This thread really can go anywhere that there's interest. My original intent in suggesting it was due to my enjoyment of the Business/Work Life thread at Tabletalk, and a desire to see if we can put our own spin on it here.
2. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:09:50 PM
I originally had a number of posts to start off the thread and I will put them in at a later date, but Arky just posted something in the Cafe that I thought would be a fun first case. Hopefully, she won't mind my posting it here:
I hesitated to post this, but what the hey--y'all might give me some perspective here.
I love my job, and though my schedule is going to be pretty bad next year, they're in a bind and this school has been very good to me for twelve years now. Nothing lasts forever, though, and looking down the road, though I think the scheduling problem is a one-year bind, I know my administrators are due to retire well before I am and things may not always be this good there. I've never entertained thoughts of leaving this school, though I've been asked to work in two other schools (both with better pay and one much closer) since I've been there.
Well, last night Bob's principal called and wanted me to come talk to him about working there. I go in at 9:00 tomorrow. The idea of working with Bob and commuting together is very appealing--though the money's about the same, the savings in gas and car maintenance would help a lot--but I love where I am and the people I work with and the kids I teach, and next year's seniors are my kids. If I left I doubt AP English would continue there and there's no indication that I would teach it at Bob's school.
I hate stuff like this--I wouldn't have looked for it, but now that the option's there I've got to check it out.
3. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:11:00 PM
Feedback thus far (copied from the Cafe):
Wombat: "No harm in talking."
Diva: "It doesn't sound as if you want to leave."
4. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:14:30 PM
Arky's response to Diva from the Cafe:
"I cry to even think about it. But I also know that my principal may only be there one more year, and when my superintendent leaves, probably in the next two or three, things could be very different anyway. I'm bad about jumping the gun and overreacting, though. I'm just going to talk it over with both administrations and weigh things after I have all the info."
5. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:15:21 PM
Arky,
Is it possible to contract back to the first school to teach AP English?
6. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 5:29:42 PM
I don't think so, because of the logistics and the load I would have. I'll ask--in fact, I'm trying to come up with a good list of questions for both places. It's been so long since I've even considered a job I'm afraid I'll forget to ask about something important.
I'll post tomorrow on how things go in the morning interview, then I'll probably talk to my school on Monday.
7. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 5:35:31 PM
What I wonder about is what other people value in their jobs? In weighing different options, prioritizing can be more difficult than it would seem, at least for me.
8. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:51:04 PM
Arky,
The principal has approached you, and you like it where you are. This puts you in a position of a reasonable amount of power, so explore the depth of it.
So do what you can to make the choice easier. How do you make it easier? Ideally, by coming up with a compelling reason to either stay or leave. How do you do that? The first things I can think of in your case would be money and flexibility.
Start with money. Ask for a lot--give yourself 20-30% raise and see what happens. Does he blink? Was he just expecting to pick you up cheap? Is he considering it? Is he willing to pay for you but the realities of the situation (limits on salaries, whatever) make it impossible? It doesn't matter what his reaction is, the very request will give you some useful information.
Move on to flexibility--I'm not sure what you can ask for there, but I'm sure you have ideas. Same principle--it's not whether he says yes or no, but rather how he reacts to the request that matters. For example, suppose you mention that the first school may have to do away with AP English if you leave--and that they may offer you the chance to contract back to teach it. Would you be able to commit to a two-hour block of time at the end of the day so you could get to the other school regularly? Or whatever it would take. I realize you don't think it's possible at this point, but it never hurts to open the door first.
I'm sure there are other areas for exploration; I just thought of money and flexibility because I don't know a lot about teaching. Will you be considered a senior teacher on the staff? Is there a pecking order that you'll have to negotiate with "newbie" status?
9. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:51:58 PM
My thoughts in offering this advice is to see if you can uncover a "gotcha". If he says "Sure!" to a 30% raise, it makes your choice a lot easier. If, on the other hand, he says something revealing about his hope that he could get you cheap, it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll turn it down, but it allows you to go in with your eyes open. Ditto with the flexibility--what if he offers you the ability to set your own schedule and get first refusal on certain classes?
In a situation like this, where you are conflicted, I think it is extremely important to ask for a lot. You are a senior teacher, you have a lot of value. If he's willing to pay for that, great. If he's not, it doesn't mean you turn him down, but it will give you a reason to say, "Hmm. It's an interesting offer but I'll have to think about it"--and then maybe keep him waiting for a year to see how things play out at your school.
10. christino - 7/27/2000 6:02:27 PM
Arky,
Go and hear what he has to say, but it sounds like things are stable where you're at for at least one more year and staying would give you the opportunity to see "your" kids out. It would also give the school time to find another teacher for the AP English program.
A guarantee that you and Bob could teach in the same school or a significant increase in pay or benefits would certainly be mitigatig factors but don't jump up and leave on just the possibility that your good experience won't continue. Is there a definite plan for retirement with a specific date on the part of your principal and superintendant? If not is it something you could ask either of them about? Is it a legitimate concern that the opportunity to move won't be available to you in future?
11. theDiva - 7/27/2000 7:20:44 PM
Arky
If you're crying just thinking about it, that ought to tell you something. If I were you, I'd finish out senior year with my kids, and if I still wanted to move thereafter, I'd look into it. You're happy and comfortable where you are, right? That's a pretty nice perk.
12. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 8:40:27 PM
Wow, thanks for all the wonderful input. It gives me a lot to think about going into it.
On salaries and contracts, school teaching is kind of weird, because contracts at the schools often come up for signing in the spring and jobs often come open in the summer. Salaries are a matter of public record, and with communities and school boards making determinations there's not as much leeway for superintendents to make offers unless they're in the form of extras--afternoon work, more contract days to perform extra responsibilities, etc. My school has always been very generous in that regard, but as time became more valuable I let a lot of those extras go. I do the annual here, but I probably would at Bob's school also, for a bigger stipend, since it's a bigger annual, but also for more headaches.
13. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 8:57:11 PM
Considering this as sort of a case study, here's what I know so far about both jobs:
First mine...
has an excellent but older administration (very traditional, which can be a minus sometimes) which has managed to do a lot with a little and has respect for teachers as professionals who know how to do their jobs. There's not a lot of hoop-jumping and paperwork or breathing down our necks. We spend most of our time teaching or preparing to teach. It's not administratively top-heavy like a lot of schools.
It's very casual and relaxed. Faculty gets along great with eachother, the administration, and the kids for the most part. In general, it's a nice community, with a supportive schoolboard and parents. I don't warm up to people very quickly (my best friend at work told me that for the first two years I was there she thought I didn't like her) and am very uncomfortable in any setting which feels too formal or structured.
There's not much money there and the schedule has grown more strained the past year or two, which hasn't really affected me until this coming year's schedule. Our superintendent has got some things in progress which should make this a temporary situation. Class sizes are small (I never have over 75 students, usually less--more like 60 or 65) but course preparations are heavy. I teach five different classes plus do the annual and newspaper. I enjoy my courses, though, and it stays interesting.
Classes coming up in the next couple of years are academically weak and I might not make the 10th grade AP next year, and possibly not the following. This happens sometimes in a small school where grade numbers rarely get over 30 or 35.
The drive isn't too bad (22 miles and very pretty and relaxing), but the road is very bad--narrow and curvy with steep shoulders, very rural, with lots of log and rock trucks.
14. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:12:12 PM
Bob's...
has a very good administration,also, but more administrators (it's a considerably bigger school, though still small). They are more fond of the latest innovations and paperwork and do seem to take more of their teachers' time on things that I don't find very productive.
Their facilities are ok, not better or worse than ours--their building and classrooms are less pleasant, but I would have 11 computers in my room. Currently I have two, but they're separated from the class in a back work area with two huge plate glass windows, something I requested and the school provided without hesitation.
The money would be about the same, most likely. I could make a request for a higher sum, but it will be tricky, since they have printed salary scales for 185 day teachers, and they'd have to add duties to my contract to add to my money.
The drive would be almost all interstate, with Bob. My day would be much longer, but he'd be two doors down. We could commute to events together and I could have more fun attending ballgames and other school activities. Over the long term things may change, but that would be somewhat offset by working with Bob. We wouldn't see that much of eachother during the day, it's just the ease and mutual support of going to and being in one place.
The kicker with me is going to be the schedule. They're on block scheduling, which means I'd have 3 classes each semester and a long preparation period rather than six year-long classes and a 50 minute prep. They have more duty than where I work, but with a longer prep and fewer classes (though lesson plans would cover material half again as long each day) I would still have more time in a day. I don't know what I'll be teaching, though. Speech was mentioned, and I would have to take a couple of classes to be certified, which they said they'd help pay for.
I'll know a lot more after Friday and Monday.
15. christino - 7/27/2000 9:17:34 PM
Arky,
It sounds to me like you've got a pretty good situation. Particularly regarding administration and the attitude toward teachers. From what I hear that's quite rare.
I know that for me making money is a great thing but if I'm miserable while I do it I can't stick around. I'm happier making less money if my work environment is good. A lot of times we don't see the value of things that don't have a price tag on them. I have to ask myself how much more money would I want an hour to put up with bullshit.
16. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:17:36 PM
PS--sorry to take up so much space with this. It's not that I'm trying to get help with a decision or overwhelm the thread with my own situation (though I love the advice from people who have a lot of experience with this sort of thing), but I think it's fascinating to look at what deciding on a job or career change involves, having not been involved in the process for so many years.
17. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:23:36 PM
Chris,
I must confess I have a bias, and I'm going to try to keep an open mind and look to the next three or four years when the administration will probably be completely different where I am now. I do dread my schedule next year, and the thought of getting out from under it has some appeal. But my school's been good to me, and I would feel like a rat to abandon them in a pinch.
I have always valued time more than money, and I know in some fields (like Cal's, apparently (g)) you can have both. To live where I want to live, though, options are limited, and above everything I value being happy with my job and environment.
18. christino - 7/27/2000 9:25:24 PM
Here's something that's good about not working for the same company as your spouse: You can offer an outside/more objective eye when there are job stressors---which are inevitable in any job.
Additionally if you both work in the same place you tend to consume your away hours talking about work as well since you know all the same people etc.
19. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:29:16 PM
That's true, and it happens to some degree anyway for two reasons-- one is that this area doesn't have a lot of people, so more of us know eachother over longer distances, and being in the same career causes us to talk shop a lot.
20. CalGal - 7/27/2000 9:33:55 PM
Arky, this is a great use of the thread and one of the things I thought it could be used for.
Your description makes it sound as if the schedule and increased time is the major attraction of the new job, with its administrative rules and your general wariness of new situations operating as the major negatives.
It doesn't sound like there is anything terrible about your current job except the heavy schedule, which I know you've mentioned throughout the year--as well as your fear that the things you love about the job are fairly ephemeral and could change with a new administration or an influx of rotten kids. Not unreasonable fears, I might add.
Is that reasonably accurate, or did I miss something?
21. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:42:31 PM
Message # 20
Nope, you've summed it up very well, except for the kids--the ones coming up in the next couple of years are good but very average, and hardly any, if any at all, will likely take advanced English. This could hurt my schedule or make it easier, depending on what they do with the empty slot.
I'm anxious to see what Bob's school says tomorrow.
22. christino - 7/27/2000 9:44:48 PM
Best of luck to you! Keep us posted for sure!
23. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:49:29 PM
Thanks Chris! Y'all have a good evening and I'll fill y'all in tomorrow.
24. CalGal - 7/27/2000 10:03:34 PM
Arky, the other thing to consider is that this is a terrific time in your life to go on an interview. You don't have to get a new job; you like your existing one fine. At the same time you realize that things could change.
This is a terrific position to be in, actually. If nothing else, focus hard on the process of interviewing--on using the time to gather the information you need about the school, the administrator's mindset--and on seeing how you feel about interviewing. Do you think you sell yourself well, do you feel comfortable making your requirements known, do you present yourself with the proper combination of confidence and competence?
So think about using this whole episode as an invaluable learning process--it's not really about whether or not you take the job or not, but how it prepares you for other opportunities.
(it just occurs to me that I'm telling you to be P, instead of J.)
25. Jonesatlaw - 7/27/2000 11:13:44 PM
Arky- Does Bob do a lot of extra-curicular stuff at his school? Does he like it, and do you? The idea of being able to go to one Football game etc. together sounds great. Do you like the community that he teaches in, and do you want to involved in it in more depth?
It's great to go to ball games, plays etc. and see all the kids parents, relatives and whatnot and know your kids in a different setting. But if you're not entirely comfortable with the community, it can be a burden.
26. Jonesatlaw - 7/27/2000 11:22:34 PM
Arky- I realize suddenly that I glossed over the classroom side of things. It sounds like there are going to be advantages to each side in the classroom, but that the ones at your current position are not certain in the long term. The question then is not whether there will be a change in the classroom issues, it is where and when there will be changes.
How do you like the faculty at Bob's school? How do they relate to each other and the administration? Would you feel comfortable with the dominant style at his school?
My parents were both teachers in the same district, but different schools when I was very small. When I was a bit older my father became an administrator, starting out with discipline and athletic director duties. I have very fond memories of going to high school plays, football games, etc. with my parents. It was nice that they were always on the same academic calandar.
27. joezan - 7/27/2000 11:35:36 PM
Today I had my first interview in 6 years (except for the strictly canned, pro forma interview I had to have for the promotion to my current position.) A little scary, as this job's in another, much more urban county. And I've been with my present employer for 12 years.
Anyway, I left feeling really good.
I wasn't exactly sure what the position I was interviewing for entailed, but it pays about 20% more than what I make now for what would be essentially a lateral move at my current job.
Well, once the job was explained to me - a lot different from my job, but nothing I can't handle - I politely told the interviewers (both of whom I know pretty well) that I'd need more money to put up with the crazy hours the job demands.
I knew what their answer would be - it's a county job. So, I thanked them both for their time and prepared to leave.
But then one of them asked me why I hadn't applied for the "other" job. Well - I didn't know about any other job, I replied.
As it turns out, the "other" job happens to be one that fits my particular area of expertise to a tee, and is a position I have been trying to convince my employer to create for me for the past 3 years, to no avail.
28. joezan - 7/27/2000 11:36:37 PM
[continued...]
Did I want to interview for the other job, they asked?
How much does it pay?, I wanted to know.
40% more than I make now? Damn right I'll interview for it! (In my proposals to my current employer to create the position, my salary wouldn't change from what it is!)
Anyway, on with the interview.
The first question was:
Tell us about Joe's theory of managing people.
In a heartbeat, I reply:
I believe that you don't manage people - you manage problems. People you lead and direct.
Big, wide smiles from both men.
Now, this is not a new management concept. In fact, I'd say that it's pretty much always been my style.
However, those were not my words.
Those words I got, about two weeks ago, from...
...a sign on the wall of a garage where I was having new tires put on my van!
29. Jonesatlaw - 7/27/2000 11:39:27 PM
Joezan- Fortune smiles on you! How nice, especially in government work, where they sometimes write job descriptions to determine who gets the job, not what they actually do or what they really need.
35. joezan - 7/27/2000 11:43:49 PM
...and now, I can't get rid of it (the bold).
And thanks, Jones!
36. CalGal - 7/27/2000 11:49:17 PM
Joe--that's a great story. Do jobs in your line of work have a fixed salary? What is behind your decision to interview for a new position--bored at the old job, looking for more money, career enhancement?
37. joezan - 7/28/2000 12:09:35 AM
Cal:
Generally they do, in that the disparities usually reflect the costs of living in different counties. So, for instance, I could easily make 25% more doing the same thing in Wayne County (Detroit area) - but the cost of living is probably 50% higher there.
And who'd wanna live there, anyway? (except Wonkers, of course.)
What happens is, every few years the "parent entity" (in this case the county) will conduct a salary study. These studies are usually instigated by the union employees, but once the county agrees to one (with much arm twisting) they usually encompass all positions -which is good for me, since I am not in a union.
Then the haggling begins over what counties to compare with - the county of course choosing counties which will tend to skew lower, and the unions just the opposite. The way the studt works is, all the workers in a particular position get together and write up a job description, listing all the requirements, duties, etc. This is mostly because a position which appears to be the same as one in another county, may be a lot different.
They present the finished description to their department head, who comments as to the veracity of the thing (as you can imagine, by the time the secretaries are done with it they're running the whole operation, for instance)
[continued...]
38. joezan - 7/28/2000 12:23:45 AM
[..continued]
After all positions have submitted their descriptions, the whole lot is presented to an obstensibly neutral actuarial firm, which does the math and returns the verdict a couple of months later. There are nearly always an equal number of winners and losers.
I made out fairly well with the last one - about 3 years ago - probably because I'm the sole person in my position in the county, and I took on a whole load of new responsibilities from my over-worked boss, in anticipation of the study.
Coincidentally we have just finished a salary study, and the county I interviewed with today happened to be one which the union fought to have included, but which was rejected out-of-hand because it doesn't fit a lot of the demographic criteria they use.
My boss, though, did recommend that my position be bumped up two salary grades, which will be a tidy sum, but not even close to what I will make if I'm hired by the other county.
39. CalGal - 7/28/2000 12:36:06 AM
Joe,
The entire process you describe gives me the hives--as does Arky's "all teacher's salaries are published." I guess that must be the norm when working with governments and schools.
So is your reason for switching jobs a matter of money? (an excellent reason, I might add). Can you work in the private sector, or are all the interesting jobs in your line of work found in social services?
40. joezan - 7/28/2000 12:46:49 AM
Cal:
What is behind your decision to interview for a new position--bored at the old job, looking for more money, career enhancement?
I mentioned here some months ago that I was spearheading my facility's effort to receive accreditation from the most recognized, respected accrediting agency in the field - which would make ours the only facility so accredited in the entire state. Well, our audit was delayed some months because of an administrative change. But I took advantage of the extra time to nail down a few loose boards, so-to-speak. And now there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will come out of the audit, scheduled for the second week in September, in at least 97% compliance, which is excellent.
After that, I will resume my regular duties full time. It's a very rewarding and fun job, but I know that the rewards will pale in comparison, and I will get depressed about it.
The ultimate irony is that if I am offered the position for which I interviewed today, the latest date I can start is the first week in September.
41. joezan - 7/28/2000 1:02:24 AM
Cal:
So is your reason for switching jobs a matter of money? (an excellent reason, I might add). Can you work in the private sector, or are all the interesting jobs in your line of work found in social services?
We really could use the money - my wife hasn't had an income in over 3 years and only worked part-time for 5 years prior to that.
I could work in the private sector, and have, in fact, looked into the prospects very recently - mostly training outfits. The money is pretty good, but it's too much travel. I've looked into some local companies (my cousin works for one and makes very good money), but it's very competitive, and they don't seem to like "ethnic" types.
42. marshame - 7/28/2000 3:57:25 PM
One of the worst work experiences I ever had was when I had to fire someone. The guy was sharp and bright, newly married, with a baby, and relocated in our community to take the job. He was hired as a financial analyst, but he didn't like to do the work (you know, the hard part that they pay you for.) Instead, he wanted to spend his days on the phone networking with his buds from grad school, etc. He was reasonably amiable, but I always felt a slight distain from him. He would frequently stuggle to fight a yawn when I was speaking to him, that kind of thing.
I anguished over firing him for weeks. First I convinced myself that he would come around, and that it was okay that his work was falling to his co-workers to pick up the slack. Then I felt that I would ruin his career and put him and his young family on the street. Then I blamed my boss, who had encouraged me to hire him in the first place. Then I avoided my other employees who were starting to display resentment at his lack of work ethic and my apparent unwillingness to address it.
I would wake up in the morning determined to rehabilitate him and go to bed at night resolved to fire him. The clock ticked toward the end of his 6-month probationary period. I was in misery. I could not share the situation with my immediate boss, as I knew he would blame me either way.
Finally, my (now ex) husband provided the right perspective. He said "Marsha, you don't have the power to ruin this guy's life. In fact, if you let him keep working here, you may well be keeping him from the job that he should be in, where he can make a real contribution, and where they'll be glad to have him."
43. marshame - 7/28/2000 3:57:59 PM
The day came. I asked him to come into my office and I closed the door. Before I had even returned to sit at the desk, I said, "There is no easy way to say this, and there's no point in beating around the bush. Your probation period is up and I'm going to fail you in probation. It has not worked out so you are going to be terminated."
He turned white as a sheet, and looked as stunned as if someone had him hit upside the head with a baseball bat. Then he turned red, then he screwed up his face and started to bawl. I was horrified. I got up and said, "I'm going to let you have a few moments to pull yourself together," and I hastened out the room and closed the door.
Everyone froze at whatever they were doing to watch me, studying my face. I darted out the suite door and paced (jogged?) up and down the corridors trying to calm myself down.
After what seemed like an eternity, I went back in. He had composed himself and now sat scowling at me. "How about if I just work part-time?" he offered. Good grief, I thought. A part-time financial analyst. In that way, he could do nothing in half the time. I told him that would not be acceptable.
But then, in my soft-headed, muddled guiltiness, I told him this: "I will allow you to stay on for 2 weeks." [Note to self: never allow someone you have just fired to stay.] "You can use that time to look for another job. At the end of the two weeks, if I do not have your resignation, I will fire you."
44. marshame - 7/28/2000 3:58:06 PM
So, the guy stayed. For the whole 2 weeks. He sashayed in when he felt like it, sauntered out when he felt like it, sat on the phone for hours at a time, and basically just screwed around for two entire weeks. My other employees looked at him with hatred and at me with contempt. At the end of that interminable two weeks, he placed his resignation on my desk.
Needless to say, he landed on his feet with a job equivalent to my boss's position. A year or two later, he was promoted to city manager of a small suburban community. I actually sent him a congratulatory note, observing that everything had come out well in the end. He did not dain to respond.
45. CalGal - 7/28/2000 6:15:08 PM
Joe,
I'm assuming you've discussed your lack of interest in your regular position with your current management?
Arky mentioned priorities above. I was thinking that the three major priorities in work are satisfaction, compensation, and quality of life. Your posts demonstrate your own priorities and how you balance them--and what you consider to be important in each case.
Of course, then definitions apply. For example, Arky's definition of "job satisfaction" means (I think) that she's comfortable and happy. You specify challenge and (I think) goal-driven work. Myself, I want independence and the ability to create/design. How do other people define job satisfaction, and (as Arky asked earlier) how do you prioritize aspects of your work?
46. CalGal - 7/28/2000 6:20:31 PM
Another priority that isn't usually stated until people run into someone like me is: security. Most people don't mention it as a priority until I suggest that they might have the ability to become a consultant--and then they realize that it's a big deal. (g)
Most people comfortably believe that employment is more secure than contracting. I disagree. It's not that I think that contracting is more secure than employment--it's that I find the tradeoffs to be equal. Each person views a particular employment status through their own prism of values.
An employee thinks, "I get $X /week, barring some disaster. Yes, I could make more money, but I value knowing when the next paycheck comes in and how much it will be."
This makes them feel secure.
Someone like me thinks, "What if some disaster happens and this job ends? If I'm an employee, I am only getting $X/week, and that won't prepare me all that well for the time after that with no income. If I'm a contractor, I'm getting $X + a major big Y/week and I'll make sure I always have extra in the bank, at least three months, and then no matter what happens, I'll have a good bit of time without worrying until I have to find a contract again. So I'm prepared in event of a disaster."
This makes me feel secure.
Most people think that the self-employed are comfortable with risk. This is not a given. It depends on the nature of the employment. Entrepreneurs are comfortable with risk. High-priced consultants (of any variety) are generally uncomfortable with risk--that's why they went into this line of work.
Likewise, many employees are more comfortable with risk than they might think. Taking on new responsibilities without an increase in pay or position, relocating for a new job, accepting a job because you like the manager--all of these, to me, are often incredibly chancy.
It's all a matter of perception.
47. Thoughtful - 7/28/2000 6:20:56 PM
Mamma don't let your babies grow up to be economists.....
48. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 8:28:33 PM
Congratulations, Joe! When will you know?
Well, the interview went well this morning. We were both very casual and he told me to let him know Monday after I talk to my principal and supt. I haven't called them because they don't work on Fridays in the summer, but I'm going to go in Monday morning. The main things I want to know from them are whether my schedule will continue to be like it is now, what things look like in the near future, and whether there looks to be any possibility of a position opening up for Bob in the next two or three years--not that it would change whatever my decision is, but it would be the same benefit in reverse of what I'm considering.
The room is nice, but not as pleasant as mine. There are no outside windows and the floor is concrete. I would have eleven new computers and a whole block (about 1 1/2 hours) to do the annual. My schedule would be very easy compared to what I have now, but not nearly as interesting. I would have a speech/tech writing class, a tenth grade "regular" English class and the yearbook. Same schedule second semester, but with two class slots switched. Money would be about $1000-1500 more with the yearbook stipend. Class sizes will be bigger, but not as much as I thought, and with only two actual classes the preparation and grading would be much more manageable.
I thought an upside of taking this job would be saving money by commuting with Bob, but he went with me today because he had to talk to the principal about something, and on the way home he got into an unpleasant confrontation with a tailgating truck driver, involving a lot of hand signals. Bob was furious. I thought, is this a regular occurrence? But I truly believe this was an isolated incident. Surely.
49. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 8:40:19 PM
WRT to priorities in jobs, I do value being comfortable, but for me that can only come with a lot of independence. I don't know how Bob's school compares to mine--the principal says that he's a hands-off administrator for the most part--but my general impression is that there is more direct involvement in what the teachers are doing and how they're doing it from the administration. I expect to be accountable, but being treated like a professional who knows my job is very important to me.
I have also learned the hard way that I can only do so much before I go into system-overload. If interesting, stimulating and challenging cross the line to stressful, I don't handle it well. That means keeping my workload within what I know are my limits, and I'm concerned that between Mose's activities and my job the line will be well-crossed next year if I stay where I am, though I'll only have to deal with it for 185 days.
On Bob's school, I like what I see for myself, but I don't like how things are going with Bob. They promised some relief in the math department, but instead they want him to teach a full load of fairly large classes, PLUS come in at 7:00 to teach calculus every morning. Ten students signed a petition saying they did not want to take it through distance learning, but would take it if Bob taught it. The compensation is not nearly enough for the extra work and time, so I think Bob will tell them no. I'd hate to go to work there and he up and get a job somewhere else because his workload there is too heavy. Mine, btw, would be unlikely to change.
50. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 10:19:59 PM
Jones,
Somehow I missed your questions earlier. Sorry!
Bob doesn't have a lot of extracurricular stuff there. I would be supervising the annual staff selling sandwiches at lunch daily, which doesn't thrill me, but with the easy schedule I won't mind it too much. They do have to get there earlier and leave later. The rule at my school is don't cut in front of any buses on your way off campus (g).
Bob enjoys the band and girls' basketball the most. He's not much of a football fan and the boys' b-ball team wasn't too good last year. He also has a teacher friend in a rival school and it was fun for them to go to games when the two schools played. The people are very nice to him, and the kids love having him at their events. They're always asking him if he's coming to their games, etc.
Bob also really likes the faculty and administration. I don't know how comfortable I'll be, but I felt good from the interview today. After twelve years at one place I'm used to being pretty autonomous. Even under a new administration that wouldn't change. I won't have any seniority in my dept, but the other English faculty there are all 30+ year teachers, and will likely be gone within the next few years.
I also agree with you about the benefits of working in the same school with a spouse. The schools generally like it, too. My schedule would be very different from Bob's next year if I stay put, though I like it pretty well. My school decided to do something completely different and put in a week-long winter break in Feb and moved spring break to mid-April. No other school I know of around here has done that. Since Mose is in a completely different school, her activities will take priority over the others, but that's only for three more years, so I'm trying to think beyond that.
51. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 10:20:27 PM
BTW, I don't expect to teach more than another ten years, fifteen at the most, and I'm hoping that if I change it will be my last change before retirement. I'm planning to start my masters next year and hope I can go through it with no further job changes. If I take this job and don't like it, though, I would immediately go after something else. This would be the sixth school I've worked in, but the first five were in my first seven years of teaching.
52. joezan - 7/29/2000 12:56:41 AM
Thanks, Arky. I'll know early the second week in August - 10 or 11 days from now.
And good luck, whatever you decide - I know it's not an easy decision.
Cal:
The challenge is definitely what keeps me going, and my job is getting kind of old. My official title is court services training coordinator. But over the past few years we have: developed a fairly radical (for a detention facility) treatment-based behavior program; built a brand new facility; and entered into this accreditation process. I have been intimately involved in all of these projects, so my actual job has been on the back burner for the entire time I've been in this position (which is probably why I love my job - it is actually these "peripheral" projects which provide most of the challenge. .)
I am, though, on the faculty of the Michigan Supreme Court's Judicial Institute, which sponsors the training in the core curriculum of all court positions in the state. I really like doing these seminars, because I've got a much larger, more diverse audience, from all over the state. It's also the best way to network. But this is only 3 or 4 times a year, and is at the whim of my court, since they have to pay my salary and expenses while I'm off teaching people from other counties for 3 - 5 days at a time.
53. CalGal - 7/29/2000 12:16:36 PM
I have some other comments on Arky and Joe's posts, but I wanted to post a link to this--it's a Times' article, so I'm not sure when it expires:
Workers Challenge Employer Policies on Pay Confidentiality
The title is misleading, apparently, since there is nothing to challenge (again, according to the article):
In fact, it is already illegal to forbid discussions of pay, under federal labor laws enacted in 1935. For 65 years, the administrative courts of the National Labor Relations Board have held in case after case that employees are free to reveal their wages to one another, and that people fired for doing so must be reinstated.
But with organized labor in a deep decline, few employees know about the labor laws any more. And a lot of employers erroneously assume the statutes do not apply to nonunion employees.
I am amazed that any employer would try to fire an employee for revealing their salary information (presumably to another employee). If nothing else, it seems to me a violation of free speech. California has its own law restricting these policies--what are other states like?
And now, I'm off to hopefully find Glendajean's house. Wish me luck!
56. DocBrown - 8/1/2000 2:46:07 PM
I am amazed that any employer would try to fire an employee for revealing their salary information (presumably to another employee).
This surprises me, too. Businesses constantly survey each other to find out what they pay for certain jobs. They set their salary ranges based on this data; it is the heart of modern compensation practice.
At the same time, professional organizations constantly survey their members for the same data. They want this information for exactly the opposite purpose. If an employee fills out a pay survey for his/her professional organization, can he/she be fired? Of course not!
But any business can terminate any employee at any time, as long as they are sneaky enough. They can terminate you for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all, provided they show no evidence of discrimination.
57. janjon - 8/1/2000 2:54:51 PM
I'm amazed that anyone would be amazed that some employers will fire employees for discussing their pay with other employees. Not that I approve of the policy, I hasten to add. Any situation where there can be (for any number of reasons) disparities (perhaps wide) in pay (and/or perks) among employees who, more or less, are at the same level (or who perceive themselves to be of the same level in terms of factors like seniority, performance, skills, etc etc etc.) is a situation where knowledge in the ranks about relative pay levels is bound to be trouble.
All in all, however, I would say that a company that has to resort to a don't tell or else policy is a badly run company with wrong-headed philosophies on how to run its business.
58. joezan - 8/2/2000 7:54:38 AM
Well, that's one thing I'll never have to wonder about - they published my salary in the newspaper after the last salary study, and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't again.
59. PelleNilsson - 8/2/2000 8:35:40 AM
When I started out here long ago it was the Swedish Telecommunications Administration, a state agency. Every job had a grade and a thick book came out every year listing all 40,000 employees and their grades. It was studied intensely. Him promoted!? Ha!
60. DanDillon - 8/2/2000 8:51:09 AM
I'm feeling adequately emboldened by this thread and the initial posts in it to come forward with a confession.
I have decided to quit teaching.
I've been an educator for over six years, and I've finally come to realize that I am worth far more than the rewards I get for the time and effort I spend doing my work. To be sure, these "rewards" I refer to are not all monetary. Along with little money, however, I would mention a lack of respect for what I do (by both my peers and my students), a lack--or perhaps the total absence--of efficiency and dynamism in my profession, and the toil-to-spoil ratio's effect on my life at home.
I will teach this year, but the '00-'01 school year will be my last. Sure, I may return to it later on down the line (I reserve the right to be wrong, after all), but I need to date around and see what I'm missing. I saw a sign on a 7-11/Circle K-type establishment the other day that was touting $32,500 for an assistant manager, plus a signing bonus. This place was out in the middle of nowhere just off the interstate. I work in a fairly wealthy suburb, and I make considerably less than that. I nearly wailed.
I'm no missionary. Teaching is a highly impractical profession. It does not allow to me to maintain the quality of life I want my family to enjoy. I served my time in the Peace Corps. I'm through being a volunteer. If I choose to practice altruism, I wish to do so with some extra cash in my pocket. Teaching is altruism. And there's more to my life than being nice and poor and, by logical extension, stupid.
61. PelleNilsson - 8/2/2000 9:00:06 AM
What are your options, Dan? Or are you thinking about something specific already?
62. DanDillon - 8/2/2000 9:35:22 AM
My options are endless, really. I've got marketing/advertising/public relations in mind, as well as internal and external communications. I'm headed for something large, something corporate, something "business casual."
I know that I can get the job, but I want to be sure that I get the job I want. I've got a whole year (and next summer off) to research, inverstiagate, narrow down, and interview. This time next year, I'll be at my new work--at probably 1.5 times my current pay.
63. christipeters - 8/2/2000 9:45:58 AM
There are three former teachers in my divisions marketing department that quit teaching for similar reasons as you cite. As a parent who wants my child to have great teachers, I think it's a shame. As a parent who knows what it's like to be the sole support of her family, I can certainly understand wanting better pay.
64. christipeters - 8/2/2000 9:50:53 AM
I once had a career that I loved and found infinitely rewarding. I had my own stable where I raised, took care of, and trained my horses, and taught riding lessons both to people who just wanted to learn to ride or improve their competitive perfomance and as therapy to children and teens who had problems. I loved every minute and made enough money to be comfortable as long as I was careful.
Now I have a job. Don't get me wrong, it's a good job. I have interesting problems to solve, enough variety and challenge to stave off boredom without being overly pushed or stressed, and great people to work with. However, I don't love this job or find it as rewarding as I did when I was teaching riding lessons. I am here to get enough money to take care of myself and my daughter. Period.
65. theDiva - 8/2/2000 9:53:57 AM
(nodding her head in sympathy and recognition.)
66. phillipdavid - 8/2/2000 10:04:42 AM
Arky,
Just read the last twenty posts, and I suspect there may be something more than you realize to Bob's negative emotional outbursts on the ride home from school the other day.
It's nice to have some space in a relationship, and it's difficult to lose the space if you enjoy it or need it. That is true for me, at least.
67. christipeters - 8/2/2000 10:08:50 AM
Thanks Diva.
I don't think I need sympathy, however. I don't think there is anything wrong or bad with having a job simply for the money to support yourself and your family. God knows there are a lot of people who do! I suppose it would be wonderful if everyone was able to make a living doing something they love, but it doesn't work out that way for many people.
As for me, I certainly don't mean to imply that I hate my job - I don't. I am very lucky to have found another way to support us that is interesting and challenging and very well paying when I could no longer meet the physical requirements of the horse business.
(Well, I'm off to take the daughter to the doctor. Have a good day, y'all)
68. theDiva - 8/2/2000 10:10:21 AM
I don't mean sympathy as in 'awww....', more like sympathy as in "I understand." Which is really empathy, I guess.
69. theDiva - 8/2/2000 10:27:52 AM
the posts about public employees' salaries and the lack of compensation for teachers (also public employees) has me wondering.....if we were to increase the pay scale for teachers, how would we fund it? Increased local taxes? Bear in mind that the lions share of public education funding comes from local sources. Curtailed spending in other service areas? Which service areas?
How would we ensure public accountability? Would we then require more of teachers in the way of continuing education? Would teachers be subject to annual performance evaluations and receive merit-based pay increases?
Would we then increase the pay scale for other public employees with comparable measures of responsibility and for whom comparable credentials are required?
70. theDiva - 8/2/2000 10:49:22 AM
Our public school system has an FY2001 budget of $392,329,706. Funding percentage breakdown is as follows:
County 45.8%
State 49.6%
Fed 2.7%
City 0.4% (there are incorporated cities which use County schools)
Undistrib 0.3% (I have no idea what this is)
Carryover 1.3% (money left from last year's budget)
Out of this budget:
74.2% schools and instructional programs
6.4% debt service
3.8% central support
9.2% maintenance and operations
5.5% transportation
.9% general reserve
And
64.1% Salaries
18.1% benefits
3.4% supplies (!)
2.8% equipment
3.3% services
3.1% utilities
3.6% capital projects
1.6% reserves
So where do you cut? Or how do you gain citizen support for increased taxes to pay for increased services? Our citizens rejected a 1% meals tax - one stinking percent! - on three seperate occasions...the $$ would have gone directly to the schools.
71. theDiva - 8/2/2000 10:50:36 AM
oops. Separate.
72. Dusty - 8/2/2000 1:29:24 PM
DanDillon
Sorry to hear about your decision. Based upon your posts, it is clear that you are a special teacher. But if that job represents a salary increase, it is equally clear that you are sacificing a lot to remian as a teacher. More of a sacrifice than is reasonable.
Good luck with the job search.
73. christipeters - 8/2/2000 2:19:36 PM
Diva - gotcha on the empathy part.
I think one of the problems with getting public support of increasing teacher pay (support as in actually passing funding - be it bond, tax, whatever) is partly one of perception. I have heard:
1. They only work 9 mos of the year and only 8-3 at that.
IME, teachers work from 7:30 to 5pm and then spend long hours at home in the evening planning lessons and grading papers. The school system here only breaks for 8 - 9 wks in the summer. During that time, most teachers are required to take classes or other activities to maintain their certification.
2. Teaching isn't very hard, teacher's don't receive a very thorough education, people go into teaching because they aren't smart enough to do anything else, etc etc
I know I couldn't deal with a classroom full of kids day after day trying to teach them something.
I know a lot of the people I know are very bright and went into teaching because they really love teaching and kids. Unfortunately these people many times get discouraged in the public school system and change careers after 5 - 10 years teaching.
IMO, there is some justification for criticizing the standards at many colleges educational departments and there is room for improvement in the quality of education our teachers get.
3."I shouldn't pay taxes for education because I don't have kids so I'm getting no return for my money."
Can't they see that these kids become the pilots flying their plane, the police keeping them safe, the doctor or dentist they see, the salesclerk who knows how to actually help them properly, the CPA who does their taxes, etc etc? And that's not even going into the whole issue that an educated and employed person is less likely to be the criminal mugging them, or on welfare, etc
74. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:03:50 PM
PD,
I laughed a little when I read your post. Sometimes roadrage is just roadrage. But Bob and I have talked extensively about the situation and there is a problem. We commuted together 4 and 1/2 years, so we're used to that, and the convenience and savings on gas and vehicles, especially with Mose going a different direction and later having her own vehicle, is a huge plus; and on the job we only have to interact on the way to and from work if we want to. Also, we spend a great deal of time together outside work--more than any couple I personally know--and we are best of friends who don't hesitate to speak up (sometimes not a good thing, I admit), so things shouldn't stew if there's a problem. That's why we're hashing out every detail we can think of before we make a change.
The problem is that Bob isn't happy with his job situation right now, and he doesn't want to feel obligated to stay if I go to work there. I told him that I think part of the reason they called me was to make him feel exactly that. He doesn't want to come in at 7:00 am to teach an extra class, one he would have to do a great deal of preparation for, for almost no extra money. The students who wanted to take calculus specifically requested him and his superintendent promised him that that they would get the math dept "some help" this year. As far as he knows they didn't even look.
Well, what Bob has done has told them what he intends to have next year if he is to return to work there and that he won't come in to teach calculus this year. They will have to make the time for it, at least after school. He really can't come in in the mornings, and if he did our separate commute would defeat a lot of the financial benefit of me working there.
75. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:13:17 PM
This is all symptomatic of a much bigger problem, which DanD has poignantly illustrated with his explanation of his decision to change jobs (a sad event, and a common one in hs education any more). There is getting to be a serious teacher shortage in many areas because of the great economy and variety of job options which pay more and offer more opportunities than teaching, and teachers know they deserve more. This has been a problem in the maths and sciences, but it's expanding to almost every field. Math is so strained, that it's causing situations like Bob's, in which the teachers who are there are so overloaded and underpaid they leave too, resulting in a vicious cycle. His principal told him he looked into new math ed graduates and discovered there were only FIVE graduated in the entire state last May. Four math teachers quit at once in a Texarkana high school, and my principal told me that Texas schools are paying AR ed grads signing bonuses to come there and work.
My boss said that five years ago, for every job they had fifty applicants. If I quit there they will probably have to overload everyone with my load and limp along until they can find someone, probably not until the following school year. Even Mose's school, a much bigger one with a large pool of college grads to choose from, had to pull a man out of retirement to be the principal in the hs next year.
I've been doing this 19 years, and, at least in AR, this is the first time I've seen things in a crisis mode regarding the availability of certified teachers and administrators.
76. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:18:51 PM
The reason I stay in teaching, btw, is 1) I love it and it's not a stressful job to me, 2) I enjoy the time off, 3) I can live where I want to live, and since I'm not in an urban area I can generally do more with less--my house would cost a third again as much if I had it in town, according to the appraiser, and cost of living is cheaper here than in Little Rock or Hot Springs--I can't speak for anywhere else, 4) I will be able to retire at 50 at the earliest, and I can continue or not after that, full or parttime, as long as I'm enjoying it.
77. theDiva - 8/2/2000 3:23:49 PM
arky (and phillipdavid, too, since you're a veteran teacher)
do you feel there is less respect now for the profession than when you started?
78. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:28:53 PM
Great post, Christi.
On my situation, I've decided to take the job for several reasons. My school is going to change more quickly than I'd even thought, I'm afraid. My principal, who is a great guy, was very supportive and honest with me, and there are some variables that I won't go into here which indicate that things won't be the same there within the next couple of years. The commute is dangerous, the teaching load has been a lot, though I've enjoyed that since my class sizes are so small--it just keeps me from getting bored or stagnating.
They've always given me everything they could, and that's one reason I've always been happy there, though I could have made more with less work elsewhere. They don't have a big athletic department sucking funds away and their first priority has always been academics. But they're a small, poor district, and they can't sail in and offer me any more money or any less work. It has always been their policy to let any teacher who finds a better situation, or has to leave for any reason, out of a contract, and they will do the same for me. I'm going to talk to my superintendent tomorrow, a man whom I have more respect for than almost anyone I know. I will continue to stay in touch with teachers and kids there. With a centrally located Wal-Mart and email, you never really lose touch with anyone around here any more.
79. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:33:21 PM
"do you feel there is less respect now for the profession than when you started?"
Not me, Diva. I've always felt valued and loved in my current school, but I've seen that trend increase at other schools, as well, and with Bob's school. They love him there and don't want to lose him, but it's very likely to happen. We're just so much more overburdened, and with increased accountability for student performance but decreased time to help them the pressure's getting too much for many teachers, coupled with salaries that simply aren't competitive any more.
Bob's college prof told him that math ed majors are getting approached in their jr years by companies like AP&L with $25,000 signing bonuses and great starting salaries. What I want to know is...
Why weren't they there when Bob graduated!!
80. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:53:47 PM
Oh my, it looks like I've done it again...just like work.
OK, YOU GUYS! HEADS UP OFF THOSE DESKS!!!
...and I promise to end the windy lectures!
81. Greystoke - 8/2/2000 7:41:14 PM
7-Eleven fires clerk.
Antonio Feliciano, a 7-Eleven employee who foiled a robbery by wrestling a sawed-off rifle from a would-be assailant, was fired for breaking the store's rule on robberies that says: Just hand over the cash.
Feliciano said the company rule wasn't his primary concern when he grabbed the armed assailant.
``I just wanted to be sure that I was coming home that night,'' he said.
Company officials said they fired Feliciano on Monday to emphasize the policy.
82. AytchMan - 8/2/2000 10:20:05 PM
Greystoke--
Your 7-11 story has triggered massive cognitive dissonance in my brainpan. In this day of lawsuits and cover-your-ass, 7-11's action seems eminently sensible. And yet, it's unbelievable.
I must now prepare myself a collins.
83. DanDillon - 8/2/2000 10:46:40 PM
Addendum
Don't get me wrong. I abolutely love teaching. I love it more than any other job I'm likely to ever have. I look forward to Mondays and could take or leave Fridays for this very reason: being in the classroom is usually bliss. And even when it's bad, I still feel a sense of accomplishment. I'm going to miss my students and the act of teaching a great deal.
Just not enough. My time in the classroom accounts for only about 50% of my time at (or doing) work overall.
84. phillipdavid - 8/2/2000 11:20:35 PM
Diva,
I never feel disrespected, but I am a little weird. I simply enjoy my job too much to consider the negatives. It's all bright and sunshiny in my little world of teaching. Even though I work in the lowest paying district in the state, I have lived well enough and haven't felt deprived. In other jobs I was like a duck waddling down an asphalt road, but the classroom is like a lake where I glide smoothly and am in my element. So plain and simple, I have been simply happy as a teacher.
But if I start to think about it, then I can easily come up with reasons to feel disrespected if I choose to. I have only been teaching for 7 years, and the republican legislature in my state has been attacking teachers-- their pay, their unions, their benefits, their certification requirements, and their contractual securities-- since I have started teaching. Ironically, the state has instituted fairly rigorous skill standards for the students at the same time, increasing the demands and pressure on us to perform.((my old Sun'sEye article: Per Ardua Ad Astra: Education Transformation in Oregon)
And since my community has just passed a school bond measure for the first time in its history, I feel like it must have a certain amount of respect for the good work we are doing.
85. Greystoke - 8/2/2000 11:22:02 PM
AytchMan
"And yet, it's unbelievable."
Perhaps 7-Eleven should modify their policy so that just the employees who get wounded during a robbery get fired. Then, no matter what happened, they could claim the employee took the wrong course of action.
86. AytchMan - 8/2/2000 11:39:33 PM
Grey--
3ha. I think you're on to something. However, in a spirit of compassion, I would like to see the company allow murdered employees to petition for reinstatement.
87. CalGal - 8/2/2000 11:44:19 PM
I've said this before, but it always irritates me when anyone tells you to not resist if you are faced with an armed robber. With any luck, some family will sue 7-11 after an employee is killed while not resisting--on the grounds that 7-11's policy caused him or her to lose their life while attempting to keep their job.
88. Greystoke - 8/2/2000 11:47:44 PM
Aytchman
No doubt their policy is geared toward defending themselves from lawsuits resulting from employees being wounded and killed during robberies.
To me, it seems quite a stretch to seek monetary damages from an employer because his store was robbed. But lawyers and juries have a logic all their own.
89. Greystoke - 8/2/2000 11:51:28 PM
CalGal
Soon, I bet we will be reading a news story that matches your scenario.
90. CalGal - 8/2/2000 11:54:41 PM
Dan, I'm sorry you can't make a reasonable living from your avocation. As Arky points out, yours is a common decision these days.
Arky, it sounds as if you have made up your mind? Can you wait one more year to be sure, or are the factors you hint at pretty conclusive?
91. CalGal - 8/3/2000 12:06:11 AM
Oh, and Arky, I still would love to see you look into contracting back to your current school, charging them beaucoup bucks to teach AP English in the afternoon. Or maybe early in the morning.
92. CalGal - 8/3/2000 12:22:14 AM
As far as teaching and salaries go, I don't know that it will ever be satisfactorily resolved. The public won't support an across the board increase for teachers for any number of reasons, but even if they did, it would be damn near impossible to start rewarding teachers based on merit in any meaningful way. Public schools rely heavily on the notion that all teachers are wonderful--i.e., all teachers are equal. Remove that and you'll have a mess, I think.
BTW, I think this discussion is very interesting and I in no way want to put a stop to it--but I would like to request that we keep it focused on careers, employment, salaries and the like. Which means that we can examine ways that we the public can pay teachers more, or if it is possible. But I'd rather we not get into education issues except to the extent that it touches on salaries, ability to pay, supply and demand, and so on.
It has been wonderfully on topic thus far (I hasten to add). It's just that I'd rather we not morph into an education thread--and actually, I'm kind of interested in what happens to a teaching salary discussion that can't rely on the familiar touchstones.
93. joezan - 8/3/2000 1:45:17 AM
While I'm not familiar with all of the ins and outs of salary scales for teachers in this area, it seems that they are relatively pretty well-paid, especially considering the lower cost of living - about $32,000 for the average new teacher, on up to well over $70,000, depending upon degree and years of service.
Every teacher I know who's come here from another district says the same thing: the degree to which the parents show concern - by showing up at conferences and meetings, helping out in the classroom (I offered my services two years in a row for two hours twice a week, and was placed on a waiting list. I finally got to help out one day a month for 1 1/2 hours at a time), etc, made all the difference.
Every time my wife or I have called our daughter's school over the last 3 years, the same woman has answered the phone - she's a volunteer. As are most of the assistant librarians, playground attendants, and other non-essential personnel.
Neither the bus drivers nor the custodians make anywhere near what the teachers do - which is not the case in a lot of districts - certainly, none of the above was true in any NY district I've ever worked with.
All of this adds up, and is the main reason we can afford to pay our teachers so well.
94. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:00:16 AM
It might make the difference as far as working environment, but it has nothing to do with how much teachers get paid. Every parent in a dirtpoor district could volunteer five hours a week and it won't give their district the tax base to pay teachers properly--even assuming they wanted to.
Of course, location is an acceptable reason for salary differences, so it doesn't carry the same baggage that variance because of performance.
95. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:07:26 AM
CalGal:
It might make the difference as far as working environment, but it has nothing to do with how much teachers get paid.
I beg to differ.
Where do you think the money comes from to pay those clerical and support personnel?
96. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:18:16 AM
...for instance, three or four years ago, after the teachers received their best contract ever, the bus drivers and kitchen help were forced to take 10% - 15% cuts in pay under the threat that the school district would contract the work out in order to help defray the cost of the teachers' contract.
97. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:19:43 AM
Joe,
You still need X amount of teachers, and you need to pay them Y. All the volunteerism in the community won't get the taxes to cover reasonable salaries if the people in the community don't make enough money to pay them all.
It's not only poor communities, either. If a suburban community decides to give themselves a tax break, what are the parents going to do?
To say nothing of the fact that any salary schedule that relies on parental slave labor is profoundly unreliable.
Imagine a grocery store that asks its customers to bag their own groceries and stock the shelves--all so that they can pay the cashiers more.
I realize that this approach is what many communities have taken--that along with those fundraiser atrocities that they inflict upon us every four weeks or so--but while it might be worth a backpat or two from a communal and societal perspective, it's hardly a successful or practical business model.
98. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:21:52 AM
Paying teachers more money at the expense of busdrivers and clerks might make us feel pious, but who is to say that this is the best solution for the community at large?
Oh, and I forgot to mention in my last post that the other problem with parental "volunteerism" is that they are depriving a number of other people of employment.
99. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:23:15 AM
And on the other side of the coin, we have the NYC schools - the most bloated and among the least effective in the nation.
At issue in every teachers' contract cycle is the money the City pays the school custodians, who retire at a higher wage, and have a much more lucrative retirement package than the teachers.
The teachers will continue to lose out there as long as the custodians belong to the Teamsters and they (the teachers) don't.
100. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:30:56 AM
...while it might be worth a backpat or two from a communal and societal perspective, it's hardly a successful or practical business model.
Maybe so.
...but our high school has been a finalist in the National Science Olympiad in each of the past 7 years, winning 1st place twice. And my daughter's tiny, rural elementary school was a finalist in this year's Global Destination Imagination competition.
From the perspective that actually counts here (unless your school is but another "business") it is an excellent educational model - exemplary, in fact.
101. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:32:27 AM
Does a centennial count?
102. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:35:22 AM
So basically we have the community as the equivalent as a business, the teachers as just one of many types of employees, and the customers, who are pretty much guaranteed service of some sort regardless of how they behave as consumers.
I don't want this to go down the path of "let free markets run the schools", since that gets old and is an education discussion, not a salary discussion. So I'd rather not hear about what we "should" do. (As Stuart sez, let's not should all over ourselves.)
So assume that teacher attrition continues to be a problem. What happens?
103. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:37:46 AM
Are you addressing joezan, or the room?
104. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:38:04 AM
From the perspective that actually counts here (unless your school is but another "business") it is an excellent educational model - exemplary, in fact.
Not really. For one thing, there's no guarantee that your success is actually due to all those parents robbing busdrivers and clerks of jobs. And to a certain extent, schools do have to operate as businesses--obviously, they differ in key areas.
105. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:38:55 AM
Both, either.
106. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:45:53 AM
Cal, I don't believe that you believe one word of this b.s. you're spouting.
Nevertheless, I can tell you that this whole region has negative unemployment, and there are no ex-busdrivers or kitchenladies going wanting - in fact, I don't think even one of them quit as a result of their pay reductions (which in itself should tell you something).
And, btw - we do things the sensible way in Michigan. The schools are funded from the state sales tax and the lottery.
107. DaveM - 8/3/2000 2:46:53 AM
I have a quick comment that is on point for the thread, but not for the education pay discussion: I just filled out my on campus interview (OCI) preferences for firm related jobs. I am pretty sure that I don't want to work for a firm (maybe a plaintiff's firm, but none of them are invited to OCI - a gripe for another day), but I think that the interview experience will be educational.
I got to select 50 firms from over 500 that will be attending; I have access to all sorts of information about them, such as their areas of practice, size, location, pay scale, etc. I chose a few firms in the DC area, a few San Francisco firms (basically, firms where I have friends working), a few NY firms, and a bunch of firms in the Midwest/Chicago area. A lot of my classmates are REALLY worked up about this whole process - it could easily determine where they spend a large part of their careers (summer associates usually try to get hired after graduation). They poured over all of the firms, have been attending interview "classes" with the Career office, and have basically been stressing out about the process since May. It is an interesting process.
108. DaveM - 8/3/2000 2:48:08 AM
103. joezan - 8/3/00 2:37:46 AM
Are you addressing joezan, or the room?
Is this Joezan's kid again?
109. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:56:09 AM
Y? R U the fuzzy hedded libral my dad always laffs abot?
110. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:59:03 AM
The schools are funded from the state sales tax and the lottery.
That's true in California, too, but isn't that on top of what they get from local property taxes? I don't think lottery funds the whole budget. But if they do, surely you aren't going to argue that that is in any way preferable to taxes, are you? Since lotteries are usually disproportionately played by the lower middle class and poor, it doesn't say anything terrific about how we fund our schools. I'm glad it's successful, of course, but I hardly see anything morally superior about bypassing the money of the rich and the middle class--who don't like to vote themselves higher taxes--and taking the money of the poor and the not particularly bright instead. I won't argue it's morally inferior, of course, but it's hardly anything to brag about. (much further down this line gets political, so we can move it to another thread).
And yes, I am serious. Sure, right now you are in negative employment, but that's the whole point. It's a pretty crummy model if it can't stand a slump--and not only would it break, it'd come splitting apart at the seams. And any model that requires parental involvement in order to succeed financially is nothing I would ever recommend.
Sorry, but this isn't an education thread, so I don't have to congratulate you on your wonderful education achievements. I don't think highly of any system that requires volunteers in order to fill in the gaps.
111. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:00:42 AM
Dave,
Why aren't you worked up about it? Aren't you worried you'll accidentally pick a firm that wants to make money?
112. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:04:56 AM
Cal -
No. I won't work for any of the firms - I just want to find out about the application process. I'm not opposed to making money by the way, I just try not to let it run my life.
113. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:06:45 AM
Joezan Jr. -
Ronald Reagan is not god. Ronald Reagan is not god. Ronald Reagan is not god.
114. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:07:00 AM
I was teasing; I apologize if it sounded sarcastic.
You don't want to work for any of these firms, or for any firm at all?
115. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:08:38 AM
Oh, and Dave--relatively few people let money run their lives. One can want to make a lot of money, even, and still be in the driver's seat.
116. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:11:48 AM
Cal -
I knew you were teasing. Sometimes it takes me a while to get down of my horse (it's pretty high, you know).
I don't really want to work for any firm. I want to get a masters in history or philosophy and then try to get a job either in politics or in the media (as if there is a difference).
I can see myself working with a firm at some point, just not in the near future. But, of course, you never know. I worked for a firm all of last Summer, and it wasn't actually that bad. I enjoyed the give and take of the litigation process, even if I didn't really give a shit about the cases I worked on. I worked exclusively on construction contract cases, so if I can enjoy that, I'll probably be pretty happy anywhere I go.
117. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:13:56 AM
So you're going to law school but once you finish you'll go back to school again?
118. joezan - 8/3/2000 3:19:10 AM
Cal:
First, no - not one cent of property taxes goes to the schools. Around 7 years ago my property taxes were cut more than 50% while the sales tax went up just 2%. No matter how you cut it, it's a much more fair way of funding schools, all of which now get more money than when they relied on property taxes.
Second, the lottery existed before it was used for the schools. So there goes that argument.
Third, volunteerism at schools around here, as in much of the midwest, has always been very high. Parents here have always realized their obligation to be involved in their children's education (and that this obligation goes way beyond yelling at the teachers when their kid doesn't perform) as well as other civic responsibilities - a virtue long forgotten in much of the rest of the country. Here, it is a way of life, and viewed with as much importance as working a paying job.
I don't think anyone here is concerned about a dearth of volunteers in an economic downturn.
119. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:22:20 AM
Joe,
You're missing the point. So I'll just leave it at this: if schools need all parents to give up 10 hours a week in order to pay their teachers, give it up now.
120. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:22:59 AM
Cal -
Yeah, I will probably stay in school. I might TA while getting a masters (I should be able to get one in one year) or I might get a job as a Hill staffer or something like that and go to school at night.
121. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:26:52 AM
Gawd, I'm thinking of going back to school now and the very idea gives me hives. I can't imagine going for more than half your adult life.
122. joezan - 8/3/2000 3:31:46 AM
Cal:
Haha! Didn't I just explain a little while ago that I tried to give them 4 hours per week, and was put on a waiting list, the result of which got me in there for 1 1/2 hours a month?
Do you know why this is? It's because in my daughter's school of 300 students there are always over 60 parent volunteers.
123. joezan - 8/3/2000 3:37:26 AM
Kill the volunteers! They're - GASP! - stealing the jobs!
124. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:41:48 AM
Uh Cal? Even if I get a masters after law school I'll be finished by 24.
125. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:51:05 AM
Joe,
Like I said--in an education thread, the school might be congratulated.
Believe me when I say that if a school came to me asking me to volunteer so that they could pay their teachers more, I would do two things: 1) laugh in their face and tell them I'd be removing my child from the school immediately and 2) consider switching parties and starting to vote for private school tax credits, because I'd be damned if I'd want my tax dollars going to morons who thought relying on parents was an effective way to manage a school.
Now. The issue isn't whether or not you approve of my reaction. The issue is how prevalent my reaction--or some other, more tactful version of "fuck off"--would be if all the schools in America felt justified in intruding on their parents to beg them to put other people out of work so that they could pay their teachers more. If you don't think it's the majority, best think again.
So you can congratulate yourself all you want on how great your school is--but it won't scale as a solution for teacher's salaries.
126. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:51:45 AM
Dave,
Which means you've been in school for all your adult life. No wonder you're odd.
127. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:53:45 AM
One more comment on Joe's lauding of volunteerism:
Either it is truly voluntary or it isn't. If it isn't voluntary, then why take away jobs by forcing people to volunteer for paying jobs--or make the parents give time when they could just as easily give money?
Just create a public school tax and slap it on the parents. It has the same effect and it's a lot easier to manage--and is a lot more reliable as a means of getting money to pay for teachers.
128. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:54:51 AM
Actually, I haven't been. I graduated from college at nineteen and took two years off. I worked for the state of Kentucky, for a landscaping company, and for a law firm.
129. CalGal - 8/3/2000 4:05:50 AM
Then it's still more than half your adult life, so why were you protesting?
I had a friend like you once. She went to school for about 14 years and got 5 degrees. When she finally finished school she got divorced and put on 30 pounds.
On the other hand, schools couldn't exist without folks like you to provide teachers with both employment and TAs, so enjoy.
Now. Joe has touted volunteerism as the great solution to teacher's salaries. I disagree, obviously. But I asked a question a while back and (for those of you tuning in in the morning), I'd be interested in your feedback. Suppose the teacher dearth continues. What will happen?
130. joezan - 8/3/2000 4:08:01 AM
Cal:
You are thick-headed, and pretending that you haven't read what I've said.
The school does not - I repeat, does not "beg" for parents to volunteer.
Nor was anyone put out of a job by the parents - in fact, it could very well be argued that the parents were there first, and if the school decided to hire on more help, it is the volunteers who would be displaced.
And please - stop with this crap about "in an education thread". The question was asked - by you, btw - what could be done to improve the situation of teachers. I offer a perfectly good solution which happens to require that parents get off their dead asses and get involved, and blow your assumptions about why it can't work out of the water in the process, and you catch a major league case of obtuseness.
The system here is so superior, on so many levels, that to reject it as you have - whether you approve of the use of volunteers or not - is laughable.
Good night.
131. CalGal - 8/3/2000 4:27:27 AM
Joe,
I haven't developed a major case of obtuseness at all. Your example doesn't blow any theory out of the water--in fact, it violates one of my major premises. Namely, that you are not to discuss "shoulds".
I offer a perfectly good solution which happens to require that parents get off their dead asses and get involved,
That's a "should". "Parents should volunteer more, they should be involved, they should care about their kids schools" blah blah blah.
No offense, but that's bullshit. In our current system, parents have no moral requirement to go above and beyond their tax dollars to pay for schools--that is the entire thinking behind public schools--it is the PUBLIC who funds them.
So we either keep this model, which means you don't rely on parents doing something that they have no moral or legal obligation to do--and which could also create a whole host of other problems by "volunteering" real jobs out of existence. Or we change the model and accept the fact that any parent who sends their child to a "public" school should be paying more for that privilege. Then it isn't voluntary, and we don't have to ask them for time. We just make them pay more money (parents only) as part of their tax bill, and use that to fund teacher salaries.
I think it is Thoughtful who always reminds us that the plural of anectdote isn't data. Your system works for you. Great. But there are any number of reasons why it can't be recreated elsewhere--and that's even assuming that the success you touted has anything to do with the fact that you use parent volunteerism to put people out of work and save money to pay more in teacher salaries.
132. DaveM - 8/3/2000 4:28:24 AM
Cal -
I had a friend like you once. She went to school for about 14 years and got 5 degrees. When she finally finished school she got divorced and put on 30 pounds.
Honey, you are really funny. 22% of my class has a masters degree - it is almost required for a lot of specialty areas, like intellectual property law. The average age of my class mates is around 25. I am just gonna get one afterwards.
Suppose the teacher dearth continues. What will happen?
Teacher salaries will rise. Home schooling will increase in popularity. That is actually an interesting topic - is the rise of home schooling an effect or cause of the dearth of teachers (or is it unrelated)? Requirements for becoming a teacher will be lowered. Universities will invest more in their education degree programs. Public schools will see even less support - voucher type programs will come about.
But, then again, who cares. This should be a state issue right?
As an interesting aside, my father is on the school board for the public school system in my home town. The school district is the worst in the state of KY - one of the lowest achieving states in the Union. He has really raised hell - the school superintendent has been fired, the principal replaced, the state has come in to do two thorough audits. There has been an inordinate amount of petty bickering -some school board members (there are only five members) quashed the results of the audits, not even letting the other board members have access to them.
The former superintendant had been taking all of the funding increases allocated by the state to the District (since it was "troubled") and investing them in more administrators and raises for preexisting administrators (read: jobs for his buddies). In this situation, the question of a lack of teachers/low pay was pretty easy to fix - fire about half the administrators.
133. CalGal - 8/3/2000 4:29:56 AM
Don't get me wrong--I asked for predictions for what would happen if the teacher dearth continued, and I think your prediction is a reasonable enough prediction for what will happen in small, homogenous communities where everyone knows each other, the bus drivers and clerks come from a different town, and neighbors can ostracize or "guilt" non-performers into volunteering when times are short. I don't think it will work in the long run for even those communities, but you never know.
So I am not rejecting it as a prediction. But I got the impression you were offering it as a solution, and for the reasons I've mentioned, I don't think it will fly.
Oh, and as for the "crap" about an education thread--I was just trying to ensure that we made a distinction between the two. I'm not looking for happy children and happy parents--they're just the customer. This is an employment thread, where we're discussing teacher salaries. I'm very skeptical of any "solution" that requires the customers to voluntarily pay to increase the salaries of the workers providing a service.
134. DaveM - 8/3/2000 4:41:26 AM
I agree with Cal that, although Joe's system seems pretty good, it is not a viable "reform" plan. It is tantamount to fiating the problem out of existence.
I think an interesting program would be to have policy makers - mayors, county officials, state reps, etc. - get directly involved with the schools. Perhaps have each of them guest teach a class once a week, or work directly with administrators, or something where they actually see the problems that confront educators on a day to day basis. It would really improve priority setting and resource allocation, in my opinion.
135. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 4:45:10 AM
Well, I'm going to school and I'm 57. This term I'll take Economic History. I have previously master's level in the History of Learning and a course in the Philosophy of Science. After this term I will be formally qualified for post-graduate studies. Whether I will be accepted depends on if I can come up with an interesting project. That's the reason I reviewed 35,000 book titles from 1800-50 as I mentioned in Books.
136. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 4:52:32 AM
what specifically will you be studying about economic history?
137. DaveM - 8/3/2000 4:53:16 AM
Ohh. You're 57. That explains why you're so crotchety, you old chainsaw.
Whether I will be accepted depends on if I can come up with an interesting project.
Does it have to be about economic history?
138. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:01:37 AM
No, it will have to be in the History of Learning because that's where I have the master's thesis. The Economic History is really just a least-resistance filler to get the credits.
139. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:02:14 AM
With probability 1 this year will be my last in graduate school, and in a couple months I will begin a job search in earnest. (Hard to believe I first posted in the fray shortly after first starting graduate school.)
At a baseball game this weekend, I was talking to someone about what my outlook was, my preference just now being for a university professorship first. I got to the "then there's always the industry route..." spiel, and he said, "hey, those who can, do." It seemed like such a strange sentiment, one I haven't heard in a while, and all I could think was, yeah, those who can do good research, get academic offers; those who can't, work for industry or government.
Really, I think "research" must sound like we're looking up encycolpedia entries.
140. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:05:25 AM
Slackjaw
It's just the basic course. For part of the course one can choose subject. I will do 19th century. There is "Feminist aspects" too. PC is not limited to the US.
141. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:06:01 AM
Dave,
I'm not talking about master's degrees, but the process of being in school forever.
Of course, Slack just showed up and he's been in school for ever and is (reasonably) normal. So it apparently can happen.
Teacher salaries will rise.
That seems obvious at first, and I agree that this will be part of it. But what Arky seems to be suggesting--and certainly seems to be likely--is that the poor schools simply won't be able to pay enough to attract any teachers, even bad ones, in an economy that gives them so many other options with more attractive pay. So the rich schools will get the best people who choose to teach--and these salaries will go up. But the poor and rural communities might not have any teachers at all--and if they can't afford to pay more, what happens?
The odd thing is, of course, that if this is true it means that a weak economy is good for public schools.
Home schooling will increase in popularity.
Probably, but you have to be qualified, don't you? And the only reason it would increase in popularity is because the poor schools wouldn't have any teachers--in other words, it's not going to affect demand for teachers, but is in response to a supply problem.
That is actually an interesting topic - is the rise of home schooling an effect or cause of the dearth of teachers (or is it unrelated)?
Unrelated up to now, I think.
Anyway, I wonder if the solution to teacher's salaries is to charge parents for them on top of what is already paid. Or maybe the feds step in and pony up funds for areas that are designated problem areas (don't they do that for doctors now?).
I think the problem you mentioned (poor administration) is as unresolvable as Joe's "let's make everyone a volunteer".
142. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:08:08 AM
Slack,
Is it that universities are the only ones that care about research, whereas the others care about results?
Or is that just a line from Ghostbusters?
Pelle,
Do you ever attach a dollar amount to your education--in terms of what it will do for your career, I mean? Or is this for fun and self-improvement?
143. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:16:17 AM
No, industry jobs I'm talking about will involve research that is interesting in universities too. It's often just not as interesting to the researcher, and s/he has often less control over topics. Design of return policies from retailers to manufacturers when the retailer knows more about the returned item, some types of auction design, stuff like that. And, people tend to prefer unviversity life, because it's great. So universities can have their pick, and guess who they want? Those people often wind up on contracts with the industry folks anyway.
144. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:20:45 AM
And to some extent, it's self feeding. The best people typically go to universities, and other people want to interact with them.
145. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:21:44 AM
Or is this for fun and self-improvement?
This also has a dollar amount attached to it, of course.
146. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:22:27 AM
Is it possible that the people who like school and the university life have a skewed notion of what "great" is? (g)
Are you decided, then, on going to a university?
147. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:23:38 AM
CalGal
It's not for my career. If I get a doctor's degree I will be close to retirement. You can say I attach a dollar value in the sense that I have to down in working time and thus in salary.
I've always been a "humanities man". I come from a lower middle-class background. The traditional choice for an upwards mobile guy was between engineer and teacher (or priest). OK, so teacher can means humanities, but I didn't want to become one so I went the engineereing route, which I have never regretted. But now that I can afford to, I'm glad that I can return to the human sciences. I also like the university milieu.
148. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:26:04 AM
Slack,
Yes, it does. In that case, though, it frames differently.
For example, if Pelle is going to school in order to make X more dollars every year, then he can easily measure the payoff.
If he's doing it for "fun", then the issue becomes "how much can I invest in this, given that there is no material payoff? How much is an intangible benefit worth?" (I don't mean intangible in any technical sense. At least, not on purpose.)
149. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:28:23 AM
I come from a lower middle-class background.
Hey, me too. But I was too dumb to know what this meant and had no idea what "upwardly mobile" entailed. So I degreed in English. Ended up in tech anyway, though.
150. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:31:34 AM
Is it possible that the people who like school and the university life have a skewed notion of what "great" is?
Oh, of course. We are all, I assume, pursuing our own conceptions of the good. On the other hand, flexible hours, (usually) attractive settings, 4 months a year free to work wherever you can get the funding to go, contemplation of interesting and important topics (just how informed do citizens have to be for democracy to work?), interaction with interesting young people -- what's not to like? I sometimes get the feeling that people think of academia as one trivial internecine squabble after another, and I have not seen too much of that, at least outside humanities lacking an agreed upon standard of good scholarship. Certainly, there's no shortage of debate -- what determines individual behavior when individual incentives and group interest collide, and how should that be studied? That'll spark controversy. But I don't know, does it sound trivial? It doesn't to me.
Are you decided, then, on going to a university?
Ha, well, is a univeristy decided on having me go to it? That's the better question. I do at the moment have a preference to stay in a university, but I still have to say, my decision will depend on the actual offers I get, not the ideal type of offer in each category.
151. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:33:37 AM
Slackjaw
How about government jobs? Here in Sweden the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank attract many bright, young economists.
152. DaveM - 8/3/2000 5:34:12 AM
Cal -
I think the problem you mentioned (poor administration) is as unresolvable as Joe's "let's make everyone a volunteer".
Transparency and oversight can help.
Or maybe the feds step in and pony up funds for areas that are designated problem areas (don't they do that for doctors now?).
I imagine that there are already programs that do this. The Kentucky Education Reform Act (KERA) substantially increased teacher salaries using lottery funds. Since 1989, the average teacher salary has increased from $27,909 to $38,642. The statistics are available here in .xls. That is not as large as I remember the stat being, but it is still sizable relative to other states. (See a comparison of changes in teacher salaries in the Southern Region on page 7 of this .pdf document)
153. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:37:25 AM
Yeah, and of course there are government jobs. I figure that if I am going to do that sort of research on a more limited agenda, I would like to be paid well for it. But it's not out of the question, there are good government jobs out there, given my interests.
The bad news is this process could take until next March. My dissertation is between 60 and 70% done but it's not exactly a cakewalk from here to the end. Far from it: decreasing returns may well make the 60-70% estimate deceiving.
154. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:38:58 AM
Do you mind telling us the no doubt mind-blowing title of the dissertation?
155. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:41:05 AM
...but the Fed is not a place I see myself having such a good time. I am sure it attracts many bright young economists, but not many applied micro or game theorists of any caliber.
156. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:42:25 AM
It's not that bad. Incentives, Asymmetric Information, and Legislative-Bureaucratic Interaction.
157. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:46:07 AM
I almost understand what it may possibly mean.
158. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:50:45 AM
It's quite straightforward really. Legislators connect in the policy process with agents that are differently informed, and in many ways, more informed than they are. Yet since these agents have goals and agendas of their own, legislators cannot always rely on them to use their information in ways legislators would like. Therefore parts of or facts about the policy process that seem strange may be understandable when one accounts for the reckoning of these information asymmetries in the design of the policy process.
159. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:55:50 AM
I'm moving to the slow thread before CalGal goes apoplectic.
160. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:10:32 AM
arky, PD
thanks, I was curious about that.
Joe, Cal
Federal law prohibits the public workplace from using volunteers to replace paid workers. Not substitute, not supplement, replace. So IOW, if my budget includes a secretarial position and I choose not to fill that position and instead have the duties performed by a volunteer, I'm breaking that law. I don't have the specific cite....but when I was in human services (those agencies rely heavily on volunteers due to lousy funding), H.R. was quite clear and quite adamant on this point.
DaveM
137. DaveM - 8/3/00 4:53:16 AM
Ohh. You're 57. That explains why you're so crotchety, you old chainsaw.
It's all about perspective...my first thought was 'oh, that's why he's so interesting.' Ah, youth.
161. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:13:03 AM
Pelle,
I wouldn't have gone apopleptic--it is still a career discussion (assuming I understood it).
Diva,
That makes sense. I was surprised that Joe didn't accept my objection to the use of volunteers as valid. Since I'm assuming that Joe's school didn't break the law, where is the dividing line?
162. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:16:07 AM
Replacement of paid workers. So, say for example you have budgeted for two secretarial positions, and you've filled those positions. Still, there's more work to go around than those people can possibly handle. That's where the parent volunteers step in.
163. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:17:01 AM
Replacement of paid workers. So, say for example you have budgeted for two secretarial positions, and you've filled those positions. Still, there's more work to go around than those people can possibly handle. That's where the parent volunteers step in. Now that's okay, that's acceptable. But if one of the secretaries quits, you use a parent volunteer to accomplish those duties, and you never advertise to fill the position, that's a big no-no.
164. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:17:21 AM
Frigging laptop.
165. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:22:22 AM
So suppose you have one busdriver working part-time, and you have budget for a full-time driver. If you used parents to fill the gap instead of giving him the extra hours, this is a nono?
166. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:27:35 AM
One other question--suppose a school district evaluates their budget and decides to use all the increase towards teacher salaries and rely on parental volunteerism to account for the significantly expanded needs in other areas. Is there any point at which that becomes abusive under this law? (e.g. one paid bus driver, fifteen volunteers)
Or in your line of work--suppose you have funding that could be used to increase your staff by one person in an area that you already use a volunteer full-time. But instead, you choose to use it to increase the salaries of employees.
167. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:29:50 AM
On a different subject--how many people know the dollar amount of the benefits they receive?
168. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:30:31 AM
Hm. Not quite sure. It would depend upon whether that driver had been hired as PT or FT. In gubment (assume schools are included), your budget each fiscal year includes a set number of FT and PT positions.
So, if that driver had been hired as FT, wanted FT, but you were only giving him PT hours so you could use that parent driver and save $$, that would be wrong and H.R. could and would come down on you like white on rice.
But, if that driver were PT, had been offered extra hours and declined them, and you were using a volunteer to drive while still advertising the FT position, that would be okay.
You just can't entirely replace a paid position with a volunteer.
169. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:38:55 AM
WRT to your first question....not quite sure. For one thing, such a proposal wouldn't fly politically. It'd never make its way past the budget officers because formulating your budget based on such an intangible as volunteer hours is irresponsible. And the transportation people probably wouldn't propose it anyway. They have enough trouble hiring, training, and retaining drivers who start at $12.00/hour and make up to about $20.00/hour (and worth every penny. Ever been on a school bus?)
Second question is a definite no for a couple of reasons. First of all, you receive your funding after you tell the budget office how you will use it. (If your request makes its way past the budget office, it has to be approved by the pols.) Now, if you want to eliminate a position, you have to explain why it's being eliminated and how you propose to accomplish the tasks assigned to the position. (Red flag to HR - using a volunteer to replace a salaried worker.) If you decide to take those funds and reallocate, it cannot be in the area of employee salaries for the simple reason that each position is paid according to a published scale, and increases are given through annual merit evaluations.
170. DaveM - 8/3/2000 10:40:25 AM
Gramma Diva,
Just because you and Pelle can relate a little doesn't mean he isn't crotchety. He traumatized poor Jenerator the other day.
The only "cost" I can see to using volunteers is if it prevents the schools from having a legitimate claim to tax money. For instance, if a local tax levy is constantly voted down because a school performs well statistically, but that statistical performance is due to volunteers who can then control the ideology of the educational process.
Actually, lost tax revenue, etc. from having the volunteers employed in an alternative position could clearly be better; most volunteers, I suspect, are not likely to get a job when the school says
"no more volunteers," though.
This whole anti-volunteerism schtick seems a little Randian.
171. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:42:36 AM
Diva,
It'd never make its way past the budget officers because formulating your budget based on such an intangible as volunteer hours is irresponsible.
Well, yes. Hence my mention to Joe that any such plan was a lousy business model.
So I wonder how Joe's school is getting away with it? Perhaps they keep the balance reasonable enough that it stays under radar.
172. DaveM - 8/3/2000 10:45:30 AM
Another quick comment on the volunteerism thing - it is probably the norm, not the exception, in private schools. Every Catholic school I know of has a susbtantial volunteer force, especially in lunch crews, custodial positions, and clerical positions.
173. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:47:24 AM
Dave
Quit bein so impudent or I'll whack you with my cane. Never mess with an ole preggo broad.
Oh and before I forget, did someone upthread ask about the $$ value of volunteers? For professionals, $20/hour. All others, $12/hour.
And theoretically, I see where you're coming from, but for all practical purposes it simply doesn't work that way. Volunteers, however significant their contributions, perform the support work, not the meat and potatoes stuff. Moreover, the schools wouldn't be denied funding due to the sheer number of volunteer hours. You don't formulate a public budget based on such an intangible.
174. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:48:57 AM
Dave
Absolutely. Gracie's school has a positive army of parent volunteers. My hat is off to them. Those women are there day in and day out, it's a beautiful thing. The school wouldn't run without them.
175. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:50:10 AM
Cal
I'm not sure that what Joe's school is doing is wrong. You'd have to examine their budget at the line item level to make that conclusion.
176. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:51:52 AM
Cal
your #167. I do. But I ain't sayin. I'd be giving away the dirty little secret of public servants everywhere. (We actually ARE in it for the $$$.)
177. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:55:32 AM
Diva,
Okay, but you can speak of it as a percentage of your salary (which is also an unknown and stays so), can't you?
178. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:55:35 AM
dammit, here I am on annual leave and talkin shop. I'm going over to the Cafe.
179. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:56:00 AM
yeah, I can. I was just funnin. Lemme do the math.
180. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:57:03 AM
If my recollection of the dollar amounts are correct, somewhere between 18 and 22 percent.
181. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 11:36:43 AM
Diva -- Message # 160
Thanks for the nice compliment.
DaveM -- Message # 170
I didn't "traumatize poor Jenerator". First there is nothing poor about her in whatever sense you want to use the word. Second, you cannot even begin to guess the nature of our relationship.
But I admire your stamina. You made your last post at about 11.30 am my time which must be bloody late (or early) wherever you are in the US. And here you are five hours later heaping insults on your elders. Not bad, Dave, not bad at all.
182. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 11:52:28 AM
Dave
I just checked Politics. Have you been to bed at all?
183. theDiva - 8/3/2000 12:00:00 PM
Pelle
You're welcome. I think you're just swell.
And re: DaveM....the child never sleeps.
184. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 12:05:35 PM
And you are swelling. A fine match.
185. DaveM - 8/3/2000 12:42:46 PM
Pelle -
What do you mean by swelling? (ego getting larger?) I post EST. I was actually admiring your pluck the other day, but didn't feel like chiming in on the "spam" debate.
Diva -
I was just kidding about the gramma comment. I don't think of my parents as old, and you still have a couple of years 'til you're their age.
I'm actually an extremely good sleeper - I just basically operate on a 30 hour day (up for twenty, sleep for ten). It wreaks havoc with my life, but I have been this way since high school (read: since puberty). That is actually the thing I despise most about a 9-5 job; I simply lack the discipline to sleep at an appropriate time.
186. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 12:51:56 PM
Dave
Diva is going to have a child in about seven months.
187. DaveM - 8/3/2000 12:58:44 PM
Pelle -
I know. I also know that she has a birthday coming up.
188. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 1:14:19 PM
So why do you ask about swelling? But we have to stop this or Calgal will hammer us into the ground.
189. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 1:21:21 PM
Cal..."I had a friend like you once. She went to school for
about 14 years and got 5 degrees. When she finally
finished school she got divorced and put on 30 pounds." So you are suggesting that the school caused the personal problems? That w/o the education her life would be improved? That education is a waste of time? I seems to me that you can mange better debate than to rely on causation through correlation(NOT possible) or sweeping generalizations. In any case, maybe she was skinny and had a lousy husband.
190. DaveM - 8/3/2000 1:39:26 PM
PP -
I'm pretty sure that Cal was just making a gratuitous jibe. Last I checked, those are allowed to commit fallacies. Cal, though, should not seek employment as a roaster.
Pelle -
For some reason (youthful egocentrism, I suppose), I completely skipped over Diva's post. I thought the swelling comment was directed toward me.
Diva -
Is having a child going to affect your employment? How much maternity leave do you get?
191. CalGal - 8/3/2000 1:48:46 PM
Actually,it wasn't even a gratuitous jibe--just random association in jest. PP, your display of earnest righteousness run amok will be graciously overlooked.
Back to regularly scheduled topics.
Benefit dollar value, anyone?
192. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 1:55:49 PM
It did not look like jest to me considering some previous posts...but if so, why not stay on topic. It was an interesting discussion. Plus, we can disagree in this thread w/o ad hominum attack, no? Why is it righteous to state what I think? And I do not believe that your jibe did not reflect your thinking. I found that of interest, and responded. Period.
193. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:02:55 PM
PP,
It was on topic. Going to school for a long time means (usually) not working--or working at something that is a stopgap until one's "real" career (which starts when one finishes that endless education) begins. As such, I was saying, "Yeesh. I don't see how anyone could do that." Idle comment, nothing more.
As for it being a real association that I made--no. In my friend's case, I do think that she used school to delay making life decisions. But that's not the first or even tenth thing I think of when someone goes to school for a long time. I was goofing with Dave.
As for it being an attack, I don't see it as any more of an attack than saying "Gawd, I don't see how anyone can handle the insecurity of self-employment".
Finally, I realize you think things are dull around here, but you're not going to start a pointless fight in this thread, thankyouverymuch.
194. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:04:43 PM
Oh, and no, it is not righteous to state what you think. It is earnest righteousness when your alarm is set to such sensitivity that you miss a goofy remark and take it seriously. But--newsflash--I was not being terribly serious about the earnest righteousness remark, either.
195. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:06:54 PM
Chrissake Cal...I was just posting here. AND...so it was or wasn't in jest? I still think it reflects your thinking, and that's why I posted it.
196. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:08:57 PM
Do I find the idea of going to school for a zillion years to be ick? Absolutely. Do I think that it reflects a character flaw that will result in the student being divorced and fat? Do I really have to answer that? Of course not.
197. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:10:02 PM
And you are welcome to post about anything job related--including your feeling that there is a prejudice against long-time students.
I was merely surprised that you would think I was serious.
198. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:12:15 PM
But what was interesting is whether the "schooling" pays off...as in one has been in school for one"s entire "adult life" when they are "24". Is it worth it either personally or economically?
199. marshame - 8/3/2000 2:25:10 PM
Speaking of benefits dollar value, do you consider FICA a benefit? Our board does, but the employees certainly don't, and that's 6.2% of their paycheck, involuntarily deducted, not counting the 1.45% FICA med.
Re bennies: My employer provides 21.65% retirement (including their FICA share) plus $2,784 medical ins. plus $60 life insurance. This does not include any kind of calculation for paid leave, workers' comp or disability coverage.
Is that what you're talking about, CalGal?
200. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 2:25:58 PM
For the vast majority of graduate programs, even the vast majority of MBA programs, it had better be worth it personally, because it will either (a) cost more than it adds to earnings, or (b) represent a cut in lifetime income (i.e., even if you don't pay a dime due to scholarships and fellowships).
There was an article in BusinessWeek or something several years ago, about the cost-benefit calculus of an MBA. Outside the upper eschelon, not many schools actually added more to earnings than their cost in tuition and lost earnings while in school.
201. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:28:12 PM
Marsha,
Yes, that's it. Is it 60/year in life insurance, or 60/month?
How about education benefits? Disability?
202. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:32:16 PM
Slck...there are some jobs ya just can't get w/o the degree...how can that not be a benefit if that's what you want to do?
203. marshame - 8/3/2000 2:32:55 PM
Life Ins is $60 a year which basically provides 100% salary coverage. Employees may supplement.
Education benefits consist of tuition reimbursement up to $250 per quarter/semester for classes that contribute to your value as an employee.
Disability = 70% of take home pay, which is pretty good when you consider no 7.45% FICA, no 7% employee portion of retirement, and no 20% (est) federal income tax.
204. marshame - 8/3/2000 2:34:16 PM
That should be 70% of gross, not 70% of take-home.
205. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:38:41 PM
Marsha,
ACtually, FICA is a benefit. Not the 7.5% that the employee pays, but the other 7.5% that the employer pays. Not only do they pay it for you, but you aren't taxed on it. Just ask anyone who is self-employed.
PP,
If someone is working on their third degree by the age of 24, I consider that to mean they are spending all their time in school. This is not in and of itself either good or bad. But it's fairly accurate as a statement.
206. marshame - 8/3/2000 2:43:38 PM
Re FICA
"but you aren't taxed on it [the employer's portion]."
You are taxed on it when you collect it (if you collect it.
If we could opt out of Social Security, I am quite sure our employees would vote to do so in a New York minute.
I sympathize with self-employed folks who have to pay both sides of the equation.
Most of our benefits are realized post-retirement, and that is why they can get away with paying us less in salaries than the going market rate. For example, an employee who puts in 30 years gets 100% of his salary at retirement, and can purchase health and dental insurance for $110 a month.
It's just that damn 30 years that's the problem.
207. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 2:45:00 PM
I agree PP, but even though that's job related I would classify it as a personal benefit.
208. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:45:14 PM
The purpose of social security is to redistribute wealth.
209. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:46:21 PM
Slack...me too.
210. arkymalarky - 8/3/2000 3:15:55 PM
Interesting discussion. Wish I could've been here for it. To answer Cal's question way upthread very quickly, yes, I decided to take the job. My principal and supt were very supportive and made it clear that if I wasn't happy I had a home back there. The AP Eng is out because of time and logistics, even if my school had the money to contract me to do it, which they don't. I've got the easiest schedule I've ever had, so I'm just going to enjoy it. The new school staff and admin has been very nice and I think I'll like it fine, but if I don't I'll just go somewhere else.
I would love to put my two cents worth in on the earlier discussion, but to retrace it would be more than I have time or energy for. I do think that states and schools are responding to the changing job market, though slowly, and they really don't have any choice. The first item on the legislative agenda in AR this session is raising teacher pay. The thing here is, AR is so rural that they can't simply shut down every small school, and even if they did, they'd still have problems with neighboring states siphoning off their teachers.
My school (I guess I should say my former school) has a great supt, and through his efforts we are in better financial shape than any school in this area, yet our performance and facilities are comparable to any of the neighboring schools--generally better. But if there are no teachers available to fill vacancies, the situation for them can change very quickly, and a lot of our success has come from the effective administration of the school. It will come to the point that schools will have to adjust to supply and demand and pay math and other hard-to-find teachers more than ones like me. But the shortage is spreading across the curriculum, so some sort of across-the-board raise is going to be necessary, and the figure floating around at this point is $3000. We'll see.
211. arkymalarky - 8/3/2000 3:16:29 PM
PS--I haven't told my kids yet. That's going to be hard. I'm having a pool party for my annual staff next Sat, but they'll all know by then.
212. marshame - 8/3/2000 3:27:53 PM
Arky
Change is good, and life goes on. Focus on the positives and you won't have "buyer's remorse."
213. arkymalarky - 8/3/2000 3:42:11 PM
Thanks, Marsha. That's what people here have been telling me, and they're right. I'm leaving dear friends and a wonderful place, so I'm not fighting being sad about it, but I've thought and talked about it a lot the last few days, and I'm not going to second-guess my decision, either.
214. theDiva - 8/3/2000 3:51:38 PM
wow, Arky, that was really brave. My hat is off to you.
DaveM, I knew you were goofing, it's ok. WRT maternity leave, the County doesn't give it per se, but each employee accumulates a certain amount of sick and annual leave per pay period. The longer you are with the County, the more annual leave per period you may accrue. So I can take my annual and sick leave, and if the doc says I need to stay out longer, I can draw on the sick leave bank for as long as I need to. Then for unpaid leave, there's the FMLA.
215. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:53:31 PM
Diva, don't you get six weeks of disability, too?
216. theDiva - 8/3/2000 3:54:23 PM
In NY I did. I'm not sure how it works in Va.
217. CalGal - 8/3/2000 7:42:32 PM
Arky,
Good for you. I think you'll enjoy the free time. Besides, it sounds like there is almost no risk involved. If you don't like it, you can return--or find another job elsewhere.
Okay, Arky's problem is solved--thread's over! (g)
Joe, any word on your interview?
218. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:14:48 PM
Pursuant to the discussion last night, the Mrs. just got wind of a retroactive salary increase thanks to the "beginning teacher salary initiative" in California. It is now relatively more attractive to become a teacher than a starting accountant, but I assume the lifetime salary schedule is still relatively flatter.
219. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:16:22 PM
Well, that's good news! Is she taking you out to celebrate?
220. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:26:30 PM
Nah, I told her to get right back in that kitchen and whip me up somethin' real special-like.
Alternate answer: no, we're going out tomorrow instead.
221. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:33:17 PM
I imagine she just reminded you who the primary breadwinner was and handed you the apron?
Retroactive is very cool. Hope it's a nice chunk.
222. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:35:54 PM
haha, I think she's good enough at backward induction by now not to play that card. She's looking at 509 years of having it the other way around.
But yeah, she handed me the apron anyway.
223. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:37:05 PM
509 years
Have I mentioned that we are of Yoda's race?
Or make it 50.
224. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:44:48 PM
Strictly speaking, if she's good at backward induction and I'm selfish, she should play that card, because our game will most likely end in the reverse situation, and I can't commit not to play that card when my node of the game tree comes up. I guess she thinks I'm not selfish.
225. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:50:57 PM
Um. Are you saying she should take her shots now because when you make more money, you'll bitch if she asks you to take out the garbage?
And if that is what you were saying, why didn't you just say so?
226. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:52:07 PM
(he opens his eyes wide)
But I thought I just did say so.
227. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:54:07 PM
My statement was much more general.
228. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:56:29 PM
Ah, so you abstracted.
BTW, probabilities still hurt my head.
229. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:59:16 PM
why, specifically?
230. joezan - 8/4/2000 12:33:45 AM
Cal - Message # 133:
...But I got the impression you were offering it as a solution, and for the reasons I've mentioned, I don't think it will fly...
...I'm very skeptical of any "solution" that requires the customers to voluntarily pay to increase the salaries of the workers providing a
service.
Cal, I think what you're missing here is that to these people, volunteerism in the schools is most definitely not a "solution" to some "problem". It has simply always been. I have to admit that this concept was totally foreign to me - I'm from NY, remember. But, having seen it in action I cannot believe that it is not embraced everywhere. God knows - and there is ample evidence to prove - that throwing money at the problems plaguing the schools hasn't worked, even when that money translates into high salaries for the teachers. See, one way or another, you do pay. But it is a proven fact - hell, it's a given - that