International 5

sto,

Is Denmark's Muslim population primarily Turkish, as in Germany?

20144. sakonige - 6/6/2001 12:23:17 PM

Message # 20140

sako, you really do love me.

Sure, I like you RustlerPike. You're a lot of fun.

20145. sakonige - 6/6/2001 12:27:56 PM

How about a tango in Buenos Aires?

I would love to!

20146. Uzmakk - 6/6/2001 6:30:54 PM

Pike:

I am also concerned for you. You have to get away from these hounds here on the Mote and you have to get over having your carbine taken away from you. You need a distraction, you need a diversion, you need something that is completely different than all of the things that you normally do and worry about. You need a quest, Pike; and I, the Steppelord, am going to supply you with such a boon.

Expect an email by this coming Sunday.

I have spoken.

20147. arkymalarky - 6/6/2001 7:43:53 PM

Oh, Landogoshen.

20148. joezan - 6/6/2001 7:49:06 PM

arky:

Do people really say that?

I thought it was just something Loweesie from the Snuffy Smiff show said.

(-;

20149. sakonige - 6/6/2001 7:54:41 PM

I said something kind of like that when TT crashed in the midst of a fine flame this afternoon. PE was just getting ready to blast the hell out of some poor sucker who would not quit while he was behind.

20150. sakonige - 6/6/2001 8:05:01 PM

It's not really schadenfreude to laugh at someone who asks for their grief.

20151. arkymalarky - 6/6/2001 8:05:54 PM

I thought since RP's in the Middle East it was appropriate somehow. Plus my grandmother used to say it. She had all kinds of neat stuff like that to replace cussing.

Gee, Sakonige, I've seen so much of that in 3 and a half years it wouldn't be too special. Besides, you know he'll do it again once TT is back up.

20152. sakonige - 6/6/2001 8:11:57 PM

Hi, arkymalarky! There's often a lot of good information laced into the insults. Part of this argument concerned the factors contributing to the drop in the crime rate in the last decade. I had a nice, thick wedgie I was waiting to drive into a crevice, but it may not pop out again.

20153. arkymalarky - 6/6/2001 8:16:06 PM

Hahaha! Well, maybe TT will get back up before the wedgie opportunity passes you by.

20154. RustlerPike - 6/7/2001 2:34:26 AM

sto, uzmakk:

I would be very grateful if you could arrange a week for me (and maybe my kids - how will I live without them?) on a secluded beach somewhere. Is this something that the Mote can arrange?

Still, the very thought counts. It also reminds me that there is peace and quiet somewhere.

We tied Spain last night, 1:1. But Spain deserved to beat us.

20155. RustlerPike - 6/7/2001 2:36:33 AM

I have this new persona I want to try out but I don't know how to convince The Mote server that I am not Rustler Pike. Anyone?

20156. stostosto - 6/7/2001 3:30:43 AM

Rustler,

If you can arrange to come to Denmark, you're always welcome, kids included. Just say when.

And 1-1 against Spain is a highly respectable result, even if the Spaniards possibly deserved the win. How is Richard Nielsen doing? Is he popular? Because as I've probably told you, he never was here, even though he coached the team that so fabulously won the Euro Championship in 1992. By! Beating! The! Germans! 2!-0!

20157. stostosto - 6/7/2001 3:31:36 AM

I mean that part about you coming to Denmark, btw.

20158. stostosto - 6/7/2001 3:37:26 AM

Ronski,

yes, the Muslims here are primarily Turks, but many of those are Kurds which is not quite the same thing. We do not have as high a proportion of foreigners in general, and Turks in particular, as they do in Germany.

We also have many Pakistanis, Iraqis, Lebanese/Palestinians, Iranians, Bosnians, and Somalis - plus a few from many other countries, e.g. Sri Lanka.

20159. alistairconnor - 6/7/2001 3:48:23 AM

Russ: We tied Spain last night, 1:1
Well, Spain beat France a few weeks ago... so that means Israel is the best (non-)nation in the world!

Does that cheer you up?

Sto :
You really think that a month on a Danish beach would cheer him up? I hope you've got boots and oilskins to lend him.

20160. stostosto - 6/7/2001 4:08:44 AM

alistair:

I said a week. What do you know about Danish beaches, btw? Have you ever been here?

And how say you about me and family coming for a visit in the third week of July?

I have received a number of offerings for so-called gîtes accommodations. I think we'll prefer that to the tent, after all.

One problem is I can't find precisely where the different gîtes are located, since I don't have a map where these tiny villages appear.

Could I mail you about it?

20161. stostosto - 6/7/2001 4:13:02 AM

And, alistair:

What's with the French world champions anyway? They lost to Australia?!

By contrast, Denmark proudly beat the shit out of the football superpower of Malta yesterday: 2-1 on our home ground.

OK, so maybe that wasn't so great, but we beat the Czechs 2-1 last Saturday, so now we're actually the top dog of our qualification group, and we just might pull it off.

20162. alistairconnor - 6/7/2001 4:37:11 AM

It was just a cheap shot, Sto. No, I've never been further north than Belgium or Wales, so I've no idea what Danish beaches are like. Given the high concentration of pig farms in Denmark, is there a problem of algae washing up on the beaches due to nitrate laden runoff? This has been happening on a large scale in Britanny and lower Normandy over the the past few years. Yucky.


... Please mail me about the gîtes. And you are welcome for the third week of July.

20163. stostosto - 6/7/2001 5:05:47 AM

alistair,

pig farms do constitute an environmental problem, exactly along the lines you mention: Nitrate in the sea water nourishes the excessive growth of algae which suffocate other forms of life. We haven't had significant problems with algae pollution on our beaches, even though there have been temporary prohibitions against bathing last year or the year before.

I think the problem has been at least partly taken care of by way of a huge environmental program that obliges the farmers to contain the pig shit and piss in enourmous tanks and regulates at which time of year they're allowed to spread it on the fields. It's a question of when the plants are most able to absorb it.

This program - "the water environmental plan" --was laid out and adopted by parliament back in 1988, I think, and it has been a source of much anger and quarrel between farmers' organisations and the environmental authorities and politicians ever since.

(It feels like I have mentioned this before here...)

20164. alistairconnor - 6/7/2001 5:48:32 AM

Don't think you have Sto. A few weeks ago, the French government was condemned by the courts for issuing permits for new pig farms which do not respect the obstensibly stringent anti-pollution regulations... paradoxically, this was hailed as a landmark victory by the minister of the environment! (she is Green, and is making little headway against agricultural pollution because of the power of the farmers' lobby).

20165. RustlerPike - 6/7/2001 6:27:00 AM

Sto:

Could you post a picture of a Danish beach that I could conceivably hole up in? I would upload a picture of me and then my cyberimage could live on that beach. I'm sure it would make me feel a tad better.

Which reminds me of what a shrink once told me: neurotics build castles in the sky. Psychotics live in them.

20166. RustlerPike - 6/7/2001 6:29:53 AM

As for the football team: I don't know, I just don't believe in Israeli football for some reason. I think we can do a lot better.

It's largely a population problem, of course. If we had 60 million people to pick from instead of 6, we would probably have a better team, no.

Which brings me back to the subject of conquest... hmmmm...

20167. stostosto - 6/7/2001 7:14:35 AM

Rustler,

we have only 5 million to pick from...

20168. RustlerPike - 6/7/2001 7:38:34 AM

Sto:

Really?

Hmmm.

There are more Jewish Israelis than Danes?

20169. stostosto - 6/7/2001 7:59:39 AM

Rustler,

yep. You are a great people.

20170. stostosto - 6/7/2001 8:19:59 AM

Oh, and Rustler:

I might as well tell you lest you hear it from another source and think I am hiding something from you: Israel is very cross with Denmark right now. Relations are reportedly at an all-time low since 1948. The Israelis feel the Danish government is taking a one-sided view of the violence, blaming it all on the Israeli side.

It began when Sharon was elected and the Danish foreign minister, Mr Mogens Lykketoft, stated that "of course we cannot applaud a man with such a criminal record". Minor diplomatic crises. The Israeli ambassador protested at this gratuitous criticism of a democratically elected leader, and added that Mr Lykketoft was risking the destruction of the Danish legacy of helping the Jews during WWII. This was not well received; half-hinting that Lyketoft would have been on the Nazi side was seen by some as a rather insulting proposition. I should perhaps add that Lykketoft is considered more or less the mastermind of this Danish government since its taking office in 1993. But he is new in the capacity of Foreign Minister. He was an "iron fist" minister of finance until early this year. He also has a record of youthful leftism, (haven't they all? Germany's Joschka Fischer was a "stone-thrower", and France's PM Lionel Jospin has just commented on his Trotskyist past...) which at the time (1970s) included a certain element of sympathy with third world liberation movements, including the PLO.

(cont.)

20171. stostosto - 6/7/2001 8:32:02 AM

>>>

Whether this factors in is impossible to say, but when Arafat was here last week (as yours truly duly reported), he was very warmly received, according to the Israeli POV, and also too warmly. Hugging, kissing, etc.

Politically, our PM promised Arafat Danish backing for his proposal that EU observers be stationed in Israeli/WB/Gaza hotspots; a proposal that Israel is against and that the rest of the EU has turned down, at least for now. I reported Swedish PM's Göran Persson's dismissal of the idea on behalf of the EU which is presently chaired by Sweden. (Chairmanship rotates every six months).

Also, the Israelis noted angrily that the Danish PM insultingly snubbed the (aforementioned) Israeli ambassador when he was accompanying the Danish-Israeli Michael Melchior on a recent trip here. Mr Melchior is a junior minister in the present Israeli government.

Shimon Peres has aired the Israeli disappointment with Denmark, if in a carefully diplomatic tone.

The last thing that has caught Israeli ire was a comment by Mr Lykketoft that the suicide bombing in Tel Aviv "didn't change his view as to who is ultimately responsible for the violence".

Now, there's a row in the Danish parliament. The government is critisised from a parliamentary majority, and the foreign minister has been called to explain the Danish shift in policy towards Israel. This will take place next Wednesday, I believe.

[end report from Copenhagen].

20172. stostosto - 6/7/2001 8:35:51 AM

alistair:

I don't have your email address - it's not listed in the Cafe. If you don't want it publicised here, you can mail me at sto@privat.dk

20173. stostosto - 6/7/2001 8:42:08 AM

Oh, I forgot a significant detail: The Danish ambassador to Israel was called to a meeting in the Israeli foreign ministry where the Israelis voiced an unusual harsh criticism of Denmark.

And the Danish parliament's hearing of the foreign minister Mogens Lykketoft is tomorrow, not Wednesday as I said. Perhaps I will have something more on this tomorrow.

The general mood here is rather indifferent to all this, however.

20174. stostosto - 6/7/2001 8:43:44 AM

I am out of here for the next couple hours -- probably for today, in fact.

See you.

20175. Indiana Jones - 6/7/2001 10:21:16 AM

Democracy in action

Most recent polls gave Toledo an edge of 4 to 10 percentage points. But Torres said there is hidden support for Garcia from Peruvians ashamed to admit to pollsters that they are planning to vote for a man responsible for one of the most disastrous governments in Peru's history.

Garcia left Peru mired in surging guerrilla violence, 3,000 percent annual inflation and food shortages. But his charisma and ability to transmit hope to Peruvians, especially young voters who do not remember his government, have boosted his chances in the runoff....

Garcia denied charges he used lithium to control an alleged manic-depressive disorder. Toledo battled allegations that he pocketed campaign funds, abandoned an illegitimate daughter and used cocaine while romping with three prostitutes in 1998.

20176. marjoribanks - 6/7/2001 3:15:33 PM

As a kid growing up in India, i'm pretty sure that I only knew two Chinese names. There were Chinese classmates, and long-time Chinese residents manning shops along the Causeway, but they had notably un-Chinese names like Florence and Peter.

The two Chinese names were Mao (gleaned from somewhere or the other) and Huen Tsang. The last fellow was an icon in our early school textbooks, and repeatedly cited for his role in visiting India and taking Buddhism back with him. At least that's what I gathered at age 8 or so.

I'd pretty much forgotten about this name, and Huen Tsang, until yesterday when I ran across this fairly interesting book by veteran NY Times reporter Richard Bernstein.

I don't care for Bernstein's stuff in general, and I have a fairly strong, detailed, dislike for most of the NY Times foreign correspondents, but I spent a fairly enjoyable hour plus leafing through this book. It's nominally a journey in Tsang's footsteps (turns out, btw, he wasn't at all the man who took Buddhism to China), and also contains some quite touching ruminations of the authors till-then incomplete life (he makes the decision to marry his Chinese girl while on the trip), some telling passages on his Jewishness and upbringing, and then quite a lot on Buddhism.

20177. marjoribanks - 6/7/2001 3:24:58 PM

I already knew quite a lot of the bare bones of the history in the book, but thoroughly enjoyed and was intrigued by the fleshing-out. Most intriguing to me was the account of Kumarajiva, the accounts of the Kuchans and the Tocharians and other middle points of passage as Buddhism did move from India to China. Kumarajiva, who I'd only vaguely heard of, in particular comes out as a major world figure, a kind of giant in cultural relations.

The author kind of loses energy when his girlfriend leaves him to travel alone through much of India and Pakistan, his mood perceptibly grows irritable and he shows no patience or sympathy in these parts compared to his boundless enthusiasm in China. I appreciate the honesty in his reporting this, however, it is human and I grew to kind of like this fiftyish, fairly fastidious, man even as he loses his temper with the standoffish Maharajah of Benaras and complains about the degredation of the Ganges.

There is also, thread-regulars please note, a Yusufzai Pathan from Peshawar in the book, a man who proudly declaims his multilingual skills and traces some Pathan history, gilding the status of his tribe. So, guys, there's more than one such bloke.

All in all, it was an interesting book. I recommend it to those interested in such things. As such, it was a useful kind of appendix for me after reading Eraly's 'The Gem in the Lotus' which largely focuses on the birth and spread of Buddhism in India and the subcontinent.

20178. stostosto - 6/7/2001 4:10:32 PM

marj,

I think I read a review of that book, probably in The Economist. The reviewer was annoyed by the personal stuff.

20179. Andonly - 6/7/2001 9:39:08 PM

"Sting's vocal's are shown for the 5th rate rubbish they really are, every time Cheb Mami-habibi opens his glorious mouth!"

Truer words have never been typed. "Sting" (I feel compelled to use quotation marks--what kind of idiot calls himself "Sting"?) is a banal, drippy misogynist.

Forunately for him, flogging that formula around the globe proves to be lucrative.

*****

I want to purchase an Um Kalthoum CD. However, there are several available and I don't know which one to buy. Any recommendations appreciated.

I've discovered two Israeli singers of what must be labelled pop-liturgical melodies whose stuff is pleasant though (mostly) un-danceable: "Shirona", and "Bat-Ella". The latter, I think, might have been somewhat popular years ago... I've heard her on the radio or in a movie or something.

20180. Andonly - 6/7/2001 10:16:05 PM

Ha! Just purchased The History and Geography of Human Genes, new but for a small remainder mark, for all of $14.44 including shipping, via Amazon.

20181. RustlerPike - 6/8/2001 5:10:03 AM

sto:

Can I send you on a mission? It would involve throwing a pie in someone's face.

You could say you received orders from a bearded Jew you've never met or spoken to. I'm sure they'd take you straight to the looney bin and you wouldn't have to fear being jailed at all.

So what is it about the Danish government which would make it more pro-pimpleyass Arafat than, say, the Swedes? There must be a reason.

Also: who is this Shirona? I've never heard of her other than on the Mote.

20182. stostosto - 6/8/2001 5:56:57 AM

Rustler,

So what is it about the Danish government which would make it more pro-pimpleyass Arafat than, say, the Swedes? There must be a reason.

There is only one reason, I think: Mr Mogens Lykketoft. He is a brilliant man, an accomplished power broker and skilfull political navigator. He is arguably, as I said, the mastermind behind the present government (long, intriguing story), and he is one of the most bitterly resented top politicians. He is used to being unpopular. He is also used to being right, and, one might say, eventually vindicated. The Danish economy was in a perpetual mess for several decades until the 'Lykketoft' era. Since that time, almost every economic indicator has improved, and the economy is quite resilient. Now, Mr Lykketoft was far from the only factor in this. But he can reasonably claim some credit.

Thriving in the face of unpopularity, being used to rely more on one's own analysis than that of others, being used to be proven right, even harbouring a certain arrogance: These may be very valuable traits in a minister of finance who has to ram through unpopular reform measures.

But they are less beneficial, if not outright unfortunate, in a foreign minister. And that may be my take on things: Mr Lykketoft is opinionated and a little too arrogant for foreign policy.

Or, he has some cunning plan... The next logical career step for a man of his position and ambitions is some international top job: EU, OECD, UN, OSCE, World Bank, something. Perhaps he is advertising himself to the right people?

Although I must say I don't really see him as a guy who is in it for personal gain. He probably genuinely resents Sharon.

I have to go, but I'll see if I can dig up a photo of Mr Lykketoft. He looks quite a card.

20183. stostosto - 6/8/2001 6:15:08 AM

Mogens Lykketoft, Danish foreign minister

20184. stostosto - 6/8/2001 6:23:30 AM

But, Rustler, before we go overboard in frothing rage at Mr Lykketoft (I am prone to such, you know that), it should be noted that nothing has actually been changed in the Danish foreign policy which is in line with the EU, with the UN, even with the USA. It's largely a question of rhetoric.

Mr Lykketoft did express shock and indignation at the Tel Aviv bombing and promptly sent an official telegram of sympathy and condolence to the Israeli government. He, and the Danish government and Parliament, has also consistently called on the Palestinian Authority and Arafat to stop the terror actions, and reign in the terrorists.

He has said, however, that Israel is the stronger part in the conflict, and that it's difficult to see what could be demanded of the Palestinians since they haven't got anything to give.

Jerusalem Post reported yesterday on the Danish-Israeli row, alleging that Mr Lykketoft has called for EU economic sanctions against Israel. This isn't accurate. He has called for produce from the occupied areas not to be labelled Israeli products which confers on them a special advantageous status in the current trade regime between EU and Israel.

I'll see if I can find the Jerusalem Post bit.

20185. stostosto - 6/8/2001 6:44:16 AM

A summary of the Jerusalem Post article is here. JP charges $2 for the full article. Bugger.

The framing of that article screams to high heaven, though.

"Melchior: Europe's pro-Palestinian stand due to guilt over Holocaust "

Melchior is a Danish born junior minister and former chief rabbi of Norway, I think. He is out of well-known Danish Jewish family. Thus, there was a Danish chief rabbi called Bent Melchior whom I think is his uncle, or, perhaps father. Bent's brother, Arne, is a prominent politician and former several times government minister.

As such, I can only surmise that Melchior's remark on the European "guilt" is taken out of context. Because in Denmark there is absolutely no guilt over the Holocaust.

The Danish rescue operation of the Jews is a matter of some pride, as is the fact that no Jewish property was laid hand on during their exile in Sweden. And there is no doubt that Melchior is aware of this.

Danes were not very heroic during WWII, but it can't in any way be said that Danes were complicit in the Holocaust.

20186. Indiana Jones - 6/8/2001 9:02:44 AM

The New Unilateralism


With ABM and Kyoto, the new unilateralism is earning notice. It began with a great gnashing of teeth by our allies: Nations that spent the better part of the last 500 years raping and pillaging vast swaths of the globe now pronounce themselves distressed at the arrogance of the United States for refusing, at the height of its power, to play the docile international citizen.

20187. stostosto - 6/8/2001 10:22:49 AM

Are the Irish playing Nice, or are they the new Danes of Europe?

'No' campaign makes gains in Irish EU referendum

The Nice Treaty, cumbersomely put together in December, must be ratified by all EU member countries to be in effect.

An Irish no will likely cause enough trouble that the process of enlargement will be held back.

How idiotic.

20188. stostosto - 6/8/2001 10:23:57 AM

UK: Blair won, only 60% bothered to vote, Hague steps down. (Yawn).

20189. Ronski - 6/8/2001 11:24:02 AM

I see the UK's Liberal Democrats (I think that's what they're calling themselves these days) did rather well for a change.

20190. Ronski - 6/8/2001 11:45:59 AM

Some interesting stuff here:

Middle East Media and Research Institute

20191. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 3:04:43 PM

That link looks like a good resource, Ronski. Maybe the hosts will link it in permanently, certainly it looks like the best source for Al-Jazeera's often-provocative reports.

-----


All,

Due to the outpouring of interest in this thread about the ongoing Nepali soap opera, I hasten to bring you pictures of the main involved parties.

Here's the tubby Etonian who offed his family in a drunken rage over familial disapproval of his intended:

20192. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 3:08:08 PM

And here's the object of forbidden love, now in mourning somewhere in India:

20193. Ronski - 6/8/2001 3:10:21 PM

What was wrong with her, anyway?

20194. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 3:11:38 PM

And, for no particular reason, here's a picture of an eyewitness giving his account of what happened:



What pisses Nepalis off no end is that this account portrays neer-do-well Prince Paras (cousin of the killer prince, and son of the present King) as a hero. This is the fellow who (1) got drunk with the killer prince before the incident and (2) has slain at least 4 people in drunk driving accidents in the past few years.

20195. Ronski - 6/8/2001 3:14:33 PM

I'll bet they have some really winding roads.

20196. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 3:16:13 PM

Ronski,

She's cuter (I think) than that picture shows. The other photos I've seen depict a really elegant and lovely young woman.

The problem is that she's from a branch of the Rana family that has been rivals with the royal line for centuries, and that she's half-Indian (her mother is from the Gwalior ruling family). The killer prince's mom is from the other faction of the Rana family, and opposed (vehemently) the marriage on the ground that the Maoist rebels and others in Nepal would immediately consider the marriage suspect because of a suspected sympathy for India and also because those particular Ranas were all bad.

I'm interested to see a picture of the Queen-approved bride that was selected for the killer Prince. I suspect that that image will tell us pretty much all we need to know.

20197. Ronski - 6/8/2001 3:18:32 PM

I suppose the gobbling up of Sikkim years ago didn't ease anybody's suspicions about India, either.

20198. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 3:18:42 PM

Kathmandu (lovely little valley city, in my opinion) is jammed with dark crowded narrow streets. A drunk driver speeding home at night is pretty much shooting fish in a barrel. It's a surprise the dude's only killed four times if he's what he's portrayed to be.

20199. marjoribanks - 6/8/2001 3:33:19 PM

I don't think Nepal is particularly concerned about a Sikkim-style event. Nepalis resent Indians kind of like Canada resents the US. Plus, all supplies to Nepal pretty much come in on roads from India (though there is that China highway) so there is some wariness.


FWIW, Nepal has become a major staging ground for proxy eye-poking by India and Pakistan. I have no idea of whether it is true, but the Indian government now routinely claims that Pakistan's ISI is entrenched in Nepal. What is true is that the crime factions in India have moved into Nepal in a big way, with the bosses sitting in Kathmandu and pulling their minions strings from afar.

Kathmandu is an odd city, by the way. Some great architectural beauty, a touristy cafe district unparalelled in South Asia, and then a typical subcontinental overgrown warren where most people live.

20200. Andonly - 6/8/2001 4:19:45 PM

Sto: "He has said, however, that Israel is the stronger part[y] in the conflict, and that it's difficult to see what could be demanded of the Palestinians since they haven't got anything to give."

The pretense of helplessness pays. But someday perhaps Palestinians will discover as Jews did that other people's pity is poverty wages.

Better to stop throwing rocks, cease exploding themselves in crowded places, start educating their poor, brainwashed youth to want peace, and build a damn country on what's left of the west Bank and Gaza. Were they unilaterally to declare an end to the conflict between themselves and Israel, draw up a peace treaty, and keep to it, the hardliners in Israel would be delegitimized instantly. Inside 20 years, the Palesinians would probably have Jerusalem in every sense that counts.

By the way, I hate to say it, but I'm liking Sharon more as time goes by.

Ronski's MEMRI link in Message # 20190 has a gruesomely fascinating exchange between Arabs arguing on a talk show on al-Jazeera broadcast out of (I think) Qatar, on the subject of whether Zionism is as bad as Naziism or worse. The moderator eventually shouts down the lone dissenter, an intellectual whose point that Holocaust denial is not only "garbage" but political suicide is vitriolically opposed by a woman who believes the Palestinian cause is best served by attacking Israel and the US "psychologically". By this she means that Arabs must insist loudly and often on the "truth": that the Holocaust never ocurred, and in fact that the "real Holocaust" is being perpetrated now by Israel against Arabs.

20201. Andonly - 6/8/2001 4:23:00 PM

Thanks for the Nepal info, Banks.

20202. Andonly - 6/8/2001 4:49:23 PM

Oh yeah, RustlerPike: the only reason you've heard of Shirona at all is because, some time ago, I asked if you had ever heard of her. It seems no one has, but if you're curious go here. Scroll down past the (sigh) Cantor Wally Songbook and the other sure dreck to the tenth item, which is the mysteriously named "Shirona: Judaic Love Songs". Click on the three samples to get a sense of what she sounds like.

I find her CD seems less like love songs than, as mentioned, pleasant liturgical pop tunes. Some of it could work as incidental music for an improved cinematic treatment of the Exodus or something. One or two songs come off simply as folk ditties.

The musical arrangements are a bit dull-witted, but Shirona herself has a lovely voice, a number of the songs are quite pretty, and none are actually annoying.

By the way, from the same retailer linked above I found a tape of Israeli folk songs that only contains one true dud ("Shoshana", which I guess sounds like an even more insipid version of "How Much is that Doggy in the Window"--yes, it's possible). Seems this goofy Murcan couple toured Israel collecting folk music, then put together their renditions in this small, uncontrived anthology. They do okay, including a nice version of "Yerushalyim shel Zahav".

20203. stostosto - 6/8/2001 8:34:24 PM

The Big Row over Danish foreign policy has been defused.

The government says it hasn't changed its policy towards Israel and the Palestinians, and it denies that it didn't urge Arafat to stop the violence at his recent stop-over in Copenhagen.

Thus, everybody agrees on policy, there isn't even disagreement over which words was said to Arafat as opposed what should have been said. Not even the much publicised promise by the PM to Arafat regarding EU observators was acknowledged as such by the government. It says that this would be conditioned on an agreement by both parties.

But the opposition maintains that the government (PM and foreign minister) somehow created an impression of a policy change, there were mixed signals etc.

So what's left? The Israelis think they picked up some worrying signals and made a fuss. This made the Danish opposition critisise the government. But it turns out the 'wrong' signals weren't really there. And that they weren't in any case intended.

Is the Danish government lying? Well, it's easy to document what was said at the meetings and press conferences, and the government duly produced tape transcripts.

Is it clumsy, then? Or are the Israelis hyper-sensitive? I'd say probably both.

20204. khaval alazman - 6/8/2001 11:26:15 PM

Andonly: I love Umm Kulthum's voice, but I am no expert on her stuff. I actually find Egyptian music a little bit alien and much prefer Maghrebi, Yemenite, and some Levantine stuff. This all, of course, a matter of familiarity.

As for Shirona, I have never heard of her. Nor have I heard of Bat Ella (crazily cool name, thhough - I'll put money on it's being a Fitzgerald reference).

I was also brought up with "zionist Top 40" -those folk song standards of the nation and Kibbutz movement. I don't know if I could stomach hearing them sung in an AMerican accent.

Shoshana *is* an annoying song, but it's very much part of the cannon.

My vote for best folk song is Erev Shel SHoshanim.

I'm a candidate for World's Worst Guitar Player, but I can play just about every Israeli folk song. It was mandatory to be able to do this during youth movement life.

Also, our youth movement used to put on these MASSIVE concerts annually (we were the biggest movement in Melbourne back in my day). Anyway, an integral part of these concerts was the movement choir.

So, when I was 16, and I got to organise the choir for that year, I gathered the best of the truly VAST number of musicians in the movement (we were also known for our musicality), and we decided to arrange the songs to maximise harmonies and minimise accompaniment.

We also used very strange and wonderful harmonies. At the time, I was obsessed with Bulgarian choral music, and the beautiful arrangements of their a capella songs.

We sang Erev Shel Shoshanim, and another couple of songs I can't remember, in this vein. Really amazing.

Another thing I like to do for a bit of fun on the guitar and singing, is a funkification of the Pesackh Seder songs - particularly Ve-hi she'amda and Ha'Lakhma. All notes are bluesed with original melody as the basis, and there is a slightly dfferent rythmn. Really fun, and it sounds quite good.

20205. khaval alazman - 6/8/2001 11:28:41 PM

WOW! and AWESOME! Khatemi has won between 80% and 90% of the vote in exit polls. His platform is one of further reform and this election has not been about whether he would win (this was a foregone conclusion), but whetherh e could accrue the requisite mandate to push through his agenda in the Majlis with a little interference from the ulema as possible.

Whoo hoo.

20206. stostosto - 6/9/2001 3:42:49 AM

80-90%!!!

That should tell the mullahs something.

20207. khaval alazman - 6/9/2001 4:19:30 AM

Those are just the exit polls, though - sto. But the majority is going to be massive, whatever the final count. It's mandate material.

20208. RustlerPike - 6/9/2001 10:17:24 AM

Ceasefire continues.

It seems like a matter of a week or two tops before a serious terror attack provides the excuse for Sharon's launching his offensive. Not that anyone really believes that'll solve anything.

Well, maybe some people do. I don't.

But it'll be nice seeing the F-16s in action again. Hope he does that again. If not them - maybe artillery?

20209. RustlerPike - 6/9/2001 10:50:06 AM

You guys don't appreciate me enough, you know? I told you about Or Adom, right? The action group on police brutality I founded when I was a 23 year old journalist? Do you know that we seem to have been very influential in bringing about the establishment of mahash - the branch of the Ministry of Justice which investigates offenses by policemen? (these had previously previously investigated by other policemen - with the expected results).

Do you realize that were it not for mahash Israel's police would probably have been much more trigger-happy in October than they were? Do you realize this could have caused there to be 50 or 100 killed instead of 13? I mean - history would have been different.

20210. RosettaStone - 6/9/2001 11:10:46 AM

One can't be but impressed by Sharon by his honesty. Unusual in a politician.

And his willing to keep up the ceasefire until Arafat screws up again.

20211. Andonly - 6/9/2001 12:33:44 PM

"I actually find Egyptian music a little bit alien and much prefer Maghrebi, Yemenite, and some Levantine stuff."

Direct me to some, if you please. What is alien often appeals to me (although I loathe virtually all rap and am indifferent-to-hostile to most hip hop). For instance, I find Vietnamese pop music appealing despite its silliness. Not that I would ever buy any; I would buy Um Kalthoum.

Actually, maybe the problem is that Vietnamese pop music isn't all that alien...

"As for Shirona, I have never heard of her."

Independent label. Go to the link above to hear what she sounds like.

"Nor have I heard of Bat Ella (crazily cool name, thhough - I'll put money on it's being a Fitzgerald reference)."

I dunno. The woman's name is Bat-Ella Birnbaum. Maybe her parents were being clever?

"I was also brought up with "zionist Top 40" - those folk song standards of the nation and Kibbutz movement. I don't know if I could stomach hearing them sung in an AMerican accent."

Hebrew is awflly mangled in the US. (One of the myriad reasons I usually avoid going to synagogue.) Fortunately, this little tape I bought isn't too bad. It's a husband and wife duo, Lori and Joel Abramson, and she's pretty tolerable. It's only when he comes in from out of the background vocals on one song that I want to scream. Fully as painful as when my English-born, goyische husband utters the word "Shabbos" or, well, the name of any Jewish holiday at all. (Frankly, I'm sure I'm only slightly less egregious myself.)

20212. Andonly - 6/9/2001 12:33:59 PM

"Shoshana *is* an annoying song, but it's very much part of the cannon. My vote for best folk song is Erev Shel SHoshanim."

That one I don't think I know.

The Abramsons' collection consists of: Kum v'Hithalech Ba'aretz, Shir Ha'emek, Gan Hashikmim, Shiri Li Kineret, LaMidbar, Ein Gedi, Shoshana, Bab El Wad, and Yerushalayim shel Zahav. So obviously, there is another folk song out there that could have been substituted for the dreadful Shoshana.

20213. Andonly - 6/9/2001 12:47:50 PM

Re Iran, I don't know why you guys are surprised at the 80-90% vote in favor of Khatami. What I'm curious about is what percentage of the population voted.

20214. RustlerPike - 6/9/2001 1:15:51 PM

Shirona actually has an impressive voice.

Still, that link you gave really reminds me of how pathetic American Judaism is. Rabbi Herschel and Cantor Joel.

20215. Andonly - 6/9/2001 1:16:59 PM

Rustler,

There's an Israeli I talk to from time to time at the supermarket--he has a booth there, where he sells mobile phones: a very honest, no-bullshit guy. His name is Yonah, he's alone here in the States, all his family are in Beit HaTikva.

The other day I asked him what he thought of Sharon's policy of restraint. Would it work? He shrugged. "Nothing's going to work." Then he rethought that. "Maybe separation, them in the east, us in the west. We'd annex the closest settlements, the more distant settlers could leave Palestinian territory and resettle in Israel."

Isn't that what Barak offered Arafat, what Arafat walked away from?, I asked. Yonah almost made a face at the mention of Arafat's name. "Barak was very smart," he said, "His purpose was to unmask Arafat. He was always against the Oslo accords." I said I heartily agreed with him on that point, but asked whether he thought separation was really possible. "Sure," he said "That's how it was before '67. We'd have to guard the border, just like with Syria, but--", and he shrugged again. Yeah, but what about Jerusalem, I asked.

"Jerusalem," he sighed, "That's a problem."

Now, Pike, you've said before that separation is impossible, that Palestinians and Israelis are living practically on top of each other, as things are. I've heard other Israelis tout separation as the cure for both peoples' ills. I'm skeptical, myself, for a variety of reasons. But not entirely--it's a quasi-solution I would like to believe in, as it seems not a lot less ridiculous that the possibility of peace itself.

I'm interested to know your opinion about this in some depth, if you've thought about it.

20216. Andonly - 6/9/2001 1:22:38 PM

"Still, that link you gave really reminds me of how pathetic American Judaism is. Rabbi Herschel and Cantor Joel."

Don't forget Rabbi Joe Black.

Judaism here is indeed debased, to a large extent. There are exceptions, of course, to be found among the Orthodox, the Reconstructionists, and possibly a negligibly tiny movement located almost entirely in NY, called Humanistic Judaism. (I think they're mostly atheists.)

20217. PelleNilsson - 6/9/2001 3:38:46 PM

We need to retroactively celebrate events of the 6th of June.

First naturally Denmark's magnificient, heroic victory by 2-1 over Malta at home.

(On the same day Sweden beat another giant of football, Moldavia, by 6-0)

Second we have the Swedish National Day.



The picture shows the greater state arms of Sweden.

The occasion of the national day is the coronation on 6th June, 1523, of Gustav Vasa, the fellow who liberated Sweden from the Danish tyranny and "the father of Sweden".

Our national day is a 20th century invention. Its celebration is characterised by a marked lack of enthusiasm.

20218. JudithAtHome - 6/9/2001 4:21:01 PM

Sounds like a lot of our holidays....except, of course, the ones devoted to making money.

20219. jexster - 6/9/2001 4:21:28 PM

Pelle..I had the great good fortune of taking a seminar last semester with a fellow student who's an exchange scholar from Copenhagen.

It being a political science course we naturally discussed political and social difference between the US and you Norsemen leaving me ever more convinced that when Condo Rice yaps about there being no "values gap" between the US and its increasingly estranged Euro friends, that she is either very dumb or very disingenuous.

How say you about this emerging rift?

20220. jexster - 6/9/2001 4:22:16 PM

God Save Gustav!

20221. RustlerPike - 6/10/2001 1:39:08 AM

I think Israel needs a monarchy and a coat-of-arms too. They're so -impressive and respectable-like!

Ando:

I'm interested to know your opinion about this in some depth, if you've thought about it.

Well thanks for the question, first of all. I'm flattered.

I've said it a lot of times but I'll say it again: this is not a conflict between two nations over a homeland. If it were that, it would have been solved in a compromise along the Camp David lines. This is Israel wanting to survive on the one hand (and thus always being willing to compromise over land) and the radical elements in the Arab world (led by Nasser in the past, and Saddam Hussein in the present) which are using the Pal problem to further their admitted aim - the annihilation of Israel, which they view as an unacceptable foreign presence on their turf.

There is no 'total' solution that does not involve a very big war in the Mideast and millions of dead people (hopefully, from my pov, Arabs). As an interim solution - since this conflict will go on for quite a while to come - Israel needs defensible borders. The only defensible border I can see east of me is the Jordan River. My conclusion is: throw the WB&G Pals into Jordan (ugly - but not too difficult to do) and let them topple Abdullah. Then we carry on the fight from there: it'll be a lot like the situation on the Lebanese border.

As for international intervention, Bosnia style: if we're tough enough and admant enough, I don't see a problem there.

20222. RustlerPike - 6/10/2001 10:13:38 AM

They seemed to have discovered Heliopolis. I think.

20223. Andonly - 6/10/2001 12:58:33 PM

Thank you, RP.

Link to Heliopolis material?

******

From Ha'aretz:

In his round of security contacts, CIA director George Tenet submitted to PA and Israeli officials a document outlining a cease-fire arrangement conducive to a renewal of diplomatic talks in another few weeks. Tenet submitted the document, called "a menu for a cease-fire" during a Friday meeting in Ramallah at which Israel was represented by Mossad chief Ephraim Halevy, Shin Bet head Avi Dichter, and top IDF officers.

Beyond the call for an immediate cessation of violence, leading features in Tenet's plan include:

* Redeployment of IDF troops to positions they held before September 28, 2000 (when violence first erupted).

* Removal of closures enforced by Israel.

* Arrest of 20 to 30 Hamas and Islamic Jihad men who have been involved in terror by the PA

* An end to anti-Israel incitement in PA and confiscation of mortars and other illegal firearms.

Friday's Tenet-mediated security contact in Ramallah between the Israeli security officials and PA counterparts ended without tangible results, but the sides agreed to meet again soon.

After the Ramallah meeting, Jibril Rajoub, head of PA preventive security on the West Bank, said the PA has no intention of arresting Hamas and Islamic Jihad operatives, and that it has not been asked to do so.

Interviewed by Palestine Radio, Rajoub said that the arrest issue "didn't come up at the meeting." The demand to arrest a list of suspected terrorists, Rajoub added, "exists only in the Israelis' heads.".

20224. khaval alazman - 6/10/2001 1:07:30 PM

Fuck!

I normally love the BBC, and am truly addicted to it.

But just now, there was a segment on the funerals of the slain Palestinian women.

They played a short clip of Palestinians screaming and chanting, but neglected to say *what* they were chanting. There was only reference to "the angry mourners".

What were they chanting?

"Itbah el Yahud" Kill the Jews.

Tell me, if this sort of shit were chanted about the Palestinians by the Jews at one of the funerals of their dead, you think there wouldn't be a translation?

No no. Instead, we get a documentary segment on the Jewish Settlers (why not choose our nuttiest representatives and villify us wholesale?) - ALL of them speaking their craziness in crisp English... just so the world can get a fair idea of how crazy the Jews really are.

Fuck.

I can't turn it off either!

20225. Uzmakk - 6/10/2001 5:42:07 PM

My Dear Pike:

I was going to make this a private e-mail, but have decided that posting it on the Mote will lose me nothing. Now ever since you kidded that you did macrame, the reality being, ofcourse , that you were a far more serious fellow than that, I have had this image, this phrase in my mind that you are the Lord High Macramist of the State of Israel. Nothing could be further from the truth, ofcourse. Nevertheless, the phrase endures. Now, I attended the PA Renaissanse Festival last summer and I was attracted to a band (I tell you, I could be walking the barren waste of North Dakota, the man I would meet would be a Jew, and I would like him) called Gypsophia. Ofcourse, they called themselves Gypsophilia so that they can play the music that they like. I complimented the brother who played a squeeze box with his head placed directly between the violin played by one sister and the cello played by the other. I mentioned Gypsy music, I mentioned Bela Babai, I mentioned the soulfull sound that his sister played from the violin. They were all very pleased. I got all the jokes. A Jewish Connection. Oh, yes. Often, while they played , between songs, he would shout out, "More Chewisih Music". At any rate, Pike, I had quite a good time.

Show some interest and ask me to go on.

20226. sakonige - 6/10/2001 10:22:52 PM

In all the videos I've seen of Khatami's re-election, he wears a black robe with only his right arm through the sleeve.



Does anyone know, is that an Iranian custom or is it just him? Does the robe even have a left sleeve?

Another Iranian fashion I noticed in Iranian video journalism is the same kind of black-and-white checked scarfs I've never seen anyone but Palestinians wear.

20227. Andonly - 6/10/2001 11:50:49 PM

What were they chanting? "Itbah el Yahud" Kill the Jews.

Yeah, and every discussion forum and half the letters to editors here in The Great Satan are also full of the wisdom of righteously liberal anglos unencumbered by any knowledge of Arab language, and completely incurious about the content of their preferential victims' speech.

Back at the ranch, an Arab MK, one Dr. Bishara, has just returned from Syria, where at a memorial for the Butcher of Hama he stood proudly with Hizzy's Hassan Nasrullah, Syrian officials, and Hamas and Islamic Jihad operatives, and urged enemy Arab nations to oppose HIS OWN COUNTRY's efforts toward a settlement.

Sheik Nasrullah obligingly pledged to keep up Hizbullah's resistance and said jihad warriors would pray to regain ALL OF JERUSALEM. Then Bishara returned home to his constituency... and the long overdue threat of legal action for his treachery.

I say, deport the fucker.

20228. Andonly - 6/10/2001 11:53:51 PM

"is that an Iranian custom or is it just him? Does the robe even have a left sleeve?"

Did Michael Jackson even have another glove?

It's a conundrum.

20229. khaval alazman - 6/11/2001 12:12:33 AM

How cute is Khatami? He looks awful happy. Mazal tov to him.

20230. RustlerPike - 6/11/2001 3:32:42 AM

Uzmakk:

Now, I attended the PA Renaissanse Festival last summer

Did you get to see Arafat? I didn't know the Palestinian Authority even had a Renaissance Festival.

Did Abu Ala play the lyre? Did Rajoub read some of his poetry? Did Ashrawi finish her tapestry?

OK, go on please. You are one of the more mysterious Moties out there, Uzmakk of the Steppes. It was awful, seeing this Aussie upstart fresh out of HS Debate Club mock your scrotum and other privates in the Inferno.

20231. RustlerPike - 6/11/2001 3:46:05 AM

When was it I asked for a terror attack on Mey Ami?

This comes pretty close (about 1 or 2 km., I'd say).

(08:10) Bomb blast near Border Police patrol in Umm el-Fahm

A large explosive device blew up alongside a road in the Wadi Ara town of Umm el-Fahm earlier this morning shortly after a border police patrol passed by.

There were no injuries in the incident.

The patrol was on the lookout for Palestinian workers illegally entering Israel.

The Israeli Arab community sits adjacent to the Green Line.

Police sappers are at the scene looking for other bombs and attempting to clarify the circumstances behind the blast, Israel Radio said.

Thanks guys. Though I was hoping you'd knife someone. Maybe next time.

20232. PelleNilsson - 6/11/2001 4:51:00 AM

jexster

You said:

It being a political science course we naturally discussed political and social difference between the US and you Norsemen leaving me ever more convinced that when Condo Rice yaps about there being no "values gap" between the US and its increasingly estranged Euro friends, that she is either very dumb or very disingenuous.

How say you about this emerging rift?

This is a tall order. I think that on things like democratic values, human rights and the rule of law there are very few differences.

In international politics Europeans are upset by what they see as US arrogance and fear that it will break away from the Atlantic alliance, the web of international treaties and the UN system to go into an orbit of its own guided solely by its perceived self-interest. I would guess Americans are upset by what they perceive as European cultural arrogance and are tired of the constant harping about the dangers of the spread of American pop culture and the American lifestyle.

When it comes to domestic politics there are some things to take note of. The political spectra are skewed. The centre of European politics lies somewhere left of centre in the American Democratic party. Europeans have certain difficulties in understanding Republican politics, possibly because the conflict between states' rights and the federal government has no real equivalent here. In Europe the term "liberal" means a middle-of-the-road bourgeois person who admires John Stuart Mill, not a dangerous left-winger. Finally, Europeans are far more ready to accept - and desire - that the government plays a big role in providing education, health care, day care and other societal services, not only by putting up the money, but also by running them.

20233. PelleNilsson - 6/11/2001 4:51:38 AM

As I'm sure you understand these are very broad generalisations. There are plenty of exceptions if you care to look for them. Europe is far less homogeneous than many Americans seem to think (and vice versa, I guess).

20234. PelleNilsson - 6/11/2001 4:52:40 AM

When re-reading the above I feel the need to apologise for the sloppy English.

20235. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 4:55:27 AM

I find no evidence of "sloppy English" and can only conclude you're fishing for compliments.

And your English prose deserves compliment.

20236. PelleNilsson - 6/11/2001 5:02:24 AM

Thank you. I was thinking about "... Europeans are upset by what they see as US arrogance and fear that..." It feels un-English in some undefinable way. Maybe "fearing that" would be better than "and fear that".

20237. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 5:04:56 AM

It may seem un-English to you but the construction is most American to me.

20238. alistairconnor - 6/11/2001 5:06:31 AM

possibly because the conflict between states' rights and the federal government has no real equivalent here.

Disagree... once Europe gets some sort of common defence and foreign policy sorted out, we'll have a federal system largely equivalent to that of the US. At first look, the diversity among UE members in terms of legislation, social and fiscal policy, etc is not greater than the diversity among US states. And they are tending to converge in the US, less so the USA.

Though it's true that we have nothing resembling pan-European political parties, equivalent to the Dems/Reps. Long may it remain so.

20239. alistairconnor - 6/11/2001 5:08:08 AM

Gaag... EU (European Union), not UE. EU, not US, following sentence.

20240. PelleNilsson - 6/11/2001 5:17:40 AM

It seems unlikely that we will have anything "largely equivalent" to the US in the short or medium term. That would require a big transformation from what we have now: an unelected commission and a parliament without any real teeth.

Perhaps the nearest current equivalent to the US is Spain?

20241. alistairconnor - 6/11/2001 5:54:12 AM

In practical terms, with respect to the integration of political organs and powers, Pelle, my point of view is that the degree of integration between the members of the EU is pretty much equivalent to the federation of US states. With the exception I noted of defence and foreign policy.

What you are talking about is the political space. The problem of the unelected commission and the toothless parliament, is the result of obfuscation by national governments, who prefer to preserve the completely unaccountable Council of ministers as the real centre of political power. Hence, the relative absence of conflict between the European and national levels.

20242. stostosto - 6/11/2001 8:03:02 AM

What a GOAL!

F.C. København Danish Champions!

I am wearing my F.C.K. jersey to work today.

Raaahhh!

20243. stostosto - 6/11/2001 10:43:52 AM

Pelle, that greater arms of Sweden or whatever is suspiciously like the Danish one:



And I believe our to great nations once fought a war over it - particularly the right to fly the three crowns. (Cue Pelle).

20244. pseudoerasmus - 6/11/2001 11:05:02 AM

Message # 20241

In practical terms, with respect to the integration of political organs and powers, Pelle, my point of view is that the degree of integration between the members of the EU is pretty much equivalent to the federation of US states. With the exception I noted of defence and foreign policy.

Rubbish.

It's nonsensical to suggest that the EU member states are as integrated as American states are except in defence & foreign policies.

EU member states still lack the "full faith & credit" system (where a law regnant in one country is fully recognised in another). And there is substantial de jure hindrance to mobility: a citizen of EU member states resident in an EU country not of his own, must still register with the local police and still obtain work permits. (The only exception to this rule is the UK.) And that person still does not qualify for healthcare and welfare benefits in his country of resident -- unless of course you're married to a national.

20245. pseudoerasmus - 6/11/2001 11:08:28 AM

Message # 22166 in thread 85

Quiz : in which of the two countries can civilisation be said to have advanced since 1981? And which one has regressed?

Naturally, as a supporter of capital punishment, I think the one regressing is France.

It's nice to know Alistair thinks 4-5 billion are uncivilised. Puts a new twist on old virtues.

20246. pseudoerasmus - 6/11/2001 11:25:56 AM

Correction: not work permit, but residence permit.

For example, if a UK citizen wishes to reside and work in France, he can't go there and begin working just like that. Except (I believe) in the case of Belgians in France, no citizen of an EU member state can obtain employment legally in a member state not his own, just by showing the national ID card from his home country.

In France he must first apply for something called a "carte de séjour de ressortissant de l'UE" at the local police station. And this is issued once you have provided a mountain of documents, including the "fiche d'état civil", which itself is issued once you have filed your birth certificate with the local prefecture of police and have also shown evidence that you physically reside at a fixed address (as opposed to being a vagrant).

And this residence permit must be renewed every few years.

20247. sakonige - 6/11/2001 11:31:12 AM

stostosto -

I'm kind of curious about the significance of the two cavemen wearing leaves and carrying clubs in the Danish state insignia. Do you know what they are supposed to stand for?

20248. sakonige - 6/11/2001 11:39:29 AM

I guess the coolest looking crown award goes to Nepal.

20249. arkymalarky - 6/11/2001 11:55:48 AM

somehow it's made even more comical by the guy underneath it.

20250. sakonige - 6/11/2001 12:11:37 PM

The plume is long, reaching his waistline. The crown makes quite a fashion statement.

20251. sakonige - 6/11/2001 12:15:37 PM

This morning I read that a Hindu ceremony to dispel ghosts was conducted at the palace in Kathmandu. A vegetarian Hindu priest riturally ate food containing bone marrow to absord the ghosts, then rode away into exile on an elephant taking the ghosts with him.

20252. sakonige - 6/11/2001 12:21:10 PM

I read that when the elephant ridden by the Hindu priest into exile was being brought to the palace, a silly woman in the crowd tried to walk under it, and the elephant grabbed her with its trunk and smashed her on the pavement, killing her.

20253. PelleNilsson - 6/11/2001 1:24:07 PM

sto

The alleged Danish arms of state is a joke, right? These cavemen (as Sakonige rightly calls them) are most un-heraldic.

The three crowns were a major irritant between Denamrk and Sweden. They were originally the arms of Mecklenburg and brought to the Nordic union by Albrecht of Mecklenburg. They now make up the lesser arms of Sweden.



They are carried by uniformed agents of state such as the police and the customs, and also by the Swedish ice hockey team (known as "Three Crowns") which will win the Olympics next year.

20254. PelleNilsson - 6/11/2001 2:21:14 PM

I just read the Economist's obituary over Faysal Husseini. I actually met him once, probably in 1987. We had gone over to Jerusalem to spend a few days. The Swedish Consul General there had been posted to Beirut 15 years earlier. We used to play bridge so I looked him up. It turned out that there was to be a reception for some visiting Swedish dignitary and he kindly invited us. As people queued up for the gravlax and the meatballs I found myself next to Husseini and we chatted along for a while as one does on these occassions. He struck me as the perfect Arab gentleman, a member of the aristocracy who was so confident of his own authority that he didn't need to display it.

20255. robertjayb - 6/11/2001 2:49:11 PM

PelleNilsson,

For lessons in sloppy English, wait until Thursday and the visit by the leader of the world's only superpower.

20256. PelleNilsson - 6/11/2001 4:39:07 PM

We are looking forward to hear Bushspeak directly from the horse's mouth.

20257. arkymalarky - 6/11/2001 4:42:30 PM

Wrong end.

20258. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 5:06:50 PM

Richard M. Daley, Mayor of the city of Chicago is, like his father His Honor before him, notoriously inept at public speaking and his gaffes, mispronunciations and malapropisms range from the ridiculous to the sublime, and yet this guy is one hell of a mayor to the third largest city in the US. Bush senior was a poor speaker as is his son, but I do present the most Reverend Jesse Jackson as one very accomplished and persuasive public speaker.

All of which trash reminds me of the calligraphy test for high officials in Imperial Japan and China. Well, at least they didn't have to answer to the public.

20259. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 5:08:30 PM

Richard M. Daley, Mayor of the city of Chicago is, like his father His Honor before him, notoriously inept at public speaking and his gaffes, mispronunciations and malapropisms range from the ridiculous to the sublime, and yet this guy is one hell of a mayor to the third largest city in the US. Bush senior was a poor speaker as is his son, but I do present the most Reverend Jesse Jackson as one very accomplished and persuasive public speaker.

All of which trash reminds me of the calligraphy test for high officials in Imperial Japan and China. Well, at least they didn't have to answer to the public.

20260. ScottLoar - 6/11/2001 5:09:35 PM

The second post is for those who didn't quite grasp the first.

20261. PsychProf - 6/11/2001 5:13:47 PM

It is far less sloppy.

20262. alistairconnor - 6/11/2001 5:36:46 PM

Message # 20246 pseudoerasmus, I have been told that professional qualifications in the US are recognised, as a rule, only in their state of origin, i.e. that a registered engineer or architect, for example, must re-register when he changes states. Perhaps this is a myth.

As for the fiche d'état civil, that has been abolished, so presumably with your German citizenship or whatever, you can now work in France with less hindrance.

20263. CalGal - 6/11/2001 6:07:04 PM

No, it's not professional qualifications per se, it's anything that requires state licensing. Law, medicine--in the case of engineering it would probably only be in construction? Not sure about architects, but it's probably the same.

I've heard that admission to some state bars is then admitted everywhere (California, I think, but am not sure).

It's certainly not anything like PE's description. I work in other states quite often, and consultants in many areas travel constantly from job to job.

20264. LohrM - 6/11/2001 6:57:44 PM

Certain qualifications travel-- academic degrees, for example. But not state licensing. I'll take the Bar where I graduated in late July, but because we're a civil law state, while I could practice is federal courts, I'd have to take the Bar for whatever state I move to. Some states have reciprocal recognition arrangements, and there's a Multi-State Bar Exam that's good for a number of states, but my own state treasures its anomalous status...so while I *could* get recognition from the Paris Bar with reasonably little effort, I'd have to jump through numerous hoops to be admitted to the Bar in, say,Texas or California...

The difficulties politicians have with public speaking rarely bothers me. Very damn' few people can be eloquent or witty in front of microphones. I seem to recall the factoid that more people are afraid of public speaking than of sudden, violent death.

20265. Rama - 6/11/2001 7:00:04 PM

Do we have more than one civil law state?

20266. LohrM - 6/11/2001 7:06:51 PM

nope... just the one...plus Puerto Rico.

20267. jexster - 6/11/2001 7:39:27 PM

Yes Pelle, that makes some sense. I also got a heavy dose from Ms. Copenhagen about Euros being abit baffled by American religiosity and sex fixation in their moral values.

You give voice or strokes to much of what I have noticed that there is a disconnect, perhaps greater than we have ever witnessed post war between Euro politics and US on substance. These are "domestic" issue gaps with the Germans, Brits, French and I suppose the Norsemen being far more comfortable with the views of the Democratic Party than the Republican.

However, because Euro and the US are so close culturally, politically, militarily the international/domestic lines blur somewhat. Thus a great deal of interest in McVeigh, in the environmental debates, in US drug policies, stuff like that, issues that say an African state could care less about....

20268. ilyavinarsky - 6/11/2001 9:18:49 PM

Is our resident Pinochetisto reading this? A recent Russian magazine has an article claiming that Pinochet's rule ruined the economy and destroyed the social fabric in Chile. You read Russian; don't you? Is the gist of the article true or false?

20269. pseudoerasmus - 6/12/2001 1:19:49 AM

The word is Pinochetista.

It's basically a worthless article. I'll focus on the first part, which deals with the economics. The second part is the usual boring litany of charges about executions and tortures, although the charge that the Pinochet regime persecuted Jews is a novel one.

Basically, the article mistakes the assertion that Pinochet is largely responsible for the Chilean economic miracle of the 1990s, for an assertion that his actual tenure (1973-89) was characterised by a booming economy.

Pinochet's rule was characterised by a savage and painful economic restructuring. Allende had saddled Chile with 600% inflation and fiscal imbalances equivalent to 30% of GDP. I don't think there was much that could be done but deliberately plunge Chile into a depression -- which Pinochet rather callously did. One could argue that Pinochet made many mistakes along the way and was callous about the social consequences of his actions, but it's difficult to question that he had to do what he did.

The 1982-83 recession was international and you could hardly blame Pinochet (or anyone else, other than Paul Volcker) for it.

In sum, Pinochet did what was necessary, even if he spent 5-8 years longer doing it than what it might, in retrospect, be deemed necessary.

20270. pseudoerasmus - 6/12/2001 1:21:38 AM

And the results are good. It was Pinochet who wrung the hyperinflation and hyperinflationary expectations out of the Chilean economy. It was Pinochet which returned Chile to sound finance, fiscal and external. It was Pinochet which returned Chile to exchange rate stability. It was Pinochet who took Chile from being a net importer of agricultural goods to a net exporter. It was Pinochet who transformed Chile from an exporter of unrefined copper to a diversified exporter of refined and unrefined copper, agricultural goods and light-manufactured products. It was under Pinochet that the private savings rate rose from a mere 3-4% in the late 1960s and early 1970s, to almost East Asian-levels (11-12%) by the end of the 1980s.

I'd say he laid the foundations for the economic boom of the 1990s and this decade.

20271. pseudoerasmus - 6/12/2001 1:25:14 AM

Now, to some of the specific points in the article:

"....shto on eschyo v aprele 1972 g. byl poctavlen TsRU CShA v izvectnoct' ob osyschestvlenin plana po 'sozdaniyu nepreodolimykh ekonomycheskikh trudnostey' dlya pravitel'stva Allende....."

Jesus, not this again. It was hyperinflation which destroyed Allende's regime. I wonder how the CIA is supposed to have created hyperinflation. Maybe they had safehouses all over Chile which printed counterfeit banknotes.

"Odnako posle voennogo oerevorota 11 sentyabrya 1973 g. ekonomika Chili prosto stala razvalivat'cya."

And then he goes on and on about sky-high unemployment rates, fall income, wages, etc. But it was all deliberate!!!

"S 1976-go nachal bystro rasti vneshniy dolg -- pytayas' kak-to spasti ekonomiku, khunta pribegla massipovanniym bneshnim zaimstvovaniyam.

This is true, but the country also became better able to service those debts (unlike other Latin American countries) because the country's export capacity rose.

30-protsentnaya bezrabotitsa davala vozmozhnost' zarubezhnomy rabotodatelyu polychat' kvalifitsirobannuyu i ochen' deshevuyu rabochuyu silu.

This article is like a catalogue of myths. Yes, I suppose falling wages could be thought a boon for multinationals interested in cheap labour, but Chile's export industries remain largely Chilean, not foreign-owned. And wages returned to pre-recession levels with each recovery, such that the average wage level under Pinochet was actually higher than under Allende. Finally, ITT owned hotels and the telephone company in Chile. Does anyone seriously think that a major recession was good for the hotel and telephone businesses?

20272. pseudoerasmus - 6/12/2001 1:26:44 AM

There are several mentions of infant mortality and life expectancy in the article. They are simply wrong. All throughout Pinochet's regime, infant mortality rates kept falling and life expectancy kept rising. This has probably nothing to do with Pinochet, and is rather a function of technology.

Also, the destruction of the middle class that the author talks about several times is just hysterical. Chile's economy during Pinochet twice had savage and profound but very brief busts. In 1974-75, the economy collapsed and unemployment soared to 30%, but the rest of the decade until 1981-2 was spent recovering rapidly and regaining lost ground. The pattern was repeated after 1981-82. (See here: www.geocities.com/bucephalus/tablesgraphs/chile_bus_cycle.JPG.)

All the same, the middle-class did not suffer from long-term immiseration, and this is borne out in the income distribution data on Chile. The middle classes suffered the most, but their share of national income has not shrunk all that much.

20273. ilyavinarsky - 6/12/2001 2:13:35 AM

So the article is lying when it comes to vital statistics such as infant mortality (it says that Chilean infant mortality in 1977 was twice the 1973 level). I wonder whether its other claims are true: that in 1973 anti-government terrorists were destroying Chile's infrastructure: bridges, oil pipelines, power substation etc. to the tune of 30-50 diversions a day, thus ruining 50% of the fruit and vegetable harvest, among other things; that in 1989 22.6% of the population lived in "absolute poverty" vs. 8.4% in 1969, that the average economic growth in 1973-1989 was negative 3.9% etc.

20274. pseudoerasmus - 6/12/2001 3:00:08 AM

It would take forever to go through all the nonsensical allegations in that article. But the specific claims you mention are hallucinated -- except for the poverty figures. There was a rapid and sustained rise in poverty in Chile, but not in "absolute" poverty. At no time were the poor in Chile as destitute as the poor in other Latin American countries.

20275. stostosto - 6/12/2001 4:36:57 AM

It's funny how much of a focal point Pinochet is in the Russian debate. The Russians seem to use the Chilean experience as a framework for their own debates and policy deliberations. I wonder why that is.

From the top of my head I can remember Alexander Lebed (who is now defunct in Russian politics I think) launched himself as an admirer of Pinochet; chess champion Garry Kasparov authored an article of adulation (actually drawing parallels to Russia very directly); and some months ago I linked an article from Foreign Affairs calling for a "Chilean" solution to Russia's economic problems (written by a Chilean economist who had worked in Pinochet's reform team and now serves as an adviser to or on Russia, I think).

To what degree are Chile's and Russia's situations and experiences really parallel, I wonder?

I don't think Chile is referenced nearly as much in any other country's political debate (possibly bar some other Latian American countries).

20276. pseudoerasmus - 6/12/2001 4:48:16 AM

The author makes references to that.

To what degree are Chile's and Russia's situations and experiences really parallel, I wonder?

Very little. The two are incomparable, in fact.

20277. stostosto - 6/12/2001 5:01:32 AM

Pelle:

The alleged Danish arms of state is a joke, right? These cavemen (as Sakonige rightly calls them) are most un-heraldic.

It's not a joke. This is the official Danish greater arms of state or roalty or kingdom, or soemthing. It was officially re-drawn to look like that in 1972, presumably after some older version. (That's about all a hasty research threw up).

I don't know what the cavemen are about. Perhaps a freakish whim on the part of some royal illustrator way back when.

I have often wondered about the ubiquitous in European heraldic. Why sport an African animal in Danish or Swedish (or English, or Bulgarian) arms of state? The Greenlandic polar bear and the Faroese ram (which may be difficult to discern on the image I copied in) at least appear to have some modicum of logic in their favour. But lions?

In Denmark we even have a frigging elephant featured in one of the highest decorations awarded by the queen. It's actually called "The Elephant Order". (The only foreigner ever to receive it, incidentally, was Nicolae Ceaucescu, that formidable shining knight of great statesmanship).

Whoever imported that poor animal into such humiliating circumstances?

20278. stostosto - 6/12/2001 5:04:49 AM

Pseud,

then why are the Russian so obsessed with Chile and Pinochet?

20279. stostosto - 6/12/2001 5:12:39 AM

I just made a google-search for documents containing the words 'Russia' and 'Pinochet'. It yielded some 26,900 results.

20280. pseudoerasmus - 6/12/2001 5:13:59 AM

Because the question has usually been framed in the context of whether democracy should be developed in tandem with the economy, or whether the latter should come before. Russians also make comparisons with China.

Russia went for the double solution but got neither. All pain, no gain.

All the same, the two are incomparable. Chile had had a 130-year tradition of democracy and a mixed market economy.

20281. stostosto - 6/12/2001 5:16:48 AM

Correction to 20277:

It should have said:

"I have often wondered about the ubiquitous lions in European heraldic."

(They may be ubiquitous in European heraldic but they apparently have a way of absenting themselves from my Mote posts...)

20282. PelleNilsson - 6/12/2001 5:21:18 AM

I think it's simply because the lion (like the equally ubiquitous eagle) is a symbol of strength.

20283. stostosto - 6/12/2001 5:22:43 AM

Russia went for the double solution but got neither. All pain, no gain.

It sure is a sad and depressing sight. Upthread Indiana Jones linked an article titled "Russia is finished". Very readable, if a bit too long for my attention span (I did read it, though). And very depressing.

20284. PelleNilsson - 6/12/2001 5:31:40 AM

The net holds all kinds of amazing information:

Tim Brown explains the Danish Order of the White Elephant:

"It may be a product of Denmark's especially close historical relation with - of all places - Thailand. The white, or albino elephant is the Thai Royal family's most sacred emblem. In the colonial period, the Thais, understanding that they could not permanently fend off western penetrationand efforts at colonization, avoided being swallowed up either by the British from the West or French from the East by cozying up to the one European country they felt least likely to try to colonize them so it could act as their sole window to the West and a deterrent to the voracious imperial powers of the period. That was Denmark. Danish, but no other, traders were invited to set up shop in the province of Vung Kak across the Phao Phya river from the Thai royal city of Krung Thep. The ploy worked, Thailand alone escaped colonization, and lhe link lasted over the centuries. A Danish-origin family, the Seidenfadens, were the King's closest foreign advisors."

20285. stostosto - 6/12/2001 5:44:23 AM

Hey, Pelle!

That's fascinating, I didn't know that. To think that being allied with Denmark worked as a deterrent!

One of last century's biggest and most politically influential Danish companies (which has shrunk to relative insignificance over the last couple decades) The East Asiatic Company (Ø.K. in Danish) was founded on a Thai teak plantation concession. I was aware that this owed to some special ties between the Thai king and H. N. Andersen, the Danish entrepreneur, but I had no idea there was such a background to it.

Intriguing.

20286. RustlerPike - 6/12/2001 6:07:07 AM

There were some shots fired on Katzir Friday it seems. They had a wild wedding celebration in the nearby village and someone decided to rain a few bullets on us too. There have been hundreds of weddings in the past but no one remembers bullets reaching Katzir. My guess is someone was sending us a message.

20287. RustlerPike - 6/12/2001 6:10:25 AM

Could have been CalGal, come to think of it.

20288. ScottLoar - 6/12/2001 6:37:44 AM

re Message # 20277: Animals real, fabulous, exotic or common figure in later European heraldry for the qualities attributed to them or to the places they're associated with. Obviously lions do not memorialize Africa but symbolize courage; kangaroos, emus and the Faroese ram memorialize place and do not symbolize constancy, wit and loyalty.

Frankly, I don't think the animals much care. It is humans who'd rather belong to the Elephant rather than Squid Order.

20289. stostosto - 6/12/2001 6:41:02 AM

Rustler,

a while ago you said we don't appreciate you enough around here. I'd like to say that I, personally, appreciate you very much. In fact much more than I can really explain.

20290. ScottLoar - 6/12/2001 6:46:28 AM

As cold balance to Sto3's effusive appreciation quite frankly I can't stand you RustlerPike.

20291. ScottLoar - 6/12/2001 6:52:17 AM

re Message # 20288: Or, rather, to memorialize the source of origin.

20292. stostosto - 6/12/2001 7:21:30 AM

Loar,

Rest assured, I appreciate you too, in an equally inexplicable fashion.

20293. ScottLoar - 6/12/2001 7:22:57 AM

My Dear Sto3, I wish I could reciprocate the sentiment.

20294. stostosto - 6/12/2001 7:24:07 AM

Scott

That's the kindest thing anyone has said to me in a long time.

20295. marjoribanks - 6/12/2001 10:58:51 AM

Fine hosting job you're doing here, Sto!

20296. Jenerator - 6/12/2001 11:05:28 AM

Sto,

I appreciate you AND your good looks.

Rustler,

You are appreciated here and it wouldn't be the same without you.

ScottLoar,

You have that certian je ne sais quoi that is entirely intoxicating.

Marj,

You're a stud.

Pelle,

You have a chainsaw and you wear hats like no other.


Now, will all of you men please stay in here and continue to make this thread an interesting place to lurk??!!

20297. marjoribanks - 6/12/2001 11:08:55 AM

There are several ironies in the situation that India and Pakistan find themselves in today. The atmosphere between the two countries is guardedly hopeful, the Pak leader has confirmed he will be visiting India for "open" talks on Kashmir, and a kind of ceasefire has been called by all parties involved in Kashmir.

Just a few years ago, every major political move in the subcontinent was treated with woeful hand-wringing by the nebulous international community. The situation between the rival subcontinental nations is rapidly deteriorating, said the media and government commentators from abroad. The victory of the Hindu rightist BJP was a terrible thing for peace, they said. The death of democracy when the Musharraf era started was another bad sign.

Turns out, the possibility of a real rapprochement has never been nearer. No Indian government has been in a better position to make overtures. And the first overture (the famous ride to Lahore by Vajpayee) failed precisely because there wasn't a Pak leader strong enough to reciprocate.

So, today, we hear this startling news. Musharraf has slapped at the hardliners and mullahs in Pakistan who have been spewing "unconstructive" rhetoric. This, of course, was unthinkable a short while ago. Furthermore, the Pak media has followed suit.

So, in the end, it has taken a de facto dictator and a Hindu rightist government to actually grapple with the possibility of peace. Nobody is breaking out flocks of doves, but the facts on the ground are quite remarkable in and of themselves. The Musharraf/Vajpayee meeting, in Delhi, will happen - and only good can come of it.

The trick will be selling the results to the Pak masses, and to the hardline Indian fringe. The first being much more important than the last. Can it happen?

20298. marjoribanks - 6/12/2001 11:49:12 AM

On the UK front, the inevitable has happened after the Tory defeat and the resignation of Hague. Portillo is running for leadership.

The politics part doesn't interest me, what is gossip-worthy is the whole gay politicians thing. See, just a while ago, we were discussing the phenomenon of openly gay politicians in the context of Mandelson (now resigned in disgrace) who was as far as we could tell the seniormost "out" politician anywhere.

The scuttlebut in London for the past few months was that Hague is closeted himself. Now, we have the rather unique case of Portillo, who has admitted (under severe pressure) that he had a 8-yr gay relationship from roughly the age of 19. However, he rather unbelievably states unequivocally that he has not "indulged" in homesexual activity for about 25 years or since entering public life. More controversially (and startlingly) he has voted a fairly hardcore Tory line on gay rights including moving the age of consent back a couple of years. meanwhile, of course, he has admitted to breaking the law himself since at the time he "was" gay the age of consent was 21.

I think Portillo stands even less chance of seizing Downing Street than the godawful Hague. But the prospect of what the Sun calls a "known buggerer" in the PM's offices is likely to severely hurt his chances especially given the kind of political opinion in his own party.

What is also interesting is the fact that both Portillo and Hague are Maggie Thatcher's babies, coddled into politics by the Iron Lady (in the case of Hague literally since puberty). Kind of curious, eh?

Anyway, a political campaign featuring Portillo as PM candidate should be amusing indeed. Oh, sign off the Tories for another decade or so. They ain't coming back very soon.

20299. Uzmakk - 6/12/2001 1:11:22 PM

Message # 20225Now, ofcourse, I am referring to the Pennsylvania Renaissance Festival. But I can see that I am going to have a hard time with you. You will recall that in order to go on the quest on which I intend to send you you must banish Yassar et.al. from your mind. DAMMIT PIKE, PAY ATTENTION -- Yassar is gone. He possesses not a bazooka nor plays a bazuki(sp). The only way that we would possibly let him into the faire is if he headed up a band featuring a camel gut fiddler and piper.

You know, Pike, I am having second thoughts about you. I don't know if you can handle this.

Yours truly,
Uzmakk of the Steppe, Head of Tactical Operations

20300. PelleNilsson - 6/12/2001 1:43:49 PM

marj

I sincerely hope somthing good will come out of the latest India-Pak opening. But over the years the talk of "unconditional talks" (on both sides) has always carried an unspoken proviso "provided that ..".

20301. marjoribanks - 6/12/2001 1:48:52 PM

Pelle,

Just having Musharraf and Vajpayee together, in Delhi, shaking hands, will go some distance in the opinion war. But what is truly interesting and constructive is the tenor of comments from Pak and its media. Nothing like it has ever been voiced before. Nothing like it was ever likely from a PM with a political base to worry about. It had to be a general, and a dictator. It cannot be overstressed that this is an unheard-of phenomenon. Normally Pak leaders stoke and milk anti-India rhetoric.

20302. marjoribanks - 6/12/2001 1:52:19 PM

Also, internationalists, I have just posted at length in the Sports thread about an experience that can be filed under "International Sports'. Or 'immature tomfoolery', I suppose. But International it is, at least.

20303. RustlerPike - 6/12/2001 4:08:57 PM

Sto:

I'd like to say that I, personally, appreciate you very much. In fact much more than I can really explain.

What a great heartwarming compliment. I'll remind you of it next time you call me a crybaby... :-)

Jen:

Were you always making peace between the guys? Does this go back to the sandbox days? What were you like in the sandbox days, I wonder?

Uzmakk:

I am the right man for the job. I can feel it. But how can I leave my family behind and go on this holy mission when danger lurks so close by?

20304. stostosto - 6/12/2001 4:36:12 PM

Well, Rustler, one shouldn't hit on a cry baby. And, even crybabies sometimes have good reason to cry.

20305. stostosto - 6/12/2001 4:40:50 PM

Jen,

you know the reason we men are doing our damnest to make this thread an interesting place is because we imagine you are lurking.

20306. LohrM - 6/12/2001 7:14:44 PM

that's right-- hence our scintillating discussion of the Evil Mordvins and their relationship with the Martian Basques.

20307. LohrM - 6/12/2001 7:18:52 PM

Gay British politicians? Why, I'm...shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

The victory of that moron Blair is one more nail in the coffin of England-as-England. I'm all in favor of the EU and the Euro, but Blair and all his 'modernizing' is erasing the essence of England. England should be part of the EU, certainly. But England needs the hereditary peerage, needs foxhunting, needs Oxbridge and 'good' regiments and *doesn't* need the vaporings of 'multiculturalists' and the 'sensitive'. Why would anyone give a damn about an England that doesn't look or feel *English*?

20308. robertjayb - 6/13/2001 12:08:31 AM

An Irving sighting has been reported in the Cafe.

20309. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/13/2001 12:55:40 AM

Don't believe everything you read, Robert...

20310. PelleNilsson - 6/13/2001 1:55:41 AM

The anecdote I posted the other day about meeting Faysal Husseini at a reception reminds me of another another such, this time in Amman. The occasion was a visit by the Swedish archbishop.

When we arrived we spotted the archbishop and the ambassador on the porch to welcome the guests. But they were not alone: there were also the Grand Mufti of Jordan and the local Armenian and Greek-Orthodox patriarchs in full regalia. The latter used to ride around Amman in a stretched Volvo limousine where the back seat had been ripped out and replaced with a gilded throne-like contraption. The former was a big impressive fellow with a matching beard. Think about blowing up Rustler to double size.

"My God", I said, "what's the ceremonial here? Are we supposed to kiss their rings?"

"And what about the Mufti", said my wife, "does he shake hands with women?"

As it turned out normal rules applied.

20311. marjoribanks - 6/13/2001 10:26:15 AM

Irva!

So good to see you. You were much-missed around here. Hope you and yours are doing well.

Before you get caught up in something else, I insist you give us a brief on the Indonesian political turmoil situation. Is the old man finished for good? What's the general mood?

20312. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/13/2001 10:45:28 AM

Marj:

Missed you too.

In brief, Indonesia is a mess. Gus Dur, a wise and good man, has turned out to be a disastrous leader. Waiting in the wings when he gets forced out is Megawati, who promises to be even worse. The country is torn by political confusion and civil unrest and an economy which seems to find ways to sink lower each month.

On top of all that, the local supermarket is out of all but sugared breakfast cereals. Will it never end?

For some strange reason, tourist arrivals in Bali are up this year. Smart tourists -- Bali remains a paradise, unaffected by turmoil elsewhere, and prices are laughably low (I recently found a dinner tab of $10 for five people (including drinks) rather expensive... till I thought about it). I thank my lucky stars that I decided to get a dollar income three years ago.

20313. marjoribanks - 6/13/2001 10:48:09 AM

No cocoa puffs, Irv? You poor poor fellow.

Thanks for what I hope is the first of a series of posts on Indonesia.

Those Bali prices have me thinking, perhaps only dreaming....

20314. Jenerator - 6/13/2001 10:50:51 AM

Sto,

You are too kind.


Irv,

Marshame and I both send our greetings. We've been wondering about you!

20315. DanDillon - 6/13/2001 10:58:37 AM

For some strange reason, tourist arrivals in Bali are up this year.

They likely booked their trips well in advance (smart tourists, like you said), when the tension in Indonesia had settled somewhat. Of course, these things ebb and flow.... In any case, I'm glad money is still coming in on that end. Not every SE Asian destination can say the same.

Great to see you.

20316. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/13/2001 11:05:18 AM

Marj:
Plenty of Cocoa Puffs... It's the stuff like Corn Flakes and Rice Krispies which has gone missing...

Jen:
Thanks!

Dan:
The political situation has been a mess for three years... it's not like it's gotten worse recently. I assume that the intelligent tourists can spot a bargain...

Good to see you, too... I look forward to linguistic discussions again.

20317. Ronski - 6/13/2001 11:09:43 AM

Irving,

Please don't be such a stranger as we say in New York. Good to see you here.

20318. DanDillon - 6/13/2001 11:18:05 AM

...when the tension in Indonesia had settled somewhat.

Perhaps a better way to say it would have been that people's perceptions of the tension had improved, since the western press largely ignored all things Indonesions for several months at a stretch.

20319. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/13/2001 12:07:27 PM

Ronski! Good to be seen...

Dan:
Perhaps... but tourist arrivals were declining for two years, and started picking up again this year.

20320. pseudoerasmus - 6/13/2001 12:49:06 PM

Hello, snodgrass, welcome back, did you see the extended discussion starting in Message # 18486?

20321. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/13/2001 12:53:42 PM

Not yet, PE... but I'll have a look. Good to see you again.

20322. IrvingSnodgrass - 6/13/2001 1:19:37 PM

PE:
I started reading it, but between the repeated blank pages, a slow connection and my bedtime, I gave up... it's great stuff, and I love this topic, as you know... so I look forward to continuing. I have long been a fan of Cavalli-Sforza.

Who are the Kerala Kadar, and why is their genetic code so different from the rest of the sub-continent? I assume they are an isolated Austro-Asiatic-speaking community.

20323. LohrM - 6/13/2001 7:06:01 PM

Pelle-- I saw a piece on BBC this morning about anti-immigrant politicians in Denmark. I hadn't thought that such feelings had made it to the land of the Danes...

20324. ScottLoar - 6/13/2001 9:26:24 PM

Then where do "such feelings" originate? "Such feelings" migrate or must be imported, or that heretofore Denmark had some sort of natural immunity to "such feelings"?

20325. CalGal - 6/13/2001 9:35:32 PM

Pelle is Swedish, and although I am a woefully ignorant Californian, I am pretty sure that Swedes aren't from Denmark. (or did Pelle make a comment about immigration and I missed it?)

We've actually discussed the immigrant problems in Denmark more than once in this thread; were you around then? I remember them because my attention was caught by the phrase "second generation immigrants".

20326. PelleNilsson - 6/14/2001 3:40:09 AM

Lohr

sto3 is the resident expert on Danish (and Goan) domestic politics. However, there is a strain of latent xenophobia in all the Scandie countries (as in Europe as a whole, cf. Le Pen, Haidar). The difference between Denmark and Sweden is that in the former there is a political party which attempts (and apparently succeeds) in making political capital out of it. The situation is different in Sweden, partly because we had such a party ten years ago which failed to make it for more than one election period and none of the other parties have picked up the xenophobia theme. Also, in recent years, we have had some ugly racial crimes which have turned people away (for the time being?) from the undervegatation of racist and aryan" organisations which do exist.

20327. PelleNilsson - 6/14/2001 3:49:31 AM

The historic moment we have been waiting for since the dawn of history is less than two hours away when the esteemed feet of The American President will touch the sacred tarmac of our venerable nation.

He will be greeted by a manifestation of European sophistication, elegance and wit; one of the protest groups will go for a mooning world record outside his hotel.

20328. stostosto - 6/14/2001 4:15:51 AM

Pelle:

Here is my prediction of the Presidential reaction:

Bush: "Europeans are assholes."
Cheney: "Major league".
Bush: "Ooops -- is this one on?"

20329. stostosto - 6/14/2001 4:16:47 AM

Gus Irv has returned. All is well.

20330. stostosto - 6/14/2001 4:25:59 AM

Lohr and Loar:

I think Danish xenophobia is 100% homegrown. It's the bloody foreigners that are imported. If something is different in the Danish variety of xenophobia it's probably that having significant numbers of foreigners here in this otherwise ethnically exceedingly homogenous place is a very recent phenomenon. This makes for some adjusting.

The rabid xenophobic party has around 10% of the vote, but at times it has been polled at almost 20%.

It's becoming more and more nakedly xenophobic, by the way. They used to have some other issues on their agenda, but they seem to have dropped all pretense and decided that throwing out the Muslims is what gets the vote anyway, so why bother.

20331. ScottLoar - 6/14/2001 5:55:49 AM

Of course. I never assumed a Danish antigen for xenophobia other than quarantine.

20332. ScottLoar - 6/14/2001 5:57:03 AM

Or, more exactly, I already understood the quarantine was breached.

20333. stostosto - 6/14/2001 6:52:49 AM

OK, now that the Argentinian theme has been thoroughly exhausted, I bring to you:



Spectacular Slovakia.

20334. ScottLoar - 6/14/2001 6:55:29 AM

Grass, people, an inlet, trees. A blue sky. Spectacular? Doesn't take much to get you breathin' hard, eh?

20335. stostosto - 6/14/2001 6:56:28 AM

Latest news from PLAVECKÝ ŠTVRTOK is dreadful. Rival bands of Roma (aka Gypsies) clash violently and uncontrollably.

Read all about in The Slovak Spectator

(We ought to have something similar to that online mag in Denmark, actually).

20336. stostosto - 6/14/2001 6:57:45 AM

Hey, Loar, it's not me, but the link that presents the place as "spectacular". I thought it a bit amusing.

20337. jexster - 6/14/2001 8:45:01 AM

thousands of protesters were gathering in Sweden's second largest city to demonstrate their hostility to a man dubbed the "Toxic Texan"

20338. jexster - 6/14/2001 8:52:31 AM

U.S. officials have painted Bush's five-nation, five-day trip...as a chance for Europe to get to know a man often the butt of jokes in the continent's press.

And from the looks of things those god damned Swedians are the ring leaders!

20339. stostosto - 6/14/2001 8:57:19 AM

Hey, jex

I am gracious to see you here.

20340. jexster - 6/14/2001 9:19:37 AM

I am glad at least one of you appreciates an American patriot!

After all we did save you from the Ruskies!

20341. stostosto - 6/14/2001 10:09:36 AM

Yes, and I for one am gracious that we are no longer locked into a Cold War mentality that says we keep the peace by blowing each other up. In my attitude, that's old, that's tired, that's stale.

20342. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 10:29:18 AM

One-note Rajeev Sreenivasan continues ranting on about China, India and the USA.

20343. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 11:04:27 AM

As he prepares for the fairly historic and portentous meeting in Delhi, Musharraf is travelling around Pakistan meeting with a broad spectrum of organizations and leaders in order to garner what he calls a "national consensus" to bring to the table.

This is again a new thing for Pakistan, and I think Musharraf is doing the right thing both in terms of sowing the seeds for a strong decision in Delhi and to combat the Indian fears that he (as an unelected leader) will be unable to implement whatever is decided.

There appears to be fairly broad support for the general at this point, with the dissenters being a core of mullahs and medrassahs who stand to lose their main source of income and power if tensions are indeed reduced with India.

Here, for instance, is one of many positive signs coming from one of the parties with a lot at stake at the conference. Much of this is completely unprecedented and there are growing grounds for wary optimism.

20344. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 11:06:44 AM

For the heck of it, here's Outlook's illustration accompanying its reports on the imminent talks:

20345. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 11:43:00 AM

hey, Lohr, there's another yank who apparently feels the way you do about Britain. But his past is probably a bit more colorful than yours.

20346. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 11:43:03 AM

hey, Lohr, there's another yank who apparently feels the way you do about Britain. But his past is probably a bit more colorful than yours.

20347. marjoribanks - 6/14/2001 11:43:32 AM

That's odd. I only pressed post once, and never refreshed.

20348. jexster - 6/14/2001 1:37:27 PM

UR welcome Sto....now where is Pelle?

Is he on the streets of Gothenberg demonstrating or what?

20349. PelleNilsson - 6/14/2001 2:37:15 PM

I'm mooning frantically.

20350. jexster - 6/14/2001 2:40:19 PM

Pelle STAY HOME!
Pelle STAY HOME!
Pelle STAY HOME!
Pelle STAY HOME!
Pelle STAY HOME!
Pelle STAY HOME!
Pelle STAY HOME!
Pelle STAY HOME!

DEATH TO SWEDIANS!

20351. jexster - 6/14/2001 2:41:54 PM

or RU Swabian?

I confuse the 2

20352. PelleNilsson - 6/14/2001 2:45:04 PM

Actually I'm Switzian.

20353. jexster - 6/14/2001 2:48:20 PM

Whatever, whoever penned that Tired and Huddled Masses Yearning to Breathe Free Krap should have his body disinterred and stuck atop the flag pole at the Crawford Ranch.....

This is war Pelle...We will not stand for this from EuroTrash!

20354. jexster - 6/14/2001 2:53:32 PM

Bush Unifies Europe

Come get some! Its Final Conflict Time!

20355. robertjayb - 6/14/2001 3:54:51 PM

Humorless Swedes...

20356. ScottLoar - 6/14/2001 4:00:46 PM

Gee, I know the Europeans are upset that the Americans in the form of their President and Senate have not ratified the Kyoto protocol for reason it would require the US to spend billions reducing industrial emissions even as others like China and India continue manufacturing scot-free but, say, what EU members have ratified the protocol?

20357. PelleNilsson - 6/14/2001 4:12:57 PM

Don't be daft Scott. The ratification process takes time. The US has said it won't ratify. No EU-member has said that and none will.

20358. ScottLoar - 6/14/2001 5:24:16 PM

To PelleNilsson Posing as Nostradamus;

The US has said it won't ratify exactly for the reasons I recounted. You confirm that no EU member has ratifed the protocol. So, let them ratify independently of the US and rant as they choose - but they will not willingly place themselves at an economic disadvantage against other industrialized or industrializing nations despite bare-assed sentiments on the streets.

20359. Andonly - 6/14/2001 5:31:18 PM

Loar is right.

20360. LohrM - 6/14/2001 7:01:04 PM

Kyoto is only likely to achieve wide ratification if China and other industrializing states are made to conform as well. I support the ideas behind the treaty, but no state will put itself at a competitive disadvantage while allowing special breaks for competitors.

20361. Uzmakk - 6/14/2001 7:15:38 PM

From verbal descriptions, I believe that that is Bubaette's ass.

20362. Uzmakk - 6/14/2001 7:21:38 PM

Pike:

Hang tight. We're going to have a good time.

20363. LohrM - 6/14/2001 7:22:05 PM

I didn't vote for the younger Bush, but I do have to wonder... In six months in office he's irritated me a few times but done nothing truly appalling so far. Other than the small numbers of anarchistas and remnant leftistas, what exactly has he done to so infuriate the Euros? Is it merely an excuse to be out in the streets on a Spring day...and pick up art-school girls by being a "revolutionary"? Is it reflexive anti-US sentiment?

20364. jexster - 6/14/2001 7:47:48 PM

The cunning Swediates are at it again.

On the eve of Our Fuerher's meeting with Putin, the self same Ruskie is being photographed with the Chinese Prime Minister.

I detect the slimy hand of Gustav in all this I do.

PS Pelle - You Swedian bois have purty butts!

20365. jexster - 6/14/2001 8:41:07 PM

omme les fils de la grande bourgeoisie au début du XXe siècle, W. (alias George Bush junior) a entamé hier son «grand tour» d'Europe. Le but premier de ce genre de voyage est de déniaiser le jeune homme en l'exposant aux étrangetés du Vieux Continent. Le choix de l'Europe pour cette première véritable sortie à l'étranger (après un saut de puce au Mexique) du 43e président des Etats-Unis se veut aussi symbolique. Il vise à calmer ceux qui s'inquiètent d'entendre certains experts américains déclarer que la fin de la guerre froide a diminué de beaucoup l'importance de l'Europe vue de Washington et par des stratèges qui voient la «menace» davantage du côté de Pékin que de Moscou. Mais les Européens ne savent pas trop qu'attendre de l'«ami sincère» qui débarque chez eux. Faut-il davantage s'inquiéter de sa propension aux gaffes verbales dès qu'il évoque des contrées pour lui exotiques ou de ses plaidoyers en faveur de la peine capitale? De son apparente irresponsabilité face au réchauffement de la planète ou de sa précipitation à vouloir mettre en place un système antimissile? De ses tendances protectionnistes ou de ses penchants à l'unilatéralisme en matière de politique étrangère?

En quelques mois de pouvoir, George W. Bush a certes appris à rengainer sa rhétorique de cow-boy pour tenir compte de réalités internationales qui se plient rarement aux nécessités de la politique américaine, notamment au Proche-Orient. On peut parier qu'il aura à cœur de prouver aux Européens sa capacité d'écoute et sa volonté de les «consulter». La démonstration ne sera pas inutile, venant d'un Texan connu pour ne pas accorder grande importance au Vieux Continent. Son intérêt, après tout, n'est pas que l'Union européenne se définisse uniquement en contrepoids de l'«hyperpuissance» américaine, voire en concurrence La Liberation

20366. PelleNilsson - 6/15/2001 6:57:20 AM

From today's Jordan Times:

AMMAN - The government on Thursday began implementing new regulations that will restrict the entry into Jordan of Palestinians living in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, a statement by Minister of Interior Awad Khleifat said.

The statement came three days after Khleifat announced the new rules, which he described as temporary were aimed at preventing the Israeli government from achieving its objective, namely to force Palestinians to leave their homeland.

The new rules were "aimed at enhancing the steadfastness of the Palestinian people and to enable them to remain in their homeland, protect and hold on to the religious shrines [in Palestine] and their national rights," Khleifat said in the statement carried by the Jordan News Agency, Petra.

The Jordanians are afraid, very afraid.

20367. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 7:02:08 AM

I take it you mean the Jordanians are afraid, very afraid of the Palestinians usurping Jordan.

20368. Dusty - 6/15/2001 7:19:58 AM

Loar
Your factual comment is correct as I noted in Message # 22503 in thread 85 (Not that this is any surprise to you, but in case anyone is skeptical.)

Do I interpret Message # 20358 as predicting that the EU countries will not ratify, even those that claim they are in favor of it? If so, how will this process take place? Will it be put up for ratification, and fail the vote? Or will various countries use procedural approaches to avoid putting it to a vote? Or something else?

20369. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 7:28:52 AM

Dusty,

Unlike Nostradamus I cannot make predictions but if any EU countries ratify the motive would, it seems to me, be for domestic considerations and by countries who can afford so, in other words Scandanavia. I do not expect EU compliance. The means to avoid ratification are more ingenious than I can imagine.

20370. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 7:30:18 AM

My apologies, Scandinavia.

20371. stostosto - 6/15/2001 8:14:38 AM

I just made a small internet search on Denmark, the EU and Kyoto.

The EU is in fact planning a joint ratification pending a negotiated distribution of its joint Kyoto quota between its member countries. This will allow poorer EU countries to increase their emissions while richer ones will have to cut theirs by more than the average EU requirement. The EU is due to ratify in 2002.

Of course, now that the USA has dropped out, European ratification and compliance seems more difficult to achieve given that it will resemble nothing more than a self-inflicted restriction which doesn't even achieve anything much in terms of global warming since the USA (and everybody else) will just continue to emit greenhouse gases into our common atmosphere. Hence, all bets are off. (And if anyone suggest that this probably suits some EU leaders just fine, I won't protest...)

Denmark, I can proudly and earnestly note, is among the countries that have agreed to the largest relative reduction of its emissions.


Stipulated EU burden sharing. The Kyoto objective is to reduce EU's combined greenhouse gas emissions by 8% compared to the 1990 level by 2008-2012.

20372. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 8:21:46 AM

Message # 20371 and especially its chart confirms Message # 20369

20373. stostosto - 6/15/2001 8:38:57 AM

Interesting that you would include Germany (Tyskland) in Scandinavia...

20374. stostosto - 6/15/2001 8:39:42 AM

As well as Italy, UK, Luxembourg, and Austria...

20375. stostosto - 6/15/2001 8:43:21 AM

Actually, as far as I can see the size of those reductions are primarily correlated with the prominence of coal firing in those countries' power production. Coal emits much more CO2 per kilowatt produced than either oil, or gas or, of course, nuclear power.

20376. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 9:13:16 AM

You mean Germany is not part of Scandinavia? Neither yet Italy, the UK, Luxembourg, Austria?

Then how am I to explain myself to you?

20377. alistairconnor - 6/15/2001 9:51:55 AM

ScottLoar is constitutionally incapable of recognising the existence of altruism in any form. There has to be a catch, a trick.

Those Europeans are being very sneaky, somehow.

Look at it this way, Scott, if it makes you feel happier : Europeans are very stupid.

20378. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 10:43:02 AM

AlistairBenightedConnor;

1) I do recognize selflessness and have actually seen it practiced; you?
2) "Those Europeans" are no different from any others and perhaps more practical than most; they will not alone shoulder responsibility for preventing what they regard as "global warming" but, again, we'll know in the near future how they act, yes?
3) Your stupidity does not make me happier.

20379. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 10:44:09 AM

Oh yes,

4)How came you this intimacy with my constitution?

20380. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 11:15:04 AM

Scott, in the Future thread, did you intimate that you might be coming to my part of the world?

20381. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 11:32:24 AM

My Dear Khaval Alazman;

Yes! In August most likely, Sydney or Melbourne, maybe both, and so my offer to act as proxy for anyone who wins the prize of two hours in public with a foil-wrapped Khaval (suitably bizarre).

I myself read through today's paper and found nothing of import to predict.

20382. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 11:40:25 AM

Scott, wow! How exciting! You simply cannot come to Oz and not see Melbourne. It is this county's most beautiful (and civilised) city. And let us not for a moment forget, that its charms are only compounded by my presence.

While I might not don the entire foil body-suit, I would certainly oblige by wearing a small, elegant foil armband.

20383. jexster - 6/15/2001 11:59:38 AM

Bush To Outline Vision for Europe

Sounds absurd, comical from this side of The Pond. How say you EuroTrash?

20384. jexster - 6/15/2001 12:04:58 PM

Great photo Robert. Kinda detracts from my purty butt remark tho...

mmmmm....

Pelle...find us one of those blond boy butts with a "Toxic Texan" inscription?

20385. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 12:49:42 PM

Melbourne. Been there, done that. But, I allow your enthusiasm is infectious.

I've even been to Alice Springs in the summer; how about that?

20386. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 1:16:40 PM

Scott:
I've even been to Alice Springs in the summer; how about that?

How about such a trip's requiring a lobotomy prior to travel? :)

What a stooooopid thing to do, sir!

Mind you: Melbourne in the summer is pretty vile, too.

So... do you actually know Melbourne, or did you have an hour's stop-over?

20387. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 1:23:35 PM

Khaval;

I learned the Australian salute in Alice Springs.

I've been in Melbourne spring, summer, winter and fall over the course of the last 20 years. I've stayed in St. Kilda's (nice little street fair next to the old amusement park there) but now favour Little Burke (sp?) Street for the last three years. I love to watch the legal aids pushing their overladen trolleys of documents up the street. Melbourne's Chinatown is inferior to that of Sydney but it's older and I suspect more steady; Melbourne's waterfront which was once a shambles of deserted docks is being cleaned up; and in general Melbourne itself has cleaned up greatly in the last 10 years.

I've actually dated girls in Melbourne, Khaval, which would be no mean thing if it were but an hour's stop-over for me.

20388. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 1:25:34 PM

Yes, and I've avoided possum poo while crossing your public parks even as the Japanese tourists were hand-feeding the little wretches.

20389. Andonly - 6/15/2001 1:27:36 PM

The US-based journalist Raghida Dergham (who I guess is Lebanese but I always thought was Egyptian) is or was to be tried in absentia by a military court in Beirut for having appeared on the same program as an Israeli official and having "responded" to his arguments (a.k.a. "lies").

See "Lebanese military puts US-based reporter on trial" at: http://www.metimes.com/2K1/issue2001-23/methaus.htm

You've surely all seen this woman on TV. She's usually quite convincing and moderate, although I did witness her enagage in a spate of silly rationalizing of Arafat's Camp David walk-away which, on a talk show, Fouad Adjami gently rendered laughable.

20390. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 1:29:30 PM

Khaval, I've even read A Favoured Life which should get me some high school credits.

20391. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 1:30:55 PM

My God, Loar! It sounds as though you know the city better than I do.

Now tell me, what is it that has brought you to Melbourne so often?

(btw, the best of Melbourne is in the alley streets of the CBD and Brunswick/Nth Melbourne/Fitzroy/Carlton)

20392. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 1:33:11 PM

Business sends me to Melbourne and about 23 other cities in the Asia-Pacific region. I've been doing this an awfully long while.

20393. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 1:35:42 PM

Hokay. I was just shocked that you knew Melbourne so well. I despise Australia in general and AUstralians in particular, but there is something quite beguiling about certain bits of Melbourne (those alleys are intoxicating... literally). It really is the only city in this entire country in which I could survive.

20394. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 1:38:07 PM

Odd sentiment coming from someone so young as though most deny it they covertly yearn to become Sydneysiders, Melbourne being known as the place of the staid as witness the crowd at the Melbourne Cup.

20395. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 1:40:30 PM

I agree with you about the alleys although - admit it - most are boutiques and coffee shops.

20396. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 1:46:07 PM

Huh? Whatcha talkin' about, Scott? Most Melbornians become Sydneysiders only because of employment reasons.

Sydney beaches are better, for sure - but I am NOT a beach girl, and I DESPISE the Antipodean sun.

But beyond Sydney's natural attractions, it is pretty much consensus among my generation, that melbourne life is far superior for young people.

Apart from cheaper rent and other costs of living, melbourne is the high culture capital of O, the fringe culture cpital, the live music capital, the comedy capital, the fashion/style capital, the bars/pubs capital and the city in which it is easiest to navigate without a car (assuming you don't live out in Shit Creek with no public transport).

Our club/rave culture is also apparently vastly superior, but I have always hated that scene.

The one rave to which I was dragged along was in the forrests about an hour and a half outside Melbourne. It was magnificent in a surreal way, but I couldn't help wondering what the kangaroos and other fauna was making of the D&B and other techno thumpery.

20397. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 1:49:24 PM

20395. ScottLoar - 6/15/01 6:40:30 PM

I agree with you about the alleys although - admit it - most are boutiques and coffee shops.

*Giggle* Yeahhhh... but there are also tiny galleries, other design/display places, and incredible nightlife/jazz joints.

Also, my funkier friends would NEVER EVER consider living ANYWHERE but in those alleys, in vast wareshouse-cum-studios. My funkiest pals live at the end of an alley off an alley. They are so cool, it's impossible to find them :)

20398. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 1:51:48 PM

And apart from my girly fascination with the cutting edge deigners that populate the alleys, you must remember I seek out the stinkier, danker, more marketsome places in a city to feel truly comfy and at home. Melbourne will always be too refined and sterile for me, but the alleys are a good pacifier until I can get out.

20399. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 2:09:24 PM

Yes, of course. I never doubted Melbourne's superiority in all things spiritual and material.

20400. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 2:11:08 PM

Incidentally, my daughter hates clubs but is a die-hard afficionado of raves, a not too subtle difference between the two.

20401. PelleNilsson - 6/15/2001 2:12:59 PM

ScottLoar Message # 20367

Yes, absolutely. It will be the end of the Hashemite dynasty and the "real Jordanians" (descendents of the Beduin in the east and farmers in the west) who dominate poltics, the army and the security forces although, by most accounts, they are a minority of the population, will lose their status.

20402. khaval alazman - 6/15/2001 2:15:36 PM

RE: #20399, don't be a sarky bastard, Loar!

And while I can understand where your daughter's coming from (mainstream clubs are repulsive), I personally cannot stand the raver scene. So boring, monotonous and drug infested.

I really love those tiny little bars inhto which you squeaze with friends. At the back, there might be a minute dancefloor. The people are all-sorts, some looking like they've just stepped off a Gay Pride float, others looking like they've just left the law firm for the day. These places (all in the city alleys) are some of the best night spots I've seen anywhere.

20403. ScottLoar - 6/15/2001 2:17:19 PM</