WRT work vs. retirement....there are just so many interesting things to do and to see in this world that 'work' - as in earning a paycheck - seems to get in the way.
That is so true, particularly during the course of raising a family. I started my family at 18...that was bad...they are grown, my youngest is graduating (undergraduate) in May..my oldest graduated almost 2 years ago and has a successful career in hand ...that is good. Married 24.5 years and counting. (Couldn't tell you how I accomplished that! haha)
But damn it wasn't easy. Although I can easily look back now and say "Good days those were"! (The worry, fear, anxiety, and hopes and dreams of raising your children to adulthood.)
Between mil service, building a house (and home), a full time job as Programmer/Engineer +(sometimes teaching HS math or various adult evening courses, or selling insurance/securities), and keeping dual majors (Indust-Tech and Philosophy going for 9+ years), plus all the school activities of the kids and relatives ...I didn't have much time to think and reflect about it all. I'm only in my early 40's and I've got life by the balls...for the moment anyway...and that is good. Starting out early had/has its rewards. The world is there for the exploring now...and I'm still young enough to enjoy it. I approach life as if it may be gone tommorrow...
1009. labwabbit - 11/22/2000 12:55:59 PM
The key is, I'm quite satisfied that I have my two feet firmly on the ground, I consciously take nothing for granted, and the best things in life are truly free...that is if you paid the price.
In the moment that is a lifetime, only one is yours...only one...then you die...no exceptions. It is really amazing to me that it never sinks in profoundly enough until one gets older...or has faced death for whatever reason. It truly amazes me. Life moments lost in an ever-devouring pettiness and near-sight.
One of the most cherished statements made to me (almost daily it seems now) is..."Every time I see you, you are smiling..."
Life is good... and Thanksgiving will alwyas be just that.
1010. seadate - 11/22/2000 1:26:54 PM
"Life moments lost in an ever-devouring pettiness and near-sight."
Well put.
1011. labwabbit - 11/22/2000 1:28:46 PM
seadate
hahahaha. A bookie???
Yes, tis true, I AM running/hiding from somethings.
A bookie???
1012. labwabbit - 11/22/2000 6:53:36 PM
sak
It is a lot easier to read than to write or speak
I'm...speechless.
1013. labwabbit - 11/22/2000 9:48:33 PM
Sak
To me teaching is the most demanding, trying, and satisfying pursuit in the world. If it is done passionately. Too many view teaching and teaching positions as nothing more than a job. A great travesty imo.
Teaching was what I always wanted to do growing up, but circumstances led me on a different path. The only way I could afford college was to take advantage of job reimbursement. Job reimbursement required job related degree program selections...I needed a job, or stay in the military, to raise my young family...hence the Industrial Tech route. Once exposed, I chose electives based in Philosophy. I got hooked. Ended up admitted to the University's Honors Program. Candle was burning quite brightly at both ends by then.
After grad from Engineering, I began to teach night courses at the HS for special ed students and adult GED classes.
In fact, a teaching position was offered to me in Anchorage, but I turned it down for this position(s).
Teach sak...it is the noblest profession in the world. It can offer as much in return as one puts in to it....eventually.
Reading is not easy either, if there is no one to teach it.
1014. sakonige - 11/24/2000 7:13:56 PM
I'm bummed that earning less money means I won't have as many games and toys, but learning is the possession I have always valued most. My personal history allows me the opportunity to glimpse a depth of American history millennia deep. I have to accept the duty that comes with the opportunity, to participate fully in the history I claim as my own. Unfortunately, the work doesn't pay much, but I've discovered it gains entry into a kind of parallel universe that exists in Indian Country across North America and into Latin America where the things that matter most don't cost very much.
1015. sakonige - 11/24/2000 7:26:44 PM
labwabbit -
Too many view teaching and teaching positions as nothing more than a job.
I'm sure that's true. My intention is to offer my skills and education to the best advantage of the community I want to claim membership in. I don't have any illusions that I am an ideal candidate for a teaching career. But ideal candidates aren't available to teach math to extremely poor children in Indian Country. I'm available.
1016. arkymalarky - 11/24/2000 9:48:34 PM
"But ideal candidates aren't available to teach math to extremely poor children in Indian Country. I'm available."
That's so true everywhere, but the ideal candidates aren't necessarily the perfect-teacher-profile people (who I often find are less successful with the kids than they make administrators and parents believe), but those who share one common trait of having the priority in their jobs of wanting kids to learn.
I will say this about teaching being "just a job," though. I think the idea that's been fed more or less successfully to teachers and communities alike is that teaching is some sort of public service which brings in a little money for a great deal of work. Teaching is a profession, however, and teachers should be paid more in line with what their contributions are worth. I didn't go into teaching for the money, but neither did I go into it for purely altruistic reasons.
This has nothing to do with Lab's post, it just pricked a thought that recurs to me which I find very annoying about the system that teachers attempt to work within and which is contributing to the mass exodus of teachers from the profession--and a big part of it is not the money, but the time. Once it was a trade-off, but now there is an expectation of teachers to spend more and more hours on the job with more and more duties but without a corresponding pay raise. In addition, the stress of the extra load and added pressures add to teacher burnout, exacerbating an already crisis-level shortage of teachers and administrators.
1017. RickNelson - 11/25/2000 10:34:10 AM
State control vs Federal control of district level salary budgets. Funding is the whole deal. Teachers are part of the market shift/rift and are have been for as long as I've ever known. This is the disparity part of education in this country and there's nothing realistic we can do to fix it.
1018. RickNelson - 11/25/2000 10:38:16 AM
I suppose sometimes, one person can make a difference and realize salary increases, via fund raising, parent involvement or other outside, private sources. The gubment is to busy grubbing for dollars to notice the needs of the real people they serve. Oops, I mean, the real people they tax!
1019. arkymalarky - 11/25/2000 10:59:15 AM
The problem now, though, is that they literally do not have enough people to cover classes. It's not a matter of "teachers deserve more," it's "oops--the teachers have left the building."
The question of money isn't just an option any more. They will have to choose whether educated people will be teaching classes or whether they will just fill the void with non-certified personnel, especially in areas like math, where they may have to consider paying higher salaries than for other subjects and risk the wrath of teachers in those other subjects, who will also leave because they're close to retirement or can make more in the private sector.
There are 12,000 certified teachers in the state of AR alone who are choosing not to teach, and they had a severe shortage last year which is projected to get much worse in the next year and continue for the forseeable future, because universities aren't graduating teachers and their "alternative certifications" aren't attracting anyone. It's a good option for early retirement people drawing pensions who want a more or less part time job, but the work overload is so heavy right now, people like that are staying away and certified people are retiring as early as they can.
I've no real vested personal interest in all this, because I'm close enough to within sight of retirement and have job security and relative comfort and I've never been too concerned about the pay--what's made me maddest is the cut into my time which makes contract days a joke. I'm just fascinated to see how far this will go before something significant is done.
1020. arkymalarky - 11/25/2000 10:59:32 AM
I was joking with Bob's nephew, who's wrapping up a Master's in two areas of engineering, that he needed to get his alternative certification and teach math, since the AR legislature is proposing a $3000 raise over the next two years. Bob's principal said only 5 math-ed majors graduated in the entire state last year, and the overload due to teacher shortages and the pressure of full classes combined with high expectations on test scores is driving people like Bob out of the profession, as well.
There are many 9th graders at his (our) school that aren't even being offered the option of taking math at all this year, yet will have SAT9 scores published statewide when they take the test as 10th graders next Sept. Bob feels like their scores reflect badly on him, but what can he do about it?
1021. arkymalarky - 11/25/2000 11:00:42 AM
Another irony in AR is that its retirement system is in great shape and I've read that it's considered one of the best teacher retirement systems in the nation, so it is very attractive for teachers to retire as soon as they're able.
1022. phillipdavid - 11/25/2000 11:23:34 AM
If I became cash rich, I would drive a nicer car to work and take longer and more adventurous vacations...but I would still teach.
I am very thankful that teaching allows me to touch children in a way that enriches their lives, widens their perspectives, expands their hopes, and crystallizes their humanity.
When I am on my deathbed, I suspect I will be looking back and considering how, and how often, I made a positive difference in people's lives. I won't be thinking and feeling about my material possesions, or the vacations I took, but of how I touched people. If I can make a small or significant impact on people's emotional, psychic, spiritual way of being in the world, I will be satisied with myself and feel good about my life. Teaching allows me the arena in which to do so, and to do so frequently.
1023. RickNelson - 11/25/2000 11:33:48 AM
Kewl phillipdavid and arkymalarky. You're both great teachers and monitary value is not what either of you are about. It's obvious the human reason's outway the monitary. Kudos and admiration to you both.
If either of you had taught me, I would not have forgotten you as I passed through your school. I do recall the last teacher I ever had in an art class. She is the only one I recall with fondness and clear recollection. That was in 1979.
1024. arkymalarky - 11/25/2000 11:45:59 AM
A good teacher, whatever his or her basic philosophy of teaching and the role of a teacher in students' lives, will, imo, attempt to help students acquire what they need to think and learn for themselves above all else. I told my English class the other day that there are three main skills they should get from an English class: the ability to read and comprehend anything they choose to pick up (providing they have the requsite technical knowledge if its needed); the ability to write effectively whatever they choose to write, whether it be creative, technical, etc; and the ability to research and gain greater knowledge and understanding about anything they would like to know about.
My kids at my old school want me to come back, and I'm very flattered and touched by their words. I miss them a lot. But I also know that the best teachers aren't always the most loved ones or the most inspirational, or the most remembered. In fact, you can judge the best teachers you had by what you are now able to do as a result of your education.
Case in point: Bob's English teacher from 7th-12th grade. Though they had a personality clash that wouldn't quit, he readily acknowledges looking back that she was the best teacher he ever had. She was not a nurturer, but one who insisted on maximizing student performance. I had the pleasure of working with her late in her career before our little school was closed down by the state. She retired at age 78, certified in English, Latin, Science, Social Studies, and I don't know what all else.
1025. arkymalarky - 11/25/2000 11:46:38 AM
it's
1026. arkymalarky - 11/25/2000 12:05:10 PM
A big PS on the posts about the teaching shortage crisis, though I've said it before--many teachers wouldn't consider leaving the system if it weren't for all the micromanagement/mismanagement, paper-chasing, etc, much of it from the state level, and the time-soaking non-teaching distractions, overcrowding, etc, that's plaguing public schools. Teaching, when teachers are allowed to pursue it as career professionals who know what they're doing, is the most rewarding job imaginable. But when it comes to the point that I'm not allowed the time and freedom to do a job well as a respected professional, I don't want to do it at all, and I wouldn't blame other teachers for feeling the same. The frustration of having no professional independence or respect from administrators and state ed depts takes its toll on teachers after few years of banging their heads against impenetrable walls.
1027. DanDillon - 11/25/2000 12:12:03 PM
arky Message # 1026,
You have perfectly crystalized my thoughts. I know I will miss the profession, but, all told I guess, not enough to stay.
Of course, I may return.....
1028. arkymalarky - 11/25/2000 12:20:42 PM
What's kept me in it so long, Dan, was being in a school with an administration that let me do my job and had learned how to appease the state ed dept, but not at the expense of the school. And surprise, surprise--the school's test scores rank higher than the surrounding schools, most of which are bigger and have more money. I could really see the results of our efforts, rather than going through the tiresome and fruitless wheel-spinning that I'm witnessing in my current school, where everyone is worn out, burned out, and morale is dangerously low for both kids and teachers.
The school system you're in makes a huge difference, I've discovered the hard way.
1029. labwabbit - 11/27/2000 12:15:29 PM
sak Message # 1014
...but learning is the possession I have always valued most...
If your doing anything for any other reason above this, you're doing it for the wrong reasons in my opinion.
arky
But when it comes to the point that I'm not allowed the time and freedom to do a job well as a respected professional, I don't want to do it at all, and I wouldn't blame other teachers for feeling the same.
And..
The school system you're in makes a huge difference, I've discovered the hard way.
Absolutely...Another, major contributor to the "travesty".
It's very, very hard to be a rose in a field full of (gov't-admin)buffaloes.
1030. rubberducky - 11/28/2000 3:41:08 PM
lord, this is so true in corporate America:
The tribal wisdom of the Dakota Indians, passed on from one generation to the next, says that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
However, in modern business, because of the heavy investment factors to be taken into consideration, often other strategies have to be tried with dead horses, including the following:
1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Threatening the horse with termination.
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Lowering the standards so that dead horses can be included.
7. Reclassifying the dead horse as living-impaired.
8. Change the form so that it reads: "This horse is not dead."
9. Hire outside contractors to ride the dead horse.
10. Harness several dead horses together for increased speed.
11. Donate the dead horse to a recognized charity, thereby deducting its full original cost.
12. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
13. Do a time management study to see if the lighter riders would improve productivity.
14. Declare that a dead horse has lower overhead and therefore performs better.
15. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.
1031. OhioSTOPAS - 11/28/2000 4:51:35 PM
15 should be, "Promote a certain part of the horse to a supervisory position."
1032. amax - 11/29/2000 7:33:11 PM
If and when I ever get the big score, I have always had it in the back of my mind to start a foundation to support ventures into space. Product of a childhood with too many sci-fi books, I suppose, and then later reinforced by having been exposed to how the government-dominated model of space exploration works. Basically, I want to set up, either with my own money or other people's, some kind of fund that pays the principle and compound intrest of a donation to the first person/corporation to do x, where x is defined as mining the asteroid belt, building an orbital beanstalk, developing a system to get material into orbit at a reasonable cost, etc. The idea being that while it may not happen for decades or centuries, given enough time even a small sum becomes large enough through compound interest to convince VC people that they will show a return on their money from the foundation even if all a private company does is just reach the objective, --whatever profits they derive from whatever activity is in their business plan is just icing on the cake. The big problem is designing an institution that can last 300+ years.... Hmmm. Maybe the catholic church??
1033. CalGal - 11/29/2000 7:34:11 PM
Did you ever finish your tale?
I must lead a dull life. If I had a ton of money, I think I'd turn into a hermit.
1034. amax - 11/29/2000 7:38:24 PM
Nope, I have several more installments on my computer, but I was waiting for the election brouhahah to die down before I finished it off. I'll rewrite and post later this week.
1035. amax - 11/29/2000 8:00:39 PM
BTW Calgal, you mentioned the MS 'permatemp' thing a while back in re the H1b thing. I know that MS has lost the battle on public perception on that one, but it is a well-riden rant on my part, so I hope you'll indulge me. Most of the things I assert below are gathered on anectdotal & personal experiences, not hard facts.
IMO, 'permatemps' who took part in the suit against MS are contract-breaking scumbags.
While they portrayed themselves as being victimised by not having health benefits and being forced to work long hours, that is not the real purpose of their suit. Most of the good ones(about half) were offered full time positions several times during their tenure, and turned them down. The reason why is that orange carders ('permatemps') make about 50% more than MS employees, based on a 40 hour week. In actuality, it is much more than that since MS has tons of money and noone cares if you work 80 hours a week every week. Moreover, MS is one of the few places that I know of that actually has been known to pay time and a half for overtime -- even for developers billing $100 an hour. As for health benefits, I know several guys who worked there as oranges for Volt, which in this area is known as the entry-level broker -- and which has quite generous benefits packages, including medical. I have seen several contractors, even lower level ones, easily extract benefits packages from brokers, simply because they can always transfer to another broker if they are not happy with their benefits level at the one they are at. Sure, by contract (with the broker) they shouldn't be able to work at MS for another broker, but in practice no broker is going to damage its relations with MS by having a contractor leave, or even make a fuss, about benefits.
1036. amax - 11/29/2000 8:01:01 PM
The real issue at stake for the permatemps was greed. They had been taking 50% higher paylevels, and blues were taking stock options instead. So. You're an orange, you think you are one of the smartest people on the planet, and you realise that if you had gone blue 5 years ago instead of taking the pay, you would be a multi-millionaire by now. So what do you do? Some people, rather than admit they were unlucky or unwise, decided it must be MS's fault.
The 'permatemp' lawsuit was about being retroactively issued stock options, not about medical benefits.
As for the oranges' that didn't ever get offered a blue, I have a general rule that if a current or former orange thinks that the 'permatemp' suit is just, that someone is probably a very poor coworker indeed. My personal experience tends to validate that opinion. Most of the people I work with now are former oranges, and as far as I can tell they unanimously share my view. Most of them would have taken a blue if it had been offered, I think, and most are very good at what they do, but they scorn those who took part in the lawsuit. And from what I hear, the lawsuit made it much more difficult on the current oranges' worklife.
Anyway, sorry for the extremism above. Feel pretty strongly about the subject. The whole issue seems to me like something out of Ayn Rand at her most misanthropic & paranoid.
1037. CalGal - 11/29/2000 8:05:08 PM
I am in total agreement with you. I get very cranky at the government.
What's really absurd is that the government spends a fortune on lawsuits like this to force companies to hire temps. But why? What is the advantage? Why, benefits, of course.
But why not just give all individuals not covered by the massive tax subsidy that is employee benefits the ability to purchase their own benefits, write them off, give them tax credits to make up the difference?
(sputter, sputter) is usually all you get in reply.
1038. amax - 11/29/2000 8:37:19 PM
Thanks Calgal,
I believe that much of the pressure that was placed on the government to bring suit, (or was it brought by the permatemps?) --anyway, a large player in the whole thing was unions. There was some former MS employee attempting to organize a lot of the oranges* into a union, and the unions are really interested in increasing membership in the tech sector as a whole. Bringing suit was, I think, their way of attempting to increase recruitment, plus they got a lot of PR points by framing the issue such that people percieved the whole thing as being a case of the big, evil corporation against the working stiffs at MS. You'll notice I am pretty short of hard facts and links on this issue. The reason is that I tend to splutter and rage when I look into the issue.
*Uh, to the non-Seattleites who might be reading this, orange and blue are the colors of the security card that MS gives you - if you are a full-time, benefited employee, you get a card with your picture on a blue background, if you are a contract worker, you get a passcard with your picture on an orange background. Blue=full time MS employee with stock options. Orange=Hourly 'contractor'
1039. CalGal - 11/30/2000 2:13:58 AM
anyway, a large player in the whole thing was unions.
Don't get me started. These are the bastards that got the hourly overtime limit lifted, the fuckers.
1040. EricCartman - 11/30/2000 2:48:50 AM
Cal Message # 1033:
I must lead a dull life. If I had a ton of money, I think I'd turn into a hermit.
Funny, that's precisely what I'd do, too.
Once (about 10 years ago) I got laid off from a pretty high-paying (for the area) job, along with a couple of friends. It was late April/early May, the sun was shining, birds singing and the grass green (or maybe the other way around). The unenjoyment checks were pretty cushy and we all had low rent at the time.
And the job sucked, I mean really, truly, fucking sucked. We had known the layoff was coming, and just to fuck with the supervisors, we ran a betting pool the last day, on what time of day we were going to get canned. (Sometimes it's fun having more balls than brains.)
So we had steady dough coming for 6 months, and felt like we'd been paroled. For that time, this is all I did, every day:
1041. EricCartman - 11/30/2000 2:49:12 AM
Maybe it means I still need to grow up or whatever, but if I won the lottery tomorrow and could walk away from it all, that's still pretty much what I'd do -- work out, play guitar, drink beer, hang out with the little woman. Travel. Read more, like I used to. Buy porno DVDs that have multiple angles. Be like the dude from Office Space.
1042. vonKreedon - 11/30/2000 2:53:46 AM
Amax - I don't disagree with your analysis of the actual suits brought against MS, but as a former MS blue badge I do have a quibble or two:
-I have a significant problem with concept of permatemp. It is a way for corporations to further distance themselves from the people who are doing the work that enables the corporation to make money. It furthers the alienation that people feel from their work and I believe that to be a bad thing.
Within MS it creates a two tiered society and I think that is bad. It creates discord in the workplace between people doing the same job, but who occupy different social classes within the corporate culture. This is not good for teamwork.
Also not good for teamwork is that we could not simply give a contract employee new responsibilities as the project changed, as they had been contracted to do X and we now needed Y. Also also, a contract employee has no particular reason to ensure that the team is successful, just that the contract employee slightly more than adequately fulfills the terms of the contract. Time saving measures, cutting what the contract employee is working on are all not in the contract employees interest, where they often were in the case of full employees.
Finally, the use of contractors for the Help Desk at MS continues to strike me a amazing. If I had any interest in corporate espionage, and I'm sure that there are many who do, Help Desk is one of the places that I would prioritize placing people.
- the cards are yellow and blue.
1043. CalGal - 11/30/2000 11:09:03 AM
Eric,
Introverts unite!
1044. CalGal - 11/30/2000 11:14:01 AM
vK,
All large companies have the two-tier system. It's not exclusive to MS. In fact, IBM had to deal with almost exactly the same lawsuit in the 70s. Intel has long-term contractors, Motorola does, IBM still does--pick the company, they've got the two-tier system.
In fact, that's the huge joke about it--watching everyone focus on MS like it's something they've thought up all by themselves. Worse, the results of this ruling makes life far more difficult for all future temp workers at MS--and that'd be bad enough, but the rules will constrict all temps everywhere.
I don't think there has been a single ruling on temp workers and hiring in the past 30 years that has resulted in a net gain for temp workers.
1045. vonKreedon - 11/30/2000 1:26:35 PM
Cal - Yeah, a totally standard business model,I still think that it sucks for the reasons given. I left IBM and went to MS when IBM outsourced its internal Helpdesk, and thus my position, in '92.
1046. CalGal - 11/30/2000 2:28:45 PM
I don't think it sucks.
What sucks is that the employees aren't taxed on their bennies. Like you. (g)
Of course, if MS didn't have to give their employees as many bennies as demanded by law, they'd be ready to hire all sorts of people.
But as it is, I see no harm in using temps to the extent that they want to be used. The harm comes when temps delude themselves into thinking that if they just do a good job, they'll be hired. If more people would simply refuse to work temp for longer than six months for any one company if they didn't get hired, MS and all the others would probably change.
1047. labwabbit - 11/30/2000 2:53:27 PM
Introverts unite!
Sounds like it should be more along the lines of "introverts disperse!"
1048. rubberducky - 11/30/2000 3:04:09 PM
Re: Message # 1046, CalGal.
If more people would simply refuse to work temp for longer than six months for any one company if they didn't get hired, MS and all the others would probably change.
aren't you assuming this is goal of temping?
i, for example, am 'temping' as a contractor - and am not interested in working for the client - as are others not affiliated with a consulting company, or indeed any company at all - at this particular client.
temps, especially, the ones that were at MS should just be tickled to bilk the company on OT and enjoy the extra $$ imo
1049. CalGal - 11/30/2000 3:05:14 PM
Ducky,
No, generally temps who work at these companies in the 2tier setup want very badly to be hired.
1050. rubberducky - 11/30/2000 3:09:18 PM
that could be, Cal, but it's not how i read amax's story.
at any rate, the OT was more than adequate, but i'm pretty sure we already agree on that.
1051. EricCartman - 11/30/2000 4:32:31 PM
Cal Message # 1043:
I think you may have hit on an oxymoron on a par with "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"....
1052. CalGal - 11/30/2000 4:35:25 PM
Cart,
I'm so proud.
Ducky,
I forgot to mention that you aren't a temp, you're an employee/consultant. Although it will be interesting to see how that line gets blurred in the future.
As for Amax's presentation of the temps, while I am sure that some of them didn't want to be hired, it is a safe bet that most of them did.
1053. vonKreedon - 11/30/2000 9:00:53 PM
I knew several contractors at MS that did not want to be hired.....but they all had partners who already were working at MS.
1054. rubberducky - 12/1/2000 8:40:45 AM
Re: Message # 970, CalGal
Ducky, I will try and review your resume tonight. Rick's seemed more time critical.
A-Hem
1055. rubberducky - 12/1/2000 8:48:34 AM
and so it begins:
U.S. labor organizers have scored their first major success in the dot-com world as customer service employees at a San Francisco start-up decided to vote on seeking union representation. Erin Tyson Poh, a local representative of The Newspaper Guild-Communications Workers of America, said Tuesday that a petition to certify union representation for some 36 employees at etown.com and ShopAudioVideo.com had been filed with the National Labor Relations Board. "Even though it is a relatively small group of people, it is big news for the Internet," Poh said. "It is a group of new economy workers who have decided to organize." -- Reuters
christmas comes early, eh CalGal?
1056. CalGal - 12/1/2000 11:16:42 AM
Dammit, I did review your resume. I have the notes somewhere. What the hell did I do with them?
Hahahaha on the union news. CS folks would strike me as the most likely to unionize, particularly if they don't believe that there is any upward path out of CS.
1057. arkymalarky - 12/3/2000 3:27:04 PM
Eric,
You and Bob could really share some fond memories wrt unemployment. He'd go back there in a heartbeat if it were possible. He wasn't nearly as active as you, except for the guitar playing, though he does have a few interesting adventures from it. One involved going with a hitchhiker to Mexico, running out of money, and paying their way back with the hitchhiker's pool and arm-wrestling skills in bars. Another involved getting a friend's truck stuck in the sand on a beach at Gulf Shores, Alabama, and wondering if they would be able to get it unstuck before the tide came in.
I have to work a little bit, or I get draggy and unmotivated to even get up, but I also get overloaded very easily, and require a lot of time off and workdays that aren't too stressful.
1058. labwabbit - 12/5/2000 2:27:07 PM
Hunter
Gatherer
or
Hunted and Gathered.
1059. CalGal - 12/6/2000 3:34:13 PM
Ducky,
I just reviewed your resume again, having not found my notes. However, my notes were all positive. I think the resume looks excellent. Nice format.
The only thing I would do is space it out just a bit in between bullets, and make it a tad less involved on non critical aspects.
I can give you some examples, if you're interested, either here or in email.
1060. rubberducky - 12/6/2000 3:38:10 PM
CG:
glad you liked the format - Microsoft did a good job i thought
please do send examples of make it a tad less involved on non critical aspects cuz i don't follow
1061. CalGal - 12/6/2000 5:07:41 PM
I sent an email off to you with an example.
1062. pogie - 12/6/2000 5:24:12 PM
Is it worth my trouble at all to take a helldesking temp/contract job or to hold out for one that pays better and is actually what I do? One agency strongly recommended I get some commercial business experience on my resume, but my current plan is to just rachet up things at my current work and finish some major projects instead of bolting to work at a for-profit place as a tech support person. This is only for the next 3-5 weeks, since after that, hiring for the work I want pretty much restarts in a major way. I just am wondering which would work better. I don't quite have the time to try doing both. I just don't want my noncommercial experience counting against me any more than it already is.
1063. CalGal - 12/6/2000 5:27:08 PM
Hmm.
It would be difficult, I think, to get a temp job asap right now. So from a financial perspective, I think you want to hold on to your current job. Once year end is over, I would start looking for fulltime work and temp work. If you get offered a temp contract that will improve your resume, I'd take it unless you feel within a week or less of getting a full time gig.
1064. pogie - 12/6/2000 5:40:50 PM
Well, helldesking is about the only thing that I could get work in immediately because of the xmas rush and such. I think I'll stay at work and have my boss pay me as a consultant in jan. He would do that immediately if I finished up things at work this month. Then my job would look less like a paid internship and more like a proper job. I really need to start getting used to demanding the amount I should actually get at a job. Might as well start now, heh.
1065. CalGal - 12/6/2000 5:47:52 PM
Pogie, I was operating under the assumption that your resume would benefit from the companies on your resume. If that's not true, I think your strategy is fine, particularly the part where you get more money.
1066. wabbit - 12/7/2000 5:09:52 PM
Some people here might get a kick out of this dotcom deadpool site.
1067. CalGal - 12/7/2000 5:29:32 PM
Wabbit,
I've heard of it before, but never seen it. I was out with a friend the other night and he mentioned that a previous startup of his went out of business. I can't think of which one it was right now, arggghh. Oh, it was Fabrik, but got renamed. Anyway, they called everyone in and said that's it as of today. Everyone's gone. They hadn't paid sales people's commissions or anything. The company could have closed up shop two months earlier to be clean, but they wanted to run it into the ground for some reason.
He told me that the posts at fuckedcompany were terrifyingly graphic on the subject.
1068. wabbit - 12/7/2000 5:38:47 PM
Cal,
Spunky's company just canned 280 people yesterday, no warning. They dropped their DSL service but didn't tell their customers. I suppose they'll get around to that. He's in engineering, one of the two departments that didn't lose anyone (but he's leaving the company anyway, end of the month). It's an education to read some of the posts. Of course, some are just inane.
1069. CalGal - 12/7/2000 5:40:47 PM
Glad he's leaving. It's always spooky when that happens.
I'm actually looking forward to a return of the true startup. In the past 10 years, startups have been entirely too easy and well paying. Too much money out there.
1070. jexster - 12/12/2000 2:52:40 PM
Raskolnikov - LEAVE THAT OLD WOMAN ALONE..I need help!
Been toying again with the idea of taking Econometrics as part of my MPA elective requirement.
mmmmm....
Check out this roadmap as I now understand it and tell me again why I'm an idiot?
Remedial Math leads to Calc I (forgotten 2 year of calculus and most of the rest of high school math)
Leads to 2 semesters of Econ Statistics on top of the Sociology Stats course
Finally to Econometrics by which time if I'm lucky, Altzheimers will only be in initial stage
1071. jexster - 12/12/2000 2:53:39 PM
Anyone else feel free to chime in before I take complete leave of my senses
1072. CalGal - 12/12/2000 3:07:28 PM
What is Econometrics?
1073. Slackjaw - 12/12/2000 3:35:01 PM
Jexster
What department is offering econometrics?
1074. Slackjaw - 12/12/2000 3:36:03 PM
Econometrics is statistical inference developed for issues of special relevance in economics and social science.
1075. Slackjaw - 12/12/2000 3:40:07 PM
For example, if you observe test scores of students who have self selected into music programs and those of students who have self selected out of them, and want to obtain estimates of the effect of the music program (apart from characteristics that lead to self selection) on test scores, you contact an econometrician.
1076. stostosto - 12/12/2000 3:45:42 PM
Thanks, Slackjaw. I've often been in that situation and didn't know who to contact.
1077. Slackjaw - 12/12/2000 3:46:06 PM
Jexster
If the Econometrics class you are thinking about is intended for Ph.D. students, I wouldn't take it. If it's not, you won't need that much background.
I don't know what your other statistics classes cover, and in particular whether the linear model is familiar to you, but a little algebra is all that's required to grasp most of econometrics for the public manager/policy analyst. That does not mean it's dumbed down; you can do some discrete choice and selection bias (which you have a moral obligation to learn) with that background. If you remember what a derivative *is*, let alone how to find one, the Gauss-Markov theorem will not be too mysterious. You are not going to prove theorems.
But by all means, consult the professor.
1078. jexster - 12/12/2000 10:25:47 PM
Slack - the Economics Dept offers the course. Its offered in the PA curriculum, a multi-disciplinary graduate program.
The common course is undergraduate. Here is what the instructor says and THANKS!
Hi John,
We no longer accept BA110. I would suggest you take Math 110 or one of the Calculus I courses. If you want to develop a policy
analysis focus, think about Calculus I. If you are a good student, it will not be that much more work than Math 110, and you will have
a more rigorous preparation for Econ 320. Also, starting in Fall 2001, we will be requiring a second statistics course for our majors.
The second course will include much of the material we now have in Econ 320. Econ 320 will become a higher level course.
1079. jexster - 12/12/2000 10:27:52 PM
f you observe test scores of students who have self
selected into music programs and those of students who have self
selected out of them, and want to obtain estimates of the effect of the music program (apart from characteristics that lead to self selection) on test scores, you contact an econometrician.
I could do that with what I learn in the Sociology Stats course, an undergrad prerequisite for the same program.
1080. Slackjaw - 12/12/2000 11:28:45 PM
Jexster
I could do that with what I learn in the Sociology Stats course, an undergrad prerequisite for the same program.
I kind of doubt it, it's not a simple matter of multivariate regressions (or ANOVA or contingency tables, still more plausible topics for an undergrad sociology class). But please elaborate.
Well, you can't get out of the prereqs obviously, but it sounds like you only need one for this metrics class (but I don't know what these course numbers are).
1081. rubberducky - 12/13/2000 9:09:18 AM
MS settles 'permatemp' case to the tune of $97 million
1082. arkymalarky - 12/13/2000 12:50:58 PM
Well, I've told a couple of people in email, but I'm going back to my old school next fall. I've missed my job and the kids and my friends a lot (and my room, which was really nice and roomy and cheerful and had windows), and I don't really care for the way they do things where I am now, though I do like the people and the kids there. Maybe if I'd been there 12 years I'd be used to it and wouldn't like the job I'm going back to, but I have a lot more autonomy and can really see the results of my efforts a lot better at my old school--there's not nearly as much paperwork and it's easier to just teach. Also, the changes I expected to occur in the administration at my old school aren't going to happen. Both the principal and supt are staying, when I'd thought they both would leave after this year, and I love working with them.
Now I'm anxious to go back, which is going to make this school year seem extra long.
1083. jexster - 12/13/2000 3:04:08 PM
Slack - The course numbers basically mean - "General Education Math". This is common in state universities but not offered where I went to undergrad....Only freshman math offering was Calculus - 6 units.
This is San Francisco State. The Economics Dept will accept as a pre-requisite for their 2 semesters of stats what, in my undergrad days, was viewed as high school math..trig, alegebra, pre-calculus stuff....the letter you see is from the Econometrics professor who recommends Calculus I (6 units taught by the Math Dept.) as the best course for one pursuing a Masters of Public Administration, Policy Analysis Emphasis (me maybe) notwithstanding her own department's lesser math offering "Math for Economists"
It seems to me that the Economics Department is planning a serious beefing up of Econometrics...whether the new heftier Econometrics course is in fact something that an MPA policy analyst should seriously consider, that is what I am considering...
The Econ Dept thinks its majors need to have a more solid Econometrics background.... The Department, in fact, has done a great deal of heavy duty Econometrics work and gotten a fine amount of press and academic acclaim for it.
Most recent example, a study of the economic impact of a proposed Living Wage Ordinance in San Francisco. Both UC Berkeley's School of Policy Analysis and SF State's Econ Dept were commissioned to study the cost implications of a scheme to force parties contracting with the City to pay its employees a living wage of $12/hr.
When the dust settled, the Berkeley study wound up in the dust bin, the State study relied on....
1084. CalGal - 12/13/2000 3:20:03 PM
Arky,
I think both decisions are wise: it was a good call to change jobs, and a good call to realize you didn't like it and go back.
Jex,
Hey, I went to SF State for two years.
1085. jexster - 12/13/2000 3:40:09 PM
Did 'ya Cal?
Another Golden Gater!
One HUGE plus for having to take,by current count, another 4 likely 5 undergrad courses, all those yummie 17-21 year old boys!
I'm sure to be as happy as a pig in shit!
1086. CalGal - 12/13/2000 3:42:27 PM
I transferred to SJ State, where I graduated. I wasn't ever particularly happy at SF. Probably because I'm a surburban at heart, and SF State is surely a city school.
What are you studying for, again?
1087. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 3:43:36 PM
Jex: I think Slack has answered most of your questions (and I suspect he has forgotten more econometrics than I ever knew). Where I might be able to help is in providing some context on the usefulness of econometrics outside an academic setting.
Basically, without much more advanced coursework, you won't be an econometrician, so your primary reason for taking the course would be to get a higher level understanding of some potential problems with multivariate regression (which you *may* have to use in a policy analysis job) or (more likely) to understand an econometric study that you come across in your research.
Whether or not you will actually need it depends on your career plans. I work as a policy analyst/program evaluator. Most of my clients are in the public sector, and damned few of them would know what to do with a regression if they ever saw one. As such, I find that I rarely use any statistics that aren't covered in a basic stats course. The only regression I have done in six years was one I did as a freebie on test scores for my wife's school.
However, there are jobs that do rely on it more. I was offered a job 5 years ago that would have required using a lot of that econometric knowledge. I declined because I wanted more variety to my work than number crunching.
To me, the primary value of the econometrics class I took was to aid in thinking. One of the first steps in using econometrics is in creating your hypothetical model of what the various independent variables will be, how they might potentially inter-relate, and what the nature of their relationships with the dependent variable might be. Since taking econometrics (and a few other classes) I constantly find myself creating mental models of a problem, and I find that this has been a great boon to the way I approach problems at work, and when I argue about policy issues in Internet forums.
So
1088. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 3:43:44 PM
, unless you want to pursue this stuff in great depth, I would recommend that you take minimal math, and pursue classes which have more focus on the conceptual approach than the actual nitty gritty of math.
And In hindsight, I wish I had taken a class (if it was even offered) on how to deal with messy data. It is most annoying that in academia you deal exclusively with perfect data sets, but once you hit the real world you have to deal with miscoded data, lots of missing values, omitted variables, and information that doesn't mean what you would intuitively think it means. I wish I had been prepared better to distrust any dataset, and ask lots of questions about it, while learning some tools that could potentially correct these problems, or at least determine how potentially important they were.
1089. jexster - 12/13/2000 3:51:00 PM
Thanks Rask & thanks Slack...
My adviser happily is Chair of the MPA Program and Associate Dean of the College of Behavioral & Social Sciences.
I've taken the liberty of cutting and pasting excerpts from the both of you in a flurry of emails to her.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the Econ Dept may have put one over on her and made what is a multi-disciplinary offering more than the MPA Dept co-sponsor may have wished.
And, needless to say, I have already stirred shit as is my wont.
Thanks for arming me for my meet with the Faculty Advisor.
1090. jexster - 12/13/2000 3:52:30 PM
Cal -
Master of Public Administration - a third set of letters to follow my signature - with a minor in post-adolescent males.
1091. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 3:53:06 PM
I would also tend to recommend against purely abstract math at this point, unless you are planning to go heavily into data analysis. Particularly if you took high school level calculus. You don't need much more than a conceptual knowledge of differentiation and integration to get by on most Policy Analysis coursework.
But it does depend on how deep you want to go, and how comfortable you are figuring things out yourself.
1092. CalGal - 12/13/2000 3:54:30 PM
What does one do with an MPA?
1093. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 3:58:18 PM
Jex: Your mileage may vary. One of my gripes with my PA program was that it was excessively academic. I learned a lot, and much of it has proven valuable, but the school could have used a very healthy dose of pragmatism. A couple years after I left, one of my faculty advisors (an econ prof and former state legislator) became Dean and gave the school a dose of realism. They now have fewer classes on population policy in China and more classes on how to conduct a survey and how to get usable data out of management information systems.
1094. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 4:03:14 PM
messy data in econometrics is like a messy information structure in microeconomics. Academics deal with it all the time, it's just not handled until more advanced classes.
Which does seem a strange way to cover this stuff for the policy analyst -- deal last with the most relevant problems.
1095. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 4:04:33 PM
What does one do with an MPA?
becomes a faceless bureaucrat usually, or in my case, a Ph.D. student (soon not to be anymore...hooray).
1096. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 4:07:37 PM
Cal: You can get hired as a policy analyst, evaluator, researcher, grant administrator, manager, legislative analyst, budget officer, program coordinator, lobbyist, data analyst, consultant, or many other options. Of my closest friends in Grad school...
One works as a budget officer for the federal Offie of Management and Budget. (examines budgets requests from federal agencies for the President, and helps write the annual budget)
One works as a legislative analyst in Arizona (analyzes agency requests for the state legislature - where is the money going, how can it be used better, etc.)
Several, including myself, are consultants, doing survey work, evaluation, research, analysis to whoever hires us.
One is a computer programmer for an energy utility (started out as an economist, and ended up learning a lot of database programming to do his job, to the extent that eventually went for the money as a database programmer).
Another is a legislative analyst here in Minnesota.
Yet another works as an evaluator for Legislative auditor, which does large scale legislatively mandated studies of government programs.
Another is a park planner for the state DNR.
Another is a researcher/lobbyist for a group of local governments.
Another works on transportation policy for the Metropolitan Council (responsible for coordinating issues across jurisdictions in the metro area).
etc.
1097. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 4:08:52 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that the Econ Dept may have put one over on her and made what is a multi-disciplinary offering more than the MPA Dept co-sponsor may have wished.
That's the danger of having applied econometrics taught by an actual econometrician, they very often refuse to compromise, and significantly overestimate the students' learning rate.
I agree with Rask about how much math you should bone up on. Take the minimum. Get your B and get on with learning the linear model.
1098. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 4:10:59 PM
But I urge you, Jexster, with all moral fervor, learn what selection bias is and how to deal with it. You may have to seek out this information on your own.
1099. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 4:11:27 PM
Slack:
"messy data in econometrics is like a messy information structure in
microeconomics. Academics deal with it all the time, it's just not
handled until more advanced classes."
Yeah, I have seen mention of classes on it, and seen reference to more advanced tools that can be used in such situations. I know it is out there.
"Which does seem a strange way to cover this stuff for the policy
analyst -- deal last with the most relevant problems."
Bingo. Upon leaving grad school, I knew how to do a logit regression, and correct for heteroskedacity, but I didn't know how to port data from a proprietary database system into my statistical analysis software. And my "stats" software at the time was Quattro, not the SPSS and STATA I had learned in school.
1100. CalGal - 12/13/2000 4:13:09 PM
Being a dba programmer pays more than an MPA?
1101. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 4:13:38 PM
"But I urge you, Jexster, with all moral fervor, learn what selection bias is and how to deal with it. You may have to seek out this information on your own."
Slack is right. This should be covered in any basic stats class, or research methods class. If you aren't planning on taking either of these, you should do so. Or just read a good book on it.
1102. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 4:16:45 PM
Most people in my MPA class started at -9 for the Federal government (or its equivalent elsewhere), which if I remember correctly is (or was, I finished mine in '97) around $45k-$50k. A few people went to consulting firms for more. A few people went to bird-and-bunny foundations for less. I would say the interquartile range was $40k-60k.
1103. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 4:17:08 PM
started at GS-9, that is
1104. CalGal - 12/13/2000 4:21:42 PM
Wow. That's with a Master's degree, yes? Amazing.
I keep on thinking of going back to school, but every time I do I am reminded that I could go to school for a long time and a lot of money to make far less in the end.
1105. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 4:25:23 PM
Cal: do recall that you live in an area with a high cost of living. I am sure MPAs would be paid more in the Bay area. But still not enough to compete with the private sector.
But most MPAs are public employees, with salaries that are seriously capped. If you want to make money with a Master's degree, an MBA is the way to go.
1106. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 4:27:55 PM
Most of my Fed friends, after about 5 years experience now, are making about 60k.
1107. CalGal - 12/13/2000 4:30:28 PM
Rask,
Yes, that's the conclusion I'd arrived at as well. And even then I'd have to stay in high tech if I wanted to maintain the same income without having to cut back first.
I am just amazed at all these graduate degrees that don't pay as much as one would expect.
1108. jexster - 12/13/2000 4:52:26 PM
Yea Slack I've already had a dose of The Evils of Selection Bias in my research methods course...another in the Soc Stats follow on I had to abort this semester....expect more in "Research Methods in Public Administration" and "Managing Information in the Public Sector" and still more in the 2 Econ Dept Stats courses and Econometrics if I decide to bite the math bullet first...
Thank you and Dr. Stowers also thanks you
1109. pogie - 12/13/2000 5:03:03 PM
Based on the grad students I know, grad school that is non-mba is fine if you want to be holed up doing slightly obscure research mainly. It's pretty good for research and I wish undergrad was similar-- three classes or so, lots of independent research. But it's not interdisciplinary enough for the stuff I want to do unfortunately. Also, I dislike the ascetic living a lot grad students go with for years and years.
Cal, have you looked into executive mba programs? Don't know if that has been mentioned as an mba option. Also don't know how many high-end schools offer it, but they basically give you an mba in about a year while you work. Usually requires several years of management experience.
1110. jexster - 12/13/2000 5:07:13 PM
Cal -
One might for instance be hired by Kathleen Harris to develop standards for vote counting with the Votamatic to answer the question
"Is a dimpled chad clear evidence of voter intent"
What with her burning interest in having every vote count, I'm sure she's dying to know (in a pig's eye!)
Or if not 25 states now have invalid elections laws and each needs an MPA to help them develop "standards"
1111. CalGal - 12/13/2000 5:09:26 PM
Pogie,
Yeah, I've heard of them. They are extremely expensive, are generally for people who have been and want to be executives. I don't qualify on either count. I don't want an MBA to go be veep somewhere.
Jex,
Don't you go be bringing that chad into this thread.
1112. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 5:23:33 PM
Pogie
But it's not interdisciplinary enough for the stuff I want to do unfortunately.
That depends on the program you choose. The administrative unit granting my degree is aggressively interdisciplinary and does not recognize departments at all. (In fact the whole institute does not. There is no physics department for that matter.)
What is your field of interest?
1113. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 5:27:12 PM
An MPA program is no more research oriented than an MBA program in general, and given the growing segmentation between MPA programs and academic departments on which they draw, probably becoming less so. If research is what you want to do, don't take a professional degree. If real research is what you want to do, then a Ph.D. program is the only way. MA/MS programs by and large are too quick and light on the requirements. You will learn lots about what others have said about your field and topics of interest but will have little opportunity to say anything that will get noticed in your field besides by your own faculty.
1114. Raskolnikov - 12/13/2000 6:02:43 PM
Slack: what I want to know is how you could endure 4 years of undergrad, two years of a Master's program, and umpteen years of ECON grad school. Tell me that your MPA at least exempted you from some of the requirements of the Caltech grad program.
All I can assume is that you married well or got a very nice fellowship. I was so fucking sick of ramen noodles by the time I got my Master's...
1115. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 8:05:55 PM
haha, well, I am married but my wife is a public school teacher, so that ain't it. Caltech is less stingy about support than many places and I've had fellowship support for 2 of my 4 years. My BS-MPA took 5 years combined, so it's only going to be 9 years total, not 10. I got exempted from precisely nothing here based on my MPA work. I could have taken the prelim exams whenever I wanted but there was nothing I could have hoped to pass based only on the MPA background, and in retrospect I am glad I didn't try.
No question, work based on an MPA is a pay cut for many people who do it. Going to a consulting firm out of a decent MBA program (or increasingly Ph.D. program in a numerate discipline) can easily lead to 6 figure starting salaries.
1116. pogie - 12/13/2000 8:11:19 PM
Slack, I'm into linguistics, particularly developing software and hardware for translation of natural and computer languages. At least, that is what I ultimately want to spend a lot of free time on. I'd like to expand on current neurolinguistic and neurobiological research, particularly with multilingual and sign language speakers. Right now I am doing ethnographic stuff, but that is a sideline, heh. I somehow think my exasperation with school will prevent me ever entering graduate studies, though. ;D
1117. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 8:15:13 PM
Carnegie-Mellon is an interidisciplinary-friendly place that should be good at that stuff, I would imagine.
1118. Slackjaw - 12/13/2000 8:16:28 PM
The key for getting an academic job from an interdisciplinary unit is finding one that is truly interdisciplinary but whose faculty members are well regarded in their component disciplines as well. It's easy for interdisciplinary programs to be a no-man's land.
1119. jexster - 12/13/2000 8:24:39 PM
MPA, lower pay, nice benes, fraction of the stress of litigation and a venerable pedigree
Wilson, W. (June 1887) "The Study of Administration" Political Science Quarterly
AND no competition!
I mean how many applicants do you think there are for the position of Faceless Bureaucrat in this New Age of Prosperity?
1120. jexster - 12/13/2000 8:52:58 PM
Not to bring chad into this, but for any and all who plan to be lawyers, especially litigators, a caution, perhaps a warning...
Take note of the lawyers in the FL Elections Cases. What you saw, that Chinese firedrill, is for many, was for me, the work experience that made practice worthwhile.
At least for a time. I've done about a dozen like that, none, of course, of such massive scale but each identical in pace, emotional output, impossibly long hours, exhaustion, and each some compensation for the 99% of legal practice that is unquestionnably a dull grind (and you think law school's a grind?). These are the moments when it all seems worthwhile but.....
Point is that a to me a surprising number of litigators come to a point, some early, some quite late, when they ask "How in the hell, why in the hell did I get into this?"
1121. jexster - 12/13/2000 8:54:09 PM
And then there are the practices of a large number that never experience the high of the Fire Drill....
1122. jexster - 12/13/2000 9:38:21 PM
Al D...
When I call, probably tommorrow, you'll not know who I am if someone else answers....
Its John McCutchen, Esq., Angry White Man, nemesis of JV, Wannabe White Man
1123. lemwalker - 12/27/2000 7:36:53 PM
take the one on the bottom and put it on top.
1124. CalGal - 12/28/2000 8:12:22 PM
EEOC Rules on Disabled Temps
One in a series of damn fool notions to further blur the line between temp and full time employees. As if it would make any difference.
The guidelines apply to workers with disabilities who are placed by temporary-employment agencies or contract firms. They were meant to clear up confusion about whether the agency that places a worker or the company that uses a worker's services is responsible for providing special accommodations under the Americans With Disabilities Act.
Both are, according to the new guidelines: The temp agency and the company that uses the agency's workers are essentially co-employers for these purposes. Effective immediately, companies that don't comply with the guidelines could be liable if an employee files a complaint.
I just love the way the government tries to do an end run around its own rules. They create a sinecure for employees by forcing employers to give them all sorts of benefits. Naturally, this means employers are going to want to use temporary workers. First they hire them directly, but the government said no, if you do that, they're employees. Then they hired through agencies, but the government says now no, if you do that, they are still your employees if it means they get stock options. And oh, by the way, did we mention that anytime we create some meaningless feel good gimme for real employees, we'll declare that you have to treat your temp employees as de facto employees so they can get that too.
Sigh.
1125. RickNelson - 12/28/2000 9:33:30 PM
Well Calgal,
I have accepted a agency supplied temp job, starts Sat. 8 hours each Sat. and Sun. 3-11pm. Works good for me through school. However, I'm still looking for a decent full-time job too. I've started with Hall Kinion today also, having their service attempt to place me. Hall Kinion seems to be a contract agency. I'm not to happy to do contract work, unless it's 3 month spans, perhaps 6 month would be Ok.
My new job will be a batch monitor. Three different collections to watch load and then FTP. A very few Unix commands, update email status reports of loads, and FTP's and there ya go. Best part is they've no problem letting me study on company time.
This will do for a start.
1126. RickNelson - 12/28/2000 9:34:29 PM
I signed a doc. stating that the agency which placed me is solely responsible for any work comp. That's all I recall which may relate to what you just posted.
1127. CalGal - 12/28/2000 9:55:21 PM
Rick,
First off, congratulations on landing your first gig in your new profession, and extra kudos for getting a part time gig while finishing school! That way you finish school with experience and the first entry on a resume.
Don't regard my post above as some sort of slam on temp workers. (I am first and foremost a temp worker, remember.) Rather, I am annoyed at the government's contradictory and often duplicitous finangling with their wellbeing.
Temporary work is an excellent way to build a resume. It can often lead to a fulltime position, but the important thing to remember is that many employers will lead on temps, allowing them to think that they might get hired if they just do all sorts of extra work for the lower rate. Don't be fooled. Another thing to look for is whether or not your position is what is called "permanently temporary" (particularly common at huge companies like Intel, 3M, Motorola, MS, and IBM). If so, you will never get hired for that particular job, no matter how wonderful you are, and chances are good you won't be given special consideration for any other full time positions in the company unless the hiring manager happens to know you and is interested in you before you apply.
But there are plenty of companies where they use temp workers as a tryout for hiring, and you'll find those as well. Just make sure you know what they are like, and don't hang out a long time at a big company just because you like their benefits and really really hope they'll hire you in the face of all indication to the contrary.
One other thing to remember: even though they say it's okay to study while on the job, do your damnedest to look like you're working when other people are around. Perception is everything, particularly with temp workers.
1128. rubberducky - 12/29/2000 8:04:09 AM
here's a review telling us what we already know: monster.com is the best job hunt site.
1129. CalGal - 12/29/2000 10:14:12 AM
Well, I don't know it. I think DICE is far more useful than Monster. But I defer to the majority thinking on it.
1130. rubberducky - 12/29/2000 10:18:12 AM
CG:
as a general rule, i don't like any site where i must register before i can use the best features of a site. last time i used it, monster didn't make you and dice did.
1131. CalGal - 12/29/2000 11:08:17 AM
Like It or Not, Appearance Counts in the Workplace
Other factors being equal, the unfortunate 9 percent of working men whom interviewers classified as "below average" or downright "homely" made 9 percent less in hourly earnings than did more attractive men. By contrast, the 32 percent of men classified as "above average" or "handsome" got a wage premium of 5 percent. Women took a 5 percent hit for bad looks and earned a 4 percent premium for beauty.
...
To tease out more specifics about how beauty works in the labor market, in a 1998 paper Professors Hamermesh and Biddle looked at a more homogeneous group of workers: lawyers who graduated from the same law school. The school provided photos of the students, their class rank and law- review status, data on their earnings a year, 5 years and 15 years after graduating, and information about the nature of their practices. The economists then had each photo rated by a panel of four — a man and a woman under 35 and a man and a woman over 35 — with a score of five meaning "strikingly handsome or beautiful" and a score of one meaning "homely, far below average in attractiveness."
Again, Professors Hamermesh and Biddle found that better-looking lawyers made more money, especially as their careers progressed. Fifteen years after graduating, they noted, "better-looking midcareer attorneys were billing at higher rates, not just billing more hours."
1132. CalGal - 12/29/2000 11:12:31 AM
Within this general pattern, Professors Hamermesh and Biddle looked for differences between subgroups that might indicate why better-looking lawyers earned more. If, for instance, law firm partners simply discriminated to suit their own tastes, then self-employed lawyers should be immune from the economic effects of their looks. But, the economists found, "if anything, beauty pays off more for self-employed junior attorneys than for employees."
That suggests that clients, not hiring firms, make the difference.
To test that idea, the economists looked at the difference between private-sector lawyers, who have to woo clients, and public- sector lawyers, who do not. The results were striking. The private sector not only drew more attractive lawyers to start, but the looks gap grew over time.
Good-looking government lawyers tended to switch to private firms, while less-attractive lawyers moved from law firms to government jobs.
Good-looking people "will go into fields where their beauty is more important," Professor Hamermesh said. "They'll switch to those areas where the payoff is greater." The higher payoff to good looks, he emphasizes, comes from "consumer discrimination," not employer tastes.
[Key plot point:]
It is tough to admit that something as superficial and preordained as personal beauty could be genuinely valuable in the marketplace. But the rewards for good looks are too pervasive to blame mean-spirited employers.
"All of our discrimination policies are based on the employer, yet the evidence we have says that there are these wage differentials, they seem persistent, they seem consistent with any kind of theory, and all the evidence points to them being caused by the way consumers feel," Professor Hamermesh said. "In other words, the problem is all of us."
1133. RickNelson - 12/29/2000 11:32:57 AM
Thanks Calgal,
This opportunity is with a HUGE company. It very well could be considered a permanent part-time position. The good part is it's on a weekend, so that could allow for a lateral inclusion of fulltime. I'll keep all you've mentioned in mind and act accordingly. All you've mentioned makes good sense for the newbie.
My trainer last evening works is part of the team working on and overseeing what I'll be doing. He and others do the same thing all day, and more. He also freelances to set up new networks within this company. I've already asked he keep me in mind for any PC hardware upgrading he might need, I thought that might be a place he might let me help. Then I would get my feet wet with that adding more to "open the door".
The network is gigantic and uses a lot of fiber optics and he mentioned Cat6 is on the way from each workstation. He's into the heat resistant(name?) wiring. He subs out the routers and some other mechanical parts, then he and some others wire up the new network. This building is gigantic, like a college campus. I noticed about 4,000 square feet was empty for remodelling and he is likely working towards freelancing that area. Hope he took me seriously, but I'll be patient. I'm antsy to get my fingers in the network pie.
1134. RickNelson - 12/30/2000 7:28:27 PM
Just checkin in from the new job. I'm tentative with browsing for now but, time will tell.
I sit here alone, so this could be a nice place to pass some time. I'm monitoring so there isn't much to do while the FTP's are loading.
1135. Stumbo - 12/30/2000 11:20:31 PM
CG:
Isn't it equally plausible that good-looking people, as a result of having gotten more dates/sex/etc. throughout their lives, are more confident and assertive -- and, because of that, are more likely to (1) be perceived as more competent, and (2) negotiate better deals for themselves even when they are not so perceived? This would, of course, also explain why they tend to switch to private firms, since there's more salary-haggling latitude there than in government.
("Hamermesh and Biddle." Heh. I don't know why, but those names just crack me up.)
1136. CalGal - 1/1/2001 11:05:56 AM
Rick,
Good luck! Consider surfing time as the equivalent of school work. Even though they say it's fine, don't let them catch you at it too often.
Stumbo,
Hey, that's interesting. I was focusing more on the "it's what the clients, not the employers, want" aspect and didn't think about other correlations. So it could be that the real attribute is something that just shows up more in the pretty people.
1137. CalGal - 1/1/2001 11:10:44 AM
Japanese Women Find Glass Ceiling Reinforced With Iron
Japanese companies, apparently, are willing to loosen their immigration laws rather than hire women.
Rationale: women are more likely to quit when they marry and have children. I read the article looking for stats proving that this wasn't likely, and found none. Hmm.
What I did find was this comment:
"Our poll shows that between 70 and 80 percent of women want to continue to work until retirement age," said Hiromi Harada, a leader of the Association of Female Students Against Job Discrimination. "Moreover, very few women say they want to quit when they have a child. The fact is that many women quit when they have children because of the cost of day care. And if we want to change this, we should take measures to make day care more common and more affordable."
So they don't want to quit, but they are? If so, why would companies hire them if their concerns are realistic? (given no requirement to do so.)
1138. wonkers2 - 1/1/2001 1:56:12 PM
Cal, Who do you think should be responsible for compliance with OSHA rules for temps? Obviously the company that is using the temps, not the temp agency. What about discrimination rules? To me the answer is that the using company should be responsible for anything that happens inside the doors of his office or factory, the same as for "regular" employees. Otherwise the ability to use temp employees would be a huge loophole allowing employers to do whatever they want to temps with impunity.
1139. CalGal - 1/1/2001 2:12:53 PM
OSHA rules are the responsibility of the company providing the work place (the hiring company). I believe, however, that a temporary worker should be able to complain to their agency if OSHA standards aren't being met and the agency should be mandated to report it to whoever. If the agency doesn't report it, they could be fined. Obviously, the agency doesn't want to rock the boat, but that's true for all sorts of companies complying with regulations.
Discrimination: ditto. If a temp agency notices that a client is systematically rejecting blacks, women, or whatever, then they should report it. If they report it, they've done their job. They should also continue to send minority applicants; if they start abiding by the client's discriminatory policies, they get slammed.
If the government feels that either the client or the temporary agency is discriminating against handicapped workers, then they should just say so and get into the sticky issues involving why employers don't want disabled temp workers and why quite often it is a reasonable thing not to want. But to fuzz the issue by blurring the line between employees and temps is just useless.
1140. CalGal - 1/1/2001 2:13:27 PM
My first two paragraphs are describing how things would be in The Perfect World I'd Rule.
1141. msgreer - 1/9/2001 6:39:34 AM
Yes, I too would stop working if I could afford it. What would I do?
Move closer to my daughter and go to Law School.
1142. wonkers2 - 1/9/2001 7:20:15 PM
Not working is over-rated. I tried it for two years and am now happy to be back in the saddle again, so to speak.
1143. arkymalarky - 1/9/2001 9:06:38 PM
Some of my best friends are lawyers (ha), but what is the deal about law school?
1144. arkymalarky - 1/9/2001 9:09:02 PM
Wonk,
I'd like to try it and see if I agree with you.
Actually, one of the things I like best about school teaching that makes up quite a bit for the low pay is the fact that I have plenty of time to regroup and rejuvenate myself and be a homebody, and about the time when I'm becoming so worthless I'm not worth shooting, school's starting back up.
1145. msgreer - 1/9/2001 10:27:07 PM
arky
With my RN degree combined with a law degree I can finally go after the HMO's and other insurance companies. I know my letterhead showing the HMO's, insurance co., hospitals et al I not only know the law but am a lawyer as well as a medical professional will get their attention. That is why I am willing to join the law profession.
1146. arkymalarky - 1/9/2001 10:33:07 PM
OK, that's not quite the same as making a complete career change then, which is what I was thinking of.
1147. ChristinO - 1/12/2001 3:46:14 PM
rrkn-frrkn-rrkn-frrkn-damn-Damn-DAMN!!!
I was just notified this morning that I will be moving offices yet again and once again I will NOT be moving to the office I need to be in to keep track of my freakin' inventory. They're hauling me over to the administrative office where I can now offer support to the accounting and administrative departments. I KNEW I should never have left the first floor. Every time they move me I get farther away from the tech end of things and closer to the paper-pushing end of things and I'm heartily sick of it.
Not only that but I will now be out in a huge open area with my back and my monitor to the rest of the room which makes me totally paranoid.
Time to dust off the resume, take a class and find another job.
1148. Fraaankster - 1/12/2001 4:19:29 PM
Christin,
(Hugs, hugs)
I'm sorry to hear that, Chris. By the way, did that other issue you told me about at the airport ever get resolve to your satisfaction ?
1149. ChristinO - 1/12/2001 5:53:13 PM
I never actually discussed it with her. Come to find out that's about par for the course if you work in the office/administration area of this company. That's another reason I'm so irritated by this move. I hate interoffice politics and thought I had succesfully avoided all of that crap here. I was happily on my way to sitting in the lab with the engineers where I could do my job and keep all of the crap at bay and now I find I'm going to be dropped right into the middle of it.
CalGal's going to kick my ass. She told me to get out four months ago.
1150. CalGal - 1/12/2001 6:04:57 PM
Well, I'm glad you pointed that out before I donned my boots. Get out. And it's better to check around now, because the economy might slow down and reqs dry up.
Ducky, how about you?
1151. rubberducky - 1/16/2001 10:35:56 AM
CG:
i've decided that if the consulting company ponies up a 12-15% raise, then i'll stay where i am (i.e. the same client) for now. i figure there are worse things than getting paid a decent wage to sit around 99% stress free doing next to nothing.
1152. rubberducky - 1/16/2001 10:39:41 AM
Are You A Fighter?:
Whenever people spend significant amounts of time together, conflict inevitably arises. The test of a true professional lies in the manner in which they handle such disputes in the workplace. An important first step is understanding your personal conflict management style. The following quiz will help to determine yours.
i had an even split between Avoidance & Analyzing with just a dash of Assertive - which for anyone who knows me, is not a surprise.
You often resent others, but actually keep your feelings hidden and repressed.
&
Listening is one of your strengths, but you do have a tendency to cave in to keep harmony.
well ... yes, now that you mention it.
1153. CalGal - 1/16/2001 11:22:42 AM
I was avoidance all the way down the line.
Not.
I found the test a bit misleading because it often either missed or split up my solution. For example:
2. Conflict is brewing between two of your co-workers. You would be most likely to:
a.Avoid both of them until it is over.
b.Observe the situation carefully prior to acting.
c.Act as mediator.
d.Let them know how disappointed you are.
I would most likely observe the situation carefully and then say, "Knock that shit off!" or mediate, depending on what my analysis led me to think was the most effective method. (I would not be letting them know how disappointed I am. What the fuck am I, their mom?)
But I think they are assuming that those who answer B would not act, and I would. So that makes me Assertive.
The obvious comment made to me is "Yeah, right. You're an aggressive." Eh. I don't need to have control and the upper hand--in fact, I find the notion of managing and controlling others to be extremely unattractive. That said, I often find I have to be way "out there" in order to ensure my ideas get heard in the first place, because my ideas are a) generally odd and not instantly obvious and b) quite often either an excellent solution or a valid objection that should be considered. Consequently, my manner will often steamroll quiet people who think I am too aggressive and eager to run them down. A constant problem. On the plus side, I have a real success rate in both getting my ideas adopted and reassuring the quieter folk that I am not, in fact, the Demon Bitch Queen from Hell--in general, professionals who know me well rank me high on persuasive, albeit lousy with politics. So I plead not guilty to overall aggressiveness, despite the certainty of a minority.
Great link, Ducky. And if you're Avoidant (brisk smack across the face), snap out of it! Extremely counterproductive.
1154. rubberducky - 1/16/2001 11:33:55 AM
Re: Message # 1153, CalGal.
I found the test a bit misleading because it often either missed or split up my solution.
i found this to be the case a couple of times myself, actually.
but, as a consultant, i rarely - if ever - get into meeting fights. i don't think it is my place unless i am directly involved and would rather the employees work it out. the most i've gotten involved in recent memory would be a request for some combatants to take the 'discussion' 'offline'.
And if you're Avoidant (brisk smack across the face), snap out of it! Extremely counterproductive.
not for a pragmatist like me. mostly, it just isn't worth the time and energy to get involved. i'd rather continue coding as i am paid to do and if it gets to the point where i am unhappy, leave the client for another one. case solved with a minimum of fuss. some call it lazy - i call it practical.
1155. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 2:21:00 PM
got a job offer...political science dept. at Michigan State. Have about 3 weeks to decide. Still waiting on the University of Chicago to decide (went there last week) and to go on a few campus interviews for economics positions.
1156. CalGal - 1/16/2001 2:26:52 PM
Hey! I've missed you!
Great news about the job offer. Is Michigan on the list of acceptable places? What are the odds of University of Chicago coming through?
1157. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 2:33:48 PM
Michigan *State* -- yes, definitely acceptable. Chicago is about 50/50 right now, I'd say. Frankly I'm not sure which of those two I'd rather take. Chicago is obviously a better school but that is not the dominant part of the calculus for a junior faculty member...strength of colleagues in one's field, teaching loads, and support for assistant professors are most important to me. MSU's faculty is solid in my fields, the teaching loads are light, and the research support is adequate. Chicago would be more demanding on my time.
Of course I could turn them both down (if Chicago offers) and face a lottery in the econ market.
By the by, per some of our earlier conversations, I had interviews with a couple consulting firms, and declined requests from two of them to pursue things further. After talking to them it was clear it's just not what I want to do.
1158. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 2:35:50 PM
Hard to believe I started hanging out in the Fray/Mote about a month after I started my Ph.D. program.
1159. ChristinO - 1/16/2001 2:40:52 PM
Congrats Slack! Good luck to you in all your choices. Hope it comes down to getting to pick the job by the weather of the town you'll have to live in. You do realize that after years in Pasadena you and the Mrs. are going to be in sorry shape for a Midwestern winter, right?
1160. Indiana Jones - 1/16/2001 2:42:32 PM
I'd take the University of Chicago.
One of a kind school.
1161. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 2:45:06 PM
ha, ha. Well, we grew up in the midwest...hopefully it's like riding a bike. I had interviews with USC and UCSB for econ but I don't think they are going to take it further; those were my two best "weather schools." Stanford, North Carolina, UCSC, and Texas A&M are still in play in econ for non-horrible-winter places, however.
1162. CalGal - 1/16/2001 2:45:55 PM
Stanford would be cool. We could lunch.
1163. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 2:46:55 PM
Indy
Did you go to U of C?
Like I said, they haven't offered me anything yet, but it's not worth formulating a decision rule for the case where they don't.
1164. ChristinO - 1/16/2001 2:46:59 PM
Cool test if a bit simplistic. I'm an even B/C split which is fine with me. Not that I haven't had moments of A and D. I think you need to be flexible. No one style of behavior/management will work most effectively in every situation.
1165. theDiva - 1/16/2001 2:47:10 PM
Great news, Slack. Congratulations and good luck making your pick.
1166. PsychProf - 1/16/2001 2:52:00 PM
Congrats Slack...
1167. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 2:52:07 PM
thanks Diva
1168. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 2:52:20 PM
and PP
1169. ChristinO - 1/16/2001 2:52:36 PM
Slack,
State or Carolina? Same area and both are good schools. The "Triangle" is a great place to live. I went to highschool in Raleigh and hung out in Chapel Hill on many an occasion. It's one of my favorite parts of the country. You get all the seasons there but nothing too extreme.
You guys haven't been out here all that long. If you end up back in the frozen north you'll probably hate the first winter and by the second never remember having lived anywhere else.
1170. PsychProf - 1/16/2001 2:53:26 PM
Jest what we need...another yukky college prof...
1171. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 2:54:06 PM
UNC-CH
Hope you're right about winters. But I'm sure they'll be harder on the mrs. than me.
1172. Dusty - 1/16/2001 2:55:30 PM
Slackjaw
Good luck with the decision.
1173. Indiana Jones - 1/16/2001 2:56:45 PM
Slack: Regretfully, no. But I spent a lot of time off and on in Chicago until about six or seven years ago. Within the city, the University is a revered and supported institution, and people connected with it are automatically held in high esteem. I wish I had gone to graduate school there because it just seemed so dedicated and serious about academics. The ivy-covered campus in the middle of a densely urban neighborhood. Plus, I like the city and Midwesterners.
Of course UC's national reputation is right up there, too (virtually always in the top 5 in any program it offers).
Chicago weather, however, is a real consideration.
1174. Indiana Jones - 1/16/2001 2:57:46 PM
And congratulations on whichever decision you make.
1175. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 3:00:57 PM
Thanks IJ & Dusty
Agreed about the city -- I grew up in suburban Chicago and really like it there. My family and inlaws still live there which is a consideration even if it would not be the best place to start a career and make a tenure bid.
1176. theDiva - 1/16/2001 3:06:27 PM
'specially if there are going to be little Slackjaws running around. Helps to be around family, it does.
1177. PsychProf - 1/16/2001 3:09:31 PM
Slack...tried yer Slack at Hotmail e-mail address, but bounced...could you write me at ozzienelson@hotmail.com...
1178. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 3:15:40 PM
strange...mail is on the way PP
The wife has suggested that fact too Diva. Definitely something to think about. Although East Lansing is about 3 hours from our parents' homes -- her parents are almost retired so that wouldn't be too onerous.
1179. Raskolnikov - 1/16/2001 3:28:32 PM
Congrats, Slack! Have you finished your dissertation then, and I missed the announcment, or is that imminent?
1180. Slackjaw - 1/16/2001 4:46:42 PM
thanks...dissertation is about 5-6 months from completion, or at least defense (I hope).
1181. labwabbit - 1/16/2001 5:22:16 PM
PhD(s) have changed. You have time to post.
Congrats.
1182. Uzmakk - 1/16/2001 6:07:28 PM
Congrats, Slackjaw.
1183. arkymalarky - 1/16/2001 7:58:17 PM
Wow, congratulations Slack!
1184. arkymalarky - 1/16/2001 8:06:01 PM
I don't consider myself an aggressive, but I'm not very tolerant of imposing or aggressive people at work, and I don't hesitate to say what I think about things, so the test shows me aggressive. I think being a teacher for so long may have something to do with it. I don't actually interact a whole lot with adults on the job.
1185. joezan - 1/16/2001 11:03:58 PM
Slack:
Michigan State is PC mecca.
If you're outspoken, you'd better be a liberal.
1186. Slackjaw - 1/17/2001 12:57:53 AM
thanks team...I'm not too worried about the politics, Joe. I figure that if I publish 15 papers in good journals and mind my own business for 7 years, I'm set for life.
Then I can really act like a jerk.
1187. Slackjaw - 1/17/2001 1:02:05 AM
Per a conversation upthread, if I went to MSU, I would teach economics to MPA students. Yikes. Their MPA program is kind of a backwater stuck in the political science department...obviously they have yet to figure out the signaling game that is MPA program rankings.
1188. PelleNilsson - 1/17/2001 4:34:09 AM
I'm late into this, but all the same....Congratulations Slackjaw!
1189. Slackjaw - 1/17/2001 3:12:42 PM
Thanks Pell
1190. Slackjaw - 1/17/2001 3:12:50 PM
e
1191. wonkers2 - 1/18/2001 9:45:12 PM
Slackjaw, Joezan may be right. I don't know much about the current MSU economics department, but 30 years ago when automation was a hot topic, the chairman of the department made a habit of giving testimony and speeches about how automation was a destroyer of jobs and should be regulated. He was the bane of the auto industry.
1192. Indiana Jones - 1/19/2001 1:10:09 AM
An ethics question: How much do Motiers think that a job candidate's personal background unrelated to the position be considered during hiring?
For example, do you think the best qualified person should always be hired--or should the employer sometimes look at which person needs the job more?
Does it make any difference IYO whether the manager doing the hiring works in private enterprise or not when he or she makes the decision?
1193. CalGal - 1/19/2001 10:22:47 AM
or should the employer sometimes look at which person needs the job more
Bleah. That way lies madness.
1194. rubberducky - 1/19/2001 10:29:52 AM
Re: Message # 1192, Indiana Jones.
do you think the best qualified person should always be hired
undoubtedly
the only exception i can think of is the most qualified person isn't a team player, is a nut, doesn't bathe or has some other personality trait that you just don't think you can work with or others can work with.
should the employer sometimes look at which person needs the job more?
unless you are a social worker, i don't see what this has to do with it - business is business.
Does it make any difference IYO whether the manager doing the hiring works in private enterprise or not when he or she makes the decision?
i don't understand the question. if the manager wants to be a good manager, s/he should hire the best person with the best credentials available to him/her.
1195. Indiana Jones - 1/19/2001 11:04:19 AM
Cal and ducky: I take it you both are against affirmative action?
ducky: I'd include most of the things you mentioned under "most qualified" (team player, etc.) because they are relevant to the performing of the job. But things like "she's a single mom raising five kids" or "he's the first person in his family to earn a college degree" are more difficult for me to equate to job qualifications.
i don't understand the question.
Well, your social worker statement is a bit of what I'm getting at. The ethic of a corporation is primarily to make money: to increase share holder value. If you hire a less qualified person in the name of social do-gooderism, IMO you are in some sense being unethical.
But if you are a manager in an enterprise whose chief function is some sort of social responsibility--non-profit, education, government, for example--then I see the issue as muddier.
There is, of course, also the ethic of treating all applicants fairly. If you do not hire the person who is the most qualified, have you treated that person ethically and acted in good faith?
1196. rubberducky - 1/19/2001 11:15:48 AM
Re: Message # 1195, Indiana Jones.
I take it you both are against affirmative action?
very much so.
I'd include most of the things you mentioned under "most qualified" (team player, etc.) because they are relevant to the performing of the job. But things like "she's a single mom raising five kids" or "he's the first person in his family to earn a college degree" are more difficult for me to equate to job qualifications.
well, the answer there in is do not include them. unless, of course, you think this single mom or college kid would be more hungry - more willing to work extra hours (not my experience, but you know what i mean) then i could see it being a factor. otherwise, it is as relevant as the applicant's eye color or type of car driven to the interview.
The ethic of a corporation is primarily to make money: to increase share holder value. If you hire a less qualified person in the name of social do-gooderism, IMO you are in some sense being unethical.
that is my view, yes. every company, even non-profits, have goals to meet and need the best people available to do it. i don't see how this can even be debatable.
There is, of course, also the ethic of treating all applicants fairly. If you do not hire the person who is the most qualified, have you treated that person ethically and acted in good faith?
no, you haven't acted in good faith. a job is not charity or some type of gov't handout. there is no 'right' to one in the least.
1197. Indiana Jones - 1/19/2001 11:27:32 AM
ducky: I of course tend to agree with you. But I'm interested in whether anyone can argue the other side on this or make a good case for it.
This is an issue that in principle I believe one way, but in the specific I'm trying to decide whether exceptions ought to be made. And am thus open to persusasion.
1198. Indiana Jones - 1/19/2001 11:27:49 AM
As well as open to persuasion.
1199. rubberducky - 1/19/2001 11:30:44 AM
good to see you are open minded, IJ
what, if i may ask, are the specifics of the 'exception' you are contemplating?
1200. seadate - 1/19/2001 11:37:48 AM
RD,
Thanks for placing some definition on "most qualified". This term can obviously mean different things to different people.
1201. rubberducky - 1/19/2001 11:44:22 AM
seadate:
This term can obviously mean different things to different people.
of course, but, more importantly, it varies from job to job - so i didn't add much in the way of definition specifics. this is why i asked IJ for such specifics - if he is able to give them
1202. Indiana Jones - 1/19/2001 12:19:13 PM
ducky: I'll have to think about how much getting into specifics is a good idea.
1203. CalGal - 1/19/2001 12:33:37 PM
I take it you both are against affirmative action
That doesn't follow. I said that hiring someone who "needs the job most" is a crappy idea. AA is not based on need.
For example, do you think the best qualified person should always be hired--or should the employer sometimes look at which person needs the job more?
There are actually plenty of other "ors". "Or should the employer be able to hire family members first?" "Or should the employer sometimes take breast or penis size into consideration?" and so on.
"Best qualified" means whatever the manager wants it to mean. The notion that there is any way of determining an objective "best qualified" is a complete nonstarter.
I would say, rather, that there is a baseline qualification for any position. The person hired should have to meet that baseline. After that, the manager will hire the person he or she thinks can do the job best.
1204. Indiana Jones - 1/19/2001 1:09:30 PM
That doesn't follow.
Cal: I ended with a question mark (which your quotation drops).
"Best qualified" means whatever the manager wants it to mean. The notion that there is any way of determining an objective "best qualified" is a complete nonstarter.
Speaking of "that way lies madness," such is the case with arguments over whether we can agree on what words mean--especially what they mean in the general sense, common parlance, etc.
Let's just toss names in a barrel and pick new hires that way, eh?
The person hired should have to meet that baseline. After that, the manager will hire the person he or she thinks can do the job best.
If I understand you, you don't think "best-qualified" can be objectively defined, but a minimum standard can be. And above that, rather than "best-qualified" the manager should go with "who can do the job best."
Interesting...
1205. CalGal - 1/19/2001 1:14:49 PM
Indy,
Yes, your restatement is correct. That is why I don't object to affirmative action in hiring, once the baseline is met--although I personally value it more for diversity than correcting past wrongs. Please note: "not objecting to" is much weaker than "actively support", so please don't confuse the two.
1206. labwabbit - 1/19/2001 5:49:36 PM
Don't hire a cook to do welding. If there is a choice between the cook and say, a pipefitter...the pipefitter is best-qualified.
1207. labwabbit - 1/19/2001 5:52:19 PM
...unless he/she has some detrimental personality defect, and the cook does welding for a hobby.
1208. labwabbit - 1/19/2001 5:54:45 PM
...or the personality defect doesn't matter because it is dangerous work and the cook is afraid of 1/2 lunch-breaks.
1209. seadate - 1/19/2001 6:07:34 PM
or the pipefitter is fixing the plumbing of the spouse of the HR manager.
1210. labwabbit - 1/19/2001 6:35:21 PM
Well....
If he's best qualified. heh-heh.
1211. CalGal - 1/19/2001 6:41:50 PM
Indy,
And above that, rather than "best-qualified" the manager should go with "who can do the job best."
Careless me. I was focusing on the first part of your paragraph. This isn't quite right. The manager goes with "who I think will be best for this position."
1212. labwabbit - 1/19/2001 6:44:27 PM
No need to review qualifications for best position here?
1213. wonkers2 - 1/20/2001 9:50:51 AM
I would hire the applicants who would best help my organization acheive its objectives. These objectives would include contributing to the community where the organization is located. As Cal said, employees hired should meet baseline qualifications or least be capable of being trained for their jobs. From his or her application I would try to determine whether an applicant was honest and reliable, a hard and enthusiastic worker, and one inclined to cooperate and work well with fellow workers.
1214. labwabbit - 1/20/2001 2:18:04 PM
Tough job Wonk in this day and age it would appear. I find it hard to determine that which you say is necessary to 'discover' in a candidate.
I have had a success rate, quite honestly, that runs about 20-25%. Its very difficult, and exasperating at times, to predict a person's long term contribution. (Resumes should not be considered leading indicators, although resources in many cases do not allow much more.)Not just to the position initially interviewed for, but identifying skill sets for long term growth and value to the goals of the organization.
I thought, (relevant to the need advertised),I had hired God several times...
On the other hand, I had hired many whom had applied for lower-skilled positions, and wind up being key contributors/players, and whom eventually became "God-sends" so-to-speak.
1215. Indiana Jones - 1/20/2001 2:50:22 PM
Suppose you have two applicants for a job that, while important, isn't life-critical (you're not hiring a heart surgeon, for example). Say, for example, it's a reference librarian for a public library.
The first candidate is an older white librarian who has been out of work for a while raising a family and now wants to go back to work to have something to do. She has an advanced degree and several years' experience. In the interview she comports herself well, has excellent interpersonal/communication skills, and has kept up in the field by subbing part-time in your library system.
The second candidate is a young black librarian fresh out of school. She has a degree but it is inferior to the first candidate's. She has virtually no job-related work experience, but has put herself through college by working in an auto repair shop doing whatever. She comports herself okay, although she is not of course as comfortable in interviews and general communication as the first candidate. She is not familiar with your library system and will have to be trained to use the checkout equipment, etc.
Is there any justification for hiring the second candidate?
The job is a little above entry level with little prospects for advancement. It would give the second candidate, however, the work experience she needs to start advancing in her career. The salary would be a little less than what the first candidate would make if you doubled her current income from half-time work, but would be a signficant increase for the second candidate. It has great benefits, which are also more important to the second candidate because she is single whereas the first is married to a husband with a good income.
1216. Indiana Jones - 1/20/2001 2:51:55 PM
BTW, I know most of the obvious arguments for either side. I want Motiers to present something that I haven't thought of.
1217. CalGal - 1/20/2001 2:57:13 PM
Indy,
I'd hire the second candidate in a heartbeat, but for none of the reasons you give. You missed one biggie.
She has virtually no job-related work experience, but has put herself through college by working in an auto repair shop doing whatever.
That puts her resume far ahead of a volunteer worker with no employment for 20 years.
1218. labwabbit - 1/20/2001 2:59:07 PM
Is there any justification for hiring the second candidate?
Not really. But as I had explained, lower-tiered experienced people have just as much chance of being successful to, as those with (presented)exemplary qualifications have of failing to meet expectations.
Note: Of course this applies to the non-critical skill sets as mentioned.
1219. wonkers2 - 1/20/2001 3:41:40 PM
Well, the answer might depend on the age and racial mix of the clients of the library. If the library is in a white affluent suburb, the old white lady might be okay. But if the library is in a mixed or minority community and if you hope to attract children and young people to the library, the second candidate would be better, in my opinion. Companies with retail customers of all races have finally begun to see the advantages of diversity in their work force so that they can have diverse input in product design and development and in sales and advertizing, etc. And, if they are name retail companies, lawsuits and boycotts by minorities are not helpful to the bottom line.
1220. wonkers2 - 1/20/2001 3:44:47 PM
labwabbit, I agree that determining how an applicant will actually work out on the job is somewhat of a roll of the dice. Especially since many employers now refuse do do more on a reference check than verify dates of employment and job title.
1221. labwabbit - 1/20/2001 3:54:27 PM
I used to have damned near 100% success rate in successfully hiring the right person for the job when I first started out. Kept saying to myself, "This is a piece of cake, I must have the knack, and set forth applying my own little paradigmed rules. However, as the organization grew, the ability to locate the right skill set for a particular need experienced a notable down-turn. I soon began to realize that the culture of the company had a cadence, a philosophical culture that required something more than my "gut-feeling" for individual personalities. It became evident, and increasingly important that I learn to constantly identify this cadence and begin incorporating this consideration in hiring folks, particularly in the professional or technical fields. It initially was difficult to look past resumes and experience to "chance" a person who would fit in with long-term goals and present culture.
Thus, of course, my system was no longer reliable, and a more dynamic, ever-evolving method was needed. The more that was taken into consideration however, the more it seemed the wrong choices would rise to the surface.
1222. wonkers2 - 1/20/2001 3:59:35 PM
Quite a few firms these days are using temp agencies to try out new employees, even engineers and other professionals. Those that work out can be made permanent. And in cases where they don't, a call to the agency is all it takes rectify the problem.
1223. labwabbit - 1/20/2001 4:00:16 PM
Bingo...
1224. labwabbit - 1/20/2001 4:00:49 PM
Except now, I have no such resource. Not even close.
1225. Indiana Jones - 1/20/2001 4:25:55 PM
Cal: The first candidate does have recent experience. She has been working part-time as a sub within your library system.
wonkers: Do you think hiring a white woman to help white folks and a black woman to help black folks is really "diversity"?
In this situation, let's say the clientele is representative of the U.S. population--perhaps a little more diverse--but the workforce is not (i.e., the reference desk has no blacks and the library system as a whole is less than 10 percent black).
The age factor versus her clientele is one I hadn't considered, but OTOH turning down the older candidate because of her age would be discrimination.
1226. Indiana Jones - 1/20/2001 4:26:07 PM
Here are the ethical "rules" of the situation as I see them:
Ethic toward yourself: Assuming you are the person who has to live with the decision (i.e., the person you hire works directly for you or otherwise affects your job performance as well), then this ethic is the easiest to satisfy. Whatever your decision, you have acted ethically toward yourself because if you choose the candidate you think is weaker, you are doing so to make yourself feel good by doing a good deed. You may pay for this decision later, but you received a momentary reward.
Ethic toward the "customer": To satisfy this, you should hire the person who can do the better job, unless you somehow can create a rationalization that the customer is better served in the long run because of the overall unmeasurable benefit to the system by your action. That is, a few months of inferior reference desk service is worth what will accrue to "society" over time by the action you've taken. In the latter case, though, you are assuming your value system/conscience is somehow superior to "reason"--that you personally can decide what is best for other people--and, as Cal said, there lies madness. (But OTOH as Norman Bates said, we all go a little mad sometimes!)
Ethic toward the first candidate: You really have to stretch to say you are behaving ethically toward this person by hiring the second. Only if you believe the first candidate benefits when society as a whole benefits can you by any measure say you've acted ethically toward her. I doubt the first candidate would see it that way.
Ethic toward the second candidate: Regardless of your decision, I don't think this person has any grounds for complaining that you acted unethically toward her. Yet all of us want mercy sometimes, and not just "justice."
1227. CalGal - 1/20/2001 4:30:50 PM
Indy,
You misunderstand. She's a wannabe. I would never hire someone with her resume unless I had to. Anyone with sense knows that you hire the hungry (in the professional sense) before you hire the dilettante.
Also, you're nuts if you think there are any ethics in hiring, or that there should be. Where the hell does that notion come from?
1228. CalGal - 1/20/2001 4:38:25 PM
Bottom line: Your premise is incorrect. As I said, there is never a case where, given both candidates meet the baseline criteria, there is a clear and objective winner. I've just proven that--you provided a hypothetical in which you were sure that there was only one "winner", and I've shown you that it'd be a cold day in hell before I'd hire the one you think is obviously preferable.
Additionally, your whole notion of ethics towards the applicants is nonsense. They are owed nothing other than the requirement that I follow the law.
Also, you incorrectly describe the supposed self-gratification that one gives oneself in giving what you presume to be an unqualified person a job as "ethics". It may be a moral or value based joy, but it has nothing to do with ethics.
1229. Indiana Jones - 1/20/2001 4:48:23 PM
Cal: On many subjects I think our two brains just don't function the same way at all. I'm not sure it's a right/left brain thing because we do see eye-to-eye about films such as It's a Wonderful Life, but against the male/female stereotype, I think you compartmentalize even more than I do.
I've just proven that--you provided a hypothetical in which you were sure that there was only one "winner", and I've shown you that it'd be a cold day in hell before I'd hire the one you think is obviously preferable.
Even were I to accept the above, it does not prove what you say it does:
There is never a case where, given both candidates meet the baseline criteria, there is a clear and objective winner.
You cannot by dismissing one hypothetical prove "there is never a case..."
1230. CalGal - 1/20/2001 4:51:44 PM
Quite true, I should have said "demonstrated". Nonetheless, given your certainty that this was a no-brainer, it demonstrates it pretty damn well.
1231. labwabbit - 1/20/2001 4:55:06 PM
We all see ourselves as being in the control group of the great experiment that is life.
So proof in and of itself can morally exist, but can never objectively exist.
Prove it?
1232. wonkers2 - 1/20/2001 7:05:55 PM
Well, I'm not up-to-date on it, but I believe one of the yardsticks used by equal employment opportunity commissions and the courts in compliance reviews is a comparison of the percentage of minorities in the employer's workforce, for each classification and salary level, with the percentage of minorities in his labor market. If the percentage of minorities is low they look at any efforts by the employer to recruit minorities, e.g., ads in minority media, visits to primarily minority colleges, etc. The fact that no minorities have applied is not a valid defense.
1233. Indiana Jones - 1/21/2001 5:25:01 PM
As I said, there is never a case where, given both candidates meet the baseline criteria, there is a clear and objective winner.
Let's take the example of an NFL kicker because this a job that, statistically, it's pretty easy to see who the "clear and objective winner" is. What is the baseline criteria? I submit it must be somewhere below the kicking ability of the worst kicker in the league because the fact that the kicker is able to hold a job on some team somewhere is prima facie evidence that he meets the baseline criteria for an NFL kicker.
Yet it's absurd to say that one cannot clearly and objectively determine a difference between the "best" kicker in the league and the "worst" should they for some reason apply for a job with the same team. We may not be able to determine precisely between two statistically close kickers, but if one kicker is 35 out of 39 on field goal attempts and another is 22 for 32, I think it's rather silly to say the first is not better than the second, even though both meet the "baseline criteria."
In a more common example, how do you think civil service exams work?
Moreover, why I restated your point in 1204 is that I just don't get the distinction you're drawing:
Minimum standard line: |
Candidate 1 X |
Candidate 2 XX|
Candidate 3 XX|X
Candidate 4 XX|XX
1234. wonkers2 - 1/21/2001 5:32:24 PM
Librarians aren't kickers. Employees of public institutions like police, firemen and librarians should roughly reflect the same diversity as the community they serve. There is no obligation, legal or moral, that I am aware of that the "best" qualified person, however defined, is entitled to be hired. That has never been the American way or Satchel Paige might have been the greatest pitcher in the history of the major leagues.
1235. CalGal - 1/21/2001 5:45:47 PM
Yet it's absurd to say that one cannot clearly and objectively determine a difference between the "best" kicker in the league and the "worst" should they for some reason apply for a job with the same team.
I disagree, actually. Each team has different needs. Being 35 out of 39 instead of 22 out of 50 may be because of the length of the attempts, which has everything to do with the quality of the team bringing the ball into field goal position. The 22 out of 50 field goal kicker may only be put in the position of kicking goals at 40 yards or greater, which makes his average superlative, and the coach knows he has an almost 50% chance of getting three points from distances that other kickers couldn't manage (the first kicker may be 0 for 4 at 40 yards or more).
Then there's performance under pressure. One kicker may be technically perfect and get those 35 out of 39, but when the crunch is on, he folds.
I'm sure there are other parameters--I don't know football very well.
I think it's rather silly to say the first is not better than the second, even though both meet the "baseline criteria."
A better kicker? Probably--even though your example doesn't prove that. But the best person for the job? Different thing entirely. Lots of parameters there--including cost and fit.
As for an objective baseline--"objective" can be extremely minimal. For example, what is an "objective" baseline for a fieldgoal kicker? Ability to kick a certain distance? Ability to get hired by a football team? Ability to have lasted four years in Division I football? All of those are objective, in that they can be measured.
Or in your librarian example, what's baseline? The ability to read and write? Follow instructions?
So just be clear that the "baseline" I'm talking about is not some incredibly complex measurement.
1236. labwabbit - 1/22/2001 6:18:58 PM
Or in your librarian example, what's baseline? The ability to read and write? Follow instructions?
Put up and control unruly, undisciplined, self-centered, innocuous, know-it-all patrons, who insist that no one else exists within their designated space.
You know...those types that everthing around them is for their personal use.
1237. CalGal - 1/22/2001 6:22:11 PM
No, that's not baseline. There's literally no way to know in an interview whether or not someone can do that, and it's not an entry level requirement.
1238. labwabbit - 1/22/2001 6:26:37 PM
But a personality type requirement it is.
1239. CalGal - 1/22/2001 6:34:03 PM
Not at entry level. Sure, it's a nice to have, but you really won't be able to tell. It's not even like the first impression of the interviewee will give you a good feel for it, either.
Up from entry level, you can talk to references to see if it will be a good fit.
1240. labwabbit - 1/22/2001 7:02:57 PM
In review:
-Know how to identify, and be knowledgeable of, the high-level skills and ability of the position.
-"Sound" for as many as possible within each candidate.
-Determine the best combination,(best qualifications vs minimum requirement), of demonstrated skills, and (I hate this part), perceived potential.
-Remaining mindful and understanding, of what level you are getting, versus what level would be optimum for a given environment.
-Set about a program for employee development [that may optimize], for knowledge AND performance in weak areas and contigent growth/development conducive to business growth and direction.
Of course this is a primary set of rule-o-thumb standards. "Loose" by-laws, which do not, in any way, consider personal life, accustomed financial needs, or future events that may alter the "ethic" of an employee. One, that may in finality, be deemed worthy of resource investment.
In other words, anyone with the magic formula, PLEASE step forward and accept your role in changing the methods, (and the world), to how we place the right person in the right job or path in a manner more consistent than the bottle of Maalox that is required when you don't.
1241. arkymalarky - 1/22/2001 8:53:35 PM
I'm being officially rehired at my old school tonight and will probably sign a contract later this week or next week. The practice in AR schools is to send out "letters of intent" around the end of Feb or March, then get contracts out sometime between then and the end of the school year.
I haven't told anyone where I work yet, and am trying to decide whether to wait until I get the letter or to go ahead and say something. It doesn't matter for anything except consideration of them and preparing my annual staff, etc. Also, though I'm almost positive Bob will be elsewhere next year, I need to take the impact of the news on him at work into account, too. Not working with him and leaving the kids are the two downsides to leaving, but otherwise I'm anxious to finish the year and be back where I feel I belong.
I really like the kids at this school and it's not nearly as stressful or hectic as it was first semester, but I'm glad to be going back. This whole thing has been a very weird experience, and except for the financial hit I took in losing a month of pay and with a number of added expenses dealing with the job change that I wasn't expecting, it's been good to experience another district and a job transition before I retire. I think I'll appreciate my job a lot more as a result.
1242. arkymalarky - 1/22/2001 8:56:25 PM
Relating to the current discussion, my experience makes me wonder about how employers work to keep the right employees once they've figured out how to select them.
1243. mgleason - 1/22/2001 8:56:32 PM
I missed your other posts, Arky. What happened at this new school? (If you feel like a brief summary, that is.)
1244. arkymalarky - 1/22/2001 9:13:44 PM
Sure, Maria. This summer Bob got a call from his pr