The Good Life

Gardeners, Cooks, Oenophiles, DIYers, Naturalists, People and their Pets

Welcome to the first Irving-created thread in the Mote!

Another milestone!

Glendajean, feel free to delete this post when you write your intro. I presume Irv will give you the necessary instructions and URL.

2. joezan - 8/23/1999 12:02:27 AM

All my tomatoes came ripe this week. I've got 3 gallons of spaghetti sauce in the freezer. Anyone got a good salsa recipe?

3. AceofSpades - 8/22/99 12:04:34 PM

My boyfriend and I are thinking of going into the tulip business. Anyone know of a reliable distributor?

3. SpenceMirrlees - 8/23/1999 12:03:32 AM

Someday Joe, someday you'll get it right.

4. SpenceMirrlees - 8/23/1999 12:03:48 AM

Toys!

5. joezan - 8/23/1999 12:05:01 AM

Yeah, Mary. There's a coupla fellas live next door to my folks...I can hook you up...

6. joezan - 8/23/1999 12:05:39 AM

What toys?

7. SpenceMirrlees - 8/23/1999 12:06:04 AM

Well, I wouldn't want to take away from the fun your parents are having.

8. SpenceMirrlees - 8/23/1999 12:06:27 AM

Turn off your HTML tags when you are done posting!

9. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/23/1999 12:08:32 AM

I hope GJ doesn't mind that I created this thread for him. Now I'll ask him if he's willing.

10. joezan - 8/23/1999 12:10:08 AM

Spence:

That was a joke. You see, I CAUGHT the mistake right after I posted, went back and fixed it, but you obviously couldn't wait to RAG on me, and we X-posted!

11. SpenceMirrlees - 8/23/1999 12:11:33 AM

oh, I see. Sorry to be so quick on the draw.

So, let's quit spamming this thread.

12. Bubbaette - 8/23/1999 7:45:50 AM

Joezan

Fresh salsa?

Chopped tomatoes, about 3 big ripe ones

1/4 cup chopped onion (rinse after chopping

1 large clove garlic, minced

3 Tablespoons olive oil

2 tablespoons lime juice

fresh cilantro (optional)

2 jalapeno peppers, chopped

1/2 teaspoon salt

1/2 teaspoon pepper

1 teaspoon corriander seed -- crushed

Mix the above and let sit at room temp for a couple hours

I prefer not to refrigerate fresh tomatoes because I think it makes them
grainy.

An extra tomatoe salad for good measure

Chopped tomato

olive oil

vinegar

green pepper

chopped onion

chopped calamata olive

chopped onion

salt and black pepper

This is a nice picnic dish because it doesn't need to be cooled.

13. Bubbaette - 8/23/1999 7:46:59 AM

You don't need the chopped onion twice for the salad.

14. SpenceMirrlees - 8/23/1999 7:48:00 AM

both of those sounds fantastic.

15. SpenceMirrlees - 8/23/1999 7:48:28 AM

That's Southern talk for, "both of those sound fantastic."

16. Bubbaette - 8/23/1999 7:52:29 AM

Why, thank yew, Spence.

Joe

Do you want a canning recipe?

17. Judithathome - 8/23/1999 11:23:39 AM

Bubba:

You can add chunks of cuke and crumbled Feta cheese to that salad and call it Greek. 'Course, then you have to put it in the fridge...unless you eat it within a couple of hours. (The Feta is actually betta at room temp.)

18. Fraaankster - 8/23/1999 4:26:04 PM

Oh jeez,another recipe....

While we are on recipes,a couple of weeks ago I decided to watch "Dinner and a Movie" to see if I could possibly grasp how to make something I just adore -- buffalo wings.
Y'all know the show.It's either on the TBS or TNT network on Saturday nights with two young hosts who during commercial breaks, break down what it is you need to do and have to prepare their featured plate for the week. Well, I put up with their cheesy movie ( and humor btw ) thinking this plate would be relatively easy to prepare, but as it turned out,the damn thing required something like 30 ingredients and a certain pan I didn't have.
Well, it just goes to show ya, if you want good buffalo wings, let the nearest bar prepare them for you.

My gardening question ? I plan to remove about three inches of hard clay surface on the side of my yard.Would fine mulch work in amending what is left there,or would compost work better. I plan to till it.

19. joezan - 8/23/1999 8:15:01 PM

Bubb:

Many thanks for the Salsa recipe, and the bonus. I'll be trying them real soon, as I have about 40 tomatoes that need to be picked right now, and probably 3 times that many within the next 2 weeks or so. I can't give any of 'em away, because EVERYONE's tomatoes went nuts this year...

20. Thoughtful - 8/23/1999 8:57:07 PM

RE clay, we improved the soil in our garden quite a bit with mulch, but it is a temporary solution. In areas that don't get tilled regularly...like where my perennials are...we added perlite and/or vermiculite which is a more permanent solution. (I'm not sure what the difference is, but I'm sure someone here will know.)

Re tomato salad -- yum. I like to add fresh basil and fresh mozzarella cheese with olive oil, salt & freshly ground black pepper.

I also like my homemade "pizza" -- toast up an english muffin then sprinkle it with olive oil. Place a slice of mozz cheese on each, top with a slice of tomato. Sprinkle with italian seasoning and parmesan cheese. Toast in a toaster oven or under an broiler until the mozz starts to melt and the parm starts to toast. Yum!

21. Thoughtful - 8/23/1999 8:59:51 PM

Don't forget tomato juice, soup, and sauce for cooking up lots of tomatoes when you are flush with them. I've also made homemade ketchup with some success -- only I think I finally gave up, cheated and added some corn starch to thicken it -- but I did end up with a good batch (that was about 25 years ago so i doubt I'd find the recipe.)

22. Bubbaette - 8/23/1999 9:56:55 PM

Joe Zan

If you've got lots of freezer space and don't want to can, drop fresh
tomatoes into boiling water for about 30 seconds to a minute. Pull
them from the boiling water and put them into cold water. The skins
on the maters will then slip off easily. You can then quarter the tomatoes
or place them whole into zip-loc freezer bags and pop em in the freezer.
This winter when you're cooking pasta sauce, take a few of those bad
boys from the freezer and put them in your sauce and viola -- the fresh
taste of your own summer garden.

23. Fraaankster - 8/24/1999 4:00:18 AM

Thoughtful,

Re: 20

Thank you for the tip on the clay and mulch question I had. The area in question is where I plan to plant grass,so tilling is out of the question, except of course, during the initial tilling to break the clay up. A permanent solution is more what I'm in search of, so I'll look into the products you mentioned, including what others have suggested such as gypsum.The only thing growing in that patchy area now is a bit of crabgrass and some weeds. It's just too hard to get a lush carpet of grass, or anything for that matter, going in its present condition.The reason I'm leaning toward fine mulch is because it's available free at the local dump.I would prefer compost but that will cost me, albeit not much.

Thanks again!

24. Thoughtful - 8/24/1999 12:56:57 PM

Fraaaank, nothing wrong with mulch either -- and grass can be very tolerant of a lot of things including a clay soil. Unless you get a real dry summer like we are having -- then the grass turns to a brillo pad.

Interestingly, at the other house, many moons ago, my dad-in-law put in some zoysia and it's spread like crazy. That patch is the only thing green and weed free in the whole lawn. Only problem is is we are far enough north that it doesn't green up until late spring. But I say I'd rather have green grass in the summer. Besides, before it greens up, its a rather nice shade of beige -- but beautifully even and weed free. It's also really cushy to walk on.

25. theDiva - 8/24/1999 1:03:06 PM

Frankus, shame on you, relying on Dinner and a Movie for a recipe when you have a perfectly good sister right here just dying to give you unsolicited advice and recipes!

26. msgreer - 8/24/1999 1:05:33 PM

excuse the spam,

diva check yahoo email.

thoughtful get back to the healthcare thread when you have time.

again sorry for spamming.

27. theDiva - 8/24/1999 1:06:45 PM

gotcha, sweetness, and it ain't hardly spam.

28. ranheim - 8/24/1999 3:46:29 PM

My small town in rural LA bills itself as the "Cochon du Lait Capital of the World".Way back when, they meant what they said : the piglet was slaughtered when it was to come off the teat. Currently, the most popular size is 35 - 50 lbs. dressed. The pig is sread eagled on wire, front and back. It is suspended via an attachment to a motor which very slowly revolves. The fire is wood. If caught in a bind, briquets will do; but, the purists will laugh at you. The constantly turning pig is suspended over a low fire. Several times during the cooking process the pig's position is turned; tail down to head down. BTW the head can be cooked as well; most of the time currently, the head is not cooked. My father-in-law preferred very lean pork. He would get up at about 3:30 AM and would slow cook the pig until about 11 - Noon.

The pork has a wonderful taste and when cooked properly, is not greasy at all for those of you on a low fat diet. Traditionally served with sweet potatoes, cole slaw, a green bean casserole, lots of salad, and French bread. Beer is chosen more frequently than wine.

My wife and I have cooked pigs on the island of Okinawa; in the outskirts of both Moscow and Washington, D.C. Come Saturday we are going to introduce Cape Cod to this LA delicacy.

29. Uzmakk - 8/24/1999 4:49:47 PM

Damn it, Ranheim, eating succulent pork whilst drinking wine and beer, my mouth is awater. Teach those Cape Codders well.

Now onto a question--

Just yesterday I transplanted into the ground some tiny leeks that I had started in a tray. I Started the tray late and then never got around to planting the things so that what I have put into the ground is a bunch of stunted little things. Now I understand that leeks, once planted, come back year after year. How do they do this? Do they seed? Is it likely that my stunted little seedlings will be able to make it back next year, or will they be too immature to do whatever it is they do to reproduce?

30. Fraaankster - 8/24/1999 5:34:42 PM

Buffalo wings are just melted butter mixed with tabasco and then brushed on the wings and broiled.

Deev,

Hey, I go wherever I can when it comes to learning how to make use of this place called a kitchen and leave it to you to simplify things for me on the cooking front with regards to chicken wings. If I remember correctly,'Dinner and a Movie' had everything from paprika to brown sugar included in their recipe and that's when I knew it was time for me to get out and to leave that plate to someone else. I don't understand how my local tavern can spit them out so well in such little time,they are ( Here's my best Andy Griffith ) gooooooooooooo - ood !!!

...I can't help not using a gardening term in describing the new content page -- 'tilling'. It's a bit too drab and cheesy for my taste and to top it off, it doesn't fit my screen. :-(

31. theDiva - 8/24/1999 5:41:18 PM

Frankie

32. Fraaankster - 8/24/1999 5:47:46 PM

Deev,

Know what ? I think you ought to consider hosting that show,or one like it. Your recipes are a hell of a lot simpler,and who says this country has had their fill of movies with dialogue such as the following, Hey, Guido, whacha do wit da body ?

33. theDiva - 8/24/1999 5:58:07 PM

Frankie

34. Thoughtful - 8/24/1999 9:46:38 PM

If anyone else here is as much a chocoholic as I, let me recommend Bernard C. for excellent excellent chocolates. Delicious with the most terrific, sinful combinations of flavors. Yum!

35. ChristiPeters - 8/24/1999 9:55:20 PM

First you dig a large pit in the sand. (Be sure you are well away from the horses' favorite gathering spots)

Next fill with dried mesquite and burn down until they are coals.

While the mesquite is burning take a goat whether (that's castrated male) age 4 - 6 months that has been properly slaughtered, skinned, and dressed. Slather the goat inside and out with your favorite BBQ sauce, peppers, onions, and seasonings and wrap in aluminum foil.

Bury the goat in the mesquite ashes, top with sand, and tamp it down firmly. (If you are doing this in your pasture, don't worry, the horses are smart enough to not to walk on burning hot sand -- they won't bother it. Just remember what I said about staying away from their favorite spots.)

Go back 48 hours later, dig up the goat, EAT!

36. ChristiPeters - 8/24/1999 9:56:05 PM

Hey! That's as specific as that recipe gets. Honest!

37. ChristiPeters - 8/24/1999 9:59:00 PM

It's ok to eat an uncastrated baby boy goat, but make sure you get him young. Once he's gone into rut even a little bit, the meat is ruined -- unfit to eat -- seriously yucky.

No, you can't eat the doelings! They are worth too much for their milk to use for meat!

38. Fraaankster - 8/25/1999 4:22:28 AM

Deev,

I was just having fun with you in post # 32. Since you're frequently refering to your Italian butt with pride, I figured you for one who would want to host such a show ( Dinner and a Movie ) with a fresh, new Italian angle to provide it with some badly needed spunk. Accompanying your Italian wit would be a slew of obligatory mob movies and spagetti westerns, along with the complimentary bevy of Italian dishes. You can't see it working ?

39. theDiva - 8/25/1999 10:35:13 AM

Frankie

40. Fraaankster - 8/25/1999 1:10:41 PM

Deev,Deev,Deev!

I know that. I was just taking your humorous side a step farther in a parody sort of way. If anyone has fallen victim to stereotypes and generalizations it is none other than yours truly. It's unfortunate that there are still some ( usually the ignorant and uneducated ) in our society who suscribe to this line of stereotypical thinking...I was just funning you kiddo.

"Big Night' is only one movie, what's up after that ?

Gotta go kiddo, and when is this D.C. bash ?

41. ChristiPeters - 8/25/1999 1:12:02 PM

I take it no one liked my goat recipe?

You don't know what you are missing

42. theDiva - 8/25/1999 1:13:43 PM

Frankie

43. Bubbaette - 8/25/1999 1:16:22 PM

Christi

Ukrops here in Richmond doesn't carry goat.

44. theDiva - 8/25/1999 1:20:14 PM

goat?

45. ChristiPeters - 8/25/1999 2:24:40 PM

Yes, Diva, goat

See msg#35

It's yummy!

HONEST!

46. ChristiPeters - 8/25/1999 2:25:52 PM

Where did you get the goat in your freezer?

Have you ever had venison?

Goat tastes a bit like venison.

47. theDiva - 8/25/1999 2:57:49 PM

Oh, my neighbor gave it to me....they're Ghanaian, and Muslim, and they give out goat when they have a baby.

48. PsychProf - 8/25/1999 3:03:09 PM

Indeed

49. ChristiPeters - 8/25/1999 3:04:56 PM

Well, there were quite a few dairy goat farms in the area of NM where I used to live. My husband and I got a lovely Alpine Nanny. She produced lots of milk. We sold her doelings castrated and ate her bucklings.

I fed my goats the same sweet feed and alfalfa hay I fed the horses. This made for rich sweet milk. I made ice cream, cheese, and butter from the milk.

I liked our goat meat, but I haven't ever eaten any I didn't raise.

(We also raised Califonian rabbits and White Leghorn chickens)

50. PsychProf - 8/25/1999 3:09:28 PM

Goat stuff with Adam Sandler

51. ChristiPeters - 8/25/1999 10:33:53 PM

Hey, PP, that was cute. The talking goat and the next one down look like Nubians. They are known for milk with a very high butterfat content, but not for volumn. The last one on the page looked like it was an Alpine-Nubian cross. These were getting very popular when we had our goats in the early 80s. The Alpine was bread for high volumn and our Alpine certainly lived up to that. You can see how crossing a goat bred for volumn and a goat bred for richer milk would seem like a good idea. We lost the farm in 1985. So I stopped following all that. Still the web page looks like they have goats for pets -- not the way we thought of ours.

52. ChristiPeters - 8/25/1999 10:34:48 PM

Ok, I'll stop now. I'm probably the only one here interested in this.

TTFN
&:o)

53. Judithathome - 8/26/1999 11:17:07 AM

ChristiP:

You're talking CABRITO, hon...goat on the barbie.


I just have to write this and y'all can file it under "envy": yesterday was a slow day at the Antiques Mall where I logged in 4 of my 8 hours for this month so I had lots of time to wander around and find things I desired. I found (and now own) a Russian crystal limosine vase! It is shapped like a horn and has the typical cutting so common in Russian crystal, sort of hyper Star of David. It is absolutely gorgeous and I have it displayed on the etergre in front of the window in my garden room where the western sunset catches all the glass and in the late evenings, my room is filled with rainbows.

I also got a crystal perfume bottle from the 20s that has an intact tasseled sprayer (silver gray) and I poured my newest perfume into it and feel like a movie star spritzing myself. I love my job!

54. Judithathome - 8/26/1999 11:19:35 AM

The vase is shaped not shapped.

55. Thoughtful - 8/26/1999 12:59:53 PM

Judith, you'd probably be the one to ask about such things. I have some silver compact cases from my Mom-in-law. Are they worth anything? Are they collectible? I don't really want to sell them, but don't really know what to do with them either. Any suggestions?

56. Judithathome - 8/26/1999 1:15:48 PM

thoughtful:

Compact collectors are among some of the most rabid; values run the gamut from $10.00 to whatever someone is willing to pay, and that can be a LOT!

I would suggest getting a mirrored tray and displaying the compacts on it in your bedroon, along with some pretty "boudoir" stuff. Or you might find a nice little corner shelf and install it...then, you could put the compacts there.

I have a brass towel rod up high in my bathroom and I've draped an antique ecru doily, some peach colored roses, a peach staw hat, and some lacy gloves held by a glove clip on it...it's a nice little girly touch and compliments my peach towels. You could put the corner shelf in your bathroom and work out something similar. One nice thing to mix with the compacts would be older perfume bottles from the same time period.

57. ChristiPeters - 8/26/1999 1:21:34 PM

Judithathome -

If you wanted envy... it worked! Both of your acquisitions sound lovely!

58. Thoughtful - 8/26/1999 2:46:27 PM

Judith, hmmm. Sounds interesting and gives me some ideas. I have a dressing room that might be perfect for displaying some of that stuff. She also had a fold out comb with a silver case and a cigarette case too. It's amazing to think about these things which we don't use any more. Both in-laws were smokers and I've got more odd-ball ashtrays than I can handle, including one that -- if it wasn't recessed in the top -- could be used as a small side table.

Any value to little ceramic tchotchkes that say "Made in Occupied Japan"? At least they're easy to date!

You wouldn't believe the stuff I've got from my in-laws. Finally made my hubby get rid of the metal box of coins. The banks in our area were complaining about a penny shortage and the box was filled with pennies & nickels -- we weighed it at about 87 lbs. worth! I've already sold a bunch of it at a tag sale, and still have more leftover. I'm sure I must've sold something valuable for cheap -- but then I sold some cheap stuff for more than it was worth, so who cares. Mostly I just want it gone....especially the 300 mason jars.

59. Judithathome - 8/26/1999 3:10:49 PM

Thoughtful:

The receessed ashtry could be used as a side table if you balance piece of glass or an small tray on top.

Occupied Japan stuff is very lucrative. Some of it is really ugly but most of it can bring much more than garage sale prices. If you have the time and inclination, take it to a few antique malls and ask if anyone is interested. Some dealer will probably be more than happy to take it off your hands.

One of the hardest things for me to give up when I quit smoking years ago was my cigarette case: it was antique tortise shell and I had a gorgeous Calibri lighter which felt so sensual...it was faux tortise. My husband is so sweet; he knew I missed my cigarette case so he bought me a card case for my business cards. It's just as lovely and what I tote around in it is much more healthy for me.

60. Thoughtful - 8/26/1999 3:55:57 PM

JudithAH, that's very interesting. Part of the problem is the trade off -- it takes time to lug this stuff to the right people, and time is money. The two pieces I have in mind go rather well where they are -- we have some french provincial needlepoints in the bedroom (hubby's grandma said she made them, but I doubt it) and the figurines are french provincial as well which we have on top of the dresser. Now that I know they might be worth something, I'll probably break it. Seems to happen with all that kind of stuff. The cheap ugly junk never seems to get broken. Murphy's law at its best.

Thanks for the info.

61. Bubbaette - 8/26/1999 4:09:50 PM

Thoughtful

I could use the 300 mason jars in increments -- about 100 per year. But I don't suppose it would make sense to ship em.

62. Bubbaette - 8/26/1999 4:10:13 PM

Thoughtful

I could use the 300 mason jars in increments -- about 100 per year. But I don't suppose it would make sense to ship em.

63. Thoughtful - 8/26/1999 4:29:25 PM

Nu-uh.

I've used some for storage in my kitchen -- keeps the buggies out of the pasta and such, but there are still so many.

I'm wondering if there isn't some other way to use them up -- say concreting them in somewhere for a sidewalk or something.

Maybe I can have a big party with a lot of Greeks over and serve the drinks in them and then they can smash 'em all in the fireplace. Kewl!

64. PsychProf - 8/26/1999 4:37:25 PM

Now, if you'd invite a geek with the greeks...

65. Thoughtful - 8/26/1999 4:43:53 PM

pp, nice to see ya. Glad you managed to cross the mote.

66. Bubbaette - 8/27/1999 11:10:23 AM

Thoughtful

The folks to whom I give canned goods are getting better every year about returning the mason jars to me (except when they live far away, and then forget it.) I only bought 2 dozen quart jars this year. And though I'm still doing a little canning here and there, I think I can pat myself on the back this year that every single one of the more than 100 jars I canned sealed immediately. i think I've got my system down.

67. ChristiPeters - 8/27/1999 12:06:13 PM

RAIN! Beautiful rain!

Once more I have been spared tha agony of dragging my single hose and sprinkler around the yard all day Saturday.

We got RAIN

68. Judithathome - 8/27/1999 1:32:03 PM

You Dog! :-)

69. ChristiPeters - 8/27/1999 2:21:15 PM

wooof!

70. Bubbaette - 8/27/1999 2:41:22 PM

nanny nanny boo boo. we've had rain 4 days this week so far.

71. Judithathome - 8/27/1999 2:46:07 PM

You guys are cruel....not only have we had no rain, it's been like 106+ for about 2 days now. And over 100 for about 18 days straight.

Making matters worse, our well is being repaired so we've been watering very stingily.

Christi, if you watch Channels 5,8, or 11, on the weather map of the D/FW area, I live in the A of the NAS designation west of FW. Not literally, of course!

72. ChristiPeters - 8/27/1999 4:19:28 PM

Well, I'll admit I was miffed last night when all the T-storm warnings were well North of me. Still, this storm seemed to be moving steadily South at lunchtime. I'm surprised it hasn't reached you yet.

BTW, I plan on heading down to check out your antique mall next month. It's the third Thurday, right? Sept 16th?

73. Uzmakk - 8/27/1999 9:09:43 PM

Well, well, what can I say? -----oh, just a minute, I've got something written on a scrap of paper in the shop. Let me go get it.


Had eye but not a camera--

The bee-fly hovering
Before the blossom
bud, blossom, flower
A Harrier
A pink rose
and
A strange white spider, crablike,
Alaskan King
On a forward sepal

74. glendajean - 8/28/1999 9:05:04 PM

Howdy! I just got back from a week's vacation in New Mexico. This is my first return to the Mote since last Friday.

75. arkymalarky - 8/28/1999 10:14:16 PM

Hi Glenda! How was the trip? And more importantly, did your yard survive your vacation? I don't know how things are in DC, but we got a beautiful rain a couple of nights ago. Probably about two inches, though we didn't measure.

76. glendajean - 8/28/1999 10:35:04 PM

Arky -- I got home too late to check my garden out closely -- will do so in the morning.

However, I think we did get some DC rain this past week, so I am hopeful that it's hanging in there.

I only found out tonight that I'm hosting this thread. I feel so ... Martha Stewartish.

77. arkymalarky - 8/28/1999 10:45:02 PM

Haha. Martha Stewartish? Then you should have this place looking and smelling like something out of Victoria in a flash.

78. glendajean - 8/29/1999 2:45:23 PM

WWMD -- What would Martha do? Whatever she would do, it would be more complicated and more difficult than anything I am capable of performing. So this is the not-Martha thread. Instead, it is made up of a delightful cast of folk whose interests stretch from redoing a study to wildlife to gardening. It's all here. Please join me in swapping recipes and detailing our gardening adventures and updating our room re-dos. Think of this space as a civilized corner of our Mote.

79. Judithathome - 8/29/1999 5:16:47 PM

Welcome home, glendajean!

Let's plan on some tea and biscuits soon....

80. glendajean - 8/29/1999 6:12:28 PM

Judith -- I have a nice Brown Betty teapot to make it in. You provide the scones.

Thanks for the welcome. I really like the new look. Much nicer than former haunts.

81. SnowOwl - 8/29/1999 6:34:33 PM

Glendajean

Welcome back. I hope you had a wonderful holiday. Wednesday is the first day of Spring here, but we've had such an extraordinarily mild winter that many things in the garden are about 6 weeks ahead of schedule. I love this time of the year, every day there's something new to be found. Today's excitement has been seeing the first blossoms open on my miniature weeping cherry. In a day or two the whole tree will be a glorious mass of pink bloom. I can hardly wait to see it.

I spent most of the weekend pruning roses but I still have a long way to go before they're all done. It's thirsty work so I hope I can wangle an invitation to the tea party. I'll bring a NZ speciality, pikelets with jam and cream, if that will get me in the door.

82. glendajean - 8/29/1999 7:29:50 PM

Snow Owl -- thank you for the description of spring in your New Zealand garden. I am in the middle of winding down my garden in anticipation of autumn. The asters I planted last month are now blooming, I'd like to add more, and this year I will plant chrysanthemums, something I've resisted because of a personal dislike of their brilliant colors. (There are softer pastels that I can tolerate). And my continual garden building, cutting back shrubs, cleaning up debris, clearing out beds, -- this all awaits, chores I put off till cooler seasons. I am also a bit sad because there is a possibility that we're moving later this year to the American midwest, and so my garden work has a taste of letting go as well.

83. glendajean - 8/29/1999 7:30:36 PM

Oh, Snow Owl -- you are always welcome at our tea party. What are pikelets?

84. SnowOwl - 8/29/1999 8:27:21 PM

Glendajean

As far as I can tell what we call pikelets are very similar to what you call pancakes (what we call pancakes you probably call crepes). They're very popular here and are a staple of morning and afternoon teas (we take our tea breaks very seriously here), normally served buttered, jammed and topped with lashings of sweetened whipped cream.

I can imagine that you'll have a lot of regrets if you have to leave your garden. On the other hand, there's always something exciting about planning and planting a new garden. I don't know a lot about climatic differences in the States but I would think that the midwest would be very different from where you are now, so you'll also have the challenge of adapting to new conditions, and you might find yourself learning a whole host of new gardening techniques.

85. glendajean - 8/29/1999 10:31:14 PM

Pikelets sound yummy, Snow Owl. You're right about learning a new region. That will be interesting. OTH, I would like to see my garden grow into a maturity. So, some regret on my part. It's not a done deal, just getting prepared mentally in case it happens.

86. Judithathome - 8/30/1999 10:48:27 AM

Snowowl:

When we lived in Japan, a friend went to New Zealand on business and met the love of his life, Elane. She came to visit for 2 weeks and they invited us to what she called a typical Sunday Kiwi tea. We went, expecting cookies and tea...

This young lady had managed to whip up a meal in a Japanese kitchen (an unmarried GIs efficency apartment kitchen, meaning beer, fridge, and hot plate) with things she's found at the local market. We were astounded! There was roast pork, veggies, salad, and a steamed pumpkin pudding cake-like thing.

Needless to say, he married her and they are now living in New Zealand, with 3 beautiful children.

87. theDiva - 8/30/1999 11:04:26 AM

ACK! GLENDA! Here I am all ready to welcome you back (welcome back, dear) and I read that you may be moving!!!!!!

now?

90. glendajean - 8/30/1999 11:30:48 AM

My dear sweet Diva, I cannot imagine leaving this city without the opportunity to meet you. If it happens, and I won't know for another week or so, my actual leaving won't take place for another couple of months -- time for us to MAMBO!

91. theDiva - 8/30/1999 11:37:39 AM

sniffle

92. glendajean - 8/30/1999 11:44:41 AM

I want to hear from Ronski, too.

I just got back from New Mexico, a place that must be a geologist's wet dream (in terms of variety). At a friend's cabin in the wooded mountains outside of Ruidosa, I must have seen hundreds of hummingbirds. And given the August rains there, I also saw a variety of wildflowers, some which I think I can identify (asters, penstemons, sunflowers, wild roses) and many which I can only guess.

93. ChristiPeters - 8/30/1999 12:46:39 PM

I spent 14 years in New Mexico and fell in love with just about every inch of the state.

For 6 of those years I was in the USAF in a supervisory position. So I saw a lot of people come and go. There seemed to be only two reactions to NM - you either absolutely love it or absolutely hate it. I never saw any so-so reactions, just the two extremes.

94. Judithathome - 8/30/1999 2:33:03 PM

ChristiP:

I meant to answer you yesterday or the day before but YES! We are having the late night at the Antiques Mall on the 16th and you are more than welcome to come. Just ask for Judith at the front counter; I will be sure to attend and bring some Shoyu Chicken, too...

95. ChristiPeters - 8/30/1999 4:01:54 PM

JudithAH -

Yipeeeee! Lil' Darlin' and I will be there with bells on!

96. SnowOwl - 8/30/1999 4:03:13 PM

Judith

That was a nice story. Our terminology can be a bit confusing for newcomers. Tea can be morning or afternoon tea (also known as smoko) referring to mid morning or mid afternoon breaks, tea is also the common term for the evening meal.

We do have some local expressions which often catch newcomers out. The famous one is the line on an invitation Please Bring a Plate. Many people who see this for the first time wonder why on earth they're being asked to take crockery to a function. In fact, they're being asked to bring some food with them. But there are plenty of stories of newcomers turning up with an empty plate after receiving such an invitation.

97. Judithathome - 8/30/1999 4:09:17 PM

snowowl:

I'm sure it wouldn't be empty for long! :-)

98. glendajean - 8/30/1999 4:15:09 PM

Snow Owl, when I was growing up in Texas, it was quite common to bring a dish of food to someone's home whenever there was a terrible illness or death. Recently my partner and I fixed a couple of meals for a wonderful friend of ours undergoing cancer surgery (for when she came home from the hospital). She's from Texas, too, but was surprised and amazed that we had cooked the food. It's been 30 years since she lived back home and had forgotten the tradition.

99. Judithathome - 8/30/1999 5:11:05 PM

glendajean:

I thought that was a universal thing...I always take food to anyone who's had a death in the family. Lately, I've been taking big fruit baskets, tho, because usually there are tons of sweets and casseroles but for a change of pace or glutted appetites (or lost ones) everyone seems to like fruit.

100. glendajean - 8/30/1999 5:30:23 PM

Judith, when I was growing up, it was fried chicken and potato salad. Casseroles came later.

We thought the same thing, but it's not done here in DC -- as far as I can tell.

101. SnowOwl - 8/30/1999 8:03:44 PM

Glenda and Judith

I think it is a fairly universal custom, we certainly do it here when there is a death, or serious illness in a family. When my husband had major cancer surgery some years ago we were overwhelmed with kindness, I didn't have to cook anything for several weeks. It's also quite customary for people to welcome newcomers to the neighbourhood with gifts of food, which can be a great boon when you are in the process of moving in.

102. glendajean - 8/30/1999 10:36:17 PM

Snow Owl, sounds like we have all grown up with this traiditon of hospitality. I think in big cities like DC people hardly know each other and rarely think about doing such customs that they might describe as quaint.

BTW, given the description you gave of your NZ climate, I suppose you don't get black spot on your roses. I haven't sprayed my Austin English roses in over a month and its time to spray again. My new Gertrude J, btw, is finally taking off with new shoots. What a frgrant gal she is.

103. glendajean - 8/30/1999 10:37:33 PM

traidton = tradition
frgrant = fragrant

104. ranheim - 8/31/1999 8:31:45 AM

The pig was very well cooked and tasty.

The beer was cold. The wine flowed.

About 100 Cape Cod people now know what the LA speicalty of "Cochon de Lait" tastes like!

We had a great time.

In reading through the previous posts, I find pikelets mentioned. My nurse at the embassy in Moscow was a Scot. She treated our two small boys to pikelets. An instant hit!! When we returned to the USA, all the cousins, nieces, and nephews had to have Aunt Laurie's pikelets when they visited us.

If I can find my wife's recipe book I might print out that Scot's recipe to see how it compares with New Zealand's.

105. Judithathome - 8/31/1999 9:52:35 AM

I'm amazed at how many old customs have fallen by the wayside, things that seem only natural to me but bring stares when someone hears of them.

I have baked Christmas cookies for the mailman and "paperboy" since I was a young married girl of 18...just like my mother taught me. I did this throughout my first marriage and when I married my "final" husband, we moved into an apartment and that was the first year I didn't do the holiday cookies. We then moved to Japan and later to Germany so I fell out of the habit.

Moving back to Texas, our first year here, I decided to revive my little tradition. Impossible to do...there are about 3 or 4 mailpersons delivering on different days, and our paper "boy" is a group of day laborers throwing our paper from the back of a moving truck around 4am.

106. Judithathome - 8/31/1999 9:56:19 AM

So I have started a new tradition: I bake fruitbreads and muffins and take a platter up to our local post office branch so not only the carriers can enjoy but the sorters and counter people can, too.

The newspaper folk have to fend for themselves.

107. ChristiPeters - 8/31/1999 10:26:52 AM

When I was growing up, we also took food to people who have had a death in the family. This tradition was very helpful to my mother in 1997 when my father died.

We also brought food to new neighbors as a welcome to the neighborhood. After I grew up and started moving around, I didn't encounter this tradition again until I moved to Texas. When I moved into apartments - nothing. When I moved into my last house and my present house, I was greeted with casseroles and baked goods.

108. Bubbaette - 8/31/1999 4:53:24 PM

What's this about GlendaJean moving? Damnit, I haven't even gotten the pickles in the mail.

109. glendajean - 8/31/1999 4:59:39 PM

It's a real possibility, my dear Bubbaette of the Camelias.

I won't know for another week or so. But if it happens, we still have to sell our house, etc., etc.

110. Bubbaette - 8/31/1999 5:00:57 PM

Where to? Is there a good growing climate?

111. glendajean - 8/31/1999 5:03:32 PM

The midwest. Don't know much about the city. My partner and I are going out there next week to check it out. It's not a done deal, yet, but I'm ready for a decision. How are you doing? I've missed you.

112. SnowOwl - 8/31/1999 5:05:38 PM

Glendajean,

My roses get a little black spot now and again, although it's not really much of a problem. Some bushes seem more susceptible to it than others. I do spray but not very methodically and only when I think of it. That's one of the reasons I love Rugosas, they don't take any looking after at all and continue to do beautifully despite my neglect.

113. Bubbaette - 8/31/1999 5:09:49 PM

Peachy

Just got back from Rochester visiting my sister. I picked a gallon and a half of jalapenos and enough green beans for dinner tonight. I suppose it's my redneck heritage, but there are few summer dinners that I like more than steamed green beans w/ potatoes, onions, and a end bit of ham.

I was so impressed with Miz Phys's perennials -- more variety than I can name. And her indoors is filled with plants, too. I'm going to have to snitch some of her ideas, because I'm running out of places to put houseplants. I set my weeping fig out in the shade this summer and its getting so large I don't know where I'll put it this fall. But I still brought home a big ol beefsteak begonia that Phys gave me.

How was your vacation?

114. glendajean - 8/31/1999 5:23:52 PM

Wonderful. We saw a production of Carmen at Santa Fe Opera Saturday, a week ago. It's an open air theater, and probably one of the most beautiful places to see opera in the world. Santa Fe was also having its annual Indian Market that weekend where artists come from across the country and line the streets and plaza with their booths.

Then we drove into southern New Mexico to stay with my best friend from Austin, her husband, and another couple we know at her family's cabin that is set on 200 acres on hilltops next to two large forrested mountains.

This cabin is surrounded by porches. Sitting on a chair in arid 80 degree temperatures and reading a book, then looking up at the more than 20 or so hummingbirds fighting over the feeders, and then going for walks in the Lincoln National Forest, and taking naps, and cooking meals with friends. We did that till this past Saturday. It was pure heaven.

115. ChristiPeters - 8/31/1999 5:26:48 PM

ooooooh, glendjean

I am so green.

sigh

I do so miss NM

116. glendajean - 8/31/1999 5:27:03 PM

Snow Owl, I've seen wild rugosas this summer along the dunes on Cape Cod at Provincetown (by Boston in New England) and on my friend's land last week in New Mexico. Hearty, big plants. That's why I stick to Austin or also what we call Antique Roses or Old Roses. Nothing like the hardier stock. I have your identical spraying philosophy. I use Safer fungicide (as recommended by Ronski).

I hope Ronski is on vacation instead of not getting the most recent url for the Mote. It changed while I was gone, and if it weren't for the kindness of a friend, I'd be locked out of here.

117. ChristiPeters - 8/31/1999 5:27:31 PM

ummmmm... that's glendajean

118. glendajean - 8/31/1999 5:30:38 PM

ChristiPeters -- It was all beautiful, particularly the colors from the sunrises and sunsets. We did a short trip to White Sands, which I found a bit depressing (but interesting). We also drove from Capitan over to San Antionio to get back to the Interstate to return to Alberqurque Airport. That meant driving through a fairly recent (georgraphically speaking) lava flow called the Valley of Fires. The first A-bomb was detonated in the neighborhood. Very isolated and sparsly populated. On our friend's hilltop, one could not see any house, road, or other sign of human life. Very peaceful.

119. glendajean - 8/31/1999 5:33:01 PM

August seems to be a rainy season for the southwest. A few years ago, my partner and I spent a week in Big Bend and the Davis Mountains in Texas during August, and everything was in bloom. I cannot tell you how green NM was this past week. On my friend's land, there, among a jillion other wildflowers, a smallgrowing plant with yellow blossoms -- it looked quite alpine. We noticed as we walked through the meadow that we were smelling lemons. When we picked the flowers, they were full of lemon fragrance.

120. Bubbaette - 8/31/1999 5:35:41 PM

It sounds wonderful. I hope someday to make a trip out west.

121. SnowOwl - 8/31/1999 5:42:44 PM

Glendajean

Your holiday sounds tremendous, I'm envious. There's nothing better than sitting in beautiful surroundings reading a good book and enjoying time with good friends.

I often recommend rugosas to friends who aren't really into roses but would like one or two. I think they have a particular beauty of their own apart from their ease of cultivation. In fact, one of my very favourite roses of all is the rugosa Blanc Double de Coubert. She's a stunner, with the most wonderfully flimsy white petals (she is sometimes called the Muslin Rose or the Bridal Rose because of them), and a sweet fragrance. And beyond having to hack her back when she gets a bit exuberant she needs no looking after at all which is the clincher for me.

122. glendajean - 8/31/1999 5:48:36 PM

Snow Owl -- you start talking roses and I get dreamy-eyed.

123. SnowOwl - 8/31/1999 6:09:50 PM

Just slap me in the mouth with a bag of fertiliser when I start to ramble on. I should be out attempting to tame an overgrown Shropshire Lass right now, instead I'm staring at the computer screen while visions of a whole new garden dance in my head.

124. ChristiPeters - 8/31/1999 6:18:46 PM

glendajean -

sigh

I've been all those places. I lived in Tularosa for 5 years, in Alamogordo for 7 years, and in Las Cruces for 2. We made regular trips to Albuquerque. You can bet that with Cloudcroft just 16 miles from Alamogordo, we went there very often. I didn't like the OB in Alamogordo, so Lil' Darlin' was born in Ruidoso.

So I am very familiar with the areas you describe. I used to ride my motorcycle from Alamogordo up to Cloudcroft, hang a right on the road to Sunspot, follow that to where it meets back at the Hwy by Mayhill, then shoot on down home - just for the scenery and the fun of the twisty roads in the mts.

ooooooo, now I am SO homesick!

125. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 11:51:12 AM

I am so proud of myself and at the same time, can't believe I've done this "cutsey" project.

Recently, I bought this board-picture for resale and it had originally had a gold hook type thing on top as a hanger. The top of the hook broke off and the screw portion was embedded in the board. Even if I could've removed the screw part, which I can't, it would've left a hole in the board.

This picture is of a kitten standing on his back legs and he is biting a tassel hanging from a drapery tie-back. I'm not a cat person but everyone else seems to be: I sell an inordinate amount of catanalia. Anyhow, the board is trimmed on the sides with a sort of green checkerbaord pattern.

I have a bolt of wide green checked taffeta ribbon and it matched perfectly so I wired a sort of vee shaped hanger which extends above the top of the board and then laced the ribbon over that and tied a decorative knot in it. It looks just too, too cute...so cute, I am almost ill from thinking about it. But I know it will sell so...

I'll let you know when the sale goes through...not taking it to the shop til next week.

126. ChristiPeters - 9/1/1999 12:01:29 PM

Too, too cute and it has a kitten on it, huh. Sounds like just the kind of thing Lil' Darlin' loves.

127. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 12:54:40 PM

ChristiP:

Lots of Lil' Darlins...and not so Lil' ones...feel exactly the same. I have one little cat statue that has been around for a few months but most of my cat stuff just flies outta there.

128. glendajean - 9/1/1999 1:04:04 PM

Judith -- whatever happened with your caladiums?

129. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 1:09:18 PM

They've been euthanized. Compassionately.

130. theDiva - 9/1/1999 1:18:20 PM

oh God....don't remind me. The neighbor's hounds trampled my beautiful coleus last night. I hate dogs.

131. ChristiPeters - 9/1/1999 1:30:32 PM

Diva -

I'll bet you wouldn't hate Lil' Darlin's dog. Of course her dog isn't big enough to trample anything. By the time my lawn is due for it's weekly mow, you can barely see Rose's head above the grass.

Still, I'm not really sure a 'dog' that small really qualifies as a dog anyway.

132. ChristiPeters - 9/1/1999 1:33:07 PM

It's a good thing Rose doesn't bark very often. When a dog is that tiny, their tiny tiny vocal cords are incapable of anything other than a high-pitched bark (yip, really). It grates on my nerves, but as I said, she seldom barks.

When she's playing with her toys or one of the cats, her 'growl' sounds remarkably like a cat purr. Lil' Darlin' thinks it's hilarious.

133. theDiva - 9/1/1999 1:44:13 PM

Christi

I don't really hate dogs, I was just grousing. I just can't stand it when people don't take care of their animals. grumble grumble.

What kind of dog does LD have? I've forgotten.

134. ChristiPeters - 9/1/1999 2:41:20 PM

Diva - It's supposed to be a Pomeranian. Rose looks like a Pom, too, and we have her registration papers and all...

But one of Lil' Darlin's friends also has a Pom and, at 8 months, Rose is only half the size of the other Pom. She weighs about 3 3/4 pounds and stands all of 8 1/2 inches at the top of her head.

She's not the usual 'orangish' color I've seen a lot of, but is marked more like a sable German Shepherd. It's an officially listed variation in the literature we got from the Pom club after we got her papers, but I guess it's uncommon.

I have never had a dog less than 50lbs and thigh-high at maturity and this tiny thing is a bit weird to me.

135. PsychProf - 9/1/1999 2:46:17 PM

"Saw my breath" this morning on my daily excursion...where did the summer go.

136. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 2:49:28 PM

PsychProf:

To Texas.

137. glendajean - 9/1/1999 2:57:18 PM

Judith -- did you dig up the old bulbs? You can use them again next year. If you leave them in the ground, they'll rot. You may get a two or three to return, but not much.

138. theDiva - 9/1/1999 2:57:47 PM

oh man, it has been gorgeous here the last few days. We've had the quilt on the bed for the last two nights. Yummy. I hope it stays this way, our church festival is next weekend and I'm chairing a booth again. This year it's (drum roll please) tote bags and firewood!

139. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 3:01:03 PM

glendajean:

I thought I was supposed to leave then in the ground til the stems dried or something...? I didn't actually KILL them; they're in differing stages of death.

140. Bubbaette - 9/1/1999 3:02:14 PM

No No No

It's much to early to be Fall. Though we're stocked up with firewood, I just can't face Fall yet.

141. theDiva - 9/1/1999 3:06:55 PM

Bubb, are you kidding? Haven't you had enough of this lousy Virginia heat? Yuck. Thank God it cooled off. I think I'd have gone postal if I had to face another 95 degree day.

142. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 3:16:34 PM

I don't even want to bother with Fall...get me straight to Winter and hurry!

I'm so sick of getting all dressed up and looking nice, then after 2 minutes walking out to the car or into a building, I look like a wilted piece of lettuce and my clothes are sticking to me and my hair is feeling as tho it's never even been dried.

I'm sick of having to run the AC both at home and in the car. I'm bored with my summer clothes and with seeing people dressed like they are at the gym 24 hours a day. I'm sick of going out to eat and having to see some overweight slob in shorts with his hairy legs and back eating at the next table.

It is not hot as hell here in Texas....it IS hell and I am sickened unto death of it.

143. Bubbaette - 9/1/1999 3:16:51 PM

Diva

I need the light more than I need the heat. Shorter dark days make me want to hibernate.

144. ChristiPeters - 9/1/1999 3:25:26 PM

JudithAH -

YES!!!!

I have only had been able to turn the AC off at night a few times and then only because we have ceiling fans in every room. I am SO looking forward to sleeping without the hum of AC and/or fans!

Give Me Winter!!!!

145. ChristiPeters - 9/1/1999 3:26:30 PM

bubba - Get some full spectrum lightbulbs for your house. (Not too many, they are expensive. Pick a room to "sun" in over the winter and put them in there)

146. theDiva - 9/1/1999 3:33:51 PM

Bubb

Well, there is that. I hadn't thought about it.

Judith

God, yes, and you should know I have spent an entire steamy Virginia summer with no frickin' air conditioning in my car because I'm too broke to have it fixed. Bleah!

147. Judithathome - 9/1/1999 3:43:43 PM

Deev:

I had to drive from where my business is to my house only ONCE without A/C in my car and I swore I would never do it again.

Can you believe that ass Martin Lawrence...he should've just come to Texas and walked around for a few days.

148. PsychProf - 9/1/1999 3:49:49 PM

Deev...how did you do colored italics...could you e-mail me an example...

149. ChristiPeters - 9/1/1999 3:51:53 PM

PP (font color="blue")(i)type what you want(/i)(/font)

except use angle brackets instead of paranthesis

150. arkymalarky - 9/1/1999 6:27:16 PM

We're getting a little weather right now (not too bad, just some lightning and wind). It's been cooler (low nineties) the last few days, too. This summer wasn't as bad as last year, since Texas has evidently been a buffer for AR wrt heat (smirk), but I'm ready for fall.

Talking about killing plants, I left my impatiens out to die in the woods and danged if my husband didn't go get them and revive them and they look better than they have all summer. He makes me so mad.

151. Bubbaette - 9/1/1999 9:13:31 PM

HaHaHaHa!!!

152. Thoughtful - 9/1/1999 9:14:45 PM

We still need the rain, though for you hot cookies, this a.m. is was 55 outside. In a few weeks hubby and I are going to NH. We're going to stay in an old victorian mansion and head to the top of Mt. Washington. Someone told me they did it when it was 90 on the ground and still froze when they hit the top of the mountain -- fastest wind speed on earth was recorded up there. Kewl!

153. Bubbaette - 9/1/1999 9:20:14 PM

Thoughtful

It was in the low 60's up in Rochester when I went to see Phys this past weekend. I don't think this is natural and am not at all ready for the summer to end. Still, I do love sleeping with the windows open.

154. Thoughtful - 9/1/1999 9:23:41 PM

bbbtt, I'm with you on missing the light, but the coolness is nice. I already hate having to exercise in the dark in the a.m. and notice how quickly it gets dark at night. I don't like it. Blame it on Stephen King -- never had much problem over the shortening of the days until I read Salem's Lot.

155. cmboyce - 9/2/1999 10:28:40 AM

bubbaette,

I too was in the Rochester neighborhood last weekend and was delighted by the weather. I love the chillyish days in August that give a hint of autumn. In fact, in any season, those first outliers of the next are wonderful (though I grant you that a bone-chiller in November ranks below a balmy February afternoon by a lot!)

156. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 10:41:29 AM

So far I have noticed the following seasons in Texas:

Spring

Summer

Hell's Oven

Fall

I am really looking forward to Fall (Oct - Feb)

157. Thoughtful - 9/2/1999 12:16:47 PM

We had business acquaintances (hubby's) from Houston area up once and we took them out to dinner to a restaurant where we ate outdoors. They were so surprised as they said the weather and the bugs there were usually too bad to eat outside...ever.

158. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 12:19:35 PM

I haven't been to Houston other than when passing through the airport. I will probably visit eventually.

Currently, I am just 15 minutes south of the Texas-OK border and it's still too hot for me. I'd probably never go outside if I was in Houston.

159. SpenceMirrlees - 9/2/1999 12:21:37 PM

Seasons in California:

Mudslide

Earthquake

Fire

160. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 1:57:22 PM

Well, if those are the choices, I'm glad I have avoided California. Apparently it really is the plague of my first impressions of it. (visited once, never went back)

I'll take The Enchanted Land north of Albuquerque anyday.

161. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 1:59:58 PM

Don't get me wrong, Texas isn't bad when you're not in the Hell's Oven season.

Hell's Oven also has the advantage that it is much shorter than the Frozen North (knee-deep in snow and frostbite in 10 minutes) season I hated growing up in Michigan.

162. PsychProf - 9/2/1999 2:21:49 PM

Texas State Flag

163. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 2:22:56 PM

chuckle

164. Judithathome - 9/2/1999 2:59:06 PM

PP:

I'm assuming those are skulls?

165. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 2:59:41 PM

Does anyone remember way way back when in TPWWDMA when I posted a comment/question about the lizards I found living in the garage when I first moved into my house?

Well, anyway I left them alone. They have multiplied and we occaisionally see tiny baby lizards in the house. If we get to them before the cats do, we gently put them in the garage.

Lil' Darlin' was stressing over the mean ole puddy Tats picking on the poor baby lizards and wanted to keep their latest victim who was intact other than missing it's tail. So we put it in a shoebox with hoels punced in the lid and carted the thing down to the local pet shop to see if anyone knew what it is.

It is a "house gecko". Turns out they are popular as pets, but the store gets most of it's business in the critters from people who come in and "buy half a dozen or so to turn loose in their house or business. They're clean, don't spread or carry any nasty diseases and do a better job of getting rid of all the bugs in your house than any pesticide made."

continued...

166. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 3:07:19 PM

Lil' Darlin' wanted the lizard to be donated to her science class as a pet, but the pet store owner didn't think it would live. It's too small to eat even the tiniest crickets which they sell as food for the geckos.

So we bought a bigger one from the store, plus a habitat for it, a smaller habitat for the baby gecko, and a mess of tiny crickets. Lil' Darlin' still wants to keep the one we rescued, but didn't want to take it to class if it was likely to die. "It would make the kids too sad, Mom" she said.

Well, it's been a week and both the gecko at school and the baby gecko at home are doing fine. Baby has finished all the tiny beetles that some boys from LD's class caught for it. So, on the advice of the local lizard expert, we will go down to Plano this weekend for "pinhead crickets" for it.

The live bugs in the habitat give me the willys (I hate bugs), but the gecko is kinda cute. At least now I know why I haven;t seen one single solitary bug in my house and that it was the right decision to leave the geckos in residence when we moved in. As long as they keep on eating the bugs, they are welcome housemates, indeed,

167. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 3:12:00 PM

Ya know, PP, I chuckled at your pic, but it is kinda pretty here in NE Texas - slightly rolling, green countryside with lots of trees. It's just so darn HOT this time of year.

168. Judithathome - 9/2/1999 3:12:24 PM

Christi:

When we lived in Japan, we had geckos galore and were thrilled to have them. The Oriental ones chirp and once, I was watching a Teddy Pendergast concert (not much on Japanese TV) and the geckos started to chirp away as backup! They loved Teddy!

169. ChristiPeters - 9/2/1999 3:40:38 PM

JudithAH - That sounds like a neat experience.

I've only seen the big gecko I noticed while moving in once or twice. Either it has enough sense to stay out and avoid the cats or it is better at getting away from them. We only see the babies once in awhile - mostly when the cats are after one. If we see them going after one, we stop them. I know this does nothing about when we are gone or asleep, but I figure a bit of natural selection isn't all bad.

170. Thoughtful - 9/2/1999 5:20:54 PM

We had a few lizards living in our room in St. Johns and, though they had bug spray in the room, we never needed it. Others we talked to who didn't have lizards had bugs. I kinda like 'em and am thankful that they don't make noise!

171. glendajean - 9/6/1999 6:19:00 PM

It's almost time to start fall garden work, and that will be made much easier by the recent rains courtesy of Hurricane Dennis. The soil is thoroughly soaked. (Now if I can only get rid of those pesky mosquitos).

172. Bubbaette - 9/7/1999 8:31:12 AM

Glendajean

Looks like we're up to the 100 year flood plain in my neighborhood. My lawn is sprouting mushrooms.

And speaking of fall gardening, the kale and mustard I planted when I pulled up my Roma tomatoes are up and growing like crazy. I really need to get out and thin it, if the ground weren't so muddy.

173. Bubbaette - 9/7/1999 8:33:58 AM

And the mosquitos have been hideous this summer -- the ponds in Bryan park, about 2 blocks away have grown stagnant because the water level is not high enough to push any water over the dam. It's gotten so that when I work in the garden, I douse with Cutter, carry a burning mosquito coil, and still come in with 10 or 12 whelts. Anyone have an idea what to do about the bloodsuckers?

174. ChristiPeters - 9/7/1999 9:31:09 AM

?move?

(there aren't any mosquitos in the desert)

175. ChristiPeters - 9/7/1999 9:38:34 AM

Well, the house gecko that we bought at the pet store for Lil' Darlin's class expired of unknown causes sometime last night. this is the one we bought when the store 'lizard expert' said the wild one wouldn't live more than a day or two. LD was the first kid to take "Chateau" home over the weekend.

The wild baby gecko, otoh, is still going strong. I will be heading to Plano today to buy it some pinhead crickets to eat as it has devoured all the little bugs the kids in LD's class caught for it. I had planned to go get the crickets over the weekend, but for once, I actually called first. They are all out and expect a new shipment today. So I'll call again to make sure they really did get them in and LD and I will head down there after work tonight.

You know, the geckos are kinda cute, but having to get live bugs for them to eat really creeps me out.

shudder

176. glendajean - 9/7/1999 10:01:27 AM

Christi -- move to Houston. There is no shortage of bugs there.

Bubbaette -- I seemed resigned to let the mosquitos chew on me, but it certainly makes garden chores tiresome. Yesterday, I cut back my liatris (gayfeather), my purple coneflowers (maybe I'll get a little rebloom before fall ends), pulled up all my larkspur, and did a little weeding. I still need to divide my shasta daisies and move around their seedlings.

The DC government is re-paving the road in front of our house, which means everything is covered in concrete dust. The rains are taking care of some of that, too.

177. glendajean - 9/7/1999 10:04:30 AM

Hey, my object was moved without notification. Bless you, Alistair.

178. Bubbaette - 9/7/1999 10:05:36 AM

Glendajean

The only option that I've found that really seems to help is to wear longhandled shirts and pants and a straw hat sprayed with bug repellant into the garden. That limits the bites to my hands and neck

179. Bubbaette - 9/7/1999 10:06:21 AM

Mine too, and I didn't even notice it.

180. cmboyce - 9/7/1999 10:08:52 AM

Speaking of geckos, an enthusiasm for them as apartment dwellers swept NYC a few years ago, at least according to the media and the media-inspired scuttlebutt. The common wisdom had it that they did a great job on the cockroaches, but that they had a bad habit of dying behind the refrigerator and stinking the place up. (Probably died of starvation after cleaning out the roaches.)

181. ChristiPeters - 9/7/1999 10:38:25 AM

cmboyce -

Well, apparently the wild geckos living in my house have a steady supply of bugs. None of them have died inside to stink up the place.

glendajean -

Move to Houston! Are you insane? There's no air in the air there - it's all water! &:o) The humidity and bug population here are just about the max I can stand.

I am forever grateful to my resident geckos that I never have to see a bug in my house. Now If I can only convince Lil' Darlin' that Baby would be happier turned loose again to join its wild family, I won't have to deal with seeing any bugs again. Not only do I find it eeeuuuuwwww to have to put the bugs in Baby's habitat, but I am really offended by the idea of buying bugs! They are very cheap (0.98/dozen) but it's the principle of the thing!

182. theDiva - 9/7/1999 10:40:18 AM

Hey Bubb

We had some of your pasta sauce on Sunday night - molto bene! Are you sure you aren't Italian? How did you make it?

183. Bubbaette - 9/7/1999 10:54:03 AM

Deev

With mostly roma Tomatoes

First take fresh tomatos and drop them in boiling water for about 30 seconds and then put in cold water. The skins slip right off. Run the tomatoes through the food processor (we're talking about 25 cups at a time) Chop onion, green pepper and mince garlic. Sautee in olive oil until onions are translucent. Add chopped tomats, a little sugar, bay leaves, oregano, rosemary, crushed red pepper and fresh basil leaves. Add canned tomato paste till you get the desired thickness. Bring to a boil, put into sterilized jars, seal, and process in boiling water bath for 30 minutes.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Everything came out of our garden except the garlic, sugar, most of the spices, and the tomato paste.

184. theDiva - 9/7/1999 10:54:56 AM

Well, it was fabulous. Gracie ate two bowls.

185. Bubbaette - 9/7/1999 11:00:10 AM

Deev

You can also try mixing a small can of tomato paste in with the quart of sauce and it makes good pizza sauce.

186. theDiva - 9/7/1999 11:05:50 AM

I was thinking about putting it on pizza. That is, if there's any left. Sweetie is planning to make pasta for dinner tonight.

187. ChristiPeters - 9/7/1999 11:48:11 AM

bubbaette -

You recipe sounds yummy. I have saved it for next year. Lil' Darlin' wants to have our very first vegetable garden and tomatoes were at the top of her list of things to grow.

188. Bubbaette - 9/7/1999 11:51:02 AM

Christi

Some folks say that you have to cook a marinara sauce all day to make it really good. I prefer to cook the sauces just enough to bring out the flavors of the spices. Oh, BTW, add the basil very last, because it doesn't stand up well to long cooking.

189. theDiva - 9/7/1999 11:57:20 AM

That's correct, Bubb. Fresh as possible. Now a good Bolognese sauce, OTOH, ought to take all day. But that's cold weather food.

190. SnowOwl - 9/7/1999 4:48:06 PM

I planted tomato seeds yesterday. The area I live in is marginal for growing outdoor tomatoes, but a friend sent me seeds of the Siberian variety last year, which is apparently well suited to cooler areas and those with short growing seasons. They did wonderfully well for me, so I saved some seeds from the crop and that's what I'm attempting to start this year. I can hardly wait to be eating fresh tomatoes again. The ones available in the shops right now are horrendously expensive, and taste like cardboard so I don't bother with them.

191. alistairconnor - 9/8/1999 7:24:12 AM

Hey Snow, perhaps I'll ask you for some seeds if they work for you. We are going back to France in April, and our climate there is very Central Otago, we've pretty well given up on tomatoes as they often rot on the vine when the first frosts arrive.

192. theDiva - 9/8/1999 9:59:10 AM

This is a kid-related issue, and I thought this would be the best place to post it.

I'd like opinions, please, on the text of the following note (unedited except for names) which Gracie brought home from school yesterday.


Dear 7th grade parents,

Every year seventh and eighth grade students sell sodas to the students on pizza day (which is every Wednesday). The grades switch off every other week. The money raised with this helps pay for the trip to PineTree and for Graduation (seventh grade does the breakfast and graduation for the eighth grde). Attached you will find a schedule for the days that the seventh grade is responsible for. On this day where you find your name you are to send in (3) 12 packs (36 cans) of soda. PLEASE SEND IN BRAND NAMES ONLY. Thank you for your cooperation.

Mary Gray

????????????

193. glendajean - 9/8/1999 10:10:49 AM

Diva -- a bit adrift from the role of educating children. Sounds a bit out of control, but my elementary school years were in the early 60s so I'm a bit out of the loop about what is normal practice. We had a school carnival where parents made cakes for the cake walk.

194. theDiva - 9/8/1999 10:15:16 AM

What gets me is:

1. She doesn't identify herself beyond her name (the school office says she's a PTO officer, which explains A LOT.)
2. She gives no phone number
3. The tone of the letter is, at best, abrupt and officious.
4. The only time she uses the word 'please' is in uppercase letters and dictating what is to be purchased.

ARGH.

195. glendajean - 9/8/1999 10:43:01 AM

Well, don't buy the Wal-Mart knock-off colas are you will be in BIG TROUBLE.

196. theDiva - 9/8/1999 10:44:40 AM

I feel like going to the Dollar Store and buying the tackiest brand I can find.

These PTO dames drive me up the wall.

197. glendajean - 9/8/1999 10:55:13 AM

Since we're getting signs that the Mote may be ready soon to open our doors, I thought we should have a discussion about what we want in this thread.

I see this thread as covering the domestic side of life. My own personal bent is toward gardening, but others bring different passions and experiences --and I find the open-ended conversations to be interesting.

Would it help to organize thoughts if we dedicated one day a week to a specific topic, or is that being too organized? What kinds of links and articles would you like to see attached to the thread? I'd like to do a few comments on designing a garden for your yard. Does anybody else have ideas?

Since we've never had an incident that I can remember where someone abused the tone of this thread (or its ancestor in the defunct old place), I don't think its necessary to set out ground rules about conduct. If it became necessary we probably should get another host because my own civility level is probably too high to be in charge of the delete button -- I'd probably err on wiping out the first sign of it when others might not think the offender was being rude or misusing the thread.

I think we should take turns hosting. Why shouldn't one week be Bubbaette on canning, camelias and tomotoes? Or Thoughtful on how to organize a room re-do? Or Judith with tips on shopping at antique stores or fine dining adventures. Ronski tantalizes us with little observations of wildlife and flowers -- he'd be a great guide.

So let me hear from you.

198. glendajean - 9/8/1999 11:03:43 AM

And Diva can teach us about modern parenting.

199. theDiva - 9/8/1999 11:08:53 AM

ixnay on that last suggestion, Glenda, I'm making this up as I go along.

I like your idea of a weekly feature/topic co-hosted by one in the know. You really ought to be the main host, though.

200. glendajean - 9/8/1999 11:28:28 AM

About the only feature that I really liked in the old place were the diaries. Diva, maybe you or ChristiPeters could do a a short diary entry each day related to being a parent. Others could give a week on a different topic.

201. Bubbaette - 9/8/1999 11:29:49 AM

I think you should be the main host too, GJ.

I still haven't found anyone who can tell me what these golf-ball sized fruits are on my camilias. The past two falls, I could tell when the buds had set, but they obviously looked like dormant buds. If they are actually camilia seeds, I'd love to distribute them far and wide. Regardless of what they are, I wonder if I should thin them, since they're really weighing down the branches.

202. theDiva - 9/8/1999 11:30:00 AM

hmmmm.....interesting. Maybe I could.

203. glendajean - 9/8/1999 11:38:00 AM

I scoffed at 109109/Hoke's fear of the technical side of posting, but I know zilch about linking, html, etc.

Still, I want, content-wise, to make this an interesting place. I'd enjoy reading Bubbaette creating her world and thoughts on tomatoes or whatever else she wants to write about, whether its nosey neighbors or making salsa. We definitely need a recipe section, too.

204. cmboyce - 9/8/1999 11:40:48 AM

PTO = Parent Training Operative?

205. theDiva - 9/8/1999 11:45:26 AM

Parents Take Over.

This is generally where bored suburban housewives get to live out their fantasies of autocratic control.

Not all PTO members are like that, but the ones who are....watch out.

206. Thoughtful - 9/8/1999 1:01:56 PM

glendaj, I vote to keep you as host as well. As you know, my ability to host a thread for a week would be very chancey due to my schedule. Beside, I like the open-ended flavor of this thread where topics come and go as people want to discuss them.

I view this thread as like a House & Garden magazine and think of it as anything you might find there could be discussed here. That includes interior design, exterior landscaping and gardening, cooking, recipes, pets, and entertaining. Even light discussions of travel and restaurants (as opposed to the heavy-duty discussions in the old travel thread) I would see as appropriate.

I would be a little nervous about parenting in that, depending on topic, it could get hot and heavy vs. this thread which has always been a "haven".

207. glendajean - 9/8/1999 1:12:05 PM

thoughtful -- I didn't think about parenting as generating that kind of conversation, but you have a good point. Still, Diva writing a diary about her and her kid for a week, or ChristiPeter or whoever, could be interesting and enertaining. Given how much work and thought you put into your study re-do, that would have been a good subject, too.

I still like the idea of using the diary format from time to time. Alistair said we could do articles and that might be a good way to cover an interesting home project.

And I agree that we should try and keep this as a haven from the colder and crueler threads.

208. Thoughtful - 9/8/1999 1:23:49 PM

Glendaj, oh yes, those kinds of parenting stories as have been posted here in the past would be fine.... just not contentious issues. (At work I've seen people get in such a huff with each other over silly things like what is the appropriate bed time for a 2 year old!) I don't see why we can't have the occasional "diary" approach mixed in with our usual style of comments or Q&A. It might help keep the thread moving through its quieter spells.

209. glendajean - 9/8/1999 1:44:37 PM

My babies are my 3 cats, age eleven, two and two (give or take 6 months). I'd hate to get in a fight over whether there needs to be a separate litter box for each.

Any more suggestions for the threads? Any volunteers to do a diary? Make your voice known.

210. SnowOwl - 9/8/1999 3:59:05 PM

Alistair,

I'd be delighted to save you some seeds. If you're not leaving until April I'll have a fresh supply ready and I'll get some to you before you go.

Glendajean,

The thread suggestions so far all sound good to me. I very much enjoyed reading this thread in the old place and so far it is shaping up well in its new home.

211. glendajean - 9/8/1999 4:19:26 PM

Snow Owl -- I'd love a report from you about gardening in New Zealand (for example, your comments about growing tomatoes). I hope you will be participating with a diary, too.

212. Thoughtful - 9/8/1999 4:35:07 PM

Other thoughts: I've posted some websites that I thought would be of interest, and would love to know of any others that people have enjoyed. Also another topic (which I'm sure Judita.h. would contribute to) would be flea market/antique store finds. I love stories like that. Also the fauna with the flora (bird feeders, luna moth sitings, etc.) are great.

213. Thoughtful - 9/8/1999 9:53:13 PM

Latest project, or a beginning of one -- I can't draw for beans. I always had the sloppiest coloring book and my art teachers would make comments like, "She put a lot of effort into that collage." I think that's why my marbelizing looks ok -- I can't repeat a straight line to save my life. Well, I got intrigued with a painting style called "One Step" with very simple brush strokes, where you double load the brush e.g. red on one side and white on the other, which helps create wonderful flowers and leaves. My roses were getting pretty good and the leaves are very simple. My pansy needs a lot more work. I also got the very long, thin bristle brush to do tendrils with. I need some more practice to make sure they are smooth and even, but all in all it was fun and very easy to do. Now I just gotta find something to paint.

Oh, Hubby....

214. glendajean - 9/9/1999 6:44:20 AM

Dear hearts, I'm off on another short trip. Please talk amongst yourselves --and all best!

215. Bubbaette - 9/9/1999 8:35:19 AM

For those of you who are growing tomatoes in colder climates -- some suggestions.

Start your tomatoes indoors under florescent lights to get a head start on the growing season.

When you plant the tomats, lay then in a trench with a good bit of the stem buried -- the buried section will quickly root thus increasing the plants ability to take up water and nutrients.

Put black plastic between the rows and use black gardeners cloth around your tomato plants. The black collects heat, while the gardener's cloth allows moisture through, thus speeding up the season just a bit.

216. ChristiPeters - 9/9/1999 10:38:49 AM

All the suggestions mentioned sound good to me!

217. Thoughtful - 9/9/1999 12:57:30 PM

Bbbtt, this year was the first year I planted tomatoes in the concrete flower box by the porch -- it runs the length of the porch and has a southern exposure. We also have a decent overhang on the porch so the good news is it will help protect them from early frost. The bad news is I have to water them as it never gets any rain. We had a real hot spell when the flowers were really blooming and I read that temperatures over 90 actually change the chemical make up of the pollen so the flowers can't be pollinated -- I think it was in the NY Times. Anyway, now the darn things are loaded with tomatoes, but they're still green. It's a race between the red and the frost. Don't know how it'll turn out.

218. ChristiPeters - 9/9/1999 1:02:56 PM

Well, keep us posted!

BTW, the wild baby gecko that we rescued from the cat is still going strong. You know, the one the pet store guy said would never live past a day or two? We went to a pet store in Plano and got it some 'pinhead crickets' to eat. It is fat and sassy and it's tail is growing back, too. I'm not sure if we will donate it to LD's science class or just turn it loose when it is bigger. I vote for turning it loose, but LD may want to keep it in her class.

219. SnowOwl - 9/9/1999 4:09:51 PM

Thoughtful,

If your tomatoes don't ripen in time there are a number of things you can do. You can pick them and store them in a box with an apple (the apple releases an enzyme which speeds the ripening process), or you can simply pull up the whole plant and hang it upside down somewhere inside, in a bsement for example. I tried that method for the first time last summer and had great success. All of the remaining green tomatoes ripened, even the very small ones.

220. Bubbaette - 9/9/1999 10:21:21 PM

You can also put the tomatoes between two sheets of newspapers to ripen. The paper (or the box in Snowowl's example) allows air in, but traps the pheremones that cause ripening.

I've also put tomatoes on the windowsill to ripen after the first frost came, but the real green ones get grainy after a while.

Part of the slow ripening may be attibuted to the overhang you mentioned. Tomatoes do best in full sunlight all day long.

221. Thoughtful - 9/10/1999 10:17:11 PM

Thanks for all the great suggestions. I'm all for keeping tomatoes as long as possible. I've heard of some, but not hanging the plant upside down. Cool.

The overhang is not wide enough to block the sun -- just the rain. I really think they suffered from that hot spell too early on. Now I remember why I garden so little -- so much effort, yet so many things over which you have no control can duck things up. Doesn't mesh with my "control-freak" personality.

222. KULIGINtheHOOLIGAN - 9/11/1999 11:56:50 AM

Some time I'd like to talk about plants in Namibia and the various ones I recently put in my yard, if anybody is interested.

223. glendajean - 9/12/1999 10:52:19 PM

Great tomato discussion.

Kuligan -- are you Vic? Please tell us about your garden and/or plants in Africa.

224. God - 9/12/1999 10:56:17 PM

Yes, Vic. And tell us about the fauna that munches on them, too.

225. Bubbaette - 9/13/1999 7:23:38 AM

God

Do you know anything about camilias?

226. KuligintheHooligan - 9/13/1999 9:02:56 AM

I will be most happy to talk about my yard/garden here in Namibia, but give me a few days. The new school term starts tomorrow and, horror of horrors, I found out late last night that I have lost or misplaced the disk with my class notes for one of my courses! Unfortunately, I think I forgot it back in the States.

227. KuligintheHooligan - 9/13/1999 9:04:42 AM

Oh, sorry glendajean, yes, this is Vic, and greetings to you!

228. God - 9/13/1999 11:07:08 AM

Bubba

I know more about Camillas. Camilla Klingstroms, to be exact.

229. Bubbaette - 9/13/1999 11:17:30 AM

God

Well dagnabbit! I'm trying to find out whether these golf-ball-sized fruits on two of my camilia bushes can be planted to grow new camilias, and if so, how to plant.

I mean, if God can't tell me the answer, the situation is helpless.

230. God - 9/13/1999 11:21:20 AM

Oh, is that all? Remove the fruits from the bush. Dig a hole. Put the fruits in the hole. Refill the hole. Pour water on the earth where the hole used to be.

231. Bubbaette - 9/13/1999 11:22:09 AM

How deep a hole?

232. God - 9/13/1999 11:24:52 AM

7 inches deep.

233. Mr.Right-O - 9/13/1999 11:29:58 AM

We have a bushel of corn that is going "dry" on us. How can we save it?

Put it in a bucket of water?

235. Mr.Right-O - 9/13/1999 11:38:16 AM

That was a serious question. What type of answer is that? It's hard to eat a bushel of corn, especially when we should finished another.

236. Bubbaette - 9/13/1999 11:54:51 AM

Mr. Right O

If it's sweet corn, you can parboil it for about a minute and a half, cut it off the cob and spoon into pint or quart freezer bags and put it in your freezer. It should stay good for at least another 6 months or so.

237. glendajean - 9/13/1999 1:17:34 PM

It's almost official. I and my beloved are moving to Indianapolis, Indiana.

238. Bubbaette - 9/13/1999 1:18:44 PM

So what did you think of the great city of Indianapolis?

239. glendajean - 9/13/1999 1:19:36 PM

So I will soon be learning midwestern gardening conditions.

A jillion years ago, I went to grad school in eastern Iowa. My next doors neighbors were from Arkansas. We decided to grow a shared vegetable garden. Being southerners, we decided to grow okra, among other veggies. Our okra plant was shorter than a foot and we got one three inch okra pod on it.

240. KuligintheHooligan - 9/13/1999 1:25:21 PM

Ridiculous trivia about Indianapolis. It is the largest city in the USA not on a navigable (sp?) river.

241. glendajean - 9/13/1999 1:25:32 PM

Host note: Post 234 was deleted. God, you need to clean up your act in this thread.

242. glendajean - 9/13/1999 1:29:27 PM

Vic -- I heard that -- although Dallas and Fort Worth and San Antonio are all on non-navigable rivers and I think they're larger.

Funny thing about American cities. They all have terrible inferiority complexes. I heard more lists and rankings by people trying to impress me on what a great city Indianapolis was. They didn't have to do that, and it's not peculiar to them. Their graveyard is the third largest in the U.S.

Bubbaette -- very sports oriented, very clean and organized, very Republican, polite. Best thing for me is that I'll be able to afford a larger yard and have a vegetable garden in addition to my perennial flowers, herbs and roses. Too cold for rosemary, or so a local gardener told me.

243. KuligintheHooligan - 9/13/1999 1:31:52 PM

glendajean, when I heard that trivia about Indy it was several years ago, but even then cities like Dallas had to be bigger. I wonder what's up with that?!

Anyway, I've spent a fair amount of time in Indy and I liked the city. Southern Indiana is a nice part of the state to visit too.

244. Bubbaette - 9/13/1999 1:36:48 PM

Glenda

Could be that all the folks from Indianapolis go back there after death to be buried. My grandmother lived the last three years in Virginia, but went back to Liberty Mills Indiana to be buried.

245. glendajean - 9/13/1999 1:37:17 PM

I like my cities a bit more of an edge and have no interest in sports, and don't vote Republican, so it will take some getting used to. Still, I think it's odd that people who obviously like where they are living feel defensive about the place.

OTH, no road rage. And for half what my house in DC costs, I'll get a big yard to garden in.

246. Bubbaette - 9/13/1999 1:39:31 PM

My grandmother gardened and grew just about everything in her little hometown of Bourbon Indiana. She had some wonderful raspberry canes and all varieties of flowers.

247. glendajean - 9/13/1999 1:40:08 PM

I read that $2700 will get you a double crypt in the country's third largest graveyard.

They've had a worst drought than we have. I thought I was back in Central Texas. All the grass was dead. There's a wonderful new botanical garden developed by the zoo, planted this spring. The plants were incredibly heat stressed.

No hills in Indianapolis. Pretty flat.

248. glendajean - 9/13/1999 1:42:18 PM

In Iowa City, every home had a rhubarb plant. They even made rhubarb wine, not to mention cobbler and pie. I started hearing rhubarb recipes while I was there. Must be a midwestern thing.

249. Bubbaette - 9/13/1999 1:48:21 PM

I don't understand why people think that rhubarb is edible.

As often as Indiana suffers from drought, it's a wonder the state has any farmers at all. But I *told* you it's a good place to ride a bicycle. The movie "Breaking Away" was filmed in Indiana -- around Bloomington, I think. Highschool basketball is also real big in Indiana.

250. SnowOwl - 9/13/1999 4:24:03 PM

I love rhubarb, and it does make reasonable wine. One of the most delicious soups I've ever tasted was a combination of rhubarb and spinach. It sounded so strange I had to try it, just to see what the combination was like. It turned out to be incredibly delicious, and I've kicked myself ever since that I didn't ask the chef for the recipe.

It's a glorious Spring morning here, with the proverbial clear blue skies and golden sunshine. Almost all of the Spring bulbs are flowering now and those that aren't are well on the way. From where I'm sitting I look across the street and see a fabulous magnolia in full bloom, with huge deep pink flowers outlined against the blue of the sky. It's a wonderful sight and one I look forward to all through winter.

According to our weather forecasters La Nina is bringing us an unusually dry and warm Spring. This isn't good news. We had a very dry summer and much less rain than we normally get in winter. If their forecasts are right we are likely to get serious droughts during
summer.

251. KurtMondaugen - 9/13/1999 4:25:03 PM

Made some pretty fab rhubarb sorbet last week, actually. Better than it might sound, but not as good as the apricot/basil sorbet I made at the same time.

252. marjoribanks - 9/13/1999 4:27:43 PM

Er, Mond, old pal, surely you mean "phat", unless of course you're speaking of milk solids. But then they wouldn't be in a sorbet in the first place.

253. KurtMondaugen - 9/13/1999 4:29:26 PM

No, marj, I mean 'fab'. As in 'reet, daddy'. My pants fit, ergo, I do not speak "phat".

254. ScottLoar - 9/13/1999 4:34:00 PM

Nothing quite matches home-made strawberry-rhubarb pie. One too sweet,the other far too sour, yet together a perfect combination in pie or cobbler.

255. marjoribanks - 9/13/1999 4:40:34 PM

Oops, sorry, I need to take a break from staring at the screen. And it's my damned day off too. I'm going for a nice little walk around the block.

(To stay on topic I will purchase a nice sorbet from the Italian fellow on the corner, perhaps the old stand-by, lemon).

256. ScottLoar - 9/13/1999 4:42:03 PM

No, let it be almond. If he has it, and he should.

257. theDiva - 9/13/1999 4:47:57 PM

lemon ice? real lemon ice? sigh send me some, will you, banks?

258. theDiva - 9/13/1999 4:51:02 PM

the good kind....the kind that comes in little pleated paper cups, and the ice (it isn't really ice, it's gelato, but we just call it that because our parents and our grandparents did) gets all melty when it's really hot outside, and the paper cups gets soft, and you squeeze the paper cup to get every last little lemony drop of that fabulous ice, and if you're lucky you even get a nice little bitter bit of lemon peel.

Now I'm homesick.

259. glendajean - 9/13/1999 5:29:38 PM

Speaking of sorbet -- I want to add recipes and keep them for a few weeks on the side.

Kurt, if you post your recipe, we'll put up. Scott, if you have recipe of rhubarb/strawberry pie, please share. I'll post that, too.

260. webfeet - 9/13/1999 5:32:32 PM

yes, do post sorbet recipes. ive been eating the haagen dazs--which are luscious and guilt-free, but am curious how to do it myself.

261. glendajean - 9/13/1999 5:39:00 PM

Ben & Jerry's is better (if you like a more creamy, less icy taste).

Snow Owl -- I hope you give us frequent reports on spring in New Zealand. Is your pink magnolia what we call a tulip tree?

Here I look forward to the Redbuds blooming in spring. La Nina was blamed for our dry summer. Supposedly a sustained cool spot in the Pacific bumped the jet stream further north than usual, leaving us high and dry.

262. marjoribanks - 9/13/1999 5:44:01 PM

Okay I'm back. And it was the sorbetto limone I had, I don't think they have an almond flavor but I will check next time.

Diva, actually there are three separate Italian preparations. One, gelato, is the superbly smooth and richly flavored ice-cream. Then you have sorbetto, famous all over the south especially Naples. The shop I bought mine from is about as Neapolitan as you can get without actually being there. Essentially, it's a smooth preparation using water instead of milk. And then you have the granita, which is the rougher ice-based preparation widely referred to as "Italian ices' in NYC. This is popular all over the South, again, but especially in Sicily. I don't know, but I surmise it came to NYC with the large wave of Sicilian emigrants several decades ago.

263. JudithAtHome - 9/13/1999 5:50:50 PM

Well, my sweet tooth just engaged, big time!

264. marjoribanks - 9/13/1999 5:55:02 PM

By the way, I can't remember the name, but the gelato/sorbetto Mecca of the world must surely be that place slap bang on the Piazza Navona in Rome. It's wickedly expensive (like $5 a scoop) but so unbelievably good that you can't imagine anything better while you're eating it. And the square is pretty damn beautiful as well, a promenade of well-dressed Romans in the evening. If I had yet learned how to produce pictures here i'd go hunt one down, but I don't, so imagine it instead.

265. KurtMondaugen - 9/13/1999 6:10:58 PM

The sorbet's rather easy, actually:

Puree your fruit of choice and mix with whatever other ingredients you may want

make a syrup (half water, half sugar, cook on low till disolved) and allow to cool to room temp

mix syrup and fruit (4 parts fruit to 1 part syrup)

put in shallow pan in freezer

every 45 min, take out of freezer and mash and mix to fluff
keep doing that for about 5 hours until fully frozen and fluffy

Not hard at all.

266. glendajean - 9/13/1999 6:21:47 PM

Kurt -- your sorbet recipe is now on the Mote article lists. Anybody who clicks on it will get your post. Thanks!


Is there another? Who's next?

267. KurtMondaugen - 9/13/1999 6:34:06 PM

Golly, glenda, I've got better recipes than that one. If you're going to post every one anybody contributes, I hope you have a lot of server space. The gesture is appreciated, however.

268. glendajean - 9/13/1999 6:40:56 PM

Kurt -- in #259, I asked for your recipe so we could post it. Webfoot also said she wanted a sorbet recipe. We'll keep it up for a few days to a couple of weeks. If you want to add or modify it, let me know. Again, thanks for sharing it with us. I hope you will share others.

I forsee Bubbaette's salsa recipes seeing the light of the Mote, too.

269. KurtMondaugen - 9/13/1999 6:45:09 PM

Ah, got it.

270. marjoribanks - 9/13/1999 6:59:46 PM

GlendaJean,

You're posting links back to this thread discussion. You need a separate sub-thread. Like the Maputo Diary one. Check out the difference.

271. alistairconnor - 9/13/1999 7:37:40 PM

No need for a sub-thread, Sub-Con man. Glenda's use of the News feature is entirely appropriate, and what it was designed for.

Carry on... I think I'll do sorbets this summer.

272. marjoribanks - 9/13/1999 7:39:33 PM

No, I know it's appropriate there, AC. It's merely that he thought he was creating a separate space for recipes (I think). I may be wrong, of course.

273. SnowOwl - 9/13/1999 7:53:16 PM

glendajean,

I haven't got any idea whether the magnolia I was talking about is what you'd call a tulip tree. As far as I know it's Magnolia Campbelli, which is one of the deciduous magnolias, this particular variety originating in the Himalayas (I think). There are lots of them in bloom around this city at present, along with a whole host of rhodedendrons.

274. scabby ho - 9/13/1999 9:37:07 PM

Watch out for any recipies that Bubbaette posts -- I wouldn't trust that bitch any farther than I can kick her.

275. JudithAtHome - 9/13/1999 10:33:49 PM

I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

276. scabby ho - 9/13/1999 10:44:46 PM

Why don't you run on to bed now, Judith, and leave these evening hours to we women who know how to use them.

277. alistairconnor - 9/13/1999 10:56:58 PM

What I miss most about the Auckland climate is raspberries. And cherries. Absurd prices. I'll bet they are good down your way, Snow.

279. SnowOwl - 9/13/1999 11:22:27 PM

I've got some terrific raspberry canes in my own garden, Alistair, and of course the cherries are great but very expensive down here too, especially at Christmas when the prices go sky high.

I'm a displaced Aucklander so I miss feijoas, tamarillos and passion fruit all of which cost a bomb here. I haven't tasted a loquat since I've been in Dunedin and I could weep when I remember the grapefruit and lemons rotting on the ground in my mother's garden.

280. alistairconnor - 9/13/1999 11:34:41 PM

Why are cherries so damn expensive? Must be undersupply. Hell, I think I'll move to Otago and start a cherry farm.

282. Simba - 9/13/1999 11:54:03 PM

time check

283. theDiva - 9/14/1999 9:46:42 AM

banks

okay, so now I'm really homesick. I've had all three types; the gelato you describe best approximates what I was cybertasting. There was a place we would go to on Sunday evenings in the summer....Coquelles....they had what seemed to be a million different flavors, and pink champagne was always my favorite. I last tasted it when I was 12. I haven't been able to find its equal.

284. JudithAtHome - 9/14/1999 10:52:56 AM

We're on a special diet around here because my husband had oral surgery yesterday...any suggestions for a good broth recipe?

285. theDiva - 9/14/1999 10:58:26 AM

Judith

Oh yes.

1. Get a big stockpot and put a nice juicy roaster in it. Cover the roaster with cold water.

2. Add 2 scrubbed, unpeeled carrots; 4 ribs of celery (use the ones from the middle with the leaves); 6 garlic cloves, smashed; 2 onions, with one cut in half and 4 cloves stuck in a half; a scrubbed baking potato with the ends cut off; a big bunch of fresh thyme; a handful of peppercorns.

3. Bring this all to a boil. Lower heat, add salt to taste, and simmer for two hours.

4. Strain broth; save the chicken for soup or sandwiches or salad.

And I hope your honey feels better soon.

286. JudithAtHome - 9/14/1999 11:02:09 AM

Thanks, Diva...all I've fixed so far is miso; thought it would be healthy. I might do one with the chicken and another with a small roast? Would that be good, do you think? Of course, the beef one might turn into gravy...yum.

287. theDiva - 9/14/1999 11:02:58 AM

Oooh, a beef broth. Yummy. You could probably add bay leaves and a cubanel pepper to that one.

288. glendajean - 9/14/1999 3:22:32 PM

Judith & Diva, there's a very similar recipe for making broth/stock in the Alice B. Toklas Cookbook. I think the herbal mix is fresh thyme and savory. Also add a cup of white wine. When we cook that recipe, we use the meat for homemade chicken pot pie and use the stock for soups.

289. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:44:52 PM

Hey, neat, Glenda put me on the sidebar. I just noticed that. Thanks, dear!

290. glendajean - 9/14/1999 4:45:54 PM

I live to make you smile.

291. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:48:04 PM

heeheehee. You spoil me.

Say, I see where you're making the big move for sure. Did you really buy a house already, or did you just find one that you're thinking about.

292. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:48:33 PM

insert where appropriate.....

?

sheesh.

293. glendajean - 9/14/1999 4:53:56 PM

Diva -- I haven't even begun to start on selling my DC house.

Next time you're in church, say a prayer for me. I don't do moves well. I don't look for new jobs well.

BTW, if I'm still around through October, I'd love to a) attend the proposed DC moteunion and b) create for you one new flowerbed.

294. theDiva - 9/14/1999 4:58:42 PM

Glenda

Consider it done. I have choir practice tonight, I'll go into the chapel and light a candle for you.

Still, I hope you'll be here through October, and for the same reasons you've given.

295. theDiva - 9/14/1999 5:04:05 PM

Speaking of practice, I'd better get moving....have a lovely evening.

296. moonflower - 9/14/1999 5:24:46 PM

Hi everyone, I'm into gardening. Anyone have any cool plants to recommend for the fall or bulbs for spring?

Thanks, Moonflower

297. glendajean - 9/14/1999 5:27:13 PM

Moonflower, it depends on where you live....

Daffodils, tulips, crocuses, hyaciths are all lovely bulbs, but may be wrong for your region.

298. moonflower - 9/14/1999 6:50:47 PM

Hi Glendajean. I live near Philly. Our soil is a bit claylike. I have some of the traditional flowers (am now enjoying my asters!) but am also interested in some new or different varieties or species.

299. Blaise - 9/14/1999 7:22:24 PM

Moonflower: GET BACK TO THE POETRY THREAD! hahaha...

300. JudithAtHome - 9/14/1999 7:26:46 PM

glendajean:

I'm an old hand at moving...if you want any tips, just ask.

301. glendajean - 9/14/1999 7:28:18 PM

Start with daffodils. You can grow lots of different varieties and colors. One can never have too many daffodils. Make sure that your beds are prepared with compost (you can buy for $1.98 a bag from the Home Depot). Put a little bulb booster into the mix, and you'll have a beautiful spring garden.

Have you ever planted grape hyacinth? (muscari). It is a small purple flowered stem, not a true hyacinth, and naturalizes (or spreads out) well.

302. Blaise - 9/14/1999 7:28:29 PM

I am growing some tomato plants but the darn squirrels keep eating the tomatoes before they're ripe!

303. JudithAtHome - 9/14/1999 7:36:46 PM

I have grape hyacinth growing under my clothesline...they have "migrated" there and present quite a challenge as I adroitly skip over them while hanging clothes.

304. glendajean - 9/14/1999 8:24:25 PM

Judith, you can dig up the bulbs and move them. They should start sprouting soon, so I would do it fairly soon. They naturalize like mad in Texas.

Thanks for the offer to give advice on moving. I hate it and am bad at it. Any advice from you, my dear, is welcome.

Blaise, Bubbaette is our tomato expert. She might have some ideas for you.

305. ScottLoar - 9/14/1999 9:21:21 PM

The only sure cure for squirrels - kill them. Kill them not with poisons which may affect your fellow man and his kept beasts but with shot and arrow. A good pellet pistol, a crossbow, all are good, silent weapons. Some like to hang the carcass on a tree branch as a warning to its fellows but I say that taints the breeze. No, better to see the little buggers reduced in numbers until the straggling survivors are made to understand that to munch on your tomatoes is to enter the valley of death.

306. moonflower - 9/14/1999 9:22:36 PM

I have a few grape hyacinths and need more. Love snowdrops and a big thumbs up for anemones. Have 2 lenten roses and want more. But I have a relatively small space.

P.S. To Blaise. Ok, I'm heading over to poetry thread

307. marjoribanks - 9/14/1999 9:23:13 PM

Damn, that's a rather intense gardening attitude Loar.

308. KurtMondaugen - 9/14/1999 9:25:03 PM

Loar:

I have an as yet unidentified neighbor fond of poisoning the squrrels that populate our block. They often die in our yard, which is infuriating, not only because of the mess, but because of my concern for the neighborhood cats (mine in particular) and dogs. I'm tempted to nail a carcass to the local supermarket kiosk with a sign telling whoever's responsible exactly where they can put their poison, though I don't think it would stay up long enough for the guilty party to get the message.

309. ScottLoar - 9/14/1999 9:30:11 PM

Yes, dogs have the nasty habit of eating carrion (and cat shit by the way, attracted by the mineral contents, but having grown up around dogs just about every day of my childhood I've come to dislike the dumb brutes and their owners), and in some cultures people are curiously affected by a dog's death. No, the thing to do is pinion, hang, shoot or skewer squirrels.

310. ScottLoar - 9/14/1999 9:33:21 PM

Marjori, you have yet to see my wife with broom in hand racing about the second floor landing in Chicago chasing one fluffy-tailed and saucy squirrel who insists on uncovering My Lady's orchids. I dare not put pistol in my wife's hands for she'd use it with abandon.

311. marjoribanks - 9/14/1999 9:39:01 PM

Loar, one time in a hotel room in an exotic country, my companion, a very sweet and gentle Buddhist girl, became incensed at the buzzing of a fly. For an hour she stalked it with a glass in hand, to trap not kill, you understand. It was a ferocious stalking and battle, and eventually she won. We left it still buzzing mutedly on a bureau (under the glass) the next morning.

312. ScottLoar - 9/14/1999 9:40:32 PM

I've been that fly!

313. marjoribanks - 9/14/1999 9:42:49 PM

My wife, on the other hand, who spent her earliest years on farms in Africa and India, has not a qualm about slaughter. Watching her with live crabs, for instance, is not something I can manage for more than a couple of seconds. I try to avoid touching even the meat that comes ground and under plastic wrap, in contrast.

314. marjoribanks - 9/14/1999 9:43:45 PM

Very good, Loar.

315. moonflower - 9/14/1999 10:59:18 PM

Squirrels annoy me because they DARE to dig up freshly planted bulbs, thereby robbing my garden of more spring color. Still, I can't quite bring myself to kill them. I just wish they weren't so, so Republican!

316. SnowOwl - 9/14/1999 11:04:12 PM

Squirrels in gardens sound so exotic. There are no squirrels in NZ, the worst damage in my garden comes from the neighbour's cats and dogs using it as a litter box.

317. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 8:03:11 AM

But you have your sporting ways in New Zealand; you have those cuddly possums which you electrocute by the thousands with wired fencing.

318. DanDillon - 9/15/1999 9:26:29 AM

I've been that possum!

319. DanDillon - 9/15/1999 9:27:08 AM

But perhaps I ought to reserve my electrocution story for another thread.

320. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 10:03:21 AM

Dan, sometimes it's good, but it's never that good.

321. DocBrown - 9/15/1999 11:08:44 AM

Moonflower, what sort of bulbs to the squirrels dig up?

When my wife and I acquired our house it had lots of squirrels and lots of bulbs, and the two have coexisted peacefully for many years. The bulbs are lillies and peonies. The squirrels are red and grey.

322. DocBrown - 9/15/1999 11:15:55 AM

Can anyone advise me on finding an interior house painter?

My wife and I need to have two rooms painted in less than a month. We had a paint contractor lined up, but they backed out yesterday because our deadline is too short. They told us that any interior painters will require much more time than we gave them (we first contacted them six weeks before our deadline) to fit us into their schedule.

This seems very unreasonable to me. I can get a plumber or electrician with only one or two days' notice. Why does a painter need two months or more?

I would be inclined to think these guys are BSing me, except they are in my wife's family and have an excellent reputation.

323. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 11:17:34 AM

Yeah. Go find interior housepainters who need the work.

324. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 11:19:45 AM

And squirrels will randomly dig up potted or outside plants most often out of curiousity, or that they have been attracted by freshly turned soil. Beds long maintained are less likely to attract squirrels, or so that's the case with urban squirrels.

325. glendajean - 9/15/1999 11:22:48 AM

Doc -- squirrels often go after tulip bulbs (much sweeter than a peony root). I've never had that problem, but I know others in the DC area who have had it. The solution is to purchase wire cage-like enclosures for the bulbs, either from a local nursery or by mail order. I've read that in some places, moles also go after bulbs.

326. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 3:14:45 PM

#315 Moonflower:

I use squirrel assassination as a learning tool here at the Hermitage. Squirrels know not to go on the bird feeder under the pain of death, and we really have developed quite an understanding. I think the word is beginning to pass between the generations and I am beginning to feel like St. Uzmakk of Assissi as squirrel and man learn to live together..

327. DocBrown - 9/15/1999 3:52:38 PM

Uzmakk, did I miss something? You live at The Hermitage?

328. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 3:59:46 PM

A great link, I've a keen interest in Federalist architecture.

329. DocBrown - 9/15/1999 4:06:40 PM

ScottLoar, you have nicely explained how our bulbs can coexist peacefully with so many squirrels. Those lillies and peonies have been there for many years, maybe decades.

I'm trying to line up some non-family painters, as you suggest. BTW the previously mentioned painters (wife's family) are college students whose dormatory is in our neighborhood. Like many college students, they have a small housepainting business, and they definitely need money. It seemed perfect.

All we need painted are the dining room ceiling and the living room walls. They came out and looked at the job, but turned it down because it would take too long.

I feel sort of insulted. It's as if they said: "We thought we could do the job, until we saw what a dump your place is!"

Our house is in excellent condition. I think.

330. cmboyce - 9/15/1999 4:33:04 PM

Splendid place, Andy's joint, but I went there expecting this one.

And then, too, it could have been this one, with its nice orangery.

Or this, a geographical curiosity (and still on topic--food department).

Or, among many others (but entirely pointless to the thread, unless perhaps you live there), this one here.

331. moonflower - 9/15/1999 5:17:26 PM

Hi Uzmakk and everyone: I'm normally peace-loving, esp. w/animals, even squirrels. But I know of people who get these varmints in their houses and then all bets are off. They may not be easy to catch and poison or traps become the only realistic options. Unless, of course, one wants to live in squirrel shit and wake up to everything being gnawed. Though I admit, squirrels, even pesky ones, are often nicer than people.

332. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 5:22:55 PM

DocBrown, we most recently had the hallway, dining room, study and adjoining bathroom of our 1917 brownstone apartment gutted down to the bricks save some original woodwork, then rebuilt with dry wall (very thick non-standard drywall), new trim and kickboards, new garden box window in the study and new bay window in the dining room, new bathroom fixtures (a horrific expense) and the original ball-and-claw bathtub reporcelainized with new hardware (even more horrific expense) by a professional crew from start to finish. Neighbors saw the work in progress, would come over loitering about just to talk with the crew, even shout to them from third-storey windows... but the crew wasn't interested in anything less than total, quality jobs. They've got enough work to last 9 months with more bookings weekly. Nobody in the neighborhood could hire these guys.

Skilled labour is at a premium, and it seems painters - even college kids - can pick and choose. There's so much renovation and construction drywall needs 2-3 weeks to deliver. Drywall!

333. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 5:26:57 PM

Moonflower, although not terribly fond of the beast I grant that dogs, especially terriers, can keep squirrels distant if the terrain allows so. But for stalking get a cat, a big, big cat who thinks nothing of lining up dead fieldmice on the window sill. Squirrels don't like the cats.

Uzmak, though, may prefer gyrefalcons for squirrel control.

334. moonflower - 9/15/1999 7:20:33 PM

Hi Scott. Cats can help. I have 2, both indoors. They make weired sounds when they see squirrels. Unless one has had squirrels in the house, it's hard to know just how destructive they can be, little tornados with gray tails. But I'm not anti-squirrel. I've written two poems praising them. My praise prefers them outdoors but not digging up my bulbs.

335. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 9:24:10 PM

My Dear Loar:

The falcons and hawks do hunt in the back yard, funny to see them, after a miss, walking around like an old man going through a mud puddle in knickers, still trying to chase down their prey on foot.

I have a nice big 13 pound cat, but he is often at the outer reaches of his realm and while the cat's away the squirrels will play. The most annoying thing, however, is that some chipmunks have decided to reside on the uphill side of the house. They really make quite a tunnel complex, and when it rains their little burrows can actually contibute to water problems in the basement. They must go, but I am in no hurry.

336. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 9:25:30 PM

or, perhaps my cat has made some kind of an agreement with the squirrels.

337. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 9:29:46 PM

Chipmunks, eh? Perhaps you can gas'em. You know, some bleach and ammonia.

338. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 9:32:39 PM

I think I'm going to get one of those sound emitter thingys for the chipmunks.

339. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 9:33:45 PM

Snakes. Chipmunks are scared of snakes. Get snakes.

340. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 9:38:33 PM

Got snakes. Got chipmunks. Maybe they have made some kind of an agreement.

341. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 9:39:19 PM

and I think the cat may be in on it too.

342. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 9:40:56 PM

They're in collusion. A cabal. Move now.

343. Uzmakk - 9/15/1999 9:45:16 PM

Nehvuh, as God is mah witness, Ah will not be run off mah land by a conspiracy of varmints.

344. ScottLoar - 9/15/1999 9:48:40 PM

Yeah? Wait'll the critters rip your throat out as you lay asleep. Better you get'em first.

345. DanDillon - 9/15/1999 9:59:17 PM

LOL!

346. moonflower - 9/15/1999 10:13:32 PM

At least the Japanese beetles are gone away. They bullied my roses long enough!

347. glendajean - 9/16/1999 6:57:14 AM

Moonflower -- I'd love to hear about your garden. Please share.

And Scott -- I remember your sharing a little about going through the process of working on your home. If your willing, please tell us more.

348. moonflower - 9/16/1999 8:36:47 AM

Hi Glendajean and everyone--you asked about my garden. It's not big. I have a small house and have flowers all around it, no veggies whatsoever: if it don't bloom, aint got no room! This year I'm madly into vines. My hyacinth bean has 13 stalks with purple blossoms now turning into pods. Some roses--good success with one called Pure Poetry. Right now Tropicana is blooming: what a sweet smell! Failures too--dahlias may not all bloom, still no buds on 3 of them, fancy ones I got from a nursery in Oregon. Maybe next year. LOVE TO GARDEN!

349. glendajean - 9/16/1999 8:41:03 AM

Moonflower, I pretty much share your philosophy, mainly because I have such small space for gardening. Do you grow any herbs? They make great companion planting to flowering perennials.

Do you have any tree/shade problems cutting into your growing space?

350. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 8:42:20 AM

Herbs are also nice near a walkway so you can brush them with your foot as you walk by.

351. KuligintheHooligan - 9/16/1999 9:03:46 AM

I still want to talk about my yard here in Namibia but just haven't taken the time to yet. Sorry.

I'll say this though. You have to realize that we don't get any rain for a good six month stretch here, usually from about March to October. And the soil is absolutely horrible. For example, we don't have any grass in our yard, just dirt. But this is the way it is in Namibia!

352. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 10:52:25 AM

The winds have picked up quite a bit, as have the rains. The ground is so soft from near 1/2 inch of rain per hour since last Midnight.

The water is over 2 of the dams in Bryan park near by, but still has a good 6 feet to go before it covers Lakeside Dr. There is speculation that the 3rd dam is weak.

353. theDiva - 9/16/1999 11:01:31 AM

Hey Bubb

When's DH due home? Got a pot of hot soup on the stove for him? Poor baby.

354. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 11:09:23 AM

diva

He should be home around 2:30, if all goes well. A number of the mechanics from the outlying areas cant get in because the roads are closed. The major roads in south Richmond are closed and under 6 to 12 inches of water.

Still, I hope they're not trying to make carriers deliver to submerged routes.

I have a big pot of chili on and have made up some sesame noodles and a big salad in case the power goes out. Looks like Virginia Beach is going to get socked the worst -- in about 2 hours.

Are you at work?

355. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 11:17:57 AM

Our condominium was built in 1917, badly maintained as a rental unit for about 15-20 years until we purchased it in 1987, in a neighborhood which has since become gentrified to investors' delight. The structure is sound, the red oak floors saved from damage and zealots' misunderstanding who would stain such beauty dark mahogany, and original woodwork covered in layers of latex paint. Over the course of 10 years we have systematically renovated the place room by room, saving the windows and woodwork wherever possible, which includes the 1917 icebox in the kitchen which porcelain interior boasts The Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.

Our experience has been
1) Save no interior appointments unless merited so by quality construction, materials, or historical significance;
2) Do save windows and glass - it is best you strip, clean, glaze, caulk and rehang double-hung windows yourself as the expense of hiring others is prohibitive;
3) Replace hardware with quality - the cheap stuff doesn't last and looks out of place - but never beyond the tone or style of the premises (yes, you may like Euro-design fixtures but will they look appropriate to the room?;
4) Pay strict attention to all utilities - wiring, plumbing, electricals - and pay licensed professionals to do the work unless you yourself genuinely have the competency to do the work yourself;
5) Whenever a crew quotes a job be sure it excludes materials. If left to the choice and discretion of the crew (what do you think they know of taste?) the materials will usually be of common or inferior quality. By all means choose exterior woods, hardware, lighting fixtures, even switches and quality of paint yourself.

And it may be a cliche to say so, but be prepared for unexpected delays and difficulties which will throw the job way beyond budget and time allowed. Be prepared for expense and inconvenience if you want it done your way (take a lesson from Frank Sinatra).

356. glendajean - 9/16/1999 11:23:46 AM

Scott -- is it all finished now and are you pleased with the outcome? Yesterday, you talked about drywall. Were the original walls plaster and did you decide drywall was better? Would you do the work all over again?

One of the nice things about the older neighborhoods in this city are the annual home tours where one gets an opportunity to see both loving restorations and re-creations. Thanks for giving us a virtual tour of your condominium (and please describe more of the process and the finished product).

357. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 11:36:43 AM

The place is now finished and the latest results are of course more pleasing as we gained experience in renovating and remodeling. The only original plaster walls remain in the living room/music room, which cracks were gouged free, reinforced with mesh, then replastered and the entire walls skim-plastered (I think that's the word: a sheet of plaster recovering the walls). I prefer a thick drywall to plaster, as it is convenient and cheaper, but if the house is of historical significance plaster should remain. Remember, a house attracts odors, and after 75-100 years the plaster and woodwork betray every scent of those past years. Stripping and refinishing the woodwork, and taking down plaster to replace with drywall, freshens the room. I have never seen any bathroom or kitchen more than 25 years old that could not stand a complete gutting.

Would we do it all over again? Yes, without hesitation, for the value of our property has increased more than three-fold in 10 years, partly due to the neighborhood but undeniably by reason of our improvements. Remember, this is where we live, and the condition and appearance of the place is not only a reflection of its owners but also a practical investment.

358. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 11:37:20 AM

Uh oh. Looks like Richmond may get some of the high winds from the eye in the next 2 hours. The water in Portsmouth has gone out and much of Hampton Roads is flooded. They're also calling for another 10 inches of rain. Half of Richmond has lost electricity.

359. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 11:47:44 AM

There are certain features I took pains to preserve. All the original window panes were of the time - bubble glass - and I did not replace them unless cracked or broken, but the hardware throughout the place was mediocre and I replaced it without mercy save the nickel hinges of the icebox. Doors, too, I preserved. The doors of the study were so thoroughly coated in latex paint I first thought of throwing them away, but a single pass with heat gun and putty knife revealed a beautiful finish, again saved by the very paint which disfigured the doors. I refinished the doors (now, that's a job I can do well, along with cleaning floors and windows) and now the study has three beautiful doors all of a type - the results invariably evoke the comment "WOW". To replace those doors would have cost me a small fortune, refinishing those doors by others' labour would have cost me a small fortune.

360. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 11:56:19 AM

Get to know your suppliers well - hardware, tile, paint, finished lumber -and they will respond to persons who are interested and want quality by sharing their time and knowledge. I've been back to the same small tile store three times for separate purchases and recommended it to others, for in that small store is a man of good sense, good taste, and a good selection, quite contrary to some of the mammoth outlets offering hundreds of varieties. Pricing? The same, for the items I picked out can be had at the discount stores "on special order".

361. glendajean - 9/16/1999 11:58:16 AM

I assume you are a good hand with the heat gun. Because I assumed I wouldn't be, I've stripped chairs before in my basement, and even with the door and windows open, and fans blowing fumes out, the smells nearly killed me.

It's sad, but new townhouses in this area use plastic mold formed doors for interior doors. Those lovely details seem to be lost.

362. theDiva - 9/16/1999 12:07:20 PM

Bubb

Yes. They've closed the schools, and granted us liberal leave. As luck would have it, however, I'm working on something for a BOCS member and I've got to get it done.

And for this they pay me the big bucks. HA! Send me some of those sesame noodles, will you?

363. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 12:12:16 PM

Sesame noodles completed -- peanuts and cuke ok?

364. glendajean - 9/16/1999 12:14:18 PM

I cannot tell you how much I am appreciating the sound of rain. When the Dennis rains came, I was out of town. I'd almost forgotten the pleasing smell and sound of rainfall.

Bubbatte -- yum, yum.

365. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 12:20:20 PM

Glenda

I think I'd enjoy the rain more if it weren't blowing sideways. I'm also not real happy with the way the big ol maple tree on the corner of our lot is blowing around.

366. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 12:23:00 PM

Glendajean, I've a good hand with the heat gun but too earnest. I once stripped a Windsor chair of original, dark paint. The chair is behind me now, beautiful lines but down to the woods.

367. glendajean - 9/16/1999 12:28:05 PM

Stripping chemicals are so hard on me that I think the heat gun would be preferable. I've read that if one can have a light touch, the final outcome with a gun looks quite good.

Of course, there is also the theory that deep stripping takes away accumulated patina of the wood, a sort of vague value that is missed once its gone. My old church in Georgetown has wonderful wood fixtures that have darkened with time and I've wondered where stripping or just cleaning is the answer to bring the wood back to its beauty.

368. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 12:34:55 PM

I never use chemical strippers to free paint; they're harsh and overpowering. Strip the wood with a heat gun and putty knife, then with 000 steelwool dipped in a 50/50 mixture of denatured alcohol and mineral spirits rub the remaining paint and varnish free. This same mixture will work wonders on the woodwork of that old church in Georgetown. Dip stripping is callous, a seemingly easy alternative to hard work. The results show.

369. theDiva - 9/16/1999 12:37:38 PM

Bubb

It's the only way. God, I'm hungry.

370. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 12:42:51 PM

Diva

here you go, sweetie -- a little shredded grilled chicken on top should hold you for a while.

371. theDiva - 9/16/1999 12:44:45 PM

mbthpmdd....mmmm.....

372. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 12:45:55 PM

Not bad if I do say so myself. It's Ratzilla's recipe from over on TT.

373. glendajean - 9/16/1999 1:11:52 PM

Now that I'm leaving town, I won't be around for the discussions about the wood. But the people who are trustees have been quite solid in their other decisions about the church building.

Renovation has taken place in steps. The core of the building was from the mid-1850s and the sanctuary has the most incredible acoustics.

374. glendajean - 9/16/1999 1:12:20 PM

Bubbaette - has the winds passed on by yet?

375. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 1:15:10 PM

I suggest that the committee try my recommendation of 50/50 denatured alcohol/mineral spirits mixture rubbed with 000 steelwool to an unobtrusive place, and watch the results appear. Do not, do not, do not for the love of old wood allow anyone to approach within 1000 feet of the church doors with sandpaper in hand.

376. glendajean - 9/16/1999 1:26:13 PM

I believe that is right on target advice, Scott, and I will pass it along.

377. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 1:34:03 PM

Glenda

Yep -- looks like the worst is past. The water's starting to subside on the major roads, though we're still getting big gusts from time to time. I had to take my banner and hanging plants off the porch as they were rocking wildly.

8 and a half inches and counting. As soon as DH comes home, we might walk out and take another look at the dams down by the park.

378. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 1:36:53 PM

I want to remove the wallpaper from the main bathroom in my house, fill in the termite damage, then paint it with a textured look, and finish off with the matching border I got when I bought the shower curtain, towels, regs, and accessories.

I have never done this before and I am wondering if it will be too difficult for me physically (3 damaged vertebrae plus injured left hip and right knee).

SO... what do you more experienced folks say?

Is there an easy way to do this myself?

379. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 1:37:26 PM

regs = rugs

380. glendajean - 9/16/1999 1:38:12 PM

Somebody in my office just told me that the center of the storm just passed through Norfolk, and that our worst will be around 5-6 pm. Supposedly flights at National are being cancelled right and left.

Yuck, we're going to be driving home in the middle of the storm. Afternoon traffic here is always much worse than morning traffic, and storms rachet up the intensity by several notches.

381. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 1:39:41 PM

Christi

What kind of wallpaper is currently on the walls? I about disabled my hands for 2 weeks by stripping old vinyl wallpaper with sizing paper behind it. After that experience, I'll never put up wallpaper anywhere.

382. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 1:40:09 PM

now?

383. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 1:40:45 PM

better?

384. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 2:24:58 PM

ChristiPeters, as a young man hale and hearty at 32 I hung wallpaper with my landlady - never again. Wallpaper is one of those things that in experienced hands goes up fast and neat, and in the hands of rank amateurs shows it was put up by rank amateurs - the home improvement shows be damned. I do promise you this, if you put up the wallpaper yourself you will come to painfully understand the severest extent of every disability. The easy way to put up wallpaper? Hire the job out.

385. ScottLoar - 9/16/1999 2:26:01 PM

What the hell is happening?

386. moonflower - 9/16/1999 2:53:11 PM

This hurricane is sending water pronto into my basement. Oh, the poor cats with their floating litter boxes! Hope my asters don't get wet feet from standing in it. I do have some trees, a thrilling maple which provides shade in back, but also some sunny places. I haven't been mulching (shame on me). Next year, I'll have to do this.

387. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 3:03:23 PM

Scott - I'm not putting up wallpaper - I want to take it down and replace it with paint and a border. I don't like wallpaper as it limits your redecorating options, imo. The wallpaper in question doesn't go with my bathroom stuff and is termite damaged to boot.

Is taking wallpaper off as difficult, more difficult, less difficult than putting it up?

I already know that I can paint the room myself if I don't try to do it all in one day.

388. theDiva - 9/16/1999 3:05:07 PM

did that do the trick?

389. theDiva - 9/16/1999 3:06:08 PM

moonflower, I love your handle.

Glenda, don't you guys have liberal leave? Can't you just go home now?

390. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 3:12:09 PM

bubbaette -

I don't know what kind of wallpaper it is, but it was put up since 1991. That's when the lady I bought this house from bought it. She told me she "redid" all the walls and floors. The foyer and the kitchen have lovely ceramic tile. The hall to the bedrooms is that new stuff that looks and feels like wood floor, but never needs waxing. The carpet in the living room and dining room is in good condition and is thick with a thick pad.

The only things I want to change now are the termite damaged wall paper in the main bathroom and the wallpaper in the kitchen (I just don't like the kitchen wallpaper). In neither case do I intend to replace the wallpaper with different wallpaper.

391. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 3:13:27 PM

My thought, prayers, and good luck wishes go to all Moties facing the hurricane.

(Heck, to anyone! facing the hurricane or any other potential disaster!)

392. Fraaankster - 9/16/1999 3:55:41 PM

Anyone know anything about trees, specifically berry types ? I'm interested in something that will provide fruit as well as shade. Lately, any free time I've had has been dedicated solely to getting this yard going. After renting a tiller, amending the clay soil with mulch and steer manure, and grooming it to provide drainage, the neighbors have come out to add their "two cents" ( By the way, not one lifted a finger in helping me remove the pepper tree stump and its roots which took me almost a month to remove -- I dug a hole the size of a small swimming pool to get that octopus out, by the way ). Yesterday, I thought I would finally get the chance to lay the grass seed down for the lawn I have planned in one section, but a neighbor came out to tell me that a friend of his wanted a palm tree we have on the lot. It's right next to the planned lawn, so now I have to wait until after Sunday to lay it ( sigh ). Laying it down now would be an exercise in futility at this point since they would probably trample all over it removing the palm tree. I've been working on this yard for over a month, so why didn't he ( neighbor ) plan the palm's removal sooner ? If thay are not gonna help, at least get out of the way, right ?!

Okay, I'm tired bitching for now.

I hope none of y'all are being adversely affected by the hurricane. My thoughts are with you.

393. glendajean - 9/16/1999 4:40:26 PM

Fraaank -- I love fruit trees, particularly for their colorful blooms in spring. I'm not sure what grows well in Southern California (I assume lots), but you should go to a reputable nursery and talk to someone about what they have in stock and what they suggest. Other routes to getting good information about local planting conditions and plant choices, call your local agricultural extension agent. They are paid to answer your questions. Many AEAs also sponsor a Master Gardener program that teaches local volunteers in extensive horticultural trainings. These master gardeners are required to spend some time responding to public gardening questions.

There are, of course, lots of information on the internet and in gardening books. The best advice comes from experienced, local gardeners in your area. The second best is from books written about gardening in your area.

A tree is a big investment, so you want to get one that is healthy, and that is ideal for your specific climate and soils. Good luck.

Maybe somebody here who lives in Southern California would have a suggestion for Fraaank?

394. glendajean - 9/16/1999 4:42:18 PM

Diva -- I may work for liberals, but the leave policy is Washington Type A. We work. Remember the big blizzard in 1996? We were here almost every day through it, even though it meant walking through snow trenches.

I bet we close a little early though.

395. theDiva - 9/16/1999 4:58:10 PM

Glenda

You work for the same types I do. We didn't close then, either. Sheesh.

396. glendajean - 9/16/1999 4:59:59 PM

Somebody just told me that it's over for DC. No more winds. Passed us by. Have you heard that?

397. theDiva - 9/16/1999 5:01:47 PM

Well, I just checked weatherchannel.com for the regional doppler. There's not a bit of rain anywhere near either of us. It appears to be headed into Philly at the moment. The winds here in town are 28mph.

398. glendajean - 9/16/1999 5:04:31 PM

We survived.

399. theDiva - 9/16/1999 5:06:20 PM

Glory be.

Well, I think I'll go squishing on out to my car. Have a good evening, get home dry and in one piece, eh?

400. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 5:22:19 PM

glendajean -

Glad to hear it!

401. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 5:22:56 PM

G'night, Diva -

I hope Gracie is feeling better.

402. moonflower - 9/16/1999 7:14:20 PM

Thanks, Diva, for liking my "moonflower" handle. The hurricane is now past Philly but many are without power, have wet basements, and many big roads are closed. Hang on, New England, a grim night awaits.

403. glendajean - 9/16/1999 8:19:59 PM

On the way home tonight, a block from our house, we saw the giant Elm tree draped across the street, stopping traffic. For many years, the streets of Washington were lined with tall, giant elms, but Dutch Elm Disease has killed these giants, with old age getting much of the rest.

Our street has several of the old elms, and while the neighborhood has been collecting money for years to provide special tending to these trees, we've all known that it was possible to lose them.

After parking our car, we walked over to the tree. It's over 40 feet in length, and its roots pulled up part of the sidewalk and most of the tree box around it as it fell over. The roots were thick, and knotty, and painted in orange clay dirt, and the now large whole in the ground was filled with rain water.

The trunk fell neatly between two parked cars, and the only other casualty was a street light across the street that was smashed by tree limbs. Somebody put flares on one end of the busy block, and a yellow plastic tape on the other end. People from the neighborhood walked around the tree and stared down at the hole and the sudden open space now open where the tree once stood, and the sky now exposed where there was shade.

I walked out to the huge upper branches and felt the moss along one side of the trunk. When the tree fell, its' trunk splattered in part. I patted the tree trunk, looked out once again at this unnatural sight and walked back to the house. The city employees are cutting it up now.

One other casualty: a long dead redbud next to my neighbor's house, a source of my worrying for four years, fell, too, but the tall holly tree and the maple tree between our houses caught it, and the extreme branches are hanging in air about a foot from my living room side window. Guess they'll be getting rid of that dead tree trunk now.

404. glendajean - 9/16/1999 8:21:39 PM

that's hole, not whole...

405. glendajean - 9/16/1999 10:13:47 PM

Guess the District government decided the street could be blocked through the night. It's still laying down there on its side, so large that one can hardly see past it. Cars keep turning at the yellow tape, stuck because of other streets closed for re-paving.

406. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 7:51:46 AM

Now if that doesn't sound like the D.C. government that I used to know and love so well.!

We suffered no damage at all -- never even lost electricity except in flickers. Hampton and Va. Beach got hit pretty hard and Va. Beach was not recovered from Dennis yet.

DH and I walked out after the rains stopped. The water was receding, but still spilling over the tops of both dams. One of the side abutments on one of the dams has been a bit undermind and there's a 2 and a half foot by 2 foot scour hole that opened up where the water turned.
lake, about 4 feet from the current high level of water was a line of syrofoam cups, tennis balls, bottles, and other flotsam extending for the length of the waterway on both sides. Probably every bit of uphill and upstream detritus that slobs have littered through the park in 5 years was piled up.

The neighborhood lost a number of tall maples, some oaks and a really nice crepe myrtle.

407. glendajean - 9/17/1999 8:50:01 AM

Bubbaette -- I'm glad that the dams in your neighborhood held.

The Post this morning says that the rains did break the drought, but some guy also warned that droughts in this area often last 2 to 7 years and we may have more dry summers ahead. Or you will. I'll be having dry summers in Indiana.

Quite a traffic jam this morning outside my house. The Maryland drivers are so mad, so insistent on speeding, and so impatient with anybody getting in their way that I'm afraid there will be some acting out. I guess they've been stuck in those cars for so long that by this point they're on the edge, too many rats in the maze.

408. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 8:53:20 AM

Glenda

Interesting mental picture. When I used to ride the metro to work when I lived in Friendship heights or North Arlington, the loading and unloading process always reminded me of loading cattle on a truck for market. Driving a car in bad weather in D.C. is more akin to trying to herd pigs.

409. glendajean - 9/17/1999 8:56:57 AM

And God forbid one strolls in front of a subway station downtown during rush hour. It's as dangerous as walking in the middle of the street.

410. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 9:19:03 AM

Glenda

you may even LIKE the slower pace of the midwest.

411. glendajean - 9/17/1999 9:43:45 AM

That's the one part I assume I'll cherish.

Moonflower brought up the question of bulbs. Now that fall is getting here (and at least in the east, the ground is diggable again), this is the time to purchase and plant bulbs for next spring.

Any opinions about what to plant? Moonflower asked a similar question a few days ago.

In you live in a more temperate winter climate, let me suggest renunculus bulbs, bird claw-like tubers that grow into beautiful flowers. In places like Austin, one can plant them in late fall, but in colder areas, in late winter. I think these are originally from Iran. It's been a few years since I've grown any, but I may put some in a pot and force them this spring.

Spring bulbs are tonic to winter, coming before most everything to bring color in that cool period when flowering perennials are just starting to put out growth.

My favorite remains the daffodil, because varieties often naturalize easily, because I enjoy their colors. I currently have several with white petals and apricot-pink centers. If your daffodils are putting on foilage but not blooming, chances are they aren't getting enough sun. Plantings next to small trees work, but once the tree (or foundation shrub plantings) get larger, the light gets blocked and the bulbs lose the sunlight they need to produce flowers. Now is the time to dig up bulbs like that and move them to another location.

412. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 9:48:40 AM

I've ordered another 40 daffodils, 60 crocuses, 25 tulips, and a dozen hycinths. I love the way the hycinths smell, so I'm going to plant more in one of the beds under a window. The daffodils and crocuses will go into a sunny bed between two azalea bushes outside my kitchen window and into another bed out at the street. I'll decide on the tulips later.

I do notice that my garden and flower beds seem to be getting larger every year.

413. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 9:51:48 AM

I first started edging my flower beds with cobblestones left over from building the low stone retaining wall out by the street. Now I've run out of the leftovers and need to find another source.

414. glendajean - 9/17/1999 9:56:08 AM

Bubbaette, why grow sod?

The rule of thumb on planting bulbs is to dig a hole 3 times as deep as the bulb is long. But I find when planting a large number of bulbs (and one should always think in terms of more than 10), that it is easier to dig a trench where the bulbs can be laid out and then covered up.

Sometimes there isn't room to do that, particularly if you are planting between perennials. Most nurseries have bulb hole diggers, some variation of a round metal cylinder that is open on the ends. I've had mine for about 10 years and it has a release on its handle that allows the dirt to fall easily out. These can also be bought with long handles, its purpose to cut down on the back-breaking part of bending over and digging hole after hole.

When I am planting one hole at a time, I often use straws to mark where each bulb is planted until I am finished so I won't make the mistake of cutting up a planted bulb.

415. glendajean - 9/17/1999 9:57:09 AM

Go to a local stone or brick dealer and you should be able to find suitable edging. I used large washed rocks.

416. glendajean - 9/17/1999 9:57:11 AM

Go to a local stone or brick dealer and you should be able to find suitable edging. I used large washed rocks.

417. theDiva - 9/17/1999 9:57:30 AM

Good morning, darlings.

I want to plant grape hyacinths and lily of the valley. I think they'd look great under the dogwood in the back. I suppose now would be a good time to put in some daylilies, too. Trouble is, I've never done bulbs....and what about moving perennials and shrubs? Is now a good time, or should I wait?

418. glendajean - 9/17/1999 9:57:38 AM

I use those rocks. Sorry about the double whammy.

419. theDiva - 9/17/1999 9:58:54 AM

I wish we could sit around my kitchen table and have coffee. sniffle

420. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:02:45 AM

Wouldn't that be nice? Danish, Diva?

421. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:04:20 AM

Diva -- now is the perfect time to move and/or divide most flowering perennials, the exception of course, being asters or chrysanthemums which are now reaching their flowering season. Irises should already have been divided.

Why now? Because temperatures from here on will be moderate, allowing the plants time before winter to re-build their root structure, and preparing them for next summer where they will be able to face the heat much better than if they were planted in spring.

Using this same logic, now is the time to work on beds, make new ones, clean out weeds. The ground is soft, you won't sweat like a pig (of course, they don't sweat, but you know what I mean) and its so much easier to work with soft soil than hardened, dry soil.

422. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:05:19 AM

Definitely plant trees and shrubs now, although oaks like it better to be planted in spring.

423. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:05:30 AM

Glendajean

I tried using one of those long-handled bulb planters last year to plant more than 200 bulbs. The daggone thing bent all up before I'd gotten the first 25 planted. DH took it to work and welded on a steel pipe for the handle and welded the blade in several places to make it stronger, but I think I'd still rather take the sod off, dig a bed, plant the bulbs and then fill it back in.

424. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:05:51 AM

And ladies, hot tea for me. And bisquits.

425. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:08:13 AM

The down side of the 10 to 13 inches of rain we received yesterday is that the mesquitos, already unbearable where I live, will be even worse for a while. Curse them.

426. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:08:27 AM

Good point, bubbaette.

Tools sold at places like Home Depot are the cheapest kind and often break when put under real use -- my favorite all-time tools are hand trowels and spading forks and I broke both. I finally figured out that it was worth spending a little more money for quality tools that I use over and over.

My bulb digger is from West Germany and quite tough -- it's lasted a long time.

427. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:12:22 AM

Glenda

I finally figured that, too. My most-used tools are the a little flat short handled spade, a digging fork, and a trowel. But my husband keeps carrying off my trowel whenever he bbq's. I try to buy him one of his own, but he then he takes both.

428. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:13:39 AM

Bubbaette -- don't you think that cooler temps will take care of our humid and sultry bloodsuckers?

Diva -- you can plant daylilies in spring --that's when the nurseries start putting them out and you'll have a better selection. Now or spring. You're choice.

429. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:16:51 AM

You're more generous with your mate than I am. I have a wood handle trowel and I am terribly possessive of it. I use the trowel to dig out weeds and to plant.

I couldn't work in a garden without my spading fork -- it's great for major weeding, but especially good for making a new bed.

430. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:17:37 AM

Glendajean

I certainly hope so. I hate haveing to wear long sleeves and pants in the garden during the summer.

This is also a good time of year to work your compost as you're cleaning your beds. I plan to turn mine this weekend so it will be ready when I start putting in the new beds. I also like to get a small bag of lime and to start adding lime to the compost when I start composting fall leaves.

431. theDiva - 9/17/1999 10:18:43 AM

Hmmmmm....something just occurred to me.

I want to move my clematis to the sunniest, wettest corner of the backyard, but the morning glories are blooming full and glorious in that very spot. Am I out of luck? How late is too late to move perennials?

432. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:19:07 AM

Pitch a little horse manure in there, too. It's gold on the compost.

Bubba -- what's your process of making a new bed?

433. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:19:23 AM

Glenda

I've come to compromise. He can use my trowel to bbq, but he MAY NOT use my cookware to drain oil, measure antifreeze, etc. Sheesh!

434. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:21:49 AM

Diva, you want seven weeks or so before the ground is hard and frozen. Fall warmth allows the plants time to build their roots. I'd do it now and take advantage of the warmer temps for the next few weeks.

435. theDiva - 9/17/1999 10:22:51 AM

When I move the clematis, should I cut off all the foliage and just move the roots?

436. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:24:44 AM

Glenda

First I cut the sod around the edges of where I want the bed to be. Then I lift the sod out in sections -- saving it if I want to replace it on top of the bed, or knocking the dirt off and composting the sod if I plan to mulch the bed.

I like to dig in compost and peat moss down to about a foot and a half. If I'm planting bulbs, shovel the soil onto an old shower curtain I've saved for the purpose, place the bulbs where I want them, and then shovel the dirt back in. For daffodils and crocuses, I dig the deeper layer for daffodils and then plant crocuses on top.

Then I firm the soil to try to tamp out any air pockets around the bulbs, mulch on top and then put the border in.

437. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:30:29 AM

Hmmm. From the International Clematis Society FAQ page (dialspace.dial.pipex.com/clematis/):

If your Clematis is an established plant we would not advise trying to move it. It will involve a lot of hard work to get the roots out intact and despite your care you will probably damage them. From collected experience the exercise will probably result in failure.

Best to start again with a new plant in the new position.

Smaller plants a year or so old can be moved with care. Autumn is the best time so the plant has a chance to establish itself before the summer. If you move it in the spring water well throughout the summer.

438. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:32:39 AM

Bubbaette -- do you double-trench? How do you work in the soil amendments?

439. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:36:07 AM

Glenda

I work in the compost and peat moss first, as I loosen the soil, and then dig it all out onto the shower curtain. I dig in a little more compost at the bottom of the bed as I loosen up that soil.

440. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:39:01 AM

It's been years since I've used a tiller. Do you use one on your vegetable beds? Is your technique similar for the vegetable garden?

441. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:40:31 AM

In the veggie garden in the fall, I pull up the remains of the veggies and get DH to run over them with the lawn-mower and then set them aside for compost. Depending on whether I'm able to borrow a tiller or not, I either rake the beds to remove remaining weeds and vegitation and then spade the beds, or I till the weeds and remaining vegitation under.

Then I take a few wheelbarrow loads of finished compost and spread it out over the garden and spade or till it in, and plant over the top with mustard and kale. In the spring, when I till in the mustard and kale, I add another couple wheelbarrow loads of compost and till it in as I'm getting ready to plant.

442. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:41:53 AM

Glenda

I don't have a tiller, but love using a borrowed or rented on for my veggie garden. My flower beds I work by hand.

443. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:42:08 AM

Wow. You and George Washington with the green manure. Sounds like your beds are heavenly. Do you ever smell the sweetness in the soil?

444. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:48:29 AM

Glenda

The soil was good to begin with -- black and loamy. I had to sweeten it with lime because the soil was quite acid. It is looking even better now.

I figure that all the veggie matter I can compost not only helps the soil, but saves landfill space. I also haven't had to buy any top soil when I built my two raised beds.

445. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:52:07 AM

There is some debate about digging beds for flowering perennials. I pretty much follow what you do, a semi-trenching effort. I dig down two feet and move the dirt to one side, dig a new hole next to it, turning the soil back over to the first hole, and repeat this through the length of the bed.

Then I work in the bag upon bag of compost and composted manure.

I think that's fairly popular in Britain. But there is a question of over-areorating the soil, and losing important nutrients.

I still like to do this for a new bed, packing in as much organic materials as I can (I've always gardened in heavy clay soils) so that the bed will allow good deep roots for the plants. I assume vegetable gardens need the deep tilling because they have much larger root systems.

446. theDiva - 9/17/1999 10:52:57 AM

Glenda, thanks......my plants are young enough to move. Between you and Bubba, I have been inspired to spend my weekend in the garden. Bless you both.

447. glendajean - 9/17/1999 10:56:51 AM

Why, you may ask, dear Diva, all this garden talk? Because we've had several days of rain and the sky is blue and the temperatures this morning were below 60.

I am incredibly sensitive to weather and most gardening makes sense to me by getting cues from the weather. A beautiful temperate day is perfect for gardening. A sudden change to that kind of weather is a clue the season is changing and then I begin to ask, what needs to be done now?

That's why gardeners go crazy with their garden catalogs in winter and their trays of seedlings in the basement (the doing-nothing periods). And why a beautiful day before the last average freeze date is so damn teasing.

448. Bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:59:07 AM

Amen!

I wore a jacket to work today for the first time in months.

449. theDiva - 9/17/1999 11:06:39 AM

Absolutely, darlings. I can hardly wait to get my hands dirty. The hot weather just kills my appetite for gardening.

We've been sleeping under quilts all week. I am so thrilled that fall is coming.

450. SnowOwl - 9/17/1999 6:13:52 PM

Darn. time zones mean I'm a bit late for the discussion on Spring bulbs, but since mine are almost all blooming now I'll just tack my bit on here. I've just come inside from wandering around in the garden. Unfortunately, the warm, dry Spring we were promised hasn't materialised and it is very boggy and wet underfoot. In every corner of the garden things are starting to appear, the early daffodils are almost over, some of the later blooming varieties are just beginning to open. Snowdrops have been and gone, snowflakes are just beginning. I noticed buds on the freesias today. My hyacinths are all flowering now, and their scent is gorgeous when I bend down near them. My frittilarias are up, but there's no sign of any buds forming so far and I can't remember when they fllowered last year. I really need to keep a gardening diary. Tulips are not far away from flowering, grape hyacinths have almost completely taken over a previously empty area under a wild cherry tree. Glenda, I agree with you about ranunculus, I love them and this year planted dozens.

Most of the blossom trees are in flower. My favourite is a miniature weeping cherry which at the moment looks as though it is covered in big pink marshmallows. I planted this a few years ago, at a time I had much less knowledge about gardening than I do now. Of course, I planted it in the wrong place and it is now much too big for where it is and has begun to make it almost impossible to walk down the front path. I've decided to reroute the path, which is going to open up a whole new area for me to make into garden.

Diva, you said you were going to move a clematis into the sunniest place in your garden. Don't forget the old saying, feet in the shade, head in the sun. If you are planting it in full sun it might be an idea to plant something low at the base, to keep the roots cool, although if you are planting it in a very wet area that might not be a
problem.

451. moonflower - 9/17/1999 6:31:58 PM

I have this weird thing about moving plants--even though I know they might thrive in a better place, I get nervous about so disturbing the roots that they'll die. I have a miniature rose who would kiss me on the lips if I would move it to a sunnier locale. But I'm in mourning today anyway. What we got of that hurricane has FLATTENED two dahlias who were just beginning to come on strong. May lose them. Gardening is joy, but oh, the heartbreak!

452. SnowOwl - 9/17/1999 6:42:46 PM

moonflower,

For me part of the joy of gardening is the uncertainty. I plan, I plant, I do all the right things and something can come along and undo all my good work. If the dahlias don't flower this year it's not a complete loss, they should still come back next year.

Don't be afraid of moving the rose, it really will respond in a sunnier area. I move roses all the time and I'm sure the experts would cringe to see the damage I sometimes inflict on their roots, but I've never managed to kill one yet. I once moved a huge rose that had been here long before we ever bought the house, and in the process the thing actually broke completely in half. I thought that was the end, but I planted both halves and to my surprise they both grew.

453. moonflower - 9/17/1999 10:20:21 PM

Hi SnowOwl (cool name--love owls!), You are giving me the courage to get over my nervousness about moving plants. That mini rose will be moved! As for my wind-flattened dahlias, I'm going to try to stake them up tomorrow and hope it helps. It may. BTW, I have allium giganteums which I love but it's time to separate them to ensure bigger blooms in spring. Should I do it now or wait till October?

454. bubbaette - 9/17/1999 10:27:42 PM

My next door neighbors have an older weeping cherry about 20 to 25 feet tall next door. I have a great view of it out of my kitchen window which is a western exposure. When the sun sets through that weeping cherry in bloom, it lights the tree up from the inside. I feel like Tiffany must have been going for an effect like that.

455. bubbaette - 9/18/1999 1:26:35 PM

Hurricaine update

Looks like Floyd took care of what remained of my veggie garden. Getting 13 inches of rain in less than 24 hours made my tomatoes blow up like pink balloons until they burst their skins. The anaheim peppers were flattened.

I'm going to try lighting about 4 citronella candles and see if I can pull some stuff up without being sucked dry by mesquitos.

456. moonflower - 9/18/1999 1:32:08 PM

Hurricane Floyd. Today I went out and staked a couple of flattened dahlias. They look a bit perkier. Deadheaded somethings that got bent way down and needed some work anyway (i.e. strawflowers). Mowed the lawn so all the leaves that fell could get shredded. Want to
de-Floyd myself as much as possible. Asters looking great!

457. Blaise - 9/18/1999 6:32:32 PM

There's more prose/poetry going on in this thread than over at the poetry thread!

Colorful "gardening" imagery...

458. Uzmakk - 9/18/1999 6:53:06 PM

You know, I post very little on this thread and I don't know why, 'cause I am very much the gardener. I planted a female holly bush today. Only thing I had to do after Floyd was tie up the sunflowers around the bird feeder. He beat the roses up pretty bad, but there are plenty of buds, and within a week they will be spectacular. The lawn--woa baby, we are talking lush.

459. moonflower - 9/19/1999 8:03:39 AM

Lush lawns, indeed! Was out mowing yesterday the Floyd-thickened grass. As a kid I loathed mowing (my dad had the mower waiting for me on Sunday mornings after church--two dull things in a row). But in my own place here, I rather like it. Though my yard usn't big, only takes 30 minutes to do both front and back. Nice to work up a Whitmanic sweat and then survey a clipped world.

460. Uzmakk - 9/19/1999 9:14:28 AM

Where does your garden grow, Moonflower?

462. JudithAtHome - 9/19/1999 11:02:55 AM

No.

463. moonflower - 9/19/1999 2:02:57 PM

Uzmakk and all: my garden grows in southeasten Pennsylvania. We have rather clay-like soil which demands a good workin-in of peat moss.
I like to think of my garden more as a laboratory, always the mad scientist (or in my case, mad poet) concocting new garden surprises. Have a very happy venus flytrap and pitcher plant growing this year. Nobody's told them that this ain't southern Alabama.

464. JudithAtHome - 9/19/1999 2:08:24 PM

moonflower:

I've been meaning to compliment you on your handle; every time I see it, I'm thrown back in memory to the first time I planted moonflowers. It was on a screen-like cover that fronted my porch and on hot Texas evenings, we'd go out there, inhale, and become drunk on the aromas.

465. SnowOwl - 9/19/1999 4:47:58 PM

I love lawn mowing, moonflower. It's exactly the sort of mindless physical task that I find therapeutic. When I'm feeling bad tempered or out of sorts with the world an hour or so with the mower soon puts things right again.

466. moonflower - 9/19/1999 5:12:40 PM

SnowOwl and Judith: This is my first year growing moonflowers--and I guarantee it won't be my last. My partner and I actually watched one open--real life time lapse photography! Usually I get 2-3 blossoms a night. It wants to crawl everywhere. I wonder why more people don't plant them (space considerations?). As for mowing, I am like St. Paul on the road to Damascus (unlikely image choice for me, actually!) in that I used to say I would NEVER mow when I had my own place. Well,
never faded away. And I am glad!

467. ChristiPeters - 9/20/1999 12:52:09 AM

geeeez, am I densa in the gardening department! I didn't even know that there was a real flower called "moonflower"! I thought it was just poetry. I don't live too far from Judithathome in terms of planting zones. Perhaps I will put in some moonflowers when I do my garden. Are they hard for a novice to grow, JudithAH?

As for lawn-mowing - I gratefully pay someone to mow my lawn. If I want something mindless to do so all my cares float away (or are at least out-of-mind for awhile) I swim laps.

468. moonflower - 9/20/1999 6:53:32 AM

Moonflower vines are easy to grow, but they like room. I have a chain-link fence which works well, but any area where they have room to curl would work. Mine's in half sun half shade--technically behind a rose of sharon bush which the moonflower has sent raider tendrils into. I got mine at a nursery (not all nurseries carry them) but they can be started from seed, and I hope I get my own seeds from them this year. The way it has been blooming, I should get many seeds. They are marvelous. Try one.

469. glendajean - 9/20/1999 7:59:52 AM

ChristiP -- I had a friend in Austin who grew moonflowers on his balcony in a tub. The big drawback was it took lots of water. I assume that was because it was in a tub. Judith -- did your plant need extra watering?

Moonflower -- I am afraid I haven't made the grass conversion. In fact, the past two houses where my partner and I have lived, I got rid of all the grass and planted gardens. I like patches of grass offset by borders, but seemed to have totally rejected the American notion of living in a large, grassy park.

470. Uzmakk - 9/20/1999 8:01:32 AM

Actually, Moonflower, I see quite a few moonflowers about.

471. moonflower - 9/20/1999 8:23:00 AM

Hi all. Uzmakk: Lucky you, as I seem to be the only moonflower grower in my area. I was told they are "old fashioned" like sweet peas, which I also grew this year--only 1 has flowered so far. Our horrid heat did not make them happy. Glendajean: I don't mind having some grass, though I'm hardly anal about it. Much prefer converting grass space into garden space. Yesterday, I dug up my allium bulbs for division. One had split in 1/2. Is this bad or will I get two growing bulbs now instead of one? Moved my mini rose--disaster!
Tore the main root, made a mess. Poor thing probably will go to rose heaven.

472. Uzmakk - 9/20/1999 9:25:11 AM

Moonflower:
Zappo. I think you have hit it on the head. I tend to see moonflowers at older houses on the back roads. Large elderly population in my area. Farmstand on my way to Allentown has moonflowers out front.

473. theDiva - 9/20/1999 9:25:46 AM

Good morning, gang.

474. Uzmakk - 9/20/1999 9:31:17 AM

Good morning, Diva. Alas, I must go.

475. theDiva - 9/20/1999 9:34:39 AM

yes, so do I.

Staff meeting in half an hour.

heeeeeellllpppp meeeeeee......

476. glendajean - 9/20/1999 10:18:28 AM

Moonflower -- bulbs split in two on their own. It's how they propagate. Chances are you hurried the process along. Even if you cut the bulb in two, the tissue will possibly start two new, smaller plants. In a couple of seasons, they'll be big and strong again.

Sorry about your roses, but don't despair yet. Cut some of the foilage back so the disturbed roots don't have to work triple time. They need to spend energy getting re-established. Keep the soil moist around it. The worst thing for them now would be extremely warm weather sapping all the energy out of it (and that's not going to happen, he said confidently).

477. theDiva - 9/20/1999 10:27:14 AM

Talk about dodging a bullet.....our staff meeting has been postponed, lalalaaaaaa.....

Glenda, you will be so proud of me. This weekend I totally redid the flower border at the edge of my patio.

The alyssum had completely taken over and smothered my asters. Bah. I pulled up the alyssum....moved the purple coneflower to the center. Then, put lavender on either side. To the left of the left-most lavender, I put dianthus, achillea and veronica. To the right, I put three more dianthus, the smallest of which is a variety called 'brilliant' and has a low growth habit.

So, the border is in shades of pink, purple and white, and forms a sort of vertical triangle shape, if that makes any sense. These are all established plants, too, so I think it'll look nice next spring. I hope.

478. theDiva - 9/20/1999 10:28:34 AM

oh, and please check your e-mail.

479. glendajean - 9/20/1999 10:29:53 AM

Diva, as is appropriate for anything you do, it sounds divine.

If you were transplanting, you might want to cut the foliage down, and be sure and keep the soil moist (see post to Moonflower above).

480. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 10:32:03 AM

Good Morning!

I left an O out of that salutation originally and am sooooo glad I saw it in time; no need tempting fate.

Christi, moonflowers may be old fashioned but they are beautiful and must be easy to grow or I'd have skipped them. They are similar to morning glories except they bloom at night. Their fragrance is heavenly, smells like Coppertone suntan lotion used to smell.

Glendajean: It was long ago in another life when I planted them so I really can't recall how much water they required...I'd have been oblivious to it, anyhow, because we had a well for that sort of thing.

481. ChristiPeters - 9/20/1999 10:47:32 AM

Judith, glendajean, and moonflower -

Thanks! I have a huge backyard with lots of ugly fence. I think I'll encourage some moonflowers to decorate the fence.

On lawns - I grew up in Michigan with the traditional, carefully groomed front and back lawn. When I lived in New Mexico, I was introduced to front lawns "landscaped" with decorative rocks and cactus and minimal back lawns with lots of "patio" and more cactus.

Here's my take on lawns now. Lawns exist for kids (and Moms) to run around barefoot on and wiggle their toes in. Lawns are for the backyard. The front yard is for looks. So I intend to do a lot of landscaping in front with different flowers and layers so there is color for as much of the year as possible and a minimal lawn. In back, I am going to line the yard with flowers and pretty plants, so we can wiggle our toes in the grass while being surrounded by wonderful sights and scents.

482. theDiva - 9/20/1999 10:58:30 AM

Glenda

Yikes! Really? I didn't....is it too late if I do that this evening?

483. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 11:00:28 AM

Christi:

Honeysuckle is great for good-smelling fence cover, too.


Today is my favorite day of the new season: I'm washing and putting away the "summer" bedding and getting my winter stuff ready for the change-over in my bedroom. Even tho we're still using the AC, it feels different at night and besides, a cold front is coming and it's supposed to get down to the 50s tonight and only get up to 75 tomorrow. I am so ready for fall and winter!

484. glendajean - 9/20/1999 11:06:09 AM

Judith -- love those cool nights. I was just thinking about doing the same thing this morning when I was making the bed.

Diva -- you must do it when you get home. Keep it moist and it will be fine. But it may look a bit droopy tonight. (Think of it as a learning experience).

485. ChristiPeters - 9/20/1999 11:06:34 AM

Judith -

YES!!

I am SO looking forward to the "cold front".

486. theDiva - 9/20/1999 11:09:54 AM

wail!

whatta maroon I am! Well, I suppose I can dry all that lovely, lush lavender. Thank you, oh GardenGuru.

487. theDiva - 9/20/1999 11:11:30 AM

I love having the quilts on the beds. Fall is here, lalala, I even saw some leaves changing. Yesterday I made roast chicken with gravy and baked potatoes for dinner.

488. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 11:12:10 AM

Later today I'm going to write about what I watched last night on TV in the proper thread....GJ, it puts Miss America to shame!

489. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 12:26:16 PM

Hi guys! I'm back from vacation now, so naturally I'm swamped at work, but just wanted to tell you a little about my trip. We stayed at this wonderful old victorian mansion in New Hampshire. Had a fireplace in the room, but the room was small. We peaked into another room which seemed to be much nicer, but, with only 14 rooms, they do book quickly. The room rate included a full breakfast and dinner off the menu in the evening. At $73 per person, I thought it was a pretty good deal.

The meals were very good -- too good as I have to knock off a few pounds now! Belgian waffles with bacon and country potatoes, juice and coffee for breakfast. Dinners included veal marsala, prime rib, stuffed haddock or raviolis with shrimp in a pesto/bernaise sauce. They also specialize in pizzas baked in a wood-fired oven which were delicious.

We managed to get the sight-seeing in early in the week as the weather deteriorated thanks to Floyd. We took the cog rail to the top of Mt. Washington and were told we had one of the 4 best days of the entire year up there -- winds fairly calm and clear skies. We hiked a mote along the Appalachian trail up there. We had lunch on the deck at the Mt. Washington Inn -- formerly Bretton Woods. (For those who know economics, it's almost mandatory, being the site where the international monetary system was created by Keynes et. al. at the end of WWII.) We also took the tram ride to the top of Cannon Mt. and hiked the flume in the Franconia notch -- lovely scenary. Day time temps in the 70s, night time temps in the 40s. Nice. Lots to see and do, and if you know what foliage looks like already it was a great time to go -- summer season is over and the foliage has not yet started -- so there were few people everywhere we went.

Now the big problem --where to go next!

490. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 12:32:54 PM

Picture of moonflower here.

491. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 12:34:37 PM

Hi, Thoughtful...welcome home. Your trip sounded great!

492. moonflower - 9/20/1999 12:37:56 PM

Thanks for info on dividing bulbs. I love allium giganteums and am happy to have more "home grown" bulbs. On my chain-link fence, I have my moonflower running but at the corner are 2 sweet peas; one has given me lovely flowers (another old fashioned flower!); then I have a hyacinth bean vine (heaven!!) followed by a morning glory. Needless to say, that part of the fence is a full opera of vines! If a vine is happy, it will love you for good!

493. glendajean - 9/20/1999 12:39:47 PM

Moonflower -- that fence sounds wonderful. What color is the morning glory? Blue?

I saw one this weekend in my neighborhood with big fat blue flowers, a color missing from most plant.

494. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 12:41:53 PM

Has anyone heard of a vine called (I think) Jacobean?

495. Ronski - 9/20/1999 2:21:14 PM

Well, anyway, as I was saying before I was interrupted by those people at Slate, living in the woods is very nice, but...

Over Labor Day weekend, the other half was away and I was puttering around on the deck when I noticed the bear was back, climbing up the hill towards the house. We watched each other cautiously for a while, then, figuring I was not going to chase him away, he got a bit bolder and started foraging through the garbage, which, for once, contained an old food container (usually we keep that kind of stuff inside the house because of the wildlife). He found nothing, then checked out the plants hanging off the deck (scaveola, btw), standing on his hind legs. He thought they might be bird feeders, I'm sure. The scary part was that he leaned against a door, which is how bears open doors (or knock down trees), but fortunately it held.

I went inside for a moment, and then noticed Bruno (he has a name, now) climbing up a large hemlock adjacent to the deck, where there actually are bird feeders. I said, "Whoa! That is going a little bit too far." So I ran out on the deck and said, "Get back down that tree, immediately!" Bruno looked startled. Then he muttered something (I think bear for "bitch") and he climbed down and wandered off.

I now leave feeders on the deck only on weekends when we are home. And next winter, when Bruno is safely asleep.

496. glendajean - 9/20/1999 2:27:17 PM

1) It's so good to see you posting here, Ronski. I've really missed you and I know that goes for the others who hang out in this thread.

2) I assumed that all kinds of stories about life in the woods were happening without our knowledge of them. Please share more.

3) This past month, I spent a week in New Mexico (Santa Fe & Ruidosa). In Ruidosa, it was at a friend's cabin in the mountains. She put out 4 bird feeders and I never saw so many hummingbirds. It was incredible. They drank an entire feeder dry in one day.

4) Who else is going to know the botanical name of everything? Your expertise was sorely missed.

497. Ronski - 9/20/1999 2:34:44 PM

It's nice to be back. And I love Ruidoso! (It's one of the truly great ski towns, btw, and home to the Ski Apache resort.)

498. theDiva - 9/20/1999 2:39:41 PM

BEARS! OH MY!GASP!

499. Ronski - 9/20/1999 2:43:34 PM

Speaking of birds, my partner and I were sitting on the deck yesterday morning and a nuthatch flew full speed into a closed window right in front of us. What a thud!

He fell to a mum plant below, grabbing onto a stem with both feet. Then he seemed to lose consciousness, though still holding on to the plant, just dangling there. I went inside and got a small wooden berry box, and placed the stem and him in it.

Gradually he regained his wits, and eventually, perhaps after five minutes, he flew off. We were very relieved. We're going to hang a bunch of sun-catchers in the window to prevent this from recurring. I realized looking at the window that the bird had seen the reflection of the trees, and thought he was flying through the woods.

500. Ronski - 9/20/1999 2:45:56 PM

As for the bears, I have read that Eastern black bears are afraid of people, and so far that seems to be true for Bruno.

I just don't want him breaking into the house when we're not around.

It has happened to others, where I live.

501. Bubbaette - 9/20/1999 2:47:51 PM

Ronski

It's my understanding that when bears are not afraid of you is the time to become concerned -- they may become aggressive -- start to test the pecking order.

502. theDiva - 9/20/1999 2:48:58 PM

Ronski, I'm thrilled that you're back and none the worse for your close encounter with Bruno.

say, that reminds me of a story......oh, never mind.....

We have all missed you terribly. The cry went up nearly on a daily basis....where is Ronski? Where is he?

503. Ronski - 9/20/1999 3:03:33 PM

In a moment of insanity I once ran drug dealers off my street in Brooklyn, so I am not about to let a measly little bear intimidate me.

Of course, I'd rather our interactions be somewhat limited.

I do fear that since the drought wrecked this summer's natural food supply (very few acorns and black berries, for example), Bruno may get bolder still. I am hoping a predicted reasonable apple crop in the area comes to his aid, and by extension, mine.

Now if I could just do something about the moles, bats, red squirrels, etc., etc.

504. Dusty - 9/20/1999 3:18:55 PM

Welcome back Ronski!!!!

505. SnowOwl - 9/20/1999 3:30:24 PM

Oh yuck, I've woken up today to a miserable morning of rain, sleet and snow. I hate days when I can't spend at least some time in the garden, even if all I do is potter amongst the weeds. You might all be looking forward to cooler weather but I'm more than ready to soak up some sunshine.

I have never seen a moonflower, although I've read about them. I think our climate might be a bit cool for them but I don't really know. I'm going to do some reading to see if they will grow here as they really sound like something any garden must have.

506. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 3:33:06 PM

SnowOwl:

Upthread, Toughtful posted a link to a picture of a moonflower...in my opinion, tho, it's the aroma that is important; they smell divine.

507. Dusty - 9/20/1999 3:37:04 PM

JudithAtHome

Did you mean the Jacobean Lily?

508. Ronski - 9/20/1999 3:55:03 PM

Lovely lily.

I have a moonflower outside the kitchen window. Heavenly scent. Did you know there was a pink variety offered by Burpee many years ago in addition to the usual white? I have not been able to find any of the pink kind in the seed-savers groups, however, so it may be lost to cultivation, a sad thing.

Speaking of white flowers, I have found in recent hikes white forms of both lobelia (cardinal flower, usually bright red) and turtlehead (usually hot pink). These are not unheard of, but are somewhat rare. I've thought that since there is probably radon in the area, perhaps the alba forms were induced by radiation.

I'll be okay though, because the aluminum foil hat I wear protects me from all sorts of sinister forces.

509. glendajean - 9/20/1999 4:02:51 PM

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

510. ChristiPeters - 9/20/1999 4:09:35 PM

Thanks for the link to the moonflowers, Thoughtful. I like them and I am intrigued by how everyone says they have a heavenly scent.

I wonder if they can co-exist with morning glories. I think it would be neat to have them both. When I was growing up, our backyard fence was covered with morning glories.

511. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 4:17:36 PM

glendajean:

You are a riot! Memories are Rather fun, huh?

Dusty:

That lily was beautiful but the plant I'm referring to is a vine with greenish purply leaves that blooms (here) in the fall with purple blossoms and then puts out long purple bean-like pods. I asked someone what they were and they said what sounded to me like "JackoBeans"....???

512. theDiva - 9/20/1999 4:19:17 PM

Christi

They can....I've had both, and it's so lovely to watch the parade of blooms. And they're so easy to grow from seed! If I can do it, anyone can.

513. glendajean - 9/20/1999 4:19:59 PM

That sounds like Hyacinth Bean vine. Are the leaves broad or narrow?

514. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 4:21:21 PM

I think they are more broad...they are a sort of dusty green on one side and purple on the other.

515. glendajean - 9/20/1999 4:42:27 PM

Judith, I couldn't find a picture, but this is from some academic horticultural study on using this plant for marketing as a cut flower. If you want the source, let me know and I'll try to find it:

Hyacinth bean (Dolichos lablab L., Fabaceae) has been a novelty garden plant in the U.S. for generations (Piper 1915; Bailey 1930). This vigorous, twining vine is characterized by large ternate purple-green leaves and purple petioles. The vines produce hundreds of spikes of lavender flowers in late summer followed by long-lasting deep lavender-purple pods. Hyacinth bean, lablab bean, field bean, sem (India) or pig-ears (Chinese, from the leaf shape) is primarily an ornamental annual.
vine in the U.S., but it has been used for centuries in India and China as an edible pod and animal
forage (Singh and Pandita 1980; Saraswat 1986).

516. glendajean - 9/20/1999 4:48:40 PM

This is from the article:

Hyacinth Bean: Stems for the Cut Flower Market
Robert G. Anderson, Sharon Bale, and Wenwei Jia

and it can be found at: http://newcrop.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1996/V3-540.html

517. glendajean - 9/20/1999 4:49:20 PM

I bet this is what you're talking about.

518. Ronski - 9/20/1999 4:50:30 PM

Defintely hyacinth bean. They are also good to plant if you like butterflies, since some will leave their eggs in the seed cases (which must of course be left hanging there through the winter). Another good plant for butterflies is plain old parsely. It is the favorite food of yellow swallowtails.

As for Dan, I worked for him for a couple of years, and have some genuinely fond memories of him. He is a nice guy. And just a wee bit odd. But that has been said of me, as well. Linda Ellerbee called me a space cadet, and she was sober at the time, so I guess she was right.

As for moonflowers and morning glories, if you plant the cultivar of the latter called "Pearly Gates" along with moonflowers, you get white flowers both morning and evening. The morning glories are a bit more aggressive, but they will co-exist.

I'll stop all this blather now. Must be PSS (post-Slate syndrome).

519. glendajean - 9/20/1999 4:54:57 PM

Ronski -- It's a whole new world here. Besides, your blather is always highly informative.

Technically, this baby is top of the line compared to our old forum.

520. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 5:25:54 PM

Welcome Ronski, good to have you back.

Your bear story -- yikes! I've chased deer, but not bears.

Last night I heard a noise out front and thinking it was the cat, went to let him in, but it was our local skunk, helping himself to the bird seed that landed on the ground. A few raps on the window was sufficient for him to move along. Our cat is solid black, and everytime I see the skunk, all I can think of is Pepe LePew! Hope our cat never accidentally gets a stripe of white down his back!

Speaking of butterflies, on our vacation, I was so surprised to see so many butterflies around. I didn't really get too close, but suspect they were Monarchs. I saw them way up in the tops of the mountains and way out in the middle of Lake Winnapasaukee (?) where we were miles from shore. Tough little things, ain't they?

521. glendajean - 9/20/1999 5:29:17 PM

At new botanical garden in Indianapolis (White River Gardens), they had an exhibit of live butterflies in the conservatory. It was really delightful.

522. janjon - 9/20/1999 5:30:46 PM

I have a number of green tomatoes still on the vine and I now fear that green they will always be. Anyone have any good ideas for how to use them which don't involve canning? (My grandmother had a canning machine blow up in her face. I assume that over the years of family history the embellishments of the aftermath on the poor lady have added much gore, but none of her descendents are much into cans, as it were.)

523. ChristiPeters - 9/20/1999 5:34:59 PM

Twice now I have seen a bright green hummingbird come over and hover by our back patio. I think the previous resident must have had a feeder. I'm going to get one and put it up tonight in hopes of luring the hummingbird back.

524. Dusty - 9/20/1999 5:36:50 PM

JudithAtHome

How about this?




More info

525. glendajean - 9/20/1999 5:41:08 PM

Excellent link, dusty.

526. Dusty - 9/20/1999 5:45:05 PM

janjon

Marinated Fried Green Tomatoes

or
Fried Green Tomato Sandwiches

527. JudithAtHome - 9/20/1999 6:02:02 PM

I don't know what happened to my post of thanks to everyone for help with the Hyacinth Bean plant but maybe this one will go thru....a big THANKS!

528. moonflower - 9/20/1999 7:37:01 PM

Oh yes, novelty plant or not, a hyacinth bean is well worth it! My one vine sent up 13 whips with these lovely lavender blossoms that are now madly turning into pods. Didn't know butterflies lay eggs in the pods--will keep the pods in place. Yes, moonflowers and morning glories grow well together, at least on my chain-link fence. I don't know the name of my morning glory but it's kind of a swirl of lavender and white, as if Renoir were having a gay old time mixing up some colors for a great Impressionist painting.

529. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 8:42:44 PM

I stopped planting morning glories years ago in my window box and I still weed them out. There was one that even started growing in our never-watered lawn which survived and bloomed despite the terrible drought here in the Northeast. Tough stuff. I started with the "heavenly blue" but they only lasted the first year-- after that I only had lavender and white.

See here for pictures of morning glories -- lots of pictures so it takes time to download.

530. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 8:45:06 PM

I don't live in a tropical climate but two things I'd definitely have if I did would be bird of paradise and passion flowers -- both look so outer space-ish yet not so ugly like anthuriums. Of course, I need not mention orchids.

531. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 8:48:37 PM

For example:

532. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 8:50:02 PM

The mote is definitely A-1. How exciting to be able to add pictures to illustrate our posts -- fabulous!

533. moonflower - 9/20/1999 8:55:18 PM

Hmmm, in my fantasy garden (and all gardens are fantasies) I would want pink ladyslippers. I see them in spring in the Wisconsin northwoods. They are in the orchid fam, I believe. I never see them for sale; maybe they're somewhat rare. Can't imagine where I'm going to put the plants I'll have to take in when it gets near frost time. I seem unable to "let Nature take its course" and let things go.

534. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 8:58:23 PM

moonflower, the lady slippers in our area are a relative of the orchid and grow wild, but are endangered and it is illegal to molest them around here. Haven't seen one in years, but then again, I don't walk the woods the way I used to. Also, our woods are aging so quickly and changing so much with the deer population that we just don't have the same level of undergrowth that we used to.

535. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 9:02:01 PM

The one's I recall from childhood days were more pink than these, but very similar.

536. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 9:02:41 PM

Hmmm. Try again.

537. Thoughtful - 9/20/1999 9:03:23 PM

Don't know why that won't work, but you can find it and a description here

538. pseudoerasmus - 9/20/1999 9:28:47 PM

Thoughtful, do you still have the duelling fairy tales? If so, please send me a copy at pseudoerasmus@hotmail.com. Thanks.

539. dusty - 9/20/1999 9:48:52 PM

moonflower

As Thoughtful™ mentioned, ladyslippers are protected in some areas, certainly in the northeast. But I remember searching in the woods for them, and finding them on rare occasions.

540. dusty - 9/20/1999 9:50:43 PM

moonflower

As Thoughtful™ mentioned, ladyslippers are protected in some areas, certainly in the northeast. But I remember searching in the woods for them, and finding them on rare occasions.

541. dusty - 9/20/1999 9:51:00 PM

Try again:

542. arkymalarky - 9/20/1999 10:23:01 PM

Hi Ronski!!!

We have passion flowers by the creek. I want to transplant some closer to the house. They are beautiful. I love all the flower pictures in here.

543. glendajean - 9/20/1999 11:00:04 PM

Thoughtful -- we had passion flower vine growing in my parent's home when I was growing up in Waco.

There is also a red passion flower that is pretty stunning.

Another vine that I used to grow was pink coral vine.

544. CalGal - 9/20/1999 11:02:25 PM

Wow. How beautiful. Lovely pictures.

545. Fraaankster - 9/21/1999 2:08:10 AM

Great pics guys! I'd post some of my roses ( My favs, the Tropicana and Double-Delights are still in full bloom ), if I knew how to post pictures. :-(

Glenda,

Thank you for post # 393. I have found the type of tree that I remembered from my childhood; It's a Mulberry tree. The tree farm doesn't have any at the moment, but that's a good thing as it will allow this new lawn I just planted to get started and strong in the meantime. It's perfect. It provides good shade, without oversized fruit that doesn't rot on the ground.



...Which brings to mind, why isn't this type of berry not taken to market such as blue, black, raspberry, straw, et all ???

546. Fraaankster - 9/21/1999 2:11:26 AM

" why isn't this type of berry taken to market..."

( sigh ) Gotta learn to use that dust button.

547. glendajean - 9/21/1999 8:01:27 AM

Fraaank -- I don't know much about mulberry trees except that the ones that have fruit often made a huge mess on sidewalks and the area around them. The berries get smeared and the dye from them is fairly irreversible if it stains your clothes.

And I don't remember mulberrys having any noticable flowering bloom in spring.

How's that for a cranky response?

Because if you have an attachment to the tree and it brings you pleasant thoughts, buy it and plant it. No need even to defend the choice.

548. Dusty - 9/21/1999 8:13:02 AM

Fraaankster

Double Delight for you:

549. DanDillon - 9/21/1999 8:22:46 AM

I had my first piece of pumpkin pie last night. That season is nearly upon us. Not indicated by the assorted orange and brown school room cut-outs in all the stores, but by the chilly overnight air and airline reservations to visit family. For those of you who suppose I'm jumping the autumnal gun, consider this: Thanksgiving is 2 short months away! Soon all discussions of flowers and verdure will turn to talk of flour and gravy.

550. moonflower - 9/21/1999 8:36:15 AM

Hi All: THESE PICTURES ARE THRILLING, every one of them! Thanks. I don't know how to do this yet (am dumb about computers still). As for me, the coming of Thanksgiving will not end my talk or thinking about gardening. It's a 365 day a year joy for me. Some plants blossom best in the imagination anyway. I had heard that pink ladyslippers are endangered and I would never disturb one. How sad that their habitat is under siege by mankind. But to stumble across them in the woods, a real joy. BTW, I have a Tropicana rose blooming now too--and the scent is grand. Right by a dwarf amaryllus.

551. Uzmakk - 9/21/1999 9:06:10 AM

481Christipeters:
I like your philosophy of gardening.

552. Uzmakk - 9/21/1999 9:28:20 AM

Ronski and all:

Welcome back, Ronski. I think bubbaette gives good advice regarding bruno. And as you stated, how things are in the woods because of the drought may effect bruno's attitude towards you. We have bears in our immediate vicinity too.

Somebody posted a picture of a double delight. DD is one of my 9 rose bushes. Forgot the shrub roses, 13 roses. The shrub roses are coming out this fall though I have had them for years now and get compliments on them from all who walk by. I practice "ruthless" gardening. I treat my plants well, and if they give me any trouble, or, if they displease me to a great enough degree, I take my massive grub hoe and rip them mercilessly from the ground. I will admit to a bit of a pang when I do this, but I get over it quickly.

553. bubbaette - 9/21/1999 10:19:09 AM

Good morning chickadees!

We are looking at rain for the next two days to add to the 13 inches we got on Thursday. I have puffball mushrooms growing in my yard.

The climbing roses that I planted/transplanted this spring have been growing like wildfire, except for the one bush that has bloomed all summer, which has hardly grown at all. Some of the canes are more than 6 feet, and I think I'm going to need to add some trellises to the gothic picket fence I was hoping to train them on. Maybe a pergola?

But three of the 4 bushes haven't bloomed at all. They get until next late Spring next year to bloom, or they're outta here.

554. moonflower - 9/21/1999 11:32:17 AM

Rain is falling. Is it a good idea to transplant in the rain? I have a few things I am still getting the courage up to move (i.e. an iris who really needs more sun). Maybe a day like this would be a good choice? And what about planting bulbs? Maybe weather doesn't matter so much. Any thoughts?

555. JudithAtHome - 9/21/1999 11:42:55 AM

I opened the doors this morning and welcomed in a stranger: COOL AIR!!!

556. bubbaette - 9/21/1999 11:42:57 AM

I think you would want to have the ground moist when you transplant.

557. glendajean - 9/21/1999 12:11:23 PM

I avoid much as much as possible digging in the mud. Everything gets mucked up fairly quickly (your tools, your clothes, the plants). If there are any fungi in the soil (or other diseases), it's clinging to your tools will allow it to be spread from plant to plant.

Ideally, you plant or transplant, and then it rains.

This is particularly good for transplanting.

Move your iris quickly. You're almost a month late and it's already forming its flower inside.

558. glendajean - 9/21/1999 12:14:22 PM

Bubbaette -- I grieve for your not flowering climbers. Patience, my sweets, patience. You've said it has enough light and moisture. There is nothing more that you can do (other than prune it in late winter). It will bloom.

The other question on the table is Bubbaette's camilias. They put out a seed pod. Will they sprout into new plants? Any takers?

559. moonflower - 9/21/1999 3:02:43 PM

Okay, I'll wait on transplanting till tomorrow when there's no rain but soil should be nice and soft. HOW does one transplant an iris? Should I get a trowel and kind of pop it up out of the ground or a shovel and just section off the dirst around it and put it in its new spot (which I haven't selected yet. I don't like moving things, though my friend Margaret does this regularly and with great success.

560. Ronski - 9/21/1999 3:27:41 PM

The white and lavendar morning glory mentioned earlier is probably the cultivar "Flying Saucers," or at least it sounds like it. It's very nice.

As for lady slippers, the most common native lady slipper orchid is the mocassin flower, also known as the pink lady slipper, or cypripedium acaule. "Acaule" refers to the fact that the stem rises from the two leaves and has no leaves on it.

We have some on our property. They prefer evergreen woods (hemlock, pine, etc.) and acid soil. They also depend to a certain extent on a fungus which lives in their native soil. Additionally, they are slow to reproduce themselves, because of their peculiar relationship with their pollinator, the bee.

They are one of those flowers that trick the insect into pollinating, giving the creature little in return for its efforts. The bee is led into the pouch, and can only escape one way, where it deposits any pollen it has acquired. Bees apparently hate this, and learn to avoid lady slippers, so the plant can only be pollinated by "naive bees."

If I were to find a "jpg" picture, I would post it, but so far have had no luck. Too bad, because they are very pretty. Due to new technology, cypripediums (...pedia?), including North American and Asian native species and several hyprids, are now being offered retail to gardeners by special growers. But they are still very expensive, and difficult to grow without the right conditions. It helps to live in the woods.

561. glendajean - 9/21/1999 3:31:41 PM

Moonflower -- (assuming we're talking about bearded irises) try and get as much as the dirt around the roots as possible.

If it was a month earlier and it needed to be divided, you would have cut the rhizome between new growth and old growth and have two plants. That's usually done in August.

For now, I would keep it intact. Never bury the rhizome, but leave a quarter to half of the top of the rhizome exposed to the air. Iris rhizomes hate sitting in water, so make sure the soil is well-drained.

Cut the plant foilage in half. It will put out new growth as it settles in.

562. glendajean - 9/21/1999 3:32:57 PM

For more Iris info, check out the American Iris Society at:

http://www.irises.org/default.htm

563. ChristiPeters - 9/21/1999 3:37:41 PM

glendajean - thanks for the link. I want to put irises in my garden

564. dusty - 9/21/1999 4:01:47 PM

Ronski


If I were to find a "jpg" picture, I would post it, but so far have had no luck.

Check out my post 541

565. bubbaette - 9/21/1999 4:29:59 PM

Glenda

Two of my camilias have "fruit" so heavy they're weighing the branches down. Are these seed pods? How to plant them? I've found nothing in my gardening books or on the web. They are definately not buds since most are also putting on buds now.

566. Ronski - 9/21/1999 4:36:17 PM

dusty,

Beautiful photo indeed! That's a cypripedium reginae, or showy lady's slipper, which is similar to my cypripedium acaule. I'd like to post of photo of the latter to illustrate the difference. Acaule is smaller, with a darker pink pouch, but the major difference is the petals are not full and white, but very slender, twisted like a swizzle stick, and a maroon brown. I'll keep looking for one.

It is really nice to back here with youze guys, as they say in Brooklyn.

567. glendajean - 9/21/1999 5:22:45 PM

Bubbaette -- as I said earlier, your question is on the table. Does anybody have some working knowledge of camelias and can you answer her question?

ChristiPeters -- YOU SHOULD have irises in your garden. Beautiful bearded ones. Old fashioned flags (yellow, white, purple). I love the sculptural look of them year round, and the flower, so short in its appearance among us, is always a knockout. The late Henry Mitchell suggested taking a day off and contemplating the lovely bearded iris bloom.

Recently I was at the Georgia O'Keeffe museum in Santa Fe and there was a room full of her large, blown-up flower paintings. The exhibit quoted her as saying that we are all too busy to see flowers and she was going to get us to stop and look at them. A worthy sentiment.

568. glendajean - 9/21/1999 5:23:15 PM

Ronski -- please don't abandon us again.

569. Ronski - 9/21/1999 5:28:58 PM

Never.

And I want to say that I've added some Louisiana Iris to my garden, and hope to see blooms next June. They are derived from a native species, mostly found in the South and Midwest, whose common name is "red iris." They are indeed the reddest iris found in the wild.

570. SnowOwl - 9/21/1999 5:35:34 PM

Bubbaette, I've got a couple of camellias but I've never seen them develop seed pods like you describe. I'd be interested to hear what you find out about them. I suppose you could try saving the seed and seeing if you can sprout it, and in the meantime I'll have a look through some of my gardening books and see what I can come up with. My own camellias are almost ready to flower. This will be the last year for one of them, it's getting the royal order of the boot after it's flowered as it is in the wrong place and it's simply too big for me to move.

Don't worry about your climbing roses, most of them need a couple of years at least to settle in before they really start producing flowers. I planted Mermaid, which is reputed to be a really prolific climber 4 years ago and was very disappointed with her performance until last year when she gave me the most beautiful display all summer.

I've got Dutch irises almost ready to flower now. I don't have too much success with the rhizomatous bearded types, my soil tends to be boggy and I'm not such a dedicated gardener that I create special habitats for plants. I do have a couple of bearded irises in the dry spots under the eaves of the house and they do okay there, although I think they're desperately in need of splitting up and replanting.

571. glendajean - 9/21/1999 5:39:49 PM

Snow Owl, re: her climbing roses.

I hope she listens to you. She's not hearing it from me. :)

572. SnowOwl - 9/21/1999 5:46:16 PM

Maybe between the two of us we can hammer it into her head. I've been very tempted to shovel prune a climbing Iceberg that hasn't yet done anything for me, but I'll give it a couple more years at least before I do anything too drastic. My biggest problem is that there are so many roses I want and I have so little room left for planting them that the ones I do have are under threat if they don't do well for me. They seem to know that, every one I've ever spoken to severely has responded nicely.

573. Ronski - 9/21/1999 5:59:09 PM

Snow Owl,

With boggy soil you would do well with Iris pseudacorus (sp?), or yellow flag, an Old World species that has naturalized in the U.S. It loves wet feet. Also, the North Amerian blue flag, and Japanese Iris. Bearded iris (german iris) would indeed rot.

I never have too much luck with Dutch Iris; they sometimes send out leaves in the fall and then do nothing in the spring. Even if they bloom in the spring, they rarely winter over again and bloom a second time. Something about the climate in the Northeast that they are not crazy about. Though all the local stores sell them in the fall.

574. moonflower - 9/21/1999 6:14:47 PM

All this info is wonderful--thanks all, esp. on ladyslippers and on iris. I've heard of iris that rebloom in fall but have none. Are they worth getting? Would it be too late, here in late Sept., to divide an iris--or would it wreck any chance of its reblooming? And one final question. I have a sweet pea that was in a too-hot location but now is a rather nice 6 inches high plant. Can I dig it up and take it in for the winter after Halloween or should I let it stay
and let it be? It's a perennial variety, I think, but I'm not sure.

575. SnowOwl - 9/21/1999 6:15:25 PM

Ronski,

Thanks for the information. I bought a couple of Japanese irises just a week or so ago and I've got high hopes for them. A friend sent me seed of the North American blue flag, but I have no idea whether they would grow from seed. Do you know if I could get them started?

576. Thoughtful - 9/21/1999 7:55:32 PM

Egad, sweet pea? Dig up? Not in my neck of the woods -- I dare you to try. We had them in the back of our house and I tried to dig them up but back they came. Then we had curtain draining put in around the house -- I'm talking heavy shoveling with a back hoe down 6' or more.

Yup, I'm still weeding them buggers out.

577. ScottLoar - 9/21/1999 8:14:48 PM

Iris are lovely yet attract some damned grub which attacks the bulb, the only solution is to dig up the iris and discard it. So, our iris in clumps have mostly been removed. Sad, actually.

581. moonflower - 9/21/1999 10:45:54 PM

Scott, OUCH--how sad to "discard" iris but sometimes it's necessary. And Thoughtful, did not know sweet peas were quite so tenacious. The one I'm speaking of never bloomed, is still adolescent at best. I am NOT good at letting go of the garden. I want to take the whole thing indoors and not lose a single plant. This is not Nature's way. I say this, yet I find great comfort in winter. Still, come January, you'll find me looking for unlikely sprouts.

582. glendajean - 9/22/1999 11:33:21 AM

Scott is right. There is a certain borer (?) that infests Irises, and once it takes over, you've lost the plant.

Moonbeam, irises should be divided a month or so after they bloom. Any later, and you risk them not blooming again till a year from the next spring. Just moving them is less risky. So it's your call.

583. glendajean - 9/22/1999 11:40:01 AM

Moving. Uggh!

Thanks to Judith and Thoughtful's encouragement, I had already cleaned out my clothes closet back a couple of months ago.

Now we're going through each room, cleaning and getting rid of all that stuff one should have never ever kept.

Our plan is that this process will take about a week (work a little in the morning, a little in the evening, with catch-up on the weekend). Then it's a final cleaning and calling the realtor in to talk about selling the house. There will have to be some repairs, but the way the market is going in DC, we want a second opinion on how much.

At this point in my life, I would have thought that I had learned the lessons that pop up each time (a) why wait to move to organize and (b)why wait to move to make certain repairs? Of course, we have kept up with lots of repairs, and we are better organized than we used to be. Still, maybe we should schedule move drills once a year.

584. theDiva - 9/22/1999 11:41:42 AM

Did you see the piece in the Style section a few Sundays back? The one about that yuppie couple buying a house on the Hill? Pretty wild stuff.

585. glendajean - 9/22/1999 11:42:37 AM

No, I was out most of the past month traveling. What was the gist of the story?

586. theDiva - 9/22/1999 11:51:04 AM

Essentially, it's a seller's market. These two went through all these gyrations, soul-searching and anxiety before buying a house for $50K above their original maximum price.

587. Bubbaette - 9/22/1999 11:58:39 AM

I still have boxes in my attic that haven't been unpacked since the move before last.

588. JudithAtHome - 9/22/1999 12:08:05 PM

Bubbaette:

Then you should donate them, unopened, to the Goodwill because they obviously contain nothing you use or even miss. That's my theory...if I haven't even bothered to miss it, it's not worth the space it's taking up. (Of course, this doesn't apply to old photos, baby clothes, mementos from Girl Scout Camp (ha), or your moms recipe file.)

589. Thoughtful - 9/22/1999 12:15:24 PM

Glenda, good for you. Nothing feels quite so good as opening a door and finding a clean closet. I'm always amazed at how little effort it seems to take to bring the stuff into the house, and how quickly it accumulates. To take it out is such a chore!

This year I made a rule that I couldn't buy a new blouse unless I first got rid of one. Worked really well --



--until the first shopping trip! Sigh.

I've inspired my Mom as well who has taken over the upstairs since us kids moved out and has several closets and dressers to clean out as a result. She's had bags full of stuff to take to the local charity -- that's after thoughtful's been through it to "recycle" the good stuff.

590. Dusty - 9/22/1999 12:22:07 PM

Ronski

This should be cypripedium acaule:

591. Thoughtful - 9/22/1999 12:24:29 PM

Dusty -- that's it -- that's the lady slippers I remember of yore.

Ah. Lovely. And I do remember learning about how the bees have to go in and can only get out through the top, fertilizing the plant in the process. So nice to know some of the stuff they told you about the birds & bees when you were young was accurate!

592. Ronski - 9/22/1999 12:25:21 PM

dusty,

That sure looks like acaule to me. Thanks. Pretty, no? I like the contrast between the mahogany petals and pink pouch. It is also pretty while still in bud, when the pouch is still white and the petals green. There is a rare alba form, with a white pouch even when fully developed.

593. Ronski - 9/22/1999 12:27:49 PM

Snow Owl,

I'll try to find info on sprouting blue flag. They probably need both cool temperatures followed by some warmth and moisture to germinate, but I'll check.

594. Dusty - 9/22/1999 12:28:25 PM

Ronski

Hmmm, that picture doesn't seem to want to load. Here's another try:
This should be cypripedium acaule:

595. Ronski - 9/22/1999 12:28:25 PM

Snow Owl,

I'll try to find info on sprouting blue flag. They probably need both cool temperatures followed by some warmth and moisture to germinate, but I'll check.

596. Ronski - 9/22/1999 12:29:53 PM

Snow Owl,

I'll try to find info on sprouting blue flag. My guess is they need cool temperatures and moisture followed by some warmth to germinate, but I'll check.

597. moonflower - 9/22/1999 12:30:16 PM

The pink ladyslipper (exquisite!)seems to like to grow in groups when I've seen it in the wild. As far as moving this iris, even it doesn't bloom this year, I'm no worse off as this thing sends up the green swordlike leaves but no blossoms. I have a gorgeous apricot-colored one which needs staking but really makes June special. Another simple but effective plant: gazanias--do others grow them?

598. Ronski - 9/22/1999 12:31:39 PM

Sorry for the double post. I'm still finding gremlins.

599. Ronski - 9/22/1999 12:35:23 PM

I find gazania is good for sunny dry spots, though you can't let the rootball dry out completely. My Mom is very fond of them, as it happens.

A similar drought-loving plant can be found in seed catalogs sometimes, and is called "monarch of the Veldt," from South Africa as the name implies. It does as well as portulacas in dry conditions, but has larger, daisy-like flowers in white or pale yellow.

600. Thoughtful - 9/22/1999 12:46:35 PM

The NYTimes & Martha Stewart (the person I love to hate most) were going on about epimediums as a much better ground cover than pachysandra. Any experience anyone?

601. Ronski - 9/22/1999 1:15:24 PM

I love epimediums.

They have beautiful arrow-shaped leaves that seem to hover over the ground. The leaves turn lovely colors in the fall, and the plants come with very small but pretty columbine-like flowers in white, yellow, pink or red, depending on the variety.

Altogether a different effect from pachysandra. They are also more expensive, however, and they disappear entirely for the winter in cold climates, whereas pachysandra hangs about a bit, having some slight evergreen tendencies.

I'd go with pachysandra, if you must, for large areas. But with epimediums for beauty. They also do well in dry shade, one of the most difficult conditions for gardening.

602. Ronski - 9/22/1999 1:23:51 PM

Time for a brief rant, even though this is not the Politics Thread.

As some of you may remember from the Fray, I am trying to keep non-native species close to my house, and plant with true native varieties elsewhere on the property. I even have plans to propose some reintroduction of native species on adjacent publicy-owned land, some of which has been overrun by aliens such as purple loosestrife. And we have the added problem that the dominant evergreen, which makes the area so pretty -- Eastern Hemlock -- is being assaulted by the wooly (or pine) adelgid. So I figured that even though the adelgid attacked other evergreens as well, it wouldn't hurt to reintroduce some white pine (we have some of that around) and the local spruce, which is red spruce, or Picea rubens. Do you think any nursery in North America carries the most dominant spruce species? No! Some have even said to me that it is ugly. The noive!
Market failure? Well, probably not, since there is apparently no demand for it, except from me. But still. Hhhrruummphh.

603. Dusty - 9/22/1999 1:23:57 PM

monarch of the Veldt

604. Ronski - 9/22/1999 1:26:51 PM

Dusty,

You are a marvel!

Indeed, how about "Marvel-of-Peru" also known as "Four O'clocks?"

605. Dusty - 9/22/1999 1:36:18 PM

Ronski, did you check out this place?

Based upon this page it suggests they carry red spruce, although they are a wholesaler, and may not sell to you.

606. Dusty - 9/22/1999 1:42:33 PM

Mirabilis jalapa--Four O'Clock

607. Ronski - 9/22/1999 1:45:02 PM

Dusty,

Thanks for the tip. I had skipped places that only sold wholesale, but I could ask a local nursery to order from them for me, I suppose.

The red spruce they have is interesting. Of course, it is a dwarf, and therefore an ornamental. I'll still be looking for the native, full-size variety (I have ten acres, and want the place to continue to look natural).

From Musser's, in Indiana, Pennsylvania, I can get white pine seedlings, which are native, and also red pine, white spruce, and balsam fir, which are all either native or very close to native, showing up in isolated stands in the lower Catskills, about an hour north of where I live. But still no red spruce (full-size). Go figure.

608. Dusty - 9/22/1999 1:46:26 PM

Mirabilis jalapa--Four O'Clock

here is a yellow version:

609. Dusty - 9/22/1999 1:52:46 PM

Ronski


I found another site that mentioned growing from seeds. If that out of the question?
(I ask innocently, as my gardening kills are non-existent)

610. Ronski - 9/22/1999 1:54:54 PM

Red spruce has a close cousin, incidentally, called Black spruce, with which it often hybridizes in nature, especially in Michigan for some reason. But no black spruce is to be had, either, commercially.

I have three Norway spruce (originally from Norway) from a Brooklyn nursery that I am presently planting near the house. They are very pretty. You can tell them easily when they are large enough to bear cones, which are much larger than those of the native spruces.

There is also a Jack pine, which is native to the Northeast, and Norway pine, which unlike the Norway spruce, is not from Europe, but which got its name by being identified in Norway, Maine.

Musser's also now has pinon pine, which I want to plant near the house or in a container of the deck, to remind me of New Mexico, where it is a beautiful sight growing against the red earth.

611. Ronski - 9/22/1999 1:59:05 PM

Speaking of four-o'clocks, they are very easy to grow from seed, and yet also make tubers that can be lifted like dahlias. They reseed readily, but if the tubers are left in the ground close to the foundation of a house, they may winter over and make huge plants the following year. I've seen them growing in concrete planters adjacent to the fronts of apartment buildings in New York City.

612. Ronski - 9/22/1999 2:04:47 PM

Growing everything from seed is possible. Some people are addicted to it, even when they can get the same plant from a nursery easily. There is a great feeling of accomplishment starting something from seed.

The Park's catalog, about twenty years ago, listed a dwarf geranium seed, "Little Reed's Mix," which I ordered. They sent five seeds, and one or two of the seeds sprouted for me. I still have the plant, in an old McCoy pottery planter (white), in its fourth home now, and it is still only eight inches tall, with bright salmon flowers. It looks a bit liked a gnarled bonsai.

About that time I also grew some cineraria and plumbago from seed. The cineraria loved the fact that in those days we had cold, drafty windows facing due south: cool temperatures, but lots of light.

613. IdiotWind - 9/22/1999 2:08:55 PM

Autumn is my favorite time of the year. Especially, early to mid October. The leaves are starting to fall and the evenings are cold but it still feels like summer in the afternoons.

I miss the burning of oak and maple leaves. I still can remember that sweet smell of so-called pollution. Now, all the leaves are put into expensive paper bags and sent to the dump. What a waste.

And there was nothing better than hearing the horns of cars on Saturday afternoons telling us that our local high school team had won their football game.

614. Ronski - 9/22/1999 2:09:30 PM

The problem is that some seeds are very slow to germinate, or have absurdly low germination rates, so one can always expect bouts of failure with this hobby. Makes the success all the sweeter. And some seeds, especially trees and the like, need a season of freezing and thawing to sprout. Some need light, some need darkness, some have very narrow temperature ranges for germination. What you are doing when you sow these things is trying to recreate their natural environment, which is often very hard, especially indoors. And if you do it outdoors, the elements and critters can get 'em. Most nurseries, of course, that sprout seed do so in greenhouses.

615. Ronski - 9/22/1999 2:12:09 PM

IdiotWind,

I have the same wonderful memories. Except that I played on the team, and our three-year season record was 2 and 22, so I heard few horns. Unless I drove to the appropriate neighboring town.

616. ChristiPeters - 9/22/1999 2:13:26 PM

Question for you experienced gardeners here -

The leaves on my big peach tree are turning sort-of purple. Are they supposed to do that?

617. Thoughtful - 9/22/1999 2:18:50 PM

Ronski, have you checked with the Arbor Day Foundation? We belong and they send us catalogs every year -- along with what seems like 100,000 address labels!

Also you might check with your local ag extension service. I know my Dad planted his place like crazy with spruce tree seedlings which we used every year for Xmas trees -- no wonder no one wanted to put the lights on the tree, YOUCH! -- which I believe he got from them. He gave us a bunch when we first bought our house too. You used to be able to get something like 100 seedlings for $10 or something. Knowing Dad, he sure didn't spend a lot of money for it!

618. Ronski - 9/22/1999 2:27:11 PM

Thoughtful,

Thanks. I know they offer a different spruce than what I'm looking for in their development mailings, but maybe if I call them up directly they can help me.

Christi,

As long as they are not curling up and puckering like seersucker, you're probably okay; it may be early foliage change, due to the drought (though I think peach leaves turn yellow, not purple, normally). But if the former, you have peach curl disease. Or rather your tree does. It is not immediately fatal, though it weakens the tree, and eventually it can kill it if unchecked. I think it is a fungus. Anyway, your nursery could give you a spray for it, so you might bring them some leaves to diagnose.

619. glendajean - 9/22/1999 4:39:38 PM

But put the leaves in a zip-locked plastic bag. Nurseries get very jumpy when people bring diseased leaves into their stores.

620. glendajean - 9/22/1999 4:41:05 PM

Ronski -- Planting on ten acres sounds wonderful and very 18th century. You can design your own park.

The place I stayed in New Mexico was covered in Pinion Pines. Lovely tree, and an interesting shape for a pine.

621. ChristiPeters - 9/22/1999 4:42:41 PM

Ronski -

They don't look puckered to me, but I think I'll pluck a leaf and take it to the local nursery (in a zip-locked bag) and ask them.

Thanks. I've never had fruit trees before, these came with the house.

622. moonflower - 9/22/1999 6:30:57 PM

Dusty (and all)--THANKS for gorgeous pics of 4 o'clocks. I have both varieties shown, prefer the purplish ones. Last year they were spindly and not much blooming. I started them downstairs under my lamps this year, and they really came on strong, still going as a matter of fact. I have them hugging the house in a raised bed, so I guess it's safe to leave them there. I want them back for sure. I have a lovely variety of portulaca this year--offwhite on the outside by with soft bluish line/swirls inside. Hope they return!

623. dusty - 9/22/1999 6:57:40 PM

Here's a portulaca, but I didn't find one with the colors you mentioned. Do you know which variety?

624. arkymalarky - 9/22/1999 8:34:36 PM

Love the four o'clock pictures! We have yellow ones that Bob planted when he was a boy. They were huge last year, but this past summer they were hardly there at all.

"Speaking of four-o'clocks, they are very easy to grow from seed, and yet also make tubers that can be lifted like dahlias. They reseed readily, but if the tubers are left in the ground close to the foundation of a house, they may winter over and make huge plants the following year. I've seen them growing in concrete planters adjacent to the fronts of apartment buildings in New York City."

Sounds like our experience. These are by the foundation (gone now) of the house that we lived in before we built ours. I'm afraid that the house being gone might be the problem. I guess we need to take seeds next year (hoping we have some) and plant next to the house?

625. SnowOwl - 9/22/1999 10:25:17 PM

I've had a real gardening thrill today. Several years ago I planted a daphne bush which has never done anything but sit looking weak and sickly. Every year I've tossed up whether or not to get rid of it, and every year I've decided to keep it for "just one more year" in the folorn hope it would show some signs of vigour. Today I was working near the area it is planted when I suddenly smelt a beautiful scent and turned around to find the bush has several flowers. It still doesn't look particularly healthy, but the fact that it's flowered has
given me great hope.

I love daphnes because I associate them with childhood. My parents had several bushes planted around the back yard and their fragrance filled the whole yard. Smelling my own bush today took me right back through the years to those days of endless summer again.

626. moonflower - 9/23/1999 7:55:28 AM

SnowOwl--I love those garden surprises, the things that aren't expected to bloom and suddenly--voila!--there it is. I have a varigated jacob's ladder I stuck out back by my tropicana rose
and it was rather small and blank looking. But what do I see today but the "whips" on which the tiny flowers come. The September-October garden seems to like to give these bonuses. Maybe it's a last hurrah or just relief that the too-hot summer is cooling.

627. glendajean - 9/23/1999 10:25:52 AM

Portulaca is an annual, so unless you pull a couple of twigs and overwinter them in the house, they'll die come winter. No great loss, because they aren't that expensive to replace next year. They take heat and drought well, btw.

Snow Owl -- I don't have a clue what daphne is. Please share (as well as anybody else who does know).

628. Dusty - 9/23/1999 10:41:03 AM

Daphne bush


Closeup of flower

629. glendajean - 9/23/1999 10:42:52 AM

Thanks Dusty. Given my technical ineptitude, we would never see any of these lovely pictures if you didn't post them. I hope you keep illustrating our thread.

630. Dusty - 9/23/1999 10:45:05 AM

The post above shows the SPRING daphne

Winter Daphne bush




Closeup of flower

631. Dusty - 9/23/1999 10:46:15 AM

glendajean

Glad to hear it.

I was hoping it wouldn't be viewed as clutter. I can't garden worth a damn, but I can contribute in other ways.

632. JudithAtHome - 9/23/1999 11:06:25 AM

I think we have the most beautiful thread in the Mote! You guys are wonderful to share all these lovely flowers with us. And just look at all the posts! This place is lively...

I have a sad bit to tell: I lost my 8 year old draecena marginata yesterday; technically, it is still in the throes of death but it's a goner, I'm certain.

I have a wall of bookcases in my living room which are stacked in weird and esoteric ways and one section held this draecena. It had 2 trunks and had contorted in all sorts of interesting ways because I would turn it to face the light at different times during the past 8 years so it was quite spectacularly twisted and hung over this little "tableau" I had arranged on the next shelf over. I had a dried fungus from a tree in Michigan which I bought at a flea market; it looked like a rising sun. I put it at the back of the shelf and had this little arrangment of Chinese mud men (2) sitting at this little mud table which had a small cage with a mud bird in it on top. The entire mud group is only about 4 inches long and 2 inches tall. But it looked so serene, with the draecena fronds draping over it like a willow tree...and the weird tree fungus looked like the sun rising over the table with the little old men.

I guess I'll get a new plant but it will take quite a while for me to feel any fondness for it; the croaked one was so perfect! By the way, if you forget whether you've watered a plant, don't water it for a few more days or stick your finger in the dirt to check first. Don't just blithely assume you know it needs water or you'll wake up like I did with your draecena marginata resembling cooked aspargus. RIP....

633. Dusty - 9/23/1999 1:53:29 PM

draecena marginata

634. moonflower - 9/23/1999 2:59:48 PM

Hi, I posted something earlier but it got lost in cyberland, I guess. Anyway, Judithathome, sorry to hear about the draecena. I lost a fave astile last year and whenever I see where it was I remember how it had looked. As I recall it broke dormency, a killer frost came, and it never recovered. Dusty, thanks for all your wonderful pictures! On this thread, we get words and movies!

635. Ronski - 9/23/1999 3:57:49 PM

Bluish portulaca? Are you sure it is portulaca? Because that species, also called moss rose, tends to the warm side of the spectrum: red, orange, yellow, white and pink, with some variegated forms. There is also a cousin, sometimes called portulaca as well, that is likewise annual but has a trailing quality and is widely sold now in hanging baskets in the spring. It is not quite as drought resistant as the regular kind (though it looks like it would be moreso, since it is even more clearly a succulent), and it has some very firey colors, blends of red and orange, and also a variegated white/pink. But never a true lavender or blue. Could yours be nemophilia or omphioidies (sp.?) or somethin'?

I have a wicker table (always warps in the rain) on which I keep my cactus collection outside on the deck (until frost). In an old Mexican orchid pot (I killed the orchid, I confess), I have an orange portulaca plant -- just one --whose flowers compliment the terra cotta of the surrounding cactus pots. I'm saving the seed. I put portulaca in any dry place I have, old planters, and also where I am likely to skimp on watering due to time constraints or laziness.

636. SnowOwl - 9/23/1999 4:13:25 PM

Dusty,

Thanks so much for finding and posting all the pictures. They make this thread a real treat to read.

Glendajean,

Daphne is a small shrub, native to China, and is one of the most highly fragrant garden plants available. The flowers are actually quite insignificant but just one bush can perfume the whole garden. They like similar conditions to rhododendrons, although in the area I live they need a bit more sunshine than most rhodies.

637. glendajean - 9/23/1999 4:29:11 PM

Snow Owl -- sounds like I must have one. I wonder if they'll grow in the midwest?

638. bubbaette - 9/23/1999 4:37:21 PM

Hot diggity -- my bulbs have arrived. I've been conservative this year: 60 daffodils, 60 crocuses, 25 tulips and 12 giant hycinth.

There's a 2 ft. strip of grass between a low stone retaining wall and a sidewalk about 45 ft long. I'm thinking of making a bed out of the whole strip and then planting some kind of low shrub on the bank btwn the sidewalk and the street. But I'm thinking that I might just start at either end and work toward the middle for the next few years.

Should I kill the grass first with black plastic before I put the beds in?

639. Dusty - 9/23/1999 4:38:01 PM

nemophilia

640. SnowOwl - 9/23/1999 4:38:02 PM

Glendajean

This is from the Time Life Encyclopaedia of Plants. I've got no idea about the American zone system, but you'll know if the midwest is suitable.

Winter daphne is hardy in Zones 7-10. It grows best in partial shade but tolerates sun in cool and coastal areas. It thrives in moist, well-drained soil. In frost Zone 7, plant the shrubs in spring or early fall; elsewhere, plant them at any time. To keep the soil moist and cool, provide a permanent mulch, 2 to 4 inches deep, of wood chips, chunky peat moss or ground bark. In spring, scatter cottonseed meal or rhododendron-azalea-camellia fertilizer beneath plants; if the soil is acid, add ground limestone. Winter daphnes are difficult to transplant except when very small and container grown. Prune after spring flowering. Propagate from cuttings of mature growth taken in late spring or early summer.

There are a number of varieties, but the winter Daphne, Daphne Odora is the one with the best fragrance.

641. SnowOwl - 9/23/1999 4:40:09 PM

Dusty,

Are you a mindreader? I'm sitting here with a packet of nemophilia seeds in my hand, trying to decide whether I should start them inside or risk just throwing the seeds around the garden and hoping for the best.

642. vonKreedon - 9/23/1999 4:45:17 PM

Anyone familiar with hardwood trees? I'm looking to plant a fall color tree that will grow to be large. I would like an oak, but am not sure of the requirements for oaks. The space gets solid morning/mid-day sun and sits down hill from a vernal spring.

643. Dusty - 9/23/1999 4:47:25 PM

I cannot find omphioidies

Do you mean Omphalodes?

644. Ronski - 9/23/1999 4:50:10 PM

Dusty,

Yes. I thought I had it wrong. It is lavender-blue and white, I believe.

645. Ronski - 9/23/1999 4:53:45 PM

vonKreedon,

Some oaks like water better than others. I will look it up tonight and report back. The best fall color in oaks comes from the Scarlet Oak, followed by the Red Oak.

For best fall color in hardwoods, the red maple is king (acer rubrum, NOT Japanese maple), followed by sugar maple.

For sopping up excess water, plant willow trees. They can dry out basements!

646. Dusty - 9/23/1999 5:04:35 PM

I cannot find omphioidies

Do you mean Omphalodes?

647. Dusty - 9/23/1999 5:05:20 PM

Sorry about the duplicate.

648. Dusty - 9/23/1999 5:06:18 PM

Omphalodes cappadocica 'Lilac Mist'

649. Planet 9 - 9/23/1999 6:49:39 PM

Von K; Oaks are beautiful trees and the right ones have great color but I agree with Ronski, if you want spectacular color go with the red maple of sugar maple. One thing about oaks is that they are not especially fast growers. If you want shade you must either plant a fairly large tree (big tree = big$$) or be very patient. Willows are excellent in wet areas and grow fairly quickly but the fall color is a bit tepid IMO.

650. vonKreedon - 9/23/1999 6:55:49 PM

Ron/9 - Thanks, look forward to the information. We already have a large Willow growing uphill from the vernal spring. I am looking for color and am thinking long term, I expect to be in this house the rest of my life.

651. Planet 9 - 9/23/1999 6:58:18 PM

Good news from my Bay Area garden. My bouganvilla (I only grow the stuff I don't spell it) is back!!! You may recall that my b-plant has had a couple of tough winters, drown by EL Nino rains one year then frosted by the La Nina freeze the next. But with careful tending it has survived. It was touch and go there for awhile but it is now strong enough and grown out to the point that I am able to startr training it to grow along my back fence again. I don't expect too much blossom action this year but, barring another hard winter, I think I will be in for some beautiful stuff next year.

Now I can begin to deal with some die back on my lilac tree (yes I have a real lilac just like in the east growing in the Bay Area, I got some micro-climate here!)

652. moonflower - 9/23/1999 9:04:30 PM

Hi Planet 9 & all: I have a bougainvillea too and I know I'll have to take it in for the winter (I live in Pennsylvania). Last year I left a purple one outdoors and it died. Are bougainvillea poisonous for cats? When I take plants indoors, my 2 cats seem to like to munch on various leaves. Hey Dusty, any pics of jacob's ladders for us?

653. Thoughtful - 9/23/1999 9:14:19 PM

Judithah, sorry to hear about your plant. The arrangement sounded lovely. Another trick to test to see if your plants need water is to lift the pot. A water-logged pot is a lot heavier than a dry one.

VonK, I agree to go with maples. Our oak leaves turn to a namby-pamby shade of brown. The only good thing is they tend to retain a lot of leaves into the winter which I find more interesting. Most interesting in our winter woods to me though -- and I don't have any at home and would like to plant them -- is the beech trees whose leaves turn a lovely shade of beige similar to this: against a silvery gray bark and a lot of the leaves stay all winter adding a speck of life to an otherwise drab view.

654. Thoughtful - 9/23/1999 9:14:47 PM

Judithah, sorry to hear about your plant. The arrangement sounded lovely. Another trick to test to see if your plants need water is to lift the pot. A water-logged pot is a lot heavier than a dry one.

VonK, I agree to go with maples. Our oak leaves turn to a namby-pamby shade of brown. The only good thing is they tend to retain a lot of leaves into the winter which I find more interesting. Most interesting in our winter woods to me though -- and I don't have any at home and would like to plant them -- is the beech trees whose leaves turn a lovely shade of beige similar to this: against a silvery gray bark and a lot of the leaves stay all winter adding a speck of life to an otherwise drab view.

655. Thoughtful - 9/23/1999 9:21:36 PM

Great twice posted, no image. Rats. Let me try again. Color like this.

656. Thoughtful - 9/23/1999 9:28:18 PM

To see some fall leaves, check here.

657. bubbaette - 9/23/1999 9:33:26 PM

As for trees in the winter, few look more gracefull than a bare crepe myrtle.

658. Thoughtful - 9/23/1999 9:46:02 PM

bbbtt, don't know that one. Elms are very graceful looking in winter, but they don't last long around here due to that dutch elm disease. I really do miss color in the winter, along with the sunlight. I'm glad that our yard has some very large cedar trees in it which stay so deeply colored in winter. Heck I'm so color deprived that I almost like BlueJays in winter. Thank goodness for cardinals. One of my favorite signs of spring is when the goldfinches start turning their brilliant color. See here.

659. bubbaette - 9/23/1999 9:50:47 PM

Thoughtful

My camilias start blooming in late February, just when I'm starting to think that I'll never make it to Spring.

We have a very tall Cedar of Lebanon in the front yard, which, along with the azaleas, camilias and holly, give me plenty of green year long. But the darned thing drops little barbed needles in the yard, so you can't walk barefooted out there.

660. glendajean - 9/23/1999 10:03:41 PM

Bubbaette -- my favorite part of the Crepe Myrtle is the bark.

The Gingko trees here in DC offer a brilliant color in the fall. Their fan shaped leaves usually fall in one day, and it feels like it's snowing orange.

The g trees do quite well in the city's tree boxes.

661. bubbaette - 9/23/1999 10:15:03 PM

Glendajean

That's one of the reasons I think they look so pretty in the winter -- the graceful lines and the mottled bark. People who overprune crepe myrtles till they look like a stump with a bunch of twigs sticking out of the top should be shot.

662. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:13:23 AM

bougainvillea

663. moonflower - 9/24/1999 8:19:30 AM

Nice pic of bougainvillea! Mine is not like a tree. It's only about 2 feet tall, rather spawling, with the same color bracts & leaves as in the picture. In August all the red color vanished, but then it started to return. I recall this happened with my late, great purple bougainvillea that couldn't survive winter. I usually think of bougainvillea as vine-like but mine hasn't acted in that way.

664. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:20:31 AM

I'm having trouble finding a decent jacob's ladder; this is the only one I found so far:

665. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:23:33 AM

Thoughtful's goldfinch

666. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:27:11 AM

For bougainvillea fans
Bougainvillea Info Page

667. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:30:43 AM

Moonflower, more like this?

668. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:36:16 AM

For glendajean

Crepe myrtle article

Excerpt:

The crepe myrtle's bark is nice in the winter,...

669. glendajean - 9/24/1999 8:38:47 AM

Thanks, Dusty. Bubbaette is right about over pruning CMs.

Ruthlessness is required when deciding whether the tree will be multi-caned (it's natural state) or a single trunk.

But too many CMs are cut more than 1/3rd under the delusion that this is good for the tree.

670. moonflower - 9/24/1999 9:51:54 AM

Hi Dusty and all: Yes, that's the vine-y bougainvillea I've heard about (grows lush & wild in warm places like Central America and Israel). Mine is much smaller anot viney-y. It does seem to have thorny bumps on it, not as severe as rose thorns. The jacob's ladders I have are w/variagated leaves, very interesting!

671. glendajean - 9/24/1999 9:55:08 AM

Moonflower -- if you ever get to San Francisco, you'll see big bougainvillea growth like that all over the city. South Texas, too. Probably South Florida as well. It's an amazing thing to see, particularly if you have tended a small one in a pot for several years.

672. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 9:58:03 AM

Here is a very simple and simplified recipe for daal, the Indo-Pakistani lentil dish, that I made under very trying circumstances this summer in Moscow. It came out really good, so I share it with you all.

PE's Moscow Daal

1 lb. lentils or split peas
5 cups chicken or vegetable stock
1/2 cup, vegetable oil, preferably olive or canola
3 medium-sized onions
20 cloves garlic
150g (approx. 5oz.) ginger root
4-10 green chilis
1 cup tomato purée
1 tablespoon, cumin seeds
1 tablespoon, turmeric
1 teaspoon, chili powder or cayenne pepper or paprika
salt to taste

Directions

Important: soak lentils or split peas for at least 12 hours. Drain.

In a blender, grind the onion, ginger, garlic and chilies to a paste. The result should look like applesauce with specks of green. Smell the aroma, savour the bouquet. It's fantastic.

In a shallow frying pan, sautée the paste in oil, stirring constantly. When it just starts to sizzle, add the lentils or split peas. After mixing and stirring for 5-10 minutes, place the contents in a tall nonstick pot, along with stock, tomato purée, cumin seeds, turmeric, chili powder and salt. Let the mixture boil. Then simmer. It's ready when the lentils/split peas have turned to mush and the liquid is reduced by half or so. The texture of the mush should be finer than mashed potatoes but more liquid.

673. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 9:58:29 AM

Notes
It might seem heretical not to use curry leaves (karipatta), but they are not necessary to good daal. But you can add them if you have a problem with apostasy.

Since this recipe is for the kind of lentils that disintegrate and turn to mush after cooking, make sure you don't get the kind that stay intact, e.g., urid daal. The utterly common yellow split peas sold at any supermarket in 1 lb. bags (i.e., under the Goya label) are quite sufficient. Or if you are willing to brave that inimitable mix of cardomoms, cloves and BO at an Indian grocery store, try the orange or yellow masoor daal.

Green chilis are necessary, non-negotiable. They add an indispensable aroma and taste. Don't skimp on them. The ideal chilies to get are the thin green chilis approx. 3 inches in length sold at Indian grocery stores. But at regular supermarkets I've seen the same thing labelled "finger hot peppers". If you must use substitutes, as I had to this summer, please note that red peppers are not any kind of equivalent for green chilis. Substitute, say, Hungarian hot peppers, but they are definitely inferior to the subcon green chilis.

Don't substitute chopped tomatoes for tomato purée. This daal is smooth and bulk-free. You can skin a couple of tomatoes using the standard boilling water treatment, remove the seeds, and then purée them in a blender. Or you can just get strained tomatoes from Pomi.

674. glendajean - 9/24/1999 9:59:04 AM

PE -- do you mind if we link it with our other recipes?

675. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 10:06:06 AM

Very neat recipe, Pseuder. It passes muster as far as I am concerned., even though the stock bit is close to anathema among daal devotees. BTW, I use Pomi tomatoes in their various boxed forms all the time now, I find them very convenient and excellent.

676. Ronski - 9/24/1999 10:14:40 AM

The best bougainvillea plant I ever saw was one in the lodge at the base of the Buttermilk ski area in Aspen, where I took my parents once (they had only skied in the East, and I insisted they see the Rockies). The plant, a cherry-red one, sat in one large pot and had been trained to run along the border of the enormous A-frame glass window facing the mountain. Because the sun poured in, it bloomed in the dead of winter. It was a little skimpy on leaves, but still impressive since it must have been thirty feet long. Or maybe I just liked it because it was at a ski area.

677. theDiva - 9/24/1999 10:17:49 AM

Question:

How does one remove motor oil spots from asphalt?

678. glendajean - 9/24/1999 10:19:06 AM

Kitty litter. Sand. Something to absorb the oil.

679. Dusty - 9/24/1999 10:19:40 AM

Ronski


Interesting. I've been by Buttermilk many times, but never stopped in. Maybe next time I'll check it out.

680. Dusty - 9/24/1999 10:20:41 AM

Diva, I'll second kitty litter, although I used it on concrete. Should work on asphalt, I would think.

681. theDiva - 9/24/1999 10:21:20 AM

Glenda

Thanks....then what? Sweep it up and pour Lysol on the spot? Or is that overkill?

682. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 10:22:01 AM

Deeve

you might want to follow up with some Dawn dish detergent and a scrub brush after the kitty litter.

683. Ronski - 9/24/1999 10:23:51 AM

Speaking of turmeric, I have found that if the saffron is just not coloring the rice as much as one would like, turmeric works well as saffron-helper.

I just planted some saffron crocus at the new house (it blooms in the fall). I am going to be in competition for its bounty with the squirrels, I fear.

684. glendajean - 9/24/1999 10:24:06 AM

Diva -- are you planning on serving dinner on the asphalt? (g)

Back in ought six when I was a kid ... my father used to buy something that looked like kitty litter to put on the oil stains in our garage. He'd let it set there for a couple of days, and then we would sweep it out. The particles, being abrasive, scratch out the remaining stain as much as possible. Then you have to let it wear away.

685. theDiva - 9/24/1999 10:25:18 AM

Bubb

Oh, okay, thanks.

Glenda

I'm married to Mr. Clean. He pours Lysol on everything inanimate.

686. glendajean - 9/24/1999 10:25:45 AM

Ronski -- I've wondered before if I could harvest saffron from my crocus flowers.

687. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:26:45 AM

Ronski: turmeric's been known as the poor man's saffron for years. Particularly red turmeric.

688. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 10:28:48 AM

But saffron doesn't have that mustard-y taste that turmeric has, does it?

689. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 10:30:04 AM

Ronski,

The difference between turmeric and saffron in terms of taste is vast, however. When a recipe call for that unique saffron flavoring as opposed to just color - NEVER use turmeric instead. It is not the same, not the same, not the same.

690. Ronski - 9/24/1999 10:32:23 AM

Dusty,

This was quite of few years ago. If it's still there, however, it would be truly enormous by now.

BTW, do you do Ajax and Snowmass as well? I haven't skied in Colorado for quite a while, but would like to go again soon. The view of the Maroon Bells is almost worth the trip alone.

691. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:32:48 AM

Yes, but a little bit of turmeric goes a long way if colouring is all you're interested.

692. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:35:03 AM

Funny, Bubbaette, that you should turmeric "mustardy". In fact, prepared mustards get their flavour from added turmeric. Rightly prepared mustard is what smells turmericky.

693. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 10:36:20 AM

Pseuder,

Sure.

Turmeric, however, has its own pleasures and properties. The version of chicken broth we make in the marjoribanks household when someone is sick/has a cold uses it liberally Also, it's considered to be a natural expectorant and decongestant. In India, it's often added to tea (haldi chai) with cardamom as a quick antidote for colds, etc.

694. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 10:37:39 AM

P.E.

I use turmeric for color in canning pickles and jalapenos. But too much can put the flavor off.

695. Dusty - 9/24/1999 10:37:48 AM

Ronski

Snowmass. I'm fortunate to have a brother-in-law with a place on the mountain.

696. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:38:27 AM

Turmeric in jalapeños? Never imagined.

697. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 10:41:10 AM

P.E.

Just a bit -- a scant 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of vinegar. But then I get my spices mail-order and they warn to use 1/2 of the tumeric called for in the recipe because it's very intensly flavored.

698. theDiva - 9/24/1999 10:44:34 AM

And Bubba's pickles are fabulous, I am here to testify. Yum, yum.

699. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:46:01 AM

By the way, the daal in #672 is quite excellent for use in Mex-Con "huevos rancheros": daal poured on fried eggs over parathas as breakfast. Sure beats refried beans with tortillas.

700. theDiva - 9/24/1999 10:46:43 AM

Mex-i-Con?

701. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 10:47:29 AM

The basic recipe sound much like koshari (sp) but with more heat.

702. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 10:48:16 AM

More on turmeric (haldi) from one of my Bibles of Indian cooking:

"Haldi is widely used in many Indian dishes, though only in small quantities.; it is carmative and is good for the digestion. It is known to have certain antiseptic properties.

Turmeric is a useful ingredient in indigenous medical preparations such as oild, ointments and poultices and is a natural toner, conditioner and cleanser for the skin. .....haldi is an important and versatile vegetable dye and has been used for centuries as food coloring, as a dye for cotton, and even in paints and varnishes. In Hinduism, haldi has a religious significance....

Although it is sometimes called "the poor man's saffron," any resemblance is only the most fleeting and superficil. It shares little with that highy prized stigma of the crocus flower, other than an ability to impart a yellow color to the food with which it is cooked.......so entirely different are they in aroma, flavor and color that it does not take even an experienced eye a moment to detect the difference between a dish falsely embellished with a turmeric yellow and one that has been treated to the golden sunset hues of true saffron."

703. theDiva - 9/24/1999 10:49:09 AM

Banks, check your hotmail, please.

704. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 10:49:52 AM

The desi Huevos con Rancheros sound revolting, no offense. Daal and parathas okay, but fried eggs? Yuck.

705. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 10:51:40 AM

Banks

I can't imagine anyone using turmeric for skin care without looking severly jaundiced. I get yellow stains on my kitchen counter and finger tips whenever I can pickles.

706. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:52:29 AM

It must be that culinary syncretism is foreign to a monocultural such as yourself.

707. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:53:26 AM

"....t is carmative and is good for the digestion...."

The subcons and the Chinese, they will find a medical purpose for any old bloody thing.

708. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:54:26 AM

rather claim a medical purpose, not find.

709. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 10:54:36 AM

cultural syncretism?!! Rather grand words for mix-and-match willy-nilly.

I like all kind of odd combinations. It's just that the very idea of daal and fried eggs slightly turn my stomach. But hey, if it gets you up in the morning go for it.

710. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:55:58 AM

By the way, after some investigation into the term "desi", I conclude that it must be a subcon diaspora term. Which then is no wonder I'd never heard of it until Marzipranky-pranks.

711. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 10:56:19 AM

Bubbaette,

It's put on in a paste and then taken off, of course. Brides are traditionally coated with the stuff the night before the wedding day. There's even a highly popular commercial cream which is made for the exact purpose.

712. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 10:57:03 AM

Pseuder,

Re: desi - go do some more investigation.

713. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:58:28 AM

refried beans & eggs.... (Mexican)

salted boiled soybeans & eggs (Japanese)

and therefore by extention

daal & eggs

the principle is: ova & legumes.

Doesn't seem all that outrageous.

714. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 10:59:09 AM

#712

Well, no one non-diaspora I asked had ever heard of the term. That's sufficient, in my view.

715. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:04:04 AM

Pseuder,

I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe. I've heard innumerable Pakistanis and Indians refer to their country as "hamara desh" or "apna desh". Desi simply refers to those from this "desh", and not only is it a term I grew up with, it's a term I have heard every day that I have been in the subcontinent. I grant that in the diaspora people use it to describe all sub-cons and that this particular meaning isn't very common in India/Pak.

716. Ronski - 9/24/1999 11:04:19 AM

Agree that the taste and aroma of true saffron and turmeric are not comparable. I first used a little turmeric to enhance the saffron when we were serving a dinner outside on the deck at night, with only the light of a couple of lanterns. I just felt the diners should know it was indeed yellow rice.

Another substitute, and one with absolutely no flavor or aroma, are the filaments of safflower, which is sometimes called "American saffron" or "Mexican saffron." Safflower seeds make a very good bird seed; it tends to be ignored by creatures other than birds, such as squirrels, and, I continue to hope, my friend Bruno.

Spring crocus (Northern Hemisphere) cannot be harvested for saffron. In fact, neither can any fall crocus other than true saffron crocus, which is known as Crocus sativus.

717. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:08:00 AM

Marzipranks: Apna desh and hamara desh are not uncommon terms. From that, however, you can't extrapolate the widespread use of "desi" among non-diaspora folk. I've asked over 30 non-diaspora Paks in Pakistan -- not one had heard of the term.

718. Ronski - 9/24/1999 11:08:44 AM

vonKreedon,

(From yesterday) Of the commercially available oaks, both Northern Red Oak (Quercus rubra) and Pin Oak (Q. palustris) both like damp spots.

719. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:12:28 AM

Pseuder,

Well, I can't claim that I've gone around Pakistan asking people this question, because I haven't ever been to Pakistan. But the Pakistanis I knew in college and know as colleagues all use the term exactly as I do. Certainly, it is an extremely common term in India.

Anyway, check this out from Botanical.com. Medicinal uses of Turmeric.

720. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:16:27 AM

Do you know, Marzipranks, that there is a restaurant called Miramar which bills itself as "Goan Indian" in Portchester, NY (aka Tijuana)? I've seen it from the street a couple of times, though, naturally, I've never been inside.

721. theDiva - 9/24/1999 11:16:37 AM

Banks, you have got to come over to the Sports thread. Some RedSox fans are crying in their beer.

722. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:19:20 AM

Diva,

Let the poor gents be, it's no time to pile on.

Pseuder,

Yes, I know of it. I've received several invitations to check it out but haven't yet ventured to do so. I hesitate to imagine what its food is like. Frankly, I don't like a lot of Goan food.

But you've probably tried some Goan dishes before, or approximations of them. Vindaloo is Goan, for example.

723. theDiva - 9/24/1999 11:21:11 AM

grumble.....grumble.....grumble.....oh, okay.

Leave it to you to be a gentleman at a time like this.....

724. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:22:16 AM

# 719

Maybe Mohajirs use it. I can't say I've asked any of those. They're basically Indian anyway.

725. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:24:32 AM

"Maybe Mohajirs use it. I can't say I've asked any of those. They're basically Indian anyway."

They're basically Indian? How can you say this with a straight face? No wonder the poor fuckers are launching an armed and concerted campaign for their rights.

726. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:24:50 AM

Speaking of which, I've come across some Pakyderms in that GabbleGawk place. In particular, that Anglo-Mohajir appears to be an idiot.

727. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:25:37 AM

#725

Hahahahaha. I knew that would get a rise out of you.

728. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:26:33 AM

Marzipranks, the richest people in Karachi are Mohajirs. The poorest are also Mohajirs.

729. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:26:53 AM

The person in question is very interesting and well read and thoughtful and civil. I'm hoping he'll join us here, and I've already invited him. Sure, Rossi and some other commies have influenced him unduly - but it's not an irredeemable situation.

730. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:28:31 AM

Sorry, but I read that Edward Said thread -- where I should be putting in some remarks shortly -- and I found that Anglo-Mohajir indistinguishable in shrillness & hysteria from the mindless Zionists there.

731. Ronski - 9/24/1999 11:28:34 AM

Turmeric oatmeal?

732. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:28:59 AM

He may be civil and even well read, but thoughtful he is not.

733. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:33:10 AM

Well, maybe. I've only interacted with him a little, but I like him.

Anyway, I've given up on the Said thread. There is no opposition worth its name except for that Watkins character. And he refuses to answer simple questions.

734. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:34:26 AM

In fact, he's the very sort of Anglo-Third-Worldist Pinko Musselman crybaby I can't stand.

735. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:37:52 AM

Maybe that Sarah C Smith woman and the Anglo-Mohajir could get together and do a remake of that insufferable film Sammie and Rosie Get Laid.

736. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:40:59 AM

"Anglo-Third-Worldist Pinko Musselman crybaby"

Er, you know more than one? I can kind of see adding Hanif Kureishi to the list but surely that's it?

BTW, you're being needlessly brutal to the rather resilient Sarah. Pick on the real asshole ignorants, like corncob and shameless.

737. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:43:02 AM

Rushdie is another.

738. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 11:44:21 AM

There is just something askew, awry, about the mixture of Britain, Pakistan and Sandinistas which really makes me pugnacious.

739. glendajean - 9/24/1999 11:49:16 AM

A far afield from either home or garden. Perhaps Marjori wants to start a sub-thread on the criticism or ranking of subcon cultures?

Or not. I did enjoy the food discussion.

740. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:49:31 AM

Actually, the only place I've even come across highly "leftist" Westernized observant Muslims is in England, though obviously they exist in other countries.But then almost everyone who has come out of the University system there in the last three decades or so is unwarrantedly commie-leaning. People unashamedly call themselves British Socialists, so I guess a few Muslim fellow-travellers is not a surprise.

741. vonKreedon - 9/24/1999 11:50:08 AM

Ron - Thanks for the information on the Oaks. If I remember correctly, the Red Oak has good fall color as well. Cool.

742. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 11:50:28 AM

Sorry, GledaJean.

I'll take it elsewhere.

743. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 12:31:15 PM

Sorry, glendajean, I forgot to answer your # 674. Yes, you can do with the recipe whatever you like.

744. ScottLoar - 9/24/1999 12:46:19 PM

Motor oil on concrete, brick or asphalt is best first absorbed, yes, by kitty litter or sawdust, but then the surface can be scrubbed with a good cleaner like Simple Green which is about the most effective commercial degreaser I've ever found. No household should be without Simple Green and, as a further bonus of unsolicited advice, no household with wood flooring should be without Murphy's Oil Soap.

745. theDiva - 9/24/1999 12:48:29 PM

Scott

Thank you.....Simple Green can be found at places like Home Depot? I seem to recall seeing it there.

746. ScottLoar - 9/24/1999 12:51:13 PM

Oh, but of course! Any hardware store will carry the stuff as well.

747. theDiva - 9/24/1999 12:52:42 PM

Sweetie has his work cut out for him, I think.

748. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 12:56:35 PM

"Motor oil on concrete, brick or asphalt is best first absorbed, yes, by kitty litter or sawdust...No household should be without Simple Green."

I would just hire a few Bangladeshis to sit on the stains for a couple of weeks, meals included.

749. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 12:57:44 PM

makes it difficult to park in that spot, though.

750. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 12:58:21 PM

No it doesn't.

751. ScottLoar - 9/24/1999 12:59:25 PM

I'm talking about stain remover, not additive.

752. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 12:59:41 PM

Well if you don't mind the damage to the undercarriage... Where do you suppose the oil leaks came from in the 1st place?

753. theDiva - 9/24/1999 12:59:51 PM

You guys are rough.

754. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 1:01:54 PM

Not as rough as your pavement will be if you keep parking on Bangladeshis.

755. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:01:59 PM

#751: hehehehe!

bubbaette: that's why, during your interviews with the army of Bangladeshis, you must pick and choose from among those recently emaciated from starvation, flooding, monsoons and other natural disasters common to their land.

756. theDiva - 9/24/1999 1:02:41 PM

I hope you're all happy. Now I have to go to confession tomorrow.

757. ScottLoar - 9/24/1999 1:04:38 PM

Diva, if you truly want to bear down on one's manhood just check between the tines of your dinner forks. Yes. Now the forks must be thoroughly soaked in boiling water, then scrubbed with a toothbrush, then boiled again, and finally each tine to be wiped dry with a linen towel. Most men object to such labour but I leave the decision to your sensitivities.

I am an indefatigable cleaner with a nose supersensitive.

758. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:06:14 PM

#756, the only time I have ever been asked to leave a taxi -- kicked out --was when I was talking in vain (with my fellow passenger) about Bangladeshis more or less as I am now. I think I mentioned that their frequent natural disasters were far superior as birth control device to the unreliable premature withdrawl method. The next thing you know, I was in the middle of West Philadelphia.

759. CalGal - 9/24/1999 1:09:40 PM

Well, what do you know. Karma caught up with you. There is justice in the cosmos after all.

760. theDiva - 9/24/1999 1:10:12 PM

Scott

That sounds like something Sweetie would do to pass the time. As I said earlier, I am married to Mr. Clean, bless his heart.

761. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 1:11:05 PM

I find Pakis much more absorbent.

BTW, Pseuder, the death of live humans is hardly to be seen as "birth control." I made some similar flippant comments to my grandfather (mitigating factor : I was about eight years old) and the thunderous lecture I rec'd has stayed with me.

762. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:12:48 PM

Well, if you're going to be pedantic about it, then, not birth control but population control.

Now, do you propose, instead of the death of live humans, the death of dead humans?

763. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 1:13:21 PM

Loar,

Don't tell me me you subject yourself and your fork-tines to such a gruelling exercise after each meal. If so, damn, you're an extremely intense householder.

764. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:13:35 PM

#761, "I find Pakis much more absorbent."

Is this per report of your wife?

765. CalGal - 9/24/1999 1:13:44 PM

And at what point will poor GJ's thread buckle and collapse from the vigor of the resulting discussion? This is a gentle place. Another thread, perhaps?

766. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 1:14:36 PM

Pedant,

Live humans as opposed to those still in the foetal condition. Perhaps I too should revise.

767. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 1:14:56 PM

Either that, or he has a methamphetimine problem.

768. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 1:15:43 PM

Either that, or he has a methamphetimine problem.

769. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 1:15:57 PM

Personal experience, my friend, I speak from personal experience. Like sponges, those Pakis are.

770. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 1:16:36 PM

I got to remember not to hit the "reload" button. The above two were in response to 763.

771. ScottLoar - 9/24/1999 1:17:19 PM

No, of course not, as we keep our utensils clean. Christ! I'm not a compulsive cleaner, just clean. But look between the tines of your own forks, and the sides of each tine, and see what you will see.

772. Adrianne - 9/24/1999 1:18:21 PM

Bbba

Either that, or you have a methamphetamine problem.

773. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 1:20:37 PM

Ad

Could be -- I don't have any, is that a problem?

774. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 1:20:52 PM

Loar,

Having been raised that way, I too am quite serious about cleanliness and (like any good Indian) particularly uncleanliness. But I merely first soak my cutlery, then scrub and rinse them thoroughly, then dump them in the dishwasher.

We have "soocha" and "jhoota" counters in our kitchen, for stuff that is obscurely "clean" and "unclean". Does your household have anything like that? I'm not sure if the Chinese have such arcane customs.

775. Adrianne - 9/24/1999 1:27:59 PM

hahahaha, only if it makes you feel unclean.

776. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 1:32:01 PM

well there ARE all these bugs crawling all over my skin.

777. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:33:07 PM

Hindooooo obsessions with cleanliness and uncleanliness surely present some of the greatest divides between reality and ideal known to man.

778. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 1:41:47 PM

Well, it's somewhat on topic so let me expound.

Indians in general have a curious obsessiveness about cleanliness, even ritual cleanliness. But this extends only to private spaces. There is no real concept of public duty or public cleanliness, especially in the big cities. A public space means anything goes, so it becomes a public latrine, a public spitoon, a public garbage dump.

I have yet, on the other hand, to visit an Indian home, whether hovel or palace, which is not spotlessly clean. The bathrooms and kitchen especially.

The "leaders" of India since 1947 have railed and expounded about this national character defect endlessly. But this verbiage and sternness has had no appreciable impact.

779. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:46:18 PM

But it's like that in so many developing countries, and not just in Asia.

780. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:48:07 PM

The vast gulf between public squalour and private tidiness is found almost universally.

781. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 2:06:14 PM

I don't know if that is true. To my eye, the big cities in China were much much cleaner than the Indian equivalents, and there seemed to be a genuine sense of communal civic duty in that country which is totally lacking in India. Of the Western countries, the only one which remotely offers a case parallel to the kind of situation we're talking about is France. The French think nothing of spitting, or having their dogs shit, in public places. Imagine trying that in Germany, or even England, or (horrors) Switzerland.

782. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 2:24:46 PM

Cities in the PRC are filthy as hell!

Anyway, I don't believe this is mostly a matter of culture. It's a question of laws and institutions.

783. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 2:26:06 PM

I believe Loar has expressed himself rather vocally on this subject: in the East Asia that he is familiar with, public spaces are underdevevloped or left to seed, in comparison with private amenities. That certainly squares with my experience.

784. Dusty - 9/24/1999 2:26:34 PM

marjoribanks

I was never in a large city, but the towns weren't what I would call clean.

785. Dusty - 9/24/1999 2:28:20 PM

marjoribanks

Oops, sorry, I just reread and realized you were making a relative comment. I haven't been in India, so I cannot compare.

786. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 2:36:48 PM

Well, let me say this. In Beijing (perhaps not representative) every public space I visited was clean and well-tended, and the people who visited it seemed to exhibit some sense of responsibility for that space. This was particularly true in the early mornings, I was staggered by the variety of group activities underway almost everywhere there was an open green space. India exhibits none of this. Except in the big maidans, where cricket is played obsessively and nothing else goes on.

787. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 2:41:53 PM

Beijing is of course exceptional. It's a kind of showcase city, and the national govt spends huge sums on sweepers & cleaninng people.

Again, I repeat: I believe the cleanliness or uncleanliness of cities in general has little to do with culture and everything to do with laws & institutions.

788. glendajean - 9/24/1999 2:45:57 PM

Cal -- no problem. The political bent of muslims educated in Britain was a stretch. The current conversation is more domestic in tone.

I just got back from a lunch where a lesbian explained to four gay men the operating mechanics of a diaphragm. My boundaries have been expanded.

789. theDiva - 9/24/1999 2:47:25 PM

I'd say so.

Did she mention the part about how they tend to shoot across the bathroom if you're not careful?

790. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 2:49:53 PM

Diva

or the bedroom, as the case may be...

791. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 2:50:51 PM

#789,

Pardon me, Diva, but I don't ever shoot across the bathroom. My stream of golden elixir splits like the Tigris and Euphrates.

792. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 2:51:30 PM

Oh, you were talking about diaphragms.....

793. glendajean - 9/24/1999 2:52:17 PM

All of which more information that I ever wanted to know.

PE -- you never said if we could link your recipe. Any problem with that.

794. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 2:53:37 PM

I thought I had, GJ, sure go ahead.

795. theDiva - 9/24/1999 2:56:31 PM

I can't begin to describe how deeply I regret posting the second sentence in #789. My mother would be appalled. Sorry, Glenda.

796. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 2:58:10 PM

Diva,

Forget about you, I too may have to go to confession. And I haven't been for at least 7 years.

797. theDiva - 9/24/1999 2:58:52 PM

Hahahaha! Don't worry, it gets easier each time.

798. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 3:02:11 PM

Seven years is alot to remember. How many "hail mary's" do they give you for that?

799. CuriousPluck - 9/24/1999 3:05:53 PM

Ugh. When my grandfather returned to visit China for the first time in over fifty years, he hated the filth and instantly regretted his "vacation" after his second day. If my ex-pat uncle wasn't in Asia, 'ole grandad would have caught the first flight home to his chosen, cozy country. He said he couldn't breathe such polluted air, while dodging hordes of bicycling humanity who spit, and publicly defecated (hmmm, gymnasts I guess). He considered them savages. I think he suffered culture shock. It revolted him to recall that he had any relation to "The Sty" - as he termed it. Even his ancestral digs were too tiny ... he was miserable.

800. theDiva - 9/24/1999 3:07:45 PM

Bubb

Depends upon the priest. They tend to go easy on you, though, if you've been away for a while. They don't want to scare you, after all. And even at my worst confessions, the most I ever got was a decade of the rosary and an Our Father.

801. ScottLoar - 9/24/1999 3:09:12 PM

CuriousPluck, a common reaction to almost anyone who has but rosey memories of a place but dimly remembered. The descendants are even rougher in their evaluation.

802. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 3:11:42 PM

Diva,

While I have no desire to ever go though again the curious procedure of recounting "sins" and having them erased through ritual repetitions, let me tell you that you have been lucky with these softy American clergymen. In India, the mere mention of the word "diaphragm" to a padre would have you muttering away for at least a week.

803. marjoribanks - 9/24/1999 3:12:55 PM

CuriousPluck,

Tell me about it. The "grand" environs of my childhood, while maintained very well, look shabbier to me every time I return again.

804. theDiva - 9/24/1999 3:14:49 PM

Hahaha! Of course, in my most dissolute days, I went nowhere near a confessional, so I suppose I have no point of comparison.

805. Bubbaette - 9/24/1999 3:18:00 PM

Diva

DH returned to confession after a 10 year or so absence before his daughter was baptised, and not only did he have to say the rosaries and all that stuff, but he had to give up beer for a month.

806. theDiva - 9/24/1999 3:19:22 PM

Hoo boy.

807. CuriousPluck - 9/24/1999 3:26:28 PM

ScottLoar - I wonder how rosy his memories were. He detested China his whole life, affluent as his family was. His bitterness allowed him to leave behind everything in the spirit of whitewashing.

808. Ronski - 9/24/1999 4:54:07 PM

Just stopped by to wish my H&G friends a lovely weekend.

We are going to see Dame Edna on Saturday, and then put more stuff together for the house on Sunday. I bought a wooden contraption to hide 225 feet of garden hose; and the BF has some cedar table extensions to assemble. He's getting very handy. I like that in a man.

809. glendajean - 9/24/1999 5:44:04 PM

He's a handy man, and he's going with you to see Dame Edna. I like that combination in a man. Have a good weekend, Ronski.

810. moonflower - 9/24/1999 6:58:49 PM

Just was outside planting squill. Bought a big container for my bougainvillea this winter. There is something both sad and fun about preparing for winter. I'm not ready at all to surrender even a petal in my garden yet. Here's a great flower which is tall, orangey, and blooms from July to frost: helenium. Does anyone else have this? It's a perennial, so I'll be seeing its orange face again. Dusty, got any of your great pics for us?

811. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:15:44 PM

There are several kinds of helenium. Here's Helenium puberulum (Sneezeweed)

812. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:27:25 PM

Heleniun Hoopesii (Owlsclaws)

813. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:30:42 PM

Scilla siberica
(Siberian Squill)

814. Dusty - 9/24/1999 8:39:46 PM

Dame Edna
(Damia Ednia)

815. moonflower - 9/24/1999 9:34:16 PM

Thanks, Dusty, the Helenium I have is the "owl's claws" you pictured. Looking forward to my squill too--another nice pic. As for Dame Edna, I adore him/her, think of Dame as a great role model in a culture that still thinks Reagan is cool. Come to think of it, Dame E would make a great president, the real rose in the rose garden!

816. Thoughtful - 9/26/1999 10:49:38 AM

'Scuse me... Is this the H&G thread I've come to know and love? I leave for a few days and the next thing I know I think I'm in the genitalia thread again. Course I guess contraception can fall under the practical household items category.


Ah yes, I forgot... our beloved PseuE is back.
Splains everything.

817. glendajean - 9/26/1999 5:12:06 PM

Thoughtful, I'm the culprit. Sorry.

818. moonflower - 9/26/1999 7:36:58 PM

Well, for thoughts of home and thoughts of garden to swim toward thoughts of romance is a rather natural occurence. The fertility samba plays in a thousand asters! But it happened again. We got home tonight just in time to watch another moonflower open. And I see the first buds on my Japanese Anemone and on my toad lilies! October is promising to be way cool!

819. Dusty - 9/26/1999 7:58:21 PM

Ipomoea alba
Moonflower

820. Dusty - 9/26/1999 8:01:47 PM

Japanese Anemone
Anemone japonica

821. Dusty - 9/26/1999 8:06:50 PM

Toad Lilies
Tricyrtis hirta variegata

822. glendajean - 9/26/1999 8:36:53 PM

Dusty -- I loved the Dame Edna (Damia Ednia) picture. Exotic species.

My asters are all open and blooming now. I plan to add some more, probably next week, as well as chrysanthemums, and some flowering annuals.

823. SnowOwl - 9/26/1999 10:46:01 PM

Japanese anemones, windflowers. I've got the pink in Dusty's photo and also a beautiful pure white one. They're great for colonising but in this area can get a bit invasive if I don't keep a watchful eye on them.

After a weekend that made me think summer was on the way it feels just like winter here again today. I pranced around outside scattering wildflower seeds yesterday and had great plans for garden work today, but instead I'm stuck inside thinking about it. I did do a quick dash around and picked all the flowers that had been knocked to the ground by the wind and rain, so I'm sitting with a bowl full of Spring in front of me and I'm almost knocked over by the scent of the Earlicheer daffodils.

824. moonflower - 9/26/1999 11:01:02 PM

First, SnowOwl, loved your post--turn it into a poem!!! Second, Dusty, I find I check this site two or three times a day in the hopes that the vivid surprise of your pictures will once again lift me. The Japanese anemone I have will be of the whitish-pink variety. It's simply not possible to have too many anemones (what a joy the spring ones are!). And as for asters, I have six different varities, and the queen of them all right now is the New York aster.

825. pellenilsson - 9/27/1999 4:04:11 AM

As some of you know I'm in Maputo. I have been eating restaurant food for five weeks now, and it gets boring. I have started to think about dishes I will cook when I get home in just over a week's time. I'll share one of them with you: Pelle's Anything Goes Bourguignonne (sp?). I'm not giving quantities. They depend on the number of persons to be served. In addition I'm completely unfamiliar with the Amercican system of cups, spoons and whatnot.

Mandatory ingredients.

• Meat of some kind.
  
• Finely chopped or crushed garlic.
  
• Onions cut in halves or quarters depending on size.
  
• Canned whole tomatoes. Press out most of the juice and cut them into rather big pieces.
  
• Laurel leaves
  
• Inexpensive red wine.
  
• Salt, black pepper.

• Concentrated broth.
  
• Bacon or other smoked pork (but not a lot).

• Soy sauce
  
• Worcestershire sauce (but go easy on it)
  
• Hot chili peppers
  
• Spices you like (but not oriental ones)

826. pellenilsson - 9/27/1999 4:05:18 AM

The dish can be served with almost anything, although I'm personally sceptical about pasta. If you prefer potatoes, and have a large enough pot, it is nice to slice them and let them cook along with the other ingredients.

Slap all the ingredients together and put them in a pot. Avoid aluminium ones. Bring to the boil and let simmer for 45 minutes or so. Enjoy the delicious smell that will fill your kitchen. Add wine if too little liquid. Remove cover for a while if too much. Put the pot on the table and let your guests help themselves.

If you exclude the potatoes the dish can be prepared a day in advance and heated before serving. In fact it will be even nicer then, as will most pot dishes.

And if you exchange the red whine for white, take away the laurel leaves and the smoked meat, and add some oregano, thyme, etc. the dish becomes "Anything Goes Vaguely Italian".

827. SpenceMirrlees - 9/27/1999 5:18:58 AM

(The other part of the leg is the thigh.)

828. pellenilsson - 9/27/1999 5:35:30 AM

That I know. I thought it may have a name type 'drumstick'. Do you really say 'chicken thighs' when you shop for them?

829. SpenceMirrlees - 9/27/1999 5:37:07 AM

Well, where I grew up, you do. There may be regional differences I don't know about.

830. SpenceMirrlees - 9/27/1999 5:38:19 AM

For example, drumsticks were usually just called "legs" where I grew up, as distinct from thighs.

831. dusty - 9/27/1999 9:15:51 AM

Moonflower, is this the one?

Japanese Anemone
Anemone japonica

832. dusty - 9/27/1999 9:18:09 AM

New York Aster
Aster novi-belgii

833. Ronski - 9/27/1999 9:48:49 AM

Both New York aster and New England aster are in bloom now in the Northeast. They are a little sparse because of the drought, but you can find them fairly easily. In their natural forms, they are mostly lavender (the former) and purple (the latter), but they both also appear in pink shades and occasionally white. Both have been cultivated and hybridized for garden flowers for many years in Europe, especially England, where they are known as Michaelmas Daisies, and Germany. The German varieties are especially colorful. There is a seed strain, Benary's Formula Mix, which is available from several seed catalogs (Park's, Morgan & Thompson, etc.) and which is very easy to grow, producing loads of mostly tall plants.

Among the cultivated varieties you can find dwarf strains to buy as plants.

Some of the best known fall-blooming aster hybrids are "Purple Dome," "Alma Potschke," "September Ruby," and "Professor Kipferberg." A related plant, Boltonia, is also native to the Northeast and is white, usually, or pink. These have also been cultivated and are widely available as plants in nurseries or by mail.

There are a ton of species in the aster family with smaller, less conspicuous flowers blooming along roadsides right now as well. Along with the waning goldenrod, they are giving the bees and butterflies their last food before the frost. I was working in the garden yesterday when a monarch landed on one of these wild plants right along side me (I was trying to dislodge a small boulder at the time, with little success). I found it interesting that she was not attracted to the cultivated varieties (Purple Dome, September Ruby) that were growing nearby. The wilder plant must have had better nectar or fragrance.

834. Ronski - 9/27/1999 9:58:54 AM

As for helenium, I grew some of the hybrids in my garden in Brooklyn, but have not planted any yet at the new place. I will do so, and test its deer resistance. I've noticed that the deer, who have been browsing again, have left the chrysanthemums alone, but that cannot be said for the dahlias, which they seem to find especially succulent. There was some helenium blooming in a public garden along the NYC West Side Highway (now Joe DiMaggio Highway) until recently, in a dark, brick-red shade. I try to drive in the adjacent lane, so that when standing still, which is often, I can enjoy the flowers there while it is still garden season.

835. Ronski - 9/27/1999 10:00:23 AM

As for helenium, I grew some of the hybrids in my garden in Brooklyn, but have not planted any yet at the new place. I will do so, and test its deer resistance. I've noticed that the deer, who have been browsing again, have left the chrysanthemums alone, but that cannot be said for the dahlias, which they seem to find especially succulent. There was some helenium blooming in a public garden along the NYC West Side Highway (now Joe DiMaggio Highway) until recently, in a dark, brick-red shade. I try to drive in the adjacent lane, so that when standing still, which is often, I can enjoy the flowers there while it is still garden season.

836. Ronski - 9/27/1999 10:01:42 AM

I'm having posting problems, and suspect a double-post is wafting through cyber-space to this place right now. Let's see if I'm right.

837. Ronski - 9/27/1999 10:02:24 AM

Well, I was right. Sorry about that folks.

838. Ronski - 9/27/1999 10:12:21 AM

You know what is one of my favorite flowers? Red-hot poker, but only in the all-yellow shade. There is a primose-yellow one growing near the helenium mentioned above. I've also planted one at the new house. We'll see if it survives, as they are sometimes not all that hardy, especially is they are all yellow for some reason. The more common form is yellow at the base and red at the top.

839. Ronski - 9/27/1999 10:19:45 AM

By the way, my little butterfly friend yesterday had the most ragged skirt imaginable. I don't know whether it was the hurricane or predators, but I was glad to see her get along quite well since the lower parts of her wings were almost half-missing.

840. dusty - 9/27/1999 10:31:11 AM

KNIPHOFIA
Torchlily or Red Hot Poker

(Still looking for all yellow)

841. glendajean - 9/27/1999 10:32:51 AM

I have the traditional red hot pokers. Mine bloomed in the middle of the summer.

842. dusty - 9/27/1999 10:41:21 AM

KNIPHOFIA
Torchlily or Red Hot Poker

Pheww, I was starting to wonder if I would find any. It's a pretty crappy pic, but the only one I found.

843. dusty - 9/27/1999 10:43:55 AM

KNIPHOFIA
Torchlily or Red Hot Poker

Of course, the very next site I checked had a better picture.

844. dusty - 9/27/1999 10:45:01 AM

Glendajean, feel free to remove #842

845. Ronski - 9/27/1999 11:00:30 AM

A favorite color scheme: Yellow snapdragons and blue bachelor buttons. I've got to do that on the deck next year.

I also like any white flowers mixed with very dark red (almost black) flowers. Bachelor buttons come in both shades, as do tulips, dahlias and carnations.

With tulips, I also like mixing black ones with a pale pink variety (like "Esther").

846. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 11:23:47 AM

Good Morning...

The turkey I made on Friday was wonderful...a very small one; I used half a bottle of white wine and some broth and sort of poached it in a roasting pan. But the surprise was the sweet potatoes...yams, whatever they are called. I had 4 small ones and decided to peel them and just toss them in whole with the turkey. I knew they would probably turn to mush in the liquid but figured I'd mix in some bread crumbs and make a sort of glopped dressing. However, they remained intact and were fantastic. I may do them this way all the time instead of wrapping in foil and baking them.

847. Bubbaette - 9/27/1999 11:31:01 AM

I bake sweet potatoes the same as Idaho potatoes -- pierce the skin with a fork, coat it with butter and put it in the over straight on the rack. I think the skin is the best part of the potato and don't like the way aluminum foil steams the skin.

848. moonflower - 9/27/1999 11:33:03 AM

Hi Dusty and Ronski and all. Thanks, again, Dusty for the pics. Yes, the aster is one I have planted and that is my Japanese anemone. Ronski, I love bachelor buttons. Also have mountain bluet which seems related (as is cornflower, I believe). In Crocket's Victory Garden book he says that in fall blue is the color of honor. So I'm "honored" by blue salvia now. As for snapdragons, they're among my faves. Did ROTTEN last year but fine this year. Maybe they prefer it dry? I have more than one kind. Color-wise, those salmon, offred ones are particularly fetching.

849. Ronski - 9/27/1999 12:04:59 PM

Do your snaps come back ever? They have slight perennial or biennial qualities, and in zone 6 or warmer will sometimes winter over. I'm now almost in zone 5, though. They also may reseed themselves sometimes, as do petunia, nicotania, portulaca and even, rarely, impatiens.

850. Ronski - 9/27/1999 12:58:54 PM

Speaking of starting fall-blooming asters from seed, you can start chrysanthemums from seed quite easily too. The foolproof ones are "Korean Hybrids Mixed," available from many seed catalogs. You will need a lot of sunny space, as they are tall varieties for the most part. And they need plenty of sun so as to bloom well and not to get leggy. They have single daily-like flowers, but in very interesting colors and combinations.

851. JudithAtHome - 9/27/1999 1:02:05 PM

What are daily-like flowers?

852. Dusty - 9/27/1999 1:06:30 PM

daisy?

853. Ronski - 9/27/1999 1:20:09 PM

Sorry: daisy-like flowers.

854. Ronski - 9/27/1999 3:36:37 PM

Having received a spices catalog, it reminds me I wanted to add something to our discussion of saffron, namely the common saffron substitute of the Caribbean: annatto.

Annatto is yellowish red dye made from seeds of a Caribbean tree (Bixa orellana). It is widely used in Puerto Rico to make yellow rice.

I have this urge to use real saffron and make some saffron orzo tossed with fried half button mushrooms (or a better mushroom if I can find some). I'd say I'd toss in some fried Asian eggplant, but I know that would evince groans in some quarters, so I won't.

Btw, this spice catalog sells three forms of saffron, two Spanish grades and one from India, which is the most expensive, and whose filaments clearly look the fattest in their photograph detailing the difference in the quality of the three types.

855. moonflower - 9/27/1999 3:52:29 PM

Ronski, yes, my snapdragons have overwintered--but were woody and not too happy. I am not happy just pulling them out and starting fresh. I'm at the tail end of zone 7 (SE Penn). Yet, as fall is here, I'm hoping these snaps do well and make a return. After a grueling meeting at work, I rushed home to plant a frittilaria (orange, my first) and henflowers. Hope the squirrels leave the bulbs alone.
I heard that fritllarias have a rather bad smell.

856. SnowOwl - 9/27/1999 4:13:19 PM

moonbeam, my frittalarias don't seem to have any smell at all, although there are different varieties so I guess it depends on the one you have. I grow one of the checkered type, with unusual colouring of green and a sort of reddish/brown.

Rhododendrons are all beginning to flower here now, in fact the early flowerers have been and gone. Quite a number of my rhody bushes have fewer flower buds than normal and I wonder if our unusually warm, dry winter has had something to do with that.

ronski, I love blue and yellow together in the garden. A friend of mine had terrible problems with dandelions that kept returning no matter what she did. In the end she decided to learn to love them, so emptied a packet of forgetmenot seeds around the area in which they grew. Now every year she has a glorious display of gold and blue, so striking that strangers have been known to come down her path for a closer look.

The one garden bed that I actually planned a proper colour scheme for is a great success. It's all yellow, silver and white and it's particularly striking at dusk when the whites and silvers seem to glimmer. It's the only bed I don't let immigrants settle down in and it's one of my favourite parts of the garden.

857. moonflower - 9/27/1999 5:35:41 PM

The henflowers I planted are evidently small members of the fritilaria family. For some reason, I have anemones and even a rununcula which have sent up foliage, not much, but a little. And my winecups have done the same thing. Are they just reacting to the loll and sweetness of fall or are they endangering themselves for spring bloom by doing this now?

858. Ronski - 9/28/1999 9:21:13 AM

Yellow and white is always a great combination, including in a bouquet. I had a moon garden in Brooklyn, all white and silver (if something yellow popped up I usually let it stay), so that I could enjoy it under the street lamps on getting home late. The most famous white garden is probably at Sisinghurst in England. I would put in a few black flowers in my moongarden for a yin-yang effect.

Yesterday we sat on our deck at the new house watching night descend and the bats fly about. The two potted white chrysanthemums glowed well into the evening. We got potted a bit too, on some Soave.

859. Ronski - 9/28/1999 9:23:54 AM

Some bulbs and perennials send up a little growth in the fall. In chrysanthemums, for example, if you do not see a little new green at the crown in autumn there's a good chance the plant will not make it through the winter. Sometimes this can be as a result of weird weather, and also endanger the plant in the process, but in other cases its normal.

860. Dusty - 9/28/1999 9:35:47 AM

The moonlight garden at Sissinghurst Castle:

861. Dusty - 9/28/1999 9:42:10 AM

Sissinghurst

Short discussion and several nice pictures.

862. Ronski - 9/28/1999 9:49:58 AM

Dusty,

Thanks, linkenmeister!

I used to tell people who passed by my garden in Brooklyn that it was a tribute to Vita Sackville-West. A few people got it.

863. Ronski - 9/28/1999 11:05:23 AM

Another thing I wanted to post was in reference to the iris discussion a short while back. I've added the following bearded irises: Silverado, which is a very pale bluish-lavender, next to Beverly Sills, which looks like Beverly Sills: it's large, and salmon-pink colored.

In another spot I have a bunch of Champagne Elegance, which has a white standard and apricot falls, planted next to Vigilante, which has a light bronze standard and dark brown/mahogany falls. I think they go very well together, but cannot be placed next to the pastels noted above. Their blooming seasons just overlap. And Champagne Elegance is touted as a very reliable rebloomer in the fall, though it will take its last bows without Vigilante, which blooms only once. I hope they don't get eaten, either above ground or below. If so, I'll try them again on the deck in a large planter, as I have been forced to do so with some lilies and hollyhocks. Fortunately, it's a large deck, its size being one of the reasons I so liked the house.

864. moonflower - 9/28/1999 11:42:50 AM

Thanks, Ronski, I guess I'll just let the bulbs do what they want and not worry about them. My Blue Girl rose is folly open this morning. It has a rather tea-like smell. Big buds on the Medallion rose and on the Pure Poetry rose. For smell, it's hard to top Tropicana. I love irises and wish I had more room.

865. Ronski - 9/28/1999 12:24:09 PM

I love Medallion, one of my alltime favorites. I'll bet it looks great with the Blue Girl, too.

866. SnowOwl - 9/28/1999 2:58:34 PM

The garden thrill for me this morning is seeing my Comte de Rohan rhododendron open. I bought it, without knowing anything about it, simply because my youngest daughter's name is Rohan and luckily it's turned out to be a very beautiful bush.

Thanks for the Sissinghurt pic and link, dusty. Now I have very itchy feet. I visited Sissinghurst two years ago and would love to be able to go again. It really is a stunning garden. Even though I was there in Autumn it was easy to see just how fabulous it must be at the height of the flowering season.

867. Ronski - 9/28/1999 3:30:57 PM

On a little walk I just saw a New York Aster which reminds me to post this: you can tell New York Aster and its derivatives from New England Aster and its progeny by the fact that the latter closes up a bit at the end of the day, the former stays flat open. The latter also tends to have several rows of petals, while the New York Aster is very single. Their flowers are about the size of a quarter. If they're much smaller than that, you're looking at one of the other countless plants in the aster family that are related to our native Michaelmas Daisies.

868. theDiva - 9/28/1999 3:43:56 PM

Glendajean, I have a confession to make.....last week, when you told me to cut back the foliage on my transplanted perennials? I forgot to do it....but now there's new growth on them (well, on the dianthus, achillea and veronica, anyway) since I moved them. Now what do I do?

869. Seguine - 9/28/1999 4:44:34 PM

How to plant the same tomatoes again next year:

Cut a good-tasting tomato in half, around its 'equator'. Scoop the pulp and seeds into a small jar. Discard (or eat) the rest of the tomato.

Add a little warm water to the jar of pulp and seeds, so that the quantity of liquid is approximately doubled. Swirl the mix around to loosen seeds from pulp. Cover the jar with a lid, but don't tighten it, and set the jar in a dim corner of your kitchen.

Leave the jar undisturbed for 3-5 days, or until a film of slime or mold has formed on the surface of the liquid. Remove the film and pour the liquid through a fine mesh strainer to collect the seeds. Rinse the seeds, rubbing gently under running water until there's no pulp or scum left on them, then tap onto a paper towel and spread them out to dry.

When the seeds have completely dried, put them in a clean, dry container and store them in your refrigerator until early spring, at which point they can be planted.

Expect at least 80% germination or better.

870. moonflower - 9/28/1999 4:45:31 PM

Telling asters apart isn't easy. I have a "celeste" nearby a New York aster and they look quite similar, though the NY seems richer in color. It's heaped with blooms right now. LOVE ASTERS. In front I have a Prince ???? Something-or-other aster just starting. Ronski, I wish Blue Girl were next to Medallion. They're on different sides of the house. I took my camera out today to get the blossoms. I want to remember some garden highlights when winter gnaws.

871. glendajean - 9/28/1999 6:05:01 PM

Diva -- the cutting the foilage back was to help the plant put its energy back into building its roots and settling in its new home. Sounds like yours is doing okay.

I probably wouldn't cut back dianthus. It's incredibly hardy and doesn't like to be watered much nor does it like rich soil.

872. moonflower - 9/28/1999 10:32:42 PM

Some of my dianthus do overwinter, esp if hugging the foundation. I hope there is enough good weather left for more dahlias to FINALLY bloom. Buds have formed or are about to form on three more of mine but I'm afraid time is running against them. It must be this summer's frying heat stunted them.

873. Ronski - 9/29/1999 8:35:23 AM

moonflower,

Do you plant wallflowers, like they do all over England? They're not ubiquitous in North America, probably because our weather is more extreme, but they are growable. The Siberian type, which is not the real wallflower, is more common here than the common English varieties. I like the purple and red shades.

In England, I've bought them off the street in Lewes (in Sussex, and where my hero Tom Paine did much of his writing, thinking, talking, and drinking). They bundle them up, bareroot. You stick them in the ground next to the foundation in the fall, and by May, if not March, they're voluptuous. (I planted them at the homes of my extended family there.)

874. theDiva - 9/29/1999 9:19:42 AM

Glenda

Well, that's a relief. I was a bit worried. Thanks.

Snowowl

Continuing yesterday's conversation....I hadn't realized I'd posted that my mom had penguins at her country house! Certainly gave me a good laugh when I came in this morning. Penguins in NE Pennsylvania, wouldn't that be a feat?!?! I meant raccoons - easily confused, I know.

875. Ronski - 9/29/1999 9:21:03 AM

Global cooling hits PA?

876. theDiva - 9/29/1999 9:28:07 AM

Ronski

I think I was just so amazed that Snowowl could see actual penguins in the wild, a mere 10 minutes from her home, that I momentarily forgot myself. Again.

877. Ronski - 9/29/1999 10:02:14 AM

Too bad it wasn't penguins in PA. It would be the sign of great ski season this year.

878. theDiva - 9/29/1999 10:14:54 AM

hahaha! Ever the optimist. You are too cute!

879. ChristiPeters - 9/29/1999 11:00:59 AM

Hi!

I will have a little more color around my house next year thanks to a generous neighbor.

I had the puppy, Rose, out in our backyard and noticed my neighbor out in her backyard. So I went over to say hello. She was splitting and transplanting her Irises and we got into a nice chat.

About 15 minutes after I had taken Rose in, there was a knock at the door. There was my neighbor, shovel in hand, wheelbarrow loaded with Irises and two Rose of Sharon bushes!

These will be my first Irises and now I have Rose of Sharon on 3 corners of my house. The roses in front extend to the other corner.

Since I am absolutely clueless, can anyone tell me what I should do to help my new plants survive being transplanted in my new yard. Is watering sufficient, or do they need fertilizer or something?

880. Ronski - 9/29/1999 11:06:41 AM

Fertilizer can sometimes burn transplants, unless you use a slow-acting solid one (as opposed to a liquid fertilizer like MiracleGrow). It is probably sufficient to let them settle in over the fall and winter, and then fertilize lightly in the spring. Do water well, however. Perhaps glendajean has an opinion.

881. moonflower - 9/29/1999 12:22:33 PM

Ronski, I had one wallflower this year, a yellow one, and I'd like more. I had it in a hot, sunny location which I don't think made it do its best. There's nothing "wallflower"-like about the brightness of its blooms. Many postings ago, I mention "dwarf amaryllus." I was wrong. What I have turns out to be in the gladiolas family. My second one opened earlier this week. The mini-rose I transplanted to a sunnier locale is sparse-looking but its twigs are still green--hope that means it will make it!

882. glendajean - 9/29/1999 1:42:55 PM

Christi P --

First, make sure the soil is well prepared. Buy a bag or two of compost with manure (the manure has already aged with the rest of the compost and is usually less than 10% of the total).

Second, water well (as Ronski said). Your plant shouldn't float in water, but it needs to stay moist for a couple of weeks. Let the water hose run very slowly on each plant for a good period of time.

I agree with Ronski about waiting till spring to feed your new plants. I try to rely more on composting and keeping the soil rich in organic materials. Fish emulsion (smells bad, but that goes away soon) is an excellent organic fertilizer, btw. A couple of feedings a summer works well.

I am not a strict organic gardener, but I always wary about using chemicals in my garden.

BTW, rose of sharon (kin to hibiscus) grows large in Texas and takes the sun well. Make sure that you don't plant it too close to the house or other plants. IOW, give it room to grow.

Irises, oth, can be fed with tomato food (what is it, Bubbaette, 5-5-5 or something like that?). After they've been in the ground a couple of weeks, you might want to give them a bit of a feeding (don't overdo it, and always water well when you do use plant food). The irises are forming the flowers for next spring now, inside the rhizome (a word I will forever have to look up for its spelling).

As we talked about before, make sure the rhizome (the yam-like root) is not completely covered. Give them a good soaking, but they shouldn't be standing in water or they'll rot. Give them some air to breath, too. They don't like being bunched up too close to other plants.

Oh, and enjoy.

883. ChristiPeters - 9/29/1999 2:04:29 PM

thank you very much!!

I will take all of your advice to heart. I knew about Rose of Sharon growing large in Texas. I see it all over the place here and already had one well grown bush on one corner when I bought the house. That's one of the reason I wanted more. We put them well out, anticipating them growing higher than the eaves. We also placed them so they will get the water from the roof spouts, but won't get washed away.

I am trying to chose plants that I can see do well by observing other people's gardens. Irises are all over the place here. I also want some crepe myrtle (spelling) which is apparently very hardy as I see it being used for highway median landscaping! Beautiful and hardy - what a great combination!

BTW, the roses in front of my house are doing terrific, too!

(I may get the hang of this yet)

884. Bubbaette - 9/29/1999 2:11:14 PM

Glenda

Although I try to rely mainly on compost, during the producing season for veggies, I used Peter's All Purpose plant food, which is 20-20-20. It's mixed with water but I've never had a problem with it burning roots or leaves. I've only used it twice this summer when the veggies started looking a little peaked.

885. glendajean - 9/29/1999 2:36:22 PM

Bubbaette -- veggies need a little extra.

886. Ronski - 9/29/1999 3:04:54 PM

Conifer Update:

I've made a place for an evergreen by the front of the driveway, next to the little garden I've made of native or hybrid native plants (mostly asters at the moment). I've decided on a balsam fir, since I should be able to get one in November when they start selling live Christmas trees with rootballs for planting outdoors. I want a large one. It will smell nice when we pass by it.

I've also decided to get seedlings in quantity, probably from Musser's Nursery in PA, by mail. I want to diversify the woods around the house, since the majority hemlocks are so threatened by the adelgid.

The adelgid will attack pines and firs, too, but I still think it is worth a try. I would not want to see the area denuded of conifers in five years.

I can't get any red spruce, which is what I wanted, but I can get white spruce that grows in Canada, Maine and the Adirondacks (I think), and that is pretty close to native. I can also get balsam fir seedlings (native, though much more plentiful farther north), red pine (also native, though not plentiful), and white pine, both native and widespread in our region.

I will also have to protect them against browsing deer, which will take some effort on my part. But I think there might be a nice payoff. I'm going to interplant the seedlings among the old growth, and thin out some of the existing trees.

I'm also getting some pinyon pine seedlings to plant around the house, where I have some non-native ornamentals. They're good to zone five, so I should be okay.

887. SnowOwl - 9/29/1999 3:12:57 PM

Diva,

I did wonder a little about the penguins, although I conjured up a vision of your mother as some sort of duchess, in a stately country home complete with a private zoo.

The garden news today is that all 48 of the tomato seeds I planted are up now Of course it will be several weeks before they're ready for planting outside but it's great fun to watch them progressing.

Christi, one of the great things about gardening is getting to know other gardeners and you'll find them all to be generous, delightful people. I often come back from walks around the neighbourhood laden with cuttings and odds and ends of bulbs and perennials that people give me. You should be warned that gardening's like a drug, you'll find yourself looking for more and more space to plant things. My ambition now is to have a smaller house and a bigger garden. Of course, I'd also need a bottomless purse so I could indulge myself by buying all those things I drool over but have no space for.

888. SnowOwl - 9/29/1999 3:15:13 PM

Ronski,

Your place sounds like a real paradise, but what on earth is adelgid?

889. Dusty - 9/29/1999 3:20:17 PM

Wooly Adelgid

The hemlock woolly adelgid (Adelges tsugae Annand), is a small aphid like insect that feeds on several species of hemlock (Tsuga species). It was introduced into North America in Asia, its homeland. It has been recognized in the United States since at least 1924. By sucking sap from the young twigs, the insect retards or prevents tree growth causing needles to discolor from deep green to grayish green, and to drop prematurely. The loss of new shoots and needles seriously impairs tree health. Defoliation and tree death can occur within several years. It is a serious threat to the hemlocks not only of Hemlock Gorge, but all of New England.

890. Ronski - 9/29/1999 3:21:55 PM

The pine adelgid or wooly adelgid is a small insect that looks like white scale. It is especially fond of Canadian hemlock, which is the most plentiful evergreen in our area. A species of Japanese lady bug, much smaller than our native lady bug, has been released in several forests in North Carolina and elsewhere to see if it will eat the adelgid. We hope so. If it works, the lady bug will be released in the Northeast as well.

I have noticed that the new growth on some hemlocks is looking pretty good, as are many of the younger seedlings, so all may not be lost. If you have just a few hemlocks, you can spray them with a dormant oil, which helps, and I may do that near my deck. But of course I can't begin to do it elsewhere in the woods, the trees are too tall for one thing.

891. Dusty - 9/29/1999 3:26:36 PM

I copy-and=pasted, but I presume the original had a typo and it should be into North America from Asia

892. SnowOwl - 9/29/1999 3:28:04 PM

Thanks for the information. I was totally confused by the references to hemlock. The only hemlock I know is the poison hemlock, which is a noxious weed here, and I couldn't understand why anyone would want to save it. Now I realise that Ronski's talking about something else entirely.

893. moonflower - 9/29/1999 5:01:21 PM

In today's snail mail, I got Spring Hill's Select & Antique Rose catalogue. I'M GOING MAD!!! I found four roses that I must have
but don't know where to put them. It's like if I give space to one thing, I have to do without something else. GRRR.

894. glendajean - 9/29/1999 6:04:38 PM

Rose catalogs are the sweetest soft porn.

Ronski -- Create a conifer garden on your property. They're breathtaking, particularly in winter.

895. JudithAtHome - 9/29/1999 6:08:27 PM

GJ:

Get thee over to the Stories thread...evidently writing like Dr. Suess doesn't compare favorably with channeling Cheever!

896. moonflower - 9/29/1999 7:37:45 PM

The roses I ordered were "old fashioned" roses: Mirandy, Helen Traubel, Queen Elizabeth, and Crimson Glory. ALL from my childhood and a sweet welcome back I shall give them. Garden surprise: new bloom on my mullen. Had been going great guns till late July, then went quiet, and now has blooms.

897. dusty - 9/29/1999 8:06:27 PM

No one asked for this, but I thought it was beautiful.
It's called "Gaiety Girl", I think a variety of scoparium

898. Thoughtful - 9/30/1999 9:02:00 AM

Don't have a wallflower, but I've been one a few times!

Here's a link for our snowowl on eastern hemlocks which make up a good chunk of our coniferous forests here in New England as well.

899. Ronski - 9/30/1999 10:16:56 AM

glenda,

Great minds think alike. All last night I was rethinking what to do with a spot near the house that isn't working with what I had planted there, and suddenly I got the idea to put those pinyon pine seedlings there. Now I'll add some other evergreens, and perhaps some heaths and heathers. I have to be careful because of the deer. It's amazing how they will eat even the coarsest, scratchiest bush if they're hungry enough. But I love gardens that are made of up of different shades of green, which you can do with evergreens. Heaths and heathers add touches of white, pink, bronze, purple, without upsetting the basic green theme. And evergreens are indeed wonderful in the snow.

900. Ronski - 9/30/1999 10:30:00 AM

I wanted to report that the trees are showing quite a bit of color where we live, northwest of New York City. The color is most pronounced up in the mountains, as usual, though there is good spotty color in the valleys, too. It is early this year, no doubt because of the drought, and looking better than we expected probably due to the late rains.

Just before you get to our house there is a hairpin turn and a trail that leads to a hidden lake. On the curve of the roadside there is a row of small sassafras trees, with their multi-colored, drooping leaves looking like children's mittens hung to dry by a fire. Next to them is an old pine. The red maples (swamp maples - Acer rubrum) are also changing. Down on the Thruway I saw one that was turning the color of chianti.

901. Thoughtful - 9/30/1999 12:22:00 PM

Ronski, I've had great success with hangin out bars of ivory soap in plants that the deer like. Works very well at keeping them at bay.

902. Ronski - 9/30/1999 12:35:17 PM

Thoughtful,

Thanks. I had heard that but never tried it. I'll do so. I think I'll also try some of those pellets they sell.

903. theDiva - 9/30/1999 12:36:48 PM

Ivory soap? I must tell my mother (the duchess). The deer love to nibble on her peach trees and several very tall blueberry bushes surrounding her pond.

904. Thoughtful - 9/30/1999 12:41:34 PM

In fact, one woman at work tried it and it kept the deer away. She had company coming and didn't want to ugly up her garden with the soap so she took the bars away. She forgot to put them back that night and the next day her plants were eaten.

Also, be sure to change the soaps every 6 mos or so as they lose their fraygrants -- oops! -- fragrance over time.

905. theDiva - 9/30/1999 12:44:23 PM

You think that would work on Japanese beetles?

906. Thoughtful - 9/30/1999 12:45:11 PM

They've started a new season of Christopher Lowell for any decorating fans out there -- used to be called Interior Motives on the discovery channel. Check this out.

907. Thoughtful - 9/30/1999 12:50:28 PM

No, but we have had success with BT for Japaneses beetles -- won't get them all, but it will cut the population considerably -- that and not growing things they like... I haven't had a single potato bug since I stopped growing potatoes! ):-)

908. theDiva - 9/30/1999 12:54:31 PM

BT?

I saw a few on my new Rose of Sharon this summer, and plucked them off. I wonder whether they're the reason it looks so spindly.

909. Ronski - 9/30/1999 12:58:42 PM

In addition to spreading conifers around, I want to add a lot of blueberry bushes. They are native to the area, and will tolerate a bit of shade, which we have plenty of (unless the hemlocks die). Of course, I expect the deer will enjoy more fruit than we will ever see, but I know how to share.

Then again, our friend Bruno is in all likelihood like most bears very fond of blueberries. I can seem him now, purple-faced and engorged, climbing up the tree next to the deck, asking "Any smoked salmon to go with that?"

910. Thoughtful - 9/30/1999 1:42:00 PM

Ronski, Dad had wonderful blueberries the first couple of years they lived here, but then the trees grew too high around them and the birds learned where the blueberries were. So they disappeared even without Bruno's help.

911. janjon - 9/30/1999 2:43:47 PM

Whoever gave me the green tomato recipes somewhere up above, thanks. They both worked well.

912. Thoughtful - 9/30/1999 3:18:53 PM

From today's NY Times on Rose of Sharon:
Rose of Sharon Abloom


Q. Will the blossoms on my old-fashioned rose of Sharon bush be even more plentiful next year if I pick them?

A. Old-fashioned single-flowered rose of Sharon (Hibiscus syriacus) can be counted on to bloom profusely in mid- to late summer, even -- indeed, especially -- if you ignore it completely. But before you get all excited, bear in mind that this is also true of a great many weeds.

Left to its own devices, rose of Sharon will make lots of rather untidy-looking branches, eventually becoming 10 to 15 feet tall with lots of small red, white, pink or lilac-blue flowers blooming on the new growth. You'll get a more shapely plant and larger, albeit fewer, flowers if you prune it severely in early spring, cutting back the previous year's growth to three or four buds.

Deadheading will not affect next year's bloom, but it will prevent this rampant spreader from making seeds. Or you could plant an improved longer-blooming variety that is less fertile by nature.

Among the many choices are Paeonaeflorus, a double pink; Helene, a red-centered white, and the large, pure-white Diana. Sources include Louisiana Nursery, 5853 Highway 182, Opelousas, La. 70570, (318) 948-3696, catalog $6, with an unusually wide selection, and Bluestone Perennials, 7211 Middle Ridge Road, Madison, Ohio 44057, (440) 428-7535, free catalog.

913. theDiva - 9/30/1999 3:22:04 PM

Thoughtful

Thanks.....three or four buds! Severe pruning is right. Wow.

914. glendajean - 9/30/1999 6:04:56 PM

Ronski -- I've seen 3 or 4 conifer gardens, and one very lovely heather garden (none formal in design). Conifers of varying shapes & sizes are incredibly architectural, and varied in shade and texture. They provide an excellent wall around a pocket space of grass and open sky, and make you feel as if you've entered an enchanted place. Good luck in planning your site. I envy you.

915. dusty - 9/30/1999 6:47:51 PM

Janjon
You're welcome

916. moonflower - 9/30/1999 7:11:45 PM

How I loathe Japanese beetles and how wonderful it is to see my roses without the telltale holes in the petals from those bugs! Today before I went to work I took my usual garden tour (gives hope before starting in yet again) and there it was--the long-awaited dahlia had bloomed--don't know variety: reddish-purple with bright yellow center.
Hope we have a warm autumn here in Penn. so the others also get a chance to open.

917. dusty - 9/30/1999 7:55:13 PM

918. ChristiPeters - 9/30/1999 11:34:21 PM

My rose of sharon is has the violet flowers. I think they are lovely and they are blooming now. I have no idea what color the two my neighbor gave me will be. I didn't want to sound rude and didn't ask her. It'll be fun to see them next year. (assuming I keep them alive of course)

919. SnowOwl - 10/1/1999 3:09:10 AM

After the discussion of wallflowers here earlier I fell prey to temptation at the nursery today and came home with a new perennial wallflower, Erysimum semperflorens Maur Joy. According to the
label the individual blooms on this change colour almost daily, ranging from oranges and yellows through to mauves and purples. Unfortunately, I also found several other things I simply had to have and consequently have come home with an empty purse and a full weekend of gardening ahead of me.

920. moonflower - 10/1/1999 8:27:42 AM

SnowOwl, I find nurseries to be LETHAL in terms of my budget, but there is something thrilling about them--one treasure hunt after another.

921. Dusty - 10/1/1999 8:38:57 AM

922. Dusty - 10/1/1999 8:42:34 AM

For Ronski:
Deer Resistant plants

923. Dusty - 10/1/1999 8:43:58 AM

Hmm, I see that posting images in a table can affect a future post. Homework time.

924. Ronski - 10/1/1999 9:33:59 AM

Dusty,

Thanks for the list. I think I saw that once before but did not save it.

I noticed it did not have clethra, which is supposed to be resistant. I planted two of those last weekend, a white and a red. There is also a pink. They are small bushes, aka "sweetspire" I believe, are native to the E. U.S., bloom late (August), like some wetness, and are loved by hummingbirds. They're available in several of the major catalogs.

I've also planted hellebores, which I would anyway, but they are on that list and supposedly ignored by deer. I think I've noticed one leaf eaten, but that was all.

* * * * *

We have friends living in a nearby town two mountains over who work where my partner does, and though their house is in a small, old suburban developement (as opposed to the woods, like us), they have a bear, too. They've seen him three times this summer. He just strolls past their dining room window without a care. He does have a red tag in his ear, so someone is monitoring him. Our bear, Bruno, has no tag, presumably just a free spirit.

925. Fraaankster - 10/1/1999 2:53:47 PM

I finally got my new lawn going and it's looking great so far, sans a couple of bald spots where nothing is growing, not even weeds. In a week or two, it's out to the nearest Homebase or Home Depot to look for a good push mower.

926. Fraaankster - 10/1/1999 3:05:51 PM

One more thing on that lawn ...

I have a neighbor who has jumped on the bandwagon and is now helping me with watering this new lawn when I can't get around to it. Unfortunately, this guy seems obsessed with chemical spraying of one type or another. I can't seem to make him understand that the bugs he doesn't seem to care for are not harmful at all, and actually a good sign that what this once mostly dirt lot, is now thriving with life.

How do I get through to him, any thoughts anyone ?

927. glendajean - 10/1/1999 5:01:28 PM

Fraaaank -- well, if it was in Texas, you could fire your shot gun as a warning.

Sometimes it's tough to convince well meaning folk that their good intentions aren't helpful.

928. moonflower - 10/3/1999 9:01:53 AM

Good morning, all. If any of you is looking for a nifty rose for next year, consider "pure Poetry. Mine is having its fall renaissance right now. It has subtle color changes as it ahes, now an almost watermelon-pinkish color. For some reason bugs left it be this summer (not the case with my medallion rose--grrr!). For a blue that doesn't want to quit--Russian sage.

929. dusty - 10/3/1999 9:27:36 AM

Russian sage (Perovskia atriplicifolia)

930. moonflower - 10/3/1999 1:03:43 PM

Thanks Dusty. My Russian sage looks more blue than the pic. I hear these things can grow pretty big but mine is only about 16 inches (maybe since it's in its first year). If my moonflower (3 more blossoms last night!) self seeds, I will be drowning in moonflowers next year. My house will be swallowed by vines. Too much of a good thing? Hardly.

931. dusty - 10/3/1999 3:33:10 PM

More like this?

932. bubbaette - 10/3/1999 4:27:35 PM

I got a new bed dug and planted -- 8' x 3' between a low cobblestone retaining wall and the sidewalk. Underneath are about 20 daffodils, 6 giant hycinth, and 40 crocus. On top are 18 pansies, crown blue, blue and white, and yellow. I edged the bed with cobblestones and river rocks and pebbles. Closer to the house where I planted tulips and hycinths last year, I put in another 3 hycinths, 10 apple blossom tulips, and 8 crocuses. That's planted over in 18 "shades of lilac" pansies. I have another dozen pansies for planters by the entrance. Last year our pansies made it through the winter, even with a severe ice storm, so I've expanded the plantings.

I feel like I've been beaten with a 2"X4", and I still have 40 daffodils, 15 tulips, 12 crocuses, and 4 hycinths to find homes for. I tried double trenching as you suggested, Glendajean, and think it saved alot of work. Encouraging, though are the number of bulbs that I planted last year that are thriving. I think that with this year's plantings, I will have "enough" of the spring flowers I love and will branch out into later season perennials, with y'alls advice.

933. dusty - 10/3/1999 5:23:45 PM

I'm tired just reading that.

934. bubbaette - 10/3/1999 6:14:39 PM

Dusty

I also washed the windows and curtains this weekend -- a veritable fall frenzy. This one particular spider rebuilding his web by the front door has been displaced twice already. I don't think he's gonna last long where he is, either.

By the way -- it turns out those "fruit" things on my camilias are seed pods. They are spliting open in thirds and each has three little glossy brown seeds about as big as my pinkie nail. If anyone would like to take a chance, let me know and I'll mail you some. Like azaleas they seem to like acid soil and have fairly shallow roots, so I bet just planting these seeds and inch and a half or so with some mulch would produce. I think they're mixed red flowers and red and white flowers from two different bushes.

935. ChristiPeters - 10/3/1999 6:18:30 PM

Early this morning when I took Rose out, there was a squirrel in our yard. I froze so as to have a chance to watch it for a bit before the inevitable dash for the safety of the nearest tree.

It didn't dash.

I put a by now desperate Rose down and she found a spot to 'do her business' immediately then went to investigate the squirrel.

It still didn't dash.

I called Rose to me, picked her up, and took a step toward the squirrel. Finally! up the tree it went. So I shrugged in relief, put Rose down to play a bit before going back in to wake Lil' Darlin' for breakfast.

An hour later, there was the squirrel, on the ground again and obviously in distress. It just crouched there opening and closing it's mouth and heaving as if it were trying to vomit. I walked up to within a foot of it and it didn't move - just crouched a little closer to the ground.

So I called Animal Control. By the time they made it out to my house, the poor squirrel was dead. I'm sorry for the poor critter, and Lil' Darlin' was quite distressed that we couldn't save it.

Animal Control says I'd better treat the yard. Any fleas, ticks, etc which were on the squirrel are probably now in my grass. They'll call with results of the rabies test.

sigh

I guess Rose gets to 'do her business' in the front yard until the exterminators can come out.

It was a depressing way to start the day.

936. moonflower - 10/3/1999 8:54:42 PM

Hi gang--do you know, I get pleasure out of reading all these gardening stories--what people are doing, how they're confronting gardening issues. I seem to be the only person in my neighborhood that has this obsession with gardens. BTW, Dusty, the sage you show, as far as I can tell, may be more like mine, but maybe next year, mine will really take off. AND EVERYONE--tonight I broke a record FIVE moonflower blossoms!!! "Oh happy day," as the Edwin Hawkins Singers sang in 1969.

937. glendajean - 10/3/1999 9:14:52 PM

Bubbaette -- I wish I could have helped you make your bed. That is one of the best parts of gardening (for me). Did I mention that double digging is hard on the back? Sorry.

ChristiPeters -- sad story. Hope it wasn't rabies and glad that you and yours didn't get bit by the squirrel.

Moonflower --Because I am in the process of moving, every trip to the garden is saying goodbye. I know of ten things I should be doing (and will try to do most of it), but my heart isn't in it. Someday I'll spends years and years in the same garden. Thank you, btw, for sharing with us about your garden. It's one of the things I look forward to reading in this thread. (I agree with what you posted about sharing stories -- and those of us in North America even get to relive spring with Snow Owl's posting).

938. dusty - 10/3/1999 9:32:37 PM

moonflower

Well, it wasn't a great picture. In fact, i found it earlier and passed on it, but when the better close-up wasn't the right color, I went back to see if I could find a better picture with a bluer tint. Alas, I failed to find a decent picture. So you'll just have to take a picture of yours and share it with us.

939. bubbaette - 10/3/1999 11:20:23 PM

Christi

Do you have much of a problem with rabies in your area? How creepy -- I think I'd be hesitant to go outside much if it were much of a problem here. I think that the animals most likely to get rabies here in VA are racoons, foxes, and bats -- and we don't have many of any of that type of fauna in my neighborhood. Though I might welcome some more bats, if they help keep the mosquitos down.

Glendajean

double digging is nothing compared to getting the sod up. I've rather neglected the lawn, since it looks fairly green, and am afraid that the primary type of greenery is wire grass. I hate it and it's the worst to get rid of -- any little bit left in the dirt makes new wire grass. I sympathise with you about leaving your garden, but know the new owners will enjoy it. I'm loving the notion of being able to enjoy my planting for many years to come and plan to concentrate on perennials for most of my new planting next year.

940. glendajean - 10/4/1999 7:54:42 AM

Bubbaette -- is wirey grass the same as Bermuda grass? I've dug plenty of those roots up in Texas, and I've seen it in DC too, although it is often used as lawn grass in Texas and I've never seen it used that way here.

The only way to kill it is by Roundup or by putting plastic on the ground in summer and baking it. Digging out the roots works, too, but it's not as effective. As you point out, one little root piece starts the process all over again.

The weed I hate here (particularly in my church garden) is what locals call vine weed. Those roots must be two feet deep. They make pulling dandelions easy in comparison.

941. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 10:04:53 AM

Bubbaette -

I don't know if there is much of a rabies problem here, but there certainly was in West Texas. Our cats and dog all get their rabies and other vaccinations regularly. Rose is on Sentinal and Advantage. The two cats are on Advantage just in case something hitchhikes in on Rose's long coat since they don't go outside. I am not really worried about rabies and I'm treating the yard more as a precaution and to get rid of any fleas or ticks that will have abandoned the squirrel once it died. It's more of an annoyance than anything else.

942. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 10:13:05 AM

My main gardening projects this year are going to be trees and bushes in the front yard.

My one tree out front is obviously ill with several dead branches. I am going to find out if it can be saved. I'll save it if I can and take it out otherwise.

The bushes out front are not where I would put bushes. In fact I really dislike them. However, the problem is location - not any quality of the plants themselves. So I am going to find out if it is more feasible (both expense and outcome) to move them or to take them out and plant new. I hope moving them is practical as I don't want to kill any living thing unnecessarily.

Finally, I want to put in some of those lovely crepe myrtles I've been seeing everywhere - preferably the ones with lavendar-ish blooms.

943. glendajean - 10/4/1999 10:48:46 AM

Christi -- if you're going to move the bushes, now is the time to do it. If you wait till spring, it will be much harder on the plants.

Dig a good hole for them, put in lots of amended soil (heavy on compost & composted manure). Cut back lots of the foilage. And keep the soil moist (not standing water). Good soakings.

944. JudithAtHome - 10/4/1999 11:13:03 AM

Christi:

We have many, many squirrels around here and we have to keep flea control on the lawn all the time. Klaus had practically NO fleas all summer, even tho he cavorts amongst the squirrels all day. I think I found only 3 fleas on him all season. He takes a monthly tablet called Sentinel which is combination heart worm/flea retardent treatment. Our vet swears by it and now, I do, too.

945. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 11:38:58 AM

glendajean -

I'm planning on doing all the tree/bush stuff this winter after the first frost. I am not able to do the digging and bush moving, etc myself and will have to hire someone to do it. So how much I get done is very much a function of cost.

Judithathome -

As I mentioned, Rose is on Sentinal and Advantage. The trees in my back yard aren't big enough to attract squirrels which is why it was unusual to see one. Rose hasn't had fleas since we got rid of the ones she had when we brought her home and I've only seen a tick once (it was on the ends of her fur not sucking on her yet thankgod). The previous owner of my house did not have pets and none of the immediate neighbors do either. The exterminators who got rid of my termites for me checked the yard at my request. They put these white board things out in the grass overnight. When there weren't any fleas or ticks on the boards in the morning, they said the yard didn't need treating. So this will be the first time I have had the yard treated.

It's not a major tragedy or anything - just annoying.

Do you do your yard yourselves? If so, what do you use?

946. Bubbaette - 10/4/1999 11:45:16 AM

Diazanon (sp?) is supposed to be pretty good at taking care of fleas and grubs. It also degrades in a fairly short time so you don't have to worry about the pup a week after spraying.

947. JudithAtHome - 10/4/1999 11:53:10 AM

Christi:

After my post about Sentinel, I noticed Rose was already on it; my redundancy!

I don't personally do the yard :-) but I will ask my husband what he uses on it and let you know.

Yesterday I went out to my mall and discovered several torn tags in the floor and no merchandise where the tags had been; they told me we'd had a rash of thefts last week. That really fries me. One lady said, "Well, you know what people like that will eventually get!" and I said, "Yeah...a bunch of really neat stuff for free." The thouht that these freeloaders may eventually wind up in hell does not make me feel any better.

948. Dusty - 10/4/1999 12:09:55 PM

Justice?

949. JonesAtLaw - 10/4/1999 12:12:48 PM

I did a little tour of the garden this weekend. We just had our first frost. About two weeks early for us. Some of the garden took it hard, but I want to put in a plug for one of our roses. Sea Foam, its a shrub rose with blooms in a floribunda style. The flowers are white with a nice tight form. When frosts first hit, it has a tendency to turn pinkish. The last blooms are the best, blushed with a beautiful color. The plant is bullet-proof if you put in good soil when you plant it. I don't water them, except for what oversprays from the lawn or nearby beds. Its robust and spreading, and so I have to prune it away from the sidewalk quite a bit, even at times when rose pruning is not a good idea. It takes it, and keeps on going. It tends to arch and ramble, like an old rose. I wish I had a nice rock wall or fence to grow it on.

950. JudithAtHome - 10/4/1999 12:22:45 PM

Cute, Dusty....however, some of us think the little buggers are sweet. (and no, I don't mean that in a gourmet sense!)

951. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 12:30:00 PM

Thanks Judith. While I am not up to digging and stuff yet, surely I sould be able to spread some chemical myself instead of calling the exterminators and therefore save some $$.

As for the shoplifters, we can hope that what they eventually get is caught and jailed!

Bubbaette - diazanon, huh. I've heard of it being used for ants. I didn't know it worked on fleas, too. I'll check it out. I need to make sure I have something that will kill fleas and ticks and maybe lice, too.

952. Dusty - 10/4/1999 12:40:26 PM

Sea Foam

953. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 12:41:40 PM

Oh Dusty! Those are beautiful!

I want some!

954. JonesAtLaw - 10/4/1999 12:45:49 PM

Thanks Dusty- great photos! Especially the second one- it shows that blush I was trying to describe.

955. glendajean - 10/4/1999 12:59:24 PM

Christi -- if you can, it would be better to transplant your shrubs while it is cool but not freezing. They'll use the month or so of mild weather to get settled in the new place before they go dormant during the winter. It will make them much stronger next summer during the heat. Just a suggestion. Often the demands of life don't exactly match optimum gardening times.

Jones --thanks for the rose story. So it's already reached freezing in the midwest? And is it dry where you live or have you gotten adequate fall rains?

956. JonesAtLaw - 10/4/1999 1:10:49 PM

We're doing ok on rain. The frost was fairly hard, but I think most of our plants will do ok, lots of them are hybrids of natives and are used to tough weather. Its curtains for our petunias etc.

957. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 2:23:47 PM

glendajean -

really?

It was a local nursery which recommended after the first frost. Remember, I'm in North Texas. I think it only really froze once here last winter, but I don't know if that was normal as it was my first winter here.

hmmmmm....

958. marshame - 10/4/1999 4:06:04 PM

ChristiP

Which direction was does the front of your house face?

959. Thoughtful - 10/4/1999 4:25:47 PM

Most unusual for us -- no frost yet. We usually get one shortly after labor day before it heats up some -- just enough to kill the plant. But this year, still no frost. I'm picking a few tomatoes yet. There are lots of green ones, but the sun is getting too low and the trees next door are shading the plants so they ripen very slowly. But it's still good to have them.

Last night made an italian/vegetarian dish of no-cook tomato sauce. Boil pasta and part-way through add some veggies -- I added carrots and julienned green beans, though the choice is yours. Meanwhile in a bowl mix olive oil (up to 1 Tbls) with 4 chopped, peeled fresh tomatoes -- or I used canned as the real ones I save for eating on salads & sandwhiches. Add 10 sliced black olives, 1 Tbls of grated parmesan cheese, 4 cloves garlic minced, salt & pepper to taste, hot red peppers to taste (I used 1/2 t. ground which was a little too hot for me), chopped fresh basil and parsley. Stir to combine. When the pasta/veggie mix is done, drain and plate, and add the tomato-stuff. The hot pasta will warm the tomatoes.

This is another one of those dishes that just begs to be played with -- vary the seasoning, the veggies, the stuff in the sauce, e.g., green pepper, little button mushrooms, capers, anchovies, etc.

Total cooking time was about 15 minutes. My kind of cooking!

960. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 4:27:18 PM

marshame -

The front of my house faces East. why?

961. Thoughtful - 10/4/1999 4:28:21 PM

Sorry -- brain fog. Make that 2 cloves of garlic! Also, it's a very low cal, low fat meal but tastes yummy. Serve with toasted garlic bread.

962. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 4:29:42 PM

Thoughtful -

no frost? I remember those days when I lived "up North".

It's cooler today, but mostly, I'm still running the AC in the daytime and sometimes at night still too. Frost is a long way away here, I'm thinking.

Your recipe sounds great! I just might try it!

963. marshame - 10/4/1999 4:53:06 PM

Christi

With your house facing east, you will be able to plant just about everything, as that is the best exposure for the North Texas region (North gets shade and "Northers" in the Winter, South and West bake in the sun.

One of my favorite native plants is the Nana Nandina, a dwarf variety of the nandina family. The bushes round naturally and grow only about 2 feet tall. In the fall, the foliage turns a brilliant red. They have beautiful leaves all year. I would recommend NOT planting any holly, except many the dwarf buford variety (I don't care for their gnarly branches, however) or Japanese boxwood. They are nice when they're small, but when they grow - look-out! And with an eastern exposure, your plants will grow as they're get the morning light and afternoon shade.

964. marshame - 10/4/1999 4:56:16 PM

Christi P

Also, I'd stay away from lirope, which is very popular but gets quickly out of control. And the various eunymonous plants, which every nursery carries and which look so good in the nursery, are very prone to mold and various other ailments. Photinia should not be anywhere near the house except as a hedge or barrier. Don't plant anything in front of your windows that can grow higher than 2 or 3 feet.

I'd suggest your drive around to a neighborhood with well-maintained lawns and look at the houses with eastern exposures to see what looks good.

965. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 4:59:37 PM

marshame -

Thanks for the advice!

966. marshame - 10/4/1999 5:02:44 PM

CP
My new house has a landscaped front yard, but nothing in the back except the fence. I do not want a sodded grass yard, so I am also planning and dreaming of my "English Garden" which is the effect I would like to have. Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to start with a truck load of dirt!

967. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 5:05:14 PM

marshame -

If you read backthread, you'll see my personal yard philosophy, but here's the short version - The front yard is for show (landscape! flowers!, etc), the backyard is for the kiddos (and me!) to wiggle their toes in the grass and play (lawn, border flowers, pool)

968. glendajean - 10/4/1999 5:23:09 PM

ChristiP -- I don't think oaks like being planted in the fall, but most perennials & trees do well with it. Check out the Neil Sperry book. He should have an opinion, and he's the word on Texas planting.

Marshame --the nandina is kin to bamboo. It's a lovely plant, and you're right about it's coloring. Growing up in Texas, I was only used to holly shrubs. There are some wonderful tall holly trees in my neighborhood here in DC, and I take cuttings of it to use for Christmas decorations in my house (there are two tall hollys on my property line). But I never walk barefoot by the hollys.

I am big on garden smells -- that's why I always keep a full bed of herbs, grabbing rosemary or lavendar for a whiff as I putter around in the garden. I was told that even Arp Rosemary that grows so well here in DC won't survive an Indiana winter.

The other pungent plant I'll miss is English Boxwood. There is an old plant in my small backyard, on the side of an incline, that was left to grow up as a wild bush. When one enter's the Bishop's Garden at the National Cathedral, or takes the boxwood lined walk at Dumbarton Oaks in Georgetown, the smell of English boxwood is overpowering. The Japanese varities common in Texas have almost no fragrance. A beautiful plant.

Yew is the most common plant here (again, totally missing from Central Texas). It's so functional, providing evergreen hedges, fairly hardy to all kinds of weather. But it must be tamed in some fashion, and once it gets too big, it's a bear to bring it to a manageable size. It's growth, like boxwood, is on the edge, and its limbs can get long and extended.

969. marshame - 10/4/1999 5:35:02 PM

GlendaJean

Thanks for the warning on the yew. I was admiring it at the nursery, thinking about it against the garage wall. Have you heard my tale of woe about losing my mind and planting pyracantha? Removing that plant cost me dearly (the infamous pick axe wound that was 5 months in the healing.)

Christi

Re your philosophy, I think that is an excellant plan. But for where I am in life (thank God I left the pool and spa behind at the "old house!) I would like a back yard that is a personal retreat: different garden "rooms" to tend and places to rest, reflect, listen to the fountain, etc. etc. I am going for flower and shrub beds, with a few ornamental trees, around which a meandering path of gravel or mulch will wind. I have bought a few pieces of old architectual finds (a wrought iron gate, some large urns, etc.) to add to the gardens and provide a focal point for each "room."

Ah, but it's all a dream for now. Next spring, I attack, with vigor!

Then again, I may just call in a landscape architect to do the hard part (such as adding that truckload of dirt) and I will add the shrubs and flowers at my leisure. With the mint I will save not having to maintain a pool and spa, I could afford to bring in a professional to at least help me design the yard.

970. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 5:36:58 PM

glendajean - "I don't think oaks like being planted in the fall, but most perennials & trees do well with it. Check out the Neil Sperry book."

???

Who said anything about planting oaks? The only 'trees' I plan to plant this year are crepe myrtles.

The front lawn of my house slopes down to the street. This is begging for a display of flowers, imho. Right now, I have roses along the front of the house. I love them, but I think they need company.

971. marshame - 10/4/1999 5:38:25 PM

Christi

Pansies.

Plant them now and they'll last through to the late spring. they look best when massed together.

972. glendajean - 10/4/1999 5:51:43 PM

Sorry, ChristiP. I had no idea what you were planting. I was saying that the only restriction against planting a tree in the fall that I am aware of was of oaks. They don't seem to like it.

If your temperatures are hot, then it would make sense not to transplant a large plant. The heat will sap it. But if you in the low 70s & cooler at night, then it's a great time to plant, allowing root growth before the dormancy of winter. Since you don't live in a cold climate, you have more of a luxury of waiting, I suppose. But when I lived in Texas, I found that summer heat on new plants could be deadly, and I wanted my trees, shrubs, perennials to have their best shot by planting in fall. I always planted herbs (like thyme) in the fall, too.

For your front yard, try Shasta daisies, rocket snap dragons (annuals, I usually planted them in October so that they were peaking in early summer. They don't like hot weather all that much), bluebonnets (planted now, either plant or seed). Bluebonnets are native lupines. I used to get pink colored ones from a native plant nursery in Austin. Larkspur seed (planted now) grows into tall spikes of purple, white, and pink blossoms. Perfect place for irises, too. Asters & chrysanthemums will give you some fall color. Verbenas work great on front borders. Trailing lantana take the heat (but can be intrusive). There's always salivas, for the heat. I'd pick the Mexican Sage (it blooms late summer, early fall), the small blue-purple spiked sage, and perhaps the purple Indigo Sage.

973. SnowOwl - 10/4/1999 6:03:36 PM

Jones,

I have 2 Sea Foams, the shrub form and a climbing form. I recently moved the shrub from where it was, sprawling all over a path and catching me every time I passed, and have now planted it at the foot of the climber. It's not one of my particular favourites, but it has certainly earned its place in my garden. I particularly like the way it blooms quite well in semishade and it lightens up quite a dark corner for me.

I've just been out touring my garden and, as usual, I've been mentally compiling a list of my favourite roses. I do this several times a year and each time I do it the list changes. At the moment, Fruhlingsmorgen is heading the list, followed closely by Complicata, Blanc Double de Coubert and Ispahan.

Most of my rhododendrons are now flowering, or about to flower. Spring bulbs are almost finished with the exception of tulips and ranunculus which are just beginning. There are pansies and violas everywhere, acquilegia (commonly known as granny bonnets) are about to open and delphiniums are up and beginning to grow well. My paeonies have nice fat buds on them and will be out in a matter of days. I covet a couple of tree paeonies but when I priced them the other day the cheapest was around $100 so I managed to resist the temptation.

974. moonflower - 10/4/1999 6:23:37 PM

It's raining softly, such a wonderful sound usually. If people are thinking about plants for next year's garden, even while the fall garden is still doing great things, if you like yellow, there's zagreb coreopsis. I have moonbeam coreopsis too, very airy, light. And for blue, which I really like in a garden, there's plumbago and blue salvia. In fact, blue salvia is going to be a permanent friend in my garden.

975. JudithAtHome - 10/4/1999 6:49:16 PM

So, GJ...how's the packing coming along?

976. dusty - 10/4/1999 7:18:37 PM

This is pretty. It looks nice as a large picture, so I did it as a thumbnail.

Fruhlingsmorgen
(Click for fullsize)


Snowowl, I found the phote on a site about roses in New Zealand, so i thought you might be interested, if you don't already know about it. You can find it here

977. dusty - 10/4/1999 7:55:51 PM

Complicata


Blanc Double de Coubert


Ispahan (aka Isfahan)

978. JudithAtHome - 10/4/1999 8:16:55 PM

dusty:

The first one translates as Spring Morning. Really lovely.

979. SnowOwl - 10/4/1999 8:35:17 PM

dusty,

Thanks for the pics and the link. Fruhlingsmorgen is a truly beautiful rose, the first time I saw it I was driving past a nursery and there was one standing outside on the footpath. I almost caused a traffic accident by craning my head around for a better look. I've got a real weakness for single roses so of course I just had to have it.

980. SnowOwl - 10/4/1999 8:56:06 PM

For those who like blue flowers in the garden I can recommend corydalis flexuosa "China Blue". This is a very pretty perennial which does well in sun or shade. It has ferny foliage and in Spring is covered with sky blue flowers. It also spreads very readily and can rapidly cover bare areas underneath shrubs and trees.

Another blue-flowered ground cover is Ajuga, in particular, "Jungle Beauty" which has nice spires of deep blue flowers. I use it to cover a difficult patch between hedges and path, where nothing else other than weeds will grow. While it spreads very rapidly it's easily kept under control and doesn't become a nuisance the way some ground covers do.

981. moonflower - 10/4/1999 9:54:29 PM

Thanks, SnowOwl, those blue beauties sound like they'd fit right in in my garden. There are so many gorgeous roses, I'd like to have only a billion or so, but for me, the queen/king of roses remains Peace.
Never was a rose more accurately named. Also have one called Desert Peace which is lovely, too.

982. ChristiPeters - 10/4/1999 11:42:36 PM

glendajean -

Oh, ok, I understand now. Thanks for the advice and the suggestions. Being a neophite at gardening, I welcome all suggestions. I am going to be doing this in baby steps, however. My time, my budget, and my strength are very limited right now.

Love all the pictures everyone!

983. ee - 10/4/1999 11:50:05 PM

It smells like the millenial flower is almost in bloom.

984. Ronski - 10/5/1999 9:04:31 AM

Per our past discussion of irises in which I mentioned Louisiana Iris, here is the Red Iris (I. fulva), native to the Mississippi Valley, which is probably the main genetic component of the Louisiana strain. It is the reddest iris to be found anywhere in the world, as this picture amply illustrates:

985. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:08:32 AM

corydalis flexuosa
China Blue

986. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:16:44 AM

moonflower
While I was looking for Fruhlingsmorgen, I stumbled across another picture, and I remeber thinking, "Wow, that one's impressive." So I look for Peace today, and it was the very rose I has exclaimed over last night.



Desert Peace™

987. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:19:56 AM

Is the run on?

988. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:22:54 AM

Yikes, the original Peace was smaller; increasing the size made it blurry. let's try again at original size:

989. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:24:03 AM

There's something...incongruous about a millennial run in Home and Garden

990. theDiva - 10/5/1999 9:26:24 AM

I can dig a millennnnnnnnnnnnnnial run in the Garden thread.

Dig? Garden? Get it?


hahahahahahahaha!

haha





ha




ahem.

991. theDiva - 10/5/1999 9:26:47 AM

Good morning, guys.

992. Dantheman - 10/5/1999 9:27:27 AM

I dunno. Do you really want to be home for the millenium?

993. theDiva - 10/5/1999 9:28:28 AM

Hi Dan.

Sure, why not? We have already planned an evening of cocooning, complete with extra large behemoth tiger shrimp on the grill.

994. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:29:36 AM

whoops. Don't want to miss out.

Giant shrimp?

995. Dantheman - 10/5/1999 9:30:04 AM

Diva,
An evening of cocooning. Does this mean that you'll turn into a butterfly for the next millenium?

996. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:30:11 AM

Isn't that mutualy exclusive?

997. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:30:35 AM

Giant Shrimp, that is.

998. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:30:54 AM

Ark Ark

999. Dantheman - 10/5/1999 9:30:57 AM

No, giant shrimp is not an oxymoron, but jumbo shrimp are.

1000. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:31:07 AM

Get it?

1001. Dantheman - 10/5/1999 9:31:12 AM

?

1002. theDiva - 10/5/1999 9:31:22 AM

Dan

I can always hope. Maybe then I could quit my day job.

1003. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:31:28 AM

The Betty Boop rose is called by some, the New rose for the Millenium[sic]

1004. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:31:53 AM

Get it?

1005. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:32:16 AM

Well, I was late, but at least I was topical :)

1006. Dantheman - 10/5/1999 9:32:27 AM

Congrats O divine bubbaette on your millenium.

1007. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:33:05 AM

Thank you, thank you all. Please excuse me while I gloat.

1008. theDiva - 10/5/1999 9:33:44 AM

Okay, so lazy bug that I am, I haven't done anything else in my garden since I moved those perennnnnnnnnnnials a couple of weekends ago. But I may be inspired to dig out the vegetable bed and put in some grape hyacinth and lily of the valley this weekend.

But should I wait until the spring to put in ground cover? Here is the question.

1009. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:35:56 AM

Bubbaette

Congratulations!!!

1010. theDiva - 10/5/1999 9:36:33 AM

Cool, Bubb. Congrats.

1011. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:36:58 AM

Hmmm

1012. Dusty - 10/5/1999 9:37:16 AM

No Gorsennial Rose??

1013. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 9:39:48 AM

Diva

What kind of ground cover are you thinking of? I didn't see much of anything for sale (except juniper) when I was at the nursury last weekend.

1014. theDiva - 10/5/1999 9:48:26 AM

Either pachysandra or vinca.

Shit. Meeting. Later.

1015. Ronski - 10/5/1999 9:49:41 AM

Vinca is prettier, im(humble)o.

1016. Thoughtful - 10/5/1999 10:30:20 AM

Christip, for a low-budget garden, the best thing to do is get friendly with other gardeners. That way you can see what looks good, grows well, get lots of advice, and handouts. Most gardeners I know usually end up with stuff overgrowing and are more than happy to share with ardent admirers -- like when the daffodils need separating or like my lily of the valley ground cover which keeps spreading into unwanted areas and so on. Then there are always cuttings which people are willing to part with which can be rooted in with some growth hormone.

I have a wonderfully large euonymous on the side of my house which has a special meaning. A neighbor of my uncle's had a hedge of it and let my Mom cut it to use as greens for the flower arrangements at my wedding. Dad rooted what Mom didn't use and planted it. We transplanted some to our house when we got married and there it is as a wonderful reminder....the only cost was a little time and patience.

1017. Ronski - 10/5/1999 10:51:57 AM

One of the relatively few plants the builder/first owner of our house had planted on the hill was euonymous. I'd been picturing how it would look in the fall ever since we moved in in January. I now get to see it color up. That unmistakable rosy red has started in a lower quadrant, and is moving up. I goes well with the maples and sassafras nearby, which are also changing now, as are some oaks, the tulip trees, and the slippery elms.

Last night I took the scenic route home to avoid a traffic jam on the main highway. The roads go through state land along mountain ridges, hills, and lakes. I saw only two other cars, one runner, and eight deer. No one else. It was misty, basically deserted, and the elevation is high enough that the color was quite pronounced. A series of postcard scenes. It's this little part of Southeastern New York that looks like Vermont.

1018. JudithAtHome - 10/5/1999 10:58:53 AM

When I lived in Northern Maine, we would go on drives off the beaten path. On one, in the fall, we drove down this lane that was overgrown with birch trees on either side; they met overhead and formed a tunnel. The leaves had turned an electric yellow and with the sun filtering through, it felt as though we were driving through the middle of a lemon.

1019. ChristiPeters - 10/5/1999 11:03:53 AM

Thoughtful - "Christip, for a low-budget garden, the best thing to do is get friendly with other gardeners."

Yes, that's exactly what I have been doing. Upthread, I recounted how I got two rose of Sharon bushes and some Irises from my neighbor after chatting with her about her lovely garden and landscaping. All last spring I rubbernecked at peoples gardens here in town. I also got Neil Sperry's book on JudithAtHome's advice (I think it was her). I want to plant mostly native and plants well-adapted tot his climate. the ultimate goal is to have a pretty, but mostly low-maintainance garden of perrenials and flowering bushes and trees. I am not one of those who craves change. So I will be content to get a nice look and then maintain it.

1020. Ronski - 10/5/1999 11:06:20 AM

Judith,

Sounds wonderful, and reminds me of dirt roads I've been on in Vermont, which would trail off into nothingness (if in a car you have to back up). They are like the image used in one of Robert Frost's poems to describe the foundation of long-gone house, slowly "closing like a hole in dough."

1021. JudithAtHome - 10/5/1999 11:09:02 AM

Christi:

The book reco was from glendajean, though I do love Neil!


Ronski:

I read a lot of Frost while I was in Maine....

1022. theDiva - 10/5/1999 11:11:52 AM

Vermont.........SOB

1023. glendajean - 10/5/1999 1:15:01 PM

Indiana ... bigger Sob

1024. theDiva - 10/5/1999 1:23:55 PM

awwwwww..........

Is this too awful for you, dear?

1025. glendajean - 10/5/1999 1:33:48 PM

I am meeting with the first realtor this afternoon (so he can tell me how much I am going to have have painted/repaired and how little I can sell the house for). I think it's called setting boundaries around the seller's expectations.

1026. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 1:58:33 PM

Glenda

I thought that the market for houses in your area was so tight that houses are going for more than the asking price. Not so?

1027. Dantheman - 10/5/1999 2:03:44 PM

bubbaette,
Even so, taking care of little cosmetic things is worth quite a lot on the sales price.

1028. Bubbaette - 10/5/1999 2:06:00 PM

Like moving the washing machine off my front porch?

1029. Dantheman - 10/5/1999 2:07:52 PM

bubbaette,
Depends upon whether the savings in using rain water makes up for it. It would probably improve the price a Jeff Foxworthy fan would pay for it...

1030. theDiva - 10/5/1999 2:33:32 PM

Glenda, don't worry, it's going to be fabulous. I predict that you're going to realize a 20% net profit on the sale.

1031. Thoughtful - 10/5/1999 3:06:53 PM

Driving through yellow leaves -- the one time of year I don't mind rainy days as with the yellow leaves, the sun still seems to be shining.

1032. Thoughtful - 10/5/1999 3:20:14 PM

I was looking for a picture, but the euonymous I have from my wedding is not a burning bush -- though I have those too. It's a tall thing that can grow into a hedge with oval shaped very shiny green leaves which remain through the winter.

1033. theDiva - 10/5/1999 3:22:19 PM

Thoughtful

Nice images you've conjured today. Thanks.

1034. Ronski - 10/5/1999 3:25:41 PM

I also like the way yellow leaves reflect the street lights at night. Where we live now we don't have street lights, but I have my memories.

The town did put up a light halfway down our driveway, however, when the house was built. We pay for it, but apparently they thought our drive was too steep to be safe in the dark, and that the owners of the house might be too stupid to do anything about it. I'm not compaining though. It's a good thing to have, and I like to watch the snow falling through it on winter nights.

1035. moonflower - 10/5/1999 5:38:40 PM

Dusty and all: Our board here is really hopping today! Dusty, THANKS for the rose photos! Just looking at them is vivifying! As for vinca, yes, I love them. I have this one called pacifica that I put in a row before my pure poetry rose. Something sturdy about vinca too, even with the awful heat we had this summer. BTW, I have a white guara which is too unmanageable. I don't want to kill it, but it really ought to be moved. But I read that, because of a long taproot, they shouldn't be moved. Thoughts anyone?

1036. arkymalarky - 10/5/1999 6:51:24 PM

I saw a bobcat today.

1037. Uzmakk - 10/5/1999 8:40:21 PM

Where do you live, Arky? I just finished roasting my first batch of red peppers, it being the pepper roasting season.

1038. glendajean - 10/5/1999 9:33:38 PM

Friends -- our beloved Wabbit has created a sub-thread for Recipes. I'll try to find our other previously posted recipes and paste them in. Please add as you can. I'm sure that Bubbaette can get another millennial on salsa alone!

1039. SharonSchroeder - 10/5/1999 10:09:34 PM

My husband has just been diagnosed as a type 2 diabetic and also has been diagnosed with M.S. He must lose weight. They have him on a diet with whole gains very little red meat, no white flour and no potatoes (among other things). He is doing really well about not complaining but I am out of recipes and know he will begin to hate it if I don't get some variety. Anyone got any ideas? Or any recipes? Or any websites?

1040. SnowOwl - 10/5/1999 11:25:05 PM

Sharon,

I'm sorry to hear of your husband's illness. You could try posting a request here, Epicurious Recipe Swap. I know there has been quite a lot of discussion on diets for people with diabetes in the past and there are many knowledgeable people posting there.

1041. SharonSchroeder - 10/6/1999 12:13:55 AM

SnowOwl, thank you very much.

1042. SharonSchroeder - 10/6/1999 12:22:29 AM

SnowOwl, thank you very much.

1043. Angel-Five - 10/6/1999 12:30:45 AM

redheads.

1044. SharonSchroeder - 10/6/1999 12:36:46 AM

RICKY!

1045. Angel-Five - 10/6/1999 12:37:38 AM

Hey, babes. How you doing?

1046. SharonSchroeder - 10/6/1999 12:39:41 AM

Doing good... how 'bout yourself?

1047. Angel-Five - 10/6/1999 12:47:01 AM

Strangely enough, I seem to be in charge of my environment. I am surrounded by constant temptation. No-one's stalking me. Generally, things are peachy. (stretching angel wings) Glad ta see you back.

1048. Dusty - 10/6/1999 11:10:54 AM

I think there's a missing colon in Snowowl's link above. Perhaps this will work:

Epicurious Food

1049. Dusty - 10/6/1999 11:12:24 AM

What's going on with the time stamps?

1050. Dusty - 10/6/1999 11:13:42 AM

Oops, never mind. Perhaps I need to learn to tell time.

1051. JonesAtLaw - 10/6/1999 11:21:06 AM

Sharon- try this diabetic menu

1052. JonesAtLaw - 10/6/1999 11:25:31 AM

Sharon- try this diabetic menu

1053. theDiva - 10/6/1999 11:31:22 AM

Sharon

I'm so sorry to hear about hubby's troubles. I'll keep him in my prayers.

Now, concerning his diet.

Find yourself a good, basic Italian cookbook....like maybe Marcella Hazan's Classic Italian Cooking. She does a lot with vegetables, fish and chicken; and you can substitute whole-wheat pasta for the usual kind. Ed Giobbi also did a heart-healthy Italian cookbook, and I would think that the dishes would be suited to your needs. Let me see if I can find some links for you.

1054. JonesAtLaw - 10/6/1999 11:32:00 AM

Sharon you might try this also:dibetic resources,.
My Dad is a type II diabetic. He and Mom have found that some local bakeries are making pies etc. which are ok for diabetics. It's nice because you eventually miss some foods, like desserts. I would advise your husband to do his homework, because there are so many things to learn to help care for yourself. The good news is that diabetes is so much better managed these days and there are so many more resources to work with. Does your husband see an internist or GP with an interest in diabetes? That helps, too. There will be lots of little changes in store for your husband, but they aren't as drastic as they once were. Good luck.

1055. theDiva - 10/6/1999 11:32:27 AM

Ed Giobbi's book

1056. theDiva - 10/6/1999 11:34:21 AM

Marcella Hazan's book

This one is a compilation of two books she wrote back in the 70s; I have this one, plus one of the earlier ones. Great stuff; she is my kitchen goddess.

1057. JonesAtLaw - 10/6/1999 11:35:48 AM

Sharon- one more post and I'll shut up. Diva's idea is a good one. A friend of mine is on the Ornish diet for his heart. No meat and very restricted fats etc. The good news is that he discovered that he loves Indian food, much of which is vegatarian. I hope your husband has a similar experience. Dare to experiment!

1058. theDiva - 10/6/1999 11:38:48 AM

Thanks, Jonesie. I figure it this way....healthful gourmet dining is not an oxymoron if you know your onions....and garlic....and red wine....and tomatoes....

1059. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 12:21:51 PM

Sharon, so sorry to hear about your hubby...MS & diabetes! What an unkind double-whammy!

Dad's been a diabetic for over 30 years now and hubby's on a low-fat diet. Me, I've dieted for at least 150 years now.

Some easy suggestions. In making the switch, look for substitutes of which there are a lot now. Makes the change not seem so drastic:

• Hubby and I found the soy dogs instead of hot dogs not bad if they're the refrigerated kind -- not the frozen ones. We also like veggie burgers. In both cases, be sure to junk them up good with the usual fixings like ketchup, lettuce, tomato, onion, mustard, relish, etc.
  
• Baked yams instead of baked white potatoes are yummy
  
• If he's off the red meat due to the fat content, be sure to check out the healthy/low fat sandwich meats. There's even a low-fat pastrami that hubby likes a lot. Hubby's switched to rye or pumpernickle breads. Worthwhile fetching from a good bakery.
  
• I enjoy the light breads they make even more than the old white breads. They are tasty, high in fiber and two slices have the same calories as one.
  
• We sprinkle butter buds on veggies instead of spreading butter on them. We've also tried some of the pre-mixed spices like Mrs. Dash, but I find they make all the veggies taste alike.
  
• I'll have to look at home. I have a recipe for mixing nonfat dry milk with some stuff into a powder which, when you add water with the cooked veggies, makes like a creamed veggie...a nice alternative to just beans, etc.
  
• Be sure to up the flavor of whatever you're cooking. This means making sure your herbs and spices are fresh and buy really good ones eg real vanilla extract. If you're eating less, you want to be sure that what you eat is worth every calorie.
  
  

  1060. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 12:25:01 PM

  Check out the sugar free products like the puddings, and of course jello. They make for a quick dessert. Also for dessert, of course, is fruit with a dollop of lite cool whip and a short sprinkle of chocolate shots makes for a low-cal, low-sugar, but seemingly luxurious dessert. One I like to make is to layer sugar free jello with layers of fat-free yougurt in a parfait glass. You can keep the flavors the same like strawberry, raspberry, orange or lime...or you can mix flavors as you wish.
  

1061. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 12:26:42 PM

Sorry I forgot to put my toy away.

If he can eat popcorn, I find it a gift of a substitute for other, nastier snack foods, especially the light microwave stuff.

1062. glendajean - 10/6/1999 12:31:47 PM

In the spirit of all this food talk, and it is lunch time in the Eastern time zone ....

Check out the new Recipes! sub-thread. Diva and Snow Owl have added new recipes. Please contribute your tried and true or adventuresome recipes.

1063. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 12:40:44 PM

Be sure to mix veggies together. Beans is beans, but add some pimento or onion and a sprinkling of thyme and suddenly they are something.

We've tried the egg beaters as a substitute for eggs which are lower in calories and of course fat, but find them bland to use as just eggs. However, I use them to make french toast in the a.m. sometimes and that's not too bad. With no sugar though, use the all-fruit spread on the french toast or I sprinkle mine with some equal and cinnamon so it's pretty tasty. (I still use a tiny bit of butter for flavor).

1064. theDiva - 10/6/1999 12:43:12 PM

Kudos for eggbeaters! I use them all the time for baking, and for pancakes and waffles. Never have eaten them scrambled, though.

1065. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 12:48:25 PM

Also, check this out. There are lots of resources on the web for diabetic stuff. I also subscribe to Lifestyle Magazine which is put out by the 7th Day Adventists...or is it Mormons... anyway... it has vegetarian recipes in every issue in addition to stuff about health & nutrition ... this one doesn't preach, else I wouldn't get it.

1066. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 12:56:48 PM

One more and then I'm going.

Check this out for some diabetic recipies as well.

1067. Ronski - 10/6/1999 12:58:51 PM

Sharon,

With both diabetes and MS, it is important for you and your husband to discuss with your husband's physician the benefits of a regular exercise/physical therapy program, if you haven't already done that.

Best of luck to you.

1068. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 1:08:32 PM

I can't help it -- a coupla more hints.

Hubby likes his drink in the p.m., but if I wait and not drink, I get too hungry, but I don't want all those calories -- and diabetics shouldn't drink anyway, so I make myself a virgin mary -- but I like the V8 juice better than tomato juice with a splash of worchestershire sauce and lemon juice. It's filling, but healthy. We also use fat free dressing as a dip for veggie sticks as a snack in the evening. I know you said no white flour for him, but since we eat it, we use melba rounds which are fat free instead of crackers with some low-fat cheese as another snack.

A summer-time drink for me is the Cranberry-Raspberry diet snapple in a tall glass with lime seltzer added.

1069. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 1:11:35 PM

I second Ronski's point. Doc pushes dad like crazy to exercise as it's so helpful in controlling the sugar -- but the MS may complicate that.

Fortunately now there are a lot of drugs without insulin's side effects that can be used in controlling diabetes. Diet is perhaps one of the most important though. I know Dad was able to control it just by diet for many years before he had to start on the meds. He didn't need insulin until he was in his 70s. Of course, he foolishly has never given up alcohol. Sigh.

1070. Ronski - 10/6/1999 1:53:05 PM

People with diabetes or with heart disease are at risk for peripheral vascular disease (PVD), the gradual closing of blood vessels in the extremeties, a very serious problem. There was a report recently about how regular exercise, specifically vigorous walking, may help prevent or even reverse PVD.

With regard to MS, the example of 1976 Winter Olympics bronze medalist Jimmy Huega convinced many of the benefits of exercise for those who have the illness. Huega exercised and even continued skiing for many years after his diagnosis.

1071. theDiva - 10/6/1999 1:59:56 PM

I worked for a woman with MS; she was diagnosed about 10 years ago. The only thing that keeps her going as strong as she is, is her exercise regimen. She swims, takes deep water aerobics and yoga twice a week, and gets a massage every Friday. She swears by this schedule and feels that she'd be in a wheelchair if not for the exercise.

1072. ChristiPeters - 10/6/1999 2:08:20 PM

I like eggbeaters better for cooking than as breakfast too.

However...

1/2 eggbeaters plus 1/2 real egg
diced green pepper
sliced mushrooms
diced onion
fat-free or low fat ham, cut up

scramble all of the above together

scoop 1 to 2 Tbsp of egg mix and an equal amount of low-fat or fat-free shredded cheese of your choice (I prefer sharp cheddar) on a tortilla, roll once, fold over the ends, finish rolling

end result? yummy breakfast burritos - make a whole bunch at a time and freeze them, throw them in the microwave for a quick breakfast you can eat on the run, or serve them up on a plate with more cheese melted on top or use plain lowfat yoghurt as a sour cream substitute and put that plus cheese on top.

1073. Thoughtful - 10/6/1999 2:48:33 PM

Ronski, Dad has PVD and he kept refusing to exercise as it was too painful....until the Dr. threatened to cut off his legs. Dad's been a regular now on the treadmill...he can only manage about 10 min. at a time, but he does it 3 times a day. He doesn't believe it helps, but I see him walking better than he did and his pulse rate has dropped substantially.

1074. Ronski - 10/6/1999 3:11:40 PM

Thoughtful,

Always consult with a physician to be safe (it's surprising the things they know, sometimes), but there was a story on the wires recently about a physician(!) whose PVD was so severe he had a couple of toes amputated, but is now back to normal after following a walking regimen for a few years. The theory is that the oxygenation caused by the exercise makes new blood vessels grow around the blocked ones, restoring other damaged tissue in the process. The old use or lose it business.

1075. arkymalarky - 10/6/1999 5:09:18 PM

Hi Sharon! It's good to see you here. I hope you and your husband are able to find an effective diet and whatever else can help. I'm sorry to hear he's having such tough physical troubles. Each separately is difficult, much less having both diagnosed together.

1076. arkymalarky - 10/6/1999 5:11:38 PM

Uzmakk! I missed your post #1037 last night, but to answer your question, I live in the southern part of the state, sort of close to Little Rock and Hot Springs, but not close enough to be handy.

1077. SnowOwl - 10/6/1999 6:58:30 PM

This morning I've been working in what I grandly and pretentiously call my potager, which in reality is simply an area of 6 small beds, intersected by and surrounded with brick paths. In this area I grow a number of different herbs, and a variety of salad vegetables. I'd like to have more space for veggies, but that would mean giving up some of my precious flower beds, so I stick to what can be grown in a small area and the things I like best absolutely fresh. I grow several different varieties of lettuce, mesclun mixtures, a few carrots and beets, swiss chard, sugar snap and snow peas. This year I'm also trying a few different things, corn salad, chicory, pak choi and red bunching onions which I'm going to grow in a large terracotta pot.

Because I love scented plants I try and grow the things with the nicest smells in places most accessible, so I grow thymes and camomile where I'll walk on them, and rosemary and lavender where I brush against them in passing. This tends to drive my husband mad. He hates bushes billowing across paths, I love them.

1078. moonflower - 10/7/1999 7:30:42 AM

SnowOwl, while they aren't scented, I think they are an herb: nasturtiums, which can be used in salads and elsewhere. I am not crazy about vegetables, so I just enjoy them for the color. The orange ones are particularly festive. If anyone knows of any interesting or uncommon varieties of nasturtiums, I'd be happy to
hear about them. (Dusty, any pics?)

1079. glendajean - 10/7/1999 7:51:28 AM

Snow Owl -- I cannot imagine not having fragrant herbs in my garden. I've probably been indulged by more guests as I break off a twig of this or that and say, "smell this." As I've gotten older, that urge has lessened, but not my passion for the plants or their fragrances.

Moonflower -- I have a neighbor who built three rock walls on a slop in her yard that she filled with orange nasturium, Mexican sunflower and orange cosmos. When I walk up the hill each morning past her terraced beds, I am always cheered by these colors (and frankly, I rarely plant anything orange in my own garden).

1080. glendajean - 10/7/1999 7:52:19 AM

Oops -- two double negatives. Sorry Snow Owl. What I meant to say was I must have fragrant herbs in my garden.

1081. Bubbaette - 10/7/1999 8:15:45 AM

As the weather becomes cooler, bread-baking season arrives. I've posted my prize-winning brown bread recipe in the recipe sub-thread. Give it a try!

1082. Dusty - 10/7/1999 8:33:45 AM

Cooking with nasturtiums

1083. Dusty - 10/7/1999 8:36:39 AM

Red Nasturtiums

1084. Ronski - 10/7/1999 9:54:16 AM

There is an old-fashioned climbing variety of nasturtiums called "Moonglow" that will get to be seven feet if happy, and has wonderful pale, primrose-yellow flowers.

I planted some on my deck this year, but the July drought and heat severely stunted their growth. They are looking a little better now that it is cooler. But tonight we are expecting the first frost, so they may not last much longer.

It snowed in Northern New York and New England yesterday and the day before. This is not unusual, but the two inches in some areas was the most this early for the past 15 years. This not only brightens the hopes of us skiers, but suggests some of the longrange weather predictions of an extremely cold and snowy winter in the Northeast may not be entirely looney.

On the other hand, the Climate Prediction Center in Washington is saying that while a strong La Nina this winter would normally mean a strong likelihood of cold and snow, this has to be balanced with the decade-long trend of warmer temperatures, probably evening things out. They even predict another downright mild winter for the mid-Altantic and South, with the warmest temperatures centered in Virginia and Kentucky.

A forecaster in Colchester, Vermont, however, believes it will be the coldest and snowiest winter in the Northeast in the past century, if not the past several hundred years (going back to the "Little Ice Age," which lasted roughly from 1400 to 1800, and coincided with the "Maunder Minimum" period of low sunspot activity).

1085. Bubbaette - 10/7/1999 10:01:13 AM

I tried growing nastursiums in my front flower bed last summer. Oddly, they didn't do well at all because the soil was *too good*. Evidently, these flowers prefer poor soil.

1086. Ronski - 10/7/1999 10:23:26 AM

Yes, if you heavily fertilize nasturtiums you get beautiful leaves and no flowers. Same with most morning glories.

1087. Thoughtful - 10/7/1999 10:51:58 AM

Ronski, I never believe long-range weather forecasters. I did however run across a wooly bear on my porch the other evening and his middle stripe was about as long as the front stripe, but the back stripe was significantly shorter than the other two.

Anyone got any ideas what that means?

I know, it means I'm nuts for thinking wooly bears know any more than I do!

1088. ChristiPeters - 10/7/1999 10:56:19 AM

Thoughtful -

The tradition I remember is the front stripe is Fall, the middle stripe is Winter and and the end stripe is Spring.

??So maybe it means we have a short Spring??

1089. Uzmakk - 10/7/1999 11:19:28 AM

check, arky.

1090. moonflower - 10/7/1999 11:35:03 AM

Thanks, all, for nasturtium remarks--and Dusty for the pics. Last year, my nasturtiums were crummy. This year, very nice. They must be very weather sensitive. I try to avoid fertilizing them as I've heard too that they don't bloom with fertilizing (very contrary flowers!).
But they start fairly early (mine in June as I recall) and still are going strong. I'd like to try climbing nasturtiums. Ronski, do you need a big trellis or loads of fence space for them?

1091. Ronski - 10/7/1999 11:37:57 AM

No. They are not that vigorous, not as lush as morning glories, for example. The vines are more the size of moonflowers, actually.

1092. Thoughtful - 10/7/1999 12:52:21 PM

Christip, thanks for the info -- maybe it means a late spring. Every year I try to compare wooly bears to see if they all "say" the same thing, but I never seem to come across more than one at a time.

I was going to post my dry mix which makes veggie sauce, but I won't now. Hadn't made it in maybe 10-15 years so when I looked it up, I realized I had forgotten that it call for cutting a lot of butter into the dry mix -- not exactly low-fat as I thought. That's probably why I stopped making it.

1093. Bubbaette - 10/7/1999 2:04:44 PM

Bah Humbug on low fat. Some things should not be low fat.

1094. Thoughtful - 10/7/1999 2:27:55 PM

Yeah, but half the fun of eating veggies is feeling virtuous about eating veggies -- I can't see messing that up with fat stuff--save the fat for the ice cream, chocolate and other worthwhile fatty items.

1095. SnowOwl - 10/7/1999 2:33:41 PM

Thanks for the nasturtium comments and of course, thanks Dusty for the pics. I grow nasturtiums in hanging baskets and have done so for some years. I resisted them for quite a while because in my home town (which is a lot further north and much warmer) they are weeds. I like the flowers in salads, and the immature buds and seeds can be pickled and used instead of capers.

This is the time of the year I plant my hanging baskets, and it is also the time of the year my husband and I almost come to blows. It was his idea that we should have baskets hanging acoss the front of the house, and while I grudgingly admit they do look good, I also think they make our house look a bit like an English pub. The reason basket planting causes tension is because we can't agree on colours. He is a great fan of the traditional red, white and blue, while I much prefer softer shades. As a sort of compromise, I let him plant the 4 baskets which hang in the front, and I keep the ones on either side of the front door (which is actually at the side) for myself where I can indulge my taste for less vibrant colours.

1096. Thoughtful - 10/7/1999 5:07:23 PM

SnowOwl, please keep posting such things. As we narrowly escaped destruction of our tomatoes yesterday p.m. due to frost (we may lose them tonight too) and as I now wake up in pitch darkness knowing that soon the winter winds will blow, it's wonderful to be reminded that elsewhere on the planet, spring's just popping.

1097. moonflower - 10/7/1999 10:49:04 PM

A basket of nasturtiums sounds wonderful. Have a basket of lantana (yellow) that helps in winter. BUT I have not surrendered my garden yet to winter--dahlias, asters, vinca, nasturtiums, impatiens, hyacinth bean, late roses: too many reasons to celebrate fall. Some plants thrive while the Arctic winter of work chills me.

1098. Dusty - 10/8/1999 9:41:40 PM

Kinda quiet here.

FYI, I'll be offline until probably Friday.

1099. ChristiPeters - 10/11/1999 10:10:27 AM

Well, I spent some time with my garden in the cool hours of the morning both Saturday and Sunday. My roses are now nicely pruned with no 'branches' rubbing others anymore. They are also now much much less weed-choked. I'm afraid I've been neglecting them for awhile. &:o(

They look lovely. My back is annoyed with me, but my heart is happy.

However, I think I'll remember to put on gloves and long sleeves next time.

1100. glendajean - 10/11/1999 10:51:45 AM

I hate wearing gloves when I garden, but it's often essential when pruning plants that have thorns (e.g., barberry, roses).

And if you're digging around in the dirt, the dirt's abrasiveness can rip your fingernail cuticles apart.

OTH, part of the pleasure of gardening is feeling the dirt.

I have a couple of pair of rubber gloves for pruning and digging, but when I am just planting or weeding, I often wear thin painter latex gloves (you can buy them in large quantities at hardware stores).

And if you are so inclined, rub hand lotion on before you put it on and you'll get a little beauty treatment in the process. I've done that, but am told it works great.

1101. glendajean - 10/11/1999 10:53:17 AM

Oops, I've never the done the lotion thing, but am told it works.

1102. JudithAtHome - 10/11/1999 11:02:54 AM

We found a great wine yesterday and ordered a case; it's a '96 Toscana by Col Di Sasso and is a sangiovese/cabernet sauvignon mix. We've had it before and decided to make this our winter wine...it's smokey and hearty and goes well with a fireplace. Of course, we have no fireplace but will stay quite toasty with the toscana, nonetheless.

1103. moonflower - 10/11/1999 11:03:44 AM

I hate gloves. But when I'm working with roses, I pay a price for not using them. Two weeks ago I hit a thorn dead on while working with my medallion rose on the side of my finger. YOUCH! Had to pull it out like a stinger. Left a mark that's still there. So, gloves have their uses, but I still prefer the freedom (and dexterity) that comes with nude hands.

1104. JudithAtHome - 10/11/1999 11:05:39 AM

Oooops, just noticed the vintner on that wine is Banfi.

1105. Thoughtful - 10/11/1999 1:29:15 PM

We narrowly escaped the frost and it's warmed up some again so my tomatoes are still ripening, though very slowly. As soon as I see some blush, I pick them and let them ripen inside, just to be on the safe side.

Any of you who love to hate Martha Stewart as I do, this Sunday's program (which I watch faithfully) had Martha on showing how to fold towels! The woman is worth over $220 million because she shows America how to fold towels! She didn't even bother to mention that it might be optimum for people to fold it differently depending on the size of their linen closet. No! She just showed the Martha way as if there could possibly be no better way.

Then she showed America how to cook spaghetti!

Man, I wish I saw that magazine that was a Martha spoof called "Is Martha Stewart Living?" I understand it had a recipe for how to boil water and another for dirt. The only problem is, it also talked about stencilling your driveway and there were people who actually tried it and called with questions! (I imagine it was probably people with gravel driveways!)

1106. glendajean - 10/11/1999 1:32:27 PM

Thoughtful -- my favorite MS recipe (to read, not cook) is the one for Easter Sunday ham.

She puts in the recipe that the ham is laid on top of freshly cut grass. A review for The New Yorker magazine wrote that if he was take grass from his yeard, it would have cat piss on it.

1107. glendajean - 10/11/1999 1:33:44 PM

A reviewer, not review, who, if he took grass from his yard, it would have...

1108. JudithAtHome - 10/11/1999 4:16:24 PM

I laughed my yard off at that.....cat pee! (or worse). I knew Martha lived in rarified air but I had no idea it was that rare.

1109. moonflower - 10/11/1999 7:33:12 PM

Martha Stewart, ugh. But am THRILLED that, out of the blue, a canna lily I had planted and essentially decided wouldn't bloom as it's so late now has a big bud and should open this week. I had one helluva day at work but I spied this canna this morning and it gave me one little spec of peace to cling to all day long.

1110. JudithAtHome - 10/12/1999 10:06:34 AM

I saw the neatest Halloween yard art yesterday tho "pasture art" is more like it. At the end of my street, there is a horse ranch with acreage and a pond, etc. Out in their front pasture, they've set out a round hay bale (huge) and sprayed it black with a big yellow smile and orange eyes. To its "body", they've attached 6 black, ribbed PVC pipe legs, 3 on each side: viola! A big, friendly spider creeping across the landscape!

1111. Thoughtful - 10/12/1999 11:35:47 AM

Yard art sounds cool. Like the time Dad sprinkled fertilizer on the lawn in the shape of a heart so as it grew, Mom could see it from the kitchen window. Dad's a romantic, but it's buried very, very deep!

I remember Martha's ham recipe -- she started by planting the grass seeds weeks in advance in a pot so it would grow in time to be used in a baked ham! Will someone please get this woman something useful to do!!!

Today's NY Times had a most interesting article about her finances now that she wants to go public. See here. Some interesting stats from the article, MS salary in '98, $3 million; bonus $1.7 million; payment for use of her property, $1.5 million; if valued at $14, her shares would total $477.7 million; MS votes would control 96% of the stock!


Hey! Anyone want to watch me fold some towels!!

1112. JudithAtHome - 10/12/1999 11:39:54 AM

"Good things" run amok! Maybe we should run her for Pres...balance the budget, pay off the debt, and the entire country would become more genteel....or else!

1113. Thoughtful - 10/12/1999 11:40:59 AM

Also, re MS, check this one out!

1114. theDiva - 10/12/1999 11:42:42 AM

#2 remedy is pretty hip....

1115. JudithAtHome - 10/12/1999 11:47:50 AM

Thoughtful:

That was priceless....made my day. Tho I was getting a tad worried at reading the first part of the list!

1116. theDiva - 10/12/1999 11:48:17 AM

Why, Judith, is your hair shaped like a bonsai?

1117. Thoughtful - 10/12/1999 11:48:41 AM

Judithah, I'm not so sure that'd be a good idea. Don't know how much time she'd spend on policy as she'd be too busy gold leafing the oval office. Then again, that may be a good thing! Just think how she'd clean and dress the House -- and the Senate! She'd probably get them to pass any bill she wants rather than eat another one of her nastursium salads!

1118. JudithAtHome - 10/12/1999 11:49:41 AM

"at reading"??????

Sheesh.......

1119. JudithAtHome - 10/12/1999 11:51:02 AM

Thoughtful:

No, my hair more resembles the current crop of leaves: blowin' in the wind.

1120. Thoughtful - 10/12/1999 12:45:08 PM

Actually, from what I understand, the woman is an absolute bitch and her ex-husband's family reportedly has a restraining order against her!

1121. theDiva - 10/12/1999 12:48:00 PM

Pretty heady stuff for Little Miss Martha from Nutley, New Jersey.

What she does, nearly every woman of her generation and background can do and learned to do as a child. She rose to success, IMHO, because her overachieving style appealed to those career dames-turned-housewives who needed something to do with their time while the nanny took Junior to Gymboree.

meeeeeowwwwwwww..........

1122. Bubbaette - 10/12/1999 12:52:46 PM

Interesting to picture Martha in other jobs -- Martha as burger flipper --Martha as jewelry counter sales woman -- Martha as realtor, etc.

1123. theDiva - 10/12/1999 12:58:47 PM

Martha was born to be a realtor.

1124. Thoughtful - 10/12/1999 5:34:36 PM

Hard to believe she once was a Ford model and actually did a cover or two, but obviously she didn't excel at that. Now, I just want to give that women a pair of scissors so she can cut her bangs already! I know they have coiffures in Westport. (I don't think Westport would dare to have something so pedestrian as a barber shop.) :^| (That's supposed to be a nose in the air snob.)

1125. Thoughtful - 10/12/1999 5:36:08 PM

But she must have something -- after all, she interviewed both Bill Gates & Michael Milken. I don't think even BabaWawa did that.

1126. Bubbaette - 10/12/1999 9:47:20 PM

Ha! Did she teach Bill Gates how to crochet a monitor cozy from hand-dyed wool she spun from her very own german shepard?

1127. msgreer - 10/12/1999 9:57:46 PM

Let it be said not all models or ex models have mush for brains.

1128. JudithAtHome - 10/13/1999 4:23:26 PM

glendajean:

I just heard on Jeopardy that Indianapolis is referred to as Nap Town....this bodes ill for your move. Then again, you'll always be well rested. :-)

1129. glendajean - 10/13/1999 4:31:22 PM

Judith -- I have to have a better attitude. And while I'm not a Hoosier, I am trying to be more positive.

1130. JudithAtHome - 10/13/1999 4:35:00 PM

GJ:

My friend Michael used to love Indianapolis; said he went there as a boy for vacations and later in life, for fun times as a grownup.

1131. Uzmakk - 10/13/1999 5:18:42 PM

Somebody thinks they spotted a bear in the woods around my house. Makes things interesting. Who was it, Ronski, who had a bear visiting him this summer?

1132. ChristiPeters - 10/13/1999 5:34:54 PM

No one who met me now would believe it, but once upon a time when I was young and thin and silly, even I modeled.

I'd never have a Martha Stewart home tho' - I'm much too lazy.

I have no idea if any of this is good or bad except that I do still have very good posture. (My Mom started me walking with books on my head when I was 3)

1133. moonflower - 10/13/1999 8:24:22 PM

About 100 postings back, I was fretting about transplanting a sweetheart rose to a sunnier locale. Based on encouraging remarks I got here on this thread, I did dig it up and move it--expecting to build it a coffin shortly thereafter. BUT it is definitely green and has sent out a tiny bit of new growth! Tough little thing. How I hate transplanting, but it can really help.

1134. ChristiPeters - 10/13/1999 10:52:40 PM

Hooray fo you and your rose, moonflower.

My roses are doing fine, as are the transplanted Irises. However, I seem to have killed the two transplanted Rose of Sharon bushes.

1135. ChristiPeters - 10/13/1999 10:55:19 PM

Can you drown a peach tree?

I turned on the hose to water my peach tree, got distracted and called away, remembered about 3 hours later that I had turned on the hose.

(Oy! my water bill!)

Anyway, do you think I killed it?

1136. JonesAtLaw - 10/14/1999 1:38:22 AM

Christi- You can drown almost anything. But, my guess if you don't have a lot of rain for awhile and/or your soil wasn't too saturated before the watering, your tree will think that there was one heck of a storm and shrug it off. If your tree sits with the water around its roots for long enough, its curtains for the little microorganisms that live around the roots, and your tree. You might get a nasty fungus or something, but chances are, your tree will be fine. If your soil drains well, your tree just took a shower, and isn't any wetter afterwards than you are in a long shower as compared with a normal one. If you have heavy clay soil, it will take longer and you may have a problem. If your feet were sinking, and the lawn was squsihing when you discovered your problem, lay off the water for awhile. Good luck.

1137. moonflower - 10/14/1999 9:06:35 AM

Well, Christi, maybe those rose of sharons aren't dead after all--the roots may be alive but not willing to start any new growth. Maybe spring will bring a great surprise to you regarding those 2 plants.
Had my first toad lily bloom--but it fell off after a day! GRRR.
Moonflowers are getting fewer and farther between now. Am letting these big seedpods form. Hyacinth bean is still amazing. Am not willing to let this garden go. But hey, winter happens.

1138. glendajean - 10/14/1999 9:45:39 AM

Winter happens...

Tonight they are predicting the first frost in the DC area.

1139. theDiva - 10/14/1999 9:53:24 AM

Time to harvest the last of the basil. The leaves have actually started changing color. I may even go get some firewood this weekend.

1140. glendajean - 10/14/1999 10:07:24 AM

Diva, I pulled my last two basil plants out of the ground yesterday morning. They've long since gone to flower, but the smell is so sweet while pulling those plants out.

1141. theDiva - 10/14/1999 10:09:45 AM

Don't you love that fragrance?

Ooops....they're calling me for cake!

Be back later.

1142. ChristiPeters - 10/14/1999 10:24:55 AM

Jones - well the water is all soaked in this morning. It's barely even muddy. So I think my peach tree will survive. I hope so. It is a big early peach tree. It produced enough large, sweet peaches for 10 families (including us) last year and that was with bugs and birds getting at least 1/3 of the peaches (I didn't spray). This coming year I intend to fertilize and spray it and hope to give fruit away to even more people. (it's fun!) Maybe I'll even learn to can.

1143. ChristiPeters - 10/14/1999 10:26:32 AM

moonflower - I think I will continue to water my Rose of Sharon bushes in the hopes that you are right about the roots still being alive. Thanks, I might have given up on them if you hadn't suggested that.

1144. JudithAtHome - 10/14/1999 11:40:45 AM

Christi:

I hear we are 10 inches under regular rainfall for the year so your tree is probably grateful!!

1145. ChristiPeters - 10/14/1999 11:43:34 AM

Judith -



Thanks! I haven't been here long enough to know what is "normal".

1146. ChristiPeters - 10/14/1999 11:45:41 AM

Now that is weird. My first line was (big sigh of relief), but with brackets. Apparently that was interpreted as the bold thingy. You'd think the ...ig sigh of relief.. would have made a difference.

Another HTML lesson learned

1147. Thoughtful - 10/14/1999 4:49:26 PM

Oh boy. I started with a slightly sore throat on Tuesday, and gave a talk in Pittsburgh on Wed. by Wed night when I arrived home from the airport my voice was absolutely croaking.

I stayed home from work all day and spent all am on the phone trying to get remote access to work. Of course in between we had a power failure and then my cable modem went down. (Do you think the gods were trying to tell me to just go back to bed?)

I finally did that and woke up a little while ago, but I'm still croaking badly -- not even that deep throaty Lauren Bacall croak, not even the Katherine Hepburn croak -- more like a fingernails on chalkboard, 14 year old boy voice cracking, bull frog kinda croak!

The worst part is tomorrow I've got to lead an all day project for about 50 people! Hmmm. They say people will actually listen better if you whisper. I'll get a chance to try that out!

1148. Thoughtful - 10/14/1999 4:53:29 PM

Oops Christip didn't put her toys away...I'm telling Martha and she'll whip you with her cat'o'nine tails which she made from the hides she tanned from the dromedaries she had imported from Arabia.

Re my tomatoes, I've actually been getting quite a few as we had only a few cold days and I've covered them. They taste better than the store bought (but then again anything does) but they don't taste quite as lush as the ripe summer tomatoes.

1149. Thoughtful - 10/14/1999 4:54:35 PM

Why won't these turn off?

1150. Thoughtful - 10/14/1999 4:56:19 PM

Why won't this turn off?

1151. Thoughtful - 10/14/1999 4:56:34 PM

did that work?

1152. Thoughtful - 10/14/1999 4:57:04 PM

Oh dear -- I think we need professional help here.

1153. theDiva - 10/14/1999 5:10:42 PM

did this help?

1154. theDiva - 10/14/1999 5:12:51 PM

what about that?

1155. CalGal - 10/14/1999 5:16:20 PM

If this doesn't work, maybe GJ or Wabbit should delete 1145.

1156. CalGal - 10/14/1999 5:17:00 PM

There, that did it. Good job, Diva.

1157. theDiva - 10/14/1999 5:36:20 PM

All in a day's work for.....

MAMBO GEEK!

1158. ChristiPeters - 10/14/1999 7:40:32 PM

Huh?

I put my toys away in post#1146. Then everything looked normal until the tiny tiny font of Diva's #1153.

Ok, I am officially confused.

1159. CalGal - 10/14/1999 7:57:08 PM

It doesn't look bold and big to you?

1160. Aldavis - 10/14/1999 8:29:21 PM

I just read the last post and became curious. What is the subject you ladies are discussing?

I've never posted a recipe here as far as I can remember, but I'll take a stab at it.

1. grate (or as stamper would have said-great) several peeled apples.
2. mix grated apples with a small box of raisens.
3. mix in chopped mac nuts, or whatever nuts you have. There are an ample supply on the Current Event Thread.
4. mix in several teaspoons of curry.
5. pound out a chicken breast as thin as possible and fill with mixture and wrap it up like a little bird.
6. bake for around 20 minutes at 350.
7. I like to make aq curry sauce to go over the top when served.

1161. Thoughtful - 10/14/1999 9:11:38 PM

Aldavis, chicken recipe? Whodathunkit!

I need help from a historian here. I saved all sorts of stuff on scraps of paper here and came across this:

1Tbls dishwashing liquid + 1 Tbls rubbing alcohol+ 2gal water. Was that for mites or something? Bubbaette, was that you?

Actually it sounds like it'd be great on cleaning windows.

Craft hint for the day: I had to travel to Pittsburgh on Wed. and now they are handing out $10 tickets if you don't have your E-Z-Pass (to get through the tolls electronically) attached to your windshield. But I was in a rental car so didn't want to attach it permanently. I used the sticky floral clay. It's designed to stick things together even under water and it stuck immediately to the windshield, was strong enough to hold the box in place. I was then able to gently pry it off with only a little residue left on the glass which I was then able to rub off with my finger. Not bad considering I came up with that solution as I'm about 5 minutes from running out the door for the airport.

1162. pseudoerasmus - 10/15/1999 6:00:25 PM

Glendajean, there are some recipes in the travel thread if you're interested.

1163. Bubbaette - 10/15/1999 7:03:34 PM

Thoughtful

That "recipe" is for a fairly good all-around bug spray. I used it to get rid of an infestation of aphids on my tomato plants this spring. I used it a couple of times a week. It also worked to keep bugs off my green beans.

It did not work to get rid of squash beetles that killed my cuke crop this spring. But then neither did sevin dust, and the detergent stuff is alot more environment-friendly.

1164. glendajean - 10/15/1999 11:27:03 PM

PE -- you can copy them into the recipes sub-thread on this page or I'll do it. Thanks for the tip.

1165. glendajean - 10/15/1999 11:28:31 PM

re: Thoughtful's bug recipe. I've used that, substituting baking soda for the alcohol to help keep mildew down on plants, particularly roses. It also chokes the aphids.

1166. JudithAtHome - 10/19/1999 10:41:45 AM

Hey guys....where is everyone? I'll bet I can wake you up with a description of what I had for lunch yesterday. It was frightfully induldgent and probably dumped enough plaque in my arteries to choke a horse but............yyyyuuuuuummmmmmmmmmeeeeeee!

1167. JonesAtLaw - 10/19/1999 10:59:28 AM

Antiques quiz in the quiz thread.

1168. glendajean - 10/19/1999 11:01:02 AM

Judith -- I've been dealing with mundane real life. Please tell us about your meal yesterday.

1169. Bubbaette - 10/19/1999 11:05:58 AM

I'm so mad I could spit. I put in 3 dozen pansies in my back flower bed on Saturday. Yesterday, DH was home with a bad back when two slack-jawed employees showed up from Asplundh Tree Service contracting with Virginia Power to trim the neighbors' trees away from the powerline. DH answered the door and one of the guys said very insolently "keep your dog inside" (the 25lb canine terror was already inside). Then the assholes from Asplundh proceeded to crush every single one of the 3 dozen flowers I'd planted, did a half-ass job of trimming the neighbors trees, and left all the trimmings in my yard.

If they ever come back, I'm going to shoot them. Don't hire Asplund tree service -- their employees are rude idiots.

1170. glendajean - 10/19/1999 11:08:40 AM

Bubbaette -- are you calling the tree service for replacement of your pansies and for cleaning up your yard?

While their behavior borders on criminal, imo, the law probably sees it as a small claims court item. The bastards.

1171. Bubbaette - 10/19/1999 11:12:01 AM

Glendajean

I've called both the tree service and Virginia Power. Perhaps I'm a cynic, but because the tree service was contracting for a monopoly, I doubt I'll even get an apology.

1172. glendajean - 10/19/1999 11:17:20 AM

Bubbaette -- call your city council person. They have somebody on their staff to handle these kinds of complaints. And if they're conpetent, they know who to call at the utility.

1173. JudithAtHome - 10/19/1999 11:23:06 AM

For lunch yesterday I had the quintessential grilled cheese sandwich.

I used 2 pieces of sourdough bread coated with a thin layer of real mayonaise instead of butter. Laid the first slice, mayo side down, in the skillet and put 2 slices of American cheese, side by side, on the bread. (The bread is rectangular rather than square.) Then I put sliced dill pickles and added 2 more slices of cheese. These are very thin slices. Topped with second slice of bread and grilled away, flipping several times til both sides were a dark golden toasty brown.

This is the first time I've ever put dill pickles in a grilled cheese sandwich and it was wonderful. I'm almost sorry it was so delightful because I must limit myself to maybe one a month. I could eat this every day and have macaroni and cheese every night and die happy...as I surely would do, and swiftly to boot.

1174. glendajean - 10/19/1999 11:24:29 AM

Dying happy is good, Judith. And we're all going to die anyway.

1175. Bubbaette - 10/19/1999 11:29:30 AM

Glenda

Do you think all the tramping and stamping on my flower bed will have harmed the bulbs I put in underneath the pansies on Saturday?

1176. JudithAtHome - 10/19/1999 11:33:13 AM

GJ:

True, but I'd rather live happily a little longer. Besides, not giving in to my impulse to eat one every day will make it more special when I finally have one later.

1177. glendajean - 10/19/1999 11:40:20 AM

Bubbaette -- probably not. Any trampling in your bed compacts the soil, and that makes your plants work harder, makes clay soil more difficult.

If you planted tiny bulbs (crocus, grape hyacinth) they are vulnerable since they're closer to the soil. Tulips and daffodils should be ok. Killing your pansies is unacceptable. Is your neighbor a part of this? It's dumb that you would have to spend time and energy raising hell about jerks like this. Better to spend that time planting.

1178. glendajean - 10/19/1999 11:40:54 AM

Judith -- I want you to live long and happy, too. That sounded like a delicious sandwich.

1179. Bubbaette - 10/19/1999 12:24:12 PM

Glenda

I only planted daffodils and tulips in the back bed, so they should be ok.

The powerlines are on our side of the property, and the neighbors trees grow over. I don't mind that, and DH keeps them trimmed back as far as our ladder reaches. But the neighbors are renting, so it's not like they have any responsibility or stake in the issue.

on a lighter note, I more than doubled the size of my outside-the-kitchen-window flower garden this weekend, adding 45 assorted bulbs and the ubiquitous pansies there too. I wanted to edge the bed with more cobblestones and called Luck Stone yesterday to see if I could buy some. They want $4 per cobble! My next try is to see if I can buy some stones from the City of Richmond Department of Parks and Recreation since they tore down some cobblestone retaining walls when they recently put in some soccer fields in our nearby park. If that fails, I guess I'll just have to use bricks. I have a few landscape timbers out front, but they're rotting and I like the look of stones better.

1180. Ronski - 10/19/1999 3:01:38 PM

The problem with cholesterol and sodium is that while they often kill, they do not always kill swiftly.

Grilled cheese sandwiches with mayonnaise and pickles are therefore best eaten in moderation, he said dourly.

1181. CalGal - 10/19/1999 3:11:05 PM

I have always considered cheese to be a cosmic Fuck You.

Why else would a food product be so delicious, so appealing, so flexible, and so fattening?

1182. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 3:15:02 PM

Yesterday, I got to visit one of my favorite NYC restaurants.

Casa Adela, on Avenue C and 7th street, in "Loaisaida", the Puerto Rican stretch of the Lower East Side.

It's a modest, but well lighted place, a kind of neighborhood hangout, and the fare is excellent Spanish Caribbean at dirt-cheap prices.

I ate half a Cuban Sandwich and preserved the other half for later. It's a spectacular foot-long creation with succulent roast pork, ham, cheese and pickles in a baguette-like bread which is crushed in a heated press for at least 10 minutes. And I also ate 'pernil' , a plateful of superb roasted pork done to perfection, and I also ate half a grilled chicken (100 times better than any other rotisserie product you care to name), and a plateful of flattened plantain chips. And rice and beans on the side.

Total cost: $17

Total time involved: Two hours.

Check the place out, it is well worth it.

1183. janjon - 10/19/1999 3:16:17 PM

Fattening is just one of the problems with cheese, unfortunately. It is how it fattens that is the killer (pun intended.) And, none of the really good ones come in reduced fat versions.

1184. PelleNilsson - 10/19/1999 3:22:02 PM

... a spectacular foot-long creation with succulent roast pork, ham, cheese and pickles in a baguette-like bread ....

... a plateful of superb roasted pork done to perfection ...

On his travels, marj has read too many coffee shop menus in the Sheraton/Marriott type of places.

1185. Ronski - 10/19/1999 3:23:44 PM

Yes, there's no reduced-fat Saint Andre. And Vermont cheddar, the kind someone in a musty old store slices for you from a wheel the cat sleeps on at night, likewise does not come in a reduced-fat version worth anyone's munching time.

1186. JonesAtLaw - 10/19/1999 3:25:48 PM

My ten year old created his own specialty sandwhich for me the other day. Cold chicken breast slices, bagged salad (pre-made leaf lettuce, radicchio and arugula) with dressing made of equal parts kraft BBQ sauce and French dressing with several dashes of hot pepper sauce. Being a greatful and dutiful father, I ate a bite, (expecting to use the disposal techniques I learned as a child) and was surprised at how good it was. I would recomend that you use sourdough bread. Not bad for a kid who's improvising. I expected PB&J, and got this!

1187. janjon - 10/19/1999 3:26:00 PM

marjoribanks. I hope you have a kind metabolism. If not, think embolism. That was a lotta food, even if you did save half the hero for later. (how much later, incidentally.)

1188. Ronski - 10/19/1999 3:30:48 PM

If you need a visual to help you picture what happens to our arteries as we age, think of a slice of mortadella salami (emphasis on the first syllable).

1189. Ronski - 10/19/1999 3:34:25 PM

Oh, and another thing: After eating Puerto Rican food for two hours, NEVER go out and shovel snow.

1190. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 3:36:03 PM

Pelle,

Please. I'm recounting the truth. Though your snippets do read like a bad menu, I assure you the adjectives are deserved in this case.

Janjon,

I am young, hale and sporting, the food was well digested and expelled this morning with no noticeable after effects.

1191. CalGal - 10/19/1999 3:36:48 PM

Heavens. That last falls squarely into the category of Too Much Information.

1192. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 3:37:05 PM

Oh yeah, I ate the other half of the Sandwich Cubano for lunch today. It was excellent cold.

1193. Ronski - 10/19/1999 3:40:19 PM

marjoribanks,

Trust me. Some of it was left behind.

(Plaque begins to be deposited on artery walls at about age three.)

1194. janjon - 10/19/1999 3:42:08 PM

marj, young guy. I don't want to be an undue spoilsport here, but with food its what you don't see that can kill'ya.

Now, pass the salt, please.

1195. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 3:45:22 PM

I will refuse to accept the processes of aging until they manifest themselves in some unfortunate manner. It is my way.

But I very rarely eat as much, or in as profilgate a manner. This was an exception, I don't often show up around Loaisaida.

1196. CalGal - 10/19/1999 3:46:24 PM

I believe that plaque build up is pretty much determined by genetics, isn't it?

1197. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 3:47:18 PM

Ronski,

I happen to love mortadella, and various other Italian sausages. These, I know, will kill me. But I have yet to develop a restraint when it comes to them.

1198. Ronski - 10/19/1999 3:51:35 PM

Tell me about it. In my heritage, there is kelbos, known better to the world in its Polish form, kielbasa.

I buy the kind now made from turkey, hoping that will do less evil.

1199. SpenceMirrlees - 10/19/1999 3:52:49 PM

1191

But I'll bet he was miiighty careful with the zipper.

1200. CalGal - 10/19/1999 3:54:22 PM

Spence,

God damn it. I spenched my coke and choked on my cookie.

1201. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 3:54:59 PM

Spence,

You have a weird sense of humor. In fact, I go so far as to say that you're weird, period.

1202. JudithAtHome - 10/19/1999 3:56:22 PM

Marj:

Your sandwich sounds tons better than my dinky little grilled cheese.

Today I repented for yesterdays stumble off the fat wagon and had a salad with fresh squeezed lemon juice instead of dressing.

1203. JonesAtLaw - 10/19/1999 3:56:27 PM

Marjoribanks- keep enjoying, keep exercising and keep donating to the Heart Association. There's research on plaque that indicates that it may be associated with low grade infections of the aterial walls. Maybe some day we can have our cheese, and sausage and enjoy them without guilt.

1204. SpenceMirrlees - 10/19/1999 3:58:53 PM

I can accept that, majori, but I still find your paranoia on this subject endlessly hysterical.

As for weird, which one of us is talking nonchalantly about his bowel movements?

1205. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 4:02:33 PM

Spence, weirdo,


My family jewels contain the secret elixir which is the key to the perpetuation and propogation of more marjoribanks. Is there anything at all humorous about the fact that I take their preservation and upkeep seriously?

1206. janjon - 10/19/1999 4:03:10 PM

CalGal. Yes, bad genetics are verrrry difficult to get around when it comes to heart-related diseases. OTOH, you can really fuck up good genetics with cocky eating habits. With things like much of Puerto Rican cuisine, for instance.

1207. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 4:04:01 PM

It's a duty, Spence. One I take extremely seriously.

1208. janjon - 10/19/1999 4:04:44 PM

upkeep. Is that a euphemism?

1209. Ronski - 10/19/1999 4:05:00 PM

Jones is correct. Also, research that suggests inflammation is a cause of plaque buildup, and anti-inflammatories may help.

Cal is also correct that genes seem to play a role.

1210. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 4:11:30 PM

janjon,

Thanks for getting it.

BTW, I gather that you are NYC based. Any restaurants to recommend? I have an oft-displayed, though my-neighborhood oriented, list to share in exchange.

1211. Thoughtful - 10/19/1999 4:12:00 PM

Still, the research supports that the key to a very long, youthful life is reduced calorie intake by about 40% while making sure you get all the nutrition needed with supplements. Seems those damn free radicals (must be a leftover left wing conspiracy of the 60s!) are generated as a result of food digestion. Anti-oxidants such as are found in fruits and veggies help mop up those evil elements, but they are not nearly as effective as reducing their quantity in total by eating much less. The good news is, some benefit can be derived by eating some less -- say maintaining your weight 10-20% below its normal "set-point". (From an article in, I believe, last weeks science section of the NY Times.)

1212. janjon - 10/19/1999 4:15:47 PM

marjoribanks. No, unfortunately, not from New York City. Although I do get there from time to time on business. As often as I can. My restaurant list would probably be much more predictable than yours, but I would enjoy hearing from someone who seems to get around to interesting places. (But, go easy on the pork, o.k.?)

1213. glendajean - 10/19/1999 4:20:34 PM

In the United States, cheese has to be aged for 60 (?) days unlike Europe.

1214. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 4:22:30 PM

janjon,

My favorite restaurant in all of NYC is Jai-Ya Thai, encompassing both the Manhattan branch on 3rd Ave and 28th St and the Jackson Heights branch on Broadway.

The atmosphere is negligibly interesting, the food is addictive.

Besides the Pad Thai (best outside Thailand) and Tom Yum (ditto) I recommend (sorry) the pork with ground pepper and garlic, the fish in special sauce and the beef penang. But everything on the menu is excellent.

For an interesting anthropological experiment show up at either branch after 9 PM on Friday or Saturday. The place is mobbed, swarmed, by subcontinentals. It's an interesting phenomenon.

1215. SpenceMirrlees - 10/19/1999 4:25:19 PM

Bowel Puri:

Not only is it funny that you could be induced to treat your zipper with extra care at least a year after watching a movie, it's even funnier that you felt the need to confess this in an online forum.

1216. janjon - 10/19/1999 4:27:44 PM

marj. That sounds terrific. But, I am a bit confused. Jackson Heights branch on Broadway? Is that on the upper west side?

1217. janjon - 10/19/1999 4:29:05 PM

I gather marj had some sort of a hang-up about There's Something About Mary?

Me too. I have a small dog and that scene where the dog went through the window gave me nightmares.

1218. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 4:30:03 PM

Spence,

It was a joke. But anyway, it's not exactly untrue. I suggest that you too take care when doing up your trouser zipper. Who would want to get into the 'bleeder' predicament pictured in that movie?

1219. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 4:30:53 PM

Jackson Heights. Queens. Home of several superb restaurants.

1220. janjon - 10/19/1999 4:33:38 PM

Queens. Oh.

1221. PelleNilsson - 10/19/1999 4:35:42 PM

Recent research shows that the unhealthy preoccupation with unhealthy foods may lead to ingestion-related stress symptoms which are, in themselves, a major source of high blood pressure and heart disease.

"Thinking too much about what you eat can kill you", said Thomas G. Morton Jr., a dietary expert with the General Surgeon's office.

1222. janjon - 10/19/1999 4:37:15 PM

pellenetc. Why do I come to suspect that you enjoy more than the occasional, say, sausage?

1223. webfeet - 10/19/1999 5:11:54 PM

Jackson Heights. Queens. Home of several superb restaurants

And now, sadly, also home of webfeet.

Well, you can't really blame me. Pad thai or not, it's not the 7th arrondissement. (no, no don't go there....)

1224. janjon - 10/19/1999 5:16:35 PM

but but but, I love the 7th.

1225. pseudoerasmus - 10/19/1999 5:16:46 PM

Marzipranks has mentioned these Thai restaurant favourites of his a lot. He says pretentious and completely unverifiable things like "best outside Thailand" a lot too. Well, a Thai tourist I met in Russia this summer, who had lived in NY as a student, laughed at Marzipranks's favourites.

1226. janjon - 10/19/1999 5:17:55 PM

but how do you know that the Thai student was a fellow of discernment?

1227. CalGal - 10/19/1999 5:21:40 PM

Surely the operative attribute here is his nationality, not his discernment.

1228. Raskolnikov - 10/19/1999 5:24:57 PM

Who says natives are the best assessors of the quality (not authenticity) of their cuisine?

Not that I want to get in the middle of a cosmopolitan pissing contest...

1229. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 5:26:26 PM

" a Thai tourist I met in Russia this summer, who had lived in NY as a student, laughed at Marzipranks's favourites"

You know, for a purportedly intelligent person who expects his opinions to be taken seriously, you rely far too much on casual acquaintance struck up in obscure and unrelated places.

While I am quite possibly Jai-Ya Thai's biggest fan, look up the restaurant in any reputable or reputed guide to NYC establishments. I think you'll get the picture.

Your Thai student tourist is exactly that, a Thai student tourist. Ask the Thai consulate in NYC, that by contrast would be a decent and credible source by comparison.

1230. Uzmakk - 10/19/1999 5:28:34 PM

The juncos are back.

1231. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 5:28:55 PM

But tell us, Pseuder, did you mention the restaurant by name to your Thai ingenue? Have you eaten there? Has the Thai eaten there?

1232. janjon - 10/19/1999 5:30:17 PM

CalGal. I for one would not much trust the views of, say, someone from rural Tennessee as to the quality of the restaurants in New York City. A Thai he may have been, but.

1233. pseudoerasmus - 10/19/1999 5:33:40 PM

You know, for a purportedly intelligent person who expects his opinions to be taken seriously, you rely far too much on casual acquaintance struck up in obscure and unrelated places.

I didn't "rely" on anything. I merely reported a fact -- that a Thai laughed at your recommendation.

Your Thai student tourist is exactly that, a Thai student tourist.

You know, for a purportedly intelligent person who expects his opinions to be taken seriously, you really can't read. The Thai had been a student. He is not a student now.

1234. pseudoerasmus - 10/19/1999 5:37:01 PM

#1231

The restaurant I mentioned to the Thai is the one you have mentioned at least a hundred times in the Fray -- Jai-Ya Thai ("the Thai aficionado mecca"). That is the one he laughed at. The restaurant he and his companions recommended, the one they claimed was frequented even by Thais living hundreds of miles away from NYC, is called Sriphant.

"Have you eaten there?"

No. Why is this question relevant?

1235. Uzmakk - 10/19/1999 5:37:12 PM

I like the way birds puff themselves up. Muck like moties.

1236. Uzmakk - 10/19/1999 5:38:03 PM

ie much like moties.

1237. Uzmakk - 10/19/1999 5:39:17 PM

There is, in fact, a great difference between the way Thai food is served in Thailand and the way it is served here in "Thai" Restaurants.

1238. CalGal - 10/19/1999 5:39:57 PM

Janjon,

He was a Thai who went to school in NYC. I'm figuring he wouldn't be the equivalent of a rural Tennessean.

All things being equal, I'd take the word of a native over a citizen of the world.

1239. CalGal - 10/19/1999 5:42:43 PM

And because Banks is sometimes sensitive, I'll restate--I'd always take the restaurant rating of a native over a non-native, had I no other information to go on.

1240. marjoribanks - 10/19/1999 5:45:14 PM

Do a search on Jai-Ya Thai Restaurant.


I rest my case.

1241. janjon - 10/19/1999 5:45:38 PM

CalGal. Oh I don't know whether being a student in NYC cuts much mustard in terms of food sophistication. Most don't have the money to spend on fine cuisine. Of course, most Thai restaurants aren't expensive and therefore....

A rather pointless exercise, this.

But, I would go the other way. I would say that generally a citizen of the world has at his or her disposal the means to discern what is really good examples of many if not most countries' cuisines equal to and in many cases better than a citizen of that country. Unless the citizen is also more or less a citizen of the world type too.

Back to all of this being pointless as in impossible to resolve.

1242. webfeet - 10/19/1999 5:47:42 PM

Hang on, in Marj's defense I would like to testify that Jackson Heights has quite a large thai population and that one thing JH has going for it is ethnic authenticity. Even though I am not a connoisseur of thai food, I would like to go there just to try it. Where on Broadway, Marj?

Maybe the ex-student was laughing at Marj's wording "about mecca of thai afficionadoes" rather than the food.

(btw, never buy anything from a bakery in jackson heights. the only one that is supposed to be good is Dubois, which is one of those luchow's kinds of places fromthe old world)