their
self-esteem. I'm to teach
them patriotism, good citizenship, sportsmanship
and fair play, how and
where to register to vote, how to balance a
checkbook and how to apply
for
a job, but I am never to ask if they are in this
country illegally.
(cont)
199. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 10:54:36 AM
"I am to check their heads occasionally for lice,
maintain a safe
environment, recognize signs of potential
antisocial behavior, offer
advice, write letters of recommendation for
student employment and
scholarships, encourage respect for the cultural
diversity of
others, and oh yeah, teach, always making sure
that I give the girls in
my
class fifty percent of my attention. I'm required
by my contract to be
working, on my own time, summer and evenings and
at my own expense
towards
additional certification, advance certification
and a master's degree, to
sponsor the cheerleaders or the sophomore class
and after school I am to
attend committee and
faculty meetings and participate in staff
development training to
maintain my
current certification and employment status. I am
to collect data and
maintain all records to support and document our
building's progress in
the
selected state mandated program to "assess and
upgrade educational
excellence
in the public schools." I am to be a paragon of
virtue larger than life,
such that my very presence will awe my students
into being obedient and
respectful of authority. I am to pledge allegiance
to supporting family
values, a return to the basics, and my current
administration. I am to
incorporate technology into the learning, but
monitor all web
sites for appropriateness while providing a
personal one-on-one
relationship
with each student. I am to decide who might be
potentially dangerous
and/or
liable to commit crimes in school or who is
possibly being abused and I
can
be sent to jail for not mentioning these
suspicions to those in
authority.
(cont)
200. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 10:55:04 AM
(concl)
I
am to make sure ALL students pass the state and
federally mandated
testing
and all classes, whether or not they attend school
on a regular basis or
complete any of the work assigned. I am to
communicate frequently with
each
student's parent by letter, phone, newsletter,
and grade card. I'm to do all of this with just a
piece of chalk, a
computer,
a few books, a bulletin board, a 45 minute or less
plan time, and a big
smile
on a starting salary that qualifies my family for
food stamps in many
states.
Is that all? And you want me to do all of this and
expect me to do it
without
praying?"
201. ChristiPeters - 10/16/1999 11:34:39 AM
arkymalarky -
Thanks for posting that. I am going to enclose it with a thank you card to all my daughter's teachers and send it on to all my friends and relatives who are teachers.
&:0D
202. phillipdavid - 10/16/1999 11:49:45 AM
Arky,
Traditionally, my Am History class has only gone through the Civil War too. I am actually supposed to get them up to about 1900 now, and since they have a state standards social studies test now in March, I am supposed to be much further along than I am. What this means is that I am supposed to start the year with the Constitution and assume that the kids got what they needed about colonial America in 5th and 6th grade. But the elementary teachers do such a poor job teaching history that I would be seriously negligent in not spending the time to build a solid foundation for rest of their study in Am history. I am actually lucky if I get through the Constitution by Christmas.
My textbook also has numerous first hand excerpts. Others wanted to change textbooks last year, but I fought to keep what we had just because the first hand references are so cool. I have The Story of America by Garraty, published by Holt, Rinehart, and Winston. It's an excellent text.
203. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 12:57:07 PM
Hey!!! That's my book!! Isn't it great? It was the most expensive on the adoption list and I told my admins I just had to have it. The last printing is '93 and I ordered it, my second ed, because the most recent eds of other books paled in comparison. When I asked the company why they didn't offer another Garraty ed, they said they couldn't work out getting him back.
You use it in the 8th grade? I use it in 11th. My college Am hist text was by him, also, and I still have it. In fact, the first thing I saw was his name when I ordered the first ed about eight years ago.
204. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 1:11:34 PM
You're welcome, Christi. Actually, I thought it was too cynical and overstated, but it makes some good points, especially that expectations of what teachers should accomplish on their jobs considering what they have to work with can be overwhelming. If I felt as the writer of that piece evidently does about teaching, though, I would have gotten out long ago. Unfortunately, it can happen to the best of teachers if they don't maintain a balance and learn to function realistically within the system.
205. Aldavis - 10/16/1999 6:19:39 PM
arky
I went to Amazon intending to buy Garraty's book. $90.75. Wow, your kids get nothing but the best. Does it have a copy of the Constitution? Is that provided to your students. That is probably a stupid question, since I get the idea you are an excellent teacher. Just in case it is not encluded, I would be happy to buy one for each of your students and have it shipped to you directly. Keep up the good work.
206. MichaelStevenson - 10/16/1999 7:15:54 PM
Hello. TheMote is really a cool little forum. I stumbled into TheMote during the chat session with Joseph Duemer.
There's an article in the recent New Yorker 10/16 titled ANNALS OF EDUCATION Schools Are Her Business by John Cassidy that may be of interest. It's about Caroline Minter Hoxby, who, according to this article, "attempts to show that public schools perform better when they face competition, that class size makes no difference to how students perform, and that teachers' unions make schools less productive,..."
Speaking as a recent graduate at UC Berkeley, classroom size certainly does make a difference. Teachers can't handle the workload and consequently, they are relying more and more on objective, multiple choice exams as opposed to written essays. As for Unions--to my knowledge, no teacher has received a "raise" through the kind graces of the Administration.
207. Aldavis - 10/16/1999 8:58:58 PM
MichaelStevenson
Since you are a recent graduate of U.C., may I assume you are still in your 20's? I taught in Calif. from 1965-73, and except for a few areas, unions had no effect on wages or anything else, and yet I got many of them in my eight years. If one is talking about Universities, where classes are taught by graduate students working under a Prof. and class size can be in the 100's, you are certainly right. Perhaps the article was talking about high schools and a difference in class size of say 40 as to 20.
208. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 9:00:00 PM
What a generous gesture, Al! And thank you for the kind compliment. I've worked with and known a lot of people who I truly felt were better teachers and who put more time and effort into their jobs than I do, but I really do enjoy teaching. The Garraty book does have the full Constitution and an excellent chapter explaining it, how it's structured, how the government functions under it, etc.
I'll tell you what, if you'll email me at arkym@hotmail.com I'll send you an older version of our book, which is excellent and still very usable, but may be kind of dilapidated. We didn't pay as much as the asking price you quoted, but it was expensive. They've held up better than any other textbooks I've used, though.
209. arkymalarky - 10/16/1999 9:06:41 PM
Welcome to the Mote, Michael! I totally agree on class size based on my own experience. And you're right, at least as far as my feeling, in that it's not so much the number of kids in a room, it's the grading. My students write a lot, but if I had really large classes they would write a lot less.
WRT unions, it depends on the situation. I wouldn't teach in Little Rock without belonging to one (I don't know that I'd teach in Little Rock period, actually), and I've known instances where teachers were glad to have union support with administrative, district, and/or board problems. It's not so much the money, but the protection against the sometimes arbitrary way that teachers are treated. It varies greatly from district to district.
210. phillipdavid - 10/17/1999 12:39:02 AM
Arky,
I reordered the Garraty text last year, but my district ran out of money and I didn't get any new copies!! Pissed me off, let me tell you. We are using books we bought 7 years ago, and many of them are just about worn out. Luckily for me though, I am the only one of the three 8th grade history teachers in my building who really use it every day, or use it extensively. One of the other teachers uses a Title One textbook designed for lower ability students (we have a whole bunch of those!), so my students got the pick of the litter this year. In other words, they are usintg texts that are not too badly worn yet.
My son also used that text when he was in 8th grade. That is when I first saw it (this was the year before I started teaching 8th grade).
The diary entry I told you about is in a companion book to that textbook, and it is called Eyewitness and Others. I have a whole set of those and they are great. You should see if you can get ahold of a set.
Al, my district pays about $56 apiece for the Garraty text. The advantage of bulk contracts, I guess.
211. Stumbo - 10/17/1999 4:55:15 AM
"Teachers can't handle the workload and consequently, they are relying more and more on objective, multiple choice exams as opposed to written essays."
Nice to know that "objective" is now a derogatory term, heh.
212. arkymalarky - 10/17/1999 1:02:45 PM
PD,
What I did on the Garraty books when I reordered and found they weren't going to get any newer editions was to continue to use my older version, which was still in good shape except for the covers, and saved my nice new ones. We're now using the new ones for the second year and the students know they're my pride and joy. When we were using the old ones I let them highlight and mark them and make notations, and they loved that. Some will still get an old one off of the shelf in class to use in addition to the new one. I did the same with my world history books.
I don't know about you, and I think we discussed this before, but I was very unimpressed with the adoption samples I got in social studies last time we were up to readopt. Lots of flash, not a lot of substance or focus, and I found them difficult to follow and absorb because my eyes were pulled in so many directions.
BTW, I've got the teacher package to the Garraty set, including the Eyewitnesses books (one 2 volume set). I really need to make better use of those supplemental materials, because they're also excellent. I went through them all and sorted them this summer, and I'm planning to utilize them a lot more this year.
213. arkymalarky - 10/17/1999 1:17:48 PM
Everybody make sure you check out PD's latest diary entries. I'm really impressed with the amount of energy you put into your classes and the amount you get in return from your kids, PD.
214. phillipdavid - 10/17/1999 7:12:58 PM
Arky,
Thanks for the kind words. I am sure your students work hard for you too.
215. ChristiPeters - 10/17/1999 11:37:23 PM
Arkymalarky - I agree that the message (posts #198-200) do sound like someone who is burned out. However, I know some people who seem to think that their child's teacher is never never doing enough and apparently is also not entitled to a private life either. So, not only am I going to pass this on to my daughter's teachers to let them know I appreciate them, I am going to keep a few copies to give out next time the "teachers aren't doing enough" bitch session starts at the lunch table at work.
As for class size, I am personally convinced that one of the reasons I have been so satisfied with my daughter's education up until now is because her classes have been all 20 kids or less until this year. Even this year, it's 23 kids, which isn't bad.
BTW, I had my first parent-teacher conference on Friday. Lil' Darlin' is reading at an 11th grade level now, but needs work on her critical thinking skills. Luckily, both FPS, and the logic exercises her math teacher are giving her are working that area. I can see when she asks me for help that she is really struggling with this. So, my help consists mostly of a series of leading questions to help her work through a logical reasoning process. This makes LD quite angry as she wants a quicker answer, but I'm holding firm that she gets my help my way or no help. Any suggestions y'all have would be appreciated. Also, if you think I am approaching this the wrong way - please don't hesitate to say so.
216. PsychProf - 10/18/1999 9:04:52 AM
The last sentence of this news clip is relevant for all students...i.e. "and peer"...
217. ChristiPeters - 10/18/1999 12:01:23 PM
Even I experienced that peer pressure and my very bright older brother carefully maintained a B-C average in order to stay popular throughout high school and college.
Sad, isn't it?
218. ranheim - 10/18/1999 2:35:14 PM
My experience with tracking is just the opposite.
As I have mentioned previously (back in that place we are not supposed to mention) that starting in the 10th grade, I was tracked. About 30 (best as I recall we were 150+ seniors) of us went to classes together for 3 years. We took all the "advanced" classes in math; science; english; language; etc. It was thought that we would all go to college and that was true - all in that group did go to college. Again, best as I recall, all of us graduated from college. (This was back in the early '50s).
At that point in my life I was much more interested in basketball. I would have spent still more time shooting hoops had I not had to keep up with my peers. One does not want to look the fool to your fellow classmates. Thus, the studying that I did was due to peer group pressure to obtain high grades so as to keep up with the competition. Seems to me the same would be true today.
But, is that possible? I have heard that the feds; ACLU; NAACP have backed off a little when high achievers are grouped together unofficially. Can this become official policy? If not, why?
219. PsychProf - 10/18/1999 2:48:44 PM
Ranheim...the bible for the "peer" lack of identification with academic role models is 'Beyond The Classroom" by Laurence Steinberg. Tracking still exists, but the intellectual identification within and between "levels" that was characteristic of upwardly mobile schools in years past is a old story long disappeared. Today it is cool to be stupid...and most students try to be cool.
220. CalGal - 10/18/1999 5:14:33 PM
Today it is cool to be stupid...and most students try to be cool.
It's not just among minority students, either, which is why I suspect they will have to look elsewhere for the lower grades.
And, quite frankly, it's not just among students. I think it begins with our incredible reluctance to acknowledge that some kids are just smarter than others. We have no problem stating that certain kids are great athletes or gifted musicians--and giving them the extra training or time that their gifts require.
But say, "Hey, we should give our gifted mathematics students additional time and an accelerated curriculum," and all of a sudden everyone's worried that the other kids will feel inferior.
And then we wonder why all our students want to emulate athletes.
Duh.
221. CalGal - 10/18/1999 5:15:40 PM
I suspect they will have to look elsewhere for the lower grades
make that "for the cause of the lower grades".
and the last "students" should be changed to "kids", while I'm at it.
222. DanDillon - 10/19/1999 8:34:41 PM
It's Tuesday 19 October, and you should watch Frontline tonight.
Okay - back to grading....
223. phillipdavid - 10/19/1999 9:37:48 PM
From the PBS website about tonight's Frontline program:
"Conyers, Georgia is a prosperous bedroom
community just outside Atlanta. FRONTLINE
examines the link between an outbreak of
syphilis among a group of its teenagers and the
well-off community in which they live. The film
reveals a parent's worst nightmare--children as
young as fourteen naming scores of sexual
partners; others telling of binge drinking, drugs
and sex parties. "
224. CalGal - 10/19/1999 9:53:49 PM
I swear, the excess always makes me think of the McMartin case. I have visions of these 14-year olds knowing that their tales will be published and upping the number of partners for effect.
225. DanDillon - 10/20/1999 8:23:31 AM
Turns out last night's episode of Frontline wasn't all that great. More tilted portrayals of troubled teens making lousy decisions. Only difference here was that their regrets were televised -- all in all, a weak, hackneyed cautionary tale.
Bad reccomendation. Unless, of course, you all saw it and have other, more positive reactions....
226. Buck Mulligan - 10/21/1999 10:49:10 AM
Anybody here teaching high school math? I'm curious about a few things, expecially precalculus and calculus instruction.
227. joezan - 10/21/1999 11:19:09 PM
Cal - #220:
But say, "Hey, we should give our gifted mathematics students
additional time and an accelerated curriculum," and all of a sudden
everyone's worried that the other kids will feel inferior.
I hear that!
Are you familiar with the National Science Olympiad? The site is here.
Our local HS, Grand Haven, was kicking butt - won the Nationals 3 times in 4 years (this is a school in a town of 20,000, competing with thousands of entrants). So, they were banned in '95 & '96. No hints of any improprieties...nothing like that.
It simply "wasn't fair" to all the other schools that had worked so hard.
Of course, their first year back they won. This year they placed 4th, I think -guaranteeing they'll be invited back next year, I assume.
228. SpenceMirrlees - 10/21/1999 11:59:14 PM
heard today on CNN:
Kids who were in quality daycare facilities are significantly less likely to be criminals, teenage parents, and sundry other types of scourge to society than kids who weren't. Policy implications were drawn.
What exactly is this supposed to tell us? Does the study give any reason to believe that the result isn't driven by the fact that kids who were in quality daycare facilities are significantly more likely to be in families that (i) are reasonably well off, and (ii) give a damn? The policy implication that "quality daycare would reduce incidence of various social ills" is clearly not supported, as what the study may really imply is that "(i) and (ii) reduce the incidence of various social ills."
Even controlling for income is not enough, as it leaves out parental involvement/concern, at the very least.
229. CalGal - 10/22/1999 1:03:29 AM
What's really irritating is that they never examine the important stuff--parenting behaviors. They never examine the so-so parents--the ones who raise "latchkey" kids whether they are home watching soaps or at work. The ones who don't check up on homework, don't set rules for their kids, don't provide them with the support they need.
I wonder what would happen if they came up with a list of behaviors that would be expected to result in quality kids. Then study all parents without regard for their marital or employment status. See if there's a relationship between parenting behaviors and kid outcome that doesn't rely on the old standbys.
230. Jonesatlaw - 10/22/1999 1:20:22 AM
CalGal- Good post. My experience at our small private school is that I see the same parents at every soccer game, baseball game, class play etc. The majority are attentive to their kids, they encourage them, they set clear standards for behavior and expectations for success. Their kids tend to do well, even those I know who have real problems- ADHD, learning disorders etc.
Behaviors I would anticipate that would predict successful kids:
1. Reading to children,
2. Consistant rules/discipline
3. Regular child centered family activities
4. Acceptance of child as individual
5. Child's needs a priority with parents
231. joezan - 10/22/1999 7:22:57 AM
Jones:
Funny you would mention those things. Well, not funny, but...
I was at a seminar just this past Monday, called "Assets and Resiliencies", which focused on the effects of such things -assets - as you mentioned. What the research behind this theory shows, is that there are about 40 ideal assets - the ones you listed among them -identified as necessary (some - around 12, I think, are essential) for normal development in children and teens.
This is, of course, not new. What was new, was the "Resiliencies" part. This was the first time I had ever seen major, reputable research come at the problems of "at-risk" kids from the other side. By the other side, I mean that this research began with the premise, "Sure - there are lots of hurting kids whom we've always assumed don't stand much chance of "making it", because of their (impoverished, or parent-absent, or drug-abusing family, or what-have-you) homelife. But we know that of the millions of kids in such situations, (and they have done the research that bears this out), over 3/4 of them are productive, responsible citizens by the age of 25. We want to focus on what makes those kids different."
This is where the "Resiliencies" come in. Basically, the resiliencies (about 40 of them, also), are mostly innate, but sometimes taught or provided, coping strategies which "successful" at-risk kids use to overcome the negative circumstances and influences of their young lives.
I have to get going, but I will try to remember to bring the literature home from work and post more tonight.
232. arkymalarky - 10/22/1999 5:18:19 PM
Hi, Buck. My husband's a math teacher. I don't know if he could answer your questions, but if you post what you were curious about, I'll ask him to read and respond. I know he's frustrated with the lack of attention upper maths get where he's taught and he's been unimpressed with the distance-learning calculus courses he's seen.
233. CalGal - 10/22/1999 6:20:10 PM
Jones,
I dunno about reading to children. I think what it really involves is the bonding time. Spawn and I have always bonded with movies. We both consider reading to be a private activity.
I'm also not sure about making the child's needs a priority--particularly not if you let the kid know it. Ditto with "child-centered" activities. I don't these two are required.
2&4 are critical. It is not necessary to have a lot of rules, or to create situations that demand consistency. But parents should enforce the rules they set--for themselves and the children--and if they say they're going to do something (good or bad) they should follow through.
And if you treat a child as an individual, they really don't need all the extra attentions in 1, 3, and 5.
The other thing I don't think parents do often enough is help their children learn, throughout their school career. They tend to leave it to the teachers. Bad idea.
234. phillipdavid - 10/22/1999 11:38:59 PM
Arky,
I have almost completed a month's worth of my online teacher's diary. Two more days and I'll probably call it quits -- I think you're the only one reading it anyway.
First quarter's grades are due next week, so I'll probably end with a summary of my classes' successes and failures wrt their grades. I keep grades on my computer, so it will be fairly easy for me to figure out average grades, and the percentages of As, Bs, etc.
235. joezan - 10/22/1999 11:44:15 PM
More on Assets and Resiliencies
This site has a complete list of the 40 assets necessary for healthy development.
And, here is the site with the list of resiliencies - you need to go to research briefs. There are 7 Resiliency categories, and at the seminar I went to, they were further broken down to 40 more specific ones.
...from the Prevention Online site...
"If the high-risk environment is the family itself, for instance if children are growing up in an alcoholic or drug abusing family, studies suggest that they have a better chance of growing into healthy
adulthood if they:
1. Can learn to do one thing well that is valued by themselves, their friends, and their community;
2. Are required to be helpful as they grow up;
3. Are able to ask for help for themselves;
4. Are able to elicit positive responses from others in their environment;
5. Are able to distance themselves from their dysfunctional families so that the family is not their sole frame of reference;
6. Are able to bond with some socially valued, positive entity, such as the family, school, community groups, or church;
7. Are able to interact with a (perceived to be) caring adult who provides consistent caring responses.
Resiliency factors, along with risk factors, need to be more widely publicized for the use of parents, gatekeepers, and prevention planners. While many of the factors listed are the result of external forces, those factors that may be taught or instilled in children can provide some protection to youths at high risk for alcohol, tobacco, or other drug problems..."
236. SpenceMirrlees - 10/23/1999 3:53:07 AM
Let me guess...
237. SpenceMirrlees - 10/23/1999 3:56:58 AM
Amazing!
Anyway, yes Cal, I would like to see more work done like that, or hear about it if it's being done. I am seriously skeptical of almost every study I hear about relating to public health broadly construed (including child care). Selection bias is a profound problem that can seriously mess up the results, and there is reason to believe not enough attention gets paid to it.
See, those arcane discussions about statistics, the appropriate way to make inferences, they affect us all on a very personal level, because that is how one makes claims about policy initiatives.
Anyway, it's still probably better than anecdotes-only.
238. arkymalarky - 10/23/1999 7:32:14 AM
PD,
I've really enjoyed your diary, and I think the most recent entry about the coach is very interesting. We just got through the first quarter last week and had parent/teacher conferences this week. It's been a great nine weeks, but very busy.
I've noticed that having a daughter the age mine is makes time-balancing very difficult between work and homelife, because she's involved in a lot of things, and since we live in the country it means a lot of time-consuming chauffering in addition to attending the events she participates in. Her school had a dance last Thursday that lasted to 11:00, which means we had to hang around "in town" through a ballgame and the dance and didn't get home until 11:30. If we lived in town and could just run home and come back it wouldn't be any big deal, and we probably should have in that case, but we often use my parents' house as a pitstop. They've been a big help with giving us a landing spot and picking up/dropping off to reduce our town trips, but I still feel swamped all the time and it was the same way last year and will be next year, since she probably won't drive to school until year after next. This hectic running around didn't start until she moved to a bigger jr high school, but she absolutely loves it and is doing very well.
On the subject of children and their environments, one thing that continues to amaze me as a teacher is how so many students whose family backgrounds are an absolute mess continue to come to school with good attitudes and are very conscientious about their work. They make good grades and participate in extracurriculars with little to no family support. I think the nurturing environment of a small school is really helpful to kids like that. They get a lot of individual attention and counseling that would be harder to provide in a large school.
239. joezan - 10/23/1999 11:41:44 AM
arky:
One of the things not mentioned in the seminar, but which I think was convicting many of us (to use a very appropriate "thumper" term), was that when we're working with a very at-risk kid who somehow manages to beat all the odds - and most of us who were there have been around long enough that we've had at least a few of them on our caseloads - we tend to congratulate ourselves, very humbly, of course, on "giving this kid some tools", or, "providing the opportunity for her to succeed", etc.
Now, that wouldn't be so bad. Except that, then, we get all happy with "our" success, and try to apply the same strategies with every kid who we find in similar circumstances. So, every girl that shows up who scores high on our risk assessment (single-parent low-income home, hangs out with the gangs, is sexually active, etc, etc), we "plug in" to our mentor program. Which is a very good program. But, what if this girl already has a positive adult influence in her life...even if it's not a person who has passed our rigorous acceptance standards for mentors?
Or the boy whose family is an absolute disaster -openly criminal, drug-abusing parents who completely neglect him, etc. So he hangs out at the Boys & Girls Club straight from school, till he goes to work till 10pm every night to support his car. Why do we feel compelled to make him and his parent(s), as a condition of his probation, attend family counseling twice a week? Cripes - the kid has enough sense to stay away from a bad environment - why torment him?
Very sobering stuff...
240. DanDillon - 10/23/1999 8:07:38 PM
PP & CG,
A Book Magazine poll from this past August established that 80% of kids aged 14-17 think "being smart is cool." A similar question posed in my classroom confirmed the statistic, albeit gotten from a smaller sample. Now, who ya gonna believe?
pd,
I've got to keep up with your diary, dangnabit!
241. DanDillon - 10/23/1999 8:14:04 PM
pd,
I really enjoy the linear personal narrative of your diary, but would you consider bringing in some of your students' first names? Personalize the posts a bit? I see a lot of "they" and "them," and while it's easy to denote your kids that way, it's more engaging to read about Tim and Sara and Corey and Melissa. Whaddya say?
242. DanDillon - 10/23/1999 8:19:33 PM
Just flipping through the latest issue of NEA Today (or whatever their tabloid is called). What a buncha crap! From the god-awful letters to the editor to the organization's demeaning stand on vouchers, I could barely put the rag down fast and furiously enough. I sure am glad we have this forum here to keep boyant my faith in eductors.
243. CalGal - 10/23/1999 10:38:38 PM
Dan,
I imagine a lot of kids also tell pollsters that "taking drugs is uncool".
The larger point is our inexplicable desire to pretend that all kids are equally intelligent.
244. phillipdavid - 10/24/1999 2:47:34 AM
Dan,
I'll consider doing what you ask.
I have left it impersonal because I thought I might link it to my class' webpage eventually, and I didn't want to make any kids feel uncomfortable who read it -- or get into trouble for publicizing info that I should keep private.
But I'll give you a little "personal" taste right here. These were some of my star students of last year...all except for the guy with the facial hair -- he still needs some remedial lessons in English grammar.
245. PsychProf - 10/24/1999 2:43:14 PM
DAN...YOU, the teacher, asked YOUR class if it was cool to be smart and they said yes. How special. Age of students?....as in 11 is different than 16!! Did you read the "Beyond the Classroom" research? Don't you think that being the instructor in charge of their evaluations might be an influence...frankly, I am still smarting from the time(s) you have taken other posters to task over grammatical mistakes. Well...try the shoe on yourself. How about reading a basic text in sampling technique and bias. Then read the text I cited...the author and his cohorts placed an immense amount of time and professionalism into their work.
246. PsychProf - 10/24/1999 2:55:32 PM
HERE IS A BEYOND THE CLASSROOM LINK
247. PsychProf - 10/24/1999 3:23:06 PM
248. DanDillon - 10/24/1999 6:41:42 PM
PP,
Chill. You have jumped to far too many conclusions in your ranting post (a.k.a. #245). Read my #240 again and ask yourself one question: How much do I really know?
I never intended to impugn your attention and sensitivity to research, nor, certainly, did I ever intend to incur your wrath. But numbers only say so much, my good man. I have read reams of educational research, especially in the areas of English and grammar instruction, and, of course, clasroom management. I don't limit myself to those areas, however, and I resent your assumption that I am not as well versed in academic research as I am in grammatical correctness. Oh well. Chalk it up to the inherent limitations of virtual communication.
And if you've been smarting all this time about my taking "other posters to task" over their grammatical sloppiness, you've got larger issues to worry about than my humming classroom -- like your occasional omission of question marks and your apparent personal bias toward the text you cited. We all have our weaknesses, I guess.
So then, how much do you know?
[sigh]
And this used to be such a happy place.
249. CalGal - 10/24/1999 7:09:45 PM
Spence,
Hey, I missed your post the first time.
Selection bias is a profound problem that can seriously mess up the results, and there is reason to believe not enough attention gets paid to it.
What is that bit about where you choose to look for your car keys, and why?
I think the studies on children are focusing too much on a non-issue--the mother working outside the home. Women have entered the workforce in massive numbers over the past 20 years, and if the studies are still inconclusive, maybe it's time to ignore that difference and see what happens.
But as it is, every time I read the results of these studies, I rarely have any other response than "Well, DUH!"
250. Buck Mulligan - 10/24/1999 7:16:16 PM
Arky,
I have some concerns based on my observations of college freshmen. Most of the students I see took some calculus in high school, so they should be well prepared for college math, but many clearly are not.
Some seem to lack skills in algebra and trigonometry. I have to wonder: why did these kids waste their time taking calculus before they mastered their basic skills? Also, they don't understand some of the most basic ideas of calculus. In particular, they don't understand limits, and they don't know what it means for a function to be differentiable. Again I wonder-these kids took a year of calculus in high school and they don't know what a derivative is. My impression is that they are being rushed through the material too quickly and don't develop any real understanding.
I'd like to hear from high school teachers about this. I'll admit that I don't know very much about K-12 math education. There really should be more communication and cooperation between high school teachers and college profs.
251. Buck Mulligan - 10/24/1999 7:46:58 PM
A quick follow-up to my last post.
Many of the kids I see are very bright and well educated. My last post may have sounded too negative. There are some kids, however, who lack basic skills. What's worse, these kids don't know that they lack basic skills and they get a rude shock when they get to college.
252. Stumbo - 10/24/1999 7:52:48 PM
BM:
On the first day of a "functions of a complex variable" course, I discovered that few of the students remembered the formulas for sin(a+b) and cos(a+b); nobody had seen (or, at least, could remember having seen) a proof thereof. So I told them that homework item #1 would be to write one up. One person handed in a xeroxed page from a textbook.
253. Buck Mulligan - 10/24/1999 8:00:30 PM
Actually, the proofs of those are so much more elegant when a and b are assumed to be complex.
254. Stumbo - 10/24/1999 8:12:41 PM
BM: it's been a long time (in alkie years). I'd like to see that.
255. Buck Mulligan - 10/24/1999 8:24:10 PM
If you like, I'll put the proof up on the science thread sometime this week. Not today, though. I've still got to prepare tomorrow's lecture.
256. Stumbo - 10/24/1999 8:32:12 PM
BM: do you assume the series, or eia -- or is totally from scratch?
257. Stumbo - 10/24/1999 8:32:44 PM
is it, rather.
258. Buck Mulligan - 10/24/1999 8:41:16 PM
You just need eix = cos x + i sin x and the complex definitions of sine and cosine.
259. Stumbo - 10/24/1999 8:43:35 PM
BM: yes, but how do you get the former?
260. Buck Mulligan - 10/24/1999 8:59:54 PM
From the complex definition of the exponential.
261. Stumbo - 10/24/1999 9:30:57 PM
BM: but we still need to prove that these new exp, sin, and cos functions that we've defined actually correspond to what was meant by those functions until then. And, off the top of my head, I don't think one can easily do that, without eventually leaning on those trig formulas. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
262. phillipdavid - 10/24/1999 10:54:27 PM
BM,
"My impression
is that they are being rushed through the material too quickly and don't
develop any real understanding. "
That is the conventional wisdom nowdays -- based upon analyzing the last two TIMSS tests (International tests of math and science for grades 4, 8, 12) and the way math is taught in many other countries compared to how it is usually taught in America. Researchers have discovered that in many other high performing countries, less is covered than in America, but what is covered is dealt with in much more depth. Seems that American students rush through the text and cover a multitude of concepts, but on average do not understand a lot of it as well as their counterparts in other countries.
263. Buck Mulligan - 10/25/1999 7:09:48 AM
Stumbo, you need the real trig functions to talk about the complex exponential, but you can get by without additive identities for for them. If you already prove the additive identities for the real trig functions, however, then the complex exponential is easier to tame. It's kind of a chicken and egg thing.
Apologies to everyone else for making them read our somewhat esoteric discussion.
264. PsychProf - 10/25/1999 8:48:09 AM
Dan....perhaps you would address the issue. Is it cool to be stupid or isn't it...a sweeping generalization...yes...but a topic well researched and worthy of comment. This is the education thread...you are the host...and this is an current and important topic. I do not come here for friendship. Indeed, I resent your sophomoric approach to a post that differs from what you expect or want. Stop trying to legislate temperament in the thread, and let's discuss. Will you respond to the links I posted with support for your "non-numbers" approach? I would rather we don't get into a battle of "my class vs yours' for anecdotes...this is why I cited independent sources. Your turn. BTW, for some a "rant" shows passion and is indicative of a poster being interested in the topic. And, I don't give a crap if you approve of my writing style.
265. PelleNilsson - 10/25/1999 3:43:23 PM
I guess you are aware of ideas to link teachers' salaries to student performance. Here is the Economist's take on it.
266. SpenceMirrlees - 10/25/1999 4:18:04 PM
Cal
What is that bit about where you choose to look for your car keys, and why?
Ha, ha. You choose to look where the light it. But, this isn't quite that case -- it's as if you have a flashlight, but still refuse to look anywhere but under the streetlight. Selection bias is not impossible or even necessarily that difficult to take account of. Rare is the study that does it.
Why? Here's the sinister "public debate gives the wrong incentives" angle: accounting for selection bias tends to dilute the statistical importance of some variable, one that a study's proponents sometimes a priori believe should take a more important role in policy (say, daycare). Now, since very few people know to ask about it, and researchers can get away without checking for it, why do it if it only undermines the cause?
You know how Dan Dillon said numbers only mean so much? Well, sometimes that's true, and one reason is because people don't do the right things with them.
267. SpenceMirrlees - 10/25/1999 4:18:38 PM
"choose to look where the light IS."
268. SpenceMirrlees - 10/25/1999 4:27:02 PM
Pelle, is that link available to non-subscribers?
269. SpenceMirrlees - 10/25/1999 4:31:50 PM
Buck Mulligan
why did these kids waste their time taking calculus before they mastered their basic skills?
One reason: they want to look good for colleges. It's hard to convey on a piece of paper, "I didn't advance as far as many but I have much more secure foundations." They don't care what they actually learn so much as they care what colleges think they learn, perhaps.
I wonder at what point college admissions officers can or will update their beliefs about the information conveyed by passing high school calculus.
270. CalGal - 10/25/1999 4:35:36 PM
Will they ever need to? In general, won't the person who knows enough to go through the motions of taking calculus always be better suited for college than the one who doesn't?
Besides, most students who go through the motions of taking calculus also go through the motions of taking the AP test. In other words, it's not so much that they never knew it--it's that they only knew it long enough to take the test.
271. SpenceMirrlees - 10/25/1999 4:43:06 PM
Will they ever need to? In general, won't the person who knows enough to go through the motions of taking calculus always be better suited for college than the one who doesn't?
Yes, a pooling equilibrium. Certainly possible.
I don't think all calculus students take the AP test any more. My high school had two calculus tracks, one for the smart kids and one for the kids who wanted to look good for colleges. Most in the latter track didn't take the AP exam; most in the former did. I don't know how other schools do it these days.
Of course, then there is a question of what an admissions officer should infer if a calculus student doesn't take the AP exam: he would have, in the student's own estimation, probably scored a 2 or worse. Or just doesn't care much about school.
272. CalGal - 10/25/1999 4:50:25 PM
I'm amazed that there are people who take calculus and don't bother to take the AP. Back in my day, it was unheard of. (god, that's depressing. I had a day, and it is now far enough to be "back").
It's utterly ridiculous--as you say, it operates as a confession that you couldn't have passed the test. It can't be that they don't care much about school or they wouldn't have bothered to take calculus.
But this would suggest that college admissions are relying on the probability that someone who takes calculus just to get into college is better prepared than someone who doesn't bother to. Pooling equilibrium?
If they ever need to be picky, they've got the AP test as a backup.
273. iiibbb - 10/25/1999 4:53:32 PM
RE: 263
Buck:
I can still have fun with your esoteric discussion :)
Just for Laughs, Hope this works
274. iiibbb - 10/25/1999 4:54:41 PM
Make sure to hit the dialectize button :)
275. iiibbb - 10/25/1999 4:57:01 PM
Ahhhh calculus....
Boy did I get steamrolled by that one... Took Engineering Calc my first year in college without any prior exposure...
My mistake?... I actually tried to learn it instead of just memorizing homework problems.
276. PelleNilsson - 10/25/1999 5:01:33 PM
Spence
I didn't know that linking was restricted. Here is the text:
AS THE latest set of dismal test scores was announced in Colorado-41% of 11-year-olds failing to meet state standards in reading, and 69% failing to meet them in writing-Bill Maloney, the state's education commissioner, had sobering words: "If we do not put our house in order, rougher hands will do it for us." Those rougher hands are the reformers who would like to introduce vouchers and public-school choice. But there is another experiment going on in the state capital, Denver, which might improve the public-school system from within-and keep more radical alternatives at bay, for a while at least. Last month, Denver became the first city in America to bring in a plan linking teachers' salaries directly to their pupils' performance. (Tony Blair's government wants to introduce such a scheme in Britain's schools; see article). The Denver scheme, approved by the local teachers' union, will be tested in a handful of schools for two years. Its success, if it does succeed, could pave the way for other troubled urban school districts which are trying to break the relentless pattern of pupils who fail to progress. Various merit-pay programmes have been tested around the country. Most of them were unsuccessful because they relied on subjective evaluations of the teachers by school principals.
277. PelleNilsson - 10/25/1999 5:03:51 PM
Under the Denver scheme, teachers will be judged by the performance of their pupils in both standardised exams and tests made up by teachers, as well as by their general progress. Since the plan had to win the approval of the Denver teachers' union, it is decidedly timid at present. Those volunteering to take part receive a pay rise simply for doing so, and they will not be penalised if pupils show no improvement at the end of two years. Nevertheless, officials in Denver are adamant that, if this pilot project works, the city will completely overhaul the pay scheme of its teachers in favour of one based almost entirely on how their pupils fare. Will the unions let the city get away with that? Pay based on seniority-years served, nothing more-is something they consider sacred. In the past, teachers' unions have always defeated challenges to traditional ways of paying teachers. Yet the movement all over America towards paying by merit may gain momentum for one good reason: the unions' leaders realise they have no choice. With more states and cities experimenting with radical school reform, especially voucher schemes, the unions are finding it politic to accept the smaller fiddles.
278. PelleNilsson - 10/25/1999 5:05:30 PM
That is why the head of the National Education Association, America's largest teachers' union, pays lip-service to the Denver experiment. Some teachers are also prepared to compromise because they now genuinely understand that accountability is something that has to be taken seriously. Making teachers' pay dependent on student achievement, advocates argue, at last gives teachers not only a financial stake in the future of their pupils but also a greater sense of responsibility for the tax dollars going into the public schools. As with any system of competition, it rewards the best teachers, and punishes the incompetent. And not before time, most American parents would say. Inevitably, much of the debate about merit pay involves the question of how pupil achievement ought to be measured. Is it fair, for example, to demand the same of poor pupils and rich ones? Many teachers are also concerned that pay-for-performance schemes will increase reliance on statewide standardised tests, which are already used to decide everything from whether pupils go up to the next class at the end of the year to the amount of money given to each school district. Some politicians now advocate testing as the only objective way to measure academic performance.
279. PelleNilsson - 10/25/1999 5:06:30 PM
George W. Bush, the governor of Texas, said in a recent speech that "without testing, reform is a journey without a compass." Yet many teachers do not share Mr Bush's views on navigation, and believe it is unfair to use standardised tests to compare suburban districts with inner-city schools. They are wary of staking their own livelihood on such tests, and will no doubt fight for other assessment methods in merit-pay schemes around the country. It will be a smallish fight, however. The bigger battle, about reining in the power of the public-school bureaucracy, is already being won by those rough hands of reform.
280. CalGal - 10/25/1999 5:26:15 PM
Well, testing is the only way to objectively measure academic performance.
There are far too many variables to make merit increases a good idea--the main one being that students might not wish to learn. If a teacher isn't allowed to kick the duds out, then what do they do? Petition for another class?
This will send even more teachers to private schools--and you'll have public suburban schools grabbing the best of the rest. ("Come teach for us! We've got kids whose scholastic performance determines whether they get a car on their 16th or 17th birthday!" )
Besides, as long as you have salaries set by location, the poor schools are always going to be worse off.
If they are going to implement some sort of plan like this and have any sort of success, I think they'd need more control over student population. And I certainly think the assessment should be based on improvement, not any absolute scores.
Unions can pretend to go along with this, but in the end, any merit program kills them.
Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, why not have the program run at the national level? That way, teachers could be assessed nationally and the raises provided could be independent of the locality's ability to pay. And you would get a premium if you taught in poorer schools.
281. arkymalarky - 10/25/1999 6:53:45 PM
Lots of kids who take advanced courses don't take AP tests, at least around here. For one thing, it's expensive and the state has only recently offered reimbursement. Kids who want to test out of a general college course can take the Clep test for about half the cost. Many in smaller schools take the advanced courses to prepare for the college courses they're going to take, and many smaller schools don't even offer calculus because no one takes it, and the independent study or distance learning programs are very hit-and-miss.
282. Stumbo - 10/25/1999 8:20:52 PM
MB:
I was simply hoping that #253 meant you knew some cute trick --that I hadn't seen, or had forgotten about -- that used C to prove those identities for (in particular) the real case. Oh well, no harm done.
283. CalGal - 10/25/1999 9:34:50 PM
The state offers reimbursement? Heavens. They didn't offer it when I was in school. And it's not that expensive, especially when considering that college credits for those same classes costs a lot more.
284. arkymalarky - 10/25/1999 10:53:56 PM
Well, it's $76 per test, while the Clep is around $35 and supposedly easier for the same result, and lots of students who would be taking it go on grants and scholarships, so savings money on classes isn't as much of an issue. In fact, some would actually rather take courses they're comfortable they can do well in the first semester or two so they don't get overwhelmed and lose their scholarships.
285. CalGal - 10/25/1999 10:59:07 PM
Oh, okay. So the CLEP gives college credit, too? In that case, my question would be what percentage of students who take calculus don't take some test that gives them college credit?
286. PsychProf - 10/26/1999 7:49:51 AM
I advised both my sons to retake calculus(1 And 2) at the college level. HS calculus classes are not usually as intensive as the college course, and if the AP credit is accepted, it means Calc 3 or Differential Equations during the freshman year...
287. Buck Mulligan - 10/26/1999 12:45:45 PM
Clearly, many students are working to take the AP calc tests. Perhaps many teachers teach to those tests. Now I really wonder what's on those tests. Also, it makes sense that students want to look good for college admissions people. It's a little odd when you think about how much power admissions departments wield. It doesn't seem right that the things you do to get into college are different than the things you should do to get ready for college.
288. PsychProf - 10/26/1999 12:56:29 PM
Buck...about 7% of the student population(HS) take the AP AB or BC Calculus courses. Many HS are totally eliminating calculus by teaching "integrated math", a reinvention of the wheel that my family happily avoided.
289. Buck Mulligan - 10/26/1999 1:00:25 PM
I should be careful. The students I see are not a representative sample of the population at large. 90% of them took AP calc classes. However, it seems like they were not especially well served by doing so. And many of my mathematician friends point out that their HS calc classes were not useful.
290. PsychProf - 10/26/1999 1:06:05 PM
Buck...well, at least they are introduced to foundations of thinking. As I said before, in most cases I do advise the skip to Calc 3 or differential equations as a freshman. Are you a college Profgeek like myself?
291. Buck Mulligan - 10/26/1999 2:20:14 PM
I'm a Profgeek in training.
292. PsychProf - 10/26/1999 4:07:50 PM
290...sorry...I do NOT advise...
293. CalGal - 10/26/1999 9:51:29 PM
The Worthless Ivy League?, Samuelson's Newsweek column.
Apparently, going to an Ivy League school doesn't do anything for you you couldn't do on your own. Previous studies had only demonstrated a 7% difference--but a new study has even wiped that out difference.
To do so, Dale and Krueger examined the 1976 freshmen of 34 colleges. They ranged from Yale, Bryn Mawr and Swarthmore (highest in SAT scores) to Penn State and Denison University (lowest in scores). The SAT gap between top and bottom was about 200 points. Dale and Krueger knew which colleges had accepted and rejected these students as well as their future earnings. By 1995, male graduates with full-time jobs earned an average of $89,026; women earned $76,859.
Dale and Krueger then compared graduates who had been accepted and rejected by the same (or similar) colleges. The theory was that admissions officers were ranking personal qualities, from maturity to ambition. Students who fared similarly would possess similar strengths; then, Dale and Krueger compared the earnings of these students—regardless of where they went. There was no difference. Suppose that Princeton and Podunk accept you and me; but you go to Princeton and I go to Podunk. On average, we will still make the same. (The result held for blacks and whites, further weakening the case for race-based admission preferences. The only exception was poorer students, regardless of race; they gained slightly from an elite school.)
Also, Samuelson mentions a new study from the Department of Education shows that the single most powerful factor in determining whether a student finishes college is not financial aid, but the difficulty of their high school classes.
294. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 2:18:09 AM
Perhaps the advantage of the vine covered schools is the information they convey about recent graduates. Okay, conditional on being good enough to get into HYP, actually going doesn't mean that much, at least not down the line in someone's career. That's what the study shows.
But, consider the employer, lacking much information about a young job candidate. Graduates of HYP were almost all good enough to get into HYP; very few graduates of Podunk were (the previous condition is rare indeed). The prospective employer has little information about the candidates, and university is one of their strongest signals. So the HYP graduate starts out better than the Podunk grad.
Once a person acquires a reputation as a professional, school-related information, as it is somewhat unreliable and noisy (not to mention old), assumes less importance. So as the people age, their earnings profiles converge.
But the earnings profile of the HYP graduate might start out higher and change more gradually. Given the importance of compounding, that extra money earned while young could have a substantial effect on the present value of lifetime earnings. So it's not clear that the "value" of a degree from HYP above Podunk should be measured by the expected earnings flow 20 years later.
295. CalGal - 10/27/1999 2:36:39 AM
Perhaps the advantage of the vine covered schools is the information they convey about recent graduates.
Well, yes. Samuelson mentions that.
But the earnings profile of the HYP graduate might start out higher and change more gradually.
At that point, you're assuming that the 22 year old Harvard grad puts 5K away in retirement and the 22 year old Podunk grad only puts away 2K, due to the fact that one makes more money? Okay. I can see it now. "Apply to Harvard! We can't guarantee you a higher salary for any length of time, but you'll have $25K more in retirement!"
(Or maybe not--given that the Ivy Leaguers probably spend much of that early income advantage paying off school loans.)
Also, it seems odd that salaries of one group would "catch up" with the other. This suggests that any difference is minimal--or that the Podunks get a big hike at some point. I don't know how much you know about salaries (mine, I hasten to point out, is just what I know of HR rules and regs), but in large companies, it's often very difficult to get large raises. It's possible that, on average, the Podunks take more risks, leave one company for a massive salary increase at another firm, and catch up in ways that make up for their slower beginning.
Or not. I'm just speculating. In any event, it's interesting that no matter how you look at it, the high profile school doesn't add a whole hell of a lot.
296. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 2:56:35 AM
hahahaha.
If you think an extra $3k invested at age 22 will amount to $25k by by retirement, I invite you to make friends with a calculator.
Not so much an issue of more savings, but possibly less debt, in the way of credit cards in particular. Of course, one problem with that argument is that HYP is much more expensive than Podunk, and probably have a higher debt burden upon graduation. On the other hand, student loan debt is typically a little easier to bear than credit card debt.
This suggests...Podunks get a big hike at some point. Nope, all still gradual--constant rate of increase, for example. Imagine two straight lines, both increasing and intersecting at some point.
297. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 2:57:57 AM
it's interesting that no matter how you look at it
That's obviously not the implication of the study. The thrust is a comparison of income flows 20 years after graduation. There are some other ways to look at it.
298. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 2:58:21 AM
oh, forgot the rest of the quote. Well, you get the idea.
299. butterfieldswire - 10/27/1999 3:10:35 AM
If you invest your money at 5% interest it should double every 14 years. 3K should turn into 24K after 42 years, about the time between 22 and retirement.
300. CalGal - 10/27/1999 3:13:26 AM
If you think an extra $3k invested at age 22 will amount to $25k by by retirement, I invite you to make friends with a calculator.
I've never met a calculator I could call a pal. Fuckers just don't like me. But either way, you get the general idea.
Nope, all still gradual--constant rate of increase, for example.
That could technically be so, but remember--we're only talking high achievers here, aren't we? At least, I think we're talking high achievers, if I understood the study. They are comparing all people who were accepted to name schools, whether they went or not, yes?
If so, I would be unconvinced that all high achievers have a nice, steady upward climb on the salary scale--5% each year, or some such. This is just my own experience, here in the rarefied world of SV. Still, I don't think things would be that different. I do agree that it is theoretically possible.
That's obviously not the implication of the study. The thrust is a comparison of income flows 20 years after graduation. There are some other ways to look at it.
Well, I don't know about "obviously". Samuelson says, Going to Harvard or Duke won't automatically produce a better job and higher pay. Graduates of these schools generally do well. But they do well because they're talented. Had they chosen colleges with lesser nameplates, they would (on average) have done just as well.
No qualifications. So the article, at any rate, is reaching the same conclusion I stated.
Also, I think that income at 20 years is pretty telling. Yes, there might be other comparisons you can make. But in the end, salary and income are where it's at--that's the main reason that people choose the high profile schools, wouldn't you say?
301. CalGal - 10/27/1999 3:14:13 AM
3K should turn into 24K after 42 years, about the time between 22 and retirement.
Now that's scary. I guessed right?
302. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 3:16:54 AM
Um, Cal, I think he probably used a present value, future value and time horizon to figure an interest rate.
Implies a decent slogan for HYP: "If you don't learn by graduationt that you can do better than a CD and change, you don't deserve the money.
Butter, tell her what you'd get on retirement if you invested at 10%, or say 10% for 30 years and 6% for 10 after that.
303. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 3:24:19 AM
In other words, he found the interest rate that would make your guess correct.
So you don't think Podunk grads get big jumps, don't buy a gradual ascent -- I guess you think HYP and Podunk grads start out about the same? Maybe, I don't know. I would not be the least bit surprised if the upper tail at Penn State was better in some sense than the average at HYP.
If you're choosing schools because of income, presumably it's because of a lifetime earnings profile (and the effect of networking on that profile), not because of the flow after 20 years. That's ultimately an empirical question, however.
It's not fair to say the article justifies the statement, "no matter how you look at it," I don't think. The article does reach a negative conclusion about value added of the vine covered schools, but does so by looking at it in one particular way.
304. butterfieldswire - 10/27/1999 3:28:42 AM
If you invest at 10%, you double in about 7 years. If you invest at 6% you double in about 12 years. So under the Spence plan you should double 5 times or about 96k.
305. CalGal - 10/27/1999 3:33:22 AM
Spence,
Hey, don't look at me. I went to Podunk and didn't even take their feeble math classes. And I was one of those that passed the AP Calculus test and promptly forgot every bit of anything I might have learned.
Seriously, I made the number up, since I neither know nor care what 3K translates to. But I think this whole retirement claim is getting out of hand. The early years of any career are rarely spent accruing retirement income, and 18-year-olds don't go to Harvard because they're interested in more money at retirement. So the study should be an eye-opener, of sorts. Kids should know what it is they are buying with all that debt.
My take on what a degree from a good school gives you--ease. Doors opening. An ability to not have to work quite so hard around the edges just to get to where you can produce.
I don't think this ease necessarily translates to more income. So I don't think that ease is worth the extra $100K you spend at a name brand school. Still, there are times in life when the extra work drags at you, and it all seems as if it would have been easier if you'd gone to Harvard, Yale, or Princeton.
So maybe that's what you pay the big bucks for. So you don't have to wonder if it would have been easier.
FWIW, my anecdotal experience is consistent with the results of this study.
306. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 3:39:49 AM
Well, like I said, the point isn't that you invest in the traditional sense at 22, but accruing less debt on a credit card at 18% has the same effect.
307. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 3:46:38 AM
The other angle, of course: Dale-Krueger looked at people employed full time 20 years later. Well, HYP is so good, it's graduates are all wealthy early retirees who didn't show up in the data.
308. CalGal - 10/27/1999 3:48:50 AM
So you don't think Podunk grads get big jumps, ...
No, actually, I said This suggests that any difference is minimal--or that the Podunks get a big hike at some point.
When I said that it was "odd", it was because that was what snagged at me--the suggestion that the Podunks start at a lower salary, with no explanation for how they caught up. So then I started speculating. It seems equally possible that there is no real discrepancy.
If you're choosing schools because of income, presumably it's because of a lifetime earnings profile (and the effect of networking on that profile), not because of the flow after 20 years.
You think? For an 18-year-old? I'd bet buckets of money that most 18 year olds who get accepted to Harvard think they're paying through the nose for a significant step up in advantages forever after. I think that these 18-year-olds--and their parents--are Samuelson's target audience.
It's not fair to say the article justifies the statement, "no matter how you look at it," I don't think.
Well, I think the article makes that statement. But also, look back at what I said--that the school doesn't add a whole hell of a lot. I didn't say that it added nothing. I was giving the benefit of the doubt to the name brands--and saying that it still doesn't mean much. Do you really think that's an overstatement, if we're dickering over things like extra retirement dollars (offset by a massive debt load)?
Now, if you are thinking of things like quality of education? Fine. But if quality of education doesn't translate to a higher income, I'm not sure that it matters for purposes of this discussion. "Harvard--you might make the same money, but you'll be better educated!"
309. CalGal - 10/27/1999 3:50:39 AM
Well, HYP is so good, it's graduates are all wealthy early retirees who didn't show up in the data.
Ha, ha. Okay, I grant you if he didn't take this into consideration, the advantage goes to the name brands.
I was assuming that any study referenced by Samuelson was pretty sound.
310. SpenceMirrlees - 10/27/1999 5:42:29 AM
Podunks start at a lower salary, with no explanation for how they caught up.
I gave an explanation, then I read the article and it implied the same explanation (yes, I confess, it happened in that order). In particular: they catch up when they acquire a professional reputation as individuals. When they have only (primarily, whatever) the reputation of a school, an employer cannot justify paying a salary higher than the expected productivity, which is lower than the expected productivity from HYP. As the workers age, more about them, and their true productivity, becomes known, and more must be offered as payment in a competitive labor market.
Then of course, one wonders why "Admitted to HYP but turned it down" doesn't appear on resumes of these people.
311. PsychProf - 10/27/1999 8:15:59 AM
Thanks all...I'll think of you as I write out my 3 $10,000 checks a year to Dartmouth.
312. Buck Mulligan - 10/27/1999 10:06:48 AM
I have spent time at ivy and non-ivy schools. In my experience, an ivy league education will open some doors that may not be open to non-ivy grads. In particular, the corporate recruiting is more intense at ivy schools and the corporations that are recruiting at the ivy schools are pretty high powered outfits.
313. Buck Mulligan - 10/27/1999 10:08:50 AM
Also, PP, don't forget that at Dartmouth, you're not just getting a good education, you're also getting the prestige that comes from attending the school that inspired Animal House.
314. Indiana Jones - 10/27/1999 10:10:20 AM
Didn't Vanderbilt inspire Animal House? In the courtroom scene, there's a Tennessee state flag in the back.
315. PsychProf - 10/27/1999 10:25:16 AM
Indiana...it was Dartmouth, as Buck points out. And, indeed, I know that corporate recruiting is first rate at Ivies...the discussion here is very interesting to me. My oldest is a Harvard grad, my youngest is at Dartmouth, and I am glad to support both choices. Basically, I think you gets what you pays for.
316. Buck Mulligan - 10/27/1999 10:26:30 AM
Soory, no. The film is based on short stories by Chris Miller (Dartmouth, 1962) about his experiences in Alpha Delta Phi. The filming was done in Missouri.
317. Indiana Jones - 10/27/1999 12:00:56 PM
Well, it's very clearly a Tennessee state flag in the courtroom scene (in which the fraternity is banned and they all go marching out). This site supports the Dartmouth connection, but says it was filmed in Oregon.
Sorry for the distraction, carry on.
318. Buck Mulligan - 10/27/1999 12:08:13 PM
Indiana is right, it was filmed in Oregon. Apparently it was to be filmed at the University of Missouri, but then the president of the university got a look at the script.
319. ChristiPeters - 10/27/1999 12:12:40 PM
*interruption*
I love my daughter's school and her teachers. She is having difficulty with the logic problems she is being assigned. I love it that the teacher is making an effort to specifically teach them how to reason out these problems logically. I love it that when I went in and explained that my daughter was really struggling with this, the teacher immediately offered to work with her today and offered tutoring sessions after school.
*end interruption*
320. CalGal - 10/27/1999 12:42:13 PM
In my experience, an ivy league education will open some doors that may not be open to non-ivy grads.
This is the kicker, IMO. But is it worth the 50-60K, when you can get the same thing without it?
That is an open question, not a skeptical one.
In any event, I think students and parents should know the real tradeoffs. More doors opened, more complacency, more debt--and not necessarily more money.
321. Buck Mulligan - 10/27/1999 12:49:30 PM
I don't necessarily think it's worth it. Some of the big-name, big-money schools provide a terrific education. If you can go to one of them without going broke, then it's a good option. But I wouldn't go deep into debt to go to such a school. You can get an education that is at least as good at other, less costly, schools.
322. JonesAtLaw - 10/27/1999 12:53:05 PM
I think that a great deal of the college experience relates to the persons that one chooses to associate with at school and the norms that group sets. You can attend Podunk U and associate with the high achievers and do rather well. You can attend an Ivy and associate with the cellar dwellers and do poorly. I would imagine that your opportunities to surround yourself with high achievers is greater at the Ivy schools, but this is not based on experience. My friends went to Ivy's for graduate and professional school and I understand that experience is quite different from the undergrad experience.
323. CalGal - 10/27/1999 1:49:43 PM
Jones,
The other thing is that a percentage of the name brand graduates are from well off to flat out wealthy families, with parents that are connected. Before anyone gets fussed--no, I'm not saying that all of them are rich. Combine that with the higher percentage of good connections they'll make at a better school, and it all adds up.
That's why it is surprising that the Podunk grads do as well.
Sheer speculation, given this data: My guess is that if you look more closely, they do better for different reasons. The name brands do well because of the connections and better opportunities, the Podunk high achievers do well because--on average--they are more used to overcoming obstacles and have a bit more drive and less complacency.
I wouldn't be surprised if, on average, the Podunks got farther on straight achievement--which would give their income big boosts at various points. Similarly, the Name Brands on average might have a more traditional and stately walk to retirement--which would give their income a steady upward climb, with no big boosts. In a like to like matchup--where they both start at the same job with the same salary--I'd bet the Podunks go farther faster.
Obviously, there would be overlap. Many name brand students had to be driven to get there, and many Podunk grads can be content with a decent job and nothing further.
324. DanDillon - 10/27/1999 7:50:50 PM
That wasn't an interruption, CP. It was a highly welcomed chunk o' buttered praise for the backbone of this thread.
325. phillipdavid - 10/27/1999 8:39:18 PM
Some personal notes related to Animal House:
Animal House was filmed in Eugene, Oregon (my home town) and on the University of Oregon campus (my alma mater). The frat house was a real frat house (torn down a few years ago) on 11th Avenue and Alder street. I went to several real parties there when I was in high school, and I have even been in the bar which was the "Colored" bar in the movie -- it is in a little town named Dexter next to a lake which I waterskied on in the summers about 15 miles east of Eugene.
I have eaten many a snack in the same seats where Belushi instigated a movie food fight, and I also hung out with the young Curtis Selgado and Robert Cray (my best drug connection was also their favorite connction) who John Belushi fell in love with while he was shooting the movie -- they were the muscians who inspired the creation of the Blues Brothers. Robert Cray has gone on to fame and fortune, but I still go see shows by Curtis Selgado around town. He has finally quit drugs (was really bitter for a long time that the creation of the Blues Brothers, clearly modeled after his act, didn't bring more noteriety and fame his way) and now sings a mixture of blues and gospel.
The field that the ROTC soldiers practiced on in the movie was the famous Hayward Field -- still the best track venue in America, and the home of Steve Prefontaine, Alberto Slazar, Bill Dellinger, and the place where Nike shoes (remember the old blue waffle trainers with the gold swoosh?) were developed and tested out. The campus shots are still remarkebly accurate as the place hasn't changed a bit.
326. Stumbo - 10/27/1999 10:15:06 PM
BM:
I still agree that others should probably be spared any further complex-analysis discussion. However, it took an almost superhuman effort on my part to reply to the first paragraph of #263 not with a flame, but with the very conciliatory #282 -- so the least I expected was a response in kind. Since none seems forthcoming, I'm annoyed again. Please email me at stumbo@post.com, so I can bite your head off.
327. marquatz - 10/28/1999 12:45:34 AM
I'm new here, but in reading the recent posts I would like to add a few things...
First of all, Animal House was indeed filmed at Dartmouth like the professor stated.
JonesatLaw had a great point. At Ivy League schools the opportunity to surround yourself with high achievers is tremendous. This doesn't just mean indiduals who can regurgitate facts and theorems, but involves a tremendous motivation and drive to learn and succeed. Great institions like those in the Ivy League will have scholars which bring more to the table than just academics. Many are skilled in other fields. These institutions have talented individuals ranging from cellists and theologians to baseball and football draft picks. Living, studying, and socializing with these people can only enhance your personal portfolio of attributes.
The networking and corporate/graduate school opportunities are endless. You can call up any major investment bank in NYC and easily get a hold of at least 4 or 5 analysts and a plethora of associates, managers, and vice presidents (PsychProf--the VP of Goldman Sachs, a premiere IBank, is a Dartmouth grad as well as a trustee at the school).
But CalGal--50k-60k will not get you very far at an Ivy League school. That will not even get you halfway through. But regardless, the 120+k is worth every penny.
328. CalGal - 10/28/1999 12:50:27 AM
Actually, I said 100K the first time, then PP mentioned $10K a year, so I thought I'd misunderstood.
Your glowing report aside, though: the equivalent Podunk grad is making as much money in 20 years (and probably before) and doesn't spend the $120K.
The advantages you mention are there. But as I said, I wonder if most people footing the bill realize how little they are getting for it. Would they pony up as readily if they realized that it made no real difference in income? That the equivalent Podunk grad will make larger gains than they will, at certain points in their career?
And welcome!
329. SpenceMirrlees - 10/28/1999 1:21:54 AM
well, presumably, those networking opportunities should be reflected in income figures if they matter for lifetime earnings, income flow after 20 years, etc.
Maybe the contacts don't have any effect on income but they help Ivy Leaguers get more satisfying jobs. Maybe just knowing those contacts is just titillating.
As for other cultural opportunities, they are also to be had at some public schools. Some of the finest music schools in the nation if not the world are in the Big 10, and offer free or low cost performances of some kind every day of the year. Athletics too, of all obscure varieties. Free fencing matches!? Tough to beat. Certainly public schools have a much greater range and variance in this regard than Ivys, but that's an argument for choosing wisely.
330. CalGal - 10/28/1999 1:29:35 AM
Maybe the contacts don't have any effect on income but they help Ivy Leaguers get more satisfying jobs. Maybe just knowing those contacts is just titillating.
Understood, but that also falls into the category of "who cares, if it doesn't affect income?"
This is the best the Name Brand can do? Titillation? An early start at networking? The possibility of a more satisfactory job, even if it doesn't impact income? All this, for just $120K of debt and an unspecified amount more in retirement, assuming they put the money away instead of lose it to debt payments?
I know you're not disagreeing for the most part--I'm not rubbing it in. I'm just astounded myself.
331. cmboyce - 10/28/1999 1:41:14 AM
Cal: PP's 10 grand was paid three times each year.
332. CalGal - 10/28/1999 1:42:53 AM
Is this math again?
333. SpenceMirrlees - 10/28/1999 1:45:13 AM
Nothing to rub in -- I wasn't a HYP undergrad!
Nope, not disagreeing at all with you at the moment. Just trying out different angles. 2nd paragraph was kind of facetious, as in, "wow, Goldman -- how terribly titillating!"
334. cmboyce - 10/28/1999 1:53:23 AM
Nah, just economics. BYW, & FWIW, I went to Dartmouth and was unimpressed, on the whole. I was married for senior year, to a Vassar undergrad--this was the year before each went co-ed; Dartmouth had somehting like nine women, to see how it felt, I guess--and we commuted from one campus to the other. Dartmouth, a very uptight place in those days, refused to let my wife attend classes, whereas I not only attended classes at Vassar, I was thanked for it by professors who wanted to see what the famous male factor would be like. (I was careful to mouth off a lot and try to dominate each class.) I thought Vassar had more interesting courses and profs (though there were 3 courses at D. that I thought very good and still refer to mentally, occasionally). And, of course, classmates.
335. cmboyce - 10/28/1999 1:56:56 AM
And speaking of Animal House, when I arrived at Dartmouth, Sept. '62, much talk was generated among us frosh by a feature in Playboy that ranked US colleges by their reputations as drinking colleges. Wisconsin was #1, but with a footnote observing that Dartmouth had not been considered, for it had long lost amateur standing. You may be sure we did our best to maintain the Big Green's stature (so much so that I was gone in February, in fact, though I eventually returned).
336. CalGal - 10/28/1999 1:59:39 AM
No, 30X4=120K is definitely math. Sigh.
That bit about you mouthing off and dominating was very funny.
Spence, do you suppose the advantage kicks in after grad school?
337. Stumbo - 10/28/1999 2:04:06 AM
CMB: was Murphy's there at the time, or was it a later addition?
338. cmboyce - 10/28/1999 2:15:11 AM
A last Hanoverian note. No less an American that Dwight David Eisenhower is said to have said that Dartmouth looked just the way an American college should. And it is indeed a handsome joint.
But I still thought, and think, that in the '60s, at least, the place was full of middling, kick-it-along courses and seemed to be more concerned with that networking stuff than with cultivating minds and all that. Of course, I was an English major, art-history minor, and I guess their strengths were in computers and premed. And I shouldn't forget Arctic studies.
But fuck Dartmouth. I'm going to bed. See y'all t'morra.
339. cmboyce - 10/28/1999 2:16:32 AM
I don't know Murphy's, Stumbo. Must be later. Are you a Greener, also?
340. SpenceMirrlees - 10/28/1999 2:25:17 AM
Nah, just economics. Economics? ECONOMICS? No, just arithmetic. Economics is the explanation for why the Podunk grads catch up mid-career and why they might start with lower salaries.
Cal, depends on the advantage. If you mean advantage in terms of earnings flow 20 years later, grad school is already reflected in the performance of the Ivy grads studied by Krueger & ______.
Now, the interaction of Ivy undergrad and attendance at some grad school on earnings flow mid-career might come down in favor of Ivys. That is unlikely given that the data show no significant difference overall, as it implies the Ivys are either going to grad school at lower rates than the Podunks, which sounds odd, or non-grad school Podunks are starting with higher salaries than non-grad school Ivys, which also sounds odd.
341. CalGal - 10/28/1999 2:28:39 AM
Oh, that's true. I realize I was assuming that they were comparing like to like all the way through--no grad school attendees. But there's no reason to assume that.
342. arkymalarky - 10/28/1999 6:07:23 AM
WRT Spence's #329, I would add that even small public universities have a lot more to offer than many people think. I didn't have a lot of choice where to go, since my dad was a prof and I got a good rate at the fairly small local university, and I wasn't a competitive high school student; but the school offered numerous enrichment opportunities and I met a lot of intelligent and talented people, both teachers and students. It's also a great resource for nearby elementary and high schools, which we don't utilize nearly enough.
343. PsychProf - 10/28/1999 7:57:10 AM
Very interesting discussion. Whatever I have to add is somewhat self-serving and clearly biased. Obviously I support Ivy education, since my sons could have attended the institution I teach at free of charge. I do have one comment here...if you think the Ivy League student of today is complacent...think again. These are motivated multitalented individuals...the selection process chooses for high grades, high SAT's, and outstanding achievement in one or more outside the classroom activities...music, debate, dance, journalism, athletics etc...I would describe the campus atmosphere at Dartmouth and Harvard as a whirlwind of young people grasping at all of life they can reach...hey, there are lots of great places for young people to matriculate...find the right one for the right student...I did not chose the colleges my boys went to...they did...
344. marquatz - 10/28/1999 10:08:42 AM
If you guys want to see an example of the type of opportunities which can come along to a place like Dartmouth, watch CNN from 8-9 tonight for the Republican telecast being filmed on campus. I know I will be attending...
345. Buck Mulligan - 10/28/1999 10:22:46 AM
It's interesting how many people here have some connection to Dartmouth. (Which also connects you to Kevin Bacon, but that's another topic.) I've spent some time in Hanvover and talked to people at Dartmouth. It's a great place, and I would not necessarily steer prospective students away, but I'm glad I did not go there. Of course, maybe that's my west-coast bias speaking.
346. CalGal - 10/28/1999 1:07:48 PM
if you think the Ivy League student of today is complacent
I don't think all Name Brands are complacent--as I said, some people have to work their ass off to get in. My point was that on average, they are more likely to be complacent than the equivalent Podunk students.
This isn't intended as a slam--just another speculation on a possible reason the Podunks catch up. I knew many kids growing up for whom it was a given that they'd go to Stanford--their parents had gone, grandparents, and so on. The only real issue was whether or not they'd opt to go to an Eastern school instead.
It seems entirely likely that kids like this would be, on average, less driven and more content to just ride out a job than someone who was accepted to Stanford but couldn't go because of the cost and went to a Podunk instead.
347. PsychProf - 10/28/1999 1:55:46 PM
Cal...spend some time with these young people. The stereotype of the well-to-do Ivy leaguer riding the coattails of the past is no longer applicable. Earning power and its concommitant statistics are of little interest to me. My concern is the type and character of the sons I have, not their w-2 forms. In this case, all I can say is that I am glad to pass my paycheck on.
348. CalGal - 10/28/1999 5:06:55 PM
PP,
Again, the unknown is: how do the Podunk grads catch up, income wise? That's what we're discussing. It's not an insult to the students to point out that some percentage of them are not as driven. It doesn't reflect on your sons.
And you are most welcome to pass on your paycheck anyway you like. But for those parents who are ponying up in the belief that this is helping their kids in proportion to the cost, the results of this study might cause them to rethink.
349. PsychProf - 10/29/1999 8:19:36 AM
Cal...our difference is in the dependent variable...how one judges the value of the educational experience. Since I did not do the research, and since I am not particularly conversant with economic/statistical index measurement for earnings, I cannot effectively challenge the one article you cite. It does, however, clearly disagree with the 25 years of college experience I have, and it certainly does not cause me to pause...
350. CalGal - 10/29/1999 12:39:14 PM
It is a study, not an article.
Would you agree or disagree that a parent might want to know that, from a financial perspective, their child is going to be just as well off going to Podunk as they would going to Name Brand?
Then the ones that value the special magic of education can pony up. The others can make their decisions accordingly.
Of course, if the value of Name Brand were significantly tarnished (say, due to parents who refused to pony up when Podunk does just as well), what would that do to their acceptance policies in the future?
351. PsychProf - 10/29/1999 1:52:02 PM
Cal...I guess you want me to say that it doesn't matter where one goes to college. That puts me out of a job, as I spend much time in working with young people on this very issue. In any case, it should save you a lot of time if you have to make such a decision.
352. CalGal - 10/29/1999 2:03:08 PM
...I guess you want me to say that it doesn't matter where one goes to college.
??????
No. I don't want you to say anything in particular. I was just trying to find common ground. It seems self-evident that many parents and students struggle financially to get into a name-brand school. If they are all doing this out of the belief that the expense brings the kid 4 wonderful years that make them better human beings, with no expectation that the student is improving his career options and financial well-being--then fine. This study makes no difference.
Now--regardless of what you think parents should do for their kids, do you think that the majority of them might make a different decision if they became aware that there is no difference? (assuming the study is accurate, of course.)
For example--a parent might say, "Look. I'm taking the money and putting some of it into nursing home insurance, so you won't have to take care of me. And some of it I'm going to invest in your behalf, so you can start your own business, if you like. Or (nod to Spence) put in your retirement account, to catch up with those Name Branders."
In other words, it's just more information. Any parent who believes, as you do, that the value of the educational experience itself is a critical finisher to their child's development will not change their mind.
In any event, we're only discussing the difference between Name Brand and Podunk colleges--a very high-level categorization. At no point have I said it doesn't matter where you go to college. The study provides evidence that it doesn't matter what type of college you go to--one that costs $30K/year, or one that costs 2K.
353. PsychProf - 10/29/1999 2:13:52 PM
Cal...if one turns down an offer to attend Harvard on the basis of this study...well...it sure better be valid. It must be clear to you that the study means little to me...except for the common ground of knowledge that no college or major comes with a money back policy assuring fame and fortune.
354. CalGal - 10/29/1999 2:16:16 PM
PP,
Yes, but apparently the fame and fortune comes from the individual, not the school. That is what the study indicates, no?
And I imagine there are already students who turn down Harvard based on a desire to do more with their money.
The other interesting thing that showed up--Samuelson mentions it only casually--but this finding is consistent for minority students as well.
355. PsychProf - 10/29/1999 2:21:05 PM
Cal...I have nothing but my mind and my experience here, but I do think the conclusion that it doesn't matter what "type" of college one attends, even for financial outcome alone, is wrong.
356. Stumbo - 10/30/1999 3:09:00 AM
CMB:
Well, I spent 2 years at Dartmouth. Murphy's was (and, AFAIK, still is) a nice bar/eatery on the West side of Main St., just South of the corner with Wheelock. I had lunch there (they made very good, though pretty expensive, burgers) more often than at all other places in town, combined.
Long live the Plutonium Atom Totality, and all that...
357. Buck Mulligan - 10/30/1999 11:37:39 AM
Plutonium Atom Totality? I hate to break the news to you, but Ludwig has moved on to greener pastures.
358. PsychProf - 10/30/1999 12:28:17 PM
Stumbo...Murph's is still a place of choice....Buck...lotta green pastures in Hanover.
359. Buck Mulligan - 10/30/1999 12:30:32 PM
Apparently Ludwig didn't think so.
360. Stumbo - 11/1/1999 12:43:43 AM
Yes, I was aware that L./A.P. had recently left Dartmouth. (In fact, I bought a coupla books from his moving sale. They make for nice souvenirs, what with "PLUTONIUM" etched across the spines.) His name will, nonetheless, forever remain connected with that institution, in 'Net lore -- heck, his sci.math exploits were the main reason I jumped on their job offer, in the first place. (Well, that and the fact that my chances of getting two job offers were extremely slim.)
361. PsychProf - 11/1/1999 10:32:49 AM
"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than
a 'C,' the idea must be feasible."
--A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper
proposing reliable overnight delivery service.
(Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)
362. JonesAtLaw - 11/3/1999 4:37:28 PM
PP- business school must be a bit like law school in that respect. I still respect most of my professors as academics, but most of them would be totally at sea if they tried to practice. The ones who could practice I still respect deeply. [and secretly envy]
363. SpenceMirrlees - 11/6/1999 3:22:58 PM
The professor's reaction is no different from that of investors who refused to support the idea. With the benefit of hindsight, they all look wrong.
364. PsychProf - 11/7/1999 3:37:21 PM
Spence....I wonder if the Prof ever asked about feasibility, assumed it wasn't, or just didn't care.
365. ranheim - 11/8/1999 7:05:22 PM
Jones
Med school must be similar to law and business schools. Pie-in-the-sky idealists who I would not trust my pet dog with.
My wife's boss at Baylor was a brilliant man; but, he could not tie a knot. His resident's always hated it when the 'old man' operated. They had to clean up the mess he had made. Don't get me wrong. If he was doing a cholecystectomy, he removed the Gall Bladder. But, the area had to be cleaned up. Sutures had to be removed and re-positioned; bleeders tied off; etc.
366. JonesAtLaw - 11/10/1999 11:43:44 AM
Ranheim- And here I thought that the answer to some of our problems in law was to more closely follow the medical model for training. I think that some folk belong in the lab and the classroom and some should be out in the trenches. I was told that they call it law school and not lawyers school for a reason. Most of us can't find the damn courthouse when we come out.
367. ranheim - 11/10/1999 6:28:25 PM
When a doctor graduates from med school, he knows, essentially, nothing about :
The common cold
Common rashes
Constipation
Hay Fever
Hemorrhoids
Measles
Menstrual cramps
That is just a start. He/she will know all about vonWilliebrands Disease - which I last saw as a senior med student.
And people wonder why there are no general practicioners any more!
Warts and bumps
368. DanDillon - 11/11/1999 8:25:15 AM
I felt much the same way about my M.A. in English literature. I finished my 3 years of post-graduate study, and the university I attended somehow overlooked equipping me with many of the upper-level basics. I did, however, graduate with a heaping scoop of recondite bits of information, much of it completely useless IRL. I'll tell ya, it was a real struggle becoming a normal person again after all that abstruse learning.
369. PsychProf - 11/11/1999 10:43:57 AM
370. ranheim - 11/11/1999 11:22:28 AM
Confirms what I have thought for a long time!
Professors at the graduate school level - less so the college/U level - are speaking to themselves; trying to impress each other.
They cannot be bothered with the real world.
371. PsychProf - 11/11/1999 11:26:18 AM
Ranheim...my PHD experience was different than descibed above. My Mentor and other Prof's were spectacular...whatever I am as a professional is in good part a result of their input.
372. JonesAtLaw - 11/11/1999 1:56:07 PM
PP- perhaps the fact that you remain in academia is part of the reason your preparation was so good, or perhaps you were blessed with truly great faculty as mentors. It may be a combination of the two. I don't doubt the value of the acedemic ivory tower at all, no matter how many potshots I'm inclined to take at it as a professional who deals in applied theory. I think that Ranheim's point is a good one. What is interesting and worthwhile to the theoretician or researcher trying to stretch the boundaries of the art is likely to have little present application to the practicioner.
My plea is for some form of inclusion of the practical to the curriculum without being seen as inferior to those traditional academics. Every department has professors who are loved by students for their teaching skills and mentoring. Some are not sterling researchers, and do not publish with the sucess of the traditional professors. In law, the struggle is between traditional profs and the clinical people. I tend to favor the clinical people, and have since I was a student. However, I still have gems of wisdom that I gained from traditional profs that have served me well in the practice. One boiled down legal argument to the formula "Is X a Y for purposes of Z?" It has always served me well.
373. AdamSelene - 11/11/1999 8:33:20 PM
I have an interesting angle on this theoretician/practicioner dichotomy -from the medical perspective. Three months ago I decided to do a little internet research on the popular low-carbohydrate diet. I found a ton of AMA/ADA/AHA/etc. positions that it was very bad for one's health. However, there was virtually no data to back it up! There are several epidemiological correlations of certain diets and ill-health, but there are so many confounding variables to make any conclusions spurious at best. On the other hand, I found several real studies that demonstrated that low-carb diets are quite healthy, benefiting cholestoral and triglyceride levels, but they virtually always concluded with something like: "Despite these negative results, we still cannot condone this diet due to known health risks."
So - here we have the ivory-tower proclamations that certain diets are healthy or not, and we have prima-facia evidence to the contrary. I am aware of many converted doctors who now recommend the low-carb diet, but the professional organizations, the "ivory towerites," still demonize it because it doesn't fit with accepted theory.
P.s., I've lost 27 lbs on the Atkins' low-carb diet in the last 11 weeks, and I've never felt better.
374. arkymalarky - 11/11/1999 8:47:45 PM
The teachers where I work are dropping weight like nothing on it, but I just don't want to try it yet. After Christmas I may change my mind. I'm leery of it, though, just because the results seem to be so drastic. It'll be interesting to see how long the weight loss is maintained. Congrats on your weight loss, Adam.
375. arkymalarky - 11/11/1999 8:49:54 PM
My students are so funny. I gave a test today and a student finished, looked in her book, and said "Oh no!" At the end of class she asked for her test back. I gave her a funny look and she explained she wanted to mark out an answer to a discussion question which was so badly wrong she was too embarrassed for me to read it. I watched her scribble without reading her answer.
376. AdamSelene - 11/11/1999 9:03:28 PM
Arky - you decide for yourself:
HARVARD HEART DISEASE STUDY SUPPORTS PROTEIN-RICH DIETS
Research finds that replacing carbohydrates with protein appears 'heart healthy' for many. A recent Harvard Medical School study found that women with the highest protein intakes were 26% less likely to develop ischemic heart disease (IHD) than those who ate the least protein. The study, which took place over 14 years and included more than 80,000 women, also found that diets rich in protein benefited women regardless of their fat intake. The results of the Harvard study can be found in the August issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
This study flies in the face of conventional medical and nutritional opinion, which has long held the belief that diets rich in animal products may promote IHD. This study, the Harvard researchers reported, 'strongly rejects' this idea.
Dr. Frank Hu, who led the current study, said that previous research has shown that carbohydrate rich diets reduce HDL 'good' cholesterol, believed to protect the heart from disease. Replacing carbohydrates with protein, he explained, helps boost the HDL level.
The study's objective was to examine the relation between protein intake and risk of IHD. The primary endpoint was nonfatal myocardial infarction or fatal ischemic heart disease occurring between 1980 and 1994. Compared with the lowest protein-intake group, women with the highest protein intake were 26% less likely to develop IHD over the study period.
377. AdamSelene - 11/11/1999 9:03:43 PM
This quote is from the discussion phase of the article whose full text
is available at the following link:
"Fasting TG [triglyceride] concentrations increased by 60% in subjects consuming the solid-food, high-fiber, LF/HC [low fat, high carbohydrate] diet. These results underscore the ability of LF/HC diets to elevate fasting plasma TG even when the diet is composed of whole foods and is low in simple sugars. Increased secretion of TG was not the primary kinetic mechanism responsible for this carbohydrate-induced TG elevation, however; reduced TG clearance from the plasma was the major metabolic mechanism involved."
http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/104/8/1087
---
More:
http://mac088.nhrc.navy.mil/Pubs/Abstract/90/20.html
http://www.syndicomm.com/lowfat.html
http://www.inform.dk/djembe/scd/lutz/
http://www.personalmd.com/news/heart_disease_091799.html
http://x46.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=525469105&CONTEXT=939246924.411173000&hitnum=2
http://www.heskco.com/Karan/myth.html
http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/health/garynu1.html
http://www.infihealth.com/html/heart_disease.html
http://elegance.cs.uiuc.edu/~jyelon/lowcarb.med/
http://www.atkinsdiet.com/
http://tom.cuy.net/atkins/
http://home.talkcity.com/TechnologyWay/wallyb/index.html
378. arkymalarky - 11/11/1999 9:08:08 PM
Thanks for the info. I'll wait and see if any of the people I know keel over from it, then I may try it.
379. ranheim - 11/11/1999 10:08:18 PM
Of very great importance are your genes. My wife will eat butter; spoons of mayonaise from the jar; etc - and her total cholesterol is 160!
I won't live long enough, but, would be surprised if at some future time researchers won't say something similar to this : "Natural foods - e.g. eggs - are all right! Where you get into trouble with fats is when you see the word hydrogenized."
380. AdamSelene - 11/11/1999 10:16:19 PM
Ha ha ha - ranheim, I can now find quotes that almost echo your exact words! I'm sure you know that margarines (hydrogenized fats) are now known to be much more carcinogenic than even saturated fats. And eggs are now known to be non-cholestoral raising in moderation, and even in excess if you avoid the carbohydrates. Not to mention, the protein (amino acid) balance in eggs is virtually perfect for human dietary needs.
And of course genes are important. I can now fit into jeans that I haven't worn in years. grin!
381. SpenceMirrlees - 11/11/1999 10:33:41 PM
Speaking as a theorist in my field, I want to point out that the hallmark of theory is not ignorance, disdain, or indifference toward data. A good model is one that accounts for observation; it is helpful to know at least some broad patterns if that's your goal. I don't view empiricists or empirical work as inferior, I just don't want to be one or do that kind of work.
I will also say that if I were to become an entrepreneur -- well, I don't think I'd be out in the cold, but advanced training in economics and game theory would be of virtually no help (indeed it could well be counterproductive in the case of economics, as we are trained to think of situations in which all profit opportunities have been taken). Similarly, no business school in America offers a course called "how to run a business."
So what? That isn't the point. Theoretical work is simply a different stage of the idea development life cycle. If the question, "how rational can we guarantee a colletive to be?", for example, sounds arcane or irrelevant, then you probably haven't thought much about group decision making or how to discover some "collective interest." And I can confidently say that when the feds or the state needs some market or allocation mechanism designed, they don't ask an applied econometrician.
As for the hegemony of received theory -- a theorist in any field loves to shake things up. What could be better than to publish a paper not only showing defects of standard thinking, but correcting them? That is a theorist's mission in life. As a result, in general, be assured that a theory or model is received because there isn't a better one. That doesn't make the received one is good, but as a matter of policy it's probably better to try to use it to understand the world than some unaided phrenology.
382. AdamSelene - 11/11/1999 10:44:13 PM
Speaking as a theorist in my field, I want to point out that the hallmark of theory is not ignorance, disdain, or indifference toward data. A good model is one that accounts for observation; it is helpful to know at least some broad patterns if that's your goal. I don't view empiricists or empirical work as inferior, I just don't want to be one or do that kind of work.
In the dietary field, there was a lot of observation and model fitting that suggested that high-fat diets were harmful and carbohydrates were healthy. The evidence was merely suggestive but it fit the metabolic models then in use. (You are what you eat.) Unfortunately, these 'conclusions' became cultural myths that are almost impossible to root out, despite decades of actual studies which disprove them.
383. AdamSelene - 11/11/1999 10:54:43 PM
From one of my posts above:
"The idea that saturated fats cause heart disease is completely wrong, but the statement has been 'published' so many times over the last three or more decades that it is very difficult to convince people otherwise unless they are willing to take the time to read and learn what...produced the anti-saturated fat agenda." (Dr. Mary Enig, Consulting Editor to the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, President of the Maryland Nutritionists Association, and noted lipids researcher.)
"The diet-heart hypothesis [which suggests that high intake of saturated fat and cholesterol causes heart disease] has been repeatedly shown to be wrong, and yet, for complicated reasons of pride, profit and prejudice, the hypothesis continues to be exploited by scientists, fund-raising enterprises, food companies and even governmental agencies. The public is being deceived by the greatest health scam of the century." (Dr. George V. Mann, participating researcher in the Framingham study and author of CORONARY HEART DISEASE: THE DIETARY SENSE AND NONSENSE, Janus Publishing 1993.)
"Call it the Big Fat Lie. Fat has, through no real fault of its own, become the great demon of the American dietary scene. It is no myth that one-third of Americans are overweight. It is, however, a myth that Americans are overweight due to excessive fat consumption. (Dr. Richard K. Bernstein, Type I Diabetic and noted diabetic researcher.)
A recent study involving over 40,000 middle-aged and older American men over a period of six years found that there was no link between saturated fat intake and heart disease in men. It also supported the contention that linolenic acid (a form of fat) is preventive against heart disease. (Ascherio A et. al. Dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease in men: cohort follow up study in the United States. British Medical Journal, 1996 Jul 13, 313:7049, 84-90.)
384. SpenceMirrlees - 11/11/1999 11:08:57 PM
382
"Model fitting" isn't theory. It's empirics. Kind of by definition.
But anyway, what's your point? Theory at any time is generally worse than that which supercedes it. And? Is it useless? Shouldn't we have it?
If a profession does not succeed in spreading the word, ultimately it can only blame itself -- that much is true. Of course, it is doubtful that people got their impressions of dietary health from theorists and/or empiricists, and it is questionable how much responsibility researchers bear for the continuing misapprehension. Presumably the people in the trenches bear some responsibility for keeping their knowledge up to date and acting on it. In other words, it is the whole profession that's responsible.
385. AdamSelene - 11/11/1999 11:15:05 PM
384 - my point? None - just presenting evidence on the dichotomy between theorists (low-fat pushers, e.g., the AMA) and practicioners (low-carb pushers; an increasing number of MDs, especially for diabetics.)
386. JonesAtLaw - 11/11/1999 11:24:54 PM
Spence- I, for one, don't knock theorists as a rule. They are wonderful, I just object to their domination of academia at the undergraduate level or the first professional degree. Education without the theory or understanding of how theorists work in the field would be equally pointless. I just want a little more respect for pedagogy and the discipline as applied.
The only theory that is truly objectionable is that Notre Dame is the Football team of the century. Go Big Red!
387. PsychProf - 11/12/1999 8:57:03 AM
Dillon...the "Whole University"(post # 368)...what a bunch of dumb fucks they must be.
388. DanDillon - 11/12/1999 9:25:41 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at, PP.
389. PsychProf - 11/12/1999 9:28:02 AM
Dillon...noone at the program you attended taught material of worth? Why did you matriculate there? Why did you stay theere?
390. CalGal - 11/12/1999 2:48:17 PM
PP,
I realize this upsets you, but many people go to college for only one reason--because it gets them a better job when they get out.
Is this a bad reason to go to college? I suppose it depends on your values. For me, I think it's the only reason. I do not wish to dismiss you or your profession, but I am perfectly happy learning things by myself. The only reason I went to college was to get a piece of paper that told others that a qualified institution thought I was capable of learning.
Therefore, your indignation at someone's failure to matriculate if they weren't learning anything is not really justified. I learned nothing in college that I hadn't already learned in high school. I use next to none of my college education today or at any point after graduation. Should I have matriculated? Hell, no. I spent well under $2K for my college degree, and it was unquestionably the wisest investment I ever made. Learning what they had to teach me was irrelevant to the value college had in my life.
I am sure this mindset does not apply to Dillon, because he chose--as did you--to be a teacher.
Obviously, if someone felt that the purpose of college was to learn, and then complained about their school in such a fashion, your question would be spot on.
391. PsychProf - 11/12/1999 3:06:06 PM
Cal...I am neither upset or indignant...I just posted. I do feel badly that no college instructor inspired you beyond where you were, for you are clearly worth it.
392. PsychProf - 11/15/1999 10:51:18 AM
The Quest For Better Teachers:
Grading the States
393. JonesAtLaw - 11/15/1999 11:02:16 AM
PP- interesting report. It seems that teacher quality grades for the states with the highest national results for standardized testing score the most poorly on the report card. Iowa, Minnesota, North Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas all get bombed.
I agree that more autonomy at the school level is desirable, and that some accomodation should be made for alternative entry into the profession, but the report seems excessively anti-pedagogy. Every teacher needs to know the basics of educational psyschology, test construction, and human relations. In truth, I think that a one semseter program of classroom work, and a years worth of apprentice teaching would do for most educated people. That sort of cuts down on teachers college staff, though.
394. ranheim - 11/15/1999 2:35:03 PM
Was it in this thread that the name John Dewey popped up a week - or so -ago? I had not heard that name since my father took Dewey's name in vain.
In our local paper, Thomas Sowell make disparaging comments about Dewey in today's editorial page. "From the days of John Dewey on to the present, educational gurus have produced an unending succession of vague, slippery, and piously lofty writings - all leading off on a tangent from the hard job of teaching basic skills".
As I mentioned previously, my father - a math teacher, thought Dewey's ideas in regard the 'new math' were crazy. I had already completed high school when my father started fussing about the fact the Dewey's "foolishness" had reached rural MN. Dad believed that one learned the multiplication tables; etc. by rote. The 'new math' did away with all of that 'old stuff' that I recall the teacher leading : 6 x 6 is 36; 6 x 7 is 42; etc. Dad felt that 'new math' was good for 'math brains' only; it would harm the ordinary student. Best as I can tell, that is what has happened : the ordinary student knows very little math when he finished high school.
Second time in two weeks that the name John Dewey has popped up.
395. phillipdavid - 11/15/1999 8:59:36 PM
ranheim,
The hard job of teaching the basics was not something Dewey strived to change. The basics must be taught -- we all know that, and we have all always known that. It is just the question of _how_ they will be taught that Dewey addressed. If my memory serves me well (which is always questionable), what I remember about Dewey is that he focued on experience, i.e., learning by doing rather than the passive listening and memorization techniques prevalent in his day.
396. phillipdavid - 11/15/1999 9:11:00 PM
My Pedagogic Creed by John Dewey.
397. ranheim - 11/15/1999 9:17:59 PM
pd
As you know, I am not in the field of education.
But, dad was. He very rarely became angry. But, Dewey and the "simpletons surrounding him" made Dad apoplectic. He considered Dewey to be an unmitigated fool. He would rail against Dewey at the drop of a hat. He had choice words for all the theory coming out of Columbia in that era. Dad would use the word "scholar" as an epithet when referring to Dewey.
398. DanDillon - 11/17/1999 9:57:06 AM
Dewey and his ratiocinations, after enduring a century of new and not-so-new ideas, remain at the forefront of many educators' pedagogical philosophies. And those who don't cite Dewey are wont to use one of his apostles, such as A.N. Whitehead.
399. PsychProf - 11/17/1999 10:35:37 AM
400. ranheim - 11/17/1999 12:51:08 PM
pd & Dan
As I have said above, I am not in the field of education. Therefore, I cannot comment on Dewey's power of reasoning. Years ago, just prior to dad's death I tried to read one of Dewey's books. The medical field is absolutely loaded with books full of minutiae (see Pathology); so I am accustomed to have to read word by word & line by line. But Dewey! I would read sentences two or three times and they still made no sense! Did he obfuscate on purpose? Or was he spouting gooble-de-gook?
I was always suspect of JDRockefeller, Jr. and his charities. Dewey and Columbia were on JDR,Jr's list. Just so you will know that I am not picking on Dewey, others on JDR,Jr's list of whom somewhat suspicious are : Margaret Sanger; League of Nations' libraries; land that the UN sits on currently; The Urban League; colonial Williamsburg; among others.
401. JonesAtLaw - 11/18/1999 12:10:50 PM
Phillipdavid- Your diary is a stroll down memory lane. I can't believe that you don't have a daily plan period. That sucks. It was bad enough for me with one every day. (but then I am organizationally challenged)
402. phillipdavid - 11/18/1999 11:07:43 PM
ranheim,
Message # 400
I agree with you sentiments about reading Dewey's writing. I started to read that link I posted and tired out before I could make total sense out of it.
403. phillipdavid - 11/18/1999 11:21:08 PM
Jonesatlaw,
It is hard for me to feel too badly about it because I am actually very efficient compared to other teachers in my building. I plan well, work quickly, and get things done fast when my mind is into the task. I constantly hear talk around the lunch table of how long it takes some others to grade papers, how much work they take home most evenings, how many hours they work on Saturdays or Sundays catching up. I shiver with trepidation because I know if I had to do such things regularly that I would burn out quickly. I manage to get most of my work done during working hours, and only have to complain about the occassional weekend catching up.
Speaking of which, I managed to schedule the due dastes for an expository essay in my block classes and a reading standards assessment in my literature classes the day before Thanksgiving weekend. So I'll have approximately 40 expository essays to grade (~ ten minutes per) and approximately 75 reading assessments (which consist of three essays each! I know I will have to go through those more quickly than ten minutes per!) to grade over the long weekend. So any football games will only get a smidgeon of my attention.
404. JonesAtLaw - 11/19/1999 5:54:54 PM
Phillipdavid- I agree with your practice of integrating writing instruction into all of your work. It is the best argument for core classes. The only way to learn to write is to do it. The downside is the time necessary to really use their writing to teach them how to write. (And as soon as I talk of the topic I feel self-conscious in my posting)
Here is where smaller classes have the advantage. You can increase the feedback you give to kids, and have time to polish their work. A good life lesson, "do it until you have it right."
405. phillipdavid - 11/19/1999 8:36:52 PM
Jonesatlaw,
I agree about the benefits of small classes to writing instruction.
I have one class with 32 kids, but all the rest are about 20. The small class size is one of the prime reasons I have stayed in my school the last six years. Last year I even had one block class with just 12 or 13 kids. Other teachers would always razz me about that particular class, but since they were all top students (designated as "talented and gifted") they literally wore me out every day. So talkative, so many questions, never a moment to catch my breath. But I was able to take them to a very high level (relatively speaking)just because I was able to give each one so much feedback and attention.
Over in Table Talk a few months ago there was thread about the law that required low class sizes in California in the early primary grades. The host's (Paul Riccardi, I think) position was that no recognizable performance gains were achieved because of the small class sizes, and thus class size was not an important factor. He suggested that actual teaching methods were the real key to achieve improvement in student skills. His point has some merit, imo, but I really do believe that class size does have a huge impact on the quality of instruction that can be delivered just because of your point: better and more feedback can be given to the students.
406. phillipdavid - 11/19/1999 8:40:52 PM
And this is also a prime reason for block schedules. Block schedules enable teachers to interact with far fewer kids each day and this leads to a higher quality of feedback than can be delievered to each student. For example, if I teach 6 classes of writing each day, I may see between 120-180 kids. There is no way I can give really effective feedback to each kid, let alone do a comprehensive job grading their writing assignments. I wouldn't even have the literal time to assign many writing assignments because the chore of grading them would be too burdensome. But if I teach a block class, say a combination of history and language arts (which I do), I have the same group of kids for for several periods each day and thus would only see maybe 40 to 60 kids a day. I can give much better fedback and devote much more time grading writing assignments with the smaller number of students. And I have the time to assign more writing assignments -- and like you said, the way to improve skills is to do it until you have it right.
btw, I wish you wouldn't have metioned your self-consciousness! Now, I fear, I will become afflicted too.
407. PsychProf - 11/22/1999 1:40:44 PM
408. PsychProf - 11/22/1999 2:11:42 PM
409. PsychProf - 11/22/1999 2:13:52 PM
410. arkymalarky - 11/22/1999 7:12:23 PM
Our kids are pretty good at writing, and when we had a statewide test almost all of them passed the writing portion and almost none of them passed the math portion. Content-wise they're often lacking. Give them a basic prompt and they can write a clear, well-organized essay. Ask them to analyze something they've read and they're at a loss. In my advanced classes we work on reading comprehension and improving their ability to write good analytical essays of the type required on the AP test. It's tough and we all get frustrated sometimes, but the kids consistently come back to tell me how much the classes helped them in college.
I think the problem is essentially the same with math and reading, and that is that the students haven't worked enough on thinking deeply on their own. Some of them are afraid to, they're so insecure about their ability to figure things out. They will turn something in and ask me not to laugh when I grade it.
411. Buck Mulligan - 11/23/1999 10:16:11 AM
I have some thoughts on the difficulty with math. Most people, when learning about a new math topic, approach it as formal manipulation of symbols. That is, they learn to recognize patterns, like "2+2=_", and they learn an appropriate response to the pattern, "4". This is a reasonable approach at first, and even skilled mathematicians use it. At some point, however, we want to take the next step and learn to interpret the meanings carried by the symbols. We want to think about ideas that drive the mathematics.
I work with young college students, and many of them don't take this step. It's not just a matter of it being difficult for them. It doesn't even occur to them that they should try to make it. Based on my disscussions with them, I'm beginning to think that no one has ever tried to present mathematics to them as anything but a set of formal rules for manipulating symbols. Nobody has helped them find the meaning behind the symbols.
How does this relate to the statewide math test arky mentioned? If a student is extremely good at recognizing patterns and reproducing approriate responses to those patterns, then they can do very well on most tests. But most of us are not very good at doing that. We screw up, either by failing to recognize the pattern, or by providing an inappropriate response.
I must admit that I have no idea how to help students to understand the information content of mathematics, but if I could then I could become a more effective teacher.
412. Buck Mulligan - 11/23/1999 10:28:32 AM
Here is an example to illustrate my point. Take a class of good math students. Give them some data to analyze, and make sure that they know how to perform the calculations they need to perform.
Now that you have this picture in your head, let's throw the students a curve ball. Ask them how many decimal places of accuracy they should try to obtain in their calculations. If you're feeling mean spirited, ask them to justify their answer. In my experience, many college freshmen cannot answer these questions.
413. JonesAtLaw - 11/23/1999 10:32:45 AM
Buck- I am afraid that I am a product of "the New Math" and am terribly screwed up by it. Fortunately, my career requires only arithmatic. I recall that when I was in sixth grade, my father (an ex-mathmetician and teacher) was amazed at what we were studying- that he had never worked with many of the concepts we were expected to learn until he was in college. Traditionally, computation and the mechanics were mastered, and only when the student had a grounding in the mechanics was real theory brought in. Now you report that you have students with adaquate skills in the mechanics, and they flounder at theory. Seems we've come full circle.
It seems that we must integrate some portion of the theory or at least of application of theory to the mechanics. Perhaps the new math went overboard with this, but it would be interesting to see how some of it could be integrated into math instruction. I think that the dreaded "story problem" approach in earlier grades may help. There there is some focus on application of theory and emphasis on the computation as a real world relationship. Or are you concerned with matters beyond my understanding?
414. Buck Mulligan - 11/23/1999 10:42:25 AM
I think that "story problems" would be helpful, although we still have to see if students are really reasoning their way through problems or if they are merely following a recipe.
Mathematicians think of math as carrying information, even (or especially) in the absence of real world applications, but we're the exception. Most people don't need to bother with such stuff, although it would be gratifying if they recognized that it is possible to do so.
415. Dantheman - 11/23/1999 10:49:04 AM
Buck/Jones,
I am a product of Unified Math, which is similar in concept to New Math. We learned much theory, including elements of formal logic and set theory at an early time (8th-9th grade), and matrix multiplication and polar coordinates in 10th grade. It enabled us to have a calculus course equivalent to first year's college in 12th grade. I think it served me well, but I am certainly in the minority who thinks that. I think there was too little time spent on why the theory is important outside the class room, and agree with Jones that story problems could have helped. (I encountered more of them as captain of my school's Mathletes than in class.) It probably only should have been taught to the best 5% of the class, not 15-20% as was done.
416. JonesAtLaw - 11/23/1999 10:50:02 AM
Buck- our family take on math is that for some people, numbers are not abstractions but real things. They have meaning and identity on their own- sort of Pythagorean. Some clearly have that sort of mind. My father is one, and a friend of mine in high school another. My friend would try to help me with advanced algebra. It drove me crazy- he would "see" four steps in reducing equations while I would have to laboriously wade through each one. When the numbers are "real" in your mind, relationships between them are as obivous at looking at a stack of objects on a table. You can see what happens if you pull any given object out of the pile, or add to it etc. Perhaps more representational examples of mathmatics would help folks like me who "don't get it"
417. Buck Mulligan - 11/23/1999 10:59:58 AM
Jones,
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Of course, I don't want to train a bunch of neo-Pythagoreans. I just want to help people reason about quantitative information. This will help them to be better at math, and to be sharper thinkers in general.
Actually, I have to confess that I have decide to leave teaching, at least for now. I'm going to work in the software industry, where job prospects are better. Teaching is fun, but I've got to keep a roof over my head.
418. JonesAtLaw - 11/23/1999 11:06:24 AM
Buck- I don't blame you, but it's a pity that you're leaving teaching. I wish that we valued people skilled at teaching as much the product of their work.
419. ChristiPeters - 11/23/1999 11:15:09 AM
We have three teachers working in our marketing department and two in planning. They all said their reasons were on the order of Buck's "Teaching is fun, but I've got to keep a roof over my head."
&:o( 'Tis a shame, ain't it.
420. PsychProf - 11/23/1999 1:52:57 PM
421. CalGal - 11/23/1999 5:02:57 PM
I went up through Calculus in high school, for no good reason I can think of.
I was very good at "proofs"--at least, that's what they were called? One would be given a picture, or a graph, and it would say Prove x is always < cos/sin*3.23212314235 or something like that. I was always coming up with proofs that shocked and amazed my teachers--they would expect thirty steps, and I would make the case in four, using some oddball association they weren't expecting.
But I had no idea what a cos was. Or a sin. Or a tangent, cotangent, or any of those things. I remember once in Calculus, I asked the teacher a question and he said, well, look at the area you're solving for. I looked at him instead. He said, a tad impatiently, "Look at the area--the one you are calculating." I said, in astonishment, "That's what I'm doing? Calculating an area?" Looked at the book and yes, indeed, it seemed that all these numbers I had plugged into various equations that I was now trying to resolve were associated with one particular part of the picture.
The point, if it's not clear: I was completely disassociated from the spatial/numeric/physical aspects of mathematics. Formulas and equations were just relationships to be solved. It wasn't that I hadn't been exposed to the seamier, grittier, more physical aspects of math; my mind just ignored them.
I realize that using MB terms gets danders up, but it seems the educational community might do better to realize that different methods are needed to educate sensors. The school system is pretty much geared towards intuitives right now. Or perhaps this difference is recognized under another name?
422. arkymalarky - 11/23/1999 5:22:25 PM
Buck,
I read the remarks on your id a while back, and remembered seeing a Blazes Boylan somewhere, I think in TT. I hate to hear you're leaving teaching, as well. I'm trying to keep my husband from making the same move. We're used to being poor, but the sheer frustration with the lack of support the math department gets in a lot of schools and the level the students are on by the time he gets them in high school has about got him whupped, even though he likes the kids and has made real progress with them. When he went back to college as an older student he decided to major in math after twenty years away from it and only Algebra I and one semester of geometry in high school. He rarely worked a problem in college except on the tests, but he studied and thought math constantly. I think he would agree with you 100%.
423. arkymalarky - 11/23/1999 10:11:13 PM
Today I enjoyed one of the perks of public school teaching that make it all worthwhile--lunchroom turkey and dressing with homemade rolls. Tomorrow the home ec kids are cooking for the teachers. We're having homemade potato soup and broccoli cornbread. I didn't catch the rest of the menu, but I know it will be good. Then from now until after Christmas there'll be something fattening in the lounge almost daily. Adam, I can see I'm going to have to get with you on that Atkins diet after the holidays.
Speaking of lunchroom food, the worst I ever heard of was from the first school where my husband taught. They had "baloney cup" on their menu. He asked what it was, and they told him it was a slice of curled-up fried baloney filled with instant mashed potatoes.
424. phillipdavid - 11/25/1999 12:14:26 AM
Arky,
Our school's lunchroom food is always very good. But I resist it as often as I can because it is simply too calorie rich for me. Others who do not resist are really tipping the scales. If I eat school lunches, I want to take a nap afterwards, or I get grumpy. Just too much of my blood rushes to my tummy to handle it to allow me to function well otherwise. The same is true for the kids; my morning classes always operate at a faster pace than my afternoon classes.
425. arkymalarky - 11/25/1999 11:12:29 AM
I'm the same way. I treat myself to the turkey and that's about it. I also had to quit eating out at the local places with the other teachers. The two small town cafes have daily lunch specials which are great comfort food, but lots of gravy, etc.
I hope all the teachers in here (and everyone else) are having a good Thanksgiving.
426. DanDillon - 11/30/1999 8:23:23 AM
I'm beginning to think that no one has ever tried to present mathematics to [students] as anything but a set of formal rules for manipulating symbols. Nobody has helped them find the meaning behind the symbols. How does this relate to the statewide math test arky mentioned? If a student is extremely good at recognizing patterns and reproducing approriate responses to those patterns, then they can do very well on most tests. But most of us are not very good at doing that. We screw up, either by failing to recognize the pattern, or by providing an inappropriate response.
The same goes for the study of grammar. Buck makes a compelling argument for doing away with traditional grammar and turning to something more analytical, practical, and, yes, even intuitive. Transformational grammar asks the student to look beyond the parts of speech, abstractly identified and defined as they are, and see sentence-level permutations that reveal very clear and strict syntactical patterns. Once these patterns have been uncovered, the student possesses the tools to write well and understand even the most arcane prose. Symbols be damned. Give them something useful.
427. Buck Mulligan - 11/30/1999 10:18:54 AM
I should clarify something. Sometimes it is very useful to think of mathematics, and perhaps grammar also, as a set of formal rules. We want to develop the flexibility to look at problems from a variety of angles as the situation dictates.
428. phillipdavid - 12/1/1999 9:27:42 PM
DanDillon,
"Transformational grammar asks the student to look beyond the parts
of speech, abstractly identified and defined as they are, and see
sentence-level permutations that reveal very clear and strict syntactical
patterns."
Can you say this in another way for me? I'm not sure I fully get what you mean.
429. ilyavinarsky - 12/1/1999 9:29:54 PM
CalGal reminded me of a fun story a guy who studied at Moscow State University told me.
A certain professor asked a biology student, "Can cos x be equal to 2?" The student said, Yes, and received an F. He then asked a mathematics student the same question. The student said, No, and also received an F.
430. Stumbo - 12/2/1999 2:50:30 AM
Heh heh.
Bonus question: justify the statement,
431. DanDillon - 12/2/1999 11:11:16 AM
pd,
I'd be happy to. Transformational grammar is basically a set of artificial rules that mimic our intuitive knowledge of our language. It describes, or replicates if you like, that intuitive knowledge in a formal, explicit, and conscious manner. By studying a set of artificial rules that mimic our ability then, we gain considerable insight into our intuitive, internalized rule system, much in the same way we attempt to understand abstract principles and theories, such as democracy or beauty.
Transformational grammar operates under two simple assumptions: our knowledge of a language is manifested in our ability to 1) distinguish between grammatical and ungrammatical sentences in our language, and 2) recognize the structure of grammatical sentences, including our ability to recognize structural ambiguities with a sentence. The abilities that these assumptions encompass reflect a highly complex set of internalized, unconscious rules that govern the structure of English sentences. Grammatical sentences are those sentences whose structure conforms to the unconscious rules. Conversely, ungrammatical sentences are those whose structure violates some aspect of the unconscious rules, as in the following:
- There's a fly in my soup, isn't it?
- I am knowing what means that.
- She turned the radio just now on.
Even though native speakers cannot always articulate what rules these sentences have broken, we are nonetheless, keenly aware that rules have indeed been broken. We have so fully internalized this elaborate set of sentence structure rules that we are unaware of their existence until someone comes along and breaks them. In other words, even though we do not consciously know the rules, we act as though we did.
432. DanDillon - 12/2/1999 11:12:08 AM
Our ability to make this kind of judgment on grammatical and ungrammatical sentences is so effortless that it is easy to overlook the magnitude of the knowledge that makes that judgment possible in the first place.
All of us have a strong sense of grammaticality that has nothing to do with either prior experience of a particular sentence or conscious knowledge of the rules of English. (Most of us were deprived of adequate grammar instruction in school or were "sentenced to death," diagramming in a void.) The number of possible sentences in English is so vast that every combination of words we encounter is new to us, except for ritualized greetings and other such conventional expressions. For example, how many sentences in this post can you recall having read before? To take another example, it is highly unlikely that you have ever seen the following sentence:
A number of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches have been placed into orbit around the earth by a powerful merry-go-round.
Yet through your intuitive knowledge of English you know that this is a grammatical sentence. Likewise, you have never seen this same sentence with the words backwards:
Merry-go-round powerful a by orbit earth into placed been have sandwiches jelly and butter peanut of number a.
Again, through your intuitive knowledge of English you know that this is an ungrammatical sentence. Transformational grammar essentially systematizes and codifies that intuitive knowledge we already have.
[If you'd like to me to continue, perhaps we should head over to Language. Otherwise, there you have it.]
433. ranheim - 12/2/1999 1:55:08 PM
I - as a non-educator - am recalling dad : a math professor.
Some of this was started by my saying that dad had no use for John Dewey and his ?NEW? ways of teaching at the high school level.
It seems to me - possibly simplistically - that Dewey changed the traditional ways of teaching arithmatic/math; English; spelling; etc.
I can't speak to other subjects but dad STRONGLY believed that the 'New Math' was good ONLY FOR MATH BRAINS. He felt that us ordinary math soldiers would by hurt by the new math. So far as I can tell, this is what happened.
A non-educator cannot really follow the battle over phonics. But, it seems to this outsider that lack of phonics has provided us with too many who cannot read - or speak. At least correctly. e.g. in the south there is Ebonics. I realize that lack of phonics is not the only cause of Ebonics.
434. CalGal - 12/2/1999 2:01:24 PM
To take another example, it is highly unlikely that you have ever seen the following sentence:
Someone hasn't been reading his Terry Pratchett.
435. PsychProf - 12/2/1999 2:24:43 PM
436. DanDillon - 12/2/1999 5:30:12 PM
CG,
I'm afraid you've sacrificed effective communication for arcane literary allusion. Come again?
437. CalGal - 12/2/1999 5:39:40 PM
Well, it isn't sacrificed to anyone who knows Terry Pratchett.
Everyone else is supposed to think, "Hmm. Is there really an author who writes stories about peanut butter sandwiches orbiting merry-go-rounds? I need to check this out!"
438. DanDillon - 12/2/1999 6:18:49 PM
Actually, it's the merry-go-round that sends the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches into orbit. Yes, I must have read some other author as a youngster.
439. phillipdavid - 12/2/1999 7:43:07 PM
Thanks, Dan.
"Transformational grammar is basically a set of artificial rules that mimic our intuitive knowledge of our language."
Are these rules any different than the normal rules we were taught in school? (My knowledge of grammar is very skimpy, btw; I basically know just enough to write with only an occassional small mistake.) I ask because I am interested in learning the rules -- whether transformational or normal -- and would like to do so in an efficient, easy manner.
440. DanDillon - 12/3/1999 8:47:29 AM
pd,
Are these rules any different than the normal rules we were taught in school?
Radically different. Classical transformational grammar for English consists of two components--two sets of artificial rules. The first set, called "phrase structure rules," produces abstract grammatical structures that, when combined with vocabulary, generate basic sentences. These basic sentences are grammatical abstractions that underlie real sentences. These basic sentences are called deep structures, a major tenet of Chomsky's theory. (He's the mastermind behind all of this generative-transformational grammar business.)
The second set of rules, the "transformational rules," converts the abstract deep structures into representations of actual sentences, called surface structures, the companion cornerstone of Chomsky's work.
A single deep structure can be transformed into a number of related surface structures by applying different optional transformational rules. To illustrate, "Tom painted the fence today." (deep structure or kernel sentence) can be transformed into a passive surface structure: "The fence was painted by Tom today." In this case, the transformational rules have considerably reshaped the sentence. In transformational terms, the active and passive forms have the same basic meaning precisely because they share a single common ancestor--the same deep structure.
Another example:
1. John gave Fred a message. (deep structure or kernel sentence)
2. Fred was given a message by John. (passive transformation)
3. John gave a message to Fred. (dative switch)
4. A message was given to Fred by John. (dative switch + passive)
441. DanDillon - 12/3/1999 8:48:09 AM
Perhaps the most important construct to be gleaned from this crash course comes from the "phrase structure rules" mentioned above. Transformational grammar identifies ten basic sentence patterns in English. There are innumerable transformations for each of them, but the ten kernel sentence patterns allow for all possible grammatical sentences in English.
Rather than listing them here, I would encourage you and anyone else interested in learning how English works on the intuitive level to seek them out in any of several books, articles, and textbooks. Chomsky's Syntactic Structures is the original source. Learn them. Internalize them. (You're halfway there already.) And then use them. Traditional grammar, what you refer to as "normal rules," be damned.
442. PsychProf - 12/3/1999 11:06:10 AM
FOR CAL
click on photo 
443. PsychProf - 12/14/1999 2:36:15 PM
444. phillipdavid - 12/17/1999 12:03:05 AM
My vacation starts after tomorrow, and as always I have mixed emotions. Been working extremely hard these last two weeks, and I have been working the kids extremely hard too (we've been studying the Constitution and writing persuasive essays the last two weeks -- both very difficult tasks), so we are all ready for a break. But I actually like going to work in the mornings. I get to hang out with great company, laugh and smile most of the day...and I actually look forward to vacation ending so I can resume the fun.
btw, I haven't kept up my diary here, but I have kept it up on my class' webpage. I've decided to keep it up all year if I can muster the energy to do so. If anyone wants to read it -- anyone that I know and that already knows my name -- email me at home and I'll give you the address. Keeping the daily record of what I did in class each day is proving to be quite enlightening; it at least enriches my memory and perspective when I look back on it, and I believe I will be quite interested in re-reading it sometime in the future.
I have gotten some incredibly positive feedback from parents who appreciate a detailed record of what went on in class each day. Even a school board member emailed me with her thanks the other day -- she appreciated seeing an account of some worthwhile work being done in my classes, and she thought it was a great public relations tool. Another positive benefit has been that the counselor at school has read part of it, and she told me that she is already lining up some of the best and brightest 7th graders to put in my classes next year.
445. angel-five - 12/17/1999 12:05:45 AM
Oo! Oo! Mister Kotter! Mister Kotter! Can I be in your class?
Seriously, Felipe, that's great.
446. arkymalarky - 12/17/1999 6:31:22 AM
I really appreciate the diary, Phillip. I'll look forward to reading more as the year goes along.
We need a break where I work since we do finals before the holiday and all of us are stressed. So far my kids have done well on their finals. I gave the English ones yesterday and I give the history ones today.
I could echo your sentiments completely, Phillip, as I love my workdays and my whole work environment, but I do enjoy my down time. The thing I like most about time off is not having to get up so early. In all my years of teaching I've never become a morning person. Once it's time to leave the house I feel great, but that first thirty minutes after I get up is a drag. My daughter has to catch the bus between 6:30 and 6:45. I saw a news segment a while back that said kids are having to start their school days too early and it negatively affects their performance. I'm all for a 9:00-4:30 day, as opposed to 8:00-3:30.
I've had a great semester and the kids have really worked hard (most of them, anyway). I just don't remember things being as hectic and demanding when I was in school. My exchange students have been fun, but we've all been so busy I haven't had time to visit with them and learn from them like I wanted to. When we do research next semester I'm going to have them work up some materials for me on their countries and their languages, including cassette tapes.
447. DanDillon - 12/17/1999 9:02:55 AM
I just don't remember things being as hectic and demanding when I was in school.
That's because you're now on the other side of the teacher's desk.
Enjoy winter break! (I'll be addressing wedding invitations, designing our wedding program, setting up my new computer, planning a unit on Wiesels' Night and, if there's any time left, doing some pleasure reading.)
448. MizPhys - 12/17/1999 10:29:30 AM
I agree with you, Arky, that school starts too early. Ours begins at 7:20 and ends at 1:45. The district uses the same buses to make 4 runs--K-2, 3-5, middle school, and high school. High school starts the earliest, then middle school at 8:00, K-2 at 8:45, and 3-5 at 9:30. I suppose that the rationale for this order is that parents don't want their little ones out in the dark, but educational research shows that younger children learn better in the morning than adolescents do. It's also terribly inconvenient for parents who have to be at work at 8:00 and have to make arrangements for a half-hour or hour of daycare in the morning.
449. theDiva - 12/17/1999 10:37:27 AM
Fizzy
They do something similar in our county....the rationale is that it is a cost-saving measure, so there you have 14 year olds standing in the pitch dark on a winter morning, as early as 6:20, waiting for the bus. Sounds real safe to me. Jaysus.
450. MizPhys - 12/17/1999 10:40:04 AM
Plus they're like zombies for the first couple of periods because their brains haven't woken up yet.
I enjoy finishing work so early, but I'd gladly trade it for starting later and having alert students.
451. theDiva - 12/17/1999 10:43:05 AM
I've heard about those studies, and wondered. The older Gracie gets, the harder it is for me to get her going in the morning. I shudder to think what will happen when she starts high school GASP! less than two years from now.
452. Dantheman - 12/17/1999 10:46:07 AM
I also have heard early shifts for high school is because so many kids want to have after school jobs. Just what our education system needs -- half asleep students who have extra money for cars or the latest looks.
453. Dantheman - 12/17/1999 10:46:33 AM
whoops -- is=are
454. theDiva - 12/17/1999 10:47:32 AM
Good Lord, I hope such a thing isn't driving public policy.
455. phillipdavid - 12/17/1999 7:36:48 PM
I actually like early morning starts. Work day starts at 7 for me and classes start at 7:40 and end at 2:30.
Many students are not as vibrant so early in the day, but we all slow down in the afternoon; after lunch, all of us just work slower. I would have to start drinking pop or coffee in the afternoons to stay awake if I taught until 4 P.M. 3:30 is my nap time!
I was the school scrooge today, giving two tests while almost everybody else was having parties. My philosophy is it's best to work the kids fairly hard this week rather than taking it easy -- showing movies or having parties as many of the techers did. And my kids came through pretty well. They knew vacation was just days away, so they could push themselves a little harder knowing it would end soon. It's good training, is what I think, and this week was the perfect time to do it. Training them (yes, "training," because, as awful as it sounds, teaching 8th graders is very much like traing a dog) to push themselves and work extra hard for short bursts is a valuable lesson -- one that I didn't learn until I was in college.
456. Ronski - 12/22/1999 9:58:35 AM
The NY Daily News reports today (12/22) that a high school anatomy class in Tennessee was made to construct a nativity scene out of cat cadavers.
Said one student, "It was disgusting."
Said the principal, "(It) gave students the opportunity to work as a team with their homeroom teacher with a holiday spirit activity."
Yo, Liberals:
Do you really want to give these people more of the taxpayers' money? Do you really want to hire more of these people with Federal revenues?
457. arkymalarky - 12/22/1999 10:46:03 AM
Federal revenues pay for precious little public school education, but instead of projecting one wacky story onto the whole of public schooling, let's take whatever money that school gets and give it to mine, which has almost half the student body on free or reduced lunches yet manages to maintain the highest SAT-9 scores of any school in the area, comfortably above the state average, excellent ACT scores, and a graduation and post-high school education rate to make any school proud.
458. Ronski - 12/22/1999 11:30:53 AM
arky,
Recognizing that anecdotes do not tell the story (though I believe this one is indicative of much that is wrong with public education), as an incentive for hard work, and, last but not least, in the spirit of the holiday season, I'll go along with your proposal.
459. CalGal - 12/26/1999 9:26:15 PM
Work Visas for Foreign Teachers:
When the stock market-obsessed U.S. deems a profession to be too menial for its best and brightest, it imports drudge workers from abroad. At some point, teaching — once seen as noble — took on the status of low-end work, both in salary and prestige. So this week Chicago received federal clearance to become the second major city in recent years to import talent from abroad. The Windy City finds itself unable to fill at least 400 teaching vacancies each year, and it's not alone — earlier this year the Department of Labor declared a critical national labor shortage in teaching areas including science, mathematics and bilingual education. In October, Congress approved $1.2 billion for teacher training and hiring, but many on the Hill say the schools won't be able to find qualified teachers to use up the funds.
The deciding blow in forcing the INS's approval of work visas for teachers came from Education Secretary Richard Riley who, at a recent White House conference, declared that a quarter-million American teachers are either unfamiliar with the subjects they teach or lack any manner of training. The Chicago experiment will therefore be closely watched. A smaller program initiated in New York City last year, in which mathematics teachers were brought in from Austria, is getting high marks and was expanded this year. If the Chicago program shows similar success, educators expect Congress to adapt a wide-scale recruitment plan. Indeed, the U.S. actively recruits doctors, scientists and technology experts from abroad; why not raise the quality of the labor sector most often criticized by experts and parents alike?
460. joezan - 12/26/1999 9:35:16 PM
That's nonsense. I don't see any wave of Austrian teachers coming over here to work for a bunch of snotty American kids. Just raise our teachers' pay.
461. CalGal - 12/26/1999 9:41:57 PM
Hell, the majority of math and science teachers are woefully incompetent (no offense intended to those we know here). You don't think there are ambitious Europeans who want a way to get over here and live the good life?
462. joezan - 12/26/1999 10:08:20 PM
The good life? If that's how Chicago hopes to lure teachers over from Europe, they'd better use some other district as their example and hope no one catches on.
463. DanDillon - 12/26/1999 10:15:45 PM
This shortage of teachers goes well beyond qualified staff. There's a real dearth of substitute teachers in and around my district as well. Maybe teaching is below even the fresh-out-of-college and geriatric crowds.
Hell, it ain't pretty, but Mondays are never my enemy.
I thought there was a large number of people abandoning their cubicles for life in the classroom. Wasn't it just a few years ago that we were told we'd be competing with a bunch of sales associates and middle managers?
464. CalGal - 12/26/1999 10:18:05 PM
I dunno. I realize that I was assuming that teachers get paid (relatively) more in the US than Europe, which may not be true.
But if you are right, then it will be simple: the moment that we can't even import teachers, then it is proof that we aren't paying them enough.
I suspect that we will indeed get teachers who are eager to come over here on work visas. But I'm always happy to be proven wrong.
465. joezan - 12/26/1999 10:27:16 PM
Cal:
Well, we may be able to attract them - in droves, even.
...from Mexico.
But I don't think anyone will ever go for importing teachers from countries whose educational standards are lower than our own. And, generally, those countries (whose educational standards are higher), pay their teachers enough that, I'm sure, working in the US is no attraction.
466. CalGal - 12/26/1999 10:29:28 PM
No, obviously it will only work if they get European or Asian teachers with decent English skills. But the article implies that this isn't a problem.
467. arkymalarky - 12/27/1999 8:18:04 AM
Actually, it's not that the math and science teachers are incompetent, it's that they can't find certified people at all. There aren't nearly enough of them in a lot of places and they're hiring non-certified people or those who couldn't hold down a job of courtesy clerk at the local Wal-Mart, but who happen to know math and science and be able to get a degree in one or the other. I've known two or three in that category, who know their math, but have absolutely zero job or people skills. They're about all that's available, though. Bob's math professor told him that math majors are getting snapped up by businesses before they even finish college and getting diverted to other areas with bonuses. As an older student who was not intending to relocate, teaching was the best option for Bob. He graduated in Dec, never applied for a job, and got three or four calls with job offers and was hired by a neighboring school to mine within days of his graduation.
468. KuligintheHooligan - 12/29/1999 8:10:06 AM
Then I thought to myself, "Why not post in every thread?"
469. phillipdavid - 1/1/2000 11:41:18 AM
I'm going back to work today. Have a stack of literature papers to grade (I couldn't ever chide my students again for being slackers if I didn't get my work done!), and January's lesson plans to create.
I suspect I'll see a whole bunch of teachers in the building today doing the same.
I am actually ready to go back. I miss the daily discipline and structure work adds to my life. Too much vacation gets me too restless. I miss the challenges, the constant humor, the constant smiles, the stress of managing numerous things and numerous kids at once and the satisfaction of getting them all done on time and responding to all the kids in a helpful way.
Of course, my perspective will change a bit as soon as I walk in the door today and start grading papers. That is tedious business. It will serve as a quick reminder to myself to never leave something for tomorrow that I could get done today-- as I could have graded that stack of papers and made lesson plans before vacation started.
470. phillipdavid - 1/4/2000 2:16:04 AM
Had a calm first post-vacation day back at school.
I taught my three literature/speech classes today, and had my prep period; it was tranquil as I had the kids read their novels all period.
I started off each period with Irving's Christmas story -- the one where his kids demonstrated the true spirit of Christmas to the backyard squatters. I thought this would be good because we had to say something about our just ended vacation, and it is a touchy subject for many of the kids--many simnply did not have a good Christmas, while others were showered with material things. So rather than have kids talk about what they got, as some are wont to do, I told them the story of my friend who lives in Bali whose kids demonstrated a real Christanms spirit.
The story went over very well (it is a great story, afterall!), and quelled any other proclivity the kids might have had to talk about what they got, which was good for those who didn't have a jolly time. It also put them in a suitable thoughtful and reflective mood -- they sat quietly and read their novels all period.
I am actually anxious for tomorrow because my day will be more exciting and busy. We are starting a imaginative essay in writing class, and we are gonna review the Constitution and Bill of Rights in history class -- always sure to engender lively conversation! We also will study a new vocabulary list, and that is always fun. Playing with new words is such a gas as I have the kids team up and do skits using some of the new words, and these skits are always fun and very entertaining. The kids are full of energy, there is lots of creativity and laughing -- so tomorrow will be a more action-filled and smile-filled day for me.
471. PsychProf - 1/6/2000 3:44:07 PM
472. PsychProf - 1/9/2000 1:04:48 PM
473. wonkers2 - 1/13/2000 11:31:13 PM
Here's some sage advice on university admissions policy by former Michigan governor (GOP), William Milliken: Milliken op-ed.
474. wonkers2 - 1/13/2000 11:47:45 PM
One more try! milliken 0p-ed.
475. wonkers2 - 1/13/2000 11:51:28 PM
Wow! It actually worked! Michigan's GOP sorely misses Bill Milliken, a wise and generous man.
476. PsychProf - 1/17/2000 12:53:44 PM
SO YA WANNA SERVE ON A SCHOOL BOARD
477. wonkers2 - 1/17/2000 1:09:11 PM
Jackson is right. Zero tolerance is an over-reaction to a real problem that needs to be dealt with. But not in a mechanistic, heavy handed way. Michigan school principals and school boards in recent weeks have been complaining publicly about the state's recent zero tolerance statute. They say it takes away from their discretion to deal with incidents in their schools as they see fit in a commonsense and practical way and forces them to expel too many students for incidents that could better be handled by measures far short of expulsion. IMO, zero tolerance is fine but it needn't and shouldn't mean automatic expulsion. Expulsion should be reserved for the most serious cases involving deadly weapons (not pen knives attached to antique watches brought innocently to show and tell by third graders) or seriously violent behavior. Likewise students shouldn't be expelled for posession of Adville or aspirin as if it were cocaine or heroin. Ordinary fights, shoving and the like should not be ignored but should be dealt with, in the first instance, by counseling, warnings, involving the parents, probation or other punishment short of expulsion.
478. PsychProf - 1/17/2000 1:11:41 PM
Wonkers2...How would you characterize a raging mob at an athletic event...shoving and pushing? Have you seen the tape of this event?
479. wonkers2 - 1/17/2000 5:45:17 PM
Yes, I have seen the tape. And when I was in high school I once was caught up in a similar event. One kid insults another, gets punched, and pretty soon you have a good brawl. In Decatur I didn't see any weapons or read that any were used. And I don't remember that anyone was severely injured. Therefore, in my opinion, the two-year expulsion meted out by the school board, which is charged with educating all students, was massive overkill. Without having all the facts, I hesitate to say what discipline was appropriate. It's hard to establish who started the brawl or to determine degrees of blame in situations like that, but it's possible that some who were less to blame and who may have had good academic and disciplinary records were expelled along with those who started the fight and who had previously caused similar problems. It would have been worthwhile to try to sort this out if possible. Possibly some of the students deserved to be expelled for a period and possibly others didn't. My impression was that the Board didn't try to sort this out but just came down mindlessly with a two year expulsion. This is what is happening here in Michigan, where so far this year, if my memory is correct, more than 250 boys have been expelled for fighting, more than double the number in previous years before the so-called zero tolerance law was passed by the jackasses in our state legislature.
What do you think the Decatur Board should have done?
480. wonkers2 - 1/17/2000 6:01:16 PM
Legislatures and school boards would be well advised to stay out of such situations insofar as possible and leave the matter of discipline to school principals and teachers. School boards should tell the principals--We are concerned about growing disciplinary problems in the schools, especially those which involve weapons, violence against students or teachers and illegal drugs and alcohol. We expect you to take firm and appropriate action in all instances that come to your attention, using commonsense and taking into account all of the circumstances in each case. In general, the minimum action necessary to convince the student not to repeat the misconduct should be applied. This may be a student-teacher-parent conference, suspension of school privileges or participation in team sports, probation, suspension from school for a brief period or, in the most serious cases, expulsion and turning the matter over to juvenile law enforcement authorities. Before suspending a student or bringing in law enforcement authorities the matter should be discussed with the Superintendent of Schools and, as appropriate, the Board.
481. joezan - 1/17/2000 7:29:09 PM
wonkers:
They say it takes away from their discretion to deal with incidents in their schools...
That, and their funding.
BTW, over here, on the side of the state with the nice cops, the schools are very happy with the way zero tolerance has worked out. Takes much of the guess-work, and most of the subjectivity out of the disciplinary process.
482. joezan - 1/17/2000 7:38:26 PM
wonk:
Before suspending a student or bringing in law enforcement authorities the matter should be discussed with the Superintendent of Schools and, as appropriate, the Board.
What about due process? An assault has taken place, and you want to keep the victim from the cops - deny him the opportunity to press charges?
When a teacher has the slightest suspicion that a student has been beaten by his parents/caregivers, the teacher is legally bound to report his suspicions to the authorities immediately. There is no "referring the matter to the school board" - in fact, if that were to happen, there'd be lawsuits.
Why should the schools not be just as duty-bound to report the abuse of otherstudents?
483. Jonesy - 1/17/2000 11:12:03 PM
It borders on disrespect for the dead to invoke Dr. King's memory in defense of the hooligans who ruthelessly beat other students. As the Christian he was, I am sure that Dr. King would have welcomed any confession and repentence shown by the hooligans, but clearly, he would have held them to account for the violence that he opposed at such risk to himself and others.
484. wonkers2 - 1/17/2000 11:51:58 PM
Joezan, My comment obviously went to student misconduct, not suspected parental abuse. Second, nothing I said indicated any intention of preventing anyone who wanted to report a problem to the police from doing so. Are you suggesting that every time two kids get into a fight on the playground or bring a pocket knife to school that the school should call the police? If so, we have a big difference of opinion about the role of law enforcement in the educational process. I guess it's my problem with authority popping up again, but for most school discipline problems, the last people I would want involved are the police. Are you a supporter of the Michigan "no tolerance law?" Do you think schools should be required by law to expel or suspend students who commit any violent act, eg get into a fistfight after school or trip another student in the hall or throw a snowball at a passing car?
485. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 12:01:22 AM
Jonesy, Nobody is suggesting that any student who commits a violent act not be held to account. What we are talking about is how they should be held to account, ie, what their punishment should be. Whether it was necessary or appropriate to expel them from school for two years. Christianity calls for forgiveness, not vindictiveness.
486. joezan - 1/18/2000 12:13:21 AM
wonkers:
My comment obviously went to student misconduct, not suspected parental abuse
Maybe I wasn't clear. When a teacher suspects a child is being abused, he/she must report it to the authorities. Why should that teacher not report to the authorities when one student beats up another?
Are you suggesting that every time two kids get into a fight on the playground or bring a pocket knife to school that the school should call the police?
Assault is a criminal offense - why shouldn't the police be called? For the past decade, schools have been "taking care of" problems such as knives and other weapons being brought to school in-house, and now the problem is out of hand. What's changed to make you believe that they can now take care of the problem?
No student has been expelled for merely tripping someone in the hall, and none will unless someone is hurt badly or there is a demonstrated pattern of intimidation, in which cases I wholeheartedly agree with the policy. As for the rest of your scenarios, yes - if they happen on school property.
487. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 12:19:57 AM
Well, I'm not interested in promoting a full-employment scheme for cops and juvenile justice hacks who don't have enough to do, and who are filling our jails which are in turn manufacturing hardened criminals.
488. joezan - 1/18/2000 12:23:06 AM
wonk:
I hate to tell you this, but the parents and schools are doing a fine job of producing hardened criminals all by themselves. We just clean up the mess.
Have a nice night.
489. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 12:24:54 AM
The worst thing that could happen to a kid would be to fall into your clutches. It would be all downhill from there.
490. joezan - 1/18/2000 12:58:48 AM
Now was that nice?
You simply would not believe all the nice mail I get from the kids who've graduated.
491. CalGal - 1/18/2000 1:22:25 AM
No student has been expelled for merely tripping someone in the hall,....
It comes fairly close to that at times in the suburbs. Zero tolerance has done much to create an environment where kids are encouraged to rat out others, and the zeal to prevent another Columbine occasionally snags kids who don't fit the nice neat little mold that makes teachers happy.
I agree that the cops should be called in cases where an assault has occurred and I don't know enough about the Decatur incident to have an opinion. But I've read more than one article about the sort of problems I mention, and I've had personal experience with the zealots as well. Public schools are now harder on misfits and individualists than they were before. This is what we learned from Columbine?
492. joezan - 1/18/2000 1:44:20 AM
Cal:
It comes fairly close...
Cites, please.
Let's make sure we're on the same page here. Expulsion is when the kid is tossed out of school, usually till the next school year - sometimes longer, or until he/she complies with some agreed-upon conditions. Suspension is when they are sent home for up to a few days.
When I was in school many years ago, kids were suspended all the time for things you bleeding hearts want now to label "minor" infractions - intimidation, extorting lunch money, tripping kids in the halls. Zero Tolerance has not changed the consequences for those types of infractions much, but we are long past the time where it is constructive to let off with a warning kids who assault others, or phone in bomb threats. Those are serious crimes, and the fact that you, and much of society, are numb to violence does not make it any less frightening, damaging, and ultimately destructive to lots of kids who simply want to go to school and learn something.
493. CalGal - 1/18/2000 1:52:48 AM
but we are long past the time where it is constructive to let off with a warning kids who assault others, or phone in bomb threats
Did you read right past the part where I said that I supported calling the cops in any case like that? Pay attention, particularly if you're going to fling around terms like "bleeding heart". Frankly, I don't think it was ever constructive to let kids off with a warning if they broke the law.
Suspension is when they are sent home for up to a few days.
Right. And in many suburban schools, a few suspensions lead to expulsion--or at least, the kid gets "tagged" as a serious problem. All that can happen for sins far less serious than tripping another kid in the hallway. Consider, too, that kids can now be suspended merely on the word of another kid.
I suggest you read my post again; you've pretty much invented an argument and attributed it to me.
494. joezan - 1/18/2000 2:10:38 AM
Cal:
Cites, please. Show me some statistics which point to this epedemic of innocent kids being expelled.
495. joezan - 1/18/2000 2:18:19 AM
And you know what? Screw individuality. Shut-up, put your uniform on, get on the bus, go to school and learn. We don't have time to indulge your fashion statements, your rilllly kewl musical tastes, and your inane little teenage soap operas. Save that shit for when you get home. Raise your hand to speak, don't chew gum, and no swirlies.
Got it?
496. CalGal - 1/18/2000 2:24:28 AM
Joe,
I didn't claim it was an epidemic. I said it was happening. I've seen it from personal experience, but I would not bother mentioning it if that were all. However, there have been a number of articles about the downside of zero tolerance and the numbers. I'll see if I can dig any of them up.
Screw individuality.
Right. Let's have everyone conform, even if the kids who don't want to aren't dangerous. They confuse the terminally simple-minded.
497. joezan - 1/18/2000 2:29:26 AM
Cal:
For every article you come up with on the downside of ZT, I will produce a thousand on the downside of namby-pamby permissiveness and outright indulgence.
498. CalGal - 1/18/2000 2:41:28 AM
Joe,
Ah. Apparently, you're only capable of envisioning two possible approaches. I realize that your limitations are representative of the world at large, and I appreciate the insight into the national psyche.
But work with me here. Believe it or not, it is possible to reject namby-pambyism and indulgence while still rejecting an approach that encourages overreaction and kids ratting each other out. Can you imagine? How'd that happen?
"Zero tolerance" is just an implementation to a solution. Hell, I'm not sure most people can adequately describe the problem that they're trying to solve. It's just overreaction--testimony to the American fetish with quick fixes.
499. arkymalarky - 1/18/2000 4:35:02 AM
Interesting conversation. Since I've got insomnia I'll sort of put in my groggy two cents.
FWIW, I never see much good reason to paint yourself into a corner, and it's what a lot of schools are doing for fear that something will happen that they will later be held accountable for; but things had been much too far the other way in a lot of schools to the point that teachers were unable to conduct classes for the lack of discipline. That's pretty much the fault of the schools (teachers and admin), though, not any dramatic change in the kids, imho. I don't care what the policy is (within reason, of course), it succeeds or fails based on practicality and consistency, and that's where a lot of schools seem to be falling down.
I've said this before and it's belaboring the obvious I guess, but no school is exempt from tragedies like what happened at Jonesboro and Columbine. We're not exempt from terrorism, meteors, or other disasters, either. Except hurricanes. I think where I live we're safe from those. I think we look too much at extremes and not enough at trends when determining policy. The extremes may or may not suggest that there are problems within the system that need correcting--not just discipline, but logistics and security problems and things like that. What extremes should result in--again imho--is a serious look at trends and general problems which may have contributed to or worsened the situation. Instead, many schools knee-jerk react because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't and a tragedy occurs.
500. CalGal - 1/18/2000 12:13:42 PM
Arky,
Exactly. Have insomnia more often. Sorry I missed you!
501. joezan - 1/18/2000 6:05:34 PM
arky:
Instead, many schools knee-jerk react because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't and a tragedy occurs.
Schools (at least the ones I deal with) do not invoke ZT as a knee-jerk reaction. They do it after experiencing years of student violence, students drug dealing on-campus, students leaving the building and grounds to take drugs or alcohol, etc., and everything else has failed.
Why have all other efforts failed? Because they tried to treat each case "individually", and got themselves tied-up in knots for their efforts.
The kid who got busted selling a bag of weed on school property 5 years ago? Well, he had a serious drug problem, and he was in drug counseling at the time. All his reports said he was progressing in his treatment. He was only selling the pot to support his crack habit. So the case is turned over to the school administration, which decides that this kid really deserves a break. Great. Maybe he'll even recover, or at least stop dealing on school property. But then, everyone who gets busted for drugs on-campus has some mitigating situation. Can't deny them a second chance, can we? Same with fighting.
There are very few new rules in schools these days. I repeat - there are very few new rules in schools these days. The only thing that has changed are the consequences. Parents know what the rules are. And if they fail to impress strongly enough on their kids the need to obey rules, tough. Others should not be made to put up with the incorrigibility and disruption of the few.
502. joezan - 1/18/2000 6:07:27 PM
...disruptiveness of the few.
503. CalGal - 1/18/2000 6:10:50 PM
Joe,
I'll know you actually understand my point if you start using relevant examples.
504. joezan - 1/18/2000 6:18:50 PM
Cal:
If you'll look at the top of my post, you'll see I was speaking to arky, and to her assertion that ZT is a knee-jerk reaction.
505. joezan - 1/18/2000 6:35:18 PM
...and I don't know why your arguments so often include claims that your posts are not understood. They're not hard to understand. Excuse me if there's some point you think I failed to address, but sometimes your points are just too trivial or too far from the point to warrant further discussion.
506. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 6:35:30 PM
ZT is a simplistic, knee jerk reaction on the part of people who are highly politically motivated or very stupid or both.
507. joezan - 1/18/2000 6:37:26 PM
And statements like the above, with nothing to support them, are as substantial as air-puffed popcorn.
508. CalGal - 1/18/2000 6:53:03 PM
I never think my posts are hard to understand. But they clearly are, or so many people wouldn't respond to them as every other word was in Sanskrit and they just guessed at its meaning.
I understood you were talking to Arky, however, I think she was saying the same thing I was. (Pardon me, Arky, if I got that wrong.) But it seems as if you didn't understand her, either.
Are you perhaps missing the many times I said that I wasn't discussing illegal acts?
509. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 7:08:19 PM
Joe, "nothing to support them." Did you read my earlier posts? Apparently not. Zero tolerance would be fine if it didn't mean automatic expulsion or suspension. It would be okay if it didn't take the authority to deal with everyday school problems away from the principals and teachers. It would be okay if the schools were free to apply it with some common sense. I believe I said very clearly above that I believe that violence (at whatever level from pushing to assault with guns) drugs, absenteeism, disruption in class, etc. SHOULD NEVER BE IGNORED. But at the same time the punishment should fit the crime and should be the minimum required in the judgment of the teacher and principal necessary and appropriate in view of all circumstances including the nature of the transgression and the particular student's previous behavior. ZT laws require the schools to go immediately to capital punishment (expulsion, suspension, law enforcement)without considering these commonsense factors.
510. arkymalarky - 1/18/2000 7:14:28 PM
We don't have a lot of discipline problems where I work because we quite frankly don't put up with it. I haven't sent a kid out for disrespect or anything I would consider a significant problem in years. Is that ZT? I don't think so.
To give an example of what I mean by painting yourself in a corner, I'll just retell a story a wonderful educator told about a time way back when he was principal and the school used corporal punishment (this wasn't my school, but a lot of schools in states like AR still use it, including ours). A young elementary teacher had had a problem with controlling her class and he came in and told them that the next student who got in trouble would be paddled. Well, you guessed it, a kid who had never been in trouble before was the very next to get in trouble, and there the principal was, painted into a corner by his pronouncement.
I just don't think it's wise to implement a policy that ties the hands of the people charged with enforcing it. There needs to be some room to maneuver for circumstances. Our school expelled a student for making a threat of violence because they felt they had no choice, though circumstances and the kid in question, who spoke out in anger, leave little doubt that he would not harm anyone. The admin, rightly I think, acted on the side of caution. If administrators don't have enough sense to do that without an ironclad policy driving them, then they shouldn't be administrators, imho. That doesn't mean that I think unacceptable behavior should be tolerated; quite the contrary, and administrators and teachers have gotten by too long without being accountable for the tone of their schools and classrooms.
511. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 7:17:14 PM
By the way for 34 years I was involved to a greater or lesser extent with the process of industrial discipline in auto plants and, for a time in developing training materials for supervisors and managers in maintaining discipline. There were very few offences for which a ZT approach was applied--theft, assault with a deadly weapon, sale of drugs. Fighting got a two-day suspension for both participants (compared to two years by the Decatur school board). The most successful supervisors and managers were (and are) those who use formal discipline sparingly and only after extensive efforts to get the employee to correct the problem through informal discussions. We found that formal discipline (written reprimands and disciplinary suspensions) when used too frequently were demotivators and counter-productive. The worst possible approach to correcting absenteeism and other behavior problems was a punitive, law enforcement approach analogous to the ZT approach currently being misapplied in schools across the land.
512. ilyavinarsky - 1/18/2000 7:17:28 PM
This is a side issue to education, but I just read something interesting:
How American publishers bowdlerize Swedish children's books
513. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 7:20:01 PM
Arky is one hundred percent correct. Why not apply for a job as an auto plant manager? You would make a good one as I am sure you are a good teacher.
514. arkymalarky - 1/18/2000 7:20:40 PM
OK, I see there was some discussion while I was laboriously creating the above masterpiece. Did that clear up my statements?
Let me say also, that ZT can provide a lazy way out for administrators who stamp a situation as "our policy" and move on to their trivial pursuit.
515. arkymalarky - 1/18/2000 7:22:23 PM
Thanks, Wonk.
516. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 7:31:50 PM
iliavinarsky, interesting commentary on national cultures. Maybe the American publishers should talk to our DRUG CZAR. He might pay them to put in a few anti drug messages and even to restore the drunk father on the couch! Sadly, the publishers here doctor the material in accordance with what they can get past the fundamentalist anthropoid rabble school boards in many parts of the country.
517. phillipdavid - 1/18/2000 7:33:30 PM
Does anybody know about the state of public education in Arizona? Funding, political trends re education, stuff like that. I am considering a move, thinking about warm weather and sunshine.
518. phillipdavid - 1/18/2000 7:47:06 PM
joe,
"Parents know what the rules are. And if they fail to impress strongly enough on their kids the need to obey rules, tough. Others should not be made to put up with the incorrigibility and disruption of the few."
Since many kids do not have functioning parents, the schools often have to teach the kids how to obey the rules. ZT policies, I believe, can short-change that learning process.
But if a kid is truly incorrigible, then he or she should be removed from the school. The philosophy at my school has been that very few kids are truly incorrigible, so troublesome kids get a long learning curve. The bottom line is to help kids. Quickly kicking them out of school is not often the best way to do that.
Our school has an evening study program. Runs from 4 P.M. to 8 P.M. Any kid who is a constant troublemaker, or who cannot function productively in the classrooms after long chances, is assigned to the evening study program. Really serious dangers, like a kid who brings a weapon or is dangerously violent, gets an expulsion hearing. But dopers, slackers, general goof-offs are given whatever kind of help and opportunities we think will help. And we know at my school that most often those type of kids don't have functional parents, so we are the only ones to help them. And we try to do so.
519. ilyavinarsky - 1/18/2000 7:51:01 PM
Interesting article about school history textbooks
520. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 7:57:04 PM
Not really but I have a brother and a sister who live in the Tucson area who have had kids in the public schools there. My impression from visits to Tucson and casual conversations is that the Tucson schools aren't barn burners. They have some of the same problems that big city schools in the east have--dealing with a high percentage of fairly poor minority students (first generation Mexican immigrants in this case), drugs, etc. In the Benson district the majority or at least a high percentage of the students come from Mormon families and tend not to be especially user friendly to non-Morman kids. At least that's what my brother and his wife told me. They moved to Tucson in order to get their two kids away from the Mormons. Not sure that was a good move because one developed a drug problem and the other had problems with alcohol. Probably would have been less likely in the Mormon controlled school. Tucson is a nice, laid back town, preferable, in my opinion, to Phoenix. Flagstaff might be a good bet. It's much smaller than Phoenix and Tucson and is a university town which has a lot of advantages. Doesn't Jexter live in Arizona? Or am I thinking of Trouserpilot from Fray days?
521. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 8:00:19 PM
PD, Great advice for Joe! Great program!
522. phillipdavid - 1/18/2000 8:16:07 PM
wonkers2,
I think Jexter is in the Bay Area, and Tp is in Arizona. Maybe I'll try and get some info from him too.
Mormons have many fine qualities, imo, but working in a Mormon controlled school sounds scary to me.
523. CalGal - 1/18/2000 8:19:22 PM
Phillip,
Arizona for schools? It ain't an old folks haven fer nothin'.
Elliot and tP are the only two I can think of who were from that area.
524. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 8:20:09 PM
If you get to the Tucson area I would be happy to put you in touch with my sister who is a social worker at the Univ of Arizona Medical Center and my brother who is a rural real estate broker in the Benson area. His former wife teaches at the University of Northern Arizona in Flagstaff. Flagstaff might well be my first choice as a place to live in Arizona. Except they do get some cold weather and snow in the winter.
525. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 8:22:00 PM
Cal has a good point. Millage increases probably don't go over big in AZ.
526. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 8:24:43 PM
PD, BTW, my other sibling teaches English in Connecticut and is an admirer of yours, as I am. He used to post occasionally to the FRAY as Beyond. I believe that was his handle.
527. phillipdavid - 1/18/2000 8:45:52 PM
I remember Beyond well. Tell him hi for me, wonkers.
I have an initial, hazy idea forming to go down there this spring vacation. My new girlfriend curently has the hots for someplace called Prescott -- she told me she saw some lovely pictures that touched somethng within her (and the dreary Oregon winter is getting to her, so sunshine and warmth are very appealing right now) -- so we may take a road trip/vacation this spring to check it out.
She is a counselor and has already emailed somebody down there asking about jobs in the schools. So if we go, I may ask you about your family connections. Thanks for the offer; I appreciate it.
Cal,
An "old-folks haven" doesn't presage well. I need to research the budget situation -- if it's really bad re school funding, then I wouldn't even consider a move there, unless I was feeling somewhat reckless.
528. arkymalarky - 1/18/2000 8:46:03 PM
Thanks for the NYRofB site, Ilyavinarsky. I've copied it to read and keep. I use the Garraty book, and it's enlightening as to why he didn't agree to do another edition with the publishers. The choices of social studies textbooks I saw last time we adopted were from uninspiring to pitiful. I didn't find one I liked, and reordered the latest available edition of the Garraty book.
Wonkers,
I remember Beyond. I wish he'd start posting again.
529. arkymalarky - 1/18/2000 8:51:30 PM
Hey PD. I should have mentioned that you use the Garraty book too.
I've heard the same things wrt AZ schools, but coming from AR I'm sure it would still be a step up in the funding dept.
530. phillipdavid - 1/18/2000 9:00:49 PM
Arky,
Just quickly scanned through the article ilyavinarsky posted. Very interesting.
One thing in particular struck me: the value of good prose. Somebody had various people rewrite sections of text and it was discovered that children learned (or retained, I forget) about 40% more when they read the prose written by professional journalists. Apparently, the strong narrative voice they used, in distinction to the type of dull prose usually seen, enhanced the reading expereince of the kids -- about 40% worth of enhancement.
531. joezan - 1/18/2000 10:00:42 PM
In schools such as arky's, there is no need to implement ZT, and it shouldn't ever be, in such cases. Of the 20 or so public MS's, JHS's and HS's my court works with, only 7 do. All have done so extremely reluctantly. Believe me - ZT is not a popular concept in my profession. It means much, much more work, in most cases.
But to my personal knowledge, and in talking with court and school employees from around the country (this has been a very hot topic at national conferences for the past couple of years), I have not met a single person who has said that the schools they work in or with had simply jumped on the ZT bandwagon. ZT is not something which is undertaken proactively. It does not even make it to the school board for consideration in districts like arky's - or mine, for that matter. I can't speak for arky, but I know that the reason we don't need it in my district is that our schools have always fostered a culture of structure and, heaven forbid, discipline. So the schools never got out of control.
But where they have, order has got to be re-gained. ZT is not regarded as a permanent condition at any school I know of. It is an interim measure until order is returned, undertaken by schools which have tried everything else.
532. wonkers2 - 1/18/2000 10:09:30 PM
joezan, I hesitate to dispute the matter with you, because I know you are closer to the issue than I am. However, my understanding is that the Michigan legislature passed a zero tolerance statute last year or within the last year that REQUIRES schools to suspend (or expel?)students involved in school violence, defined very broadly (inclusively). I heard a report on WUOM about it a couple of days ago to the effect that the principles and teachers are complaining that the statute is forcing them to expel students AGAINST THEIR BETTER JUDGMENT, and that the number of expulsions (suspensions) has increased greatly since the bill was passed. I believe there were recent reports on the matter in the Detroit Free Press also. Although I may be confusing the school matter with the debate on the Abraham case and the law allowing children to be tried and sentenced as adults. If I had anticipated this discussion I would have listened more carefully to the radio item and clipped the newspaper articles. If you can clear up the facts on the Mich ZT statute, please do so.
533. joezan - 1/18/2000 10:13:03 PM
I have heard it argued that ZT is very similar to the death penalty - it does nothing to discourage kids from its targeted behaviors. I would argue that it does, to some extent. However, if someone were to show me proof positive that it in fact doesn't, neither I, nor any of ZT's strongest proponents would be any the less convinced of its effectiveness.
If you have a gang of 12 thugs running things at a high school of 1200 students, and they all get tossed for their gang activities on school property, the benefits to the other 1188 students far outweigh the "harm" done to the thugs, especially when one considers the likelihood of them ever graduating anyway.
Likewise, if one of those 12 thugs happens to be a kid who just joined the gang a day earlier, and happened to be caught in his first-ever act of tagging, well, that's one kid who learned earlier than most that some mistakes have consequences that last a long time.
534. joezan - 1/18/2000 10:56:05 PM
wonk:
That legislation is totally without teeth. How it is administered is basically left up to the schools. I believe something like 200 students, statewide, have been expelled under the ZT statute who would not necessarily have been expelled prior, and many of them have been reinstated following hearings.
For instance, of all kids on the caseloads of our 9 probation officers, only 3 kids have been expelled for fighting, and one for phoning in numerous bombthreats. IMO, at least 2 of these boys would've been expelled anyway. At any given time, we have probably two or three kids locked up for the length of their suspension, usually 3 - 5 days, for fighting. These are kids who are already on probation, and they must complete all school work assigned while they are locked up. For most, this is more school work than they have completed in their entire school careers.
535. joezan - 1/18/2000 11:00:54 PM
And I should make a distinction here that the schools I mentioned that have adopted ZT policies are those that have gone beyond the state statute, and have adopted ZT policies aimed mostly at gang activity.
536. joezan - 1/18/2000 11:02:05 PM
...and, that these policies existed before the legislation was passed.
537. wonkers2 - 1/19/2000 6:46:29 PM
joezan, What do you think about the sex and violence movies they are showing the kiddies at Maxey? For example "Basic Instinct" "9 1/2," "Flatliners" "Blade Runner" "Lord of the Flies" "Fatal Beauty" "Breathless" etc. According to one of the critics, "Basic Instinct" "begins with shots of the fully nude character played by actress Sharon Stone and then stabbing her victim with an ice pick." I personally wouldn't object to a little bare skin for the laddies, but ice picks? Tut, tut!(This morning's Free Press).
Is this what happens to the kids who come under your care?
538. joezan - 1/19/2000 11:33:32 PM
wonk:
Maxey is a state training school - not quite prison for kids, but close. They get the worst of those who have not been waived to the adult system - kids who have been through detention centers like mine many times, plus residential treatment, etc., but whose behaviors have escalated regardless of all efforts to reform them. Finally, the state takes custody and they become Act 150 wards of the state. Is this an excuse for letting them watch such crap? No. I would never allow it, and I would certainly not excuse it. I haven't seen the article, but I would bet my bottom dollar the staff are claiming they use such movies as a behavior control tool, which is a bunch of crap, and which is the most popular excuse for laziness in my field - "they get into less trouble when they're watching something they like on TV". What they need to do is get off their dead asses and develop a structured program, in which the staff take a direct, participatory role, and which allows as little free time as possible, such as that at my facility, which is, I add humbly, the undisputed best facility in the state - and quite possibly in the entire country.
539. joezan - 1/19/2000 11:34:07 PM
At my facility, the kids watch about 15 minutes of TV before school in the a.m., and they get to watch CNN for 1/2 hour at night. On weekends, they get an hour of TV each evening, with these guidelines (which I personally instituted some years ago): No shows with a negative, sexual or violent theme; No talk shows; No music channels. So, basically, they can watch educational TV and news for a couple of hours a week. Also, on Saturday and Sunday nights, they get to watch G-Rated movies. We used to allow PG's, but it seemed we'd always end up getting a kid who was under 13, which meant that everyone in that kid's group of 8 kids would go without a movie that evening, unless there was something appropriate on TV during that time slot, which usually meant the Disney Channel.
So, no. No ice picks.
540. arkymalarky - 1/20/2000 6:50:54 PM
In all the time I've known you, Joe, I don't think I've ever said how much I admire the work you do.
541. phillipdavid - 1/20/2000 7:08:59 PM
I read and saw Lord of the Flies when I was in school twenty-five or so years ago. I don't remember it well, but my impression is that it is considered as something of a classic with some sort of redeeming qualities.
542. wonkers2 - 1/20/2000 7:18:04 PM
Blind justice in the ghettos of Pontiac and Greenwich
Eleven-year-old Nathaniel Abraham was charged and convicted as an adult of second degree murder for the shooting death of another young black man in Pontiac, Michigan.
Thirty-nine-year-old Michael Skakel is charged as a child with murder for bludgeoning to death with a golf club a girl who lived next door to his parents' mansion in Greenwich Connecticut 25 years ago when he was 15. [According to today's times prosecutors may yet move to have the young scion tried as an adult, a possiblity not available when the crime was committed.]
Skakel posted $500,000 bond and left the station smiling, released on his own recognizance.
543. wonkers2 - 1/20/2000 7:22:50 PM
Joezan, That's not what the school boards and principals are saying. If my memory is correct the 200 figure you mentioned was actually 250 which was more than double in the previous year (before the ZT statute took effect).
Next thing the crime politicoes will be proposing for Michigan is a SUPERMAXX prison for the really bad guys. And once they build it I have no doubt they will find the bodies to keep it full.
544. joezan - 1/20/2000 9:57:54 PM
arky:
Thank you.
wonk:
Ok, 250.
250 kids were expelled for assault, mayhem, serious threats, and other criminal activities. There are a few thousand schools in the state, wonk.
Do the math.
545. wonkers2 - 1/21/2000 9:36:21 AM
joezan, 125 more were expelled due to the mindless ZT statute. That is very significant for them. I'll concede that expulsion was appropriate in some of the cases. All I know is that, according to a radio program I heard last week, some educators are up in arms about the matter. Apparently they feel they were forced by the statute to expell students against their better judgment. It would be interesting for somebody to do a study and publish the facts of each case where students were expelled. Some totally ridiculous ones have been picked up by the newspapers. Eg the third grader expelled for bringing an heirloom watch with a tiny penknife attached to show and tell because the penknife was considered a weapon.
546. joezan - 1/22/2000 12:10:44 AM
wonk:
No doubt there will be more kids expelled who only by the narrowest, pin-headed definition have violated the statute. But surely you can understand the logic of holding the line?
The kid who brought grampa's pocket knife was reinstated within a week following a hearing. As was another kid, whose mother packed a steak knife in her lunch pail so she could cut her apple. As were many other kids, who were expelled even for fighting, when they could prove just cause, or when it is a first offense. The logic behind such drastic measures is this:
If the minor violations are mitigated, where do you draw the line? A steak knife brought to cut an apple is only a tiny bit worse than a pocket knife brought for show-n-tell; a BB-gun brought as a trade is a little worse than that, so why isn't that mitigated too? And after that's mitigated, you've gotta cut the kid a break who brings a jackknife because a bully threatened him, etc, etc. Pretty soon, you're back to exactly where you were before - making excuses for every behavior, no matter how dangerous.
So, make every violator show that his case is special. The ones who had no malicious intent, and therefore deserve to be back in school, will have, and have had, little trouble proving it.
547. wonkers2 - 1/22/2000 8:42:21 AM
They shouldn't have to prove anything. The school is capable of making the correct decision in the first place in the absence of a simplistic, mindless ZT law passed by a bunch of political bozos with no background or expertise on the issue and no inclination to seek out advice from people who could help them.
548. joezan - 1/22/2000 11:11:39 AM
wonk:
Yes, they should have to prove it. You have the issues confused - kids were prohibited from bringing knives to school long before the ZT statutes were enacted.
The school is capable of making the correct decision in the first place in the absence of a simplistic, mindless ZT law passed by a bunch of political bozos with no background or expertise on the issue and no inclination to seek out advice from people who could help them.
You propose looking at each case individually as if it's a novel idea. No - as a matter of fact, you go even further. You would have the schools appoint a committee of experts to decide the punishments of every kid. Don't you understand that that is exactly what has allowed the problem of school violence to get to the point where such drastic measures are needed?
549. joezan - 1/22/2000 11:43:37 AM
And isn't it a bit specious to bring up these few extreme cases to support your argument, when you know darn well that for every one of those cases there are 100 instances wherein a kid who has been given many breaks and has been allowed to continue attending school ends up subsequently seriously hurting or killing someone?
When you - or anyone - go around labeling ZT a knee-jerk reaction, following more than a decade of escalating school violence, during which everything else - counseling, in-home tutoring, anger-management classes, etc. has been proven ineffective, I really have to laugh. How long are we expected to put up with something so detrimental to the learning environment - how many different remedies have to be tried, before ZT is not a "knee-jerk" reaction? Don't bother - I know your answer.
And maybe this hasn't occurred to you, but your condemnation of a new remedy after such a short time, based on the few feeble examples you've used, defines "Knee-jerk reaction" just about perfectly.
550. wonkers2 - 1/22/2000 3:54:35 PM
joezan, you misunderstood. My suggestion was that the state legislators should have consulted some experts before rushing off to pass a ZT law. No matter what the rule or law, a third grader shouldn't be suspended for bringing in a small antique penknife attached to a watch to show and tell. And a teenage girl shouldn't be suspended for bringing a bottle of Adville to school. Judgment should be applied and the situations dealt with without any formal discipline, let alone suspension or expulsion.
551. joezan - 1/22/2000 4:07:23 PM
wonk:
The experts have been consulted. Where do you think the ideas of teen court, student arbitration, anger management counseling, etc, etc, etc, have come from? The experts have weighed in with their estemmed positions, and they've all failed miserably.
Sometimes the bull has got to be grabbed by the horns.
552. wonkers2 - 1/22/2000 4:19:56 PM
Well, we disagree. BTW I agree with Arky; sounds like you're doing a great job. You should be in charge of Maxey. According to this morning's Free Press, no more R-rated movies for the boys.
553. joezan - 1/22/2000 4:37:29 PM
wonk:
Thanks. It's been fun disagreeing with you. I do feel that we both have only the best interests of students at heart.
BTW, running Maxey is quite a big job, and quite a different job than running my facility. I don't know the director personally, but I do know that he is a very vocal advocate for children - including delinquent children. It sounds like his line and middle management staff do not have a good grip on things. My facility is blessed with a staff who are truly dedicated, and they deserve more credit than I do for our success.
554. bloodnfire - 1/23/2000 9:27:07 AM
fwiw Our Administration at the Residential School for Delinquent Boys where I work recently ordered a 'No R-Rated Movies' rule too.
555. wonkers2 - 1/23/2000 12:44:01 PM
They should split the ratings into RV (violence), RS (sex) and RVS (violence and sex). The RVS ones (eg Basic Instinct) should definitely not be permitted. RS ones should be okay. And RV should be okay in quality movies where violence is incidental and necessary to the plot.
556. ycmeehan - 1/27/2000 7:16:16 AM
What do do you think about the following?
Pay for performance:
Thompson challenged legislators, the Department of Public Instruction and the largest teachers union, the Wisconsin Education Association Council, to agree on an award-for-achievement program, which would make everyone in a public school eligible for bonuses of up to $3,000 if students improve in measurable ways.
Aide Kevin Keane said Thompson suggested only the "framework" of the plan Wednesday.
"Everything still has to be worked out," including when pilot programs would start, how much those programs will cost, and whether employees would get partial bonuses if the school improved only slightly, Keane added.
Still, Thompson said the program should work this way: Schools would test 95% of their students, scores would have to improve for all students, and schools would have to show year-to-year gains in areas such as "achievement tests, attendance and dropout rates."
Thompson also said, "We would maintain local control by making participation voluntary to start."
Thompson's plan received a cool response from Democratic lawmakers.
Senate Education Committee Chairman Richard Grobschmidt (D-South Milwaukee) said he opposed the heavy dependence on test scores to gauge teacher performance.
"I am concerned there is a heavy reliance on testing," he said. "The Legislature has gone on record as saying testing is one measure of a student's performance. Certainly, testing should not be the only measure of a teacher's performance."
Senate Majority Leader Chuck Chvala (D-Madison) also questioned Thompson's plan, agreeing that the standards by which teachers are judged should be expanded.
"We share the objective of improving student achievement and paying teachers more, but test scores may not be the most effective way to get that done," Chvala said.
557. ycmeehan - 1/27/2000 7:18:07 AM
The above post is from Governor Thompson's state address yesterday.
558. arkymalarky - 1/27/2000 6:15:57 PM
Hi Ycmeehan!
I've been thinking about your post off and on through the day and I think that I agree to an extent with what WI is doing, though I don't know whether teachers within the tougher districts might agree. I mean I agree as long as they are measuring improvement within their own school systems.
I feel very responsible for whether my students can handle post-high school course work in English and history, as I know all the teachers in the Mote do, as well as good teachers everywhere, and I think I should be held responsible in a general sense. No teacher succeeds with every student, and we all have plenty of kids we can look back on, knowing we could have and/or should have done more. But overall, I think encouragement to keep growing and improving is a good thing, and monetary incentives may help. We were talking a while back about teacher shortages, which have reached epidemic proportions in some areas, and many districts and states still haven't figured out that if salaries become more competitive and working conditions improve that will change.
I'd really like to know your opinion on it.
559. wonkers2 - 1/27/2000 8:10:39 PM
If they offer a bonus the teachers will teach to whatever measures are used to determine who gets the bonuses, probably to the detriment of the educational process. Some will cheat as was the case in New York City. This type of compensation is okay for door-to-door vacuum cleaner or bible salesmen, but not for teachers. If they adopt the bonus pay it should be based on school performance, and all the teachers in the improved schools should get the bonus. There are other ways than cash to recognize schools that perform well--publicty, non-cash awards to outstanding teachers, etc. Teacher salaries need to be increased, especially in big cities, in order to attract more and better quality teachers. Paying a bonus to individual teachers is based on false theories of motivation and will not turn a poorly trained, underpaid, inept teacher into a good one.
560. arkymalarky - 1/27/2000 8:21:46 PM
"If they adopt the bonus pay it should be based on school performance, and all the teachers in the improved schools should get the bonus."
I agree, I also agree with your last sentence. I don't know why it makes me think of it, but "teacher of the year" awards have always bugged the crap out of me.
561. Al D - 1/27/2000 9:29:20 PM
arky
Have no fear, just vote for Gore. I heard him say after the Iowa vote that he wanted to raise teachers pay to the same level as doctors and lawyers. That should get you somewhere near, at least the $150,000 a year level. Having sold vacuum cleaners door to door and taught for eight years, and listening to how serious you take your responsibilities, I think you're worth it. Of course, perhaps you would rather have a ride through the town, with a banner saying hoiw great you are. After all, we do not want our educators to get crass on us like those awful conservatives.
562. joezan - 1/29/2000 11:56:42 AM
I swear, I actually said this yesterday during a telephone interview with a prospective substitute teacher, for a long-term sub job while one of our teachers is out for a few months for major neck surgery:
(Him): I never considered teaching at juvy - I never met anyone who has. I knew you had a school here, but I always figured you people just hired from the bottom of the barrel. I'd like to have the steady work, but I'm worried how it'll look on my resume'.
(Me): Oh - don't worry about that! Our sub-standards are just as high as those at the public schools.
(Long, long pause)
(Him): Well, that's encouraging.
563. arkymalarky - 1/29/2000 2:03:10 PM
Thanks, Al (D, not Gore). If all conservative Republican tax-me-nots were like you, I know I'd get a fair salary.
kidding! ;-)
When I started teaching almost 20 years ago, my starting salary was $13,400 and was considered very good. Five years later I went to work at a different school for the same salary, which included increments for my years of experience. One thing I will say for Clinton is that he helped start salary increases and the state government has continued to improve them, tho AR still doesn't nearly keep up with most other states.
For the amount of schooling, training, and actual work I do I don't deserve a big salary along the line of doctors and lawyers, imo. I can devote a lot of time to my job and still have way more free time than most professional people. But I do think a good teacher with a masters degree ought to break $50,000 by retirement (not considering changes for inflation, etc). I'm not holding my breath to get something like that from our governor, much less Gore or any other president.
Well, Joe, did you give the guy the job or not?
564. joezan - 1/29/2000 2:37:08 PM
arky:
You would not believe the trouble I'm having! We've known for a month that this lady will be out for surgery, and we can't find anyone! That guy was hedging all along because, like just about everyone else I've interviewed, he is scared. It usually gets better if I can finally convince them to come up to juvy for a tour and to speak with the teachers - all of whom say they will never willingly return to the public schools. But then, all the other contingencies come out - every single decent prospect I've talked to is also in school getting their masters or their certificate, so they can only do a few days a week. We are insisting - for consistency's sake - that they work Mon - Fri. I'm afraid we're going to have to aim lower though - I've only got till Feb. 8 to get someone hired and trained.
Know anyone who needs a job for 3 months or longer?
565. arkymalarky - 1/29/2000 3:18:01 PM
Have you tried any surrounding universities for a list of ed grads who just finished up in Dec? This is a bad time of year to be looking to fill a spot like that, especially in these good economic times.
566. ycmeehan - 1/29/2000 4:47:30 PM
Arky, Wonkers, Al,
I was stimulated by your postings and I am prompted to add a few more thoughts on the subject. I have been following the national debate in regard to the Schools/Teachers' controversy and all its ramifications.
Are these various plans including the Wisconsin plan consistent with the concept of tenure and strong unions? I think not for the following reasons: The ultimate goal of the the teachers is to gain professional standing as represented by status and income. However they desire this without being willing to five up tenure and all that flows from it: Garanteed wage increases, employment stability, union protection, liberal health insurance.
Let's face it-no professionals have this protection and the teacher class as exists today will not give them up. It must be said that, generally speaking, those teachers who don't drop out in the first five years have made the trade off and will oppose the attempts being made to intice them into a new deal so to speak.
However, the forces allied against the present system are driven by ideology and will not be denied unless the teachers as a group learn to know where the enemy is and what he really wants.
(continued)
567. ycmeehan - 1/29/2000 5:06:39 PM
The fact is that a large segment of the public is opposed to public schools. Tribal and religious affiliations are their cup of tea. Their problem is as long as the public get all the the tax money, no trough is available for them to feed at. As a result, in Wisconsin, for instance, new teachers unable to secure a public school position take a private or a religious school position only until they can secure a real position-that is, with pay, retirement, protection, and tenure.
If we look at the battle lines from the enemy's perpective, school choice and vouchers are the way to the real breakthrough. Then the follow-up by weakening credentials: Already in a number of states, the legislatives permit the hiring of a college graduate if he/she will begin to take education courses. The shortage of teachers is the catalyst and incentive to lower qualifications.
The battle has now being joined and what will be its outcome? I believe that the looming national elections will be decisive and probably will tip the scales.
568. ycmeehan - 1/29/2000 5:16:23 PM
Their problem is as long as the public get all the the tax money, no trough is available for them to feed at.
Correcting the above sentence in post# 567: Their problem is as long as the public schools get all the tax money, no trough is available for them to feed at.
569. joezan - 1/29/2000 5:33:27 PM
arky:
We have a great relationship with at least 6 local colleges and 3 universities - from which we recruit most of our regular staff out of the social work and criminal justice programs. In fact, I teach one one-day class per semester for the local university's CJ program - gratis. In return, we get to shamelessly promote our place and head hunt for the picks of the litter.
But ed programs? As you know, there's a serious shortage of teachers. We've been trying to set up student-teaching programs, but why should they teach in juvy when they get their pick of "real" schools?
To make matters worse, the schools guard their sub lists like the Coca Cola recipe. Believe it or not, I had my sister, who works at the HS library, going around surreptitiously getting phone numbers from the subs at her school for the past couple of days, and have been working all day today tracking them down.
Same story - none of them are available all five days a week.
570. ycmeehan - 1/29/2000 5:59:46 PM
Arky,
Don't misunderstand me. As long as the district is not paying me what I feel I am worth, of course I want retirement benefits, health protection, and tenure and as much free time my contract affords.
I am really discussing here what is happening now and what is likely to happen in the future, not what should happen.
I would like to emphasize the hybrid nature of the environment teachers fuction in. In one sense, they are civil servants, in another sense they are professionals but always under the management of non-professionals meaning a school board which may be dominated by incompetents at the best or outright enemies at the worst. This is a situation that no other professionals endure.
Imagine, if you will, a private corporation whose management, for an ideological point of view, is determined to destroy the institution it manages. That is the dilemna of the school problems.
In Wisconsin, this problem has been addressed to the last few years. Low unemployment, (3% of late) new, better educated people moving into rural areas have changed for the better the composition of board members. But there are much progresses to be made elsewhere in that regard.
571. arkymalarky - 1/29/2000 6:44:27 PM
Ycmeehan,
I think you describe the situation very well, and there's no easy solution. I can't help but be irritated at teachers unions and their lack of leadership or direction regarding the current situation. I don't know about elsewhere, but the teachers union in AR is often its own worst enemy, imo, still emphasizing issues they already won years ago, and not making any effort to work toward the things that would improve teaching as a job the most in the current environment.
I keep waiting for state legislatures and local districts to see the reality that as long as a college education in technical and business and other high-demand fields can give people a lot more money and better opportunities for advancement with fewer headaches and the same time and money spent on the degree, the crisis a lot of areas are experiencing will only get worse.
Joe,
I'm not surprised at your story at all. The sub situation is horrendous here, to the point that teachers are sometimes asked to fill in for others on their preparation periods, which is really bad, imo. I hope you find someone, but I would hate for our school, with all the advantages of being a "real" district, as y'all say, to have to fill a position right now in certain subject areas.
572. arkymalarky - 1/29/2000 7:40:53 PM
I'm going to copy Eric from the Politics or Current Events thread, I can't remember which, but it so happens The Onion had a couple of really good education pieces that seem to fit recent discussions here.
Local Airhead wants to work with Kids
Nation's Schoolchildren Call for Cuts in Math, Science Funding
573. wonkers2 - 1/30/2000 11:20:50 PM
There's no question that unions exert a conservative influence on the workplace whether it be in schools or factories. That's one of the tradeoffs of collective bargaining--ie a tendency to adopt work rules which tend to make change harder, certain kinds of change at least.
574. ycmeehan - 1/31/2000 5:32:06 PM
Arky, do you have this problem in your state?
575. arkymalarky - 1/31/2000 6:50:10 PM
Not where I am. I don't know about elsewhere in AR, outside Mexican immigrants. We're a pretty insulated area except for our exchange students, some of whom do speak very poor English, but it's not the same, of course.
576. phillipdavid - 1/31/2000 7:45:32 PM
ycmeechan
Message # 566
Oregon's state legislature passed a law doing away with teacher tenure a couple years ago. We are all on two-year contracts now. The union was short-circuted this way; we didn't get anything in return.
577. Cellar Door - 2/1/2000 10:42:36 AM
CONGRATULATIONS: BY READING THIS POST YOU HAVE JUST CONTRACTED HIV
(This message was brought to you by the Dan Savage For God Committee)
578. wonkers2 - 2/1/2000 5:43:51 PM
A further thought on the bonus proposal for teachers/schools who achieve improvements in their students' standard test scores. Here's what may be an imperfect analogy based on my experience in industry where similar schemes abound. Paying such a bonus is analogous to one of the big three auto companies trying to revive itself, increase market share, etc, by offering profit sharing to the employees but not investing in new plant equipment, spending the money to develop fresh designs and engineering innovations, adopting modern statistical quality control techniques, etc. Profit sharing or executive bonuses for meeting certain goals might not be harmful, but they would accomplish little in the absence of more fundamental steps. The same is true for improvements in education--adopting standards and paying teachers extra for meeting them beg the question of solving the problems that caused the low scores and otherwise poor results in the first place--overcrowded schools and classrooms; inadequate teacher training and compensation; top-heavy, over-centralized self-serving administrative bureaucracies; lack of money for books, computers, fixing the roofs; excessively large and impersonal high schools; failure to back teachers who try to maintain academic and disciplinary standards in their classrooms; etc. (I'm not an educator, and I don't pretend to understand all the problems let alone the solutions. However, I'm pretty sure more fundamental and probably more costly reforms are needed than phony quick fixes like national or state-wide standardized tests and teacher bonuses.)
579. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 11:03:27 AM
Sorry for the highjack:
Do any teachers here know of a good textbook or guidelines to help parents teach a child to read? Phonics? What? Help!?
Fang knows the alphabet, and we're working on the sounds that letters make now, but I don't know where to go from here.
580. CalGal - 2/2/2000 11:14:58 AM
How old is Fang? Nearly 2? That might be a little early for teaching reading of phonetics. My nephew knew all the letters of the alphabet before the age of two--it has something to do with a good visual memory.
The flashcards you can get at any bookstore or toystore are good. But if she doesn't seem interested, you might want to go on to other games that challenge her visual memory (or memory in general), since that seems to be what she enjoys.
Also, play with her problem solving abilities. For example, my niece had no interest in learning the letters. But when we played with flashcards, she was the one who figured out that one side had the letters and the other side had the pictures (ball for B, and so on). So when I asked her questions she didn't know (b is for ?), she'd just take the card and look at the other side--"Ball!"
My nephew didn't figure that out for months (even with his twin there doing the same thing). But he could easily remember that b was for ball--although he didn't really understand the phonetic import for another three years or so.
581. Dantheman - 2/2/2000 11:20:48 AM
I agree with CalGal. Fang's the right age for Flashcards and simple games. At 2 1/2, I was the household terror at Concentration, and games like Old Maid would be good as well.
582. theDiva - 2/2/2000 11:23:41 AM
Ad
Not that I'm a teacher or anything, but you know I never pass up an opportunity to meddle.
Gracie taught herself to read, but here's what we did which I believe contributed to her ability to 'crack the code' (that's what they call it when kids teach themselves to read):
*we read to her every single day
*we took brightly colored construction paper, made 4"x2" cut-out letters of the alphabet, and pasted them to her wall. Every evening before bedtime we held her and sang the alphabet song, pointing to each letter in turn.
*we got her a set of plastic letters - they were big, bright, and chewable. Every time she played with them, we'd make a point to say 'do you have an (whatever letter) there? What is that letter?'
*we'd point at words on signs we'd see frequently (like the sign for the laundry room and say 'that says laundry room!' and after a few times, ask her what it said.
IOW, you are on the right track. Just keep doing what you are doing - make it fun, and don't push. Developmentally, she may not be ready for formal instruction....but she is bright and I would not be surprised if she 'cracked the code' by her third birthday.
583. CalGal - 2/2/2000 11:25:46 AM
Spawn and I used to play "Go Fish" with the sweetener packets at restaurants.
"Do you have any that have S-U-G-A-R in blue?"
"Oh, man! How'd you know?"
584. theDiva - 2/2/2000 11:26:49 AM
That's a cute idea....I'll have to remember that one.
585. CalGal - 2/2/2000 11:30:04 AM
On the other hand, I never read aloud to him--or only rarely. It wasn't a night time tradition. We talked a lot, he was very verbal, and he ended up learning how to read because he wanted to play Carmen San Diego on the computer and I wouldn't stand over his shoulder and read everything aloud. Prior to that, he'd never had much interest.
That same year (he was five or six) his reading skills were assessed at several years ahead of his age, so the lack of interest earlier didn't seem to hurt him much.
The important thing seems to be to make sure you give them lots of challenges, lots of ability to learn so that they get the charge of figuring things out on their own.
586. PsychProf - 2/2/2000 11:41:58 AM
587. PsychProf - 2/2/2000 11:43:15 AM
588. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 12:17:12 PM
Gosh, I go away for a bit, and all this good advice!
Fang is 18 months old,and has been doing the alphabet for a couple of months - but only recently has she been able to get all the letters without a miss, out of order.
Dan and CG
Yeah, I think the flashcards are the way to go. That seems really pushy to me, I don't know why, and I don't want to pressure her, but I don't want her to lose interest either...so I'll go pick them up tonight, I think. Are you guys recommending WORD flashcards or pictures with the letters? I don't know about the pics/letters, because she already knows the name of pretty much everything (she's speaking in sentences) and since she knows the alphabet, that seems like it's redundant. IOW, how do I teach her the relationship between B and BALL? Do the word flashcards help with that, in your opinion?
Div
"*we read to her every single day"
Yep, we have since she was born and still do, tho she "reads" to herself a lot now, for 1/2 hour or more at a time.
She already sings the alphabet song (cute? criminy!) and has letter blocks and a wooden letter board. She brings them to us and tells us what letter it is. She also picks up Mumma's or Daddy's books and pours over them, talking to herself and picking out letters.
We should do more of the "what's that say", thanks for the reminder.
PP
I'm checking out those links, thanks. I'm skittish about some of the programs I've seen because they seem so geared at creating a wonder baby, and I'm not trying to do that - just trying to help her and keep her interested.
It's a dilemma, I tell ya.
589. theDiva - 2/2/2000 12:24:48 PM
Ad
If you decide to use the flash cards, just let her play with them for a while. I am not all that crazy about the idea, myself. And, since she is doing many of the things which precede learning to read, you are certainly on the right track already. In terms of relationships between letter and words, you might want to check out the Montessori method....IOW, if you want to teach her A, give her an apple and say 'A...apple', then show her the letter. I may be oversimplifying the method, though.
590. Dantheman - 2/2/2000 12:46:50 PM
Ad,
I am not sure what's out there. I remember my addition/subtraction flashcards way better than any reading cards.
591. theDiva - 2/2/2000 12:48:36 PM
Flashcards are more effective with older children, and if they are used as a memorization tool. Fang! would prolly end up chewing on hers at this stage of the game.
592. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 12:56:24 PM
I'm at a loss.
593. theDiva - 2/2/2000 12:58:19 PM
Don't be. This is supposed to be fun for youse guys, remember? Just play with her, keep on doing what you've been doing....she's great, she's bright, you give her lots of stimulation, you and her dad are intelligent, verbal people. It will be fine.
594. theDiva - 2/2/2000 12:59:14 PM
And I'll bet you a bottle of wine that Fang! will learn how to read all on her own.
595. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 1:01:59 PM
Oh, I'm just having agita (sp?) about it. It IS fun, it's just that she's made these HUGE strides lately, and all my tricks are kind of played out, and I don't know where to go next. Hanging over my head is the fear that I'll just coast along and she won't learn anything new until she's old enough for kindergarten!
Worry, worry.
596. Dantheman - 2/2/2000 1:05:54 PM
Ad,
One thing you can do is point out signs as you walk with her, or as you drive and are stopped at a light. First get her to identify the letters, and eventually get to sounding out words and associating them with the words. She'll probably get pretty soon to the point where she asks "Mommy, what does Y-I-E-L-D mean?"
597. CalGal - 2/2/2000 1:06:58 PM
They make flashcards for toddlers--they're much bigger, cardboard, and stand up well to chewing.
Ad, the thing I'd use flashcards for at that age is this--show her a b and say, "what's a b for?" She'll say, ball! You turn it over and say Yes, a ball! and clap your hands.
Or if she doesn't know, you turn it over and show her what b is for. You can also learn about her a la my niece and nephew--is she a problem solver (learns how to turn the card over) or a memorizer (easily remembers that b is for ball)?
In either case, once she gets good at one card, you can then move onto three cards, with the letter side up. Which one is for ball?
And so on.
I am not a fan of teaching kids how to read at an early age, and I don't see any huge connection between knowing letters and reading--kids put it together when they're ready, whether they knew their letters or not.
I view all of this stuff as just a form of problem-solving and game playing, giving kids a feeling of confidence. It just also happens to be a useful way to get them ready for school--they may as well know their letters and numbers.
When she's three or four, you can move onto counting dots for numbers, but I think she's a bit young for that now. You can start teaching her the numbers just like you do the letters, though.
598. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 1:07:17 PM
Dan
Yeah, that was a good suggestion. I'm going to do more of that.
599. theDiva - 2/2/2000 1:12:10 PM
Ad
She's a sponge. She'll learn plenty before kindergarten. You're doing all the right things...trust your instincts because are obviously quite good. She will let you know if it's too much.
And I am impressed beyond words that you spelled agita correctly.
600. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 1:12:26 PM
She knows the numbers already (well, she misses 6 and 7 sometimes) to ten, and *seems* to be sniffing around the edges at relating them to quantity, but she only reliably counts to 4 for quantity (4 boats! 1, 2, 3, 4! etc).
I read early, and I'm guessing she will, tho I agree it probably doesn't make much difference in the long run. I'm not trying to push it, I just think she'll really enjoy it when she does.
I don't understand the usefulness behind teaching "b is for ball" except as a way to facilitate reading, tho. Is there some other advantage that I'm missing? Except the memory thing, that is, I agree that that's a good way to reenforce that valuable skill.
601. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 1:13:46 PM
Diva
I'm revealing myself to be a big festering bag of insecurity, aren't I?
Sigh.
602. theDiva - 2/2/2000 1:14:56 PM
make the sounds...say, "'b' is for ball....b..ball." I don't know if I can explain it well in writing. It helps her to associate the sounds with the letters.
603. theDiva - 2/2/2000 1:15:40 PM
Ad
Look, when it comes to our children, most of us are. (hug hug) Trust me, it will be okay.
604. theDiva - 2/2/2000 1:18:47 PM
oh, and an afternoon now and again at Auntie Diva's wouldn't hurt, either.....hint, hint.....
605. theDiva - 2/2/2000 1:23:15 PM
oh, and one more thing....if you haven't already, pick up The Mothers Almanac by Marguerite Kelly (the lady who writes that column in the Wednesday Style section) and someone else. It was a Godsend for me when Gracie was little. Packed to the brim with good common sense advice and really cool age-appropriate activities for the kneebiters.
606. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 1:26:16 PM
Oh, thanks! I don't have that and I NEED ADVICE ON ACTIVITIES!
607. CalGal - 2/2/2000 1:26:35 PM
I don't understand the usefulness behind teaching "b is for ball" except as a way to facilitate reading, tho. Is there some other advantage that I'm missing? Except the memory thing, that is, I agree that that's a good way to reenforce that valuable skill.
I think there are several advantages--not least of which, it's a game. And every time she gets a right answer, she's increasing her level of confidence, as well as learning how to learn.
But it also gives you insight into how she learns. If she's a memorizer, you can work more on devloping her problem solving skills. If she's a problem solver, you give her more time on memorization. Check out what type of memorization she's better at--some people remember better what they do, others what they hear, still others what they see. In checking out the way she learns, you're learning how best to help her use the skills she has--whether it's for reading, putting a tape in the VCR and playing it (an important skill for a toddler--in their minds, at least!), baking cookies, figuring out how to do something when you or her dad aren't around to help, and so on.
I don't want to make it sound like this is some sort of regime. It's just an ongoing learning process--keeps kids active, thinking, putting stuff together.
608. theDiva - 2/2/2000 1:31:06 PM
Ad
Gosh, I envy you. This is such a great age, and there are so many cool things you can do with her. Have an adventure every day, even if it's something as mundane as let's help Mommy put the clothes in the dryer!
Cal
Good points. Very true, especially WRT skill and confidence building.
609. Adrianne - 2/2/2000 1:36:26 PM
All very sensible, you people.
610. Dantheman - 2/2/2000 1:38:29 PM
Ad,
I suspect it's because we seem to have generally turned out reasonably literate and are passing along secrets of our learning process (for me) and those of our offspring (Deev and CalGal).
611. theDiva - 2/2/2000 1:40:17 PM
Ad
Anything for you and Fang!, honey.
612. CalGal - 2/2/2000 1:53:57 PM
When Spawn wasn't quite three, he decided that he could put in a video tape all by himself. So he did. And the TV went "FUZZZZZZZ! ROAAAAR! STATIC!!!!"
Freaked him out and he came running, "The TV is mad at me!"
I came in, saw what happened, used the TV remote to switch to channel 3 and lo! there was his video, happily playing.
Spawn saw. Spawn learned. Next time, he put in the video, braved the TV's anger, and kept clicking the remote control until lo! there was his video! He was so proud.
I then showed him how to press 03 on the remote. Within a week, I could say, "Spawn, could you switch the TV to 1-2?" And then within a year he was realizing that 1-2 was "twelve" and so on. He was able to program a VCR by the time he was 6. Yes, the time too.
Of course, the first time we went to a friend's house, I had to explain to him that most people aren't that loose with their electronics, so hands off!
Now, I realize that this might seem terrible that my kid learned so much through operating the demon TV. But from my perspective, it demonstrates problem solving and number recognition. He developed a competence in something that mattered to him, giving him confidence in his ability to deal with his environment.
Besides, I didn't have to worry about taping my soaps.
613. SnowOwl - 2/2/2000 2:13:24 PM
Adrianne
This sounds pathetically simple and you are probably already doing it, but when you read to her move your finger under the words as you read. That way she will come to associate each group of letters with a particular word. A bright child like yours very soon realises that
STOP, for example, is always stop.
We never consciously taught our children anything, yet they were all early readers and had well developed mathematical skills before they started school. This, I think, is because these things were part of our everyday lives and therefore part of our normal interactions with the kids.
614. arkymalarky - 2/2/2000 6:38:03 PM
Great discussion for the ed thread!
I agree with all of Snowowl's 613.
Mose learned to read right before she turned three, though she knew numbers, letters and some words quite a while before. Once she "cracked the code," as Diva says, I took out a 1947 Dick and Jane teachers' edition that my mother-in-law had given me and she read out of it. We never read it together for fun before (Dr. Seuss is so much more fun for shared reading--Run, Spot, Run is pretty dry stuff), but when she began reading on her own, she loved Dick and Jane because it was easily readable and she could follow what happened in the stories.
615. Al D - 2/2/2000 9:28:48 PM
CalGal
Could you loan me the service of your child? We use the VCR for a night light. I tried to tape a golf match while I was out playing and came back to Jimmy Swaggert.
Every Presidential candidate wants to raise the leverl of K-12 education. They want to make the schools more responsible. What would be the best method of doing that? What if every restaurant in your town were run by the same company, and that company recieved money simply by having people walk in and walking in was mandatory five days a week. How good would those restaurants have to be. What incentive for getting better. Add to that the fact that every employee who managed to keep his job for four years, could not be fired unless he really screwed up.
The answer to making schools accoutable is privatization. Existing schools, public or private, would have a big advantage over start up schools, but start up schools would be a possibility. Parents would only move their children to them if they felt their child could get a better education. Ergo, both existing public and private schools would have to improve or go under. Liberals claim that vouchers would kill public schools. Is this because they believe they are so bad they could not keep students?
the argument that vouchers are to aid the rich is silly. Yes their children go to private schools for the most part.
616. Al D - 2/2/2000 9:37:15 PM
I taught in a very affluent area, Orinda, Calif. from 1967-1973. Had vouchers existed at that time, we would have lost very few students. Miramonte High was rated among the top schools in the nation. More than lip service has to be given to the education problem. Candidates have got to stop telling lies, such as saying they want to raise teacher's to the same level as Doctors and Lawyers. I knew then and anyone teaching today knows that there are teachers in the system that are not worth two hoots in hell. Getting them out is possible. Don't ever believe that tenure protecta a teacher no matter what. But, it takes a really strong, dedicated administrator to do it. I don't know about moost states, but in Calif, Ore., and Wash. most administrators come out of the physical education department. Now I admit, I am talking from experiences of 27 years ago, so this ancient imbecile may not know what he is talking about. I am not against public education. But I do think things could be better.
617. Indiana Jones - 2/2/2000 9:55:19 PM
This may have been covered up thread, Al, but I wonder if you've heard about this ACLU case against the Vermont school system (I'm almost positive it was Vermont). I read about it in a magazine on a plane last month.
It seems the ACLU is suing to force the reduction of private donations to and volunteer work for schools in Vermont because it's "unfair" to the schools that don't get these donations. It seems earlier that the ACLU had sued in Vermont to make the schools restructure their funding because property taxes weren't allocating money equally enough (old story of well-to-do school districts having better property values).
So once this changed by court order, the well-to-do folks started giving money to their local schools to make them better, and the ACLU sued to stop this.
This reminds me of a quotation I read in a book on Balkan culture. It said in Western Europe when your neighbor has something better than you, you work harder in hopes of obtaining it. In Eastern Europe you work hard at destroying what your neighbor has.
618. Al D - 2/2/2000 10:22:30 PM
Indiana
It is amusing the concepts some people have. They talk like the reason there are so many poor people is because there are so many rich people. You know, if you grant hot, you must grant cold. When poverty is not defined in absolute terms, then as Jesus said (I think) "The poor will always be with you."
The ACLU took a school in Detroit to court to force them to place boys and girls in the same classes. The school was predoninently Black, and the administrator felt, and he was right, they would do better academically. Who really cares, as long as the politicaly correct action is taken. I hope some of the educators on the Mote will speak to my above posts. Of course, they are all off work by now.
619. wonkers2 - 2/2/2000 11:11:59 PM
Arky, we enjoyed Dr. Seuss, too. Our sailboat is named Lorax after our family's favorite Dr. Seuss book. (Second choice for a name: "Dr. Science.")
620. joezan - 2/3/2000 1:13:23 AM
Indy:
Is that the mess John Irving (author of Garp) is involved in?
Something similar happened in New York's Greenwich Village 3 or 4 years ago. The local elementary school could not afford to hire more teachers, and the class sizes swelled. So (the Village being the Village) the local folks chipped in to hire a couple more teachers. At first the commie school board rejected the proposal. "Not fair - you people suffer with the rest of NY in our miserably over funded but under-served schools", was, in essence, their response.
Eventually, the school board was shamed into letting them hire the extra teachers, but was then forced to provide the rest of the city with the same teacher/student ratio.
621. DanDillon - 2/3/2000 7:12:57 AM
Liberals claim that vouchers would kill public schools. Is this because they believe they are so bad they could not keep students?
School vouchers make eminent sense. There is a ripple effect that takes place when vouchers enter the picture. They naturally force a school, public or private, to operate at a very effecient level. They promote teacher training and general preparation, encourage administrative streamlining, create an extremely low tolerance for discipline problems, discourage wasted money on extravagant sports arenas and scads of technology that staff doesn't know how to use, and, ideally, ultimately, they raise student performance.
Taking dollars away from one school and bringing them to another naturally forces the losing school to shape up or close down. Shouldn't the Darwinian theory of "natural selection" apply to those places that teach it?
622. Adrianne - 2/3/2000 8:01:12 AM
OK, last night I bought a cheapo set of flashcards. Part of the set has pictures of, oh, say, a blue horse on one side and a blue "paint" splash and the word "Blue" on the other. Another part of the set has shapes - ie, a clock and on the other side, a circle with the word "circle" - another part of the set has (supposedly) the 50 most common words found in children's books on one side (ball,say) and a picture of the ball on the other.
While Fang! was eating dinner, I opened the cards and showed them to her one by one - first the side with the picture, then flipped to word, repeating it each time, about five times per card, fairly quickly. She watched, apparently fascinated. I went through about 15 cards and stopped, but she kept saying "more!" so I'd do another 15, then another, then another. We went through 60 cards before I put them away, and she never stopped looking at them and pointing, sometimes saying the name of the picture or colour, or making the animal sound.
So I don't feel like I was pushing her...even though I felt kinda stepford-parentish while I was doing it. She seemed really, really, interested, so I guess we'll keep doing it.
Also (CG and Dan) in the pack is a "helpful hints" card for parents that gives examples of memory games similar to the ones you described. We'll do those too, I guess.
So, am I a pushy Mumma for doing the flashcards? Will she rebel by refusing to bathe and wearing blue eyeshadow when she's a teen? AM I RUINING MY CHILD'S LIFE?
:-)
623. theDiva - 2/3/2000 9:37:10 AM
Since she enjoyed them and asked for more, the answer would be 'no'. I'd give them to her to play with during floor time one day. Lay them out a few at a time, read them off to her, and then ask her 'where is the (whatever)? Can you point to the (whatever)?', wait a moment, and then show it to her, saying 'Here it is! Here is the (whatever)!' Or just let her sort through them herself and see what she does with them. Follow her lead.
And The Mothers Almanac was written by Marguerite Kelly and Elia Parsons. I checked my dog-eared, falling apart copy this morning.
624. Adrianne - 2/3/2000 9:47:12 AM
Diva
I'm putting in an Amazon order today, and it's on my list. Thanks!
625. Dantheman - 2/3/2000 9:51:47 AM
Ad,
I agree with Deev. Fang liked it because it's a new game and she was spending time playing with her mommy. As long as she's clearly enjoying it, there's nothing wrong.
626. theDiva - 2/3/2000 9:58:16 AM
hot diggity!
I'll try to remember some other books I used. That was the main one. Oh, and you know what would be great? Gymboree, or something like it. Gracie and I spent many a happy hour bouncing around foam slides and whooping it up during parachute time.
627. ChristiPeters - 2/3/2000 10:07:41 AM
LDs favorite Dr Suess books were Green Eggs and Ham, and Fox in Sox.
I used to buy the "school workbooks" for LD, but I told her they were game books and she got to do pages in them as a reward for good behavior.
(Sneaky, ain't I?)
628. Indiana Jones - 2/3/2000 10:43:20 AM
joezan:
Here are couple of links I found...
ACLU wins court battle re Vermont property taxes and schools
ACLU fights school fundraising by private individuals
629. CalGal - 2/3/2000 11:49:40 AM
Ad,
Let me get this straight: you bought flashcards, introduced them to her, she leapt on them like a new toy, she had a hell of a time playing with them, getting exactly the sort of experience the cards are intended to offer--and you're wondering if you pushed her too hard?
That's a big NO, I'm thinking.
In fact, the opposite is often true--many parents are so worried that they're pushing their kids that they ignore the fact that a bright and inquisitive child isn't getting the input they need. Fang's reaction could be a sign that she wants more to learn, more to do, more challenges.
I tell a lot of stories about my sister's kids because the three of them are all extremely bright and starved for challenges. On several occasions, my sister watched me take 20 minutes to teach them something that she thought was well below their capabilities--and this after they demanded that I do so. ("Auntie Cal, Auntie Cal! Show me something!" is one of the first things they say when I visit.)
She finally got the hint they were screaming at her and started buying those little yellow workbooks. The kids do them for fun now.
The trick is to not link the lessons to anything other than themselves. You're not showing her flashcards so she can learn how to read--you're showing her flashcards because she gets a kick out of the input and looking at the pictures and playing games.
So don't risk depriving Fang of the intellectual input she loves just because you're worried that you might push her.
630. Adrianne - 2/3/2000 11:54:43 AM
I'm mostly joking, CalGal.
631. Adrianne - 2/3/2000 11:55:35 AM
Besides, if she's TOO smart, how will she ever catch a HUSBAND?!!
632. CalGal - 2/3/2000 12:22:08 PM
I see the joking, it was the "mostly" I was addressing.
Also, the issue of smart kids and their needs is one of my major hot buttons, so I was just expounding to the world at large.
633. Adrianne - 2/3/2000 12:27:17 PM
Well, I used to scoff (preparenthood) at the "pushy" parents that were dead-set on little princess learning to read, play violin, dance ballet, and figure eigenvalues before the age of 3.
Now I am one.
See, there's where the "mostly" part comes in. I AM a little uncomfortable about becoming "one of them" - but now I understand something I didn't when I was mocking the over-achiever brigade - sometimes these kids really do WANT and need this sort of instruction, and it isn't a matter of the parent pushing a poor little miserable tot too quickly into adulthood.
I'm not uncomfortable enough to stop giving Fang the tools and encouragement that she needs and wants, just uncomfortable enough to make fun of myself and how I might be perceived.
That's where the joking part comes in.
634. CalGal - 2/3/2000 12:31:02 PM
but now I understand something I didn't when I was mocking the over-achiever brigade - sometimes these kids really do WANT and need this sort of instruction, and it isn't a matter of the parent pushing a poor little miserable tot too quickly into adulthood
Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. That's the part that I react to in any of these discussions, and is the root source of all that energy in my posts.
635. ChristiPeters - 2/3/2000 12:33:10 PM
Adrienne -
Yep, some people looked at my askance when I put LD in dance lessons at the tender age of 3. What they didn't understand was that she had been asking for them since she was 2!
All I had to do was watch the lessons where she was super super intense and paid attention better thatn the 6 yr olds to know I had done the right thing.
636. ChristiPeters - 2/3/2000 12:34:08 PM
(sheeesh why is it that lately whenever I try to type that or than, it comes out thatn?)
637. theDiva - 2/3/2000 12:46:20 PM
Ad
Didn't you know a whole lot more about parenting before you became a parent? I know I did.
638. Adrianne - 2/3/2000 12:49:34 PM
Oh certainly.
"My kids will NEVER (fillintheblank)"
"I would never allow (fillintheblank)"
"The problem with that kid is his parents didn't (fillintheblank)"
639. theDiva - 2/3/2000 12:54:56 PM
Ad
Truly. Me, too. And with such certainty and authority.
Look, Fang! will let you know if she feels pushed. Kids have a way of doing that.
640. arkymalarky - 2/3/2000 5:14:34 PM
We started Mose with piano lessons at three because she was already playing piano on her own, and she remained interested until her teacher moved and we changed teachers. She continued to progress beautifully, but not according to the way the teacher was directing her, and she began not to like it. We, mistakenly I think, kept her in lessons a while longer, then found a wonderful teacher, but by that time she was ready to quit, and we let her. She loves music and had the natural talent to do very well, but it was really hard for us to determine the difference between a stage that we should wait out and a sincere drop in interest or a real need to change teachers.
In retrospect, I've decided I don't like the rigid, rap-your-knuckles-with-a-ruler type of piano teacher, though I thought at the time it was the best way for Mose to become a disciplined player and learn correctly. Luckily she still enjoys playing on her own, and may go back to it one day, since she does have an excellent foundation. Concert pianist isn't in the cards for her, though, I'm afraid, and another thing I learned from the experience is that talent, and even interest, doesn't necessarily equal a desire or drive to do something.
As far as dance and gymnastics, we did it early because that's what all the other little girls she knew were doing, but she didn't like either one at all from the beginning, so we dropped them post haste.
"Didn't you know a whole lot more about parenting before you became a parent? I know I did."
Hahaha. When I'm in the grocery store trying to ignore a wailer, all that knowledge comes back to me.
641. Al D - 2/3/2000 5:23:05 PM
arky
With our first, Michael, I insisted in teaching him a new word every day, I mean long ones like obstreperous. It did a world of good. He became a comic juggler. go figure. Your child is and will always be great, not because you gave her piano lessons, but because you give her lots of love and understanding. My heart goes out to Ad, in that she is so concerned with her child's development at such a tender age. Please don't think I don't understand, because I understand only too well.
I really came over in hopes you had a comment about my view on what would help America's schools. But I get the idea it is a dead horse. Acually, I never saw the sense of that statement, but I use it anyway.
642. arkymalarky - 2/3/2000 5:27:46 PM
The reason I didn't address it is that I went in circles with BJ on that ad nauseum.
I don't have a problem with public school vouchers. The reason I do with private schools is that they don't have to abide by the same regulations, they can approach education with an agenda, and I don't believe they should be handed state or federal money.
I also think it's important to remember that the low-end kids will stay in the low-end schools and once vouchers are in place those schools will get worse and worse, and if, on the outside chance, they close, those kids will be hot potatoes. The "good" schools won't want them bringing down their stats.
643. arkymalarky - 2/3/2000 5:28:53 PM
BTW,
That wasn't to say I didn't think vouchers should be discussed, it's just that I got burned out on discussing them with BJ and didn't feel I had anything productive to add.
644. arkymalarky - 2/3/2000 5:31:39 PM
I like that about teaching your son a word a day. We just do the best we can as we go, I guess.
645. ChristiPeters - 2/3/2000 5:33:08 PM
LD was major into dance from the age of 3 until we moved here when she was 10 1/2. She really really loved her dance company and very very much resented having to move and leave the dance company and all of her friends. She swore she'd never dance again if she couldn't dance for Miss L___, and she hasn't. I've gently suggested that there are dance studios here and I would be happy to take her around to them to check them out and she has firmly turned me down. I will not push her.
Since then she has tried soccer and hated it, tried volleyball and liked it, and is now in the midst of her first basketball experience.
I nudge her every now and then, but I try very hard to let her do the pushing.
646. Al D - 2/3/2000 5:34:33 PM
Judith
Would you swear on a stack of Bibles that no Public Schools have an agenda other that teaching subject matter? You and I both know better. If that is true in Ak., then you are far behind the times, thank god.
647. arkymalarky - 2/3/2000 5:44:58 PM
You talkin' to me, Al?
I mean an openly religious agenda. Which is fine for a private school. And no, I wouldn't say public schools as a rule have agendas. Individual teachers, being humans, may, and states may, and school boards may, but the systems as a whole are pulled from too many different directions to even be able to have a clear agenda of their own in most cases.
648. Al D - 2/3/2000 5:57:44 PM
arky
I, of course did mean you. I guess I have Judith on my brain. I quit teaching in 1973. Part of the reason was that the didtrict had been taken over by a very liberal element that forced teachers to attend sensitivity groups. the main focus of which was to get us to realize that subject matter was not really relavant; what was important was how the student felt about himself and what he was learning. While I think teachers should be concerned about values of honesty and hard work, etc. I did not feel we were there to mold children into some new age way. By the way, I was a yellow dog Democrat at the time, and did my fair share of trying to bend their minds to liberal ideas, as I'm sure you never do.
649. ycmeehan - 2/3/2000 6:02:40 PM
The only constitutionally tested voucher program in the country
Arky, I realize that you are burned out on the issue of vouchers but maybe this article will interest you.
650. arkymalarky - 2/3/2000 6:03:51 PM
Haha. I just feel like my liberal bent pulls their excessive conservatism a little closer to center.
Really, though, I wish you could have read the student essay on the causes and consequences of the Civil War that I read today. I hadn't read anything quite like it in a long time, maybe never. I didn't know that mentality was alive and well so close to me. Kind of scary. And yes, I do try to teach in a way that counteracts that kind of thinking.
651. arkymalarky - 2/3/2000 6:05:14 PM
Thanks Ycmeehan. I'll give it a read.
652. Al D - 2/3/2000 6:17:57 PM
arky
I wish I knew what was in that essay. Am I to conclude it was a very slanted view, full of anti-black sentiment? If so, why not give that student the assignment of researching and writting an essay that contradicts his/her opinions? Students sometimes asked me what was I getting at sometimes, and I would say, well if you come into the class a conservative I want you to go out a liberal, but if you come in a liberal, I want you to leave a conservative. What i meant was that i wanted each student to examine everything, to challenge everything, to think as much as possible for himself. I tried to teach them the difference between a statement of fact and a statement of opinion.
653. arkymalarky - 2/3/2000 6:23:46 PM
It did have some disconcerting ideas in it. I don't know that I wouldn't be more effective to progress in general terms. We're watching the movie "Glory" right now.
"I tried to teach them the difference between a statement of fact and a statement of opinion."
It's a hard thing to teach, and even when students know the difference, their opinions take precedence over facts sometimes. It's hard for all of us to remember the difference at times, I guess.
654. SnowOwl - 2/3/2000 6:29:09 PM
Al,
Somewhere earlier in the thread you stated that privatisation is the way to cure the ills of current education. You didn't provide any reasons as to why you think this is so, or any evidence to back up your statement. Would you care to elaborate?
655. Al D - 2/3/2000 6:34:39 PM
Snow Owl
I have to run some errands right now, but i will read my post to see if your assertion is valid, and wi discuss it with you at any rate later today.
656. Al D - 2/3/2000 8:28:14 PM
Snow Owl
Perhaps what is working here is basic assumtions, mine being that the more choice people have, the better off things will be, and that privatization leads to more compitition and compitition leads to a better product. As I see the current Public Educational system, there is little to no insentive to please the customer, be that parent or student. In most states, children are forced to attend school after the age of eight. I'm not sure what the upper age limit is.
For many of the 8,000 low-income, minority students in the program, choice gives them their first opportunity to attend a school that their parents believe suits them best," said Tim Sheehy, resident of the Metropolitan Milwaukee Association of Commerce, after reviewing the audit.
from the site linked above. Another assumption of mine is that there is a problem with Public Schools at this point in time. People are natuarlly resistant to change, of course not a statement of fact but opinion, but if you can accept it, I would suggest that is a major factor in the resistance to vouchers. If vouchers were used, parents would search for a school in which their child would be safe. In order to survive, Schools would have to make them as safe as humanly possible.,p>
Do you have a resistance to vouchers? If so, why? It is a little hard to talk in the abstract, but I did the best I could.
657. Al D - 2/4/2000 3:02:14 AM
Snow Owl
thank you very much for asking, though.
658. SnowOwl - 2/4/2000 4:30:42 AM
Al,
I am uneasy when people start talking about kids as customers, as though education is just another commodity to be sold.
A voucher system was considered here at one stage but was rejected, mostly because of fears that the real choice would end up in the hands of the schools not the students and their parents. That is, schools with "good" reputations would attract large numbers of prospective students and would be able to pick and choose amongst them. It's not simply a question of saying let's introduce competition and expecting schools to be able to compete freely. Some schools will enter the competition better endowed than others and thus more able to attract the sort of good students who will add to the reputation.
Obviously much depends on how a voucher system is operated. Providing each student with the same amount to spend on education doesn't work for a whole variety of reasons. Some kids come from better off families and their families will be able to subsidise their education. Kids in poorer areas may not have the financial resources which would enable them to travel out of their area to attend the better schools. Like it or not, under a voucher system some kids are still going to have a poorer educational experience than others.
You might be interested to know that here in NZ kids in State schools consistently out-perform kids in private schools.
659. SpenceMirrlees - 2/4/2000 4:52:25 AM
schools with "good" reputations would attract large numbers of prospective students and would be able to pick and choose amongst them.
Sounds a lot like post-secondary education. Is that a problem? The other kids still have to go somewhere, and if they are flocking to school X rather than Y it means that someone at X has dropped the ball.
Nevertheless I think the impact of choice on teacher incentives is probably overstated. Most teachers I know work hard because they like their jobs, have a sense of obligation, or some combination.
under a voucher system some kids are still going to have a poorer educational experience than others.
I think that's an unfair critique of choice, vouchers, etc. Why foist upon them the onus of equalizing educational experiences? If every person's educational experience improved by X%, in what sense is that not an improvement?
I am not suggesting that would be the effect of school choice: of course choice would create winners and losers like everything else and resolving that tension is not trivial. But we ought to keep our priorities, and performance measures, straight.
In any case, it's difficult to imagine that another system could perform worse by equality standards than US public education. As long as schools are at least available in any form we can't be doing much worse.
660. SpenceMirrlees - 2/4/2000 4:55:07 AM
Very difficult to make sense of cross-country comparisons of relative perormance of public vs. private education. Lots of uncontrolled influences.
661. wonkers2 - 2/4/2000 8:40:11 AM
I held my oldest on my lap and read the NYTimes aloud. Now, he reads the Wall Street Journal and is a Republican.
662. Al D - 2/4/2000 2:23:59 PM
Snow Owl
I enjoyed your input.
Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If the public schools nation wide were doing as good a job as N.Z., I don't think there would be a need for change. I certainly don't think of children as a commodity. However, I do think of schools as providing something that is needed, and I cannot see how compitition would make things worse. i am typing and thinking fast, as I have a golf date in one hour. I shall return and try to say more. Our time difference makes it a little difficult, perhaps. Your post above came in around midnight Hi. time.
663. SnowOwl - 2/5/2000 9:14:41 PM
Al,
It's been a while since I was involved in education so I'm rather out of touch with what's going on here, let alone in the States. For that reason I'm really not sure of what you see the current problems as being. Maybe if you could elaborate we could talk about them.
Spence,
I'm not trying to compare across countries. I was simply telling Al that privatisation is not necessarily the answer to accomplishing good outcomes from education.
664. Al D - 2/5/2000 9:36:59 PM
Snow Owl
Let me confess that it has been some time since I have been connected to education, also. I taught for eight years, from 1965-1973. Almost every politician is running to be the "education President". Bradley, for example says he wants to make the schools more accountable. Bush says he wants to set standards and if they do not meet those standards, fedeeral money should be taken away. Others claim that students are graduating from High School with diplomas they can't read. Gore said he wants every student to graduate able to achieve at a high level.
I have really not heard anything specific that would accomplish what they talk about. When I left teaching, one of the main reasons was that our district, consisting of five high schools, seemed to have been taken over by a group that was far more interested in making sure that a student felt good about himself rather than master any particular subject matter. If was all very confucing to me. Perhaps I was already to old and set in my ways, having started College at the ripe old age of 27. I was a High School drop out.
In many states there is a thing called "Outcome Based Education." While I will admit, I don't know much about it, but from what I have heard, it is also more concerned with the psycological outcome of the student than his ability to master subject matter. Its critics say they are more concerned how the student approaches the addition of 2+2 than knowing that the answer is 4. I have a Grandson in the 12th grade and my daughter says he is getting A's and learning nothing, and doing no work at all. He has a high opinion of himself academically for little or no reason. I love him dearly, but worry how he will get on in life.
(con.t)
665. Al D - 2/5/2000 9:45:20 PM
Snow Owl
Many people think that Public Education has been taken over by Unions, who have a greater interest in benefits that learning. Now, do not think I do not want to see teachers well compensated for there work. I have done many things in my 68 years, and the hardest work I ever did was teaching. But I also know that a fairly large % of the faculty were earning too much, if one considered what good they were going. They were mere time servers who would never been able to keep a job in a competitive enviornment.,p>
I believe vouchers would help the Public Schools return to the once great job they did, because if not, they would not survive. The drive to survive is a powerful motivator.
I do not know enough about the daily workings of schools to list faults to be corrected.
What day and what time is it in NZ? I think it is Sunday around 9a.m. Am I even close? Here it is Sat. 4:45 p.m.
666. SnowOwl - 2/5/2000 9:52:04 PM
Al,
Let me think about what you've said and get back to it later when I have more time.
It's 3.45 pm Sunday in New Zealand, and a wet, cold Sunday it is too, in my part of the country.
667. Al D - 2/5/2000 9:57:35 PM
Snow Owl
Today is a 10 on Kauai. I have not gone out, as I have two golf days planned in a row. Gee, that sounds stupid, as if golf is the only thing that gets me out of the house.
668. SpenceMirrlees - 2/6/2000 2:03:47 AM
Snow,
The fact that students in public schools in NZ outperform those in private schools there does not imply that private schools, if they had the same populations there as public schools currently have, would not outperform public schools. Too much unknown about the populations they are serving. (At least, it's unknown to me.)
Nor does the outpeformance of public by private schools by some performance measures in the US imply the opposite. Once again, too much not held constant for such a coarse comparison.
669. Uzmakk - 2/17/2000 8:04:39 PM
Spence:
You will be glad to know that in the book I have just finished, Who Killed Homer?,the authors say that among the best students they have come from the mathematical disciplines. Too much ego in the literature students and too much of something else in some other deliniation, and, ofcourse, not much of anything in most students.
670. SpenceMirrlees - 2/18/2000 8:00:15 PM
interesting Uz -- who are these authors?
Not sure what that says about me, however, as in my math classes between 6th and 12th grades I earned several D's and one solid F.
Of course the authors' statement is one about the tail end of the distributions of the relevant populations and as everyone knows generalizations about their middles is difficult. I am teaching an applied math class this quarter to undergraduates who are supposedly very bright and technically adept (median math SAT score: 800), but many lack finesse and make up for it with brawn. Some of them would rather solve a system of 7 equations than sit back for a second and think.
In fact the best students appear to be the ones who have wide-ranging interests including literature and humanities. That probably is because it correlates with the intellectual curiosity that's really important, and of course says nothing about causal relationships.
671. MsIvoryTower - 2/19/2000 11:02:05 AM
For those of you interested in the cascading effects of the Hopwood decision (Hopwood v UT - where the 5th District declared UT Law School's admission policy unconstitutional), the University of Florida's Board of Regents just banned race-based admissions criteria for it's system campuses as well.
I expect other southern states will follow, soon.
672. MsIvoryTower - 2/19/2000 11:04:32 AM
its.....ITS!
grrrrr.
673. Candide - 2/19/2000 10:56:16 PM
Being neither a teacher nor a parent I don't post in this thread, but I have lurked quite often and found it extremely rewarding to read. Must it really die?
674. DanDillon - 2/19/2000 10:58:39 PM
As one of the thread's hosts, I wish I knew why it's been RIPped. What's going on?
675. CalGal - 2/19/2000 11:01:41 PM
It hadn't moved and Wabbit decided to RIP them. Go back about twenty or forty posts in Suggestions.
676. PelleNilsson - 2/20/2000 1:43:55 PM
14% of university professors in the US are female. This represents a 4th place in the international league. Finland is second, Portugal is third. I bet you'll never guess the leader (no, it's not Sweden).
But think hard and then check the white-font answer.
Answer: Turkey, 22%
677. ScottLoar - 2/20/2000 4:33:52 PM
Russia? Or are we not to guess openly but secretly opine then check the white?
678. PelleNilsson - 2/20/2000 4:39:27 PM
Scott
Russia is a credible guess. But I did not intend a quiz, I simply wanted to hide the surprise.
679. SnowOwl - 2/20/2000 4:43:36 PM
Pelle,
Are these professors as an academic rank, or professors as seems to be used in the US to refer to all tenured University academic staff?
680. PelleNilsson - 2/20/2000 4:54:32 PM
As an academic rank.
681. SnowOwl - 2/20/2000 5:01:13 PM
I've got no idea really, but I would imagine it will be somewhere that's had a reasonably recent expansion of education at the tertiary level.
682. SpenceMirrlees - 2/20/2000 5:11:47 PM
"Professor" in the US doesn't just refer to university faculty with tenure (namely, professors and associate professors). It refers to full-time untenured ones (assistant professors) and sometimes even adjuncts as well.
Surely the statistic refers to full time faculty at all three ranks, not just the first, as Message # 680 suggests.
683. PelleNilsson - 2/20/2000 5:16:32 PM
SnowOwl
You don't have to guess. The answer is right there in white font in #676.
684. SnowOwl - 2/20/2000 5:21:24 PM
Spence,
It's not clear to me. Here, only a few of the most senior staff in any University Department are Professors. It's an academic rank conferred by the University on individuals who are distinguished in their field.
685. SnowOwl - 2/20/2000 5:23:38 PM
Yes, I've seen the answer now, Pelle, but I was trying to see if I could deduce the answer myself. I couldn't, and would never have picked that country.
686. SpenceMirrlees - 2/20/2000 5:29:20 PM
Sounds like Professor Emeritus in the US. If you are interested in what gender equity in scholarship was like 35 years ago, that might be a good thing to look at. I would be very surprised if that was the focus.
Pelle, do you have a link?
687. PelleNilsson - 2/20/2000 5:34:45 PM
Spence
It's from a Swedish science journal. I'm off to bed now but I'll have a look tomorrow. BTW, much thanks for your input in the Slow One. I'll post there too tomorrow.
688. SnowOwl - 2/20/2000 5:36:05 PM
A Professor Emeritus here is a retired professor who, by virtue of particular distinction, is allowed to keep some of the privileges of rank. Not all Professors become PE's, in fact, very few of them do.
At one time I used to lecture on Women's Issues in Education and was very interested in gender equity in scholarship. I haven't read any current research recently though, so I'm completely out of touch with what's going on.
689. SpenceMirrlees - 2/20/2000 5:40:08 PM
I see. That's basically identical to PE here. Maybe your professors are more like chaired professors in the US. They hold names like the Chance Pennington IV Professorship, or the AT&T Chair in Accounting, or something named after a wealthy benefactor.
690. SpenceMirrlees - 2/20/2000 5:41:32 PM
but universities down there probably have those too, and there may not be a direct analogue.
691. SnowOwl - 2/20/2000 6:07:53 PM
Yep, we've got some of them too. I think it's mostly just a matter of terminology. Academic rankings here go: Assistant Lecturer, Lecturer, Senior Lecturer, Associate Professor, Professor. For most academics Senior Lecturer is the end point in their career path. Promotion through the ranks is putatively on merit (based on publications, mainly), although ability to play political games is a big factor.
In the past few years there's been a move away from tenure to renewable (performance related) short term contracts. This has been bitterly opposed by the academic staff but welcomed by those members of the public who have always seen academia as some kind of sinecure.
692. SpenceMirrlees - 2/20/2000 7:08:40 PM
I see. As you may know academics here start at Assistant Professor, then move to Associate (usually at the same time they get tenure), then full. That's where most stop. A few get endowed chairs and fewer get emeritus.
I sometimes wonder why there isn't more opposition to tenure in academia. The best researchers would be the ones who gained most from its abolition.
693. SnowOwl - 2/20/2000 7:44:24 PM
I sometimes wonder why there isn't more opposition to tenure in academia. The best researchers would be the ones who gained most from its abolition.
I'm not sure about this, Spence. It would make it a lot easier for Universities to get rid of those who espouse unpopular opinions and that's not necessarily a good thing.
694. SpenceMirrlees - 2/20/2000 8:01:38 PM
well, of course that's the counterargument. There is certainly value in having a group of people who won't lose their jobs if they say unpopular things.
Nevertheless, it would still be easier for a good researcher than a marginal one to call a university's bluff, and that's my point. Getting rid of those people means getting rid of their grant money, and by assumption the people we're talking about have a lot of it. In short, tenure offers job security that is less valuable to top researchers because they are less likely to need it. And furthermore, the job insecurity of the duds at top tier schools is the career opportunity of rising stars at next-tier schools.
Combine this with the fact that most researchers never say anything to make their administration very nervous, and you have a collection of potential winners from tenure abolition.
695. Uzmakk - 2/20/2000 8:34:08 PM
Spence:
Victor Davis Hanson and John Heath are the authors of Who Killed Homer? Hanson is Professor of Greek at California State University in Fresno and Heath is Associate Professor of Classics and Chairman of the Classics Department at Santa Clara University.
696. MsIvoryTower - 2/20/2000 11:22:40 PM
Spence
An interesting take on tenure is an article by McPherson and Winston (1988) called "The Economics of Academic Tenure: A Relational Perspective", in Brenaman and Youn (eds.) Academic Labor Markets and Careers. The Falmer Press.
I like their analysis because they try to examine what's different about academic labor. In particular, they look analyze the mechanism of tenure as a recruitment/retention strategy by educational institutions, and may be well suited to the problems they face having to seek such highly-specialized labor. I use the article in my class, and while it's getting old now, I still think it's a very interesting read.
697. MsIvoryTower - 2/20/2000 11:28:20 PM
good god. I'm not even going to try to correct that post, but omit look for sure.
698. SpenceMirrlees - 2/20/2000 11:34:30 PM
By recruitment/retention, do you mean some sort of life cycle explanation? It's about the profile of research output over one's career or something? I was thinking that might have something to do with it.
I myself would make very positive inferences about someone who wanted to be an academic long term and wanted a series of short term contracts instead of tenure.
699. MsIvoryTower - 2/20/2000 11:53:40 PM
do you mean some sort of life cycle explanation?
No, not really. McPherson and Winston argue that HE institutions face unique labor problems: they require highly specialized workers who cannot substitute for others. That is, one cannot hire any PhD, the subject needs are specific, and the labor is not interchangeable.
This results in a kind of tradeoff; because mistakes are very costly HE's want a long probationary period to evaluate the likely success of the academic, but academics do not build loyalty to any one institution, their committment is to their field. So, tenure serves as the carrot to induce the academic into accepting a 6 year probationary stint, and in remaining long enough at one institution to obtain it.
I don't think this argument is the same as a life cycle analysis, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by it.
700. MsIvoryTower - 2/20/2000 11:59:17 PM
Btw, they also discuss the option of short-term contractual labor arrangements as a possible alternative solution but find it wanting. Short-term contracts are typically 1-3 year stints. The problem is that it results in bidding wars, and even lower loyalty among faculty than already exists. Institutions end up losing their best and brightest unless they have lots of money.
Public institutions would be greatly disadvantaged in such a scenario.
701. MsIvoryTower - 2/21/2000 12:07:01 AM
Of course, I left out a key issue on the supply side in the contractual alternative: it would tend to chew up and spit out academics over time, that is, the preference would always be toward younger scholars (cheaper, greater potential early in their careers for publishing, etc). However, if older academics were to be shut out of the market, or worse, take the stairway down in prestige and status with every new contract, over time, this would significantly discourage new entrants into the market (the return to a PhD in most fields is already absymally low).
Of course, the counter to this would be huge, substantial increases in starting salaries for new entrants, but then, this would, again, disadvantage public versus private institutions.
702. dusty - 2/21/2000 12:38:14 AM
In Message # 688 SnowOwl
At one time I used to lecture on Women's Issues in Education and was very interested in gender equity in scholarship.
There was a brief related discussion in another thread. It starts with Thoughtful's post
Message # 967 in thread 38
and goes on, interspersed with other posts, for 50-100 posts.
703. PelleNilsson - 2/21/2000 6:47:55 AM
Here are percentages of female full professors. The source is the EU commission. Holland is at the bottom with 5%.
| Turkey | 22 |
| Finland | 18 |
| Portugal | 17 |
| France | 14 |
| Australia | 14 |
| USA | 14 |
| Spain | 13 |
| Canada | 12 |
| Norway | 12 |
| Sweden | 11 |
| Italy | 11 |
| Greece | 10 |
| New Zealand | 10 |
704. SpenceMirrlees - 2/21/2000 2:57:51 PM
it would tend to chew up and spit out academics over time, that is, the preference would always be toward younger scholars (cheaper, greater potential early in their careers for publishing, etc).
This is what I meant by the life cycle issue -- the profile of output over a career. If you expect a scholar to spend his or her most productive years in limbo, years that could be spent outside of academia for most of us, you must credibly commit to job security in less productive years.
705. PelleNilsson - 2/21/2000 3:33:38 PM
Weber has written on this. Possible title: 'Science as a profession' (I only have the Swedish version).
706. Uzmakk - 2/22/2000 6:44:33 AM
Very interesting. My Homer book was as much a harsh attack on Classics education across the country as it was an exposition on the Greeks. A book about education.
"Modernism alone is not the culprit. Rather, a new generation of humanists trained in the langueages and literatures of Greece and Rome forsook their responsibilities as stewards of the Western legacy. Either they saw the Classical World as shameful and exploitative and hence did their best to denigrate the Greeks, or they simply became careerists, abandoning the teaching of undergraduates in favor of esoteric and little-read academic research."--blurb on book
Classics is not cutting edge stuff in the sense that research in genetics or computer science is and should not be taught in the same manner and classics departments should not be structured the same way that the sciences are structured. Far more emphasis on the undergraduate and far less emphasis on esoterica among the specialists say the authors.
I read the book so I figured I might as well say something about it.
707. DanDillon - 8/15/2000 8:53:18 PM
And here we go.... It's back to school!
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