1. alistairConnor - 7/26/2002 12:20:30 PM
... Now I must go and prepare a barbecue lunch for the in-laws.
2. Snowowl - 7/26/2002 12:40:43 PM
If Jim has anything to do with it UF will certainly be the coalition partner of choice. Personally I think that bodes extremely badly for Labour. Quite apart from the fact that apart from Dunne I doubt anyone could name any of the members of his party that are likely to get into parliament, the composition of his proposed line-up worries me.
The only consolation I've had in this election is seeing the absolute slump of National - it's received lowest percentage of the vote that any major party has got since 1902. I have the sneaking feeling that Don Brasch is the next leader of the National Party.
3. jexster - 7/27/2002 5:08:09 AM
I've run across the phrase "va banque" as in "Saddam Hussein was playing a game of va banque" in GWI and again...Saddam Hussein might fall (this is why the game was va banque)...
Can't find a definition anywhere...
Am certain one of youse international brainiacs has on the tip of her silver tongue
4. jexster - 7/27/2002 5:11:19 AM
Best I can do is "heads I win tails you lose"
5. jexster - 7/27/2002 5:32:47 AM
On second look..."They might be able to reach independence but this is a va banque game, all or nothing. It is very risky and shared with a lot of blood shedding but the last will happen in both cases."
Seems to be a gambling term also the name of a chess move.
6. mrsOckO - 7/27/2002 8:06:34 AM
I agree that the United Party would probably be Clark's best choice. However, she has to deal first with the Greens, specifically their GE stand, before doing anything else; it's a matter of credibility for both parties.
One possible scenario as to how they will resolve the impasse is for Clark to agree to a referendum on genetic engineering, which would allow both parties to appear true to their positions. (This is what the conservatives did with superannuation in 1996 in order to get Winston Peters into their fold. You'll recall that Peters' proposal was soundly defeated in the subsequent referendum.) But it would only postpone the inevitable as far as the Greens are concerned, since Clark's position would almost certainly be vouchsafed in any poll. Will the Greens agree to it?
7. mrsOckO - 7/27/2002 8:12:13 AM
The prospect of a grand center-right coalition seems pretty remote. New Zealand has no experience of European/Israeli-type parliamentary arrangements, and to try to introduce it right now would be a hard sell. But the biggest argument against it happening is the parlous state of the National Party. The conservatives are in no fit shape to be governing anybody.
8. jexster - 7/27/2002 3:29:15 PM
Despite President Bush's repeated bellicose statements about Iraq, many senior U.S. military officers contend that President Saddam Hussein poses no immediate threat and that the United States should continue its policy of containment rather than invade Iraq to force a change of leadership in Baghdad, [a position long-espoused by noted Mote geo-political analyst, Cmndr Baba Jex]
Search for Intelligent Life in Texas Bush: Pentagon Continues to Dump on Machismo Iraq Schemes
But he GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE (Daniel Sickles)
9. jexster - 7/27/2002 3:31:26 PM
AC...
To what extent do national Green Parties cooperate with each other? How are their platforms same, different? What about fund raising, party ops?
10. Marc-Albert - 7/27/2002 4:51:39 PM
New Zealand politics is definitely an acquired taste... But I did surf through the Dominion Post yesterday: crime, juvenile delinquency, kidnap-for-ransom. Is there indeed a crime wave in NZ, or is it just the DP?
11. jexster - 7/27/2002 8:48:41 PM
Saudi Arabia is teetering on the brink of collapse, fuelling Foreign Office fears of an extremist takeover of one of the West's key allies in the war on terror.
Anti-government demonstrations have swept the desert kingdom in the past months in protest at the pro-American stance of the de facto ruler, Prince Abdullah.
At the same time, Whitehall officials are concerned that Abdullah could face a palace coup from elements within the royal family sympathetic to al-Qaeda.
Saudi sources said the Pentagon had recently sponsored a secret conference to look at options if the royal family fell.
Saudi Arabia could fall to al-Qaeda
12. PincherMartin - 7/28/2002 2:23:11 AM
Saudi Arabia falling to Al Qaeda is too much to hope for.
13. wonkers2 - 7/28/2002 3:16:15 AM
Yeah, that would be great! We wouldn't have to worry about the Saudis flooding the market with cheap oil.
14. mrsOckO - 7/28/2002 9:13:03 AM
Message # 25209
New Zealand and Australia are pretty violent by world standards. Although there isn't as much gun violence as there is in, say, the U.S. or Russia, there's plenty of the old-fashioned variety.
I suppose, sad though it is to admit, that the most violent societies usually appear to be the most ethnically mixed. Is there any other reason why Switzerland and South Korea are considerably less violence-prone than Australia and America?
15. RickNelson - 7/28/2002 12:34:49 PM
Dunne and that United-Future party seems interesting. Leans on family values and has members with rather strong christian backgrounds. I read Mrs. Turner's excerpt explainging they're not a party of extremist right-wingers. She went on to express that family in any form is the most important focus. Good, that. What about contentions?
It appears those MPs think they'll have no troubld with Labour. True?
National lost pretty big. Is that good?
16. Rama - 7/28/2002 5:42:09 PM
Is there any other reason why Switzerland and South Korea are considerably less violence-prone than Australia and America?
Yes there are. While ethnic diversity is a major cause of violence, it is not the only cause. Culturally conditioned socialization effects the threshold at which individuals will respond by physical violence to frustration and fear. In both Switzerland and South Korea, loosing control is embarrassing, and so activities that would result in violence in Australia or the U.S. result in a call to the authorities. Additional socialization factors include the degree of individual autonomy individuals are encouraged to experess and plain old modelling: If you see violence succeed, you are likely to copy the behavior.
17. jexster - 7/28/2002 6:06:28 PM
Marc-Albert....the article referenced in the New York Times link that got you all worked up about Goat Island....
Puissance américaine, faiblesse européenne, par Robert kagan
La différence fondamentale entre les Etats-Unis et l'Europe tient moins à une question de culture et de philosophie que de capacité à agir.
18. jexster - 7/28/2002 6:09:10 PM
Traduit pour les Americains...
POWER AND WEAKNESS
Why the United States and Europe see the world differently
Robert Kagan
19. jexster - 7/28/2002 7:26:09 PM
Looks like Rummy is leaking again....
New York Times...another leak
20. jexster - 7/28/2002 7:41:54 PM
THE MORALITY AND LEGALITY OF A WAR AGAINST IRAQ
A CHRISTIAN DECLARATION - Pax Christi
21. Marc-Albert - 7/28/2002 10:01:00 PM
Goat Island?? Well, I guess you may call it like that since the one dozen semi-permanent denizens of Perejil have probably eaten up all the parsley by now.
Thanks for the Kagan link. Remarkably lucid. I subscribe to everything he says.
22. Rama - 7/28/2002 11:11:37 PM
I agree, it is an excellent article
23. alistairConnor - 7/29/2002 12:08:06 PM
Message # 25209 Marc-Albert The Dom-Post (known as the ComPost) is owned by Rupert Murdoch.
Need I say more?
24. alistairConnor - 7/29/2002 12:20:48 PM
Message # 25214 Depends what you're into, Rick. In most parts of the world, political parties who claim to base their actions on "christian values" are actually talking about an authoritarian, patriarchal model.
To put it another way, I've nothing against Christ, on the contrary, but he himself was sensible enough to stay out of secular matters.
I don't think that it's clear yet, where these geezers are going. I think that's why Clark is not wanting to rely on them in the short term. Electorally, their support comes from ex-National voters, and logically they will emerge clearly as a right-wing party -- Dunne himself may not like this, he himself is bland as mashed potatoes, but their true nature is sure to come through.
25. alistairConnor - 7/29/2002 12:36:40 PM
Message # 25208 Jex : There is indeed a "Green International", the first Global Greens conference was held last year in Australia, and a Green Charter has been adopted.
26. betty - 7/29/2002 1:08:52 PM
aC,
that link doesn't work for me (though i've seen the charter before so it doesn't really matter to me).
27. jexster - 7/29/2002 3:57:31 PM
The CluelessOne
"WASHINGTON, July 29 — An American attack on Iraq could profoundly affect the American economy, because the United States would have to pay most of the cost and bear the brunt of any oil price shock or other market disruptions, government officials, diplomats and economists say.
Eleven years ago, the Persian Gulf war, fought to roll back Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, cost the United States and its allies $60 billion and helped set off an economic recession caused in part by a spike in oil prices.
For that war, the allies picked up almost 80 percent of the bill."
SEARCH FOR INTELLIGENT LIFE IN TEXAS BUSH- Profound Effect on U.S. Economy Seen in a War on Iraq
The National Joke is set to become an International Disaster.
28. jexster - 7/29/2002 4:02:38 PM
"Just open a map," said a member of the Kuwaiti royal family in close consultation with Washington. "Afghanistan is in turmoil, the Middle East is in flames, and you want to open a third front in the region?"
"That would truly turn into a war of civilizations," he added.
29. jexster - 7/29/2002 4:04:47 PM
My view is that given all we have said as a leading world power about the necessity of regime change in Iraq," Mr. [James] Schlesinger said, "means that our credibility would be badly damaged if that regime change did not take place."
30. jexster - 7/29/2002 4:06:06 PM
"Given the marked lack of enthusiasm for this venture, I wouldn't think the market reaction would be very good,"
James A. Placke, a former senior diplomat specializing in the Persian Gulf and now a senior associate of Cambridge Energy Research Associates.
31. PincherMartin - 7/29/2002 5:00:30 PM
Wonkers --
Yeah, that would be great! We wouldn't have to worry about the Saudis flooding the market with cheap oil.
You haven't been paying attention to what's going on in Central Asia. If Al Qaeda took over in Saudi Arabia, they wouldn't be in charge of those wells long enough to destroy them, let alone profit from them.
But, as I said, it's too much to hope for. The Sauds are always on the verge of falling out of power, according to some analysts. And in this case, it appears to be a family squabble anyway. The funny thing is Abdullah was once considered anti-West, when he took over from Fahd, and now he's being portrayed as pro-American.
32. jexster - 7/29/2002 5:48:49 PM
ONDON, July 29 — King Abdullah II of Jordan, stopping here on his way to a meeting with President Bush in Washington, said today that elements of the American government were "fixated" on attacking Iraq and that only Secretary of State Colin L. Powell understood the true dimensions of the challenge.
Inmates in Charge of Asylum - Jordanian Says U.S. Attack on Iraq Would Roil Mideast
33. magoseph - 7/29/2002 7:01:31 PM
Method Without Madness?
Under group pressure, they see logic and a "higher purpose" in their actions.
The list includes architects and drifters, engineers and poets, teenagers and middle-aged men, a 30-year-old woman, an 18-year-old girl, and, every week it seems, someone else, someone different.
Suicide bombers are not deranged, psychiatrists say
34. Raskolnikov - 7/29/2002 8:42:27 PM
I seem to recall a few months ago that Pincher posted some information showing that the US share of global GDP had not actually declined since WWII. I seem to remember it being discussed in the context of declining US global power. However, I can't seem to find the post, and can't confirm the info on the web. Does anyone recall where this was, or if Pincher is here, can he recall where he found it?
35. stostosto - 7/29/2002 10:11:11 PM
Rask: Angus Maddison is a good (the best?) source for these long term GDP comparisons.
36. PincherMartin - 7/29/2002 10:26:19 PM
Angus Maddison's latest book was my source for that debate.
However, I don't recall arguing that the United States did not see its share of the World GDP decline since WWII. I believe my argument was that the United States share of world GDP did not decline markedly from 1950 onwards. (1950 is a key benchmark year Maddison uses for most of his graphs. I'll find the particular one when I have the chance today.)
In fact, I took PE to task -- for obvious reasons -- when he used 1945 as his benchmark for measuring U.S. economic power relative to the rest of the world.
37. PincherMartin - 7/29/2002 10:31:22 PM
According to Maddison, the U.S. share of world GDP actually trends slightly upward since 1973, due to the breakup of the Soviet Union.
38. ronski - 7/30/2002 1:59:03 AM
What If They Gave a War in the Straits, and Nobody Came?
Comments from Pincher and all others appreciated.
39. PincherMartin - 7/30/2002 8:54:04 AM
Ronski --
Thanks for the link.
My first reaction was why would anyone be surprised that Taiwan -- and not the war on terrorism -- is China's top priority.
China has Muslim terrorists, but they are largely under control. The Chinese suffer much less from them than do Russians from Chechens, Indians from Kashmiri separatists, or Americans have recently from Al Qaeda.
It's conceivable to me that Chinese might even think a U.S.-led discussion on Xinjiang was a ploy to distract attention from Taiwan (and possibly even to encourage more separatist talk in another troubled region).
40. PincherMartin - 7/30/2002 8:54:16 AM
China's foreign policy is built largely around two goals: trade and Taiwan. Their perspective for viewing the latter of these goals is strictly in realpolitik terms. I mean hard-core power politics. So this paragraph in the article rings true:
The first question following my paper asked if the powerful United States does not feel safe, then how could any other country feel safe? There was a disconnect when discussing a sense of vulnerability in the United States, and a constant redirecting of the debate toward power politics, the so-called "trilateral relationships" (U.S./China/Russia; U.S./China/Japan, etc.), and American policy toward Taiwan. The name Kissinger was heard more than bin Laden.But again, what does this silly scholar expect? Bin Laden is as remote to Chinese concerns as the price of rice in Szechuan is to U.S. concerns.
The conversation was wholly scripted by the afternoon of the second day, and the agenda seemed to be to give us a message about how close the Chinese are to taking action across the strait.An academic goes to China to attend a high-profile conference ands is shocked the Chinese use it for non-academic purposes? But to Chinese minds, this is an opportunity to make clear to high-profile U.S. decision-makers their feelings on Taiwan.
41. ScottLoar - 7/30/2002 9:49:20 AM
There is yet another, pronounced motive as well: the compelling urge by Chinese to educate non-Chinese, for dissent from accepted thought must surely be the result of ignorance, and ignorance can and must be corrected.
42. ScottLoar - 7/30/2002 9:51:44 AM
In the best tradition of dogmatics everywhere, it is not enough that one admits ignorance but that one must be brought to enlightenment and back on the path of orthodoxy.
43. RickNelson - 7/30/2002 10:19:20 AM
Scott, most excellent insight I suppose. China is still an enigma in the west to my way of thinking. I think along the lines that the west doesn't understand the motives of China's leadership. But, then again I don't either. But, that's part of my point. We are not given information about China. To be part of what's happening we need news.
Our own governer went to China very recently. You may have heard? It was slightly embarrassing. His intention to solicit trade between Minnesota and China may bring results, but the news clips didn't show much.
44. PincherMartin - 7/30/2002 11:06:17 AM
Scott Loar --
I agree. The academic in the article mentions a revealing incident along the lines you bring up:
The senior general in their delegation lectured my colleague Nancy Bernkopf Tucker over breakfast about how "ignorant" she was of Chinese history (she's studied China for 30 years), and subsequently cut her off during her presentation on Taiwan.
45. PincherMartin - 7/30/2002 11:28:04 AM
Rask --
My memory of the stats was faulty, as far as I'm able to tell now. It's very difficult to know where to look in Maddison; his book is full of tables, and for the information we want, there is no one table you can look at (or at least none that I found). Nevertheless, this is what I have:
U.S. GDP Figures as a Percentage of World GDP
1913: 19.1%
1950: 27.3%
1962: 24.3%
1973: 22.0%
1986: 21.5%
1998: 21.9%
It's a shame we don't have the figures for a year in the mid-30s.
Look at some of the comparable figures for all of Western Europe:
1913: 33.5%
1950: 26.3%
1973: 25.7%
1998: 20.6%
46. jexster - 7/30/2002 6:00:00 PM
RP...
NBC Nightly News is running a report 2nite on Testosterone Gel...check their website later on..I am sure they'll have info...
FYI I asked my doc about it in connection with a clinical trial sometime back..he said it was too messy to use, stick with the IM in the butt shot
47. jexster - 7/30/2002 6:00:48 PM
oops wrong thread...I meant the Israeli-PAL-RP's Love Life Thread
48. jexster - 7/31/2002 1:43:50 AM
Several months back, when certain neo-con Motiers were all ga-ga over the WarLord, gung ho for Saddam, I had occasion to point out to them the utter folly of their folderol...among the predictions I offered - Bush baghdad blather would only serve to raise the power and status of Saddam who plays his game va banque
Hussein's opening diplomatic gambits have been deft: settling outstanding territorial disputes with Kuwait; winning Arab League support for the proposition that an attack on Iraq constitutes an attack on all Arab states; dangling lucrative contracts before Russia and France; spooking Saudi Arabia so thoroughly that U.S. planners are now developing a war plan without use of Saudi bases. Graham T. Allison
Bow down....
49. stostosto - 8/1/2002 11:34:28 PM
Turkey's parliament voted today overwhelmingly in favour of abandoning the death penalty. Not so incidentally, this was one of the stumbling blocks for the country's entry into the EU.
Damn, they say in Germany. A little more of this, and we'll have to invent some new high-minded objections to letting Turkey in.
50. stostosto - 8/1/2002 11:44:17 PM
Turkey to scrap death penalty (BBC)
The Turkish parliament has voted to abolish the death penalty.
Turkish deputies have been debating a package of reforms aimed at easing the way for the European Union to set a date for the opening of accession negotiations.
Abolishing capital punishment would be an important step towards Turkey's ambition of joining the EU, correspondents say.
It would also save condemned Kurdish rebel leader Abdullah Ocalan from execution.
Öcalan.
51. stostosto - 8/1/2002 11:45:19 PM
Detoy.
52. Marc-Albert - 8/2/2002 12:17:39 AM
Letting Turkey in..
By then, that should be in excess of 100 million Turks to integrate in the EU. There will be, among other things, the little matter of the CAP: tens of millions of Turkish farmers will expect the same benefits that accrued to the French, Spanish and Portugueses farmers in the past, that has become their acquired right, and that they will (very violently) defend to their last breath.
I would imagine quite a few billions of euros during the first ten years following Turkey's admission.
And before, there will be the little matter of integrating millions of Polish farmers, and make them happy too. It's their godgiven right too.
But what the heck. As the French like to say: "l'Allemagne paiera".
53. PincherMartin - 8/2/2002 1:02:17 PM
Good essay by Victor Davis Hanson on why Americans shouldn't worry too much about whether foreigners like us or not.
...we should explain to the world why U.N. resolutions do not represent collective wisdom, but often the reinforced biases and private agendas of dozens of autocratic, theocratic, and tribal regimes who vote only in New York, never at home. And if we are more imaginative still we can point out that the American fleet keeps the peace cheaply for others in the Pacific and Mediterranean, that American companies and universities provide the world with life-saving medicine, medical treatments, and critical technology.
54. stostosto - 8/2/2002 1:32:06 PM
"that American companies and universities provide the world with life-saving medicine, medical treatments, and critical technology."
Free of charge? That's truly magnanimous.
Come on, Pincher. You can't seriously think this Hanson bugger is worthwhile.
55. glendajean - 8/2/2002 1:37:41 PM
I am in England for a few days. I saw a paperback book in a London bookstore called Why We Hate Americans.
56. glendajean - 8/2/2002 1:38:03 PM
toys?
57. PincherMartin - 8/2/2002 2:23:43 PM
Sto --
Neither Hanson nor I ever said that the medicine, schooling, and technology is "free of charge." Nevertheless, many of the world's developing countries can get it in the U.S. for a fair price, and tens of thousands of their citizens choose to do so every year.
And, yes, Hanson's essay is worthwhile, enjoyable even. But I can't promise it'll be a life-changing event for you.
58. PincherMartin - 8/2/2002 2:25:02 PM
I am in England for a few days. I saw a paperback book in a London bookstore called Why We Hate Americans.
You should pick it up.
59. RickNelson - 8/2/2002 2:44:43 PM
PM,
Wrt to that tiny excerpt by Hanson; could he be expounding the closed logic that American's do so much good, other opinions aren't worthy of study toward cause and affect?
60. RickNelson - 8/2/2002 2:45:43 PM
Gotta go or I'ld read your link.
61. PincherMartin - 8/2/2002 2:52:37 PM
Rick --
I think he's simply saying that Americans provide the world with many good things. It's not an original thought and Americans are not the only ones to do so, but when many people around the world look at the U.S. as being on the level of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, it's worth pointing out.
62. wonkers2 - 8/2/2002 3:46:50 PM
Turkey abolishing the death penalty? Soon the U.S. will be in a very small, elite group.
63. stostosto - 8/3/2002 12:45:13 AM
"when many people around the world look at the U.S. as being on the level of Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, it's worth pointing out."
Pincher, I really don't think you should be so insecure. Who are those "many" people? I have said this before, and I will say it again: I don't think there has ever been a more acceptable and accepted hegemon in world history as the US is right now, on almost any level. That doesn't mean people won't disagree with any given US policy. Indeed, the hegemon status virtually guarantees that there will always be someone somewhere who disagrees whatever America chooses to do. But that is not the same as being considered on a par with Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union.
I don't know if I want to read Hanson. I already read some of his some time ago along that quote you gave, and it had a distinctive seventh grader feel. He seems to have a quaint fixation with the US as provider of "life-saving" medicine which he apparently thinks merits some special status and regard above what it actually is getting. The man is a card.
64. stostosto - 8/3/2002 12:47:22 AM
Turkey's parliament actually voted the whole reform package through meaning also that Kurdish language will now be allowed in Turkish mass media. Encouraging, I think.
I have a feeling that this might be more significant than I am capable of accounting for.
65. PincherMartin - 8/3/2002 3:15:47 AM
Sto --
Pincher, I really don't think you should be so insecure. Who are those "many" people?
Followers of Chomsky, Vidal, etc. Countless numbers in the Arab and Muslim world, who believe the U.S. bombed itself on 9-11 so that it could continue its hegemon role in the Middle East. (Hanson's article is directed more at the Arab and Muslim world.)
Perhaps if you weren't so self-censoring on what you read, you wouldn't ask such stupid questions.
I have said this before, and I will say it again: I don't think there has ever been a more acceptable and accepted hegemon in world history as the US is right now, on almost any level.
That article I linked wasn't directed at you personally. If you don't want to read it, don't read it.
That doesn't mean people won't disagree with any given US policy. Indeed, the hegemon status virtually guarantees that there will always be someone somewhere who disagrees whatever America chooses to do. But that is not the same as being considered on a par with Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union.
Numerous people all over the world, including in the United States, accuse the U.S. of all sorts of crimes that are on par with those countries. Some of them go so far as to make the comparison outright. You may not believe they count, and pre 9-11 I might have agreed. But the U.S. now believes it's important enough to spend money in this area to counter their perceptions.
continued ...
66. PincherMartin - 8/3/2002 3:16:25 AM
I don't know if I want to read Hanson. I already read some of his some time ago along that quote you gave, and it had a distinctive seventh grader feel.
Victor Davis Hanson has a PhD in Classics from Stanford University and has written extensively on Ancient Greek warfare and agriculture. His work in those areas is considered groundbreaking. More recently he has published bestselling books that deal with the Western idea of Warfare.
In much the same way that Paul Krugman went from solid scholarly work to more popular stuff, and finally to column writing, Hanson has followed the same route. I'm not sure this is the right direction to take for any scholar, but Hanson retains enough power in his writing to get above the seventh-grade level.
As for whether you read it or not, I really don't care.
He seems to have a quaint fixation with the US as provider of "life-saving" medicine which he apparently thinks merits some special status and regard above what it actually is getting. The man is a card.
The fixation is yours, not his. Besides the one line I cited, I don't believe Hanson even mentions medicine anywhere else in the column. If he did, I don't remember it, and he certainly doesn't focus on the subject.
67. alistairConnor - 8/3/2002 6:37:18 PM
Sto : Did the Turkish parliament also vote to put an end to their quaint custom of being overthrown by the military every few years?
And if it becomes legal to speak and think in Kurdish, they will have to find another excuse to outlaw Kurdish political parties.
Sure, on paper it looks like progress. I hope it really is.
68. stostosto - 8/4/2002 6:45:07 PM
Like Why the West has Won reviewed here in the Independent.
---
I have dutifully read the good essay you linked now. Hanson argues that people hate America because of all its unique virtues, but can't say so because that sort of sounds silly, so they invent all kinds of improbable gripes like invasions and bombing campaigns and sanctions and support for Israel's various military ventures and let out their pent-up steam over these. That's an original view.
69. stostosto - 8/4/2002 6:47:54 PM
Oops, I forgot to insert this remark of Pincher's in the beginning of my former post:
More recently he has published bestselling books that deal with the Western idea of Warfare.
70. stostosto - 8/4/2002 6:49:43 PM
Alistair:
When was the last time the Turkish army intervened? And is your skeptical-sounding comment rooted in opposition to admitting Turkey into the EU?
71. stostosto - 8/4/2002 6:53:20 PM
In much the same way that Paul Krugman went from solid scholarly work to more popular stuff, and finally to column writing, Hanson has followed the same route.
I am a bit dismayed at Krugman's development as an NYT obsessionist. But I think it's improper that you compare him to the Hanson fellow, however groundbreaking his work may have been in the field of ancient Greek agriculture and warfare.
72. PelleNilsson - 8/4/2002 7:03:26 PM
That's a good one, sto. I thought I recognized the name of the reviewer, Frank McLynn, and yes, he is a professor of history at the University of London.
73. alistairConnor - 8/4/2002 8:33:40 PM
When was the last time the Turkish army intervened?
Has it been more than five years? Less than ten, surely.
No, I am by no means opposed to Turkey entering Europe : just sceptical about how profoundly the ruling class are prepared to change their ways. As I understand it, the army is pervasive in political and economic life, and still very much a player. That's not acceptable, I think, for an EU country.
And whatever statutes they vote for the Kurds, I imagine that ethnic Turkish nationalism will still have the upper hand for a number of years, and that again is a no-no for the EU.
74. alistairConnor - 8/4/2002 8:36:18 PM
Clearly, the prospect of EU entry is a positive influence, and they are moving in the right directions, but I fear it will be slow.
75. PelleNilsson - 8/4/2002 9:18:45 PM
I don't think the Turkish army has intervened in politics in any major way since the bloodless coup of 1980.
76. PelleNilsson - 8/4/2002 9:21:45 PM
I imagine that ethnic Turkish nationalism will still have the upper hand for a number of years, and that again is a no-no for the EU.
Come on Alistair. What about ethnic German nationalism? Danish? French? Ethnic nationalism is the norm in EU.
77. betty - 8/4/2002 9:34:16 PM
Pelle,
I can understand alistair's concern...German nationalism hasn't resulted in the government-sanctioned massacre of minority populations in almost 60 years. Yet we know that this is an ongoing and current problem in Turkey today.
that said, it's nice to know that the Turkey has beaten the US in outlawing the death penalty. Geesh, we should be proud of ourselves over here for standing defiantly against international pressure to act like a semi-civilized society. We are bold!
78. wonkers2 - 8/4/2002 9:57:44 PM
There's no reason to be dismayed at Krugman's NYT op-ed pieces. They may not present both sides of the argument, but the side they present is accurate and well formulated. The NYT has by far the best op-ed page I've seen. I'm sure Krugman is fulfilling his scholarly and teaching obligations at Princeton. He is a well respected, solid, middle-of-the-road economist and not the first to grace the NYT's op-ed page.
79. alistairConnor - 8/4/2002 10:52:34 PM
Pelle, In 1997 or 1998, the military intervened to prevent the formation of a democratically-elected government which was too Islamic for the Kemalist army. Whether one approves of that or not, it is hardly par for the course in the EU. The military also owns large chunks of the economy, and runs it for its own benefit -- again, hardly European orthodoxy.
And if you think the Turkish "handling" of the Kurd minority is comparable to, say, the Basque or Corsican issues, well... think again.
80. PincherMartin - 8/5/2002 3:19:45 AM
Sto --
Pincher: "More recently he has published bestselling books that deal with the Western idea of Warfare."
Sto: Like Why the West has Won reviewed here in the Independent.
Yes, just like that book. The title of it in the United States is Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power. It is not a scholarly tome; it is one of those books, as I said, that is a best-seller. Another one to add to this list is The Soul of Battle.
Hanson's books for the masses have numerous faults in them, but they are far more enjoyable and knowledgable than that amazingly shitty review to which you linked. (Normally, I would suggest you read one of Hanson's books to sample his work, but I now know what tough work reading is for you.) I would think you would be on your guard when you read "...it is actually a crude piece of pro-capitalist propaganda. 'Capitalism,' the author tells us, 'explains in no small part Western military dominance from the age of Salamis to the Gulf War.'"
Hanson is right. The marketplace in the West has provided a critical edge in the West's battles with armies from non-Western cultures. The Greeks had far better military technology than the Persians even though the Persians by all measurements had far more wealth when looked at in gross terms. Part of the reason for this was the effiency of the agora where Greeks could work successful trades without too much fear from the elites.
And who would even argue that, more recently, capitalism is a major reason -- perhaps the only reason -- why the West has reigned supreme on the battlefield.
(If called upon, I will go through that review section by section and demolish most of his claims.)
continued ...
81. PincherMartin - 8/5/2002 3:21:42 AM
---
I have dutifully read the good essay you linked now.
Why? I absolved you of any duty.
As for your comments, it is as I feared: they are largely self-serving and non-responsive to my comments on your post. Asked to prove what "many" think of the U.S. as a modern-day Nazi Germany or Soviet Union, I gave specific answers. Now you move on to say that, well, since the U.S. has policies many disagree with, Hanson is wrong.
Your arguments are entirely ad hoc and silly. First, you claim you don't think you ought to read the article and that this Hanson fellow (who you haven't read) can't write past a seventh-grade level anyway. I reply, fine don't read the article, but Hanson is a respected scholar of Ancient Greek Warfare.
Then you read the article and link to a highly critical review about one of Hanson's popular works (not scholarly books) as if to show you were right not to read the article in the first place.
Sto, let's clear one thing up. I don't care if you read the link, Hanson's books, or just about anything else under the damn sun. Get it? I don't care. But I will respond to any spurious remarks you make about the U.S., myself, Hanson, or any other subject when I feel you need to be publicly corrected.
82. PincherMartin - 8/5/2002 3:31:59 AM
Sto --
I am a bit dismayed at Krugman's development as an NYT obsessionist. But I think it's improper that you compare him to the Hanson fellow, however groundbreaking his work may have been in the field of ancient Greek agriculture and warfare.
Why? Based on the one article of Hanson's and the one review of his popular work you've read?
Hanson is not the scholar Krugman is, but their development from respectable scholar to writer of popular works to columnist is similar. Hanson's The Western Way of War is a remarkable piece of scholarship on Greek hoplite battles. It's possible even you would enjoy it could you move yourself to pick up a book.
Where Hanson gets into trouble in his popular books is by overstating his claims and ignoring contradictory evidence. But even in his popular work, he is interesting and readable.
83. RickNelson - 8/5/2002 3:43:30 AM
wonkers,
No disrespect to you, but this afternoons kausfiles report was specifically about Krugman.
"Krugman: "I Didn't Know"
The NYT columnist grudgingly admits error -- to readers of his Web site, anyway.
By Mickey Kaus
Posted Monday, August 5, 2002, at 2:21 PM PT
Will Paul Krugman's next NYT column acknowledge the serious fact mistake in his July 16 column on George W. Bush's Texas Rangers investment? The mistake was pointed out in a letter to the NYT, dated 7/22 but printed last Friday. Krugman admitted the mistake yesterday, in weaselly best-defense-is-a-good-offense fashion, on his own Web site. But how many Times readers read Krugman's Web site? Don't NYT columnists print corrections of their errors in the same space where the errors were made?"
84. marjoribanks - 8/5/2002 3:08:08 PM
Hey, sto, I thought you may be interested to read this article on Kerala and World Cup fever.
85. jexster - 8/5/2002 5:16:16 PM
Warlord Threat to Karzai - Fight Could Cause US Backed Regime to Fall
86. jexster - 8/5/2002 11:34:25 PM
They (the hearings) produced a number of experts who set out in detail what the costs would be -- the political costs, the economic costs," said international affairs analyst Marshall Windmiller. "They're staggering."
When considering toppling Saddam Hussein, it would be wise to consider the lesson provided by the consequent struggle Afghanistan ( news - web sites) is having after the U.S. invaded there, Windmiller said.
"(President) Karzai is having a big struggle with his defense minister. Two members of his cabinet were assassinated, the warlords are running the countryside, the rule of law extends only to the boundaries of Kabul, and the farmers are planting opium poppies again," he said. "The place is a shambles." - Associated Press
87. stostosto - 8/5/2002 11:35:30 PM
Sto, let's clear one thing up. I don't care if you read the link, Hanson's books, or just about anything else under the damn sun. Get it?
Well, if you say so. But when someone links to what they call a good essay and quote a passage from that essay, wouldn't it normally be considered a recommendation for others to read it, perhaps even comment on it? And when someone says, as you did in Message # 25264 that "Perhaps if you weren't so self-censoring on what you read, you wouldn't ask such stupid questions", then it might be interpreted as a reproach for my not having read the article.
And, Pincher, let's clear one other thing up: I don't care whether you care that I read it.
Message # 25290:As for your comments, it is as I feared: they are largely self-serving and non-responsive to my comments on your post. Asked to prove what "many" think of the U.S. as a modern-day Nazi Germany or Soviet Union, I gave specific answers. Now you move on to say that, well, since the U.S. has policies many disagree with, Hanson is wrong.
I didn't address your answer (which of course depends on the meaning of the word "many"), true, but how was my comment self-serving? Because by stating the essence of Hanson's screed, I substantiated my previously stated disdain for him?
88. stostosto - 8/5/2002 11:47:29 PM
Why? [don't I think Hanson should be compared to Krugman]. Based on the one article of Hanson's and the one review of his popular work you've read?
Yes, based on that. There is quite enough empty posturing in that article to make the criticism of the review appear likely to hold true.
Where Hanson gets into trouble in his popular books is by overstating his claims and ignoring contradictory evidence.
You say that as if that is almost an irrelevant detail. From what I have seen he is also prone to sweeping generalisations, and he has this odd idea that the fact that America produces technologies that are in demand by others, including America's enemies somehow in itself shows how hypocritical they are. I would point out that as long as the foreigners pay the going market price for these products (and in two articles by Hanson, he conspicuously and specifically mentions medicine), it is hard to see anything moral in this, one way or the other. If so, one could justifiably argue that the fact that the rest of the world finances America's widening current account deficit makes American bossiness hypocritical.
But even in his popular work, he is interesting and readable.
I have your word for it, but I am not going to see if it holds true.
89. stostosto - 8/5/2002 11:53:59 PM
Instead of discussing on the basis of "good essays" by puffed-up dotty windbags like Hanson, her is my entry for the category "a good essay": Power and Weakness. By Robert Kagan.
It is highly illuminating as to why America and Europe see the world so differently. Perceptive, intelligent and eye-opening. And, I might add, not at all Euro-friendly, but actually a quite scathing comment on Euro-illusions.
90. jexster - 8/6/2002 2:25:59 AM
I dun bin tellin youse Euro-wusses....KICK BUTT
Annan Warns Against Irak Attak
91. jexster - 8/6/2002 3:37:08 AM
Sto...
Kagan's article oversimplifies what he calls "the American" perspective.
Back during the Cold War, some Europeans were concerned that, trip-wire notwithstanding, America screw Europe by fighting a war with Russia solely on European soil, leaving Europe in cinders and the US in tact.
And I for one, think that this concern was not entirely without foundation. For, and this is where Kagan oversimplifies, there has been a strain in US politics on foreign affairs, an anti-Euro, very nativist strain dating back to God's Annointing in 1776, and even b4 that really, which reached its extreme in the defeat of the League of Nations and pre-WWII isolationism. The political ground was in the Republican Party.
Though masked somewhat by the Cold War, it was present nonetheless visible in a Euro-centric bent (Democrats) and Asian Tilt (Republican, Mme. Chaing, Committee of 100 McCarthy etc).
Now that the Cold War is over and the mask is off we can clearly see today in Bush's dealings with the EU, that this nativist anti-Euroism is still alive and well in the GOP.
If Europeans think for minute that Republicans generally, and the current president especially in particular, give a crap about what Europe's interests are - forget it.
92. jexster - 8/6/2002 3:38:56 AM
Should push come to shove, Bush will toss Europe as quickly as an empty can of Lone Star beer.
Kagan hinted at it. Kagan is a Bush-o-phile so Kagan wouldn't say it...just glossed it.
93. jexster - 8/6/2002 3:42:10 AM
"america [WOULD] screw"
94. jexster - 8/6/2002 4:09:14 AM
BEIJING (AP) - Taiwan faces a growing possibility of military action by the mainland if "radical pro-independence moves" continue on the island, the Chinese government warned Wednesday through its state-run media.
But hawk interpretations are wrong and will only contribute to the United States’ decline, transforming a gradual descent into a much more rapid and turbulent fall. Specifically, hawk approaches will fail for military, economic, and ideological reasons.
And there is always the matter of “second fronts.” Following the Gulf War, U.S. armed forces sought to prepare for the possibility of two simultaneous regional wars. After a while, the Pentagon quietly abandoned the idea as impractical and costly.
But who can be sure that no potential U.S. enemies would strike when the United States appears bogged down in Iraq?
New Haven -- George W. Bush is a geopolitical incompetent. He has allowed a clique of hawks to induce him to take a position on invading Iraq from which he cannot extract himself, one which will have nothing but negative consequences for the United States -- and the rest of the world. Wall-eyed Stein
95. PincherMartin - 8/6/2002 5:09:28 PM
Message # 25286
Well, if you say so. But when someone links to what they call a good essay and quote a passage from that essay, wouldn't it normally be considered a recommendation for others to read it, perhaps even comment on it?
Certainly. But I'm not the slightest bit interested in someone who gives an opinion on a piece when they haven't even read it, disparages the author when they don't know him, and after this is pointed out, tries to cover it up by making an immediate and self-serving search to discredit him and his work.
And when someone says, as you did in Message # 25264 that "Perhaps if you weren't so self-censoring on what you read, you wouldn't ask such stupid questions", then it might be interpreted as a reproach for my not having read the article.
No reproach. I'm making fun of you for having such firm opinions on something you haven't even read. The funniest part is that you didn't even try to read it. It's not like you got a quarter of the way through and decided it wasn't worth finishing. That would at least be understandable.
And, Pincher, let's clear one other thing up: I don't care whether you care that I read it.
Sure you do, dickhead.
Yes, based on that. There is quite enough empty posturing in that article to make the criticism of the review appear likely to hold true.
You mean I can pick one of Paul Krugman's NY Times' articles and one poorly written negative review of his work for the public, and based on the judgements I make from reading those two things, they would likely hold true for the rest of Krugman's work as well? Do you read anything anymore beyond links here in The Mote and Danish-lanaguage material for pedophiles ? What are some of the serious books you've read in the last year?
continued ...
96. PincherMartin - 8/6/2002 5:12:11 PM
From what I have seen [Hanson] is also prone to sweeping generalisations, and he has this odd idea that the fact that America produces technologies that are in demand by others, including America's enemies somehow in itself shows how hypocritical they are.
The line on medicine was obviously a throwaway, not in the least central to his main point in the essay. One could take a similar tack with any essay, column or book one reads if one wanted an excuse not to like it. Please link to an essay or book that doesn't have similar contradictions, exaggerations, generalizations, etc.
I described the essay as "good." Not great. Not fascinating or seminal. Just "good." I am certainly open to other views as to its quality, but I don't want to listen to some snide dickhead as he searches for reasons not to like it before he even reads it.
97. jexster - 8/6/2002 5:27:10 PM
Policy: Any U.S. military action against Iraq should first be approved by the U.N., some say. Popular opposition to an attack is growing in Europe.
98. jexster - 8/6/2002 5:35:24 PM
99. Marc-Albert - 8/6/2002 6:18:21 PM
"Popular opposition to an attack is growing in Europe."
Again, that brings us back to Kagan's viewpoint on Europe's accute awareness of its own impotence, not to say irrelevance.
If the USSR was still extant, the Frech minister of Foreign Affairs would be busy concocting a common stance with the Soviet in order to counterweight l'hyperpuissance américaine.
100. alistairConnor - 8/6/2002 7:50:15 PM
True, European support is probably not crucial to the viability of a US attack on Iraq. (though that perhaps depends on whether you include Turkey in "Europe").
Arab support most certainly is.
101. alistairConnor - 8/7/2002 12:26:12 AM
Ha! A certain David Cohen is telling fibs about New Zealand in the Judaeo-Christian Science Monitor, as is his wont...
New Zealand debate over gene-modified food heats up
The guy interviewed, an old acquaintance of mine, is a right-wing ratbag, just like the interviewer. The alleged journalist flirts with dishonesty by concealing the pertinent fact that the appropriately named Mr Rainbow (once red, then green, now blue) is a member of the National Party (more precisely, of its "BlueGreen" clique, a sort of environmentalist figleaf) who were so thoroughly trounced in last month's election.
He should be ashamed. They both should.
102. jexster - 8/7/2002 1:12:23 AM
103. jexster - 8/7/2002 1:18:43 AM
Les oppositions à une guerre contre Saddam Hussein se renforcent
104. stostosto - 8/7/2002 9:35:44 PM
You mean I can pick one of Paul Krugman's NY Times' articles and one poorly written negative review of his work for the public, and based on the judgements I make from reading those two things, they would likely hold true for the rest of Krugman's work as well?
Depends on your judgmental skills. They don't seem very impressive.
I told you I had seen some other piece by Hanson which already had me eye-rolling, then you link an article and quote a passage which, supposedly, is a high-light; it's a silly passage and totally consistent with my first impression of the man. I am honestly surprised that you, you PincherMartin, take him seriously, which, by the way, you are free to interpret as a compliment, as in "I expect better from you".
Then I make a search and find that review which is also in line with my perception. Nothing self-serving about that, and I post the link as a courtesy for your pleasant enlightenment.
There.
Please link to an essay or book that doesn't have similar contradictions, exaggerations, generalizations, etc
It's not that Hanson have them, it's that he has nothing but.
And I just did link such an essay, the Kagan essay which I highly recommend.
Do you read anything anymore beyond links here in The Mote and Danish-lanaguage material for pedophiles ? What are some of the serious books you've read in the last year?
Who's snide, huh, side-parting man? But it's an interesting question, so I'll give you some.
Peter Jay: Road to Riches - or The Wealth of Man
Poul Nyboe Andersen: Thorkil Kristensen - en ener i dansk politik
Herbert Pundik: Det kan ikke ske i Danmark
Mark Mazower: Dark Continent. Europe's twentieth century
Karl-Erik Frandsen: Kongens og folkets København gennem 800 år.
Micklethwait & Wooldridge: A Future Perfect.
105. stostosto - 8/7/2002 9:36:39 PM
I also read some novels and am currently trying, trying for the umpteenth time, to get into Gibson's "Neuromancer".
One I am considering, btw, is Fukuyama's latest "The Post-human future". Have you read that one? If so, what's your opinion? (I do have my opinions about Fukuyama too, as you may recall).
106. PincherMartin - 8/8/2002 12:36:23 AM
Depends on your judgmental skills. They don't seem very impressive.
Making broad conclusions about Krugman's scholarship -- as you did on Hanson's -- based on reading one of his columns and one critical review of his popular work is ridiculous, no matter what your judgements is like.
Your case is not significantly strengthened by claiming that you've actually read two of his columns.
...it's a silly passage and totally consistent with my first impression of the man. I am honestly surprised that you, you PincherMartin, take him seriously, which, by the way, you are free to interpret as a compliment, as in "I expect better from you"..
It was a good article. It asks questions -- which you totally ignored -- like what kind of results can the U.S. expect by spending more money on overseas propaganda and is there any correlation between what the U.S. does overseas and the level of hatred directed at it.
It is not a scholarly piece, nor is it meant to be. It is an opinion piece, and as such is filled with opinions -- many of which are not elaborated on or defended. But as these kinds of opinion columns go, it's a good one.
continued ...
107. PincherMartin - 8/8/2002 12:36:45 AM
Then I make a search and find that review which is also in line with my perception. Nothing self-serving about that, and I post the link as a courtesy for your pleasant enlightenment.
You would like Carnage and Culture despite your predilections and despite the review you linked to. Like me, you would probably find that is significantly overreaches in its claims. But unlike so many other books which also have too bold of a thesis, Carnage and Culture makes you enjoy the ride as you go along.
It is a popular book, however, and not up to the solid work of his scholarship on the Greek hoplite phalanx formation and why it was so devastating a military tool against its opponents (and sometimes against itself). Hanson makes the claim in The Western Way of War that the Western idea of a "decisive battle" came out of this Greek experience. It is a superb book.
108. PincherMartin - 8/8/2002 12:41:21 AM
...ener i dansk...
...Det kan ikke ske...
...Kongens og folkets...
You see, I guessed right. You are reading a lot of Danish-language material for pedophiles.
109. jexster - 8/10/2002 1:24:23 AM
Scratch Britain...
Published on Friday, August 9, 2002 in the lndependent/UK
Iraq War Could Engulf Region, Britain Warns US
by Kim Sengupta
Britain has strongly advised the United States against attacking Iraq, warning that it risked intensifying the conflicts in Afghanistan, Israel and Kashmir, senior defense and diplomatic sources say.
In a sign of deepening discord between the two allies, British ministers and officials in Whitehall believe that a new war would "contaminate" the other crises."These are issues the Americans appear not to have considered," said one official.
They also have grave reservations about President George Bush's demand for a "regime change" in Baghdad because, London believes, no alternative regime has been identified for such a change to take place. Britain may be lumbered with leading a massive stabilization force for "up to five years" in an anarchic post-war Iraq, with the prospect of the country being partitioned.
While Britain is certain that Saddam Hussein has acquired some form of chemical and biological weapons capacity since the United Nations weapons inspectors were expelled from Iraq, ministers have seen no evidence that he can use them in any meaningful way against the West.
America has countered the British worries by maintaining that each conflict in the region can be contained and that it is impractical to wait for every issue to be resolved before taking action against President Saddam, according to the officials.
110. ronski - 8/10/2002 1:30:00 AM
Typical from The Independent.
111. jexster - 8/11/2002 4:07:54 AM
RULE BRITTANIA!
Attack on Iraq rejected by 2 in 3 voters - Daily Telegraph
112. jexster - 8/11/2002 6:32:11 PM
Bobby Kagan Meet Friedrich von Bernhardi
Consider the ruminations of General Friedrich von Bernhardi (1849-1930) who, according to the introduction to the English edition of his book, was "the outstanding military writer of his day. He was chief of the war historical section of the General Staff from 1898 to 1901. Later, writing about the Second Moroccan Crisis in 1909, while the commanding general of the Seventh Army Corps, Bernhardi [could] scarcely disguise his impatience and alarm over the government's lack of determination. . . . The choice was expansionism or certain death, 'world power or decline.' Invoking a higher morality, geopolitics, and the logic of history . . . Bernhardi advocated aggressive war, for which the nation had to be prepared materially and psychologically. Negotiating conflicts of interest between the Great Powers could not be considered a serious option. It was rather a sign of weakness. He preached the necessity of war with an urgency bordering on panic. [Germany and the Next War (New York, 1914) Translated by Allen H. Powles]
This mindset naturally led to a theory of pre-emption, which according to Bernhardi, goes as follows: "[The State] must, before all things, develop the attacking powers of its army, since a strategic defensive must often adopt offensive methods. . . and strike the first blow . . . Above all, a state which has objects to attain that cannot be relinquished, and is exposed to attacks by enemies more powerful than itself, is bound to act in this sense."
General Bernhardi also comments derisively on states whose peoples desire peace:
113. jexster - 8/11/2002 6:32:42 PM
"Since 1795, when Immanuel Kant published in his old age his treatise On Perpetual Peace, many have considered it an established fact that war is the destruction of all good and the origin of all evil …[But] this desire for peace has rendered most civilized nations anemic, and marks a decay of spirit and political courage such as has often been shown by a race of Epigoni. 'It has always been,' H[einrich] von Treitschke tells us, 'the weary, spiritless, and exhausted ages which have played with the dream of perpetual peace.'"
Robert Kagan has chided the gutless Europeans in much the same manner as Bernhardi upbraided his more fainthearted countrymen, even to the inclusion of a sarcastic reference to Kant: "It is time to stop pretending that Europeans and Americans share a common view of the world, or even that they occupy the same world. On the all-important question of power - the efficacy of power, the morality of power, the desirability of power - American and European perspectives are diverging. Europe is turning away from power, or to put it a little differently, it is moving beyond power into a self-contained world of laws and rules and transnational negotiation and cooperation. It is entering a post-historical paradise of peace and relative prosperity, the realization of Kant's 'Perpetual Peace.'"
Needless to say, Kagan, like Bernhardi, believes dreams of peace are a silly illusion; Americans, he thinks, correctly have "little to make them place their faith in international law and international institutions." Better stick with power, a totem which, as we have seen, Kagan bathes in an almost Freudian devotion. ["Power and Weakness" by Robert Kagan, Policy Review, June 2002]. The Werther Report
114. RickNelson - 8/12/2002 2:48:00 PM
The Agong visits the award winning long-house village of Long Bidian (up river from Long Atip-see map).There was a grant to spruce up the village and many beautiful traditional designs were painted throughout the long-house. The cerimonial King and Queen are said to have taken in their visit with grace and style.
While the Queen took time to walk the veranda and observe kitchens, fruit trees and visit, the king sought the company of the village head-man. The Agong spent a little time within his kitchen, observing and chatting freely, while obtaining some snacks. The style complimented and impressed all present. A very pleasant occasion.
From: The Star online
Tuesday, July 16, 2002
Ceremonial welcome in Sarawak for royal couple 
KUCHING: The Yang di-Pertuan Agong Tuanku Syed Sirajuddin Syed Putra Jamalullail and Raja Permaisuri Agong Tuanku Fauziah Tengku Abdul Rashid were accorded a ceremonial welcome when they arrived at the airport here for their first official visit to Sarawak.
They will tour a traditional longhouse, Rumah Panjang Long Bedian in Baram in the interior region of northern Sarawak, tomorrow.
115. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/13/2002 4:50:51 AM
Now this is the kind of news my person likes to be informed of.
116. Marc-Albert - 8/13/2002 3:00:47 PM
Sir Charles Brooke, G.C.M.G. Second Rajah of Sarawak.
Sarawak used to have its own "indigenous" rulers: the White Rajahs of Sarawak. Steven Runciman's The White Rajahs, is excellent, particularly for the founding period of the "Raj".
117. RickNelson - 8/13/2002 3:24:00 PM
Marc-Albert,
Sarawak has an rich history, have you visited yet? I've been twice, visiting my wifes family and all we could see during a month. It requires a minimum of a month to take in so much. The remnants of the former Rajah era are the Astana estate, Kuching museum, and many forts along the river tributaries. I've been to the museum and the fort in Marudi.
118. Marc-Albert - 8/13/2002 4:06:23 PM
No Rick. I never went to Asia. My limited knowledge of Sarawak is derived from a pen-pal from Kutching I used to correspond with (and exchange stamps) in the early 60s and the Runciman book, that I read avidly soon after it was published during those years (Rajah James steaming up-river in his paddle boat to fight pirates!)
Are the natives inhabitants happy with peninsular rule? I vaguely remember reading some UN-based criticism of some low-level human right abuses against Sarawak dissidents. Apparently Kuala Lumpur did not take kindly to secessionnist activities there or in Sabah.
119. RickNelson - 8/13/2002 6:47:35 PM
"Are the natives inhabitants happy with peninsular rule?"
There are many distinct native groups within Sarawak and Sabah respectively. The answer is that it depends which of these you belong. My wife’s tribe(and I am not speaking for them) might consider the rule to be semi-beneficial. They have gained toward education, which the esteem. They have gained toward connecting to new resources. However, they have lost much of their land and native customary rights. This has occurred since independence and acquisition of Sarawak by peninsular Malaysia in the early 60's. There are political ties strengthening between the two land masses as well.
Within Sabah the party, National or UMNO has a very strong presence now. When this happened semi-autonomy for Sabah ended. This is not desirable to all Sabahan, perhaps especially to the Kadazan. Within Sarawak, there is no such occurrence, yet!
The organized members of UMNO are always trying to avert autonomous leanings from up-and-coming deputy ministers, headmen, Temanengong, Pemancha or Penghulu (respectively, supreme, district and village chiefs).
If Sarawak has any hope of controlling more than the current 2% of its natural resource wealth it must attain autonomy. Not separation, they don't strive for that, separation is dissent, they want to have more self government of natural resources.
The K.L. government has long held power of decree over the national resources, but in this case it includes customary native rights, which have been wholly ignored.
120. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/16/2002 5:35:11 PM
121. concerned - 8/17/2002 12:34:23 PM
Hoogstraten "to buy" MiGs for Mugabe
I've posted here before regarding Mugabe's destruction of Zimbabwe by destroying its ability to raise food, and some from the Left have objected, claiming that what Mugabe is really doing, facts aside, is righting colonialist wrongs. What would they have to say about this base venality of Mugabe's?
122. jexster - 8/18/2002 5:51:54 AM
Back us against Saddam or else, US tells Arab states (Daily Telegraph)
Bahrain to Bush - Bent
Guess he got his answer.
123. Marc-Albert - 8/18/2002 5:01:38 PM
"American diplomats are sending an uncompromising message to Arab states: those who do not support the planned United States operation against Saddam Hussein will be treated as enemies."
Now that's pretty heavy styff. Who said that? American diplomats or the Daily Telegraph? I did read the rest of the DT article but there is absolutely nothing there that demonstrate the US indeed intends to treat "as enemies" any Arab state that does not back the operation.
If one is to believe the DT reporter, then Bahrain, that just declared against the operation, should be proclaimed an enemy of the United States of America any day now...
Another piece of crummy British journalism is the Sunday Observer article linked by Jexter three weeks ago (Saudi Arabia could fall to al-Qaeda)
If one is to believe that Guardian/Observer piece, Saudi Arabia is in a freefall: "Saudi Arabia is teetering on the brink of collapse"..."Anti-government demonstrations have swept the desert kingdom"..."Demonstrations across the kingdom broke out in March"..."Unrest in the east of the country rapidly escalated into nationwide protests against the royal family...
It does seem that it's only a matter of months, nay, weeks, before Saudi Arabia indeed falls to al-Qaeda or other revolutionaries.
The problem with the Guardian/Observer article is that it's been three weeks now, and nobody else seems to have noticed that "Saudi Arabia is teetering on the brink of collapse". Neither the world press nor the Saudis, who seem to be going agout their usual business, seem to have noticed yet what is so obvious to all those shrewd British reporters.
124. jexster - 8/18/2002 5:14:01 PM
Speak Up, Europe
Ivo Daalder and James Lindsay
Financial Times, August 8, 2002
125. marjoribanks - 8/18/2002 6:11:19 PM
I will be rather busy for the next few months, thus my presence here will be spotty. Out of habit, however, I will continue to monitor this thread.
--
I recently checked out Rajeev Srinivasan's columns and found that he's somewhat improved and matured as a commentator, and so is perhaps a bit less entertaining.
But on his pet topic, India versus China, he's on top form and pretty compelling. read this.
126. concerned - 8/19/2002 7:07:24 PM
Lefties approve of Zimbabwe ethnic cleansing
127. jexster - 8/19/2002 11:17:12 PM
THat's right white boy...get you honky ass out of those running short and over to the farm
128. jexster - 8/19/2002 11:17:34 PM
over to - "off de"
129. concerned - 8/20/2002 12:00:32 AM
Coming soon to Zim: The Big Hunger.
130. alistairConnor - 8/20/2002 12:03:31 AM
I will be rather busy for the next few months, thus my presence here will be spotty.
Juvenile acne. You'll grow out of it, Marj boy.
131. concerned - 8/20/2002 7:15:14 PM
'Funny' ideas about humor in Sweden, I'd say, from the Jerusalem Post:
Swedish TV apologizes for anti-Semitic slurs
By TOVAH LAZAROFF
Swedish Television has apologized for airing a show earlier this month in which Jews were accused of profiting from the Holocaust and were linked to the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center in New York. The controversy over the segment was reported in a number of Swedish papers.
"We do regret what was said," said Swedish Television's communications director, Helga Baagoe. "To say it was in bad taste is not strong enough."
Lisa Abramowicz, a board member of Stockholm's Jewish community, said that although the show Tredje Makten (Third Power), which airs on Wednesday nights at 10 p.m., is satirical, that segment crossed the line into anti-Semitism.
And there have been other anti-Semitic incidents in the Swedish media, Abramowicz said.
According to a transcript she provided, the segment narrated by a goldfish talks about the holocaust, "After all, this persecution did come up trumps it gave the Jews their own land..It isn't always a bad thing to be the victim of persecution."
The narrator continues, "And the German state and the Swiss banks have had to pay financial compensation amounting to hundreds of billions of dollars."
The narrator also said, "And let's face it: The Jews have never in their history been stronger than they are today. Incidentally, did you know that this fund was officially created in New York and was to be inaugurated in conjunction with the Jewish World Congress on the 11th of September 2001?" And then the screen showed a picture of the attack on the World Trade Center, Abramowicz said.
"It was shocking," she said. "There was no such fund created on September 11, 2001, and even if there were, what relevance would it have to the attack?"
132. stostosto - 8/20/2002 8:59:25 PM
Jaysus, how idiotic. I hadn't heard of that incident, but that very same show created a bit of a stir here in Denmark by "humorously" suggesting that the Danish tightening of our immigration regime was due to our love of pigs. You see, Muslims don't eat pork. And then they made an animated transformation of the leader of our xenophobic party into a pig.
They're not racist, or un-PC, I think. They're just massively untalented on that show. But it's no small irony that such a show can air on the public channel in self-perceived goody-goody PC Sween.
What's your take, Pelle? Are you finally gearing up to change your ways into something less otherwordly over there? A shattering of your status as "the Moral Superpower" in the offing, conducted by subversive fifth-columnists? (Notice, btw, that the apologising spokeswoman of the national TV, Helga Baagoe, has a Danish name..! Spooooooky!)
133. PelleNilsson - 8/20/2002 9:48:09 PM
sto
I haven't seen the program because I never watch television, except sports, but I've read about it and heard people talk about it. It seems there is no agenda involved, just massive lack of talent and judgement.
And we have, more or less, given up on the Moral Superpower thing years ago, but our neighbours haven't noticed. Of course, 400 years of Swedish general superiority will leave its marks.
134. robertjayb - 8/21/2002 2:43:26 AM
Guy must think he's John Ashcroft...
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Aug. 21 — President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan single-handedly enacted 29 amendments to his country's Constitution today, granting himself near-dictatorial powers.
135. marjoribanks - 8/21/2002 3:55:38 PM
The New York Review of books has two articles of interest to thread regulars in its current issue.
The piece on Stiglitz's book is good, the article by Pankaj Mishra on the Gujerat atrocities is superlative. I'm availabale to discuss the latter should there be any takers.
136. marjoribanks - 8/21/2002 3:58:41 PM
If anyone is interested, the now totally irritating Arundhati Roy is touring Pakistan and drawing big crowds with a quasi-populist, "don't trust your government" message to both Indians and Pakistanis.
Arundhati does Pak.
137. jexster - 8/21/2002 5:07:03 PM
panjak mishra?
Gujerat attrocities?
EEEK...no wonder I don't come around here much...I thought this was an International not a Wooly Wog thread...Jex repellent...EEEEEEEEEE
138. pseudoerasmus - 8/21/2002 8:27:17 PM
Briefly checking in: a grossly
underreported news item is
surely the government-controlled
Turkish ulema's decision to
henceforth permit menstruating
women to attend mosque prayer
services.... Now Jexster can
enter mosques at his pleasure
in Turkey.
139. pseudoerasmus - 8/21/2002 8:28:24 PM
(However, I am not sure
whether the Turkish
ulema's decision applies
to Jexster's exsphincteraneous
menses.)
140. concerned - 8/21/2002 10:31:33 PM
What would the Wahhabi Lobby have to say about that?
141. Andonly - 8/22/2002 12:18:04 AM
Thank you, Margarinespanks, for that Pankaj Mishra link. I like Mishra.
"On February 27, some of these [Hindu] activists were returning on a train from Ayodhya when a crowd of Muslims attacked and set fire to one of the cars just outside the town of Godhra in Gujarat."
Mention of this event was actually preceded by the word "allegedly" in an article in the FT yesterday. As in, 'train allegedly attacked by Muslims'.
There is of course no doubt about what Hindus did in return.
142. concerned - 8/22/2002 8:24:15 AM
It was only alleged to be a train since it was a little hard to tell afterwards, which probably resulted in the journalistic confusion you refer to.
143. concerned - 8/22/2002 8:26:18 AM
When you're starving for a MugabeMeal:
144. concerned - 8/22/2002 8:32:04 AM
145. concerned - 8/22/2002 8:36:21 AM
Say, 'progressives': what are your comments on Mugabe's land redistribution programs? How can enlightened socialism progress when Leftists always behave as if they are so ashamed of the results that they refuse to contribute to or critique the process?
146. concerned - 8/22/2002 8:48:55 AM
Buying the cattle is war veteran Passmore Chanyuka. He led farm invasions for the last two years and has been given a plot and wants to become a farmer. "I want the government to give us money so that we can be successful farmers," he says.
Ha ha ha ha!
147. stostosto - 8/22/2002 5:44:49 PM
Pelle #25332
And we have, more or less, given up on the Moral Superpower thing years ago, but our neighbours haven't noticed.
Perhaps it would help people's ability to notice if the perception wasn't so frequently fueled, like when Swedish minister of integration(?) Mona Sahlin caused a row this spring by criticising the Danish immigration policy in strongly moral terms. Of course, there are lots of people here who dearly cherish the good old stereotypes and jump at any such opportunity to pigeon-hole the Swedes as unbearable moralisers.
Such stuff invariably hits the front page of our most populist tabloid, Ekstra Bladet.
148. marjoribanks - 8/22/2002 5:52:56 PM
Hey Sto, I just heard that a rather hip young Indian writer, Tabish Khair, has upped and moved to, of all places, your own Copenhagen.
If he surfaces for a reading or something you should check him out. He's cheeky.
149. robertjayb - 8/22/2002 5:56:05 PM
"I want the government to give us money so that we can be successful farmers," he says.
Passmore has been reading up on American agribusiness.
150. concerned - 8/22/2002 6:00:04 PM
rjb -
Your wit is irony deficient.
151. jexster - 8/22/2002 6:24:26 PM
"[B]usharraf is My Terror Ally"
("IslamoFascist") Power Grab in Pakistan
"The Bush policy today is to punish its enemies with the threat of democracy and reward its friends with silence on democratization." T. Friedman
152. marjoribanks - 8/22/2002 6:33:51 PM
It's more than a bit ridiculous to call Musharraf an "Islamofascist", since he's about the strongest anti-jihadi bulwark that Pakistan has or has had in a good long time.
Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with his continued consolidation of sole power. He should be aided in this by the USA.
153. concerned - 8/22/2002 6:45:55 PM
Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with his continued consolidation of sole power.
I see several things wrong with his assuming dictatorial powers, which is not to say that his doing so may not be among the least of possible evils. After all, we are discussing one of the most backward places on earth.
One significant down side is that regurgito-Lefties may be encouraged to to incorporate this into their pantheon of Greek tragedies, as Jexster gives early signs of doing.
154. concerned - 8/22/2002 6:46:48 PM
one 'to' many.
156. stostosto - 8/22/2002 7:01:27 PM
one 'to' many.
and one 'too' too few.
marj:
Never heard of that Tabish Khair guy. Do you have a link? (I wonder how he managed to sneak in under our new! improved! immigration radar, btw).
157. marjoribanks - 8/22/2002 7:07:49 PM
Sto:
Khair.
159. PelleNilsson - 8/22/2002 10:02:29 PM
#25354 and 357 were move to the Inferno.
160. PelleNilsson - 8/22/2002 10:04:07 PM
marj
Pincher has resigned. Would you be prepared to co-host?
161. concerned - 8/22/2002 10:16:43 PM
My 25352 still awaits a substantive response.
162. Andonly - 8/22/2002 10:16:45 PM
AND the award for the day's Finest Dry Lines goes to...
...it's a tie! Ladies and Gentlemen, the award will be shared by Concerned, for Message # 25341, and Robertjayb, for Message # 25348.
Congratuations, gentlemen. In honor of your achievement you shall each receive All-You-Can-Eat passes for yourselves and three of your favorite local politicians, good at any Red Lobster; plus your choice of selected dry red or white wines from upper New York state; and a commemorative packet of silica.
Now let me conclude my remarks this evening by saying that the nsme "Passmore Chanyuka" is just flatulently antisemitic.
163. concerned - 8/22/2002 10:19:43 PM
Pelle -
marj should only be allowed to co host this thread if his personal abuse, vengeful tendencies and unreasoning prejudice can be restrained. Are you prepared to guarantee that?
164. PelleNilsson - 8/22/2002 10:30:37 PM
sto
I agree that Mona Sahlin wasn´t very tactful. She probably got her fingers slapped by prime minister Persson because she has been remarkably quiet since (on that issue, that is).
But it is not true, as many Danes seem to believe, that the debate on immigration here is somehow stifled just because it is less heated and, if I may say so, less vulgar, than in Denmark. We have already had your debate, more than ten years ago when Count Wachtmeister and his populist New Democrats were elected to parliament.
165. stostosto - 8/22/2002 11:56:23 PM
Pelle, it's definitely true that the common perception in Denmark, whether right or left, pro or contra xenophobism, is that the debate is and has been stifled in Sweden. I don't know what to think, really. Naturally, if you have found a formula of peaceful, fruitful and constructive co-existence in a multi-ethnic society, we have a lot to learn from you.
I fear, however, that the debate that you say you have already had ten years ago (when there was also a debate here, it has been a constant waxing and waning at least since 1985 when we had an incident at a center for asylum seekers), has yet to fully be enacted.
I am not all that outraged about Mona Sahlin, btw. I think it's fair to criticise the Danish tightening, it really does impinge on people's rights. For heaven's sake you can't marry a foreigner and bring him/her to the country, for instance! In order to do that, you would have to submit yourself to the mercy of a suspicious bunch of immigration officials who will scrutinise you and your spouse and the reasons for you wanting to live in this country instead of the spouse's country and establish that you have means to provide for yourself and spouse, and a "reasonable" place of residence, and that you are both over 24 years of age, and that your combined attachment to this country (including extended family) is greater than the attachment to the spouse's country of origin.
There is certainly room for reasonable criticism.
An excellent brief article on the new Danish immigration laws, including the rift with Sweden, courtesy of Neue Zürcher Zeitung (don't worry, it's in English)
166. stostosto - 8/23/2002 12:19:22 AM
But, whatever else you may think of the Danish tightening, it works as intended. The number of immigration whether through family reunification or refugees has dropped sharply since its inception. The debate now is how the budgetary savings -- quite significant savings actually estimated at ½-1% of GDP -- should be spent. Lower taxes? Better health care? Consolidating public finances?
Ah, there will always be pesky problems and contentious issues, that's politics for you...
---
I will say one more thing, because I think I should in the spirit of honesty: I think it's actually a positive development that we have fewer foreigners coming in. I don't say this lightly. But I have become wary of some of the Muslim currents in our immigrant population, and also some of the general attitude towards this society among their youth.
I don't want to have students in our high schools criticise standard curriculum modern literature on the basis of the Koran, or take exception to Darwin, or refuse to "bare" themselves in gymnastics lessons.
I am appalled at what some extremist groups will spout of sick theories of the Khalifate, and openly calling for the murder of Jews, citing the Koran.
I resent that some of their imams, and not the least outspoken ones are teaching intolerance and are intimidating fellow Muslims into supporting them, or at least acquiescing in their excesses.
Then there are arranged marriages, sexual oppression, and a galling contempt for girls among young men. One result, and this is sadly true, is the introduction of the hitherto unknown phenomenon of gang rape here.
Much of this behavioural pattern can be explained as a reaction to Danish society's rejection and marginalisation of these people due to intolerance or racism, overt but mostly covert. That doesn't really help the situation though.
167. stostosto - 8/23/2002 12:20:11 AM
But, whatever else you may think of the Danish tightening, it works as intended. The number of immigration whether through family reunification or refugees has dropped sharply since its inception. The debate now is how the budgetary savings -- quite significant savings actually estimated at ½-1% of GDP -- should be spent. Lower taxes? Better health care? Consolidating public finances?
Ah, there will always be pesky problems and contentious issues, that's politics for you...
---
I will say one more thing, because I think I should in the spirit of honesty: I think it's actually a positive development that we have fewer foreigners coming in. I don't say this lightly. But I have become wary of some of the Muslim currents in our immigrant population, and also some of the general attitude towards this society among their youth.
I don't want to have students in our high schools criticise standard curriculum modern literature on the basis of the Koran, or take exception to Darwin, or refuse to "bare" themselves in gymnastics lessons.
I am appalled at what some extremist groups will spout of sick theories of the Khalifate, and openly calling for the murder of Jews, citing the Koran.
I resent that some of their imams, and not the least outspoken ones are teaching intolerance and are intimidating fellow Muslims into supporting them, or at least acquiescing in their excesses.
Then there are arranged marriages, sexual oppression, and a galling contempt for girls among young men. One result, and this is sadly true, is the introduction of the hitherto unknown phenomenon of gang rape here.
Much of this behavioural pattern can be explained as a reaction to Danish society's rejection and marginalisation of these people due to intolerance or racism, overt but mostly covert. That doesn't really help the situation though.
168. stostosto - 8/23/2002 12:21:58 AM
Oops, double post, sorry. I was "timed out" in my first posting attempt, so I tried again.
169. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/23/2002 3:08:32 AM
Being quiet the international connosewer, the good doctor shall of course serve as host of this domicile provided the other wight step aside.
Unlike Marjorie, yours truly is known thruout the so-called "Mote" as impartial and suave or fair.
Need the rest of you be reminded.
Dr. Xavier T. Coltrane, Conscious of the Mote
170. PelleNilsson - 8/23/2002 9:21:08 AM
sto
Naturally, if you have found a formula of peaceful, fruitful and constructive co-existence in a multi-ethnic society, we have a lot to learn from you.
No I don't claim that, not by a long shot, but I maintain that, just because the debate here is not as viscious as it is in Denmark, it is "stifled". The immigration question is simply not a hot issue here although, as you probably know, we have elections coming up in three weeks.
171. concerned - 8/23/2002 9:41:31 AM
The immigration question is simply not a hot issue here...
Can you elaborate a bit on the factors which lead to such a divergent perception as compared to the environment Stos is describing?
172. PelleNilsson - 8/23/2002 11:09:56 AM
It is not an easy thing ta anlyse. But you should know that Denmark and Sweden, although superficially similar - monarchies, parlamentary democracies, welfare states, mutually intelligble (with some difficulty) languages - there are substantial differences as well. Sweden has raw materials and lots of heavy industry, Denmark is more oriented towards agriculture, food processing and services such as shipping. The historical experience is different as well. Denmark dominated Scandinavia until the 16th century, but since then it steadily lost territory to Sweden and Prussia/Germany.
Sweden was also an emigration country. Around the turn of the last century about 25% of the population emigrated to the US. The emigration was largely poverty-driven. Denmark was a richer country then and so less people left. The great emigration is still a living memory here. It is possible (although this is pure speculation) that Swedes have a bit more emphaty with people who seek a better future in a foreign country.
But we also have a long history of immigration It started in the 1950s with Italians who were recruited to jobs in Swedish industry and refugees from the Hungarian uprising in 1956 and continued with waves of Jugoslavs, Turks and Iranians (they came in two waves, first the ones who fled the Shah, then thos wo fled Khomeini).
173. PelleNilsson - 8/23/2002 11:26:41 AM
But in the immediate past, the most important event was the one I referred to in Message # 25363. The populist agitation led to some very ugly incidents such as fire-bombings of immigrant hostels and murders of immigrants just because they were immigrants. The general public was shocked. Such things do not fit in (to put it mildly) with Swedes' perception of their society. As a result the populist party disintegrated in the next elections.
That is not to say that things are idyllic here, They are not. But the debate on immigration and integration is no longer dominated by xenophobic, populist demagoguery. It is now more seen as a technical thing. Given that the situation is what it is, how should we best handle it?
174. concerned - 8/23/2002 11:57:33 AM
Mugabe Dissolves Cabinet in Shock Move
"His Excellency, the President, Comrade R.G. Mugabe, today, 23rd August, 2002, dissolved cabinet," said the statement signed by George Charamba, Mugabe's spokesperson.
"I think there is a realisation on his part that legally he was on slippery ground," said Lovemore Madhuku, chairperson of the National Constitutional Assembly, a coalition of civic groups. Madhuku said he did not expect any major shifts in policy even if new faces were brought into cabinet.
Mugabe on 'slippery legal ground'?!? Not possible. He is the law.
'His Excellency, Comrade Mugabe': His 'progressive' supporters have to love that.
175. concerned - 8/23/2002 12:15:31 PM
I have seen little criticism of Japanese immigration policies here, a policy which pretty much denies anybody not of Japanese extraction full citizenship status, yet nobody appears to felt that there is anything unusual about this, let alone publicly accusing Japan, as a leading industrial nation, of demonstrating cultural insensitivity, let alone implementing xenophobic or discriminatory policies toward immigrants. Of course, there is also little, if any discussion elsewhere about this, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
176. concerned - 8/23/2002 12:16:27 PM
...appears to feel...
177. Marc-Albert - 8/23/2002 2:50:18 PM
About 200 Kurds landed on the beaches of Santa Maria di Leuca this morning. They will most likely attempt to get into Britain, Sweden, Denmark, Norway or Germany as soon as they can.
By 2020 or before, I would think that the majority of Kurds will be living in Western Europe. Je vous souhaite bien du plaisir.
178. concerned - 8/24/2002 3:22:54 AM
Saddam killed Abu Nidal over al-Qa'eda row
This would weigh in favor of the US overthrowing the Saddam regime, since Saddam is training or attempting to train Islamic extremists.
179. concerned - 8/26/2002 6:16:51 PM
What Denmark can teach America about dealing with Muslims
Reading this article, I can understand Sto's viewpoint more clearly.
I found the following to be particularly disturbing:
Self-imposed isolation. Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.
Seeking Islamic law . Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark's Muslim population grows large enough - a not-that remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in forty years will be Muslim.
I really am starting to believe that the Left has no commitment to the separation of Church and State in actuality but simply want to use it to bludgeon Christians with, or they would be much more concerned about Muslim intentions to introduce religious laws in other countries.
180. jexster - 8/26/2002 7:13:09 PM
Holy Haj Batman!
Yes BoyBlunder?
LONDON (Reuters) - Osama bin Laden ( news - web sites) is firmly back in command of al Qaeda and the group is digging in for guerrilla attacks on U.S. troops in Afghanistan ( news - web sites), an Arab journalist with close ties to the militant's associates said on Tuesday.
181. concerned - 8/26/2002 7:19:05 PM
You don't really believe that, jexster.
182. PelleNilsson - 8/26/2002 7:28:27 PM
Oh, dear, Daniel Pipes again. That chap is really deteriorating. It seems this former scholar will put his name to any kind of gibberish as long as it is anti-Muslim.
I'm fairly sure that sto would be horrified to be placed in the same box as the co-author, Lars Hedegaard.
183. concerned - 8/26/2002 7:33:30 PM
Pelle -
Are you doubting the statistics he mentions?
184. PelleNilsson - 8/26/2002 7:37:03 PM
I don't doubt that you don't doubt them.
185. concerned - 8/26/2002 7:38:49 PM
Pelle -
It sounds as if you are not very concerned about the social reality in Denmark, to me. You have your preconceptions, and they are enough for you.
186. concerned - 8/26/2002 7:40:21 PM
Can you present a case that there is no cause for concern in Denmark, Pelle?
187. concerned - 8/26/2002 7:42:17 PM
Or have I missed something? Is it usual to pass laws favoring one religion or another in European countries?
188. concerned - 8/26/2002 7:51:48 PM
Who lost Denmark?;)
189. PelleNilsson - 8/26/2002 7:52:11 PM
It is not unheard of. An extract from the Danish constitution of 1992:
Section 4 [State Church]
The Evangelical Lutheran Church shall be the Established Church of Denmark, and, as such, it shall be supported by the State.
190. concerned - 8/26/2002 8:06:43 PM
Of course, something may occur to moderate the Islamism of Denmarks's immigrants. However, that trend is not apparent to me, yet. I would hardly claim a triumph of 'multiculturalism' in a country if the eventual result was its governance by an intolerant theocracy.
191. robertjayb - 8/26/2002 10:59:26 PM
Bushies, Oilygarchs, diss renewable energy...
Aug. 27, 2002 | Johannesburg, SOUTH AFRICA (AP) -- To the outrage of environmentalists, the United States, Saudi Arabia and other nations at a U.N. summit worked Tuesday to water down promises to rapidly expand the use of clean, renewable energy technologies around the globe.
192. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/27/2002 1:40:47 AM
193. jexster - 8/27/2002 1:45:40 AM
An appalling show of incompetent leadership, the blunder continues...
Bush Bumbles On: Blair Complains Bush Has Done Nothing To Make His Case, Support His Friends
194. concerned - 8/28/2002 1:07:35 AM
Arab League to participate in Holocaust denial symposium
What's really neat about Holocaust denial is that if you can get people to buy into it, is that you can exterminate Jews again and again, and profess to have forgotten about any such incidents.
So, to those into Holocaust denial, when you see pictures like the following:
just pretend that no Jews ever died in places like Belsen and Auschwitz. All such pictures were faked by the International Cartel of Jews or Elders of Zion or whatever shit you're deluding yourself this week.
195. concerned - 8/28/2002 1:08:59 AM
oops - typos
196. RustlerPike - 8/29/2002 5:41:09 PM
Interesting events in Kenya.
197. wabbit - 8/29/2002 6:24:07 PM
I've recreated this thread in hopes that this past week's error message problem will be alleviated. Please see Message # 4064 in thread 27. The same has been done here.
198. RustlerPike - 8/30/2002 11:00:15 PM
Farty-fart.
199. jexster - 9/1/2002 5:01:25 PM
Jexster Wonk's Tips for Research on the Net
Today's Tip - Bush Foreign Policy
Keywords & Phrases - unyielding, disengaged, "widening gulf", "support has evaporated", dismissive, distorted, confusing, inconsistent, "at war with itself", adrift, estranged, ignored, unsure, "uncomfortable impasse", despair, "not helpful", "in for a rough ride", shifted, rejiggered, died, "human rights abuses", "anti-democratic practices", betrayal, diengaged, "ruputured relations", "strained ties", "fret away", unilateralism, "no real rapport", embarrassing, immodest, arrogant, disarray, cowboy, "too many ideologues", "too many people with baggage", uncertain, "twists and turns", fig leaf, unreal, teetering, "edge of failure", railing, undermining, untrustworthy
"Dallas syndrome" - A JexieWonk Favorite!
"Bevo Steershit" - Bonus Tip
"a shambles" - Double Value Bonus Tip
Sources - extensive interviews with foreign officials and experts in seven key countries in Europe, Asia and Latin America, along with interviews with administration officials, experts and diplomats in Washington
200. concerned - 9/2/2002 5:58:13 PM
Zambia refuses GM 'poison'
Interesting how sub-saharan African dictatorships are picking up on the extremist idea that genetically modified food is unfit to eat, regardless of the fact that people in the West do so, to the extent that they are allowing millions of their own citizens to starve to death.
Does the Left see anything wrong with that? I wonder, sometimes, if they prefer human death and misery.
201. concerned - 9/2/2002 6:00:55 PM
This, of course, begs the question of how these Leftist dictatorships have been so incompetent as not to be able to feed their people in the first place, so we're talking about almost unimaginable incompetence and corruption, all in the name of socialism.
202. concerned - 9/2/2002 6:23:16 PM
Funny. He doesn't look a bit like Marie Antoinette.
203. PelleNilsson - 9/2/2002 8:02:12 PM
On what do you conclude that Mwanawasa is a socialist? Give us your analysis. Here, as a starting point, is a cite from www.socialistworker.co.uk
Even the EU's monitors expressed reservations about the election, which saw Levy Mwanawasa elected with less than 30 percent of the vote. However, because Mwanawasa is a friend of the multinationals, the EU shut up and defended the result. There were no sanctions when Mwanawasa declared that anyone who protested faced the death penalty.
204. jexster - 9/3/2002 7:11:39 PM
BERLIN (AP) - Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder rebuffed calls by Britain for Europe to help the United States against Iraq, saying Wednesday that Germany won't tone down its opposition to military action and won't "submit" to Washington.
In blunt comments, Schroeder said Tony Blair ( news - web sites) does not speak for all Europe, a day after the British prime minister declared Iraq "a real and unique threat" to world security and said the United States "should not have to face this issue alone."
The exchange highlighted international opposition to the prospect of a U.S. attack on Iraq — despite Blair's attempts to rally support for Washington.
"Friendship cannot mean that you do what the friend wants even if you have another opinion," he told a news conference in Berlin. "Anything else would not be friendship, but submission — and I would consider that wrong."
"With all respect for Tony Blair: Just like anyone else, he will not speak for Europe alone on this issue or on others," he said. "We have absolutely no reason to change our well-founded position. Under my leadership, Germany will not take part in an intervention in Iraq."
Schroeder also confirmed that Germany would withdraw six armored personnel carriers equipped to detect nuclear, chemical and biological warfare from Kuwait if the United States launches an attack on Iraq. The vehicles were deployed as part of the U.S.-led war on terrorism
205. TabouliJones - 9/5/2002 5:10:02 PM
PE,
A month or so ago you recommended The Oligarchs: Wealth and Power in the New Russia by David Hoffman. I read it. It is excellent. Thanks.
I just started Stiglitz' Globalization and its Discontents, also based on your recommendation here. So far, it has been quite educational.
I don't mean to pester, but if you have any other current books on economic history to recommend it would be much appreciated. Thanks.
206. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 9/7/2002 12:49:22 AM
The good doctor recommends The Elusive Quest for Growth
a must read for students of the "so-called" dismal science.
207. concerned - 9/8/2002 10:14:29 AM
Re. 203 -
The blind acceptance of such blatant tripe by Levy Mwanawasa about GM good could only have come from the strong continued influence of the wacky Left, no?
There is no question that Zambia's miserable economic condition has been brought about by statist policies, even though recent efforts toward privatization offer hopes of possibly reversing this trend.
208. marjoribanks - 9/8/2002 1:58:23 PM
Ahmed Rashid takes stock of the situation one year after 9/11.
209. PelleNilsson - 9/9/2002 4:38:26 PM
I knew that Bombay has become Mumbai, but not that Madras is now Chennai.
In India's name game, cities are the big losers
210. concerned - 9/10/2002 9:46:47 AM
The Carter Administration is more culpable than even I had thought regarding encouraging Islamic fundamentalism in Afghanistan (apart from their groundbreaking Iranian efforts with regard to this.)
excerpted:
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of The pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Weak and provocative. Jimmuh Cahtuh: world class wussy. He had incompetent foreign policy down to an art.
211. concerned - 9/10/2002 9:55:29 AM
Jimmuh Cahtuh: Truly, he is the Godfather of Islamic Fundamentalism.
212. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 10:19:12 AM
Message # 210
It's ironic how Concerned has now picked up a well-circulated left-wing shibboleth in favour of some right-wing political purpose.
Brzezinski bragged in a Le Monde interview that he deliberately provoked the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by beginning a programme of assistance to the mujahiddin in July 1979, five months before the Soviet invasion of the country.
This boasting has been picked up by countless left-wing websites, and it was once aired in this very thread, about two years ago.
Unfortunately for these left-wingers, plus Concerned, Brzezinski's boasting is just that, boasting. Nothing the USA did provoked the Soviets. We know this now from the Soviet archives.
213. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 10:21:40 AM
The most interesting piece of document from these archives is the report submitted to the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and written by none other than Yuri Andropov, Andrei Gromyko and two other members of the Politburo.
Now, Concerned will have no knowledge of any of the events referenced therein, but suffice it to say, the report justifies the Soviet invasion by arguing, in essence, the Soviet leadership found the Khalq faction of the Afghan communists, then in power in Kabul, to be much too independent and unpredictable. Thus, the Soviets did a "regime change": the Parcham faction of the Afghan communists, totally compliant toward Moscow, was put in power.
Not once is the Afghan resistance mentioned anywhere in the document. That's understandable because the Afghan resistance was tiny before the Soviet invasion and did not grow into a serious force until after the invasion. In other words, the Soviets weren't provoked into invasion by anything the USA did.
Message # 211: "Jimmuh Cahtuh: Truly, he is the Godfather of Islamic Fundamentalism."
Sorry, but Reagan is. The assistance to the Afghan resistance was minimal before and even after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. It really hit the sky under Reagan, and it was under Reagan that the USA deliberately funnelled funds, via Pakistan, to the most radical Islamist mujahiddin groups, instead of the nationalist and royalist factions which were not Islamists at all. And it was the Reagan administration who looked the other way as their chums the Saudis recruited and financed the real fanatics from the Arab countries to fight in Afghanistan.
214. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 10:24:02 AM
Addendum:
"....the Soviets weren't provoked into invasion by anything the USA did....."
with respect to supporting the Afghan resistance.
215. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 10:26:01 AM
errata:
Not once is the US support to the Afghan resistance mentioned anywhere in the document.
216. concerned - 9/10/2002 10:35:27 AM
PE ignores the role the Carter administration played during the end of the Shah's rule, which is the primary reason I term Carter 'The Godfather of Islamic Fundamentalism'.
...instead of the nationalist and royalist factions which were not Islamists at all.
They also could not put up an effective resistance to the Soviet occupation. So, what would PE's preferred solution have been in Reagan's place, having inherited the mess from the previous administration which he has just claimed has been nearly completely ineffective in accomplishing anything but immuring the US into a state of opposition to the Soviets? Tucked his tail between his legs and run?
217. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 10:38:43 AM
Message # 167 (Stostosto)
I will say one more thing, because I think I should in the spirit of honesty: I think it's actually a positive development that we have fewer foreigners coming in. I don't say this lightly. But I have become wary of some of the Muslim currents in our immigrant population, and also some of the general attitude towards this society among their youth......
218. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 10:51:10 AM
Message # 216
"PE ignores the role the Carter administration played during the end of the Shah's rule, which is the primary reason I term Carter 'The Godfather of Islamic Fundamentalism'.
You made this claim several months ago in another thread (Islamism? Israel-Palestine?) and I refuted it there comprehensively. The gist of my refutation was: the fundamentalists were able to seize power only after the Iranian armed forces sided with them. The Iranian army, created by the Shah and trained by the USA, was not a bunch of Islamists. But they found the fundamentalists much less frightening than instability. Instability in Iran had led to two things: revolt by ethnic Kurds, Azeris and Turkomen; and a military threat from Iraq.
[the nationalist and royalist factions which were not Islamists at all] also could not put up an effective resistance to the Soviet occupation.
Don't argue with me over Afghanistan, you know nothing.
The reality is the exact opposite of what you said. The mujahiddin faction that received the lion's share of US financial assistance, the radical-fundamentalist Hisb-i-Islami, was also the one with the SMALLEST power base inside Afghanistan. This faction was literally nothing but the money it received from the outside. It didn't do very much fighting until AFTER the Soviets withdrew in 1989 and the pro-Soviet Kabul government collapsed in 1992. Throughout most of the 1978-92 war, Hisb-i-Islami basically stockpiled weapons, assassinated moderate leaders of the resistance, played politics in Pakistan, and waited for the right moment to spring into real action. And that was in 1992, when Hisb-i-Islami turned on all the other factions and launched the Afghan civil war.
219. concerned - 9/10/2002 10:53:41 AM
PE appears to accuse Brzezinski of outright lying when Zbigniew repeatedly claims that the Carter administration was specifically funding the mujahideen (Islamic fundamentalists), without mentioning any of the other groups that PE brings up.
Now, I don't have much trouble believing Zbigniew was a fool, but strongly doubt he is retailing such a blatant falsehood as PE tries to make it seem.
220. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 10:54:48 AM
I am not absolving the Carter administration of some responsibility for the Afghanistan problem. But Carter must be reproached in the context of the entire episode of western appeasement of the Soviet Union known as "détente" and "Ostpolitik". Nixon, Ford, Carter and Western European fellators of the USSR all deserve blame for creating an atmosphere in the USSR could be so audacious.
221. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 11:00:49 AM
Message # 219: "PE appears to accuse Brzezinski of outright lying when Zbigniew repeatedly claims that the Carter administration was specifically funding the mujahideen (Islamic fundamentalists)...."
Don't be such a cunt.
I did not say and do not say Brzezinski was lying. I believe him when he says the public version of when the USA began funding the mujahiddin is false and that the USA actually began funding the mujahiddin five months before the Soviet invasion. Again, I believe him. I repeat again: I believe him. Do you want another repetition? I believe him.
What I dismiss is his own assessment of what this early funding accomplished. He says it provoked a Soviet invasion. He is just being a self-congratulatory blow-hard braggart. (Brzezinski brought down the Soviet Union!)
Well, we know that this early funding didn't provoke the Soviets, because an internal report within the Soviet leadership from December 1979 reveals to us that the Soviets were motivated to invade by the erratic and independent behaviour of their own client regime in Afghanistan.
222. concerned - 9/10/2002 11:14:47 AM
Well, we know that this early funding didn't provoke the Soviets, because an internal report within the Soviet leadership from December 1979 reveals to us that the Soviets were motivated to invade by the erratic and independent behaviour of their own client regime in Afghanistan.
Well, thanks for the link. I'm not inclined to doubt the substance of this report, given its provenance.
However, putting Nixon on a plane with Carter wrt the Soviet bloc is risible when one considers the instability of purpose as well as the sheer fecklessness to which Carter's foreign 'policy' in general was prone.
223. pseudoerasmus - 9/10/2002 11:16:54 AM
Continuing with Message # 217. Now, I've always been sympathetic to anti-immigrant rhetoric; after all, most immigrants are generally the scum of the societies they come from, not their best and brightest. (There are significant exceptions to this.) But the immigrants that Western Europe gets from the Middle East and North Africa are really the most backward imaginable, and in many European countries they make a disproportionate contribution to the criminality statistics.
However, in the case of Denmark, there is some ambiguity.
In Message # 179, Concerned quoted from an article on Muslim immigrants in Denmark by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaaard. In Message # 182, Pelle expresses scepticism at some of their claims, and Concerned asked in Message # 183, "Are you doubting the statistics he mentions?"
Well, a Dane argues that in the case of the criminal statistics, Pipes and Hedegaaard have outright fabricated their claims.
Engaging in crime: Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark’s 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country’s convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, dispropo