Election 2004 pt. 3

10002. jexster - 9/16/2004 8:12:47 AM

Pathetic....real winning message there TD..say speaking of messages..howze that search going

RESULTS MATTER

10003. jexster - 9/16/2004 8:12:49 AM

Pathetic....real winning message there TD..say speaking of messages..howze that search going

RESULTS MATTER

10004. jexster - 9/16/2004 8:13:57 AM

Stop messing up the Thread..throw that bad hooch out

10005. concerned - 9/16/2004 8:17:07 AM

'Dougie's' book is written at the perfect mental age level for most Democrats.

10006. concerned - 9/16/2004 11:45:52 AM

10007. alistairconnor - 9/16/2004 12:10:13 PM

How big is Bush's lead?

As big as his courage.
As big as his problem-solving ability.
As big as his integrity.

That's right... it's less than zero.

The poll also concluded that without Nader, Kerry is leading Bush nationally by 48% by 45% and with Nader by 46% to 45% with Nader at 3%. Among likely voters, it is Kerry 47%, Bush 47%, Nader 3%. The Harris national poll (Sept. 9-13) puts Kerry ahead 48% to 47% and the Pew poll (Sept. 11-14) puts Bush ahead 47% to 46%. In contrast, Gallup (Sept. 13-15) has Bush ahead 55% to 42%. It is not clear why Gallup is contradicting three other polls that say the race is tied nationally.... from electoral-vote.com

10008. Magoseph - 9/16/2004 1:47:14 PM

Is it possible that the profusion of hurricanes off Florida is related to global warming, increasing water temperatures, or sustaining ocean warmth? If so, Floridians have every right to connect George Bush for the present disaster in Florida as a result of his kayoing of the Kyoto Global Warming Agreement.

10009. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 1:47:47 PM

Another AK-47 for iiibbb!: COPS SEIZE WEAPONS FROM HOME OF TEENAGER--POLICE SAY ONLINE CHAT THWARTED A COLUMBINE-LIKE SCHOOL ATTACK

Police thought it was a case of boneheaded teen bragging when the tip came in.

But then they found homemade bombs, school blueprints, an AK-47 ASSAULT RIFLE and shotguns stashed in his basement and attic.

The teen's father could also face charges. Officials said knew about the stolen weapons and helped his son hide them in the basement and attic ceilings....



Somebody should do a study on the type of people who have assault weapons. They sure arent't your average hunter or target shooter. I'm sure it would show that Bush is protecting the rights of a bunch of terrorist, psychos, sickos and criminals.

iiibbb says the assault weapons law didn't work so why renew it? I say if it didn't work why not strengthen it?

More here.

10010. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 1:51:34 PM

Another try: Here.

10011. alistairconnor - 9/16/2004 2:25:19 PM

Ah but the guns were stolen! No use making laws about guns : theft is already a crime.

It's not hard to steal guns when there are millions in circulation.

It would be hard to steal guns if the numbers in circulation matched the number of people who need them.

10012. alistairconnor - 9/16/2004 2:26:50 PM

But anyway, guns don't kill people.

If he couldn't get guns, probably that boy would have committed a Columbine-style massacre with a slingshot and a pocket knife.

(People do that all the time, in countries where guns aren't readily available.)

10013. iiibbb - 9/16/2004 2:48:32 PM

If that was a real assault rifle it was illegal for him to have anyway.

"Somebody should do a study on the type of people who have assault weapons. They sure arent't your average hunter or target shooter. I'm sure it would show that Bush is protecting the rights of a bunch of terrorist, psychos, sickos and criminals."

Cite please... otherwise it's your jaded, biased opinion. Assault weapons account for about 1% of all guns used in crimes, according to the criminals themselves. Using the inclusive definitions of assault weapons, the BoJ statistics indicate they are used 16% of murders. Why you think that banning them means they won't get a different weapon I don't know. It's not like the criminal decides not to commit a murder just because they can't find a high-capacity magazine for sale.

Most people I know that shoot military style weapons are vets or people interested in target shooting. I'm afraid I just don't know many terrorists or "sickos". These weapons are popular because surplus ammunition makes them inexpensive to practice with. They are also a challenge to shoot well. Target shooting with a finely zeroed bench rifle just isn't as interesting to be honest.

10014. iiibbb - 9/16/2004 2:48:40 PM

Face it, it was a Pointless gun ban. The fact that liberals keep pushing whatever ban they can just proves they're ignorant or not willing to make a honest attempt at solving gun crime. Remember... in your first citation, we let a 14 year old murderer back out on the street to shoot again.

How do you want to strengthen it? Give me precise prescriptions on how your measures will prevent crime. I'm interested how you're going to get criminals to comply with bans... The government isn't exactly serious about enforcing the laws they've got. Take the Almost 200,000 stops on purchases... less than convitions. Why aren't they arresting these people?

10015. iiibbb - 9/16/2004 2:50:09 PM

Message # 10010

Actually... they caught the guy anyway. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand-grenades.

10016. iiibbb - 9/16/2004 2:52:09 PM

Anyhow... the venom and sarcasm you Alister and Wonkers display toward gun owners only shows that there is no real desire to work the problems out.

It's becomes no surprise that the NRA stonewalls the way they do.

10017. iiibbb - 9/16/2004 2:55:08 PM

If Kerry loses, they're going to blame it on the vast right wing conspiracy... or the "powerful" gun lobby.

I'm certain they will be unwilling to admit that it's their words and deeds that make it so even someone like Bush can beat them.

Typical liberals... *whine* It's not our fault *whine*.

10018. jayackroyd - 9/16/2004 3:44:09 PM

You obviously didn't watch Bush's acceptance speech.

10019. judithathome - 9/16/2004 4:05:22 PM

Thanks, Concerned, for posting a picture of Bush's library in Message # 1000...

10020. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 4:32:14 PM

Venom toward gun owners? Hardly. I have two myself--a Winchester Model 12 shotgun and a .22 Remington bolt action repeater. My venom is toward the profiteering junk gun makers and dealers who sell to sickos, gun nuts, terrorists, children, and anyone with the money to buy. The majority of gun owners who hunt and target shoot are fine people. The sleaze ball manufacturers have conned people like iiibbb into thinking that their rights to own guns are threatened. Nothing could be further from the truth.

10021. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:06:42 PM

Re. 10008 -

You're pulling our collective leg, right? The last time Kyoto saw the light of day in the US, the Senate voted it down 95-0 during Xlowntoon's reign.

Do you have any idea of the breadth of opposition such a unanimous rejection means? It's completely bipartisan.

Yet you foolishly blame Bush for what he had nothing to do with.

10022. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:08:14 PM

I wish Magoseph could connect the dots on this one.

10023. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:10:00 PM

Why the implicit faith that Kyoto is worth anything, anyway? The pure symbolism is supposed to make people feel like something positive is happening?

10024. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:11:01 PM

Even the IPCC has admitted that Kyoto will accomplish virtually zilch. So why bother?

10025. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:12:39 PM

I believe Kyoto will probably detract from, because of the imposition of government mandate, some of the effort that the private sector would otherwise invest in improving energy efficient technology.

10026. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:23:44 PM

This is for several reasons. Among them are suppression of private economic activity through higher fuel taxes and effective restriction of the allowed sphere of energy related technology development due to increased government oversight.

10027. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:27:12 PM

One might argue that these effects will be minor, or not even all be applicable. But, so are the alleged benefits of Kyoto.

10028. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:36:10 PM

What's wrong with you Lefties, anyway? Ripping up Bush/Cheney campaign signs out of little 3 year old girls' hands. That's pretty low.

10029. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:41:48 PM

LW jerk at the Left, enjoying the little girl's distress.

10030. concerned - 9/16/2004 5:42:45 PM

Looks like a person of color in the background, reading out the ee-vile 3 year old 'Republican', too.

10031. jexster - 9/16/2004 5:55:22 PM

Follow the Yellow Brick Road..Adventures in BushWorld

You can't solve a problem if, through your spin soaked crackpot ideology, you can't see that there is a problem to solve.

Growing Unease With Bush IraQ Misadventure as Violence Mounts, Security Withers


The committee's moderate Republican chairman, Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, expressed exasperation at the administration's rosy prewar assessments that as soon as Hussein was deposed, a euphoric Iraqi population would embrace democracy.

"The nonsense of that is [now] apparent," he said. "The lack of planning is apparent."

"Nonsense" - that's Lugar's assessment of TD's last foray to pontificate on matters he doesn't know anything about.

10032. jexster - 9/16/2004 5:59:44 PM

I have been saying this for a year now....

The NIE follows other pessimistic assessments made public recently by respected independent think tanks. Britain's prestigious Royal Institute of International Affairs concluded that Iraq would be lucky to avoid an internal breakup and civil war and that the chaos could spark upheaval elsewhere in the Middle East.

Bush is Living In a Fantasy World of Spin
Kerry Takes the Gloves Off on IraQ

10033. iiibbb - 9/16/2004 6:00:15 PM

Message # 10008

The long run average of named storms per year is just under 20

About 6 TS, 12 Lesser Hurricanes and about 2 major storms

NOAA FAQ

10034. iiibbb - 9/16/2004 6:03:39 PM

Message # 10020

yes venom... I quote you

"Somebody should do a study on the type of people who have assault weapons. They sure arent't your average hunter or target shooter. I'm sure it would show that Bush is protecting the rights of a bunch of terrorist, psychos, sickos and criminals."

Someone should do a study... people that are into "Assault weapons" can't be normal... they must be terrorists, psychos, sickos, and criminals.

That's venom...

"I have two myself--a Winchester Model 12 shotgun and a .22 Remington bolt action repeater. "

That's weak... akin to "I'm not a racist... I have lots of black friends"

10035. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 6:10:38 PM

Kitty Kelly has been dishing dirt, quite convincingly, on the Bush family this morning on the Diane Rheam show--Bush was an alcoholic and addicted to drugs well into his 40s, Bush once drove his car in through the back end of his garage, enraged over Laura's criticizm of a speech he had given earlier that evening; the White House called the Chairman of NBC and tried to get Kelly's appearance on the Today Show cancelled and succeeded in getting her cancelled from several conservative Fox and NBC shows; Bush's father was quite a ladies man and, for a time, kept an Italian mistress in a NYC apartment, ditching and ditched her just before running for the Senate (later he gave speeches criticizing Nelson Rockefeller for his divorce when Rocky was running for the GOP nomination for President); Bush did cocaine at Camp David when his father was president (or VP?); Bush and Laura weren't on speaking terms for the rest of the family for a year due to Georgie's outrageous behavior, etc, etc.

10036. iiibbb - 9/16/2004 6:18:03 PM

"Bush's father was quite a ladies man and, for a time, kept an Italian mistress in a NYC apartment, ditching and ditched her just before running for the Senate (later he gave speeches criticizing Nelson Rockefeller for his divorce when Rocky was running for the GOP nomination for President)"

By this dirt are we supposed to admire Bush sr. for being more like Clinton? I thought liberals were all about how what goes on in your personal life doesn't matter. Wasn't Clinton justfied in lying about it later as well?

Not defending Bush... just trying to figure out your standards here and all...

How do you feel about Kennedy's drunk driving knowing how you feel about this? Currently, if we beleive the rumors, he's killed more people with his car than I have with my guns.

10037. thoughtful - 9/16/2004 6:21:11 PM

Well, kennedy killed as many people with his car as laura bush did.

10038. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:27:40 PM

TD asked me a question last night about the Gallup outlier poll which I answered substantially the way AL HUNT did in today's WSJ...

Nota Bene the report on turnout expectations...my 115,000,000 prediction is DEAD middle of what the B/c and K/e campaigns predict...

Could be coincidence, could be the sheer genius of a political "beautiful mind"..;)

For more detailed info see Teixeira's Short Course on the Subject

10039. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:28:45 PM

Election Surveys That Screen Out
'Unlikely' Voters Might Be Outdated
Al Hunt, WSJ

September 17, 2004

Presidential elections are poll-driven. The candidate ahead in the surveys usually gets better coverage, and the results energize supporters. The one behind often comes across as doing little right, and campaigns and constituencies lose confidence.

But what if the polls are wrong, and we aren't surveying the real likely electorate?

This might be more than an academic issue. A number of polls this presidential race show a gap in the preferences of registered voters vs. likely voters. In these models, the president usually does better with likely voters, the figure most news organizations emphasize. To get to likely voters, all polling organizations use what is called a "screen," asking questions to determine who is likely to actually turn out on election day.

These screens differ greatly, as there is no consensus among experts on what works best. "This is an art, not a science," says Peter Hart, the prominent Democratic polltaker who has helped conduct The Wall Street Journal/NBC News survey for 15 years.

10040. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:29:06 PM

This controversy will be fueled by today's just-released Gallup poll that shows George Bush with a 13-point lead over John Kerry. That is at variance with other surveys this week, which suggest a tight race with a much smaller Bush tilt. But the likely voters margin also is considerably larger than the eight-point advantage in Gallup's registered voters in this survey. The likely voters match-up invariably gets more attention.

10041. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:29:42 PM

Gallup explains it has what it considers a time-tested formula for determining most likely voters. It asks eight questions, such as current intensity of interest, past voting behavior and interest, and whether you know where your voting place is.

"We've discovered that if we ask a set of more indirect questions, we can better predict who is or is not likely to vote," Frank Newport, editor in chief of the Gallup Poll, has said.

But there is reason to suspect those criteria are outdated, especially in an election where both sides say the intensity level is much higher than four years ago and get-out-the-vote organizations are considerably better than ever -- few people on Nov. 2 will be in the dark on where the voting polls are.

10042. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:30:06 PM

"A formula that made sense years ago may not recognize all the changes in society," notes Mr. Hart. "It gives more credence to past behavior and too little to current interest."

10043. thoughtful - 9/16/2004 6:30:45 PM

joe biden was on imus this a.m. and charles mccord told imus he's totally mad at biden for not running for the presidency.

he easily topped kerry's appearance on the show. Biden spelled out what the bushies aren't doing in iraq, what they need to be doing in iraq, and what he learned when he went there simply by listening to the military guys on the ground as to what has been working, what hasn't, and what they need to get the job done. He said the military guys showed him charts of how in areas where they have made significant improvement in peoples lives like getting rid of the trash and the 2' of sewage running through the streets, they aren't getting shot at....where they haven't, they're still getting shot at. They know what works, but they can't implement it because they are so understaffed and underfunded.

Biden said they need to train a LOT more iraqis to be policemen and even this far into it, they have not fully trained even ONE iraqi! He said he voted to authorize their spending billions of dollars in iraq...what would easily be the largest jobs program ever...get these people off the streets and gainfully employed improving their lives and the lives of their families...and instead the money is just sitting there. The administration and management of this venture is so poor that nothing that needs to happen is happening.

biden said he voted to authorize the pres for war, but had he known then what he knows now, he never would have....not from the yes/no WMD pov, but because he would never have guessed that the bushies would run such a totally incompetent operation. They have flubbed the operation in just about every way possible.

Let's hope biden talks to kerry and gets him up to snuff on this stuff. it's very powerful.

10044. thoughtful - 9/16/2004 6:30:58 PM

toys!

10045. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:34:40 PM

"For low-turnout elections those old models work well," suggests Bill McInturff, a Republican, and the other WSJ/NBC News pollster. "But in today's presidential election those models tend to [tilt to] a little older, a little more white, a little more affluent and a little more Republican voters. They may miss some of the extraordinary activity going on in African-American and Latino communities."



The registered-likely voters dichotomy also is evident in some of Gallup's state surveys including last week's Ohio results." Among registered voters in the Buckeye State, Bush-Cheney had a 48%-to- 47% edge, a dead heat. Among likely voters, however, this poll had the Republicans up 52%-44%; that garnered all the attention, followed by a spate of stories suggesting this key battleground state was moving to the president.

Curiously, the Gallup poll in the similar state of Pennsylvania at the same time showed a virtually even race among both registered and likely voters. And occasionally, the screen favors the Democrats; a Marist survey this week of New York state showed Sen. Kerry 11 points ahead among likely voters, but only seven points ahead among registered voters.

But most of the time the screen for likely voters tilts Republican. In 2000, Gallup's election eve survey showed George Bush ahead by two points among its likely voters; he trailed Al Gore by a point among registered voters, very close to the final outcome.

In 2000, the next to last WSJ/NBC poll before the election showed Republicans doing three points better among likely voters than registered voters. The election eve survey showed Bush up three points among likely voters, but failed to tally registered voters and didn't predict Al Gore's victory in the popular vote.

10046. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 6:34:42 PM

If it hadn't been for Chappaquiddick, Kennedy might well have been President.

10047. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:34:51 PM

The Wall Street Journal and NBC News have settled on one question to screen likely turnout. Registered voters are asked their interest level in the election on a scale of 1-10, and those that respond 9 or 10 are considered likely voters.

Both camps expect an increase in the 105 million Americans who voted last time; the Bush camp looks for about 111-112 million while the Kerry campaign projects 116-118 million; nobody can be sure exactly who those additional voters might be.

The probable outlook: Polls will vary and conflict if this race remains tight. Also, poll watchers must remember that the best survey has a three or four-point margin of error; that means if it shows the race even, one or the other candidate actually could be up by a half-dozen. Here's a final guide: if almost all the election eve polls show one candidate up four or five points or more, take it to the bank. But if most show the race within a couple of points, plan on staying up late election night.


For detail on how the Gallup Poll is the most fucked up outlier of the 2004 race see This statistical analyis and history of all major polls this year.

And Teixeira's exchange with Frank Newport of Gallup

10048. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:35:55 PM

Sorry I probably should have done the WSJ post in Lies.but it is too TRUE

10049. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:37:12 PM

toys

10050. jexster - 9/16/2004 6:38:03 PM

and IraQ, thanks to GWB is FUBAR, thoughtful

10051. thoughtful - 9/16/2004 6:53:46 PM

No transcript that I can find, but here's a quote:

September 17, 2004
Imus: "If you knew what you know now, would you have voted to authorize the President to go to war?"

Senator Joe Biden: "If I had known how incompetent they would be, no one could have imagined they would be this incompetent. If I had know that, I would have never given this man the authority. Never given this man the authority."

10052. OhioSTOPAS - 9/16/2004 7:19:51 PM

In Message # 10028, "concerned" posts a picture that purports to show a Kerry-supporting union member (i.e., according to the official right-wing talk radio glossary, a "thug") ripping up a Bush-Cheney sign belonging to Bush supporter Phil Parlock. This picture was posted on Drudge, and this bad behavior was a main topic on Columbus talk radio (namely, Rush/Hannity wannabe Glenn Beck) this morning.

Well, here's more about the unfortunate Mr. Parlock.

It seems the poor Mr. P gets roughed up by Democrat thugs every election year! What a coincidence. Yes, what a coincidence. I guess it's a case of bad things happening to good Freeple.

10053. OhioSTOPAS - 9/16/2004 7:49:38 PM

"Burning of villages. Chopping off ears and limbs. These are things that John Kerry has admitted to. Aren't these things worse than missing a physical?"

An exact quote (as best I can remember it) from Rush Limbaugh, just now (actually, just an hour ago, since Columbus gets the lying blowhard on an hour delay).

Kerry, of course, did not chop off anything, nor did he say that he did (or, for that matter, that he ever even personally witnessed such a thing). What a lying bastard Limbaugh is.

And do the Republicans really want to go down the road of arguing that, because of the bad things people have to do in war (such as burning an UNOCCUPIED dwelling), serving in Vietnam is morally inferior to avoiding service? Bring it on.

10054. thoughtful - 9/16/2004 8:43:54 PM

Wasn't rush the same guy who said the abu graib was just "boys being boys" and "frat house pranks"? and rummy saying the post-invasion rioting and looting was just "letting off steam"?

10055. judithathome - 9/16/2004 8:45:45 PM

The brother of that little girl tore up the sign himself. It's all staged. More "rightist" BS.

10056. jexster - 9/16/2004 8:49:48 PM

I LOVE the Economist (US editors)

Today, the Economist released a new YouGov poll, which employs online technology developed by a British survey firm, and found Bush ahead of Kerry by a single point, 47 to 46. To the magazine's editors this represents an "impressive" result for Bush because more than 56 percent of the voters polled by YouGov say they are "dissatisfied with the way things are going in the United States at this time."

10057. jexster - 9/16/2004 8:55:06 PM

10051...

ShitTalk!


Biden KNEW full well that Bush was lying and that Bush didn't know what the fuck he was doing in IraQ.

So did Kerry and while the latter is a matter of reported fact, the former was quite obvious to me at the time.

Biden in August of 2002 as Chairman of the Foreign Relations committee held hearings the clear purpose of which was to lay the groundwork for the very case he claims now to have just awakened to.

Pissed me off then...Pisses me now for it was clear at the time Bush started his warmongering in earnest that he could not be trusted either to tell the truth or to lead a war competently

10058. jexster - 9/16/2004 8:56:06 PM

AND THAT, unlike TD's vile deceit and revisionism, is a matter of Mote Archival Record.

10059. jexster - 9/16/2004 9:01:30 PM

Sharon Flips off the Moron, Repudiates Roadmap

The proper question is not how many world leaders want Kerry in the WH but how many hold the current pretender in utter contempt

10060. jexster - 9/16/2004 9:09:01 PM

Do As I Say
Bush lets down his Guard
By William Saletan

This week, President Bush and Sen. John Kerry addressed the annual conference of the National Guard Association. Neither man talked about Bush's service in the Guard, and the officers in attendance made clear that they wanted to hear about Iraq, not Vietnam. But one issue leads to the other. Bush's abuse of the Guard in Iraq is what makes his abuse of the Guard during Vietnam an important consideration in this election

10061. jexster - 9/16/2004 9:11:49 PM

Four years into his six-year commitment, Bush "changed his mind" and decided "he preferred to be in politics." That description doesn't come from some phony memo. It comes from retired Col. Rufus Martin, Bush's then-personnel officer, in an interview with the Washington Post. Bush got permission to go to Alabama to help a family friend run for the Senate. A Boston Globe review of Bush's Guard records confirms that he "performed no service for one six-month period in 1972 and for another period of almost three months in 1973." The Globe's investigative team, echoing investigators from other publications, reports that "no one has come forward with any credible recollection of having witnessed Bush performing guard service in Alabama or after he returned to Houston in 1973."

U.S. News & World Report notes that the "military service obligation" Bush signed in 1968 required him to attend 44 inactive-duty training drills every fiscal year for six years. He did not fulfill that requirement. Furthermore, when Bush took off for Harvard Business School in 1973, he signed a form pledging "to locate and be assigned to another Reserve forces unit or mobilization augmentation position." He never did so.




GWB lied in 1968 and he is still lying today...

When did you take it up TD?

10062. jexster - 9/16/2004 9:25:50 PM

Bush Fails Again
UN Rejects Tighter Inspection of IraNIAN Nuclear Program

That's IraN TD, not IraQ

Maybe this ROADMAP will help

10063. judithathome - 9/16/2004 9:36:33 PM

Judge Orders Release of ALL Bush Guard Records

A federal judge has ordered the Pentagon to find and make public by next week any unreleased files about President Bush's Vietnam-era Air National Guard service to resolve a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by The Associated Press.

U.S. District Judge Harold Baer Jr. handed down the order late Wednesday in New York. The AP lawsuit already has led to the disclosure of previously unreleased flight logs from Bush's days piloting F-102A fighters and other jets.

Pentagon officials told Baer they plan to have their search complete by Monday. Baer ordered the Pentagon to hand over the records to the AP by Sept. 24 and provide a written statement by Sept. 29 detailing the search for more records.

10064. Magoseph - 9/16/2004 9:44:28 PM

Con, my post was just a reflexion of the absurdities of today, such as Bush holding Clinton responsible for the deficit he has managed to run up.

10065. judithathome - 9/16/2004 9:45:34 PM

Oh, Mags, didn't you know? Clinton is even responsible for all these hurricanes.

10066. jexster - 9/16/2004 9:46:10 PM

Bush Has Bungled WOT - Senior CIA Officer

WASHINGTON - A senior CIA (news - web sites) officer says bad decisions, understaffing and infighting among intelligence agencies stifled efforts to stop Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) and his network. More than three years after the Sept. 11 attacks, the agency remains short-staffed, he says.



In an unusually critical campaign for a government employee, Mike Scheuer has spent much of the last three months publicly criticizing his agency. Most government officials wait until they retire, as former National Security Council aide Richard Clarke did.


In July, Scheuer, head of the CIA's bin Laden unit until 1999, published his best-selling book "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror." Then, he was only identified as "Anonymous."


Last week, Scheuer sent the Senate Intelligence Committee a six-page letter accusing senior career civil servants of failing to ensure the "optimal performance" of the U.S. intelligence community and of missing opportunities to stop bin Laden's al-Qaida terrorist group and prevent the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks

10067. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:04:14 PM

Drudge is the toxic waste dump for GOP lies.

10068. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:06:37 PM

With the election of George Bush, the Angry White Male has reasserted and reestablished himself as a member of the privileged underprivileged class, waking up with a fart after a half decade of hibernation.

iiibbb, are you a "white angry?"

10069. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:10:25 PM

Re. 10055 -

JAH -

Been drinking DU Kook-Aid again, I see. That's no family relation - she was assaulted by a 'Rat Union thug.

10070. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:11:31 PM

Re. 10063 -

So maybe there are no unreleased files, apparently.

10071. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:12:03 PM

Bill O'Reilly, chronic cry-baby. He's the Angry White Male's Angry White Male, master of a thousand tirades and a single throwaway look of disgust....he postures as a Lone Ranger versus "the elites," distributing his own version of frontier justice...

Sean Hannity--everything evacuating from his mouth sounds as if it were dictated by somebody else, somebody tapping the talking points right into his toy brain. Sean Hannity is an ideal mouthpiece for Fox News because he's the simulacrum of Fox News's ideal viewer: the middle-aged white man with the refillable, flip-=top head who's told what to think and repeats what he's been told in a brash voice, convinced that he thunk it up himself.

Attack Poodles
James Wolcott

10072. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:12:43 PM

C'mon, Wonk. Everybody knows that its Democrats who tote the most guns and use them the most, too. Unfortunately, on each other.

10073. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:13:02 PM

iiibbb, concerned, are you perchance fans of O'Reilly and Hannity??

10074. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:13:25 PM

No. Are you?

10075. thoughtful - 9/16/2004 10:15:42 PM

Of course, all the polls and all the votes mean squat when you have Katharine Harris redux, known as Glenda Hood, on your side.


In Florida's 2000 election mess, Katherine Harris served simultaneously as Florida's secretary of state and as co-chairwoman of the state's Bush-Cheney campaign committee. In her official capacity, she repeatedly took actions that favored the campaign. This year has turned out to be more of the same. When Gov. Jeb Bush appointed Ms. Hood as secretary of state, he chose someone with a history of partisanship, as a Republican officeholder and as a Bush-Cheney elector in 2000. Now Ms. Hood's politics appear to be influencing her election duties.

She recently conducted a highly suspect voting-roll purge of felons. The voters who were to be taken off the list included more than 22,000 African-Americans, who generally vote heavily Democratic, but just 61 Hispanics, who tend to favor Republicans in Florida. She was forced to scrap the list.

In last month's primary, some people without photo identification were turned away without being told that they could vote if they signed affidavits affirming their identities. After the same thing happened in South Dakota this year, the Board of Elections there told every polling place to post signs advising people of their rights. Ms. Hood's office insists that voters need not be told of the affidavit option. Voter ID is often a partisan issue because poor people and members of other groups that are less likely to have identification often vote Democratic.

Most recently, Ms. Hood has played a suspect role in helping Mr. Nader get on Florida's ballot, where he would be likely to weaken John Kerry. A court has ruled against Mr. Nader's claim to have met the requirements to be on the ballot.

10076. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:15:58 PM

If Democrats would only learn how to do a half decent job of obeying our criminal statutes, we wouldn't have a firearms problem.

10077. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:17:34 PM

Not hardly. I prefer Koppel, Lehrer, Brokaw and Rather and, of course, my fellow Louisanian, James Carville.

10078. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:17:42 PM

I can state with confidence that nobody on the Mote owns fewer operable firearms than I do. Unless you count a BB gun, that is.

10079. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:18:46 PM

Re. 10077 -

Rather? So you're into partisan forgery, slander and libel, then.

10080. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:19:58 PM

Only girlymen Democrats own firearms.

10081. judithathome - 9/16/2004 10:24:50 PM

Concerned...go to this link and read the truth starting at "Coinkydinks". Don't miss the pictures, which are worth a thousand words.

Coinkydinks

There's this guy. He's a Republican. Amazingly, for the past three presidential elections he's managed to convince reporters that he's gotten attacked and gotten his signs stolen and destroyed. What are the odds?

10082. judithathome - 9/16/2004 10:27:24 PM

can state with confidence that nobody on the Mote owns fewer operable firearms than I do. Unless you count a BB gun, that is.

I don't own any guns at all, not even toys. The closest thing to a gun I have is a Bic lighter with a trigger and long nozzle for lighting candles.

10083. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:28:00 PM

Fox's Special Report--is so claustrophobically right-wing that anyone who appears regularly on the panel contracts a slow-progressing case of Stockholm Syndrome. Juan Williams and Mara Liasson, for example.

Poor Juan, he begins to wobble, unsure of himself, trapped in enemy territory and suffering Hamlet indecision. "The war was a bad idea--but we can't pull out, can we?--drilling in Alaska--it's gotta be bad for the caribou or whatever's up there--but these conservatives make a lotta sense--I can't see me driving a solar car anytime soon--oh God now they're going to bring up partial birth abortion--I guess I'm against that but I'm also for a woman's right to choose--I wish the other guys would stop glaring--Brit looks like he's about to snap at me again, and Fred--Fred's snickering again--Fred's always snickering at me!--someday I'm going to stuff those snickers back down his throat!"

Then, his eardrums beating from the pressure of the voices inside his head that won't leave him alone, Juan often concedes the argument but shakes his head to show he's not fully convinced, his way of salvaging some scrap of dignity...

Attack Poodles
James Wolcott

10084. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:28:14 PM

What's the link to - a porn site? My company firewall will not connect to it. Why are you always so eager to believe fact free innuendo and smears, anyway, JAH?

10085. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:30:17 PM

Michael Savage--he brought nothing to the broadcast table except garlic breath.

Attack Poodles

10086. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:31:31 PM

Ann Coulter--appears frequently enough on MSNBC to warrant her own dressing room and bikini waxer.

Attack Poodles

10087. wonkers2 - 9/16/2004 10:33:34 PM

Arnold Schwarzenegger--crowd-pleasing, self-parodying cyborg (who in his bodybuilding prime resembled, as Clive James immortally observed, a fistfull of walnuts stuffed in a condom)...

Attack Poodles

10088. concerned - 9/16/2004 10:34:16 PM

I can probably get a way carrying a Republican placard in a Democrat crowd without being attacked - but only because I'm 6' 6" 265 with no extra fat.

10089. judithathome - 9/16/2004 10:40:33 PM

What's the link to - a porn site?

No, it is a link to the blog called Eschaton by Atrios. I don't believe your worksite has a firewall against the truth; I think you are just saying that because you don't want to admit I was right. Not that you'd believe it...your head is too full of right wing BS for any truth to squeeze its way inside.

Those people are scam artists. The picture from Drudge shows a young man standing next to the fraud daddy, with part of the torn sign in his hands, and in another picture there ther same young man is in a group photo with his nine brothers and sisters and their fraud daddy.

So don't tell me I'm the one believeing innuendo and lies...you are just like other Republicans in that regard, accusing people of doing the very thing you are doing.

10090. jexster - 9/16/2004 11:01:33 PM

Words and excuses meet incompetence, chaos and death
That's what this election is about.



Couldn't have said it better myself...


Why, as a matter of fact and come to think of it, I DID say it myself...last August

10091. Magoseph - 9/17/2004 12:15:26 AM

Here is the link that didn't work on your computer, Con:
Serial Republican Victim complains for the THIRD straight presidential election of being assaulted and has his family assist.

10092. Magoseph - 9/17/2004 12:24:17 AM

C'mon, Wonk. Everybody knows that its Democrats who tote the most guns and use them the most, too. Unfortunately, on each other.

If Democrats would only learn how to do a half decent job of obeying our criminal statutes, we wouldn't have a firearms problem.

Look, Con, everybody knows everybody here. You don't have to say that Democrats are the ones who are killing each other. You should say what you mean--the Blacks have all the guns and they are killing each other in the cities.

The fact is, however, the real gun-worshippers are the rednecks in the country. The people in the cities carry guns as a necessity. The rednecks are gun-lovers, dog-lovers, horse-lovers, and women haters.

10093. clydefo - 9/17/2004 12:41:31 AM

Florida SC has put Nader on the ballot (CNN), not that it matters much in the new age of electronically rigged elections.

10094. thoughtful - 9/17/2004 12:45:56 AM

hey wait a minute.
we have guns
we don't hate women
in fact, i view my little handy dandy snub-nose .38 as a woman's best friend...my equalizer and I have to admit, i'm pretty good with the darned thing.
tho' not as good as hubby. he's excellent with guns. from hunting squirrels as a boy to varsity rifle team in university right through his ROTC/army days (which he served during the vietnam war and did not shirk his duties or pull strings or go awol) and 16 years as a police special. Cool eye and steady hand, that one.

10095. concerned - 9/17/2004 1:26:39 AM

Re. 10089 -

Whether it's a porn site or something that calls itself 'eschaton', the company firewall wouldn't link to it, & that's the truth, whether you're allergic to it or not, JAH. Unlike you, apparently, I work for a living, and tried to use your link from work. I'm at work at this moment, for that matter.

Such links are blocked by this firewall usually because the these sites have questionable content.

10096. concerned - 9/17/2004 1:28:37 AM

Re. 10092 -

Magoseph - are you saying blacks don't qualify as real Democrats or what?

So now I know you despise 'rednecks' and don't think much of blacks either.

10097. jexster - 9/17/2004 1:28:57 AM

W. Stands for "Weak"

Ever wonder why the president's steely-eyed determination(!) to pre-emptively attack challenges to America doesn't extend to non-defense issues?

Looks like Tony Blair has wondered that too, as reflected in a very clever speech on global climate change that uses the same calculus of risk applied to the decision to invade Iraq.

He doesn't mention Bush by name, but makes a pretty good indirect case that W. is a weasely, flip-flopping defeatist who's made the U.S. the France of environmental policy.

10098. jexster - 9/17/2004 1:30:30 AM

Rednecks bother me too TD..

I am happy you're black

10099. concerned - 9/17/2004 1:35:25 AM

I don't know where Magoseph's 'worshipping guns' comment comes from, particularly since two of the countries that have the highest gun ownership rates, Switzerland and Israel, have firearms crime rates that are a minor fraction of the US's.

10100. arkymalarky - 9/17/2004 1:36:09 AM

If Democrats would only learn how to do a half decent job of obeying our criminal statutes, we wouldn't have a firearms problem.

Hahaha! You mean if we'd only learn how to get our butts out of trouble when we violate them like our president.

Wait. That takes lots of money and power and influence.

Never mind.

10101. concerned - 9/17/2004 1:36:21 AM

I'm part Black Irish, anyway, and that is likely part Moorish which is African.

10102. jexster - 9/17/2004 1:36:57 AM

Bush on Iraq: Who you gonna believe? Me, or your lyin' eyes?

Heed Allawi, Bush urges US


Not the US National Intelligence Estimate, not the Royal British institute, not virtually everyone who knows anything about IraQ, an ex-Baathist assassin

10103. jexster - 9/17/2004 1:38:04 AM

Black Irish.

Your neck red?

10104. arkymalarky - 9/17/2004 1:39:55 AM

Gun control is irrelevant in this election. Bush's position on the ban is the same as Kerry's.

10105. thoughtful - 9/17/2004 1:41:44 AM

10100...arky! Good one!

10106. arkymalarky - 9/17/2004 1:43:15 AM

The most important issues are the ones Bush has the most control over. That people aren't scared to death to cast a vote for him based on those is stunning to me. Go from four years ago to now and following the same trajectory take yourself forward four years.

Unreal that most people would even consider it. Kerry couldn't do that much damage in four years, even if he doesn't set the world on fire with his policies.

10107. arkymalarky - 9/17/2004 1:44:07 AM

Thanks Thoughtful!

10108. clydefo - 9/17/2004 2:33:00 AM

It was good to see former weapons inspector Scott Ritter on Paula Zhan's show. I was afraid they had disappeared him. One of the few that, before the war, accurately predicted that there would be no WMD in Iraq. He said that the current top weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, is preparing a Bush whitewash in his upcoming report. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/17/politics/17intel.html.
Ritter has consistently called it right. I hope he is wrong in his other pre-war prediction that the US will leave Iraq tail between legs.

10109. jexster - 9/17/2004 3:00:40 AM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon (news - web sites) on Friday released {STILL} more documents on President Bush (news - web sites)'s Vietnam-era Air National Guard Service, including a letter from his then-congressman father George Bush (news - web sites) thanking a general for "taking interest in a brand new Air Force trainee."

That Child of Privilege, That Fortunate Son

10110. jexster - 9/17/2004 3:07:33 AM

Damn Clyde TD said he was a paid agent of Saddam

Ritter is not right this time...

Helicopter skids is more likely that is the hard truth about IraQ..

That is also the Regis Debray scenario and that is what is unfolding before our lying eyes.


This idiot son of privilege, this fortunate son.

10111. jexster - 9/17/2004 3:10:12 AM

Oh no it isn't irrelevant Arky, that's the SOP of the Politics of Putrescence...

The Bush "compassionate conservative" shuck n jive....

This is the same Bush who said Kerry served galantly while paying those Charles "Dirty Tricks" Colson hacks to say Kerry was a coward and a liar who injured himself to get out of Vietnam

10112. jexster - 9/17/2004 3:10:51 AM

REMEMBER ARKY...no sane person of integrity can believe ANYTHING GWB says

10113. jexster - 9/17/2004 3:15:47 AM

I mean look at all the embarrassment, the humiliations poor TD has suffered over the past four years!

Don't be concerned with GWB's slogans and spin, lest you suffer the same, sad fate

10114. jexster - 9/17/2004 3:30:42 AM

It started on DAY 1 of the Residency with China when Bush's hot talk met the real world walk..I am speaking of course of the Shame of the Plane..

Then we moved quickly to Enron...moved quickly away when it became clear that Enron, under cover of B/C cronyism, had in fact rigged CALI electricity markets


And who can forget National Missle Defense....it still doesn't work..four years, billions, and it still doesn't work



Missile Defense: Mission Unaccomplished
When will Bush stop throwing billions at a failing project?

Of course, it is all the fault of the French with an assist from the Hun

Forget Bush, why would any sane person of integrity when it comes to TD, not do what I do...

Chuckle

10115. jexster - 9/17/2004 3:44:39 AM

It's curious that on the campaign trail George W. Bush has boasted of many accomplishments, whether real or imaginary, but the missile-defense program has almost never been among them. This is no small point. Bush pushed missile defense as a major issue in the 2000 election. From the start of his presidency, he made it one of his top priorities. He revoked the 1972 Anti-Ballistic-Missile Treaty in order to pursue the program at full throttle. He tripled its budget ($10.7 billion this year alone, more than twice as much as for any other weapon system). He demanded that the Pentagon start fielding the system by the fall of 2004—that is, before the coming election—and indeed, last July, the first antimissile missile was lowered into its silo, a second is now in place, and eight more are scheduled to follow in the next few weeks.

10116. jexster - 9/17/2004 4:10:58 AM

Ruy Teixeira has Deconstructed the Gallup Poll that TD's been yapping about (THAT last, considering his 4 year track record, the best news the Kerry campaign has had all year!)


September 17, 2004

Gallup Strikes Again!

Here are Bush's leads in the three national polls released before Gallup's current poll (no RV data available for DCorps and Harris; Pew and Harris matchups include Nader):

Democracy Corps, September 12-14 RVs: +1
Pew Research Center, September 11-14 RVs: tied
Harris Interactive: September 9-13 LVs: -1

Looks like a tie ball game, right? But according to the Gallup poll conducted September 13-15 and released today, Bush is up......13???

Let's just say I'm just a wee bit skeptical of this one. First, Gallup's poll only includes one day (the 15th) these three other polls do not, so it can't be Gallup's survey dates that explain the big Bush lead.

Second, this 13 point lead is an LV figure and, as I've repeatedly emphasized, Gallup's LV screening procedure produces completely untrustworthy measures of voter sentiment this far in advance of the election. Here is a summary of the case against Gallup's LV data:

....

Throwing out the Gallup LV data, then, let's move on to their RV result: an 8 point Bush lead. Obviously pretty far off the results of the other contemporaneous polls summarized above....

But then there's this: the Gallup internals show Kerry with a 7 point lead among independent RVs. Huh? Kerry's losing by 8 points overall, yet leading among independents by 7. How is that possible? Only if there are substantially more Republicans than Democrats in the sample....

10117. concerned - 9/19/2004 12:30:55 AM

Re. 10103 -

Not as red as yours, at any rate.

10118. concerned - 9/19/2004 1:16:13 AM

Question: “HOW DO YOU ASK A MAN TO BE THE LAST MAN TO DIE?”

Answer: Mr. Rather, will you be so kind as to fall on your sword for Kerry regarding Memogate?

10119. judithathome - 9/19/2004 3:55:05 AM

Unlike you, apparently, I work for a living,

Unlike you, apparently, I am old enough to be retired.

10120. judithathome - 9/19/2004 4:37:25 AM

Blogger Who Faulted CBS Documents Is Conservative Activist

...Operating as "Buckhead," which is also the name of an upscale Atlanta neighborhood, MacDougald wrote that the memos that CBS' "60 Minutes" presented on Sept. 8 as being written in the early 1970s by the late Lt. Col Jerry B. Killian were "in a proportionally spaced font, probably Palatino or Times New Roman."

"The use of proportionally spaced fonts did not come into common use for office memos until the introduction of laser printers, word processing software, and personal computers," MacDougald wrote on the freerepublic website. "They were not widespread until the mid to late 90's. Before then, you needed typesetting equipment, and that wasn't used for personal memos to file. Even the Wang systems that were dominant in the mid 80's used monospaced fonts.

"I am saying these documents are forgeries, run through a copier for 15 generations to make them look old. This should be pursued aggressively."

The Sept. 8 late-night posting — written less than four hours after the CBS report was aired — resulted in a flurry of sympathetic testimonials from fellow bloggers, spreading within hours to other sites. The next day, major newspapers such as The Times and the Washington Post began consulting forensic experts and reporting stories that raised similar questions.

Wow. Four hours. And the documents were only flashed on the screen for about 30 seconds each, if that long. This guy certainly has an eagle eye and very specific knowledge of old typewriters and their capabilities. And evidently, of how to forge documents.

Wonder how he came by all this expertise?

10121. judithathome - 9/19/2004 4:41:54 AM

Oh, I hope you read to the very end of that articel where you will see this little gem:

"When he's not absorbed with work, I think he spends the rest of his life in the wee hours of the morning on freerepublic," Hogue added. "And that's the outlet through which he shares his concerns and insights, and so rather than being a matter of conspiracy, it's just him doing what he does."

This is probably where Concerned gets his ideas.

10122. judithathome - 9/19/2004 9:54:24 AM

Well, I just learned CBS put the documents up on their website pretty swiftly so I stand corrected on the 10 seconds comment. Guess I'm too used to CNN which takes half a day to get stuff up.

10123. jexster - 9/19/2004 2:52:14 PM

Who are you gonna believe TD, GWB or your lyin eyes?


This race is coming down to IraQ...
Lies have Consequences

Allah be praised!

WMD Investigation by Once-Confident Expert Reveals 'Less than Little' Evidence

"In the tense months before war in Iraq, Charles Duelfer was confident. 'Of course [Saddam] is developing his weapons of mass destruction.' Now the results of a Duelfer-led investigation are telling a very different tale... After 16 months of trying, what [Duelfer's] teams have found is less than little. In fact, the only unconventional weapon turned up in Iraq wasn't turned up by the Americans at all, but by the other side, Iraq's shadowy resistance. In May, in an incident causing no serious injuries, insurgent fighters in Baghdad rigged an old artillery shell as a roadside bomb, apparently unaware it was loaded with sarin nerve agent.

Otherwise, two or three stray shells have been discovered with traces of degraded agent - far short of the 100-500 tons of usable chemical weapons that Colin Powell warned of on Feb. 5, 2003."

Joe Klein today in Time: "Scott McClellan is beginning to sound like Baghdad Bob."

10124. jexster - 9/19/2004 3:18:45 PM

Grieving Mother of Soldier Killed in Iraq Arrested to Protect Laura Bush from 'Unpleasantness'

"A woman wearing a T-shirt with the words 'President Bush You Killed My Son' and a picture of a soldier killed in Iraq was detained [SHE WAS ARRESTED!] Thursday after she interrupted a campaign speech by first lady Laura Bush. Police escorted Sue Niederer, of Hopewell, N.J., from a rally at a firehouse after she demanded to know why her son, Army 1st Lt. Seth Dvorin, 24, was killed in Iraq. Dvorin died in February while trying to disarm a bomb. As shouts of 'Four More Years' subsided, Niederer, standing in the middle of a crowd of some 700, continued to shout about the killing of her son. Local police escorted her from the event, handcuffed her and put her in the back of a police van. Niederer was later charged with defiant trespass and released. "

10125. robertjayb - 9/19/2004 3:39:47 PM

Once upon s time when this was a free country such women were honored as Gold Star Mothers.

10126. jexster - 9/19/2004 5:22:25 PM

The Bush Administration, through ineptness and a vague ideology of American power that acknowledges no limits on its global ambitions, and a preference for unilateralist initiatives and adventurism which discounts consultations with its friends much less the United Nations, has seriously eroded the alliance system upon which U. S. foreign policy from 1947 onwards was based.

10127. jexster - 9/19/2004 5:50:23 PM

Yes, Robert, funny how Mo Dowd used that same line...

You don't live in Tejas, do ya?...probably somewhere around Hoboken

Take a close look"
60 second TV spot

"My name is Sue Niederer and this message is for George W. Bush. Take a close look at this soldier Mr. Bush. He was a lieutenant in the US Army. Unlike you, he chose to serve his country bravely in time of war. On February 3rd he was needlessly killed in combat in Iraq. Take a close look at this face, Mr. Bush… this is the price of your foolish adventure in Iraq. His name was Seth Dvorin, and he was my son."

Had it with George W. Bush?
Help sponsor a message like this one.

10128. jayackroyd - 9/19/2004 6:00:05 PM

Jex--

Dontcha think that some of this traffic belongs in Lies? That thread has stayed active, with multiple participants, so I think it's worked out. People who want to see your links can see them there, and this thread can be used for broader commentary.

10129. jexster - 9/19/2004 6:06:53 PM

No this is especially timely inasmuch as

a) it is directly about the election

b) responsive to Robert's

and

c) provides background to Mo Dowd's column this morning...

We've already met Mrs. Niederer's her dead son Seth in Lies so I will not do that one here except to say that he married his Rutgers college sweetheart, Kelly Harris, a week before his Sept. 2 deployment.

10130. jexster - 9/19/2004 6:31:25 PM

In my haste I neglected to reflect upon 10126 which is clearly beyond the resident Busheviks and belongs in Lies where the intelligent and the pure meet to discuss the disaster-in-process that is GWB, that son of privilege, that cowardly fortunate son

I just love the way the voice over spits out that line...

TWICE

10131. jexster - 9/20/2004 6:53:05 AM

ROME (Reuters) - Britain's ambassador to Italy has called President Bush (news - web sites) "the best recruiting sergeant" for al Qaeda, Italian media reported Monday

10132. concerned - 9/20/2004 7:25:39 AM

Witless & Wizdum from Senator Gigolo:

"The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country."
- John F. Kerry

10133. concerned - 9/20/2004 7:27:10 AM

Re. 10035 -

'Convincingly' doesn't cut it. It has to be true, and most of Kitty Kelly's 'dirt' on the Bushes has been discredited.

10134. Wombat - 9/20/2004 7:41:32 AM

Today's New York Times reviews the gaps and errors in George W. Bush's fulfillment of his National Guard service obligation. It is a good piece, the kind that one expects from the New York Times. Too bad most of the story was published in Salon weeks ago.

It amazes me that today's National Guard can give any credence to what this slacker of a president tells them.

10135. Wombat - 9/20/2004 7:44:48 AM

Equally amazing is Concerned's new-found skepticism on revelations of presidential peccadillos by dubious sources.

10136. judithathome - 9/20/2004 7:47:45 AM

It amazes me that today's National Guard can give any credence to what this slacker of a president tells them.

It amazes me that anyone can give credence to what he says. Concerned quotes a muffed remark by Kerry above but he blithely disregards about a thousand of mangled remarks made by Bush over the years. Books full of 'em and he can only cite Kerry's little slip of the tongue.

10137. concerned - 9/20/2004 7:51:55 AM

No slacker George W. Bush, and any at least semi-knowledgable person well knows that.

GWB applied for F-102 service in Vietnam but was turned down

Of the four pilots I spoke to who flew with Bush in the Texas days, Fred Bradley knew him best. They had met before going off to the year-long ordeal of pilot school, and entered the 111th at about the same time. Both were junior lieutenants without a lot of flying experience. But the inexperience didn't prevent Bush — along with Bradley — from going to their squadron leaders to see if they could get into a program called "Palace Alert." "There were four of us lieutenants at the time, and we were all fairly close. Two of them had more flight time than the president and me, said Bradley." All four volunteered for Vietnam (Bradley doesn't remember whether he and Bush actually signed paperwork, but he specifically remembers both Bush and himself trying to get into the Palace Alert Vietnam program.) Bush and Bradley were turned away, and the two more senior pilots went to Vietnam.

10138. jexster - 9/20/2004 7:52:30 AM

Ruy Teixeira, quoted approvingly in the WSJ makes the case that Gallup and CBS polls show race tied...

That won't be for long..Kerry's delivering a major IraQ speech in 15 minutes

Live on CNN

10139. concerned - 9/20/2004 7:53:43 AM

JAH -

Here's another Sen. Gigolo goof for your edification:

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."

10140. concerned - 9/20/2004 7:55:55 AM

JAH -

You're easily amazed, and by all the wrong things, I might add.

10141. jexster - 9/20/2004 7:58:47 AM

The British Ambassador also said that Al Qaeda wants Bush elected

He said it in confidence, in the confidence of a meeting with his Berlusconi Proto fascist buds!!!

And is it any wonder with such "INCOMPETENCE"?

Those are McCain's words now too!

Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim of a hat."—Washington, D.C., Sept. 17, 2004

10142. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:00:09 AM

Still how can the Capon In Chief EVER top this..

and he won't have much longer to try...

"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB/GYN's aren't able to practice their love with women all across the country."—Sept. 6, 2004, Poplar Bluff, Mo.

10143. concerned - 9/20/2004 8:00:36 AM

Ex-pilot says Bush put in for Vietnam

Bush volunteered for combat, was rejected, ex-guardsman says

According to Campenni, Bush inquired about participating in a volunteer program called Palace Alert that used Air National Guard pilots flying in the F-102 Delta Dagger interceptor jet in Vietnam.

The Air Guard advised Bush he did not have the desired 500 hours of flight time as a pilot to qualify for Palace Alert duty, and, in any event, the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers.

Here we have two unimpeachable sources saying that George W. Bush tried to serve in Vietnam. Guess all you pinheads calling GWB a slacker are fucked.

10144. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:01:52 AM

That son of privilege that fortunate son...

The first of what will be the knockout sequence of blows is now on CNN

10145. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:02:56 AM

The TANG never went to Vietnam TD...but you keep talking about Vietnam because THAT is what Bush finally has volunteered for in IraQ...

10146. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:03:31 AM

He was grounded because he was high..someone should have grounded him four years ago

10147. concerned - 9/20/2004 8:04:42 AM

Jexster-

You're just full of lies today, aren't you?

10148. Wombat - 9/20/2004 8:08:05 AM

Guess you are a "centrist" hack. If Bush had really wanted to serve in Vietnam, there were many avenues he could have taken instead of the National Guard. For example, he could have joined the Air Force.

Setting aside how Bush got into the Guard in the first place, the mystery is how he went from a well-thought-of pilot to someone who blew off his final year of service, actively avoided his obligations, and left a suspiciously incomplete paper trail. Care to speculate, Concerned?

10149. concerned - 9/20/2004 8:08:44 AM

Btw, how did Kerry get out of serving almost eight months of a one year tour of duty in Vietnam? He appears to have been AWOL longer than Lefties are accusing GWB of.

10150. Wombat - 9/20/2004 8:12:42 AM

If you get three Purple Hearts, you could choose your assignment. Bear in mind as well that Kerry was in his second tour of duty in the Navy.

Perhaps Bush thought that winning the golden beer keg three times entitled him to blow off his remaining time in the Guard.

10151. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:14:03 AM

Oh Shadenfreude Oh Shadenfreude

Major combat operations in Iraq have now ended. The US and its Allies have prevailed

The rats are certainly scurrying about on the decks of the Sinking Ship Bush..


Yesterday...McCain called him incompetent and the rabidly pro-War WaPo editorial page said...


Yet Mr. Bush, who spent the week campaigning for reelection, has offered scant acknowledgment of the quandary he faces or of the worsening state of a mission that has dominated more than half of his first term. His description of Iraq is bland to the point of dishonesty: "Despite ongoing acts of violence," he repeated Friday, "that country has a strong prime minister, they've got a national council and they are going to have elections in January of 2005." Not only has Mr. Bush not said how, or whether, he intends to respond to the worsening situation; he doesn't really admit it exists.


This duck-and-cover strategy may have its political advantages, but it is also deeply irresponsible and potentially dangerous

What do they expect of a policy made like all major policies in the Bush Regime...out of spun ideology not fact?

10152. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:15:33 AM

Btw, how did Kerry get out of serving almost eight months of a one year tour of duty in Vietnam? He appears to have been AWOL longer than Lefties are accusing GWB of.

Idiot..

Three purple heart got him out of his FIRST tour of duty

His SECOND tour of duty in theater was as aide to the Admiral in charge of the squadron off Vietnam

10153. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:15:45 AM

It appears NOT

10154. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:17:15 AM

HoldThemAccountable.com

10155. concerned - 9/20/2004 8:22:40 AM

I'd speculate that GWB knew that his best chance to serve in Vietnam was to do exactly what he did rather than to foolishly follow what you suggested which would have required him to switch services and go through a complete retraining program for, say, the F-15.

Apparently, you just never thought this situation through.

You also wouldn't have posed your question if you were willing to acknowledge that the US was winding down its involvement in Vietnam by 1973.

10156. concerned - 9/20/2004 8:24:16 AM

Three purple hearts from self-inflicted wounds got Kerry out of Vietnam early?

Well, there's your motive.

10157. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:27:44 AM

We Get By With a Little Help from Bush's Friends

Isn't this great TD!!

• Remarks by House Speaker Dennis Hastert, indicating a belief that Al Qaeda operatives would prefer John Kerry (news - web sites) in the White House, sparked a firestorm of protest Sunday from Democrats who labeled the Illinois Republican's comments as "fear mongering" and "un-American." [ChiTrib]
  
  
• ROME (Reuters) - Britain's ambassador to Italy has called President Bush (news - web sites) "the best recruiting sergeant" for al Qaeda, Italian media reported Monday.
  
  
  
  The comment, made at a closed-door conference at the weekend, was denounced by one leading Italian newspaper editor, who issued an open letter snubbing the veteran ambassador, Sir Ivor Roberts.
  
  
  Roberts was quoted as telling an annual Anglo-Italian gathering in Tuscany: "If anyone is ready to celebrate the eventual re-election of Bush, it's al Qaeda."
  
  
  

10158. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:28:46 AM

That's the ScuzBoat story TD..or so I am told

10159. Wombat - 9/20/2004 8:29:22 AM

Concerned:

You are--of course--deliberately misunderstanding. Rather than join the Guard in the first place (in 1968, when the war that Bush supported was in full swing), Bush could have joined the Air Force. He chose not to.

Ah, your newfound skepticism for unsourced innuendo has disappeared again.

10160. concerned - 9/20/2004 8:35:31 AM

Re. 10159 -

Kerry himself tried to join the National Guard but was turned down before he joined the Navy to avoid being drafted into a more onerous service in Vietham. You've trapped yourself into effectively calling Kerry a 'slacker', too.

You LW dimwits are so easy.

10161. alistairconnor - 9/20/2004 8:49:56 AM

All four volunteered for Vietnam (Bradley doesn't remember whether he and Bush actually signed paperwork [how extraordinarily convenient!]

Bush and Bradley were turned away, and the two more senior pilots went to Vietnam.


The Air Guard advised Bush he did not have the desired 500 hours of flight time as a pilot to qualify for Palace Alert duty, and, in any event, the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers.


Two unimpeachable sources who flat-out contradict each other.

And no paper trail...

10162. Wombat - 9/20/2004 8:52:36 AM

All that shows is that Kerry lacked Bush family influence, which permitted him to be jumped over 1,000 applicants into a cushy unit. Kerry instead joined the Navy. Remember, however, that Kerry was not gung-ho on the war. He carried out his obligation and served bravely when required.

Bush supported the war, but actively avoided it. He could not even bring himself to complete his less-than-onerous service. A true moral coward: someone who is unable to own up to his responsibilities (a trait that continues to this day), and expects others to pick up after his messes.

10163. concerned - 9/20/2004 9:19:02 AM

How can you say that GWB did not complete his service when he racked up over the required 50 ANG service points for each of six years (to wit: 253 points 1968/69 , 340 in 1969/70, 137 in 1970/71, 112 in 1971/72, 56 in 1972/73 and 56 in 1973/74) required to fulfill his ANG obligation?

10164. jexster - 9/20/2004 9:20:00 AM

kerry's speech is masterful....

10165. jexster - 9/20/2004 9:21:57 AM

Because there is no record that he completed his service...records that would exist if he did

Because he admitted to a Harvard Business school prof that he didn't

Because he said he didn't want to

Because numerous witnesses said he didn't

10166. concerned - 9/20/2004 9:22:18 AM

Re. 10161 -

That may well be due to the fact that at least one source which I didn't cite here claims that GWB applied on two different occasions for the 'Palace Alert' program.

Where's your 'flat out contradiction' now? Nowhere, it seems.

10167. jexster - 9/20/2004 9:22:48 AM

And because, as the Tim Russert interview makes clear, the only evidence that he did is his claim that he did

We know what weight to give Bush's claims

10168. concerned - 9/20/2004 9:24:09 AM

jexster -

I believe I once linked a copy of GWB's honorable discharge from the ANG to the Mote.

You are truly in a beyond the looking glass world when you push forged documents as real and pretend the real documents don't exist, merely to fuel your hate of GWB.

10169. jexster - 9/20/2004 9:26:37 AM

Bush 46%, Kerry 43% on the head-to-head match-up Zogby out today

10170. jexster - 9/20/2004 9:27:14 AM

That's right and so what?

Lots of people conned their way into that..and he did it because he had connections

10171. jexster - 9/20/2004 9:29:12 AM

Kevin Drum...

Andrew Sullivan is worried about George Bush's continuing denial about how badly things are going in Iraq:

We have to flush out at least Fallujah and Ramadi soon — or lose the ability to hold national elections in January (if we haven't already). And the mayhem that maneuver will unleash is not one we can easily stabilize without more troops and resources or a miracle in the capabilities of the Iraqi police and military. Before too long, a draft may become a very big topic on Capitol Hill. Big increases in military spending — over and above what we are already planning — will become necessary. What I worry about is a country that re-elects a president on the basis of denial about Iraq, and then turns on him with a vengeance when things get far worse.

A president unwilling to come to terms with reality. Re-election based on lies about future escalation. After the election an incident that forces the callup of more reserves and possibly a general draft. A massive backlash.

10172. jexster - 9/20/2004 9:42:04 AM

Joining John McCain and Andrew Sullivan

Kerry Questions Bush's Judgement on IraQ

10173. jexster - 9/20/2004 9:56:07 AM

TD for your reading pleasure

Portrait of George Bush in '72: Unanchored in Turbulent Time
By SARA RIMER - NyT
An examination of President Bush's life in 1972 yields a portrait of an entitled young man safe from combat.


That Son of Privilege, that Fortunate Son

10174. concerned - 9/20/2004 10:18:01 AM

More Sen. Gigolo bloopers:

"For NASA, space is still a high priority."


- John F. Kerry

10175. jayackroyd - 9/20/2004 10:45:19 AM

10173

Yes that was a nice summary of other people's reporting.

CBS has just conceded that the two documents were forged and that the source of the forgeries was Burkett. He has made some claim to his source that can't be verified.

10176. iiibbb - 9/20/2004 10:47:01 AM

Message # 10172

Kerry said Monday that Bush's invasion of Iraq has created a crisis that could lead to unending war and has raised questions about whether Bush's judgment is up to presidential standards. He offered his own four-point plan starting with pressing other nations for help.

_ Get more help from other nations.

_ Provide better training for Iraqi security forces.

_ Provide benefits to the Iraqi people.

_ Ensure that democratic elections can be held next year as promised.

This is a pretty vague 4-point plan.


The Republicans have accused him of staking out unclear, even contradictory, positions on Iraq. His speech was aimed at explaining his stance and drawing clear differences with Bush's leadership at a time when troubles in Iraq are mounting.

Kerry tried to turn the criticism back against the president by pointing to varying administration arguments for going to war.

"By one count, the president offered 23 different rationales for this war," Kerry said. "If his purpose was to confuse and mislead the American people, he succeeded."

Kerry said Bush's two main rationales — weapons of mass destruction and a connection between al-Qaida and the Sept. 11 attacks — have been proven false by weapons inspectors and the bipartisan commission investigating the attacks.

This was a good response by Kerry

10177. jayackroyd - 9/20/2004 10:57:10 AM

I was at the NYU speech. It was a little repetitive, but forceful in the right places, accusing Bush of not telling the truth, making the wrong choices and of incompetence. At one point he quoted one of Bush's more egregious bits of sunny optimism, and then said "Can he be serious?"

The lines were generally good, and didn't skirt the issues or exhibit fear of being accused of calling the president a liar. The thrust of the speech was to lay out the central dishonesty in the justification and conduct of the war, failures of vision (attacking Iraq rather than the terroists), failiures of planning (flowers and candy) and failures of execution. He also noted that the only people held accountable for their actions are the ones who tell the truth, referring to Shinseki, Lindsay and O'Neill.

Naturally, the media asking people what they thought said "Well, did he provide more specifics?" We've had 18 months of no specifics from the president, policy shifts on the fly and idiotic decision making, and Kerry has to provide "specifics." He did, I guess. He took the things he always says, and put them into a four point plan.

But the dominant thought I had as he suggested hiring Iraqis instead of American workers, of reforming our alliances, of spending the budgeted reconstruction money that it just may be too late. He acknowledges that by saying that it will be difficult, and will be more difficult now than it would have been five months ago, or a year ago--specifically blaming Bush policy failures for making it difficult.

10178. iiibbb - 9/20/2004 11:34:07 AM

But the dominant thought I had as he suggested hiring Iraqis instead of American workers,

The fact that iraqi jobs are being 'outsourced' doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense does it...

10179. Wombat - 9/20/2004 11:39:26 AM

Concerned has now sunk to "he received an honorable discharge, therefore he completed his service requirements." All that means is that the same people who eased Bush's way in to the Guard did the same to ease him out.

Those analyzing Bush's service points note that a number of them were credited even though they failed to fall within the exisitng regulations' parameters. Life is good when you are an irresponsible dolt with plenty of people looking out for you.

10180. Wombat - 9/20/2004 11:45:26 AM

iiibbb:

The Bush administration wants to export all aspects of the US economic system to Iraq.

10181. jexster - 9/20/2004 12:09:51 PM

That was a pipe dream that died long ago but in the process contributed significantly to the mess we are now in..there have been several excellent treatments of the subject..

For a compendium search Cole's INformed Comment

10182. jexster - 9/20/2004 12:10:44 PM

ANGRY Gays Seek to Influence Presidential Vote

No shit sherlock

10183. OhioSTOPAS - 9/20/2004 12:16:05 PM

iiibbb: In Message # 10176, you say Kerry's plans for Iraq are "pretty vague."

But what's Bush's plan?

10184. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/20/2004 12:20:34 PM

10185. iiibbb - 9/20/2004 12:31:52 PM

Message # 10183

If the goal is to secure independent votes, Kerry isn't doing too well if he only relies on Bush's vagueness to win. Trading uncertainty for uncertainty isn't much of a trade... the best you can expect to do is break even between the people who in times of uncertainty vote out the incumbent... while others defer to the status quo.

Kerry should want to earn votes not break even... the only way to earn votes is to provide direction.

Kerry talking about making gun control more strict (based on his voting record), while being vague about what he'd do for Iraq, and not being particularly intersting on the economy (yet), and all of my conflicting views of him as far as Vietnam goes...

Right now I lean slightly toward Kerry... but I've long said that just getting up there and ranting how much Bush sucks isn't going to do it for me... and the more he does it the less likely I am to vote for him because it makes me think he doesn't have a clue.

10186. iiibbb - 9/20/2004 12:34:44 PM

The more Kerry (and supporters of Kerry) rant about the sucktitude of Bush, the less likely I will vote for Kerry because that just shows that people are either fixated on winning power, or they also don't have a clue about how to run the country.

10187. concerned - 9/20/2004 12:39:00 PM

Re. 10179 -

Wombat -

I know that you will persist in denying reality and cannot face up to the fact that GWB earned more than the requisite service points for each year of his ANG service to receive his honorable discharge.

Sorry, Wombat, your 'case' died when the CBS News forgeries were exposed. You have nothing...nothing to back up your bogus anti-GWB ANG assertions.

But feel free to continue to hack away at that dead horse, by all means.

10188. jayackroyd - 9/20/2004 12:40:49 PM

Kerry talking about making gun control more strict

You've already said these strictures don't work. So why do you care if they are in place?

while being vague about what he'd do for Iraq

What do you want him to say? What more can he say than what he said today?

but I've long said that just getting up there and ranting how much Bush sucks isn't going to do it for me

Utter failure in policy, domestic and foreign, is not something that you'd consider strongly when casting your vote? Bush's persistent lying on the war in Iraq, Cheney's continued false conflation of Iraq with terrorism isn't an issue? The fact the McClennan just got called Baghdad Bob by a Time columnist isn't an influencing factor?

Here's Kerry's economic plan. It's as detailed and clear as these things get. And it has one other important quality--I think it represents what he'll try to do. What is Bush's plan?

10189. jayackroyd - 9/20/2004 12:44:54 PM

concerned--

the forgeries don't change the facts.

By that time, still without an Alabama unit, he had not attended a required monthly drill for almost five months, according to records released by the White House.

snip

But there are no records from the 187th indicating that Mr. Bush, in fact, appeared on those days in October and November, and more than a dozen members of the unit from that era say they never saw him. The White House said last week that there were no records from the Alabama unit because Mr. Bush was still officially part of the Texas Guard. But Mr. Hodges, the former Texas commander, said the 187th "should have a record of his drills."

NYTimes, today.

10190. jayackroyd - 9/20/2004 12:47:44 PM

By the summer of 1973, Mr. Bush had decided to go to Harvard Business School. According to documents released by the White House, he wanted an early discharge from the Guard but did not have enough service points for 1972 and 1973, since he had missed months of training. Guardsmen were required to earn 48 points each fiscal year, or four points for each weekend drill every month.

Although missed drills can be made up, regulations at the time said it had to be done within 30 days and in the same fiscal year. As the time for his early discharge neared, Mr. Bush was lacking enough points; according to records for July 1973, he attended drills on 18 days that month.

When questions arose about Mr. Bush's Guard service, the White House asked a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel, Albert C. Lloyd Jr., to review his record. In a memorandum released by the White House in February, Mr. Lloyd wrote that from May 1973 through May 1974, Mr. Bush accumulated 35 training points and 15 points for being a Guard member "for a total of 56 points.'' It is not clear how Mr. Lloyd came up with 56, instead of 50. Another military document released by the White House indicates that Mr. Bush had earned only 38 points from May 1973 until his discharge that October.

A retired Army colonel, Gerald A. Lechliter, who has prepared an extensive analysis of Mr. Bush's National Guard record, described Mr. Lloyd's memorandum as "seemingly an attempt to whitewash Bush's record." Mr. Lloyd declined comment last week.

Mr. Lechliter, who describes himself as a political independent, also said that Mr. Bush was not entitled to 20 credits he received from Nov. 13, 1972, until July 19, 1973, because the service was being made up improperly.

Mr. Lechliter also said that Mr. Bush should not have been paid for these sessions. "That would appear to be a fraud," he said in an interview last week.

10191. jayackroyd - 9/20/2004 12:47:49 PM

this stuff is not in doubt, not refuted by the campaign. You can make the defense that a lot of Guard members did this kind of thing then. That may be true. But it is certainly not true that he fulfilled his service obligations, anymore than it is true that he entered the service without influence.

Bush could settle the whole thing by just saying where he was and what he was doing. Cheney's settled the whole thing by just admitting he got deferments. What keeps this alive is that it makes it look like Bush was doing something even worse than skipping guard service.

10192. thoughtful - 9/20/2004 12:51:39 PM

what keeps this alive is the fact that the gopers want it kept alive....keep the focus on and generate dispute over events 35 years ago and you keep the focus on things that most people don't know or could care less about thereby keeping the focus off the war in iraq, the budget deficit, the anemic jobs growth, the increased risk in terrorism, the fact that no one knows where bin laden is, the increasing nuclear threat in n. korea and iran, etc etc etc

10193. judithathome - 9/20/2004 12:54:58 PM

The DC sniper and Timothy McVeigh were honorably discharged, too.

10194. thoughtful - 9/20/2004 1:05:01 PM

Q for concerned and other conservatives in these parts, does it not bother you at all that the bushies are vetting audience members before they are even allowed into all these campaign events? That those who won't sign a loyalty oath to the president are not allowed in?

10195. concerned - 9/20/2004 1:23:16 PM

Bush could settle the whole thing by just saying where he was and what he was doing.

He has. It's settled. What more do you want?

10196. concerned - 9/20/2004 1:25:08 PM

This tautology may surprise the propagandaists among the Left:

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach
our children."
- John F. Kerry

10197. jayackroyd - 9/20/2004 1:34:54 PM

He has. It's settled. What more do you want?

Oh? Where was he, what was he doing, and show me the quote.

10198. jexster - 9/20/2004 2:00:44 PM

I3B3

This is the single most comphrensive treatment of how the Bush neocon plan to privatize IraQ wound up screwing the place all to hell.


Cole's got all the factoids but here it is in one place.

Unfortunately it is not on the web but in the September issue of Harpers Mag

Report
Baghdad Year Zero
Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia
Naomi Klein

Bottom line...no reconstruction, no employment steadily worsening security and steadily strenghening insurgency financed and manned in large measure as a direct consequence of the fact that these idiots had no clue what they were doing

And have now become, in the words of the British Ambassador to Italy, "recruiting sergeants for Al Qaeda"

I say hold them accountable

That is what an election in a representative democracy is all about

10199. OhioSTOPAS - 9/20/2004 2:14:03 PM

Message # 10196: "concerned", that's something Dan Quayle said, not John Kerry. The same is true for the quote regarding NASA you earlier falsely attributed to Kerry.

10200. judithathome - 9/20/2004 2:30:27 PM

Glad you cleared that up, Ohio...I was thinking he was quoting Bush but Quayle is good enough.

10201. judithathome - 9/20/2004 2:31:14 PM

"It's not easy putting food on your family"....GW Bush.

10202. thoughtful - 9/20/2004 2:41:41 PM

hahahaha. Why just today I got a lot of mileage out of this favorite W quote:

"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier - just so long I'm the dictator." December 18, 2000

10203. Magoseph - 9/20/2004 2:45:29 PM

I like that one: "Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country." —George W. Bush, Poplar Bluff, Mo., Sept. 6, 2004

10204. judithathome - 9/20/2004 2:56:42 PM

Good letter in "Altercation" today about the forged documents:

Name: Alan Hampton

Hometown: Austin, TX

Can someone please explain to me how the Bush campaign can tell within 24 hours that a scan of a fax of a Xerox of a document that restates known facts about W's National Guard service is a forgery, but the same people couldn't determine for several months that the Niger "yellowcake" letters were obvious fakes? Are we supposed to hold 60 Minutes II to a higher standard than the State of the Union address? Are the pundits that are screaming that Dan Rather has lost credibility willing to apply the same standards to Bush?

10205. OhioSTOPAS - 9/20/2004 3:03:26 PM

That IS a good point.

And regarding Magoseph's (Message # 10203), what's up with Bush on the campaign trail constantly referring to doctors as "docs"? Did a focus group tell Karl Rove that "docs" sounds like regular folks?

10206. thoughtful - 9/20/2004 3:03:53 PM

for ny times fans, this sunday's oped page had short pieces from people on how kerry should boost his campaign. To give you an idea, panetta's piece was entitled, "Pick a Message, Any Message".

The fact that this far into the campaign, polls show people don't feel they know kerry or where he stands, and political types are still pushing kerry to get on message and stay on message, shows what an absolute disaster this campaign has been...even without the efforts of the rove-meister. Unless he gets his act together FAST, this will go down in history as the most inept campaign, second only to that of gore.

With all the material w has handed the dems, this election is kerry's to lose, and so far he's doing a darned fine job of it!

10207. Magoseph - 9/20/2004 3:05:14 PM

His base is mostly composed of regular folks who speak as he does, Ohio.

10208. Magoseph - 9/20/2004 3:08:50 PM

It was in Milwaukee for four months. I don't know, but it seems to me that Dallas would have had him at one point the last ten years or so.

10209. Magoseph - 9/20/2004 3:09:39 PM

Sorry for the above post. I thought that I was in the Cafe.

10210. concerned - 9/20/2004 3:34:19 PM

Maybe jayackroyd asked the question in another thread 'what did gwb do during his 1973 ANG service', but I'm posting the answer here. This is from The Facts about Bush and the National Guard - The Democratic charges fall apart.:


On the other hand, showing up for drills was still meeting one's responsibility to the Guard. And, as 1973 went along, the evidence suggests that Bush stepped up his work to make up for the time he had missed earlier. In April of that year, he received credit for two days; in May, he received credit for 14 days; in June, five days; and in July, 19 days. That was the last service Bush performed in the Guard. Later that year, he asked for and received permission to leave the Guard early so he could attend Harvard Business School. He was given an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months, and five days of his original six-year commitment.

So we know that GWB met his ANG service commitment in full, earning his honorable discharge.

10211. wonkers2 - 9/20/2004 3:34:25 PM

Here's the message--

Bush is a failed president

---Foreign policy--he's gotten us into a mess in Iraq based on false information; alienated our allies and increased our risk from terrorism;

---Economic policy--he's cut taxes for the rich while increasing spending and let the national debt skyrocket with a predictable result--a sluggish economy and high unemployment--he says he is for jobs but where? China, India, Bangladesh??;

---Social Security and Medicare--Bush, in effect, took money needed for Social Security and Medicare and gave it to the rich via a big tax cut and his solution is to turn our tried and true Social Security system over to the wolves of Wall Street and Medicare over to the drug companies;

---The Environment--Bush has misled the American people, portraying himself as an environmentalist while giving the mining, oil, lumber and energy industries a blank check;

--Education--Bush's underfunded program has left thousands of children behind;

Bush has failed us on foreign policy, he's failed us on jobs and the economy; he's failed on Medicare and Social Security; he's turned the air, the woods and streams over to polluters; and he's balooned the national debt, leaving it for our grandchildren to pay off; and he gets an F on his underfunded education policy which has left thousands of children behind.

10212. wonkers2 - 9/20/2004 3:35:02 PM

It's time for a change!

10213. thoughtful - 9/20/2004 4:10:58 PM

wonk, that falls into the same trap though that it's not enough for kerry to be the non-bush (though it clearly is for some of us). He needs to create his own vision and state it clearly.

Regrettably, it's all about image and sound bite. It's all about controlling the message. Kerry has been reactionary vs. proactive. It's all about being understandable. Bush talked about the "tax gap" in kerry's plan. He said kerry's plan simply doesn't pay for itself and that means there's a tax gap. And you know who's going to have to fill that gap...you the taxpayer. Vote for me and I'll make sure your taxes don't go up.

Very simple, straightforward, and understandable to the common man. That sells.

Going into the details of the fact that bush has cut taxes and increased spending and driven up the deficit and then going into multigenerational taxing issues, or the impact of the deficit on long-run interest rates and investment spending down the road, while true and important, simply doesn't sell.

In fact, if you look at bush's approach, he talks very simply about his plan and then has a web site for the policy wonks to look up the details. The majority of people though aren't going anywhere near that web site, I guarantee it. All he needs to do is state I have a plan and you can read it yourself is enough for most folks.

The approach is very effective.

10214. robertjayb - 9/20/2004 4:28:28 PM

Investor's Business Daily/Christian Science Monitor poll out today has exactly the same numbers as Zogby: Bush 46%, Kerry 43% among likely voters. Among registered voters Bush 44%, Kerry 43%.

(-- Josh Marshall)

10215. judithathome - 9/20/2004 5:04:37 PM

Regrettably, it's all about image and sound bite. It's all about controlling the message.

It doesn't matter how smartly Kerry speaks or what his "message" is by the time it reaches the media. I watch different news channels all day long and it's the same on all of them...the Republicans come on with their talking points and the Democrats get pasted each time. Meanwhile, they are running LIVE shots of the Bush speeches because, well, he's the President! and he's speaking to crowds! Little matter that those crowds have been culled of all dissenters and are filled with hand-picked people who have signed oaths of fealty to the man.

If Kerry gets on at all, it is a quickie shot of him talking and they don't show the points he actually makes but instead, anything he says about Bush is higlighted. Then cut to the studio where some flunky the RNC has plugged in parrots the daily line...today's was "Kerry is floundering around with no message and is getting in a panic as his numbers plummet" and no one corrects these obvious lies and fiction.

Today I stood up and cheered as Jamie Rubin slapped down the RNC puppet du jour...this is what Kerry needs: smart, articulate guys who have the bearing and command to swat these gnats around when they come out with the party line.

10216. jexster - 9/20/2004 5:09:27 PM

GOP Sen. Won't Commit to Voting for Bush

Mon Sep 20, 3:32 PM ET

By BROOKE DONALD, Associated Press Writer

PROVIDENCE, R.I. - Republican Sen. Lincoln Chafee (news, bio, voting record) said Monday he plans to support his party in November but may write in a candidate instead of voting for President Bush (news - web sites).




The Republican said the party's direction in the future will determine his political career as well. He said he's "not OK" with the conservative platform from the Republican convention, but would not say if he'd consider switching parties in his next election in 2006.


"It wasn't that long ago that moderates had more of a voice," Chafee said. "It's a cycle that I hope will come back."


He isn't going to write in anyone ...that's just a cover story for his REAL vote.

God knows, the Busheviks have no mercy on "traitors"..they've even ordered the SF RCCC not to endorse local GOP candidates who are members of Log Cabin ...a move which is incredibly harmful to the local GOP..but no matter it is all for the Greater Glory of the Idiot Son...


That son of privilege, that coward, that fortunate son

10217. jexster - 9/20/2004 5:10:50 PM

Regrettably, it's all about image and sound bite. It's all about controlling the message.

WHO SAID THAT?

What slimy twinkle toes commie cock sucker said that?


Whoever...RIGHT ON

10218. jexster - 9/20/2004 5:13:54 PM

Kerry Says He Wouldn't Have Ousted Saddam


NEW YORK - Staking out new ground on Iraq (news - web sites), Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) suggested Monday that he would not have overthrown Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) had he known what he knows now, and accused President Bush (news - web sites) of "stubborn incompetence," dishonesty and colossal failures of judgment. Bush said Kerry was flip-flopping.


AP Photo



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AP - 1 hour, 42 minutes ago

· Cheney Again Warns Against Choosing Kerry
AP - 1 hour, 44 minutes ago

· Duped CBS Regrets Airing Disputed Bush Memos
Reuters - 1 hour, 52 minutes ago


All Election Coverage





Less than two years after voting to give Bush authority to invade Iraq, the Democratic candidate said that had he known there were no weapons of mass destruction and had he been president, he would not have followed Bush's path to war. Bush, also speaking hypothetically, says he would have invaded Iraq, even knowing what he knows now.


"Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who deserves his own special place in hell," Kerry said. "But that was not, in itself, a reason to go to war. The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact: We have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure."


YES!

That's the TD position.

10219. Wombat - 9/20/2004 6:02:38 PM

Unfortunately the days that Calhoun claimed he saw Bush do service in Alabama do not coincide with Bush's records. The point totals have been examined and found wrongly credited. Keep trying, Concerned.

10220. jexster - 9/20/2004 6:46:45 PM

Shoulda Listened to Poppy
The Tet New Year Comes Early for His Moron Son

Iraq War is Unwinnable

Message # 1348 in thread 161

10221. jexster - 9/20/2004 7:23:12 PM

Funny how this bogus story of the Bush double digit lead cuts.

I mean there are only two interpretations:

1)The lead never existed, the race has always been a dead heat for the past 2 weeks

or

2) The lead existed and Bush's popularity has plummeted 10% or so in less than a week

Now as a Kerry man I sure like 2 but believe 1 is true

A Bushie on the other hand believes 2 but likes 1 better.

Isn't life strange.

10222. arkymalarky - 9/20/2004 8:15:22 PM

10133. concerned - 9/19/2004 4:27:10 PM

Re. 10035 -

'Convincingly' doesn't cut it. It has to be true, and most of Kitty Kelly's 'dirt' on the Bushes has been discredited.

By whom?

And I'm glad Ohio called you on the quotes. I read one on Bushisms in Slate just today.

10223. winstonsmith - 9/20/2004 8:17:50 PM

Jexter,

"The lead existed and Bush's popularity has plummeted 10% or so in less than a week"

This one would sound great on the news. Bet we won't hear it.

10224. arkymalarky - 9/20/2004 8:18:30 PM

What's helping Bush wrt Iraq is fading and will hurt him as headlines simply can't be ignored and his inability to change his message or accept the reality of its lunacy becomes more obvious. He's painted himself into a corner that will be achingly obvious Nov 3. His friends like Hastert and Cheney aren't going to help, and Republicans of conscience who continue to speak out will add to the pile.

He'd better do damned well in the debates.

10225. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:45:22 PM

On the day that reports of Sir Ivor Roberts observation to the Italian Government that Al Qaeda would back Bush's election hit British and US news, the Guardian UK reports that 71% of Britons want their government to set a timetable to withdraw troops from the Bush Quagmire.

Bush was able to work his suck and jive about IraQ behind the smokescreen of 9/11 hysteria and then behind the TV commercials and the conventions and the snarling Cheney and ScuzBoat attacks.

Now he has to stand toe to toe in the spotlight

The American people can now focus on this disaster more clearly and see that the Emperor has no clothes

10226. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:48:21 PM

Kerry put in plainly - he would have invaded to secure the vital security interests of the US.

He would not have invaded to overthrow Saddam.

That not only puts Bush in the very uncomfortable position of having to explain away his pre-war statements to that same effect, it also exposes the flip flopping, the crawfishing, the incompetence, the flatulent spin and the lies that Bush continues to tell

No where for him to run.

Nowhere to hide

10227. jexster - 9/20/2004 8:51:23 PM

Of course we won't..these people can't diss their own polls

And that is a REAL problem

When CNN or any organization commissions a poll, you will notice that virtually without exception all of their analysis is based on that poll and no others.

Stands to reason that their analyses would not be credible if they did otherwise.

If their polls come crashing back to earth, if next time their demographics aren't screwed up they will wrongly report a Kerry surge but will probably do so in whispered tones because he was never really behind to begin with and they know it

10228. jexster - 9/20/2004 11:08:22 PM

GWB's "Honorable Discharge" Discharged NyT

I guess you missed the final paragraphs TD..

When questions arose about Mr. Bush's Guard service, the White House asked a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel, Albert C. Lloyd Jr., to review his record. In a memorandum released by the White House in February, Mr. Lloyd wrote that from May 1973 through May 1974, Mr. Bush accumulated 35 training points and 15 points for being a Guard member "for a total of 56 points.'' It is not clear how Mr. Lloyd came up with 56, instead of 50. Another military document released by the White House indicates that Mr. Bush had earned only 38 points from May 1973 until his discharge that October.

A retired Army colonel, Gerald A. Lechliter, who has prepared an extensive analysis of Mr. Bush's National Guard record, described Mr. Lloyd's memorandum as "seemingly an attempt to whitewash Bush's record." Mr. Lloyd declined comment last week.

Mr. Lechliter, who describes himself as a political independent, also said that Mr. Bush was not entitled to 20 credits he received from Nov. 13, 1972, until July 19, 1973, because the service was being made up improperly.

Mr. Lechliter also said that Mr. Bush should not have been paid for these sessions. "That would appear to be a fraud," he said in an interview last week.

However the points added up, on Oct. 1, 1973, Mr. Bush was awarded an honorable discharge. By that time he was already at Harvard.



A moral coward and liar then

and now

10229. jayackroyd - 9/21/2004 1:16:42 AM

On the other hand, showing up for drills was still meeting one's responsibility to the Guard. And, as 1973 went along, the evidence suggests that Bush stepped up his work to make up for the time he had missed earlier. In April of that year, he received credit for two days; in May, he received credit for 14 days; in June, five days; and in July, 19 days. That was the last service Bush performed in the Guard. Later that year, he asked for and received permission to leave the Guard early so he could attend Harvard Business School. He was given an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months, and five days of his original six-year commitment.

You obviously didn't read the times piece. First, it's impossible to make up, legally, time in blocks like that because time has to be made up within 30 days in the same fiscal year. Second, those counts have already been demonstrated to be false, taking place on dates when there wsa no service happening.

10230. jexster - 9/21/2004 5:00:43 AM

Raising the question once again What is Bush Hiding?

Because when he's hiding something, we all know that he has something to hide and is probably lying

10231. jexster - 9/21/2004 5:11:08 AM

George Will calls them to account

Dubious Dreams About Iraq


We're tired of being lied to.

Liberal, conservative and those in between, tired of the Little Yale Cheerleader's Pep Rallies. We're tired of his sideline cheers when the team is two touchdowns back, 2 min left, no time outs

We're ready to hold him accountable for his lies and his incompetence as commander in chief, not his skills as Bullshitter-in-chief.

10232. jexster - 9/21/2004 5:34:51 AM

In his post, ARG v. Gallup, Ruy T says watch the ARG September 50 State Polls which he believes will reinforce even more the view that this race remains close.

According to an analysis of the 2000 race linked in the post, ARG was more accurate in September than Gallup was in the last days of the race.

Partial 20 poll release shows Maine now in Kerry's Kamp and Colorado tied.

The rest will be released Wednesday

10233. judithathome - 9/21/2004 7:19:46 AM

Big header in our paper today states "Bush Pulling Ahead in Gore States".

10234. RickNelson - 9/21/2004 8:07:54 AM

News in Minnesota polls are putting red where blue used to be. But, I find interesting the purple being used to consider counties with swayable votes. Without counting the counties involved I will guess half are purple here in 10,000 Lakes land.

I'll vote Kerry to oust the Lier Bush and his crony thief Cheney.

10235. RickNelson - 9/21/2004 8:09:55 AM

Liar, I meant liar. Damn English spelling.

10236. wonkers2 - 9/21/2004 8:27:03 AM

I.M.F. CHIEF SEES POTENTIAL HAZARD IN U.S. FISCAL POLICIES

The managing director of the International Monetary Fund, Rodrigo de Rato, said yesterday that the dollar would have to fall and the U. S. would have to tackle its growing indebtedness to avoid a threat to the world economy xsome time in the future.

He noted that with the U.S.'s deficitg remaining well over 4 percent of its gross domestic product for years to come, "some correction in the value of currencies will make sense from the point of view of fundamentals."

"We believe such a large imbalance is a risk not only for the U.S. economy, but for the world economy," he said.

NYT 9-21-04

10237. RickNelson - 9/21/2004 8:33:02 AM

so, what do the fiscal conservative Republican's think about that?

Nothing is my guess.

10238. clydefo - 9/21/2004 9:34:30 AM

A UN Democracy Fund with significant US contributions? Did I notice a perceptible shift of the delegates to the front of their seats and grins all around?

10239. jayackroyd - 9/21/2004 9:38:21 AM

Notice that he didn't state a number? And that he reiterated the 15 billion dollar AIDS promise--that was never kept.

But what got me most of all were the recitations of innocent children killed for no reason. There are lots of little graves in Iraq as well, and I don't see how anyone could not have that cross his or her mind.

10240. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:24:53 AM

I dunno WHICH Gore states they are talking about...PA had some funny polls, Wisconsin too...but I don't see any pulling away from any polls JAH..


They do love their liars in Tejas..a role model I guess

10241. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:25:23 AM

Either that or they're 10 days behind in their news..

Another real possibilty

10242. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:27:48 AM

Voter Terrorism

For decades, Republicans have mounted highly organized operations to discourage minorities from voting. Experts say there's no reason to believe this year's presidential campaign will be any different


Thus far and for the record, of the 20 states released, ARG has Kerry ahead in 4 of 5 battlegrounds listed.

In the one, Bush leads by 1 point in Colorado which he won easily in 2000

10243. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:29:50 AM

I think Colorado is hot for two reasons..first the influx of Hispanics since 2000 and also because Coors is the GOP Senate candidate...next to that guy Coburn in OK, he's about as far right a major candidate as the GOP has fielded..He's Keyesian wack

10244. thoughtful - 9/21/2004 10:51:31 AM

Regrettably, it's all about image and sound bite. It's all about controlling the message.

WHO SAID THAT?

What slimy twinkle toes commie cock sucker said that?


Um....er...jex, that was me.

I don't think i quite fit that very graphic description though. My twinkle toes are far from slimy.

10245. OhioSTOPAS - 9/21/2004 11:36:55 AM

George W. Bush has a document - an honorable discharge - that states he honorably fulfilled his duty to the National Guard. Bush and his defenders brandish this document in answer to all charges that he failed to do his duty.

CBS has phony documents that accurately state what happened, but Bush trumps them with a genuine document that falsely states what happened.

10246. jexster - 9/21/2004 11:59:34 AM

The Saudis just say no to Bush

The desert kingdom's elite say a second term would be "catastrophic" Salon

10247. jexster - 9/21/2004 12:09:09 PM

As usual thoughtfilled!

Hollywood Freeway Near Franklin

10248. thoughtful - 9/21/2004 1:14:57 PM

seems women are to blame. kerry better start harping on abortion rights and child care issues and health care and the environment, etc. and who was it? saffire of all people who suggested kerry needs to remind all mothers that if the iraq quagmire isn't resolved, their 8 year olds may be shipped off to iraq in 10 years.

10249. thoughtful - 9/21/2004 1:17:14 PM

no guess it wasn't saffire, but somebody. anyway, it was a good point.

10250. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/21/2004 1:24:10 PM

10251. jayackroyd - 9/21/2004 1:39:07 PM

I'm beginning to think Kerry may get a last minute surge of strategic votes from conservatives who recognize the situation in Iraq is hopeless, and want to leave him holding the bag.

10252. jexster - 9/21/2004 1:45:39 PM

Bring It On Bitch!
IraQ Speech Puts Kamp Kerry in Fighting Mood

10253. wonkers2 - 9/21/2004 1:52:12 PM

I.M.F. CHIEF SEES POTENTIAL HAZARD IN U.S. FISCAL POLICIES

The managing director of the International Monetary Fund, Rodrigo de Rato, said yesterday that the dollar would have to fall and the U. S. would have to tackle its growing indebtedness to avoid a threat to the world economy xsome time in the future.

He noted that with the U.S.'s deficitg remaining well over 4 percent of its gross domestic product for years to come, "some correction in the value of currencies will make sense from the point of view of fundamentals."

"We believe such a large imbalance is a risk not only for the U.S. economy, but for the world economy," he said.

NYT 9-21-04

10254. jexster - 9/21/2004 1:53:08 PM

No Thoughtful..wrong again..Security Moms not soccer moms ..we're talking to a group that can easily empathize with losing a son or daughter for a lie


Leave the social issues to Bush..he is stoking them that is his strategery...

Abortion rights..every wacko he brings in, mobilizes the vote for Kerry...

Do not mix messages...Lies and Incomptence Incompetence and lies...

Iraq
WOT
Economy
Social Security
Health Care
The Environment
Education


All those issues play off Iraq from here on out....

the race is a dead heat and only one track will break it open..and Kerry has taken the right path

We are at the tipping point or will be in 10 days


Now get with the program

Pogue Colonel : You'd better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant shit on you.
Private Joker : Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel : Now answer my question or you'll be standing tall before the man.
Private Joker : I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Pogue Colonel : The what?
Private Joker : The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
Pogue Colonel : Whose side are you on, son?
Private Joker : Our side, sir.
Pogue Colonel : Don't you love your country?
Private Joker : Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel : Then how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?
Private Joker : Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel : Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.
Private Joker : Aye-aye, sir.

10255. concerned - 9/21/2004 1:54:56 PM

Two invalid premises and one invalid conclusion in 10251.

10256. jexster - 9/21/2004 2:02:05 PM

The IraQ situation is hopeless...the facts speak for themselves and Bush continues to lie

George Will, William Lind, Pat Buchanan, Andrew Sullivan, Robert Novak, John McCain, Richard Lugar, and about 75% of the national security establishment agree with the National Security Assessment...

George Bush is a liar, an incompetent who has built a fantasy out of spin

Americans are dying for nothing
The US is losing the war on terror
and the re-election of George Bush would be a catastrophe for the US.

Wanna argue each point?

Bring it on

10257. jexster - 9/21/2004 2:02:42 PM

I'll let Jay knock you about for a couple of hours, then I will have some fun with whatever remains

10258. jexster - 9/21/2004 2:11:11 PM

Perhaps this will get things started..

1. Appeal For Truth Telling
Ray McGovern, CIA

Enough with the ex post facto apologies from whistleblowers. A group of former government officials are joining forces to call on their colleagues to speak out now – and help prevent the next Iraq or Abu Ghraib.

2. Losing the War on Terror

3. Bush Goes Beggin at the UN - Fails to Repudiate Failed Policies

The rats are running for their lives on the Sinking Ship Bush now that Kerry as launched the IraQ ASROC


Want some compelling indirect proof?

Look at your posts or go to Slate's Fray and look at your Bushevik comrades

Just look at them run against Dan Rather!

True conservatives want the neo-brand hung by the necks until dead

10259. jexster - 9/21/2004 2:16:25 PM

and ThoughtFilled got this one right - again

Maybe we can start some World Wrestling Macho Testosterone thing..bring on Jimmy Swaggart ACe Bushevik

Bush Rejected Plans to Go After Top Terrorist

How many American lives, prestige, and dollars was that pathetic pile of shit Saddam worth?

10260. robertjayb - 9/21/2004 2:46:07 PM

This worthy but wordy Salon Premium piece, "Voter Terrorism", fails to mention that polling place intimidation (in Arizona) was part of Chief Justice William Rehnquist's early career path.

For decades, Republicans have mounted highly organized operations to discourage minorities from voting. Experts say there's no reason to believe this year's presidential campaign will be any different.

10261. robertjayb - 9/21/2004 2:47:45 PM

Curses! Beaten by the fugitive coonass.

10262. jexster - 9/21/2004 6:04:27 PM

You armadillahs are pretty slow..

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites) said Tuesday that President Bush (news - web sites) failed to present a true picture of Iraq (news - web sites) to the United Nations (news - web sites) and "does not have the credibility to lead the world."


AP Photo


AP Photo
Slideshow: John Kerry




Latest headlines:
· Gore Campaign Declined Bush Guard Story
AP - 43 minutes ago

· AP: Kerry Fund-Raisers, S. Korean Spy Met
AP - 1 hour, 12 minutes ago

· AdWatch: Kerry Hits Bush on Health Care
AP - 1 hour, 22 minutes ago


All Election Coverage





"The president really has no credibility at this point," Kerry said in his first news conference since Aug. 9. "He has no credibility with foreign leaders who hear him come before them and talk as if everything is going well, and they see that we can't even protect the people on the ground for the election."

10263. jexster - 9/21/2004 6:06:00 PM

Bush to lead the world...that's almost as good as Novaks line that watching Iraqis fight it out required a "resolute leader"

Close very close

10264. jayackroyd - 9/21/2004 6:12:59 PM

101255

Please delineate. You think the situation is hopeful?

10265. jexster - 9/21/2004 6:54:35 PM

You think Alan Keyes is wack

Look at what they've done in Oklahoma!

undergoing yet another shake up."

The Oklahoman reported yesterday that many Republicans are urging their party to get involved, saying "it's time for their party to enter the fray." U.S. Representative Tom Cole, R-Moore, was quoted echoing these sentiments expressed by Parmley. "Things need to start happening quickly...There needs to be help from Washington," Cole said.

"It seems everyone is in agreement that Tom Coburn's campaign is in trouble. They've run up the distress flag, and are bringing in another person to bail out this sinking ship," Parmley said. "After having to answer questions raised about why he called the people of Oklahoma City 'crapheads,' he made inflammatory remarks toward members of the Cherokee Nation, claiming that most of them 'aren't even Indians,' and called our treaties with them `primitive agreements' and 'a joke.' Now Tom Coburn is having to answer charges that he committed Medicaid fraud and sterilized a woman without her consent. [War Room note: Salon broke this story last week.] His campaign is obviously fearful that if they don't bring in outside help, and bring it in fast, they'll soon be raising the white flag of defeat."



God I hope so...Sen Dr. Mengele, (R_OK)

10266. jexster - 9/21/2004 8:04:31 PM

WSJ 9/21
Check the last sentence:

Quote:
The latest Zogby Interactive poll of 16 battleground states shows Mr. Kerry ahead in 11 states, one state fewer than in a poll taken during the Republican convention two weeks earlier. Because Mr. Kerry's lead is thin in several states, including Florida, where the candidates remain less than a percentage point apart, the race is even closer than 11-5 state tally depicts.

Let's run the numbers.

To recap, in analyzing Zogby's results, we begin by assuming that the District of Columbia and the 34 states that aren't in the battleground poll will vote for the same political party this November as they did in the 2000 election. (That assumption has become less firm since Mr. Bush picked up strength following the Republican convention. More on that later.) Thus, in our analysis, Mr. Bush starts with 189 electoral votes, while Mr. Kerry begins with 172. To win the White House, a candidate must capture 270 electoral votes.

From that starting point, we add in the electoral votes from the latest poll, regardless of the margin of error or the spread between the candidates. Mr. Kerry's 11 states control 125 votes, while Mr. Bush's five states have 52. Thus, if the results on Election Day match the findings of the Zogby poll, Mr. Kerry would win, 297-241
End Quote

10267. winstonsmith - 9/21/2004 8:50:14 PM

At this point, for me and my family, It's all out fuckin war against George W. Bush. We are donating thousands of dollars(that we can't afford)volunteering time to the campaign (making painfull choices to make the time) and talking to every person we know or meet to convince them to vote for Kerry. If that craven bastard wins, we will continue to fight him every moment for the next four years and give money to every group that seeks to castrate and nullify the Bush administration.

I really am a pretty calm and moderate person but I loath Bush and his posse with a passion I have seldom felt in my life.

10268. wonkers2 - 9/21/2004 8:52:39 PM

My exact feelings. Thursday I start to volunteer in our local Dem/Kerry campaign office.

10269. arkymalarky - 9/21/2004 8:55:42 PM

I can sympathize with you, Winston. I find it difficult to contain my disgust, but I pretty much have to much of the time. I really think he's a menace. I didn't feel that way in 2000 and the only other candidate I've ever felt that way about was Reagan. He wasn't as bad as I feared and I was much younger and more idealistic. I have both eyes wide open now and it's scary as hell.

And my parents are that way too. They're political, but their feelings are much more intense than I ever recall before. It's a bit unsettling, for some reason.

10270. winstonsmith - 9/21/2004 9:04:40 PM

Wonkers,

Thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I feel somewhat embarrassed to expose the harshness of how I feel but I think that if we hope to win, we have to band with like minded people and fight like hell. We can't allow transitory polls and the vagaries of political reporting to get us down. We have to just fight as hard as we can to the finish.

10271. arkymalarky - 9/21/2004 9:05:45 PM

Did y'all get the Michael Moore email? Bro sent it to me. I'm about to log off, but if it isn't posted when I get home tomorrow I'll post it.

10272. winstonsmith - 9/21/2004 9:07:54 PM

Thanks Arky.

My parents are the same. I have never seen my 80 year old mother so angry as when she talks about Bush. She will not look at his face, either on the TV or in print.

10273. concerned - 9/21/2004 9:51:15 PM

Mote poll:

Now that illegal collusion between Kerry's campaign and CBS has been established regarding the forged Killian documents, is this justified if people dislike George Bush sufficiently?

10274. concerned - 9/21/2004 9:59:46 PM

They're political, but their feelings are much more intense than I ever recall before. It's a bit unsettling, for some reason.

Kerry's purple Kool Aid is more intense than I recall before.

10275. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:01:16 PM

Read How George Bush Has Launched PsyWar Against the US..

Message # 1380 in thread 161


Then tell us how you'd vote.

10276. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:05:38 PM

That's a line from the former comic strip, 'Pogo', isn't it?

10277. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:07:39 PM

I have to say here that nobody can ever again accuse CBS News of not being left leaning.

10278. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:11:23 PM

Re. 10275 -

jexster wouldn't know PsyWar if it bit him in his frontal lobes. MTV (a Viacom subsidiary) is running ads claiming that kids will be drafted (all Bush's fault, of course). That's PsyWar.

10279. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:19:22 PM

But the guy who wrote the article did

And BTW..when did you stop beating your wife?

The proper objection is: assumes lies not in evidence

10280. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:20:03 PM

And as a matter of fact I do know a wee bit about the subject///

About the writer
Sam Gardiner is a retired Air Force colonel who has taught strategy and military operations at the National War College, Air War College and Naval War College

10281. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:20:59 PM

and one helluva lot more about war and national defense than you which is why you won't answer the questions above...

too many facts in evidence

10282. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:21:59 PM

Nobody has put any questions to me that I'm aware of.

10283. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:24:43 PM

The GRU had a term for what you are trying to do right now

maskirovka

10284. clydefo - 9/21/2004 10:24:50 PM

Mote poll response:

"illegal collusion ...established" Is what justified? Have you come unhinged?

10285. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:25:25 PM

10264

10286. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:25:44 PM

From Drudge:

CBS DOC SOURCE SET TO SUE NETWORK FOR LIBEL
Wed Sep 22 2004 00:05:20 ET

Bill Burkett, the man identified yesterday by CBS as the source of the controversial documents used in its September 8 “60 Minutes II” report questioning President Bush’s Air National Guard service, plans to sue the network, the NY SUN reports.

Burkett has had “several meetings with lawyers to determine the best course of action.” The planned lawsuit would center on “defamation of character and libel.”

Mr. Burkett “told me everything about the process” of his dealings with CBS and how he came into possession of the documents at the heart of the controversy, a lawyer close to Burkett said.

The lawyer said the CBS News producer, Mary Mapes, promised to protect Mr. Burkett with complete anonymity and CBS was to “expend both time and money authenticating” the memos.

“Bill Burkett went with CBS News on this over ABC News, the New York Times, and the Washington Post because they promised to work the hardest to protect him and authenticate the documents. ,” Mr.Van Os told the Sun. “Bill leveled with [CBS] about his doubts over the papers, and they promised him they would take their time. They spent all of three days, maybe less, on authentication.”

Developing...

LOL @ C^BS

10287. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:25:51 PM

10256-58

10288. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:27:17 PM

That's what I mean Clyde..when did TD stop beating his wife?

and yes he has come unhinged in his continual efforts to turn the discussion away from anything Bush especially Iraq

10289. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:29:06 PM

Re. 10285 -

The answer to that is that I think the hysterically defeatist rhetoric from the Left regarding Iraq is disingenuous and merely calculated to damage GWB's chances at reelection.

That clear enough for you?

10290. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:31:59 PM

Hey jex - what's Mr. AWOL Vietnam Kerry gonna do when the Swift Boat Veterans crank out more ads hanging his sorry ass out to dry?

10291. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:34:36 PM

If anybody should be suing CBS News over the forged Killian documents, it should be GWB for libel and the Air National Guard for forging and disseminating military documents.

10292. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:35:49 PM

And probably the Kerry Campaign and the DNC should be among the defendants.

10293. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:36:16 PM

There's your PsyWars.

10294. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:37:55 PM

Let's assume some facts that are in evidence


__More Evidence of Bush-Blair Collusion to Trump up an Illegal War of Aggression

The Liberal Democrat leader, Charles Kennedy, led fresh
demands yesterday for Tony Blair to apologise for his handling of the Iraq war and its aftermath or risk having his reputation permanently tarnished by 'bad faith as well as bad judgment'. Mr Kennedy seized on weekend
disclosures of Whitehall papers confirming pre-war doubts about the consequences of the March 2003 invasion which has resulted in at least 10,000 Iraqi deaths and more than 1,000 among coalition forces.

The documents from the Cabinet Office and Foreign Office suggest that in March 2002 Mr Blair was concerned primarily about regime change rather than, as he subsequently said, weapons of mass destruction. Invasion simply for
regime change would have been contrary to international law.

The Foreign Office yesterday acknowledged the documents were genuine.

MOTE POLL:

Given that George Bush et al conspired to wage a war of aggression and their forces committed war crimes, should GWB et al be bound over for trial at the International Court of Criminal Justice?

10295. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:39:29 PM

I'd say that virtually all Michael Moore's output in 2004 is classifiable as PsyWars also.

I cannot ever recall such an intensive campaign of lies and innuendo against a sitting president. Not even in the case of Richard Nixon where some of it was arguably justified.

10296. jexster - 9/21/2004 10:41:13 PM

No see you don't know psyops from shinola..

Here's the real deal..real as in REALity
Military intelligence officials' prewar assertion when no WMD were found that Iraq had moved its weapons to Syria is another example of information denial. But although the Iraq Survey Group report to be released at the end of this month will announce once and for all that Iraq did not have WMD, the WMD argument already served its purpose in garnering support for the invasion. The important message now remains: Iraq = terrorists = 9/11.

The fog of war has not yet lifted. But when the strategy is to hide the war from the American people, rather than to get them to approve its instigation, fabrication is more difficult to sustain.

Karl von Clausewitz, the Prussian theorist of war, wrote, "War is an extension of politics by other means." When I taught Clausewitz to students at various military war colleges, I told them that he meant international politics. But I may have been wrong -- I fear war has become an extension of domestic politics, moving beyond influencing adversaries on the battlefield to influencing the decision making of friendly nations and, even more important, American public opinion. Why have the American people become the adversary?


I'd want to talk about anything but Bush, past present or future, if I were you too.

I will stick to the RESULTS THAT MATTER if ya don't mind

10297. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:43:35 PM

Re 10294 -

That will have to wait until after Xlowntoon stands trial at the International Court of Criminal Justice for his war of aggression and crimes against humanity in Kosovo.

10298. concerned - 9/21/2004 10:53:53 PM

Jex -

Can't you shed a tear for your fellow traveller Bill Burkett?
He's just as much as a lun----dedicated Democrat as you are, trying to get GWB out of the Oval Office, and now CBS News is Kerry Krapping all over the poor guy for his efforts.

10299. concerned - 9/21/2004 11:00:53 PM

Two names that CBS News is scared to death of: 'McCain-Feingold'.

10300. concerned - 9/21/2004 11:15:20 PM

Interesting fact about Mr. AWOL Kerry:

John Kerry did not receive an honorable discharge from the Navy until March 12, 2001, thirty years after he deserted the Navy and after he had already been a Massachusetts Senator for several years. If he hadn't taken advantage of his privileged position, he would still not have an honorable discharge to this day.

10301. concerned - 9/21/2004 11:22:10 PM

More interesting facts about the deserter Kerry (excerpt from 'Kerry's Despicable War Record', by Geoff Metcalfe):

On Feb. 18, 1966, John Kerry signed a six-year enlistment contract with the Navy (plus a six-month extension during wartime). He also signed an Officer Candidate contract for six years – five years of ACTIVE duty & ACTIVE Naval Reserves, and one year of inactive standby reserves.

Since Kerry was discharged from TOTAL ACTIVE DUTY after only three years and 18 days, on Jan. 3, 1970, he was then required to attend 48 drills per year and not more than 17 days of active duty for training. Most significant, however, is that Kerry was also subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

That means as a commissioned officer Kerry was prohibited from making adverse statements against his chain of command or statements against his country, especially during time of war.

On Jan. 3, 1970, Lt. John Kerry was transferred to the Naval Reserve Manpower Center in Bainbridge, Md. Therefore, there should be Performance Records for two years of obligated Ready Reserve, the 48 drills per year required and his 17 days of active duty per year training while Kerry was in the Ready Reserves.

Why haven't we seen these records of Senator Kerry's service between 1970 and 1972?

10302. concerned - 9/21/2004 11:25:36 PM

Further excerpt:

Kerry’s conduct as a Ready Reservist participating as a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War was criminal, some veterans now argue:

1. Lt. Kerry attended many rallies where the Vietcong flag was displayed while our flag was desecrated, defiled and mocked, thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
2. Lt. Kerry was involved in a meeting that voted on assassinating members of the U.S. Senate.
3. Lt. Kerry lied under oath against fellow soldiers before the U.S. Senate about crimes committed in Vietnam.
4. Lt. Kerry professed to being a war criminal on national television, and condemned the military and the USA.
5. Lt. Kerry met with NVA and Vietcong communist leaders in Paris, in direct violation of the UCMJ and the U.S. Constitution.

Lt. Kerry, by his own words and actions, violated the UCMJ and the U.S. Code while serving as a Navy officer. Failing a REAL good explanation, Lt. Kerry is in violation of Article 3, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution.

Lt. Kerry's 1970 meeting with NVA Communists in Paris is in direct violation of the UCMJ's Article 104 part 904, and U.S. Code 18 & U.S.C. 953. That meeting, and Kerry's subsequent support of the communists while leading mass protests against our military in the year that followed, also place him in direct violation of our Constitution's Article 3, Section 3, which defines treason as "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy in time of warfare.

The Constitution's 14th Amendment, Section 3, states, "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President ... having previously taken an oath ... to support the Constitution of the United States, [who has] engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

10303. concerned - 9/21/2004 11:26:03 PM

Three words that apply to Senator Gigolo:

'Unfit For Command'

10304. concerned - 9/21/2004 11:33:01 PM

Things may be getting decidedly unhealthy for Mary Mapes now that she can provide testimony that will probably doom whatever changes that Sen. Gigolo has left in November, as well as the damage she can do to CBS News.

It may be time for her to check into a witness protection program.

10305. concerned - 9/21/2004 11:35:51 PM

...chances, not changes...

10306. winstonsmith - 9/21/2004 11:42:48 PM

Concerned,

I really can't imagine what you could like about GWB.

Well, whatever your reasons for liking him, you must realize that Bush is hated by many Americans and, if he is reelected, those who hate him will batter, belittle and castigate him to the point that he will be unable to govern. The bloody carcass of his second term will be smeared across the ensuing 4 years like a dead possum drug behind a speeding car.

10307. concerned - 9/21/2004 11:59:29 PM

...those who hate him will batter, belittle and castigate him to the point that he will be unable to govern.

AFAIC, regardless of how much I may dislike a sitting president, I would not endorse any action that works against the interests of the US as a whole merely to spite him or her.

10308. winstonsmith - 9/22/2004 12:09:14 AM

Nor would I.

I want to keep him from doing any more damage.

The point is containment.

1. Keep his picks out of the courts.
2. Keep him from fucking up any more in Iraq or, god forbid, some other country.
3. Keep him from damaging the environment any more.
4. Keep him so weak that his ability to do damage to our country is limited.

10309. concerned - 9/22/2004 12:10:57 AM

For instance, I think Kerry was wrong to talk to the NV during the Vietnam War because it was easy to see that such encouragement of the enemy would result in its prolongation and the US loss fairly directly to the deaths of two million Cambodians. I most likely wouldn't endorse any similar action today, especially if the motive is nothing higher than to oppose a current administration.

10310. concerned - 9/22/2004 12:23:59 AM

Re. 10308 -

Well, I think 1, 2 and 4 are valid bases for advocacy within reason. Wrt 3, I am deeply skeptical of the claims of soi-disant environmental activists because I think they tend to be ignorant of what they talk about - therefore when they are listened to on any issue that isn't dead simple, their favored policies are either usually more damaging either environmentally or economically than necessary.

10311. winstonsmith - 9/22/2004 12:25:06 AM

It is Bush that screwed the pooch by going into Iraq. The deaths are on his head, at least, more than anyone else's.

Pointing out just how badly Bush screwed up in Iraq may may be a boon to the enemy, but what are we to do? Just pretend that it was a good idea and it's going well?

I am conviced that we are not safer. I am also convinced the money, material and lives could have been better spent working all around the world with our allies to track and infiltrate terrorist networks rather than blowing it all in Iraq. What a waste.

Bush screwed up really badly and he needs to loose his job over it.

10312. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:32:04 AM

The best way to fight the PsyOps of the BUsh Regime is with the truth.

Richard Clarke - remember him? - on The Daily Show tonight...


The paperback release of his book contains an Appendix of excerpts from the 9-11 Commission Report - that's the 911 commission, that Bush tried to kill - excerpts that show that the 911 Commission accepted everything that he says in the book as true

Now instead of debating our involvement in a war based on forged documents, flim-flam, and lies..what does Bush want us to do?

Talk about Dan Rather's documents...

Now instead of debating why we are killing IraQis who had nothing to do with WMD which never existed, nothing to do with 911, who fought Saddam, who weren't doing anything to us, Bush wants us to talk about whether CBS should can Rather...


You'd have to be a moron not to see what's going on here

10313. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:34:04 AM

Perhaps we should talk about phony documents..documents like Bush's certification to Congress on the day this war began which was totally untrue...

If you want to know what a high crime and misdemeanor is....look no further

10314. concerned - 9/22/2004 12:35:33 AM

Pointing out just how badly Bush screwed up in Iraq may may be a boon to the enemy, but what are we to do? Just pretend that it was a good idea and it's going well?

No, criticize as much as you want. You may be right that Iraq is a mistake, and if someone can implement a better policy at this point in time I, for one, won't oppose it. But, I think there a great deal to be said for making the strongest case logically for an alternative policy or making constructive criticism, simply because that approach is harder to dismiss or ridicule.

10315. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:36:06 AM

Instead of talking about the FACT that George Bush dodged service in Vietnam and then failed to perform his duties as a privileged son in TANG, what do they want to talk about?


A pack of lies invented by a group formed by Charles Colson, Nixon's dirty tricks man


Isn't it obvious what is going on here?

10316. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:37:06 AM

I say hold George Bush accountable for his lies and his war.

Sound reasonable?

10317. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:39:07 AM

I say we also ought to talk about GWB's culture war against gay people and whether or not he bears responsibilty for his prominent and ardent supporter Jimmy Swaggart's threats to murder gay men..

10318. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:41:24 AM

Call me Old School, but I think we should honor decorated Vietnam War heroes and cast a cold eye on sons of privilege too busy, too lazy, too high to serve in the national guard, and too dishonest, too cowardly to tell the truth

10319. winstonsmith - 9/22/2004 12:41:38 AM

Good night.

Way past time for me to go to bed.

10320. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:42:12 AM

That's not the Bush way..that's why George Bush is a menace to this nation and to the world..the world knows it, do we?

10321. concerned - 9/22/2004 12:42:43 AM

My objection was to third parties going directly to enemy leadership in some sort of unofficial quasi-diplomatic role during an armed struggle and effectively acting as their cheerleaders by condemning US policy or praising theirs. The big problem with this, ideology aside, is that it mostly ultimately tends to increase the body count, IMO, which isn't very smart.

10322. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:42:56 AM

Hold Bush accountable for what he's done

10323. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:49:49 AM

Surprise, surprise ...

"A year from now, I'll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush."

Richard Perle
AEI Keynote speech
September 22, 2003



-- Josh Marshall



1,037 Americans Died Because GWB Lied...These Brave Soldiers Died for Nothing - Hold Him Accountable

10324. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:50:46 AM

And WHO is UNFIT FOR COMMAND!

Jeezusaleezus

10325. jexster - 9/22/2004 12:51:17 AM

I am going to bed as well...

This country is in BIG trouble

10326. concerned - 9/22/2004 1:05:06 AM

How BIG a trouble is this country in, jexster?

10327. concerned - 9/22/2004 1:05:59 AM

Is it big, BIG, real BIG or extra Humongous?

10328. jexster - 9/22/2004 1:14:42 AM

Ain't THIS some shit


NEW YORK (Reuters) - President Bush (news - web sites), determined to put an optimistic face on deadly turmoil in Iraq (news -web sites), said on Tuesday that the CIA (news - web sites) was just guessing when it said the country was in danger of slipping into civil war.


Reuters Photo



"The CIA laid out several scenarios. It said that life could be lousy, life could be OK, life could be better. And they were just guessing as to what the conditions might be like," Bush told reporters during a picture-taking session with Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi.


Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites) assailed Bush's judgment, asking a rally in Orlando: "Ladies and gentlemen, does that make you feel safer? Does that give you confidence that this president knows what he's talking about?


"This is the president of the United States today standing in New York City where he was answering questions about Iraq and his speech to the United Nations (news - web sites)," Kerry told thousands of supporters in a basketball arena. "And this what the president of the United States of America -- in the midst of a war at a moment of danger -- said."


Fire that malignant moron..

10329. jexster - 9/22/2004 1:15:28 AM

MOTE POLL Td..


deep shit or

DEEP SHIT

10330. jexster - 9/22/2004 1:16:45 AM

Just guessing..who you gonna believe...that faux Texas bubba or your own lyin eyes?

Just guessing TD, ya understand..DEEP SHIT

10331. concerned - 9/22/2004 1:22:43 AM

Kinda short nap there?

10332. alistairconnor - 9/22/2004 1:38:08 AM

Con:

AFAIC, regardless of how much I may dislike a sitting president, I would not endorse any action that works against the interests of the US as a whole merely to spite him or her.

Careful... some of us knew you before 2000... have you perjured yourself?

10333. alistairconnor - 9/22/2004 1:44:42 AM

Message # 10321 Con :
If the actions of Kerry and others had an effect on the Vietnam war, it could only have been to shorten it, and hence decrease the body count, by hastening the end of the US intervention. Are you suggesting otherwise?

10334. thoughtful - 9/22/2004 6:31:09 AM

Con'd
I cannot ever recall such an intensive campaign of lies and innuendo against a sitting president.

Apparently then the clinton years were just a blur for you.

10335. judithathome - 9/22/2004 6:36:18 AM

Here is something I just HAD to see again fromMr. Centrist Concerned; he has such a short memory:

I cannot ever recall such an intensive campaign of lies and innuendo against a sitting president.

AND:

AFAIC, regardless of how much I may dislike a sitting president, I would not endorse any action that works against the interests of the US as a whole merely to spite him or her.

No, you were just content to lie about everything Clinton did...and did not do...so much so that to this very day you cannot stop belittling him and talking smack about his accomplishments.

10336. judithathome - 9/22/2004 6:42:03 AM

Well, that's what I get for posting before reading the next page of posts...I should have known his remarks were too ludicrous to let pass.


Here's more:

The big problem with this, ideology aside, is that it mostly ultimately tends to increase the body count, IMO, which isn't very smart.

Oh sure...it's no "Bring 'em on", that's obvious.

10337. Macnas - 9/22/2004 6:46:22 AM

I don't know about lies Con, not that I think there have not been any, (the recent hoax documents being touted by CBS are proof of that) I think the facts speak out pretty loud against GWB.

He was able to duck going to war for his country (like Clinton) because his daddy was able to fix things for him. What records there are indicate that he never took his home reserve duties seriously. Even if he did, he still used privilege to avoid Vietnam.

Kerry would have been able to duck out too, but he didn't. Away he went, now whatever he did or not do out there, I'm not sure of. I was not there to witness any of it and some who were have opposing views, so it'll never be clear. Much ado really, the fact is he comes out better than GWB in this respect, and all the spin in the world can't change this.

This reminds me, kind of as an aside, do you remember what Tom Delay said some years back when asked why he did not serve his country?
"So many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto, that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like myself."

10338. judithathome - 9/22/2004 6:49:15 AM

And of course, people worship DeLay and now want to slam Kerry for going.

Is this country insane or what?

10339. Macnas - 9/22/2004 6:57:40 AM

America? Insane? No not at all. Ye are just retreating into yourselves a bit, with a lot of people believing any old thing that sounds folky and downhome, makes you nod your head and "yep, thaht sounds 'bout raight t'me"

10340. jexster - 9/22/2004 6:57:56 AM

Just Guessing...


President Bush said Tuesday that the Iraqis are refuting the pessimists and implied that things are improving in that country.

What would America look like if it were in Iraq's current situation? The population of the US is over 11 times that of Iraq, so a lot of statistics would have to be multiplied by that number.

Thus, violence killed 300 Iraqis last week, the equivalent proportionately of 3,300 Americans. What if 3,300 Americans had died in car bombings, grenade and rocket attacks, machine gun spray, and aerial bombardment in the last week? That is a number greater than the deaths on September 11, and if America were Iraq, it would be an ongoing, weekly or monthly toll.

And what if those deaths occurred all over the country, including in the capital of Washington, DC, but mainly above the Mason Dixon line, in Boston, Minneapolis, Salt Lake City, and San Francisco?

What if the grounds of the White House and the government buildings near the Mall were constantly taking mortar fire? .....

What if municipal elections were cancelled and cliques close to the new "president" quietly installed in the statehouses as "governors?" What if several of these governors (especially of Montana and Wyoming) were assassinated soon after taking office or resigned when their children were taken hostage by guerrillas?

What if the leader of the European Union maintained that the citizens of the United States are, under these conditions, refuting pessimism and that freedom and democracy are just around the corner?


What If?
Informed Comment
Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion

Juan Cole - Professor of History at the University of Michigan

10341. jexster - 9/22/2004 7:02:14 AM

What if we had a real president and not a two bit Texas huckster with delusions of grandeur?

Sweet Nothings
Bush's U.N. speech offers platitudes instead of solutions Fred Kaplan, Slate

10342. alistairconnor - 9/22/2004 7:10:34 AM

Kerry just flip-flopped on top of Bush again...
Today's electoral college score : Kerry 269 Bush 253

10343. jayackroyd - 9/22/2004 7:13:55 AM

I'd just ignore the polls at this point. They've been way too unstable. I'm confident. We're gonna get a very heavy turnout. The only thing I'm worried about is fraud, voter intimidation and registrations being blocked:

On Monday, the International Herald Tribune reported that the Pentagon is restricting international access to the Web site for the Federal Voting Assistance Program, the official government agency that helps Americans living abroad register to vote in the November election.

According to the IHT, Americans who connect to the Internet using one of several foreign Internet service providers have reported difficulty logging in to the voting-assistance site. The Pentagon confirmed that it is blocking traffic from these ISPs -- which provide Internet service in 25 countries -- but it declined to say why.

News of the Pentagon's traffic-blocking immediately aroused alarm and suspicion among voting-rights activists, and it's not hard to see why. For the 6 million Americans living abroad, signing up to vote at home is a daunting task, a Byzantine process that differs for each citizen depending on his or her home state and even home county.

10344. jexster - 9/22/2004 7:19:25 AM

If Bush's reactions, plus those this board and more particularly the Fray are any indication, Kerry's new l'Attaque l'Irak is going to pay handsome dividends...

To sum the content..you essentially see Kerry and his supporters talking about the Iraq catastrophe and what to do about it on the one hand, and Bush supporters, on the other, talking about Dan Rather....You might even see a post or two about the sinking ScuzBucketVets..

And of course, we mustn't forget Georgie Guessing Game's lame bromides and malapropisms - "the Iraqi people fool the experts"


Nor forget his lies....

Here's another

In May..that is four months ago Bush asked Congress for 25 Billion as an "emergency fund" which he promised he'd not touch this year...



Bush Dips Into IraQ/Afghanistan Emergency Fund and the Bushies are saying Kerry is a pessimist; the CIA,just guessing; the IraQi people are the October Surprise, and we're turning the corner if only we'd stay the course on the roadmap.

10345. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/22/2004 7:34:21 AM

10346. jexster - 9/22/2004 7:41:54 AM

Now THAT's economy of expression Wiz...don't even need to spell check it

10347. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/22/2004 7:44:05 AM

Planet of the apes, Jex–planet of the apes!

10348. jexster - 9/22/2004 7:48:00 AM

Questions that answer themselves...


How BIG a trouble is this country in, jexster?

10327. concerned - 9/22/2004 8:05:59 AM

Is it big, BIG, real BIG or extra Humongous?

10349. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:10:55 AM

Re. 10335 -

JAH -

I didn't lie about anything Xlowntoon did. What is wrong with you that you can't remember that he was impeached and had to pay nearly a million in damages for his sexual predation?

10350. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:15:49 AM

Re. 10334 -

I don't recall somebody like Michael Moore making propanganda flicks specifically directed against the president and administration when Xlowntoon was in office.

I don't recall during the Xlowntoon years a MSM Network that ever descended to the level of shoddiness that CBS News has with their Killian forgeries in cooperation with the Kerry campaign and the DNC to try to tear down GWB.

Like I said, this level of attack against the president is unprecedented in my memory.

10351. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:17:06 AM

Re. 10336 -

Two million dead Cambodians say you don't know what you're talking about, JAH.

10352. RickNelson - 9/22/2004 9:20:23 AM

Without thinking about it, perhaps for a sitting president you're correct.

But, what about the Bushite attacks upon Kerry from that Swift Boat anti-Kerry ad campaign?

That was libellus.

Bush would have done right to stop that ad, whether he brought it on or not.

10353. Wombat - 9/22/2004 9:25:29 AM

The film made and sold on various right-wing sites about Clinton, his drug use, Mena and the allegedly mysterious deaths that took place when he was governor of Arkansas certainly didn't make the splash that Moore's film did, except among people like Concerned.

Mass media coverage of Clinton's difficulties was almost uniformly shoddy and dependent on unsourced and unverifiable innuendo from the blogosphere. When has Drudge ever apologized for getting a story wrong? (Actually he did when Sidney Blumenthal threatened to sue his ass over claims that he was a wife-beater.)

There is the real world, and then there is Bush-Concerned's little world where black is white and vice-versa.

10354. RickNelson - 9/22/2004 9:27:51 AM

The situations regarding the Cambodian genocide were different than that regarding Iraq and the terrorist infrastructure.

Terrorist operate with technology and wide ranging capability. With new defensive measures we can hope this is reduced, but the Iraqi situation is such that with incitement comes increased hostilities. Iraq is a new training ground for insurgency and terrorists at this point. It isn't likely to stay that way, but for the short term it's telling of how poorly planned operations create new messes.

10355. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:28:47 AM

It'd be a violation of their Constitutional rights for GWB to selectively shut down ads by 527 groups such as the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth in the manner you propose.

If Kerry thinks their ads are libelous, OTOH, he's perfectly free to haul their asses into court.

Also, you would be wrong to assume that those ads were produced in collaboration with the WH in the first place.

10356. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:32:08 AM

Wombat -


I never saw the film you refer to, so leave me out of your sick fantasies.

10357. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:38:33 AM

Mass media coverage of Clinton's difficulties was almost uniformly shoddy and dependent on unsourced and unverifiable innuendo from the blogosphere.

That's more of your total bullshit, Wombats -

The Xlowntoon WH had the strong support of the MSM through his two terms, plus the availability of all the PR resources of the Federal government, among which was the Press Secretary to provide the administration's position on every possible issue directly to the WH press corps.

10358. RickNelson - 9/22/2004 9:39:17 AM

There are back doors to the WH.

As for the first amendment, flag drapping bit, no, he would have enough pull and say to insist that the ad campaign was not consistent with his presidential bid. Would they please pull the ad. Then advertise that he said this much.

That would have been enough for me. But, nooooooooo.

10359. Macnas - 9/22/2004 9:39:39 AM

Sounds familiar....

10360. alistairconnor - 9/22/2004 9:40:09 AM

Con :
Two million dead Cambodians say thank you Mr Kissinger, thank you Mr Nixon.

Thank you JFK, while we're at it. He started the whole sorry adventure, didn't he?

10361. Macnas - 9/22/2004 9:40:34 AM

Sorry, my 10359 was in ref. to con's 10357.

10362. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:42:36 AM

Re. 10358 -

Is there anything materially false in those ads that you are concerned about, RN? If not, it would seem to be a non-starter to attempt to prevent them from being aired.

10363. Wombat - 9/22/2004 9:44:07 AM

More accurately, Concerned, is there anything in the Swift Boat ads that is materially true?

10364. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:44:56 AM

AC -

I'm saying that if the US had prevailed in Vietnam which we now know very nearly was the case with Communist sympathizers like Kerry most likely tipping the balance the other way, there would have been no Pol Pot in Cambodia and no massacre.

What part of that don't you get?

10365. Wombat - 9/22/2004 9:46:00 AM

How did we very nearly prevail in Vietnam?

10366. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:46:30 AM

That's not to say that I think the US should have gotten militarily involved in Vietnam in the first place, which I don't and blame LBJ for. But I more strongly oppose deliberately losing a war unnecessarily.

10367. RickNelson - 9/22/2004 9:47:23 AM

As for libel suits? How much time does kerry have for frivolous lawsuits? That ad was about many fringe veterans to his service. Those who might have seen him on his boat, but never have been with him. This is hearsay, so, iiibbb can say whether that is suit worthy, but by my definition it's libel.

Dubya is against frivolous lawsuits. He doesn't want the rich HMO's to be sued for denial of service to the poor or misinformed. That is just frivolous of them to even consider that denial of health service in the face of impending tragic health consequences be worthy of a lawsuit.

Or the missdiagnosed patient who consequently becomes disabbled, should not consider a frivolous law suit. No, they're compensation should be set to a ceiling dictated by a faith based White House who'se policy is "Heal Thy Self Heathen"! (Of course I'm making that up for affect-- it corresponds to the rest of my sarcasm).

10368. RickNelson - 9/22/2004 9:50:01 AM

We don't have time to make an inquest into those ads concerned. I'm way to busy to relive them. I ignored them after the first sound bite. And don't tell me then how would I know? I read articles which made sense about the way these veterans who didn't serve directly with Kerry libeled his service and the medals he deserved.

The medal issue would be material, but it's hashed to death.

10369. Wombat - 9/22/2004 9:51:10 AM

When were we winning in Vietnam, Concerned?

10370. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:51:52 AM

RN -

Why wouldn't there be time for Kerry to get a cease and desist court order against the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth?

10371. RickNelson - 9/22/2004 9:53:52 AM

I will defer legal reactions to iiibbb, who may or may not ever visit them. I would think that a judge might consider a cease and desist part an parcel aligned with a libel suit. But, I don't know.

10372. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:57:00 AM

Re. 10369 -

Given the US advantage in direct combat throughout the Vietnam War, psychological aid and comfort to the NV by the likes of Kerry assume additional prominence. Without that, NV would probably have negotiated an honest peace, hence no Pol Pot, etc.

10373. Wombat - 9/22/2004 9:57:15 AM

In the United States it is very difficult for a prominent public figure such as John Kerry (or George Bush) to successfully fight and win a libel case. Concerned is being disingenuous as usual.

10374. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:58:59 AM

Too bad Wombats doesn't know what a court order is. What a schmuck.

10375. Wombat - 9/22/2004 10:01:33 AM

Concerned:

You mean like the Tet Offensive, when US and ARVN forces ultimately beat back massive coordinated attacks from an enemy that, according to US calculations based on body counts, should not have existed at all?

10376. concerned - 9/22/2004 10:08:13 AM

Wombat -

Read this and weep:

North Vietnamese Col. Bui Tin, who served under Gen. Giap on the general staff of the North Vietnamese army, received South Vietnam's unconditional surrender on April 30, 1975.

In an interview with the Wall Street Journal after his retirement, Col. Tin explicitly credited leaders of the U.S. anti-war movement, saying they were "essential to our strategy."

"Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9AM to follow the growth of the antiwar movement," Col. Tin told the Journal.

Visits to Hanoi by Kerry anti-war allies Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and others, he said, "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

"We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war," the North Vietnamese military man explained.

from Newsmax


Both Gen. Giap and Col. Tin cited the US anti-war movement, including particulary Kerry & his organization and Jane Fonda's antics as being essential for their success in causing the US to pull out & in defeating the South Vietnamese govt..

Tell you what, Wombats. I'll take their word for it because they're simply the best authorities possible on the matter, and I'll just call bullshit on anything you have to say otherwise.

Sound fair? I think so.

10377. alistairconnor - 9/22/2004 10:09:02 AM

Without that, NV would probably have negotiated an honest peace

riiiight

hence no Pol Pot, etc.

No, you can thank Nixon and Kissinger for Pol Pot, etc. They toppled a benign post-colonial Cambodian regime to replace it with their puppet, who subsequently collapsed before the Khmer Rouge. Who were enemies of the Vietnamese communists (I don't expect you to remember, or even understand, this, but there it is).

And it was the Vietnamese Communist regime which cleaned up after Kissinger by routing Pol Pot.

10378. concerned - 9/22/2004 10:13:51 AM

Re. 10377 -

I don't expect you to remember or even understand that China backed Pol Pot as a countermeasure to the Soviet supported NV's win and regional increase in influence in SV after the Americans left. But, if the US had held on in SV, China wouldn't have had the opening or seen the necessity of installing Pol Pot.

10379. RickNelson - 9/22/2004 10:17:54 AM

So, you're saying that anti-war leaders unwittingly played into the hands of North Vietnamese propaganda and thereby are to be correctly labeled as part of their strategy?

I have one problem with that. The work of propaganda. Propaganda is always going to wind its way around the truth like a boa tightening upon its prey.


Saying that the NV used the anti-war porpaganda to incite their followers doesn't add up to being the reason for failure and pull-out of the Vietnam conflict. Again it's inuendo and unqualifiable. The word of a NV colonel doesn't mean other than they used the anti-war movement for propaganda and that is their prerogative. The movement is not the cause of failure in the war.

10380. Wombat - 9/22/2004 10:19:20 AM

Concerned:

The antiwar movement mushroomed in the US when it became clear that contrary to what was claimed by the US governemnt, US forces were not winning the war. The US was not winning in spite of a massive deployment of US forces, massive applications of US firepower (often against civilians) in support of a government that was not exactly an exemplar of liberal democracy. That is what John Kerry saw while he was in Vietnam.

According to Westmoreland, the Vietcong should not have been capable of launching the Tet Offensive. He arrived at this conclusion based on "intelligence" that used body counts as the basis for its assumptions of unit and troop strength.

10381. Wombat - 9/22/2004 10:22:03 AM

After withdrawing from Vietnam, the US aligned itself with China against Vietnam, thus tacitly supporting the Khmer Rouge as well.

10382. Wombat - 9/22/2004 10:24:33 AM

Maybe not so tacitly, either. Did the US ever pressure Thailand to try and shut down Khmer Rouge sanctuaries along the Thai-Cambodian border?

10383. concerned - 9/22/2004 10:29:12 AM

So, you're saying that anti-war leaders unwittingly played into the hands of North Vietnamese propaganda and thereby are to be correctly labeled as part of their strategy?

I don't know that it was an a priori strategy per se, but I'm really only repeating what the NV military leaders are on record as having said, and they further stated that it was 'essential' to their eventual success.

10384. concerned - 9/22/2004 10:30:15 AM

In taking over SV, that is.

10385. concerned - 9/22/2004 10:31:50 AM

Re. 10381 -

As this may be the case, it certainly still does not justify AC's piling on Kissinger and Nixon to the exclusion of everything else.

10386. concerned - 9/22/2004 10:35:10 AM

RN -

It's possible that if GWB had asked the Swift Boat Veterans to cease their advertising campaign, they might have done so. I don't know. But my guess is that the years long assault from the Left, and more recently from Kerry on his ANG record took his motivation for doing so away.

10387. robertjayb - 9/22/2004 10:42:34 AM

If concerned's sore toe hadn't kept him from military duty and therefore any chance of service in the war he seems now to both revere and regret he might have paid closer attention to the events of the time and he might, just might, see the ignorance, arrogance, and hubris of that era being tragically replayed today.

For a concise but painful overview of the sad subject see "Fog of War," the Robert S. McNamara documentary.

It will inform you as it breaks your heart.

10388. iiibbb - 9/22/2004 10:59:52 AM

Message # 10371

In 5 years on the mote I have never been drug into an argument I wasn't involved... I'm touched.

The Vietnam stuff is irrelevant to me... it is not really going to influence my vote.

I think the anything goes nature of campaigning has gotten out of hand... from M.Moore to Dan Rather to The Swiftboaters... The visciousness of the mudslinging has gotten to the point is is exceedingly difficult to filter truth from lies.

As a result, if you can catch someone lying and decieving the public when it comes to this particular matter... I don't consider it frivolous at all to have a lawsuit. I don't consider any lawsuits that catch liars to be frivolous in general...

...the lawsuits I consider frivolous are the ones that don't hold the 'victims' culpable for their own hand in their own misfortune due to their own stupidity (e.g. smokers, coffee in the lap holders). I also consider lawsuits frivolous when a true victim goes after the deep pockets rather than the individual responsible for their injuries (e.g. trying to hold gun manufactures responsible for individual criminal's behaivior).

10389. thoughtful - 9/22/2004 12:07:57 PM

just checked in and I see the rove-meister's plan is working just fine....keep everyone, left and right, focused on vietnam and no one will notice that all around them is crumbling thanks to this administration:
o iraq
o environment
o jobs picture
o deficit
o international comity
o risk of terrorism
o rich getting rich, poor getting poorer
o health care coverage
o quality of education
and on and on and on

10390. KuligintheHooligan - 9/22/2004 12:08:03 PM

A 1973 email from Lt. Col. Jerry Killian's Yahoo! email account to Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges seems to confirm the authenticity of the disputed Bush National Guard documents, according to CBS News and Dan Rather.


New York, Sept. 19, 2004
(CBS/Pair o' D News) CBS News has obtained an email written by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, George W. Bush's Commander in the Texas Air National Guard, to Major General Bobby Hodges, Killian's immediate superior, which tends to confirm the authenticity of disputed documents that CBS News obtained from Killian's personal file earlier this month. The email, sent on August 24, 1973, appears to have been sent from Killian's Yahoo! email address, lieutenantjerrykillian@yahoo.com, to an email address belonging to Hodges, majorgeneralbobbyhodges@yahoo.com.

In the email, Killian specifically mentions all four of the disputed documents that CBS News previously obtained from an unimpeachable source. Said CBS News President Andrew Heyward, "Our source for the email is totally unimpeachable, impregnable, and unavailable, so don't even think about questioning it." [CONT]

10391. KuligintheHooligan - 9/22/2004 12:08:47 PM

Dan Rather, managing editor of CBS News, stated, "This latest document confirms what we already know, and what CBS News has been reporting all along: George W. Bush received preferential treatment to get into the Texas Air National Guard, and failed to live up to the expectations of the Guard while he served." Rather added, "We know that some, including partisan political operatives and Karl Rove, will continue to dispute the authenticity of the Killian files. But one look at this 1973 email should convince all but the most partisan observers. For the record, we are also trying to confirm the authenticity of some instant messages that Killian sent to Bush in 1972 regarding his annual medical examination." [CONT]

10392. KuligintheHooligan - 9/22/2004 12:09:00 PM

The email corroborates key parts of the story that aired on 60 Minutes II on September 8, 2004. For example, the email mentions that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was pressuring Hodges to "sugar coat" then-Lt. Bush's rating, that Killian ordered Lt. Bush to report for his annual physical, and that Killian suspended Bush's flight status after he missed his physical. The email also confirms that Bush received preferential treatment to get into the Guard.

Soon after this story was posted, several "bloggers" questioned the authenticity of the email, noting that Yahoo! wasn't founded until 1994, and commercial email didn't come into existence until 1989. In fact, almost every expert consulted by CBS News for this story questioned the email's authenticity.

But Dick Kratz, a technology consultant who authenticated the email for CBS News, noted that someone would have to go "out of their way" to create fake email accounts with the names of Lt. Col. Killian and Maj. Gen. Hodges. "You would have had to create two separate email accounts, with two passwords."

CBS News also contacted Al Gore, the inventor of the internet, regarding the documents. He issued the following statement: "While I cannot say for certain, the email in question probably verifies that I invented email well before August 24, 1973."

10393. robertjayb - 9/22/2004 12:27:19 PM

Kuligin had a funny! Well done. It becomes you.

10394. robertjayb - 9/22/2004 12:51:05 PM

via bartcop.com:

10395. alistairConnor - 9/22/2004 1:18:31 PM

Con:

As this may be the case, it certainly still does not justify AC's piling on Kissinger and Nixon to the exclusion of everything else.

If only you had a scroll wheel on your mouse, you could back up a bit and confirm that you attempted to lay 2 million Cambodian dead at Kerry's door. A bit of a stretch.

I am excluding nobody and nothing; there's plenty of blame to share around. But with respect to the destruction of Cambodia, Kissinger and Nixon undoubtedly bear a heavier responsibility than any other Americans.

10396. jexster - 9/22/2004 1:27:34 PM

Booze and Bush
By Bob Kendall
09/22/04

Never before in the history of the United States of America have we had a President who admits he drank heavily until he was 40, as Bush freely admitted in an interview with Barbara Walters. He claimed he quit “cold turkey”, I believe after his “Born Again” claim.

I rented apartments for many years, and I would never trust an individual whose brain had been subjected to years of liquor consumption. Why would I trust the most powerful political position in the world to a President who admitted publicly he was a heavy drinker until he was 40?

Has the nation gone stark raving mad to try to tell us that there is no one but this former booze hound to lead us out of the darkness he created in the invasion and occupation of Iraq? The people of Iraq haven’t fallen for his failings. Why should the voters of the U.S. be blinded by party loyalty?

With the Bush Administration subjecting future generations to the greatest national debt in our history, with an administration whose hands are laden with bribes from the pharmaceutical companies, who have joined together with our elected congressmen to consider it a crime to order cheaper drugs from Canada. What on earth is making the citizenry vote against their freedom to obtain drugs at the cheaper prices available all over the world?

10397. jexster - 9/22/2004 1:28:19 PM

TD..."Swift Boat Swill" is in Lies...

Thinkin of you

10398. concerned - 9/22/2004 2:07:44 PM

10399. concerned - 9/22/2004 2:10:34 PM

10400. concerned - 9/22/2004 2:10:55 PM

That last one was for jexster.

10401. concerned - 9/22/2004 2:12:41 PM

10402. jexster - 9/22/2004 2:21:27 PM

Kerry Media Corps Assignment - Iraq Realities

San Francisco Chronicle:

The New York Times recently broke the story that a National Intelligence Estimate assessment of conditions in Iraq pointed to that sad country's steady slide toward civil war. Yesterday, George Bush, appearing before the UN, in answer to reporters' questions dismissed the NIE's bleak assessment saying that this government's intelligence experts were "just guessing" and that the Iraqi people would confound the experts.

At the same time Bush announced that the Pentagon would have to dip into emergency funds appropriated by Congress for Afghanistan and Iraq, funds which four months ago, his officials assured Congress would nto be needed this year.

"Just guessing"?

My "guess" is that Bush is once again not being straight with the American people. My "guess" is that this is precisely how Bush got the country into this mess. My vote is to hold Bush accountable for his guesses. My vote is for John Kerry.

Sincerely,

10403. jexster - 9/22/2004 2:22:56 PM

A Growing number of soldiers supporting Kerry and swift withdrawal from Iraq
Message # 1393 in thread 161

10404. thoughtful - 9/22/2004 3:24:55 PM

What's the price of your vote? Will $145.7 Billion do it?

Overriding Democratic objections that further tax cuts should be offset to keep the 's deficit woes from worsening, Republican tax writers worked Wednesday to add business tax breaks to a package originally dealing only with middle-class taxpayers. ....

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, predicted the Senate would quickly follow suit, giving President Bush a major legislative victory just weeks before the presidential election.

10405. judithathome - 9/22/2004 3:48:31 PM

but I'm really only repeating what the NV military leaders are on record as having said, and they further stated that it was 'essential' to their eventual success.

And this couldn't possibly be them sayng this stuff in hindsight, huh? This HAS to be true because they said it and that is that.

10406. concerned - 9/22/2004 4:44:03 PM

Besides their being the best authorities in existence, there's the fact that it's if anything, against their self interest to give such credit to others, particularly wet behind the ears American useful idiots like Kerry.

10407. judithathome - 9/22/2004 4:48:44 PM

Despite their being the best authorities, they might be less than truthful, whether that enters into the realm of your understanding or not. Have you never heard of gloating? You should have; you seem to be a master of it.

10408. concerned - 9/22/2004 4:50:43 PM

What in this universe are you referring to, JAH?

10409. jexster - 9/22/2004 4:54:33 PM

Bush "Loses" 12% in Polls
New ARG Polls Have the Race Very, Very Close

ARG is polling all 50 states and DC on the race for president and today they released the final 30 or so of these polls. Here's how ARG summarized what their data had to say (but check out all their data at their website):

How close is the race for president?
George W. Bush is at 47% and John Kerry is at 46% in the weighted national popular vote.

Bush leads outside the margin of error in 17 states with 133 electoral votes.

Kerry leads outside the margin of error in 10 states with 132 electoral votes.

Bush has any lead in 29 states with 253 electoral votes.

Kerry has any lead in 20 states with 270 electoral votes.

Bush and Kerry are tied in Wisconsin and West Virginia.

Bush needs to defend small leads in 5 states - Colorado, Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire, and Ohio.

Kerry needs to defend small leads in 5 states - Maine, Florida, Minnesota, Oregon, and Pennsylvania.

Among men nationwide, 51% say they would vote for Bush and 42% say they would vote for Kerry.

Among women nationwide, 42% say they would vote for Bush and 50% say they would vote for Kerry.

10410. jexster - 9/22/2004 4:54:39 PM

And here's a brief take from Alan Abramowitz on these data:

The results of the new 50-state ARG poll appear to be very much in line with other recent polls in the same states. Using today's National Journal Scoreboard, I found other polls conducted by independent, nonpartisan, or bipartisan polling organizations during approximately the same time period in 22 states. On average, support for George Bush was 0.6 points lower and support for John Kerry was 1.8 points higher in the ARG poll compared with the poll conducted closest in time to the ARG poll.
ARG's conclusion that the national race is a virtual dead heat is consistent with the results of other recent state polls conducted by independent, bipartisan, and nonpartisan polling organzations.


Alan promises a more detailed analysis on Friday, so look for his further thoughts then.. Ruy Teixeira

10411. arkymalarky - 9/22/2004 4:59:06 PM

AFAIC, regardless of how much I may dislike a sitting president, I would not endorse any action that works against the interests of the US as a whole merely to spite him or her.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!! Like an IMPEACHMENT, maybe? I know, removal from office would have been better for the country in your fevered brain!

Hehehe...hooohoooo...snort!

You are just too funny, Con'd.

Really.

10412. judithathome - 9/22/2004 5:03:10 PM

What in this universe are you referring to, JAH?

To your post directly above mine. Not that difficult to grasp, since I referred to it in the first sentence of my own.

10413. arkymalarky - 9/22/2004 5:04:01 PM

This reminds me, kind of as an aside, do you remember what Tom Delay said some years back when asked why he did not serve his country?
"So many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto, that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like myself."

For real? What a scum-sucker. Don't know why it should stand out from everything else he's done, though.

10414. jexster - 9/22/2004 5:05:34 PM

That's a " twelve point" drop in less than a week....


Damn TD, better put away the swiftboats and break out the life boats

10415. jexster - 9/22/2004 5:06:54 PM

Absolutely Arky...as an angry white man myself, how are you at baking?

What about Arkansas Fried Chitterlins?

10416. arkymalarky - 9/22/2004 5:10:12 PM

I love the pretzel logic that exerting our rights of free speech and participation in the system endanger our free speech and our system.

10417. jexster - 9/22/2004 6:10:44 PM

That ARG poll's sample n=30,000 for all 50 states surveyed

10418. jexster - 9/22/2004 6:12:02 PM

and arky its Bush +3 with 5% undecided in AR..git to werk

10419. wonkers2 - 9/22/2004 6:16:41 PM

Concerned, Bush is a failed president--in Iraq, in foreign policy (unilateralist, alienation of our allies), in dealing with terrorism, in economic policy (the debt and lack of job creation), in education, in the environment, in scientific policy (limits on stem cell research), etc. Please, if you can think of one, name a single thing Bush has done right.

10420. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/22/2004 6:29:47 PM

Isn't it amazing? This fool has proven his incompetence at every fork in life's road. Daddy and his cronies have literally told him what to do or saved his ass when he screwed up and dunderheads like Connie just can't seem to see the obvious . . . and the obvious is there under everyone's nose for all to see . . .

Portrait of George Bush in '72: Unanchored in Turbulent Time

10421. jexster - 9/22/2004 6:35:18 PM

What happened to Bill Russell????


ARG

Nader - 1%

Nailed it Bill...we'll see how low he can go...if the race stays tight, it is a sure bet he'll be <1% and a total non-factor

If Kerry breaks the race open, he'll still be a non-factor tho he might do 2%...

10422. jexster - 9/22/2004 6:36:20 PM

Wonk..why do you think they want the election to turn on whether Kerry shot himself to get out of Vietnam?

10423. jexster - 9/22/2004 7:00:23 PM

Big Article on Rove and the Politics of Putrescence Coming out Next Week

The article in today's Post on the indictments of three top aides to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay mentions that one of them is John Colyandro....

What it doesn't mention is that Colyandro is a one-time right-hand-shark to Karl Rove.

In fact Colyandro was at the center of one of Rove's uglier dirty-tricks from his Texas political days -- a story that is told in all its lizardly detail in a magazine article that's coming out about Rove next week.

Actually, after reading the article, you'll start to see that the whole Swift Boat business was pretty mild for what Rove is capable of.

If (or maybe 'when'?) he really wanted to lower the boom, or imitate past practice, we'd probably be hearing that Kerry was running his Swift Boat like an after-party for a Village People concert circa 1979. Or that when Kerry really wanted to party on the Delta he'd head to the local orphanage for a good time.

-- Josh Marshall

10424. arkymalarky - 9/22/2004 7:12:49 PM

and arky its Bush +3 with 5% undecided in AR..git to werk

Hey, I'm still busy saving schools around here. I'm preaching to the choir in my part of the state. People need to get hoppin' in Wal-Mart country.

10425. arkymalarky - 9/22/2004 7:13:08 PM

But Nader isn't going to be on the ballot. Heh heh.

10426. jexster - 9/22/2004 8:36:55 PM

Waa you live in that freaky pinko part of the state around Hot Springs????

How come that place is so liberal?

Outside of the French Quarter, South Beach Miami, I don't think there's anything quite like it anywhere in the south..not to mention a totally backward chicken fried state like AR

10427. wonkers2 - 9/22/2004 8:45:42 PM

Jex, true. BTW, I'm going to be in San Francisco next week. Are you in the phone book? I'll be watching my three kids sail in a 3-day regatta Oct 1-3, but there should be time to get together for lunch or a beer?? Are you in the phone book? (Wabbit & Arky have my email address.)

10428. concerned - 9/22/2004 9:30:59 PM

Re. 10425 -

Disenfranchisement! Let every vote count, whether it's for Nader or whomever!

10429. alistairconnor - 9/23/2004 4:45:37 AM

Today's essay on electoral-vote.com is a good example of why I visit this site every day.

Do I take it seriously? No but :
* I love brightly-coloured maps, and this one changes every day
* I'm getting quite good at identifying states from their two-letter codes
* I can now locate some easy-to-forget states like Nebraska or Idunno
* And today, as a bonus, we've got a really interesting essay of political fiction. Did you know that Colorado is running a referendum on a proportional split of the electoral-college vote, effective immediately if it passes? meaning that it would go 5-4 rather than 9-0 either way ...?

10430. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 5:06:51 AM

The Colorado amendment if combined with a second in a row electoral vote winner losing the popular vote (only this time, if that happened it would be Kerry on top), could sweep the nation, with dire consequences for the two-party system. If this had been in place, a candidate like Perot could well turn into a power broker, allowing a third party to be something besides a one shot deal.

For that reason, you will see a great deal of opposition from the politburo that the Senate and the House have become. (According to the economist, out of 435 House seats, 30 are in play.)

10431. OhioSTOPAS - 9/23/2004 6:06:39 AM

There's going to be some serious lawyering beginning November 3 if the Colorado referendum passes and the difference between winner-takes-all (9 votes to winner) and proportionate allotment of electors (likely 5-4) makes a decisive difference in the overall electoral vote count.

But I'll go out on a limb and predict that Bush will win in the U.S. Supreme Court. By coincidence, the vote will also be either 9-0 or 5-4.

10432. RickNelson - 9/23/2004 7:19:46 AM

concerned 10428: Funny

10433. RickNelson - 9/23/2004 7:40:11 AM

The newest Bushite ad from the lieing liers and the liers that tell them states that Kerry's tax plan will increase taxes to small business owners stiffling their ability to grow.

Noooooooooo, it's to repeal that huge tax cuts to corporations which send jobs overseas as a quick fix. CEO's and the like who are clueless business idiots who look for silver linings overseas don't deserve tax help. The lost good will from consumers who have spent time talking to customer service reps 8,000 miles away has uncalculable impact. Good will is a viable business asset.

Also reported today is that the U.S. is second to China for foreign investment. The U.S. is down some 60-80 billion from foreign investment for '03. Kinda haunts you doesn't it Bush voter? Bush votes mean lost jobs and huge deficits which will destroy social security, inflate medicare payments and stiffle American citizens standard of living.

American's must unite against Bush's policies. He is wrong for America. The economy is proof.

10434. RickNelson - 9/23/2004 7:46:54 AM

Oh, and as I've said time and again, there is no tax cut! Again my city is coming to the voters for a referendum to find money which Minnesota state mandate took away. That's right, republican governor Pawwwwwwwwwwwwlenty took mandate funds away from our schools and now they are trying to get it back from the local citizens. The state's mandate to provide affordable education only applies to those richer cities whose citizens tax base provides necessary weight with representatives. Therefore my taxes are very likely to rise for the fourth straight year. Ventura the independent smarmy marmy meelly mouthed funkenheimer stupeeeeeeeedo started this mess and Pawwwwwwwwwwlenty is riding the wave of change for his cronies.

I'm so sick of his (Pawlenties) schtick about the world is changing at a hundred miles an hour and we have to keep up. Jayzuz F'nheimer that is sooooooo f'n lame I puke on him. I projectile puke upon his face and clothes front, green slimy projectile puke- allllll over him.

10435. RickNelson - 9/23/2004 7:54:41 AM

Regressive tax cuts make me sick.


My school district lost nearly 2 million in public education funding. That's an immense amount of money for schools to lose. I've read of head start cuts, lost teachers, larger class size, fewer equipment upgrades, lost extracurricular activities, etc...

I give to every student who comes to my door asking for help for soccor, field hockey, cross country running and skiing, theatre, football, tennis, etc... The car wash stands are up every weekend with hopeful students trying to stave off the cut of their program. It's making me sicker. Don't think I haven't labelled my charity to the students as another tax. It is a tax. Stupid Bushites.

10436. RickNelson - 9/23/2004 7:57:28 AM

Long live Air America and the Al Franken show, Oh yeah, Give it to 'em Al! 1530 AM in the Twin Cities 10-2pm daily. Oi oi oi ditto head reality was never so good.

10437. jexster - 9/23/2004 7:57:35 AM

Wonk ... well welcome to the land of the 55 EV's, the Fifteen Percent Kerry Lead and the 90% KerryTown.

Unlisted. Jmac@sfsu.edu tell me how to get in touch...I no doubt will be in a last minute scramble to get my thesis prospectus on file by 10/4 but hopefully most of that will be this weekend so yeah send an email an I'll shoot you the number

10438. OhioSTOPAS - 9/23/2004 8:01:23 AM

I suspect that the grain of truth behind the Bush advertisement's claim that Kerry proposes to "raise taxes on 900,000 small business owners" is that there are that many high-income individuals who happen to be small business owners. Kerry proposes that income taxes on high-income individuals be raised, whether that income is from a small business or otherwise.

Thus, Kerry does literally propose increasing taxes for X thousand small business owners. But the suggestion that the proposed Kerry tax would hit anyone BY REASON OF their being a small business owner is false. Nor would the proposed Kerry tax touch the majority of small businesses in which the owner clears less than, say, $200,000 per year.

10439. jexster - 9/23/2004 8:01:48 AM

Wonk ... well welcome to the land of the 55 EV's, the Fifteen Percent Kerry Lead and the 90% KerryTown.

Unlisted. Jmac@sfsu.edu tell me how to get in touch...I no doubt will be in a last minute scramble to get my thesis prospectus on file by 10/4 but hopefully most of that will be this weekend so yeah send an email an I'll shoot you the number

10440. RickNelson - 9/23/2004 8:03:40 AM

That's reality Ohio. Good info, thanks.

10441. jexster - 9/23/2004 8:05:41 AM

Nor would it hit small buisiness owners who pay their employees decent wages and benefits or those who reinvest their money in growing their enterprises nor in the end at these historically low tax rates would Kerry's tax plan curb investment that otherwise might be made under the Bush tax plan

It might hurt SUV sales

10442. jexster - 9/23/2004 8:06:44 AM

The net effect of any redistribution will be to spur, not retard economic growth

10443. jexster - 9/23/2004 8:35:04 AM

BUSH in Free Fall...

Down 14% in ONE Week

Details in Lies
Message # 1400 in thread 161

10444. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:00:32 AM

Re. 10442 -

IOW, jexster is saying that a large Federal bureaucracy is essential to a healthy economy.

10445. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:03:07 AM

We already HAVE a large Federal bureaucracy idiot..in fact Bush has made it even bigger

What I am saying is we don't need the largest deficits in US history

10446. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 9:04:22 AM

10444

At least he and Bush agree on something.

10447. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:05:27 AM

That would be in YOUR words, not mine, not other - yours

For in fact Bush has proposed one billion more in new spending than Kerry..this according to figures prepared by the BUsh Regime

10448. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:06:05 AM

I think the Repuglicans should stick to Dan Rather

10449. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:07:46 AM

Kerry has had little to say up until now. Now, he doesn't even have the voice to say it, it appears. The upside for Kerry is that when his voice comes back, he can flip-flop on what Edwards has had to say in his stead.

Kerry had better hope his laryngitis improves before the debates. I doubt he'll come across at all well against GWB, especially if he sounds like he's squeaking and sucking wind throughout the entire debate.

10450. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:08:45 AM

I think Dan Rather is sticking it to the 'Rats quite effectively, myself. Unintentionally, of course.

10451. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:12:05 AM

Kerry tries to step it up and his voice craps out.


'Rats.

10452. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:12:27 AM

He riles the wingnuts...the sane pay attention to RESULTS THAT MATTER

That's why Bush has dropped 14% in a week

Keep it up Dan!

10453. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:13:48 AM

No doubt Jexster & the DU types will find a way to blame Karl Rove for Kerry's laryngitis.

10454. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 9:13:49 AM

The upside for Kerry is that when his voice comes back, he can flip-flop

Document a flip flop, concerned. I'll match you two for one from Bush.

10455. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:15:09 AM

$1 Billion a week to slaughter IraQis for nothin

10456. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:15:34 AM

Jay -

That's a game you can play by yourself. How about this instead? I'll read your posts and comment as necessary.

10457. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:15:50 AM

Your tax dollars at work

And no we're blaming Rove for Swiftie lies...

10458. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 9:16:16 AM

10456

Concession noted.

10459. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:17:16 AM

jexster -

How much a week in inflation adjusted dollars to put Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan out of action? For 'nuthin', according to you.

10460. judithathome - 9/23/2004 9:18:39 AM

Kerry had better hope his laryngitis improves before the debates. I doubt he'll come across at all well against GWB, especially if he sounds like he's squeaking and sucking wind throughout the entire debate.

Oh gee...let's judge the debates on whose voice sounds the best. God forbid we judge them on who actually has something to say.

Kerry will whip Bush's ass even if he has to SIGN his responses.

10461. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:21:06 AM

No concession, jay. Kerry's flip flopped numerous times on Iraq, his military record, the economy, his health care plan, immigration, foreign relations, international treaties, etc. etc. etc.

For every issue, the guy has (had) at least two mutually contradictory positions.

Go mine that mountain of Kerry Krap yourself, but don't stop until you exhaust all of it. I've got better things to do that screw around with your silly games, and you're delusional if you imagine my refusal to goof with you implies any 'concession' on my part.

10462. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:23:05 AM

And we're blaming Bush for

- children left behind
- big drug company profits, no benefit in prescription drugs
- the largest deficits in US history with no end in sight
- cutting section 8 housing vouchers, creating more homeless on our city streets
- environmental rape
- crony corruption
- losing the war against Al Qaeda
- spending billions to deploy NMD that doesn't work and that wouldn't protect us against any real threat if it did
- the Enron rape of the West
- fewer police on our city streets
- launching a wave of hate and violence against gays
- reneging on his promises to fight AIDS
-reneging on his committment to oppose a Federal marriage amendment
- reneging on his promise to be a uniter not a divider
- reneging on his committment to a stronger military
- gross negligence in failing to stop 9/11
- covering up intelligence failures
- the Plame treason
- misleading the US into war
- failing to properly plan and execute that war
- making the US the most despised nation on the planet
- butchery in Iraq
- the deaths of over 1000 US troops
- Spending 200 Billion of your tax dollars for nothing
- Cutting taxes for the rich, while screwing the middle class
- failure to properly defend the homeland
- reducing the number of police on our streets and endangering public safety
- reneging on his promise to be a uniter not a divider


IOW - his results..because RESULTS MATTER

10463. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:24:25 AM

I hear that Kerry, in front of some industrial union, bragged about all the SUVs he owns. Then, in front of an environmental group, he claimed he owned no SUVs.


Liar.

10464. Wombat - 9/23/2004 9:24:27 AM

If Concerned cannot tell the difference between World War II and the Iraq War, he probably also believes that President Bush's behavior has been Churchillian.

10465. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:26:10 AM

Re. 10462 -

Jexster - You wish a tenth of the Krap you list in that post was true.

10466. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:26:35 AM

Bush Flip Flops ..a short list from today's post..:

• how to regulate air pollution
  
• whether states should be allowed to sanction same-sex marriage.
  
• He changed his mind about the merits of creating the Homeland Security Department
  
• d made a major exception to his stance on free trade by agreeing to tariffs on steel.
  
• After resisting, the president yielded to pressure in supporting an independent commission to study policy failures preceding the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
  
• Bush did the same with questions about whether he would allow his national security adviser to testify, or whether he would answer commissioners' questions for only an hour, or for as long they needed.
  
  

10467. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:27:54 AM

Wombat completely misses my point, with his usual disingenuousness. His gibe was just stupid.

10468. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:27:56 AM

Every single item is extensively documented...

You can bet on that in my posts...and you know it

That's why you yap about Dan Rather

Down 14% in one week..let's roll

10469. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:31:41 AM

jexster -

Tell us all about the one and only way that exists to control air pollution. Otherwise, you're just another flip-flopper who shouldn't criticize GWB about that.

10470. Wombat - 9/23/2004 9:33:13 AM

Well gee Concerned, since you "centrists" keep using World War II comparisons (and the Republican Convention's hailing Bush as the second coming of Churchill made me almost physically ill), the least I can do is suggest that there are major differences between the two wars that even someone as historically ignorant as you could figure out.

I've got my whack-a-mole hammer ready if you want to play.

10471. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:34:01 AM

How about some cheney flip flops!


in lies..too long a list..even edited

10472. judithathome - 9/23/2004 9:35:11 AM

There are myriad ways to control air pollution. Bush's way is to not do it.

10473. Wombat - 9/23/2004 9:36:44 AM

No,JAH the Bush way is to weaken exisitng regulations and call it the Clean Air Act. Not a flip-flop, just an Orwellian lie.

10474. thoughtful - 9/23/2004 9:37:30 AM

Compassionate conservative indeed!!!

U.S. Seeks Cuts in Housing Aid to Urban Poor

The Bush administration has proposed reducing the value of subsidized-housing vouchers given to poor residents in New York City next year, with even bigger cuts planned for some urban areas in New England. The proposal is based on a disputed new formula that averages higher rents in big cities with those of suburban areas, which tend to have lower costs.


That's our W!

10475. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:42:42 AM

10469...

You're kidddin right? Jay and Wabbit would ex-communicate me for a month...


Here are three ...

Perfect Storm: Mercury and the Bush Admin

.

Addressing A Legacy of Pollution
There has been a deafening silence on environmental matters as the administration has rolled out its priorities in 2004. No mention in the State of the Union.

An Environment of Deception

Three years into the current administration, the trend in environmental regulation is sledgehammer clear: this administration is the worst steward of the environment ever.

10476. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 9:43:09 AM

Kerry's flip flopped numerous times on Iraq, his military record, the economy, his health care plan, immigration, foreign relations, international treaties, etc. etc. etc.

All false, concerned.

10477. judithathome - 9/23/2004 9:43:38 AM

If Bush has four more years, he can do away with the poor altogether. Don't school their kids, don't give them healthcare, don't leave any jobs in this country they can qualify for, don't give them housing they can afford...pretty soon, they will all die and we can be done with that segment of the population which is such a drag on our economy. Pretty nifty plan.

10478. jexster - 9/23/2004 9:43:49 AM

Folks there is a very good strategeric reason Rove is orchestrating SwiftShit...

10479. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 9:44:08 AM

I hear that Bush does lines in the white house bathroom and then shtups his male aides.

10480. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:45:35 AM

Re. 10476 -

Prove it, then.

10481. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 9:47:06 AM

Prove what? You're the one making an unsupported claim, as always.

I hear now that it wasn't male aides he was shtupping. It was the 14 year old son of an aide.

10482. alistairconnor - 9/23/2004 9:47:40 AM

I hear that Bush does lines in the white house bathroom and then shtups his male aides.

But as long as he doesn't lie about it under oath...

10483. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:49:12 AM

Re. 10481 -

So you disavow your 10476. Fine by me.

10484. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 9:51:04 AM

No concerned/ Everything you posted is both false and unsubstantiated, as always.

Now I hear that a substantial source of dirty tricks funding for the president has come from Afghan heroin producers.

10485. concerned - 9/23/2004 9:53:45 AM

Here's some examples of C^BS's 'gold standard' news reportage, as exemplified by Rathergate:


1. Killian's widow and son were IGNORED
2. Virtually all truly qualified document experts regarding the forgeries were IGNORED
3. Hodges was MISLED
4. The old secretary was NOT INTERVIEWED until afterward
5. Staudt, who had his character attacked in one memo, was NEVER CONTACTED, even after Rathergate started
6. The opinions of the experts were MISREPRESENTED when any notice was taken of them.
7. The swift boat veterans were MALIGNED
8. George Bush's roommate during his ANG years, who had agreed to speak to CBS was turned down as being too 'pro Bush'.
9. CBS contacted partisan 'Rat, Burkett, looking for the documents, Burkett did not call CBS.

10486. jexster - 9/23/2004 10:18:43 AM

Another Poll Konfirms Kerry Surge - Bush "14% FreeFall"

Dead Heat in New Democracy Corps Poll
John Kerry and George Bush are tied at 49 percent of nation-wide LV's, with 1 percent other in a poll conducted Sept. 19-21 by Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research for Democracy Corps.

10487. jexster - 9/23/2004 11:27:31 AM

The puppet Baathist Allawi says things are just peachie in IraQ


Sistani Fears Elections Delay (and so does Obe Juan Cole)

Kerry Derides Allawi's Take on IraQ as "Unrealistic"


Now who ya gonna believe..

Bush?

10488. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/23/2004 12:54:45 PM

PLEASE, don't pass up this read . . .


The Unfeeling President By E.L. Doctorow

10489. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 12:59:33 PM

Ballot access summary See how Nader is doing. It's been pointed out elsewhere that the bulk of Nader's effort and funds is being spent getting on the ballot, and not on getting votes. i don't think that matters, myself.

10490. thoughtful - 9/23/2004 1:09:26 PM

Thanks, wiz.

10491. msgreer - 9/23/2004 1:22:28 PM

WoW

Thanks for the link. It was a difficult read...because it captures the truth. What I can not understand is how can any citizen of our fine country can vote for this man. I will never understand. If W keeps the crown the US SC gave him I will hide under my comforting comforter for four years. Then again if W stays at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue I may not recognize our country anymore.

10492. wonkers2 - 9/23/2004 1:36:59 PM

I just returned from a couple of hours of data entry work at my local Dem/Kerry HQ. I was inputting data from a phone survey designed to identify Kerry voters and the issues they are concerned about. Based on my sample of data my unscientific impression is that voters who listed terrorism or taxes as their number one issue concerning them overwhelmingly are Republican and plan to vote for Bush. Those that list the economy, health care, the environment or education say they are going to vote for Kerry. I guess that's about what one would expect. The terrorism issue is working for Bush and taxes of course. I saw only two voters out of approximately 1,000 who plans to vote for Nader. And there were not a lot of undecideds. The phone survey was done in suburban communities around Detroit.

10493. wonkers2 - 9/23/2004 1:39:31 PM

Seems to me the mainstream media and the pundits are letting the American people down by letting Bush make so much headway on the issue of terrorism. It seems to me that everyone should know by now that Iraq was pretty irrelevant to terrorism before our invasion and that we worsened the terrorism situation by our attack.

10494. thoughtful - 9/23/2004 2:01:17 PM

yes wonks, that about covers it....interesting info. thanks.
jex is right then that kerry has to hit hard on the iraq/terror thing.

he also needs to look more human...he suffering from the gore effect. gore always looked like he'd had his neck botoxed and couldn't move his head independently of his shoulders. kerry has his whole face botoxed and i think it's really working against him. he doesn't seem genuine. I'd much rather see a withered haggard face that's expressive than this mask with moving lips. it doesn't make him come across as trustworthy.

10495. msgreer - 9/23/2004 2:04:57 PM

wonkers

The W camp is using fear to collect votes. This is by far the most damaging election I have lived through. Kerry-Edwards got knocked for keeping their message positive until recently that is. I guess in the present political climate bashing Kerry and Edwards works better than talking straightforward about the issues. It certainly keeps W from having to talk about the issues. Let's see what happens when the debates begin.

What concerns me is the continous vicious attacks. With our country so divided already this tactic is not productive.

10496. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/23/2004 2:18:09 PM

What I can not understand is how can any citizen of our fine country can vote for this man.

Especially when R's tactics treat voters like mindless sheep. I just saw their latest add with Kerry wind-surfing over various images and a female voice-over that was trying to appeal to adolescent-minded fools.

I'm applying for Italian citizenship, so I guess we all have our "comforters" at the ready.

Nevertheless, there's still a Capraesque part of me that is not only wishing for a Kerry victory, but for an unexpected voter sunami, as well, that brings forth a change in the majority of both houses of congress . . . and then a a duck hunting accident and a Viagra induced heart attack for a couple of "Justices" on the Supreme Court.

But then, what else would you expect from a professional dreamer?

10497. thoughtful - 9/23/2004 2:34:58 PM

the problem is the vicious attacks and the mindless appeal to 12 year olds works. But it's not just that. The rove-meister has not one or two, but all irons in the fire. Consider:

o bush downhome tx appeal for the country types
o bush religion on his sleeve for the religious types
o bush get'em dead or alive for the rambo types
o laura bush with her stepford wife appeal to trad'l home types
o fear tactics so you can't change a horse midstream
o diversionary tactics with vietnam so you keep the electorate focused on events 35 years ago, not today's issues
o tax cuts for the wealthy and dereg for the business elite so they keep funding the campaign (though never mention the fact that bush is really elite, except to those elites)
o keep pumping lies out so the masses think saddam=al qaeda=9/11
o operatives in churches via the faith-based initiatives
o fast phrases that paint the opposition quickly and easily so no one has to think when they pull that lever: flip-flopper; massachusetts liberal; activist judges; frivilous law suit lawyer; etc.
o diebold running the machines; jeb delivering florida with goper operatives already culling roles, terrorizing black voters, etc.
o fox and rush shilling for the bushies while fingerpointing at the "liberal media", "the filter" that keeps the "truth" from the american people
o orchestrated campaign rallies where protesters are never seen or heard
o well trained attack dogs to launch the lies and smears allowing w to stay above the fray

I'm sure there're more, but those come to mind for now

10498. thoughtful - 9/23/2004 2:37:25 PM

oh yeah, i forgot about the new tax legislation speeding its way through congress extending some of w's tax cuts...and just found out they're going to start tapping the strategic petroleum reserve...gotta get them oil prices down somehow before the election.

10499. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/23/2004 3:01:21 PM

Thoughtful. you're too thoughtful! There's one huge albatross around their necks and it's Bush's War Blunders. Start feeling and having faith in the power of quiet thoughtful and determined people who know the truth and then contribute again to the DNC to get an instant palliative for your woeful thinking.

And don't forget to laugh !

10500. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/23/2004 3:05:21 PM

10501. jexster - 9/23/2004 3:50:48 PM

HoldThemAccountable2004 ad now running in Madison WI and Charleston WVa

10502. jexster - 9/23/2004 3:55:34 PM

Thoughtful listen up...a message for you...


"The overwhelming issue in this country is the Iraqi war and the war against terrorism and who can address those problems more wisely and more honestly.

I think that's the issue that Kerry has to pursue, because, in my opinion, President Bush has not been honest with the American people and has certainly failed in almost everything he professes to be doing in Iraq and in Afghanistan (news - web sites), unfortunately." President Jimmy Carter

10503. concerned - 9/23/2004 3:56:29 PM

Re. 10491 -

Funny you mentioned that. I don't have trouble understanding why people want to vote for Kerry. They simply have different opinions than mine, but I'm comfortable with the fact that they're as entitled to theirs as I am to mine.

10504. concerned - 9/23/2004 3:58:56 PM

Jimmuh Cahtuh, the godfather of Islamism and comprehensive failure as president, is very good at pointing the finger at everybody else.

10505. jexster - 9/23/2004 3:58:58 PM

Sure enough, true to form, TD's posts are a self-parody..

After a brief venture into the RESULTS THAT MATTER, he quickly retreated to the safety of Dan Rather.

Any wonder then that Bush's polling numbers are in free fall???

Maybe he can borrow Poppy's parachute

10506. jexster - 9/23/2004 3:59:37 PM

If Jimmuh is the godfather, Ronald Raygun is the deadbeat dad

10507. jexster - 9/23/2004 4:00:29 PM

Ronald Raygun sired Al Qaeda and GWB is the recruiting sergeant

10508. jexster - 9/23/2004 4:02:29 PM

Bush claimed today (lying again) that right/direction wrong track numbers in IraQ are better than here.


Boy is he in deep shit

10509. concerned - 9/23/2004 4:07:58 PM

jexster -

You hopeless dolt. Al Qaeda didn't exist until Xlowntoon's reign of error.

10510. concerned - 9/23/2004 4:09:39 PM

Re. 10411 -

Why not? Xlowntoon was a real zero when it came to policy. The only real argument for not impeaching him on that basis is that Al Bore was an even worse joke.

10511. concerned - 9/23/2004 4:13:16 PM

But Jimmuh Cahtuh virtually invited the Mullahs to turn Iran into a theocracy and was hapless enough that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan on his watch upon which Cahtuh, you guessed it, initiated the policy of arming the mujahideen.

Truly, Cahtuh has earned the mantle of 'godfather of Islamism' by these actions.

10512. Wombat - 9/23/2004 4:19:49 PM

Except that not all Mujaheddin were Islamist. The shift toward arming Islamists (with the advice and assistance of Zia Al Haq (Pakistan's Islamist president) didn't happen until the Reagan years.

10513. arkymalarky - 9/23/2004 4:59:15 PM

Jex,
Waa you live in that freaky pinko part of the state around Hot Springs????

How come that place is so liberal?

Hahaha! Dunno. Must be the water. I do love Hot Springs.

10514. jexster - 9/23/2004 5:00:47 PM

The Shame of the Plane

Lou "MoneyBags" Dobbs is rippin Bush - the guy who promised to stand up to China - up one side and down the other on China for allowing "US Companies to turn the American Dream into a Chinese fantasy".

In other news, Bush flip flopped again.

After denouncing Kerry's calls to pump from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to ease gas prices, Bush announced..guess what

10515. arkymalarky - 9/23/2004 5:00:57 PM

Alistair,

I love the Electoral-Vote site for the links and info. He seems to have a good perspective on it himself.

10516. jexster - 9/23/2004 5:01:44 PM

and all that money to fight the Evil Empire

Raygun didn't do bad by Saddam either

10517. jexster - 9/23/2004 5:02:05 PM

Let's put him on the Mother of All Battles Mosque

10518. thoughtful - 9/23/2004 5:22:48 PM

thanks for the chuckles, wiz. Much needed.

Gosh I hope all you guys are right, that kerry's coming out swinging even without his voice will finally make sense to some people, but I'm fearful.

He's got to answer the reasonable people like my hubby who don't like bush and yet need something positive to vote for in kerry. I was very surprised at his reaction...the wsj ran a big op-ed piece by kerry where he laid out his economic plan and hubby was actually impressed. Maybe there's hope?

There's always the debates. Maybe if bush starts seriously confabulating....

Also, is there any talk of a vp debate like last time? I'd think it'd be great entertainment to watch edwards duke it out with cheney.

10519. jayackroyd - 9/23/2004 5:25:03 PM

There is a scheduled VP debate. I don't think it will make a difference, unless Edwards agrees to smoke Cheney on his lies.

10520. arkymalarky - 9/23/2004 5:25:09 PM

It's scheduled for Oct 5, I believe.

10521. jexster - 9/23/2004 5:38:19 PM

either the 5th or the 6th...just a couple of days before the second B/K debate..

I think that one is gonna be a surprise headline-wise...

10522. jexster - 9/23/2004 5:41:22 PM

No TD...Osama was born of the Afghan resistance under Raygun..and of course news litters of jihadists every day in the Bungling Boy Bush's new Empire of Chaos...


Recruiting sergeant GWB, reporting for duty!

How did such an incompetent boob become president of the US??

10523. clydefo - 9/23/2004 5:41:49 PM

Bush often says, "We are on the path to the future, and we are not turning back"

Does anyone know what he's talking about?

10524. judithathome - 9/23/2004 5:52:19 PM

Evidently, we are on a path toward a huge cliff and we aren't turning back but, like all good lemmings, are going to plunge over it. The future he's talking about is the death of America as we've known it.

10525. jexster - 9/23/2004 6:39:10 PM

URGENT MESSAGE FROM THE B/C CAMPAIGN
Somebody Slime Mark Sandalow ASAP!


Talk about unorthodox.

A journalist -- Marc Sandalow, Washington Bureau Chief of the San Francisco Chronicle -- decided to discuss charges that John Kerry has waffled on Iraq policy by actually going back and reviewing his record as expressed in policy statements, speeches and votes.

Not surprisingly, he found Kerry has had pretty much the same position since the whole Iraq debate started ...

[A]n examination of Kerry's words in more than 200 speeches and statements, comments during candidate forums and answers to reporters' questions does not support the accusation [of flip-floping]. As foreign policy emerged as a dominant issue in the Democratic primaries and later in the general election, Kerry clung to a nuanced, middle-of-the road -- yet largely consistent -- approach to Iraq ...
[T]aken as a whole, Kerry has offered the same message ever since talk of attacking Iraq became a national conversation more than two years ago.



Someone's got to talk to this Sandalow guy and straighten him out. Maybe someone from CNN?

-- Josh Marshall

10526. jexster - 9/23/2004 6:56:13 PM

Boy, with his poll numbers in free fall, is Bush getting desperate..

Bush Says Kerry Criticisms on Iraq Threaten Effort

Kerry: Allawi Abets Bush in Putting on 'Best Face'

Bush: Poll Shows Iraqis More Upbeat Than Americans

10527. jexster - 9/24/2004 3:54:29 AM

Thoughtful....About that Vanishing Gender Gap


and

Here

10528. Magoseph - 9/24/2004 4:29:26 AM

Wow!
Troubled Unit of Halliburton May Go on Block

ber 24, 2004

HOUSTON, Sept. 23 - When Halliburton was awarded contracts worth more than $12 billion for work in Iraq, critics said that the company was using its political connections to reap big profits. But now, in a sign that those contracts are not providing the boon executives had expected from a subsidiary weighed down by other problems, Halliburton said Thursday that it was considering a sale of the business.

The unit, KBR, which provides military and oil field services, has been plagued by losses, by investigations into its activities in Nigeria and Iran and by sizable asbestos claims. Making matters worse, KBR's work in Iraq has not been as profitable as other activities and has contributed to a public relations nightmare for its parent. All of this has happened while KBR is seeking to emerge from bankruptcy protection.

The announcement by Halliburton, the nation's largest energy services company, indicated that KBR's problems have kept a lid on Halliburton's stock price and hindered its ambitions to benefit from elevated oil prices.

10529. OhioSTOPAS - 9/24/2004 4:55:46 AM

The Air Force Times reviews Lieutenant Bush’s record:

"From most accounts, Bush appears to have received preferential treatment to get into the Air National Guard and avoid the draft after he graduated from Yale University in 1968. He was initially regarded as a good pilot, but his performance faded over his final two years in the Guard and he was suspended from flight status. He did not fly for the remaining 18 months he served in the Guard, though he was obligated to do so.

"And for significant chunks of time, Bush did not report for duty at all. His superiors took no action, and he was honorably discharged in 1973, six months before he should have been. . ."

Mark Kleiman wants somebody to ask Bush:

"1. Why did you miss your required flight physical, and why didn't you make it up?
2. What happened to your written commitment to making flying a lifetime pursuit?
3. Why didn't you show up for drill for two periods of several months each?
4. Why didn't you keep your promise to find a unit to train with in Massachusetts?
5. How did you get away with it?"

10530. Magoseph - 9/24/2004 6:02:05 AM

Posted by Bela at ATI.

10531. wonkers2 - 9/24/2004 6:05:56 AM

BUSH POLICIES WEAKEN U.S. ECONOMY

A closely watched gauge of future business activity fell in August for a third consecutive month, evidence that companies and consumers continue to navigate an uncertain economic climate. The Conference Board said its Composite Index of Leading Economic Indicators fell 0.3 percent in August to 115.7, following a 0.3-percent decline in July. The August reading was the third month of decline, after more than a year in which the index rose steadily. Last month's drop was larger than the 0.2-percent decrease forecast by analysts. Economists said the August report confirms a slackening in the recovery dating back to the late spring. If the index drops in three consecutive months, the economy is considered to be weakening.

Detroit Free Press 9-24-04

10532. jexster - 9/24/2004 6:38:46 AM

WOW I wonder if the economy and IraQ will put Bush back in Crawford, safely in the rear..near the Alamo, shrine to Texas Military Failure

Anguish Over IraQ Resonates in Missouri

10533. wonkers2 - 9/24/2004 6:49:15 AM

Bush has failed in Iraq Here

10534. jayackroyd - 9/24/2004 7:14:39 AM

Stop it, wonkers. You're undermining the war effort and giving comfort to the enemy. Everything's going just fine. Freedom and democracy are on the way for the free, self-governing, lollipop-sucking Iraqi people.

10535. jexster - 9/24/2004 7:29:10 AM

President Peter Pan Asks Alice


Bushism of the Day
By Jacob Weisberg
Posted Thursday, Sept. 23, 2004, at 9:52 AM PT


"The CIA laid out several scenarios and said life could be lousy, life could be OK, life could be better, and they were just guessing as to what the conditions might be like."—New York City, Sept. 21, 2004

Mpte Pop Quiz: What illegal substance is the president on these days?

10536. jexster - 9/24/2004 10:36:59 AM

10537. jayackroyd - 9/24/2004 11:35:40 AM

Actually, that slate item ticked me off. That was not a Bushism. A Bushism consists of butchered syntax, but, generally, with his meaning clear.

In this case, he is stating, quite clearly, that he only pays attention to intelligence that is consistent with what he wishes or believes to be true. That attitude, which is pervasive throughout the policy (sic) making apparatus of this administration is the central reason that so much damage has been done in such a short span of time.

10538. jayackroyd - 9/24/2004 11:46:24 AM

It was this:

"I saw a poll that said the right track/wrong track in Iraq was better than here in America."

that I thought was funnier, because he says he never looks at polls. He realized that he'd put his foot in it, because later on he says

Again, I think if you look at polls -- which, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't, admittedly,

10539. jexster - 9/24/2004 12:09:05 PM

WOW this is RAPID RESPONSE:

New Kerry Ad Questions Bush Right Track, Wrong Tack Comments -Continuing to point out that George W. Bush's rhetoric on Iraq does not match reality, the Kerry-Edwards campaign will take to the airwaves with the new ad - "Right Track." The ad uses footage of the president's right track/wrong track comments in the Rose Garden yesterday.

Bush: "I saw a poll that said the right track wrong track in Iraq was better than here in America."


Narrator: "The right track? Americans are being kidnapped, held hostage, even beheaded. Over a thousand American soldiers have died. And George Bush has no plan to get us out of Iraq. John Kerry does. The Kerry solution: Allies share the burden. Train Iraqis to protect themselves. John Kerry. A new direction in Iraq."

10540. jexster - 9/24/2004 12:10:18 PM

That wasn't a Bushism of grammar..that was a Bushism of the Campaign

10541. jayackroyd - 9/24/2004 12:25:29 PM

This, cited by wonkers on Lies, is a Bushism:

The Afghan (sic) national army is a part of the army. By the way -- it's the Afghan [sic] national army that went into Najaf and did the work there.

We know what he means.

But this is pretty eerie, coming so recently after Rumsfeld mixed up Saddam and bin Laden.

10542. jexster - 9/24/2004 12:26:22 PM

Watch the ad

10543. jayackroyd - 9/24/2004 12:27:11 PM

It's good they got that out. Now when Bush says during the debates that he's a strong steady leader who doesn't look at polls, Kerry can say that isn't so.

10544. judithathome - 9/24/2004 12:31:27 PM

What does the ad say? For people like me, with a video card that seems to be fried, there will have to be a print ad.

10545. jayackroyd - 9/24/2004 12:39:54 PM

It's a good spot. The text is in jexster's message. It includes an element that I don't think has been used enough--Bush's stumbling over his words, looking confused and a little desperate.

10546. jexster - 9/24/2004 12:44:18 PM

Strategy Notes:
John Belisarius

What the Public Really Thinks About Iraq - And the Challenge Facing Kerry

Excellent...you will see how Kerry's ad fits the above analysis

10547. jexster - 9/24/2004 3:36:05 PM

Ruy Teixeira's en fuego today...

Two of several excellent posts...

Why Democracy Corps (and even Fox/Opinion Dynamics!!!) Beat the Shit Out of Gallup


On the Alleged Security Moms

10548. concerned - 9/24/2004 3:46:20 PM

No, jexster: Osama was born of the Afghan resistance under Jimmuh Cahtuh, the Godfather of Islamism. Even a peanutbrittle brain like you should be able to comprehend that.

10549. concerned - 9/24/2004 3:56:05 PM

Man who swore GWB into ANG says:``Bush Jr. did good for us,'' ``He pulled alert and he did it all.'' Read on for more...

You twisted little LW vomit maggots are acting like GWB was like yourselves - only capable of handling KP duty, running away to Europe or fragging yourselves like Senator Gigolo did.

Preferential treatment was not how GWB got a chance to be one of the best fighter pilots in the Texas ANG. Proven ability was.

10550. concerned - 9/24/2004 4:01:44 PM

--'and the challenge facing Kerry'...?

What kind of fossilized biasaurus would write shit like that?

10551. judithathome - 9/24/2004 4:02:44 PM

You twisted little LW vomit maggots are acting like GWB was like yourselves - only capable of handling KP duty, running away to Europe or fragging yourselves like Senator Gigolo did.

Started your beer early today, I see.

10552. concerned - 9/24/2004 4:04:52 PM

Nope. I'm on the job at the world famous research facility I work for. Perhaps you're referring to the fact that you've already tossed a few back.....?

10553. concerned - 9/24/2004 4:06:15 PM

However, since I just pulled a 15 hour shift yesterday, working until midnight, I may leave a bit early today.

10554. concerned - 9/24/2004 4:07:10 PM

Early for me, that is....

10555. concerned - 9/24/2004 4:11:36 PM

Hey, JAH -

Why is it the only people who have bad things to say about GWB's ANG duty are DNC types during campaign season?

Can you buy a clue....?

10556. concerned - 9/24/2004 4:12:47 PM

Oh, and Dan Ra^ther. But his problem appears to be congenital.

10557. concerned - 9/24/2004 4:18:22 PM

Democrats are wussies and dirty fighters trying to keep Ralph Nader off state ballots. Republicans didn't harass and victimize Ross Perot at all in '92, even though he was much more of a threat to Republicans than Nader is to Democrats today.

Lie, Deny, Suppress and Censor - it's the Democrat way.

10558. judithathome - 9/24/2004 4:34:48 PM

Can you buy a clue....?

I don't need to buy clues; I rely on factual things like what I see before my eyes. Try it sometime.

I see liberals refute your points here every single day and very few, if any, sink to your level of calling names and making really nasty remarks about "right wingers". You never fail to heap piles of filth on the left...yet we are supposed to give you and the President the utmost in politesse.

I suppose I can't really blame you; you're just aping what you see over on the Free Republic. But it does nothing to make your position be taken even remotely seriously.

10559. judithathome - 9/24/2004 4:36:01 PM

Have a nice evening...I'm off to enjoy a steak dinner.

10560. concerned - 9/24/2004 4:43:00 PM

Whew. I never thought you were so out of it that you actually believe that all the LW dementia, raving, hypocrisy, lies and bathroom crudity in the Mote is the 'utmost in politesse'. Well, maybe it is for you Lefties.....

Enjoy your steak dinner. I'm thinking of checking out a DVD this evening....

10561. arkymalarky - 9/24/2004 5:28:57 PM

Democrats are wussies and dirty fighters trying to keep Ralph Nader off state ballots.

Republicans are wussies and dirty fighters trying to put Ralph Nader on state ballots.

10562. jexster - 9/24/2004 6:03:19 PM

This guy's no wussie Arky..

GOP Senate Candidate in OK Admits to Sterilizing Teenager Without Her Permission

Dr. Mengele I presume?

10563. jexster - 9/24/2004 6:07:24 PM

Hey TD..speaking of DVD's



Coming Oct 5...

10564. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/24/2004 6:28:24 PM

10565. jexster - 9/24/2004 6:56:23 PM

Time Poll: Is Bush a Liar?

Only 37 percent said Bush has been "truthful in describing the situation" in Iraq

55 percent said the "situation is worse than Bush has reported."

10566. jexster - 9/24/2004 6:57:21 PM

What RU doing with a B/C sign in the first place Wiz..

The Shia prescribes you sacrifice your left hand and right foot to Allah

10567. jexster - 9/24/2004 6:57:47 PM

Sharia

10568. jexster - 9/24/2004 7:00:41 PM

10548...Sorry TD, I will document if you'd like to carry this on...even though you raised the point without any proof whatsoever..just a bald faced lie in fact.

Shall I provide references - Osama and his Jihadists were born in the struggle against the Evil Empire in Afghanistan which was funded by Ronald Raygun with on-site management and training from the CIA

Funding via Pakistan as Wombat said...

10569. jexster - 9/24/2004 7:01:09 PM

Halliburton Takes US Taxpayers for a Ride..CBS Evening News

10570. judithathome - 9/24/2004 8:54:42 PM

Coburn spokesman John Hart said the candidate would not answer specific questions about how many medical procedures he has performed. "It's a deliberate effort on the behalf of Brad Carson to avoid talking about his liberal voting record," Hart said.

Oh yes, it's just a fog of liberal dirty tricks, making known the facts about a man who may have committed crimes on underage girls. Yes, let's not hold him to account for anything he did 14 years ago; after all, it was just "youthful indescretions", sterilizing teenagers who might become pregnant and give birth, soon to be a drain on the public coffers.

Prince of a guy!

10571. jexster - 9/24/2004 10:21:27 PM

The American Taliban
God's Own Party Admits to Homophobic Religious Mailings

WASHINGTON - The Republican National Committee (news - web sites) acknowledged this week that it distributed campaign literature in West Virginia and Arkansas warning voters that liberals want to ban the Bible.

Contacted Friday by The Associated Press, party spokeswoman Christine Iverson said the GOP had already acknowledged it was the source of the mass mailings.


The literature claims that "the liberal agenda includes removing 'under God' from the Pledge of Allegiance" and shows a Bible with the word "BANNED" across it. It also shows a photo of a man, on his knees, placing a ring on the hand of another man with the word "ALLOWED," a reference to same-sex marriage.


The mailing tells people to "vote Republican to protect our families" and defeat the "liberal agenda."

10572. jexster - 9/24/2004 10:23:12 PM

This guy is a real proto-fascist..the REAL face and black soul of the Repuglican party..

Racist, intolerate, hate filled..Coburn is supposedly so wack that the Demo candidate has a shot at the seat

10573. jexster - 9/24/2004 11:02:18 PM

Rabidlly pro-war TNR turns on Wrong Track George..


Fool Me Once
by the Editors


All politicians stretch truth to present accomplishments in the most appealing light. What President Bush has told the country over the past week about the deeply troubled Iraq occupation, however, is different. While an increasingly strong insurgency murdered 250 Iraqis last week, he portrayed the occupation as gliding to success. Last week, Bush told the Manchester Union-Leader, "I'm pleased with the progress." The template the administration is using for its portrayal of Iraq is the one the Johnson administration perfected during Vietnam: To win reelection, Bush is lying.

....

There are brave Republicans who understand how disastrous the Bush administration's Iraq policy has proved. Referring to Bush's predictions, the GOP chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Richard Lugar, remarked, "The nonsense of all that is apparent." But the nonsense has continued. Bush has enlisted Iyad Allawi to travel to Washington this week and claim the administration is delivering victory in Iraq. Unless more Republicans join Lugar and put truth above party, the lies will continue through Election Day and beyond.

10574. judithathome - 9/25/2004 8:33:39 AM

Jex, I just spent 15 minutes joining TNR and going through the hassle of waiting for the confirmation e-mail and password acceptance and all sorts of BS to read that damned article, only to be told it is available to subscribers of the magazine ONLY.

Screw it.

10575. jayackroyd - 9/25/2004 8:47:26 AM

Here you go, Judith.

10576. judithathome - 9/25/2004 8:53:25 AM

Jay, that only takes me to the subscriber page...I log in and it does the same thing.

10577. judithathome - 9/25/2004 8:56:53 AM

Of course, I can read the article on Reese Witherspoon just fine.......arggghhh.

10578. jexster - 9/25/2004 10:24:32 AM

Kudos For Mark Sandalow! His article in the SF Chronicle that Kerry's position on Iraq has remained consistent throughout seems to have been noticed in the media.

Finally they're doing some real reporting instead of recycling B/C press releases.


AP: Bush Lies, Twists Kerry's Words on IraQ

Somebody stop him before he lies again.

10579. jexster - 9/25/2004 10:26:11 AM

OK JAH ..it is a great article and that is what Lies is For...

As soon as I do a couple of things, I will post the entire editorial in Lies..it is worth the trouble...

I forgot about the subscription

10580. judithathome - 9/25/2004 10:31:00 AM

That's okay, Jex...I'm sure it;s a great article. I wasn't faulting YOU, just the site.

10581. jexster - 9/25/2004 10:36:01 AM

OK it is up Judith...after all that is where it really belongs. LIES HAVE CONSEQUENCES...

It is great to see TNR inching back to reality and with my line learned at the feet of my grandfather...Fool me once...

You can fool the D Bros T, Al, R etc as many times as you care to

10582. jexster - 9/25/2004 11:20:07 AM

Pocketbooks Pinched, But W-ar Grips Voters - ChiTrib

Yes finally THIS war...not the other one

Peace, surplus and prosperity to war, deficits, economic squeeze
all thanks to a lying incompetent

Are you better off than you were four years ago?

10583. robertjayb - 9/25/2004 12:07:47 PM

Howard Dean is scheduled as a guest on Monday's Charlie Rose Show.

10584. robertjayb - 9/25/2004 12:22:01 PM

Keep on kicking, Ohio...

COLUMBUS, Ohio - (NYTimes) - A sweeping voter registration campaign in heavily Democratic areas has added tens of thousands of new voters to the rolls in the swing states of Ohio and Florida, a surge that has far exceeded the efforts of Republicans in both states, a review of registration data shows.

The analysis by The New York Times of county-by-county data shows that in Democratic areas of Ohio - primarily low-income and minority neighborhoods - new registrations since January have risen 250 percent over the same period in 2000. In comparison, new registrations have increased just 25 percent in Republican areas. A similar pattern is apparent in Florida: in the strongest Democratic areas, the pace of new registration is 60 percent higher than in 2000, while it has risen just 12 percent in the heaviest Republican areas.

10585. jexster - 9/25/2004 1:40:02 PM

Teixeira has an analysis of why the Democracy Corps poll is more accurate than Gallup...one comment on the post was interesting..

The DC poll has Bush +1...But the INTERNALS show that the respondents were Bush 51 Gore 43 in 2000

If Kerry has more weeks like this one, and a decent debate or two....

10586. jexster - 9/25/2004 2:11:18 PM

With the race a dead heat, Kerry on the attack, Bush doesn't know whether to shit or go brown.

Gen Rove..what shall we do? Kerry's crashed our poll numbers 12% in a week....Rummy and the Buffalo Soldier are fightin again in public...Allawi's lookin like Baghdad Bob..

You said we had Kerry "boxed in" on the Idiot Boy's Big Bungle and we could talk about Dan Rather and Charles Colson's SwiftTrash

...Now the Imbecile's talkin about how things are better in IraQ than in the good ole USA!

Tell us - shit or brown?


Rosy scenario
Prime Minister Allawi thanks the U.S., and says Iraq is stable enough to hold elections as scheduled, but U.S. Gen. Abizaid paints a gloomier picture.

-

10587. Magoseph - 9/25/2004 6:02:21 PM

NEWSWEEK--Debate Checklists for Kerry and Bush--What each candidate must do next Thursday in Miami
Excerpt: At a rally here, President Bush was in fighting trim: spirited, focused and rhetorically flub-free. His much-practiced and oft-repeated applause lines were well-chosen and confidently delivered, clearly spelling out his domestic priorities for a second term. It was a state-of-the art campaign event.
advertisement

But now comes the hard part: the debates—or, more particularly, the debate. Karen Hughes and Condi Rice, the president's two "mother hens" on foreign policy and language, were on the trip but out of view. When Bush finished on the stage at the Valley Forge Convention Center, I'm told, he spent more than an hour in a holding room working on debate prep before leaving for his next stop.

It's no exaggeration to say that the first presidential debate, to be held next Thursday night at the University of Miami, will be the key moment of the campaign. If Bush doesn't blow it, the race may be over. If he screws up—if he loses big time to Sen. John Kerry—Election Day may be another long night, week, or month.

10588. greystoke - 9/25/2004 6:08:22 PM

Tonight, I saw the ad by the Swift Boat Veterans accusing Kerry of betraying his country by meeting secretly with the North Vietnamese during the war.

"At least Jane Fonda apologized for her actions", they say.

This is all I've been able to find out about it so far.

10589. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 6:52:25 PM

Your CNS source sucks! The Swift Boat Veterans suck! Greystoke sucks! BTW what did you do in the war, daddio?

10590. jexster - 9/25/2004 6:54:33 PM

Calm down Wonk..where's that email?

10591. greystoke - 9/25/2004 6:54:34 PM

I suck ? Why do you say that ?

I think the Swift Boat Veterans are assholes.

10592. jexster - 9/25/2004 6:55:52 PM

This election is about a Deserter and Incompetent's mess and the War Hero coming to America's rescue in her hour of need

10593. jexster - 9/25/2004 6:56:39 PM

and about how GWB is gonna put this country on the right track, just like IraQ

10594. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 6:58:00 PM

Why would you want to spread their nasty lies and, repeat their effort to equate John Kerry with Jane Fonda?

Jex, I sent you an email shortly after you gave me the address?? I'll check and send it again. I know it didn't come back.

10595. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 6:59:57 PM

I sent it again to jmac@sfsu.edu.

10596. greystoke - 9/25/2004 7:01:36 PM

wonkers,

"Why would you want to spread their nasty lies and, repeat their effort to equate John Kerry with Jane Fonda?"


Ummmmmm .... because I thought this was a thread where we discuss such issues.

The cat's already out of the bag. The ad is airing on national TV.

10597. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:04:48 PM

Sorry, I shouldn't have been so snarky. But from the article you linked, CNS sounds like an arm of the GOP National Committee.

10598. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:06:51 PM

And "the cat" is a pole cat.

10599. jexster - 9/25/2004 7:13:58 PM

try again jmac@sfsu.edu jmac_sf@yahoo.com

There's a third but that is just for love letters from Ace

10600. greystoke - 9/25/2004 7:14:39 PM

wonkers,

That was the only place I have been able to find any information about the ad.

Anyhow, I think Kerry should stop tiptoeing around his opposition to the Vietnam War. He should say the war was wrong (if he still thinks so), and lay out exactly the reasons he did what he did. Of course if he now thinks he made some mistakes, he should acknowledge that, too.

Kerry talking openly about it will piss some people off. But, too bad. If Kerry comes across as saying something that he really belives in, I think that would be a net plus for his campaign, even among people who may disagree with his actions in the early '70s.

My view is that he suffers from the perception that he truly believes in nothing and is just telling the electorate what he thinks they want to hear. That's why the flip-flop accusations resonate. And that is my perception of the man as well. I would like to see Kerry prove me wrong.

10601. jexster - 9/25/2004 7:15:37 PM

Saturday, September 25, 2004
Two Faces of Bush




This graphic is part of a new Democratic Party initiative to focus on the "two-facedness" of George W. Bush, which is apparently conceived broadly.

The thing the graphic most reminded me of was Bush's angry performance at the Cabinet meeting that discussed Fallujah in early April of 2004, where Newsweek says he commanded, "Heads must roll!" His temper and recklessness in such key moments contrast vividly with the folksy image he projects on the campaign trail. Over 600 Iraqis died, many of them women and children, from aerial bombardments and tank assaults on residential areas that had not previously been directly involved in the insurgency.


posted by Juan @ 9/25/2004 03:52:43 PM

10602. jexster - 9/25/2004 7:18:32 PM

Grey...I feel exactly as you do but I THINK more like This...

Now granted this is by a DLC war hawk but that is all the more reason it makes sense to me...

comment????

10603. thoughtful - 9/25/2004 7:24:33 PM

Interesting piece in the times about bush beating kerry hands down when it comes to presentation clarity. It isn't just sound bites, but the structure and logical flow of kerry's presentation that's leaving everyone cold. Stanley Fish had his class analyze the two recent pitches in NYC by the candidates and the majority came to that conclusion.

If you can't explain an idea or a policy plainly in one or two sentences, it's not yours; and if it's not yours, no one you speak to will be persuaded of it, or even know what it is, or (and this is the real point) know what you are. Words are not just the cosmetic clothing of some underlying integrity; they are the operational vehicles of that integrity, the visible manifestation of the character to which others respond. And if the words you use fall apart, ring hollow, trail off and sound as if they came from nowhere or anywhere (these are the same thing), the suspicion will grow that what they lack is what you lack, and no one will follow you.

Kerry had better practice presenting his ideas succinctly and in a logical fashion, and he'd better learn it fast, or at the debates, he will be toast.

10604. greystoke - 9/25/2004 7:32:03 PM

Jexster,

That editorial makes some good points. I agree that Kerry cannot now say it was wrong to invade Iraq at all, because he has said and voted otherwise all along. And presumably that is his actual opinion, which alone is reason enough to stick with his position.

10605. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:35:26 PM

Greystoke, Kerry said he thinks the Vietnam war was wrong shortly after he returned from Vietnam and recently. He has never flip flopped or wavered on this issue. Nearly everybody has come to agree that the Vietnam war was a colossal mistake based on false assumptions and for no valid purpose cost a terrible toll in lives, American and Vietnamese. That's not the issue raised by the so-called Swift Boat Veterans their lying claims are that Kerry didn't deserve the medals he received and that his anti-war efforts after he came back were disloyal. [The actual swift boat veterans who comprised the crew on the swift boat under Kerry's command support the fact that his actions were heroic and deserving of the medals he received.]

My understanding is that Kerry has made no apologies for his opposition to the Vietnam war, but he has backed off a bit from his remarks about atrocities committed by American troops in Vietnam.

10606. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:36:47 PM

Kerry has not been "tip toeing" about his position on the Vietnam war.

10607. greystoke - 9/25/2004 7:37:12 PM

thoughtful

I agree with your post.

Fish's conclusion that Bush presents his ideas with greater clarity than Kerry is sad. Bush's speaking style is supposed to be one of his greatest weaknesses.

10608. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:39:52 PM

Thoughtful is correct that Kerry's speeches lack clarity and succinctness. He need to speak in shorter, more declarative sentences and use more contractions. ["I'm gonna'" rather than "I am going to."

10609. greystoke - 9/25/2004 7:40:32 PM

Wonkers,

"Kerry has not been "tip toeing" about his position on the Vietnam war."

Oh yes he has. When is the last time Kerry said anything substantive about his anti-war activities ?

10610. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:44:30 PM

I can't give you a time and date. But the fact that he opposed the war is not a secret.

Are you saying he did something for which he owes the country and apology? Are you trying to slime him like George H.W. Bush did a couple of times, equating him with Jane Fonda? Seems to me you are doing just that.

10611. greystoke - 9/25/2004 7:44:40 PM

And I think Kerry should not back off completely on the atrocities allegations either. How about the reports of what the Tiger Force did to civilians in Vietnam ? How about Mi Lai ? Kerry should refresh the nation's memory.

10612. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:47:07 PM

I have heard Kerry several times during the current campaign comment at some length about how his attitude about the Vietnam war changed while he was serving in combat there from one of initially supporting the war to one of opposition.

10613. greystoke - 9/25/2004 7:48:05 PM

wonkers,

Well, I haven't heard say much of anything about his opposition to the Vietnam War at all. Yes, I know its not a secret. The Republicans talk about it all the time. Its time for Kerry to start pushing back on this issue.

No, I'm not saying Kerry owes the country an apology at all. He should explain himself rather than keeping silent and letting his opponents paint the picture.

10614. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:50:11 PM

He didn't back off completely about American atrocities in Vietnam. I don't remember his exact words, but he said something to the effect that some of the Winter Soldier comments by others that he repeated were a bit over the top or words to that effect, i.e., made it appear that the atrocities were more common and widespread that they actually were. At least that is my interpretation from memory of his position.

10615. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 7:56:25 PM

Besides, greystoke, the relevance of what happened in Vietnam is minimal except to the extent it contains lessons for policy in Iraq. What we should be discussing in the election campaign are the respective positions of Kerry and Bush on foreign policy, terrorism, Iraq and domestic policy issues such as the economy, the growing national debt, tax policy, and Bush's policy failures on the environment, education, health care, etc. What Kerry may or may not have said or done in Vietnam should not be an issue. And for a slacker like Georgie Bush to encourage his henchmen to make it an issue is a monumental travesty. This much is clear, Kerry volunteered and served with distinction and valor while Bush got avoided combat by having his daddy pull strings to get him into the Guard and then bugged out on his Guard obligations. End of story.

10616. greystoke - 9/25/2004 8:03:19 PM

wonkers,

I agree with what you say in post # 10615. However, if the Republicans and their henchmen are going to keep bringing this up with national ad campaigns, Kerry must respond forcefully.

For him to simply say that Vietnam is not what we should be talking about just doesn't cut it.

10617. wonkers2 - 9/25/2004 8:10:39 PM

Well, I think he has and will do so. At a rally in Detroit he was introduced by Max Cleland. And his own swift boat crew has appeared with him several times. He has the better of the argument. I agree he needs to speak out more clearly and forcefully on it and on Iraq. There is no reason for him to be reticent on Vietnam, neither his service nor his opposition to the war after he returned. Even Robert MacNamara now admits the war was a mistake, but he took longer than Kerry to realize this and 40 years longer to speak his mind.

10618. judithathome - 9/25/2004 8:41:15 PM

It isn't just sound bites, but the structure and logical flow of kerry's presentation that's leaving everyone cold.

Funny, but several people who post in my thread at the Atlantic have been to see Kerry at campaign appearences and they came away with an entirely different opinion about his speeches. They say he is impressive as hell and has a very clear message. They've commented that what is shown in small bits on the news don't do him justice at all.

Meanwhile, the media bend over backwards to show Bush's ONE SPEECH...because that is all he makes, the same one, over and over...in the most favorable light possible. Not a day goes by without extended play of him before his vetted crowds of smiling sheep, all applauding at the same points in his ONE SPEECH.

10619. thoughtful - 9/25/2004 8:52:06 PM

j@h, if you read the op-ed piece i posted, they highlight some fundamental errors in speechifying that kerry made in that speech...a speech which was considered fairly important. and that's not the first time i've pointed out specific examples of a lack of clarity and simple declarative statements. it works against him. i have a funny feeling that the likes of those who frequent the atlantic thread aren't the same folks at nascar.

the contrast between kerry's visit to imus and biden's 2 days later was stark. biden came across as in charge and knowledgable and very clear in his point of view. kerry came across as defensive and wordy and leaves the impression of someone who is so scared of having his own words used against him that he qualifies his qualifiers and puts conditions on his conditions, leaving one with the impression that beyond trying to cover all bases, he can't even keep straight which base he's on.

This is all not good.

10620. jayackroyd - 9/25/2004 9:09:49 PM

That editorial makes some good points. I agree that Kerry cannot now say it was wrong to invade Iraq at all, because he has said and voted otherwise all along

That's simply not true. He said, when he cast his vote, that the president needed to have a military option in hand in order to effectively conduct negotiations, and that he had to be able to use those options if negotiations broke down. But he expressly did not, and never has, said it was right to invade Iraq.

10621. jexster - 9/25/2004 9:27:39 PM

What that DLC glosses over in its righteous anger at Dowd is that Kerry has taken the position and can maintain the position that he voted for coercive diplomacy; that coercive diplomacy was working until Bush subverted it; that had Blix been allowed to continue his inspections he would have discovered what he was very close to discovering and what we know now and what the CIA and Bush already knew, that IraQ had scrapped its WMD program in 1995.


Saddam would be in power today of course, subject to more subtle and likely more effective efforts to take him out - eventually

10622. jexster - 9/25/2004 9:29:12 PM

Juan Cole on Ole Wrong Track's Poll

President George W. Bush cited a poll done in June and July to argue that Iraqis are more optimistic about their future than Americans are about theirs. First of all, even if this were true, it is not good news for Bush.

Second of all, that poll was done before the US assault on Najaf, and the significant deterioration of the security situation in August and September. Many Iraqis had at that time been willing to give Allawi a chance, hoping security would improve. I am sure those numbers would be much lower now.

Moreover, the same poll found that more than 80 percent of Iraqis want an Islamic Republic with Islamic canon law or shariah as the law of the land. So if they are optimistic, it is because they think they can achieve such a goal over US objections. Again, this is not actually good news for Bush.


Kerry's got to focus on the point where most agree - Bush fucked up and should be fired.

The war vote comes in only as a matter of defense and Kerry has anticipated Bush's defense already

10623. jexster - 9/25/2004 9:31:27 PM

Biden is a tiger...not many come across well by comparison -his first term was at the time I worked there and he wasn't the retiring well-behaved freshman Senator either - but you are right T'filled...Kerry's got to sharpen the attack.

10624. robertjayb - 9/25/2004 9:54:15 PM

Yes. And if I hear Kerry begin one more statement with, "My fellow Americans...," my scream will be heard in Canada.

10625. jexster - 9/25/2004 10:28:04 PM

My fellow Americans, I come to you with a heavy heart

Iraq in Chaos Violence Rising Dramatically
BUsh Lying Again Data Confirm

10626. concerned - 9/25/2004 11:05:35 PM

Biden - a plagiarizing paper 'tiger'.

10627. concerned - 9/25/2004 11:10:20 PM

From US News & WR, 'Making CBS Play Fair' by John Leo:

What CBS produced was the worst press scandal of our era, revealing a depth of ineptitude and arrogance that even the network's worst critics hardly suspected. Internet bloggers shredded the 60 Minutes story within three hours of the broadcast's end. Some bloggers were challenging the authenticity of the documents while the program was still being shown on the West Coast. Within a day, the mainstream press picked up the story and further devastated 60 Minutes. After five days, with the CBS story totally discredited, Rather called his critics "partisan" and said they "can't deny the core truth of this story." He also said that if there was something wrong with the documents, he would like to be the one to break the story--a story that had been broken days before but amazingly not noticed by him.

Dan Rather, partisan hack, must be proud to be the most culpable party wrt the promulgation of this blatant fraud, universally acknowledged, except by wingnuts like jayackroyd, Jayson Blair and Helen Thomas as the 'worst press scandal of our era'.

10628. concerned - 9/25/2004 11:14:04 PM

jexster - another shameless partisan hack, should be devoting a good part of his thread 'Lies Have Consequences', to analyzing the Killian Forgery/CBS/DNC affair, which was tailor made for it.

Instead, I see no reference to the matter at all in that thread except by the Mote's resident wingnut, jayackroyd, making up excuses for all CBS's wrongdoing, thus cementing his status as the wingnuttiest of them all.

10629. jexster - 9/25/2004 11:22:30 PM

No TD wingnut = RIGHTwingnut


And while I can appreciate why you'd rather not discuss the 2004 election, for my part, I would RATHER pay attention to the Race for President and the RESULTS of the current resident who wants us to vote for him.

The Pentagon says GWB's results amount to Inexcusable Failure


Because in the real world a guy gets fired for "inexcusable failure"

I will let CBS worry about Rather.

10630. jexster - 9/25/2004 11:23:24 PM

Fox News Poll: WH Race in Statistical Tie

George Bush leads John Kerry 45-43 percent among nation-wide LV's, with 12 percent other in a head to head poll conducted September 21-22 by Opinion Dynamics for Fox News. (margin of error +/- 3).

10631. concerned - 9/25/2004 11:28:43 PM

Well, I know how addicted you are to polls and dissing GWB, anyway.

10632. jexster - 9/25/2004 11:31:04 PM

You want DRather..I have already said what I think..

I said I wouldn't put a QDE on the stand without him having analyzed the original document.

Dan Rather's failure was "inexcusable" from where I sit the more because it obscured the fact that everything those documents purported to say is true

10633. jexster - 9/25/2004 11:32:14 PM

There satisfied?

Now can we take seriously Emperor Wrong Track's injunction to examine his "results"?

10634. concerned - 9/25/2004 11:53:31 PM

Say, I was wondering what happened to all those rumors that GWB was going to drop Cheney for his second term. Not that they were ever well founded in the first place. What's the inside scoop on that jexster?

10635. concerned - 9/25/2004 11:58:16 PM

Also, I understand the latest Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads raking Kerry over the coals for trying to give the store away to the North Vietnamese in the '70's are tearing him a new asshole in public opinion.

That's got to have the Kerry Campaign tearing their hair out. What can they come back with? More forged documents aren't gonna work - CBS was busted the last time.

10636. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:05:05 AM

Lance Corporal Aaron Boyle, a Purple Heart winner, was killed yesterday in Anbar province. His wife is due to deliver their first son in three weeks.

His last words to his stepfather "I don't understand why I am here, but I am here"

His stepfather: "He was supposed to be home in a week. Now he's coming home in a box and I have no idea why. There is no reason for those boys to be over there."

10637. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:06:01 AM

I don't think the Kerry campaign or the public is paying any attention to Charles Colson dirty tricks or Karl Rove filthy politics.

10638. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:17:37 AM

You need not wonder nor worry what the Kerry campaign is coming back with..

Here it is...

RealPlayer

Right Track

George W. Bush’s rhetoric on Iraq does not match reality.

The Kerry-Edwards campaign will take to the airwaves with the new ad – “Right Track.” The ad uses footage of the president’s right track/wrong track comments in the Rose Garden on September 23, 2004.

Different Story

This ad focuses on the differences between what George W. Bush says about Iraq and what is happening on the ground and John Kerry’s plan to win the peace and avoid failure in Iraq.

Juvenile

Taking to the airwaves with a new ad titled “Juvenile,” the Kerry-Edwards campaign is condemning George W. Bush for responding to the deteriorating situation in Iraq by running a juvenile and tasteless attack ad.

10639. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:19:42 AM

There are two lines of message that the garden variety wack wingnut gets wet over..

1. Supermarket tabloid sleaze
2. Homophobic bible thumping

10640. concerned - 9/26/2004 12:20:38 AM

Kerry's latest 'ideas' about Iraq are hardly consistent with themselves, let alone his numerous earlier positions. If he wants to make Iraq 'the world's responsibility', he'll have an impossible task getting them to commit (more of) their troops while he's 'bringing our troops home' next summer.


Just another symptom of the internal logical breakdowns you get with a guy like Kerry who'll say just anything hoping sound bites will buy him some votes among those whose attention spans are limited to about a dozen syllables.

10641. concerned - 9/26/2004 12:23:00 AM

Re. 10639 -

jexster -

Stop disrespecting Dick Cheney's daughter.

10642. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:24:15 AM

DNC:


<
MoveOnPac:

10643. concerned - 9/26/2004 12:25:45 AM

And if Kerry thinks we can start pulling our troops in Iraq by next summer, that's an implicit admission that he knows can't be going nearly as badly there now as he likes to pretend.

10644. concerned - 9/26/2004 12:26:16 AM

So, Kerry (once again) comes off looking like a liar.

10645. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:29:52 AM

I am not dissin her..the RNC is...

{The RNC subsequently admitted that this is true)


WASHINGTON - Campaign mail with a return address of the Republican National Committee (news - web sites) warns West Virginia voters that the Bible will be prohibited and men will marry men if liberals win in November.




The literature shows a Bible with the word "BANNED" across it and a photo of a man, on his knees, placing a ring on the hand of another man with the word "ALLOWED." The mailing tells West Virginians to "vote Republican to protect our families" and defeat the "liberal agenda."


Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie said Friday that he wasn't aware of the mailing, but said it could be the work of the RNC. "It wouldn't surprise me if we were mailing voters on the issue of same-sex marriage," Gillespie said.


The flier says Republicans have passed laws protecting life, support defining marriage as between a man and a woman and will nominate conservative judges who will "interpret the law and not legislate from the bench."


"The liberal agenda includes removing `under God' from the Pledge of Allegiance," it says.


It does not mention the names of the presidential candidates.


Jim Jordan, a spokesman for America Coming Together, described the mailing as "standard-issue Republican hate-mongering."

10646. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:30:03 AM

Pelosi Calls Iraq War 'Grotesque Mistake'

10647. concerned - 9/26/2004 12:33:56 AM

Even knowing how many Lefties live in Fantasy Land, hearing about MoveOn's new campaign to blame the current hurricane season on GWB's policies has to stretch the credulity of non-morons to the breaking point.

MoveOn: Desperate wingnuts, indeed.

10648. concerned - 9/26/2004 12:36:44 AM

The flier says Republicans have passed laws protecting life, support defining marriage as between a man and a woman and will nominate conservative judges who will "interpret the law and not legislate from the bench.


Anybody who believes the above is 'hatemongering' is insane, mentally retarded and/or a wing nut.

10649. concerned - 9/26/2004 12:43:01 AM

George the Biasoros appears to be investing in an insane asylum when he funds MoveOn.

They sound loonier than jaybirds.

10650. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:51:05 AM

The liberals gonna take your bibles away and the fags gonna get married in what used to be your churches..

The wignuts understand the message.

I understand the message

Jimmy Swaggart understood it..he thanked God for GWB's crusade against gay marriage and in the next breath threatened to kill gay people

Everyone understands the message and so do you

10651. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:53:05 AM

Even the ass lickin Log Cabin Republicans understand the message..which is why they refused their endorsement of GWB.

10652. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:55:01 AM

I don't have Quicktime but I liked the DNC message..

Credibility is on the ballot this Nov. 2

Lies have consequences

and when an employee lies and fails inexcusably the consequence?

TERMINATION

10653. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:56:09 AM

nite TD..credibility is on the ballot...guess that about sinks the SBVT fad

10654. jexster - 9/26/2004 1:00:11 AM

I never believed the Dump Cheney rumor either..

How can the puppet dump the puppet master..

Anyway Bush doesn't hold anyone accountable for his disasters

He's too busy making excuses and blaming others

10655. wonkers2 - 9/26/2004 6:47:09 AM

Bush is a complete failure. A couple of days ago I challenged Concerned to name a Bush accomplishment. He's still scratching his head or other portions of his anatomy!

10656. jexster - 9/26/2004 9:32:41 AM

Major article in the LAT quoting intelligence and law enforcement officials to the effect that Bush's war against Al Qaeda has been a collosal failure and that his upbeat portrayals are a dangerous lie..

War on IraQ - "Inexcusable Failure"
War Against Al Qaeda "strategic failure"
Message # 1457 in thread 161

10657. jexster - 9/26/2004 9:33:40 AM

He's still working on Dan Rather

He's a Bush psywar vic

10658. jexster - 9/26/2004 9:59:52 AM

The Idiots STILL can't get their bullshit straight on elections..

First Dumbsfeld says yes...for some of the country
Then Armitage Powell's #2 says yes for all
Then Dumbsfeld said something different

Now


Powell acknowledges problems in holding January elections in Iraq

Lies
Incompetence

Kerry's got these people running in circles now

10659. jayackroyd - 9/26/2004 10:35:23 AM

the Mote's resident wingnut, jayackroyd, making up excuses for all CBS's wrongdoing, thus cementing his status as the wingnuttiest of them all.

Another lie. Show me the posts.

10660. jexster - 9/26/2004 11:04:48 AM

Take a number Jay..I am still waiting for TDs anti-war posts

and do not miss the NyT article mulling the options ..a pullout of IraQ?

No matter how you come down on that, the piece, in Lies, presents a stark contrast and clear picture of just how awful the US options are and just how grotesque the failure of the Bush war

10661. jexster - 9/26/2004 12:02:54 PM

TD ...be careful what you ask for..you just might get it...

What oh what will JFK's response be to the SleazeBucketVets????

Take a wild guess

As the truth on the ground in Iraq falls further and further out of line with the president’s rhetoric, the Republicans are resorting to their smear and fear strategies and taking to the airwaves with Progress for America’s dishonest, fear mongering ad intended to divide America and cover up the president’s failures.




Despicable

10662. judithathome - 9/26/2004 1:12:45 PM

CBS Nixes Story On Iraq War

CBS News has shelved a "60 Minutes" report on the rationale for war in Iraq because it would be "inappropriate" to air it so close to the presidential election, the network said on Saturday.

I guess they've been cowed into line like all the rest. God forbid anyone actually do any investigative reporting and show something unfavorable to the Bush administration on network TV.

10663. jexster - 9/26/2004 3:08:29 PM

Look for Ted Koppel or even Brokaw to pick it up..the LAT, NyT,AP, WaPo already have....

The streams have converged ..the window is open and Bush doesn't know what the fuck to do..

For three years the truth has been pounding at the door of Bush's lies and Rove thought he could get through 11/2 without a serious debate about the War President's sorry performance

Rove is an idiot

10664. jexster - 9/26/2004 3:18:56 PM

Exhibit A - Current Headlines

The Death of a War President


Bush: Would Give 'Mission Accomplished' Speech Again



Key Bush Assertions About Iraq in Dispute

Powell warns Iraq insurgency 'getting worse,' making elections difficult

Police clash with militants after Frenchman shot dead in Saudi

10665. robertjayb - 9/26/2004 3:40:20 PM

Former Maine governor Angus King to stump for Kerry. (Portland Press Herald via Demo Underground):

His (King's) problems with Bush are rooted in the president's inaugural speech four years ago - which King attended and at the time declared "the best inaugural address I'd ever heard." He recalls Bush portraying himself as "a uniter, not a divider" and a "compassionate conservative."

One term later, King said, the United States is coming apart at the seams over a war much of the world has condemned. And the "conservative" president's tax cuts for the wealthy and war in Iraq have plunged the nation into a deficit comprising a full 21 percent of the federal budget.

"Anybody under the age of 35 who votes for George Bush ought to have their head examined," King said. "Because they're going to be paying these bills for the rest of their lives."

10666. robertjayb - 9/26/2004 4:20:07 PM

Ron Reagan warns dubya off Dad's image...(Sunday Herald of Scotland)

...Reagan says he sometimes finds Bush “amusing, when you see pictures of him on his ranch with his little chainsaw as if he actually does any work there”.

Reagan, a broadcaster and writer, told the Sunday Herald that he is determined to speak out about the tactics of the Bush administration in this election campaign – especially when viewed against the struggle of the 2000 result.

He said: “The reality of this administration is so ugly that most Americans, even those who are more or less opposed to the administration, really don’t want to come to grips with that.

“This is an administration that has cheated to get into the White House. It’s not something Americans ever want to think about their government. My sense of these people is that they don’t have any respect for the public at large. They have a revolutionary mindset. I think they feel that anything they can do to prevail – lie, cheat, whatever – is justified by their revolutionary aims.”

10667. jexster - 9/26/2004 8:31:07 PM

Panglossian Palaver - Mo Dowd's phrase for BushSpeak...

When all is said and done, and hopefully that right soon, Bush's "legacy" will be aliteration

10668. thoughtful - 9/27/2004 6:26:10 AM

10662, sounds like rove's master stroke worked. not only did it squelch the whole nat guard issue, but it managed to push off the iraq story too which would be far more damaging. Gotta admit, the guy knows the system.

And the more he's able to manipulate the more the loyalists will remain loyal because a) they don't want to become victims themselves and b) they don't want to admit they are being duped.

Simply amazing...reminds me of my childhood watching the fisher spassky matches on pbs.

10669. jayackroyd - 9/27/2004 6:54:26 AM

King's endorsement should seal it for Kerry. I'm from Maine, where independent, non-partisan judgement is widely valued. King was, in fact, unaffiliated with either party and was popular. His switching sides will affect more than a few voters.

10670. thoughtful - 9/27/2004 7:08:12 AM

oil is trading at an all time high...could it be the saudi's don't want bush reelected????

10671. jayackroyd - 9/27/2004 7:16:31 AM

What is it that right wing republicans do to their daughters?

Apparently Alan Keyes' daughter may not be straight.



It makes you wonder. Since the evidence is mounting that homsexuality is inherited, at least to some degree, is the hysterical anti-gay thing related to, um, denial.



Note the button. "George W. Bush, You're Fired."

10672. alistairconnor - 9/27/2004 7:25:31 AM

The Saudis sure as hell don't want Bush re-elected. Nobody in their right minds wants Bush re-elected.

Hell, I bet even the directors of Kellogg Brown Root don't want Bush re-elected. Even the Likud ought to realise it's not in their best interest. (but I wouldn't count on that)

10673. concerned - 9/27/2004 8:59:57 AM

..I am still waiting for TDs anti-war posts

I've outlined my less than gung-ho position on the advisability of the Iraq here in the Mote and the archives are presumably still accessible. Either find those posts yourself or keep a lid on your lying insinuations, you lazy dolt.

10674. concerned - 9/27/2004 9:00:28 AM

..I am still waiting for TDs anti-war posts

I've outlined my less than gung-ho position on the advisability of the Iraq War here in the Mote and the archives are presumably still accessible. Either find those posts yourself or keep a lid on your lying insinuations, you lazy dolt.

10675. concerned - 9/27/2004 9:02:38 AM

Lies have consequences

and when an interviewee lies about his work history, has no qualifications, and flip flops inexcusably the consequence?

NO HIRE

10676. PelleNilsson - 9/27/2004 9:06:07 AM

The candidates, viewed through their words

In an unofficial but very formal poll taken in my freshman writing class the other day, George W. Bush beat John Kerry by a vote of 13 to 2 (14 to 2, if you count me). My students were not voting on the candidates' ideas. They were voting on the skill (or lack of skill) displayed in the presentation of those ideas.

The basis for their judgments was a side-by-side display in The New York Times on Sept. 8 of excerpts from speeches each man gave the previous day. Put aside whatever preferences you have for either candidate's positions, I instructed; just tell me who does a better job of articulating his positions, and why.

The analysis was devastating...

Kerry has a problem in communicating his views, doesn't he?

10677. alistairconnor - 9/27/2004 9:09:40 AM

I've outlined my less than gung-ho position on the advisability of the Iraq here in the Mote

Con was a in the closet, now he's come out...

I'm a cheese-eating surrender monkey, and I'm proud!

10678. concerned - 9/27/2004 9:13:26 AM

Jay's apologia for Rathergate:

Wingnut logic:

Dan Rather, CBS News Anchor

1. given documents he thought were true
2. failed to thoroughly investigate the facts
3. reported documents to the American people as true to make his case
4. when confronted with the facts, apologized and launched an investigation
5. number of Americans dead: 0
6. should be fired as CBS News Anchor

1) false statement
4) false statement

This distorted, partial, lie filled list effectively constitutes the Jayackroyd apologia I referred to of CBS's handling of the forged Killian documents.

10679. concerned - 9/27/2004 9:14:23 AM

Re. 10677 -

AC -

It's too much to ask you to not spread lies about me, it seems.

10680. alistairconnor - 9/27/2004 9:15:14 AM

Come on, Con.

Full disclosure.

Camembert?
Roquefort?

10681. jayackroyd - 9/27/2004 9:15:30 AM

What are you talking about? You think Rather knew they were forged? You didn't read the story about the investigation, headed by Thornburgh?

10682. jayackroyd - 9/27/2004 9:17:13 AM

And where is there any "apologia" for the forgeries?

10683. concerned - 9/27/2004 9:26:19 AM

You think Rather knew they were forged?

Yes. He was certainly aware that there were many overwhelming reasons to not believe they were genuine ANG documents before he first went on air with the story. After all, he had all the investigative resources of CBS News (this was supposed to be '60 Minutes' forte, remember) available to establish their authenticity beforehand, and CBS's behavior throughout the scandal until they were finally forced to throw in the towel included completely ignoring the huge preponderance of internal evidence that the Killian documents were not genuine.

Nobody but wingnuts now question that Dan Rather and CBS News were knowingly perpetrating a partisan fraud with Rathergate.

10684. concerned - 9/27/2004 9:29:10 AM

Since CBS has been exposed as being in the tank for the DNC, there is every reason to suspect similar dishonesty among many lower in the Democrat party echelons: I'm referring more specifically to widespread voter fraud come November.

10685. concerned - 9/27/2004 9:33:38 AM

Another way to look at Rathergate is that denying CBS's culpability in knowingly promulgating the fraud casts a damning indictment on the overall legitimacy of their so-called 'Gold Standard' investigative processes - that they can not be relied upon to do better than to go on air with bogus information that can be instantly and thoroughly discredited in the blogosphere.

10686. jayackroyd - 9/27/2004 9:36:42 AM

Nobody but wingnuts now question that Dan Rather and CBS News were knowingly perpetrating a partisan fraud with Rathergate.

Can you find anybody else who thinks this? And post the links?

If they were in the tank, they wouldn't have spiked the yellowcake story. Your paranoia is completely over the top.

10687. PelleNilsson - 9/27/2004 9:37:05 AM

To raise the spectre of voter fraud well in advance of the elections is a loser's tactics.

10688. jexster - 9/27/2004 9:45:52 AM

Well Pelle color me loser but I would rather have a fair election especially if the race remains a dead heat


Carter: Florida Still Falls Below International Standards for Free and Fair Elections

10689. concerned - 9/27/2004 9:46:47 AM

Re. 10687 -

You have a point there, Pelle. I suppose I was influenced by the recent pronouncements from the likes of Alcee Hastings, Jimmuh Cahtuh and the Kerry campaign. My bad.

10690. jexster - 9/27/2004 9:48:07 AM

Fifty bucks well spent

ACT/Demo Voter GOTV Operations Outpacing GOP Efforts - Massive Increases in Demo Registration in Swing States

10691. jayackroyd - 9/27/2004 9:53:11 AM

In fact, Pelle, in the face of the SC decision in 2000, both sides are gearing up to litigate any close race:

TNR on the effect of the Gore v Bush decision.

10692. PelleNilsson - 9/27/2004 10:00:40 AM

I doesn't bode well for the US if elections are to be determined in court as a matter of routine.

10693. jexster - 9/27/2004 10:02:16 AM

10694. jayackroyd - 9/27/2004 10:08:30 AM

Yes, Pelle, that is a very disturbing development, one that the justices tried to fend off by claiming that Gore v Bush was not a precedent setting opinion.

10695. jexster - 9/27/2004 10:22:00 AM

Where DID those ScuzBucketVets come from anyway?


So now we get some details about how the Rove treatment works -- and not just speculation, but with descriptions from former Rove staffers who helped organize some of his trademark whispering campaigns.

An article out this week in The Atlantic Monthly focuses specifically on a series of races Rove ran in Texas and Alabama in the 1990s.

The Alabama races in particular haven't gotten that much national press attention in the past. And one of the most lizardly passages in the article describes how Rove launched a whispering campaign against one Democratic opponent suggesting that the candidate -- a sitting Alabama state Supreme Court Justice, who had long worked on child welfare issues -- was in fact a pedophile ...

Marshall on the New Atlantic Article - Karl Rove's Politics of Putresence

10696. concerned - 9/27/2004 10:39:38 AM

Keep in mind that the USSC decision which actually nixed the fourth 'recount' that SCOFLA attempted to mandate was 7-2. Thus, the charges of USSC partisanship are more despicable groundless lies by the out of control Left.

10697. jexster - 9/27/2004 10:39:59 AM

Who is Osama Voting For?
- Michael Kinsley

10698. jexster - 9/27/2004 10:44:20 AM

as he sits in his cave studying materials from the League of Women Voters and the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office....At least Osama bin Laden is probably concentrating on what really matters in this election. He is not spending a lot of time comparing ancient typewriter fonts, or reviewing the circumstances of Kerry's third Purple Heart. In that sense -- and only in that sense -- he may be a good influence.

10699. jexster - 9/27/2004 10:45:05 AM

That was a stay not a decision "nixing" anything

10700. jexster - 9/27/2004 10:47:39 AM

Do we need a history lesson here?

The Supreme Court invalidated Florida law as unconstitutionally applied by a 5-4 non-majority decision of Republican appointees thus denying Florida voters the right to have their votes counted and determined under Florida law.

10701. jexster - 9/27/2004 10:51:59 AM

Q : I'm not a lawyer and I don't understand the recent Supreme Court decision in Bush v. Gore. Can you explain it to me?
A: Sure. I'm a lawyer. I read it. It says Bush wins, even if Gore got the most votes.


THE "GORE EXCEPTION":A Layman's Guide to the Supreme Court Decision in Bush v. Gore

Print it out so I don't have to post it again please

10702. concerned - 9/27/2004 1:03:40 PM

Why should anybody with normal or higher intelligence print out that piece of lying propaganda?

10703. concerned - 9/27/2004 1:06:18 PM

CBS said to be considering Rather replacement. Among the candidates:

10704. concerned - 9/27/2004 1:12:02 PM

Nader ignites campus partisans
U. Democrats protest Populist Party candidate

What is the Democrat Party's big problem with Nader? They ought to drop all their remaining court challenges to his candidacy forthwith.

10705. concerned - 9/27/2004 1:21:37 PM

What happened to the Democrat Party's 2000 mantra 'Let Every Vote Count'? Here they are trying to disenfranchise Nader supporters across the country in 2004.

10706. jayackroyd - 9/27/2004 4:23:25 PM

Actual disenfranchisement

The Ohio SecState is trying to throw out new voter registrations because the paper is not thick enough on the pdf generated registrations.

10707. jexster - 9/27/2004 5:59:34 PM

His former Harvard Business School professor recalls George W. Bush not just as a terrible student but as spoiled, loutish and a pathological liar.

'The Dunce'

Sept. 16, 2004 | For 25 years, Yoshi Tsurumi, one of George W. Bush's professors at Harvard Business School, was content with his green-card status as a permanent legal resident of the United States. But Bush's ascension to the presidency in 2001 prompted the Japanese native to secure his American citizenship. The reason: to be able to speak out with the full authority of citizenship about why he believes Bush lacks the character and intellect to lead the world's oldest and most powerful democracy.

"I don't remember all the students in detail unless I'm prompted by something," Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. "But I always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent student, the type
as a professor you feel honored to be working with. Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect -- the very rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George Bush, those who are
totally the opposite."

10708. jexster - 9/27/2004 7:22:45 PM

"Daily Show" Viewers Better Educated Than "O'Reilly Factor morons"

Meanwhile, the AP reported today that Stewart's crew at Comedy Central has gotten more serious about a rift with Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly. "You know what's really frightening?" O'Reilly teased Stewart when the comedian appeared on O'Reilly's show recently. "You actually have an influence on this presidential election. That is scary, but it's true. You've got stoned slackers watching your dopey show every night and they can vote."

The Comedy Central folks knew O'Reilly was poking fun, but they decided to do a little research anyway, and found that viewers of "The Daily Show" are more likely to have completed four years of college than people who watch "The O'Reilly Factor," according to Nielsen Media Research.

Stewart, adds the AP, weighed in on O'Reilly's "stoned slackers" bit with this: "This election is going to rely on the undecided. And who is more undecided than stoned slackers? Ice cream or pretzels? Ice cream or pretzels? What's it going to be?"

10709. judithathome - 9/27/2004 7:54:58 PM

I'd put Daily Show watchers up against O'Reillybots any day.

10710. KuligintheHooligan - 9/28/2004 1:11:12 AM

"What happened to the Democrat Party's 2000 mantra 'Let Every Vote Count'? Here they are trying to disenfranchise Nader supporters across the country in 2004."

Exactly.

And what's all this whining about the 2000 Florida results? The recount was had and Bush won, so anything else is a moot point. All the while the Dems wanted a recount. One was finally had, and still they aren't content.

I think what they really meant by "recount" was "let's make sure Gore wins no matter what." But it backfired miserably on them. Too bad.

10711. alistairconnor - 9/28/2004 2:27:02 AM

Con : I've outlined my less than gung-ho position on the advisability of the Iraq War here in the Mote and the archives are presumably still accessible.

What's on the menu today, Con?

If you haven't decided yet, may I suggest this :

Trou du cru
Trou du cru is a cheese from the Côte d'Or. For a period of three weeks during its maturation, it is wiped with marc de Bourgogne, a strong alcohol. By this method one experiences an aroma of alcohol scented with straw.

Texture:
It has an orang rind and an ivory-yellow pate.
Taste:
Its strong savour with a floral aftertaste will delight lovers of strong tasting cheese

10712. jayackroyd - 9/28/2004 2:50:58 AM

The recount was had and Bush won, so anything else is a moot point.

The recount wss stopped by the Supreme Court.

10713. thoughtful - 9/28/2004 6:58:49 AM

Was up early this am and watching c-span which showed two usa today pollsters interviewing a room of ohioans about the campaign ads. I missed the beginning so don't know how they were selected, but the point was on the effectiveness and believability of the ads, not who they were voting for. The general consensus was they wanted ads that helped them understand where candidates stand, not these compare and contrast that have little substantive to say. They said they were tired of the negative campaigning and didn't really care about the nat'l guard/vietnam service stuff. They didn't believe the 'facts' presented in the ads and would need to do more research before they would trust them. They pointed out several times that bush's ads include a web address where they can go find more information and thought kerry's failure to do so was hurting him. Of course, everyone knew the windsurfing ad and whether they believed it was effective or not, it was clear that it had made an impression, so much so that the usa today guys didn't bother running the ad again in the room, though they did run the kerry response ad which apparently had been released in a matter of hours of the windsurfing ad, though which few in the room had ever seen. (Clearly the facts bear out that regardless of how much people say they don't like negative ads, they stick.)

10714. thoughtful - 9/28/2004 6:59:03 AM

Though the interviewers tried to keep on message about the ads, little bits and pieces of info snuck through anyway. One woman saying the prime minister of iraq was here in the US or the UN, she couldn't remember which, thanking the congress for sending troops to iraq, so clearly it was the right thing to do.

A young person in the audience complained that none of the ads were addressing issues of importance to him. When asked, like what? the young man replied like social security...which brought chuckles to the room. But he explained that he's footing the bill for it and doesn't know if he'll ever see any of it.

Another man suggested that each candidate should treat these ads as job interviews, as that's what they are. When interviewing for a job, you don't sing high praises about what you WILL do...rather you come in with evidence of things you've done in the past that show how fit you are for the job your vying for. Good point.

10715. concerned - 9/28/2004 8:25:30 AM

Is he getting ready to molt?

10716. concerned - 9/28/2004 8:26:11 AM

Re. 10711 -

Somehow I think you're enjoying this.

10717. alistairconnor - 9/28/2004 8:28:38 AM

10716 - I certainly am.

10718. thoughtful - 9/28/2004 8:28:54 AM

Hmmm oil prices up to $50/bbl, consumer confidence tanking. Gee, maybe god has changed his mind and doesn't want w to be president any more....

10719. alistairconnor - 9/28/2004 8:30:59 AM

As the senior cheese-eating surrender monkey here, Con, I have a responsibility to ensure that your induction into the order is as pleasant as possible.

With perhaps just a little bit of hazing.

10720. judithathome - 9/28/2004 8:59:11 AM

Is he getting ready to molt?

Why would you ask that? We'll see who sheds feathers on Thursday night.

10721. judithathome - 9/28/2004 9:07:28 AM

Of course, Bush can stand there with drool on his chin and his thumb up his ass and Concerned will declare him brilliant.

10722. thoughtful - 9/28/2004 9:15:10 AM

Very good read by Daniel Ellsberg of pentagon papers fame.

Though I knew that the war was a mistake, my loyalties then were to the secretary of defense and the president. It took five years of war before I recognized the higher loyalty all officials owe to the Constitution, the rule of law, the soldiers in harm's way or their fellow citizens.
....

Surely there are officials in the present administration who recognize that the United States has been misled into a war in Iraq, but who have so far kept their silence - as I long did about the war in Vietnam. To them I have a personal message: don't repeat my mistakes. Don't wait until more troops are sent, and thousands more have died, before telling truths that could end a war and save lives. Do what I wish I had done in 1964: go to the press, to Congress, and document your claims.

...The personal risks of making disclosures embarrassing to your superiors are real. If you are identified as the source, your career will be over; friendships will be lost; you may even be prosecuted. But some 140,000 Americans are risking their lives every day in Iraq. Our nation is in urgent need of comparable moral courage from its public officials."

10723. jexster - 9/28/2004 11:16:39 AM

What If Bush Had Told the Truth?

From the Lonestar Iconoclast..

Few Americans would have voted for George W. Bush four years ago if he had promised that, as President, he would:

• Empty the Social Security trust fund by $507 billion to help offset fiscal irresponsibility and at the same time slash Social Security benefits.
• Cut Medicare by 17 percent and reduce veterans’ benefits and military pay.
• Eliminate overtime pay for millions of Americans and raise oil prices by 50 percent.
• Give tax cuts to businesses that sent American jobs overseas, and, in fact, by policy encourage their departure.
• Give away billions of tax dollars in government contracts without competitive bids.
• Involve this country in a deadly and highly questionable war, and
• Take a budget surplus and turn it into the worst deficit in the history of the United States, creating a debt in just four years that will take generations to repay.

10724. jexster - 9/28/2004 11:21:11 AM

NYT DEALS GWB DEAD MAN'S DEBATE HAND

The following plus Anthony Cordesman's Pentagon study concluding that Bush's war was an "inexcusable failure" is enough to send Il DuceII back to the ranch


if Kerry plays his CARDS right...

"Mister Bush, in the real world where Americans live and work, a person gets fired for deceit and inexcusable failure on the job and unlike the millions who lost their jobs because of your policies, you will deserve your fate"

Too strong?





Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them
Message # 1471 in thread 161

10725. jexster - 9/28/2004 11:33:58 AM

CRAWFORD WANTS THEIR FAVORITE FAKE RANCHER BACK ON THE FAKE RANCH

Where he can fail at armadillo husbandry..


Bush's Hometown Newspaper Endorses Kerry

10726. thoughtful - 9/28/2004 1:26:25 PM

Lonestar left out all the environmental things...more mercury in the air, more deforestation, more lead in drinking water, refusing to up CAFE stds for cleaner vehicles.

Also left out "dooh nibor" policy of growing regressive taxes by shifting the burden to the states while cutting taxes on the wealthiest's unearned income.

Renewing the era of big govt by increasing spending at a double digit pace and not vetoing one single spending bill. In addition growing entitlements with medicare rx plan, huge subsidy for agriculture and tax credits favorable for his energy buds.

Running a more secretive government.

Imprisoning americans without benefit of lawyers, hearings, etc for indefinite periods.

Proposing 7 constitutional amendments. (as if our constitution were THAT broken)

spending more time vacationing and campaigning than any prior president by far

10727. jexster - 9/28/2004 2:02:22 PM

A PoliSci prof at SFSU recommends the following

These are the sites that I use:

http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls.html
http://www.race2004.net/
http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/2004/president/electoratemap.php
http://www.unc.edu/~jstimson/heats.htm
http://www.electoral-vote.com/index.html

Stimson is the best of these in my view.

10728. jexster - 9/28/2004 2:30:05 PM

Actually my Thesis committee ChairBoy

10729. jexster - 9/28/2004 2:32:31 PM

What happened to the Democrat Party's 2000 mantra 'Let Every Vote Count'? Here they are trying to disenfranchise Nader supporters across the country in 2004.

As evidence of GOP voter intimidation and fraud mounts, it still is!

Not everyone can run for President..states have laws and those laws must be followed even if they hurt Bush

I am sure that there are millions of Bush voters who would like to vote for Barney

10730. thoughtful - 9/28/2004 3:08:21 PM

10727, thanks jex...i think i might be able to make use of some of those.

10731. concerned - 9/28/2004 3:09:25 PM

There's not one scintilla of evidence that the GOP is guilty of any voter 'intimidation and fraud' whatsoever.

However wrt 'intimidation and fraud', the desperate 'Rat attempts to keep Nader off of at least 13 state ballots continues.

10732. jexster - 9/28/2004 3:34:55 PM

Bullshit

10733. judithathome - 9/28/2004 3:35:23 PM

blah blah blah Nader blah blah blah

10734. jexster - 9/28/2004 3:35:58 PM

There have been half a dozen article posted right here in the past couple of weeks

You go find em

10735. jexster - 9/28/2004 3:36:57 PM

Wavering Voters Anti-Iraq, Wary of Kerry

Race Becomes More Volatile, Persuadables Up, Moderate Swing Voters Anti-IraQ, Ready to Dump Bush


By RON FOURNIER, AP Political Writer

WASHINGTON - In an election where most voters have already chosen sides, the presidency could be decided by a small slice of America in the mushy middle — wavering voters who are more likely than others to question President Bush (news - web sites)'s honesty and think the war in Iraq (news - web sites) was a mistake.



An Associated Press study of 1,329 "persuadable" voters, conducted by Knowledge Networks in advance of the presidential debates, suggests these people are deeply conflicted about change in the White House. While they have problems with Bush, they also have doubts about Democratic Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites)'s leadership skills and believe Bush is best suited to protect the nation.


One in every five voters is persuadable — including about 5 percent who tell pollsters they don't know who will get their vote and about 15 percent who say they are leaning toward one candidate but could switch to another. In past elections, as much as a third fit that description, but most of the nation was quick to pick sides this year in the aftermath of the disputed 2000 election.


It's possible many persuadable voters will stay home Nov. 2 out of frustration with their choices, but there are enough of them floating in the political center to alter the race for the White House.


"I don't want to see Bush get in, but I don't want to vote Kerry just to keep Bush out," said Grace Elliott, a 70-year-old retiree from Portland, Ore. She opposes the president's conduct of the war but says of Kerry: "He just makes me feel uneasy."

10736. judithathome - 9/28/2004 3:39:46 PM

BUSH RESTRICTING DEMOCRACY AS ELECTION NEARS

President Bush has opined about the need for democracy to be preserved, and for U.S. elections to be fair. In 2002, he said "Every registered voter deserves to have confidence that the system is fair and elections are honest."[1] In 2003, he gave a speech to the National Endowment for Democracy claiming he had a "commitment to democracy."[2] But, as a new report shows, Bush and the Republican Party are doing everything they can to reduce democracy at home as the election approaches.

As an article in In These Times notes, in August 2003 the CEO of one of the biggest manufacturers of new voting machines wrote a fundraising letter saying he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."[3] In June 2004, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R) tried to remove 48,000 traditionally Democratic voters from the Florida voter rolls,[4] prompting the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights to demand an investigation.[5] In July, a top GOP official in Michigan indicated his party's effort to reduce minority voter turnout, saying that the GOP will have "a tough time [in this election]" if "we do not suppress the Detroit vote."[6] In August, Jeb Bush's political appointee tried to hire two top Bush fundraisers to represent the election office in Broward County in the case of a recount.[7]

See the full article at www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1115.

10737. jexster - 9/28/2004 3:42:18 PM

John Judis's assessment is looking more solid by the day..

This race is looking like Raygun/Carter 1980

WHY 2004 COULD BE 1980 ALL OVER AGAIN.
Repeat Offense
by John B. Judis TNR


Hey Judith..you are an Atlantic subscriber...speaking of filthy GOP tactics...how was that Rove Expose?

10738. Magoseph - 9/28/2004 5:46:38 PM

Jex, I have sent you the article in a Word Document.

10739. Bill Russell - 9/28/2004 6:46:41 PM

Will anyone here actually watch these debates? For what purpose? A 'debate' between two of the elite, corrupt, wealthy establishment will be a poor excuse for a debate.

Why not let someone outside this elite establishment debate with them? At least it would be a real debate.

10740. Bill Russell - 9/28/2004 6:48:59 PM

" your career will be over; friendships will be lost; you may even be prosecuted. "

Yes, no good deed goes unpunished in America.

10741. jexster - 9/28/2004 7:27:09 PM

That's sweet mags...

It is lookin like America Coming Together is doing a bang up job getting voters to register...

Voters Swamp Registrar Offices - Democratic Surge in Cities, Registration Slow in GOP Areas

Similar Report Posted Earlier _ Dust From the Ground Game

10742. Bill Russell - 9/28/2004 7:37:24 PM

Bush will still win. Unfortunately, most Christians will vote for him.

10743. arkymalarky - 9/28/2004 8:02:19 PM

Not this one.

10744. wonkers2 - 9/28/2004 8:21:21 PM

Most evangelical, fundamentalist Christians will vote for Bush. But not all of them. Some will be influenced by other issues like Social Security, Medicare, education, the balooning national debt and other issues.

10745. Bill Russell - 9/28/2004 9:32:09 PM

Bush will still win. Very discouraging..

10746. jexster - 9/28/2004 9:54:17 PM

Bush Lying About IraQ - CIA Professionals

10747. jexster - 9/28/2004 9:55:04 PM

Most fundies will...but they aren't Christian..

10748. jexster - 9/28/2004 10:01:50 PM

While President Bush (news - web sites), Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and others have delivered optimistic public appraisals, officials who fight the Iraqi insurgency and study it at the CIA and the State Department and within the Army officer corps believe the rebellion is deeper and more widespread than is being publicly acknowledged, officials say.


People at the CIA "are mad at the policy in Iraq because it's a disaster, and they're digging the hole deeper and deeper and deeper," said one former intelligence officer who maintains contact with CIA officials. "There's no obvious way to fix it. The best we can hope for is a semi-failed state hobbling along with terrorists and a succession of weak governments."


"Things are definitely not improving," said one U.S. government official who reads the intelligence analyses on Iraq.


"It is getting worse," agreed an Army staff officer who served in Iraq and stays in touch with comrades in Baghdad through e-mail. "It just seems there is a lot of pessimism flowing out of theater now. There are things going on that are unbelievable to me. They have infiltrators conducting attacks in the Green Zone. That was not the case a year ago."

10749. jexster - 9/28/2004 11:44:46 PM

Bush's Top Ten Flip-Flops
NEW YORK, Sept. 28, 2004




The charge of "flip-flopping" has resounded throughout the presidential race, with the Bush campaign repeatedly accusing Sen. John Kerry of changing his mind on the issues. The Kerry campaign, in turn, has declared that Mr. Bush is the one doing the flip-flopping.

CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer David Paul Kuhn looks at the record and finds both men are correct. Here, the president's most notable flip-flops. Tomorrow, John Kerry's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weapons of Mass Destruction

Announcing the invasion of Iraq on March 19, 2003, Mr. Bush said, “Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.”

Two months into the war, on May 29, 2003, Mr. Bush said weapons of mass destruction had been found.

“We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories,” Mr. Bush told Polish television. “For those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."

On Sept. 9, 2004, in Pennsylvania, Mr. Bush said: “I recognize we didn't find the stockpiles [of weapons] we all thought were there.”


Nation Building and the War in Iraq

During the 2000 campaign, George W. Bush argued against nation building...

The United States is currently involved in nation building in Iraq on a scale unseen since the years immediately following World War II.
....


Iraq and the Sept. 11 Attacks..



The Sept. 11 Commission ...

10750. jexster - 9/28/2004 11:47:03 PM

This just in from CBS..

An interview with a Canadian journalist recently freed by insurgents who had threatened to cut off his head.


The journalist recounts the story of his captivity in This Video


The IraQi police were not only complicit in his capture, they were cheering and funding the insurgents who captured him (at a police roadblock) with US dollars and Bush guns.

10751. concerned - 9/28/2004 11:52:20 PM

Darn that Bush anyway, right, jexster?

10752. concerned - 9/28/2004 11:56:09 PM

C^BS: Fourth Estate Fifth Columnists.

10753. concerned - 9/28/2004 11:57:12 PM

Correction:

C^BS: Ninth Rate Fourth Estate Fifth Columnists

10754. concerned - 9/29/2004 12:07:56 AM

The Purple Kool Aid Gang

10755. Bill Russell - 9/29/2004 2:01:45 AM

interesting reading:

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinburgh) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some
2,000 years prior. "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
gifts from the public treasury. >From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

>From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent Presidential election:

10756. Bill Russell - 9/29/2004 2:02:33 AM

Continued...

Population of counties won by:


Gore=127 million

Bush=143 million


Square miles of land won by:


Gore=580,000

Bush=2,427,000


States won by:


Gore=19

Bush=29


Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties / parishes won by:


Gore=13.2

Bush=2.1

10757. OhioSTOPAS - 9/29/2004 4:34:30 AM

Good news from Ohio, in two actions by the Secretary of State's office:

1. Ralph Nader will not be on the ballot (although a court appeal is possible). The petitions submitted on his behalf contained numerous illegalities, and some outright fraud.

2. The Secretary of State is reversing an earlier directive to county boards of election that they should not process voter registration forms that are not on 80-pound card stock specified by state law (a provision usually waived).

The Secretary of State, J. Kenneth Blackwell, is a Republican (and an ambitious one at that), so his actions and rulings are being scrutinized for pro-Bush bias. But in this case it looks like integrity won out.

10758. iiibbb - 9/29/2004 6:59:39 AM

Message # 10755

You've been snoped; truth mixed with fiction.

10759. Magoseph - 9/29/2004 7:17:29 AM

Suppose that shortly after a Bush/Cheney victory, Bush dies as a result of an accident or some other reason and Cheney becomes then the President. It is most interesting to speculate on the consequences of such an event, that is if you accept as fact he is unacceptable as a President to at least two-thirds of the country.

Since this is a real possibility, I wonder why it is not being given any consideration. After all, isn't one of the foremost requirements of the vice-presidential choice that he be acceptable as President? It seems to me that I have heard this enunciated in every past election that I have experienced.

10760. RickNelson - 9/29/2004 7:27:28 AM

It's not uncommon these days for internet messages to find followers of their legitimacy.

I know my father and mother, both in their early-mid sixties have this problem.

10761. jayackroyd - 9/29/2004 7:28:37 AM

Good job, 3i3b.

10762. jexster - 9/29/2004 7:40:01 AM

What ABOUT ME!

This sound familiar???

WaPo (above)/Walter Pincus:


As for a war between the CIA and White House, said one intelligence expert with contacts at the CIA, the State Department and the Pentagon (news - web sites), "There's a real war going on here that's not just" the CIA against the administration on Iraq "but the State Department and the military" as well.


• not just considered it, but know it
  
  At 12:06 PM 2/6/2004, you wrote:
  
  Mr. Marshall,
  
  Have you ever considered that the CIA is involved in an inside/outside two front war on the White House???
  
  

10763. jexster - 9/29/2004 7:41:44 AM

The problem with that analysis Bill is WHAT population has moved into those counties...in several states a more democratic leaning demographic as moved in eg Colorado which Bush won easily in 2000 is now a toss up because hispanic population has increased

10764. thoughtful - 9/29/2004 7:42:16 AM

I don't see, esp without green party backing how nader can even be a factor in this election, on or off the ballots.

regardless, with all that's at stake and with w's record to run against, nader shouldn't be a factor at all. in fact this election should be a landslide for kerry. the fact that it isn't rests squarely in his lap. I knew he blew it at the grand canyon and he hasn't recovered since.

And damn it if he won't quit playing around with his looks. He's worse than hillary with her haircuts. How can anyone believe a guy who's reached this stage in life with his wealth who can't even figure out what the heck he looks like. Most of us get over that when we're in our teens. And botoxing up his face like that, he becomes unbelievable as his face is unreadable. no wonder no one knows where he stands. Maybe if his morphing looks were backed up with consistent words, but they aren't.

I wasn't as frustrated with gore as i believed he really couldn't help himself. underneath that rigid exterior was a person with a lot of issues. But I believe kerry to be different. I believe underneath is a person with a lot of strength and courage, but either he's being totally mishandled or he simply lacks the self confidence to be genuine. And gosh that's what's so sorely lacking in this election. Someone who's genuine.

10765. thoughtful - 9/29/2004 7:42:23 AM

And damn it we can't afford another 4 years of bush. he's just passed his 4th tax cut in 4 years. It will take us decades to bail ourselves out of the fiscal mess, just at the time when we need to be building the nest egg the most as the baby boomers hit retirement.

And worse than that, at least this 4 years, we know that everything bush did was done with an eye toward reelection. What will be the limiting factor for him over the next 4 years? There will be none that I can see. And the way this wuss congress has rolled over for him, and with more goper seats expected in the next one, and with the likelihood of more gop supreme court appointed judges, this will truly become the imperial presidency with no checks or balances.

Is it easy to move to canada?

10766. iiibbb - 9/29/2004 7:49:34 AM

Message # 10761

Not that I don't think Bush got elected after reading that CNN article... but a snope's a snope...

10767. jexster - 9/29/2004 7:53:23 AM

Adventures in BushWorld:
Catastrophic Success
The worse Iraq gets, the more we must be winning.
By William Saletan



The more I talk, the less I say

In 1999, George W. Bush said we needed to cut taxes because the economy was doing so well that the U.S. Treasury was taking in too much money, and we could afford to give some back to the people who earned it. In 2001, Bush said we needed the same tax cuts because the economy was doing poorly, and we had to return the money so that people would spend and invest it.

Bush's arguments made the wisdom of cutting taxes unfalsifiable. In good times, tax cuts were affordable. In bad times, they were necessary. Whatever happened proved that tax cuts were good policy. When Congress approved the tax cuts, Bush said they would revive the economy. You'd know that the tax cuts had worked, because more people would be working. Three years later, more people aren't working. But in Bush's view, that, too, proves he was right. If more people aren't working, we just need more tax cuts.

Now Bush is playing the same game in postwar Iraq. When violence there was subsiding, he said it proved he was on the right track. Now violence is increasing, and Bush says this, too, proves he's on the right track.....



On July 23, 2003, three months into the occupation, Bush scoffed that Iraqi insurgents were confined to "a few areas of the country. And wherever they operate, they are being hunted, and they will be defeated. ... Now, more than ever, all Iraqis can know that the former regime is gone and will not be coming back." A week later, he assured reporters, "Conditions in most of Iraq are growing more peaceful. ... As the blanket of fear is lifted, as Iraqis gain confidence that the former regime is gone forever, we will gain more cooperation." ...

10768. jexster - 9/29/2004 7:58:23 AM

A few days ago Marc Sandalow reviewed Kerry's statements on the IraQ War against Bush charges of inconsistency and found them entirely consistent.

Now its the Liar's turn...

NEWS ANALYSIS
Record shows Bush shifting on Iraq war
President's rationale for the invasion continues to evolve Marc Sandalow, SF Chron

10769. robertjayb - 9/29/2004 9:47:25 AM

John Eisenhower backs Kerry...(NH Union Leader)

The fact is that today’s “Republican” Party is one with which I am totally unfamiliar. To me, the word “Republican” has always been synonymous with the word “responsibility,” which has meant limiting our governmental obligations to those we can afford in human and financial terms. Today’s whopping budget deficit of some $440 billion does not meet that criterion.
...............................................

The Republicans used to be deeply concerned for the middle class and small business. Today’s Republican leadership, while not solely accountable for the loss of American jobs, encourages it with its tax code and heads us in the direction of a society of very rich and very poor.

Sen. Kerry, in whom I am willing to place my trust, has demonstrated that he is courageous, sober, competent, and concerned with fighting the dangers associated with the widening socio-economic gap in this country. I will vote for him enthusiastically.

I celebrate, along with other Americans, the diversity of opinion in this country. But let it be based on careful thought. I urge everyone, Republicans and Democrats alike, to avoid voting for a ticket merely because it carries the label of the party of one’s parents or of our own ingrained habits.

10770. jexster - 9/29/2004 9:56:14 AM

IraQ officially FUBAR

Message # 1478 in thread 161

10771. jexster - 9/29/2004 10:07:02 AM

Darn that Bush anyway, right, jexster?


CBS - Fifth Column?

Longing for the good ole Army_McCarthy days RU?

10772. jexster - 9/29/2004 10:09:52 AM

I guess Vietnam and Dan Rather weren't far enough away from Bush's lies & failures, TD put on his running shorts and is sprinting backward to Edward R. Murrow, CBS News..

10773. thoughtful - 9/29/2004 11:28:18 AM

More denying reality. Wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't cost so damn much!

THE BUSH RECORD : Missile Defense

With five installed so far and one more due by mid-October, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld is preparing to activate the site sometime this autumn. President Bush already has begun to claim fulfillment of a 2000 presidential campaign pledge -- and longtime Republican Party goal -- to build a nationwide missile defense.

But what the administration had hoped would be a triumphant achievement is clouded by doubts, even within the Pentagon, about whether a system that is on its way to costing more than $100 billion will work. Several key components have fallen years behind schedule and will not be available until later. Flight tests, plagued by delays, have yet to advance beyond elementary, highly scripted events.

The paucity of realistic test data has caused the Pentagon's chief weapons evaluator to conclude that he cannot offer a confident judgment about the system's viability. He estimated its likely effectiveness to be as low as 20 percent.



What's another $100B...heck it'd only finance another year in iraq. Anything so long as we don't put it into useless things like helping the homeless, boosting education, or improving homeland security.

10774. Magoseph - 9/29/2004 11:46:08 AM

thoughtful,
When I look at the eight year affect of another Bush presidency, I agree with you completely. However, if I look at the next fifty years and what another Bush presidency might bring about, I tend to look at it differently. First of all, Bush if he is re-elected, would be a different Bush. I believe he will attempt to destroy his enemies, both foreign and domestic before his term is up. This may lead to the nuking of North Korea and Iran. No other sane leader of the US would ever give consideration to such acts. What this type of activity would most probably bring about is a bonding throughout the civilized world to accomplish a real and powerful work government to make certain that another Bush cannot evolve.

In the end, perhaps, we need the chaos that a Bush brings to activate a move towards ultimate sanity.

10775. PelleNilsson - 9/29/2004 12:22:25 PM

There is a problem,you see, with public buildings. Batman got into Buckingham Palace and Bush got into the White House. It's an absolute tragedy. So we've got to find a way to deal with it

Tony Benn, grand old man of Bristish Labour, quoted in the Economist.

10776. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:04:18 PM

hehehe

10777. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:04:57 PM

Bush Policies Hurt Children Pediatricians Say

10778. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:08:41 PM

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties / parishes won by:


Gore=13.2

Bush=2.1

It'd be interesting to see a compilation of firearms ownership based on this criterion.


hehehe

10779. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:11:26 PM

Ralph Nader will not be on the ballot (in Ohio)

That's terrible news. Too bad there's not a chance in hell, or Ohio, that state Democrats will be as diligent in pointing out any Democrat electoral fraud.

10780. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:16:13 PM

From EDM...

Kerry, Bush Tied in New Economist Poll
John Kerry and George Bush are dead even at 46 percent of nation-wide RV's, with 2 percent for Nader in a new Economist/YouGov Poll conducted 9/27-9.

New Study Targets Key Groups for Kerry Gains
John Kerry can make major gains among key demographic groups of discontented white voters: women blue and pink collar workers; rural voters; those under age 30; and senior women, according to a study of post-Labor Day polls by Democracy Corps reported 9/28 (PDF). The study also identified other demographic groups Kerry should target for significant gains.

New IBD/CSM/TIPP Shows Dead Heat in Race for White House
Kerry and Bush are tied at 44 percent of nation-wide RV's, with 11 percent unsure, according to an Investor's Business Daily/Christian Science Monitor/TIPP Poll conducted 9/22-27.

Go figure these polls...my poli sci prof and I were just chatting about it..a combination of bad methodology (Gallup prime example); low response rate (people hang up on pollsters); cell phones and the explosion of newly and mostly DEMO voters

10781. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:17:10 PM

Nader won't matter...he's polling so low many pollsters don't even ask anymore

another prediction cometh true

10782. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:17:57 PM

And damn it we can't afford another 4 years of bush. he's just passed his 4th tax cut in 4 years.

If you can't 'afford' that tax cut, 'thoughtful', just remit the funds to me.



And worse than that, at least this 4 years, we know that everything bush did was done with an eye toward reelection.

So you believe a first term president should do nothing 'with an eye toward reelection'?

Is it easy to move to canada?

Sure. Just don't get sick once you're up there, or you're likely to be placed on on of Canada's interminable medical waiting lists.

10783. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:18:14 PM

Message # 10762 answers a question/contention that Bush's government was not in disarray...TD

Has been for 4 years and getting worse

10784. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:20:51 PM

In the end, perhaps, we need the chaos that a Bush brings to activate a move towards ultimate sanity.

If that's what you expect from four more years of GWB, you'll be sadly disappointed.

10785. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:26:10 PM

Yeah right..just like we were sadly disappointed at the 23 lies he told and is still telling about IraQ

10786. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:26:52 PM

Soros Out To Raise Another Few Million

WASHINGTON - He's donated some $18 million to organizations working to defeat President Bush (news - web sites). Now, billionaire George Soros is taking his campaign — and money — on the road.


The Hungarian-born activist will spend between $2 million and $3 million in the next month visiting a dozen cities, sending at least 2 million informational pamphlets to voters and placing ads in national and local newspapers.


"In spite of his Texas swagger, George W. Bush does not qualify to serve as our commander in chief," Soros said Tuesday at a news conference.


An ad to appear Wednesday in The Wall Street Journal features Soros' theories on "Why we must not re-elect President Bush." At the top of the list is the invasion of Iraq (news - web sites).


"President Bush silenced all criticism by calling it unpatriotic. When he said that 'either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists,' I heard alarm bells ringing," Soros said.


Former Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark (news - web sites) introduced Soros, saying that the activist has some important points of view to share, whether or not Clark agrees with them.

10787. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:29:21 PM

Misogynist Kerry tells wife Teresa to STFU & make herself scarce

"Teresa has disappeared, by and large," says Sherry Bebitch Jeffe, a public policy analyst at the University of Southern California.

I already miss her.

10788. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:30:55 PM

Persuadable Voters for Kerry AP POLL

1 in 5 voters

10789. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:30:58 PM

Former Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark (news - web sites) introduced Soros, saying that the activist has some important points of view to share, whether or not Clark agrees with them.

'Important' to the Purple Kool Aid Gang, perhaps, but not to the free world.

10790. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:33:26 PM

The Free World wants Bush safely back in Crawford practicing armadillo husbandry or didn't you hear?

10791. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:34:56 PM

We need Alcee Hastings and the UN Election Scrutinizers to monitor the reported fraudulent Democrat Party voter registration procedures in Wisconsin, Ohio and Minnesota.

Dead 'Rats for Kerry.

10792. jexster - 9/29/2004 1:35:38 PM

World Wants Bush Out of WH

Bush Policies Bring World Opinion of US to New Lows

10793. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:37:00 PM

Best we can do is to have the 'world' vote Kerry their president, jex.

10794. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:37:25 PM

But they don't want him, either.

10795. concerned - 9/29/2004 1:46:16 PM

Iranians, Iraqis who have seen 'Fahrenheit 911' call Moore a lying tub of pigshit

A group of 12 university students, for example, composed of both men and women who had seen the film, collectively wrote me and signed an e-mail which said: “Wow, this guy complains that Bush lied once. What would this windbag do if he lived here where our president lies to us once an hour?”

Another comment was: “This guy gets to publicly accuse Bush of lying and becomes famous and adored worldwide. We, here, complain about some decrepit and inconsequential government lackey and we not only go to prison but some of us get death sentences. He ought to thank his lucky stars he lives in a country where he’s allowed and even encouraged to be this obnoxious…”

Someone else quipped: “If he thinks that the U.S. is so bad, he’s welcome to trade places with us…since he’s so forgiving of brutal Middle Eastern dictators!”

Another young man said: “They are showing this film to erase from our minds the idea of America being the great liberator; maybe Americans themselves don’t appreciate what they have but we sure do!”

Another comment was: “Outside such pathetic ideological schemes, Moore’s fixation to reprimand and castigate his own society is so great that he is BLIND to the fact that our ancient land and society cannot be regarded and dealt with in the same fashion; therefore he has fallen pray to the Mullahs for whom he is nothing more than a tool to discard when his mission for them is completed.”

I'd say that these Iranian students have it about right. Don't you agree, jexster?

10796. concerned - 9/29/2004 2:25:40 PM

Debate lines we wish GWB would use:

"I have always said that my opponent's service in Vietnam was honorable. Unfortunately, he seems to be unable to agree on that point, even with himself."

10797. concerned - 9/29/2004 2:27:44 PM

Debate lines we wish GWB would use:

"I'd like to begin by thanking Kerry for his four months of service in Vietnam via the Naval Reserve. Winning three purple hearts, a silver star and a bronze star in only three weeks is an unbelievable accomplishment."

10798. concerned - 9/29/2004 2:45:09 PM

Debate lines we wish GWB would use:

"I urge the American People to judge my opponent not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character."

10799. concerned - 9/29/2004 2:55:16 PM

10800. concerned - 9/29/2004 3:02:40 PM

Debate lines we wish GWB would use:

"Senator Kerry: Can you go into greater detail about the atrocities you claim you committed in Vietnam and why it took preferential treatment from President Clinton in order to obtain your Naval discharge?"

Tough questions for Agent Orange.

10801. thoughtful - 9/29/2004 3:58:15 PM

Concerned, And worse than that, at least this 4 years, we know that everything bush did was done with an eye toward reelection.

So you believe a first term president should do nothing 'with an eye toward reelection'?


No, concerned, I'm still naive enough to want a president, regardless of his term in office, to pursue policies that are in the best interest of the nation, regardless of impact on re-electability, and certainly not those that are self-serving. So for example, gutting al qaeda was in the best interest of the nation having been attacked multiple times by them with tragic results. Going into iraq because saddam tried to kill my daddy is not. Cutting taxes to the working poor and middle class to stimulate a recessionary economy is in the national interest. Cutting taxes on the wealthiest, cutting dividend taxes and cap gains taxes so they will make big contributions to my reelection campaign is not.

10802. OhioSTOPAS - 9/29/2004 4:24:55 PM

#10791: "concerned", do you have a cite for the "reported fraudulent Democrat [sic] Party voter registration procedures in Wisconsin, Ohio and Minnesota."?

10803. jexster - 9/29/2004 5:42:55 PM

Since TD hasn't got anything better to do than sit around in his running shorts and slap the monkey to pics of Limin Payh Lawruh..

I thought this was interesting Thoughtful..

From the WaPo on Bush's Big NMD Bungle:

10804. jexster - 9/29/2004 5:43:02 PM

But what the administration had hoped would be a triumphant achievement is clouded by doubts, even within the Pentagon (news - web sites), about whether a system that is on its way to costing more than $100 billion will work. Several key components have fallen years behind schedule and will not be available until later. Flight tests, plagued by delays, have yet to advance beyond elementary, highly scripted events.


The paucity of realistic test data has caused the Pentagon's chief weapons evaluator to conclude that he cannot offer a confident judgment about the system's viability. He estimated its likely effectiveness to be as low as 20 percent.


"A system is being deployed that doesn't have any credible capability," said retired Gen. Eugene Habiger, who headed the U.S. Strategic Command in the mid-1990s. "I cannot recall any military system being deployed in such a manner."

...

Normally, when a weapons system is conceived, the Pentagon sets specific requirements that must be approved by a committee of senior military officers. The project is then assessed periodically by the Defense Acquisition Board, a group of high-ranking defense officials from various offices.


This accountability apparatus has been shunted aside in the case of missile defense. No requirements document was drawn up, and the traditional reviews and assessments have been bypassed. Instead, the Missile Defense Agency (MDA), which is responsible for developing the system, has been allowed to devise its own goals, test schedules and program reviews.

I used to get upset that Bush would spend $100 billion on a program that doesn't work against a threat that doesn't exist but hey...

We've already spent twice that on IraQ and at 4 billion a week, we burn a 100 in less than six months.

So hey, as George said..

In the long run, we're all dead anyway

10805. jexster - 9/29/2004 5:44:01 PM

In the end, perhaps, we need the chaos that a Bush brings to activate a move towards ultimate sanity.

10806. jexster - 9/29/2004 6:03:33 PM

That's MY CongressGirl!

Pelosi Derails Bush Plan to Buy IraQ Elections

10807. concerned - 9/29/2004 7:28:51 PM

Karl Rove claims that he 'has a couple of surprises' in store for Kerry before the election, and I don't think he means pumpkin pie.

Better stock up on the Pepto Bismol and heart medicine, Lefties.

10808. jexster - 9/29/2004 8:52:20 PM

Rove is a blowhard...the independent and persuadable voters don't give a rat's ass what cow shit Rove has up his sleeve.


This remember is the same moron who pumped 15 million bucks and 4 candidate visits into CA in the last 2 weeks of the campaign bragging that Bush would take CA and 400 EV's....

Fuckin idiot

Kerry will do just fine attacking RESULTS THAT MATTER..

Lies
Incompetence
Cronyism
Extremism

Like IraQ, like jobs, like health care, like the failed WOT, like budget deficits

Like Bush the Unfaithful
2000's Compassionate Conservative Crock - Faith Based Initiative

10809. jexster - 9/29/2004 9:11:26 PM

Rove thinks that he can win with a Culture War and a few buckets of slop that will titillate TD.

Rove's problem is that he doesn't think..he is formulaic filth....a predictable maginot mind fixated on phantom 4 million fundie votes he claimed Bush left at home after his 00 predictions failed to come true....

Privately, Rove has been challenged and even denounced for his approach. A common refrain I heard from Republican consultants a few months ago was that his approach is foolish, because for the sake of an ideologically intense campaign, Rove is ceding to the Democrats the moderates Kerry is pursuing. And, these consultants fear, it puts Bush in jeopardy of seeing outside events decide the race.

10810. jexster - 9/29/2004 9:15:01 PM

And guess what?

WASHINGTON - In an election where most voters have already chosen sides, the presidency could be decided by a small slice of America in the mushy middle — wavering voters who are more likely than others to question President Bush (news - web sites)'s honesty and think the war in Iraq (news - web sites) was a mistake.


AP Photo


AP Photo
Slideshow: Elections

Poll Shows Both Candidates Have Advantages
(AP Video)



Latest headlines:
· Bush Tours Fla., Kerry Faults Bush on Oil
AP - 41 minutes ago

· Bush's Reserve Resignation Cited 'Inadequate Time'
Reuters - 45 minutes ago

· Bush Gains in Battleground State of Florida - Poll
Reuters - 46 minutes ago


All Election Coverage





An Associated Press study of 1,329 "persuadable" voters, conducted by Knowledge Networks in advance of the presidential debates, suggests these people are deeply conflicted about change in the White House.

10811. jexster - 9/29/2004 9:20:58 PM

The Geography Dept has a three screen GIS display of electoral votes updated instantly as state poll results hit RealClear Politics site.

Unlike the EV predictor, the Geog display does not try to force states w/in the MOE into one camp or the other...

So today's results..as of noon..

Kerry 208
Bush 208
TossUp 122

10812. robertjayb - 9/29/2004 9:29:22 PM

dubya, with stupefying arrogance, claimed inadequate time to fulfill reserve obligation...

MIAMI (Reuters) - President Bush, accused by Democrats of shirking his duty in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War, wrote that he had "inadequate time" to meet future Reserve commitments in his Nov. 1974 letter of resignation released on Wednesday.

The letter was released by the White House on the eve of the first presidential debate, in Miami on Thursday, between Bush and his Democratic challenger, John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam veteran.

In the one-page "Tender of Resignation," Bush hand-wrote the following reason for resigning: "Inadequate time to fullfill (sic) possible future commitments."

I suppose the present-day commander-in-chief will understand if reservists whose Iraq duty is being doubled submit "Tenders of Resignation" claiming inadequate time to participate.

Inadequate time for dubya and other priorities for chickenhawk Cheney.

What an appalling pair.

10813. jexster - 9/29/2004 9:45:12 PM

The Mighty Coalition...some statesider Morons will believe anything and nothing at all..

Europe to Bush: "Just Go Away"
Even the British Prefer Kerry

Gee I wonder which world leaders DON't want Kerry?


Osama Bin Forgotten is one

10814. jexster - 9/29/2004 9:50:48 PM

Bush Reserve Resignation Letter - "I don't have time to serve my country"

10815. jexster - 9/29/2004 9:51:23 PM

Damn your eyes ...friggin Bubba

10816. jexster - 9/29/2004 10:01:01 PM

Joining former Commandant Gen Hoare and Gen Zinni


Another Marine Declares War on Bush
Iraq war veteran Steve Brozak is running hard for Congress. And he's turning his campaign into a referendum on Bush's military folly

10817. jexster - 9/29/2004 10:17:11 PM

My Corps
Your Corps
Our Corps
MARINE CORPS!!

Sept. 30, 2004 | Steve Brozak is running for Congress in New Jersey against George W. Bush. Sure, his opponent on the ticket is Republican incumbent Mike Ferguson. But as Brozak sees it, Ferguson is just a synecdoche for the Bush team, whose failings drove Brozak out of the Marines and the Republican Party and into the first political campaign of his life.

"The bottom line is I'm going to take him down," Brozak says of Ferguson. "I'm just going to keep hitting at him. This is a national race because I'm going to start hitting not just him but his boss. They lied to us, they misled us about what was at stake in the war with Iraq, and they're misleading us about what is going to happen going forward."

A candidate who has actually served in the Middle East during the Iraq war, Brozak has seen the quagmire up close.




"This is the greatest treasure the United States has, our enlisted men and women. And when we put them into harm's way, it had better count for something. It can't be because some policy wonk back here has a brain fart of an idea of a strategy that isn't thought out.

They should never be put on a battlefield without a strategic plan, not only for the fighting-our generals will take care of that-but for the aftermath and winning that war. Where are we, the American people, if we accept this, if we accept this level of sacrifice without that level of planning" - Gen Anthony Zinni

10818. jexster - 9/29/2004 10:36:56 PM

Now I am sure Karl Rove has some JizzBagsForGod group waiting out there to claim that Sen Heinz and Theresa had homoerotic sex with JFK and some 9th St. crack whore..

Bring it on

10819. Bill Russell - 9/30/2004 1:08:47 AM

Thursday night's debate rules contain 32 pages of rules restricting spontaneity.

10820. concerned - 9/30/2004 1:19:52 AM

Think there's enough room for spontaneity left for either candidate to gain an advantage?

10821. concerned - 9/30/2004 1:22:37 AM

BR -

What, if anything, do you have to say about the Democrat Party's desperate attempts to keep Nader off of state ballots? I don't recall Republicans doing anything of the sort in '92 when Perot was making giant sucking sounds wrt their electorate.

10822. concerned - 9/30/2004 1:27:42 AM

re. 10811 -

I have to hand it to jexster- he would have made Mondale look like he was neck and neck with Reagan right up 'til election day.

10823. Bill Russell - 9/30/2004 1:50:25 AM

"What, if anything, do you have to say about the Democrat Party's desperate attempts to keep Nader off of state ballots?"

Despicable !!!!!

But in the same situation, I expect the Republicans would do the same. Both Parties are despicable, and I don't undertand why Americans can't see it. The rest of the world does.

10824. concerned - 9/30/2004 1:55:49 AM

BR -

It almost seems coincidental, but the vastly larger Democrat Party actually seems to be abandoning the center in order to run more to the left as election day approaches. Can Nader actually be scaring them that badly?

10825. Bill Russell - 9/30/2004 2:10:41 AM

Many in the Democrat Party actually seems to be abandoning the Party, since they have long since abandoned their democratic principles. Perhaps they just won't vote. If they really understood the stakes, they would vote for Nader.

The polls seem to show less and less support for Kerry and the Democrat Party.

10826. Bill Russell - 9/30/2004 2:14:46 AM

"Think there's enough room for spontaneity left for either candidate to gain an advantage?"

Americans will vote for the one displaying the best charisma, as usual. That will not be JFKerry, who looks like a character from "The Adams Family".

10827. Bill Russell - 9/30/2004 2:48:12 AM

A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.

Joseph Stalin (1879 - 1953)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop.

P. J. O'Rourke (1947 - )

10828. Magoseph - 9/30/2004 3:27:35 AM

The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.

P.J. O'Rourke

10829. Bill Russell - 9/30/2004 4:40:53 AM

"and remove the crabgrass on your lawn."

I could vote for that.

;^)

10830. thoughtful - 9/30/2004 7:33:27 AM

How on earth did i miss this?

The mood seemed to change when Representative Robert Menendez, Democrat of New Jersey, seized on President Bush's declaration in Ohio last week that "as a result of the United States military, the Taliban is no longer in existence."

So, Mr. Menendez asked Mr. Armitage, "did you fail to give the president a briefing that the Taliban is still in existence?"

Mr. Armitage said the president meant that the Taliban "is not shackling 28 million people anymore," not that it had literally vanished.

The reply did not entirely satisfy Mr. Menendez, who said, "I think we have to stop sugar-coating the realities of what is happening in Afghanistan and in our other conflicts and be honest with the American people."

Mr. Armitage did not respond directly to Mr. Menendez's "sugar-coating" metaphor, choosing instead to use one of his own. "The Taliban is very much running from hidey hole to hidey hole," he said.



So w thinks the taliban is gone. w thinks iraq and afghanistan are democracies. w thinks mission accomplished. w thinks missile defense is done. rather than looking through rose-colored glasses, w is through the looking glass....mad hatter and all.

10831. Magoseph - 9/30/2004 7:50:43 AM

Yes, he and the voters who will re-elect him.

10832. jexster - 9/30/2004 9:53:30 AM

Dead heat - dead meat

And there are 3 of em now..

Caveat pollicus randorum




Harris Poll - Bush +2


LA Times Poll: Bush Ahead by 4

Kerry, Bush Tied in New Economist Poll 46/46

10833. jexster - 9/30/2004 9:56:35 AM

Message # 1479 in thread 161

Secession in IraQ - FT

10834. jexster - 9/30/2004 9:56:48 AM

toys

10835. jexster - 9/30/2004 9:59:38 AM

I have to hand it to jexster- he would have made Mondale look like he was neck and neck with Reagan right up 'til election day.

Well you can put your hand back in your pants and play pocket pool because I never did.

But I did believe Carter was ahead of Raygun by 8 points - outside the MOE, no big poll busts, going into the first debate...and by election day, I stayed in the office working, not bothering to watch the returns

8 ball corner pocket

10836. jexster - 9/30/2004 10:14:11 AM

The title of the NyT article is New Runoff (sic) System Has Candidates Cooperating

The reporter interviewed another PoliSci Prof about this..Dr. DeLeon is writing a journal article on it - IRV - Instant Runoff Voting..don't ask..too complicated even if you think you know the mechanics....a ranked choice vote..

There is only cooperation where there is an incumbent..with term limits this isn't always the case and when it isn't, you get 25 candidates as in my District all running to be everybody's second or third choice..


"Vote for me i am third best"

Where an incumbent is up, the challengers publically gang up on her all the while looking for the nearest hidden shiv...

DeLeon is quoted in the article..a funny coincidence ..he asked me to provided anecdotes and related one to the NyT reporter evidently because that reporter tried to interview the proprietor of the corner store who now has 15 different candidate signs in his window..the anecdote I had passed along

Since I wasn't there to explain the intricacies of IRV and the reason for the sign fest, the owner begged off the interview..

Damn I coulda been somebody

10837. jexster - 9/30/2004 1:39:52 PM

10838. jexster - 9/30/2004 2:06:35 PM

EDITORIAL - Los Angeles Times
How Dare Kerry Speak Up



The suggestion that terrorists support Sen. John F. Kerry for president is ugly, but basically silly. The suggestion that Kerry supports the terrorists is flat-out disgusting. President Bush has allowed surrogates to spread the former idea, but he himself has helped to promote the latter. Last week, Bush declared that Kerry's criticism of him and his Iraq policy "can embolden an enemy" and called Kerry "destructive" to the war on terror.

Since election day 2000 and through his first term, Bush has talked a better game of democratic values than he has played. And he is not one for nuances in any event. But the point here is not subtle: The right to criticize the policies of those in power is not just one of democracy's fringe benefits; it is essential to making the democratic machinery work. And questions of war and peace — dead young Americans, dead Iraqis, a radicalized Middle East, billions of dollars: Was it worth all this? — are the ones that need democracy the most....

Bush's own campaign strategy has put the events of 9/11 and their aftermath at the center of this election. The president asks to be reelected based on the claim that his response to that event has been a success. It would be convenient for him if any challenge to this notion were considered beyond the pale. Increasingly convenient, in fact, as the word "success" seems less and less applicable. But Bush's convenience is not what this election is about....

Compared with Kerry, George W. Bush is a coward. This is not a reference to their respective activities during Vietnam. It refers to the current election campaign. Bush happily benefits from the slime his supporters are spreading but refuses to take responsibility for it . ...

10839. jexster - 9/30/2004 4:30:02 PM

Senators Slam RNC for Fag Bashing Bible Pamphlet

10840. robertjayb - 9/30/2004 8:17:00 PM

Probably won't matter a hell of a lot but Kerry is whomping dubya like a red-headed stepchild.

10841. robertjayb - 9/30/2004 8:55:32 PM

In ABC's instant poll of 531 responders 45% thought Kerry won, 36% picked dubya, 17% said it was a tie.

A tie? WTF?

10842. clydefo - 9/30/2004 9:00:48 PM

Is Bush so arrogant that he didn't really prepare for this debate?
C-Span carried the split screen 100%. All of Bush's squirming and Kerry's aplomb.

The others mostly stayed away from the split-screen. Cowards.
No contest!
Bush: "It's hard work!?"

10843. winstonsmith - 9/30/2004 9:29:55 PM

I watched the debate and I was pleased that it was more real than I expected. I also feel that Kerry had a significant win. He looked far more poised, intelligent and, in a word, presidential.

10844. arkymalarky - 9/30/2004 9:36:57 PM

I agree. The spinners for Bush are going like crazy, but they're starting to sound repetitive and like they don't have responses for the criticisms that have been raised. I didn't get that feeling from commentary from the Kerry camp. If the next two debates are similar to this one, Bush will have a hard month ahead of him.

10845. judithathome - 9/30/2004 9:47:29 PM

Man, I was really entertained by the spinmeisters from Bush's team...Karen Hughes nearly imploded on screen. And Ralph Reed almost stroked out...he was furious.

10846. clydefo - 9/30/2004 10:07:01 PM

Ralph Reed could not look directly at the camera. I've never seen that before.

10847. clydefo - 9/30/2004 10:25:57 PM

The Emperor has no clothes. The masses are waking up! Debacle!
The Joke exposed!

10848. concerned - 9/30/2004 10:37:57 PM

JAH -

Then you ought to be entertained by what Kerry's top spinmeister had to say about the debate, according to Drudge.

Lockhart to McCurry: “The consensus is it was a draw.”

10849. concerned - 9/30/2004 10:42:40 PM

I didn't watch it myself, so Lockhart's quick summary is of interest to moi:)

10850. judithathome - 9/30/2004 10:46:22 PM

The consensus of some, maybe, but HAD you watched it, you'd have been cringing at your boy's poor performance.

That was no draw, Concerned. I've seen debates that were draws and trust me, that was no draw.

10851. OhioSTOPAS - 9/30/2004 10:51:58 PM

Got back a little while ago from a campaign rally in downtown Columbus. We watched the debate on a big screen and then John Edwards spoke.

Good job by Kerry tonight. I know my mind is made up, but it's hard for me to see how anyone could watch that debate and not conclude that George W. Bush is a rude little peabrained man.

10852. concerned - 9/30/2004 11:01:18 PM

According to Drudge, Kerry got it wrong during the debate about the NYC subway being closed down for security reasons during the Republican Convention. Guess he was going for some Dan Rather points.

10853. jexster - 9/30/2004 11:13:42 PM

Bush's failures made manifest.

Those split screen shots, now we know why Bush didn't want them

But in the final analysis, Kerry shoved the Bush smear campaign right up the liar's ass.

My point isn't that Kerry clobbered the president or anything. But for most of the 90 minutes I thought Kerry held the initiative, keeping the energy of the debate on questions about the president's record.

It's the second point however that is, I think, the really big deal about this debate.

If you look at the dynamics of this race and the small but durable lead President Bush has built up over the last month, it comes less from people becoming more enamored of President Bush or his policies as it has from a steep decline in confidence in Sen. Kerry.

To put it bluntly, the Bush campaign has created an image of Kerry as a weak and indecisive man, someone that -- whatever you think of President Bush -- just can't be trusted to keep the country safe in these dangerous times.

Often they've made him into an object of contempt.

Whatever else you can say about this debate, though, whatever you think of his policies, I don't think that's how Kerry came off. I think he came off as forceful and direct. And I suspect that most people who were at all genuinely undecided came away from the 90 minutes with that impression.

If President Bush's current lead is built not upon confidence in him or his policies but in a simple belief that Kerry isn't solid enough to be president, then I think this performance could help Kerry a good deal.

-- Josh Marshall

10854. jexster - 9/30/2004 11:14:09 PM

Live by the lie, die by the lie

10855. jexster - 9/30/2004 11:16:10 PM

I watched in my budget class...pretty much the same general reaction as Marshall and CNN"s talking heads

We'll see in a week but I also agree with CNN's new political analyst...the number of viewers will not drop off as in 2000 but increase.

Increased interest = increased turnout = Bush's worst nightmare.

10856. clydefo - 9/30/2004 11:18:00 PM

Bush thought he would make Kerry look awkward with the black box warning lights. He forced Kerry to be concise and focused. What a dumb ass.

10857. jexster - 9/30/2004 11:31:57 PM

CNN / GALLUP POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE

Kerry: 53
Bush: 37

CBS POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:

Kerry: 44
Bush: 26
Tie: 30

ABC POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:

Kerry: 45
Bush 36:
Tie: 17

Mort Kondracke: “This is the President's turf, this is the place that the President is supposed to dominate, terror and the war in Iraq. I don't think he really dominated tonight. I think Kerry looked like a commander-in-chief.”

Kate O'Beirne, National Review Online’s the Corner: "I thought the President was repetitive and reactive."

Jonah Goldberg, National Review Online's the Corner: "The Bush campaign miscalculated on having the first night be foreign policy night."

Bob Schieffer: “The President was somewhat defensive in the beginning”

Mark Shields: "The President showed a few times obvious anger"

Bill Kristol, Weekly Standard: “I think Kerry did pretty well tonight, he was forceful and articulate.”

Bob Schieffer: “Kerry got off to a very good start.”

Joe Scarborough: “It was John Kerry’s best performance ever…As far as the debate goes, I don’t see how anybody could look at this debate and not score this a very clear win on points for John Kerry.” (MSNBC)

Andrea Mitchell: “This is the toughest we’ve ever seen John Kerry. He attacked the very core of the President’s popularity. He’s basically saying, who do you believe?” (MSNBC)

Tim Russert: “Tonight he seemed to find his voice for the Democratic view of the world.”

Fred Barnes on FNC: "Kerry did very well and we will have a Presidential race from here on out."

10858. jexster - 9/30/2004 11:38:45 PM

Kerry Rapid Response is SMOKIN

Media Corps, Kerry-Edwards 2004 John Kerry won the debate Thu 09/30 16k
TrueMajorityACTION Tell Your Community Kerry Won the Debate

10859. jexster - 9/30/2004 11:41:40 PM

It was no accident that Kerry took aim at that 100 Billion rathole NMD

No accident that the B/C campaign hasn't touted that collosal waste of your tax dollars either...

They did in 2000 and their silence speaks volumes

I also wonder how many people knew that Bush was testing new nuclear bombs?

10860. jexster - 10/1/2004 12:05:30 AM

The Soul Man:"That's a group of FOLKS that has evil in their hearts"



Jon Stewart: FOLKS? GROUP OF FOLKS is what you meet at Olive Garden

The War President: "Sen Kerry says we have no allies..what about Tony Blair, what about Poland?"

Jon Stewart: POLAND? The second best is POLAND?

10861. Macnas - 10/1/2004 1:14:16 AM

I was surprised to be honest. GWB gave a pretty good account of himself, much more so than I was expecting. But I feel Kerry scored some good points, especially WRT sticking tenaciously to decisions/strategies even when they turn to crap.

That said, Bush managed to keep up his guard and was able to talk intelligibly for most of the time. I don't mean that in the nasty sense, but you have to admit he does have some problems now and then with the english language.

Now, it's not a real debate in my opinion, I would much prefer if it was a full on face to face debate refereed by whoever the US equivalent is of Jeremy Paxman. But, that’s just my opinion and not even my country.

10862. alistairconnor - 10/1/2004 1:31:04 AM

Not having seen the debate, I thought I'd judge by the opinions of the Bush diehards. Counter-intuitive, perhaps, but...

Homo Pan Troglodytes (the artist formerly known as AceofSpades) wisely chose not to comment himself, but
his readers give the debate to Kerry, hands down


A sample :
Hate to say it, but Kerry mopped the floor with Bush.

It goes beyond the fact that Kerry seemed smarter and better-informed than Bush, and quicker to seize opportunities that came up - that Bush, not at all quick on the take - let slip by when they came his way.

Kerry projected a Presidential demeanor, and was strong, energetic & assertive. Bush appeared tired, weaker, and defensive. His whole body language was sorta hunched over, his hands made pleading gestures, and when Kerry spoke, Bush's face looked like he had eaten a bad oyster and was wrapped up in the thought of figuring how to gracefully spit it out, or just swallow it. He projected "I Don't Want to Be Here!". When Bush spoke, he started fumbling in several instances, and he also repeated the same "talking points lines" over and over, sometimes without integrating them adequately into the statement or reply he was trying to get across.

10863. PelleNilsson - 10/1/2004 3:44:26 AM

Driven by the same thought I looked in on TPW. The conservatives there were quite subdued (or absent).

10864. judithathome - 10/1/2004 4:47:16 AM

According to Drudge, Kerry got it wrong during the debate about the NYC subway being closed down for security reasons during the Republican Convention.

The subway under Madison Square Garden was closed off during the convention because of security concerns.

Come on...that's the best you and Drudge have? Puh-leeze.

Bush didn't perform well, period. He was not only repetitive, he looked at a loss for words several times and far from being cowed by the lights, Kerry handled them masterfully...almost makes me think they are learning from Rove and put up that little snark about the lights before the debates in order to make people look for his being uncomfortable with them...knowing full well he could use them to spectacular advantage. Unlike Bush who stammered several times as the lights started to flash down; over- stepped his time limit several times; and a few times asked for more time only to be at sea for something to say when it was given him.

Face it, Bush met the enemy in a lighted hall last night and he was trounced.

10865. jexster - 10/1/2004 5:01:55 AM

This from my Thesis advisor

He's refering to all of those quotes which actually came from Kerry Rapid Reponse...

Corey C-- <...> wrote:
What? You didn't quote me?

I did Fox tonight... I took some shots at Fox News (shockingly, these didn't make the final cut - my favorite was a line about only fox news would read this
as a victory for Bush)....

Anyway, I think Kerry kicked his ass... hate to agree
with you John, but it might be a race after all.

10866. jexster - 10/1/2004 5:03:26 AM

the artist formerly known as AceofSpades

BEAT STILL my heart

10867. jexster - 10/1/2004 5:05:35 AM

CNN was watching the conservative blogs and apparently during the debate there was a huge amount of chatter about how bad Bush was doing and it settled later post debate into a desultory casting about a la sludge for "inaccuracies" in Kerry answers..

sheesh..can you imagine Bush hitting Kerry for "inaccuracies"?

10868. judithathome - 10/1/2004 5:15:24 AM

Hey, concerned, let me beat you to it:

From Drudge:

Bush inner circle suggests Bush visit with Hurricane victims earlier in day was emotionally draining, contributed to "tired" appearance in debate...

10869. jexster - 10/1/2004 5:31:47 AM

The only emotion that little shit felt last night was fear...

Swift Boat turned to the attack...

10870. Macnas - 10/1/2004 5:31:47 AM

I must have seen a different debate, Bush did better than that in my opinion. He did look a bit ragged, but I expected him to, the amount of prep for this debate must have been severe.

There is plenty road left to travel yet before Kerry can say he has has a good chance of winning the election.

10871. jexster - 10/1/2004 5:33:04 AM

10872. jexster - 10/1/2004 5:34:16 AM