International 1

Wow, this place looks great

2. ProfEmeritus - 8/21/1999 1:36:04 AM

Do I have to post the first message? I was hoping for a quick emergence of this thread. The real leader should be bhel puri, but marj will do equally well. BOTH ARE SINGULARLY QUALIFIED, HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE AND PROBABLY HAVE'T SNORTED COCAINE FOR AT LEAST 15 YEARS. Those caps appeared uninvited, but I am too lazy to change them.

3. ProfEmeritus - 8/21/1999 1:38:33 AM

When I checked two minutes ago, FTC's post wasn't there. Is there a delay via New Zealand?

4. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/21/1999 1:48:27 AM

I wouldn't bet on that probably part, ProfE.

5. glendajean - 8/21/1999 2:43:53 AM

Someone told me the other day that Ireland will issue a passport to any one who can prove Irish ancestry, and that upon getting that passport, it will be respected by other European countries. Is that true?

6. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/21/1999 2:45:18 AM

GJ:
Yes. I think you need to have one great-grandparent who was born in Ireland, or something.

7. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/21/1999 2:46:23 AM

I happen to have one of those, or maybe it's a great-great grandparent. But every Irishperson I meet does the hard sell on me, telling me to apply for my passport.

8. CalGal - 8/21/1999 2:46:28 AM

Hey, I had a grandma born in Wales. Does that count?

9. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/21/1999 2:47:35 AM

It might, when Wales starts issuing passports.

10. glendajean - 8/21/1999 2:47:57 AM

Wales would place you in the United Kingdom and I assume they're not as generous as the Irish Republic.

11. glendajean - 8/21/1999 2:51:22 AM

Hey, I think I do have a great grandparent born in Ireland.


Useful information when they round up all the gay people in this country.


It's funny, but sometime around the 1992 Republican convention in Houston, almost every single gay person I knew had this fear that we were going to be rounded up, so to speak. I'm sure Patrick Buchanan's speech probably helped stoke that fear. I'm not sure that anybody I know expresses that fear anymore. But there used to be lots of discussions about moving to Canada or Denmark or some other place when the purges started.

12. CalGal - 8/21/1999 2:59:30 AM

That couldn't have been fun to contemplate.

13. glendajean - 8/21/1999 3:02:41 AM

Irrational. But pre-dated what I think happened because of the 1993 gays in the military debate -- when suddenly people started talking about gay people, a ton more gay folk came out of the closet, and the national dialogue changed somewhat.

Of course, politicians at that time either didn't talk about homosexuality or denounced it.

14. ProfEmeritus - 8/21/1999 12:38:15 PM

Where is the host? We need some ideas here.

Btw Alistair, the newest message button doesn't work on any thread for me.

15. ProfEmeritus - 8/21/1999 12:43:41 PM

My last message didn't post. Or it may appear later.

I won't redo the whole thing, but I will reiterate as a message to the ruling triumvurate that neither the "newest message' or "top of page" work for me on any thread.

16. FreeToChoose - 8/21/1999 1:03:19 PM

ProfE

It isn't just you. Several of the buttons on the left do not work yet. The VCR buttons on the bottom do work, with the additional functionality that they work as refresh buttons when you have reached the latest post.


In an attempt to discuss International, the situation in Turkey sounds like it is very serious. Besides a major death toll, headed for top ten of this century, they are worried about a typhoid (inter alia) outbreak.

17. PelleNilsson - 8/21/1999 10:59:42 PM

Irv,

Maybe this has made its way into your papers, but this from AFP was reported in IHT under the heading East Timor Leader Warns Jakarta of Hacker War

The Nobel peace laureate and East Timorese independent leader Jose Ramos-Horta said Wednesday that Indonesia could face a backlash, including destruction of its computer systems, if it does not assure a fair ballot in East Timor on Aug 30.

He said 100 international computer hackers have prepared "a ferocious campaign" that would bring Indonesia to a standstill.

"We will terminate their banking system. We will invade their sites and destroy them. People will be scared to travel to Indonesia when they know that we are also infecting their air communications".

18. laurence - 8/21/1999 11:01:08 PM

Hey, pelle, have you got a URL or something? They sound like my sort of people. Perhaps I could help.

19. alistairconnor - 8/21/1999 11:01:52 PM

Sorry, that was me again.

20. RickNelson - 8/22/1999 12:33:21 AM

Hells Bells Pelle,

What's up with that? Do those hackers really think they will affect change with destruction of that sort? Also, if they can do that to Indonesia, then what's the new terrorism, well, now we know don't we.

This sort of hacking must be plausable, yet the counter force for it better be in place, ten years ago. I wonder what you in the know can tell?

August 30 is my birthday and if hackers mess up Indonesia on that day, I'll not forget that, nor do I intend to forgive that. If affecting change is desired then help those who are trying to do the job. Email Habbibie for a start, then the U.N. then all the senators, the president, and whomever else. What does anyone think of that? Is mine so inaffective as to be laughable? I would hope not, yet I suppose emails are not yet the answer to affect change, what with screeners checking them first. Kind of analogous to the chap who didn't pass on the impending and current information that Japan was about to attack at Pearl Harbor.


Anyway,
Turkey, prayers to them.

Pakistan and India, well what can anyone in my position say? I'm way to uninformed, except for what bhel and Zaid have said in TT. That my friends is a well informed discussion. The not so long ago links to Chwok were fabulous. Please link them here Marj.

21. testing2 - 8/22/1999 12:35:23 AM

Hi Yo, this is alistair testing...

22. RickNelson - 8/22/1999 12:41:09 AM

Socko,
Are we running the Mote through NZ? My almanac says we are? I think Bali would be 12 + 3, NZ is listed as 12 + 5 so that's why I conclude it's NZ. Oops, well then take into consideration that I'm -2 from Eastern Standard time and that puts it back in Bali. Ok, so I conclude it's Bali.

23. RickNelson - 8/22/1999 12:42:21 AM

Looking good alistair.

24. ProfEmeritus - 8/22/1999 6:02:00 AM

Rick:

Irv explained somewhere that Bali is 12 hours ahead of EDT, and that NZ is 4 hours ahead of Bali; i.e., NZ is 16 hours ahead of EDT, 17 ahead of CDT and 19 ahead of PDT.

25. pellenilsson - 8/22/1999 6:04:45 AM

For the perfect MoteTime Converter go to #1771 in what is now the Party thread.

26. PincherMartin - 8/22/1999 6:23:35 AM

Irv --

Interesting article on the decline of discipline in Japan's educational system. Much ado about nothing, you think?

Japan Fights Classroom Collapse

27. phillipdavid - 8/22/1999 10:12:37 PM

Well, it is not nothing, Pincher. Everybody will have to learn how to adjust -- either to acceptance, or to a way of dealing with the "problem."

``This is a very serious problem,'' says Yutaka Nabeshima, who is
running an Education Ministry study of the phenomenon. ``We haven't
figured out what the root of it is yet.''

28. RickNelson - 8/22/1999 10:27:12 PM

The second I understand, but correlate the first for me please.

29. phillipdavid - 8/22/1999 10:34:58 PM

Rick,

The rebellious, anti-establishment nature of young people's rock and roll has probably seeped into the pop culture. It is a cultural influence.

30. RickNelson - 8/22/1999 10:45:58 PM

Yes, true. No arguement of its influence. Is its proliferation a root cause of the materialism distraction? Are Japanese kids needing Ambercrombie and Finch, Old Navy and all?

Are the references mostly for the street displays? The few times I've read of them, or seen a news spot, the activity seems intense!

Is that the distraction of the reference and which you are describing?

I would imagine the intensity of the mood is a release for some and a downfall for others. It's like the U.S. rock concert mentality I suppose. These distractions might have many correlated affects (thinking out loud).

31. RickNelson - 8/22/1999 10:49:41 PM

Let's add prolific advertising as an effective materialism distractor.

32. PincherMartin - 8/23/1999 3:09:42 AM

Phillip David --

Well, it is not nothing, Pincher. Everybody will have to learn how to adjust -- either to acceptance, or to a way of dealing with the "problem."

I'm sure the article describes a real problem, but given its recent beginnings (I think they said they started to notice the problem just over three years ago) and the excessive fretting Japanese tend to do over how lazy and undisciplined they've become, I'm not sure if the problem is anything to be genuinely concerned about or something that will work itself into the Japanese system in little time at all.



From the article ``This is a very serious problem,'' says Yutaka Nabeshima, who is
running an Education Ministry study of the phenomenon. ``We haven't
figured out what the root of it is yet.''


PD: The root?

Rock and Roll and proliferative materialism.

The kids seemed a little young to me to be heavily influenced by R&R, but materialism may have played a role.

33. stostosto - 8/23/1999 1:25:17 PM

This is a test.

And this is not stostosto.

It's just Irv, taking a new ID out for a test drive after 10 attempts to get our pal sto successfully logged in.

It appears to be working.

Any further posts under this ID will be the real sto.

34. stostosto - 8/24/1999 10:47:19 AM

here is the real sto
giving it one more go
hoping my post will show
- but no

35. stostosto - 8/24/1999 10:47:43 AM

YESSSS!

36. Bubbaette - 8/24/1999 1:04:14 PM

please help me out, you world travelers.

DH's daughter is getting ready to leave next week for a semester in Vietnam. As the date gets closer, the more apprehensive DH gets about his daughter's safety, precautions she should take, etc. Last night I pulled the State Department's post report for Vietnam to give him some background and now he's freaked even worse, what with talk about occasional detainings of tourists, potential fines for carrying c.d.'s and videotapes in to the country, and theives on motor bikes and pedalcabs.

What advice should we give my step daughter (20 years old) and does anyone have any first hand experience travelling in vietnam?

Thanks

37. PincherMartin - 8/24/1999 8:53:49 PM

Bubbaette --

I've never been to Vietnam, but from what I've heard, it's perfectly safe, even for a woman traveler. The Vietnamese are extremely friendly to Americans and usually go out of their way to help out a traveler.

38. RickNelson - 8/24/1999 10:50:24 PM

bubbaette,

I can only speak for referencing trips to Malaysia.

Those were very long flights, but mostly boring.

customs in Malaysia had luggage checks, but relatively short lived. The line is a pain!

I recommend you read international papers for references and then browse the Asia Weekly news.

Check out the new international and CIA links. The later will have a page about Vietnam.

39. Bubbaette - 8/25/1999 12:23:05 AM

Pincher, Rick

Thanks for the reassurance and for the suggestions.

40. PincherMartin - 8/25/1999 2:24:57 AM

Bubbaette --

You might want to ask Irv and Scott Loar if they know anything about traveling to Vietnam. I expect both of them have visited the country (Scott Loar, of course, fought in the Vietnam War, but I imagine he has visited it since) or at the very least know many people who have.

41. stostosto - 8/25/1999 8:59:17 AM

Bubbaette

My sister-in-law went to Vietnam last year with a girlfriend. Two dishy Danish girls at 26. (And "dishy" is an understatement here, I tell you..!). Naturally, the family was quite worried just like your stepdaughter's father is. But it turned out there was absolutely nothing to worry about. Everybody had been friendly, the mood of the place was friendly, and they didn't even hear any stories from other tourists either, whether Americans or Europeans.

Of course, at 20 your stepdaughter is very young, and I can fully empathise with the fatherly concern (I have a daughter myself, even if she's only 3); but that would be the case regardless of where in the world she'd go away for an entire semester. And my impression is that Vietnam is not particularly worrisome - in fact, it's probably less so than many places in Europe or the US.

(But: I must emphasize I am no expert on Vietnam; you will do well to hear ScottLoar, or Irv out if they've been there recently).

42. bloodnfire - 8/25/1999 11:20:48 AM

Bubbaette:
Please e-mail me, and I will give you the e-mail address of a very close friend who has lived in Vietnam for the past six years. He started a business there, married a Vietnamese woman, and is starting a family. He has a wealth of information which I am sure he would be glad to share with you, so you can get an idea of how things really are.

43. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/25/1999 11:22:14 AM

Sheesh. Why did that happen? This isn't bloodnfire! This is Irv (although I helped Bloodnfire check out his ID earlier). The creen clearly said I was posting as Irv.

Let me try that post again...

44. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/25/1999 11:23:36 AM

make that the screen.

Bubbaette:
Please e-mail me, and I will give you the e-mail address of a very close friend who has lived in Vietnam for the past six years. He started a business there, married a Vietnamese woman, and is starting a family. He has a wealth of information which I am sure he would be glad to share with you, so you can get an idea of how things really are.

(Sorry about the wrong ID)

45. Bubbaette - 8/25/1999 11:51:25 AM

Thanks Irv

I sent an e-mail to your Fray address. Is that still working?

46. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/25/1999 12:20:18 PM

Bubba:
Indeed it is, and I have responded.

The the-fray.com address will remain functional for the foreseeable future.

47. cmboyce - 8/25/1999 1:27:45 PM

A curious query of the Mote's Asia travelers: Today's South China Post, covering the crash of a China Airlines
jet at the city's Chek Lap Kok Airport Sunday, quotes "...one
passenger, a former New York policeman: 'I heard rescue teams
talking on walkie-talkies directing people to come to help. It
sounded like they were not familiar with the airport.' "

My question is: Was this guy just extrapolating from tones of voice, or is English the language of the local emergency workers? If so, why? I know the language of pilots and towers is English, but I'd have thought ambulance drivers, etc, would speak Chinese (Cantonese?).

48. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/25/1999 1:39:31 PM

cm:
Perhaps he was a Cantonese-speaking NYC policeman? I would imagine there are some. Your question is a good one.

49. cmboyce - 8/25/1999 1:44:19 PM

Hadn't thought of that, Irv. You're right, there must be, and that well might be it.

50. stostosto - 8/26/1999 5:14:36 PM

Where is bhelpurimarjoribanks? I wouldn't have thought him this slow to show up. I am worried. Has something happened to him?

51. stostosto - 8/26/1999 5:16:55 PM

And now I am at it: How about RustlerPike? Someone mentioned that he'd been trying to get in here - but that's a while ago. So why hasn't he arrived yet?

52. stostosto - 8/26/1999 5:20:00 PM

And now I am still at it: What about Mr. mschindler of Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada? Or the Tamil we had briefly in the last week of TWWWPSæakd?

53. stostosto - 8/26/1999 5:22:30 PM

Sorry if I seem impatient. But I think this playground is so fine already - so why aren't all my pals here to play with me?

54. alistairconnor - 8/26/1999 5:29:20 PM

Sto - I'm delighted to see you, I believe you were kept out for a while by what I suspect was a browser-specific bug, for which I apologise. What particular browser do you use?

The puzzling thing is that 109109 was the only other person locked out by that bug. I just wonder what he was doing with a Danish version of IE 2.01 or whatever?

55. alistairconnor - 8/26/1999 5:30:14 PM

I think Marj is in England, and he's unreliable about checking and returning e-mails at the best of times. Perhaps someone else has more reliable information?

56. stostosto - 8/27/1999 9:32:37 AM

alistairconnor
My browser is IE, Version 3.02. That's at my job. But I think I had the same problem at home with an IE 5 browser - but I am not sure.

57. stostosto - 8/27/1999 9:32:41 AM

alistairconnor
My browser is IE, Version 3.02. That's at my job. But I think I had the same problem at home with an IE 5 browser - but I am not sure.

58. stostosto - 8/27/1999 9:33:16 AM

That's odd. I only posted that once. Honestly!

59. alistairconnor - 8/27/1999 9:39:53 AM

Don't touch that Refresh button!

60. Bubbaette - 8/27/1999 9:40:32 AM

Sto

If you hit refresh after you post, you will automatically post again. Instead, go to "List all Threads" and come back in order to refresh. I'm sure the cabal will have this bug fixed by and by.

61. alistairconnor - 8/27/1999 9:45:38 AM

Not a bug. Just use the "Go to most recent message" button. That will refresh.

62. ChristinO - 8/27/1999 2:23:50 PM

Rustler,

You here yet? I don't know what else to say on the matter. I think the kid is a piece of shit. I can't even begin to comprehend how his family must feel but I'm in no position to judge them for trying to protect their child even as bad as he is. I don't see that Israel had any choice but to declare him a citizen if that's what their law says. The law cannot just be changed overnight because you hit a particularly nasty glitch, but at least this situation has possibly shown a way to strengthen and improve the law.

63. RustlerPike - 8/27/1999 2:25:15 PM

Anyhow - CalGal, the fuss about the non-extradition is old news. The newer fuss is that he was given a relatively light sentence, by American standards. Also - it seems the whole thing was leaked by the American prosecutors, after they had been told, confidentially, of the Israeli decision to plea bargain.

But what I read here is that this plea was agreed to because the guy's accomplice is dead, so it would have been hard to prove which of the two bastards did the actual killing (Scheinbein 'only' admits to dismembering the body). And apparently, 24 years is pretty much the harshest sentence you can get here for any single crime (according to what I've read).

64. RustlerPike - 8/27/1999 2:27:09 PM

Chris:

If what I heard is true, the law has already been changed to prevent these things happening, but the glitch here was that the scuzzwad was a minor when he committed the offense.

65. ChristinO - 8/27/1999 2:31:03 PM

Rustler,

The kid is 17 years old. He's going to prison for at least 16 years. That's nearly the whole of his life to date and possibly longer. I can't look at that and say it's nothing. I think the problem comes because many people want some kind of equivalency: take a life? Lose your life or enough of it so that you have nothing anyway.

My problem with this is that there is no such thing as equivalency. It cannot be attained and therefore to desire it is pointless and to rage after it is a waste of time and energy.

66. ChristinO - 8/27/1999 2:35:17 PM

Of course I'm probably not the best person to talk to about sentencing. I'm disgusted by the crime and can't understand how anyone could do something like this to another human being but I try to imagine what 16 years or 30 years or even 2 years in prison is like and no matter what people say I can't see that it's just some routine, mundane thing to get through.

Ask me what I wanted to do to the rapist that chopped off his victims arms who was recently released----he served less than 10 years. I get so angry and so sick over it.

67. RustlerPike - 8/27/1999 3:17:14 PM

CO: yeah. One of the guys at my workplace was downloading snuff films from the Internet the other day. I was shown one - a guy getting his hand chopped off in Saudi - and it made me real sick. I told the bastard to quit downloading the crap. I hate sadism more than anything.

68. CalGal - 8/27/1999 3:18:18 PM

Anyhow - CalGal, the fuss about the non-extradition is old news.

Not at all. The outrage over the light sentence is directly linked to the original non-extradition.

69. RustlerPike - 8/27/1999 3:29:24 PM

CG: Oh well. Whatever. If there's no reason to think the sentence was too light, there's no reason to get angry again.

70. CalGal - 8/27/1999 3:50:42 PM

Right, but the whole point is that the US was dependent on some other country's version of justice--for a crime that was committed here. It is untenable, which is why the fuss. If the kid had been given an appropriately severe penalty, the feeling would be more "Well, despite their bullshit law, an appropriate penalty was meted out." The obstacle to justice was overcome--basically by luck. The anger would still be there, since the obstacle is considered to be objectionable.

The fact that the obstacle actually obstructed what an appropriate sentence just renews the outrage. If he'd been given a light sentence over here, at least the laws of this land would have been used.

71. ChristinO - 8/27/1999 3:55:55 PM

Does the US extradite its citizens to other countries? I know there are or at least were countries that wouldn't extradite anyone citizen or not, but how many countries actually extradite their own citizens? I'd be curious to find that Israel is the only one that doesn't.

72. ChristinO - 8/27/1999 4:13:55 PM

CG,

Think of it this way: Remember the outrage over the caning of the American graffit bandit in Singapore?

We've had two mainstream movies with big-name stars in the past year and a half dealing with the issue of Americans who fall afoul of drug laws in Thailand and Malaysia.

Granted the situation is a bit different since there was no question of actual citizenship, but the fact remains that had we been able to extract these people without warfare we would have done so.

The Israeli court originally decreed that Sheinbein was not a citizen because he had not ever previously expressed interest in his status, but the lawyer for the defense brought up an extremely sound issue on appeal: that no other country in the world has such a conditional citizenship. So on appeal the decision was overturned. It had nothing to do with Israel not wanting to extradite the animal and everything to do with following the laws that were currently in place.


I think it's also important to note that extraditing Sheinbein to the US would not neccessarily have guaranteed him a stronger sentence. It's no guarantee that he would have been found guilty of anything more than mutilating a corpse. Now all of America apparently believes him guilty of murder, but there has been no trial and is not likely to be one so I find the assumption of many of these people that he would have "fried" if he'd been returned to us just a little fanatical.

People were deprived of what they believed was their right: to execute Sheinbein for murder. I would imagine that outrage over a blow to US dignity or sovereignty is secondary at best and mostly just a smoke screen for thwarted vengeance.

73. CalGal - 8/27/1999 4:29:46 PM

I think it's also important to note that extraditing Sheinbein to the US would not neccessarily have guaranteed him a stronger sentence.

As I said, the lightness or heaviness of his sentence is only secondary. The fact that people are upset and think he should be fried is also largely irrelevant. I'm just pointing out that the real upset is due to the fact that the guy was an American citizen who used an accident of birth and a convenient Israeli law to bypass the American justice system--and that the Israelis let him. (BTW, you are ignoring the fact that Israel's citizenship law is entirely different from anywhere else, and that difference is at the heart of the matter--You're Jewish? You're in.)

Whether or not he would have done better, deserved more, and so on is not at the root of the outrage. No matter what people say.

American citizens who break the laws in other country have nothing to do with this situation.

. I would imagine that outrage over a blow to US dignity or sovereignty is secondary at best and mostly just a smoke screen for thwarted vengeance.

You've misstated it. The guy made a travesty out of an Israeli law and the Israelis let him by allowing him to escape US justice. It's not about US dignity or sovereignity. It's about Israel's. And, to be fair, they know it. That's why they changed their law, because this guy made them look like the pawns they were.

74. ChristinO - 8/27/1999 4:48:39 PM

I'm aware of Israel's citizenship policy allowing all Jews to claim citizenship, but Sheinbein did not claim citizenship through that policy. Sheibein's citizenship follows the same line as children born to English citizens of Hong Kong or Barbados. Even American children born abroad can claim US citizenshipt through their parents. Sheinbein's claim is one of birth to parents who were born and lived in Israel before coming to the US.

If his only claim was through his Jewishness then I'd be more inclined to agree, but it is not.

75. RustlerPike - 8/28/1999 2:11:10 AM

Chris is right, though I admit I haven't been following the story in great detail. as for Israel's citizenship law being different from anywhere else: I'm not sure it is. I think the Germans - after WW2 - used ethnicity as a criterion for giving citizenship to Germans who had been living in areas of Germany that were taken over by the Poles, etc. (however - I could be totally wrong about that, please don't lynch me if I am).

In any case, it's not that we are more racist than anyone else, imho - Israel's citizenship law is unique, but so is its situation: a country for a nation of people that were country-less for 1800 years, and were scattered all over the globe. The way I see it, when you say 'Jew' you are saying 'a descendant of the people of Judea'. So in a way, a modern American Jew gets Israeli citizenship because his great-great-great (etc.) grandparents were 'citizens' of Judea, and this 'citizenship' was kept intact over the generations by the Jewish religion's laws of Jewishness (matrilineal descent, basically).

By giving the Jews all over the world a right to become Israeli citizens you are granting them a special privilege, true. But if you deny them this right, you are placing them in a situation of special disadvantage, imo. Most other ethnic minorities (excepting those in the US, which is a special case) have a homeland they can conceivably go back to, perhaps even tell which village or town their grandparents hail from. Jews don't.

76. msgreer - 8/28/1999 2:26:24 AM

RustlerPike

I agree with your post #75.

I am Jewish and maybe it takes being Jewish to understand the importance for Jews to know they have a place to go.

My father made all me and my 4 sisters always have our passports in order... even at a young age. He put away money in a safe deposit box for each of us. I am saying 5 different security boxes.

His feeling was "it could happen again and don't forget it. if we have to we will all meet in Israel".

This comes from a man who last 90% of his family in the Holocaust.

He got away because a non-Jewish family took him out of Poland and got him to the United States which was no easy task at the time.

I can understand why he did what he did.

As a girl growing up the friends he had who lived through the Holocaust found their way to Israel or the US. The ones I met who came to the US all had numbers on their arms. I remember being horrified and scared as a young girl when I saw the markings on their arms.

ChristinO

I do know Mexico will not extradite one of its citizens to the US if they maybe facing the death penalty.

There is a big case in my city where a man who lived in TX. but was a Mexican killed a women in my city and fled to Mexico.

This community wanted this man very badly.

It turned out he was hired by the woman's ex-husband to kill her. He had 3 other men helping him. They were found in TX. and got sent back here immediately.

In order to get the guy who fled to Mexico the Justice Department got involved. It took close to year to get him back here. But a deal had been struck. He would never get the death penalty. If he is found guilty he can spend the rest of his life in jail but will never visit our infamous electric chair.

77. CalGal - 8/28/1999 2:34:29 AM

I don't recall using the word racist. And, as I mentioned earlier (in the other thread), there are many emotionally compelling reasons for the Israelis to have the law. I'm not criticizing the law. I'm just pointing out that this guy made the Israelis pawns because they accept all comers, due to that law.

Incidentally, his father was not born in Israel, but in Palestine, when it was under British rule--which makes it even more ridiculous, somehow.

The target of U.S. anger is not the Israeli legal system that gave him this ridiculously light sentence (this particular murder was just "practice" for his "real" murder). The anger is rooted in the fact that this monster used another country to escape US justice. Most Americans know that satisfactory trials aren't always the outcome here, either.

The Israelis, apparently, agree with this. They changed the law so that they don't get used again.

78. RustlerPike - 8/28/1999 2:48:47 AM

CalGal:

Like I said, people rarely ever get more than what Scheinbein got in an Israeli court, for any single offense (so I understand). And if the prosecution had been unable to prove murder, he wouldn't have even gotten that. Let's just hope he gets buttfucked a lot.

79. msgreer - 8/28/1999 2:56:33 AM

CalGal

I hope you did not take my post to mean I felt this young man had a case in declaring Israeli citizenship.

As you said Israel changed its laws so this can't happen again.

I was speaking of Jews who live with the reality that at any given moment in time Jews can get blamed for the ills of a country. And people will believe it again.

It is under those conditions that make Jewish people feel vulnerable.

It would be foolish to think there is not another Hitler out there.

Even now when it comes to failurs in the economic stability of a country the comments come out which suggests "it is the Jews again".

I don't spend alot of time thinking about it but I know it is out there. To believe anti-semetism does not exist throughout the world is just pure ignorance.

I know my father and mother begged me not to put my entire name on my passport because it looked like and sounded like a Jewish name. They said why invite trouble? And then a TWA airplane was hijacked afew years ago and all passports were collected. The hijackers told the flight attendant to go through each one and pick out the ones with Jewish names on it. Granted nothing happen to the Jewish folks on that flight but it was a damned scary story to all Jews everywhere.

Then there was the time a cruise ship was hijacked. The hijackers shot a Jewish man in a wheelchair and through him overboard. There story was he died of a heart attack. The problem with that story was this mans body washed ashore. He had several bullets in his head. The autopsy showed he did not have a heart attack but was killed in cold blood and thrown overboard.

Jewish people hear horrible anti-semetic remarks all the time. I know I do.

The prejudice is alive and well. And it doesn't feel good.

80. pellenilsson - 8/28/1999 3:57:39 AM

Sweden does not extradite its citizens. If they have committed a crime abroad which is punishable under Swedish law they can be tried in Sweden in the presence of prosecutors from the other country. Sweden also does not extradite foreign citizens if they have committed a crime that could incur the death penalty.

Rustler is right about German citizenship laws. Ethnic Germans get automatic citizenship. That was the case with the so called Volga Germans who came from the Soviet Union. Many of them didn't speak German. The same goes for the German communities in Rumania and elsewhere.

81. pellenilsson - 8/28/1999 5:57:58 AM

Here are some first impressions from Mozambique.

Maputo looks like the archetypical third world city. The buildings, even rather new ones, are a bit dilapidated. The streets are full of loopholes. There is a lot of pedestrian traffic due to a lack of public transport and lack of money to pay for rides on the privately operated mini-bus routes. They drive on the left here, which creates some problems for me. A factoid that you are not likely to know is that in Sweden, we too drove on the left until 1967. But we did it in cars that had the steering wheel on the left. So it is not the left-hand driving per se that troubles me, but doing it with the steering wheel on the right side. The controls (except the pedals) are reversed too. I constantly find myself turning on the wipers when I want to indicate a turn, and hitting the window handle when I want to change gear. I solved the latter difficulty by putting the car in second gear at the start and never shift, although today I became adventurous and actually had it in third gear a couple of times. The traffic is rather light and driving habits are quite gentle, but complicated situations seem to develop all the time.

Mozambique is a poor country. The legal minimum wage was recently increased from $28 to $34 per month. Something like 70% of the population live in rural areas. The majority of them are subsistence farmers who are not at all connected to the monetary economy. They walk to the market once a week and barter for the necessities they cannot produce themselves.

The country is also recovering from a long and bloody civil war which started when the Salazar regime in Portugal collapsed in the early 1970’s. The ‘revolutionaries’ simply abandoned Angola and Mozambique. Marxist-type parties took power in both countries and civil wars broke out.

82. pellenilsson - 8/28/1999 5:59:46 AM

The insurgents were supported by South Africa and, in the case of Angola, by the US. (Wasn’t that chap Sawimbi shown strutting around at Reagan’s side once?) With the ending of white rule in South Africa, the war in Mozambique ended too, because there wasn’t really anything to fight about. In Angola there is – diamonds and oil – and there the war continues.

Nowadays Mozambique has an elected parliament with new elections due in December. Marxism is long gone; liberalisation and privatisation are the buzz words of today. But the heritage lives on. Today I did some shopping on Avenida Vladimir Lenin and on my way there I crossed Avenida Ho Chi Minh.

Mozambique’s major export commodity is hydroelectric power to South Africa from a huge plant on the Zambezi river. It is a bit ironic then, that most of the rural areas here lack power, a major disadvantage when it comes to building a telecommunications infrastructure. Solar power is feasible but expensive.

The official language here is Portuguese. There are said to be several indigenous languages but I have no information on them. Our absent host might be interested to know that there is a not insignificant community of Goan origin. The Director General of the monopoly telecom operator is one of them. His surname is Fernandez, which is said to be a reliable indicator of Goan ancestry.

83. RustlerPike - 8/28/1999 7:47:28 AM

MSGreer:

If you feel so strongly about it why not come live in Israel?

84. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/28/1999 7:48:39 AM

Pelle:
Thanks for the update on Maputo, a city I don't think I have ever read about or seen pictures of. You paint a very vivid picture, and it is much appreciated. It sounds very similar to third-world cities I know in a very different part of the world (except for the gentle driving).

Please treat us to your further observations while in Maputo. By the way, I have a hard time imagining streets full of loopholes. Is that a kind of bureaucratic pothole?

85. msgreer - 8/28/1999 9:56:56 AM

RustlerPike

I have given alot of thought about moving to Israel. I believe I will move to Israel one day.

However I have a mother who lives a block away from me who needs alot of help and support at the moment. I would never leave her now.

I also have a mentally challenged daughter who lives in a residency for the adult mentally challenged outside of Boston.

But one day we will meet in Israel.

86. stostosto - 8/28/1999 6:07:38 PM

pelle
Thanks for the report. I am curious: Is your presence there pure Ericsson business, or is it funded by UN or SIDA? (And for how long can the Swedish development aid agency continue to have a name which means AIDS in French?)

87. Dusty - 8/28/1999 6:17:08 PM

pellenilsson

Thanks for the impressions from Mozambique.

A factoid that you are not likely to know is that in Sweden, we too drove on the left until 1967.

I not only knew this, I remember it. I was fascinated that they would do this, and it is a moderately important issue when discussing path dependence (we'll see if that smokes S&M out), although that thought hadn't occurred to me until just now.

I believe they had a day in-between the conversion, partly to allow the roads department to change lots of signs, and also to get people to think about the change-over. I'm sure there must be stories about absent-minded people who forgot, but I don't recall reading any of those stories.

88. Dusty - 8/28/1999 6:20:12 PM

I was a bit cryptic. On the in-between day, no one was allowed to drive (except, I presume, road crews) I assume they declared it a public holiday, which probably qualifies it as some sort of trivia. (what's the most unusual reason for a public hoiday in a major country.)

89. SpenceMirrlees - 8/28/1999 7:09:01 PM

"it is a moderately important issue when discussing path dependence"

Offers some corroboration for the idea that changing paths in the presence of network externalities requires some planned intervention.

Surely it's not definitive, but let's put it this way: the posterior on whether planned intervention is necessary, given that it was used, has got to be bigger than the prior.

Maybe not much bigger, beause lord knows the Swedes would've probably used planned intervention even if it wasn't necessary.

90. ProfEmeritus - 8/28/1999 11:38:27 PM

Well, irv isn't the only famous person to be in Jakarta. Paul Krugman is also there, sounding off on the Indonesian and other Asian economies. He believes Indonesian has not yet turned the corner toward recovery. He points to several major unresolved problem: the failure to deal with the large corporate debt to foreigners, the failure to restore the banking system to meet the credit needs of a recovering economy, the persistence of corruption and cronyism as shown by the recent Bali Bank debacle in which $80 million was illegally tranferred to Habibie's Golkar party (a move that both the IMF and the World Bank have stronly criticized), and the continuing political uncertainty, pending the November parliamentary selection of the new president. There is nothing new in these observations; Krugman is a good listener. He might have added the problem of violence in East Timor leading up to Monday's vote on independence or continued association with Indonesia under a grant of greater autonomy.

91. alistairconnor - 8/29/1999 12:22:49 AM

That vote is giving me cold sweat. The pro-jakarta bandits have already announced

92. alistairconnor - 8/29/1999 12:30:33 AM

... that if they lose, but not by much (i.e. if only 60 or 70% vote for full independence) they will launch a full-scale civil war. And they seem to be running round the streets of Dili with automatic weapons shooting people while the police look on.

In spite of this and their systematic attempts to obstruct voter registration (armed intimidation of both villagers and UN voter registration teams), I have little doubt that there will be 80-90% for independence. Those people have been fighting for it for too long to abandon it now, never mind whether the country is economically viable or not.

But there will probably be a bloodbath anyway, given the attitude of the Indonesian military, police and government.

93. pellenilsson - 8/29/1999 3:49:12 AM

Irv

I have a hard time imagining streets full of loopholes.

That is pure Freud. When I wrote that post I had just finished reading a draft of the new Telecommunication Law.

Dusty

On the in-between day, no one was allowed to drive (except, I presume, road crews) I assume they declared it a public holiday, which probably qualifies it as some sort of trivia.

You seriously underestimate Swedish efficiency. On the change-over night traffic was closed from 1 a.m. to 5 a.m.

sto

And for how long can the Swedish development aid agency continue to have a name which means AIDS in French?

Well it doesn't mean AIDS in French, it is AIDS, although I suppose that's what you meant. Agence Internationale de Developpement (sp?) Suedoise. I really don't know why they keep it. SIDA is also confused with CIDA, the Canadian agency.

I don't work for Ericsson but for a consulting subsidiary of Telia. Here in Mocambique we have a subsidiary company jointly owned by us and Telecommumicações do Moçambique. We are 13 people here right now, about half on long-term assignments.

94. joezan - 8/29/1999 10:21:59 AM

SIDA is AIDS in Spanish...

95. stostosto - 8/29/1999 5:41:50 PM

pelle

I didn't know that SIDA is AIDS in French. I just happened to know that AIDS is SIDA in French, thus SIDA means AIDS in French. (SIDA betyder AIDS på franska). (Probably something like Syndrome Immune Déffèt Acquiré).

And according to joezan also in Spanish. Perhaps even in Portuguese?

That means that the agency goes by this somewhat burdened name in many of the countries in which it operates. It just struck me as a possible PR drawback...

96. stostosto - 8/29/1999 5:49:14 PM

pelle

Re the Swedish transition to right side driving:

I think I've read somewhere that it was managed by Olof Palme who was minister of traffic at the time, and that he scored a big political success by that.

I also seem to remember that there was not a single death accident as a result of the transition. I was only three years old at the time myself, but I remember my father being very fascinated by the smoothness and effective handling of the event.

(Of course, this memory doesn't date back to 1967 but perhaps 1974, attesting to the lingering impression it left on my dad).

97. DanDillon - 8/29/1999 6:37:29 PM

SIDA is AIDS in French and Spanish, though I'm not certain about Portuguese. SIDA is also used in many countries that are colonized by the French or Spanish or were so within the last several decades. The lingering language of the colonizers has had a profound enough effect on the colony's native language(s) for SIDA to remain a borrowing.

98. joezan - 8/29/1999 8:00:40 PM

sto:

I also seem to remember that there was not a single death accident as
a result of the transition.

Musta been all them Volvos...

99. dusty - 8/29/1999 8:34:10 PM

pellenilsson

You seriously underestimate Swedish efficiency. On the change-over night traffic was closed from 1 a.m. to 5 a.m.

Cool. I remembered that they had a change-over period, but I apparently assumed it was a whole day.

S&M

yes, it is some corroboration for the need for intervention. However, it is also corroboration for the notion that path dependence can be overcome.

let's put it this way: the posterior on the expected cost of a path dependence now has a lower mean than the prior, given that it was used successfully.

100. pellenilsson - 8/30/1999 6:53:42 AM

A centennial sitting for the taking.

So to clarify AIDS and SIDA.

The Swedish agency is SIDA in English and AIDS in French.

The illness is AIDS in English and SIDA in French.

As simple as that. No chance of misunderstandings.

101. alistairconnor - 8/30/1999 6:59:46 AM

Pelle : Try going to the Profile page, then enter your time zone. Then come back here.

(Link in yellow bar, "Edit your profile data")

102. pellenilsson - 8/30/1999 7:38:19 AM

That's lovely Alistair but by my watch it is 1:34 p.m here.

103. alistairconnor - 8/30/1999 7:41:03 AM

yes, Pelle, but what does your post say? i.e. does the timestamp correspond to your watch or not?

i.e. did the correction you entered with respect to GMT result in your getting the correct time?

(I am absolutely hopeless with time zones. They make my head spin.)

104. pellenilsson - 8/30/1999 7:44:45 AM

It is correct now. Very nice feature!

105. alistairconnor - 8/30/1999 7:46:44 AM

Well, with that, my friend, good night... 11.41 pm here, and flying to Tauranga tomorrow.

106. RustlerPike - 8/30/1999 9:55:33 AM

MsGreer:

It would be great if you did move out here. I imagine you've been to Israel?

107. RustlerPike - 8/30/1999 9:57:12 AM

Pelle:

You work for Ericsson? Their representative has had to leave Israel after his wife made an ugly anti-Jewish remark.

108. Dusty - 8/30/1999 10:00:39 AM

ProfEmeritus


I've been dismayed by the reports of pre-election violence. But it sounds like election day has been calmer.


On a related note, I saw reference to polling places outside the country. Is this common?

US citizens living outside the country can vote, but by absentee ballot, requiring mailing. I hadn't heard of polling places outside a country.

109. ProfEmeritus - 8/30/1999 10:30:14 AM

Dusty

Those external polling places are rare and reserved for special situations. In East Timor's case because the population has become dispersed because of local violence over the past two decades.

110. IrvingSnodgrass - 8/30/1999 11:25:59 AM

Dusty:
Indonesia had polling stations at embassies throughout the world for the June vote as well, so it is not unusual here.

111. RustlerPike - 8/30/1999 2:24:10 PM

MsGreer:

Maybe I should explain: I think we Jews basically belong in Jew-land: Israel. I read somewhere that 40% of senior partners in US law firms are Jews. If this is true, I can understand a lot of resentment building up against the Jews, even if they (the Jews) are doing nothing wrong. If there was a 3% minority group in Israel - say, the Druze - who were about 1/3 of the lawyers and doctors, I can see how that would create serious resentment. I figure - whoever feels any kind of clear Jewish identity should come over here. Whoever doesn't is probably better off assimilating and giving up on his Jewishness. I think the days of the Diaspora Jew are almost over.

112. SpenceMirrlees - 8/30/1999 4:23:13 PM

Dusty:

whoever said that path dependence can't be overcome?

113. JonesAtLaw - 8/30/1999 9:55:14 PM

Rustler- I would be quite surprised to find that even 30 percent of senior partners were Jews. It is true that there is an over representation of Jews in professions compared to the population, but nothing as extreme as you assume. It may be true that a large portion of senior partners in New York are Jews, given the much larger population there, but even so it is not as extreme as you suppose.

114. pellenilsson - 8/31/1999 6:55:16 AM

Rustler

If you had read a few posts back you would have known that I don't work for Ericsson but for Telia, the dominant telecom operator in Sweden.

It's always bad taste to make hostile remarks about the people in one's host country, but I guess Israel is a singlarly ill-chosen country to do it in. Was it at some public or semi-public occasion?

115. RustlerPike - 8/31/1999 7:31:13 AM

Pelle:

Sorry for thinking you worked for Ericsson. Anyhow, the story was she was at some kind of horse ranch where she kept her horse, and she thought someone had stolen her stirrups or something (something small which is apparently no big deal anyways). Then she apparently started going off at the mouth about the Jews all being liars and manipulators, and concluded with 'it's too bad Hitler didn't finish the job'. That's whatthe workers on theranch say, anyway. Ericsson, it seems, believes them.

116. stostosto - 8/31/1999 10:13:20 AM

Rustler

That story is hard to believe. Not only is the woman a stinking ugly racist. She is also stupid beyond any conceivable limit.

117. RustlerPike - 8/31/1999 2:05:38 PM

sto3: yeah, and/or she has a serious problem of some sort.

118. cmboyce - 8/31/1999 6:44:42 PM

The Indonesian militias in East Timor appear to have declared war on the United Nations.

119. alistairconnor - 9/1/1999 5:29:06 AM

A bloodbath is looking more and more likely. Though the voting itself went beautifully, and the count will undoubtedly give a huge majority for independance, the militias are apparently planning on mayhem.

Who pays these people? Who gives them their guns?

The local military don't seem to be taking orders from Jakarta - or rather, in some places they are maintaining law and order, and in others they are looking on as the militias run amok.

A UN peacekeeping force is urgently needed, and won't happen - these things take months. Australia, New Zealand and others have troops on standby, but they need the consent of Indonesia to step in.

A fascinating drama is going to be played out next week in Auckland, my home town, at the APEC summit. The Indonesian president and foreign minister will be there, and possibly also Wiranto, the head of the military. I hope he is. He is undoubtedly the decider.
The other governments will try to pressure Indonesia into stopping the bloodshed - and that means foreign troops. The results of the referendum will be known by then.

120. RustlerPike - 9/1/1999 6:12:45 AM

JonesatLaw:

30% is still about 10 times the proportion of Jews in the general population. I wonder if there is any way to get at reliable stats.

121. pellenilsson - 9/1/1999 6:44:15 AM

Rustler

I didn't get the opportunity to respond yesterday. Your short description of events make me understand that the woman belongs to a particular category of expatriates which I always do my best to keep away from. They usually come from a middle class background and happen to get a well-paid senior position abroad. Their heads swell and they start doing things they would not do at home such as playing golf, going for horse-back riding, perhaps having a servant or two around the house. They aspire to be 'fine' people, but their manners often don't match their pretensions. I have observed this in Swedes but I guess it happens to other nationals too.

122. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/1/1999 7:47:01 AM

alistair:
Who pays these people? Who gives them their guns?

Evidently, it's elements of the Indonesian military who are either a) no longer taking their orders from Jakarta, or b) are still taking orders from Jakarta and Jakarta is denying it. Could be either.

The militias need to be squashed, and only an outside force will be able to do that. Until then, the referendum is meaningless.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that Wiranto would put up with rogue elements, and I have a strong feeling that this comes from the top. The Indonesian military is completely unwilling to admit it made a mistake 24 years ago, and I just can't see them peacefully letting East Timor go. If they leave the militias behind (and continue to support them), they can claim that East Timor was not ready for independence, that a significant portion of the people wanted to stay with Indonesia and are fighting for it, etc. Without Indonesian military support, the militias wouldn't even exist. They are an intentionally planted booby trap designed to screw up any transition process. What they are missing (along with the fact that the international community isn't buying it, and the Indonesian press isn't allowing them to get away with it) is the fact that a vast majority of the Indonesian people are sick of East Timor and would love to be rid of it. If you held a referendum in Indonesia on East Timor, independence for the half-island would win by an even larger majority than it will in East Timor itself.

123. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/1/1999 7:54:00 AM

I find it fascinating that Xanana Gusmão is an admired and liked media star in Indonesia, despite the fact that he is still serving a jail sentence for his guerilla campaign against the Indonesian military. This says a lot about the public's current feelings about the military, and East Timor, too, for that matter. Xanana is very charismatic, and has strong support among Indonesians of all stripes. He's due to be released from house arrest next week. Things will get even more interesting then.

124. ProfEmeritus - 9/1/1999 11:40:33 AM

Irv

Did you see the analysis by Professor George J. Aditjondro in the Sydney Morning Herald a few weeks ago? He argues that the Indonesian military supports the militia because the military leadership are all involved in the profits from Suhartos's extensive business interest in TimTim. If his information is correct it explains a lot. All the current and former military officers, as well as the civilian leaders were involved in the Suharto stranglehold of the economy. The details Aditjondron provides are shocking.

Aditjondro in a Lecturer in Sociology and Anthropology at the University of Newcastle. Let me know if you would like an email copy of his long article.

125. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/1/1999 12:08:58 PM

ProfE:
No, I missed the article, though if it came off the mailing list we're both on, I may have a copy around.

Aditjondro's correct position is "Professor of Corruption Studies," as his usual bio puts it. No one is more knowledgeable about the excesses of the Suharto era (and the Habibie era, for that matter). His book detailing the corruption of the Suharto and Habibie families has been a bestseller here for nearly a year. So, if that's his take on the military in East Timor, I'm quite sure he's right.

126. RustlerPike - 9/1/1999 2:55:33 PM

Pelle:

Well, it (the uppity expatriate syndrome) happens to Israelis too, unfortunately, but mostly when stationed in third world countries. Maybe to high-paid Swedes Israel seems like a levantine, poor country? I really don't know. I doubt they could afford Israeli servants though. Maybe an illegal alien from Ghana or the Philippines.

Btw, in my capacity as copywriter I write brochures for Cellcom, Israel's leading cellular company (serving 1,300,000 clients!). We do stuff for Nokia and Ericsson too, seeing as Cellcom markets their phones. Orange has made an impressive entrance into the cellular market here, and has 200 thousand clients. The third cellular provider, Pelephone, has 900 thousand. This is out of a total population of about 6 million! What a crazy country.

127. cmboyce - 9/2/1999 10:12:41 AM

Irv or ProfE: a question perhaps more appropriate to the Language thread, but pertinent here and quickly enough disposed of:

is "Aditjondro" etymologically "Alexander"? And if so, in what language? Is Professor A. an Indonesian?

128. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/2/1999 10:31:24 AM

cm:
No, Aditjondro is not an Indonesian form of any Western name. Prof. George Aditjondro is an Indonesian of Chinese descent. His name is from Javanese, and ultimately from Sanskrit (where it is usually Romanized as "Chandra").

129. alistairconnor - 9/3/1999 12:01:36 AM

Thanks, ProfE. The corruption angle clears up the military's attitude completely. I presume though that it must involve the local commanders on an individual basis, in order to explain the fact that some are doing their job and some not.

Now, the question is whether Habibie genuinely wants a relatively peaceful transition to independance, and whether Wiranto is prepared to countenance it.
If not, Indonesia is heading for a major and on-going international embarassment, which will certainly poison the existence of the incoming president. Perhaps that's all part of the plan.

I've seen news reports that Javanese immigrants are leaving East Timor by the busload, fearful of a backlash against them. I suspect that this is a psychosis fostered by the militias rather than a legitimate worry, and will make life extremely difficult for an independent East Timor, as the immigrants apparently hold all the key administrative and economic positions.

130. cmboyce - 9/3/1999 12:36:31 AM

Looking ahead, and supposing an independent East Timor comes to be, I would imagine that the technocrats et al would come back. A job market's a strong attraction.

OTOH, if there is not to be an independent East Timor, it will be because the place has been rendered too hellish to survive anyway, by the army and the militias. Of course, there's a beyond beyond that, but in it, the economic health and/or morale of Timorians would presumeably be of no interest to its government.

I honestly wonder if there is any likelihood at all of anything but that last eventuality eventuating. One would hope such an outcome would make Indonesia a pariah, like Iraq, but for the unfairness to the majority of Indonesians who'd gladly cut East Timor loose. But in any case, it won't. The fourth most populous country is much too important to superpower politics and global marketing to be slapped. But the process (of forcibly holding East Timor) may exhaust Indonesia to the point that the recent reforms would lose their momentum. I'm not sure they haven't; it doesn't look to me as though the legislature is going to be lost to the Suharto-Habibie old-boy network, Megawati government or no.

Perhaps some future government could undo the damage this fit of possessiveness on the part of the old boys is doing, but one supposes it would have to be a truly democratically elected one with nothing to gain from wringing out the Timorians, and I fear not only for East Timor in this mess, but for the prospect that genuine democracy can take hold.

Does this frustrated screed make any sense?

131. RustlerPike - 9/3/1999 6:18:10 AM

I'm interested in Pelle, sto's and other Europeans' angle on this great little piece on a wonderful little man; and also about Swiss banks, Swiss society, and the Holocaust. I'd like to hear your takes on Meili's theory about Switzerland never having undergone 'de-Nazification'.

I wonder why it is that the Jews get such a bad rap for having been bankers, while - when you talk about the Swiss as a nation of bankers - the image is of a squeaky clean, very respectable business, and no one has a problem with it. Obviously, the Swiss bankers are as prone to being rotten, cheating, lying scumbags as anyone else.

132. pellenilsson - 9/3/1999 6:49:13 AM

Rustler

I will get back to you tomorrow.

Btw, there is a HTML tag you are supposed to add to your links so they open in a new window. I don't know it (because I spend so little time posting these days) but somebody else reading this surely does.

133. stostosto - 9/3/1999 7:26:52 AM

Rustler
I have personally always mistrusted the Swiss, finding them smug reactionay and small-minded. This confirms my prejudice - and it's not the first time the Swiss have treated a whistleblower against the establishment's rooted interests as a national traitor. I remember an equally disgraceful case that got some media attention some ten years ago. More later.

134. RustlerPike - 9/3/1999 8:08:40 AM

OK, pellesto: thanks for the prompt responses! I await your further opinions, pelle (or anyone else). Pelle: last time I experimented with html the entire Mote almost turned into a supernova, but I'd be glad to know what that tag is anyway.

135. stostosto - 9/3/1999 10:32:55 AM

Rustler

I'll probably have to add that I don't believe all Swiss are smug, reactionary and small-minded. It's my stereotype of choice when thinking of them. But one should be careful with stereotypes, as I am sure you'd agree. (Could be interesting if we had a Swiss Motist weighing in on this). And this guy, Christoph Meili, certainly defies this one admirably, even if he has had to pay a steep price.

But the reaction against him, not only from the Swiss establishment, but from the Swiss public at large, certainly suggests that this country has a problem with facing its past. There is apparently a deep-seated need to defend a self-image built on a precarious foundation.

On the face of it, a call for de-nazification of Switzerland is absurd, since the country was never actually Nazist. But I can see why he speaks of it in the sense that it's a process where you have to fess up to what you have done or haven't done - and what selfish interests you have been pursuing on the huge expense of so many hapless other people.

Switzerland is by no means alone in having avoided that kind of self-scrutinization. All the German occupied countries, Denmark included, have lots of grievances, and you can ask pelle about the Swedish experience as a non-occupied country. (Stories about Jewish gold for Swedish iron ore, no questions asked; allowing German troops passing through to Norway, etc.)

136. stostosto - 9/3/1999 10:33:51 AM

But it seems the Swiss denial is particularly fierce. And I think there is a kind of omerta ethic at work in this country. If you rock the boat, you effectively are frozen out. That case I hinted at earlier involved Rhone-Poulenc, the pharmaceuticals giant. They were involved in some serious wrong-doing (pollution of the Rhine on a major scale, or something), and one employee decided to go public.

He was not only fired and harassed by the company, but also by the Swiss police authorities, couldn't get a job anywhere, was essentially persona non grata, and - as I remember - his wife was driven to suicide by the whole thing.

There is a certain cosa nostra streak to such behaviour.

137. Dusty - 9/3/1999 10:37:52 AM

stostosto

I'm not Swiss, but I work for a Swiss company. I don't really like stereotypes becuase I don't think any ganfalloon can be captured accurately. I don't recognize the peopel you were talking about, but who knows, maybe I was obvious.

138. Dusty - 9/3/1999 10:44:45 AM

Oops, "ganfalloon" sb "granfalloon" (as if it wasn't obvious)

Looks like my post # 108 expressing some optimism re: East Timor was a bit premature. Sad to say.

139. stostosto - 9/3/1999 11:11:15 AM

Dusty

Did you read the article that Rustler linked to?

140. stostosto - 9/3/1999 11:11:19 AM

Dusty

Did you read the article that Rustler linked to?

141. Dusty - 9/3/1999 11:28:12 AM

stostosto

I hadn't, but after reading your post, I did.

142. Dusty - 9/3/1999 11:33:54 AM

Holy Cow, I need to preview better. In 137, I meant to say "oblivious". I trust the other typo wasn't as confisung.

143. Dusty - 9/3/1999 11:34:11 AM

::sigh::

144. stostosto - 9/3/1999 12:55:04 PM

Dytsu

No porlbem.

145. stostosto - 9/3/1999 12:55:05 PM

Dytsu

No porlbem.

146. stostosto - 9/3/1999 12:55:49 PM

Damn
Why are my posts doubled?

147. RustlerPike - 9/3/1999 3:43:46 PM

sto:

meileh (Hebrew for 'never mind') your posts, why is your name tripled?!

148. RustlerPike - 9/3/1999 3:45:37 PM

I had a wonderful experience once, in a Swiss bank. But this may belong in the Genitalia!?!? thread.

149. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/3/1999 11:14:13 PM

Breaking News

The results of the East Timor referendum were just announced on Indonesian TV. 80% of the population voted for independence. Indonesia announced that it will abide by the results, and East Timor (Timor Loro Sae) will soon be an independent nation. This, of course, leads to many questions regarding the new nation's economic viability and security.

150. CalGal - 9/3/1999 11:29:10 PM

Wow. What are your thoughts?

151. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/4/1999 12:08:26 AM

I'm not sure yet. An independent East Timor will leave no opportunities for the Indonesian military to engage in corruption, so if that was their motivation, as ProfE maintains, they'll pull out and stay out. If, otoh, my surmise is correct, and the military wants to save face and show the world that East Timor is unstable, they will continue to clandestinely support an armed rebellion, and things will continue to be a mess. In either case, there will be armed thugs with nothing to lose roaming the new nation, and an international peacekeeping force may well be necessary.

As for economic viability, Indonesia provided a good deal of infrastructure during its occupation (schools, roads, hospitals), but these are already deteriorating (poor construction, due to the usual corrupt bidding practices), and there will be almost no administrators, engineers, teachers, doctors, etc. in East Timor once Indonesia leaves. No Indonesians will stay behind, no matter how altruistic their motives, because they will be targets as many East Timorese will feel it's payback time (and their emotions are understandable, to a degree).

What it all comes down to is an international effort will be needed to fund, and run the new nation and train East Timorese for the jobs Indonesia never bothered training them for. I hope the international community is ready to pour billions of dollars into an independent East Timor. The signs of their readiness have been uncertain.

If the international community comes to the rescue, and if the Indonesian military keeps its hands off, and if the Timor gap oil resources are better than what they seem to be right now, and if other products or resources are discovered or developed, then the quality of life in East Timor will be much better than it is right now. If these things don't come to be, then the people will suffer. But at least they'll have their freedom.

152. pellenilsson - 9/4/1999 3:29:15 AM

Rustler

I have nothing to add to sto's analysis. I can only confirm that
Swedish iron ore exports were paid for by Jewish (remelted) gold.
Up to last year the official position was that we knew nothing about
it until after the war. But in fact the concerned persons in the
government and at the central bank did know, or at least strongly
suspected, that some gold was of 'doubtful origin' as the contemporary
expression went.

The troop transit story is also true and there were several. I guess our
excuse is that we were in a very weak position with Germans on all
sides, also in Finland. I will deal with this in the History.

Sorry about the line breaks. I'm a poor Netscape user.

153. pellenilsson - 9/4/1999 8:28:48 AM

A few additional notes on Maputo.

I mentioned earlier that the streets are in fairly bad shape. But I now see that there is a massive repavement scheme in progress, and it seems to be moving ahead rather quickly.

GSM cellular phones are frequently seen and heard. There are nearly 10,000 of them in Maputo which is not bad in a poor country where the service has only been available since the beginning of the year. GSM is a fantastic success everywhere and a prime example of the benefits of standardisation. When I switched on my handset here it immediately logged on to the local network, and people who dial my Swedish number will be connected to me here.

The food is fairly good with a distinct Portuguese touch although the inevitable Chinese and Indian restaurants are there too. No McDonalds, no Kentucky Chicken. Yesterday night I had sardinhas asadas, charcoal grilled sardines, a dish that I like and which evokes pleasant memories from vacations more than 25 years ago in Algarve, then much less exploited than today. My idea of a relaxing day is to walk a bit along the beach looking at stones and various flotsam, swim for a while and then take a large espresso and a pre-lunch brandy, of the sweetish local variety, at a small café near the small fishing port, looking at the small boats coming in to unload their bewildering variety of fish.

A final observation. The African/Portuguese/Indian mix seems to produce some stunningly beautiful girls.

154. ranheim - 9/4/1999 8:52:21 AM

I am like Pelle : the most beautiful women that I have seen in my life are of multiple races.

I have always thought that Hong Kong had the best looking women, on average, that it has been my pleasure to view : combination of Brit and Chinese.

Singapore and Bangkok, too, had their share of stunning women. In Singapore it seemed to be a combination of Brit/Chinese/Malay. In Bangkok is was Brit/French/USA/Thai. Wonderful!

155. RickNelson - 9/4/1999 8:58:36 AM

Pellenilisson,
Do you think the Swedish people feel liability for the Jewish gold? It was a government and bank issue, but perhaps the pinch of German oppression was high in the minds of the officials. Therefore, liability of the people would exist within that context.

Or, as you mention it will be covered.

156. pellenilsson - 9/4/1999 8:59:01 AM

Why do I have the feeling ScottLoar will join this discussion soon, unless he is travelling that is.

Have to run. Afternoon snack and siesta are now called for.

157. RickNelson - 9/4/1999 8:59:11 AM

Irv,

Thanks for the update and thoughts.

158. ProfEmeritus - 9/4/1999 10:08:33 AM

Irv

It is helpful to subscribe to Irv's apecial Indonesia news service. I heard it here first.

With regard to corruption, I didn't mean to suggest that the wide involvement of the military and administration in the spoils was the only reason that both were resisting independence. I meant to suggest that it provided the incentives used by the Suharto mafia to induce their cronies to follow their machinations.

159. RustlerPike - 9/5/1999 12:18:05 AM

Please someone: is it OK to feed a goldfish breadcrumbs?

160. pellenilsson - 9/5/1999 2:57:33 AM

Rustler

My vast international experience tells me it's perfectly OK in principle, but read up on the fine print of your goldfish insurance policy first.

161. alistairconnor - 9/5/1999 8:54:40 PM

Can't resist posting this, from my favourite NZ political commentator, Russell Brown (his columns can be found here, but would be hard going for the uninitiated). Here, he is talking about the frenzied preparations for the APEC summit which will bring my lovely city to a standstill this week :


"Anyway, look out for CIA operatives this week - they'll be the ones
walking into lamp posts and getting lost in the Domain. Honestly, could there have been a more pathetic gaffe this week than the faxing of US Apec security documents to a South Auckland chicken farmer? Even when the poor man got in touch to say that they had the wrong fax number, the mighty brains in US intelligence - they're the people who organised the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade - kept on sending them."

162. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/5/1999 9:57:22 PM

alistair:
That's a great story. Thanks for posting it.

163. ProfEmeritus - 9/5/1999 10:45:10 PM

alistair:

That is a great report. I took the liberty of sending it to a good friend, a distinguished University of Washington Professor, who was born and raised in Wellington. I know he will enjoy learning what is happening in his beloved home town.

164. alistairconnor - 9/5/1999 10:52:55 PM

Well, if he was born and raised in Wellington, it's a safe bet that he's a rabid hater (or perhaps a cordial despiser) of my home town of Auckland...

165. stostosto - 9/6/1999 6:51:21 AM

Rustler:

"meileh (Hebrew for 'never mind') your posts, why is your name tripled?!"

What do you mean? On the contrary, my name is short for stostostosotsotstostosotsto.

166. stostosto - 9/6/1999 6:53:54 AM

Sorry, that should have been
stostostostostostostostosto, not stostostosotsotstostosotsto.

See why I truncated it?

167. RickNelson - 9/6/1999 9:07:31 AM

Alistair,
I would read more political commentary, if there were more Russell Browns.




Stupid CIA!!!

168. Uzmakk - 9/6/1999 9:21:38 AM

Alistairconner:

I thought you were in France. You are in Wellington,NZ? Do we have a Motie who posts from France?

169. Uzmakk - 9/6/1999 9:21:40 AM

Alistairconner:

I thought you were in France. You are in Wellington,NZ? Do we have a Motie who posts from France?

170. ranheim - 9/6/1999 9:36:18 AM

The AP reports that I have seen in local papers portray E. Timor as a disaster area. One of the local papers had a truck loaded with media personnel on the run. How do you closer to the scene read the situation?

171. ranheim - 9/6/1999 9:40:34 AM

#170

Add : picture

One of my local papers had a picture of a truck loaded . . .

172. RustlerPike - 9/6/1999 2:39:57 PM

stostostostostostostosto:

Is stostostostostostostosto your first or last name? Do you have a middle name?

173. stostosto - 9/6/1999 3:26:08 PM

RustlerPike:
Yes.

174. cmboyce - 9/7/1999 1:46:25 AM

I saw where the Australian PM nixed the use of an already prepared peacekeeping force to police East Timor on the grounds that one cannot go into another country without that country's invitation. But perhaps it would be well to ignore the technicalities and consider independent East Timor to have already been created and to be implicitly inviting assistance. Because if someone doesn't get in there quick, I fear the place will have few Timorese left, let alone infrastructure, etc.

175. alistairconnor - 9/7/1999 2:00:45 AM

cmb: That is certainly what one would wish. But bear in mind that Indonesia is the world's fifth(?) largest country, with a large and well-equipped military. "Good-neighbourly" relations have dictated that the issue of oppression of the East Timorese, though always present on the political agenda in Australia and New Zealand over the last 25 years, never led to anything approaching rupture or hostilities.

The Australian PM was simply saying what everyone knows, that no-one is sending troops into East Timor without the invitation of Jakarta. A hostile intervention against Indonesia would be as complicated to prepare as the Kosovo business, and although it has a clearer basis in international law -- nobody recognises the Indonesian annexation of East Timor -- it isn't going to happen.

What is now crucial is to constrain the Indonesians into issuing that invitation, pronto.

The United Nations is sending a fact-finding mission(!) and is "giving Indonesia a chance" to prove that it can re-establish order (!), they seem to be fast-tracking the issue but in the UN way, that means that anything more forceful is weeks away.

The only hope of attenuating the bloodbath that I can see, is if Clinton is prepared to thump the table and make it clear that he takes the issue seriously.

176. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/1999 3:45:58 AM

The problem is that the Indonesian government has no control over the military, and the military answers to no one, least of all international political and financial pressure.

If an Australian force invaded, it would be a bloodbath. You would have a force of 3,000 Aussies going up against 23,000 armed Indonesian soldiers and police currenty in East Timor. Sure, the Aussies are better trained and better equipped, but the Indonesians are familiar with the place and have the logistical edge, plus an enormous army in reserve.

Right now things are at an impasse. Billions of dollars in international aid to Indonesia hangs in the balance, and Habibie is frantic to keep this aid without publicly admitting he can't do anything about the military.

East Timor wan't officially be granted independence till the parliament meets late next month, at which time it will basically be a rubber stamp, as all parties in parliament (with the possible exception of the 38 military representatives) agree that East Timor will go free.

The problem is the intervening weeks, in which the military-supplied pro-Indonesia militias will continue to run roughshod over the unarmed pro-independence majority. These aren't age-old hateds we're talking about here... these militias were formed and armed in recent weeks in the run-up to the vote.

(continued)

177. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/1999 3:46:52 AM

The only solution, and one which appears to be gaining ground here, is for Habibie and the government to invite an international force in, with complete disregard for the military. This might end up in a civil war, with Habibie and the government (supported by the majority of the people) alongside the international troops, versus the military. What a mess that would be. I haven't seen any signs of reduced intransigence or reasonable thinking on the part of the military yet, and no sign of a quick resolution. Nobody seems to understand what the military thinks it will gain by doing this. The only explanation is they are "saving face."

178. pellenilsson - 9/7/1999 4:31:08 AM

There are two long articles about ET in today's Herald Tribune.

179. pellenilsson - 9/7/1999 4:38:23 AM

It's remarkable but I can get BBC news on RealVideo here. Terrible scenes from yesterday with people trying to take refuge in the UN compound. Absolutely shocking.

180. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/1999 7:03:12 AM

Here is an article I just came across which underlines my earler comments and shows why I am so baffled:

Habibie's Impotence Revealed

Here is a very sad story from Reuters on how pointlessly brutal the militias are. I just don't understand why this is happening.

East Timor in Bloody Frenzy

181. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/1999 7:21:15 AM

The following is the best article I've come across on East Timor. Harold Crouch has been observing Indonesia for over 45 years, and understands the nation extremely well. Excuse me for reproducing the entire thing here, but the link has expired (despite the fact that it is dated Sept. 6, 1999):

Saving face our saving grace
Harold Crouch

Harold Crouch is a senior fellow in the ResearchSchool of Pacific and Asian Studies at Australian National University.

From: Australian Financial Review 06 September 1999

Don't make it difficult for Jakarta to assert its control over the Indonesian military by adding to the troops' present sense of humiliation, advises Harold Crouch.

The overwhelming rejection of Indonesia's offer of autonomy marks the beginning of a particularly dangerous phase in East Timor's progress towards independence. Indonesia will continue to claim sovereignty over the territory until the People's Consultative Assembly (MPR) rescinds its 1976 decision incorporating East Timor.

But the Indonesian military and police, judging by their performance so far, cannot be relied upon to carry out their obligation to maintain order between now and the convening of the MPR session.

The MPR seems certain to endorse the result of the "popular consultation" in October or November. Although some complaints have been raised about UNAMET's alleged bias, both President Habibie and his main challenger for the presidency, Megawati Sukarnoputri, have committed themselves to respecting the outcome of the ballot. By the time the MPR meets, it is likely that the Indonesian public will be far more concerned with the presidential election than with the future of East Timor.

[continued]

182. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/1999 7:22:38 AM

The military's potential to mount a rearguard action in the MPR against separation has been greatly undermined by the massive vote for independence. Not only has the military been humiliated by its failure to put down resistance in a province whose population makes up less than half of 1 per cent of Indonesia's total population, but its constant refrain that support for independence was limited to a small minority of malcontents has been exposed as baseless propaganda.

For the many Indonesians who, until Saturday, had continued to believe that most East Timorese were happy to be part of Indonesia, the military's credibility must be severely damaged.

The problem is not with the MPR in Jakarta but with conditions in East Timor, where the military has obviously aided and encouraged the anti-independence militias. In the past, the Indonesian Government always justified Indonesia's intervention in East Timor as necessary to prevent civil war. It now seems that the military, especially those on the ground in East Timor, want to provoke fighting between East Timorese as a salve to their wounded pride.

On the other hand, it is likely that at least some senior officers in Jakarta are aware of the damage this does to Indonesia's international reputation, especially as Indonesia had regularly condemned Portugal for leaving East Timor in a state of turmoil in 1975.

[continued]

183. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/1999 7:25:45 AM

Growing disorder in East Timor has led to demands in Australia and elsewhere for an international peacekeeping force to replace Indonesian forces, which have so clearly failed to carry out their responsibilities. Advocates of foreign intervention, however, often seem unaware of the dangers of placing troops in a territory that Indonesia still regards as its own.

It needs to be remembered that Indonesia still has around 10,000 army troops and another 8,000 police in East Timor. Any unilateral move by Australia, for example, to send our two available brigades (around 3,000 troops) to East Timor could easily lead to clashes with the Indonesian forces. In that case the result would not be peacekeeping but armed conflict in which Australian and East Timorese casualties could be heavy.

This does not mean that Australia and the international community should simply stand by as East Timor descends into anarchy. But it does mean that Indonesian approval must be obtained before peacekeepers can be sent. We should by now have learnt that vociferous demands that ``insist" that Indonesia "must" accept foreign peacekeepers are likely to make it difficult for President Habibie to persuade the military leaders to accept foreign troops.

On the other hand, quiet behind-the-scenes offers to ``assist" Indonesia in carrying out its obligations can provide a face-saving means to achieve the same goal.

It is in the interests of both Australia and East Timor to avoid actions in the short term that could prejudice good relations with Indonesia in the long term. We will be doing the East Timorese no favour by adding to Indonesia's present sense of humiliation. As far as possible, Indonesia's co-operation should be sought during the transition to independence.

[continued]

184. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/1999 7:26:48 AM

Indonesia's present economic circumstances are such that it has a strong interest in improving its international image. Most Indonesians including those in the Government are far more interested in economic recovery than in retaining control of East Timor.

But the strong nationalist sentiments of most Indonesians make them particularly sensitive to what they see as foreign interference. International diplomacy should avoid public demands that make it difficult for the Government to assert its authority over the military.

[end]

185. JonesAtLaw - 9/7/1999 9:54:52 AM

Irv- how would it be possible to put effective pressure on the miltary in Indonesia? What could the UN or US do that would not increase the potential for civil disorder in the rest of Indonesia?

186. cmboyce - 9/7/1999 10:18:14 AM

I think Crouch has an excellent idea: get Jakarta to accept "assistance", offered (originally) back-channel and unaccompanied by "insistence" and "demands". The strong-arming of Cold War Days (and colonialist years) will only raise hackles, in general and in particular, ie, particularly here, in the case of a new, and populous, country.

187. cmboyce - 9/7/1999 10:20:00 AM

[Lower-case that "Days"; sounds like something at the State Fair, advertised on late-nite TV.]

188. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/7/1999 1:14:01 PM

Jones:
I really don't know what can be done. The military is on a classic power trip, and I don't think pressure from any side would make any difference. The best bet is to follow Crouch's advice and move quietly by working with the government and reasonable forces in the military. There are cooler heads in the military. I saw Major General Ajat Sudrajat, the former military attache in Washington, on TV tonight, and he was saying all the right things about disarming the militias, bringing peace to East Timor and then pulling out.

It's the old Suharto gang in the military which is behind all the problems, and the methods are vintage Suharto as well. General Feisal Tandjung, who declared Martial Law in East Timor today, is among the worst and most-tainted of all the old-school military. No one knows exactly where General Wiranto (the head of the Armed Forces) stands, though his continued inaction says a lot.

I've been saying all along (since Habibie's initiative was first announced in February) that Indonesia wanted to see things deteriorate in East Timor to prove they were needed. However, I never thought the military would so brazenly and openly support and encourage massive killngs and anarchy.

alistair (Msg 175):
...bear in mind that Indonesia is the world's fifth(?) largest country...

It's the fourth largest.

189. JonesAtLaw - 9/7/1999 4:30:12 PM

Irv, thanks for the response. I am afraid that most Americans don't know squat about Indonesia, myself sadly included. I would be happy if Clinton let it be known that he would consider intervention via the UN, through back channels, and quickly.

190. cmboyce - 9/7/1999 4:46:54 PM

I keep seeing mention of the fact that the UN never recognized the legitimacy of the '75 invasion in the first place, so isn't East Timor still a nation itself, in terms of UN membership, international relations, etc.? Is there, or was there ever, a government-in-exile?

Not that I can see acting on that much, in light of just the considerations made in the preceding posts--war with Indonesia is not much of an idea--but at some point, might not such cards be played, or at least bluffed with?

191. ChristinO - 9/7/1999 4:47:04 PM

Irv,

Is the military actually a separate political group? They don't answer to the government? Where do the soldiers come from?

I'm woefully undereducated about this, but how in the world does such a situation come about? It doesn't seem to make any kind of sense to have a military with power of its own to act against whomever it chooses for whatever political goals it desires. Was the system set up this way or did it just kind of evolve into it?

That would terrify me. I'd likely end up living in the PNW with spud's Patriots.

192. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 6:54:53 AM

cm:
Officially, according to the UN, East Timor is still a Portuguese colony. Indonesia moved in when Portugal abandoned East Timor in 1975, without even bothering to grant it independence. There has never been a government of any sort in East Timor, in-exile or not, and there is no government to put in place once independence from Indonesia is formally granted. The likely first president of an independent East Timor, Jose Alexandre "Xanana" Gusmão, was just released from prison in Jakarta yesterday, where he has been a political prisoner since 1994. But he fears for his life if he returns to East Timor, and is staying put in Jakarta for the time being. He favors a friendly relationship with Indonesia after independence, a position which is increasingly unlikely with each passing day.

The other major leader and voice of reason in East Timor, nobel-prize laureate Bishop Carlos Belo, has fled to Darwin, Australia, after his house in Dili was attacked and burned down.

193. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 6:55:28 AM

Christin:
It's a long story, but basically, the military in Indonesia answers to no one. The president is supposedly the Commander in Chief, and that worked fine during Suharto's 33 years in power (since Suharto was a General anyway), but the military has pointedly ignored Habibie (who has no military background), and has refused to take orders from him.

The military is not a separate political group. They are a part of the government. Many government ministers have always come from the military (and still do), and the military has a number of automatic seats in parliament (though this number was reduced significantly last year). No leader can make it in Indonesia without the military's backing, which is why the protests from both Habibie and Megawati have been very restrained.

Where do the soldiers come from?

The officers are chosen from the best and brightest of the nation. Major General Ajat Sudrajat, for example, has a Master's Degree from Harvard. Many of the top military officers were educated in the US. The common soldiers are recruited from all parts of the nation and all levels of society. Being accepted into the Armed Forces is the key to success in life for anyone.

...how in the world does such a situation come about? ... Was the system set up this way or did it just kind of evolve into it?

It evolved into it, largely because of Suharto. For an excellent recap of just how this happened, I highly recommend Adam Schwarz's book "A Nation in Waiting."

194. alistairconnor - 9/8/1999 7:07:24 AM

Irv, I realise that, as Crouch says, appeasement of the military is more likely to get results than feel-good table-thumping. But it doesn't make me any less angry and upset. On the contrary.

195. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 7:12:34 AM

alistair:
There's no reason not to feel angry. I'm feeling quite angry and frustrated myself. We all have good reason to be upset.

196. ranheim - 9/8/1999 8:33:56 AM

For what it is worth - last night all 30 minutes of the "Ted Koppel" program on ABC(?) were on E. Timor. He had two guests : the very liberal columnist Anthony Lewis + former Congressman Lee Hamilton. I was busy elsewhere and missed most of it. So I can't comment on the content of the 30 minutes.

197. stostosto - 9/8/1999 10:58:46 AM

Irv

Thank you for your East Timor coverage. I read it with interest.

It's a tragedy.

And it demonstrates the limitations of the Kosovo solution. The so-called international community is powerless when it comes to really big and important countries' misbehaviour towards its own people.

198. cmboyce - 9/8/1999 11:01:38 AM

What have the Portuguese been saying about all this, if anything?

199. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 11:57:26 AM

ranheim:
I've read what Anthony Lewis has to say about the situation in the New York Times (and you can read it, too, right here). Although he packages his outrage nicely, it doesn't appear that he has much of a grasp of the situation at all.

For the best Western commentary on the situation, nothing beats the Australian papers. For anyone interested, here are a few goos starting points:

The Sydney Morning Herald

The Age (Melbourne)

The Australian Financial Review

cm:
The Portuguese, who were one of the parties to the referendum agreement (along with the UN and Indonesia), and who have been very vocal over the years (although they were the ones responsible for the mess in the first place), have been rather silent over the past week, leaving the initiative to Australia.

200. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 12:01:19 PM

...a few good starting points...

201. cmboyce - 9/8/1999 12:43:32 PM

Particularly shocking is The Age's report on Wiranto's over-ruling the Cabinet on martial law. Might the formal installation of a military regime be in the offing, Irv? Would Megawati simply go along, perhaps be a figurehead? Has she any choice, do you suppose? And, indeed, what has she been saying/doing lately?

202. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 12:58:18 PM

cm:
The possibility of a military take-over is certainly a great fear here. I personally think it's unlikely, but there are those here who see things pointing in that direction. I can't imagine Mega agreeing to be a figurehead in such an arrangement.

Wiranto made it very clear that he is calling the shots. He forced Habibie to sign the martial law order for East Timor, and when Habibie balked about announcing it, Wiranto sent his own spokesman to make the official announcement on national TV while Wiranto paid a visit to habibie's home and set him straight on who was in charge.

Very chilling.

As for what Mega has been doing lately, she has publically complained about what is happening in East Timor, and has confirmed that she will abide by the results of the referendum if elected. (She had previously said that she felt East Timor should remain a part of Indonesia, so this is a significant change in her position.) She has avoided taking the military on directly, however.

203. Rivendell - 9/8/1999 1:25:03 PM

Irv,

I've read your reports and most of the links you have provided on E. Timor. These have been helpful, but they lead me to ask - you personally think a military take-over of Indonesia is unlikely - why?

All these reports seem to indicate that the non-military powers in Indonesia have, so far, proven to be particularly powerless against Wiranto's (and the army's) decisions regarding E. Timor. What stands in the way of the army doing what it wants anywhere else? I realize E. Timor is not the same as the rest of Indonesia, but the military seems to be awfully confident they can ignore all powers but their own.

204. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 1:46:31 PM

Riv:
I agree about the military's attitude right now. But I have hope that the fact that very few people in Indonesia accept what the military is doing (let alone the rest of the world) may mean something.

Already, there are daily anti-military student demonstrations in Jakarta. And the power of the students throughout Indonesian history has always been exceptional.

I honestly don't think the military would wage war against the citizens of Indonesia, and I think that's what it would take to effect a military take-over. But I may be wrong.

205. Rivendell - 9/8/1999 1:53:33 PM

Irv,

I hope you are not wrong. It just concerns me that there seems to be no one Wiranto is answerable to over E. Timor. And in one of your links above there is an article that refers to Wiranto's puppet master powers. Even if there is no outright military take-over it seems Wiranto might be in a position to exercise just as much power behind some other politician.

206. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 2:22:28 PM

Riv:
Those are all very real concerns.

207. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:06:04 PM

There's some very frightening news coming out of East Timor right now. Since these news reports are taken from the radio (due to news censorship under martial law, news reports on East Timor are getting harder to come by), and there are no internet links to these reports, I hope you'll excuse my posting them here, in full.

The first of these reports is of an interview of Justice Minister Muladi by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. I am also including the notes by "Joyo" who sends out daily updates of news on Indonesia to concerned parties all over the world. Nobody knows who Joyo really is, but he has been credited as having been a major force in the downfall of Suharto, when his e-mails were found posted all over Jakarta, informing people of events the press couldn't.

Please note how Muladi, normally a very well-spoken individual, limits himself to terse statements, as if he is afraid to say more. The "canned" nature of these statements reminds one strongly of the Suharto era, when everyone was supposed to be singing the same tune, in accordance with the wishes of the puppet master, and are strong evidence of a new puppet-master on the scene.

Without further ado... some particularly chilling reports...

208. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:11:49 PM

Joyo note: In the interview below one of Habibie's closest advisors claims that the reason for Habibie cancelling his attendance at APEC meeting has nothing whatsoever to do with East Timor! Reasons given: Habibie is too busy with preparations for parliament session in December, and he doesn't feel APEC is important enough to warrant his attendence. APEC meeting was going to be Habibie's big day in the international sun. It is widely known he has been keen to meet Clinton, to gain int'l legitimacystamp of approval, to bask in Clinton's/US aura -- now cancelled at last minute -- and having absolutely nothing to do with East Timor of course.

Australian Broadcasting Corp.
PM News
Wednesday, September 8, 1999 6:17 p.m.

Muladi speaks

MARK COLVIN: From the Indonesian Government, meanwhile, clear indications that it remains opposed to accepting a UN peace keeping force. The Indonesian Justice Minister, Muladi, says it's too early to say that Indonesia's imposition of martial law has failed and he's told us that more Indonesian troops are on their way to East Timor.

The Minister also insists that despite widespread reports of soldiers assisting the militia, such incidents were restricted to a few individuals. At the same time he confirmed to Tim Palmer that President Habibie won't go to the APEC Summit, but not because of concern over East Timor.

MINISTER MULADI: No. I think he has decided that he will not come to APEC Conference. It originates - there are so many problems with the preparations of Habibie before the MPR General Assembly in December.

TIM PALMER: So it's not because of the situation in East Timor?

MINISTER MULADI: No. No. Habibie consider that the less, the programme of APEC not so significant to be represented by a President.

[continued]

209. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:13:08 PM

TIM PALMER: Turning to the situation in East Timor, how ... what is your report on the situation?

MINISTER MULADI: The Minister of Defence this afternoon would like to give report to Mr Habibie, Mr Habibie, but in general I think to my impression, yeah, it's not getting better.

TIM PALMER: So, your impression is that the situation in East Timor has not improved since martial law was imposed?

MINISTER MULADI: He was just to wait there for a moment, I think, because we are going to send another battalion to East Timor of armed forced of Indonesia.

TIM PALMER: So when will that happen? When will that battalion go?

MINISTER MULADI: Yes, as soon as possible. Maybe now it's on the way.

TIM PALMER: So how many more men is that?

MINISTER MULADI: Yeah. We're may receive about five battalions from Java.

TIM PALMER: So you're preparing five battalions to go to East Timor?

MINISTER MULADI: Right.

TIM PALMER: Have you heard reports that TNI officers and police officers are involved in the violence?

MINISTER MULADI: Oh, no. No. I think just ... maybe individual not systematic as an organisation. Maybe. Maybe.

TIM PALMER: The United Nations Security Council representatives arrive today. What is the government's attitude towards getting a peace keeping force, an armed peace keeping force, into East Timor before the MPR approves the separation?

MINISTER MULADI: Yeah, actually it's on the agreement. Forces can only be sent to East Timor after the MPR general assembly in November. So, in the second phase before the general assembly I think the responsibility is fully on the forces of Indonesia and the government of Indonesia.

[continued]

210. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:13:58 PM

TIM PALMER: But would you not accept that now it's time for Indonesia to change the arrangement and to allow United Nations peace keepers in given that the army and police from Indonesia have so far failed to maintain this order?

MINISTER MULADI: I'm worried that the early sending of the peace keeping force can create a counter-productive situation.

TIM PALMER: In what sense?

MINISTER MULADI: Because they have to trust that Indonesian armed forces will overcome the problem in East Timor first.

TIM PALMER: You may have heard of the expression "the coalition of the willing", that is a suggestion that some countries may decide to send a peace keeping force to East Timor without agreement from Indonesia. What would happen then?

MINISTER MULADI: I do know that Indonesia is a member of the United Nations so in that regard they should regard and respect the Indonesian peace on the tripartite agreement in New York.

TIM PALMER: So, can I just ask once more - do you think the Government, the Indonesian Government, will accept a change in the arrangements and allow a United Nations peace keeping force to enter East Timor before the agreed time?

MINISTER MULADI: I think it's debatable. I think it should be discussed with the Indonesian Government.

MARK COLVIN: Indonesia's Justice Minister Muladi, speaking to Tim Palmer. And military experts tell us that number of TNI battalions would amount to three and a half thousand soldiers, so that's a further reinforcement of three and a half thousand, with an estimated 26 thousand police and soldiers there already.

Joyo: Live interview from Dili on National Public Radio in U.S. confirmed from several eyewitnesses that Indonesian militiary is openly working with militia to loot, burn, and kill. Observers have not seen one instance of Indon military intervening to stop violence, on the contrary - they are actively participating.

[end]

211. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:20:49 PM

Australian Broadcasting Corp Breaking News
Wed, Sep 8 1999 9:49 PM AEST

[includes a number of other news updates]

UN to withdraw from East Timor

The United Nations Mission to East Timor, UNAMET, has just announced it will begin an evacuation from the UN compound in Dili.

Heather Patterson, a freelance journalist still in Dili, says the evacuation will begin tomorrow at 10am local time [11am AEST].

The 167 local UN staff and their families will be a part of the evacuation along with the 206 international staff and the 25 journalists staying at the UNAMET compound.

The negotiations resulting in this decision have been described as being at the "highest level".

Journalists at the compound have been told that no cameras are to be shown in the transport because the Indonesian government does not want cameras to be seen.

Over 1,000 East Timorese have sought shelter in the complex.

In an effort to drive them out, troops and militiamen cut the compound's water and power supply.

They have also prevented UN staffers from bringing in badly needed food and medical supplies.

Supplies

Earlier, Ms Patterson, says UNAMET's position in Dili is under threat following an attack on its main food warehouse.

"The meetings are going on because the United Nations thought it could survive for quite some time on the stock it had in that warehouse but right now as we speak, that warehouse is going up in smoke," she said.

"They believe it has been looted; they have no hope for any of the supplies there."

Meanwhile, the United Nations has been stopped from getting to food supplies in Dili, despite being escorted by Indonesian soldiers.

A small group of UN staff was taken by army truck to see a limited area of Dili, finding 40 UN vehicles destroyed.

[continued]

212. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:21:41 PM

Out of their compound for the first time in days, the UN says militias are looting and roaming the streets armed with guns.

Mr Wimhurst says the UN compound has enough supplies but he will not say for how long they can last.

End to terror

Earlier, pro-Jakarta militia groups announced an end to their campaign of terror and violence.

At Kupang, in West Timor, one of the militias' political chiefs has claimed an agreement was reached with Indonesia's regional head of the armed forces.

Political chief Brasilio Araujo has announced militia forces have agreed to end the violence in East Timor.

He says the decision was taken after a meeting was held with militia leaders and the Indonesian military in the border town of Atambua.

He has defended the militias' campaign against pro-independence supporters as a campaign of frustration over UNAMET's bias in supervising the ballot.

The head of Indonesia's regional military command, Major Adam Damiri, says firm action will be taken against the militias if they fail to comply with martial law.

Dili destroyed

Even if the violence ends now, eyewitnesses have reported the centre of the East Timorese capital, Dili, has been destroyed.

Six United Nations employees ventured out of the UN compound earlier today in trucks escorted by soldiers, to see what sort of damage had been inflicted around the town.

Freelance journalist John Martinkus, who is sheltering inside the UN compound, describes what was seen.

"The entire centre of town is totally destroyed, all the shops are gone, all burnt down, basically soldiers on the street, guns on every corner, nobody's doing anything to stop the looting," he said.

"I spoke to a security official who came in last night with the convoy from Baucau.

[continued]

213. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:22:32 PM

"He described the situation to me as being totally devoid of law and order, with TNI Indonesian police and militias all engaged in looting of all the main public buildings in town.

"Basically, the entire town has been trashed and the military is actively participating in it."

Petition

There are reports from West Timor that Indonesian Government officials are forcing pro-independence East Timorese refugees to sign petitions supporting integration with Indonesia.

Antonio Pinto from the Timorese Democratic Union in Queensland says he received a phone call earlier today from contacts in West Timor.

He says it appears Government officials are organising the petitions.

"At the moment, they are telling us that the Indonesians - the Indonesian Government in Atangua - are forcing the pro-independence people in West Timor to sign a petition that they want to have integration with Indonesia," he said.

Deportation

The reports came as the chief spokesman for UNAMET, David Wimhurst, said forced deportations were continuing from East to West Timor.

UNAMET reconaissance patrols are trying to work out the extent of the deportations and are deciding whether to make their way to the border to investigate reports of deaths and violence.

Mr Wimhurst says they will investigate forced deportations.

"It's in the tens of thousands, obviously they are being trucked out, there's forced deportation of refugees out of East Timor and into West Timor and this has been going on since the beginning of the week, but I can't give you figures," he said.

As the deportations continued, an Indonesian Navy ship carrying about 2,000 East Timorese arrived in the West Timor port city of Kupang, with some refugees saying they had been forcibly removed.

[continued]

214. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:23:08 PM

The refugees, mainly women and children who had been packed on the open decks of the ship, were herded into army trucks for transport to refugee camps.

One woman says the Red and White Iron militia had come to a church in Dili and forced them at gunpoint to the ship.

West Timor is rapidly becoming flooded with East Timorese, fleeing or forced out because of the militia violence.

Australia today announced it was withdrawing all of its consulate staff from East Timor, closing its honorary consulate in West Timor and calling for all Australians to move out of the territory.

Despite the order for Australians and consular staff to evacuate, UNAMET says its 200 staff, including civilian police, will remain in Dili.

Emergency meeting

Federal Cabinet held an emergency meeting in Canberra to discuss the worsening crisis.

The Government says martial law has failed.

Foreign Minister Alexander Downer says 24 hours after Indonesia declared martial law in East Timor, the situation is worse.

Militia groups still roam the streets and 5,000 people are now in the United Nations compound in Dili.

Mr Downer says legally, there could be grounds to justify a peacekeeping force entering East Timor without Indonesia's consent, but with 26,000 Indonesian troops in the province it would amount to war.

"The Indonesians have made it perfectly clear they'd militarily resist that," he said

Mr Downer is now heading for Auckland for talks tonight and tomorrow with foreign ministers from the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) nations.

He says the United States is giving stronger signs it would support a peacekeeping force but wants to hear first from the United Nations Security Council mission to Jakarta.

[continued]

215. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:23:33 PM

The Prime Minister says he has spoken twice today to the United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan.

After the Cabinet meeting, Mr Howard said: "Australia's position remains the same".

"We believe that unless the security situation in East Timor is restored to a proper level, and there is precious little evidence to us of that occurring, then international pressure should be applied to the Indonesian Government to allow the introduction of a peacekeeping force."

[end]

216. Rivendell - 9/8/1999 3:36:01 PM

Irv,

The Australian piece of this is still missing for me. Is Australia worried that this Indonesian bullying poses a security threat to them? Or are they opposed to it on principle? Or is it just too close for comfort?

217. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 3:43:20 PM

Riv:
All of those reasons, plus pressure from the sizeable Timorese refugee community in Australia.

218. Rivendell - 9/8/1999 3:44:36 PM

Irv,

That extra reason puts it into better perspective. Thanks.

219. ranheim - 9/8/1999 6:08:52 PM

I don't consider National Public Radio a very good source of information in a fluid situation as in E. Timor. But, this afternoon they announced that unnamed "spokesmen" in Washington, D.C. suggested that the Australians would be the lead in a hostile introduction of troops into E. Timor.

One would hope that this "spokesman" was an employee of NPR; not the USGovernment.

Damn! This is slow today. But, I suspect that the gremlins are local. I could not get into area code 212 (I have a son in Manhattan) all day.

For those of you closer to the situation : can you imagine an Australian Force entering E. Timor without invitation? I find this very hard to believe but I am 8 - 9,000 miles away.

220. robertjayb - 9/8/1999 6:43:34 PM

ranheim,

Here is some opinion on Aussie intervention from The Sydney Morning Herald:

Bombing Jakarta/Declaring War on Sanity

221. ranheim - 9/8/1999 6:59:04 PM

We don't have many of celtic background in Louisiana.
Its been years since I have seen a name like Padraic P. McGuinness.
Wonderful!

222. alistairconnor - 9/8/1999 7:46:03 PM

RobertJ:

That editorial piece is completely loony, much what one would expect from the Australian conservative establishment. This little gem :

"While the Indonesian troops and the Timorese militia are engaged in murderous activities, so, too, from the beginning, have the guerillas on the other side. Fretilin is a party of murderers, and as such could hardly be other than feared by those who have been opposed to it for so long."

This raises a couple of interesting questions.

• The figure of 200 000 dead in the last twenty-four years is often quoted, and I confess I had always assumed that this figure consisted almost exclusively of East Timorese killed by the Indonesian occupying forces. Perhaps I am wrong?
  
• I believe that the Fretilin guerillas were confined by the referendum accords to designated areas, with UN verification. What are they doing now? Just sitting around watching their people being massacred? Presumably, the Indonesian army would love to see them go into action, to justify their terror campaign retrospectively.
  

223. robertjayb - 9/8/1999 8:02:01 PM

Thanks, alistair.

I am completely willing to accept your wisdom on the matter. I linked the article as the only example I've seen of commentary on
direct Australian intervention.

Here, I am disappointed, again, on the Clinton administration's failure to speak more aggressively about the situation in East Timor.
But I do think they will do something. It may be that behind-the-scenes jawboning on financial matters will be as effective as military blustering.

224. ProfEmeritus - 9/8/1999 8:42:44 PM

There was an announcement on NPR that Habibie has acceded to the high level UN group's request that UN peacekeepers be allowed into East Timor. I have heard nothing further. That announcement was about an hour and a half ago. As Ranheim says, NPR may not be the best listening post on developments 12,000 miles from their studios.

225. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 8:58:19 PM

ProfE:
Nothing about it yet on TV or newspapers here. Even if Habibie agrees, it means little unless the military also agrees. Habibie himself is desperate to keep good international relations, keep the international flow of money coming in, and salvage the Timor referendum, which, after all, was his initiative (and one of the few truly good things he's done).

The military, obviously, doesn't care about any of these factors.

An hour and a half before your post would be around 6:00 AM Jakarta time, an unlikely time for an important decision.

alistair:
That article does indeed include some very warped perceptions, and shows a very muddled understanding of the current mess and its historical underpinnings. But its central theme, the wrong-headedness of an Australian attack on East Timor, is dead on.

226. DanDillon - 9/8/1999 9:21:41 PM

Would someone kindly explain why an intervention by the Austrailians of all people? Is this a purely geographical issue? Do the Aussies have vested political or financial interests in E. Timor? And beyond that, why haven't the Portuguese been more vocal up to this point? Sure, they're poor and mostly just fish [a verb, not a predicate nominative], but don't they have anything at stake here, even if merely their prideful integrity?

227. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 9:26:12 PM

Dan:
I think Riv succinctly covered the Australian reasons above, along with the one point I added.

As for the Portuguese, the fact that they abandoned East Timor without so much as a farewell speech 24 years ago shows how much they care. They were good about bellyaching about the situation for many years, but I don't think they would actually commit to anything which might cost effort, money or lives.

228. DanDillon - 9/8/1999 9:36:49 PM

Irv,
I had missed Riv's 216 and your 217. Thanks. And the Portuguese explanantion makes sense as well. Is the E. Tomirese refugee population in Austrailia looked down upon by the ruling classes there? Is it something akin to N. Africans in France? Just asking to gain some perspective.

229. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/8/1999 9:40:20 PM

Dan:
I don't think so. In fact, they are warmly accepted as the Aussies' pet oppressed peoples. The community is led there by Timor-exile and Nobel Laureate Jose Ramos-Horta, and has always been quite vocal.

230. Thoughtful - 9/8/1999 9:46:54 PM

Achh. What nasty business. An Asian Yugoslavia in the making?

231. ProfEmeritus - 9/8/1999 10:34:35 PM

Irv

Horta was on the Jim Lehrer hour this evening for a long interview. He didn't add much to what we already know. He did say that in his view Habibie has no power at all, but he is well-intentioned. He was very eloquent in his plea for international diplomatic pressure, including the foreign assiatance tools. He said he was warmly received at the World Bank today, but he wouldn't go beyond that. He hopes to meet US political figures soon. When asked why he hadn't yet seen them he simply said that there hadn't been time. He also said that East Timor is the worst genocide since the Nazis. Ne put the number of victims at 250 thousand.

232. alistairconnor - 9/8/1999 11:44:55 PM

I once (this would be about 17 years ago)had the privilege of dining with an Australian senator who had fought in World War 2 against the Japanese in Timor. He was a most vociferous supporter of the East Timorese struggle for independence, and was at loggerheads with his government's diplomatically accomodating stance with respect to Indonesia.

Remember that in WWII Australia was fighting for survival against invaders from Asia, who nearly got as far as the mainland. I think they have every right to be both outraged at the current situation, and very wary about getting into conflict with Indonesia.

233. pellenilsson - 9/9/1999 3:21:41 AM

Irv

Thanks to you this is the best place to keep track of the tragic events in East Timor.

234. alistairconnor - 9/9/1999 5:22:03 AM

I just got this e-mail from my brother who lives in Canberra:

"We are totally slutted about Timor too. At least the Aussie journos are doing a good