This thread really can go anywhere that there's interest. My original intent in suggesting it was due to my enjoyment of the Business/Work Life thread at Tabletalk, and a desire to see if we can put our own spin on it here.
2. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:09:50 PM
I originally had a number of posts to start off the thread and I will put them in at a later date, but Arky just posted something in the Cafe that I thought would be a fun first case. Hopefully, she won't mind my posting it here:
I hesitated to post this, but what the hey--y'all might give me some perspective here.
I love my job, and though my schedule is going to be pretty bad next year, they're in a bind and this school has been very good to me for twelve years now. Nothing lasts forever, though, and looking down the road, though I think the scheduling problem is a one-year bind, I know my administrators are due to retire well before I am and things may not always be this good there. I've never entertained thoughts of leaving this school, though I've been asked to work in two other schools (both with better pay and one much closer) since I've been there.
Well, last night Bob's principal called and wanted me to come talk to him about working there. I go in at 9:00 tomorrow. The idea of working with Bob and commuting together is very appealing--though the money's about the same, the savings in gas and car maintenance would help a lot--but I love where I am and the people I work with and the kids I teach, and next year's seniors are my kids. If I left I doubt AP English would continue there and there's no indication that I would teach it at Bob's school.
I hate stuff like this--I wouldn't have looked for it, but now that the option's there I've got to check it out.
3. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:11:00 PM
Feedback thus far (copied from the Cafe):
Wombat: "No harm in talking."
Diva: "It doesn't sound as if you want to leave."
4. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:14:30 PM
Arky's response to Diva from the Cafe:
"I cry to even think about it. But I also know that my principal may only be there one more year, and when my superintendent leaves, probably in the next two or three, things could be very different anyway. I'm bad about jumping the gun and overreacting, though. I'm just going to talk it over with both administrations and weigh things after I have all the info."
5. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:15:21 PM
Arky,
Is it possible to contract back to the first school to teach AP English?
6. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 5:29:42 PM
I don't think so, because of the logistics and the load I would have. I'll ask--in fact, I'm trying to come up with a good list of questions for both places. It's been so long since I've even considered a job I'm afraid I'll forget to ask about something important.
I'll post tomorrow on how things go in the morning interview, then I'll probably talk to my school on Monday.
7. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 5:35:31 PM
What I wonder about is what other people value in their jobs? In weighing different options, prioritizing can be more difficult than it would seem, at least for me.
8. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:51:04 PM
Arky,
The principal has approached you, and you like it where you are. This puts you in a position of a reasonable amount of power, so explore the depth of it.
So do what you can to make the choice easier. How do you make it easier? Ideally, by coming up with a compelling reason to either stay or leave. How do you do that? The first things I can think of in your case would be money and flexibility.
Start with money. Ask for a lot--give yourself 20-30% raise and see what happens. Does he blink? Was he just expecting to pick you up cheap? Is he considering it? Is he willing to pay for you but the realities of the situation (limits on salaries, whatever) make it impossible? It doesn't matter what his reaction is, the very request will give you some useful information.
Move on to flexibility--I'm not sure what you can ask for there, but I'm sure you have ideas. Same principle--it's not whether he says yes or no, but rather how he reacts to the request that matters. For example, suppose you mention that the first school may have to do away with AP English if you leave--and that they may offer you the chance to contract back to teach it. Would you be able to commit to a two-hour block of time at the end of the day so you could get to the other school regularly? Or whatever it would take. I realize you don't think it's possible at this point, but it never hurts to open the door first.
I'm sure there are other areas for exploration; I just thought of money and flexibility because I don't know a lot about teaching. Will you be considered a senior teacher on the staff? Is there a pecking order that you'll have to negotiate with "newbie" status?
9. CalGal - 7/27/2000 5:51:58 PM
My thoughts in offering this advice is to see if you can uncover a "gotcha". If he says "Sure!" to a 30% raise, it makes your choice a lot easier. If, on the other hand, he says something revealing about his hope that he could get you cheap, it doesn't necessarily mean that you'll turn it down, but it allows you to go in with your eyes open. Ditto with the flexibility--what if he offers you the ability to set your own schedule and get first refusal on certain classes?
In a situation like this, where you are conflicted, I think it is extremely important to ask for a lot. You are a senior teacher, you have a lot of value. If he's willing to pay for that, great. If he's not, it doesn't mean you turn him down, but it will give you a reason to say, "Hmm. It's an interesting offer but I'll have to think about it"--and then maybe keep him waiting for a year to see how things play out at your school.
10. christino - 7/27/2000 6:02:27 PM
Arky,
Go and hear what he has to say, but it sounds like things are stable where you're at for at least one more year and staying would give you the opportunity to see "your" kids out. It would also give the school time to find another teacher for the AP English program.
A guarantee that you and Bob could teach in the same school or a significant increase in pay or benefits would certainly be mitigatig factors but don't jump up and leave on just the possibility that your good experience won't continue. Is there a definite plan for retirement with a specific date on the part of your principal and superintendant? If not is it something you could ask either of them about? Is it a legitimate concern that the opportunity to move won't be available to you in future?
11. theDiva - 7/27/2000 7:20:44 PM
Arky
If you're crying just thinking about it, that ought to tell you something. If I were you, I'd finish out senior year with my kids, and if I still wanted to move thereafter, I'd look into it. You're happy and comfortable where you are, right? That's a pretty nice perk.
12. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 8:40:27 PM
Wow, thanks for all the wonderful input. It gives me a lot to think about going into it.
On salaries and contracts, school teaching is kind of weird, because contracts at the schools often come up for signing in the spring and jobs often come open in the summer. Salaries are a matter of public record, and with communities and school boards making determinations there's not as much leeway for superintendents to make offers unless they're in the form of extras--afternoon work, more contract days to perform extra responsibilities, etc. My school has always been very generous in that regard, but as time became more valuable I let a lot of those extras go. I do the annual here, but I probably would at Bob's school also, for a bigger stipend, since it's a bigger annual, but also for more headaches.
13. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 8:57:11 PM
Considering this as sort of a case study, here's what I know so far about both jobs:
First mine...
has an excellent but older administration (very traditional, which can be a minus sometimes) which has managed to do a lot with a little and has respect for teachers as professionals who know how to do their jobs. There's not a lot of hoop-jumping and paperwork or breathing down our necks. We spend most of our time teaching or preparing to teach. It's not administratively top-heavy like a lot of schools.
It's very casual and relaxed. Faculty gets along great with eachother, the administration, and the kids for the most part. In general, it's a nice community, with a supportive schoolboard and parents. I don't warm up to people very quickly (my best friend at work told me that for the first two years I was there she thought I didn't like her) and am very uncomfortable in any setting which feels too formal or structured.
There's not much money there and the schedule has grown more strained the past year or two, which hasn't really affected me until this coming year's schedule. Our superintendent has got some things in progress which should make this a temporary situation. Class sizes are small (I never have over 75 students, usually less--more like 60 or 65) but course preparations are heavy. I teach five different classes plus do the annual and newspaper. I enjoy my courses, though, and it stays interesting.
Classes coming up in the next couple of years are academically weak and I might not make the 10th grade AP next year, and possibly not the following. This happens sometimes in a small school where grade numbers rarely get over 30 or 35.
The drive isn't too bad (22 miles and very pretty and relaxing), but the road is very bad--narrow and curvy with steep shoulders, very rural, with lots of log and rock trucks.
14. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:12:12 PM
Bob's...
has a very good administration,also, but more administrators (it's a considerably bigger school, though still small). They are more fond of the latest innovations and paperwork and do seem to take more of their teachers' time on things that I don't find very productive.
Their facilities are ok, not better or worse than ours--their building and classrooms are less pleasant, but I would have 11 computers in my room. Currently I have two, but they're separated from the class in a back work area with two huge plate glass windows, something I requested and the school provided without hesitation.
The money would be about the same, most likely. I could make a request for a higher sum, but it will be tricky, since they have printed salary scales for 185 day teachers, and they'd have to add duties to my contract to add to my money.
The drive would be almost all interstate, with Bob. My day would be much longer, but he'd be two doors down. We could commute to events together and I could have more fun attending ballgames and other school activities. Over the long term things may change, but that would be somewhat offset by working with Bob. We wouldn't see that much of eachother during the day, it's just the ease and mutual support of going to and being in one place.
The kicker with me is going to be the schedule. They're on block scheduling, which means I'd have 3 classes each semester and a long preparation period rather than six year-long classes and a 50 minute prep. They have more duty than where I work, but with a longer prep and fewer classes (though lesson plans would cover material half again as long each day) I would still have more time in a day. I don't know what I'll be teaching, though. Speech was mentioned, and I would have to take a couple of classes to be certified, which they said they'd help pay for.
I'll know a lot more after Friday and Monday.
15. christino - 7/27/2000 9:17:34 PM
Arky,
It sounds to me like you've got a pretty good situation. Particularly regarding administration and the attitude toward teachers. From what I hear that's quite rare.
I know that for me making money is a great thing but if I'm miserable while I do it I can't stick around. I'm happier making less money if my work environment is good. A lot of times we don't see the value of things that don't have a price tag on them. I have to ask myself how much more money would I want an hour to put up with bullshit.
16. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:17:36 PM
PS--sorry to take up so much space with this. It's not that I'm trying to get help with a decision or overwhelm the thread with my own situation (though I love the advice from people who have a lot of experience with this sort of thing), but I think it's fascinating to look at what deciding on a job or career change involves, having not been involved in the process for so many years.
17. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:23:36 PM
Chris,
I must confess I have a bias, and I'm going to try to keep an open mind and look to the next three or four years when the administration will probably be completely different where I am now. I do dread my schedule next year, and the thought of getting out from under it has some appeal. But my school's been good to me, and I would feel like a rat to abandon them in a pinch.
I have always valued time more than money, and I know in some fields (like Cal's, apparently (g)) you can have both. To live where I want to live, though, options are limited, and above everything I value being happy with my job and environment.
18. christino - 7/27/2000 9:25:24 PM
Here's something that's good about not working for the same company as your spouse: You can offer an outside/more objective eye when there are job stressors---which are inevitable in any job.
Additionally if you both work in the same place you tend to consume your away hours talking about work as well since you know all the same people etc.
19. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:29:16 PM
That's true, and it happens to some degree anyway for two reasons-- one is that this area doesn't have a lot of people, so more of us know eachother over longer distances, and being in the same career causes us to talk shop a lot.
20. CalGal - 7/27/2000 9:33:55 PM
Arky, this is a great use of the thread and one of the things I thought it could be used for.
Your description makes it sound as if the schedule and increased time is the major attraction of the new job, with its administrative rules and your general wariness of new situations operating as the major negatives.
It doesn't sound like there is anything terrible about your current job except the heavy schedule, which I know you've mentioned throughout the year--as well as your fear that the things you love about the job are fairly ephemeral and could change with a new administration or an influx of rotten kids. Not unreasonable fears, I might add.
Is that reasonably accurate, or did I miss something?
21. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:42:31 PM
Message # 20
Nope, you've summed it up very well, except for the kids--the ones coming up in the next couple of years are good but very average, and hardly any, if any at all, will likely take advanced English. This could hurt my schedule or make it easier, depending on what they do with the empty slot.
I'm anxious to see what Bob's school says tomorrow.
22. christino - 7/27/2000 9:44:48 PM
Best of luck to you! Keep us posted for sure!
23. arkymalarky - 7/27/2000 9:49:29 PM
Thanks Chris! Y'all have a good evening and I'll fill y'all in tomorrow.
24. CalGal - 7/27/2000 10:03:34 PM
Arky, the other thing to consider is that this is a terrific time in your life to go on an interview. You don't have to get a new job; you like your existing one fine. At the same time you realize that things could change.
This is a terrific position to be in, actually. If nothing else, focus hard on the process of interviewing--on using the time to gather the information you need about the school, the administrator's mindset--and on seeing how you feel about interviewing. Do you think you sell yourself well, do you feel comfortable making your requirements known, do you present yourself with the proper combination of confidence and competence?
So think about using this whole episode as an invaluable learning process--it's not really about whether or not you take the job or not, but how it prepares you for other opportunities.
(it just occurs to me that I'm telling you to be P, instead of J.)
25. Jonesatlaw - 7/27/2000 11:13:44 PM
Arky- Does Bob do a lot of extra-curicular stuff at his school? Does he like it, and do you? The idea of being able to go to one Football game etc. together sounds great. Do you like the community that he teaches in, and do you want to involved in it in more depth?
It's great to go to ball games, plays etc. and see all the kids parents, relatives and whatnot and know your kids in a different setting. But if you're not entirely comfortable with the community, it can be a burden.
26. Jonesatlaw - 7/27/2000 11:22:34 PM
Arky- I realize suddenly that I glossed over the classroom side of things. It sounds like there are going to be advantages to each side in the classroom, but that the ones at your current position are not certain in the long term. The question then is not whether there will be a change in the classroom issues, it is where and when there will be changes.
How do you like the faculty at Bob's school? How do they relate to each other and the administration? Would you feel comfortable with the dominant style at his school?
My parents were both teachers in the same district, but different schools when I was very small. When I was a bit older my father became an administrator, starting out with discipline and athletic director duties. I have very fond memories of going to high school plays, football games, etc. with my parents. It was nice that they were always on the same academic calandar.
27. joezan - 7/27/2000 11:35:36 PM
Today I had my first interview in 6 years (except for the strictly canned, pro forma interview I had to have for the promotion to my current position.) A little scary, as this job's in another, much more urban county. And I've been with my present employer for 12 years.
Anyway, I left feeling really good.
I wasn't exactly sure what the position I was interviewing for entailed, but it pays about 20% more than what I make now for what would be essentially a lateral move at my current job.
Well, once the job was explained to me - a lot different from my job, but nothing I can't handle - I politely told the interviewers (both of whom I know pretty well) that I'd need more money to put up with the crazy hours the job demands.
I knew what their answer would be - it's a county job. So, I thanked them both for their time and prepared to leave.
But then one of them asked me why I hadn't applied for the "other" job. Well - I didn't know about any other job, I replied.
As it turns out, the "other" job happens to be one that fits my particular area of expertise to a tee, and is a position I have been trying to convince my employer to create for me for the past 3 years, to no avail.
28. joezan - 7/27/2000 11:36:37 PM
[continued...]
Did I want to interview for the other job, they asked?
How much does it pay?, I wanted to know.
40% more than I make now? Damn right I'll interview for it! (In my proposals to my current employer to create the position, my salary wouldn't change from what it is!)
Anyway, on with the interview.
The first question was:
Tell us about Joe's theory of managing people.
In a heartbeat, I reply:
I believe that you don't manage people - you manage problems. People you lead and direct.
Big, wide smiles from both men.
Now, this is not a new management concept. In fact, I'd say that it's pretty much always been my style.
However, those were not my words.
Those words I got, about two weeks ago, from...
...a sign on the wall of a garage where I was having new tires put on my van!
29. Jonesatlaw - 7/27/2000 11:39:27 PM
Joezan- Fortune smiles on you! How nice, especially in government work, where they sometimes write job descriptions to determine who gets the job, not what they actually do or what they really need.
35. joezan - 7/27/2000 11:43:49 PM
...and now, I can't get rid of it (the bold).
And thanks, Jones!
36. CalGal - 7/27/2000 11:49:17 PM
Joe--that's a great story. Do jobs in your line of work have a fixed salary? What is behind your decision to interview for a new position--bored at the old job, looking for more money, career enhancement?
37. joezan - 7/28/2000 12:09:35 AM
Cal:
Generally they do, in that the disparities usually reflect the costs of living in different counties. So, for instance, I could easily make 25% more doing the same thing in Wayne County (Detroit area) - but the cost of living is probably 50% higher there.
And who'd wanna live there, anyway? (except Wonkers, of course.)
What happens is, every few years the "parent entity" (in this case the county) will conduct a salary study. These studies are usually instigated by the union employees, but once the county agrees to one (with much arm twisting) they usually encompass all positions -which is good for me, since I am not in a union.
Then the haggling begins over what counties to compare with - the county of course choosing counties which will tend to skew lower, and the unions just the opposite. The way the studt works is, all the workers in a particular position get together and write up a job description, listing all the requirements, duties, etc. This is mostly because a position which appears to be the same as one in another county, may be a lot different.
They present the finished description to their department head, who comments as to the veracity of the thing (as you can imagine, by the time the secretaries are done with it they're running the whole operation, for instance)
[continued...]
38. joezan - 7/28/2000 12:23:45 AM
[..continued]
After all positions have submitted their descriptions, the whole lot is presented to an obstensibly neutral actuarial firm, which does the math and returns the verdict a couple of months later. There are nearly always an equal number of winners and losers.
I made out fairly well with the last one - about 3 years ago - probably because I'm the sole person in my position in the county, and I took on a whole load of new responsibilities from my over-worked boss, in anticipation of the study.
Coincidentally we have just finished a salary study, and the county I interviewed with today happened to be one which the union fought to have included, but which was rejected out-of-hand because it doesn't fit a lot of the demographic criteria they use.
My boss, though, did recommend that my position be bumped up two salary grades, which will be a tidy sum, but not even close to what I will make if I'm hired by the other county.
39. CalGal - 7/28/2000 12:36:06 AM
Joe,
The entire process you describe gives me the hives--as does Arky's "all teacher's salaries are published." I guess that must be the norm when working with governments and schools.
So is your reason for switching jobs a matter of money? (an excellent reason, I might add). Can you work in the private sector, or are all the interesting jobs in your line of work found in social services?
40. joezan - 7/28/2000 12:46:49 AM
Cal:
What is behind your decision to interview for a new position--bored at the old job, looking for more money, career enhancement?
I mentioned here some months ago that I was spearheading my facility's effort to receive accreditation from the most recognized, respected accrediting agency in the field - which would make ours the only facility so accredited in the entire state. Well, our audit was delayed some months because of an administrative change. But I took advantage of the extra time to nail down a few loose boards, so-to-speak. And now there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will come out of the audit, scheduled for the second week in September, in at least 97% compliance, which is excellent.
After that, I will resume my regular duties full time. It's a very rewarding and fun job, but I know that the rewards will pale in comparison, and I will get depressed about it.
The ultimate irony is that if I am offered the position for which I interviewed today, the latest date I can start is the first week in September.
41. joezan - 7/28/2000 1:02:24 AM
Cal:
So is your reason for switching jobs a matter of money? (an excellent reason, I might add). Can you work in the private sector, or are all the interesting jobs in your line of work found in social services?
We really could use the money - my wife hasn't had an income in over 3 years and only worked part-time for 5 years prior to that.
I could work in the private sector, and have, in fact, looked into the prospects very recently - mostly training outfits. The money is pretty good, but it's too much travel. I've looked into some local companies (my cousin works for one and makes very good money), but it's very competitive, and they don't seem to like "ethnic" types.
42. marshame - 7/28/2000 3:57:25 PM
One of the worst work experiences I ever had was when I had to fire someone. The guy was sharp and bright, newly married, with a baby, and relocated in our community to take the job. He was hired as a financial analyst, but he didn't like to do the work (you know, the hard part that they pay you for.) Instead, he wanted to spend his days on the phone networking with his buds from grad school, etc. He was reasonably amiable, but I always felt a slight distain from him. He would frequently stuggle to fight a yawn when I was speaking to him, that kind of thing.
I anguished over firing him for weeks. First I convinced myself that he would come around, and that it was okay that his work was falling to his co-workers to pick up the slack. Then I felt that I would ruin his career and put him and his young family on the street. Then I blamed my boss, who had encouraged me to hire him in the first place. Then I avoided my other employees who were starting to display resentment at his lack of work ethic and my apparent unwillingness to address it.
I would wake up in the morning determined to rehabilitate him and go to bed at night resolved to fire him. The clock ticked toward the end of his 6-month probationary period. I was in misery. I could not share the situation with my immediate boss, as I knew he would blame me either way.
Finally, my (now ex) husband provided the right perspective. He said "Marsha, you don't have the power to ruin this guy's life. In fact, if you let him keep working here, you may well be keeping him from the job that he should be in, where he can make a real contribution, and where they'll be glad to have him."
43. marshame - 7/28/2000 3:57:59 PM
The day came. I asked him to come into my office and I closed the door. Before I had even returned to sit at the desk, I said, "There is no easy way to say this, and there's no point in beating around the bush. Your probation period is up and I'm going to fail you in probation. It has not worked out so you are going to be terminated."
He turned white as a sheet, and looked as stunned as if someone had him hit upside the head with a baseball bat. Then he turned red, then he screwed up his face and started to bawl. I was horrified. I got up and said, "I'm going to let you have a few moments to pull yourself together," and I hastened out the room and closed the door.
Everyone froze at whatever they were doing to watch me, studying my face. I darted out the suite door and paced (jogged?) up and down the corridors trying to calm myself down.
After what seemed like an eternity, I went back in. He had composed himself and now sat scowling at me. "How about if I just work part-time?" he offered. Good grief, I thought. A part-time financial analyst. In that way, he could do nothing in half the time. I told him that would not be acceptable.
But then, in my soft-headed, muddled guiltiness, I told him this: "I will allow you to stay on for 2 weeks." [Note to self: never allow someone you have just fired to stay.] "You can use that time to look for another job. At the end of the two weeks, if I do not have your resignation, I will fire you."
44. marshame - 7/28/2000 3:58:06 PM
So, the guy stayed. For the whole 2 weeks. He sashayed in when he felt like it, sauntered out when he felt like it, sat on the phone for hours at a time, and basically just screwed around for two entire weeks. My other employees looked at him with hatred and at me with contempt. At the end of that interminable two weeks, he placed his resignation on my desk.
Needless to say, he landed on his feet with a job equivalent to my boss's position. A year or two later, he was promoted to city manager of a small suburban community. I actually sent him a congratulatory note, observing that everything had come out well in the end. He did not dain to respond.
45. CalGal - 7/28/2000 6:15:08 PM
Joe,
I'm assuming you've discussed your lack of interest in your regular position with your current management?
Arky mentioned priorities above. I was thinking that the three major priorities in work are satisfaction, compensation, and quality of life. Your posts demonstrate your own priorities and how you balance them--and what you consider to be important in each case.
Of course, then definitions apply. For example, Arky's definition of "job satisfaction" means (I think) that she's comfortable and happy. You specify challenge and (I think) goal-driven work. Myself, I want independence and the ability to create/design. How do other people define job satisfaction, and (as Arky asked earlier) how do you prioritize aspects of your work?
46. CalGal - 7/28/2000 6:20:31 PM
Another priority that isn't usually stated until people run into someone like me is: security. Most people don't mention it as a priority until I suggest that they might have the ability to become a consultant--and then they realize that it's a big deal. (g)
Most people comfortably believe that employment is more secure than contracting. I disagree. It's not that I think that contracting is more secure than employment--it's that I find the tradeoffs to be equal. Each person views a particular employment status through their own prism of values.
An employee thinks, "I get $X /week, barring some disaster. Yes, I could make more money, but I value knowing when the next paycheck comes in and how much it will be."
This makes them feel secure.
Someone like me thinks, "What if some disaster happens and this job ends? If I'm an employee, I am only getting $X/week, and that won't prepare me all that well for the time after that with no income. If I'm a contractor, I'm getting $X + a major big Y/week and I'll make sure I always have extra in the bank, at least three months, and then no matter what happens, I'll have a good bit of time without worrying until I have to find a contract again. So I'm prepared in event of a disaster."
This makes me feel secure.
Most people think that the self-employed are comfortable with risk. This is not a given. It depends on the nature of the employment. Entrepreneurs are comfortable with risk. High-priced consultants (of any variety) are generally uncomfortable with risk--that's why they went into this line of work.
Likewise, many employees are more comfortable with risk than they might think. Taking on new responsibilities without an increase in pay or position, relocating for a new job, accepting a job because you like the manager--all of these, to me, are often incredibly chancy.
It's all a matter of perception.
47. Thoughtful - 7/28/2000 6:20:56 PM
Mamma don't let your babies grow up to be economists.....
48. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 8:28:33 PM
Congratulations, Joe! When will you know?
Well, the interview went well this morning. We were both very casual and he told me to let him know Monday after I talk to my principal and supt. I haven't called them because they don't work on Fridays in the summer, but I'm going to go in Monday morning. The main things I want to know from them are whether my schedule will continue to be like it is now, what things look like in the near future, and whether there looks to be any possibility of a position opening up for Bob in the next two or three years--not that it would change whatever my decision is, but it would be the same benefit in reverse of what I'm considering.
The room is nice, but not as pleasant as mine. There are no outside windows and the floor is concrete. I would have eleven new computers and a whole block (about 1 1/2 hours) to do the annual. My schedule would be very easy compared to what I have now, but not nearly as interesting. I would have a speech/tech writing class, a tenth grade "regular" English class and the yearbook. Same schedule second semester, but with two class slots switched. Money would be about $1000-1500 more with the yearbook stipend. Class sizes will be bigger, but not as much as I thought, and with only two actual classes the preparation and grading would be much more manageable.
I thought an upside of taking this job would be saving money by commuting with Bob, but he went with me today because he had to talk to the principal about something, and on the way home he got into an unpleasant confrontation with a tailgating truck driver, involving a lot of hand signals. Bob was furious. I thought, is this a regular occurrence? But I truly believe this was an isolated incident. Surely.
49. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 8:40:19 PM
WRT to priorities in jobs, I do value being comfortable, but for me that can only come with a lot of independence. I don't know how Bob's school compares to mine--the principal says that he's a hands-off administrator for the most part--but my general impression is that there is more direct involvement in what the teachers are doing and how they're doing it from the administration. I expect to be accountable, but being treated like a professional who knows my job is very important to me.
I have also learned the hard way that I can only do so much before I go into system-overload. If interesting, stimulating and challenging cross the line to stressful, I don't handle it well. That means keeping my workload within what I know are my limits, and I'm concerned that between Mose's activities and my job the line will be well-crossed next year if I stay where I am, though I'll only have to deal with it for 185 days.
On Bob's school, I like what I see for myself, but I don't like how things are going with Bob. They promised some relief in the math department, but instead they want him to teach a full load of fairly large classes, PLUS come in at 7:00 to teach calculus every morning. Ten students signed a petition saying they did not want to take it through distance learning, but would take it if Bob taught it. The compensation is not nearly enough for the extra work and time, so I think Bob will tell them no. I'd hate to go to work there and he up and get a job somewhere else because his workload there is too heavy. Mine, btw, would be unlikely to change.
50. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 10:19:59 PM
Jones,
Somehow I missed your questions earlier. Sorry!
Bob doesn't have a lot of extracurricular stuff there. I would be supervising the annual staff selling sandwiches at lunch daily, which doesn't thrill me, but with the easy schedule I won't mind it too much. They do have to get there earlier and leave later. The rule at my school is don't cut in front of any buses on your way off campus (g).
Bob enjoys the band and girls' basketball the most. He's not much of a football fan and the boys' b-ball team wasn't too good last year. He also has a teacher friend in a rival school and it was fun for them to go to games when the two schools played. The people are very nice to him, and the kids love having him at their events. They're always asking him if he's coming to their games, etc.
Bob also really likes the faculty and administration. I don't know how comfortable I'll be, but I felt good from the interview today. After twelve years at one place I'm used to being pretty autonomous. Even under a new administration that wouldn't change. I won't have any seniority in my dept, but the other English faculty there are all 30+ year teachers, and will likely be gone within the next few years.
I also agree with you about the benefits of working in the same school with a spouse. The schools generally like it, too. My schedule would be very different from Bob's next year if I stay put, though I like it pretty well. My school decided to do something completely different and put in a week-long winter break in Feb and moved spring break to mid-April. No other school I know of around here has done that. Since Mose is in a completely different school, her activities will take priority over the others, but that's only for three more years, so I'm trying to think beyond that.
51. arkymalarky - 7/28/2000 10:20:27 PM
BTW, I don't expect to teach more than another ten years, fifteen at the most, and I'm hoping that if I change it will be my last change before retirement. I'm planning to start my masters next year and hope I can go through it with no further job changes. If I take this job and don't like it, though, I would immediately go after something else. This would be the sixth school I've worked in, but the first five were in my first seven years of teaching.
52. joezan - 7/29/2000 12:56:41 AM
Thanks, Arky. I'll know early the second week in August - 10 or 11 days from now.
And good luck, whatever you decide - I know it's not an easy decision.
Cal:
The challenge is definitely what keeps me going, and my job is getting kind of old. My official title is court services training coordinator. But over the past few years we have: developed a fairly radical (for a detention facility) treatment-based behavior program; built a brand new facility; and entered into this accreditation process. I have been intimately involved in all of these projects, so my actual job has been on the back burner for the entire time I've been in this position (which is probably why I love my job - it is actually these "peripheral" projects which provide most of the challenge. .)
I am, though, on the faculty of the Michigan Supreme Court's Judicial Institute, which sponsors the training in the core curriculum of all court positions in the state. I really like doing these seminars, because I've got a much larger, more diverse audience, from all over the state. It's also the best way to network. But this is only 3 or 4 times a year, and is at the whim of my court, since they have to pay my salary and expenses while I'm off teaching people from other counties for 3 - 5 days at a time.
53. CalGal - 7/29/2000 12:16:36 PM
I have some other comments on Arky and Joe's posts, but I wanted to post a link to this--it's a Times' article, so I'm not sure when it expires:
Workers Challenge Employer Policies on Pay Confidentiality
The title is misleading, apparently, since there is nothing to challenge (again, according to the article):
In fact, it is already illegal to forbid discussions of pay, under federal labor laws enacted in 1935. For 65 years, the administrative courts of the National Labor Relations Board have held in case after case that employees are free to reveal their wages to one another, and that people fired for doing so must be reinstated.
But with organized labor in a deep decline, few employees know about the labor laws any more. And a lot of employers erroneously assume the statutes do not apply to nonunion employees.
I am amazed that any employer would try to fire an employee for revealing their salary information (presumably to another employee). If nothing else, it seems to me a violation of free speech. California has its own law restricting these policies--what are other states like?
And now, I'm off to hopefully find Glendajean's house. Wish me luck!
56. DocBrown - 8/1/2000 2:46:07 PM
I am amazed that any employer would try to fire an employee for revealing their salary information (presumably to another employee).
This surprises me, too. Businesses constantly survey each other to find out what they pay for certain jobs. They set their salary ranges based on this data; it is the heart of modern compensation practice.
At the same time, professional organizations constantly survey their members for the same data. They want this information for exactly the opposite purpose. If an employee fills out a pay survey for his/her professional organization, can he/she be fired? Of course not!
But any business can terminate any employee at any time, as long as they are sneaky enough. They can terminate you for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all, provided they show no evidence of discrimination.
57. janjon - 8/1/2000 2:54:51 PM
I'm amazed that anyone would be amazed that some employers will fire employees for discussing their pay with other employees. Not that I approve of the policy, I hasten to add. Any situation where there can be (for any number of reasons) disparities (perhaps wide) in pay (and/or perks) among employees who, more or less, are at the same level (or who perceive themselves to be of the same level in terms of factors like seniority, performance, skills, etc etc etc.) is a situation where knowledge in the ranks about relative pay levels is bound to be trouble.
All in all, however, I would say that a company that has to resort to a don't tell or else policy is a badly run company with wrong-headed philosophies on how to run its business.
58. joezan - 8/2/2000 7:54:38 AM
Well, that's one thing I'll never have to wonder about - they published my salary in the newspaper after the last salary study, and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't again.
59. PelleNilsson - 8/2/2000 8:35:40 AM
When I started out here long ago it was the Swedish Telecommunications Administration, a state agency. Every job had a grade and a thick book came out every year listing all 40,000 employees and their grades. It was studied intensely. Him promoted!? Ha!
60. DanDillon - 8/2/2000 8:51:09 AM
I'm feeling adequately emboldened by this thread and the initial posts in it to come forward with a confession.
I have decided to quit teaching.
I've been an educator for over six years, and I've finally come to realize that I am worth far more than the rewards I get for the time and effort I spend doing my work. To be sure, these "rewards" I refer to are not all monetary. Along with little money, however, I would mention a lack of respect for what I do (by both my peers and my students), a lack--or perhaps the total absence--of efficiency and dynamism in my profession, and the toil-to-spoil ratio's effect on my life at home.
I will teach this year, but the '00-'01 school year will be my last. Sure, I may return to it later on down the line (I reserve the right to be wrong, after all), but I need to date around and see what I'm missing. I saw a sign on a 7-11/Circle K-type establishment the other day that was touting $32,500 for an assistant manager, plus a signing bonus. This place was out in the middle of nowhere just off the interstate. I work in a fairly wealthy suburb, and I make considerably less than that. I nearly wailed.
I'm no missionary. Teaching is a highly impractical profession. It does not allow to me to maintain the quality of life I want my family to enjoy. I served my time in the Peace Corps. I'm through being a volunteer. If I choose to practice altruism, I wish to do so with some extra cash in my pocket. Teaching is altruism. And there's more to my life than being nice and poor and, by logical extension, stupid.
61. PelleNilsson - 8/2/2000 9:00:06 AM
What are your options, Dan? Or are you thinking about something specific already?
62. DanDillon - 8/2/2000 9:35:22 AM
My options are endless, really. I've got marketing/advertising/public relations in mind, as well as internal and external communications. I'm headed for something large, something corporate, something "business casual."
I know that I can get the job, but I want to be sure that I get the job I want. I've got a whole year (and next summer off) to research, inverstiagate, narrow down, and interview. This time next year, I'll be at my new work--at probably 1.5 times my current pay.
63. christipeters - 8/2/2000 9:45:58 AM
There are three former teachers in my divisions marketing department that quit teaching for similar reasons as you cite. As a parent who wants my child to have great teachers, I think it's a shame. As a parent who knows what it's like to be the sole support of her family, I can certainly understand wanting better pay.
64. christipeters - 8/2/2000 9:50:53 AM
I once had a career that I loved and found infinitely rewarding. I had my own stable where I raised, took care of, and trained my horses, and taught riding lessons both to people who just wanted to learn to ride or improve their competitive perfomance and as therapy to children and teens who had problems. I loved every minute and made enough money to be comfortable as long as I was careful.
Now I have a job. Don't get me wrong, it's a good job. I have interesting problems to solve, enough variety and challenge to stave off boredom without being overly pushed or stressed, and great people to work with. However, I don't love this job or find it as rewarding as I did when I was teaching riding lessons. I am here to get enough money to take care of myself and my daughter. Period.
65. theDiva - 8/2/2000 9:53:57 AM
(nodding her head in sympathy and recognition.)
66. phillipdavid - 8/2/2000 10:04:42 AM
Arky,
Just read the last twenty posts, and I suspect there may be something more than you realize to Bob's negative emotional outbursts on the ride home from school the other day.
It's nice to have some space in a relationship, and it's difficult to lose the space if you enjoy it or need it. That is true for me, at least.
67. christipeters - 8/2/2000 10:08:50 AM
Thanks Diva.
I don't think I need sympathy, however. I don't think there is anything wrong or bad with having a job simply for the money to support yourself and your family. God knows there are a lot of people who do! I suppose it would be wonderful if everyone was able to make a living doing something they love, but it doesn't work out that way for many people.
As for me, I certainly don't mean to imply that I hate my job - I don't. I am very lucky to have found another way to support us that is interesting and challenging and very well paying when I could no longer meet the physical requirements of the horse business.
(Well, I'm off to take the daughter to the doctor. Have a good day, y'all)
68. theDiva - 8/2/2000 10:10:21 AM
I don't mean sympathy as in 'awww....', more like sympathy as in "I understand." Which is really empathy, I guess.
69. theDiva - 8/2/2000 10:27:52 AM
the posts about public employees' salaries and the lack of compensation for teachers (also public employees) has me wondering.....if we were to increase the pay scale for teachers, how would we fund it? Increased local taxes? Bear in mind that the lions share of public education funding comes from local sources. Curtailed spending in other service areas? Which service areas?
How would we ensure public accountability? Would we then require more of teachers in the way of continuing education? Would teachers be subject to annual performance evaluations and receive merit-based pay increases?
Would we then increase the pay scale for other public employees with comparable measures of responsibility and for whom comparable credentials are required?
70. theDiva - 8/2/2000 10:49:22 AM
Our public school system has an FY2001 budget of $392,329,706. Funding percentage breakdown is as follows:
County 45.8%
State 49.6%
Fed 2.7%
City 0.4% (there are incorporated cities which use County schools)
Undistrib 0.3% (I have no idea what this is)
Carryover 1.3% (money left from last year's budget)
Out of this budget:
74.2% schools and instructional programs
6.4% debt service
3.8% central support
9.2% maintenance and operations
5.5% transportation
.9% general reserve
And
64.1% Salaries
18.1% benefits
3.4% supplies (!)
2.8% equipment
3.3% services
3.1% utilities
3.6% capital projects
1.6% reserves
So where do you cut? Or how do you gain citizen support for increased taxes to pay for increased services? Our citizens rejected a 1% meals tax - one stinking percent! - on three seperate occasions...the $$ would have gone directly to the schools.
71. theDiva - 8/2/2000 10:50:36 AM
oops. Separate.
72. Dusty - 8/2/2000 1:29:24 PM
DanDillon
Sorry to hear about your decision. Based upon your posts, it is clear that you are a special teacher. But if that job represents a salary increase, it is equally clear that you are sacificing a lot to remian as a teacher. More of a sacrifice than is reasonable.
Good luck with the job search.
73. christipeters - 8/2/2000 2:19:36 PM
Diva - gotcha on the empathy part.
I think one of the problems with getting public support of increasing teacher pay (support as in actually passing funding - be it bond, tax, whatever) is partly one of perception. I have heard:
1. They only work 9 mos of the year and only 8-3 at that.
IME, teachers work from 7:30 to 5pm and then spend long hours at home in the evening planning lessons and grading papers. The school system here only breaks for 8 - 9 wks in the summer. During that time, most teachers are required to take classes or other activities to maintain their certification.
2. Teaching isn't very hard, teacher's don't receive a very thorough education, people go into teaching because they aren't smart enough to do anything else, etc etc
I know I couldn't deal with a classroom full of kids day after day trying to teach them something.
I know a lot of the people I know are very bright and went into teaching because they really love teaching and kids. Unfortunately these people many times get discouraged in the public school system and change careers after 5 - 10 years teaching.
IMO, there is some justification for criticizing the standards at many colleges educational departments and there is room for improvement in the quality of education our teachers get.
3."I shouldn't pay taxes for education because I don't have kids so I'm getting no return for my money."
Can't they see that these kids become the pilots flying their plane, the police keeping them safe, the doctor or dentist they see, the salesclerk who knows how to actually help them properly, the CPA who does their taxes, etc etc? And that's not even going into the whole issue that an educated and employed person is less likely to be the criminal mugging them, or on welfare, etc
74. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:03:50 PM
PD,
I laughed a little when I read your post. Sometimes roadrage is just roadrage. But Bob and I have talked extensively about the situation and there is a problem. We commuted together 4 and 1/2 years, so we're used to that, and the convenience and savings on gas and vehicles, especially with Mose going a different direction and later having her own vehicle, is a huge plus; and on the job we only have to interact on the way to and from work if we want to. Also, we spend a great deal of time together outside work--more than any couple I personally know--and we are best of friends who don't hesitate to speak up (sometimes not a good thing, I admit), so things shouldn't stew if there's a problem. That's why we're hashing out every detail we can think of before we make a change.
The problem is that Bob isn't happy with his job situation right now, and he doesn't want to feel obligated to stay if I go to work there. I told him that I think part of the reason they called me was to make him feel exactly that. He doesn't want to come in at 7:00 am to teach an extra class, one he would have to do a great deal of preparation for, for almost no extra money. The students who wanted to take calculus specifically requested him and his superintendent promised him that that they would get the math dept "some help" this year. As far as he knows they didn't even look.
Well, what Bob has done has told them what he intends to have next year if he is to return to work there and that he won't come in to teach calculus this year. They will have to make the time for it, at least after school. He really can't come in in the mornings, and if he did our separate commute would defeat a lot of the financial benefit of me working there.
75. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:13:17 PM
This is all symptomatic of a much bigger problem, which DanD has poignantly illustrated with his explanation of his decision to change jobs (a sad event, and a common one in hs education any more). There is getting to be a serious teacher shortage in many areas because of the great economy and variety of job options which pay more and offer more opportunities than teaching, and teachers know they deserve more. This has been a problem in the maths and sciences, but it's expanding to almost every field. Math is so strained, that it's causing situations like Bob's, in which the teachers who are there are so overloaded and underpaid they leave too, resulting in a vicious cycle. His principal told him he looked into new math ed graduates and discovered there were only FIVE graduated in the entire state last May. Four math teachers quit at once in a Texarkana high school, and my principal told me that Texas schools are paying AR ed grads signing bonuses to come there and work.
My boss said that five years ago, for every job they had fifty applicants. If I quit there they will probably have to overload everyone with my load and limp along until they can find someone, probably not until the following school year. Even Mose's school, a much bigger one with a large pool of college grads to choose from, had to pull a man out of retirement to be the principal in the hs next year.
I've been doing this 19 years, and, at least in AR, this is the first time I've seen things in a crisis mode regarding the availability of certified teachers and administrators.
76. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:18:51 PM
The reason I stay in teaching, btw, is 1) I love it and it's not a stressful job to me, 2) I enjoy the time off, 3) I can live where I want to live, and since I'm not in an urban area I can generally do more with less--my house would cost a third again as much if I had it in town, according to the appraiser, and cost of living is cheaper here than in Little Rock or Hot Springs--I can't speak for anywhere else, 4) I will be able to retire at 50 at the earliest, and I can continue or not after that, full or parttime, as long as I'm enjoying it.
77. theDiva - 8/2/2000 3:23:49 PM
arky (and phillipdavid, too, since you're a veteran teacher)
do you feel there is less respect now for the profession than when you started?
78. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:28:53 PM
Great post, Christi.
On my situation, I've decided to take the job for several reasons. My school is going to change more quickly than I'd even thought, I'm afraid. My principal, who is a great guy, was very supportive and honest with me, and there are some variables that I won't go into here which indicate that things won't be the same there within the next couple of years. The commute is dangerous, the teaching load has been a lot, though I've enjoyed that since my class sizes are so small--it just keeps me from getting bored or stagnating.
They've always given me everything they could, and that's one reason I've always been happy there, though I could have made more with less work elsewhere. They don't have a big athletic department sucking funds away and their first priority has always been academics. But they're a small, poor district, and they can't sail in and offer me any more money or any less work. It has always been their policy to let any teacher who finds a better situation, or has to leave for any reason, out of a contract, and they will do the same for me. I'm going to talk to my superintendent tomorrow, a man whom I have more respect for than almost anyone I know. I will continue to stay in touch with teachers and kids there. With a centrally located Wal-Mart and email, you never really lose touch with anyone around here any more.
79. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:33:21 PM
"do you feel there is less respect now for the profession than when you started?"
Not me, Diva. I've always felt valued and loved in my current school, but I've seen that trend increase at other schools, as well, and with Bob's school. They love him there and don't want to lose him, but it's very likely to happen. We're just so much more overburdened, and with increased accountability for student performance but decreased time to help them the pressure's getting too much for many teachers, coupled with salaries that simply aren't competitive any more.
Bob's college prof told him that math ed majors are getting approached in their jr years by companies like AP&L with $25,000 signing bonuses and great starting salaries. What I want to know is...
Why weren't they there when Bob graduated!!
80. arkymalarky - 8/2/2000 3:53:47 PM
Oh my, it looks like I've done it again...just like work.
OK, YOU GUYS! HEADS UP OFF THOSE DESKS!!!
...and I promise to end the windy lectures!
81. Greystoke - 8/2/2000 7:41:14 PM
7-Eleven fires clerk.
Antonio Feliciano, a 7-Eleven employee who foiled a robbery by wrestling a sawed-off rifle from a would-be assailant, was fired for breaking the store's rule on robberies that says: Just hand over the cash.
Feliciano said the company rule wasn't his primary concern when he grabbed the armed assailant.
``I just wanted to be sure that I was coming home that night,'' he said.
Company officials said they fired Feliciano on Monday to emphasize the policy.
82. AytchMan - 8/2/2000 10:20:05 PM
Greystoke--
Your 7-11 story has triggered massive cognitive dissonance in my brainpan. In this day of lawsuits and cover-your-ass, 7-11's action seems eminently sensible. And yet, it's unbelievable.
I must now prepare myself a collins.
83. DanDillon - 8/2/2000 10:46:40 PM
Addendum
Don't get me wrong. I abolutely love teaching. I love it more than any other job I'm likely to ever have. I look forward to Mondays and could take or leave Fridays for this very reason: being in the classroom is usually bliss. And even when it's bad, I still feel a sense of accomplishment. I'm going to miss my students and the act of teaching a great deal.
Just not enough. My time in the classroom accounts for only about 50% of my time at (or doing) work overall.
84. phillipdavid - 8/2/2000 11:20:35 PM
Diva,
I never feel disrespected, but I am a little weird. I simply enjoy my job too much to consider the negatives. It's all bright and sunshiny in my little world of teaching. Even though I work in the lowest paying district in the state, I have lived well enough and haven't felt deprived. In other jobs I was like a duck waddling down an asphalt road, but the classroom is like a lake where I glide smoothly and am in my element. So plain and simple, I have been simply happy as a teacher.
But if I start to think about it, then I can easily come up with reasons to feel disrespected if I choose to. I have only been teaching for 7 years, and the republican legislature in my state has been attacking teachers-- their pay, their unions, their benefits, their certification requirements, and their contractual securities-- since I have started teaching. Ironically, the state has instituted fairly rigorous skill standards for the students at the same time, increasing the demands and pressure on us to perform.((my old Sun'sEye article: Per Ardua Ad Astra: Education Transformation in Oregon)
And since my community has just passed a school bond measure for the first time in its history, I feel like it must have a certain amount of respect for the good work we are doing.
85. Greystoke - 8/2/2000 11:22:02 PM
AytchMan
"And yet, it's unbelievable."
Perhaps 7-Eleven should modify their policy so that just the employees who get wounded during a robbery get fired. Then, no matter what happened, they could claim the employee took the wrong course of action.
86. AytchMan - 8/2/2000 11:39:33 PM
Grey--
3ha. I think you're on to something. However, in a spirit of compassion, I would like to see the company allow murdered employees to petition for reinstatement.
87. CalGal - 8/2/2000 11:44:19 PM
I've said this before, but it always irritates me when anyone tells you to not resist if you are faced with an armed robber. With any luck, some family will sue 7-11 after an employee is killed while not resisting--on the grounds that 7-11's policy caused him or her to lose their life while attempting to keep their job.
88. Greystoke - 8/2/2000 11:47:44 PM
Aytchman
No doubt their policy is geared toward defending themselves from lawsuits resulting from employees being wounded and killed during robberies.
To me, it seems quite a stretch to seek monetary damages from an employer because his store was robbed. But lawyers and juries have a logic all their own.
89. Greystoke - 8/2/2000 11:51:28 PM
CalGal
Soon, I bet we will be reading a news story that matches your scenario.
90. CalGal - 8/2/2000 11:54:41 PM
Dan, I'm sorry you can't make a reasonable living from your avocation. As Arky points out, yours is a common decision these days.
Arky, it sounds as if you have made up your mind? Can you wait one more year to be sure, or are the factors you hint at pretty conclusive?
91. CalGal - 8/3/2000 12:06:11 AM
Oh, and Arky, I still would love to see you look into contracting back to your current school, charging them beaucoup bucks to teach AP English in the afternoon. Or maybe early in the morning.
92. CalGal - 8/3/2000 12:22:14 AM
As far as teaching and salaries go, I don't know that it will ever be satisfactorily resolved. The public won't support an across the board increase for teachers for any number of reasons, but even if they did, it would be damn near impossible to start rewarding teachers based on merit in any meaningful way. Public schools rely heavily on the notion that all teachers are wonderful--i.e., all teachers are equal. Remove that and you'll have a mess, I think.
BTW, I think this discussion is very interesting and I in no way want to put a stop to it--but I would like to request that we keep it focused on careers, employment, salaries and the like. Which means that we can examine ways that we the public can pay teachers more, or if it is possible. But I'd rather we not get into education issues except to the extent that it touches on salaries, ability to pay, supply and demand, and so on.
It has been wonderfully on topic thus far (I hasten to add). It's just that I'd rather we not morph into an education thread--and actually, I'm kind of interested in what happens to a teaching salary discussion that can't rely on the familiar touchstones.
93. joezan - 8/3/2000 1:45:17 AM
While I'm not familiar with all of the ins and outs of salary scales for teachers in this area, it seems that they are relatively pretty well-paid, especially considering the lower cost of living - about $32,000 for the average new teacher, on up to well over $70,000, depending upon degree and years of service.
Every teacher I know who's come here from another district says the same thing: the degree to which the parents show concern - by showing up at conferences and meetings, helping out in the classroom (I offered my services two years in a row for two hours twice a week, and was placed on a waiting list. I finally got to help out one day a month for 1 1/2 hours at a time), etc, made all the difference.
Every time my wife or I have called our daughter's school over the last 3 years, the same woman has answered the phone - she's a volunteer. As are most of the assistant librarians, playground attendants, and other non-essential personnel.
Neither the bus drivers nor the custodians make anywhere near what the teachers do - which is not the case in a lot of districts - certainly, none of the above was true in any NY district I've ever worked with.
All of this adds up, and is the main reason we can afford to pay our teachers so well.
94. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:00:16 AM
It might make the difference as far as working environment, but it has nothing to do with how much teachers get paid. Every parent in a dirtpoor district could volunteer five hours a week and it won't give their district the tax base to pay teachers properly--even assuming they wanted to.
Of course, location is an acceptable reason for salary differences, so it doesn't carry the same baggage that variance because of performance.
95. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:07:26 AM
CalGal:
It might make the difference as far as working environment, but it has nothing to do with how much teachers get paid.
I beg to differ.
Where do you think the money comes from to pay those clerical and support personnel?
96. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:18:16 AM
...for instance, three or four years ago, after the teachers received their best contract ever, the bus drivers and kitchen help were forced to take 10% - 15% cuts in pay under the threat that the school district would contract the work out in order to help defray the cost of the teachers' contract.
97. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:19:43 AM
Joe,
You still need X amount of teachers, and you need to pay them Y. All the volunteerism in the community won't get the taxes to cover reasonable salaries if the people in the community don't make enough money to pay them all.
It's not only poor communities, either. If a suburban community decides to give themselves a tax break, what are the parents going to do?
To say nothing of the fact that any salary schedule that relies on parental slave labor is profoundly unreliable.
Imagine a grocery store that asks its customers to bag their own groceries and stock the shelves--all so that they can pay the cashiers more.
I realize that this approach is what many communities have taken--that along with those fundraiser atrocities that they inflict upon us every four weeks or so--but while it might be worth a backpat or two from a communal and societal perspective, it's hardly a successful or practical business model.
98. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:21:52 AM
Paying teachers more money at the expense of busdrivers and clerks might make us feel pious, but who is to say that this is the best solution for the community at large?
Oh, and I forgot to mention in my last post that the other problem with parental "volunteerism" is that they are depriving a number of other people of employment.
99. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:23:15 AM
And on the other side of the coin, we have the NYC schools - the most bloated and among the least effective in the nation.
At issue in every teachers' contract cycle is the money the City pays the school custodians, who retire at a higher wage, and have a much more lucrative retirement package than the teachers.
The teachers will continue to lose out there as long as the custodians belong to the Teamsters and they (the teachers) don't.
100. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:30:56 AM
...while it might be worth a backpat or two from a communal and societal perspective, it's hardly a successful or practical business model.
Maybe so.
...but our high school has been a finalist in the National Science Olympiad in each of the past 7 years, winning 1st place twice. And my daughter's tiny, rural elementary school was a finalist in this year's Global Destination Imagination competition.
From the perspective that actually counts here (unless your school is but another "business") it is an excellent educational model - exemplary, in fact.
101. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:32:27 AM
Does a centennial count?
102. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:35:22 AM
So basically we have the community as the equivalent as a business, the teachers as just one of many types of employees, and the customers, who are pretty much guaranteed service of some sort regardless of how they behave as consumers.
I don't want this to go down the path of "let free markets run the schools", since that gets old and is an education discussion, not a salary discussion. So I'd rather not hear about what we "should" do. (As Stuart sez, let's not should all over ourselves.)
So assume that teacher attrition continues to be a problem. What happens?
103. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:37:46 AM
Are you addressing joezan, or the room?
104. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:38:04 AM
From the perspective that actually counts here (unless your school is but another "business") it is an excellent educational model - exemplary, in fact.
Not really. For one thing, there's no guarantee that your success is actually due to all those parents robbing busdrivers and clerks of jobs. And to a certain extent, schools do have to operate as businesses--obviously, they differ in key areas.
105. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:38:55 AM
Both, either.
106. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:45:53 AM
Cal, I don't believe that you believe one word of this b.s. you're spouting.
Nevertheless, I can tell you that this whole region has negative unemployment, and there are no ex-busdrivers or kitchenladies going wanting - in fact, I don't think even one of them quit as a result of their pay reductions (which in itself should tell you something).
And, btw - we do things the sensible way in Michigan. The schools are funded from the state sales tax and the lottery.
107. DaveM - 8/3/2000 2:46:53 AM
I have a quick comment that is on point for the thread, but not for the education pay discussion: I just filled out my on campus interview (OCI) preferences for firm related jobs. I am pretty sure that I don't want to work for a firm (maybe a plaintiff's firm, but none of them are invited to OCI - a gripe for another day), but I think that the interview experience will be educational.
I got to select 50 firms from over 500 that will be attending; I have access to all sorts of information about them, such as their areas of practice, size, location, pay scale, etc. I chose a few firms in the DC area, a few San Francisco firms (basically, firms where I have friends working), a few NY firms, and a bunch of firms in the Midwest/Chicago area. A lot of my classmates are REALLY worked up about this whole process - it could easily determine where they spend a large part of their careers (summer associates usually try to get hired after graduation). They poured over all of the firms, have been attending interview "classes" with the Career office, and have basically been stressing out about the process since May. It is an interesting process.
108. DaveM - 8/3/2000 2:48:08 AM
103. joezan - 8/3/00 2:37:46 AM
Are you addressing joezan, or the room?
Is this Joezan's kid again?
109. joezan - 8/3/2000 2:56:09 AM
Y? R U the fuzzy hedded libral my dad always laffs abot?
110. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:59:03 AM
The schools are funded from the state sales tax and the lottery.
That's true in California, too, but isn't that on top of what they get from local property taxes? I don't think lottery funds the whole budget. But if they do, surely you aren't going to argue that that is in any way preferable to taxes, are you? Since lotteries are usually disproportionately played by the lower middle class and poor, it doesn't say anything terrific about how we fund our schools. I'm glad it's successful, of course, but I hardly see anything morally superior about bypassing the money of the rich and the middle class--who don't like to vote themselves higher taxes--and taking the money of the poor and the not particularly bright instead. I won't argue it's morally inferior, of course, but it's hardly anything to brag about. (much further down this line gets political, so we can move it to another thread).
And yes, I am serious. Sure, right now you are in negative employment, but that's the whole point. It's a pretty crummy model if it can't stand a slump--and not only would it break, it'd come splitting apart at the seams. And any model that requires parental involvement in order to succeed financially is nothing I would ever recommend.
Sorry, but this isn't an education thread, so I don't have to congratulate you on your wonderful education achievements. I don't think highly of any system that requires volunteers in order to fill in the gaps.
111. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:00:42 AM
Dave,
Why aren't you worked up about it? Aren't you worried you'll accidentally pick a firm that wants to make money?
112. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:04:56 AM
Cal -
No. I won't work for any of the firms - I just want to find out about the application process. I'm not opposed to making money by the way, I just try not to let it run my life.
113. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:06:45 AM
Joezan Jr. -
Ronald Reagan is not god. Ronald Reagan is not god. Ronald Reagan is not god.
114. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:07:00 AM
I was teasing; I apologize if it sounded sarcastic.
You don't want to work for any of these firms, or for any firm at all?
115. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:08:38 AM
Oh, and Dave--relatively few people let money run their lives. One can want to make a lot of money, even, and still be in the driver's seat.
116. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:11:48 AM
Cal -
I knew you were teasing. Sometimes it takes me a while to get down of my horse (it's pretty high, you know).
I don't really want to work for any firm. I want to get a masters in history or philosophy and then try to get a job either in politics or in the media (as if there is a difference).
I can see myself working with a firm at some point, just not in the near future. But, of course, you never know. I worked for a firm all of last Summer, and it wasn't actually that bad. I enjoyed the give and take of the litigation process, even if I didn't really give a shit about the cases I worked on. I worked exclusively on construction contract cases, so if I can enjoy that, I'll probably be pretty happy anywhere I go.
117. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:13:56 AM
So you're going to law school but once you finish you'll go back to school again?
118. joezan - 8/3/2000 3:19:10 AM
Cal:
First, no - not one cent of property taxes goes to the schools. Around 7 years ago my property taxes were cut more than 50% while the sales tax went up just 2%. No matter how you cut it, it's a much more fair way of funding schools, all of which now get more money than when they relied on property taxes.
Second, the lottery existed before it was used for the schools. So there goes that argument.
Third, volunteerism at schools around here, as in much of the midwest, has always been very high. Parents here have always realized their obligation to be involved in their children's education (and that this obligation goes way beyond yelling at the teachers when their kid doesn't perform) as well as other civic responsibilities - a virtue long forgotten in much of the rest of the country. Here, it is a way of life, and viewed with as much importance as working a paying job.
I don't think anyone here is concerned about a dearth of volunteers in an economic downturn.
119. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:22:20 AM
Joe,
You're missing the point. So I'll just leave it at this: if schools need all parents to give up 10 hours a week in order to pay their teachers, give it up now.
120. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:22:59 AM
Cal -
Yeah, I will probably stay in school. I might TA while getting a masters (I should be able to get one in one year) or I might get a job as a Hill staffer or something like that and go to school at night.
121. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:26:52 AM
Gawd, I'm thinking of going back to school now and the very idea gives me hives. I can't imagine going for more than half your adult life.
122. joezan - 8/3/2000 3:31:46 AM
Cal:
Haha! Didn't I just explain a little while ago that I tried to give them 4 hours per week, and was put on a waiting list, the result of which got me in there for 1 1/2 hours a month?
Do you know why this is? It's because in my daughter's school of 300 students there are always over 60 parent volunteers.
123. joezan - 8/3/2000 3:37:26 AM
Kill the volunteers! They're - GASP! - stealing the jobs!
124. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:41:48 AM
Uh Cal? Even if I get a masters after law school I'll be finished by 24.
125. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:51:05 AM
Joe,
Like I said--in an education thread, the school might be congratulated.
Believe me when I say that if a school came to me asking me to volunteer so that they could pay their teachers more, I would do two things: 1) laugh in their face and tell them I'd be removing my child from the school immediately and 2) consider switching parties and starting to vote for private school tax credits, because I'd be damned if I'd want my tax dollars going to morons who thought relying on parents was an effective way to manage a school.
Now. The issue isn't whether or not you approve of my reaction. The issue is how prevalent my reaction--or some other, more tactful version of "fuck off"--would be if all the schools in America felt justified in intruding on their parents to beg them to put other people out of work so that they could pay their teachers more. If you don't think it's the majority, best think again.
So you can congratulate yourself all you want on how great your school is--but it won't scale as a solution for teacher's salaries.
126. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:51:45 AM
Dave,
Which means you've been in school for all your adult life. No wonder you're odd.
127. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:53:45 AM
One more comment on Joe's lauding of volunteerism:
Either it is truly voluntary or it isn't. If it isn't voluntary, then why take away jobs by forcing people to volunteer for paying jobs--or make the parents give time when they could just as easily give money?
Just create a public school tax and slap it on the parents. It has the same effect and it's a lot easier to manage--and is a lot more reliable as a means of getting money to pay for teachers.
128. DaveM - 8/3/2000 3:54:51 AM
Actually, I haven't been. I graduated from college at nineteen and took two years off. I worked for the state of Kentucky, for a landscaping company, and for a law firm.
129. CalGal - 8/3/2000 4:05:50 AM
Then it's still more than half your adult life, so why were you protesting?
I had a friend like you once. She went to school for about 14 years and got 5 degrees. When she finally finished school she got divorced and put on 30 pounds.
On the other hand, schools couldn't exist without folks like you to provide teachers with both employment and TAs, so enjoy.
Now. Joe has touted volunteerism as the great solution to teacher's salaries. I disagree, obviously. But I asked a question a while back and (for those of you tuning in in the morning), I'd be interested in your feedback. Suppose the teacher dearth continues. What will happen?
130. joezan - 8/3/2000 4:08:01 AM
Cal:
You are thick-headed, and pretending that you haven't read what I've said.
The school does not - I repeat, does not "beg" for parents to volunteer.
Nor was anyone put out of a job by the parents - in fact, it could very well be argued that the parents were there first, and if the school decided to hire on more help, it is the volunteers who would be displaced.
And please - stop with this crap about "in an education thread". The question was asked - by you, btw - what could be done to improve the situation of teachers. I offer a perfectly good solution which happens to require that parents get off their dead asses and get involved, and blow your assumptions about why it can't work out of the water in the process, and you catch a major league case of obtuseness.
The system here is so superior, on so many levels, that to reject it as you have - whether you approve of the use of volunteers or not - is laughable.
Good night.
131. CalGal - 8/3/2000 4:27:27 AM
Joe,
I haven't developed a major case of obtuseness at all. Your example doesn't blow any theory out of the water--in fact, it violates one of my major premises. Namely, that you are not to discuss "shoulds".
I offer a perfectly good solution which happens to require that parents get off their dead asses and get involved,
That's a "should". "Parents should volunteer more, they should be involved, they should care about their kids schools" blah blah blah.
No offense, but that's bullshit. In our current system, parents have no moral requirement to go above and beyond their tax dollars to pay for schools--that is the entire thinking behind public schools--it is the PUBLIC who funds them.
So we either keep this model, which means you don't rely on parents doing something that they have no moral or legal obligation to do--and which could also create a whole host of other problems by "volunteering" real jobs out of existence. Or we change the model and accept the fact that any parent who sends their child to a "public" school should be paying more for that privilege. Then it isn't voluntary, and we don't have to ask them for time. We just make them pay more money (parents only) as part of their tax bill, and use that to fund teacher salaries.
I think it is Thoughtful who always reminds us that the plural of anectdote isn't data. Your system works for you. Great. But there are any number of reasons why it can't be recreated elsewhere--and that's even assuming that the success you touted has anything to do with the fact that you use parent volunteerism to put people out of work and save money to pay more in teacher salaries.
132. DaveM - 8/3/2000 4:28:24 AM
Cal -
I had a friend like you once. She went to school for about 14 years and got 5 degrees. When she finally finished school she got divorced and put on 30 pounds.
Honey, you are really funny. 22% of my class has a masters degree - it is almost required for a lot of specialty areas, like intellectual property law. The average age of my class mates is around 25. I am just gonna get one afterwards.
Suppose the teacher dearth continues. What will happen?
Teacher salaries will rise. Home schooling will increase in popularity. That is actually an interesting topic - is the rise of home schooling an effect or cause of the dearth of teachers (or is it unrelated)? Requirements for becoming a teacher will be lowered. Universities will invest more in their education degree programs. Public schools will see even less support - voucher type programs will come about.
But, then again, who cares. This should be a state issue right?
As an interesting aside, my father is on the school board for the public school system in my home town. The school district is the worst in the state of KY - one of the lowest achieving states in the Union. He has really raised hell - the school superintendent has been fired, the principal replaced, the state has come in to do two thorough audits. There has been an inordinate amount of petty bickering -some school board members (there are only five members) quashed the results of the audits, not even letting the other board members have access to them.
The former superintendant had been taking all of the funding increases allocated by the state to the District (since it was "troubled") and investing them in more administrators and raises for preexisting administrators (read: jobs for his buddies). In this situation, the question of a lack of teachers/low pay was pretty easy to fix - fire about half the administrators.
133. CalGal - 8/3/2000 4:29:56 AM
Don't get me wrong--I asked for predictions for what would happen if the teacher dearth continued, and I think your prediction is a reasonable enough prediction for what will happen in small, homogenous communities where everyone knows each other, the bus drivers and clerks come from a different town, and neighbors can ostracize or "guilt" non-performers into volunteering when times are short. I don't think it will work in the long run for even those communities, but you never know.
So I am not rejecting it as a prediction. But I got the impression you were offering it as a solution, and for the reasons I've mentioned, I don't think it will fly.
Oh, and as for the "crap" about an education thread--I was just trying to ensure that we made a distinction between the two. I'm not looking for happy children and happy parents--they're just the customer. This is an employment thread, where we're discussing teacher salaries. I'm very skeptical of any "solution" that requires the customers to voluntarily pay to increase the salaries of the workers providing a service.
134. DaveM - 8/3/2000 4:41:26 AM
I agree with Cal that, although Joe's system seems pretty good, it is not a viable "reform" plan. It is tantamount to fiating the problem out of existence.
I think an interesting program would be to have policy makers - mayors, county officials, state reps, etc. - get directly involved with the schools. Perhaps have each of them guest teach a class once a week, or work directly with administrators, or something where they actually see the problems that confront educators on a day to day basis. It would really improve priority setting and resource allocation, in my opinion.
135. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 4:45:10 AM
Well, I'm going to school and I'm 57. This term I'll take Economic History. I have previously master's level in the History of Learning and a course in the Philosophy of Science. After this term I will be formally qualified for post-graduate studies. Whether I will be accepted depends on if I can come up with an interesting project. That's the reason I reviewed 35,000 book titles from 1800-50 as I mentioned in Books.
136. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 4:52:32 AM
what specifically will you be studying about economic history?
137. DaveM - 8/3/2000 4:53:16 AM
Ohh. You're 57. That explains why you're so crotchety, you old chainsaw.
Whether I will be accepted depends on if I can come up with an interesting project.
Does it have to be about economic history?
138. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:01:37 AM
No, it will have to be in the History of Learning because that's where I have the master's thesis. The Economic History is really just a least-resistance filler to get the credits.
139. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:02:14 AM
With probability 1 this year will be my last in graduate school, and in a couple months I will begin a job search in earnest. (Hard to believe I first posted in the fray shortly after first starting graduate school.)
At a baseball game this weekend, I was talking to someone about what my outlook was, my preference just now being for a university professorship first. I got to the "then there's always the industry route..." spiel, and he said, "hey, those who can, do." It seemed like such a strange sentiment, one I haven't heard in a while, and all I could think was, yeah, those who can do good research, get academic offers; those who can't, work for industry or government.
Really, I think "research" must sound like we're looking up encycolpedia entries.
140. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:05:25 AM
Slackjaw
It's just the basic course. For part of the course one can choose subject. I will do 19th century. There is "Feminist aspects" too. PC is not limited to the US.
141. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:06:01 AM
Dave,
I'm not talking about master's degrees, but the process of being in school forever.
Of course, Slack just showed up and he's been in school for ever and is (reasonably) normal. So it apparently can happen.
Teacher salaries will rise.
That seems obvious at first, and I agree that this will be part of it. But what Arky seems to be suggesting--and certainly seems to be likely--is that the poor schools simply won't be able to pay enough to attract any teachers, even bad ones, in an economy that gives them so many other options with more attractive pay. So the rich schools will get the best people who choose to teach--and these salaries will go up. But the poor and rural communities might not have any teachers at all--and if they can't afford to pay more, what happens?
The odd thing is, of course, that if this is true it means that a weak economy is good for public schools.
Home schooling will increase in popularity.
Probably, but you have to be qualified, don't you? And the only reason it would increase in popularity is because the poor schools wouldn't have any teachers--in other words, it's not going to affect demand for teachers, but is in response to a supply problem.
That is actually an interesting topic - is the rise of home schooling an effect or cause of the dearth of teachers (or is it unrelated)?
Unrelated up to now, I think.
Anyway, I wonder if the solution to teacher's salaries is to charge parents for them on top of what is already paid. Or maybe the feds step in and pony up funds for areas that are designated problem areas (don't they do that for doctors now?).
I think the problem you mentioned (poor administration) is as unresolvable as Joe's "let's make everyone a volunteer".
142. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:08:08 AM
Slack,
Is it that universities are the only ones that care about research, whereas the others care about results?
Or is that just a line from Ghostbusters?
Pelle,
Do you ever attach a dollar amount to your education--in terms of what it will do for your career, I mean? Or is this for fun and self-improvement?
143. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:16:17 AM
No, industry jobs I'm talking about will involve research that is interesting in universities too. It's often just not as interesting to the researcher, and s/he has often less control over topics. Design of return policies from retailers to manufacturers when the retailer knows more about the returned item, some types of auction design, stuff like that. And, people tend to prefer unviversity life, because it's great. So universities can have their pick, and guess who they want? Those people often wind up on contracts with the industry folks anyway.
144. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:20:45 AM
And to some extent, it's self feeding. The best people typically go to universities, and other people want to interact with them.
145. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:21:44 AM
Or is this for fun and self-improvement?
This also has a dollar amount attached to it, of course.
146. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:22:27 AM
Is it possible that the people who like school and the university life have a skewed notion of what "great" is? (g)
Are you decided, then, on going to a university?
147. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:23:38 AM
CalGal
It's not for my career. If I get a doctor's degree I will be close to retirement. You can say I attach a dollar value in the sense that I have to down in working time and thus in salary.
I've always been a "humanities man". I come from a lower middle-class background. The traditional choice for an upwards mobile guy was between engineer and teacher (or priest). OK, so teacher can means humanities, but I didn't want to become one so I went the engineereing route, which I have never regretted. But now that I can afford to, I'm glad that I can return to the human sciences. I also like the university milieu.
148. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:26:04 AM
Slack,
Yes, it does. In that case, though, it frames differently.
For example, if Pelle is going to school in order to make X more dollars every year, then he can easily measure the payoff.
If he's doing it for "fun", then the issue becomes "how much can I invest in this, given that there is no material payoff? How much is an intangible benefit worth?" (I don't mean intangible in any technical sense. At least, not on purpose.)
149. CalGal - 8/3/2000 5:28:23 AM
I come from a lower middle-class background.
Hey, me too. But I was too dumb to know what this meant and had no idea what "upwardly mobile" entailed. So I degreed in English. Ended up in tech anyway, though.
150. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:31:34 AM
Is it possible that the people who like school and the university life have a skewed notion of what "great" is?
Oh, of course. We are all, I assume, pursuing our own conceptions of the good. On the other hand, flexible hours, (usually) attractive settings, 4 months a year free to work wherever you can get the funding to go, contemplation of interesting and important topics (just how informed do citizens have to be for democracy to work?), interaction with interesting young people -- what's not to like? I sometimes get the feeling that people think of academia as one trivial internecine squabble after another, and I have not seen too much of that, at least outside humanities lacking an agreed upon standard of good scholarship. Certainly, there's no shortage of debate -- what determines individual behavior when individual incentives and group interest collide, and how should that be studied? That'll spark controversy. But I don't know, does it sound trivial? It doesn't to me.
Are you decided, then, on going to a university?
Ha, well, is a univeristy decided on having me go to it? That's the better question. I do at the moment have a preference to stay in a university, but I still have to say, my decision will depend on the actual offers I get, not the ideal type of offer in each category.
151. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:33:37 AM
Slackjaw
How about government jobs? Here in Sweden the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank attract many bright, young economists.
152. DaveM - 8/3/2000 5:34:12 AM
Cal -
I think the problem you mentioned (poor administration) is as unresolvable as Joe's "let's make everyone a volunteer".
Transparency and oversight can help.
Or maybe the feds step in and pony up funds for areas that are designated problem areas (don't they do that for doctors now?).
I imagine that there are already programs that do this. The Kentucky Education Reform Act (KERA) substantially increased teacher salaries using lottery funds. Since 1989, the average teacher salary has increased from $27,909 to $38,642. The statistics are available here in .xls. That is not as large as I remember the stat being, but it is still sizable relative to other states. (See a comparison of changes in teacher salaries in the Southern Region on page 7 of this .pdf document)
153. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:37:25 AM
Yeah, and of course there are government jobs. I figure that if I am going to do that sort of research on a more limited agenda, I would like to be paid well for it. But it's not out of the question, there are good government jobs out there, given my interests.
The bad news is this process could take until next March. My dissertation is between 60 and 70% done but it's not exactly a cakewalk from here to the end. Far from it: decreasing returns may well make the 60-70% estimate deceiving.
154. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:38:58 AM
Do you mind telling us the no doubt mind-blowing title of the dissertation?
155. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:41:05 AM
...but the Fed is not a place I see myself having such a good time. I am sure it attracts many bright young economists, but not many applied micro or game theorists of any caliber.
156. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:42:25 AM
It's not that bad. Incentives, Asymmetric Information, and Legislative-Bureaucratic Interaction.
157. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:46:07 AM
I almost understand what it may possibly mean.
158. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 5:50:45 AM
It's quite straightforward really. Legislators connect in the policy process with agents that are differently informed, and in many ways, more informed than they are. Yet since these agents have goals and agendas of their own, legislators cannot always rely on them to use their information in ways legislators would like. Therefore parts of or facts about the policy process that seem strange may be understandable when one accounts for the reckoning of these information asymmetries in the design of the policy process.
159. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 5:55:50 AM
I'm moving to the slow thread before CalGal goes apoplectic.
160. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:10:32 AM
arky, PD
thanks, I was curious about that.
Joe, Cal
Federal law prohibits the public workplace from using volunteers to replace paid workers. Not substitute, not supplement, replace. So IOW, if my budget includes a secretarial position and I choose not to fill that position and instead have the duties performed by a volunteer, I'm breaking that law. I don't have the specific cite....but when I was in human services (those agencies rely heavily on volunteers due to lousy funding), H.R. was quite clear and quite adamant on this point.
DaveM
137. DaveM - 8/3/00 4:53:16 AM
Ohh. You're 57. That explains why you're so crotchety, you old chainsaw.
It's all about perspective...my first thought was 'oh, that's why he's so interesting.' Ah, youth.
161. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:13:03 AM
Pelle,
I wouldn't have gone apopleptic--it is still a career discussion (assuming I understood it).
Diva,
That makes sense. I was surprised that Joe didn't accept my objection to the use of volunteers as valid. Since I'm assuming that Joe's school didn't break the law, where is the dividing line?
162. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:16:07 AM
Replacement of paid workers. So, say for example you have budgeted for two secretarial positions, and you've filled those positions. Still, there's more work to go around than those people can possibly handle. That's where the parent volunteers step in.
163. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:17:01 AM
Replacement of paid workers. So, say for example you have budgeted for two secretarial positions, and you've filled those positions. Still, there's more work to go around than those people can possibly handle. That's where the parent volunteers step in. Now that's okay, that's acceptable. But if one of the secretaries quits, you use a parent volunteer to accomplish those duties, and you never advertise to fill the position, that's a big no-no.
164. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:17:21 AM
Frigging laptop.
165. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:22:22 AM
So suppose you have one busdriver working part-time, and you have budget for a full-time driver. If you used parents to fill the gap instead of giving him the extra hours, this is a nono?
166. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:27:35 AM
One other question--suppose a school district evaluates their budget and decides to use all the increase towards teacher salaries and rely on parental volunteerism to account for the significantly expanded needs in other areas. Is there any point at which that becomes abusive under this law? (e.g. one paid bus driver, fifteen volunteers)
Or in your line of work--suppose you have funding that could be used to increase your staff by one person in an area that you already use a volunteer full-time. But instead, you choose to use it to increase the salaries of employees.
167. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:29:50 AM
On a different subject--how many people know the dollar amount of the benefits they receive?
168. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:30:31 AM
Hm. Not quite sure. It would depend upon whether that driver had been hired as PT or FT. In gubment (assume schools are included), your budget each fiscal year includes a set number of FT and PT positions.
So, if that driver had been hired as FT, wanted FT, but you were only giving him PT hours so you could use that parent driver and save $$, that would be wrong and H.R. could and would come down on you like white on rice.
But, if that driver were PT, had been offered extra hours and declined them, and you were using a volunteer to drive while still advertising the FT position, that would be okay.
You just can't entirely replace a paid position with a volunteer.
169. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:38:55 AM
WRT to your first question....not quite sure. For one thing, such a proposal wouldn't fly politically. It'd never make its way past the budget officers because formulating your budget based on such an intangible as volunteer hours is irresponsible. And the transportation people probably wouldn't propose it anyway. They have enough trouble hiring, training, and retaining drivers who start at $12.00/hour and make up to about $20.00/hour (and worth every penny. Ever been on a school bus?)
Second question is a definite no for a couple of reasons. First of all, you receive your funding after you tell the budget office how you will use it. (If your request makes its way past the budget office, it has to be approved by the pols.) Now, if you want to eliminate a position, you have to explain why it's being eliminated and how you propose to accomplish the tasks assigned to the position. (Red flag to HR - using a volunteer to replace a salaried worker.) If you decide to take those funds and reallocate, it cannot be in the area of employee salaries for the simple reason that each position is paid according to a published scale, and increases are given through annual merit evaluations.
170. DaveM - 8/3/2000 10:40:25 AM
Gramma Diva,
Just because you and Pelle can relate a little doesn't mean he isn't crotchety. He traumatized poor Jenerator the other day.
The only "cost" I can see to using volunteers is if it prevents the schools from having a legitimate claim to tax money. For instance, if a local tax levy is constantly voted down because a school performs well statistically, but that statistical performance is due to volunteers who can then control the ideology of the educational process.
Actually, lost tax revenue, etc. from having the volunteers employed in an alternative position could clearly be better; most volunteers, I suspect, are not likely to get a job when the school says
"no more volunteers," though.
This whole anti-volunteerism schtick seems a little Randian.
171. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:42:36 AM
Diva,
It'd never make its way past the budget officers because formulating your budget based on such an intangible as volunteer hours is irresponsible.
Well, yes. Hence my mention to Joe that any such plan was a lousy business model.
So I wonder how Joe's school is getting away with it? Perhaps they keep the balance reasonable enough that it stays under radar.
172. DaveM - 8/3/2000 10:45:30 AM
Another quick comment on the volunteerism thing - it is probably the norm, not the exception, in private schools. Every Catholic school I know of has a susbtantial volunteer force, especially in lunch crews, custodial positions, and clerical positions.
173. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:47:24 AM
Dave
Quit bein so impudent or I'll whack you with my cane. Never mess with an ole preggo broad.
Oh and before I forget, did someone upthread ask about the $$ value of volunteers? For professionals, $20/hour. All others, $12/hour.
And theoretically, I see where you're coming from, but for all practical purposes it simply doesn't work that way. Volunteers, however significant their contributions, perform the support work, not the meat and potatoes stuff. Moreover, the schools wouldn't be denied funding due to the sheer number of volunteer hours. You don't formulate a public budget based on such an intangible.
174. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:48:57 AM
Dave
Absolutely. Gracie's school has a positive army of parent volunteers. My hat is off to them. Those women are there day in and day out, it's a beautiful thing. The school wouldn't run without them.
175. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:50:10 AM
Cal
I'm not sure that what Joe's school is doing is wrong. You'd have to examine their budget at the line item level to make that conclusion.
176. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:51:52 AM
Cal
your #167. I do. But I ain't sayin. I'd be giving away the dirty little secret of public servants everywhere. (We actually ARE in it for the $$$.)
177. CalGal - 8/3/2000 10:55:32 AM
Diva,
Okay, but you can speak of it as a percentage of your salary (which is also an unknown and stays so), can't you?
178. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:55:35 AM
dammit, here I am on annual leave and talkin shop. I'm going over to the Cafe.
179. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:56:00 AM
yeah, I can. I was just funnin. Lemme do the math.
180. theDiva - 8/3/2000 10:57:03 AM
If my recollection of the dollar amounts are correct, somewhere between 18 and 22 percent.
181. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 11:36:43 AM
Diva -- Message # 160
Thanks for the nice compliment.
DaveM -- Message # 170
I didn't "traumatize poor Jenerator". First there is nothing poor about her in whatever sense you want to use the word. Second, you cannot even begin to guess the nature of our relationship.
But I admire your stamina. You made your last post at about 11.30 am my time which must be bloody late (or early) wherever you are in the US. And here you are five hours later heaping insults on your elders. Not bad, Dave, not bad at all.
182. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 11:52:28 AM
Dave
I just checked Politics. Have you been to bed at all?
183. theDiva - 8/3/2000 12:00:00 PM
Pelle
You're welcome. I think you're just swell.
And re: DaveM....the child never sleeps.
184. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 12:05:35 PM
And you are swelling. A fine match.
185. DaveM - 8/3/2000 12:42:46 PM
Pelle -
What do you mean by swelling? (ego getting larger?) I post EST. I was actually admiring your pluck the other day, but didn't feel like chiming in on the "spam" debate.
Diva -
I was just kidding about the gramma comment. I don't think of my parents as old, and you still have a couple of years 'til you're their age.
I'm actually an extremely good sleeper - I just basically operate on a 30 hour day (up for twenty, sleep for ten). It wreaks havoc with my life, but I have been this way since high school (read: since puberty). That is actually the thing I despise most about a 9-5 job; I simply lack the discipline to sleep at an appropriate time.
186. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 12:51:56 PM
Dave
Diva is going to have a child in about seven months.
187. DaveM - 8/3/2000 12:58:44 PM
Pelle -
I know. I also know that she has a birthday coming up.
188. PelleNilsson - 8/3/2000 1:14:19 PM
So why do you ask about swelling? But we have to stop this or Calgal will hammer us into the ground.
189. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 1:21:21 PM
Cal..."I had a friend like you once. She went to school for
about 14 years and got 5 degrees. When she finally
finished school she got divorced and put on 30 pounds." So you are suggesting that the school caused the personal problems? That w/o the education her life would be improved? That education is a waste of time? I seems to me that you can mange better debate than to rely on causation through correlation(NOT possible) or sweeping generalizations. In any case, maybe she was skinny and had a lousy husband.
190. DaveM - 8/3/2000 1:39:26 PM
PP -
I'm pretty sure that Cal was just making a gratuitous jibe. Last I checked, those are allowed to commit fallacies. Cal, though, should not seek employment as a roaster.
Pelle -
For some reason (youthful egocentrism, I suppose), I completely skipped over Diva's post. I thought the swelling comment was directed toward me.
Diva -
Is having a child going to affect your employment? How much maternity leave do you get?
191. CalGal - 8/3/2000 1:48:46 PM
Actually,it wasn't even a gratuitous jibe--just random association in jest. PP, your display of earnest righteousness run amok will be graciously overlooked.
Back to regularly scheduled topics.
Benefit dollar value, anyone?
192. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 1:55:49 PM
It did not look like jest to me considering some previous posts...but if so, why not stay on topic. It was an interesting discussion. Plus, we can disagree in this thread w/o ad hominum attack, no? Why is it righteous to state what I think? And I do not believe that your jibe did not reflect your thinking. I found that of interest, and responded. Period.
193. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:02:55 PM
PP,
It was on topic. Going to school for a long time means (usually) not working--or working at something that is a stopgap until one's "real" career (which starts when one finishes that endless education) begins. As such, I was saying, "Yeesh. I don't see how anyone could do that." Idle comment, nothing more.
As for it being a real association that I made--no. In my friend's case, I do think that she used school to delay making life decisions. But that's not the first or even tenth thing I think of when someone goes to school for a long time. I was goofing with Dave.
As for it being an attack, I don't see it as any more of an attack than saying "Gawd, I don't see how anyone can handle the insecurity of self-employment".
Finally, I realize you think things are dull around here, but you're not going to start a pointless fight in this thread, thankyouverymuch.
194. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:04:43 PM
Oh, and no, it is not righteous to state what you think. It is earnest righteousness when your alarm is set to such sensitivity that you miss a goofy remark and take it seriously. But--newsflash--I was not being terribly serious about the earnest righteousness remark, either.
195. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:06:54 PM
Chrissake Cal...I was just posting here. AND...so it was or wasn't in jest? I still think it reflects your thinking, and that's why I posted it.
196. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:08:57 PM
Do I find the idea of going to school for a zillion years to be ick? Absolutely. Do I think that it reflects a character flaw that will result in the student being divorced and fat? Do I really have to answer that? Of course not.
197. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:10:02 PM
And you are welcome to post about anything job related--including your feeling that there is a prejudice against long-time students.
I was merely surprised that you would think I was serious.
198. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:12:15 PM
But what was interesting is whether the "schooling" pays off...as in one has been in school for one"s entire "adult life" when they are "24". Is it worth it either personally or economically?
199. marshame - 8/3/2000 2:25:10 PM
Speaking of benefits dollar value, do you consider FICA a benefit? Our board does, but the employees certainly don't, and that's 6.2% of their paycheck, involuntarily deducted, not counting the 1.45% FICA med.
Re bennies: My employer provides 21.65% retirement (including their FICA share) plus $2,784 medical ins. plus $60 life insurance. This does not include any kind of calculation for paid leave, workers' comp or disability coverage.
Is that what you're talking about, CalGal?
200. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 2:25:58 PM
For the vast majority of graduate programs, even the vast majority of MBA programs, it had better be worth it personally, because it will either (a) cost more than it adds to earnings, or (b) represent a cut in lifetime income (i.e., even if you don't pay a dime due to scholarships and fellowships).
There was an article in BusinessWeek or something several years ago, about the cost-benefit calculus of an MBA. Outside the upper eschelon, not many schools actually added more to earnings than their cost in tuition and lost earnings while in school.
201. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:28:12 PM
Marsha,
Yes, that's it. Is it 60/year in life insurance, or 60/month?
How about education benefits? Disability?
202. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:32:16 PM
Slck...there are some jobs ya just can't get w/o the degree...how can that not be a benefit if that's what you want to do?
203. marshame - 8/3/2000 2:32:55 PM
Life Ins is $60 a year which basically provides 100% salary coverage. Employees may supplement.
Education benefits consist of tuition reimbursement up to $250 per quarter/semester for classes that contribute to your value as an employee.
Disability = 70% of take home pay, which is pretty good when you consider no 7.45% FICA, no 7% employee portion of retirement, and no 20% (est) federal income tax.
204. marshame - 8/3/2000 2:34:16 PM
That should be 70% of gross, not 70% of take-home.
205. CalGal - 8/3/2000 2:38:41 PM
Marsha,
ACtually, FICA is a benefit. Not the 7.5% that the employee pays, but the other 7.5% that the employer pays. Not only do they pay it for you, but you aren't taxed on it. Just ask anyone who is self-employed.
PP,
If someone is working on their third degree by the age of 24, I consider that to mean they are spending all their time in school. This is not in and of itself either good or bad. But it's fairly accurate as a statement.
206. marshame - 8/3/2000 2:43:38 PM
Re FICA
"but you aren't taxed on it [the employer's portion]."
You are taxed on it when you collect it (if you collect it.
If we could opt out of Social Security, I am quite sure our employees would vote to do so in a New York minute.
I sympathize with self-employed folks who have to pay both sides of the equation.
Most of our benefits are realized post-retirement, and that is why they can get away with paying us less in salaries than the going market rate. For example, an employee who puts in 30 years gets 100% of his salary at retirement, and can purchase health and dental insurance for $110 a month.
It's just that damn 30 years that's the problem.
207. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 2:45:00 PM
I agree PP, but even though that's job related I would classify it as a personal benefit.
208. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:45:14 PM
The purpose of social security is to redistribute wealth.
209. PsychProf - 8/3/2000 2:46:21 PM
Slack...me too.
210. arkymalarky - 8/3/2000 3:15:55 PM
Interesting discussion. Wish I could've been here for it. To answer Cal's question way upthread very quickly, yes, I decided to take the job. My principal and supt were very supportive and made it clear that if I wasn't happy I had a home back there. The AP Eng is out because of time and logistics, even if my school had the money to contract me to do it, which they don't. I've got the easiest schedule I've ever had, so I'm just going to enjoy it. The new school staff and admin has been very nice and I think I'll like it fine, but if I don't I'll just go somewhere else.
I would love to put my two cents worth in on the earlier discussion, but to retrace it would be more than I have time or energy for. I do think that states and schools are responding to the changing job market, though slowly, and they really don't have any choice. The first item on the legislative agenda in AR this session is raising teacher pay. The thing here is, AR is so rural that they can't simply shut down every small school, and even if they did, they'd still have problems with neighboring states siphoning off their teachers.
My school (I guess I should say my former school) has a great supt, and through his efforts we are in better financial shape than any school in this area, yet our performance and facilities are comparable to any of the neighboring schools--generally better. But if there are no teachers available to fill vacancies, the situation for them can change very quickly, and a lot of our success has come from the effective administration of the school. It will come to the point that schools will have to adjust to supply and demand and pay math and other hard-to-find teachers more than ones like me. But the shortage is spreading across the curriculum, so some sort of across-the-board raise is going to be necessary, and the figure floating around at this point is $3000. We'll see.
211. arkymalarky - 8/3/2000 3:16:29 PM
PS--I haven't told my kids yet. That's going to be hard. I'm having a pool party for my annual staff next Sat, but they'll all know by then.
212. marshame - 8/3/2000 3:27:53 PM
Arky
Change is good, and life goes on. Focus on the positives and you won't have "buyer's remorse."
213. arkymalarky - 8/3/2000 3:42:11 PM
Thanks, Marsha. That's what people here have been telling me, and they're right. I'm leaving dear friends and a wonderful place, so I'm not fighting being sad about it, but I've thought and talked about it a lot the last few days, and I'm not going to second-guess my decision, either.
214. theDiva - 8/3/2000 3:51:38 PM
wow, Arky, that was really brave. My hat is off to you.
DaveM, I knew you were goofing, it's ok. WRT maternity leave, the County doesn't give it per se, but each employee accumulates a certain amount of sick and annual leave per pay period. The longer you are with the County, the more annual leave per period you may accrue. So I can take my annual and sick leave, and if the doc says I need to stay out longer, I can draw on the sick leave bank for as long as I need to. Then for unpaid leave, there's the FMLA.
215. CalGal - 8/3/2000 3:53:31 PM
Diva, don't you get six weeks of disability, too?
216. theDiva - 8/3/2000 3:54:23 PM
In NY I did. I'm not sure how it works in Va.
217. CalGal - 8/3/2000 7:42:32 PM
Arky,
Good for you. I think you'll enjoy the free time. Besides, it sounds like there is almost no risk involved. If you don't like it, you can return--or find another job elsewhere.
Okay, Arky's problem is solved--thread's over! (g)
Joe, any word on your interview?
218. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:14:48 PM
Pursuant to the discussion last night, the Mrs. just got wind of a retroactive salary increase thanks to the "beginning teacher salary initiative" in California. It is now relatively more attractive to become a teacher than a starting accountant, but I assume the lifetime salary schedule is still relatively flatter.
219. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:16:22 PM
Well, that's good news! Is she taking you out to celebrate?
220. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:26:30 PM
Nah, I told her to get right back in that kitchen and whip me up somethin' real special-like.
Alternate answer: no, we're going out tomorrow instead.
221. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:33:17 PM
I imagine she just reminded you who the primary breadwinner was and handed you the apron?
Retroactive is very cool. Hope it's a nice chunk.
222. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:35:54 PM
haha, I think she's good enough at backward induction by now not to play that card. She's looking at 509 years of having it the other way around.
But yeah, she handed me the apron anyway.
223. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:37:05 PM
509 years
Have I mentioned that we are of Yoda's race?
Or make it 50.
224. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:44:48 PM
Strictly speaking, if she's good at backward induction and I'm selfish, she should play that card, because our game will most likely end in the reverse situation, and I can't commit not to play that card when my node of the game tree comes up. I guess she thinks I'm not selfish.
225. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:50:57 PM
Um. Are you saying she should take her shots now because when you make more money, you'll bitch if she asks you to take out the garbage?
And if that is what you were saying, why didn't you just say so?
226. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:52:07 PM
(he opens his eyes wide)
But I thought I just did say so.
227. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:54:07 PM
My statement was much more general.
228. CalGal - 8/3/2000 11:56:29 PM
Ah, so you abstracted.
BTW, probabilities still hurt my head.
229. Slackjaw - 8/3/2000 11:59:16 PM
why, specifically?
230. joezan - 8/4/2000 12:33:45 AM
Cal - Message # 133:
...But I got the impression you were offering it as a solution, and for the reasons I've mentioned, I don't think it will fly...
...I'm very skeptical of any "solution" that requires the customers to voluntarily pay to increase the salaries of the workers providing a
service.
Cal, I think what you're missing here is that to these people, volunteerism in the schools is most definitely not a "solution" to some "problem". It has simply always been. I have to admit that this concept was totally foreign to me - I'm from NY, remember. But, having seen it in action I cannot believe that it is not embraced everywhere. God knows - and there is ample evidence to prove - that throwing money at the problems plaguing the schools hasn't worked, even when that money translates into high salaries for the teachers. See, one way or another, you do pay. But it is a proven fact - hell, it's a given - that when parents "pay" by donating their time and effort (and, really - what's 1 1/2 hours a month?), the results are a whole lot better.
That said, my screed on volunteerism was not my only suggestion. There is still much to be said regarding the issue of distribution of school funding, and the fact that many states have finally realized that property tax was about the most unfair way to accomplish this because, of course, teachers in lower income neighborhoods end up getting paid less, so these areas end up with those teachers who are less qualified/competent/motivated, etc, etc, etc.
But maybe this discussion is for an education thread
231. joezan - 8/4/2000 12:42:28 AM
167. CalGal - 8/3/00 10:29:50 AM
On a different subject--how many people know the dollar amount of
the benefits they receive?
This gets rammed down my throat every year - and I'm always impressed, because it is about 20% of my salary.
Of course, that includes vacation, sick time, personal time, insurances, retirement, paper clips, pencils, etc, etc.
232. joezan - 8/4/2000 12:56:06 AM
Cal - Message # 161:
Since I'm assuming that Joe's school didn't break the law, where is the dividing line?
Federal law does not mandate, for instance, that a school provide playground monitors or assistant librarians. And once a school has one or the other, they are not, as Diva's post seems to imply, obligated to provide them forever. They just can't fire them because they don't feel like paying them anymore.
However, in our school district these jobs were always held by volunteers. This is a very prosperous county, but this district happens to be in a rural part of the county which has only recently realized any degree of prosperity. Still, these non-essential positions are pretty universally filled by volunteers - even in the very affluent areas.
233. joezan - 8/4/2000 12:59:30 AM
Also, regarding the discussion of bus drivers:
Lest anyone get the idea that I said we use volunteers, I didn't. What I said was that the school district gave them the ultimatum - take a cut in pay, or we'll go with McBus.
...same for the kitchenladies.
234. bubbaette - 8/4/2000 2:46:56 PM
Well about damned time! I finally got the call in for the interview for my new-job-to-be. I tell you, when I'm running the place, things will be done much more efficiently.
235. CalGal - 8/4/2000 3:00:30 PM
Bubba,
I don't know if you can fix it. One of the reasons I like headhunters is that they usually move quickly. But contact delays are common and incredibly frustrating.
But congrats! Did I miss your description of your new job and it's further back in the thread? I'll hunt back if so.
236. bubbaette - 8/4/2000 3:31:11 PM
It's not technically mine yet, but it's a senior policy/planning position with a large Virginia agency. I would be the legislative liasion with the General Assembly and the agencies regulatory coordinator, as well as conducting policy-based studies. It's a two grade increase over my current position and would be far less political.
I have a member of the senior agency management team stumping for me who, in fact, had asked to be removed from the interview panel because he's already made up his mind. I'm having dinner with him the night before my interview and he's been filling me in on the agency's initiatives, personalities, etc.
237. arkymalarky - 8/4/2000 6:09:57 PM
Good for you Bubba! I know you've been waiting for this for a while. Let us know how everything goes.
238. CalGal - 8/4/2000 7:51:08 PM
Bubba,
Wow, it sounds like a great job. Best of luck!
On another subject--Slack said something a while back that hit home with me. Namely, that the material value of education is often limited, and that many people who go back to school don't get the payback they'd hoped for.
About three years ago, I decided that I wanted to either expand my options or change careers. I was a bit bored with the type of contracting specialty I am pigeonholed into (still am) and wanted to have more options available.
The obvious answers seemed to be that I should switch industries or occupations for a while, or go back to school.
I got that far and immediately realized several difficulties.
239. CalGal - 8/4/2000 7:51:52 PM
This strikes me as ridiculously unfair, somehow. I realize that to the "hey, we're here to work, care for our dependents, and count our blessings" crowd that my complaint must seem absurd.
But I am a person who very much enjoys work, wants continual challenges, and constantly looks to improve my options. And the fact that I have far fewer options than I would if I had been half as successful over the past ten years and made half as much money--well, it just seems like someone should have warned me that I was unknowingly locking myself in.
Had I had the breathing room some six or seven years ago, that would have been a much better time for me to consider these sorts of issues. At that point in time, law school or a lower quality MBA might have been a decent investment for me. But now, it's too late for that. And while I'm not ancient, the fact is that I am too old to look forward to paying my dues in some employed job for five or six years to build the experience I need to go out on my own as a consultant again--and that's only if I spend a fortune and a great deal of time going back to school, which presupposes that I could get into a school like Stanford or Berkeley, which is unlikely at best.
This put me in quite a funk--one that I'm still not completely out of, quite frankly.
I realize that this isn't the everyday sort of career problem. But I mention it for the young'uns here, to alert them to the fact that career changes or investments must be planned--and the more successful you are, the fewer options you will have if you don't plan.
240. KuligintheHooligan - 8/7/2000 5:27:22 PM
I posted this small quiz in the Quiz Thread:
This from the USAToday website:
What are the most hazardous occupations? The top three, in terms of deaths per 100,000 workers:
#1 - 178 deaths
#2 - 157 deaths
#3 - 88 deaths
The average for all jobs is 4.8 deaths per 100,000 workers.
The stats come from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Answers will be given in that thread, not this one.
241. CalGal - 8/7/2000 6:05:27 PM
Why not this thread?
I don't know the occupations, but I would guess that cab drivers and convenience store workers rate in there somewhere.
I'm assuming that you aren't counting suicides.
242. Slackjaw - 8/7/2000 6:43:00 PM
drug pusher's got to be up there.
243. Greystoke - 8/7/2000 6:44:35 PM
I guess logger, fireman, and pizza delivery man.
244. KuligintheHooligan - 8/7/2000 6:49:30 PM
CalGal, I just didn't want to have to check two threads, that's all.
The statistics rate the most "at risk" occupations. Homicides are definitely included, but I don't know how suicides fit in. Your taxi cab driver guess is a good one and is #1 in homicides. In fact, it was nearly four times higher than the #2 occupation.
As for this particular quiz, though, taxi drivers are ranked #8.
Greystoke, logger is #2. Nice guess.
245. KuligintheHooligan - 8/7/2000 6:50:07 PM
Well, to be precise, the occupation at #2 is "timber cutter."
246. Greystoke - 8/7/2000 6:53:05 PM
Kuligan
One of my best friends was killed in a logging accident 18 years ago. And nearly every one of my friends who is a logger has had multiple close calls.
247. marshame - 8/7/2000 9:11:57 PM
The Learning Channel recently aired a show on the most dangerous job in the world and it was the position of Alaskan King Crab catcher. Evidently, something like 30% of the men fishing for these crabs in the Bering Sea wind up dead, the rest are injured, and only one or two make it through the three months without any type of injury.
248. wonkers2 - 8/7/2000 11:07:45 PM
Commercial fisherman is the most dangerous occupation. What about oil drilling? Or Sandhogging? Or steel construction work on skyscrapers? Or professional football, for injuries, if not deaths. Or bull riding?
249. rubberducky - 8/8/2000 8:52:38 AM
Re: Message # 238, CalGal.
"2. Going back to school would only improve my options if it were a very, very good school."
what do you base this on? it doesn't ring true to me. unless you expect to go back to school and some out as some sort of specialist which, in our profession, isn't something that's obtained via a diploma anyway. (excluding for the moment a specific technology course like a 4-week SQL class or MS certification - which is another subject.)
another diploma from a decent school along with the skills you already have would, imo, lend itself to a fairly good starting pay - this is, of course, assuming you go with something even remotely close to what you currently do.
250. DocBrown - 8/8/2000 9:37:57 AM
Obviously this does not fit the statistics that Kuligin provided. Nevertheless . . .
I believe that eight U.S. Presidents have died in office, out of a population of 42. Assuming you consider the President to be "on the job" at all times, that marks the Presidency as a very dangerous job. It has killed 19% of the people who tried to do it.
251. KuligintheHooligan - 8/8/2000 9:52:54 AM
Doc, a very interesting take! Four most certainly were killed expressly because they were presidents; the other four just died of "natural" causes, right? In any event, even 4 out of 42 is a high mortality rate.
wonkers got #1 correct: fishermen.
#3 was airline pilots, which actually seemed odd to me.
If you want to know the top ten, here they are:
1 -fishers
2 - timber cutters
3 - airline pilots
4 - structural metal workers
5 - extractive occupations
6 - water transportation occupations
7 - construction laborers
8 - taxicab drivers
9 - roofers
10 -truckdrivers
These were per 100,000 workers.
252. KuligintheHooligan - 8/8/2000 9:56:07 AM
The top five in terms of actual number of deaths are:
1 -truckdrivers
2 - farm occupations (#1 cause is tractor related)
3 -sales occupations (#1 cause of death here is homicide)
4 - construction laborers (#1 cause is falls)
5 - laborers except construction (#1 cause falling objects)
Interestingly, electricians were #10 with nearly 100 of them dying of electrocution in the year the stats were taken.
253. CalGal - 8/8/2000 10:24:39 AM
Harrison died because he caught pneumonia during the inauguration, and FDR died clearly because of the strain of WWII. So I'd count those two as work-related.
Harding and Taylor could be ruled out of the count, though.
254. Wombat - 8/8/2000 10:51:33 AM
Zachary Taylor died of acute gastroenteritis after consuming cherries and iced milk at a day-long July 4 ceremony at the Washington Monument.
Warren Harding's heart condition was exacerbated by the strains of office (and extramarital sex?), but he died as a result of his reliance on medical quakery.
255. CalGal - 8/8/2000 10:52:59 AM
I always thought it was cherries and lemonade, but I do remember the "iced" part. Still, I think of that as a dietary choice, not work-related. (g)
256. rubberducky - 8/8/2000 10:54:54 AM
i can see the papers now:
"Say No to Baked Beans! Gas Kills!"
257. CalGal - 8/8/2000 11:15:56 AM
Ducky,
it doesn't ring true to me.
The only thing that would assist me from an educational standpoint would be an MBA, and it would have to be from a good school. Were I to go to just any school, it could actually hurt me.
I'm not looking for good starting pay. I have that already. What would help me is credentials--and at my level, they'd have to be kick ass.
I don't have to have better credentials to advance. But if I don't get them, advancement will be a matter of luck and opportunity. I would rather increase my chances.
258. iiibbb - 8/8/2000 3:18:21 PM
Well... I just am starting a PhD in hopes that it will improve my credentials. I spent 2 years looking for a job to lead out of the dead-end I was in... and despite the fact that I have gained quite a variety of experience I wasn't competing with the fresh PhD's out there....
...as one of my former committee members put it put it... they want you to have that union card... you may be perfectly talented and qualified, but the clout that comes with certain credentials can not be underestimated.
I hope I'm doing the right thing... I've always been a little nervous about taking this step, and still have some trepidation. That is why I went into the real world for few years first.
I finally decided that it's better to take the risk, and push the limits of my potential... than to get stuck somewhere.
259. marquatz - 8/8/2000 4:13:16 PM
This page is fun to read. What is a good "starting salary" for what age?
260. CalGal - 8/8/2000 5:10:09 PM
Marquatz,
Welcome!
The standard that is generally mentioned is $1000/year of life. However, this figure has been around for a long time, and at this point I think that should be used for the working class--not just blue collar, but non-college graduate level jobs (e.g., service management).
Once you move into many professional fields, I think most people would view $1500-2000/year of life as a good initial goal, and track their advancement by how quickly they left that behind. It is not unusual for professionals to be making 3 or 4K per year of life and to consider that nothing particularly special.
Public sector jobs and teaching--or any job with a fixed pay scale--are a different thing altogether; I'm not sure how they assess their salary advancement.
261. Greystoke - 8/8/2000 6:58:06 PM
"I believe that eight U.S. Presidents have died in office, out of a population of 42."
And 29 of the other 34 died after serving as President. Coincidence? I think not.
If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve.
Its a death sentence.
262. joezan - 8/8/2000 7:59:24 PM
Egads, Grey!
I never thought of it that way.
...has anyone informed Al Gore of this?
263. Greystoke - 8/8/2000 8:06:56 PM
Joe
Al Gore is a brave man.
He almost won the Viet Nam War, you know.
264. Greystoke - 8/8/2000 8:10:54 PM
Timeline:
That was after Al and Tipper were the inspiration for "Love Story", but before Al invented the Internet.
265. Indiana Jones - 8/8/2000 9:00:51 PM
Fisherman is the most dangerous occupation.
That Donato fellow just seems more heroic all the time.
266. DanDillon - 8/8/2000 11:22:50 PM
The standard that is generally mentioned [for a salary scale] is $1000/year of life. However, this figure has been around for a long time, and at this point I think that should be used for the working class--not just blue collar, but non-college graduate level jobs (e.g., service management).
I'm right on target. Good to know that a master's degree and 6 years experience has allowed me to rise up to the dizzying hieghts of "working class/non-college graduate level jobs." One more year. One more year.
I hope to be at the $1500-2000/year of life mark a few years after I ditch the classroom for greener pastures. Hell, maybe one day I'll even be able to outearn a non-English speaking, dark-skinned, mentally retarded, wheelchair-bound female.
267. joezan - 8/8/2000 11:27:19 PM
Hey, you have my admiration for sticking it out so long.
268. CalGal - 8/8/2000 11:59:03 PM
Dan, just think how much fun awaits you. You can last another year.
Are you starting to research your next move, or do you already know what you want to do?
iiibbb,
It has always seemed to me that doctorates were one thing that work experience couldn't substitute for. Have you determined that the investment in time and money is worth it?
269. iiibbb - 8/9/2000 12:36:25 AM
More to life than just money Cal...
It basically comes more down to doing what I like to do, and what I feel in some ways compelled to do. I've not sat down and figured out whether the investment is necessarily in the Black or not, in fact I'm sure I'm taking a bit of a hit finacially... but the 4 years out in the real world I was saving nearly 25% for retirement... and got an earlier start on that than most people my age.
Who knows if this will work out or not. The decsion is as much a gut decision as an informed one. I figure I'll know for sure if it was the right thing to do by next year... and if I back out of after that, then I won't have lost too much time I don't suppose.
Now if I let it get drawn out into one of these 5 yr deals... then I'm really hurting myself.
It has always seemed to me that doctorates were one thing that work experience couldn't substitute for.
Well... a lot of times they are looking for a doctorate where they don't really need one... but it's a perception thing more than a true need for that kind of specialization and expertise.
270. CalGal - 8/9/2000 12:55:49 AM
Well, I'll accept your word for the bit about life and money--but in this case you said you were going back to school for your credentials, which implies that you want to be more highly regarded--which generally means you want more money.
And generally, what bosses "perceive" they need is what they "really" need. Dreadful, isn't it?
271. iiibbb - 8/9/2000 1:10:02 AM
No... I want the credentials so I can do more stimulating work, and gain some autonomy... more money is a side effect, but not the primary consideration.
As far as what they percieve they need and what they actually need... probably in some cases that's true... but when in the job description they say they want someone with a masters degree and 2 years experience or a PhD... and they always take the PhD... that's one incongruity. The second is when there is a project where the goals are as easily accomplished by someone without a PhD.
My old boss used to rag on one of her contemporaries because he'd hired a PhD, and she'd hired me to do much the same work. So why did her contemporary hire the PhD... who knows, but he certainly didn't do the work of one.
272. CalGal - 8/9/2000 1:27:20 AM
Well, my question about the time and energy of school is still out there. In this case, are you sure that the autonomy will be worth the investment you put into it?
I'm just curious, not second guessing you. I know a lot of people who go back to school thinking it will help them, and in many cases they stay in the same job after they finish school--but they are still glad they went to school. I've always been puzzled by this, given that the reason they went to school was to help their career. (It goes without saying that I also know people who have attended school and used their degree to great benefit, but they don't puzzle me.)
So I was asking if on a pure assessment of time and investment, you thought it was worth it. How much time will it take to get the PhD, how much money--and how much money lost while attending school? And what do you expect to gain in autonomy and stimulation? Is there a way to find a job with more autonomy that doesn't require a PhD?
But whether your decision is validated by a CBA, it seems that you are very aware of your career options, and are taking steps to give yourself more potential.
And it's pretty normal for an employer to hire the more qualified individual for any job. Given a choice between a MS and a PhD, it will be the odd employer who wouldn't opt for the doctorate.
273. Slackjaw - 8/9/2000 1:51:28 AM
And yet there is something to one being overqualified for some jobs...it means one is looking in a place where one's credentials aren't normally found. Seems natural for the people there to say, hell, this dud's peers don't think enough of him for him to find work in his own field; what should I infer about him?
iiibbb, what's your Ph.D. in?
274. Stumbo - 8/9/2000 2:25:28 AM
"extractive occupations" = dentistry?
275. DanDillon - 8/9/2000 8:56:19 AM
First things first: mea culpa for the subject/verb disagreement in my last post. The corrected version reads, "Good to know that a master's degree and 6 years experience have allowed me..."
On to what really matters: I have researched jobs in marketing/advertising, public & media relations, and publishing (this last a field I have some experience in). My wife works for an investment firm and truly loves her job. Not only because that's her cup o' tea but also because the environment she works in has been carefully and meticulously crafted by decent human beings who have a strong desire to make work as pleasant and as productive as possible. The company she works for, of course, has a great deal to do with this and makes every effort to keep their employees long-term, based on the credo that it makes more economic sense to hire one person and keep them aboard than it does to hire and rehire and rehire (and retrain and retrain and retrain).
The reason I mention my wife's place of employment is that there are several positions there I never would have imagined even existed at an investment firm: mostly communications-related jobs, ones that definitely appeal. If I were to quit teaching tomorrow and get a job in the work-a-day world I so long avoided, my salary would probably increase by a factor of 1.5.
I'm still looking very actively at all the possibilities out there, and by no means do intend to head straight for my wife's company at the end of this school year. I mean hell, I see enough of her at home.
276. Marquatz - 8/9/2000 9:02:53 AM
It is hard to find a job that pays $4000 X age and gives you time to leave messages here.
277. iiibbb - 8/9/2000 9:04:03 AM
Slack:
My specialty is forest soils and hydrology. My project will be examining the effects of intensive management and disturbance on long term productivity and carbon sequestration. These issues have some important implications to maintaining long-term site quality and using carbon carbon credits as a way to account for both countries' and industry's responsibility toward pollution and global warming. No one really has a good idea whether intensively managed forests act as a net sink or net source for carbon.
Cal:
I'm in an applied science so it won't cost me anything except time and reduced income. There are some degrees that if you can't manage funding, why even go to school. I am getting paid to do it not far below the hourly rate I was getting in my job. However, I'm limited to doing half the hours, so it is effectively a pretty big pay cut.
The lack of autonomy was precisely the problem, at least where I was looking. The jobs I'd been applying to would have taken me in that direction, but there was a definite bias to hire an actual PhD rather than a masters with experience.
I do have a few things I could be taking while I'm here that would really round me out nicely.
Then there are some more compelling issues for me. I'm interested in how to manage forests in a way that maintains site quality and soil fertility. I am interested in the roles forests play in things like water quality. There are some very difficult problems to solve in these areas.
The varied and usually conflicting demands our society has placed on forests are often made without recognizing their personal role in that chain.
278. DanDillon - 8/9/2000 9:08:18 AM
CG,
Do you think your bias toward acquiring a PhD comes from your background in the humanities? Clearly, a doctorate in some language, social science, or, god forbid, English would put you in a lower salary range if not entirely out of a job.
279. Marquatz - 8/9/2000 9:11:19 AM
Some get a doctorate cause its just what they want to do. More to life than the buck. Ask any dying person.
280. DanDillon - 8/9/2000 9:17:32 AM
Marquatz,
I understand that. In fact, all human endeavour is motivated by self-interest and self-preservation. I am simply attempting to keep the discussion on a certain rail, though there are many to ride on.
Btw, welcome to The Mote.
281. CalGal - 8/9/2000 9:24:36 AM
Slack, iii, Dan,
My statement was entirely too broad; after all, I work in an industry that damn near doesn't care about degrees at all. I was thinking specifically of iiibbb's description--the employer who asked for one of two graduate degrees. All things being equal, I was thinking, the employer would go for the more advanced degree--given that the job was the sort in which you specified degrees. Take that requirement out of the equation, and I wouldn't have made the same statement. Based on iii's description, degrees matter. Once that is the case, then I would think it odd for an employer not to go with the higher degree.
I completely agree that depending on the job, a PhD could be hurt by appearing to be vastly overqualified.
Dan,
I'm not sure I have a bias for or against PhDs. My degree is in English, but I have no knowledge of the academic world at all, so I wasn't aware that a PhD meant a lower income in some fields.
Marquatz,
Actually, I'd say there's not a whole lot of correlation between income and time to post. To the extent that there is any at all, it probably tilts towards higher income.
282. rubberducky - 8/9/2000 10:04:01 AM
ok, so, here's my problem:
i'm rapidly coming up on my anniversary at the consulting company i work for. well the contract states that after 6 months, the client can offer me a full time position - indeed it's a reason i went into consulting, to shop around as it were for a company to spend a couple years at while they pay for my Master's.
so, the dilemma. i was asked yesterday by the manager if i would consider an offer from the Client for a full time position. i told him they may make an offer and i would consider it.
so, the pros of taking the job are:
283. rubberducky - 8/9/2000 10:04:50 AM
additional:
i am gonna wait and see what, if any, raise i do get from the consulting firm after the 6 month anniversary rolls around later in the month.
assuming i get the better benefits & 10% more money from the Client, do i then go to the consulting company and make that known and allow them to counter offer? is that bad form?
284. rubberducky - 8/9/2000 10:08:59 AM
by the by, i consider "better beneifts" as (well, the ones i care about):
285. PelleNilsson - 8/9/2000 3:00:09 PM
iiibbb
If you can wiggle a travel stipend at some point why not come to Sweden? The reason I say that is that we have forests that have been under management for well over a century. There are those that were primeval but came under management in the 1870-80 period when demand for forestry products took off, and there are others that have always been under management because they are the result of re-planting of de-forested areas in the same time frame or a little later. There are also forests which have been under management but no longer are because they are now nature reserves. Finally there are those few that has never been under management. When I look out the window I can see such a one in the distance.
I think Swedish forestry research holds up well in international comparisons so it wouldn't be a waste of time.
When you say that no one knows if managed forests are a sink or source of carbon dioxide, that really rocks the boat as far as energy policy is concerned. The accepted wisdom among politicians is that if you burn a tree and plant another the environmental effect is zero. I would appreciate if you could develop this line of thought, perhaps in the Slow Thread.
286. Marquatz - 8/9/2000 3:18:36 PM
It appears then CalGal that i am around well-to-dos. My current condition is not so promising. Glad there are no dues here.
287. Marquatz - 8/9/2000 3:22:00 PM
Gal. What do you do. You seem to know a lot about the general area of employment.
288. iiibbb - 8/9/2000 3:22:59 PM
I was oversimplifying Pelle... I don't want to bore people too much
It's pretty well known that forests in Finland and Sweden are probably acting as carbon sinks (they are certainly anticipating some potential revenue by selling carbon credits in the future scheme). It's because of the cold climate and your soils are quite different there as well. I would also imagine rotation ages are a bit longer there. Water, air, temperature, cover-types, and specific management practices all control carbon sequestration. Any one of which can wind up influencing carbon more than the others do.
On my sites in the coastal plain of the SE United States, the water table seems to be a very controlling influence. As a result our management practices tend to seek to optimize this condition for tree growth by bedding (and formally drainage). The thing about bedding is that it enhances organic matter decomposition by aerating the soil and improving microsite drainage, but it may retard decomposition by incorporating surface carbon. Another thing to consider, is how does the dramatically enhanced productivity of the trees on the site affect carbon fixation.
289. iiibbb - 8/9/2000 3:23:05 PM
Swedes and Finns have well renowned practices in forest management, and there is a lot to learn from them. The project I am working on actually has quite a few collaborators from those countries, and they are quite interested in the research my project has been generating in the 10 years prior to my arrival. Industry is very interested in our project because we've been pretty careful about maintaining an operational scale which directly comparable to current industry practices. Many studies, which have attempted to address these issues in the past, were too esoteric to mean anything, or not at a large enough scale to give meaningful results.
I don't know if I will be so fortunate as to make any progress on some kind of mechanistic model for carbon sequestration in soils... I fear I may only lay a foundation for that kind of work... but that's where I'd really like my research to direct itself.
P.S.
I'd love to visit Sweeden or Finland one of these days... (my grandmother is a Finn)
290. iiibbb - 8/9/2000 3:28:08 PM
BTW... missed the part about slow thread... just tell me if you post a reply there
291. glendajean - 8/9/2000 3:59:11 PM
A few years ago, I decided that I wanted to change careers and become a residential garden designer.
I've taken some courses, read a lot, gardened a lot, put in gardens for a number of people, but have never taken the plunge.
This year, I decided to get more serious about it. I sent out an e-mail to 8 professional landscape designers asking their advice about how to proceed. One of them was a landscape architecture professor who has been quite helpful. He got me in an intensive summer l.a. graphics workshop. I will probably audit a course from him in plant design this fall.
I strongly pondered going back to school in landscape architecture. I've decided against that. An LA degree would take years and would be overkill for the kind of work that I am interested in. I will continue to take selective courses in this area.
My goal is to be doing this work fulltime in 5 years. I'll be 50 then. This weekend, I start with my first paying customer. It's a lovely Georgian style brick house with a large yard in an old neighborhood.
292. PelleNilsson - 8/9/2000 4:38:13 PM
glenda
To eventually be able to work with and make a living out of something that started out as a hobby must be very rewarding.
293. glendajean - 8/9/2000 4:42:20 PM
Pelle -- I'll find out if I can make a living at it. These are just first steps.
294. iiibbb - 8/9/2000 5:11:20 PM
Wow...
...maybe I can be a professional race car driver :)
295. iiibbb - 8/9/2000 5:12:32 PM
One of the funnier things I ever hear Paula Poundstone say...
"Do you know why people are always asking little kids what they want to be when the grow up? Do you really think it's because they care? It's because they're looking for ideas!"
296. rubberducky - 8/10/2000 9:31:29 AM
Update:
have an interview with the Client on Monday.
Cal - no input?
297. CalGal - 8/10/2000 9:38:25 AM
Ducky,
Yes, input. I'm sorry it's not sooner, but I was tied up yesterday getting out of Dodge--er, Ohio.
Coming up.
298. CalGal - 8/10/2000 9:51:15 AM
Okay, in a bullet list as the thoughts occur to me, rather than organized presentation:
299. CalGal - 8/10/2000 10:09:31 AM
300. CalGal - 8/10/2000 10:38:00 AM
The only way to think of benefits is as cash--and not what they cost the company, but what it would cost for you to replace them adequately. And when you think of it as cash, realize that everytime you make a decision based on benefits, you are making a decision about cash that won't increase.
Ignore benefits. They skew your thinking, and besides, as a reformed Republican, you don't want to be dependent emotionally on subsidies, do you?
Obviously, my values and prejudices about benefits and their damage to employment thinking are strewed in and about this rant. But that's just for effect. Still, the fundamentals of my objection are sound. Think of it as untaxed cash you can't count on. If you still think it's worth it, I will rag you mercilessly, but that's just cause I'm a pain in the ass.
301. CalGal - 8/10/2000 10:48:18 AM
What I would recommend: Go to the interview, look vaguely interested in a job, say that you couldn't consider it for less than (+35%).
Yes, that's higher than I just said, but I forgot something. The single biggest reason your manager might want to hire you (apart from your charm and good looks) is that he's paying a huge premium for your services. Chances are your company is billing you out for $80-100/hour. He might just be looking for a cheaper way to get you. Nothing wrong with this, but you want to make sure that he doesn't get you for too cheap. Plus, if he doesn't flinch, that means that he also likes you for your ability to perform.
If he does flinch, or offers a piddling increase--and please, believe me, 10% must be considered utterly unacceptable. (I'm being stern here)--then my recommendation is to smile and say no. Stick with your original plan of using consulting to "shop"--and also, (still being stern) ask your boss to start thinking about putting you in a new contract. This will also impress your boss, which is a good thing. Also, in your talk with your boss, mention that you have been told about the great opportunities out there for independents and all the money that can be made. Ask if the company has room for hourly employees (many of them do), and look vaguely interested if he says yes, and crease your brow if he says no, as if you are weighing it internally. This will show him that he's got to step up the game with you.
If the client accepts the 35% without flinching, then I would go back to your boss and talk about your long-term interest in consulting versus this attractive offer. Decent chance he'll meet it. If he doesn't meet it, take the job offer. You can go back to contracting later, with a much higher base. If he does meet it, or comes in that area, then I would recommend you give serious thought to sticking with the consulting company.
302. CalGal - 8/10/2000 10:49:22 AM
Now, suppose that the client flinches at anything over 10% and you only get a 10% or less raise at your company. Do not, I beg of you, go into despair and think that you're not worth it. Clearly you are good, or the client wouldn't want to hire you. And don't decide that I'm skewed in my weird notions on salaries. I'm not, I promise. It just means that you have two companies that have sufficient good people willing to work for peanuts that they can reject those who want a cocktail to go with their snack. This means you have to hunt around more--and that means, I feel, that your best bet is to stay with your current employer.
It occurs to me that I have been awfully far-ranging in advice towards someone who is probably thinking, Jesus, chick, cut to the chase!
So--I think your original assessment of the client offer displays considerations that differ from your stated primary priorities (money and career). I think the only reason to go to the client, based on your priorities, is if they offered you a lot more money that your current company won't meet. 10% is far too low a number to give up on the advantages of consulting, based on your stated priorities.
If you decide that comfort and people you know is more important and that you really aren't emotionally suited for contracting--you want a secure job with a good company--then you need to go in with an entirely different set of considerations, and I can write more on that if you're interested, but right now I have to get to the gym and work.
303. JB - 8/10/2000 5:21:05 PM
Calgal, I thought that was a really solid howto. I just started a new job (for a 10% salary increase :) ) and I thought about all that stuff, but not nearly as concisely as you put it. In my case, the job itself makes up for the small pay increase (the field is more in line with what I want--graphics programming as opposed to financials),but the next time I change jobs, I'll be thinking about your plan. Neet.
304. CalGal - 8/10/2000 5:51:56 PM
JB,
Why, thanks! Are you new? Welcome!
It sounds like you were taking a move to get into a new area of work. If so, 10% is excellent. You get the resume add-on you need and more money. Hard to beat.
305. CalGal - 8/10/2000 5:52:43 PM
GJ,
That is extremely exciting news! I'm always envious of those who can turn their avocation into their occupation. Excellent notion, to write to the experts--and the fact that he was willing to get you into the program is proof that you must know your stuff. What did you think of the course?
I realize that at this point in time, customers and references are occupying your mind more than running the business aspects, but the moment you start to get self-employment income there are some tax advantages. And it's not too early to start thinking about your costs and billing rate. If you get too many customers used to a rate you charged just because you were eager to get references you'll find it harder to set your rates to the level they should be.
Are you reading books on small businesses?
306. arkymalarky - 8/10/2000 11:34:34 PM
I didn't know whether to post this here or in the Cafe, but I went to a workshop at the new place and the people were really nice and the situation looks very good. It turns out Bob and I will hardly see eachother during the day, but we'll have the same schedule, whereas our schedules were going to be very different if I'd stayed at my current school.
On the other hand, word is spreading to my kids from my school, and I'm having a pool party for them next week. They're not happy, but I think they understand why I'm making the move. I'm very depressed about leaving them. My newspaper editor wondered why I couldn't wait one more year, and she told me that another student had asked her who was going to tell them "chop chop!" when I'm gone (one of my silly little routine sayings they're so familiar with).
It sounds like several Moties are going through job changes. Must be the economy. I hope everyone ends up in the situation they're happiest with.
307. rubberducky - 8/11/2000 12:46:14 PM
CG:
thanks for responding. i've been thinking about what you said, and here's my thoughts.
[Shopping around is] not a bad thing, mind you, but it is not the use you originally intended.
agreed. "shopping" was what i wanted to do. i wonder now what good it would do now that i've found a good company. so, i see the point.
What do you want a Masters for?
a couple reasons. (1) i can count the ppl in my family that have them, so it has always been something that is (2) a goal that i have. i even set a timeline. i want to be done with the Master's program by the time i am 30.
Liking co-workers and bosses and the work is a nice to have, obviously, but there are many places out there that have interesting work and decent co-workers/management. If it turns out that you are selling yourself short economically, this is something to keep in mind.
yes, but what about the argument that finding a job that (a) you enjoy and (b) makes you not dread going to work - both of which are true in my case - is more important? i realize i could probably come back to the Client should i choose to do so at some point down the line, but it is very tempting to join when i see people that i'd work with that i don't want to strangle
10 percent is piddling.
i understand that from your POV, but, from mine out in the middle of OH, it isn't that bad. 25% puts my around 80K which i think is probably more than what i'm worth at this stage of my career.
308. rubberducky - 8/11/2000 12:46:41 PM
You mention that you didn't want to join a corporation because of the mentality. News flash, toots: consulting companies are corporations, and the politics in consulting companies are quite often horrendous.
yes, i agree, but what i meant was that i don't see any of the corporate mentality as i've seen my boss about a half dozen times since i started here -about once a month. so, for me, that's a HUGE plus.
Bottom line--you should never, ever take a job based on benefits. Companies can change them at any time, and they owe you nothing.
well, then, if they changed in a relatively substantial way, and i took the job for them, then i'd leave. but, fact of the matter is, the DO have value. to just cast that aside is not looking at the whole picture. it is money in my pocket when it comes to PTO, 401k matching, and health insurance.
And when you think of it as cash, realize that every time you make a decision based on benefits, you are making a decision about cash that won't increase.
Not true. Bennies do go up as well as down. i get, as an example, X amount of days PTO for every 6 months i am at the Consulting Company. so, that is increasing the "cash"
He might just be looking for a cheaper way to get you.
of course this may be true. let me give you more background. the project that i'm on has one (1) FTE on staff. the rest are consultants or interns. that employee told me that the Client is looking to augment the staff by converting consultants ... so, what if it isn't money? i would have just signed my own "no thank you" letter.
309. rubberducky - 8/11/2000 12:46:56 PM
Ask if the company has room for hourly employees (many of them do), and look vaguely interested if he says yes, and crease your brow if he says no, as if you are weighing it internally. This will show him that he's got to step up the game with you.
well, i asked this all on the front end. they do have hourly workers, but do not like to deal with them. they, obviously, prefer to have the consultants on staff.
If the client accepts the 35% without flinching...
that would be just unheard of, imo. what if they counter offer? and want a decision? how do i say i need to weigh the options?
Now, suppose that the client flinches at anything over 10% and you only get a 10% or less raise at your company.
here's the timeline- i meet with the HR person on Monday and no money will be discussed i can say with near perfect certainty. Wed i meet with my boss at the consulting company. that is when i should find out the amount of the raise, if any. then, i assume, i'll have the "real" meeting with my manager here at the Client
10% is far too low a number to give up on the advantages of consulting, based on your stated priorities.
and that is very good advice. something i really hadn't thought of. thanks!
310. CalGal - 8/11/2000 1:17:08 PM
Arky,
Given the sadness you're going to feel at leaving, I can only think how nice it is that the new job seems to be working out as you planned. I know you'll miss your kids. Are you going to have a party?
311. CalGal - 8/11/2000 1:22:43 PM
Ducky,
Okay, on that masters, let's put it aside for the moment.
Except one thing, just for an amusing comparison--I am the only person in my family of origin with a college degree. In my extended family of about 50 people on both sides, only 6 people have a college degree, no graduate degrees. It's not really a blue-collar family, though--almost everyone in my non-degreed extended family is white collar--sales people, bank managers, etc.
So your comment about counting the people in your family with grad degrees struck me as funny.
312. rubberducky - 8/11/2000 1:30:13 PM
CG
haha, well, i had to look far and wide for people in my family with a Master's, this is true - except for my mother's brother - the one i'm "most like". and yes, the family thinks he's odd too.
but, as for my plans wrt a Master's i want one that has to do with Psychology as it interests me. so, yes, i'm looking at undergrad classes first! hope i can get it all in by the time i hit 30! also, i think some understanding of the human mind will aide me in my career, but only in general terms. i see myself in management when i get old (you know, 35ish - LOL)
313. CalGal - 8/11/2000 1:38:39 PM
i wonder now what good it would do now that i've found a good company. so, i see the point.
If you see my point as being you're not really shopping around if you buy the first thing you see, then you're right. (g)
yes, but what about the argument that finding a job that (a) you enjoy and (b) makes you not dread going to work - both of which are true in my case - is more important?
It is possible that you're not really cut out to be a consultant. I say this because most contract/consultants sort don't ever have the problem of dreading going to work. We generally like work, and take the fact that not all contracts are created equal as part of the territory. So if those are your priorities, think more about whether or not you want to zip around from job to job. There's no harm if you don't like it, you know. I'm thinking I should find JJ and Adam to pitch in on this, too.
i understand that from your POV, but, from mine out in the middle of OH, it isn't that bad. 25% puts my around 80K which i think is probably more than what i'm worth at this stage of my career.
Percentages aren't regional, really. Besides, your client manager doesn't know how much you make, does he? (If he does, shame on you!)
And $80K is about right for what you do. It's not more than you're worth.
but what i meant was that i don't see any of the corporate mentality as i've seen my boss about a half dozen times since i started here - about once a month. so, for me, that's a HUGE plus.
The politics are different. For example, I know a contracting company that stopped paying its staff overtime, and moved to a bonus plan. Departments get reorged and you get new managers. Time sheet hassles change. Your manager becomes unpopular and gets all the lousy clients with old technology. Stuff like that.
314. Marquatz - 8/11/2000 2:20:34 PM
80k is a fine salary for someone in their 20's. Good for u. I do hope messages on this topic are truthful.
315. CalGal - 8/11/2000 2:49:52 PM
I have a response on bennies, but it is sitting on another computer right now--I'm switching between three computers and right now I'm on hold on a support call, so I'll type in my other comments.
vthat would be just unheard of, imo. what if they counter offer? and want a decision? how do i say i need to weigh the options?
I don't see why it would be unheard of. He doesn't know how much you make now, so it just makes it clear to him that you value yourself highly.
It's almost certainly less than he's paying for you now, since I can't see how your company could be billing you out for much less than $65-70/hour and be making a profit. (rule of thumb: $50/hour = $100K). If he is only paying 50 or 55 an hour, then he may balk at 80, but he will be less likely to lowball.
He will probably negotiate, but that's fine.
I would enter the interview with a little set speech: "I've enjoyed working here, I'm not really sure I want to give up consulting. I do like the project so I'm willing to entertain an offer. My primary short-term consideration will be salary, because I am well-compensated at [current employer]. If we are in the right ballpark from that perspective, then I need to get a better feel for my career options if I stay. What technical challenges will I be dealing with in a few years?"
Make it clear that you won't be saying yay/nay in the interview, but that you are willing to consider a good offer as an alternative to your current consulting path.
316. rubberducky - 8/14/2000 8:12:45 AM
CG:
question: do i put anything for "salary expected" on the employment application or leave it blank?
317. CalGal - 8/14/2000 8:48:48 AM
Leave it blank.
318. bubbaette - 8/14/2000 9:43:51 AM
or you could answer "yes".
319. rubberducky - 8/14/2000 9:46:22 AM
Haw!
320. Wombat - 8/14/2000 11:34:55 AM
Is there anyone here who has worked as a subcontractor or PSC with the Federal Government? If so, what is the difference between the two in terms of rights, obligations, pay and benefits? Thanks in advance!
321. CalGal - 8/14/2000 1:55:57 PM
Wombat,
I have happily not worked for da Feds before, but just for my own edification could you give me a frinstance?
Bubba,
Took me four tries to get that. I agree with Ducky: Haw!
322. theDiva - 8/14/2000 2:01:33 PM
Wombat
Are you bidding on a job, or are you working for a company that's already won the contract?
323. Wombat - 8/14/2000 2:09:26 PM
Diva:
There is a possibility of me hooking up with a Federal agency in one or the other of those capacities, and I am curious to find out what the differences are between the two.
324. theDiva - 8/14/2000 2:15:21 PM
hm.
Mind you, my knowledge of Beltway Bandit-ism is over 7 years old, so you might want to check further on this.
But as I recall, there are instances where the Fed requires that certain types of jobs be paid at a certain rate. So for example, a glazier who normally pays his assistant $8/hour will have to pay that same assistant $12/hour if they are working on a federal job.
Then there are instances where a company bids a job and includes the hourly rate for its workers as part of the package. The company then must pay that rate or face penalties.
Benefits generally don't enter into these equations, as I recall. By that I mean there are no stipulations as with the wages.
This prolly didn't help a bit, did it?
325. Wombat - 8/14/2000 2:51:26 PM
Diva:
Not really, but thanks anyway.
326. theDiva - 8/14/2000 2:52:10 PM
oh well, guess it's the thought that counts.
(skulks away shamefacedly)
327. Wombat - 8/14/2000 3:51:37 PM
Diva:
It is, and I appreciate it (sez cuddly Wombat). Now stop skulking!
328. CalGal - 8/14/2000 3:53:45 PM
Wombat,
What sort of "rights and obligations" would a contractor have?
329. Wombat - 8/14/2000 4:46:35 PM
Cal:
Right now, I am an employee of a consulting working on a government contract. As an individual subcontractor or private service contractor, I assume that there are differences in how the government deals with me and vice versa. I don't know what they are.
330. rubberducky - 8/14/2000 4:51:24 PM
Cal:
interview went fine. he wanted to discuss money, but i said i was still doing research on what the market is here in Columbus ...
so, he said that they should have an offer for me on Wed or so.
also, your speech about being happy consulting, but just seeing what the Client would offer seemed to go over well too. thanks!
331. CalGal - 8/14/2000 5:55:47 PM
Ducky,
Hey, that sounds great. It's always good practice to go on interviews.
Wombat,
I'm assuming you know about the basic differences between employment and contracting and are just looking for the Fed deltas?
332. arkymalarky - 8/16/2000 8:31:18 AM
AR news headlines yesterday:
Statewide shortage of 150 teachers. The state is allowing non-certified people to fill the positions, and they can get their certifications "later." They already have a DRP (don't know what it stands for) which allows certified teachers to teach in areas which are not on their certificates as long as they get their certification within two years. The way around offering a required course without a certified teacher is to float it in two year intervals as long as possible and hope they find someone eventually. I'm on a DRP for speech, though I only need one more class to be qualified to teach it. I'll take it in the spring or summer and they'll pay.
The school I'm going into lost eleven people due to higher salaries elsewhere. Many AR teachers are going to TX for that reason, and my former principal said TX schools are paying them 3-5000$ bonuses (shows how cheap AR teachers come) to sign on in their systems. Most schools in the area are siphoning off teachers from neighboring districts as best they can (just like what happened to me) and using the DRP for a lot of areas.
After 19 years this is the first I've ever seen a situation like this, and it will be interesting to see how AR handles it, considering their push of the new statewide benchmark tests, which are suppposed to "count" after this year. Classes are filled to brimming right now with lower-level students who will be impossible to prepare without a lot of teacher time and individual instruction. Their only choices will be to back off the standards--they've been trying to put teachers and schools in the hot seat over how their students score on these tests and now they can't back up their threats--or raise salaries and numbers of teachers hired (iow they can't try to save money by raising teacher salaries and getting by with fewer, overworked, overloaded teachers if they're going to take improving student performance seriously).
333. arkymalarky - 8/16/2000 8:34:45 AM
I love it, not so much for me personally, because my job priorities have not been typical (I've been offered a job in Mose's district that would probably mean a raise of $5000 or so and a much easier commute and turned down an interview for reasons I won't bore you with), but because AR has not, since Clinton left office, put education as a fiscal priority, though they've added a lot of requirements and new standards, and the chickens are finally coming home to roost. It's not that they're having difficulty finding well-qualified teachers any more--now they can't even get warm bodies to babysit the kids, much less teach them. The first item on the legislative agenda this session is raises. They're talking $3000. Hahahaha! I'm sure that will draw back in the techies who would otherwise be teaching math and computers.
334. arkymalarky - 8/16/2000 8:43:17 AM
Cal,
Message # 310
Thanks. Everyone at the new place is very nice, the kids I've met are nice and similar to mine, unassuming, friendly and easy-going. I like seeing how well Bob is liked there. The kids and teachers and parents really seem very fond of him. They're extremely disappointed about the calculus class. The other math teacher, who lives there, agreed to do it, but they specifically requested Bob on their petition and were not expecting to have to take a class at 7:00 in the morning in addition to their regular school day.
My pool party for my kids is at noon today. I said my final goodbyes to my colleagues at the old place, but it's less than 20 miles from the new one and we all shop in the same nearby town, so I'll see folks a lot. If you want to see people where I work, just hit the Wal-Mart 30 miles away on a Sat afternoon and it's like a town meeting.
335. arkymalarky - 8/16/2000 8:44:50 AM
PS on the teacher shortage--the same thing is happening in admin, and it will get worse because teachers are retiring in droves.
336. theDiva - 8/16/2000 8:48:03 AM
It's the same up here. We've had 8 vacancies in this division for months. The market is so tight, and the private sector pays so well that we simply cannot find qualified applicants.
337. PelleNilsson - 8/16/2000 8:52:21 AM
arky
I have a pretty good map of the US. Whereabouts in Arkansas are you? BTW I was almost fifty before I learned how the state's name is pronounced. Before then I assumed it was Ar + Kansas.
338. arkymalarky - 8/16/2000 8:54:54 AM
There are Americans who can't pronounce it. They pronounce the last syllable "sass."
I'm in the southwest quarter, fairly close to Hot Springs (but not close enough, imo).
339. PelleNilsson - 8/16/2000 9:07:04 AM
I see. Lewisville-Hope-Nashville area maybe? (Don't anwer if you don't want to, Im not prying). There is a lake there, at Ashdown. Natural or a dam?
340. PelleNilsson - 8/16/2000 9:08:06 AM
But a lady like you should live in Magnolia or El Dorado.
341. arkymalarky - 8/16/2000 9:19:25 AM
You've got it about right, but a bit too far south. Magnolia and El Dorado are worse than where I live for heat and humidity, but no one but an Arky could probably tell the difference (tho El Dorado's a nice town). Don't know about the lake, Ashdown's a ways from me. We have several really nice lakes within easy driving distance, though. Mostly they're dammed.
342. PelleNilsson - 8/16/2000 9:22:41 AM
arky
OK, enough of this digression. I see CalGal is on line.
343. arkymalarky - 8/16/2000 9:27:16 AM
Haha! I noticed that, too.
So...to get back into the topic,
What about your job, Joe? I thought you'd have posted on it by now.
344. CalGal - 8/16/2000 11:20:17 AM
Yes, I was wondering about stats on Joe, and I think Bubba mentioned she was called back on a second interview. Also, it's Wednesday for Ducky--any word?
345. rubberducky - 8/16/2000 11:24:04 AM
CG:
my boss from the consulting firm takes me to lunch today to go over the review. i should know if there is a raise or not (which, btw, i mention to the Client's HR person, so they are figuring a raise in on my salary for their offer).
and, supposedly, i'll have the Client's offer in hand today. somehow, i think it'll be tomorrow.
346. CalGal - 8/16/2000 11:32:00 AM
Ducky,
If you haven't already mentioned the offer and the discussion to him, be sure to. This is the time to get it out on the table--you have his full attention.
347. rubberducky - 8/16/2000 1:53:04 PM
CG
actually, i didn't see your post, but i did talk to her about the Client. i got very good reviews from the Client management - but, get this, the don't usually look at a raise until after a year. well, i let it be known what was going on and she was very reassuring that in some cases in which the work is of a superb caliber (*beam*), then adjustments can be made ... so she swore to let me know something by next week if not friday ... without knowing what the Client offered because the consulting firm doesn't want to appear to be bidding against its own customer - a position i can certainly understand.
still nothing from the Client yet. i suspect my guess of tomorrow at the earliest will pan out.
348. rubberducky - 8/16/2000 1:54:55 PM
oh, and i posted this before, but here is a good quiz for IT people.
one in which i learn that i am supposedly worth a little more than $98K. needless to say, i almost spit my water all over my keyboard.
349. CalGal - 8/16/2000 2:11:24 PM
Ducky--don't be surprised if it's Friday.
That's very good news about your manager and her willingness to react so quickly! You must be very good.
And yes, it doesn't surprise me that my assessment of your worth was only off on the low side by 18K. (g)
350. CalGal - 8/16/2000 2:12:09 PM
Of course, in my case I would get exactly 0, since I don't know any of those things.
351. CalGal - 8/17/2000 2:10:12 PM
Okay, I have a confession to make about the worst part of being a freelancer: cashflow.
Right now, due to a combination of outright fuckup on one agency's part, obcene administrivia on another agency's part, and a two week pay period on the third (the only one that hasn't screwed up), I have worked a total of 164 hours (or 20.5 days) without payment.
In other words, no money since the second week of July. Worse, I had been working short hours for the month before that, so my cushion money was low.
On top of that, I have put out $8K in credit card expenses to pay for three trips to Ohio.
It is odd to know that somewhere out in the ether is over 15K just waiting to show up on my doorstep--and yet not have any money to pay mortgage, credit cards, insurance or phone bills. I have already dug $5K into savings and just flat out refuse to pull out more. I'll take the hit on the mortgage, since I should get at least one check today or tomorrow and pay it by phone.
I mention this because I know that for a lot of people, this problem is why they would never be a freelancer. But when you consider how much more money is in it, I'm not sure that's the right answer. Organization and planning is a better approach.
Sigh.
Anyway, I am avoidant as all hell, and administrivial shit just makes me crazy. But I finally started taking action this week, and it occurred to me that my way of handling the administrivia company might be useful storytelling for folks here, so it comes up next.
352. CalGal - 8/17/2000 2:26:45 PM
I started at the Ohio contract on July 25. I faxed my first time sheet (for the 25-27) to the only payroll number I had--the sales office in Minnesota, where I had been told to send timesheets in lieu of any other information.
At that point I hadn't returned from Ohio yet, so I couldn't do my expenses. I returned from Ohio on August 1, and couldn't do my timesheet and expenses for that week until I got back to Ohio on August 7, the next Monday. At that time, I found an email in my contract account from the payroll administrator. He had sent it on Wednesday, August 2, five days after I had started. In it, he gave me the fax number for timesheets in Dayton, and told me to fax a copy of timesheet and expenses to that number by 11:00 Monday morning or I wouldn't be paid until the following week.
Of course, it was already well past 11:00 Monday morning by the time I received this, and I hadn't even done my expenses for the week before, since I hadn't been given the expense form until his email. I sighed--but what the hell, at least I would get paid for the three days from the week before. So I put the expenses together, and the time sheet, and left it for the client manager to sign. I didn't get it back from him for another two days, right before I left. I faxed it off to the number I had been given, and emailed the payroll administrator, telling him that I had sent the previous weeks timesheet to Minneapolis.
Heard back from him--no, that won't do. You won't get paid for that. Fax it here. So I faxed that to him, too--right before I got on the plane for home. This was Wednesday, August 9th.
353. CalGal - 8/17/2000 2:31:17 PM
I then heard from him on Thursday saying by the way, I haven't gotten your timesheet. I said that I faxed it. Well, it's not here, fax it again. I said, look. I worked 42 hours, will I be paid? Not until I get the timesheet.
I'm pissed. I'm also at another client here in CAlifornia, have to go home, find my packet of timesheet and expenses, fax it off again. I also send a note to the recruiter, Clark, in Minnesota, telling him that I haven't been paid, am putting in a fortune in expenses, and that I am VERY FUCKING CRANKY that he couldn't be bothered to send my timesheet on to Dayton (for that first week). I heard from him saying, "What timesheet?" and he instantly started looking for it. It was never found.
Heard from the payroll administrator, they haven't got my timesheet and expenses. I tell him to email me the damn number again, check my records, and son of a bitch if I don't have it written down wrong. I check the number I have written down and it's a fucking FAX MACHINE. ARGGGGGGGHHH.
So I send off the packet to the right number on Friday afternoon. It was sent well before 5 eastern time. I hear from the guy on Monday saying YAY, he has my time sheet! But he needs the originals in the expenses before he can reiumburse me, and have I taken the drug test yet? And I should get the payment in the next cycle, which is next Monday and the check before Friday (a week from this Friday, he meant).
Now, I had just spent the weekend in an agony of self-recrimination. I'd taken this job on a whim, thinking it'd be fun to work for a big company again, and to see how I managed business travel--if it was something I could do on an occasional basis. And here this whimsical notion was bankrupting me. So I was in no mood to fuck around.
354. CalGal - 8/17/2000 2:34:36 PM
I sent an email to the payroll administrator, the head of the client account, and the recruiter saying:
355. CalGal - 8/17/2000 2:45:32 PM
The phone call is me, the client manager, and the recruiter.
Key plot point: the recruiter makes a fair chunk of change off of me. I'm not sure what it is, but I imagine that it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4% of every hour they bill the client. I think they are billing me at $150-160/hour, so as you can see the recruiter very much wants me to be happy. The client account manager, on the other hand, sees me as "the help". Just one of many workers at a large account, and in three weeks I've already caused him a huge amount of aggravation due to my lost timesheets.
So he starts out by telling me that it was my fault it went to the wrong fax machines. I said, sorry. I think the first timesheet went to the right fax number, and I had done what I was told. It's just that I was told wrong and since no one knew what to do with the timesheet in Minneapolis, it had been trashed. Had I been told earlier about the procedure, rather than five days after I'd started--and to the wrong account at that--I would have sent the first time sheet to the correct location, and my error in writing down the number would have been found that much sooner. To say nothing of the fact that none of the procedures were communicated to me BEFORE I started, which is the norm, and that I had asked about anyway.
Oh well, he says hastily, now that his attempt to blame it on me had been neatly stuck back up his ass. That's all water under the bridge. From now on, there won't be any problem.
356. CalGal - 8/17/2000 2:54:44 PM
I said yes, there is a problem. This is way too much hassle. I don't want hassle. I'm not good with hassle. I am the sort who eventually gets my time sheet in, I don't like nagging management to sign it, and I like being able to tell someone what my hours are if the manager--or me--is late in doing paperwork. And that's to say NOTHING of this nonsense with expenses, which is giving me hives. I knew that expenses would be risky before I started this, but you guys are making it impossible. Oh, and by the way, this drug test? Best give it to yourself, because you must be high if you think I'm taking a drug test.
No, no, the client manager says. This is all procedure required by the client. While my objection to the procedures is understandable, it really is best for all involved if we stick to them. Besides, he really didn't understand what my problem was. I would get paid on time now, provided that I followed the system. After all, if I were just organized and got everything done on time, I would have been paid already and there would be no problem. So all I needed to do to solve my own problem was to be a bit more organized and understand the needs of a large organization.
I laughed. The recruiter, who knows the reality of a tight labor market a little better than the account manager, tried to intervene. "Uh, Michael (acct mgr's name), why don't we see if we can work something out with the client? We could get her logged onto the electronic system, see if the client can expedite her remote login access (so I don't have to go to Ohio as often) and..."
Account manager says, "Well, we can try. But again, the solution to this problem is for Cal to work with the system, rather than complaining about it."
357. CalGal - 8/17/2000 2:57:27 PM
I said, "Dude. You are right. I am disorganized. I don't like being required to work 'within the system'. I am, in short, a tough nut on administrivia. But let me tell you what I am really, really good at."
"See, I am an expert at defining problems, and as such an expert, I must tell you that you are incorrect about the 'solution to the Cal's problem'. There are two problems. And two solutions."
"There is my problem. My problem is that I accepted a contract on a whim and bitterly regret it because of its affect on my finances. The solution to my problem is simple: I work out the contract, which is 14 more days, and then I take one of the many many contracts that I get called for daily, right here in the Bay Area. These contracts don't require me to take drug tests, and the agencies understand that sometimes managers don't sign timesheets on time, and they get my hours on Monday and they pay me on Friday. My problem is solved the moment I work my last day on this contract."
"Your problem is that I'm unhappy. You have two solutions to your problem: Find another person with my skill set to replace me in two weeks, or make me happy. That's your choice."
There is a loooooooong pause as the account manager takes a few seconds to realize that the power imbalance in this situation is all on his side.
358. rubberducky - 8/17/2000 3:06:21 PM
LOL
359. CalGal - 8/17/2000 3:08:05 PM
I said, after allowing this to sink in: "The good news is that the client and you have the same problem, which gives the client a lot of motive to help you make me happy. So why don't you go see what you can come up with, and I'll see how it works in the next few weeks. And now, I have to go."
That was Tuesday. Within an hour, I was getting bombarded by client management, making sure I could work remotely, requesting me access to their electronic timesheet system, increasing the number of people who could sign my timesheet, assuring me that they'll sign my timesheets immediately, and so on.
Now. If I could just remember how much power I have before I go bankrupt, things will be easier the next time.
Anyway, the moral of the story is that too many people would have hung their heads in shame at the account manager's accusation of disorderliness (an accurate one, of course) and then worked hard to try and get everything done on time and be more orderly. Well, fuck that. I always tell people that if you are ready to walk away, you always have a choice. And you should almost always be ready to walk away.
BTW, just because the trait in question was organization, that doesn't mean it couldn't be some entirely different trait that management thought you should change. I very often see people whose management team has taken on the position of self-help guru. "You need to be more assertive, Joe, and we'll help you take that on." ANd then Joe's performance is assessed on how assertive he is (based on management's skewed perception), rather than how Joe did the damn job.
360. theDiva - 8/17/2000 3:29:40 PM
remind me never to piss you off.
361. rubberducky - 8/17/2000 3:31:31 PM
you need to be reminded?
362. theDiva - 8/17/2000 3:35:33 PM
ducks, this is moi.
363. PelleNilsson - 8/17/2000 4:03:43 PM
CalGal
Maybe you should hire a personal assistant to take care of life's practicalities?
364. CalGal - 8/17/2000 5:02:07 PM
Pelle,
I had one for a while--actually, two different times. One was my son's nanny when I lived in North Carolina, and the other was a housekeeper here in California. They pretty much ran everything else in my life, which left me room to care about paychecks.
But in this case, it was their problem, not mine. Happy update--I did finally get the check from the delinquent agency, and it was for more than I had expected, which was nice. It goes to pay off my mortgage, of course, but at least I'm not broke and horribly overdue.
Diva,
You think I was mean?
365. christipeters - 8/17/2000 6:18:56 PM
CalGal -
fwiw, I think you werre absolutely right - it was their problem. Thanks for sharing the story.
I can think of situations where it would be your problem - like if it wasn't a tight labor market and you didn't have other options, or other circumstances. However, I take away from your story the lesson of looking at things differently, rather than just reacting to criticism/direction like "you need to get more organized".
Options, options, options - there are always options. The key is to remember this and to assess the options clearly.
366. christipeters - 8/17/2000 6:19:30 PM
btw, thanks for the email.
367. joezan - 8/17/2000 6:37:23 PM
Cal:
Yes, I was wondering about stats on Joe...
White male, married, 5' 11''...
Oh - you meant status!
Well, I got a second interview last week (which was mentioned as a slight possibility in the first interview) - one of 3 people out of the 45 they interviewed.
But then, I never got a call back.
Yesterday, my boss returned from a conference up north, which I was also supposed to be at but managed to duck out of at the last minute. One of the guys who interviewed me happened to also be there, and he informed my boss that they'd hired one of their own people.
I was kind of surprised that they even posted the position outside in the first place, since they're required to post inside for 5 days first, and only post outside if they get no suitable internal candidates.
The grapevine has it that they had an internal candidate in mind, but he didn't apply in the 5 day period, so his app was just lumped in with all the outside candidates.
Oh well.
It would've been nice if they'd called and let me know, though.
368. CalGal - 8/17/2000 7:11:50 PM
Christi,
However, I take away from your story the lesson of looking at things differently, rather than just reacting to criticism/direction like "you need to get more organized".
Exactly. This particularly comes up with attributes like organization. As JJ said in a recent discussion, people are usually either externally or internally organized. The externally organized (the Js) are prone to looking down their nose at the internally organized and the whirl of chaos in which we operate.
But it also comes up a lot with issues like assertiveness, "leadership" (in quotes on purpose), "team players", "attitude" and so on. Management will get a particular notion into their head and then decide they can psychoanalyze their staff into becoming a better person.
For example: "Sally does a great job, but she really needs to work on her assertiveness. Suggest courses in leadership and a more direct method of dealing with her co-workers."
Sally, if she's sensible, will refuse such deliverables. Sally cam request that requirements be specific and behavior oriented. For example, suppose Sally doesn't like confronting her peers and turns to the manager too early to take care of things. The manager can require a clearly documented attempt to deal with the situation on her own prior to requesting management intervention. But he can't be vague and say, "She needs to be more assertive."
Putting yourself into the "coaching" trap is just a terrible idea. It's not a manager's job to assess your personality. Just your performance. And they have to articulate their requirements as performance-related--but only if you insist on it. Otherwise you've bought into their vague efforts to improve your personality (for your career, of course) and then you can be doomed to fail.
369. CalGal - 8/17/2000 7:12:07 PM
And Christi, your point about the tight labor market is also valid--there are always times when the choices are less clear cut. But they always exist. And sometimes the option is, "Put up with this shit for now, but get a new job fast."
370. ChristiPeters - 8/17/2000 7:56:39 PM
CalGal - yep, that is why I added the "always options" comment. I agree about the putting things in concrete terms to. I had a supervisor try to give me a lower performance rating because of "attendance issues". I called him on it -
"Did I take any time off which you didn't authorize?"
"Uh, no"
"Did any of my work not get done because of time I took off?"
"Uh, no"
"Have any of my coworkers had to work longer hours picking up slack or dealing with problems that I should have dealt with because of time I took off?"
"Uh, no"
"Can you point to anything that suffered because I wasn't here?"
"Uh, no"
"Have I taken more days off than the company allows for my job grade/ time with the company?"
"Uh, no"
At which point he changed the performance evaluation.
Try to screw me over because I actually take my vacation time instead of rolling them over or cashing them out? I don't THINK so.
371. ChristiPeters - 8/17/2000 7:58:20 PM
However, if that had happened 5 years before, I would have meekly taken it and resolved to not take so much vacation time.
Glad I grew up and developed a spine.
372. CalGal - 8/17/2000 8:02:58 PM
Hey, very good job! So many people don't realize that you can usually cow management into either proving their point or backing down.
Of course, the flip side is that a manager who is out to get you will always, in the end, win out. Sometimes it's because they change their mind or recognize their error, but usually it's a matter of getting a new job or switching departments. Still, that's what makes the victory so much sweeter. He might win out, but he's going to have to work for it and play by the book--and that gives you a lot more time to operate.
(I'm not saying this is the case in your situation, but I'm sure you know that.)
373. arkymalarky - 8/17/2000 8:14:30 PM
I don't think Cal was mean at all, just to the point, and I agree with all of what both she and Christi said. I absolutely despise the deflecto game. It doesn't just have to come from an employer or manager, either, but I sometimes see a similar attitude as a customer or when I'm in need of some sort of assistance. That's particularly infuriating after you've paid for something or are relying on something and then can't get satisfaction and they try to tell you it's because you missed one of humpteen hoops you were supposed to go through. My problem is I get so mad that I can be very catty or ugly right off the bat, and then they have these little ways of dragging the process even further.
I also hate the type of secretary who forgets the "assistant" part of the title "executive assistant," and tries to prevent me from seeing who I need to see or tries to take on my business him/herself. I know it's their job to screen who talks to or sees their bosses, but it shouldn't be like applying for an audience with the Queen to talk to a lawyer or the county judge or whatever.
374. arkymalarky - 8/17/2000 8:24:17 PM
"Of course, the flip side is that a manager who is out to get you will always, in the end, win out. Sometimes it's because they change their mind or recognize their error, but usually it's a matter of getting a new job or switching departments. Still, that's what makes the victory so much sweeter. He might win out, but he's going to have to work for it and play by the book--and that gives you a lot more time to operate."
My husband is a very forbearant man (obviously), but his friendly, quiet nature can be deceptive for some who think he might be some kind of pushover or intimidated on the job. Often he will tolerate things for awhile, saying little or nothing, then the wrong button gets pushed, and you might as well just step aside.
Well, before he went back to school he worked for a while in a factory, and one of his supervisors was an arrogant asshole I happened to know in high school. He walked by Bob one day and Bob made a nice, passing remark, but evidently the guy misunderstood or something, and the next thing Bob knows the guy is pointing to the floor at his feet and yelling in front of the whole plant, "COME HERE!!"
Bob walked over there, and he said, basically, "I'll tell you one g-damned thing, I don't know what you think I said, but don't you ever talk that way to me!" The guy was forced to back down in front of the other workers, and from that point he wanted to get Bob fired so bad he couldn't stand it, but there was nothing he could do. He tried to get him to quit, but had no power over him whatsoever. Finally, at least a year or two later, Bob got another daily, no weekend, no shiftwork job and left, and shortly after that the plant shut down and the asshole boss went to school to become a state trooper. They had a serious round or two in the office in which Bob let him have it in front of the upper admin of the plant, but the guy never could get any backing from his superiors.
375. CalGal - 8/17/2000 8:27:00 PM
Joe, I missed your post! (and the 'u' in status, apparently.)
I hate it when that shit happens. Frankly, I don't like being called back for a second interview unless I'm told I've essentially got the job. It is unforgiveable to call back people for a second interview and then hire internally.
My guess--if it makes you feel any better--is that they didn't want the internal candidate and then some power that is forced them to accept it.
As I'm sure you know, you made an important cut down--from 45 to 3--and that's a good sign.
376. CalGal - 8/17/2000 8:30:13 PM
Arky,
I was thinking more of job performance issues, but you raise an important point--every so often, the manager is helpless.
So you are right--I overstated the "always". Still, if you have a manager upset at you, or continually looking for chances to chop at you, it's best to assume that he'll win. Then if you manage to beat the odds, so much the better!
377. arkymalarky - 8/17/2000 8:39:50 PM
Oh, I wasn't thinking of the issue. Your post just reminded me of that exception. Bob wouldn't have been upset at being fired. That type of job, even then, was fairly easy to come by if you could stand it, which he couldn't--ironically that incident probably made him stay there much longer than he would have otherwise.
Joe,
I hate when that happens. Bob's nephew, an engineer, was done that way by the federal government, but just got hired to a really nice position at the same company which had laid him off a while back. They had some major shifting to do, and I hope he'll be happy. He enjoyed working for the company.
378. joezan - 8/17/2000 10:00:27 PM
Arky, Cal:
Thanks for the kind words.
I know it wasn't the case that they didn't want the guy they ended up hiring (who I know pretty well, btw). I should have mentioned that the internal candidate they had in mind was the guy who ended up getting the job. I do think, though, that what the guy did - wait until the job was posted outside - was done purposely for added leverage. Because although they couldn't hire me at a pay rate higher than the advertised starting salary, there is no such restriction when hiring from the inside. The position is paid on a 6-step graduated scale (not including performance bonuses), and I'm sure he made them nervous enough to promote him at a rate somewhere in the middle.
It takes guts, because you have to be pretty confident that they won't hire someone else from the inside. So my hat is off to the guy.
379. ChristiPeters - 8/17/2000 10:38:13 PM
Good story, Arky
Cal - yeah, I made sure I made a lateral move in the company after that. Working for that guy was going to get me nowhere and I knew it. He had some predjudices about people who wanted a life and to spend time with their family. When I found out I wasn't the only one he was treating that way, I started looking for a way out. My present boss is much better. In fact, last week I got an off-cycle promotin and raise. I'm pretty sure that was the company's way of acknowledging that my previous supervisor was holding me back.
380. theDiva - 8/18/2000 9:34:40 AM
Cal
Hell, no. I admire your brass ones. I wish to God I had 'em.
381. rubberducky - 8/18/2000 10:02:15 AM
CG:
modest update - the HR people have delayed the offer letter til middle of next week (surprise, surprise)
so, anyway, that's plenty of time to compare both offers.
more as it develops...
382. bubbaette - 8/18/2000 10:46:20 AM
Speaking of hiring within the company -- I was one of two people called back for the second interview. The other candidate is under the supervision of the person who recommended me for the job. My skills and experience are clearly a better fit.
I've been in a situation before where I chosen for a job only to have the person not chosen attempt to sabatoge me every step of the way -- not that this would happen here, but I'd sure hate to start out that way.
Assuming that I get the job, is there any way that y'all suggest I make nice with this guy from the get-go?
383. rubberducky - 8/18/2000 11:13:42 AM
get him one of these
384. theDiva - 8/18/2000 11:15:26 AM
hey! I ain't fer sale.
385. rubberducky - 8/18/2000 11:17:22 AM
oh .. i just assumed .. since u are posting nudie pics all over the net ....
386. theDiva - 8/18/2000 11:20:54 AM
INDEED!
I do have my standards, you know.
387. bubbaette - 8/18/2000 11:21:50 AM
she didn't say she won't for rent.
388. theDiva - 8/18/2000 11:23:19 AM
uh-uh. This is gold. Don't nobody have enough except my Greggie.
389. bubbaette - 8/18/2000 11:24:39 AM
By the way, what's with the basket over your head? Is that the latest maternity fashion?
390. theDiva - 8/18/2000 11:27:25 AM
that's niner's porkpie hat. It's too big.
391. theDiva - 8/18/2000 11:27:44 AM
and the string of chili peppers is draped over my butt.
392. theDiva - 8/18/2000 11:28:30 AM
Cal
Feel free to move this MP™ to the appropriate thread.
393. CalGal - 8/18/2000 1:11:03 PM
I won't, but it must stop. (she sez, snootily)
Bubba,
There might not be anything you can do, or want to. The type of person who is going to sabotage you is the type who would see overly friendly overtures as a sign of weakness. The type of person who wouldn't sabotage you is nothing to worry about.
394. PelleNilsson - 8/19/2000 2:07:11 PM
Click on image to get a glimgs of the multitude of tasks challenging an international consultant 
395. PelleNilsson - 8/19/2000 2:08:18 PM
Sory. Hit the wrong button. Stand by.
396. PelleNilsson - 8/19/2000 2:11:15 PM
Click on image to get a glimpse of the multitude of tasks challenging an international consultant
397. CalGal - 8/19/2000 2:18:17 PM
hahahahahahahahaha! That's wonderful, Pelle!
398. joezan - 8/20/2000 10:24:41 AM
This caught my eye, after reading some of CalGal's musings on the blessings of freelancing:
(From Time's review of the upcoming TNT Original Series, Bull, about a renegade band of stock traders who leave their crusty old firms and strike out on their own):
...More unsettling is the subtext of Ditto's (the George Newbern character) crusade. Bull has internalized the trendy, bogus messages of Ameritrade ads, "new-economy" magazines like Fast Company and career gurus like Tom Peters: that entrepreneurship is heroism, that job security is emancipation, that work is art and love and rock 'n' roll. Ditto mocks "the suits...who want to stay [at the firm] for the rest of their lives nice and safe in their little cubicles, papered with guarantees and weekly paychecks. But I thought we were different. I thought we were better than that." Better, that is, than most of the audience, poor chumps, with their boring old-economy longings for job security, insurance and a salary.
399. joezan - 8/20/2000 10:27:05 AM
Uh...that's "job insecurity is emancipation..."
400. CalGal - 8/20/2000 10:49:31 AM
Joe,
I spoke highly of "Bull" in the TV thread. Looked for the review, but couldn't find it. Is it in this week's Time? (if so, it will be available next week online).
I did notice that speech, and I did pick up on those values. What do you think of them? (whether you saw the show or not)
401. joezan - 8/20/2000 6:37:23 PM
Cal:
I think that to folks in highly specialized fields (and to some degree fields not-so-highly specialized, but in great demand), the freedom inherent in freelancing - along with the creative expression that affords - is the biggest perk (besides the money, of course).
God knows, I'd be riding that train if I could. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it - in fact, you've gotta kinda wonder where the big financing and insurance companies are gonna be in a few years anyway.
But I agree with the Time article, which makes a good point (aside from its praise for the quality of the show) about the potential appeal of the show: the vast majority of us poor (and not so poor) slobs work for someone else. What the show does, according to the article, is give the Young Turks all the virtues, while skewering the Company Men. The Renegades are the cool, tolerant, un-hung up ones, and everyone else is a bigoted, phony, schmoozing old fart.
I mean, how's that gonna play in Waukegan?
402. joezan - 8/20/2000 6:38:35 PM
...oh, btw - it was in the Aug. 21 Time.
403. PelleNilsson - 8/21/2000 2:15:15 PM
A mini-quiz suitable for this thread.
Who was the first known mentor?
404. theDiva - 8/21/2000 2:18:32 PM
Adam. He taught his kids to farm.
405. theDiva - 8/21/2000 2:18:46 PM
or herd sheep. I forget which.
406. PelleNilsson - 8/21/2000 3:10:27 PM
Im looking for something more specific. All fathers are mentors to their kids (for better or for worse).
407. theDiva - 8/21/2000 3:11:36 PM
picky picky picky
408. PelleNilsson - 8/21/2000 3:15:01 PM
Hint: One needs a little bit of knowledge of the Greek classics.
409. theDiva - 8/21/2000 3:18:33 PM
I figgered it was one of them there Geeks.
410. PelleNilsson - 8/21/2000 4:17:51 PM
I need to go to bed early because tomorrow I have one of those meetings where one needs, to borrow a Swedish phrase, a concrete butt and an inexhaustible patience. There will be two, maybe three, chatterboxes there ,who will be sprouting nterminable sequences of management jargon. Don't you just hate jargon? It's like it's designed to mask the abscence of thought. As another Swedish saying has it: "The words fly, the brain rests".
In any case.
The first mentor was Mentor, a friend of Odysseus's, in whose care he entrusted his son Telemachios when setting out on his travels.
411. JayAckroyd - 8/21/2000 4:19:53 PM
The first mentor would have been those half horse-half human teachers who, among others, coached Jason.
412. theDiva - 8/21/2000 4:20:40 PM
clever, clever.....
and I shall crib those Swedish phrases. Who said youse were dour and humorless? Hope you have a good night's sleep.
413. theDiva - 8/21/2000 4:23:03 PM
I feel the need to brag.
My brother Vincent, who has spent most of his adult life working his cheeks off (and achieving a huge measure of professional and financial success) has resigned his bigshot position with Donna Karan to take a job at a smaller company closer to home. His reason? He was tired of working 90 hours a week and not seeing his kids. As of September 1 his office will be 10 minutes from home and he will be able to bring his boys to school in the morning, tuck them into bed at night, and spend normal family weekends with his wife and kids.
I'm so proud of him I could pop.
414. CalGal - 8/21/2000 4:25:46 PM
Did he take a big cut in pay?
415. PelleNilsson - 8/21/2000 4:33:34 PM
So typical CalGal. Always the money angle.
416. CalGal - 8/21/2000 4:38:01 PM
I wasn't going to criticize him if he took a cut, if that's what you were wondering. I was just curious if he was sacrificing only prestige, or income as well.
And money, to me, equals control and options. In his case, it is unlikely to matter, given that he probably has reached cruising level and can return to the fast track whenever he likes. So I was just curious as to the cost of his trade.
417. theDiva - 8/21/2000 4:38:15 PM
Cal
Yes.
418. PelleNilsson - 8/21/2000 4:38:43 PM
And next she will say:
"What other angle is there?"
419. theDiva - 8/21/2000 4:39:34 PM
He's got a name and a reputation. They offered him an obscene amount of money to stay, as in, more than I make in a year. He's just had it with not seeing his kids, and being too tired to pay correct attention to his marriage.
420. CalGal - 8/21/2000 4:42:39 PM
Pelle,
As I just pointed out--and Diva has confirmed--he has nothing really to lose in taking the smaller job, and a lot to gain. I was just curious.
Diva,
Has he thought of starting his own business?
421. theDiva - 8/21/2000 4:47:15 PM
Cal
I don't think so. Given what he does, it would require more time than he's currently putting in as an employee. And they are Comfortable and Pretty Much Set. So all in all, this is an excellent move for him. What thrills me is that he reached this decision without interference from me or my mother....and we've been fretting to one another for years that we'd wish he'd do something like this. Oddly enough, she and I have no trouble meddling in one another's affairs but we reign ourselves in when it comes to Vincent. I guess we figger that's Kathy's job.
422. CalGal - 8/21/2000 4:59:08 PM
I just got an email from the agency in Ohio,
"Hi! I've got your paycheck here, do you want to come in and pick it up?"
I forwarded my last email from him--the one promising to fedex my paychecks to me so that I could receive them last Friday, the email that was the reason I agreed to go to Ohio last week because I'd received a commitment that I would be paid--and informed him that no, I wouldn't be in Ohio this week. Which was just as well, really, since my paycheck would do me no fucking good in Ohio, now, would it, since my bank is in California.
So no, rather than me picking it up at the office, howzabout you fedex it? Four days late, of course, and having a broken commitment to boot.
Oh, and I won't be extending the contract. No phone callsl, please.
423. theDiva - 8/21/2000 4:59:47 PM
Geez Louise. These people are lame beyond belief.
424. theDiva - 8/21/2000 5:00:21 PM
You know what? Make 'em wire you the funds.
425. arkymalarky - 8/21/2000 8:42:12 PM
"There will be two, maybe three, chatterboxes there ,who will be sprouting nterminable sequences of management jargon. Don't you just hate jargon? It's like it's designed to mask the abscence of thought."
You're a school teacher too? I thought you were some sort of techie. ;-) PS--Love the Swedish phrases. Think I'll steal them if you don't mind.
I had my first day on the job with my new kids and I'm slap worn out. From the kids, you may ask? No...from all the running around, paperwork, and a two hour meeting meant to set a positive tone for the year. This school requires a lot more paperwork and micromanages much more than my previous school (which didn't do that at all), and they're wearing me out. I asked the principal what to do about a P/O for an annual camera, since the previous sponsor nonchalantly told me that last year's was stolen, and he told me I had a form for that. I told him since he'd handed me about a zillion forms and handouts it was sort of like looking for a needle in a haystack, but I'd find it. I'm telling the kids that if this camera gets lost or stolen I'm buying a twenty dollar job and they can see what kind of yearbook pictures they get with that. The staff is excellent, though, and my students seem really good. My main gripe is 30 in a crowded room with six small tables. I hate using tables. I think kids each need their own space, and 5 per is ridiculous. I'm getting two more tomorrow, but it will still be very crowded.
All the schools around are filled to the brim, and I don't know what they're going to do as the shortage of teachers continues to worsen. This is kind of fascinating to watch, and since I'm on block scheduling I won't have over 60 a semester, so I feel more buffered than I would have been at my old school. Speaking of which, just like I anticipated, I saw about twenty people--no exaggeration-- from that tiny town in Wal-Mart this afternoon.
426. arkymalarky - 8/21/2000 8:42:25 PM
Oh, and Bob has it worse. In 105 degree weather his room has no air conditioning. They ordered a new motor for it today.
427. CalGal - 8/22/2000 1:40:58 PM
Arky,
To the extent that it is possible, I encourage you to set limits on the amount of administrivia and micromanaging you'll tolerate.
And if I were Bob, I'd take the kids to Dairy Queen and charge it to the school. That's obscene.
428. theDiva - 8/22/2000 2:17:16 PM
shoot. Take me to Dairy Queen.
429. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 2:21:23 PM
anytime
430. theDiva - 8/22/2000 3:14:30 PM
ducky
you're so FAB!
431. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:29:59 PM
The Mr. Misty Float is the only thing to have when you're really, really hot. Something about that slush/icecream combo just really does it for me.
BTW, I finally received two paychecks, so I can pay my bills. Expense checks coming, I hear.
And the payroll admin guy got fired. All cause of me.
Gleep.
432. theDiva - 8/22/2000 3:35:09 PM
rut-ro.
433. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 3:36:34 PM
diva:
i learned from the best - YOU!!
CG:
well, i hate that you won't be coming to OH anymore after this month, but can certainly understand it.
btw, i got the raise from the consulting company - 8%
434. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:38:26 PM
Here is the text of the email (sent to both me and the recruiter, who must have been up in arms when he heard I hadn't been paid):
[Payroll guy] has been a temporary for the past 3 months in Dayton as our permanent full-time parolling person (Payroll Girl) has been on maternity leave. After speaking with our Division Director last night, it was decided to get Payroll Girl back within the next 2 weeks. She has agreed to come back. We never had these issues when she was working here full-time (she has been doing
consulting paroll and expenses for 4+ yrs. here).
435. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:39:56 PM
Eight percent!!!!!
That's obscene. That's SICK!!!!! That ought not to be allowed.
They are taking advantage of you. Angle for the highest raise you can get at this company and take the job. Next time you go work for a consulting company, come check with me first, dammit.
Oh, you don't have to take my advice. I'm just ranting. But that's just not right. Eight percent! Jesus.
436. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:41:57 PM
I'll still be coming out to Ohio, btw. Just not quite as often, which will make it a lot more fun. I don't do well with regimes.
437. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 3:44:31 PM
CG:
i was, to say the least, disappointed.
she made sure to mention bench time, paid OT, and the quarterly bonuses based on billable hours as reasons they "low-ball" (her words) salaries.
hmmm
think i'd rather have the money upfront, thankyewverymuch
438. theDiva - 8/22/2000 3:44:57 PM
what's bench time?
439. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:47:21 PM
"Bench time" is the time that employed consultants are paid when they aren't working.
In comparison, I don't get any money when I don't work.
440. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 3:48:23 PM
deev:
that's when a consultant is between contracts, for whatever reason, and the consulting company continues to pay the consultant the same salary even tho s/he ain't out there making anything for the company like a good lil drone.
441. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:48:37 PM
The "bench time" argument is bullshit in this market, btw. Absolute nonsense. For one thing, any consultant in any market who is benched for too long is canned. For another, right now, you have no bench time so who the fuck are they kidding?
What percentage bonus do you get on billables?
442. theDiva - 8/22/2000 3:50:16 PM
I'd never heard that term. Thanks.
Gosh, who in IT isn't working in this market? That's so strange. The jobs here are just begging to be filled.
443. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 3:53:01 PM
i forget exactly, CG, but it's $250 for the 1st 3 quarters of the year for X amount of hours (which i met working about 43/44 hours a week) and then, in the 4th quarter, if u meet X for the year, it's like $1000 - or two - i forget.
agreed about the "bench time" argument, btw.
444. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:53:40 PM
Exactly. That is why it is bullshit.
8% is just a fucking outrage, Ducky. If you get a similar lowball offer from the client, then start checking with other consulting companies--see what they are offering. But that's just ugly.
445. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:55:43 PM
Ducky,
You mean your bonus is not in the 10K range? And she's mentioning it as a reason for lowballing?
Oh, that's nonsense.
Also, I think maybe you should call a recruiter at some point. That will help give you a good idea of your worth.
Snarl. Growl. Snarf.
446. CalGal - 8/22/2000 3:56:58 PM
And everyone is paying OT these days--I'm assuming you mean straight time? They pretty much have to, or too many people would go indy.
447. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 4:02:51 PM
Cal:
yeah, the bonus ain't all that.
what kind of recruiter? for a consulting company or Headhunter or a corp?
i have no idea if OT is standard or not. it's not for non-consultants, so it didn't seem unreasonable - at the time - for consultants to not get it. i see the error of my ways now :)
448. CalGal - 8/22/2000 4:07:43 PM
Oh, headhunter. They are the only ones worth anything. A corporate recruiter has the company's interests at heart.
449. CalGal - 8/22/2000 4:09:25 PM
But the thing to remember, if you can hear this through my rants and outrage, is this:
Companies depend on people like you taking this nonsense. As long as most workers will accept security and fear change, they get away with it. But the money--with the same work--is out there if you don't put up with it.
450. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 4:09:42 PM
any suggestions?
451. CalGal - 8/22/2000 4:13:28 PM
Yes. Click on DICE and see what contracts are in the area for you. See what the rates are. See if they interest you.
Second, check your phone book and look for the Employment section. If you don't have a high tech recruiter section, let me know. Once you get some local names, check their websites.
452. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 4:15:45 PM
that's a good point, CG. changing jobs is just such a hassle.
i know, i know, is the hassle worth $X more a year? yes, it is.
what do you think about the argument that too many job changes are "bad" for the applicant?
in my own experience, since Jan of last year, i've had 3 jobs counting the current one. i wonder if that might hurt me in the long run - i stayed at my first job 2 & 1/2 yrs - then 8 months - now 6 months and i may leave .....
453. CalGal - 8/22/2000 4:23:28 PM
It's not a problem in this market. Besides, by the time you get your act together and start looking for a job (with a kick ass resume), it will probably be 8 months or more in this job.
And as far as an explanation goes, you say that you are young, on the move, and still learning about what you like and dislike in companies in terms of their methods of providing opportunities and compensation.
454. marshame - 8/22/2000 4:28:50 PM
CalGal
I'd be extremely concerned to work for anyone who spells payroll as "paroll". It's a little too close to "parole" to me!
455. CalGal - 8/22/2000 4:29:53 PM
I saw that. But he's an account manager, and those guys almost never have to type. They do it all by phone.
456. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 4:32:08 PM
ok, CG, that's probably true
a lot of the DICE listings list Pay Rate as "Market", "Depending on Experience", "Negotiable" ...
gee, this tells me a lot! haha
457. CalGal - 8/22/2000 4:41:57 PM
Do you know why they do that?
458. rubberducky - 8/22/2000 4:47:25 PM
yes
so ppl will lose the game by saying a number 1st. right?
459. CalGal - 8/22/2000 4:51:42 PM
No, believe it or not.
You will rarely find a listed hourly rate of over $25-35/hour. Almost never over $50. That's because they don't want people to say ooooooh, look at that high rate! I'll apply for that one!
460. arkymalarky - 8/22/2000 5:17:45 PM
Cal,
"To the extent that it is possible, I encourage you to set limits on the amount of administrivia and micromanaging you'll tolerate."
I agree, and I'm pretty good at that. I don't want to give the impression they're telling me how and what to teach, but there's more record-keeping (some to do with yearbook that the secretary used to do where I worked) and documentation and procedures and stuff like that, which is pretty unavoidable, partly because it's just a bigger school--over twice the size of anywhere else I've taught. Another problem is going to happen everywhere in AR in the next year, and will be compounded by the teacher shortage, and that's fear over how the school will do on these new basic "benchmark" and "end-of-level" tests. My view is, Trust me. I know what I'm doing. But they want documentation on every student, tracked progress, evidence that tested materials will be covered, blah blah blah. My favorite lesson at the beginning of the year, though, is the difference between wanting and getting.(g)
English and Math is where the pressure is, so it hits Bob and me both, but I've been through it all before and I know what I'm doing. The state's hanging the threat of disaccrediting the systems over the heads of administrators and each school's SAT9 scores are already published statewide in the newspaper, so the heat is on.
Also agreed on DQ. I'll pass the suggestion on to Bob. He's bumming rooms during teachers' conferences right now (including mine) and they should have the ac fixed in a few days. We have a Sonic and their MrMisty is called a Flurry. I love them.
PS--the ongoing discussion between you and Ducks is fascinating.
461. CalGal - 8/22/2000 5:29:21 PM
Fascinating? My blood pressure is still up, so it's probably a bit more vehement than it needs to be. What interests you about it?
I'm glad to see that you are already up on the need to set limits. Overall, how do you feel on day--what is it, day two?
462. arkymalarky - 8/22/2000 5:59:45 PM
It's fascinating to watch the process of job negotiations in a corporate environment, and for me it's sort of like watching people skydive or something. I don't know--it's just not a world I've had much experience with, and looking at how Ducks tries to deal with different offers and weigh everything on the table (and under it) along with his own priorities, and determine his worth as an employee--all that is just interesting.
On the limits, I've worked with so many administrations in 19 years that I'm kind of used to it, plus I hate to say it, but so many poor teachers come through these systems that with the new pressures on the schools I understand why they tend to try to set high expectations off the bat and make sure teachers know up front that they're expected to get results. The thing is, the good ones do with very little need for monitoring and no need at all for busy work (I despise busy work on the job). It'll settle down in a couple of weeks when they see that everything's going fine. Here admins come into the room while I'm teaching, which is ok as long as they're not distracting the kids or me, but they're looking specifically at what I'm doing, which gives me that looking-over-my-shoulder feeling. Where I was, the admins were there too, but only when they wanted something or were doing a specific evaluation (required by the state ed dept of AR).
The job part is great so far. I really like the kids and staff and administrators and the tone is casual and friendly. The yearbook staff is very self-motivated and they know what they're doing. My English class is too large and crowded and I hate that they're seated at tables, but they've been very accomodating and the first sample essays I got from them today showed a lot of work on their part. I only had about five fail to turn one in, which is excellent for a lower level English class with a number of repeat students.
463. rubberducky - 8/23/2000 2:36:27 PM
CG:
That's because they don't want people to say ooooooh, look at that high rate
so, then, what's your suggestion for determing my $$ worth? i'd rather not call a headhunter - those guys can be complete assholes once they get a "lead"
464. CalGal - 8/23/2000 2:48:26 PM
Ducky,
Well, given how chintzy your company is, I wouldn't be as averse to contacting headhunters as you are. But I've already told you what I think your salary ought to be.
Are there other consulting companies in the area?
465. rubberducky - 8/23/2000 3:39:13 PM
Are there other consulting companies in the area?
good lord yes. Columbus is filled with them.
466. CalGal - 8/23/2000 4:07:45 PM
Well, then. Call one up and ask if they're hiring. Give your salary requirements ($80K) and see if they blink.
467. rubberducky - 8/23/2000 4:11:42 PM
haha
Diva was right - you do have brass ones
however, i may have to do that depending on what The Client offers.
468. CalGal - 8/23/2000 5:21:53 PM
I don't know what brass balls has to do with it. Too many people don't ask for enough. But let me know what the client offers.
One thing--if it is higher, but not as high as I'm advising, DON'T JUMP ON IT. Take some time to think about it, and definitely look askance at the offer if it's not in that range--to the manager, even if you're actually cool with it. It never does to seem too thrilled with what they're offering.
469. CalGal - 8/24/2000 12:00:51 AM
It's funny--about ten years ago, I had a vision of working from home all the time, being able to dialin, working more than one contract, not having to travel, and so on. I had friends who did it. But for some reason, I've always had the type of contract that required onsite work, or clients that preferred having me around, or didn't let contractors dial in, or whatever.
Ten years, I've waited. But now, finally, I've arrived at the scenario I envisioned so many years back.
I have two contracts, one in Ohio, and I can sit here at home watching All The Presidents Men for the 97th time while transferring files and writing up documentation. I can bill a lot of hours--and though it is surprisingly tiring, it really does give me far more options and control.
Most of the contractors I know have been able to do this for some time--I've decided I should have gotten a laptop a looooong time ago.
All my other experiences of working at home have been hampered by not having access to everything on one machine. But with this new toy, I can work on either of my two accounts just by disconnecting from one and dialing into the other.
And I've just gotten a request for a third contract.
It just occurs to me that my cavalier attitude towards backups has to change right now.
Is anyone else able to dial-in? Work at home a day or two a week?
470. joezan - 8/24/2000 12:10:06 AM
A friend's wife retired from teaching today. She has taught elementary school for 28 years, and when she broached the subject of retirement with the district last week, they drooled after her to get her out ASAP, despite the fact that there is a severe teacher shortage.
Because of her seniority, masters degree, and CEUs she was in the top 10% pay bracket for the district. And yet she managed to wrangle a deal that will pay her about $8,000 less than she made last year.
I'm very happy for her, but it seems to me there's something wrong here.
471. Cellar Door - 8/24/2000 12:14:52 AM
GAYS RULE!
472. rubberducky - 8/24/2000 10:44:26 AM
so, CG, what would you suggest it's worth ($$ wise) to hop to a new consulting company?
assuming, for the sake of argument, The Client offers 15% or so over my current salary?
473. CalGal - 8/24/2000 10:50:22 AM
How much overtime do you work, and do you get paid straight time or OT?
474. rubberducky - 8/24/2000 10:53:22 AM
i get time and a half for each OT hour. working an avg 43 hours per week.
475. CalGal - 8/24/2000 10:59:49 AM
Time and a half? That's obscene. Bad precedent. What do you think you are, some labor grunt?
If they don't come in well over 70, I'd stick with the consulting company and look for another job.
476. rubberducky - 8/24/2000 11:04:09 AM
as opposed to what? double time? is that an industry standard?
i agree with your assessment, probably what i'll end up doing.
477. CalGal - 8/24/2000 11:10:04 AM
No, straight time. No self-respecting computer professional accepts overtime. Next thing you know, you're part of the collective.
But don't forget part TWO of my feedback. Look for another job. Get your ducks in order, update your resume, start contacting people for preliminary investigation, and figure sometime after Christmas.
478. CalGal - 8/24/2000 11:10:52 AM
Joe,
I just saw your post. You are saying that she is getting a lot of money to retire? Why was the school so happy to get rid of her?
479. CalGal - 8/24/2000 11:24:06 AM
Salary.com
Check it out, see where you fall.
A point: I think that these ranges are almost always too low.
480. adrianne - 8/24/2000 12:13:27 PM
CG, hope you're around.
I need to write a resume for online posting (I guess monster.com and those sort of sites).
I have no idea where to start, even format sort of things - I haven't written a business resume in, like, 10 or more years. Do you know of a website that you would recommend that can take me through it, from the very basic steps?
Tx in advance
481. CalGal - 8/24/2000 12:23:54 PM
Ad,
I'll see what I can find in terms of websites. If you like, feel free to email it to me and I can give you feedback. ChristinO really liked what I did with hers (you can check).
I can also post some basics here and I encourage other people to check in.
If you're posting on Monster, try Dice as well. And if you don't have a website, get one in order to have a place to post your online resume. You should also have it in Word, though, because there are agencies that need that for their database.
482. CalGal - 8/24/2000 12:24:36 PM
Oh, and what do you do?
483. adrianne - 8/24/2000 12:25:48 PM
No, no, you don't understand! :-)
I don't have one. I know that, basically, you put your name on the top of the page and a contact number, and then somewhere beneath that you put some stuff about your skills. Umm, right?
I need BASIC help.
BASIC.
And yes, I'm aware that I'm a freak.
484. CalGal - 8/24/2000 12:26:35 PM
Oh.
Hang on.
485. adrianne - 8/24/2000 12:27:45 PM
hahahahahahah!!!!!!!!
(sob. sniff. sigh. firf)
486. adrianne - 8/24/2000 12:33:31 PM
(quietly hums "I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me)
487. CalGal - 8/24/2000 12:37:08 PM
Standard format:
488. adrianne - 8/24/2000 12:41:26 PM
Thanks, examples would be great.
So, none of that "Career objective" or "what I want for christmas" stuff, huh? Just the facts?
489. theDiva - 8/24/2000 12:45:20 PM
you could put a 'summary of qualifications' at the top. Objectives are maddening.
490. CalGal - 8/24/2000 12:50:19 PM
The debate on "career objective" amounts to a religion. It's the sort of thing that career counsellors say is important, and managers generally sneer at. I've yet to meet a manager who really gave a damn about that sort of thing. If you are looking for a career change, then that should be covered in a cover letter, not a career objective statement.
Now, industry rules may vary, so you should always check around in your particular profession. But (speaking anecdotally), I can't think of a manager who doesn't look at a carefully worded career objective and think, "boy, someone's been reading those damn books on how to impress me again".
Monster.com has a resume builder site, with a lot of good samples.
The important thing to remember, that many sites and books neglect to tell you, is that what you've done recently is just a hell of a lot more important than what you did ten years ago. I can't tell you the number of people who have two sentences for their current job. Ack.
491. adrianne - 8/24/2000 1:23:47 PM
Great! Thanks!
And since what I'm doing currently (well, for the last 5 years or so) is the only thing that's relevant to what I want to be doing in the future, it's how to cover those other jobs I had PRIOR to this field
ummmm, manager of a big-ass restaurant/bar famous for cheap bear and wild parties? Yeah, that has a lot to do with journalism. Bit player on a Fox T&A show? Let's hire that girl to cover the white house!
that I'm worried about, not glossing over what I'm doing now.
Thanks again.
492. CalGal - 8/24/2000 1:25:25 PM
Ad,
As simply as possible. I quite often tell people to do something like, "1984-88--worked through college in a variety of positions, including restaurant management, stripper, and secretary.
493. CalGal - 8/24/2000 1:25:39 PM
Add that ending quote.
494. rubberducky - 8/24/2000 1:30:26 PM
Re: Message # 479, CalGal.
A point: I think that these ranges are almost always too low.
well, then it hit close to either (a) what i make currently or (b) what i'll make when that 8% you're so fond of kicks in.
495. theDiva - 8/24/2000 1:33:49 PM
cal
you were a stripper?
496. CalGal - 8/24/2000 1:34:42 PM
The high end or the median? I mean, why on earth would you want to be in the middle, Ducky? (g)
497. CalGal - 8/24/2000 1:37:59 PM
Diva,
Ha, ha. No.
498. rubberducky - 8/24/2000 1:39:15 PM
CG:
haha, well, i guess misspoke. in some of the jobs i got a quote for (i fit several of the descriptions), i'm already in the upper percentages. for a couple of them, 8% will put me in the upper percentages.
damned if ya do or don't i suppose.
499. CalGal - 8/24/2000 1:41:28 PM
Ducky, I checked what I thought was appropriate for your skills and the high-end was $85,000.
500. theDiva - 8/24/2000 1:45:12 PM
oops. sorry.
(drooling sack of flesh skulks shamefacedly away.)
501. rubberducky - 8/24/2000 1:55:13 PM
CG:
for dublin?
maybe i'm looking in the wrong section; i picked Internet & New Media and then Graphical User Interface (GUI) Programmer II, Designer II - Web, Web Designer . ok, yeah, a couple listed a little above where 8% puts me - but not by a whole lot.
502. CalGal - 8/24/2000 5:04:26 PM
Ducky,
Why II? Good lord. You're senior.
503. joezan - 8/24/2000 10:50:36 PM
Cal:
I just saw your post. You are saying that she is getting a lot of money to retire? Why was the school so happy to get rid of her?
When he first told me about this, my friend explained that she's just making too much money. This kind of bugged me, because I know that she's a very competent, well-liked teacher. I have several of her students in my church class, and they think she's great.
Today he explained a little better -I'm not sure of all the ins and outs of it, but he says that for every 3 teachers who retire with the seniority "Barb" has, they can hire 5 new teachers.
From that perspective, I guess everyone makes out.
504. RickNelson - 8/24/2000 11:22:37 PM
Any suggestions for W2000/MCSE without prior hands on experience with a WAN and very limited LAN experience? I wont be leaving Minnesota any time soon. Were there any posts about this already?
505. joezan - 8/24/2000 11:24:17 PM
Hey, Rick.
Where the heck have you been?
506. RickNelson - 8/24/2000 11:34:55 PM
School wrapped me up and threw away the key.
Ummm, that's a bit strong, but part of it anyway.
I've been wondering about the gang and had time tonight to see what's up.
507. rubberducky - 8/25/2000 8:26:29 AM
CG:
haha, well, i see the problem now .... you think that with 3 years exp that makes me Senior?
508. CalGal - 8/25/2000 10:38:00 AM
Yes. You are contracted out, are you not? They are billing you at a fairly high hourly rate. You think consulting companies hire out mid-level people? By definition, consultants are considered senior level programmers at any given company. You are a mid or junior level consultant, but that's a different thing entirely.
509. CalGal - 8/25/2000 10:38:49 AM
Rick,
Are you looking for a job?
510. RickNelson - 8/25/2000 11:19:48 AM
Yes Calgal, I'm currently unemployed w/benefits. They're up in Dec. I'm also currently on track for W2000/MCSE, due to finish in Apr.,2001.
511. rubberducky - 8/25/2000 11:21:17 AM
CG:
By definition, consultants are considered senior level programmers at any given company.
oh. i didn't know that.
512. CalGal - 8/25/2000 11:22:00 AM
Well, the training program you're using will undoubtedly have job fairs and other contacts. Have you utilized these? What have you learned?
513. marshame - 8/25/2000 11:33:58 AM
I have a consultant that performs "technical mediation." He acts as an interpretor for me (i.e. detecting bullshit not only from the software vendors/application specialists but from our own techies) and he has the unique ability to understand management and business needs and requirements. In addition to his "translation" services for me, his job is to alert me to options and to identify the downsides of various choices. Also, he keeps a finger on the pulse of the bigger picture and industry, such as identifying that one of our key vendors is moving toward becoming a "TSP" and is trying to position themselves for an IPO in the fall.
He charges us $90 an hour which I consider an absolute steal for the value of his services. He comes to meetings, etc. at the drop of a hat. He adds one hour to any meeting to account for travel time, etc.
He has his own computer company, he developes software and sells it, etc. He says his relationship with us is simply to keep two of his kids in college!
PS He has a great sense of humor and I trust him implicitly. What a great consultant to have on call!
I think there is an incredible need for this type of mediation service, where he acts as a go-between between the vendor and the client when things are at an impass.
He is not always right
514. marshame - 8/25/2000 11:36:10 AM
He is not always right, but he is always willing to go with whatever decision we make, even if it is counter to his recommendation. Flexibility is indispensible in a consultant, IMO. He works for us, he does not push his own agenda.
God I think I love him.
515. RickNelson - 8/25/2000 11:36:55 AM
Yeah, I'll probably find a job OK, but, I'm a novice with regard to the job duties and opportunities. A site or advice from a voice of experience is always a benefit.
What I'm learning now is fresh for my background. This is a career change with humble willingness to do what it takes. I'm learning OS configuration, networking LAN and WAN focusing on information management. Were barely touching W95/98 and this new ME. Focusing a bit on NT4 and getting deep into W2000 Professional and Server. These last are introducing Active Directory, after what I'm told by others is way overdue. Trees and forests, TCP/IP, subnet masks, gateways, and MS NWLink and GSNW for Netware, the OSI model, WNT Subsystems(Kernel and User), DNS, DHCP, etc... We're in the third section of seven. The last four are all W2000. the past 2 have been NT4.
I'm getting enrolled with Techies.com and taking some certifiable courses there. Apps and maybe A+, but I know a lot of that and wonder of the value of A+ over knowing as many MS Apps as possible.
516. CalGal - 8/25/2000 1:29:36 PM
Rick,
You have no experience in the corporate world, right? I forget what you did before.
That can be a real problem--understanding how the corporate world works, what sort of organizations, etc., exist, and how things are done is a big part of working there. Your lack of experience might hurt a bit in finding a job--for example, if I had a choice between a corporate secretary and a fireman, both who had just gotten certified, I'd go with the secretary. I'm not saying that to scare you, but to let you know what areas you might want to investigate before you finish up in April. For example, can you get work as a temp?
On the plus side, though, there is a huge amount of demand out there for network techs who move equipment around in a never ending series of reorgs and office moves. As well as a never ending need for help desk trainees. Both are areas you could investigate.
What are the large companies in your area? Have you checked out temporary placement agencies?
517. CalGal - 8/25/2000 1:36:45 PM
Marsha,
I often do that for companies--in fact, one of my current gigs is pretty much along those lines. I am installing a product for them to evaluate, but will also give them my feedback as to its value, ease of use, etc. I know the sales people at the company, and am very familiar with the underlying technology. But I don't get paid for the sale, so if I don't think it is what's best for them, I can say so without losing anything.
This used to be more common, but the IRS frowns upon corporations having business relationships with individuals.
518. rubberducky - 8/25/2000 1:38:13 PM
eh, i'd hire the fireman
519. PelleNilsson - 8/25/2000 1:40:06 PM
CalGal's Career Counseling Service
A Unique Combination of Experience and Chutzpah!
520. CalGal - 8/25/2000 1:41:21 PM
Ducky,
Yes, but you aren't a manager. Yet. (g)
Pelle,
I can't ever understand your posts. I'm nearly sure I should be insulted.
521. CalGal - 8/25/2000 1:43:51 PM
Rick,
Further along the lines of who I'd hire, I should caveat:
If the fireman told me, "Look, I have no idea how the corporate world works yet, but I realize it's something new." then that would probably be enough to reassure me. In other words, awareness of the issue is 90% of the problem, for me.
And I don't know for sure if you don't have experience in corporate America, so if you do, great. It's not something huge and unobtainable. It's just something to be aware of.
522. rubberducky - 8/25/2000 1:47:19 PM
good point, CG
i was arguing that very thing last night with the current bo. he's a manager and was telling me to not go into it! my position was two-fold. one is i know i'm not ready for it yet. as i think posted before, i need to wait til i'm older before i feel that i'll personally be ready for all that. secondly, i really believe that there comes a point in an IT person's career where management is unavoidable if one is all about the bucks (and for me, for now, i am). salaries will plain off once a certain mark is reached and management is the next step pay wise along with other perks.
so, it's something i'm not looking forward to, particularly, but it's what i see happening.
523. CalGal - 8/25/2000 1:53:28 PM
Oh, I don't think that's true at all. It used to be the case, but now you can easily be a techie prima donna and make tons. It's quite normal for senior tech staff to be making more than their managers in large IT organizations.
524. PelleNilsson - 8/25/2000 2:04:17 PM
CalGal
You shouldn't be insulted at all. On the contrary.
This is possibly an example of the American-European cultural divide on funniness.
525. CalGal - 8/25/2000 2:09:33 PM
oh.
526. rubberducky - 8/25/2000 3:17:52 PM
techie prima donna
i think i've found my calling ....
527. arkymalarky - 8/26/2000 10:04:31 PM
OK, I've decided I want to change careers. I'm kind of kidding and kind of not.
Ever since schools began putting in computers with internet and various software for the classrooms it has been an almost continuous exercise in frustration trying to get anyone to get them going right and to troubleshoot when there's a problem. Now that I've got about twelve brand new computers I've found the problem is just magnified to the point I can hardly stand it, and school's only been going on a week.
How hard can it be to get computers configured and up and running smoothly (most of the stuff isn't even networked), linked to my laser printer, with all the software I need installed? I could install the software if I had access to it, and I think I could do most of the other stuff with a little background. How much harder could it be than what I've done with mine at home? I get furious at the so-called techies in the schools who either don't know jack and have never been trained and call in an "expert" every time there's a problem, or actually have some background but are too lazy or disorganized or incompetent or whatever combination of the three to get anything done. It's not just that they're busy. They come in and screw stuff up and then LEAVE.
I know there has got to be some decent money in this sort of thing, as most schools I'm familiar with are in the same boat. Who can tell me what it would take to get to know what I need to do something like that? Even if I didn't change careers at least I wouldn't feel so helplessly dependent on people who couldn't care less whether my classroom's expensive equipment is operational or not.
528. arkymalarky - 8/26/2000 10:09:02 PM
BTW, the main complication with working with Bob so far is learning when to keep my big mouth shut at work. I casually repeated something he'd said to me to another teacher, then thought he might not have wanted me to repeat it, so I mentioned it to him and, sure enough, he'd rather I hadn't said anything. So then I had to go into damage-control mode. It was no biggie, but could be if I don't watch myself.
The only other thing is what several people have suggested--shop talk. But that was a problem before just being in the same profession, if you could call it a problem. As long as we're not talking anything stressful, it doesn't bother me. From what I see most people like to talk about their jobs, so I don't know that discussing them when we have careers in common is a bad thing, at least as long as we're enjoying it. We will have to learn to drop it when and if it adds to stress, though.
529. CalGal - 8/27/2000 12:40:14 PM
Arky,
Of course there is money in it!
There are two ways to go about this. One is the formal education route--what Rick is doing. This is useful if you have time, no resume, and no existing job to interfere. (Rick is doing the right thing for his circumstances, if that's not clear.)
Then there is the informal route. Most of the people I know went this route--including me, I might add. I used to be a secretary. I think this is the ideal route for you, since it will allow you to become more efficient at your existing job whether or not you decide to start your own business setting up public school LANs.
530. CalGal - 8/27/2000 12:43:06 PM
So the first issue for you is, where do you start? What are the things in your way from being able to stumble through doing this work yourself?
It looks as if physical access to the software is part of it. Can this problem be addressed?
531. arkymalarky - 8/27/2000 1:30:24 PM
Yeah, I can get what I need to load into my computers, I think. This school has a lot more hoops to go through, and one is their deadbeat techie, unfortunately. At my old school I loaded in all the stuff I used...PageMaker5, Office2000, Win98, etc, and I loaded in that stuff at home, too.
What seems to be most in my way is someone irl who will coach me. I have a very paranoid theory that the techies around here are actually not that knowledgeable, and they hide that fact by refusing to share what little they know with anyone else.
One option is to find a student who would be willing to work with me, maybe as a by-the-hour tutor. There is a good computer science department at the nearby university and this summer I went to a co-op workshop on PowerPoint and this young geek was helping everyone out with their projects. I was impressed with how he handled things and I asked him what he was doing (I thought he was in high school). He said he was a junior CS major who had attended the Arkansas School of Math and Science in high school. I asked him if he was going to stick around after he graduated and it took him about half a second to say NO.
cont
532. arkymalarky - 8/27/2000 1:31:11 PM
But it seems to me--not being a techie, just tell me if I'm completely stupid and wrong on this--that there's a lot of middle ground between computer illiteracy and a CS degree which requires a firm grounding in math. It'd take me a year or more just to get the prerequisites, assuming I could pass them, which would be a very broad and foolish assumption (g). So you're right, for me a degree, at least at this particular college where the math requirements are so stiff, would be impossible. Computer courses might be an option, but time and money are a consideration right now. I wouldn't mind doing a half-time teaching/half-time independent techie, since there are enough schools to keep me plenty busy. Doing the job at school has involved an insulting stipend and the number of a person who supposedly really knows what they're doing, and a lot of grief because you receive no training whatsoever except maybe a workshop or two and people are calling you constantly. All this while you're trying to teach 1/2 to 2/3 class load.
Another problem is that the AR public school system seems to treat their techies just like their teachers. Hiring=permanent tenure. No matter how incompetent these guys are or how unreasonable, they're entrenched. This tells me right off the bat that they must not be very good at what they're doing or they could make a lot more money doing it somewhere else (like the kid at the workshop). They've got gravy jobs where all they have to do is look busy and stay out of pocket and string something together that will stay together until they're out of the room.
533. arkymalarky - 8/27/2000 1:32:55 PM
I hate to sound like such a cynic, but there's nothing more annoying on the job to me than a bullshit artist who acts like they know what they're doing, while all the time they realize that I'm onto them and I know they don't know squat and I'm powerless to do anything about it because they have the administration either completely hornswaggled or so scared of ending up with nothing if they can these deadweight freeloaders, that they let them get by with drawing a paycheck ad infinitum.
Sorry about the long tirade, but it bugs me no end that schools and states have dropped so much money into computers, which are a great learning tool, and then suffer so much downtime on these expensive machines simply for lack of competent and conscientious and not overloaded people to set up and maintain them.
534. arkymalarky - 8/27/2000 1:35:15 PM
PS--the techie I'm now dealing with is the one who I told you kept Bob's laptop for about six months, did absolutely nothing to it, and Bob finally had to have the administration come down pretty hard on him just to get it back. He'll tell you anything. And of course he's not Bob's biggest fan now, and the feeling is mutual, and I've got a minilab in my room which needs a lot of attention, so I'm hoping he doesn't take out his feelings for Bob by dragging his feet on what I need. But truly, everyone I've talked to there has had the same complaint.
535. CalGal - 8/27/2000 1:41:37 PM
Arky,
Oh, I wasn't thinking of a CS degree, but a certification. I forget them all, since it's not my field--but you can get certified as a network engineer. Someone else can jump in with the initials.
But I don't think you even need that--it's not something that is inherently valuable if you have the work experience.
What seems to be most in my way is someone irl who will coach me.
Why not use the Tech thread? Aytch, Indy, Alistair, and any number of other people would be happy to answer questions. The thing is that you'd have to prepare--go ask them before you're actually going to do the job, and get a feel for what you need to do. There are also plenty of books you can pick up that will help, as well.
And for the times when you'll need rl help, I think you're right on with the idea of a student. In fact, there may be kids in your school who are active geeks that you could learn from.
I definitely think you are on the right track.
As far as how the career implications work out, for now I would focus on the systems at your school. Get to know them, understand what they need in terms of care and feeding. While you're doing that, start to incorporate what you know about education and bureaucracy with what you are learning of technology. That will give you a way to start articulating the services you can offer to other schools once you know the tech side of things.
536. arkymalarky - 8/27/2000 1:45:11 PM
Thanks a bunch Cal! I'll get some stuff together and really look through my school computers in the next few weeks and see at which point I'm really stumped. At that point I'll pop back in to the tech thread here and see what I can find out.
Great advice, and I really appreciate it!
537. marshame - 8/28/2000 3:52:00 PM
Here's a classic example: the police computer system is supposed to transmit data to the state capital for some sort of cross-check (sorta like Interpol). However, four fields are not transmitting, requiring manual follow-up, which the police officers despise. The techie calls the developer, who says "I'm working on it, but I can't find the problem."
Fast forward 8 months. Same problem, same report: the same techie still asking the same developer, who still hasn't solved the problem. And the vendor project manager can't quite be bothered.
This is where I come in. Question number one: who is the developer's supervisor? and what organizational relationship does he/she have to the alleged project manager?
You would be amazed at how some of these software companies are organized, or should I say dis-organized. the fact that we have withheld about $600k in payments to them does not even motivate them. But there's enough blame to go around. I practically had to perform a tooth extraction to get our police person to describe the problem in enough detail that I could evaluate it.
What I have found in managing the technical area is that you had better have excellent people skills. Generally the computers work fine. It's the PAYPULLLL!!!!!! (Best said in Charton Heston voice, ala Soylent Green.)
538. joezan - 8/28/2000 7:08:55 PM
Hey - I know that techie!
He used to work for Slate, right?
539. marshame - 8/29/2000 8:15:46 AM
Has anyone caught the Saturday Night Live skits about the techies? They are, to put it mildly, rude, not in the least containing their total contempt for the nincompoops they must serve.
Fortunately in our organization, the techies are very nice, helpful and polite. They are just stretched extremely thin, and rather battered down as our corporate culture is to blame all problems on IT. Poor management? Naw, it's just that the damn computer won't givr them the reports they need. Poor service response to citizens? Naw, it's because the poor workers have to spend time in the office inputting data because of the crappy computer system, rather than being in the field (in the continuous 100+ weather). Yep, it's all IT's fault.
540. CalGal - 8/29/2000 3:36:16 PM
I've always found the rude techie bit to be somewhat off key. They're not generally rude, although they can be incredibly impatient.
I do remember when I was contracting at Intel during the Pentium disaster and overhearing an impatient engineer explaining to some confused housewife that no, she didn't NEED a new chip. All she used her PC for was writing letters, didn't she understand that it only mattered for advanced math? Why was she wasting her time on the phone?
And then he hung up and went onto dismantle a concerned CAD tech that no, he didn't need to worry either. You think these programs use advanced math? Heck, he didn't even need to worry about the chip, and he was a real techie.
Granted, this guy was only taking calls because the volume was so high that everyone up to and damn near including Andy Grove was taking calls.
But he wasn't really rude. Just impatient.
541. rubberducky - 8/29/2000 3:40:25 PM
meanwhile, i have yet to hear back from the Client ...
argh!
i asked Friday and the mgr said he'd let me know when he found something out. bastids!
542. CalGal - 8/29/2000 3:45:16 PM
That is normal. Go on with your life, which at this point is to get a good resume and start checking out what you want to do next.
543. RickNelson - 8/30/2000 1:20:35 AM
Good discussions in here.
I've been learning some rl issues with them.
One thing Arky mentioned about techies is something at this point I believe to be real. That is, the techies are not know-it-alls.
I am seeing that very quickly with this education. I'm only learning three platforms and only two of those in depth. The platforms I'm learning are the latest by MS, yet who cares. It's not widespread yet, which will take a while. W2000 Professional or Server are the platforms I'm talking about.
With these and a little of NT workstation/server I'm going to try for my first IT job. But wait there's more, yes for a limited time, we're offering at no additional cost, Techies.com, yes it slices, it dices, and comes with a pretty bow. Seriously though, I'm taking advantage of a training program for career changers and using online training to discover how many applications I can learn in a year. Along with those I can learn a bit of programming, an operating system or two and become A+ certified, if I care. I think I will attempt to be certified in something, but I'm not starting until Friday this week.
More news then.
Techies in my opinion are going to have to be patient to the max.
Anyway, this is rl with that stuff. Now with me, I'm going to be one of those who wants to help, but will need the patience of the operator to understand my need to research what I want to do. This delay isn't meant to hassle, but to ensure I'm using this new information correctly. I'll have a large part of it to memory, but there are some really intricate configurations with operating systems. Those within a large LAN and adding connections to a WAN with RAS and Dial up Networking are more hassles. It gets even more complicated with mutliple platforms, multiple protocols, multiple hubs, gateways, and configurations for all of these and more.
Kewl stuff though.
544. CalGal - 8/30/2000 2:03:58 AM
hahahahahahahahaha.
This just in:
A quick note - can you send me your resume asap if you are interested and able to come to Sydney, Australia immediately for a minimum 3 month [product that I specialize in] contract.
545. stostosto - 8/30/2000 5:26:58 AM
CalGal qualifies for the Olympics!
Great! The Mote will have inside reports directly from the spot!
Go Cal Go!
546. rubberducky - 8/30/2000 11:20:48 AM
CG:
well, the raise goes into affect with this check coming up and today (2:00) i talk to the HR person about their offer.
all in all, a perfect time to have dinner tonight!
good timing ;)
547. winstonsmith - 8/30/2000 2:36:16 PM
Hey Cal,
What a perfect thread for you to host. I will try to check back later and see if I have anything useful to offer other than that I usually hire tech people with no degrees or certifications and pay them top dollar until they are hired away for even more money. It's a great field for people (who have the aptitude) to break into and make money doing interesting work (computer/IS work,)
548. Indiana Jones - 8/30/2000 2:39:18 PM
Howdy, Winston, long time no see...for one of my all-time favorite handles.
549. winstonsmith - 8/30/2000 2:51:08 PM
Thanks, IJ.
I wish I had more time to hang out here - The Mote is still the most interesting discussion forum I have found.
550. CalGal - 8/30/2000 3:25:05 PM
Winston! Could you do me a favor and email me? Your address is on my broken computer--which is still broken despite the power supply being fixed. (sob) I've missed you, and thanks for the nice remarks!
BTW, folks, I can't take the gig in Sydney. Hell, I'm feeling cranky just flying to Dayton periodically. And I'm too much the Californian to take kindly to living somewhere else.
551. PelleNilsson - 8/30/2000 4:19:09 PM
CalGal
You are what, 32? And you can't leave California for three months to see something new? How very strange. I would jump at an opportunity like that.
552. CalGal - 8/30/2000 4:28:01 PM
Pelle,
It's not an opportunity. It's a gig that I've done a gazillion times before and can do in my sleep. So the only reason to go would be to live in a different country, which is something that is only marginally preferable to having teeth pulled, for someone like me.
Now, if I could take my son and let him learn about living in another country, that'd be a reason to do it. But he can't go with me, because he just started school. I'm not going three months without him.
If I had gotten the note in April, I might have taken it on for the summer and taken Spawn with me.
553. CalGal - 8/30/2000 4:28:22 PM
Oh, and I am 38. Ancient.
554. PelleNilsson - 8/30/2000 4:32:55 PM
38 is a good age.
555. CalGal - 8/30/2000 4:34:25 PM
Well, thank you. Would you recommend I off and leave my kid for three months with his dad, or were you thinking I could take him with me?
557. CalGal - 8/30/2000 4:39:40 PM
Win, I deleted that post. The first is fine, or the_calgal@yahoo.com.
558. Indiana Jones - 8/30/2000 4:40:19 PM
Cal: You have to go and you have to take Spawn with you.
Never pass up a chance at foreign travel.
Never, never, never.
559. CalGal - 8/30/2000 4:42:09 PM
Indy,
No, it's not a good time for Spawn to go right now. School just started, his dad would have fits, and I'm not in the mood to justify it. I'm not sure I could, anyway--I'm not sure I want it for him right now.
If I were to do it at this time, I'd have to go by myself. And Spawn and I just wouldn't be too happy with that.
560. PelleNilsson - 8/30/2000 4:42:47 PM
CalGal
Spawn is a bright kid who would no doubt benefit from the experience (but not suffer from the absence of it). I thought you could do home teaching for three months.
561. CalGal - 8/30/2000 4:47:23 PM
If I home taught, I'd have to work and do that, too. Besides, the reason for Spawn to go would be to meet other kids and see how they live in other parts of the world.
Plus, as I said, his dad wouldn't have it. I could do it without his approval--I have sole physical custody--but given that I'm not real enthused about it for the same reasons, I wouldn't push it.
He's excited about starting school and doing well. I don't want to relocate him now--all just so that he can come back in three months.
It's possible that I would have taken the option to work it and travel back and forth every couple weeks--just to say that I'd done it. But like I said, Dayton is wearing me out. I have that example too fresh to want to risk even more travel.
562. theDiva - 8/30/2000 4:49:57 PM
my dear. I say this with love.
Have you lost your mind?
There are literally dozens of places where you can purchase a superior curriculum for the child, and have the online support of teachers to boot. Take that job, take that child, and go to Oz.
563. stostosto - 8/30/2000 4:50:55 PM
Cal
I'd stay with Spawn too. The options sound unworkable.
Couldn't you do the job via the internet, btw?
564. CalGal - 8/30/2000 4:54:33 PM
Sto,
I asked; the recruiter said no, but I told him to check back in the likely event that he can't find someone else. Then I could travel there periodically, and take Spawn with me. That's still eminently possible--assuming I want even that, since telecommuting and travel still means travel.
565. theDiva - 8/30/2000 4:56:37 PM
aw heck, you couldn't just take him? That would be so fab.
566. PelleNilsson - 8/30/2000 5:16:17 PM
My advice: Don't do short-term visits (unless you need the money). These 10-12 hour flights plus the time-zone adjustments are killers.
567. CalGal - 8/30/2000 5:18:14 PM
Gosh, forums are funny. I thought everyone would get a kick out of this goofy request to work in Sydney, and now I'm feeling guilty for not taking it!
You're right about the short-term visits, Pelle. But I am writing back to see what they need, and if I can help them in other ways.
568. theDiva - 8/30/2000 5:18:52 PM
no guilt.
569. OhioSTOPAS - 8/30/2000 5:21:18 PM
Admit it, Cal.
You've seen Dayton; Sydney would be a letdown.
570. CalGal - 8/30/2000 5:22:44 PM
Well, there's that.
571. theDiva - 8/30/2000 5:24:36 PM
and after Stopas, Crocodile Dundee is a wuss.
572. OhioSTOPAS - 8/30/2000 5:31:58 PM
An UGLY wuss.
573. theDiva - 8/30/2000 5:35:57 PM
yeah, seeing as how you look like, um, who was it again? A young Sean Connery?
574. OhioSTOPAS - 8/30/2000 5:36:36 PM
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
575. theDiva - 8/30/2000 5:37:17 PM
remember, there are witnesses now.
576. OhioSTOPAS - 8/30/2000 5:39:43 PM
Oops.
577. arkymalarky - 8/30/2000 7:57:57 PM
The main problem with techies in small AR schools is that they simply don't pay enough to keep really good ones. I hope no one read my tirade as a complaint against techies in general, or even AR techies. AR public schools just can't compete salary-wise, and I don't see that changing any time soon. As a result, we have really nice equipment gotten through grants and and pinching school budgets, and no one to accurately set up and maintain them.
I'm doing a bad thing with my new job and I can't seem to stop myself. It's actually a pretty good job, though as I said, there is more wasteful paperwork and record-keeping and paper chasing than I'm used to. The problem is that I'm comparing everything about it to my old school. I asked for a clock in my room the other day and the principal just looked at me kind of funny and then someone told me that the school didn't provide stuff like clocks. At my old school all I had to say was I need _____________ and I had it in a few days.
My room has tables instead of desks and it's a small, crowded room to begin with, with 29 lower-to-average level 10th graders in it, four to a table. I asked if there was any way I could get desks (the tables are brand new) and my principal just looked at me kind of funny and told me he didn't think there were any available and asked if I could try to switch with someone or use another room that period, which happens to be Bob's prep, who happens to have the largest, nicest room in the entire school. So I asked Bob if I could use his room third block and he just looked at me kind of funny and said he really preferred working in his room on his prep, but we found the room next door to him is empty that hour, so I may try that tomorrow.
578. arkymalarky - 8/30/2000 8:00:58 PM
I also had to do fight prevention between two very angry girls at lunch today and run off a young lady who had driven her truck on campus and was talking to a student of mine. I said, "Is this your mom?" and he said no, it was his girlfriend and she explained she was bringing his lunch and I explained that she wasn't supposed to do that and they just looked at me kind of funny and stood there until they figured out I wasn't going anywhere and she gave up and drove off. The kids are good and the school is fine, and the staff is very nice, but it's just so unlike what I was used to, and the classes I'm teaching aren't nearly as stimulating--neither in subject matter or student interest. They are good and hard-working, though, and I really need to stop comparing this place against the other. I guess I need to give things some time.
579. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 1:38:30 PM
CG:
so, how's this e-mail:
Dear [HR Person]:
I'd like to thank you and [The Client] for making an employment offer to me this past week. Unfortunately, I am unable to accept said offer at this time. Economies of scale just do not allow for a job transition for, essentially, an extra thousand dollars a month.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Scott "Coltraine" Anton
580. CalGal - 8/31/2000 1:40:14 PM
I hope you haven't sent it yet. Read it over, and you'll see why.
581. marshame - 8/31/2000 1:43:29 PM
Ducky, try this:
Dear HR Person,
After reviewing the [dated] offer by [Client}, I have decided I cannot accept the position/contract for less than $xx,xxx. If there is still room for discussion, please contact me.
Sincerely,
Scott A.
582. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 1:43:47 PM
no, no
rough draft
and Coltraine is a jsut a name i like
like Madonna
583. CalGal - 8/31/2000 1:49:50 PM
I'd say "As we discussed" instead of "After reviewing etc.", since that will remind the person that you got a raise. I would also make xx,xxx 70K.
I don't know if I'd say "If there is still room for discussion", though. It depends.
I would say, "I appreciate your interest, and I'm sorry that we didn't get the details worked out prior to your taking time to formalize the offer."
I've been thinking more about this, btw, and I'm pretty sure that from now on you don't want to let the offer amount be a secret. I never have--I always know what the amount is going to be. From now on, you can make it clear that you think it's best if you agree on an amount up front, so that the offer letter is just a formality.
584. CalGal - 8/31/2000 1:50:55 PM
No, I meant that generally speaking, a thousand dollars more a month is a good thing.
585. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 1:51:08 PM
marsha: that's good, i like that
CG: i don't know what you mean? the $1000 a month thing? i wasn't going to mention the raise from the consulting company. bad idea?
586. CalGal - 8/31/2000 1:52:16 PM
Dearheart. It was a 1000 a YEAR.
587. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 2:00:34 PM
oh yeah. whoops. well, as you know, i'm not a math whiz.
I've been thinking more about this, btw, and I'm pretty sure that from now on you don't want to let the offer amount be a secret. I never have--I always know what the amount is going to be. From now on, you can make it clear that you think it's best if you agree on an amount up front, so that the offer letter is just a formality.
but, he was unsure of what to offer because of my experience and so forth. so, he had to talk to my management (and i wonder how much he actually did) - so we really couldn't have decided then. besides, that's how they pressure the applicant into giving a number first and how i was able to make them spill first. i consider that a small victory at any rate.
588. CalGal - 8/31/2000 2:06:32 PM
See, I don't like this whole "talking to your management". It makes you an uneven player in the deal.
589. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 2:18:59 PM
revised:
Dear [HR Person]:
I'd like to thank you and [The Client] for making an employment offer to me on [date]. Unfortunately, I am unable to accept said offer at this time. As we discussed, anything less than $70K is unacceptable. If there is still room for discussion, please contact me.
I appreciate your interest, and I'm sorry that we didn't get the details worked out prior to your taking time to formalize the offer.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Scott "Coltraine" Anton
590. CalGal - 8/31/2000 2:22:45 PM
Hey. That rocks. Good letter.
591. theDiva - 8/31/2000 2:25:04 PM
How about 'it is unfortunate' instead of 'I'm sorry'? You didn't do anything wrong.
592. CalGal - 8/31/2000 2:28:18 PM
He already used "unfortunate". Can't you be sorry without accepting fault, though? (I have this problem all the time--people say, "You can't be sorry, it wasn't your fault" and I'm like, huh?)
593. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 2:31:20 PM
Unfortunately = Regrettably?
594. theDiva - 8/31/2000 2:31:45 PM
Oh, I didn't catch that. I don't know, too many people take 'I'm sorry' as a mea culpa.
595. theDiva - 8/31/2000 2:31:59 PM
Regrettably is good.
596. CalGal - 8/31/2000 2:32:17 PM
Okay, that works. Regrettably for the first unfortunately, and then it is unfortunate instead of I'm sorry?
597. theDiva - 8/31/2000 2:34:42 PM
That's the ticket.
598. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 2:36:40 PM
revised (again):
Dear [HR Person]:
I'd like to thank you and [The Client] for making an employment offer to me on [date]. Regrettably, I am unable to accept said offer at this time. As we discussed, anything less than $70K is unacceptable. If there is still room for discussion, please contact me.
I appreciate your interest, and it is unfortunate that we didn't get the details worked out prior to your taking time to formalize the offer.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Scott "Coltraine" Anton
599. theDiva - 8/31/2000 2:38:59 PM
Beauteous.
Coltrane.
600. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 3:03:58 PM
cool
thanks to Cal, Deev, & Marsha!
that was from Coltraine
601. theDiva - 8/31/2000 3:06:34 PM
irreverent little minx. still, I'm impressed that you know who he is.
602. PelleNilsson - 8/31/2000 3:47:32 PM
I don't like that 'regrettably'. How about a simple 'however'? Less flowery. more class.
603. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 3:49:33 PM
hmmmm
it is regrettable though
i'd like very much for them to cough up more dough!
604. PelleNilsson - 8/31/2000 3:52:20 PM
And, on a more general note: if a guy cannot, at the first try, write a letter rejecting an offer for less than $70,000, is he then worth $70,000?
605. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 3:54:20 PM
ow
606. CalGal - 8/31/2000 3:54:49 PM
Arky,
I missed your earlier posts.
For one thing, when they "look at you kind of funny"? Look at them kind of funny right back. Ask, nicely, where it is written that the school doesn't provide clocks, for example, and point out that your previous school does it. Ask for a list of the things the school does provide. Don't let their habits get in the way.
Did you know you were teaching "lower than averages" when you started? I don't remember you mentioning that. Remember that you can quit, you know, or get another job. I'm not saying you're ready to, but it will help you get through the I'm new here willies.
607. theDiva - 8/31/2000 3:55:04 PM
that's just Pelle being dour and humorless again. I coulda written it first try and I assure you I am worth $70K to no employer.
608. CalGal - 8/31/2000 3:56:31 PM
Pelle,
He wasn't looking for help with the concepts, but with the 'tude.
609. CalGal - 8/31/2000 3:57:00 PM
But Diva is dead on wrong. She's worth 70K or more to any employer except her current one.
610. PelleNilsson - 8/31/2000 3:57:50 PM
Half-joking, ducky, dear.
611. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 3:59:04 PM
ah - i see
still a good swipe - and i try to pay tribute to one when i see it.
612. theDiva - 8/31/2000 4:12:20 PM
Cal
ha! Thank you for your very, very kind compliment.
613. rubberducky - 8/31/2000 4:35:38 PM
614. theDiva - 8/31/2000 4:41:31 PM
story of my life.
615. CalGal - 8/31/2000 4:59:03 PM
Yes, I always tell people it is a baaaaad move to go to part time, unless you are paid hourly.
If you're exempt, you can just take off whenever you want.
616. theDiva - 8/31/2000 5:03:27 PM
Cal
something just occurred to me re: your 609. A woman who held a position similar to mine (same grade, different agency) left for the private sector and doubled her salary.
Of course, she now has to commute up 95 and go through the mixing bowl to get onto the Beltway to get to her job.
617. CalGal - 8/31/2000 5:09:45 PM
Deev,
Double your salary for what--1 hour or 90 minutes more a day tops?
Not a bad deal.
618. theDiva - 8/31/2000 5:14:41 PM
HA! Try 2 1/2 hours on a good day. In a m.f.er of a traffic pattern. Nooooo thanks.
619. CalGal - 8/31/2000 5:15:43 PM
Well, that's still not all that much.
However, I think you are operating on a faulty premise--although you know your location better than me. Aren't you government? I think that is the defining factor in you getting paid less, not location.
620. arkymalarky - 8/31/2000 6:01:27 PM
Cal,
Guess what a student handed me today? A nice new clock with a package of about six batteries. I have let people know what I think there, possibly too much in the lounge and not enough directly to the administration--a very bad thing on my part, and I know it--I'm working on that. I'm not shy about saying anything directly to the administration, ...well, almost anything...but I don't need to share my gripes otherwise at work.
In general, though, it's not the new place itself, it's that I miss my old school. I called my best friend who teaches there last night and asked her how things were going and how everyone was, and after I got off the phone I sobbed my eyes out for about an hour. I loved that place and I miss it a lot. I miss my room and my stuff and my friends (virtually everyone who worked there, from top to bottom) and my kids. Oddly enough, after my little catharsis, I feel better and I'm going to try to work on my own perspective and attitude. The people here truly are very nice and the administration has been no problem and has been responsive and supportive so far.
And I did know I was lowering the level I'm teaching, which is part of what makes the job so much easier and less time consuming, but also less interesting--it's not the kids so much as the material I'm teaching. But preparation time is much less than before. The kids aren't the lowest levels, though. That would be much more stressful than what I had before or now and at least as hard to prepare for. They're pretty much average range, and they have a very good work ethic. I haven't had a major problem in my room yet, even though it's a much bigger school, and only about two in each class who don't put out much effort.
621. arkymalarky - 8/31/2000 6:03:49 PM
Parttime teaching in AR is relatively not a bad deal (yeah, I know, relative to fulltime teaching in AR...ha.). It's half the classes and half the time at work, period. No subbing, no extra duties, no staying after the half day is up, half the staff development time, etc.
622. theDiva - 8/31/2000 6:12:15 PM
oh, it's definitely the government thing. However, our county is still fairly young in terms of attracting those types of private sector jobs as I've described, and when they are available around here, they do pay less. Employers here tend to figure that the perk of living close to home means they can offer 15-20K less than their counterparts inside the Beltway.
623. CalGal - 9/2/2000 6:55:58 PM
Arky,
That is so sweet about the student. Gosh, who would have thought that teenagers had it in them?
You know, one thing to think about is this--just two days ago, you mentioned that you were thinking about a new career. Would you have had the time or energy for that if your work weren't a lot less demanding?
Diva,
That probably won't last long. But is the government a big employer in the area?
624. arkymalarky - 9/2/2000 7:12:48 PM
Cal,
Not to kill your faith in the goodness of youth or anything, but the principal is the one who bought me the clock (I'm sure from school funds), which is good, because it tells me that they're not as much cheapskates as what I was told. It was very nice of the kid to bring it down to my room, though. ;-)
"You know, one thing to think about is this--just two days ago, you mentioned that you were thinking about a new career. Would you have had the time or energy for that if your work weren't a lot less demanding?"
I'm sure not, especially with Mose the age she is. The interesting thing to me right now is that within public schools so many things are opening up--counseling, technical support, administration, etc, that with a couple of years of parttime school and fulltime teaching (which is still only 185 days a year) Bob and/or I could try something else in the same area and draw more pay (of course it's a much longer contract, too, but still...). Neither one of us would be a ps administrator if you held a gun to our heads, but that's a field which is about to be wide open. They're projecting that well over half of the current ps admins will be retired within the next five years.
625. CalGal - 9/2/2000 7:22:42 PM
The principal bought it? That's even BETTER. Good lord, here I was trying to put a good face on your situation, where you only get clocks through student pity.
And I think the extra time and less pressure will give you the ability to position yourself perfectly for any number of career changes. Just something to add to the "plus" list as you go through the grief stages for the old job.
626. theDiva - 9/6/2000 8:08:03 AM
Cal
If our Economic Development dept has their way, you're correct, it won't last long. The County is developing a high-tech park up at the western end, and it's filling up fast. And yes, the public sector (govt, schools, park authority, service authority) is currently the biggest employer in the County.
Arky
Adjustment pangs, eh? I still think you're awfully brave to have made the move. I wish you success.
627. rubberducky - 9/6/2000 1:47:23 PM
taking Cal's advice, i just talked to the Client's management
i told him that i was turning the position down for two reasons (which later turned into three):
1) money. plain and simple told him of my conversation with HR re: the raise and such
2) in the offer letter, it mentioned i'd be in the "department" (he, as i did, had no idea what that meant) for 18 months. um, no thanks
3) i think i've done pretty much all i can here at the Client. i'm ready to tackle new things
so, he said he'd inquire about the 18 months thing as that seemed much too long to both of us. and he's gonna see if there's something at the Client that matches what i wanna do. right now, i'm coding a front end for a web based administration tool. kinda boring. i wanna get into more commercial applications where i can be more creative. so, he's gonna look for that.
plus, i told him i'd cc him on the e-mail to the HR person and he was thankful.
628. arkymalarky - 9/6/2000 8:21:59 PM
Thanks Diva. I'm doing much better. Now if I can just get through picture day tomorrow (as yearbook sponsor it's kind of my deal) I think I will begin to slip into a nice and comfortable environment. It really helps to have good kids. I also had a long visit with my best friend from my old job this weekend and that made me feel a lot better, too.
Ducks,
I've been following this process with interest, but not knowing a lot about that sort of thing I'm not sure where you're standing now. Could you give a basic recap for a lay-idiot of the point you're currently at in negotiating and decisions?
629. rubberducky - 9/7/2000 9:33:36 AM
arky
you're hardly what i'd call a "lay-idiot", but, sure, i'll give you the Reader's Digest version:
i moved to Columbus a little more than 6 months ago to take the job i have with this consulting company (company X). in all that time, i've been at The Client.
well, 6 months came and went. there was a review of sorts that most corporations give to evaluate progress and the customer's satisfaction. i assumed (as my previous experience suggested) there would be a raise in pay associated with going thru the evaluation process.
well, there wasn't. that is to say, X doesn't normally give one til a year of service
the other factor is The Client has it in the contract that they can offer me a full time position after the consultant has been around for 6 months
so, i had The Client offer to offer a position (they have to ask if they can offer for some reason) & the review (and possible raise) at company X.
well, The Client offered me a lousy $1000 more a year to come on board full time (FT) and a promise to not change departments for a year and a half (which is insane) and company X offered a 8% bump once they found out The Client wanted to offer a FT position.
so, i am now staying with company X. as i said in Message # 627, there's a possibility that The Client will offer me something better, but i'm not holding my breath.
so, i'll stay where i am for the time being, get the resume together, and wait til the end of the year and see what i'm worth. about the when the year anniversary rolls around (in Feb) i'll tell company X to contract me to a new client for what i find out i'm worth.
630. rubberducky - 9/7/2000 9:34:28 AM
hmm, that coulda been shorter.
hope that answered your questions, arky
if not feel free to tell me so
631. arkymalarky - 9/7/2000 8:23:09 PM
Nono, it was a perfect recap. That's just what I wanted to visualize--the basic chain of events and interactions between you and the company and The Client.
632. rubberducky - 9/8/2000 9:48:57 AM
unexpected update:
just got a call from the Client wanting to know if they offered the $$ requested and do away with the 18 month deal, would i be interested?
i replied, i'd consider it, and told him of the conversation with the manager about where i see my career going.
so, i guess we'll see what we see
633. theDiva - 9/8/2000 10:03:07 AM
Too lazy to move this the correct way...
25603. CalGal - 9/7/00 6:42:19 PM
Payscale in lawoffices and gubmint work is a real problem for attracting good techies, I agree.
Is the only thing that keeps you in government the bennies?
Not just, though they are good and solid. Much as I complain, I truly do enjoy serving the community; I never had this level of job satisfaction in the private sector, despite the pay, prestige, and challenges. My working conditions are extremely pleasant. My commute is an absurd 10 minutes. My supervisors (I'm shared between two divisions )are too fabulous for words - this week they agreed to support my telecommuting during the last two months of my pregnancy. I enjoy an excellent reputation throughout the organization - one which I've worked diligently to achieve. As a result, I can pretty much advance as far as I want to as long as I'm willing to work towards that. And my job is secure.
It'd be pretty hard to gamble and give all that up for a larger paycheck.
634. racehorse - 9/8/2000 11:17:03 AM
I'm looking for a PR job in Chicago, and have been since spring. I'm told that is really not too long to look, but it feels like an eternity.
I'd love to hear about the unusual ways folks here have found jobs. Even though I've had some good interviews, nothing has come through for me yet. My motivation is flagging.
635. CalGal - 9/8/2000 11:33:32 AM
Hi, racehorse! Welcome to the thread.
In my entire life I have only been hired for one posted position. Every other time someone has met me for some other reason, liked me, brought me in for an interview, and I got hired. Often times without looking for it. But I am in high tech, and that is a Strange Place.
I'm sorry you're having a tough time--and I'm sure spring does feel like an eternity ago. Have you gone through recruiters, or primarily responded to posted positions?
636. racehorse - 9/8/2000 11:41:07 AM
I'm having zero luck with recruiters. I'm trying to line up an interview with the decision-maker at an employee assistance firm. She called me when I was preparing for an interview (3rd) with an international hotel, spa and resort chain last Friday.
Long story short, we hit it off, but decided that the salary requirements didn't mesh. I had my interview, then giving it some more thought, felt that the EA compay might be a good fit and career move, despite topping out at about 20 percent more than my current salary. I called back, we've traded voice mail, and she seems eager to talk to me, but is hideously busy this week.
I have two phone calls into her. I even wonder if she's in the office this week. I'm thinking of sending her a clip I found in Forbe.com about companies that do some of the same stuff the EA company does. Does this seem too eager? I dunno.
Oh, and the company is represented by a recruiter. I talked to her on the phone, and she never called back. So I don't have a lot of faith in recruiters.
637. CalGal - 9/8/2000 12:28:40 PM
Race,
You know, at this point I always start to wonder about the whole "meta" of it. (she goes all Californian).
In other words, you're bright, you're ambitious, you've got a solid resume and an excellent education--and recruiters aren't calling you back? What the fuck is up with that? It's absurd.
It is possible that something is off. And I don't mean with you (although you have to grit your teeth and at least consider the possibility, too). But it's more likely that it's the recruiters, the companies you're going through, the type of jobs you're applying for--it can be a cosmic clusterfuck of epic proportions, all looking harmless and innocent from the outside.
I think your question about unorthodox means of finding jobs is a good one, and I invite everyone to step up with their tales.
But whenever anyone is having a tough time finding a job, I always encourage them to step back and look at the big picture. There are some people who just find jobs easily, others who have to struggle at it--and it's a combination of things, not personality or resume but also the field, the location, and a host of other intangibles.
I don't want to diminish the importance of "keep plugging away". However, I also encourage you to find someone you trust who also knows your field and can assess your methods, the companies you're applying to, the recruiters, and so on. This is not to challenge your own knowledge at all--just a way of making sure your bases are covered.
638. racehorse - 9/8/2000 1:14:54 PM
I actually talked to a friend of mine recently. I think for some reason I'm not selling myself right--I've been out of practice for six years. Her impression is that it's going to take time to get back into interviewing, and that I'm going to have to network my ass off to find what I want.
IOW, it's all on me!
WRT recruiters--it could just be the field I'm in. PR recruiters seem like a flaky bunch to me, but then again, I've only tried to work with three. And in the aforementioned case of the EA company, the company, not the recruiter, called me back, which means that the recruiter is being the gatekeeper
So I'm switching gears. I'm targeting companies I'd like to work for, sending an e-mail with a link to my web site.
And I just ordered a bunch of job-hunting books with a gift certificate my company recently gave me for my six years of service.
Ironic, no?
639. rubberducky - 9/8/2000 1:22:38 PM
how'd i find my jobs?
monster.com
640. joezan - 9/13/2000 8:55:58 AM
Well, today is the final day of my facility's accreditation audit by the American Correctional Association - the end of a two-years-plus process which has had me virtually tied to my desk, writing policies and developing forms and such to bring us into compliance with 403 standards, when I wasn't busy tracking down evidentiary documentation, developing a training curriculum for 23 separate training requirements, and training staff in all of them.
For two days I've been playing fetch - running to grab additional documentation, snatching staff from their workplaces and kids from their classrooms for audit interviews, and performing on-the-spot policy edits. Today, their time will be spent looking through staff and resident files, and in additional interviews.
Last night 3 other administrative staff and I brought the two auditors, one from Tennessee and one from Oklahoma, out to dinner at a very nice Italian restaurant. These men, who have had our stomachs turning for two days with their poker faces, raised eyebrows and, sometimes, downright dour expressions, did not loosen up a bit.
641. joezan - 9/13/2000 8:57:07 AM
Then, during after-dinner espressos, Ed (the Oklahoman) gave us a preliminary final report.
He told us we have one of the finest detention facilities he's ever seen - that the quality-of-life, for both staff and kids, is unequaled.
Then, after mentioning a very few deficiencies which did not cost us much in the final tally, he said:
"Ya'll were doin' jus' fahn unteel 4 aclock taday, when we were leavin' and Joe here pulled out o' the porkin' lawt raht in front of us. As ya'll know, Bob (the other auditor) is from Tennessay. Ya'll oughtta saw the expression on his face when he saw that Bush bumper sticker...
NAH - ya'll got this nailed! We'll give you the final numbers tamorrow, but you're well over 90%."
So, barring a brutal deprivation of human rights during their final walk-through today, we are the first and ONLY accredited facility in the state of Michigan.
642. racehorse - 9/13/2000 2:41:33 PM
Things are picking up for me. Have an interview early tomorrow morning, and a dot.com interviewed me over the phone, and wants me to come in for a tag-team interview sometime within the next few weeks.
643. CalGal - 9/13/2000 3:16:47 PM
It seems like those hundreds of submissions you did over the weekend really paid off. Have you researched the dotcom?
644. CalGal - 9/13/2000 3:18:01 PM
Joe,
Congrats! Sounds like a hell of a resume addition, too.
It must be pretty much a given, if he's going to tease you like that. Man, I bet your heart stopped for a second or two.
645. racehorse - 9/13/2000 3:35:57 PM
I have researched the dotcom. They are partially funded by a well-known VC firm, and majority owned by a long-standing bricks and mortar outfit.
IOW, they may be more than a flash in a pan.
Who here has dot.com experience? How much do they pay? What are the working conditions like? What should I expect from the interview?
646. joezan - 9/14/2000 12:19:53 AM
Cal:
Thanks.
You betcherass my heart stopped - we all froze for about 2 seconds.
I was so nervous this a.m., I drank a 2 liter Pepsi between 8 - 9am, and forgot how to access the Lotus program I've worked on nearly every single day for the past 5 years. You know, WordPro - with the little icon on the taskbar?
During the exit report, which was attended by the Chief Circuit Court Judge, the Circuit Court Administrator, our Chief Probate Judge, and several county officials, the lead auditor all but called ours the finest facility he'd ever audited. He said (echoing something I have claimed for years) that there is more treatment going on in our facility - a place for juvenile delinquents - than he's seen in any treatment facility. He remarked that he would have no problem leaving his own son in our care.
Anyway, this went on for over an hour. Then they got down to the final numbers, and declared us in 100% compliance with all mandatory standards and 98.5% overall (you need 90% to pass). This, he said, is remarkable for a first audit and unheard-of for a county-run facility. We missed only 6 minor standards over which we have no control, and which we had reported before-hand as being out of compliance.
All in all, a very good day.
I think I mentioned a few months ago that I might start looking at doing some consulting if this went well. From what I've heard, after I go down to Nashville to accept my award in February I will start getting calls. I'd like to be a bit more proactive about this, and am already working on some things.
647. joezan - 9/14/2000 12:34:23 AM
BTW, Cal - I like the new Mote look.
648. CalGal - 9/14/2000 11:26:46 AM
Racehorse,
I've worked for two dotcoms. It used to be that you worked for less money in exchange for equity, but now you should be able to get a reasonable salary and a good chunk of equity. Startups get so much funding these days (it's one of the reasons salaries are skyrocketing). Now, if you want a huge amount of equity, you can then take a cut in salary--if they are willing.
The things to consider in a startup:
649. CalGal - 9/14/2000 11:27:50 AM
The one dotcom I worked at,
To me, this is synonymous with "I worked at this one dotcom"--but it's not to those who don't have the CalGal Lexicon.
650. theDiva - 9/14/2000 11:28:05 AM
Joe
Good work. Congratulations!
651. CalGal - 9/14/2000 11:30:32 AM
Joe,
Awesome. As for consulting, you need a resume that highlights your expertise, as opposed to just what you've done. It often takes a rewrite to package it that way.
And thanks!
652. racehorse - 9/14/2000 1:04:58 PM
CalGal, thanks for your input.
Do you know where I can go to find info on evaluating employment at dotcoms? I've found a few resources, I'm just wondering if you know of others.
653. CalGal - 9/14/2000 1:09:28 PM
You know, I thought I had the San Jose Mercury link in the butterscotch bar, but I see it's not. Let me go look it up. They are an excellent paper, and because of their market, they probably have the most indepth analysis and coverage of startup employment. It's fairly well regarded nationally.
654. Dusty - 9/14/2000 1:32:16 PM
joezan 
655. CalGal - 9/14/2000 1:52:03 PM
Racehorse,
SiliconValley.com. It's a compilation of columns, advice, hard news stuff. It obviously has a lot of Valley-centric stuff, but it really does have more dotcom basis than any other paper I've seen.
656. racehorse - 9/14/2000 2:42:29 PM
Thanks!
657. racehorse - 9/14/2000 3:41:53 PM
Update:
Just had two more contacts from my massive monster board e-mail blitz. Both companies are out east--one in the Boston area (tech firm) and one in Virginia (PR firm). Have one phone interview scheduled for Monday and another that should take place tomorrow afternoon.
658. CalGal - 9/14/2000 3:45:27 PM
I said this somewhere else, but it bears repeating here: I am usually a skeptic about blitzing. I always figure targeted approaches are better. But your success has definitely caused me to add it to my list of suggestions I make to people. Thanks for sharing it.
659. CalGal - 9/14/2000 3:48:47 PM
And I didn't realize you were up for relocating. Is everyone in the family okay with this?
660. racehorse - 9/14/2000 3:51:32 PM
My husband is up for it--he considers Chicago to be somewhat of a cesspool. I think I might like living in a smaller city for a while. I haven't asked the baby yet. ;^)
661. CalGal - 9/14/2000 3:56:52 PM
Well, I know several babies who have strong opinions on relocations. They want to check out daycares!
If you're willing to relocate, make sure you make a list of all the cities you'd want to move to, and check them out.
662. racehorse - 9/14/2000 5:07:44 PM
Missed the bit before about the e-mail blitz. I was getting nowhere, until my husband convinced me to be a bit more aggressive.
663. joezan - 9/14/2000 10:59:17 PM
Cal:
Speaking of checking out cities, your last post reminded me - whatever happened to KateWrath - has anyone heard from her?
And...
Today, already, believe it or not, I got an offer - not for consulting, but to write a grant, of all things. I've written one grant in my life, and this lady knows it.
Not exactly what I had in mind, but it might be a good side job till February.
664. CalGal - 9/14/2000 11:04:10 PM
Writing a grant is a form of self-employment. Are you charging appropriately?
665. rubberducky - 9/14/2000 11:22:06 PM
quick question before bed:
how difficult is it to deduct my new PC as a work related expense as a developer?
if i can, do i have to deduct it over the course of a few years or can i deduct it all on the 2000 return?
666. CalGal - 9/14/2000 11:24:40 PM
You're an employee. You can't deduct any expenses unless they are over 2% of either AGI or taxable income, I forget which. You aren't there.
If you have any self-employment income, you can write it off against that. But you need a Schedule C.
667. joezan - 9/14/2000 11:40:40 PM
Cal:
Before I consider what to charge, I've gotta look at the whole package. I have no idea what all it'll entail, but I know it's gonna be a whole lot more work than my piddling little $10,000 training grant was (which came from a very bloated state fund).
This grant is for federal money, for start-up of an experiential-based, wholistic family therapy endeavor this lady (she's a shrink) wants to enter into with her partners in private practice. You know - high and low wilderness elements, rope-climbing up in the trees, etc.
I really have no idea what to charge since mine was done for my own training program at work, but I assume it should be some percentage of the grant award.
668. CalGal - 9/14/2000 11:42:05 PM
Well, you need some money even if she doesn't get the grant, don't you?
669. joezan - 9/15/2000 12:04:23 AM
Well of course.
I'm saying win or lose, I get X.
(But a bonus would be nice if we got it).
670. CalGal - 9/15/2000 12:06:13 AM
Yes, bonus is good. Are you going to charge fixed price or hourly?
671. joezan - 9/15/2000 12:11:22 AM
Cal:
I don't know. Like I said, I've gotta see what it entails. I'm assuming I'll ask for a percentage - which I'm not dead-set on, but which of course precludes the hourly.
672. CalGal - 9/15/2000 12:22:41 AM
Yes, if you charge hourly, you fix a high rate and go with that.
What rate were you thinking? $100? $200? What's the going rate in that line of work?
673. joezan - 9/15/2000 12:43:45 AM
Cal:
I don't know. My one and only grant took me probably a solid 30 hours, and was from a fund specifically for training.
This one is gonna be for at least 3 times what that one was, and will most likely be from a fund with a much less specific target, but with 100 times the competition.
Either way, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot. I might really enjoy it, so I wouldn't want to scare them off by demanding something excessive and ruin what could be a good opportunity for some experience.
I'm gonna have to do some research.
674. CalGal - 9/15/2000 1:03:24 AM
Well, I'm sure you have resources, but I went and perused the web to see what there was to see:
Yahoo search on 'grant writing consulting'
Besides, you'll be needing a web page soon.
675. joezan - 9/15/2000 1:14:59 AM
Hey, thanks!
I was thinking of actually asking someone, but now I don't have to get off my butt.
676. joezan - 9/15/2000 1:16:57 AM
Dusty:
I'm getting a broken image on your message I just noticed, but thanks!
...you too, Diva!
677. Uzmakk - 9/15/2000 12:34:21 PM
joezan:
I asked you a question in the Slowthread a while ago and did not get a response. You live in Michigan and work with gold leaf? Have some kind of Christian Museum close by?
678. rubberducky - 9/15/2000 1:23:33 PM
Re: Message # 666, CalGal.
You're an employee. You can't deduct any expenses unless they are over 2% of either AGI or taxable income, I forget which. You aren't there.
oh, sorry i wasn't more clear. i'm undertaking some ... side projects for extra $$. as this is unrelated to my "job", can i then deduct this as a business expense? if i do, do i also declare myself self-employed?
i hate understanding the damn law.
679. CalGal - 9/15/2000 1:40:06 PM
Are the side projects W2 or 1099? Are you billing for the work? If so, they will send you a 1099 form at the end of the year and yes, you are self-employed. And yes, you can then write off the purchase of the computer. Technically, you only write off the percenftage you use for business work, but if an auditor ever asked me that I think I'd take a baseball bat to him. I'm a techie. I can't do my job without a computer, and unless you're asking corporations how much personal time their computers are used for, fuck off.
680. CalGal - 9/15/2000 1:41:57 PM
I don't know how much this money is, but if it's a significant chunk then make sure to file quarterly taxes. And remember that you owe 15% of SocSec (since you don't top out at work) and 3% of Medicare on all income.
681. rubberducky - 9/15/2000 1:46:08 PM
CG:
no, this is something a friend and i are putting together on our own to see if any money is out there to be made at it. and, i don't anticipate much on the front end in the way of revenue.
assuming actual money is made, is this worth getting some sort of accountant?
682. CalGal - 9/15/2000 2:29:39 PM
Oh, you're starting a business!
Then keep records of all your expenditures and even if you don't make money, you can write off the costs.
Accountants--ymmv. I hear there are the type that you hand them all your records and they go figure out how to save you a bundle, but mine was not like that. I went back to doing them myself and was much happier.
Read a book or two on it, though. Particularly if you're not doing it by yourself.
Do you know AdamSelene's email address? Maybe I'll nudge him. He's started a software company from scratch.
683. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 2:30:32 PM
From politics:
"Hey Rask..what do you do in quantitative analysis if I might be so
bold...I'm considering work in that area eventually (having learned
thanks to you what "range" is)...maybe you we could discuss in
careers thread??????"
I do a wide variety of work, mostly for state and local governments,
and even some schools, regarding program evaluation and
performance measurement. One of the central problems with the
public sector is that it lacks the information provided by markets
about its efficiency, such as profit margins. The next-best-thing is to
evaluate government programs on the extent to which they meet their
goals. Does widening a road really eliminate a bottleneck or does it
just move the bottleneck a mile down the highway. Do looser
procurement requirements improve the speed and cost-effectiveness
of government purchasing? What is the impact of various correctional
programs on criminal recidivism? I contract with a lot of different
government agencies when they need answers to questions like this.
There are various levels at which this can be done, but most of my
work is doing things like conducting a survey, setting up a
quasi-experiment/pilot project, and the like.
684. CalGal - 9/15/2000 2:34:51 PM
Rask,
Do you work as an independent, contract through agencies, or are you an employee of a consulting company?
685. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 2:36:29 PM
Both. I do some work on the side that is outside the scope of that of my employer.
686. CalGal - 9/15/2000 2:41:30 PM
Um, I gave you three choices. (g)
I'm assuming you do the outside work contracting directly to the company? Or through an agency?
It's nice your employer lets you do outside consulting. I know it's outside the scope, but most consulting companies I'm aware of figure you should just bring the work inside their borders. I was one of the reasons I didn't last long in a consulting company.
687. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 2:50:23 PM
Cal: I switched employers recently. It would have been more difficult with my last employer, where they had a very broad focus, but my current employer has a very narrow scope (environmental policy - always my favorite subject), which frees me to do work in other areas. Basically, there were some clients from my last job that I took with me into an independent contracting sideline. Without me there, my last employer lacked anyone who could do the work, so they didn't mind if I stole the work, allowing me to leave without burning bridges.
688. rubberducky - 9/15/2000 2:54:43 PM
Re: Message # 682, CalGal.
Oh, you're starting a business!
sorta. in the loosest of loose terms.
Do you know AdamSelene's email address? Maybe I'll nudge him. He's started a software company from scratch.
well, it's nothing that elaborate. just some internet fun ... something to do in my and his spare time
689. CalGal - 9/15/2000 2:55:36 PM
Oh, okay. I could see a boutique shop allowing moonlighting.
There are a lot of things you can do with your self employment income if you don't rely on it as your main income. I've never been able to, but it always sounds interesting. Have you investigated that?
690. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 2:56:30 PM
investigated how I am going to spend it? You bet. Home Theater, Baby!
691. CalGal - 9/15/2000 2:57:51 PM
Ducky,
Well, loose is the way to go. But you should always plan for success, anyway.
A consulting company wouldn't be interested in your business, but I have a feeling that if Huntington Bank offered you a contract, they'd be a bit peeved if you took it?
692. CalGal - 9/15/2000 2:58:51 PM
Rask,
hahahahaha. (have you bought those cool little goggles yet?)
But from an allocation standpoint, I mean. You have the same income, but you can put more of bucket A away because it's self-employment.
693. CalGal - 9/15/2000 3:00:09 PM
Clarifying this: You have the same income, but you can put more of bucket A away because it's self-employment.
You can still have the Home Entertainment System, but you pay for it differently.
694. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 3:04:24 PM
Cal: I have no use for goggles allowing portable movie viewing, no matter how cool they are. I don't travel enough to justify it.
Regarding allocation, I have too much money in bucket A as it is. Any additional revenue I make is being spent on stuff like home theater or a DSL line.
695. CalGal - 9/15/2000 3:05:28 PM
So no cool writeoffs?
And I know you don't travel enough. On the other hand, think what a godsend it will be for Raskol on long cartrips.
696. jexster - 9/15/2000 3:21:58 PM
Rask - I'm currently studying for my Masters in Public Administration as a possible segue out of law - too stressful.
You mentioned that you worked in quantitatie analysis. While its a bit early for me to decide my emphasis, one that is heavily quantitative is the "Public Policy" emphasis.
I'd be interested in your take especially the opportunity or lack of it that you have to engage with others - are you forever crunching numbers or do you get to go mano a mano with intelligent folk? Is there opportunity for advocacy? What about the creative aspects (as an INTP personality type that's important to me)?
Thanks
697. jexster - 9/15/2000 3:25:59 PM
This is the elective portion of the curriculum. We also have to take a microeconomics applications course & a quantitative methods course for which undergrad research methods and stats are prerequisites:
Ten Unit of Electives
Required Course: PA 780 Policy & Organizational Analysis, 4
Choose two (2) courses from the following:
PA 765--Managing Information in the Public Sector, 4
PA 784--Program Evaluation, 3
ECON 320--Intro. to Econometrics, 3
ECON 805--Seminar: App Analysis in the Public Sector, 3
698. rubberducky - 9/15/2000 3:29:07 PM
Re: Message # 691, CalGal.
A consulting company wouldn't be interested in your business, but I have a feeling that if Huntington Bank offered you a contract, they'd be a bit peeved if you took it?
i'd say it depends on the contract, but i could be wrong. depends on what "business" i'd be getting into and if the consulting company saw that as competition (which may mean, and i'm not sure, if the company offering the contract is a current customer of the consulting company)
PS i was thinking of getting cable access and deducting that expense along with the computer as expense. do you see any problem with that?
699. CalGal - 9/15/2000 3:32:10 PM
No, any computer related cost will be deductible. Again, you should get a book and read up on it.
700. rubberducky - 9/15/2000 3:35:02 PM
i know
grumble grumble
701. CalGal - 9/15/2000 3:39:33 PM
I'm not trying to shoo you away here; questions are fine. I just think that you should also read up on this and get a feel for it. Especially since you're doing it with a friend.
702. rubberducky - 9/15/2000 3:40:45 PM
book suggestions?
703. CalGal - 9/15/2000 3:54:40 PM
Ducky,
At the time I did it, I went to the library to read up. This was pre-Amazon, can you imagine? I was actually quite depressed because no book addressed my work model. Still doesn't, in my mind.
But Idiots Guides are always a good place to start.
704. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 4:11:47 PM
You mentioned that you worked in quantitatie analysis. While its a bit
early for me to decide my emphasis, one that is heavily quantitative is the "Public Policy" emphasis.
I have an MA in Public Affairs, basically an MPA. I believe a few others do as well, such as Slackjaw, and Bubbaette or Diva. My focus was in policy analysis, which went the quant route.
"I'd be interested in your take especially the opportunity or lack of it that you have to engage with others - are you forever crunching
numbers or do you get to go mano a mano with intelligent folk? Is
there opportunity for advocacy? What about the creative aspects (as
an INTP personality type that's important to me)?"
The world is run by those who can do math. PA degrees are a dime a dozen, but in my experience those who can crunch the numbers have a lot more opportunities, as they have rarer skills that are in great demand. Too many PA grads hate math. The quant courses are a pain in the ass to take, with lots of niggling work and concepts which fry your brain, but once you actually know them, they come in very useful. I wish I had taken many more stats courses than courses in those off-the-wall areas that sounded fun at the time but no one ever uses (we had three different classes offered for population policy in China, a subject worth one seminar once every two years, but three classes a year???). I also wish to God that they had bothered to teach a fucking course in project management, as that is a huge portion of almost every job I have had.
705. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 4:11:54 PM
Regarding social interaction, it depends where you work. I, myself, am an extrovert, and have turned down several job offers where it looked like I would be crunching numbers in a dark corner where you only see co-workers at weekly meetings. Instead, I took my first job with a consulting group where I was the closest they had to a quant expert. I ended up doing a mixture of number crunching and qualitative (interviewing, focus groups, facilitation) work. I took my current job because of policy interests, and because it was a similar work environment, quantitative work in a more extroverted environment.
In short, it is quite possible to not get a bean-counting job as a quant worker. You just have to look for it, and have some aptitudes outside of numbers and software (mine were facilitation skills, teaching experience, project management, writing, and customer service).
706. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 4:19:20 PM
Jex: good policy analysts/program evaluators are always creative. You have to come up with some oddball ways of getting data sometimes. Advocacy depends very much on where you work, but keep in mind that the nature of good quantitative analysis is objectivity, and to go where the data takes you, not to take the data where you want to go. This doesn't mean that you can't advocate, but that you advocate based on what your research tells you. To that end there is some opportunity.
707. jexster - 9/15/2000 4:21:11 PM
Thanks Rask....You're confirming something that's been percolating in my brain as I go thru this. As an addition to my legal background, I am starting to think that math oriented subjects (econometrics, stats and the like) may pay greater dividends than say a half dozen courses in transportation, housing, development and the like although one or two of those might be fun.
I mean I'm not really interested in learning the ins and outs of fixing potholes.
708. racehorse - 9/15/2000 4:24:43 PM
The one interview I was supposed to have this afternoon hasn't called. And the dotcom hasn't responded to the e-mail of my availability Wednesday evening.
Suggestions?
709. jexster - 9/15/2000 4:25:36 PM
to go where the data takes you, not to take the data
where you want to go.
And you're telling this to a lawyer?!?!??! I *always* take data where I want to go and dare the other to figure out where I am wrong :)
I had a case once involving a product liability claim for what my client thought was a defective computer chip manufacture QC testing machine...the guy had a PhD in Stats from Berkeley; works at one of the big biotech companies in Silicon Valley doing statistical analyses of the most promising lines of research. He also worked at Lawrence Livermore on bombs.
I absolutely blew his mind with the "misuses" of statistical proof that I conjured up....On the other hand, the opposing counsel had no idea what to make of all that mathematical gibberish we came up with either!
710. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 4:27:07 PM
"PA 765--Managing Information in the Public Sector, 4"
This is becoming a huge need for the public sector. Even with my meager skills in this area a few of my clients have tried hiring me based on the fact that I knew how to write an Access application and convert data from one format to another. But only go here if you want to.
"PA 784--Program Evaluation, 3"
This is a lot of what I do. I took a similar course.
"ECON 320--Intro. to Econometrics, 3"
Econometrics is basically advanced regression analysis. I have rarely seen regression done in policy analysis, mostly because none of your clients or legislators will understand what the fuck you are talking about. There are a few exceptions however, and if nothing else econometrics is very helpful in conceptually modelling certain policy issues.
"ECON 805--Seminar: App Analysis in the Public Sector, 3"
Not sure what this means. If it is what it sounds like it is a very good course idea, as PA grad schools are often too academic, telling you how to deal with heteroskedasticity when your most common problem is how the hell to deal with a lot of missing data fields.
As always, the quality of these classes will significantly depend on the instructor. One of my "wish I had known then" rules of thumb is to never take a course based solely on its title - always read through the course evaluations and see if the instructor has an iota of teaching ability.
711. jexster - 9/15/2000 4:29:56 PM
Race-Call 'em; pester the bastards, show you're reliable, polite, persistent and interested even if they may not be....and don't give a shit about what they think
712. Raskolnikov - 9/15/2000 4:30:05 PM
"And you're telling this to a lawyer?!?!??! I *always* take data where
I want to go and dare the other to figure out where I am wrong :) "
That is why I brought it up. Objectivity and Policy analysts go (or should go) hand in hand, lawyers and objectivity are often arch enemies.
713. CalGal - 9/15/2000 4:31:38 PM
You had a phone interview scheduled this afternoon and they didn't call? Do you have a number for them? If so, call them up and say you figure something else came up--do they want to reschedule? Worst case is they say oh, we hired someone internal. But at least then you know.
On the availability one, it's easier--do you have a number? Call them if so and say you're trying to fix up your interview schedule, when will they be able to give you a date?
That being said, the absolute worst part of it is the fact that other people get busy or distracted and can often go months without moving on a req. Makes me nuts, but it's pretty normal (as I'm sure you know). My take is always not to overkill on the nagging, even if it means that you go off and get another job in the meantime.
Are you keeping a log? With all those submissions, you might want to try it.
714. jexster - 9/15/2000 4:32:50 PM
ECON 805 - graduate econ seminar, thesis prep type thing...we also have to do a "culminating experience" which can be the traditional thesis or a case study type thing....either way, if heavy quant. analysis is involved in the experience, this is a good course to get credit for work that you are doing that otherwise would not get the credit as "culminating experience"
They do this in the other emphases as well just in the policy sci or urban studies depts.
715. theDiva - 9/15/2000 4:33:30 PM
Rask
Thanks, but you've overqualified me. I might have the equivalent due to on-the-job training, but not the paper to prove it.
Jex, in any event, I do a fair bit of analysis (like 75% of my job) and have to employ a great deal of critical and creative thinking. We collect our performance data on a monthly basis, and report on it annually; the heavy-duty stuff we contract out. The contractor collects the data and preesents it to us, we analyze it and present it to the pols. Depending on what you want to do, I suppose you could go directly to a government analyst position such as I've got (but probably higher up the ladder due to your experience and education), or to an outside PA organization to do more hands-on designing of survey models, analysis and so forth. Obviously you'd need the number stuff either way, but I would also say that you should take a few courses on the basic gubment stuff just to get a feel for how it works from the inside. It will probably help you form your opinions more soundly and help you speak the language.
As for mano a mano, you know how many meetings I go to. Gotta love em.
Hope this helps.
716. CalGal - 9/15/2000 4:33:45 PM
BTW, Jex's advice about pestering, while directly in conflict with mine, is often successful. I personally can't stand nagging people, and if I were a manager who got persistent calls from potential employees I'd go beserk. But there is no question that a lot of people recommend that approach and often get results.
717. jexster - 9/15/2000 4:36:13 PM
I didn't mean to be obnoxious about it. But you have to show that you are persistent and interested IMO and take your committments very seriously.
Its like dating to me. You don't get anywhere by sitting around and wondering whether she'll call....
718. CalGal - 9/15/2000 4:38:39 PM
Jex,
No, I knew exactly what you meant. It's not my approach--and most people I know in high tech feel the same way about it. But there's no question that it often works.
I just call it "nagging" because that's what it feels like to me.
719. racehorse - 9/15/2000 4:52:52 PM
I don't have a log, just printouts of the job descriptions and notes of any action of the "account." I made one phone call, will make the other on Monday (they should be ending the business day in 15 minutes).
CG: are you able to access TT? I haven't been able to get in for almost two hours.
720. CalGal - 9/15/2000 4:56:59 PM
No, I've been in all day, but it has been a bit slow at times. Also, I'm local--so if a router or something is down, it could give me access and deprive you.
Try tracert tabletalk.salon.com and see where it gets hung up.
About the other call? Try calling. If you get them on the line, you might make progress. But don't leave a message if they're not there.
721. racehorse - 9/15/2000 5:02:21 PM
What is tracert tabletalk.salon.com?
Making other call now...
722. racehorse - 9/15/2000 5:03:08 PM
Now it's working. I just deleted the ? at the end of the URL. Must be a bug.
723. racehorse - 9/15/2000 5:32:07 PM
Got the dotcom interview set up for next Friday! There must be some problem with my e-mail--I didn't get a reply even though they say they sent it a couple of days ago.
724. CalGal - 9/15/2000 5:35:20 PM
Hey, that's great! Was this the end of day call, or the other?
Do you have web access to your email? That's a good way to check it if you're worried about your connection. Also, raise hell with your ISP. You don't need that sort of communication problem right now.
725. racehorse - 9/15/2000 5:40:40 PM
I don't know what the problem is yet. I'm getting tons and tons of e-mail now. My husband or I check the e-mail.
This was an end-of-the-day call. I gave him my hotmail addy and he's sending directions to me.
726. CalGal - 9/15/2000 5:47:44 PM
Well, good luck. Did you find out what happened with the phone interview?
727. racehorse - 9/15/2000 5:53:01 PM
No, it went into voice mail. I'll call back on Monday.
728. CalGal - 9/15/2000 5:54:44 PM
Incidentally, if they aren't real apologetic about blowing it off, take it as a warning. It's not enough to throw them out completely, but it's tacky.
729. joezan - 9/15/2000 11:49:54 PM
uzmakk - Message # 677:
joezan:
I asked you a question in the Slowthread a while ago and did not get
a response. You live in Michigan and work with gold leaf? Have
some kind of Christian Museum close by?
Sorry, uz - I never saw it.
And no, not goldleaf. I dabble in calligraphy, and would like to teach myself illumination.
Funny you should ask about the "Christian Museum" (The Scriptorium Center for Christian Antiquities, actually). The guy who just bought the house next to mine and I got into a conversation about the man who owned the place (till he died last year and left billions), Robert VanKampen. It seems this neighbor was up at the VanKampen compound doing some work just a couple of weeks ago, and he reported to me that the Scriptorium is now mothballed.
According to this guy, there are plans afoot to move the whole collection, as well as one nearly as comprehensive that VanKampen kept at his castle in England, to Orlando, Fl.
I kid you not, uzmakk - this guy claims the VanKampen heirs are planning to open a Christian theme park.
730. racehorse - 9/18/2000 12:39:40 PM
Hm...tabletalk doesn't seem to be working at all today.
Got more bites on my resume, and about 40 hits on my site today. I have two interviews to do today over the phone. The company I interviewed with last Thursday called to say they needed my OK to check references. A company that does streaming media in Sili Valley has e-mailed me their interest--they actually accidentally e-mailed me a response that was intended for internal distribution, commenting on the "jazziness" of a photo on it.
A DC-based PR firm and another firm with four offices across the country want to talk to me today. I sent out another 300 resumes over the weekend.
Wonder when and how I'm going to get any work done today!
731. CalGal - 9/18/2000 12:42:16 PM
Wow, that's fantastic. Nice feedback about the picture, huh?
TT was up earlier--it's down right now. My guess is they're fixing the bug that kept everyone out over the weekend.
732. CalGal - 9/18/2000 12:50:22 PM
ACtually, salon.com itself is down. Maybe they're out of money. (g)
733. racehorse - 9/18/2000 12:56:22 PM
Yes--all that yakking!
I'm of two minds about having photos on my web page--I'm leaving them up for now. Cheesecake sells in PR.
My schedule+ is down. My e-mail is screwed up. I'm frantically sifting through my files to find out who I'm calling, and when.
734. CalGal - 9/18/2000 2:06:33 PM
I remember when MB and I told you to lose the pictures (over at Tabletalk), because we didn't think they were appropriate. But hell, we're just high-tech geeks. What do we know about PR?
See, if you weren't so organized you wouldn't have these problems when your system breaks down. Let that be a lesson.
Man, I am depressed about both the contracts I'm working right now. They are both not progressing. One is badly organized and poorly defined. The other has had terrible vendor problems. I'm feeling increasing frustration because I can't get anything done.
And on top of everything else, I am being forced into a tech geek role, which is just not what I do. I am not interested in situations where I have to tweak technical specs just to get things running. I want something that works so I can design and implement--and at these sites, that was supposed to be the case. Only problem is, nothing works and there's no one around to do the work to get the system ready for me. I don't have the knowledge, inclination, or, frankly, the intention of doing it. So it's a matter of wait, then hurry up until the next showstopper comes along. I'm ready to drop them both.
735. racehorse - 9/18/2000 2:14:30 PM
Calling back the company the company that thought this "girl" has a "jazzy" photo on her web page. And I have the final phone interview with the company that wanted my references today at 4:30.
Sorry about your contract problems. I guess that's part of the reason I'd rather be a direct employee than a contractor.
736. CalGal - 9/18/2000 2:16:15 PM
Well, work problems come with being a direct employee, too. Otherwise, no one would ever look for a job.
The difference is that a contractor doens't deal well with job frustration--that's why they're contractors.
737. racehorse - 9/18/2000 2:20:15 PM
OMG! 120 hits--I just checked my site about 2 hours ago and it was less than 50!
Contractor v. direct employee. I think it's just a matter of personality. My husband prefers to work as a contractor, while I do not.
738. CalGal - 9/18/2000 2:24:49 PM
I think it's just a matter of personality.
It certainly has been up to now. In the future, I think many people who are more comfortable with direct employment will be more likely to go into contracting or some form of freelancing.
As a general rule, I think employment vs. contracting comes down to how an individual defines risk. Which is, as you note, a matter of personality.
739. racehorse - 9/18/2000 2:31:16 PM
That's a good point about risk. My husband has periods of feast and famine in his work--either he's got tons of money in the bank or he's down to his last nickle and ready to beg, borrow or steal for the next gig. My work is a lot more stable, but in some ways, perhaps less interesting than his.
740. PelleNilsson - 9/18/2000 3:37:06 PM
joezan
I've been away for a few days and just now I backtracked this thread. Congratulations! I was involved in a similar effort a few years ago. I don't think anybody who hasn't been there really understands the level of effort and the painstaking attention to detail that goes into it. I hope you glow with satisfaction. I would.
741. racehorse - 9/18/2000 5:34:09 PM
Had one short interview--they want to fill the position before I would be able to move, which I am guessing would be within a couple of months (provided I got the right deal).
The other interview was really just a short phone call--the woman complained that the e-mail addy said "Michael" while my name is not Michael. The e-mail is in my husband's name, I suppose, although I don't know how that would happen. Maybe it's a feature of Outlook. Anyway, she wanted me to *overnight* clips, PR plans, etc. to her attention in Boston. I said OK, then thought about it after I hung up. Why not a fax--doesn't want to "tie up fax machine." Why not an e-mail attachment? Doesn't trust e-mail attachments.
OK...don't think I'll be *overnighting* anything, thank you very much.
One more e-mail response from a headhunter in Austin--they say they will call me back. Still waiting for the EA company to call. I may give them a call in a few minutes if I don't hear from them.
742. CalGal - 9/18/2000 5:36:14 PM
You can set up different accounts in Outlook--have you done that? I agree about the fedex bit--that's expensive. Why should you have to package it all up and send it out?
743. racehorse - 9/18/2000 5:40:25 PM
Yeah! Why not fax and e-mail? Get with the times, lady!
I'll talk to my husband about the different Outlook accounts. Since we're both looking, it would probably be a good idea.
744. CalGal - 9/18/2000 5:49:20 PM
Well, you'd need two different email addresses, too. But that's pretty easy to set up with most ISPs.
745. racehorse - 9/18/2000 6:40:22 PM
My husband says I got tons of e-mail. And I just another response on my hotmail account, asking me to set up an interview.
Interviewed with the EA company. They still sound very interested, but the money issue is still a big issue.
746. CalGal - 9/18/2000 6:44:36 PM
I think you're right to stick to your guns. How big is the gap again? (percentage, obviously, no need to be specific)
747. racehorse - 9/18/2000 6:48:07 PM
They are suggesting a maximum 20 percent increase. My research indicates that in this market, I can expect at least that much, and as much at 50 percent PLUS.
Which is a pretty big difference.
748. CalGal - 9/18/2000 6:53:49 PM
Absolutely. Why is it that you had to give your salary history? I've never been asked, but I always advise people to say that it's not available. In most cases, this worked. In the cases where it didn't work, the person just said, "Then I'm not interested in working for you."
749. racehorse - 9/18/2000 6:56:14 PM
I haven't given my salary history--they have a range that has been decided by a pre-existing budget. There doesn't appear to be any way around it, but they are "talking about" a bonus plan for 2001.
750. CalGal - 9/18/2000 6:59:39 PM
Oh, I see. I thought they were looking at your existing salary. I don't like salaries that are set by budget, and I think "talking about" is a synonym for "are you silly enough to take this as a promise"? (g)
751. quivver - 9/19/2000 12:22:07 AM
I have a quick question. How does one get into consulting/contracting? I want to start taking on short term contracts as a way to pick up experience managing projects while I gain technical experience at my proper job. I figure in 6-12 months, the combination of several completed contracts and a massive completed project at my real job should free me up to choose either full time or further contract work. I just don't quite know how to start. Any tips would be most appreciated.
aem.
752. CalGal - 9/19/2000 8:52:58 AM
Quivver,
Are you trying to work a full time job and get moonlighting contracts?
753. quivver - 9/19/2000 3:35:32 PM
Pretty much, for the moment. Six months doing contracts on top of my job and maybe six more after that before I decide between contracting or full time employment.
754. CalGal - 9/19/2000 3:37:52 PM
Hmm. Do you have a good source of part-time contracts? That's where I would see the difficulty. Although these days it is much easier to get part-time gigs than ever before, since the demand is so high.
Have you checked out DICE and Monster?
755. quivver - 9/19/2000 3:45:30 PM
I check Monster often, but they don't tend to have part time anything in my specialty, unless it is something dodgy and uncertain (as in fly by night). It's all full time work. But I will see what DICE has.
756. CalGal - 9/19/2000 3:51:14 PM
You may want to try posting your availability, rather than applying for specific gigs. When the headhunter calls you back, you tell them that you tied up another gig pretty quickly, but you're interested in part time work--preferably dial-in at times. You'd be willing to work x hours a week.
You'd have to be able to spend some of that time during regular business hours--although not necessarily on a regular basis.
757. quivver - 9/19/2000 4:03:40 PM
I do so hate working during the day. I suppose I should clean up my resume too. That's going to suck. ;D
758. quivver - 9/19/2000 4:17:07 PM
Oh dear. Quick stupid question. How much am I supposed to list for hourly rate? I have approximately junior levels in database administration, nt administration and project management.
759. CalGal - 9/19/2000 4:21:57 PM
Hmm again. If you're junior, you're not going to have much luck getting part-time work. I am not sure what rate you should look for. As a general rule, I'd start with $50 and see what happens. That's assuming that you really are junior--some people tend to underestimate their skill level. Look in DICE for jobs that you're qualified for. See what rates are listed. If no rates are listed, that's a good sign--it means $50 and up is reasonable. If rates are listed, use them as a starting point.
760. CalGal - 9/19/2000 4:23:35 PM
You know, I shouldn't have said you won't have too much luck. You might, it just depends on the market. I just wanted to be clear that there will be less openings. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try--quite the contrary,I think it's great to see what sort of options are available. Hiring corporations are becoming more and more flexible these days.
761. quivver - 9/19/2000 11:31:31 PM
Thanks for the advice. By the way, what on earth does DOE or 'market' mean in salary listings? Current range is 50ish-150ish for everything from full to contract. And the contracts tend to be in years (?!). Anyhow, it looks like I need to go ahead and get sorted with Oracle and Java. ;D
aem.
762. CalGal - 9/19/2000 11:34:30 PM
DOE-Depends on Experience. This usually means more than $50/hour. It's rare for Dice, at least, to list the higher rates.
763. jexster - 9/20/2000 1:15:08 AM
Rask - Just picked up my SPSS v.10 Graduate Pak. Ready to rock 'n roll (if I could only understand what all this shit means!)
764. quivver - 9/20/2000 1:52:11 AM
SPSS is easy to work with and makes stat stuff a breeze. At least version 6.0 did.
765. greystoke - 9/20/2000 12:02:21 PM
Seminoles want alligator wrestlers.
Despite generous pay and benefits, "We just don't have enough alligator wrestlers," said Alexandra Frank, operations manager at Seminole Okalee Village, a small museum and tourist stop between Miami and Fort Lauderdale on the Seminole Reservation.
For decades, Seminoles here have entertained tourists by wrestling alligators. But now, Seminoles say, there is a shortage of young people within the tribe who want to go into the line of work, preferring college, e-commerce, casinos and, well, anything else.
So, tribe officials are trying to recruit alligator wrestlers, and "just because someone's not a Seminole, doesn't mean we'll look down on them," Frank said.
The tribe even advertised in The Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel newspaper. "WANTED: Alligator wrestlers. Must be brave and a risk taker. Males and females OK. No experience needed."
So far, only a few people have applied. Most have been rejected.
"Ain't very many of them going to have a chance of getting a job," said Bailey, a powerfully built 22-year-old who is not a Seminole but does have a stepfather who is part Choctaw. "Most of them just weren't any good."
And, says Bailey, there is really no such thing as a bad alligator wrestler.
"They'll kill you in a second," he said, "or if you're lucky, they'll just tear your fingers off."
Earlier this year, the chief of the Seminoles, James Bille, lost a finger while wrestling an alligator in a tourist stop in the Everglades.
"More and more, Seminoles pursue other careers," Frank said. "They're being told again and again to go pursue a college education. It would be nice to keep it a tradition, but it's their choice."
766. racehorse - 9/20/2000 3:08:40 PM
I think the EA company is set to offer me. They called back and spoke with me for 20 minutes--they are trying to structure a deal that would bring me up to the 50 percent more of my current salary within two years. Of course, this would all be in writing.
If they can do that, I would be sorely tempted to take it. It seems like an awesome opportunity.
767. quivver - 9/20/2000 9:13:36 PM
Random chick called me from some consortium consultant group thing. Apparently I am entry level because all the hats I wear are about a year old. But since I didn't want to start until January, that gives me time to pick up another six months of job experience. I might send them my resume, but I don't know. Didn't mention my current salary though, heh! It was interesting and they want me to come in anyhow for placement. So, resume-clearing-up time. W00.
aem.
768. CalGal - 9/21/2000 1:49:56 AM
Race,
Make sure it's in writing. If it's not in writing, take it only if you think you'll be satisfied without the raise. I can't tell you the number of people who take a job contingent on ephemera. (if that's not a word, it should be.)
Quivver,
Actually, it's the type of work you do that determines your level, more than the amount of time. So make sure you write up your resume to emphasize the type of work you do--particularly if it involves analysis or design.
769. rubberducky - 9/21/2000 8:31:46 AM
i've never heard of IT people getting such pay plan as race mentions.
is this normal for the industry?
770. CalGal - 9/21/2000 10:29:16 AM
Well, it's normal for people to promise. But I never rely on it. Even if the hiring manager means to keep the promise, there are about 50 things that can interfere--reorgs, budgets, the hiring manager leaves, the project and funding changes, and so on.
But if racehorse gets it in writing, that would be unusual, in my experience.
771. racehorse - 9/21/2000 10:45:12 AM
I would never consider doing it if it wasn't in writing.
My interview with the dotcom is tomorrow. I'm researching their competitors, the VC company that funds them, and the B&M company that is their other major funder.
The EA company is making a decision by tomorrow.
772. racehorse - 9/25/2000 11:06:35 AM
The EA company did not make the decision on Friday. I will have a round-robin meeting (possibly including the president) with them on Wednesday.
The dotcom interview went OK--their hiring process is long, so we'll see. I'm still in contact with a couple of recruiters on the West Coast, and have recently generated interest with a paint company in New Jersey.
773. CalGal - 9/26/2000 2:12:22 AM
Employers Pinched by Increasing Care Costs
If you use an HMO with an employer, be aware. The costs are gonna go way up, which means your premiums are going to skyrocket. Small companies will get hit before large companies, but the costs will eventually be reflected everywhere. And this is only the first wave of increases.
You might want to switch to a fee for service plan, if you have one. It may look expensive, but the costs aren't going to increase much--they took their hits in the late 80s.
I really wish that we'd sever the link between employment and health insurance.
774. racehorse - 9/28/2000 11:08:54 AM
The EA company called to offer me the job. They can't wait a week for a decision, so I told them they'd hear from me on Monday by noon.
They are offering a 20 percent increase over my current salary. Standard benefits, no tuition reimbursement, no clear career path.
The job itself sounds wonderful; the commitment from the company is not what I need at this point.
775. CalGal - 9/28/2000 11:11:57 AM
You don't have to relocate for this job, correct?
776. racehorse - 9/28/2000 11:17:50 AM
No. But it won't help me with grad school, and the income level won't allow us to be a one-income family. Plus, this is not a high-growth industry (although it *is* a high-growth company).
And it's a good $15K to $20K below what my research indicates is the market rate.
777. CalGal - 9/28/2000 11:25:10 AM
Here is my thinking, although I don't know your field. Your job search up to now has been slow. There are lots of results, but it moves slowly. Why not take the job? It is 20% more. You don't have to consider it the job, just a way to make more money until you get the job. Hell, you don't even have to put it on your resume right now as you continue interviewing.
If any of the jobs take off and look likely by Monday, great. If not, why not get out of this job, take the extra money, sock it away, and keep looking? You can afford to be pickier. And you don't have to feel any compunction about leaving this job in a few months--because remember, any job might dump you at a moment's notice.
This probably seems like odd advice. But suppose you turn it down and you go another six months before you get an interesting offer again. That was six months you could have been making more money.
778. racehorse - 9/28/2000 2:45:16 PM
If I take a job, then leave before a year is up, I'll look like a job-hopper. I think it's got to be a place I'd be happy to work at for the next five years or so.
779. CalGal - 9/28/2000 2:54:48 PM
Not in today's market, you wouldn't. You won't look like a job hopper. You had been anxious to get out of non-profit work, you had an offer that made more money, you worked the job until you found the one that interested you.
You've been clear with this company that you wanted more money, they won't take it amiss if you receive a much better offer.
The one concern would be if you got an offer within a month of starting the new job, but in that event I'd just quit the first job (with due notice) and not put it on your resume.
780. racehorse - 9/28/2000 3:00:45 PM
Those are good points, as well.
My husband and I will be discussing this weekend.
781. racehorse - 9/28/2000 3:03:46 PM
BTW, how would I handle explaining current job duties, if I decided to take this job and keep looking?
782. CalGal - 9/28/2000 3:21:25 PM
I would leave your resume alone for the moment, just put the end date on the current job when you leave. At two months, add the new job but say that you took it on a trial basis, or something.
783. CalGal - 9/28/2000 3:23:06 PM
Or you can be honest and just say that you wanted time to look for the perfect job. This job was interesting, but didn't have what you wanted and wasn't able to pay you what you required. However, they needed someone in a hurry and you decided that both they and you would be better off with you working with them until you found what you really wanted.
Yeah, I like that better. I still wouldn't put it on your resume until you'd been there a month or so.
784. rubberducky - 9/28/2000 3:32:31 PM
Re: Message # 781, racehorse.
BTW, how would I handle explaining current job duties, if I decided to take this job and keep looking?
why would the explanation be any different just because you're looking for another job? if you include it, that is.
785. CalGal - 9/28/2000 3:35:34 PM
Well, she doesn't want an entry on her resume for two weeks, I think is what she's saying.
786. racehorse - 9/28/2000 6:21:45 PM
Thanks for the advice.
If I decide to keep looking, I'll just keep looking, and not look to another position to tide me over. I've got some good prospects going now, so I'm pretty confident I will find something soon.
787. lemwalker - 9/28/2000 7:46:31 PM
This is one of my favorite 'threads'. Always say 'I couldn't live like that' after reading. Am so glad I am not urbanite, or urbane for that matter.
Lay out timber sales. Clearcuts. Used to be a logger, back when the harvest was old growth. Now it is all 2nd growth, 50 years old or better. Yesterday saw a total of 3 other human beings. One at work, one at the local resort/store, and my dear child bride.
Just stumbled into being a forester. They were looking for a fool who liked wandering around in the woods by himself, and didn't mind being too hot, cold, wet or thirsty.
It must be one of the best jobs on the planet. Don't need to exercise. There is no one to blame but yourself. And deoderant attracts stinging insects! Traffic consists of .... well, there isn't any.
788. labwabbit - 9/28/2000 8:07:14 PM
lem
Common history shared I suspect.
789. CalGal - 9/28/2000 8:08:55 PM
Lem,
I am honored by your favoritism, even if we only serve as an example of how not to live.
I like isolation, actually, but I need people around while I'm engaging in it.
790. lemwalker - 9/28/2000 8:11:57 PM
Honestly, CalGal, it doesn't hurt as much to fall down when no is watching.
791. CalGal - 9/28/2000 8:13:03 PM
I believe it. Unfortunately, I'm so paranoid that I'd decide the squirrels were laughing their tails off.
792. labwabbit - 9/28/2000 8:16:14 PM
I like isolation, actually, but I need people around while I'm engaging in it.
Time to take a breath of fresh air? Step away from the PC for a moment. Breath in....breath out....
Now walk to the medicine cabinet and talk 1 yellow and 2 blue ones.
You'll feel better in no time.
793. labwabbit - 9/28/2000 8:17:38 PM
#790
...and you don't have to get up until your ready.
794. CalGal - 9/28/2000 8:18:10 PM
I go outside. I just need to be near people, and then usually stay away from them. If I really did get away from people, I suspect I would slowly retreat inwards and never come back.
795. labwabbit - 9/28/2000 8:31:11 PM
Make that 2 yellow ones then.
796. CalGal - 9/28/2000 8:35:14 PM
Lem,
How long have you been a forester? Why did you give up logging?
797. lemwalker - 9/29/2000 6:58:14 PM
7years. I got too old.
798. lemwalker - 9/29/2000 7:00:07 PM
Can't always just do one thing.
799. lemwalker - 9/29/2000 7:05:51 PM
Am trying to get my first double aught.
800. lemwalker - 9/29/2000 7:06:31 PM
'Tis a hollow victory
801. rubberducky - 10/3/2000 9:11:39 AM
evidently, there's more to a job than money:
Before opening the paper, logging on to the Internet or running off 200 copies of a resume, job seekers should strike a lotus position and do some serious soul-searching--literally.
"People spend too much time evaluating potential opportunities, and not enough time evaluating themselves and what's important to them," says Celia Crossley, career strategist and owner of Celia D. Crossley & Associates in Columbus, Ohio. "A little reflective time speeds up the job search because you know what's important to you." Self-discovery not only saves time, it also helps to reduce a job seeker's chances of making the wrong decision.
satisfaction -satissmackion. gimme da cash
802. racehorse - 10/3/2000 10:22:18 AM
Got an e-mail, "thanks but no thanks," yesterday.
Oh...the rejection!
Other than that, things are going swimmingly. Have lots of interest from PR firms these days, and good interest from a mega-software company. Sent a rejection to the EA company I spoke about upthread. Feeling more positively about the whole job search.
803. msgreer - 10/4/2000 2:28:44 PM
800-973-2211. Curious? Go to Health Thread.
804. racehorse - 10/4/2000 5:22:00 PM
Hey! SPAM!
Why is the title of E and C changed?
805. ChristinO - 10/4/2000 5:35:02 PM
Racehorse,
This thread has gotten fairly slow of late and there was a request by the host and others to retire it. It will appear in the archives once it is closed and if interest sparks up again it can be re-vived at a later date.
Keep us informed about your job adventures in the Cafe if you like. We're always interested in what's new with folks there!
806. PsychProf - 10/5/2000 4:08:00 PM
I was hoping this would remain an anchor thread...a topic area with continuing interest and relevance. The abilty for a newcomer to ask Cal and others about employment and career seemed to me to be a fine idea.
807. CalGal - 10/5/2000 7:18:32 PM
PP,
Well, I've enjoyed this thread a lot, but I didn't really intend for it to be a perennial.
It might be nice to assign a regular place in the future for people to ask job related questions.
I have no real objection to it staying open, of course, but I don't want it to be considered "dead" or neglected.
808. rubberducky - 10/5/2000 9:22:22 PM
i fail to see why the Slow Thread couldn't pick up the odd question once a month
809. Uzmakk - 10/6/2000 8:25:29 AM
Actually, Cal, this thread could prove theraputic for me, but if it dissappears I will work my therapy into another thread.
810. CalGal - 10/6/2000 1:01:00 PM
Why, are you looking for a job?
811. CalGal - 10/7/2000 12:00:55 PM
Did anyone hear about the Bechtel ruling in California?
High Court's Ruling Trims Workers Rights
In a decision that gives businesses greater latitude in reducing their workforces, the California Supreme Court ruled yesterday that an employer can fire an employee if the company has a legitimate business reason to do so.
The decision is widely regarded as the most important workplace ruling in a dozen years, establishing guidelines for when an employer can fire an employee. It affects every private worker in the state not protected by a union or an employment contract. Most California workers are not covered by an express contract.
Employers say the ruling will give them more leeway in firing employees as a legitimate means of cutting costs and increasing profits.
``This is the most important California Supreme Court employment decision'' since 1988, said Paul Grossman, a lawyer for Bechtel, which was defending itself in a suit brought by a former employee.
It's so odd. I thought this was already the case. Employment law in California just got a lot more boring.
812. labwabbit - 10/9/2000 12:53:34 PM
813. Uzmakk - 10/10/2000 7:21:37 PM
Cal 810:
No, just shuffling and expanding a bit.
814. CalGal - 10/10/2000 7:39:37 PM
You are gaining weight? (g)
Expanding business, responsibilities, or scope of ambition?
815. marshame - 10/11/2000 8:33:56 AM
Why is it that as soon as a thread gets an RIP, I suddenly get the inspiration to post?
My boss is about to leave for 3+ weeks out of the country, and I can hardly wait!!! However, to ensure that I do not enjoy myself too much while he's gone, he has given me an assignment: come up with a solution to the day laborers problem.
We have the problem, probably like many communities with lots of building and development going on, where informal locations occur when men congregate (99% hispanic) and wait to be picked up by contractors and others wanting workers by the day. Sometimes, a hundred men can congregate, and this causes all kinds of problems such as traffic congestion, littering, people urinating in public, men rushing up to cars and especially trucks thinking they want workers, etc. This problem also has elements of racist reaction ("we don't want those people in our neighborhood") code problems (15 people living in one apartment) and of course, the INS who is not interested in raiding the place, although that's what a lot of people think will permanently disperse them.
Gee, I wonder if I can solve this in 3 weeks. Plan is to set up a meeting with the regionally based State and Fed employment people, and also start looking for a location where we might establish an acceptable place for workers and employers to converge.
816. bubbaette - 10/11/2000 8:42:25 AM
A was a day laborer for a while during breaks in college. We'd meet in a corner of the parking lot of a local shopping center. Of course since this was in a fairly small town (Appomattox) there were usually no more than 15 people waiting.
817. CalGal - 10/11/2000 9:46:30 AM
Marsha,
The big push is to unionize day laborers, which seems to be missing the whole point--like, say, how do you formalize a workforce that is entirely illegal? Or are the workers in your area legal?
818. CalGal - 10/11/2000 9:47:43 AM
I just remembered that you're from Texas, so I suppose that last question is a gimme.
819. PsychProf - 10/11/2000 9:49:43 AM
I again want to lobby for making this thread an anchortype...it makes the Mote useful as well as interesting. Having some one like Cal there to answer employment questions is a significant plus, IMO.
820. bubbaette - 10/11/2000 9:50:16 AM
Lay laborers are not necessarily illegal workers, but work on a day to day basis depending on whether they show up or not. Here in Richmond, most of the people in the job lines look to be homeless, not illegal aliens.
821. pogie - 10/11/2000 9:54:15 AM
You know, richmond's going to be an exurb of houston Real Soon Now. ;D
822. pogie - 10/11/2000 9:55:57 AM
On a w*rk related note, how would one go about asking for a raise after an extended absence from work?
823. bubbaette - 10/11/2000 9:56:07 AM
More likely I think it's going to be one big burb stretching down I95 from New York City to Florida.
824. CalGal - 10/11/2000 10:02:06 AM
Bubba,
It depends on the area, obviously. But in most places where the number of day laborers is sufficient to unionize, I would wager that the majority of them are illegal.
PP,
I'll mention it to Christin and Pelle and defer to their judgment. From my perspective, I don't mind having it here as a place for advice and work discussions, so long as it isn't viewed as "dead".
Pogie,
I'd need to know more, but for starters, you shouldn't even consider the extended absence as a factor. It's not something to be justified, but to be ignored. If your manager brings it up, you will look at him/her oddly--what a silly notion. I am worth a certain amount of money at this point in time. In an absolute sense, I am not paid based on past performance, but on my market value. My current salary is below market and this needs to be corrected.
(all those I's are you, of course.)
825. pogie - 10/11/2000 10:14:54 AM
I have extraordinarily poor health, but when I'm at work, I get more done than the other 3 employees all together, heh. I effectively need my current salary doubled to get what is the proper amount (I started out doing a job with a much lower classification and am now doing stuff that is classified at a much higher pay rate). Also, my last timesheet has been lost in the aether, which is distinctly unhelpful. I may threaten to quit, which would completely screw my boss, since I am the only one who can actually get our current projects completed by next month (which is the hard deadline finally, after three months of soft ones.) It's a bit of a mess at work these days. ;D
s.
826. CalGal - 10/11/2000 10:15:50 AM
Are you a contract worker, or employee?
827. pogie - 10/11/2000 10:28:34 AM
Employee. Different types of work are classed at x hourly rate. The more complex the tasks, the more you get. There is a cap on semimonthly pay, but departments get around that by using one time payments or biweekly pay. So my boss could pay me, and has offered. However, this was before he hired two more people, who don't work very much.
I would of course become even more blindingly productive if I were paid the current rate for my job type (effectively only limited by the department's budget). I have another job, that pays the correct amount (doing the same sort of work) and am starting that today. I can probably go to my boss and mention that, heh. My alternative to working within the system is to go to my boss and be a consultant. The salary is capped for that too, but it's much more than I can get as an employee. He is trying to avoid having a consultant until next fiscal year, though.
Contract work in the real world (i work for nonprofit, fairly modest budget) would be nice, but all the skills I have they seem to be turning people down for, heh. My best bet is to get raises at the two jobs, pick up better skills on the job, and then try getting employment or contract work in the for-profit world.
s.
828. CalGal - 10/11/2000 11:23:31 AM
Pogie,
It sounds like you've done all the work and you've got your case laid out. Your extended absence and your health absences are at issue, because they are already factored in. I doubt he'll even raise them, but should he do so you can point that out. You are paid for the work you do when you're there, and you do the work that should be paid a higher rate.
It also sounds like you can be quite flexible on the way he can pay you more, which should help him out.
My best bet is to get raises at the two jobs, pick up better skills on the job, and then try getting employment or contract work in the for-profit world.
Excellent approach.
829. amax - 10/12/2000 7:27:06 PM
One useful resource that I use when I am on the bench is http:\\www.realrates.com
They have a rate survey that collects info from contractors and displays rates by specialty, city, experience, W2/1099 status, etc.
830. PsychProf - 10/13/2000 10:39:47 AM
AMAX....are you a ballplayer?
831. amax - 10/13/2000 2:50:08 PM
Heh,
No, I am a database developer in Redmond. I had been doing a lot of contract work, but as of the last couple of months I have, for my sins, been tempted into taking a full time job at a tech startup.
I used to post here on the mote, (and even before that at Slate) as Amaxen and Amaxen@work.
832. marshame - 10/13/2000 3:47:24 PM
Back to the day laborers.
No, unionization would not fly here, as Texas is a "right to work" state. A neighboring community has addressed the legal status of the workers by saying that that is between the worker and the person hiring him.
These folks perform a vital function, in that they do many, many jobs that you just couldn't get a white man to do: digging ditches, doing construction in 100+ degree weather, installing landscaping, etc. My new house was built 90% by hispanics (although I don't think they were day laborers.) (When I was inspecting the house when the foundation had been laid and the frame was going up, the instructions for the various window and door types was written in Spanish on the concrete.)
Speaking of wages, I got a chuckle out of one of the pre-debate charges against Bush that Texas refused to approve the minumum wage hike at one point. Ha! I believe the minimum wage is currently $5.50. Good luck finding anyone to do anything for less than $8.00 an hour. Even fast food joints who traditionally pay minimum wage have to pay at least that amount to get anyone to work for them. When unempolyment is as low as it it (<3%)the market conditions make the minimum wage meaningless.
833. CalGal - 10/13/2000 4:15:36 PM
Marsha,
California is a "right to work" state, but that doesn't preclude unions, does it?
834. ChristinO - 10/13/2000 4:17:08 PM
CG,
Would you like me to take the R.I.P. off this thread?
835. marshame - 10/13/2000 4:18:14 PM
I don't know the explanation, Cal. There has been some effort of some unions to move in here, in Texas, but they haven't gotten anywhere. Maybe there are select components of the labor force where its effective, such as among long shoremen, but otherwise, I'm aware of no unions whatsoever. Also, as a government employee, I serve strictly "at will" whereas, in California I was covered by both civil service and a union.
836. CalGal - 10/13/2000 4:21:20 PM
Christin,
Only if I don't get pressure to keep it super-active. I kind of like having it around, but I'll defer to your judgment.
Marsha,
So day laborers could unionize, I suppose. But as I said, why would union folk tout this as an option if so many of them aren't legal citizens?
837. rubberducky - 10/13/2000 4:23:39 PM
(speaking of work, CG)
838. marshame - 10/13/2000 4:26:07 PM
And what could a union do for a day laborer? Get him to charge more for his labor? Then the contractor would just hire the next guy in line. I mean, what benefit would the laborer get for his membership dues? And I cannot imagine that any of the workers, with doubtful immmigration status would be "signing up" for anything.
The best we do (that is, the neighboring community who has a day laborer site staffed by one state employment person and one City person) is that the contractor and the laborer agree to the price in front of the State employee, he writes it down. So if the contractor stiffs the laborer, they can exclude him next time (in which case, he just drives to the corner, where the men who haven't signed up at the center are waiting for work.)
839. CalGal - 10/13/2000 4:38:39 PM
Marsha,
Agreed on the illegal issue--that's what I first brought up.
The issue with day laborers, as I understand it, is that they often don't get paid--the contractor just brushes them off, or pays them a lower amount, or doesn't pay more for extra hours. A union could help with that. Of course, so could a decent agency.
Ducky,
Still hunting down the files. Told them I talked to you; am waiting to see.
840. labwabbit - 10/13/2000 4:42:22 PM
Given that 50% of all the people in the world are below average, why is it that 99% think they're in the top half?
841. ChristinO - 10/13/2000 4:42:53 PM
Done dealio, I've got no problem leaving it up I think it fills a niche.
842. labwabbit - 10/13/2000 4:43:12 PM
...at least that what it implies on MY resume.
843. rubberducky - 10/13/2000 4:44:31 PM
CG:
k
844. marshame - 10/13/2000 4:44:48 PM
CG
I agree with the labor issues, and of course an illegal is between a rock and a hard place on that. The local issues of traffic and nuisance (bothering people, littering, etc.) are the ones I'm tasked with solving. Experience has shown that you can get them to disperse, but they will just find another place to congregate. So set up some sort of center or approved location, and you generate business.
There is no easy solution. Someone suggested that the only solution will be if the economy goes south, but I'm not sure that even that would cause the day laborers to go away.
845. CalGal - 10/13/2000 4:46:09 PM
Marsha,
Lord, I somehow missed the second paragraph of your post. I think that better protection is needed, and that's what a union or agency could provide.
As for the illegal workers, if we really wanted to get rid of them, we could do so simply by making it 30 days jail and a $50,000 fine for hiring one.
846. CalGal - 10/13/2000 4:48:12 PM
Marsha,
#44--is there anything more that can be done, once you centralize?
847. marshame - 10/13/2000 5:01:17 PM
The model we're looking at is basically this:
1. find a location along a major transportation corridor/bus line
2. locate an office type set-up (like a construction trailer)
3. staff with state employment person and City neighborhood services person.
4. have workers sign up (first come first served) for work between some early morning hours likr 5:30 am and 10:00 am. Identify those with special skills, such as carpentry.
5. contractor's must pull into circular drive to hire workers (who stand behind a rail.) State employee finds out how many workers needed and calls out names in order. They agree to the job and the amount to be paid, then pile in and off they go.
That's how the center would work. Now for the nuisance control. Pay a police officer overtime to enforce the "no stopping, no standing, no soliciting" ordinance which would have to be passed along the roadway. Get neighboring property owners to agree to no trespassing, no loitering, no soliticiting on their properties.
So cost would be the site, the building, the employee, and the police OT. Then figure out how to get it to survive the political environment (i.e. "why should we pay for a problem that is the charge of the Fed/State?"; "The INS should just run them out"; "It's the State/Fed's problem, not ours!"; "don't locate that center near my property!", etc.)
848. marshame - 10/13/2000 5:03:32 PM
CAg
re your "As for the illegal workers, if we really wanted to get rid of them, we could do so simply by making it 30 days jail and a $50,000 fine for hiring one.
Unfortunately, we could not. This would require federal law, since immigration is a federal and not a local issue. And you know what the chances are for that happening. Even if the State or local government were to pass such a law or ordinance, it could not be enforced without the cooperation of the INS.
849. CalGal - 10/13/2000 5:06:02 PM
Marsha,
Oh, I know you couldn't. I was speaking generally.
One suggestion, though--rather than have the police ticket or disperse the laborers, why not ticket the hirers?
850. marshame - 10/13/2000 5:11:18 PM
The hirers have something the day laborers want: employment. If you start ticketing the hirers, then they will simply move to a new location. And how many police officers are you going to pay to patrol the locations where day laborers congregate? Since this would be a special assignment (i.e. you would be taking a police officer off patrol to monitor these sites), it would be on an overtime basis. We currently pay about $40 an hour for police OT (not to mention tying up the police car). Figuring 5 sites at 4 hours a day, 5 days a week, you're talking about almost a quarter of a million dollars in costs.
No, writing tickets will not solve the problem, unless you also provide an alternative (Like go to the designated center.)
851. CalGal - 10/13/2000 5:14:22 PM
Marsha,
You'd still need the central place. All I'm saying is that if you ticket the hirers with a hefty fine, and give them a reasonable alternative (the central place) you'll provide most hirers with a good reason to use the central place.
Will you require the people who list for work be legal?
852. marshame - 10/13/2000 5:14:44 PM
Hey CG, remember that software vendor I was complaining about, where we pay them $20k a week to send their people down here to fix their own software, which we test for them?
Well, the system went live on Oct 1, and the darned thing works!!!
See, just goes to show that with unlimited time, unlimited money, and an attitude of total capitulation, you can get any software to work!
853. CalGal - 10/13/2000 5:16:07 PM
Hey, you know when people say, "That's why they pay me the big bucks?"
Now you know why.
854. marshame - 10/13/2000 5:16:56 PM
"Will you require the people who list for work be legal?"
Nope, we would leave that to the person actually doing the hiring, i/e/the contractor.
855. marshame - 10/13/2000 5:17:13 PM
Don't ask, don't tell.
856. CalGal - 10/13/2000 5:18:46 PM
Marsha,
Could you get in trouble facilitating a method to allow people to hire illegals?
857. amax - 10/13/2000 5:19:22 PM
Pogie, (moving this from the slow thread)
I work in SQL Server 7.0 and 2000 mainly, altho I've done some Oracle work as well.
858. marshame - 10/13/2000 5:19:23 PM
Ain't that the truth. Only 5 years and $2M over budget. But hey, who's counting.
Actually, those hardware and software people earned their money - every dime of it. Both on the vendor side and on our side. Next time we want to take on a project of such complexity (it's a utilities management system) I suggest we just put a man on Mars.
859. marshame - 10/13/2000 5:23:14 PM
Amax
You're hired! When can you start?
CalGal
What's the issue? People being in the country illegally, or people hiring people who are already in the country illegally? It's not like there are other people trying to get this work. I mean, do you know any European Caucasians or African Americans who want to be ditch diggers?
860. amax - 10/13/2000 6:58:57 PM
On the same subject, CalGal, what is your opinion of H1B's?
To read some of the trade mags and such, H1B's are seen by native programmers rather as Californians viewed Okies during the Depression. I don't see it that way. I believe that the IT industry is pretty unique in that there are almost no barriers to entry -- near perfect competition -- EXCEPT for access to qualified people. I think that the more talented programmers there are who stay in their native countries, the sooner the IT industry in the rest of the world will catch up to the US, and wages in the US will drop much more severely in the medium term.
861. CalGal - 10/13/2000 7:16:19 PM
I don't know anyone who considers H1Bs as Okies, unless it's COBOL programmers who resent the fact that no one is hiring them.
Once upon a time, California farm owners suggested that we allow Mexicans into the country for limited periods of time, when needed for farming. Their term of employment would have a start and end date; while their term was active they were allowed in the country. Once the end date had been reached, they had to go home.
This proposition was roundly denounced. Let people into the country just to work, and then send them home when we don't need them anymore? That's inhuman!
Yet the process was in every way identical to the current H1B program, and no one objects.
I think it's a bit unfair that we allow temporary white collar workers into the country but not temporary laborers. Why not both?
Wages in the computer industry are only depressed at the lower end, where the hacks live. It's not so much that H1Bs steal those jobs (in fact, most of the ones I know are experts), it's that the better jobs aren't available to the US hacks, who have to settle for scut work.
862. CalGal - 10/13/2000 7:17:49 PM
People being in the country illegally, or people hiring people who are already in the country illegally?
Both. It's not really whether it's a big deal to me or not; I'm just thinking that someone might point out that a local government is facilitating illegal alien employment.
863. pogie - 10/13/2000 8:03:22 PM
In texas, it most likely won't come up as an issue, heh. Don't ask works pretty well. Amax, I've heard nothing but nausea and horror stories about ms sql server. Of course, that's what everyone wants one to have experience with, heh. Or Oracle, which has a sort of grail-like sheen to it and whatnot. I'm journeying into the wilds of access 2000. I hope I won't have to kill any beanie babies.
864. marshame - 10/14/2000 10:48:47 AM
Speaking of Oracle, this wonderful new system we have implemented does not yet support whatever new and improved version of Oracle that is supposed to come out soon. We're stuck on 8.6.4 (or whatever the heck it is), but then, all our other applications need the Oracle upgrade. Not to mention that Oracle is going to cease supporting the old version in December. So, this is our latest go-round with the beloved vendor, whose developers we have made rich.
(Can you see my knowledge about this stuff is about 1/4" deep? Scary, isn't int, that people like me make decisions about this stuff.)
865. CalGal - 10/14/2000 12:25:53 PM
Are you sure it's not Version 7.3.4? I believe that the Oracle 8s are all still being supported. The latest/greatest is Oracle 8.i, or something like that. But if you are on an 8.* release, find out why they're recommending an upgrade. They probably have a good reason, but it doesn't hurt to make them state it.
866. amax - 10/16/2000 1:45:48 PM
Re: H1Bs
Yep, most of the developers and contract developers that I know seem to have a similiar attitude: For the most part H1Bs are competent, and the market demand is such that no one is really worried about about having as many as the industry can fly over. But then much of the mass media, and even some of the specialized trade mags (like Contract Professional ---www.cp.com) seem to be pretty anti-H1B. I can't figure it.
867. amax - 10/16/2000 1:51:02 PM
On the broader issue of immigration, as you might recall, CalGal, I am a libertarian of a fairly high wingnut level. Like Ronski, but with a right wing background, instead of left. Anyway, I think that we would be better off with no immigration controls at all, especially towards the south. Hmmm. There is a certain...elitism in that, I suppose. I, and few of the people that I know, would be competing with S/C American immigrants for jobs, but even so, the best thing for everyone involved would be to let them come and go as they pleased.
868. amax - 10/16/2000 2:00:12 PM
Pogie,
Access is a good system, IMO. That is how I got my start in this racket. Its real advantage is that it combines both a database and a user interface -- to a developer, you get to learn both Visual Basic and SQL query language. I stayed in that for about a year and a half, and saw my rate increase about 5-6$ w/every couple of months, until I sensed I was nearing the ceiling for the specialty. Then I started working on learning SQL Server, which has a higher pay ceiling. I think the difference in rates is mainly is due to the fact that there are a lot more Access programmers out there. Access was essentially free to anyone who already had Microsoft Office up 'till recently, but to learn SQL Server you need the program and a NT box -- which is usually a considerable amount of money to get ahold of.
869. CalGal - 10/16/2000 6:27:50 PM
But then much of the mass media, and even some of the specialized trade mags (like Contract Professional ---www.cp.com) seem to be pretty anti-H1B. I can't figure it.
I couldn't find a site www.cp.com, but I did look up Contract Professional and found an article on that site. It seemed relatively even handed--if anything, on the pro side.
The mass media doesn't even know high-end computer professionals exist, for the most part--and if they did, they wouldn't report on their woes anyway. Can you imagine a piece on California high-tech contractors up in arms at the overtime law, furious because they are going to be required to accept O/T?
The people who feel as if they are affected by H1Bs are the lower end workers (35-50/hour). By and large, they are incorrect. Not too many employers are willing to put out the expenses for H1B workers for hack programming. But these are the people who the mass media would gear their stories too, since they are the market.
Anyway, I think that we would be better off with no immigration controls at all, especially towards the south.
We're not better off with no immigration controls so long as we have welfare. That being said, I think it makes sense to let workers here on temporary visas without all the hassles--and without making a distinction between farm laborers and computer techies.
870. marshame - 10/16/2000 6:35:35 PM
CG
Yeah, what you said, 7.3.4.
Latest day laborer solution we've come up with: we'll rent a bus and take them from the site where they congregate to and from our neighboring city, who already has the site set up!!
871. rubberducky - 10/17/2000 2:11:38 PM
so, anyway, CalGal, my beau mentioned the possibility of the two of us moving to CA.
this, of course, took me by surprise. anyhow, are there any CA-specific job sites, or should dice/monster/etc suffice?
PS did you notice the H1B link i posted in Topics?
872. CalGal - 10/17/2000 2:23:35 PM
Moving out to California? Very cool. It is expensive. Unbelievably expensive. And apartments are hard to come by.
I use DICE for everything.
What H1B link where? I think I responded to one a few weeks ago, was that it?
Also, I just sent you an email on That Other Thing.
873. rubberducky - 10/17/2000 2:27:38 PM
CG
yeah, he wants to start over with his career (although i think he's just a little burned out). the expenses are what i keep bringing up - i don't think we should consider it for while for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that we haven't known each other that long.
anyway, DICE it is.
if you look at the main page, Topics of Interest, i added a link to the H1B conversation.
874. CalGal - 10/17/2000 2:30:12 PM
Well, if you're going to break up, would you rather it be in Columbus or California? You'll make plenty of money out here, and you would be a cute City boy, I'm sure.
No, I hadn't noticed it. Thanks. I've noticed that H1B is one of those specialized areas that no one other than Californians are really conversant in.
875. rubberducky - 10/17/2000 2:40:21 PM
Re: Message # 874, CalGal.
Well, if you're going to break up, would you rather it be in Columbus or California?
good question. i'm not sure it would really matter unless we get an apartment that i couldn't afford on my own. (he's the first guy i have dated that makes more than i do, haha.) other than that, i don't know it would matter that much. i have a few friends here in OH, nothing that i couldn't get by without if absolutely necessary.
You'll make plenty of money out here, and you would be a cute City boy, I'm sure.
hahaha
well, that's nice of you to say, but i always discount my looks wrt CA cuties. could be just my perception, however.
876. CalGal - 10/17/2000 3:04:53 PM
Well, guys are guys all over the world. I just meant you have the look down pat.
And I'm happy to see you took my advice on dating up. If you must date. (such a spooky concept)
877. CalGal - 10/17/2000 3:09:18 PM
Oh, Marsha, Amax, and Pogie:
I meant to mention this earlier--the single biggest hiring problem I've noticed these days is the complete lack of DBA contractors. They are all working a gazillion hours a week.
Particularly in Oracle.
So c'mon down to California--hell, they'll hire you remotely, too.
878. amax - 10/17/2000 4:00:48 PM
Calgal:
We're not better off with no immigration controls so long as we have welfare
I seem to remember reading policy analyses indicating that migrant non-citizens contribute vastly more money to the system than they take out. For example, they have FICA & Medicare deducted from their paychecks even tho they will not qualify for those benefits. They also seem to have lower welfare rates than citizens in the same economic bracket. Makes sense. Why would you leave family and friends, undertake the hazards of breaking into the country, and then settle for a measly welfare check? The whole point of them coming over in the first place is to make money. As long as welfare payments are less than what you can make picking apples, I predict that we won't be invaded by hordes of welfare queen wanna-bes. Now, I'm not saying that we should be handing out citizenship right and left -- that is a question that should rightfully be settled in the political sphere, but I know of very few economic reasons why we shouldn't open the border. I will concede that there are stronger cultural and political arguments. But I don't really buy those ones, either.
879. CalGal - 10/17/2000 4:05:48 PM
Amax,
Migrant non-citizens that are illegal, or legal? How are they being paid legally?
In the current environment, I could see that greencard holders would have a lower welfare rate than citizens, obviously. I'm not sure that would hold true if it were easy to get here.
880. amax - 10/17/2000 4:07:58 PM
CalGal,
Demand for DBA's is pretty high up here in the Puget Sound, as well. I will concede that the gals are prettier down in California, but since there is a Mrs. Amax, it's probably better that I stay up here. I have quite a few friends down in Oakland/San Fran, and the stories they tell about the prices....There must be some strong anti-development laws in place to make real estate down there so expensive. One guy I know lives up in Pasadena somewhere, drives to work in his RV on Monday morning, sleeps in it all through the week, and then drives home on Friday evening. Ech. Still tho, I am thinking about leaving where I'm working now. I have a bizarre tale about what has been happening at this company that is too long to post right now, but I'll try to make a couple of installments on it over the next week or so.
881. pogie - 10/17/2000 5:52:06 PM
Cal, that's good to know. My quasi-SO has been trying to get his best friend to come out to the bay area, since he does database junk too and could start at practically six figures, without knowing oracle. But for some reason the best friend likes vegas. Heheh.
882. marshame - 10/17/2000 5:58:10 PM
"the complete lack of DBA contractors."
yes yes yes. We stumbled across one who just got out of school and lacks confidence. I'm sure we will wind up training her for bigger and better things once she gets her confidence up. We were pay $120 an hour for a contract DBA.
883. CalGal - 10/17/2000 6:06:52 PM
I believe the dearth in Oracle dbas is explained thusly:
It is by far the most complicated of the databases. I can install Sybase all by my lonesome. But Oracle is a bitch.
And Oracle is winning the database war hands down. Ten years ago, Oracle, Sybase, Informix, and Ingres were all duking it out, with Oracle in the lead but Sybase a strong second and the two Is with a decent market share.
I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but Oracle has pretty much killed everyone else except SQL-Server (and eventually MySQL). So a lot of people are converting, and new database purchases are now disproportionately Oracle (compared to what they were in the past). And Oracle doesn't respond well to dilettantes, so you need an Oracle DBA more often than you'd need a SQL server DBA.
884. amax - 10/17/2000 6:58:38 PM
Re immigration:
found this link while I was looking for figures on illegal vs. legal immigrants. Not extremely relevant to the discussion, but rather interesting (despite the strident tone) nonetheless.
885. rubberducky - 10/23/2000 11:03:41 AM
interesting article; some clips:
During his 15 years in the film industry, there was only one thing hated more than actors’ overblown egos: meetings. “The film business is full of meetings— they’re total nonsense, a waste of time,” Rawson says. So when he changed careers— he’s now a Web designer—Rawson created a scheme to eliminate them.
HE CHARGES CLIENTS $125 PER HOUR for design projects, but doubles the price if they require him to attend a meeting. When clients hear about the meeting tax, “suddenly they don’t like meetings anymore,” Rawson says, and most agree to communicate by e-mail. “Everyone I talk to hates meetings, but they don’t know what to do about them,” he says. “I’ve done something to stop them.”
continued
886. rubberducky - 10/23/2000 11:04:18 AM
the rest of Message # 885:
At 0830 hours, William Pagonis, chief of operations at Sears, Roebuck & Co., is nudged by a staffer. “Thirty seconds until the meeting starts,” he says. Pagonis, 59, a retired general who ran the U.S. Army’s logistics during the gulf war, now runs this division of Sears on precise military time—and when he holds meetings, he takes no prisoners. Among his rules: employees must stand during briefings. It’s an effective tool. In an experiment involving 550 undergrads, University of Missouri researcher Allen Bluedorn found that sit-down meetings took 34 percent longer than chair-free sessions. Boasts Pagonis: “We cover more material in a 15-minute stand-up meeting than you’d see covered in a two-hour sit-down meeting.” He strides into a conference room, firing questions at 23 staffers. Fifteen of them quickly yell “Pass,” the protocol for indicating they have nothing to add. The rest give updates on computer problems, employee training and monthly sales. When a con-versation meanders, Pagonis snaps: “Take that offline and get back to me.” A moment later, the session adjourns. “Anythingelseokaythanks,” Pagonis says. Elapsed time: six minutes.
both of these ideas i simply adore!
887. CalGal - 10/23/2000 5:25:01 PM
That is such a "J" thing.
I like meetings if they are analysis or design review meetings. Requirements meetings are fun, too.
Status meetings are stupid. Things are either done or not done. If they're done, then no meeting. If they're not done it's either a problem that can be fixed or the situation that caused it is over. If the latter, then no meeting. If the former, it requires analysis, and then it's not a status meeting.
888. amax - 10/23/2000 8:13:03 PM
The Data Modeler’s Tale
Prior to joining this company (I'll call it WebCo), I had been contracting - billing hourly - for a number of years. I love contracting. The chief thing I remember from my last full time jobs were of putting in a lot of unpaid overtime, and maintaining constant vigilance about the political developments within whomever I was working for at the time. Contracting changed all that. Sure, sometimes I put in 70 hour weeks – but every one of those hours was paid for. Sometimes I only had 20 hour weeks – but that was 20 more hours of my life on my own terms, not someone else’s. Either way, I had no guilt. If I wanted to leave early, hey, I was saving the client money. Leave late, and I was showing my dedication to getting the job done to the client’s satisfaction. I never showed up at work late, because legally I worked for myself. If any client were to tell me when I should have been there I would have been an employee, and not an independent contractor, according to the IRS. (The IRS, as you can imagine, has rather harsh penalties for companies that do not report their employees) Company politics were a little like the weather -unpredictable, occasionally inconvenient, but basically irrelevant. Also like the weather, if there were ever any hint of it growing seriously annoying, all I need do would have been to pack up my kit and move on. Worklife, in short, was grand.
889. amax - 10/23/2000 8:25:48 PM
The Data Modeler's Tale II: Paradise Lost
I joined WebCo against my better judgment. I had been contracting hourly at roughly twice what the company was offering, but this company seemed different. They were an Internet startup, which is not unusual in this area, and they had grown from a handful of people in 1999 to close to eighty in the past year, which is again not unusual. The fact that they were pre-IPO, but planning to take that track soon was not unusual. What was unusual about them is that they were (and are) profitable -not in theory, not in a couple of years, but now. I decided, after some agony, that this was a company worth rolling the dice on. In exchange for some equity and a lot less money, I voluntarily recast the shackles binding me to my employer, and signed myself into the regular-joe-full-time-employee-w/company-benefits-workforce -- all for the privelidge of what is essentially a lottery ticket (albiet with better odds than the state - sponsored kind). But things weren't all bad. In exchange for less money, I got a nifty medical insurance plan that I haven't used yet, better hardware than I was used to working with,* and an intangible feeling of 'ownership' of the work that I do.
* contractors, or at least I, usually get the oldest, crappiest equipment to work with on a site. The marketing guy next to me on one project had a 450 Mhz machine w/9 Gigs HD space and used for email. I had an 80 Mhz machine w/less than a gig. My theory about why this is so is that allocation of prestige goods like corner offices, parking spaces, etc. is one of the few things that managers can use to reward employees and maintain their political position. Unfortunately, computers are one of the ultimate prestige goods in the modern workplace. I should add that as a contractor, I couldn't care less. I was being paid by the hour.
890. amax - 10/23/2000 8:26:43 PM
Next installment tomorrow:
891. CalGal - 10/23/2000 8:31:49 PM
Amax,
Great tale so far. I can relate.
Except that if you use their equipment, the IRS often decides that you aren't an independent contractor.
Fucking government. The worst enemy of the independent or temp worker. Snarl.
892. rubberducky - 10/24/2000 9:05:01 AM
Requirements meetings are fun, too.
see, you do that shit on purpose. like i can even grasp this notion.
893. CalGal - 10/24/2000 10:14:16 AM
You don't like requirements meetings?
894. theDiva - 10/24/2000 10:26:14 AM
Ducky
I am printing out the article you linked in 885 and passing it out to our management team. God bless you, my child.
895. rubberducky - 10/24/2000 10:36:01 AM
CG:
surely you jest. all that bickering between people who do not understand the technology enough to tell the difference between (a) what they want something to do and (b) what that something should be doing and the people who do understand these things but are much too lazy to commit to more than one deliverable per week?
eh, no thanks.
i can see why you'd like it, all those nifty definitions. me, just give me the what and how as best you (general project leader "you") can and get outta the way, i'll come back with a prototype at the designated date.
diva:
you are most welcome. somehow, i knew you'd like it.
896. CalGal - 10/24/2000 10:42:56 AM
Ducky,
That's not a requirement session. Users don't fuss their pretty little heads with technology. And if they try to do that, you tell them not to. You say,"Don't fuss your pretty little heads with technology. What do you need to do?"
If they say, "I want a web page that..." then you interrupt them.
"No, that's technology. What do you need to do?"
"I want users to log in and..." you interrupt again.
"You have a defined group of users?"
"No, I want anyone to be able to do this."
"But you want them identified?"
"Yes."
"Do you want them to identify themselves, or do you have your own data to identify them?"
"They have an account number."
"Okay. So you have a group of users who have information that will allow you to identify them, yes?"
"Yes."
"What do you want them to do?"
"I want them to log into a web page..." you interrupt them.
"Cease and desist this nattering of webpages anon! What do you want them to do?"
You've scared them. "Um. I want them to be able to order a statement."
"Excellent! So you want a user to provide his account number and request a statement. Yes?"
"Yes."
"Now. I'm assuming these users aren't on our corporate network. Is that true?"
And so on.
897. rubberducky - 10/24/2000 10:46:54 AM
ack!
i get a headache just imagining it.
i like my solution better: don't go. any and all excuses accepted.
898. theDiva - 10/24/2000 10:48:36 AM
Meetings. Hate em.
See, ours ain't even interesting like Cal's (had a few of those, it was like pulling teeth). Occasionally our staff meetings are fun. We've got this one manager in our section who is a total raving bitch maniac from hell. She goes through her day proceeding from the assumption that everyone (except she) is sneaky, incompetent, lazy, and stupid. This is someone who has charge of a staff of 12 professionals, some with advanced degrees. She is hateful, conniving, sneaky, and backstabbing. Anyway, this charmer loves to derail meetings by getting in the other managers' faces and bidness and telling them how lousy and incompetent their staffs are. The last time, my boss finally said 'Nasty-Raving-Bitch, knock it off. You're bugging me.'
899. CalGal - 10/24/2000 10:51:17 AM
Well, to you it's pulling teeth, because all you want is a decision. To me, it's not pulling teeth.
And status meetings are a waste. Nothing you can do in a status meeting that can't be done in email.
900. theDiva - 10/24/2000 10:52:57 AM
hahahahahaha
true enough. I just think people should know what they want.
901. rubberducky - 10/24/2000 11:10:34 AM
well, just wish for the star of your choice while you are at it deev
902. theDiva - 10/24/2000 11:16:13 AM
ha! For real. Case in point, this same conniving bitch. She has decided our division needs a programmer/analyst to produce reports from our database. I have told her time and again to make a list of what she wants this person to do, adding that in my opinion, hiring a programmer/analyst to build reports in Crystal is overkill for what she needs. She repeatedly gets defensive, loud, and rude, saying 'well, I don't know what I want' and when I tell her what position we need to hire, she says 'that's not it.' Mind you, this woman doesn't know how to change margins in a word document, but she swears a programmer/analyst is what we need. Idiot.
903. labwabbit - 10/26/2000 6:23:21 PM
904. amax - 10/26/2000 8:59:13 PM
The Data Modeler’s Tale Part III: Trouble in Purgatory
I joined WebCo in July 2000. I was very impressed with the company’s strong development and QA* groups. Both groups were composed primarily of former contractors who, like myself, had come on board because they felt WebCo looked to be a solid bet to make us all multi-millionaires. Most of these contractors were former orange–carders (‘permatemps’) at Microsoft, who are really the people that power the aforementioned software behemoth.
As you may recall, a little after my start date the stock market began to become less and less friendly to pre IPO dot-coms. This didn’t really affect the company at first -- even though most of our customers were these same companies. Eventually, though, some of the IOU’s that we held from these .com companies began to come due, and more than a few of the accounts turned out bad. At the same time, we were in negotiations ourselves for more Venture Capital funding. Because our customers were not paying, we were falling short on revenues, and due to the fact that our VC had been pushing the company to expand, we found ourselves in an unprofitable situation. So we needed an additional injection of capital. Fortunately, we still had a very strong stream of income. We were still very attractive to the community, and our CEO spent a lot of time on the road making our pitch.
905. amax - 10/26/2000 9:00:27 PM
The Data Modeler’s Tale Part III point 5: Trouble in Purgatory (cont)
Unfortunately, the VC community believed that our dot-com was a typical one – that is to say, if we did not have the large injection of capital, then we would have to close our doors. Those guys understood rule #1 of negotiating, which is, the person who least needs to win a negotiation, wins. So, we were essentially not going to get our money unless the management decided to concede a substantial portion of the equity of the company. They rightly declined to do so. That meant that expenses had to be cut.
* QA - 'Quality Assurance' aka 'Testers' are the most unappreciated profession in the IT industry, IMO. Unfortunately, to paraphrase Churchill, 'Those companies which despise their testers, sooner or later get despicable testers'. When I came into Webco, one of the big secondary selling points was the amazing competence & professionalism of the QA team. All of them were testers by profession. By contrast, my experience with QA people in other companies were that they fell into two groups: 1. Jumped up secretaries who don't have a clue about the technology or how it is supposed to work, and 2. Beginner, Wanna-be, Second-rate, or Problem-child programmers, who spend more time kvetching about their fate than actually earning their rate.
More tomorrow.
906. rubberducky - 10/27/2000 8:41:16 AM
i, for one, am enjoying this amax. i can certainly relate. if your story turns out differently than mine, i'll post my story as well.
907. CalGal - 10/27/2000 10:57:06 PM
Amax,
When I interview people, I have one standard--I ask them whether they like Chinese food.
If they say, "No." or "Yes." then they'll make a great tester. But if I'm looking for an analyst, I pass.
908. amax - 10/31/2000 3:30:35 PM
Working on the next installment. I haven't quite figured out in my own mind what happened so I am going thru my third rewrite of my chronicle. Please bear with me.
909. labwabbit - 10/31/2000 5:57:49 PM
Amax
The context in which you apply QA is more correctly defined as QC.
QA = Organiztion of Quality
QC = Elements within the org.
Take it from an IT/ME (IT = Industrial Technology)
910. amax - 11/2/2000 2:19:48 AM
Labwabbit,
Yep, I contracted at a medical manufacturer for about 6 months, and the same guys were referred to as QC there too, but apparently official Microsoft termonology for the profession is QA people -- job descriptions typically are "QA Engineer", "QA Test Manager", etc. By default, they are pretty much universally known as such in the software developent community up here in Redmond.
I'll concede the technical point to you tho, since I try to stay away from reading much systems theory on the grounds that it makes it more likely that I'll be dragged into Management -- something I desperately avoid.
911. amax - 11/2/2000 2:22:27 AM
The Data Modeler's Tale: Part IV
The layoffs came in late August, when we let about 20 people go. It was sad, but not intrinsically demoralizing or heartbreaking. The dev people all found other jobs within a week or two, and as a dev, I really don’t give a rat’s ass about sales or marketing people (my apologies in advance to any unfortunate members of the species who are also Moties) In addition, it was widely perceived that the layoffs targeted the right people, with a couple of exceptions – about as good as is possible to achieve, in the real world.
But morale started dropping.
To make things worse, company had, up until this point, been offering a progressively higher strike price to new employees who came on board. When I joined, it was at about $4.50. On the heels of the layoff, management announced a significantly lower strike price – about $1.50. This was, I thought, a rational move. The strike price – that price at which you have an option to buy stock at a later time – should reflect what the company is worth on the market at the time.
This is not, however, how most of the IT employees saw it. They perceived themselves to be ‘under water’, with options valued at more than the actual value of the company. Morale plummeted, and that, combined with the tight limits on spending for new technology, began an exodus. At least, that is the justification that most of the IT people gave over beers at the local pub. We have lost, or are in the process of losing, something like 80 % our QA team, about 60% of our Developers, and maybe 30-50 % of our tech operations people – all in the space of about 3 weeks.
912. amax - 11/2/2000 1:16:29 PM
Re H1bs:
This Admittedly unscientific poll on Techies.com shows a much higher trade unionist sentiment amoung IT people than I had thought. While it is one of those little web site quiz thingies, The site itself is pretty much devoted to techs & tech recruiters. Hope the link works. In case it doesn't:
The recent increase of allowable foreign work visas (H1-Bs):
Is great -- 195,000 a year is too low. Give us more! 392 45%
Is a bad thing for home-grown American techies. 432 50%
Is a political matter that doesn't concern me. 14 2%
I have no opinion. 31 4%
913. amax - 11/2/2000 1:25:18 PM
Heh, that's a good one Calgal (re 109)
Here's one of my favorites:
What's the difference between a used car salesman and a software salesman?
A used car salesman knows when he's lying
914. amax - 11/2/2000 1:25:41 PM
er, I meant post 907.
915. CalGal - 11/2/2000 1:32:47 PM
Amax,
About the strike price--you are surprised that hurt morale? They didn't lower everyone's strike price simultaneously? My lord, I'd quit on the spot.
916. CalGal - 11/2/2000 1:33:30 PM
Amax,
Remember, again, that there are a lot of temp workers making $50/hour these days, and mad as hell about it.
917. amax - 11/2/2000 2:13:22 PM
Remember, again, that there are a lot of temp workers making $50/hour these days, and mad as hell about it.
The ironic thing about it is that most people I know would think of $50 an hour as being all the money in the world, especially for what it involves doing. I detect a certain elitist mentality in a lot of the developers I work with -- they believe that they are paid so much because they are smart. They don't seem to realise that you earn considerably less money for considerably more skull sweat & years of training doing something equivalent in, say, architecture, or accounting. My belief is that sooner or later the market will correct itself, and a lot of the bozos in this field will require solid references to get work, and not have them.
918. CalGal - 11/2/2000 3:11:43 PM
But these people aren't really worried about their hourly rate. They want to be hired. Temping is just what they do until they get a real job. These are the people who got mad at Microsoft. Never mind that they'd signed on as temps, they thought they'd do a good job and then get hired. All the facts in the world wouldn't convince them otherwise. Then, when they didn't get hired, they got upset.
The temp world is broken up into two groups: those who make more money as a contractor, and those who don't. People making $50/hour with no vacation and no benefits fall squarely into the latter category. And they're mad as hell about it, which makes them ripe for union talk, overtime, and other such nonsense.
919. rubberducky - 11/2/2000 3:22:10 PM
the first of two good MSN articles:
The pitfalls of e-mail
The e-mail seemed so innocent. “Betty, hi,” he remembers cheerfully typing to his colleague. “I haven’t been successful reaching you by phone, so I’ll try e-mail instead.”
AND SO BILL LAMPTON — then an employee of a large hospital — dashed off the rest of his note on some trivial office matter and hit the send button.
Betty never got past the greeting.
“I have no idea what you mean about my not returning phone calls,” Lampton recalls Betty firing back. “To have you accuse me of ignoring your calls is unthinkable and inexcusable. ... As to the purpose of the e-mail that you sent me, I prefer not to respond, as I dislike dealing with anyone who assumes the worst of me.”
i'm sorry but this bitch needs to be slapped
The problem, say those who have studied online communication, is that the rapid-fire e-mail message arrives without all the facial expressions, body language and vocal cues that richly color most human conversation. Humor, sarcasm and double entendres — best delivered with a smile, a raised eyebrow or smirk — often fall flat or are taken literally in e-mail exchanges.
i understand this to a certain degree, but i just can't see getting worked up over some stupid e-mail from a fellow peon.
920. rubberducky - 11/2/2000 3:24:17 PM
I QUIT: Just say it, sister
I've been working since I was 15 — over 20 years, over 20 jobs. No matter how much I was mistreated (and quite often I was), no matter how poorly I was paid, saying, "I quit" always brought relief mixed with guilt and fear.
i can certainly relate here. the fear that an employer will look at you and see a doofus instead of someone with skills was one i had until i recognized that they asked me for an interview, not the other way around. there are plenty of other jobs out there. even if i have to (shudder) take less money for a more fulfilling career opportunity
Last year, I was visiting some friends in the country. They're a bit older than me, a bit further along the learning curve. We were chatting about work and the anxiety I was feeling over leaving my latest gig. How was I ever going to find work I could at least tolerate?, I wondered.
They gave me some simple, life-altering advice: "You have to always be ready to walk away," they said. At all times. If a situation is bad, don't wait until it's unbearable. Don't make excuses for bad management (or boyfriends or husbands or roommates). Just say what you want and if you don't get it (and chances are you won't), put in your notice and say bye-bye. Something better will come along.
excellent advice. advice i've followed (although i had never seen it in black and white) for several years.
921. CalGal - 11/2/2000 3:26:01 PM
See, this is proof that people are fucking morons.
I haven’t been successful reaching you by phone, so I’ll try e-mail instead
cannot by any reasonable means be translated to I have no idea what you mean about my not returning phone calls.
Idiots.
922. rubberducky - 11/2/2000 3:29:28 PM
CG:
See, this is proof that people are fucking morons.
indeed. maybe e-mail needs to be licensed. keep dumbfucks from abusing the privilege of communicating.
(PS did u get my e-mail i sent to your work address?)
923. pogie - 11/2/2000 3:31:12 PM
that betty needs a smackdown. people aren't always right by their phones. she is getting het up over nonsense.
regarding the 50/hr folks (if i just send my darn resume out, i might be one of them soon, heh): one wonders why they don't simply go out and pick up the skills that will kick them into 75/100/150 country. in my lame little way, that's my plan of action. job pool is small and workers with flexible skillsets are always wanted (and learning a few things extremely well is also flexible, more so than racking up the flavor of the month apps to me). it seems so win-win.
924. CalGal - 11/2/2000 3:42:43 PM
Pogie,
one wonders why they don't simply go out and pick up the skills that will kick them into 75/100/150 country
Because it's not really entirely a matter of skills. It's a matter of mentality.
Example: there is some guy over at TT who had been out of work for 18 months. He had three jobs on his resume--two in Vax, one in mainframe (2 year contract), and all over 20 years. In Cobol. His last gig had been a Y2K gig, and he'd been hoping they would hire him. When they didn't, he was out of work for 18 months, and was spending it looking for Cobol gigs.
Hello? Like spend that time getting some new skills, dumbfuck?
925. CalGal - 11/2/2000 3:44:59 PM
Pogie,
On the flip side, I am sure you'll do fine, because your approach makes a lot of sense.
People should look at their resume as an outsider does. If you didn't know you, would you want to hire you based on this description? Have you spent all your life at one job, or one area of expertise? Do you have good references? Do you show signs of having responded to the market demands--which not only means you can learn new things, but that you have a brain for other than just doing what you're told?
926. pogie - 11/2/2000 4:29:51 PM
(x-posted at TT, because I am feeling pogie today ;D)
If anyone standing around has a few spare minutes, I'd love criticism/feedback on my first run-through at a resume. It's here. All text goodness. Yum! Anyway, I'll be fixing it anyhow before sending it on to recruiters and such in the morning, but advice afore then would be right swell.
927. CalGal - 11/2/2000 4:32:55 PM
I'm checking it out, but you should put in page breaks.
928. PelleNilsson - 11/2/2000 4:37:00 PM
Page breaks? What about line breaks?
929. CalGal - 11/2/2000 4:38:23 PM
That is what I meant; I just have been working in Word too much.
930. pogie - 11/2/2000 4:41:16 PM
D'oh. Must change link. Now it is here, in all its badly formatted glory. But mainly I am worried about content, since formatting can always be repaired.
931. pogie - 11/2/2000 4:43:04 PM
I put in a bunch of line breaks basically and not much else.
932. CalGal - 11/2/2000 4:50:23 PM
Pogie, from top to bottom:
933. CalGal - 11/2/2000 4:53:17 PM
Last comments:
Sorted physical files and created specialized logs utilizing Excel for more efficient maintenance of these files. Also worked with specialized database management software to update and edit records.
Rewrite this to be more extensive. Two sentences, at least. As it is, you spend more line space on your waiting job than on this. What dbms was it? Say so, explain how you learned it on the job, and so on.
Worked as part of student waitstaff at faculty dining club. Generally self-supervised. Often assisted student managers and co-workers in performing their assigned tasks and duties for daily lunches and formal events. Also trained new hires. Worked very closely with student managers and fulltime staff in performing duties and training others in waiting duties. Periodically filled in for student managers during formal events, performing their duties during periods of understaffing.
Cut this way down, focusing only on the stuff that a prospective employer will be interested in--training and management.
934. pogie - 11/2/2000 4:56:31 PM
Wow, ok. I'll make those changes. They sound more focused, which is mainly what I was trying to figure out how to express. Gratzie.
935. amax - 11/2/2000 5:53:33 PM
Pogie,
Another thing that seems to help, especially if you expect your resume is going to be gatekeeped by a non-tech broker, recruiter, or hr person: Create a little section at the top of your resume called 'Technologies' - Then, in two words or less, list what languagues/skills you have. Mine has about 9 or 10, and they are literally things like HTML, ASP, SQL Server 7.0, SQL Server 2000, T-SQL, Windows 95/NT/2000, etc. It's not much use to the tech person interviewing you, but it is a big help to a non-tech broker or HR person who doesn't really have a clue about computers, but just knows that he needs someone with 'SQL stored procedure writing' -- which is gibberish to her, but she is doesn't want to feel stupid asking you to explain it to her. Having your little list of technologies all in one place helps the poor little dears -- and gets you more interviews. Remember that most of the recruiters will think that there is a big difference between, say, visual basic 5 and visual basic 6, or between T-SQL and SQL.
936. amax - 11/2/2000 6:29:50 PM
Whups,
Missed your 'Skills' section at the bottom, but even so, I'd add more technologies, and place it at the top. All the resume is there for is to get you in the door, and for the interviewer to use to ask you questions when he can't think of any. My experience has been that hiring decisions are made on the basis of interviews, not resumes.
937. amax - 11/2/2000 8:48:02 PM
Since the stock market now significantly discounts dot-com ventures, the best guess that anyone could make about our ‘real’ (i.e. market) value was that it was lower now than in the past. Given the fact that the company does kinda/sorta make money at this point in the game, one could expect that we could still reap the rewards of taking the company public in the future. Eventually, of course, what is likely to happen is the the shakeout of the more inefficient companies and startups, the elimination of some of our competitors, and an increase of company profits. Assuming we survive, we’ll be in great position to get ours when greed ascends fear in the market. Our options --even at the $4 rate will be worth some, and perhaps a great deal of money.* At any rate management, a couple of weeks later, dropped the strike price to $.20 for employees – yet it had almost no impact on morale -- most of the people who left did so a week after the stock was revalued.
The options are not a hard physical asset, and only changed, apparently, because the market dropped. In reality, I believe that the exodus from the company wasn’t primarily the knocks we received from the market in the last couple of months. I think it is something else- and I’ll post more later.
*I'm no financial analyst, but I do know that a conservative p/e ratio is around 8. When you multiply our earnings (earnings is revenue. right boss?) times eight and divide by shares outstanding, it comes out to something like $10 a share. I'd appreciate being corrected if there is something missing in this line of logic...
938. amax - 11/2/2000 8:50:52 PM
Message # 937= Data Modeler's Tale, Pt V.
939. arkymalarky - 11/4/2000 11:27:57 PM
Well, I don't think I've posted since I first changed jobs. It hasn't been nearly as easy a schedule as I thought (I feel more than a little misled), and I'm feeling pretty frustrated about it right now. With the teacher shortage I'm not concerned about job security or anything, and it's fairly easy to change (except for the paperwork) since the retirement, insurance, etc, is the same, but I'm on contract for the year. I'm over 1/4 the way through and if it's going to improve it needs to do it pretty soon. Everyone I work with is very nice, though, including the students and administration.
A big part of the problem is the overload due to the teacher shortage plus the State Ed dept's new series of changes that have really put a lot of pressure on the schools, especially teachers and administrators. Another reason they're both leaving in droves. Those two things make teaching in a very small school even more appealing than it already was.
I've learned something I knew, but had forgotten, and that's that comfort, happiness, a consistent environment, and a lot of independence are more important to me than money or convenience. My job needs to be almost like a second home to me, or I get very stressed and uncomfortable and begin to feel that it's encroaching on my life rather than enriching it, and then I begin to get resentful.
940. CalGal - 11/5/2000 11:39:55 AM
Arky,
Were you given more classes than you were promised, or is it the administrivia and other crap?
941. arkymalarky - 11/5/2000 11:57:36 AM
No, just more kids in the room (25 and 30 rather than the quoted 16 and 22), and the yearbook situation was not nearly as good as I thought (not the admin's fault, but my predecessor's), so it's soaking up a lot of what I thought would be extra time. Also, the tech problems, which I was aware of and have already mentioned, are adding to my headaches since I have ten "new" computers, two of whose towers have already crashed and he's already replaced four monitors. These were bought at the beginning of the summer. To do what I'm doing I have to have dependable computers, and getting them in order is like pulling teeth. And they don't like teachers doing things themselves, even loading in software, so I'm sort of stuck.
Plus, and this is only superficial, but I don't like my room. It's too small, the lady before me ordered new tables and chairs (she'd gotten some money to work with outside the system to order the computers and furniture), and that does not work with large classes in a relatively small room with computer-lined walls.
942. arkymalarky - 11/5/2000 11:58:31 AM
The administratrivia is pretty much ignorable, except, as I said, some new state stuff is kicking in and they're under a lot of pressure implementing that and at the same time improving test scores with an overcrowding situation. I feel for the admin, because I know they're working hard--everyone is--but they need to streamline and coordinate their system so that people can work efficiently, not just hard. Somehow they need to figure out that you can work efficiently and smartly and get a lot more done with less stress and less time spent working than you can by simply working hard. Also, they need to trust the teachers to implement whatever gets the job done on scores, etc, rather than trying to establish and develop programs, department coordination, etc. Some of that is necessary, but too much of it robs valuable preparation and grading time. And if you're going to teach writing and reading comprehension, the kids have to write a lot, read a lot, and demonstrate in-depth understanding, which means even more writing. That's a lot of grading and reading for an English teacher when classes are so large and there's a yearbook to put out and other duties, mostly involving fund-raising for the yearbook--you don't even want to get me started on that.
PS--on second thought, the room thing is not superficial, it's a crucial part of the environment and tone of the class and mine and the students' comfort level.
943. arkymalarky - 11/5/2000 11:59:47 AM
'Scuse the big dump. That seems to be how I respond to job questions any more, unfortunately.
944. arkymalarky - 11/5/2000 12:04:55 PM
PPS--I'm trying not to focus on it, but I really miss my old job a lot. That's probably a bigger part of my problem than anything.
945. CalGal - 11/5/2000 12:42:19 PM
You know, Arky, I love your descriptions because I never really think much about the day to day extra stuff of teaching until you bring it up. Don't feel bad for dumping.
If your unhappiness continues, what will you do?
946. arkymalarky - 11/5/2000 1:21:12 PM
Thanks, Cal. I have a lot of options come spring, so I'll see what happens then, I guess. But for now, I've got to work on my own perspective and deal with things better. FWIW, things will be a lot better come Christmas, because some short-term stresses will be ended then and the rest of the school year looks pretty routine. As far as the state-mandated stuff, it's going to create more pressure wherever I teach, to a degree. At my old school it wasn't a problem, because I already had all that lined out with my teaching load. Either way, I only have 8 more years before I can draw full retirement, so I'm definitely going to continue teaching for that long, anyway.
I really, truly, don't handle change well, but when I first began teaching I went through a lot of changes in a relatively short time (I counted the other day and I've worked at seven schools under eleven principals in 20 years), so I thought this would be a lot easier and a bit exciting and challenging since I'd been in one place so long, in addition to providing some convenient benefits over my other job. And I do love working and commuting with Bob. It would be nice if we could stay in the same system, but that would mean one school having openings in both our fields at the same time--more likely than a few years ago, but still not too likely.
I think that maybe I'd actually built an intolerance for changing environments and it's time for me to settle into a comfortable situation and enjoy my day-to-day work. I love teaching, and I don't mind having a full schedule, as long as I don't feel overwhelmed and/or out of control of my situation. If I can't do that here, then I'll go someplace else. I don't want to count chickens, though, so I'm trying to withhold decisions until at least after Christmas, and probably spring break.
947. PelleNilsson - 11/5/2000 1:33:52 PM
 |
948. CalGal - 11/5/2000 2:27:26 PM
I could never figure out how they worked.
949. PelleNilsson - 11/5/2000 3:23:07 PM
Of course you couldn't. Majored in English did you not?
950. PelleNilsson - 11/5/2000 3:25:00 PM
And probably never heard of a logarithm, much less seen one.
951. CalGal - 11/5/2000 3:31:24 PM
Actually, I took math all the way up to Calculus, and I vaguely remember logarithms.
952. Dusty - 11/5/2000 4:25:44 PM
PelleNilsson
Oh yes.
I used one all through college. As a senior, I remember seeing someone with a calculator, HP, I believe, but they cost hundreds of dollars at the time, so they were beyond the pocketbook of ordinary students.
I have a K&E given to me by my father that he used in 1945. I bleieve it was mahogany.
(I'm also remembering that bamboo was used. Perhpas the one I used was bamboo?)
953. Dusty - 11/5/2000 4:30:18 PM
PelleNilsson
Have you seen this:
Eric's Slide Rule Page?
954. rubberducky - 11/7/2000 3:13:45 PM
and here we see diva at evaluation time: 
955. Uzmakk - 11/18/2000 8:15:06 PM
Am I the only employer who actually beats his employees in this country?
956. vw - 11/19/2000 10:34:15 AM
Well, they frown on beating employees in NYS. Not only that, but most of my employees are young men who are a lot bigger than me ... I find economic sanctions to be much more effective ... or I disconnect them from the cable modem router and they can't get a good connection to Napster anymore.
957. labwabbit - 11/19/2000 12:37:23 PM
vw
Vicious....
Don't you think the Napster deprivation is a bit much?
I realize I have much to learn in the university of cruelty.
958. vw - 11/19/2000 10:27:13 PM
Well labwabbit, extreme times call for extreme actions.
Napster Deprivation is usually only warranted in the following situations:
959. marshame - 11/19/2000 11:02:22 PM
wow vw, you're tough. C'mon, have a heart, will ya?
My current punishment of choice is making the minions change cubicles. Hehehe.
There's one old broad who's been in the same office for about 50 years. She needs to retire since she hasn't done a day's work in years(she's been with the company for 27+ years and is eligible for a generous pension). So, after asking her when she plans to retire, and she gives me the old "I'd like to work for a few more years, I plan tell her she's moving into a cubicle about one-fifth the size of her current office, to make room for her supervisor, who supervises 10 people. {I just took over supervision of this particular department, and I must do the henchman routine immediately because I will go soft if I wait too long.]
960. RickNelson - 11/20/2000 9:51:12 AM
Will anyone volunteer to read and critique my cover letter?
I'm changing careers. I've been working in a sales environment and I'm in school for IT. W2K implementation and infrastructure is the curriculum.
I'm trying for a support role or at least a help dest role.
Any takers please email me at RyckNelson@att.net and I will email you the letter for examination. I'm hoping to send it out today and I have two jobs in mind right now.
961. CalGal - 11/20/2000 12:31:41 PM
Rick,
Send it to the_calgal@yahoo.com and tell me when you do.
VW, Marshame,
I'm a big believer in creative firings. But I hate project management, so I rarely get the opportunity to indulge.
962. rubberducky - 11/20/2000 12:32:29 PM
Rick:
the only advice i have is to tailor each letter to the person (no To Whom It May Concern crap) and company in question. point out why this company would want to hire you. what is it you, specifically, offer them?
963. CalGal - 11/20/2000 12:37:51 PM
Ducky,
I didn't answer that email? I thought I had. I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to ignore you.
I would spend this month making sure your resume spells "Young Yettie". December is traditionally considered a bad month to look for gigs, but I would start monitoring Monster and Dice (if it is used in your area) for interesting jobs. If you see something that has just been posted and looks hot, go for it. But if all the jobs seem to be older than a few weeks, stay away.
Generally, January brings new listings (at least in this area). You want to hit the ground running so you have six weeks to assess things.
Keep in mind that I live out here, where things move faster. I may be wrong both about timing and the influx of new listings in January in your area. That's why it is imperative that you get your resume ready to go and start monitoring asap, so you can get a feel for when and how listings show up.
964. rubberducky - 11/20/2000 12:42:42 PM
CG:
no, you didn't answer, but it's no biggie. posting here is just as well, imo.
you've seen my resume, do you think it needs more work (you can reply here or in e-mail)?
PS i have no idea what I would spend this month making sure your resume spells "Young Yettie". means ...
965. CalGal - 11/20/2000 1:15:03 PM
I'll look at your resume again and make comments.
Yettie
966. rubberducky - 11/20/2000 1:25:30 PM
CG
rape-and-pillage libertarianism
&
Yuppies believed greed was good; yetties believe that greed is a given and they don’t give a damn about the numbers. While it is about the money, it’s not about the money. The greed is just accepted.
shit, i had when i am classified more or less correctly by people i've never met (i don't like Starbucks for example, but that's a small point to be sure)
more to the point, i think i do say 'Young Yettie' but i'll leave it up to you to tell me otherwise.
967. RickNelson - 11/20/2000 3:51:17 PM
Calgal,
I just sent you an email. Thanks.
968. CalGal - 11/20/2000 4:22:38 PM
Still haven't received it. Are you sure you used the right address? Post yours, and I'll email to you.
969. RickNelson - 11/20/2000 6:12:15 PM
I missed the the_ and sent it just now.
970. CalGal - 11/20/2000 6:58:17 PM
Rick--backatcha.
Ducky, I will try and review your resume tonight. Rick's seemed more time critical.
971. sakonige - 11/20/2000 8:41:52 PM
Well, I'm officially retired from the software industry today, after being inserted under a junior vp for the last straw a couple of months ago. Thanksgiving Dinner is my first priority. I'm not working. Too bad about you.
972. sakonige - 11/21/2000 11:46:11 AM
I thought I'd just drop in and tell you how great it is not to be at work today. In January I'll be taking classes full-time and working 20 hours per week as a tutor, but until then I can do whatever I please. Maybe I'll go for a swim this afternoon.
973. CalGal - 11/21/2000 11:52:37 AM
Well, I've never had to work hard enough to envy you. I'm right now sitting at home, watching elections returns, and will go to the gym in 15 minutes or so. Mosey into work around 10:30.
I do find work uninteresting, for the most part, and would like to do something different--involving more analysis and design, and preferably in something other than software. But that's unlikely to happen. Still, I would not be interested in a life where I didn't work. That's probably due to my own limitations.
How about others? If you could chuck it in, would you? I'm not talking about a long time off with the kids, but total financial freedom to never work again.
974. sakonige - 11/21/2000 12:29:55 PM
I have been working too hard, and it has started to have an impact on my health. The miserable, death-march ethic that exists in the Seattle software industry seemed glamorous years ago, but it has gotten tiresome, and I'm not interested in pursuing any area of the technology further. This is about a decade sooner than I had planned to retire, but I'm willing to forego the extra money for the time.
975. sakonige - 11/21/2000 12:37:21 PM
It doesn't take much money to hang out on an Indian reservation, anyway.
976. theDiva - 11/21/2000 12:42:21 PM
"How about others? If you could chuck it in, would you? I'm not talking about a long time off with the kids, but total financial freedom to never work again."
In a heartbeat, and without hesitation. Oh, I would keep busy, I'd have projects galore, but work for a paycheck? No. Never again.
First I'd take Greg and the kids and travel, travel, travel. Europe, Asia, Africa, wherever. I love where I live so I'd probably build my dream house along the river near here. I'd go back to school and take whatever classes struck my fancy. I'd learn to tap dance and to throw pottery and to speak Italian and to play piano. I'd go to mass every morning and do volunteer work like crazy all over the community. And when I got tired of doing all that, I'd open a jazz club.
977. CalGal - 11/21/2000 1:04:53 PM
Wow.
I'm exhausted just reading that.
I guess I'm not much of a doer.
978. theDiva - 11/21/2000 1:05:33 PM
Cal
well, I like to stay busy. Keeps me off the streets.
979. ChristinO - 11/21/2000 1:22:28 PM
I gotta go with the Deev on this one.
There are so many things I want to play at and learn and experience. So many things to volunteer to do. Most of the jobs that I've held in my life have been nothing much more than a waste of time that brings home the rent money. As far as making a real contribution in the world or to my own life other than as a commodity they don't have much merit. Nothing that was vital or personally fulfilling. Work for it's own sake has value as a learning concept, but it isn't a way of life that I find very appealing. I'm not Puritanical enough for that.
980. theDiva - 11/21/2000 1:24:55 PM
Probably the best thing about working for local government, AFAIC, is feeling as though I am making a contribution to the community. This was especially true when I worked in human services. I just didn't ever get that satisfaction in the private sector.
981. ChristinO - 11/21/2000 1:33:51 PM
I did when I worked for a veterinarian. Also when working in a daycare and doing community theatre, but other than that it's been pretty much bring home the bacon type stuff. I've had jobs that I liked more or less than others, but so far I haven't really found my niche. Certainly nothing that I find more appealing than being independently wealthy!
982. bubbaette - 11/21/2000 1:33:55 PM
If I were independently wealthy and didn't have to work, I wouldn't. Instead, I'd probably go to school for a lot of subjects that interest me -- law, literature, writing -- but with no intention of actually working in the field. I'd become involved in politics -- volunteering in campaigns and possibly running for the board of stupidvisors. I'd spend more time visiting family, gardening, exercising, and traveling.
983. RickNelson - 11/21/2000 1:52:35 PM
"How about others? If you could chuck it in, would you? I'm not talking about a long time off with the kids, but total financial freedom to never work again."
U-betcha I'd quit as a working employee. I might start a foundation and travel extensively. I would give my family humble but very comfortable living arrangements, and add as much cultural, social and tourist activity as time allows. Big screen theatre quality surround sound, full size slate pool table, gym with hoops, pool and spa, all of these will be incorporated into the humble little abode.
984. RickNelson - 11/21/2000 2:00:35 PM
But, my time is spent sending resumes and cover letters to prospective employers. I'm using Monster's set up and the local Star and Tribune set up to get leads. Both set up my resume and other information to pass on to the prospective company. I'm hoping this isn't over utilized and mine will be caught in a mess of others.
Anyone know about these internet services and if they work well? Replacing an in-person method to give a resume, mailing a resume, or calling in and sending in a fax upon request?
985. rubberducky - 11/21/2000 2:16:24 PM
i don't know that i'd quit. i'd probably get to be even more insufferable that i wouldn't be able to hold a job.
i'd like to think that i'd get involved in the community and gay rights as my 'job' but i don't think i'd know until i was in the situation. but, my oh my, how i'd love to find out.
986. CalGal - 11/21/2000 4:24:55 PM
Rick,
I think very highly of Dice, and use it for almost all of my contracts. Monster is supposed to be excellent. I certainly recommend both of them.
Did you get my response?
987. CalGal - 11/21/2000 4:29:17 PM
It's interesting to read what others of you would do. I tend to live a very isolated life (by choice) and work is the thing that draws me out and makes me play nice with others. I'm not sure if I could configure a life in which I didn't have to work for money that would be...sufficiently peopled. I'd have to learn a whole different way of operating. Which would be a lot of work. And heck, if I'm going to have to work I may as well get paid for it.
I would probably be interested in finding some other career and starting wherever I could get in without concern for money, though.
988. vonKreedon - 11/21/2000 4:33:48 PM
I did retire. Really enjoy it, though it has cut into the time that I used to spend on the Mote.
I got quite a bit of fulfillment from working at MSFT, but eventually it wore out and I had to do something else. Retiring gives me, as Diva pointed out, the ability to do many fulfilling things instead of one thing at the sufferance of my employer. This in addition to the extra time that I get to spend with my family.
989. labwabbit - 11/21/2000 6:18:04 PM
I could quit anytime and still live at the level I am now for the rest of my life easily. Been that way for a couple of years.
But I'm always working anyhow-at something. This station I am at now offers me the opportunity to meet new people, from just about everywhere, everyday. I travel frequently, and it costs me nothing. The people I share this town with are truly wonderful, and always very interesting. (98% of the population here is from somewhere else anyway.) I do things on a daily basis, as part of my work as well as leisure, that most can only imagine. Many business and personal dealings are still done on a handshake here. I mean million dollar deals as well. In the corporate world I had been accustomed to (in my other life), you couldn't trust your partners...or anyone. I leave my house unlocked, keys in the car/truck, and every driver always stops for someone crossing the street in town...at a crosswalk or not.
There is hustle and bustle and alot of humor and insight to be had. The really satisfying thing about it all is... that I chose to be here, and to do this. Not because I had to ...or was limited to. That makes it all worth it even if there wasn't everything else.
I could easily be pulling down 6-figures just about anywhere in the U.S., Canada, or Europe. I could be in a high-rise office, in the noisey redundum of faceless society...or guiding in the back woods of Maine. Instructing at a University or High School, or consulting as a business systems developer. I have done many things in my life and it has been completely fulfilling, in most aspects. But here I can put it all together, and still be only 5 minutes away, using any means including walking, from pure solitude, beauty, and majesty. Damn, I attend meetings with state reps and senators twice a month and have yet to see anyone wear a freakin tie....( which I had to wear for the past twenty years).
990. labwabbit - 11/21/2000 6:18:21 PM
I have been very fortunate to have what all too many can only dream about, or even possess a sense of the existence of what I am living. I can lease a float plane without signing any documents at any time and fly to a glacier ( 3 times so far), or just check out the fare in distant towns, or jump in one of my boats, close my eyes, chose a direction, and wherever I land I can camp out without trespassing on someone's.........rights?
From my living room picture windows I watch whales go by frequently, see more eagles on a daily basis than most people see in a lifetime, share the town square with bears, ( and somtimes my garage), get up in the morning, run down to the dock (2 mins), jump in the boat, go fishing and catch a few salmon or halibut, there and back home in an hour, take a shower be to work in 20 minutes, by boat, (and park less than 100' away from my office), come home, mow the lawn or some other required home maintenance, and go fishing (or cruising) for an hour or two after supper, (summer till almost midnight), and be back home all before 7PM. That is a very normal, and quite common, day...no shit involved.
Soo, would I give up my job if I were handed a billion-dollar lottery ticket? Absolutely not. My job is a very integral part of my happiness.
As often as I say it, I mean it just as much each time when I say Life is GOOD!
991. pogie - 11/21/2000 6:23:11 PM
If I had enough to live on without working, I'd pretty much do what I plan to get paid for shortly-- write a lot of language and database software and applications. I want to work on realtime natural language translation, and on some computer language translators. God knows how I'll get hired for that stuff in the first place, but it's the kind of work I want to do whether I get paid for it or not. There is also some sociological and anthro-type stuff I want to do in a similar vein. And work on improving behavioral science. And of course write music and fiction. I've dull hobbies, but applying my interests will have not-dull results. ;D
992. arkymalarky - 11/21/2000 8:22:42 PM
"How about others? If you could chuck it in, would you? I'm not talking about a long time off with the kids, but total financial freedom to never work again."
Some people say teaching is part time, since you sign a contract for a set number of work days per year, but I'd like to teach about half time. If I couldn't do that, I'd rather not work, and I'd spend a lot of time at home. I'd read a lot more, but I find when I do have lots of time off, like in the summers, I don't end up doing much productive.
And one disadvantage about having a job with a lot of time off and friends and family close by is that they are more imposing. If I retired or went to half-time I'd actually put up my blinds and buy a "gone fishin'" sign.
I'm a very lazy person by nature, and in this new job, which ain't at all what it was cracked up to be, and with all the commuting and chauffering I'm doing, going against my nature has taken its toll.
993. labwabbit - 11/21/2000 8:28:21 PM
Those who can't...teach arky?
haha.
Sounds more like the duties of a war correspondent.
I agree...strong medicine includes a "gone fishin'" sign.
994. vonKreedon - 11/21/2000 8:30:32 PM
Hey Lab - I assume from your description that you live in Alaska, where?
995. labwabbit - 11/21/2000 8:30:52 PM
arky
What is 'malarky'?
My mom used to tell me I was full of marlarky many times.
I never did pusue the literal of that. The connotation was clear enough.
996. labwabbit - 11/21/2000 8:31:08 PM
"pursue"
997. labwabbit - 11/21/2000 8:32:34 PM
Von
Southeast (Inside Passage).
998. arkymalarky - 11/21/2000 8:39:06 PM
How long you been readin my posts, Lab? And you still don't recognize malarky when you read it? (if you just scroll by them, you needn't wound my delicate ego by admitting it).
As far as teaching, if all I had to deal with were the kids I'd have the perfect job. I had pretty close to it at my old school, even though I had a full schedule.
999. vonKreedon - 11/21/2000 8:39:14 PM
Lab - Yeah, that's what I thought. Juneau? I worked, to keep on topic, in Kodiak for several salmon seasons. I find myself missing it every May.
1000. arkymalarky - 11/21/2000 8:39:59 PM
oooh
1001. labwabbit - 11/21/2000 8:52:47 PM
ark
Never made the connection to your posts with what my mom probably meant. Her's were negative in nature I remember.
vonK
Not Juneau but very close. Isn't it beautiful in the Juneau area as well?
Had a good time with the Kings this past may and june. Largest was 41lbs. My daughter on her first trip here caught a 21 lb Silver which is classified as trophy size in AK. She did quite well that day and was completely exhausted by the time we got back in.
1002. sakonige - 11/21/2000 11:46:32 PM
I'm not as wealthy as I could have been, but I have a good family and I'm married to a good man. I have enough to keep me well occupied.
1003. sakonige - 11/21/2000 11:47:22 PM
labwabbit,
I expect teaching to be the most challenging occupation I have ever attempted. It is a lot easier to read than to write or speak.
1004. RickNelson - 11/22/2000 9:30:51 AM
Cal, I received your response and have used it already. Thanks.
1005. theDiva - 11/22/2000 9:43:39 AM
labwab
now you live in paradise.
WRT work vs. retirement....there are just so many interesting things to do and to see in this world that 'work' - as in earning a paycheck - seems to get in the way. I expect that initially I would do my fair share of lazing around - especially the way I feel now! - but I really am a doer who must keep busy and have projects going at all times. When I was a SAHM, I taught a cooking class one evening a week, and just doing the prep and background for that evening took me a good 15 hours a week...not because I had to, but because it was just so much fun. I also did a fair amount of volunteer promo work for the local rec center, and spent time in the gym every day (oh for that hard body now!) And I must have read at least three books a week. It was a very nice way to spend the hours when Gracie was in preschool or napping or sitting at her little table in the kitchen, drawing and painting or reading. Good days, those were.
1006. seadate - 11/22/2000 12:42:00 PM
Labwabbit -
Alaska! Are you hiding/running from something? :)
1007. seadate - 11/22/2000 12:49:30 PM
Labwabbit -
No offense intended - just sounds like you're a bookie.
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