I'm just back from an enjoyable evening spent with our resident Kiwi-Frenchman and family.
10175. theDiva - 4/15/2000 12:17:53 PM
well, look at that Connor, will you? How is everyone, Irv? Tell all! Anything as exciting as the time you hurled Socko onto a moving train?
10176. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/15/2000 12:20:36 PM
No exciting stories yet, Diva, but the Connor clan was rather travel-weary. I'm sure some will develop as the week rolls on.
10177. PelleNilsson - 4/15/2000 4:52:59 PM
Funny. Alistair looks like his posts. Cool but intense, shall we say?
10178. stostosto - 4/15/2000 5:31:04 PM
Alistair looks smaller than I imagined. And much more French than I'd thought possible.
---
It seems things have been running pretty wild here (and at the New Thread Features thread) the last couple of days. I am sorry I haven't been able to be around much. And then again. To be honest, I am not sure I would have been all that eager to weigh in.
The thing is - and this may sound really corny, but it's actually true - I think all the individuals on all sides in that catfight are formidable people and I'd be loath to end up having to miss any one of them as a participant here over disagreements, real or perceived, topical, hosting policy-wise or personal. But the waves went so high it veered towards a show-down at times. A "This town ain't big enough for the two of us" kind of thing.
Well, I think it is plenty big for the - all told fairly limited - number of international Moties here, and then, hopefully, some. And I tend to think we should strive to make it bigger rather than smaller.
10179. Seguine - 4/15/2000 5:41:10 PM
"And much more French than I'd thought possible."
Boy, no kidding.
I had imagined him being sort of pale and bearded and vaguely Scottish with messy reddish-brown hair.
10180. stostosto - 4/15/2000 5:45:36 PM
He looks like the son of a Marseilleisian gangster who is beginning to have serious moral doubts about his father.
10181. PelleNilsson - 4/15/2000 6:31:35 PM
When I saw that pic of Alistair, some subconscious process started to ask "what actor does he remind me of?" Just now the gears clicked in: 
What do you say?
10182. PelleNilsson - 4/16/2000 3:36:15 PM
sto
Utter crap from the IHT
The last paragraphs:
The biggest, yet least voiced, anxiety about the Oresund link is that it will oblige Danes and Swedes to mix more closely with one another and bury age-old rivalries.
''The truth is, it isn't natural for a Dane to be nice to a Swede,'' said Mr. Moller, a Swede living in Copenhagen.
Or maybe it's true?
10183. stostosto - 4/16/2000 5:50:16 PM
These days I wonder if it's natural for Danes to be nice to anyone...
Wdo tend to behave idiotic towards Swedes in our self-perceived humorous way. I know several Swedes here in Copenhagen who have long since tired of hearing reruns of the same few 'witty' remarks.
But apart from that you're right. It's crap; especially the statement about "the biggest, yet least voiced anxiety". Actually I haven't detected any anxiety whatsoever over the bridge but lots of anticipation. But maybe that's just me.
10184. MrSocko - 4/16/2000 11:27:57 PM
I don't see how Connor can "look" French since to the best of my knowledge he isn't French. The two of us had lunch in Auckland in late 1998 (he paid, bless him) and I was struck by how Kiwi he is, except perhaps when it came to political issues. He seemed very involved when it came to left-wing politics; I, of course, largely live by a to-each-his-own philosophy. Still, I found it an enjoyable meeting.
10185. Jürgen Huber - 4/17/2000 3:38:42 AM
"He looks like the son of a Marseilleisian gangster who is beginning to
have serious moral doubts about his father."
You're a hoot, stostosto. Get it off your chest quickly before he comes back to his senses from his travel fatigue.
10186. stostosto - 4/17/2000 7:59:52 AM
MrSocko
Alistair is French - now. He announced his new citizenship a few weeks ago. (He may have retained his Kiwi one, I don't know whether that's an option at all).
Anyway, just because you don't happen to be French doesn't mean you can't look like one. Or vice versa. As I am sure you will realise once you have given it some thought.
In this country we had a foreign minister for 10½ years who looked indistinguishably like a Romanian chicken thief. 
UFFE ELLEMANN-JENSEN
Uffe Ellemann-Jensen, born 1941. Former National chairman of Venstre, Liberal Party of Denmark and vice-president of European Liberal Party. Former Minister for Foreign Affairs (1982-93).
And yet, he isn't French...
10187. PelleNilsson - 4/17/2000 8:01:20 AM
sto has not observed Queen Margarethe's 60th birthday last Saturday. So I do it for him.
 |  |
From left two unknowns, Crown Princess Victoria, Queen Silvia and King Gustav. 10188. stostosto - 4/17/2000 8:16:24 AM
Thank you Pelle. It was yesterday, in fact(Sunday). Born April 16th 1940, exactly one week into the German occupation, her arrival was greeted as a spot of light in that dark time - or so the standard commentary goes.
She is immensely popular in this Lilliput kingdom, a fact that manifested itself by both our national TV stations transmitting non-stop from the same royal events for the whole weekend. ("What's on TV" "The Queen's birthday" "What's on the other channel?" "The Queen's birthday".(Yes, we do get a lot of foreign channels, plus some quasi-national and local crap ones, but we never watch those - especially not the foreign ones).
I saw the Swedish King's speech to her last night. It was quite amusing, really. He got the biggest laugh of the evening when he despondently said to her: "But, dear cousin [they are cousins]. When are you going to start giving up smoking?!"
She notoriously smokes like a chimney. And laughs it.
10189. PelleNilsson - 4/17/2000 8:34:45 AM
 The International Thread |
10190. stostosto - 4/17/2000 8:49:37 AM
...and then some!
10191. stostosto - 4/17/2000 8:50:34 AM
Pelle 'PP' Nilsson.
10192. stostosto - 4/17/2000 10:07:34 AM
Here is one for Rustler:
The end of a Jewish dream
The Financial Times reports from Israel, a special country debating whether to become a normal one - and how.
Excerpts:
"I often wonder if Israel will make it to its 75th birthday," says Kaufmann, a liberal conservative and committed Zionist who recalls the anti-Semitism of America's southern states where she grew up.
"As Jews living here, we are tearing ourselves apart. As peace negotiators, we will probably give away too much land to the Arabs. I've no idea what is going to happen to us. One thing is certain: the Zionist dream - the reason I came here in the first place to share in it - is over."
"Israel is in a state of conflict with itself as it tries to establish where it is going," said Kremnitzer [a law professor; sto]. "What is at stake is whether we want to be a society in which one part of the population, the Jewish majority, uses the Arab minority to its advantage. Or do we want to be a society that believes in an inclusive democracy, an inclusive citizenship? That is the question."
This sense of change, the sense that Israel is shifting from being a country under siege to becoming a normal country, is nowhere as strong as it is in the army. The days when it was the symbol of unity are over, said one senior officer. "An entirely new generation sees things differently. They want to live. They don't want wars. They don't want to fight. And they certainly don't want to die in combat."
The careers officer struggled to explain the radical shift in attitudes. "I suppose it's because society is becoming wealthier, becoming more individualistic, becoming more normal. In that sense, Zionism is over. We have built our state. The kids today just want peace. They don't want to fight for it."
10193. stostosto - 4/17/2000 10:15:40 AM
Actually, I wonder if one subtracts the universal lamenting of the older generation over the younger one's soft complacency, what is left that is truly new?
Perhaps the ruling of the Israeli high court against the Jewish Agency - a mainstay of Zionism - which refused to sell land to an Arab couple.
"The Qa'dans, characteristic of a younger generation of Arabs no longer prepared to accept Israel's "exclusive democracy", went to the courts. They questioned why Arab citizens, who comprise 20 per cent of the population, were prevented from buying land from the Jewish Agency, the Israel Lands Authority or the Jewish National Fund. Together, these organisations manage all state land -which amounts to 93 per cent of all Israel's land.
After five years of deliberations, the Supreme Court last month stunned the public with its ruling. It said the government had broken a law by allocating state-owned land to the Jewish Agency - the Zionist organisation charged with encouraging Jewish immigration to Israel - for the construction of a community that barred Arabs from building homes there. "
The article talks about extensive discrimination against the Arab minority in Israel. Something which, presumably, would have to go if Israel is to be normalised.
Rustler - where are you?
10194. PelleNilsson - 4/17/2000 12:55:18 PM
I just mailed Rustler and asked him to do me the big favour of coming back. We can only hope.
10195. Seguine - 4/17/2000 1:09:31 PM
"And yet, he isn't French..." (LOL)
Yes, but is he having moral doubts about his father?
The FT must be having a subscription drive because we've been receiving it free on the front stoop for the past week or so. So I saw that article about Israel. It sort of struck me as old news.
If one reads anything coming out of Israel, one knows this question (Jewish state vs. non-discriminatory democracy?) has been debated for a long time, and pretty hotly over at least the last ten years. It's also tied up tightly with the question of who qualifies as a Jew.
I hope Pike will come back and offer his take. (I will still refuse, however, to debate with him on the topic Why Feminism Is Vile.)
10196. stostosto - 4/17/2000 1:17:00 PM
Meanwhile we could talk about Italy. The parties of the governing coalition were hit by what some commentators call an electoral disaster yesterday in regional elections. In the North a new-formed alliance between Berlusconi's Forza Italia and the Lega Nord (which ostesibly renounced its previous demands of a split-up of the country) trounced the center-left parties which make up the present government.
Head of gov., Massimo d'Alema, is expected to resign, not because he is under immediate parliamantarian pressure to do so, but because it's seen as the only way he can avert further disaster in the next general election.
And he can do so in the comforting knowledge that his 16 months old government has already lasted 33% longer than the average post-war Italian government...
If anyone cares for an Italian commentary:
D'Alema in barca colpito e affondato
("D'Alema's boat is hit and sinking" - or something like that).
10197. stostosto - 4/17/2000 1:35:45 PM
Rustler also owes us all some heavy and heartfelt gloating over the Irving vs. Ipstadt verdict.
10198. stostosto - 4/17/2000 2:04:57 PM
Reuter's on the Italian elections:
Italy PM Looks Set to Offer Resignation
Perhaps more interesting than the (only too) possible resignation of an Italian government is this bit:
"Some members of the ruling coalition parties are opposed to a raft of referendums due to take place on May 21, in particular a move to scrap proportional representation in the electoral system backed by D'Alema. "
Changing Italy's electoral system to a full "First-past-the-post" one (instead of the present mix of PR and FPTP) should make for a profound change. Or, perhaps not. The Italians seem to exhibit a strange resistance to behavioral change no matter the institutional setup...
According to the Economist there are fairly persistent rumours that former PM Romano Prodi is contemplating a come-back to Italian politics from his present position as chairman of the European Commission where he is said to be frustrated by his narrow room of manoeuver. Prodi of course firmly denies.
But he may be back as early as June, the likely date for an early general election, should the President decide to call one.
10199. stostosto - 4/17/2000 4:10:52 PM
Reuter's on the Italian elections:
Italy PM Looks Set to Offer Resignation
Perhaps more interesting than the (only too) possible resignation of an Italian government is this bit:
"Some members of the ruling coalition parties are opposed to a raft of referendums due to take place on May 21, in particular a move to scrap proportional representation in the electoral system backed by D'Alema. "
Changing Italy's electoral system to a full "First-past-the-post" one (instead of the present mix of PR and FPTP) should make for a profound change. Or, perhaps not. The Italians seem to exhibit a strange resistance to behavioral change no matter the institutional setup...
According to the Economist there are fairly persistent rumours that former PM Romano Prodi is contemplating a come-back to Italian politics from his present position as chairman of the European Commission where he is said to be frustrated by his narrow room of manoeuver. Prodi of course firmly denies.
But he may be back as early as June, the likely date for an early general election, should the President decide to call one.
10200. stostosto - 4/17/2000 4:57:48 PM
Way back, I promised some substantiation of my claim that Danish perceptions of Germans overwhelmingly consists of stereotype rather than anything the Germans actually do or anything that actually goes on in that big neighbour country of ours. Also in support of my assertion that Germany is what I call an undernoticed country. I've dug out a Danish newspaper article to that effect.
Headline: "The eternal villain". Yes, Huber, that's you, you crooked German.
Roy Langer a German (from the East) living in Denmark, employed at the Copenhagen School of Business, has studied Danish media coverage of Germany.
(oops - gotta run... more to follow).
10201. stostosto - 4/17/2000 6:21:52 PM
Langer's analysis (which concerns the year of 1996 and is his Ph.D-thesis in the field of communication and cultural analysis) shows that reporting on sports and cars are the most frequent stories on Germany. It's not stories from people who follow developments on a daily basis like foregin affairs correspondents and political commentators. Sports stars like Steffi Graf and Boris Becker are mentioned most frequently while Helmut Kohl has to make do with a ranking as sixth. The most recurrent themes in the coverage is WWII and the German reunification. One big concern that year was the preservation of a special rule, a dispensation from general EU law, that allows Denmark to prohibit foreigners to buy Danish summer cabins. "Foreigners" in this case is almost identical to "Germans". Examples of headlines on this issueare: "German invasion"; "The Yellow Menace" [referring to the yellow raincoats that Germans are proverbially fond of - and have good use for in our summer climate]; "The Germans are coming"; and "Be prepared to defend". One TV journalist asked another talking head: "Is this, in your view, the 9th of April?", [referring to the date when Denmark was attacked and occupied in 1940]. One editorial quotes Nietzsce as saying that "love of one's neighbour is the desire for new property" and goes on to say: "And we five million Danes live on top of a wealthy German nation which soon will encompass 100 millioin people. These facts compel us to keep close watch on property relations in the border area".
(more...)
10202. stostosto - 4/17/2000 6:22:58 PM
(cont.)
Commentary on the unification was duly benign yet underlying preconceptions were often surfacing. "No neighbour country can in all decency object to a big, peaceful and democratic Germany, not officially at any rate. Legitimate discomfort only arises if a big, united Germany emerges which demands revision of borders and territorial extension - Lebensraum". This statement was made in 1990 by a then leading social democratic opposition politician named Ms. Ritt Bjerregaard. She was later to be appointed commissioner for the environment in the EU commission. Now she is back and has recently been made minister for food (agriculture and fishery).
Langer, the German scholar, is obviously taken aback by the use of the term ‘Lebensraum' which he says is a ‘non-word' in Germany. (He is barely able to breathe the word, according to the article).
Completing the stereotype is the image of German ‘solidity', effeciency, workaholism, conservatism. A country clinging to an old industrial age type of culture. No points for any German software design, or sophisticated fashion, or design. Germans are allowed to be good at big, efficient technical machines, like cars and machine tools. In football, the German national team is often referred to as "the German football machine". (At this point, the female journalist injects a remark that she bought a pair of fancy elegant sandal which, upon the subsequent discovery of them being German-made, she suddenly found to be somewhat clumsy). According to Langer the image of the hard-working Germans is not true at all, by the way. (He points to statistics showing the Germans top the league in absenteeism due to unspecified, i.e. dubious, sickness).
(more...)
10203. stostosto - 4/17/2000 6:24:18 PM
Langer points to the blatant absence of reporting on German youth and sub-cultures, everyday culture, modern culture, education, R&D, and the integration of foreigners. When foreigners in Germany are reported on, it's not the German experience of integrating many, many more immigrants than what is the case in Denmark - even relatively speaking. It's focused on Neo-Nazi hatemongering and the like. (In a country, it is added, which harbours a successful xenophobic which routinely issues statements that would be at odds with the German constitution).
Langer: "I think it's remarkable that there is no feeling of kinship at all with one of the closest neighbours".
He notes that he hasn't studied the coverage of other countries and thinks it likely that e.g. the coverage of France would be equally burdened with simplistic stereotyping. He also doesn't believe that stereotyping should be somehow outlawed. He just wants more variations to the picture. "So that Frankfurt am Main is not only known for its skyscraper banks but also for its 30% foreigners; and that the well-established image of Mercedes and Miele be supplemented by the annual Berliner Love Parade."
(I don't really know about that last bit - I mean, there is one off-shoot to the stereotype of hardworking, efficient, unberably clean-cut Germans: The idea of a disturbing kinkiness... You know the old Dire Straits song Les Boys?)
(My source for the article on Langer's Ph.D-thesis: Weekend-avisen, March 24th 2000).
(end).
10204. stostosto - 4/17/2000 6:30:39 PM
Oops:
(In a country, it is added, which harbours a successful xenophobic party which routinely issues statements that would be at odds with the German constitution).
10205. Jürgen Huber - 4/18/2000 4:34:46 AM
"Actually, I wonder if one subtracts the universal lamenting of the older
generation over the younger one's soft complacency, what is left that
is truly new? " (on the FT article on Israel)
Same thought here. Not much, i think.
"Headline: "The eternal villain". Yes, Huber, that's you, you crooked
German"
NOW i'm interested.
"The
Yellow Menace" [referring to the yellow raincoats that Germans are
proverbially fond of - "
That's hilarious- and i never heard of it! Probably that it's been a quarter of a century ago that i spent my holidays in one of these countless holidays houses along the shore near Esbjerg.
I faintly remember an article in the Economist one or two years ago on prejudices and stereotypes about the Germans in the UK. I think it had to do with one of those regular brouhahas in the Yellow Press à la "The Huns are coming" (lately there's a lot of justified outrage regarding the way BMW treats newly-bought Rover, now that will serve to preserve some prejudices for a few more years). Basically the Economist denied that the Brits had a more negative attitude towards the Germans than the Germans have towards the Brits. But the way the article presented some statistics i got the feeling that some stereotypes are alive and kicking.
Somebody upthread wrote that the similarity and closeness of Germany and Denmark as well as the size of Denmark does a lot to explain why Germany is "undernoticed" and not in very high regard there. I agree. And even if we now pride ourselves to have become more peaceful and less militaristic (after how many wars?) it is still easy to see why Germany by its mere size and economic power remains a potential threat.
It scares quite a few Germans too, you know.
10206. Jürgen Huber - 4/18/2000 4:35:48 AM
'The Yellow Menace'. ROFL, that is such a wonderful and appropriate image. In German those raincoats are jokingly called "Friesennerze" (Nerz = mink) and i think i last owned one during these holidays in Denmark!
10207. stostosto - 4/18/2000 4:52:45 AM
He he. Huber: Did you also sport a navy blue sailor's cap?
10208. Jürgen Huber - 4/18/2000 6:24:22 AM
Nope. Never. I swear.
(Don't expect me normally to immediately check back in for responses. I'm mostly a once-a-day forum guy.)
Buy. See you tomorrow, i hope.
10209. marjoribanks - 4/18/2000 8:38:06 AM
Hello fellows,
nice to see the place hopping, and our favorite Swede still taking his lumps. Don't have anything much to say, since i've been in India for two weeks - but someone may want to find a Stern cover article from a couple of weeks ago highlighting a very interesting quasi-xenophpobic anti-Indian "movement" in germany because someone suggested that the country import Indian computer programmers. Some German politician made the statement -"Children, not Indians" which has pissed off my countrymen no end.
see you all later.
10210. marjoribanks - 4/18/2000 8:45:57 AM
Oh, here's an article about the flap.
10211. stostosto - 4/18/2000 8:50:06 AM
Yes, Marj, the slogan's very catchy in German:
Kinder statt Inder!
But what do you mean by this:
"Don't have anything much to say, since i've been in India for two weeks "
???
I think it interesting no end that that brain-dead German politicking is pissing off Indians no end. Because I haven't heard a thing about Indian reactions.
---
Incidentally, the corollary to your statement seems to be that I have lots to say since I've been sitting here on my ass for those same two weeks. (Which is true, actually, but still).
10212. marjoribanks - 4/18/2000 8:56:47 AM
Well, sto, the only news of interest to me and every other indian at the moment is the stunning revelation that the South African cricket captain has admitted fixing matches featuring his country. The can of worms this has opened up is ataggering, it appears that virtually every cricket side has been involved. Since cricket is more than pastime - it's religion - in the subcontinent, the news has been absolutely devastating.
10213. marjoribanks - 4/18/2000 8:59:05 AM
10214. ScottLoar - 4/18/2000 9:06:29 AM
A strange current to prod Banks from his shell I think.
10215. ScottLoar - 4/18/2000 9:08:04 AM
I mean, how shall we revile the South Africans? Like the German footballers who cheat and when found out admit it is but part of the game, or like the Italians who are outraged at being discovered?
10216. RustlerPike - 4/18/2000 12:08:36 PM
Did you guys notice that the ruling re: Arabs buying land in Jewish settlements was in regard to my home village of Katzir? We are quite in the center of things here. Yours truly was even interviewed on the subject by Dutch Channel 2 recently!
10217. PelleNilsson - 4/18/2000 2:59:09 PM
Good to see you Rustler!
I think sto referred to this buying of land earlier but I didn't understand the issue. Can you explain in a few words?
10218. Seguine - 4/18/2000 3:40:17 PM
"Did you guys notice that the ruling re: Arabs buying land in Jewish settlements was in regard to my home village of Katzir?"
I did! Was hoping you'd show up and tell us what the local reaction was like.
10219. stostosto - 4/18/2000 4:33:02 PM
I knew it! The Dutch get all the best TV.
Rustler da hustler: Welcome back!
10220. uzmakk - 4/18/2000 5:18:45 PM
I always tune in when Pike shows up.
10221. uzmakk - 4/18/2000 5:31:03 PM
i.e. I always pay attention when Pike posts.
10222. arkymalarky - 4/18/2000 5:57:40 PM
Hey RP!
My Russian student told a Stalin joke today. Excuse if you internationals have already heard it.
Stalin was speaking to a large number of his staff, and all were sitting in perfect, tense silence, when suddenly someone sneezed.
Stalin stopped immediately and demanded to know who did it. No one responded, so he had the first row of people removed and shot. He asked again and still no one responded, so he had the second row taken out and shot. When he asked the third row, a man said, "I'm sorry, I'm the one who sneezed," to which Stalin replied "Bless you," and then continued with the meeting.
10223. stostosto - 4/18/2000 6:12:15 PM
arky
Much as I appreciate politeness, you don't have to apologise in advance when telling a joke. Not even here in the eurocentricelitist thread.
And no I hadn't heard it before. It's the kind of joke that would probably have earned one a (shortened) lifetime in the Gulag in Stalin's days, I suppose.
Does your Russian student also tell jokes of Yeltsin and Putin?
10224. arkymalarky - 4/18/2000 7:33:37 PM
Thanks Sto. I just don't want to seem too far out of the International loop. That joke might be to the folks of this thread what all the Clinton jokes are to me (not that it bothers me to hear them over and over).
She doesn't have any jokes about either of them, but she has no fondness for Yeltzin. She seems to like Putin, but I haven't gotten a chance to discuss with her why.
10225. Jürgen Huber - 4/19/2000 4:29:03 AM
"from a couple of weeks ago highlighting a very interesting quasi-xenophpobic anti-Indian "movement" in germany because someone suggested that the country import Indian computer programmers. Some German politician made the statement -"Children, not Indians" which has pissed off my countrymen no end. (Marjoribanks)
That someone who suggested it was Schröder, the German chancellor, at the CEBIT, biggest IT fair in the world as far as i know. I don't think it will remain a suggestion but will put into practice but until that happens a lot more German xenophobia will air.
The one who came up with the catchy "Kinder statt Inder" was Rüttgers from the CDU, who has an election to win and since his fellow Christian conservative Roland Koch in Hesse was wildly successful last year with another (even more outrageous imo) xenophobic campaign against the reform immigration law (mainly to make it easier for second and third-generation Turks to become Germans) and won the election in Hesse.
That was horrible to see that abominable campaign to prove successful in the election. But i think Rüttger's "Kinder statt Inder" will backfire, if not in the election next month than in the longer run. The most amazing thing is that Rüttgers was minister of science under Kohl, so he knows full well how dearly Germany needs specialists- because his own politics failed.
Alas it pays too often to cater to the lowest instincts. At least in Germany.
10226. marjoribanks - 4/19/2000 10:18:31 AM
Odd subcon image of the day. No extra points for guessing where it comes from.
10227. marjoribanks - 4/19/2000 10:30:44 AM
Interesting article from the FEER on Malaysian Indians here. Any comments?
10228. cmboyce - 4/19/2000 10:46:11 AM
Message # 10226: Can I get any points for asking where it came from? Is it a response to the recent murders, etc., or a traditional affair?
BTW, nice to see you Marj. We've both been away, lately. And I know that, in addition to India, you have your little hoopster-in-waiting to deal with. How's it going?
Unfortunately, I have to leave now, to be back God knows when, but I wanted to say hello.
10229. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2000 10:49:35 AM
marj
Nice to see you again!
10230. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2000 10:50:51 AM
You too, of course, Mr Boyce.
10231. marjoribanks - 4/19/2000 12:46:40 PM
Greetings to you too Pelle and Boyce.
The photograph is of traditional Lenten celebrations in Goa. My ancestral church (400+ yrs old) also features a carrying of a massive cross like the one depicted. Though this one is from a different village.
10232. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2000 4:52:15 PM
Tomorrow morning my wife and I will be off for the summer cottage we haven't seen for nine months. One must hope the winter storms have not done too much damage.
I will not bring the laptop. See you Monday.
10233. MrSocko - 4/19/2000 4:58:19 PM
Hey marjoribanks, what are you feeling about your pinup boy Mugabe now that he and the other racist dolts have revealed their grand economic master plan for Rhodesia?
10234. stostosto - 4/19/2000 4:58:44 PM
God påske, Pelle!
10235. pseudoerasmus - 4/19/2000 9:33:57 PM
I don't want to post this in the Language thread, but has anyone read the review of Tmachine's brother's book in the latest Foreign Affairs? It's a short review, but quite scathing.
10236. PincherMartin - 4/19/2000 9:44:25 PM
No, can you link it?
10237. stostosto - 4/20/2000 8:31:13 AM
Foreign Affairs is only partly online - in fact they have only small appetisers. It's quite maddening since they feature many highly interesting articles which could form good basis for discussions here. But here is the table of contents of the current issue.
This is the blurb it gives:
SORTING OUT THE BALKANS Ivo Banac
Two new books on Kosovo and a massive history of the Balkans try to make sense of a troubled region -- with wildly mixed results.
(Pincher: How do you do that nifty HTML tabulation trick of yours?)
10238. PincherMartin - 4/20/2000 11:38:38 AM
Sto --
My tabular skills have been underutilized lately. I'm afraid you are on your own.
10239. marjoribanks - 4/20/2000 5:17:34 PM
Very interesting series of articles on the topic here.
10240. CalGal - 4/20/2000 5:22:04 PM
Have you tried HTML hints? I just checked--the Table link doesn't work (sorry), but you can just scroll down to it.
10241. stostosto - 4/20/2000 7:44:30 PM
marj
I am reading Rushdie due to you; see message in Books
10242. LadyChaos - 4/20/2000 8:08:21 PM
Uh-oh. Great Britain looks set to adopt tough civil forfeiture laws. A very huge mistake being made by a government that has bought Clinton's cynicism lock, stock, and barrel.
10243. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/22/2000 6:16:38 AM
I just returned from an interesting event.
The occasion was a visit by Indonesian VP Megawati Soekarnoputri to officially open the school my son attends here in Bali.
The most interesting aspect was not the event itself, but the entourage acccompanying Mega. Her entourage outnumbered the invited guests, and filled the front three-quarters of the auditorium (leaving the guests to the rear one-third, far from the action).
The event was originally scheduled for tonight, but was moved to the afternoon to fit Mega's busy schedule. In her entourage were the Supreme Military Commander of the East Indonesia Region, Gen. Kiki Syahnakri (a name well known for his role in East Timor last year), the Governor of Bali, Dewa Made Brata, the Director General of Higher Education and the Director General of Private Schools from the Ministry of Education (the Minister himself was unable to attend, though he had been expected), the Rector of Udayana University, and about 50 other officials and military big-wigs of various types, as well as a large contingent from the Australian Embassy in Jakarta and the Australian Consulate here. Former Ambassador to Australia (and former editor of The Jakarta Post) Sabam Siagian was also an unexplained no-show, though he was scheduled to give an address.
[continued]
10244. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/22/2000 6:18:01 AM
There was nothing memorable about Mega's speech, as she served up a few platitudes and spoke for less than 5 minutes. Of more interest was the speech by Les Rowe, the Charge D'Affaires of the Australian Embassy, who filled in for the ambassador, who was unable to attend. Rowe mentioned the difficulties between the two countries in the past tense, and said that Australia strongly supports everything the current government is doing. He applauded the educational cooperation between the two nations, and pointed out that there are 9000 Indonesian students in Australia (compare that to 70,000 Indonesians in the USA), and that 200,000 Australians are currently studying the Indonesian language in Australia, a figure which impressed me (I'd guess there are no more than 500 Americans studying the language in the USA).
After her speech, Mega signed an official plaque, made a quick tour of the school, planted a Banyan tree in the school courtyard, and banged a gong to make everything official, then hurried off to her next appointment.
Of course, I had my trusty digital camera along, and took some photos. Here they are... less than two hours old (as I post this)...
10245. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/22/2000 6:24:21 AM
Mega giving her short speech. She spoke in Indonesian, although she showed that her English is not bad at all in casual remarks among the guests afterwards. My son had a chance to speak to her, though I didn't have the opportunity. One interesting aspect of her speech was that she opened the speech with the traditional Islamic speech-opening formula (no surprise) and followed with the traditional Balinese Hindu formula (highly unusual for a Muslim or a government official). 
Mega planting a Banyan tree, a national symbol of strength, protection, and longevity. Unfortunately, this photo does not show Mega's best side.
10246. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/22/2000 6:27:33 AM
Mega banging the gong to officially open the school. Nothing is official in Indonesia until the gong has sounded (it may be of interest to note here that the English word "gong" was originally borrowed from Javanese). 
Gen. Kiki Syahnakri being interviewed by the Indonesian press. Of the three Australians who welcomed him officially on the stage, not one got his name right.
10247. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/22/2000 6:33:25 AM
No building is official in Indonesia without one of these plaques. And the higher-ranking the person who signs it, the better. Here in Bali, there is no more prestigious person to have inaugurate your building than Megawati. The road to the school today was blocked to all but invited vehicles (fortunately, I had a pass), and was lined with crowds of cheering people awaiting Mega. 
The sign reads: "With the grace of the one and only God, The Australian International School is officially opened by the Vice President of the Republic of Indonesia, Megawati Soekarnoputri, Bali, 22 April 2000."
10248. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/22/2000 11:48:36 AM
I just realized I forgot to post my best picture of Mega from this afternoon's festivities. 
10249. CalGal - 4/22/2000 12:02:25 PM
Hey, that last one came out very nicely. Nice report.
10250. CalGal - 4/22/2000 12:02:58 PM
And my overuse of "nice" can be attributed to 60+ hours of work this week, and I'm still at work right now.
10251. stostosto - 4/22/2000 1:00:45 PM
Nice work, Cal.
10252. stostosto - 4/22/2000 1:03:39 PM
Thanks for the report Irving. I guess these close-range photos convincingly demonstrate your V.I.P. status in Indonesia, right?
10253. ScottLoar - 4/22/2000 1:38:59 PM
Gen. Kiki Syahnakri being interviewed by the Indonesian press. Of the three Australians who welcomed him officially on the stage, not one got his name right. Simply inexcusable. I myself have great difficulty remembering names and as I must make great effort to get them right I have next to no tolerance for those who do not.
10254. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/22/2000 1:51:29 PM
ScottLoar:
All three were reading from prepared texts. They were simply unable to pronounce "Syahnakri," and evidently hadn't asked anyone how to pronounce it. Not that it's a hard name to pronounce ("shah-NAHK-ree"). It wasn't the only name the Aussies messed up. My wife and I sat in the audience mouthing the correct pronunciations for many of the names. At least they all got Megawati's name correct.
Les Rowe, the Charge D'Affaires at the Australian Embassy, apologized (in horrendous Indonesian) for his inability to speak the language. He later mentioned that 200,000 Australians are studying Indonesian. Perhaps one of those can be appointed as the next Charge D'Affaires.
Sto:
I guess these close-range photos convincingly demonstrate your V.I.P. status in Indonesia, right?
No, they demonstrate that it was a very small crowd, and my abilities to push through a crowd (an ability Mr. Socko can attest to). I take my duties as the Mote reporter on Indonesian affairs seriously, and if a few Australians had to get trampled over in the process of bringing you this report, so be it.
10255. stostosto - 4/23/2000 11:38:02 AM
Irv:
I guess I should send those down-besnodgrassed Australians flowers on behalf of the Mote.
10256. stostosto - 4/23/2000 11:40:33 AM
...and thank you for the exquisite photo reportage. I like the one where Mega plants the tree.
10257. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 1:36:22 PM
By the way, it's often said that the USA imprisons more people than any other country. But apparently that's not true according to the number per 100 000 population. In ascending order of the data:
208 USA
216 Austria
226 Costa Rica
230 Botswana
247 Lithuania
248 Lesotho
248 Mauritius
251 Kyrgyzstan
260 El Salvador
260 Madagascar
263 Hong Kong
272 Norway
278 Maldives
283 Sudan
289 Denmark
302 Estonia
302 Malaysia
314 Brunei
419 Canada
419 Sri Lanka
440 Zambia
462 South Africa
528 Qatar
536 Guyana
631 Singapore
768 Latvia
931 Chile
967 Swaziland
1538 Russia
(source for 1994 figures)
10258. CalGal - 4/23/2000 1:46:33 PM
Jeez, Sto. Y'all are a bit extreme, don't you think?
Of course, the US lowers its numbers by killing some of their murderers off. So maybe we should bump ours up to 208.000023.
10259. stostosto - 4/23/2000 4:28:41 PM
It's an interesting statistic, and I'd like nothing better than to give you an exclusive insight into, a revelation even, of the little-known, and hitherto mysteriously well-hidden dark nature of Danes (or, if you like it that way, of the brutish Danish police state).
But, I think the explanation is probably more straightforward: There is something wrong about the statistic. So I checked an official statistical reference source (Statistisk Tiårsoversigt 1999).
If we look at the average daily number of inmates of 1994, the figure is 3,627. The pop. for that year is 5.197m yielding an incarceration rate of 69.8 per 100,000 pop.
International comparison statistics are frequently flawed. Everybody who is serious about such things knows that, but often when a body such as the UNDP, (or the OECD or the EU, or the IMF, or the World Bank) puts in work and guesstimates to compile a statistic, it's the best one available and is used as authoritative.
It may well be the most authoritative, but that doesn't mean the statistics are always credible.
(I don't know how the UNDP figure is arrived at, btw, my computer choked on that link).
10260. stostosto - 4/23/2000 4:33:44 PM
But it's interesting to note that Norway is also at the bottom end (though subpassed by Denmark) and that together with Austria and Canada (?!) they are the only OECD countries below the US level.
10261. CalGal - 4/23/2000 4:37:15 PM
Yeah, yeah. When in doubt, say the stats are wrong.
BTW, I met an interesting person from TT the other day. She and her husband live in Bolivia, although they are from the southeast US somewhere. I invited her over here--she seems to be the shy sort, so she may not come. But if she shows up, be nice.
10262. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 4:41:14 PM
There sure is something fishy about these stats. Does anyone seriously believe that Canada imprisons twice as many per 100,000 pop as the US?
CalGal?
10263. CalGal - 4/23/2000 4:44:29 PM
Pelle,
Oh, I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me if it were true, though. Y'all have these little countries, but a crook's a crook.
I'm just teasing you, though. Even if it were true, it doesn't make us any less the uncivilized barbarians. We like it that way.
10264. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 4:49:12 PM
Everybody who is serious about such things knows that, but often when a body such as the UNDP, (or the OECD or the EU, or the IMF, or the World Bank) puts in work and guesstimates to compile a statistic, it's the best one available and is used as authoritative.
Oh, please. We're not talking about data for Afghanistan or Rwanda. If some twit sitting in Coppershaven could find the statistic, so could even the drunks at the UN.
There sure is something fishy about these stats. Does anyone seriously believe that Canada imprisons twice as many per 100,000 pop as the US?
A fine example of logic. Nilsson uses stereotype to judge the validity of data, rather than some counter-data (like Sto). As though Nilsson knew something about American and Canadian prison populations.
10265. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 4:58:42 PM
No, PE, I know nothing about those. It's that rare but sometimes helpful endowment called common sense that leads me to query whether Canada really is twice as likely to imprison its citizens than is the US.
10266. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 4:59:50 PM
In the face of complete ignorance, to which you've admitted, common sense is nothing more than prejudice.
10267. stostosto - 4/23/2000 5:08:42 PM
Pseuder:
Worse mistakes have been made by stat people at the UN and other int'l org's, whether drunk or not.
Danish media knows no quicker way to a scoop than take some 'sensational' international comparison stat and fret about Denmark's worrying position. Often, if you seriously try to delve into such a matter, the story vanishes between one's hands. A recent example known to me is a stat about labour market integration of immigrants. There was a big story a couple months ago about an OECD compilation placing Denmark at the very bottom of the list of countries least likely to offer jobs to foreigners. I thought this interesting because I was making a small report on this subject at the time. But when I looked into it, it was one table buried in a major reference source on migration; not anything resembling an analysis.
And when I asked in the Danish Ministry for Labour, they said that they were not sure how the OECD got that figure at all, and that there are other stats telling different stories. (Admittedly, the ministry has its own agenda, but they did provide what you call counter data).
10268. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 5:09:03 PM
Do you think the figures are correct?
10269. stostosto - 4/23/2000 5:11:20 PM
That story, of course, is as much about the media's use of statistics as it's about the OECD's statisticians...
10270. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 5:16:30 PM
Stostosto: I first try to attribute conflicts between data to differences in methodology or definitions. When I've ruled that out, I think it's fine to start talking about mistakes.
10271. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 5:16:36 PM
#10268 was for PE.
10272. stostosto - 4/23/2000 5:17:52 PM
Pelle #10232: Are you back early from the cabin? Was it completely gone with the wind so you resolved to go home right away? Or did you bring your laptop anyway? (And what did your wife think of that?)
10273. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 5:17:54 PM
But it's hard to believe that data which are as easy to get as Canadian, American and Danish prison populations could be so vastly mistaken. Pelle's nothing-but-prejudice might be fit for talking about data regarding Kyrgyzstan.
10274. TabouliJones - 4/23/2000 5:20:25 PM
I have to admit my immediate response to the chart posted by PE was similar to Pelle's. I went to the Statistics Canada webpage and found a statistic indicating that, in 1997, the total inmate population in Canada (in both federal and provincial institutions) was 32 970. A low estimate of Canada's population in 1997 would be 25 million people -- which would make it 130 inmates per 100 000 people. So, the number quoted by PE's source would seem to be high for Canada. However, I did not really check the site all that closely to see if its methods were all that exacting. Nor, am equipped to quibble with statistical surveys or speak authoritatively about the reliability of various sources. The numbers could have been guestimates from all that I can fathom. If you wish to check out this source, go to http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/State/justic.htm#cri then scroll down and check out the links "Inmates in federal custody . . ." and "Inmates in provincial custody . . ."
10275. stostosto - 4/23/2000 5:20:44 PM
PE: That's a wise strategy, but it wasn't available to me in this instance as the link didn't work. And please note that I said "The explanation is probably more straightforward".
You have NOTHING on me that will stand up in court!
10276. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 5:21:45 PM
sto
The forecast was for rain today (and it was right) so we cut the visit short. To our relief there was only some minor damage from the storms, easily fixed.
10277. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 5:22:28 PM
Pelle should volunteer to go check the US and Canadian statistics, just to see.
10278. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 5:28:23 PM
PE
It seems TabouliJones just relieved me from that task.
10279. CalGal - 4/23/2000 5:30:43 PM
I wonder if Sto and TJ's numbers are for those that are in jail for the whole year?
10280. TabouliJones - 4/23/2000 5:33:55 PM
From the Stats Can. explanation of their numbers:
"Average counts until 1993 were based on 52 weekly counts. In 1993, the count is based on a snapshot taken on March 31."
So no, it would appear that the Stats Can. data does not include just inmates who were in prison for the entire year.
10281. CalGal - 4/23/2000 5:35:18 PM
I was just wondering if the discrepancy could be explained by short-term imprisonments. But apparently not.
10282. stostosto - 4/23/2000 5:36:46 PM
PE #10273:
But it's hard to believe that data which are as easy to get as Canadian, American and Danish prison populations could be so vastly mistaken. Pelle's nothing-but-prejudice might be fit for talking about data regarding Kyrgyzstan
Yes, it's hard to believe, but again, it has been known to happen. Another example - which is typical of the pitfalls in international comparisons - was an EU statistic some years ago comparing housing standards. Denmark came out at the very bottom, i.e. all the (poorer) EU countries in (warmer) Southern Europe had more rooms per dweller than in well-off freezing Denmark. Odd.
It turned out that the Danish way of counting housing excluded bathrooms and kitchens from the number of rooms in a dwelling, whereas other countries didn't, and that once you controlled for this, Denmark was near the top (as you'd expect from a country which has a time-honoured record of subsidising both private and public housing).
This was only established after the Danish Association of Constructors had been up in arms about the miserable Danish housing standards, and how the government had to take drastic measures to boost investment in housing in order to close the scandalous 'housing gap' with other EU countries.
10283. CalGal - 4/23/2000 5:38:21 PM
Actually, I was just at Time Magazine for something else (avoiding work, among other things--will this system never be built?) and found this:
For years, America's persistently falling crime rates have baffled the nation's policy wonks. The head-scratching can stop, because it's all been explained by a revelation Thursday from the Justice Department: There's no one left to commit crimes — everyone has been stuffed into prison. In part, of course, we jest; the figures, though, are serious. According to the DOJ's calculations, the U.S. adult prison population reached record levels in 1999; jails housed 1.86 million people last year, or one of every 147 citizens. That makes America, which in 1985 had less than 800,000 people behind bars, the most jail-happy nation in the world, edging out Russia, the former front-runner.
I have no idea how to translate these stats into the same format that PE used, but it looks a bit contradictory.
10284. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 5:40:51 PM
# 10282
But that's a legitimate, if inadvertent, difference in the method of counting. I mean, maybe Danes shit a lot more than Greeks and Italians.
There must be some perfectly logical explanation. I can't find any definitions, though.
10285. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 5:42:52 PM
Well, if you look at US figures for 1994, the UN figures (also for 1994) for the USA are approximately correct.
10286. TabouliJones - 4/23/2000 5:43:25 PM
Well that would make about 680 inmates per 100 000 people. But, who knows. I'm sure to make a proper comparison between countries you would need to cull all of your numbers using one consistent methodology.
10287. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 5:44:00 PM
PE
Upthread you asked about tables. It can be done directly in HTML but that's incredibly tedious. But it can also be done using the "Save as HTML" feature in Excel. It's a bit roundabout, though. I'm off to bed now but I'll post in Try the Mote tomorrow. This will include how to publish Excel charts in the Mote.
10288. TabouliJones - 4/23/2000 5:44:24 PM
That last post was to CalGal.
10289. stostosto - 4/23/2000 5:45:41 PM
CalGal
The Danish figure is for the average daily number of inmates, i.e. the number of prisoners serving time on a given day. The total number of imprisonments (everything included) is 35,708. If you use this number as an indicator, the Danish figure for 1994 is 687 per 100,000 pop. (Unfortunately it doesn't give a number close to the one in Pseuder's table; otherwise that could have been a possible explanation for the discrepancy...)
10290. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 5:45:42 PM
on the other hand, the us data seem to distinguish between "inmates" and "prisoners", so I'm not sure whether the UN figure matches the US figure.
nilsson, I did not ask you about tables. I know how to do tables.
10291. CalGal - 4/23/2000 5:47:23 PM
It was Sto who asked about HTML, I think.
PE, I wasn't posting that data to contradict you; I just saw it and thought it seemed pertinent.
10292. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 5:50:58 PM
PE
Yes, as CalGal says, it was sto who asked. Sorry about that.
10293. stostosto - 4/23/2000 5:55:32 PM
Pelle
I asked Pincher about tabulation upthread. He, and CalGal too I think, thought I meant tables so that may be the question about tables that you thought someone had asked. I didn't mean to ask about tables, though - I wanted to know how Pincher does that neat thing when he aligns a text block in the middle of a post to the right of the standard margin. (Isn't that called tabulation? If not that, then what?)
10294. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 6:00:28 PM
sto
I think it's called 'indentation'.
10295. PelleNilsson - 4/23/2000 6:12:00 PM
sto
Example:
I asked Pincher about tabulation upthread. He, and CalGal too I think, thought I meant tables so that may be the question about tables that you thought someone had asked. I didn't mean to ask about tables, though - I wanted to know how Pincher does that neat thing when he aligns a text block in the middle of a post to the right of the standard margin. (Isn't that called tabulation? If not that, then what?)
Syntax:
<_blockquote_> (whatever font formatting you want) text to be quoted<_/blockquote_>
Remove underscores.
10296. CalGal - 4/23/2000 6:16:43 PM
Yes, it's indentation.
BTW, you can eliminate the need for underscores by using the gt/lt form for angle brackets. &_lt and &_gt (eliminate underscores in this example, of course)
<then put in what you like>
10297. stostosto - 4/23/2000 6:18:44 PM
Pelle:
Remove underscores.
I did. That was easy. Thank you.
10298. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 6:22:59 PM
The BBC has a slim but still interesting series on " 10299. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 6:23:14 PM
I guess our thread hosts have decided to completely forsake the idea of summarising world events on a regular basis and decide to focus on Scandinavian trivia?
shit
10300. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 6:24:00 PM
Brazil at 500, a very controversial celebration of the Portuguese "discovery" of Brazil.
10301. stostosto - 4/23/2000 6:58:38 PM
Pseuder
We haven't decided to stop summarising world events. We have just stopped. (It's bloody time consuming...)
As to focusing on Scandi trivia, well... That's probably what we do best. But I am always glad to welcome your often interesting contributions.
10302. stostosto - 4/23/2000 7:13:34 PM
Regarding Brazil, that far away country of which we Scandies know very little, I half-heard a radio programme about a huge operation that the Brazilian authorities for indigenous people had been running for decades. This agency whose official objective was to protect native Amazon inhabitants had not only systematically plundered and exploited the indians; they had also massacred them in horrible numbers, not shying away from attacking villagers with fighter aircraft.
This was found out by a commission which submitted a huge and detailed report documenting countless atrocities plus a well-organised business operation enriching the officers and bureaucrats in charge. There was a huge scandal, and a purge of at least some of the people responsible.
My understanding was that this took place some twenty years ago. Perhaps others here have heard about this. Like I said, I had my attention at other things as this radio programme was on (sorry).
10303. stostosto - 4/23/2000 7:16:23 PM
Sorry about the first paragraph in my last post. It's a quote from that BBC piece PE linked.
10304. robertjayb - 4/23/2000 11:12:46 PM
.
What it means to be Canadian
North of the border, Canadians have at long last found something to rally 'round. Something that makes them swell with patriotic pride and cheer themselves hoarse. Something that taps into the very essence of their national identity.
A beer commercial...
10305. sakonige - 4/23/2000 11:51:08 PM
Message # 10300
I believe this is the first such massive demonstration by indigenous people in Brazil. Exciting changes are taking place in Latin American Indians' perception of their role in contemporary society. Most native leaders probably come from traditionally communal villages and will tend to be far to the left politically. Their increasing influence will pull governments throughout Latin American to the left.
10306. pseudoerasmus - 4/23/2000 11:54:13 PM
Hahahaha.
10307. ilyavinarsky - 4/23/2000 11:54:58 PM
Pseuder, what do you think of my picture of the Ukrainian economy?
10308. sakonige - 4/24/2000 12:06:38 AM
I think it would increase the polical influence of Indians throughout the region for Toledo to win the presidential election in Peru this summer.
10309. stostosto - 4/24/2000 7:17:36 AM
rjb
That's quite funny. And the Canadian way of distinguishing themselves - by what they are not - sounds familiar to me. I think it's the most common, perhaps the only?, way of building a national identity. Only Canadians probably have to look a little closer than most to see what it really is that is different about them. (The pronunciation of 'Z'...!)
Apart from Quebec, that is. If only the Quebecois weren't so damn French-minded in their heads, Canadians at large would probably tout this enclave as what Canada is all about...
10310. marjoribanks - 4/24/2000 8:54:31 AM
I've skimmed the BBC link on Brazil at 500, and fail to see what is so controversial about the evnts that took place? The protests of the indigenous? In fact, in my opinion, the presence of the Portuguese officials is what is controversial.
The CNCPD (?) a Portuguese semi-governmental organization set up to commemorate the centuries-old "discoveries" tried to pull of similar festivities in India last year. They were roundly rebuffed, denounced by both government and people, and had to settle for a sober funereal little gathering in Calicut. Even that was marked by protestors.
The fact is that while the event of the Portuguese landings should perhaps be remembered at these anniversaries, there is precious little to celebrate.
10311. Adrianne - 4/24/2000 9:29:27 AM
Does anyone know why these folks
10312. Adrianne - 4/24/2000 9:31:09 AM
(excuse me)
CONT: were taken hostage?
10313. marjoribanks - 4/24/2000 9:31:53 AM
Is that a riddle? If so, the answer is - Commies.
10314. marjoribanks - 4/24/2000 9:36:47 AM
Idly, I found the CNCDP homepage. Note it has nothing highlighting the Vasco da Gama trip or anything particular from Asia. This is because the only countries which collaborated in their activities were Cabo Verde and Brazil, as far as I know.
10315. marjoribanks - 4/24/2000 9:38:31 AM
No surprise, given these kinds of images. Note the happy innocent welcome given the jovial traveller from mighty Portugal.
10316. TabouliJones - 4/24/2000 11:42:57 AM
I agree with much of what the article said about Canadian identity issues. And I, in fact, would love to be in the U.S. making some decent money. However, one claim was just flat out ludicrous -- namely:
"Patients in need of high-quality health care flee the country's nationalized medical system."
Our medical system is excellent. Occasionally you will hear stories about the occasional person who goes to the States to get some specific treatment or other. Sometimes the patient is just being, well, impatient -- not willing to wait a reasonable amount of time for minor elective surgery -- or they are after some sort of cosmetic surgery. This is hardly a situation of patients fleeing our health care system. And get this, if you do need to go to the U.S. to receive treatment that can only be done expeditously in the U.S., then the government will pick up the tab.
Every so often, you hear some American pundit claiming that our health care system is in tatters, and that nationalized health care is going the way of the Dodo bird. Such claims are simply specious; and, most likely, have more to do with that person's position on American health care issues, rather than a reasoned assessment of Canada's medical system.
10316. stostosto - 4/24/2000 11:42:57 AM
marj
Could you give a brief brief on your ethnicity? I think you've done it before but I am afraid I didn't pay attention.
How many Portuguese descendants are there in Goa?
10317. stostosto - 4/24/2000 12:13:38 PM
TabouliJones:
I didn't know you were Canadian. I actually had the same thoughts about the remark on health care. It can be infuriating to have to queue for a treatment which can be provided right away in the US or elsewhere where pricing of health services eliminate queues - if you have the money that is. Hence there is bound to be instances where Canadians 'flee' the national system in order to get 'high-quality' health care.
Besides there is bound to be instances where it's simply more economical to have a facility on the American side of the border serve up a market stretching into Canada, especially with specialised treatments that require a large population base. In such cases it's no more than sensible for the Canadian government to pay for its citizens being treated in the US rather than establish expensive facilities themselves. (I don't know whether the Canadian government really is that otherworldly sensible and economical, but it's a possibility).
10318. RustlerPike - 4/25/2000 3:31:43 AM
Hello again all and thanks for the warm welcome some 100 posts back. Things are hectic, sorry... I'm doing a 100 things at once in RL and so cyberlife has to take a back seat for a while. I'll get back to posting as soon as I can.
R. Pike
10319. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 9:36:52 AM
Odd, I just read this story in the Independent, which states that 50 million subcontinental are threatened by the worst drought in a century, and has all kinds of dramatic language about parched fields and dying cattle. Yet, I haven't read a single thing about this "major story" in the subcon press. Then again, there's little in the subcon press these days other than the cricket scandal, the cricket scandal, the cricket scandal, and the President's visit to France.
10320. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 9:49:23 AM
Well, okay, I was wrong. There are lots of articles on groundwater and relief packages in the Indian press. It's just that there is nothing quite as dramatic as the English press coverage. 
Protest riots as 50 million Indians face famine! screams the Telegraph.
10321. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 10:15:24 AM
Irva,
This article on Indonesia from the NYRB may interest you. Comments appreciated.
10322. stostosto - 4/25/2000 10:17:24 AM
marj - thanks for linking that. I heard a report yesterday on the radio and expected you to register it here.
Rediff does have something - if you look for it:
Famine forces Rajasthan's villagers to migrate
"As per official figures, more than 25 million people and 30 million cattle are hit by famine conditions in the state, which is reeling under a famine for the second consecutive year. "
Believe it or not: drought haunts Cherrapunji
"Between January and May, the residents of Cherrapunji - the second wettest place on earth -- spend half their time in collecting and storing water for daily use. "
10323. stostosto - 4/25/2000 10:18:58 AM
Oh. I forgot to refresh after having read marj's #10319.
10324. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 10:25:35 AM
That is one strange article on Cherrapunji, sto.
Its also unrealted to the drought that's affecting Gujerat, Rajasthan, and parts of Eastern India. The areas worst hit in the first two are chronically dry scrubland at the best of times. Anyway, it's clearly going to be an extremely rough summer in India this year, and the monsoons will be even more eagerly anticipated than usual.
10325. stostosto - 4/25/2000 10:29:51 AM
Marj
Everything about India is strange to me. No fault of India's. Nor, certainly, of yours.
10326. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 10:33:05 AM
Well, sto, if you really want to know, I find Scandinavia and Scandinavians bewilderingly exotic and otherworldly.
10327. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 10:43:55 AM
Actually, India never fails to amaze, even for people like myself who hav travelled relentlessly up and down the subcontinent. There is always something stranger and more mystifying that comes up, whether ethnographically or just plain weird circumstance.
I just read a very highly entertaining (though I suspect embellished) book by a winning young Pathan gentleman from England (a member of Afghan nobility, actually) who travelled to and through India in a quest to learn about magic. On the way he manages to debase himself in any number of ways, but the narrative is highly enjoyable and surreal.
Check it out, it's one of the best reads I've had this year.
10328. stostosto - 4/25/2000 10:48:18 AM
How twisted you are. We Scandinavians - no, make that we Danes - are normal in the extreme. We are, quite simply, the yardstick of normalcy.
10329. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 10:54:01 AM
By the way, the book isn't available in the States, but you can see it's highly popular here . Certainly, I'm eager to read his first travel book now.
10330. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 10:56:53 AM
Sto,
The most exotic places I've ever visited:
Gary, Indiana
Cleveland
Dallas
Chicago
Orlando
Milton Keynes
Copenhagen
10331. stostosto - 4/25/2000 11:40:55 AM
Marj #10330: Twisted, indeed. (I guess you haven't been to Duisburg).
Have you seen this interview with Salman Rushdie made during his recent (present?) visit to India?
It's more like a chat and has mostly the sensational value of him giving interviews at all. There is also the curiosity of it being conducted in Hindustani. (Don't worry Anglolinguals, translation is provided).
But one can't help but feel sorry for him, what with that insane fatwa and accompanying hysteria.
----
Does anyone know how it comes about that the word of Iranian Shia Muslim leader Ayatollah Khomeini has been taken so seriously by non-Persian, Sunni Muslims?
I think I have seen people in the know attempting to parallel this divide in Islam to the one in Christianity between Catholics and Protestants. But which Christian Church leader would be able to command the adherents of churches outside his (or her) own? Certainly not the Pope - and who else is there to command anything whatsoever?
10332. pseudoerasmus - 4/25/2000 12:49:32 PM
Does anyone know how it comes about that the word of Iranian Shia Muslim leader Ayatollah Khomeini has been taken so seriously by non-Persian, Sunni Muslims?
I don't think there is anything surprising or unusual about it. I am certain there must be something -- a movie or a book or a piece of music -- which Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox have in common found sacrilegious and have taken to protesting (if not issuing a fatwa!).
10333. SpenceMirrlees - 4/25/2000 12:59:23 PM
Marjoribanks: may I ask what and where you visited in Gary, IN?
10334. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/25/2000 1:03:56 PM
Marj Message # 10321:
I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but I've bookmarked it. I look forward to reading Clifford Geertz (one of the experts on Indonesia I respect most, and have for many years) in the NYR, a magazine I read and enjoy whenever I can.
10335. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 1:57:39 PM
Spence,
I spent a day and a half in Gary, visiting a college roommate. That place is damned exotic to my eyes, the factory wasteland part of it alone is absolutely otherworldly.
10336. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2000 2:00:29 PM
We don't discuss Africa much here but we may soon have occasion to, and for all the wrong reasons.
Here is an Economist "Special" on the tragic and disquieting situation in Zimbabwe.
The mess one man makes.
It's rather long but you can boomark it for later. I will leave it up for a couple of weeks.
10337. SpenceMirrlees - 4/25/2000 2:44:36 PM
marjoribanks, I grew up about 10 miles from Gary, and I too have always been fascinated with the industrial landscape. Not just in Gary, but Whiting and East Chicago as well. The factories, mills and refineries -- but the whole scene as well. I love the restaurants in north Whiting, with 30 foot red velvet curtains and seating for 900 and one room of all green, and fresh lake perch swimming in enough butter that the fish need not actually be dead, where surely many a deal was made between Oldsmobile driving managers at the Inland/US/LTV/Metron/Ryerson Steel Christmas party. I especially enjoy thinking of what it must have been like to entertain foreign managers in such a setting.
10338. SpenceMirrlees - 4/25/2000 2:46:33 PM
and compared to that, Georgie's BBQ Pit on Broadway in Gary is an otherworldly experience. Certainly a different culture.
10339. CalGal - 4/25/2000 2:46:56 PM
My ex is going to Bangalore (sp?) on a business trip. Any advice for him?
10340. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 3:11:06 PM
There is nothing that distingusihes Bangalore from Silicon Valley.
Spence, I think I ate at that restaurant. certainly, i had the strangest ever Chinese meal in or around Gary. The least Chinese Chinese food I've evr encountered in an outrageously velveted setting, with little parasols in my coke.
10341. CalGal - 4/25/2000 3:13:42 PM
So he can get cable TV in the hotel and Starbucks or Peets in the morning?
He'll be relieved to know.
10342. janjon - 4/25/2000 3:15:04 PM
I suppose Urbanfetch could replicate that, marj.
Say, did you see my post to the effect that we've bought a loft in Tribeca and move back in from the tundra in a few months?
It can be done. It can be done.
10343. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 3:17:56 PM
Cable TV, yes. Even HBO and CNBC and other such. Starbucks, there is one. But coffee is rather freely available, anyway.
I saw, Janjon. Enjoy UrbanFetching when you get located. BTW, Tribeca loft? How impressively trendy.
10344. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2000 3:18:12 PM
CalGal
If Bangalore is like Silicon Valley it must have changed a lot since 1993.
10345. CalGal - 4/25/2000 3:24:30 PM
Pelle,
Well, that's what I'm thinking, too. But Banks is the sort who might not notice the difference.
Actually, I was wondering about restaurants and sights to see. But apparently, he'll be able to go to any one of several excellent Mexican establishments and take a day trip to Carmel.
10346. marjoribanks - 4/25/2000 3:27:25 PM
Well, checkout bangaloreguide.com and tell me if I'm exaggerating very much.
10347. CalGal - 4/25/2000 3:29:54 PM
Heavens, all it takes is a sarcastic prod or three to get useful information. Not bad. Thanks for the link; I'll pass it on.
10348. stostosto - 4/25/2000 4:25:15 PM
Heavens.
10349. stostosto - 4/25/2000 4:28:07 PM
Pelle, hörru!
Neither Bangalore nor Africa is part of Scandinavia.
10350. stostosto - 4/25/2000 4:44:51 PM
If Bangalore is like Silicon Valley it must have changed a lot since 1993.
Perhaps Silicon Valley changed. When were you there last?
10351. stostosto - 4/25/2000 4:54:27 PM
(And Silicon Valley isn't part of Scandinavia neither. Strictly speaking).
10352. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2000 5:05:10 PM
sto
We must branch out. And break out from our ossified Scandicentric patterns of thought.
10353. robertjayb - 4/25/2000 5:29:26 PM
.
WWI Gallipoli Landings Marked
10354. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2000 5:42:49 PM
Interesting IHT article about IT students in India. Excerpt:
The seemingly pointless exercise of reducing squares of steel for eight weeks using nothing but a file is a long-standing early part of the core curriculum required of all students at the superelite Indian Institute of Technology at Madras, one of the six undergraduate Indian Institutes of Technology. The schools train a disproportionate number of the world's leading Internet-era entrepreneurs.
Anna Lee Saxenian, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley who studies Silicon Valley, reckons that 10 percent of Silicon Valley startups between 1995 and 1998 were created by Indians, most of whom graduated from the institutes.
10355. ScottLoar - 4/25/2000 5:45:39 PM
Okay. What's the point of reducing squares of steel for eight weeks using nothing but a file in an institute of technology (assuming the students are free to come and go as they choose)?
10356. ScottLoar - 4/25/2000 5:46:37 PM
Is this some kind of physical koan?
10357. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2000 5:49:59 PM
robert
It's a pity that Candide is not around to comment. I recall she said once that the antipodeans still hate Churchill for Gallipoli.
10358. pseudoerasmus - 4/25/2000 5:52:15 PM
No, I pointed how silly the Antipodeans were for blaming Churchill for Gallipolli is (the disaster occurred long after Churchill fell out of the ministry responsible for the disaster, Churchill's plans were not the one carried out). Candide blamed Churchill for some other ills.
10359. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2000 6:03:35 PM
PE
My recollection is that Churchill was forced to resign as First Lord of the Admiralty as a result of the Gallipoli debacle. He returned to Government a while later in some other capacity (Supplies? Munitions? Something like that.)
10360. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2000 6:05:23 PM
ScottLoar
The answers are in the article.
10361. ScottLoar - 4/25/2000 6:11:11 PM
PelleNilsson;
I have just read the article. I am no closer to truth and understanding, save the blisters are a badge of honour like the fencing scars from Heidelberg University.
10362. robertjayb - 4/25/2000 6:20:58 PM
.
Speaking of disasters: A Vietnam Premonition...from The New York Times
10363. PelleNilsson - 4/25/2000 6:21:35 PM
PE
I was wrong about WC being forced out because of Gallipoli; it was the Dardanelles failure that did it.
From the Britannica:
In 1915, when Churchill became an enthusiast for the Dardanelles expedition as a way out of the costly stalemate on the Western Front, he had to proceed against Fisher's disapproval. The campaign aimed at forcing the straits and opening up direct communications with Russia. When the naval attack failed and was called off on the spot by Adm. J.M. de Robeck, the Admiralty war group and Asquith both supported de Robeck rather than Churchill. Churchill came under heavy political attack, which intensified when Fisher resigned. Preoccupied with departmental affairs, Churchill was quite unprepared for the storm that broke about his ears. He had no part at all in the maneuvers that produced the first coalition government and was powerless when the Conservatives, with the sole exception of Sir William Maxwell Aitken (soon Lord Beaverbrook), insisted on his being demoted from the Admiralty to the duchy of Lancaster. There he was given special responsibility for the Gallipoli Campaign (a land assault at the straits) without, however, any powers of direction. Reinforcements were too few and too late; the campaign failed and casualties were heavy; evacuation was ordered in the autumn. In November 1915 Churchill resigned from the government and returned to soldiering, seeing active service in France as lieutenant colonel of the 6th Royal Scots Fusiliers.
So it seems he was given responsibility without authority for Gallipoli. Still, his name is associated with it.
10364. SnowOwl - 4/25/2000 6:24:31 PM
Pelle,
If Candide said that Antipodeans still hated Churchill for Gallipoli she was somewhat overstating the case. Churchill is dead. It was 85 years ago. In fact, ANZAC Day has come to signify the day on which we achieved some sort of nationhood, and it's a day of honour rather than mourning.
A recent survey showed that the majority of young New Zealanders nowadays don't even know where Gallipoli is, let alone have any clear understanding of what happened there.
If we're going to hate him for Gallipoli we might as well hate him for Crete, which was as big a debacle as Gallipoli, and an area in which New Zealanders were heavily involved as well.
10365. Seguine - 4/25/2000 6:28:03 PM
Excellent article in
Foreign Affairs on Assad's motivations re the Golan, Barak's tactical miscalculation, etc.
10366. robertjayb - 4/25/2000 6:39:04 PM
Thanks Pelle, SnowOwl...for your comments. I was struck when reading the Vietnam editorial and the Gallipoli piece by the similarity of the casualty reports.
Now I am pondering what such losses must have meant back then in the populations of New Zealand and Australia.
10367. pseudoerasmus - 4/25/2000 6:45:48 PM
Nilsson, Britannica is a proletarian publication riddled with errors --something Irving and I discovered last year.
Read any biography of Churchill or history of the war -- the Dardanelles operation (the forcing of the straits and bombarding Constantinople) did not fail so much as it was abandoned prematurely. It was abandoned because various admirals got cold feet about losing a few ships and various generals argued that the straits could not be forced without a landing in Gallipoli. Churchill's plan was to force the straits first with the navy before landing any troops anywhere.
10368. CalGal - 4/25/2000 7:25:39 PM
Scott,
I am no closer to truth and understanding, save the blisters are a badge of honour like the fencing scars from Heidelberg University.
I got the impression that they teach the filing, etc, because they want their students to become real engineers--the type that build bridges, etc. Instead, they are all going into high tech.
It wouldn't surprise me that a lot of startups are created by Indians with green cards (although I don't think they could do it with an H1B visa, could they?). Exodus was started by Indians, I know. My guess is that a good number of them came from HP.
10369. ScottLoar - 4/25/2000 7:35:11 PM
No, CalGal, I grasped (groped, as the article is poorly written and poorly presented) that filing cubes is somehow vaguely related to working exactly at a task, a discipline that I would hold akin to the apprentice assasins of the Old Man of the Mountain who would continuously ladle water with pitchers having no bottoms, and so my reference - unappreciated - to a koan.
Ah well.
10370. CalGal - 4/25/2000 7:38:25 PM
Oh, I agree that it was tough to read. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that filing stuff is big for building bridges--resonant with history and The Old Way.
10371. dusty - 4/25/2000 7:59:00 PM
Does a post require a response to be appreciated?
10372. MrSocko - 4/26/2000 8:04:59 AM
PE:
Do you subscribe to the idea that the Japanese suffer from an anti/philo-semitic complex -- or in the words of one writer, that they "have developed a horror and fascination with the Jews on a par with the strongest European traditions, and a surprising number of Japanese seem to enter political, economic, and intellectual life with Jews on the brain"? I lifted that last bit from a review of "Jews in the Japanese Mind: The History and Uses of a Cultural Stereotype" by
David Goodman and Masanori Miyazawa. Are you familiar with either the proposition or the book?
10373. marjoribanks - 4/26/2000 9:23:06 AM
The IIT's are the source of not only a disproportionate # of Internet start-up entrepreneurs, their graduates are wildly overreprented in the higher echlons of both American and U businesses. The CEO of Citibank is an IIT guy, as is the CEO of US Air and several other Fortune 500 companies.
The thing is, these people are the very best and brightest of the whole country. Hundreds of thousands take the open entrance exams (hard-core math, physics, chemisty) and something like 3000 get in. These get a virtually free four year education in engineering or computer science or physics an the majority are courted by Western institutions before they even complete three years. One year, about 15 years ago, the ENTERING class for computer science at the Bombay IIT (30 students) got a blanket recruitment letter from Microsoft.
Michael Lewis's 'The New New Thing' covers a lot of this in an interesting chapter on the IIT's.
10374. marjoribanks - 4/26/2000 9:56:50 AM
The best article I've read on the IIT phenomenon.
10375. PelleNilsson - 4/26/2000 10:26:32 AM
marj
When I read about the metal filing exercise I thought about a curious phenomenon occurring in the Middle East and - less frequently - in Africa. There you can see male clerks who have allowed the nail on the little finger grow to an absurd length. This is to demonstrate that they don't have to use their hands for anything more streneous than lifting a pen. It is also a sign of disdain for manual labour.
Is this attitude common within the Indian middle classes as well? If so, could the purpose of the meaningless IIT exercise be to break it?
10376. marjoribanks - 4/26/2000 10:31:00 AM
Pelle, the kind of kid who attends IIt is a super-high achieving math geek, fluent in English and usually very Westernized. I think the point of the filing exrcise is to teach discipline and single-mindedness, nothing more.
However, I have seen people who grow that pinky nail in India. I'm unaware of the reason, yours sounds plausible enough.
Unrelatedly, Pelle, I just read an outstanding travel book on Yemen by a qat-chewing English epatriate who has moved there for good. I'll try and find the name.
10377. marjoribanks - 4/26/2000 10:35:03 AM
10378. IrvingSnodgrass - 4/26/2000 12:38:30 PM
Strangely enough, here in Indonesia, it is the thumbnail which is grown long to show that a person is not a manual laborer. This tradition, which was still extremely common 20-30 years ago, has been disappearing, and it is rare today to find people with long thumbnails.
Marj:
Why is Yemen called "Dictionary Land"?
10379. ScottLoar - 4/26/2000 1:18:00 PM
Some pimps in the US also affected a long pinky nail. Nothing unusual about this, as long fingernails remark the hand is not for manual labour. In some cultures the fingernail is left long to accent the hand as among dancers and courtesans.
10380. marjoribanks - 4/26/2000 1:20:47 PM
Irva,
1) I've sen the long thumbnail more than the long pinkie nail in India. I believe the longest nails on record (as per Guinness's book) were found on some Indian dude.
2) The author of the book found that Yemen would be the best place to study clasical Arabic as per his dictionary at Oxford. At least that's what I understand. A good review of the book is here.
10381. PelleNilsson - 4/26/2000 2:10:14 PM
marj
Thanks for the book tip. I've put it on my to-buy-list. I have his earlier work Yemen - Travels in Dictionary Land which I like very much.
10382. marjoribanks - 4/26/2000 2:24:54 PM
Er, Pelle my friend, that is exactly the book I've been touting as you will be able to see in the very large image I reproduced above of its cover.
10383. robertjayb - 4/26/2000 2:28:04 PM
.
A longish piece on Bangalore as Silicon Valley...from wired.com
10384. marjoribanks - 4/26/2000 2:47:10 PM
Interesting article, RJB. Thanks for linking it.
Now see why I said bangalore isn't much different from Silicon Alley?
10385. PelleNilsson - 4/26/2000 3:23:49 PM
marj
The same book? Must be that you refer to the US edition then. My book looks like this and was published in 1997. 
I guess the US is a bit behind on the goodies then.
10386. PincherMartin - 4/26/2000 9:31:24 PM
Here is an interesting ranking of the top forty Asian cities to live in:
ASIA'S BEST CITIES
There are some major surprises. Of the Chinese cities, Taipei is #2 (Wow!!!!!), Singapore is #5, Hong Kong and Shanghai are tied for #9, Kaohsiung is #11, Beijing is #17, Guangzhou is #20, and Chongqing is #21.
10387. pseudoerasmus - 4/26/2000 9:33:14 PM
The fact that Karachi -- Karachi! -- as well as Islambad and Delhi could be ranked above Bombay somewhat vitiates the credibility of that list.
10388. MrSocko - 4/26/2000 10:35:32 PM
No thoughts on Message # 10372, PE?
10389. pseudoerasmus - 4/26/2000 11:08:23 PM
Sorry, I missed that.
Jews and Japan together have never really crossed my mind. I have certainly never heard anti-Semitic remarks from a Japanese, but I do know that earlier in the century Protocols of the Elders of Zion was translated into Japanese and became quite popular. I'm sure the vast majority of Japanese have never met a Jew in their whole life, and I'm equally sure that no Jew has ever been in Japan except as a visitor.
10390. ilyavinarsky - 4/26/2000 11:12:59 PM
Ask Henry Shames about the be-shtreiml-ed man he met while stationed in Japan in 1945.
10391. marjoribanks - 4/27/2000 9:32:19 AM
That Asiaweek list is monumentally stupid. As PE said, the low ranking of Bomba