Ando:
Begin was not commander of the 101st, and was not associated with Kibya. That paragraph from little Johnny Hamid's site was about Sharon. As for some of the Etzel (they were called 'Irgun' - 'organization' - by the British - but that's only the first word in their name, and Etzel is the acronym they were known by) being hanged after independence - nuh uh. Never happened. They all have streets named after them in Ramat Aviv.
8461. joezan - 4/15/2002 11:44:58 PM
Pike:
Did you make it to court?
8462. sakonige - 4/15/2002 11:48:20 PM
Message # 8457
I didn't make a threat against you. I said I hoped one of your children would become a Muslim and bomb you to your reward in Paradise.
8463. joezan - 4/15/2002 11:50:43 PM
sak:
Oh - alrightythen.
8464. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:09:24 AM
sak -
Read my latest post in religion. I'm throwing up, for discussion, the idea that we start passing laws declaring that all language in religious texts which incites criminal and discriminatory behavior, particularly against non-believers of said religion, be disallowed from said religious teachings.
It's not as if others from the Left haven't wanted to fuck with Christianity to a much larger extent than this, so don't shit me with the 'I'm shocked' routine, anybody.
8465. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:14:13 AM
To cavilers: If you're not up for religious cannibalism, human sacrifice, bestiality, et al., why are you siding with those whose religion calls for murdering all nonbelievers?
8466. sakonige - 4/16/2002 1:19:41 AM
concerned -
Why not just outlaw religion altogether? That would be simpler.
8467. sakonige - 4/16/2002 1:21:20 AM
Amid the ruins of Jenin, the grisly evidence of a war crime
8468. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 1:45:56 AM
Did you make it to court?
Nope. But the lawyer says if I write an excuse and ask for a new date it'll be OK. I'll tell them my lawyer is to blame (which is not far from the truth, actually. After all, even if I didn't make it, he was supposed to. And he didn't, because - long story).
They may charge me for wasting their time.
8469. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:00:29 AM
I must say, never in the history of warfare has there been a war crime so eagerly anticipated before, during and after it supposedly happened, as Jenin. The battle of Jenin was purposely stage managed by the Pals so that it would turn into a massacre that The Independent would make a feast over.
Muhammad a-Durah. Beit Jalla. Nativity Church. Jenin. What do you expect the IDF to do? What would any other army have done? The murderers of your children hole up in Jenin RC. You try to go in without mass destruction. They kill 23 of your soldiers. So you fucking let loose. So we didn't use F-16s. We used D-9s. Fuck Yasir Arafat for encouraging his men (men?) to use their own women and children as human shields. Fuck the Palestinians for agreeing to do it, the poor bastards.
Saddam Hussein used the same trick in the Gulf War, with that command and control center he turned into a shelter: I don't think anyone has figured the ruse out to this very day. This all reeks of a Saddam/Arafat play.
8470. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:35:40 AM
I have a feeling that we are going to be treated to several long weeks of Palestinians digging down into the rubble of Jenin with their bare hands and pulling out bodies. The IDF may have fallen into a trap - not so much by killing the fuckers, as by trying to cover it up afterwards.
This is starting to look like a major disaster for Sharon. But I could be wrong.
This TNR report is also interesting, though a few days old. In case anyone was wondering how the Pals happened to come to the Church of the Nativity:
As recently as one month ago you could find Ibrahim Ebayat, leader of Bethlehem's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and his gang of gunmen hanging out around the Church of the Nativity, boasting that "the Israelis would never dare come into this area--it would be a propaganda defeat for them in front of the world." And indeed, four weeks ago when Israeli tanks entered Bethlehem, they refrained from invading the old part of the city, emboldening Ebayat's forces. But this time Ebayat and his men--along with fighters in Nablus and Ramallah--fell into what looks like an Israeli trap. Tanks, armored personnel carriers, snipers, and infantrymen have caged the guerrillas into each of these sites--Manger Square in Bethlehem, the casbah in Nablus, and Al Manara Square in Ramallah. "The Israelis played it smart," says one Palestinian journalist. "All the gunmen from Fatah fell into the trap. They have killed many of the leaders, and many of the rest are surrounded."
8471. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 4:20:18 AM
Joe's so cool. I was certain the Axis of Evil would have a go at him sooner or later. He's cool and shy. If I was a woman I'd want him. Women love the shy types.
8472. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 4:45:01 AM
You know, I must say this: Arafat and Saddam and Bin Laden are a trio of dramatic geniuses. I'm serious. Think of the images these guys created: the burning oil wells of Kuwait... the planes ramming into the World Trade Center... the boy shot dead by 'Israeli' gunmen in Gaza as the Italian film crew happened to have its camera fixed on him... and now the blackened corpses of Jenin.
They are very good at what they are doing, these people. Hitler, too, was very good at stage managing. Churchill personality and speeches were sublimely dramatic. Herzl was actually a playwright: that is probably why he had his dramatic beard, and why we have pictures of him in dramatic poses. That is why he went to meet with the sultans and kaisers: because he created a role for himself and acted it. He was not afraid to do drama on a worldwide scale. You need masses in order to make great political changes, and masses are won over, and made enthusiastic, and driven to action, through drama.
But look at the US and Israel now. What could possibly be less fulfilling, aesthetically, than those black and white explosions filmed from the planes' bomb bays? What a total fiasco, theater wise! Where is the American and Israeli drama - other than in their scenes of bereavement and loss? Even the Hizbullah films its every katyusha. Why don't we have films of Israeli special forces in action? What kind of morons are running this show?
>>>
8473. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 4:46:31 AM
>>>
I think IDF spokesman Kitrey is, or should be, on his way out. A brilliant advertiser, Moti Morel, was recently hired to be special advisor to the Israeli government on its PR, but he doesn't seem to have made much of a difference yet.
For a people famed for their artistic and communication ability, Israel is doing a remarkably bad propaganda job. Bunch of ugly talking heads with bad English is all we can come up with. Oh yeah, and one smarmy guy called Netanyahu. A walking oil slick.
One big problem: we have lost all sense of glory. Men can no longer be heroes, because they would have to be special for that, and we don't do special anymore. We do equal, remember? Men are just male people. Women can't be heroes, because you always wind up feeling sorry for them when they die. We're so fucking advanced, we've lost our virility, our honor, our dignity even. Glory? Another macho concept. Who needs it? We're in it for the equality.
Well, turns out that a sense of glory and drama is essential for victory. If it's all the same to you, if you're beyond those childish concepts - you've lost.
8474. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 5:01:27 AM
This kills me. You check into your regular porn site, and what do you get? Candles, and a message saying the site is closed for Memorial Day.
Only in Israel.
8475. PelleNilsson - 4/16/2002 6:03:07 AM
From the Economist:
... senior Israeli and Palestinian delegations, with Yossi Beilin and Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) in the teams, met at Taba to try to work out an agreement. They got far closer than Mr Barak and Mr Arafat had at Camp David. The two teams exchanged ideas, presented maps, and bargained thoughtfully.
.. nothing was officially written down. But fortunately Miguel Moratinos, the European Union's envoy to the Middle East, was an observer at the conference, taking notes. These, after consultations with both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides, were prepared as an EU “non-paper”, so called, and published last February by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
The Moratinos non-paper
8476. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 7:52:06 AM
An example of how the NYTimes editorizes on its front page.
BUSH SENDS AIDE TO SPEAK AT RALLY TO QUELL A GROWING FUROR
...as if, the liberal NYTimes knows or cares what conservatives think.
Only interested in an attack on President Bush.
8477. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/16/2002 7:59:49 AM
8478. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:49:00 AM
Your Tax Dollars At Work in Jenin - Lives Reduced to Rubble target=NEW
8479. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:51:18 AM
...as if, the liberal NYTimes knows or cares what conservatives think.
Reply 1 - Posted by: pub_crawler, 4/16/2002 2:52:19 AM
Nuke Mecca.
As if...
8480. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:58:17 AM
From the NyT Article above -
"But even as Mr. Wolfowitz spoke, Secretary Powell was announcing that he would meet on Wednesday with Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader who is the focus of the conservatives' ire."
This is the same nut case that ordered a CIA brown op on Hans Blix, head of UN's Iraq Weapons Inspectorate.
8481. jexster - 4/16/2002 9:02:35 AM
So much for the "moral clarity" required of an honest broker.
Moral muddle, dishonest broker, geopolitical incompetent.
8482. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 9:20:10 AM
DRUDGE has a number of links to leftist, neo-Nazi British newspapers on the battle of Jenin.
The power of the bulldozer.
8483. jexster - 4/16/2002 9:42:47 AM
Their first tents were erected pretty much at the same time the United Nations (news - web sites) was founded, on the premise that wars of conquest should become a relic of history.
Until the Jewish Fascists Came
8484. transient1a - 4/16/2002 9:46:43 AM
Yes, especially the one from the Guardian:
GUARDIAN: THE LUNAR LANDSCAPE THAT WAS THE JENIN REFUGEE CAMP...
You should read it carefully.
8485. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:09:40 AM
Bush Policy Shift 4,900
After the crowds had dispersed, after Paul Wolfowitz returned to Condo in tears from the boos he received, after Bush hailed the Israeli "withdrawal", Bush called Sharon to tell him that "immediately" meant "now" but that "is" didn't mean "is"
8486. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:20:58 AM
There is such a thing as the freedom of exhaustion. Some people are so worn down by the yoke of oppression that they give up... the oppressed must never allow the conscience of the oppressor to slumber... To accept injustice or segregation passively is to say to the oppressor that his actions are morally right.
Martin Luther King
8487. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:21:40 AM
No sleep for RebbePike
8488. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:25:09 AM
8489. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 10:31:25 AM
PoJ: try doing target="new". even jexster has got the hang of it. You do this: 
This is off topic, but: does anyone know what happens when you take, say, turkey breast that's been defrosted and freeze it again by mistake, then defrost again? Is the result dangerous?
Please answer before I cook and eat it. If sakko says it's safe, I'll be sure to dump it all in the garbage, of course.
8490. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:34:35 AM
Joe,
No doubt Arqhi can explain this seeming incongruity.
The guy in the picture is a sicko. His child should be taken away from him if I were Queen of the World.
There is no incongruity in that picture and my response to your statement about "the Arab mind."
BTW, another FYI (all this seems like news to you), I would imagine the "peace" sign is a victory sign.
8491. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:35:13 AM
How goes the sleep Rebbe?
8492. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:36:09 AM
Eat up..if its kosher its kewl
8493. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:36:15 AM
Of course with Joe's reasoning, no need to bother about the child. She's got a dark Arab mind from birth, so removing her from the exposure of that sort of thinking by her father would be of no avail.
8494. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:37:33 AM
Seriously tho Rebbe, its probably safe but the texture of the meat will be for shit....expansion, contraction, expansion, contraction etc. destroys fiber
8495. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/16/2002 10:39:14 AM
8496. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:39:19 AM
Se zol dir grihmen in boych!
8497. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:44:43 AM
The King David Hotel massacre shocked the conscience of the civilizedworld. On July 23, Anthony Eden, leader of the British opposition Conservative Party, posed a question in the House of Commons to Prime Minister Atlee of the Labor Party, asking “the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make on the bomb outrage at the British Headquarters in Jerusalem.” The Prime Minister responded: “…It appears that, after exploding a small bomb in the street, presumably as a diversionary measure-- this did virtually no damage-- a lorry drove up to the tradesmen’s entrance of the King David Hotel and the occupants, after holding up the staff at pistol point, entered the kitchen premises carrying a number of milk cans. At some stage of the proceedings, they shot and seriously wounded a British soldier who attempted to interfere with them. All available information so far is to the effect that they were Jews. Somewhere in the basement of the hotel they planted bombs which went off shortly afterwards. They appear to have made good their escape. “Every effort is being made to identify and arrest the perpetrators of this outrage. The work of rescue in the debris, which was immediately organized, still continues. The next-of-kin of casualties are being notified by telegram as soon as accurate information is available. The House will wish to express their profound sympathy with the relatives of the killed and with those injured in this dastardly outrage.”
8498. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:52:13 AM
RebbeP
You are right, Sharon's Kommando Unit 101 was a terror unit of the IDF.
In 1953, Ben-Gurion established Commando Unit 101. This all-volunteer unit was responsible for the Kibya massacre. The first, and only, commander of Commando Unit 101 was Ariel Sharon.
Sharon maneuvered the resignation of the professional commander of the Israeli paratroops along with Commando Unit 101 and into Unit 202 of the Israeli Army.
The Government of Israel at the time claimed that the Kibya Massacre was performed by “civilian Jewish settlers.” But the historical record shows that it was sanctioned by acting Prime Minister Moshe Sharrett, and was planned by Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon, the Chief of the General Staff Mordecai Maklef, and the Chief of Operations, General Moshe Dayan, in concert with vacationing Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion.
I.L.Kenen, the founding father of AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Committee), revealed in his Memoirs:
I was on my way home on the subway, headed for Riverdale, when I heard a brief news flash in the World Telegram disclosing that 66 Arabs had been killed at Kibya as Israelis sought to avenge the slaughter of an Israeli family. I did not know until years later that the raid was ordered by Ariel Sharon, the Israeli commander who led the invasion of Lebanon in 1982.
8499. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:58:41 AM
This Sound Familiar???
Forty-seven years ago, Ariel Sharon led a raid on a West Bank village that killed about 70 men, women and children, most of them civilians. The villagers have not forgotten....
Sharon claims his soldiers made sure each house was empty before setting off the explosives. Mustafa Kutna, 91, believes the contrary. "Whenever they heard voices or a sign of life in a house, they destroyed it. Sharon buried people alive in their houses," he said.
In one instance, a family of 12 was wiped out. There were also cases in which the men fled but left behind their wives and children. One such man won't talk to reporters to this day because of his shame and grief. About half the victims were women and children.
The Kibya Massacre - An eye for an eye - Salon
8500. jexster - 4/16/2002 11:01:11 AM
And Bush says this murderer is "a man of peace".
More evidence, sadly, that the President of the US is a mental and moral defective
8501. concerned - 4/16/2002 11:11:39 AM
Re. 8466 -
Not really; Mustafa Kemal Ataturk used similar techniques to convert Turkey into a nominally secular state after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
8502. jexster - 4/16/2002 11:36:35 AM
Not even a lousy crumb of kreplach
Israelis Starving Palestinians
8503. jexster - 4/16/2002 11:57:41 AM
RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) - Israeli tanks rolled into three Palestinian suburbs of Jerusalem and re-entered a West Bank city Tuesday, a day after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) promised the United States he would withdraw soldiers from most Palestinian areas by next week
Bush Hails Sharon Withdrawal Plan
8504. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:21:13 PM
Israel's Coming War Within
Crocodiles. Armpits.
8505. jexster - 4/16/2002 12:24:57 PM
The Nativity Desceration
Pope John Paul (news - web sites) ll on Monday called Father Ibrahim Faltas, a senior official who is one of those holed up in the church, in an effort to raise morale among the clergy, Faltas told The Associated Press.
"He said that he prayed for us, feels for us and does his best to end this crisis," Faltas said.
8506. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:31:35 PM
The Hatred Europe Cannot Shake
Excerpt:
The resolution destroys whatever shreds of credibility were left to the UNHRC after the fiasco of the Durban anti-racism conference. The commission is made up of some of the world's worst human rights offenders. Fewer than half are free countries. Neither the United States nor Israel are on the commission, but 14 Muslim nations are. Naturally, dictatorships and absolute monarchies sided with the Palestinian Authority.
Gee, Jex. How does it feel to be on the side with the worst human rights records in the world?
8507. concerned - 4/16/2002 12:52:56 PM
Saudi: Homicide Bombings Not Terrorism
How do you respectfully tell this guy that he doesn't have a fucking clue?
8508. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:06:22 PM
How do you respectfully tell this guy that he doesn't have a fucking clue?
Last night Bush told Sharon that one of his top objectives was to end the Israeli seige of the Church of the Nativity.
Today, per a telephone report from clergy in the church, Israeli troops opened fire on the Church.
8509. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:06:50 PM
Hell, and you don't even have to do it with respect!
8510. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:08:05 PM
The UNHCR has been charged with the care of the PAL "refugees" ever since Sharon and his butchers displaced them (temporarily) 53 years ago.
8511. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:11:00 PM
And it certainly appears that Zionism=Racism.
If it looks like a duck, etc.
I know the Arabs. They are not impressed by helicopters and missiles. The worst curse is 'May your home be destroyed. Ariel Sharon
8512. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:11:43 PM
Gee concerned how can you not "be on the side" of the UNHCR?
8513. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:33:43 PM
Actually, from reading a couple of the Jenin pieces linked here, my impression is that even if they do find 100 or 200 people under the ruins and half turn out to be civilians, a lot of people will still understand the Israelis. The recurrent testimony is that we really only started heavy demolition after 23 of our soldiers were killed. And it seems the Pal terrorists have managed to make themselves quite unpopular in the world. Somehow.
8514. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:38:05 PM
Jexster:
The texture doesn't matter that much. And I've destroyed it some more because I let the meat marinate in water for over an hour, because I had to go watch the fireworks for Independence Day with the kids.
Texture will not be this turkey dish's strong suite.
8515. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:38:55 PM
Or suit.
8516. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 2:42:26 PM
Pelle:
Your country voted for this UNHCR resolution? Do you have anything to say in your defense?
8517. Andonly - 4/16/2002 2:58:26 PM
"Ando, remind me - why aren't we taking the Saudi plan seriously?"
It calls for the return of all or many refugees (not clear); and the promise of "normal relations" (as opposed to "full normalization") is not explained. (Israel has asked for clariifcation.) Syria and Lebanon won't tolerate not getting rid of their Pals, Israel can't tolerate taking them, and Israel has no way of ensuring that if it agreed to the plan and withdrew settlemnets, the same old coalitions of Arab radicals, or new ones, operating quietly under cover of their respective Jew-hating governments and supported completely by the Arab masses, would not simply perpetuate the status quo vis-a-vis The Zionist Entity.
Or so I read the situation.
8518. RustlerPike - 4/16/2002 3:20:34 PM
From the NYT story on Pals in Jordan, linked above:
"The reason for this fantastic attachment to Palestine is partly because the Arabs encouraged it," said Kamel Abu Jaber, a retired Jordanian foreign minister and a peace negotiator. "To say, let's settle them, let's absorb them, was considered treason and still is."
8519. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:11:39 PM
As the racist Butcher of Bethlehem's sturmtruppen riddle the Church of the Nativity with bullets and Sharon pisses on him yet again, George Bush, geopolitical and homiletic incompetent, is preparing another Major Sermon on Terror.
And the world is not holding its breath
8520. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:13:13 PM
I give Saddam Hussein six months, if that.
8521. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:15:10 PM
Bet me.
Boob-in-Chief's Iraq Policy in the Crapper
Let's review the bidding before I take your money Ronsk.
8522. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:18:38 PM
1. No state in the region will host an invasion force, not Kuwait, not Turkey, not Saudi Arabia.
2. No state in the world, not even Britain, will support an attack on Iraq
3. US forces are tied down in Afghanistan.
4. The Middle East will erupt in flames
5. There is a huge split not only between Powell and the wackos at DoD but also within DoD. The Generals want 300,000 troops on the ground preceded by massive bombing. DoD is leaking like a sieve
6. The contract is 7NT doubled, vulnerable...
Your lead.
8523. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:21:59 PM
1. Bibi tells U.S. Congress Saddam Hussein is months away from smuggling weapons of mass destruction out of his country, into the hands of terrorists, and thus into the U.S.
Game over.
8524. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:31:57 PM
Bibi Netanyahu???????????????!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I forgot one thing...the Brits shit canned their report because their MI-5 couldn't stand behind it.
8525. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:33:18 PM
Several weeks ago, Iraq and Kuwait signed an agreement in which Iraq agreed to respect the sovereignty of Kuwait. The foreign minister of Kuwait, Sheik Sabah al Ahmed al Jabbar al Sabah said his country is now "100% satisfied," adding that he had written the agreement himself. A spokesperson for the United States nonetheless exhibited skepticism. The U.S. is not about to be deterred simply because Kuwait is "satisfied." What is Kuwait, that it should participate in such a decision?
It is clear that, at this point, almost no one supports a U.S. invasion of Iraq: not a single Arab state, not Turkey or Iran or Pakistan, not Russia or the great bulk of Europe. There are, to be sure, two notable exceptions: Israel, which is cheering Bush on, and Great Britain--or rather its prime minister, Tony Blair, who declared last weekend in Texas that "doing nothing ... is not an option" with regard to Iraq. Yet an article in The Observer last month reported that "Britain's military leaders issued a stark warning to Tony Blair last night that any war against Iraq is doomed to fail and would lead to the loss of lives for little political gain." LAT
But I guess Bibi Netanyahu runs US foreign policy.
At least its clear that Bush doesn't...
8526. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:36:49 PM
The Iraq situation was always more complicated than some made it seem
As I have caused a Mote infritata by arguing for months now.
8527. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:37:22 PM
Actually, I suspect Iraq is one area where Bush really is running things. The other is taxes.
8528. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:38:44 PM
Few American analysts doubt that a core of key administration officials remains deeply committed to ousting Saddam by whatever means practicable.
But the Palestinian-Israeli crisis has pushed many other foreign policy issues to the side and made it harder, if not impossible, for Bush to seriously consider a military move any time soon against the Iraqi leader, they say.
Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) is now enmeshed in an open-ended Mideast mission, seeking an Israeli-Palestinian cease-fire that could revive peace talks. Bush is also seized with this issue, which could dominate his international agenda indefinitely.
There is no sign Bush has made key decisions to implement a new Iraq strategy, like massive troop deployments or providing military aid to Iraqi opposition groups, experts say.
RHETORIC FADING
The U.S. anti-Saddam rhetoric has been muted, and even Washington's staunchest ally in the war on terror, Britain, has grown increasingly uneasy about a move against Iraq.
Claiming.
7NT bid and made.
Dbl vul
8529. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:39:38 PM
You also said Bush made a terrible mistake by putting Iraq in play which caused oil prices to rise after Hussein stopped pumping. Except that they started to fall a few days after you made that post, and Saudi Arabia is increasing production.
8530. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:42:59 PM
I never EVER said that Bush made a terrible mistake by putting Iraq in play which caused oil prices to rise after Hussein stopped pumping
In fact I said that it has been known for months by US and Saddam that Saudi would do just that.
What I said was that Bush fucked up by making Saddam more popular than ever; less vulnerable than ever, and that Saddam wasn't aiming to jack oil prices but rather aiming to further jack his position vis-a-vis other Arab states.
That's what I said.
That's what I still say.
8531. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:44:27 PM
That's what he did.
"O Supreme Ruler, how do you take the latest threat from Bush?"
"Shaken not stirred."
8532. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:44:44 PM
Bush wants Saddam out.
Bush (one) believes Saddam will make a U.S. city partially uninhabitable in the not too distant future if he is not removed, and the president will not permit that to happen on his watch.
And (two) he is going to finish what his father started, especially after the attempt on his father's life.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
BTW, I'm not sure I'm on board with Bush on this, but I sense this is what is happening. The punditocracy claiming otherwise only convinces me of the likelihood of the foregoing scenario.
But we'll see.
8533. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:46:04 PM
Maybe you are right about one thing Ronski...Bush is running the Iraq Op....
Just look how fucked up it is.
8534. ronski - 4/16/2002 4:46:13 PM
No, that's not what you said. But then you denied making murderous statements directed against Serbs, too, despite having done so in your fawning over Clinton's war.
8535. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:48:54 PM
That is exactly what I said.
In response, if you care to look for itI don't go there except to wreak Holy Vengeance, in response to some assinine caterwalling from Caligula the very day Iraq announced the oil cut back.
Hell the Saudis said they'd make up production, and OPEC at its last meeting said that no state would be allowed to jack prices for political reasons.
That is the current state of the facts.
Go find the message.
8536. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:52:07 PM
You oughta be thankful that Father Goeffrey's got me in a good mood today Ronski...
BERLIN (Reuters) - White House national security adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) was quoted Tuesday as saying President Bush (news - web sites) had not yet decided on military action against Iraq, although he wanted President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) to go.
"We believe that a change of regime is the best solution. The world would be safer if this man were no longer there," Rice told Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung daily in an interview released ahead of publication Wednesday.
She said Washington wanted Baghdad to readmit U.N. weapons inspectors without conditions, but doubted if Saddam would do so.
8537. jexster - 4/16/2002 4:55:55 PM
Bush Irrelevant - As I said 4 weeks ago
David Mack, a former U.S. diplomat now with the Middle East Institute, said Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites)'s assault on Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) had backfired, making Bush, not Arafat look "irrelevant."
"This is a serious blow to U.S. influence in the region, and in the long term it is also bad for Israel," he added.
8538. PelleNilsson - 4/16/2002 4:59:42 PM
Rustler
I know nothing about the UNHCR resolution. Please link it. What I do know is that jexster's statement ...
The UNHCR has been charged with the care of the PAL "refugees" ever since Sharon and his butchers displaced them (temporarily) 53 years ago.
.... is another example of his profound ignorance. The UNHCR has nothing to do with displaced Palestinians. And it's actually 54 years ago. And Sharon was in his teens then. What colossal bumfuckling (TM stostosto) nonsense jexster is producing every hour, every day!
8539. Andonly - 4/16/2002 5:01:02 PM
"1. No state in the region will host an invasion force, not Kuwait, not Turkey, not Saudi Arabia."
Qatar.
"2. No state in the world, not even Britain, will support an attack on Iraq"
Britain does already.
"3. US forces are tied down in Afghanistan."
US forces are capable of fighting at least three wars simultaneously, possibly four.
"4. The Middle East will erupt in flames"
Not without Egypt, which is determined to stay out of a conflagration, not least becasue it is completely dependent on US aid.
"5. There is a huge split not only between Powell and the wackos at DoD but also within DoD. The Generals want 300,000 troops on the ground preceded by massive bombing. DoD is leaking like a sieve"
You never know why a particular fact is being leaked, though, do you? DoD always wants more than it is granted. I would guess this is its way of attempting to get it. And depite the State-Pentagon split, it looks like we will be going to war with Iraq, sooner or later.
"6. The contract is 7NT doubled, vulnerable..."
I don't know what this means.
8540. Andonly - 4/16/2002 5:01:38 PM
From Middle east News Online (Qatar), emphases mine:
The United States and Britain have been shuttling between Arab and European allies trying to drum up support for an attack against Iraq.
...
General Tommy Franks, the top commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East called Saddam Hussein a long-standing threat to the international community, and his removal from power is the only solution.
"Saddam Hussein has been a problem for his own people and has been a problem for the international community for a long time," he said.
When he was asked about a broadcast report that pointed to a plan underway at the Pentagon for a possible U.S. military invasion of Iraq, perhaps by the end of this year.
General Franks disputed the report.
The report said the Pentagon is already establishing a second air combat command center in Qatar in the Persian Gulf to back up facilities now in Saudi Arabia.
It also said supplies, munitions and equipment are being moved to Qatar to prepare that facility and that General Franks will re-locate from his headquarters in the southern U.S. state of Florida to Qatar to run any war against Iraq.
8541. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:03:15 PM
Collosal quibble about nothing Pelle.
Palestinians outside the UNWRA area of operations
such as those in Iraq or Libya, are considered to be of concern to the UNHCR...
So fucking what's your point?
8542. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:04:24 PM
And Sharon was 27 during the Kibya massacre when he headed commando unit 101.
He was involved IN HIS TEENS in pro Zionist activities, some say killings, during WWII.
8543. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:04:47 PM
Silly assed Swede
8544. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:05:31 PM
toys
8545. Andonly - 4/16/2002 5:06:43 PM
"The guy in the picture is a sicko. His child should be taken away from him if I were Queen of the World."
I've got a slide show you should see Arky, to get a sense of how many "sickos" you'd have to separate from their children in order to reorder the world properly. Do you want to provide an email address where I can send the file?
8546. jexster - 4/16/2002 5:07:19 PM
I'lll gvie yuo something uzeful to do Sweede..
Correct the spelling errors in the above.
8547. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 5:20:48 PM
No thank you, Andonly. I can tell you plenty of home-grown stories from right in my small, sparsely populated area that would match your slides and make you sick, and I've seen and heard more than enough up close and personal. It's irrelevant to the point of my post, though, unless you think your slides support Joe's very general statement about Arabs based on the one picture he linked.
8548. PelleNilsson - 4/16/2002 5:25:35 PM
"I'll give you something useful to do Swede"
Always your humble servant if I can help your troubled, ambling mind.
Admit it, jexster. You are not out to get Sharon, your are out to get Bush. You are so transparent.
8549. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 6:00:54 PM
Pike: I don't understand your <>new<> post to me. Picture didn't appear.
DOD TRANSCRIPT of remarks at Pro-Israel Rally by Assist. Sec. of Defense Paul Wolfowitz
Notice how the official transcript leaves the boos intact.
8550. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 6:19:48 PM
The hardest part about the Israeli-Palestinian conlfict is not really what is spoken of directly, it is in the topics that are rapidly shunted aside. There are a few givens that the players refuse to accept:
1. The US and Britain will not allow a democratic pro-Western regime with strong cultural ties to them to be pulled down whether by direct attack or attrition. No single nation [and damn few even theoretically possible alliances] can match the US/Britain and their reliable allies in power, be it military, social or economic. The force or attrition needed to alter this policy would spark a devastating counter-blow before the strategy could rise to a level to effect change. Thus Israel survives.
2. Palestinians will not be assimilated into neighboring states in numbers significant enough to remove the pressure to create their own state. Thus, the Palestinians will always be the Israeli's neighbors, in one form or another.
3. The conflict has taken on a life of its own and it is now impossible to redress every legitimate grievance suffered by the innocents in the area, let alone those who bear some responsibility in the conflict, even if the will and power could be summoned simultaneously.
4. Neither side can live with the other in the same system, as the emotional landscape is so poisioned that the mutual trust and respect needed for the social contract is not likely within the next generation. Thus both settlements in WB and Gaza cannot remain, and no "right of return" is possible that places people on the "wrong" side of the fence, so to speak.
8551. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 6:20:11 PM
5. The political leadership on both sides is dependent on the conflict for its hold on power, and large egos are in control on both sides of the conflict.
6. Both sides heavily recruit outside support in money, diplomacy, military hardware, create complications and disruptions that reach beyond the region, and use religious/emotional/political blackmail to insure their struggle is subsidized by outsiders. At the same time, the parties routinely snub the other governments that support them, appealing to the religious/emotional/political blackmail issues that resonate with the public in other nations to insure that the displeasure of other world leaders does not result in any action that would hamper the continuation of the conflict.
7. Efforts to isolate the problem are confounded by economic and strategic needs of neigboring states and world powers, and the parties threaten these needs in order to preserve the conflict.
8. Similar efforts are made to isolate and marginalize reasonable people of good faith who would attempt to resolve the conflict, including outright assasination when necessary.
8552. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 6:23:27 PM
9. Everybody wants all of Jeruselem and nobody will get it.
10. Someday, the rest of the world will reach a breaking point, and a solution will be imposed if the parties cannot break the cycle they are repeating. Neither side will like the solution. Neither side will be able to do anything about it.
8553. jexster - 4/16/2002 6:29:28 PM
The Pentagon is trying to establish an air base in Qatar.
Once they have. Once they have resolved their debate with Rummy over the Battle Plan. Once Wolfiewitz and his ChickenHawks managed to quel opposition from Powell, the Generals and State. Once Al Qaeda stops attacking our forces in Afghanistan. Once Bush gets unstuck from that fat tar baby Sharon.
Then DoD can install the Troop Transporter Device in Qatar because no country bordering Iraq will allow us in.
Of course, we'll fight our way in - Once we nuke Mecca.
WACK
8554. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:00:09 PM
The Mote's Own Rustler Pike On the Move Against the Terrorist Monks of Bethlehem
8555. jexster - 4/16/2002 8:09:55 PM
The WarLord of Moral Clarity has sent Congress an official waiver of the anti-terrorism act in order to permit funding of the PLO without interference from Congressthings in need of cash for reelection campaigns.
Shouldn't have booed Wolfie-wit
8556. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 9:45:36 PM
Don't even go there, Jex. No money will be given to the current PA.
8557. jexster - 4/16/2002 9:56:52 PM
Bullshit. Check the Washington Post or Times in the morning.
Speaking of idiots Rose,
Compared to presidents named Bush, Dale Carnegie was a slacker when it came to cementing instant friendships with a crinkly smile and a firm, manly handshake 
George Bush - Geopolitical Nicompoop and His Soul Visions
8558. Andonly - 4/16/2002 10:06:14 PM
"It's irrelevant to the point of my post, though, unless you think your slides support Joe's very general statement about Arabs based on the one picture he linked."
It's not irrelevant at all. I'm saying I can show you lots more pictures like the one picture he linked, but worse. I'm saying that Joezan's very general statement about "the Arab mind" were of course too sweeping, but not by as much as you'd like to believe.
There is enormous support in the Arab world for suicide bombing. The masses in major Arab states are enraged that their governments have not already declared war on Israel. Moreover, the degree of antisemitism--sheer, outright Jew-hatred--that appears manifest in the Arab world is staggering.
You know how the Republicans hate Clinton? The quality and texture of that hatred? Now imagine a continent full of that, but aimed at "the Zionist Entity". And realize that they teach this to their little kids, to their high school students, and to their college students. Very energetically.
8559. Property of Jesus - 4/16/2002 10:07:25 PM
No, any money will go to re-education of PAL children....
...To stop the current NEA of Palestine
8560. jexster - 4/16/2002 10:14:07 PM
Yea right....Rosie the morrow will tell whether your literal asytigmatism is as severe as Bush's moral one.
Meanwhile, Sharon continues his belly laughs at the World Historical Joke from Texas
As Secretary of State Colin L. Powell prepared to end his peace mission, Ariel Sharon made clear that the Israeli dragnet through the West Bank was not over.
Now, immediately, pwetty pwease, you hot hunky man of peace..
8561. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:33:58 PM
Andonly, in your post you didn't specify Arab pictures, and I automatically misinterpreted that post as a statement about the plight of the world in general. I didn't realize you were referring to them alone.
I'm certain the degree of antisemitism in the Arab world is deep and extensive, and I fully understand that you're far more aware of it there, and probably here, than I. I am also very well aware that the extent of the feeling is far greater than anything ever aimed at Clinton. I live in the country targeted by 9/11 too, and though I don't believe the Palestinian issue was more than a tacked-on convenience for bin Laden to gain more Arab support, it's obvious that the issue was one capable of accomplishing that.
None of that changes the fact that it doesn't serve anyone to demonize either side as a whole and Joe's comment was racist.
8562. joezan - 4/16/2002 10:36:38 PM
Arky:
It's irrelevant to the point of my post, though, unless you think your slides support Joe's very general statement about Arabs based on the one picture he linked.
I think you know, as Ando pointed out, that my "very general statement" is based on much more than that photo. But that was sort of the last straw.
Have you really failed to notice that in just about every news report on the WB situation - tv, radio, paper...whatever -there is some commentary from the "Arab street", and that in damn near every one of them, these people are proclaiming for all the world that they are preparing to sacrifice their sons and daughters as human bombs?
Isn't it a little odd that not one person in that crowd of thousands of supposed adults would grab that fucking psycho by the ear and say DON'T USE YOUR CHILDREN TO HELP YOU MAKE YOUR SICK FUCKING POINT!?
This is a sickness - incontrovertible evidence that there really is such a thing as mass psychosis.
It is as sick - or sicker, even - than any Klan rally.
8563. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:36:46 PM
I should have applied context to my reading, btw, and your post would have been clear.
8564. arkymalarky - 4/16/2002 10:38:56 PM
I agree it's sick, Joe. I said so very plainly. I don't deny it's widespread. Widespread does not equal the all-inclusiveness of your comment.
8565. joezan - 4/16/2002 10:49:18 PM
Heh - wonder what the Arab Street will have to say about this:
BERLIN - A girl who was paraded at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in Berlin wearing a mock explosives belt around her
waist has touched off an investigation by justice officials.
Police are seeking the man who carried the girl on his shoulder at Saturday's protest, presumably her father, Berlin judicial
spokeswoman Ariane Faust said Tuesday. Prosecutors have opened an investigation that could lead to criminal charges
against the man for condoning acts of violence, she said.
Photos published in German newspapers showed the girl, apparently about five years old, with three sticks meant to
resemble dynamite strapped around her waist .
Interior Minister Otto Schily, the German government's top law enforcement official, called it an "outrageous" abuse of a
child as an "advertisement for terrorist acts."
"This was open promotion of murder," said his Berlin city council counterpart, Eckhart Koerting.
About 11,000 demonstrators took part in the protest against Israel's military campaign in Palestinian areas.
8566. sakonige - 4/16/2002 10:55:04 PM
No cease-fire possible
"Instead of cooperating with the Israelis we are preparing for when they attack," Amin al-Hindi, director of general intelligence told UPI in an exclusive interview in his compound in Gaza, one of the few official buildings in Gaza not decimated by Israeli munitions.
"We are human beings here," al-Hindi went on, "everyone is thinking in the service of his family and saying let's be prepared and prepare ourselves for what would happen when the Israelis come in and invade Gaza so it is not what happened in Jenin."
8567. Andonly - 4/16/2002 10:55:17 PM
Arky,
See POJ's link in 8559, which contains the images I would have sent you.
Of course, pictures don't tell you everything you need to know to figure out what someone else is thinking. For that you need to log onto MEMRI and some English-edition Arab newspapers. But the whole-society brainwashing that goes on in the Arab world is amazing and intense. Read MWEMRI transcrips of al Jazeera broadcasts.
Or look at the discussion forum of the Daily Star sometime; the mentality of most of the posters is, frankly, incredible. It makes Newt Gingrich and Ken Star look like eminently sane, rational men. When some few Lebanese attempt to speak rationally online with the ragers--about any one of Lebanon's myriad problems that have nothing whatever to do with Israel--they get accused of being "filthy Zionists" and "traitors" to their country. And this stuff isn't debatable, either: you can bet the Mukhabarat is reading every word, and can trace emails at will.
"Filthy Zionist traitor" is the default, government-approved pejorative for Arabs from Cairo to Damascus to Riyadh. Even suggesting that Israelis are human apparently is evidence of traitorousness.
8568. sakonige - 4/16/2002 10:56:07 PM
Message # 8557
In Washington late Tuesday, President George W. Bush waived a law that forbids the United States from doing business with the Palestine Liberation Organization.
"It is important to the national interests of the United States to waive the provisions of section 1003 of the anti-terrorism act of 1987," said the short order issued by the White House.
The order is valid for six months after which the president will have to issue another waiver.
Section 1003 of the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1987 "prohibits to receive anything of value from, expend funds from, or establish an office for the PLO."
Such waivers have been issued regularly for the last several years and is the second issued by President Bush.
8569. Andonly - 4/16/2002 11:03:09 PM
Oh, and before you point out that internet forums are not representative, or that outrageous screeds and propaganda published in major Arab papers don't necessarily reflect what ordinary people think, I must tell you that this is not what I hear from first-hand sources in Beirut. What I'm told is that there, people overwhelmingly still believe that 9-11 was carried off by the Mossad. People buy into what they read, which provides them a convenient, larger than life, eternal enemy. And it is the Arabs' political and religious leaders who foment this stuff, deliberately.
8570. Andonly - 4/16/2002 11:11:47 PM
From MEMRI:
Friday Sermon on Palestinian Authority TV
The following are excerpts from a Friday sermon delivered by Palestinian Authority Imam Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi[1] at the Sheikh 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza City, broadcast live on April 12, 2002 by Palestinian Authority television:
"…Oh, beloved of Allah. [In the Friday sermon] two weeks ago, I bore in your name a blessing of love to the crowns upon our heads, [that is] to the Arab and Muslim rulers. Among other things, I said: 'Oh crowns upon our heads: If Sharon spat in your faces, what would you do?' Today I apologize for these words, because Sharon has not only spat on the heads of the nation, but also trampled us underfoot."
"We are convinced of the [future] victory of Allah; we believe that one of these days, we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa as conquerors, enter Haifa as conquerors, enter Ramle and Lod as conquerors, the [villages of] Hirbiya and Dir Jerjis and all of Palestine as conquerors, as Allah has decree… 'They will enter Al-Aqsa Mosque as they have entered it the first time…'"
"Anyone who does not attain martyrdom in these days should wake in the middle of the night and say: 'My God, why have you deprived me of martyrdom for your sake? For the martyr lives next to Allah'…"
"Our enemies suffer now more than we do. Why? Because we are convinced that our dead go to Paradise, while the dead of the Jews go to Hell, to a cruel fate. So we stand firm and steadfast, in obedience to Allah…"
(cont.)
8571. Andonly - 4/16/2002 11:12:21 PM
"The Jews await the false Jewish messiah, while we await, with Allah's help… the Mahdi and Jesus, peace be upon him. Jesus's pure hands will murder the false Jewish messiah. Where? In the city of Lod, in Palestine. Palestine will be, as it was in the past, a graveyard for the invaders – just as it was a graveyard for the Tatars and to the Crusader invaders, [and for the invaders] of the old and new colonialism…"
"A reliable Hadith [tradition] says: 'The Jews will fight you, but you will be set to rule over them.' What could be more beautiful than this tradition? 'The Jews will fight you' – that is, the Jews have begun to fight us. 'You will be set to rule over them' – Who will set the Muslim to rule over the Jew? Allah… Until the Jew hides behind the rock and the tree."
"But the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, a Jew hides behind me, come and kill him.' Except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews."
"We believe in this Hadith. We are convinced also that this Hadith heralds the spread of Islam and its rule over all the land…"
"Oh beloved, look to the East of the earth, find Japan and the ocean; look to the West of the earth, find [some] country and the ocean. Be assured that these will be owned by the Muslim nation, as the Hadith says… 'from the ocean to the ocean…'"
"Oh Allah, accept our martyrs in the highest heavens…"
"Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day…"
"Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters…"
"Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land…"
"Oh Allah, forgive our sins…"[2]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi is a Palestinian Authority employee.
[2] Palestine Television (Palestinian Authority), April 12, 2002.
8572. Andonly - 4/16/2002 11:26:28 PM
"This is a sickness - incontrovertible evidence that there really is such a thing as mass psychosis."
I have no problem with this assessment. But I presume you know that this sickness comes from a lack of freedom (of speech, of thought), that the US is perversely beholden to those forces that spread the sickness, and that Israel is now being made sick as well.
Another few decades of reactionary politics and the orths will have Israel looking like Iran.
8573. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 11:37:51 PM
POJ-
That slide show is fishy- swallow your delicate sensibilities and look at the 'internal organs' in held up triumphantly in one crowd scene. They look remarkably dry, and there isn't any blood etc. on the hands of the guys holding them. If the corpses were fresh, there would be blood and interstitial fluid. If they were fairly old- there would be some autolysis products on them. I seriously doubt that someone caught up in bloodthirsty revelry over the death of a hated enemy would clean up either the body parts or themselves before doing their little macabre dance.
8574. Jonesatlaw - 4/16/2002 11:42:40 PM
Seems odd to me, but maybe there is a window of time where the "parts is parts" process of human death is neater than my experience.
8575. arkymalarky - 4/17/2002 12:19:35 AM
Andonly,
The mindset is disturbing, it is far too pervasive in Arab nations, and it has put the US in a delicate position, but I've read and reread the propaganda from both sides, along with measured, reasonable reports and analysis (and reasonable internet forum comments), and I know that it will take every ounce of reason from all the leaders with an interest in the region who can possibly be reasoned with to have a hope of resolving the current situation without catastrophe.
Sharon and Arafat are both responsible for the current state of impasse. Sharon has known what he was doing from the beginning, and whether Arafat's the crazy-like-a-fox genius RP seems to think he is or someone who's lost control and is trying lamely to maneuver the best position to maintain both his leadership and his life, he's left the Palestinians with no one to look to for hope and statesmanlike guidance. And even if he could effectively lead the Palestinians, his hands are dirty from past ills if not present, and in the minds of most Israelis they can never really be clean.
The US role in all of this has been unfortunate, imo. Had Powell been able to travel to the ME earlier, before hostilities had risen to such a pitch, at least some kind of moderation might have been achieved enough to allow talks to proceed.
I think Friedman's column last week or the week before outlining what needed to be done was right on, and now, at this point, I don't think anything short of some sort of an international action mandating and enforcing concessions will work, and I don't think that option will work either.
8576. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 12:25:02 AM
PoJ:
When linking, instead of writing < a href="www.whatever.com" >, write < a href="www.whatever.com" target="new" >.
That way the link opens in a new window. It's more user-respectful somehow.
8577. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/17/2002 12:34:38 AM
Jones- Thoughtful comments above and your conclusions are dead on.
". . . Not all rage, as now united, shows
More hard unkindness, unrelenting,
Vengeful malice, unrepenting,
Than heaven-illumin'd Man on brother Man bestows." [Burns]
8578. arkymalarky - 4/17/2002 12:36:37 AM
BTW, Andonly, your MEMRI excerpt is fascinating and disturbing. Thanks for providing it and the info on the source.
8579. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 12:40:33 AM
Jones:
I remember that footage: it was from around the time of the Ramallah lynchings. At the time, the TV commentator said the organs were of dead Palestinians, and that these guys were, like, mourning them somehow, but I guess maybe the other interpretation makes more sense (sense?).
And there is blood on those hands, most clearly on the guy in the back holding his fists up.
This is obviously a culture of death, like the ancient Egyptian one. These guys want to die. They are telling us - "kill us - we can't take this humiliation anymore".
8580. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 12:51:12 AM
Ando:
Amazing stuff from that PA sermon.
Don't you see this is how Arafat runs the terror show? This is much more effective and real than if he physically strapped the bomb belt on the martyrs, or paid the Al Aksa Martyrs 700 NIS per bomb. Don't you see this is not a case of "he can't stop it", or "he doesn't want to stop it", but of "he loves it, he has dreamt of it for decades, he willed it into being and is now making it happen"?
These kinds of things don't just happen, any more than Nazism just happened. Nuh uh. Mass national movements of suicide/homicide don't just happen. They are not born of chaos. There is a TV camera in that mosque, there is a production crew, there are staff meetings, there are officials in charge, there is a boss. His ugly mug is all over the billboards and he owns a Nobel peace prize, which he stores next to his cache of RPGs.
Btw, I think Yasir's eternal bodyguard is dead. He used to always appear in back of Yasir, wherever, whenever. He doesn't anymore. I remember reading a trusted bodyguard of his had been killed.
8581. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 12:57:34 AM
Good stuff from Wolfowitz, PoJ:
We gather here today to stand with Israel in this time of trial. The people of America have always had much in common with the people of Israel. Like the people of Israel, we value human life and liberty. We deplore the deliberate killing of innocents. And I believe in my heart the majority of Palestinians do as well.
But since September 11th, we Americans have one thing more in common with Israelis. On that day America was attacked by suicide bombers. At that moment every American understood what it was like to live in Jerusalem, or Netanya or Haifa. And since September 11th Americans now know why we must fight and win the war on terrorism.
8582. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 1:06:30 AM
Pelle:
See connie's link from Message # 8506.
Wasn't the UNHCR, it was the UNHRC. My mistake.
8583. Jonesatlaw - 4/17/2002 1:50:09 AM
Pike- the image I have is poor, and dressing it up with the image program I have wasn't very helpful. It could very well be blood on the hands in the backround, but I was struck by the lack of gore on the guy in the foreground. He doesn't look very triumphant either.
The culture of death does seem to be abroad in Israel/Palestine, but I think that the attitude is closer to 'if I cannot defeat you, come closer, let's die together'
8584. concerned - 4/17/2002 1:51:14 AM
You know how the Republicans hate Clinton? The quality and texture of that hatred? Now imagine a continent full of that, but aimed at "the Zionist Entity". And realize that they teach this to their little kids, to their high school students, and to their college students. Very energetically.
Andonly -
Your animus toward Republicans has really compromised, in a rather ludicrous way, the point you were attempting to make here. The 'Republicans' don't 'hate' x42 much, if any, more than many Democrats do. Clowntoon has richly earned the contempt he's held in by many in both parties.
The difference is that Republicans have not been constrained by party loyalty to stifle their dissatisfaction with that supremely corrupt person.
8585. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 2:00:14 AM
I love how the Republicans and Dems hate each other. There's something very human about democracy, very visceral. It's not at all the wussy concept it's made out to be, in comparison with dictatorship. Quite the contrary, I'm thinking.
You guys hate each other even more than the Israeli Right and Left do, I think. Israelis don't go all the way with anything, except maybe religion. Everything is thus coated with a veneer of self-interest. People are less independent as individuals, it seems, and anyone can be bought for a shekel or two. Americans are a lot more sincere.
8586. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 2:07:38 AM
A dictatorship is one person with a lot of slaves. A democracy is a lot of people thinking and acting together. That's why they move slower and are worse at feinting, jabbing, and rope-a-doping. But once they do move, they are undefeatable. Because essentially, at a certain point, a war between a democracy and a dictatorship turns into a war between a million people and one person.
That is why dictatorships start wars, and democracies end them.
That is probably why the War on Saddam will most likely be a reaction to Saddam scudding Tel Aviv, and not the other way around.
8587. concerned - 4/17/2002 2:12:48 AM
A 'scorched earth' Marxist Revolutionary ideological approach has influenced the rhetoric and tactics of the Democrat Party since its radicalization in 1972, resulting in such things as identity politics and other agendas which were originated to a surprising degree by the American Communist Party more than half a century ago with the goal of weakening American society.
One example of this is the demonization of Republicans that I pointed out in this very thread.
8588. Jonesatlaw - 4/17/2002 2:27:37 AM
concerned- The democrats were far more 'radical' in 1932 than 1972. Identity politics is alive and well in the Moral Majority whose focus is on theological identity rather than racial or ethnic.
The greatest difference between American political parties is the constraint of the 'two party system' which lumps Fritz Hollings and Paul Wellstone in the same camp, likewise John McCain and Jesse Helms are in the same camp. But few other countries have parties with such broad divergence of ideology or zealotry.
8589. Jonesatlaw - 4/17/2002 2:32:18 AM
sheesh- guy outta proof read more carefully when it's late:
read
"in the Moral Majority wing of the GOP..."
and "between American political parties and those elsewhere..."
Any assertion that the democratic party is purposely focused on the destruction of the country, or continues to be the dupe of the American Communist Party, earns you an invite to the tinfoil hat party.
8590. concerned - 4/17/2002 2:44:56 AM
Any assertion that the democratic party is purposely focused on the destruction of the country, or continues to be the dupe of the American Communist Party,....
That's neither what I posted, nor what I believe. I posted that these early radical influences continue to provide the template for a significant amount of the partisan behavior and rhetoric of Democrats. As a matter of fact, I don't believe most of them are conscious at all of the original intent of such stratagems, and thus, in thoughtlessly resorting to them, have actually had them ultimately work against their own interests.
8591. concerned - 4/17/2002 3:11:19 AM
The US as a whole is probably more conservative than it was thirty years ago. That tells me that the Left hasn't done a very good job of constructively advocating its policies to the American public, and I think this is a major reason why.
8592. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 3:29:43 AM
In any case, Israeli democracy is quite different, though quite as democratic and liberal as American democracy (in some things less, in some things much more than it).
Israeli party politics has its rather recent roots in a socialist system - adopted even by the most right-wing and liberal parties -which amalgamated all aspects of life into party-affiliated organizations. We still have such outdated institutions as the Jewish Agency, whose directors receive the exact same salaries and perks as gov't ministers, and who are appointed proportionally by the parties who happen to be in the government (I think. Something like that). Construction conglomerates are linked to newspapers which are, in turn, linked to certain parties. All sport clubs have political sponsors: Hapoel is labor, Beitar is Likud, Maccabi may have something to do with the archaic Liberal Party (which may still exist within the Likud somehow, existence meaning someone somewhere is drawing a salary and receiving benefits and rights). Imagine if the Mets belonged to the Democrats, and the Yanks were a Republican team.
Labor has its schools and its kibbutzim which need to be bailed out economically once in a while, the NRP has its schools, Shas has its myriad institutions: everyone here is on the payroll, somehow. Likud seems to be the least socialistic of all of the veteran parties here, but it has its youth movements, student unions, etc., and is probably linked to one of the Health Service Providers, through which we are all insured here.
And there is much less money to go around here than in the US, even now, and everyone knows your sister, and everyone is up everyone's ass.
>>>
8593. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 3:30:24 AM
>>>
This affects political behavior, of course. The result is that even your otherwise intelligent, well-off Israeli is a much more sycophantic, cowardly individual - politically speaking - than your average American with similar credentials. Zionism was the only ideology out here, and it was everywhere, crammed down people's throats from infancy, to make sure they did what had to be done for Zion: serve in the army, die if necessary, live frugally, share. This was an all-powerful and pervasive ideology, much more demanding than, say, American liberalism or conservatism. Eventually, as Israel became more sure of itself, and less dependednt on motivating its masses through ideology, Zionism got itself a bad name. Oslo and its illusion of peace and acceptance gave added impetus to this process. People hardly use the word 'Zionism' in earnest nowadays. So there's no ideology at all now: just materialism.
That's one of the reasons I can't get Katzirites to come to a rebel demo. I ought to get these guys a translation of Emerson's (Thoreau's?) Civil Disobedience.
8594. jexster - 4/17/2002 9:42:18 AM
Sharon Just Says No to Bush: Imperial WarLord Taught Lesson in Humility and Humiliation target=NEW
8595. jexster - 4/17/2002 9:43:42 AM
8596. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 10:13:46 AM
That's a funny article.
Reporters typically have a few minutes each weekday to ask Bush questions, at the beginning or end of White House meetings where photos are allowed. But no such opportunities have been provided since April 6 in Texas. Two days later, Bush spoke his last substantive words on the Mideast, declaring: "I meant what I said to the prime minister of Israel. I expect there to be withdrawal without delay."
8597. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 10:15:11 AM
First time Israel has said 'no' to the US.
Heh heh.
8598. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:18:06 AM
Israeli Siege of Nativity; Just Say No to God (inside report)
8599. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 10:24:24 AM
That church must smell worse than my house.
I liked this:
Using powerful loudspeakers, the Israelis soon began to bombard those inside the church with sounds of approaching helicopters, tanks, barking dogs.
8600. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 10:25:33 AM
I plan to use Jimmy Page, Jimmy Hendrix and Keith Richards on the Arab neighbors after taking over Katzir.
8601. Property of Jesus - 4/17/2002 10:26:56 AM
8602. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:52:33 AM
Cairo -- In a sign of a widening gap between the Arab world and the United States, President Hosni Mubarak's chief spokesman accused the Bush administration of "playing this game of double standards" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
[Sigh} Remember the Good Old Glory Day's - King Poppy's Krusade Against Saddam?
Ancient history.
8603. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:53:44 AM
Rebbe...what did youse do for "Israel Independence, PAL Oppression Day"?
Eat that rancid turkey?
8604. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:54:18 AM
Kill a Christian for kreplach?
8605. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:56:09 AM
Damn I love that stuff. Must be part Jewish.
The dry, biting wit, the intolerance, the thinly disguised contempt for lesser beings and races, circumcised, curly hair when I had hair at any rate.
Whaddya think?
8606. PelleNilsson - 4/17/2002 11:01:32 AM
Rustler
I liked your #8592-93.
8607. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:07:14 AM
Ye free, ancient country
You rest on your memories
of days great and past
Morning Pelle!
8608. Andonly - 4/17/2002 11:08:17 AM
"Your animus toward Republicans has really compromised, in a rather ludicrous way, the point you were attempting to make here...."
I have no animus toward Republicans. Even vote for them about 1/3 of the time. My problem is with right-wing ideologue hysterics, who are no more useful to the nation, and are just as pumped full of shit, as left-wing ideologue hysterics. My dream of universal retribution would be to have Al Sharpton and Rush Limbaugh sewn together at the mouth, put in a barrel, and sent to Saddam Hussein in a package designed to explode upon opening.
So many innocent minds could be spared...
8609. concerned - 4/17/2002 11:10:24 AM
Heh, heh.....
8610. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:17:56 AM
They laughs aren't over
Saudi Prince to Meet Moron at Armadillo Ranch Next Week
Boy just think how BORING it would be but for the Coup 2000
8611. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:18:16 AM
BORE-ing
8612. jexster - 4/17/2002 12:40:14 PM
Bush Humiliated
Powell Looks for Israeli Withdrawal
8613. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 3:41:42 PM
Property:
It works! But the article is a bit to complex for me, a relative uninitiate, to follow.
Pelle:
Thanks, I was hoping someone would enjoy them. For some reason I was able to crystallize some thoughts about Israelis that were on the tip of my mind for a long time. Years.
8614. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:19:07 PM
RP -
I appreciated those posts, also. I wouldn't have thought that somebody like Pelle could, however.
8615. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:26:07 PM
8616. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:28:27 PM
8617. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:32:17 PM
8618. concerned - 4/17/2002 4:41:52 PM
8619. Andonly - 4/17/2002 5:54:04 PM
"Mass national movements of suicide/homicide don't just happen. They are not born of chaos. There is a TV camera in that mosque, there is a production crew, there are staff meetings, there are officials in charge, there is a boss. His ugly mug is all over the billboards and he owns a Nobel peace prize, which he stores next to his cache of RPGs."
Well, Pike, this is all quite true. But you still seem to think Arafat would remain the leader of the Palestinians, or would have over the Oslo period, had he successfully divorced himself from those preaching martyrdom and endless struggle.
Think of the rest of the Arab world's strong men. How far can they go toward conciliation before they get knocked off or their masses are screaming for Jewish blood in the streets? In Egypt, especially, you see exactly what I think happened in the territories: the leadership ceded some power to those who oppose him, thereby remaining firmly in power. But the extent to which the opposition gained control of the direction of "state" policy differed, probably for a host of reasons. Arafat has never had Mubarak's sort of army behind him, capable of subduing his own people en masse. He could not afford to exile religious militants and maintain a united front against Israel; Egypt, at peace with Israel, had no such burden.
Once again, I don't doubt that Arafat has been behind suicide bombings, especially recent ones, in the sense that he signed checks, and even had some control over some players at various points in the dsense that he could order a stop. For a while. But he has not had the degree of absolute control you imagine, not since the Oslo process began. He is not, in other words, Hafiz Assad. He only stays on top by allowing his boys to blow up periodically. Given that constraint, it's hard to imagine him not embracing the radicalism he claims to be beyond.
8620. Andonly - 4/17/2002 5:54:25 PM
What I'm saying is, you can't look at whatever was found in Arafat's office this week or last and conclude, Aha! He was masterminding this all along! There are fluctuating degrees of control, irrespective of intent. The key is that even if he weren't backing Al Aqsa and Hamas and collaborating with Hizbullah and Iran and getting arms money from the Sauds, he would be powerless to stop this. There are other leaders, they're always competing for succession, and Fat has to keep them on his side, just as they must in Cairo and Riyadh.
On the other hand, it isn't impossible at all that the entire current campaign began about two years ago with the Israeli withdrawal from Beirut, that it was planned with Arafat's full consent, and that Clinton/Barak nearly threw a wrench into things with that pesky Camp David proposal. Thus the necessity for the intifada, as a distraction while the real arms were ferried in.
8621. Andonly - 4/17/2002 5:56:00 PM
Those were some very strange and funny pics, Concerned, especially the one with the pig. Wanna clue us in?
8622. jexster - 4/17/2002 6:03:33 PM
Even as Arafat's popularity soars, Arab solidarity grows and Bush MidEast policy is more desperately confused than ever
So goes today's lead in to Mr. Republican Lou "Moneybags" Dobbs today on CNN.
Thank you Arik!
8623. jexster - 4/17/2002 6:05:16 PM
Mubarak begged off a meeting with Bush's Secretary of State claiming "he was indisposed"
Had an important meeting with the Greater Giza Ladies Club
8624. concerned - 4/17/2002 6:10:47 PM
Re. 8621 -
Arrrggghh! And they're disappearing! IAC, they're Photoshop magic performed on a photo of a Pallie protester from fark.com.
8625. concerned - 4/17/2002 6:37:49 PM
Oops. Now I see them all. When I posted my last, two were not showing up.
8626. jexster - 4/17/2002 6:44:59 PM
Good going TDaschole...you'll take Condo's job for sure.
8627. jexster - 4/17/2002 7:07:45 PM
The condescending mealy mouthed apologists in the Israeli foreign minsitry are looking ever more ridiculous.
Today they insulted the Holy Father. Replying to the Papal request that the Pope be allowed to Bethlehem to minister to Catholic victims of Israeli terror, the foreign ministry said that the Israeli government did not think that this was something that the leader of a billion Catholics should sully himself with the defense of Christ's birthplace.
8628. jexster - 4/17/2002 7:09:10 PM
Cut just the military portion of our aid to Israel and there'd be peace in a week.
And backcharge the remainder to repair the damage their illegal invasion of Palestine caused.
Let's stop screwing with these dirtballs.
8629. wonkers2 - 4/17/2002 10:37:04 PM
tonight on Chris Matthews' "Hardball" one of the masterminds of the Israeli war against Palestine, Sharon's adviser, Dore Gold, who looks like a character out of the Addams Family, confirmed Israel's position on the settlements: they are legal, and Israel has a more valid claim to them, out of security needs, than do the Palestinians. He also refused to even open the door a crack on the issue of a Palestinian state. If peace depends on people with his mentality, don't hold your breath.
8630. wonkers2 - 4/17/2002 10:51:41 PM
tonight on Chris Matthews' "Hardball" one of the masterminds of the Israeli war against Palestine, Sharon's adviser, Dore Gold, who looks like a character out of the Addams Family, confirmed Israel's position on the settlements: they are legal, and Israel has a more valid claim to them, out of security needs, than do the Palestinians. He also refused to even open the door a crack on the issue of a Palestinian state. If peace depends on people with his mentality, don't hold your breath.
8631. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:58:43 PM
Break out your readin glasses Rosie ole girl..
You'll need them to see with moral clarity
The Bush administration said Tuesday that it would allow the Palestine Liberation Organization to keep an office here for another six months, but it warned that the PLO could be kicked out and have funding cut if Yasser Arafat fails to crack down on terrorism.
The announcement by President Bush came as Secretary of State Colin L. Powell wrapped up his Middle East peacemaking mission. So far, Powell has been unable to clinch agreements on a cease-fire or an Israeli troop pullout from battle-scarred Palestinian cities.
In a memorandum to Powell, Bush said it was "important to the national security interests of the United States" to waive the provisions of a 1987 law that imposed restrictions on PLO activities.
The six-month waivers have been routine since 1994, after the PLO and Israel recognized each other. But Bush has come under increased pressure from pro-Israeli groups in the United States to punish the PLO and Arafat, its chairman, for a wave of Palestinian suicide bombings in the Jewish state.
8632. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:59:59 PM
Screw Israel...
Bush wants to go to Baghdad, he bulldozes the Jewish oppressor settlements and packs Sharon off to the cell next to Slobo
8633. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:05:12 PM
Fresh Evidence of Jenin Attrocities
8634. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:07:52 PM
Bethlehem Monks Defy Israeli Terror Machine
T. Friedman wants Gandhi's...look no further than the business end of IDF Merkava's at Jesus's Birthplace.
8635. jexster - 4/17/2002 11:08:58 PM
Brother Mark Boyle staggers in, carrying a cardboard box full of Israeli rockets.
Brother Mark, a softly spoken 60-year-old monk from near Newcastle upon Tyne, came to Bethlehem to teach English at a Vatican-funded university. That was until the Israeli missiles slammed into the university buildings, blowing great holes in the wall and tearing apart classrooms
8636. joezan - 4/17/2002 11:12:34 PM
I think Ando was right all along - Bargouti is poised to be the next Pal leader. He's apparently done all the right things...
Will the real Marwan Barghouti stand up? How does a man change within a brief two years from promoting peace with Israel to being a mass murderer of civilians?
Palestinian sources who know Barghouti said the Fatah secretary-general was merely taking care of business. In the early- and mid-1990s, Barghouti rode on a crest of popularity that challenged Arafat and stressed democracy. It was during a time when Arafat's regime, based on his aides brought from such places as Iraq, Tunisia and Yemen, was seen as utterly corrupt and failing to provide basic services to the people. During the current Palestinian war against Israel, Barghouti needed to stress his combatant nature — again to challenge Arafat's half-hearted calls for ceasefire or peace talks.
Palestinian Authority documents captured by Israel and confirmed as authentic by Barghouti paint the war horse as a bumbler rather than the smooth combatant he has sought to portray. Barghouti cared little for discipline and urged all Palestinians to bomb and kill Israeli civilians. Simply put, those who were most successful received the grand sum of $100. Arafat signed on every terrorist purchasing order.
8637. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 11:45:45 PM
Ando:
I really do not have a schoolteacher's patience, and that's what one needs with you. Look: anyone can build a theory and buttress it with irrelevancies. But any reasonably observant person looking at Arafat's ugly mug, at his record, at his clothes, at the way he talks, at the way he froths with obvious glee each time there is Jewish blood spilled, at the way he runs his operation, at the way he does everything he does, would never ever think that this guy was anything but a dirty scumbag archterrorist, and the dominant, hyperactive, symbolic and actual and organizing and coordinating and motivating force behing this terror war. It is the logical culmination of his career, and Oslo was a ruse. the Pals have said so on numerous occasions: we are the Trojan horse, etc. Yet you insist on interpreting the situation differently.
This guy is a thug. He runs the dirtiest thug operation in the world. He founded it, on the year I was born. It is now at its murderous peak. He is at his murderous peak. Yet you insist, for over a year now, on portraying him as a bumbling old fogey who may be stupid, mean, whatever, but is essentially a benign if corrupt bureaucrat who, above all, just wants to survive. I can't waste my energy trying to convince you otherwise: I don't think anyone but you actually believes any of this crap anyhow. You so totally and profoundly misunderstand and misinterpret what is obvious to anyone who ever graduated kindergarten that I am starting to doubt whether you are as sharp an individual as I had previously thought. Let's wait and see how the Bargouti story plays out: that guy was your protege, remember?
God, I wouldn't want you running the organized crime task force in my town. "Capone? He has to do these things. Otherwise his men will rise up and kill him. But Bugsy Siegel, there's one we can work with."
8638. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 11:57:46 PM
Read joezan's link, people. To me, it reads a lot like a description of the way Nazi organization worked.
This is what follows what joe quoted above:
The results were increasingly violent. Barghouti ordered Jewish motorists killed outside Jerusalem and instead the victim was a Greek Orthodox monk. By early this year, Barghouti simply ordered his men to crash wedding and bar mitzvah celebrations in Israel and mow down revelers. Later, Barghouti organized women suicide bombers to blow themselves up in Israeli cities.
Israeli officials said the documents have already been relayed to the CIA and Defense Department. They said the documents were also discussed with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, who held talks in Israel this week. The documents will also be discussed during Israeli-U.S. strategic talks later this month in Tel Aviv.
A PA security memorandum blamed Barghouti for the chaotic nature of the war against Israel. The memorandum by the General Intelligence Agency said Barghouti's methods have led to divisions within Al Aqsa.
"Marwan Barghouti had a significant role in their situation reaching this level since he assured everybody who contacted him, that the responsibility of the brigades in [the West Bank city of] Tulkarm will be his if he works and proves that he worthy of it," a PA memorandum released by Israel said. "The recent activities [of the insurgents] was conducted in this trend."
>>>
8639. RustlerPike - 4/17/2002 11:58:48 PM
>>>
In some cases, the documents assert, several different groups claimed credit for operations to obtain money from Arafat. In one document, Arafat was asked to approve $2,500 for three leading terrorists in the West Bank.
"Among the armed squads there are many parasites and people with narrow interests who suddenly appeared in their ranks," a Fatah document said. "These people have become a financial onus on the organization since they demand financial allocations, ammunition needs."
Memo from Josef Arafat to Rudolf Bargouti: the operations are too chaotic! Put some order in the operations! First you kill a monk, then you crash a Jew party - what's happening here?
8640. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 12:00:21 AM
Last paragraph in #8639 was mine.
8641. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 3:01:03 AM
Here's a surprise. Arms from Iraq found in Arafat's compound. Doubtless brought there by the Palestinian 'street'. Po' Yasir just had to go along, or they'da killed him.
I tell you, that Pal street is a ruthless dictator, with no regard for its leadership. They'd sacrifice their own President for their own selfish interests!
8642. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 3:04:20 AM
The street even made use of the incontinent, bumbling President's helicopters to smuggle the weapons in!
(he thought those RPGs were just oversized vibrators for his oversize butthole! Naive man)
What a disgusting thing to do, street!
8643. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 3:05:54 AM
(Perhaps this is why Israeli tanks plowed up the streets of Jenin and Ramallah. They were executing the street!)
8644. Property of Jesus - 4/18/2002 8:27:25 AM
Hilarious to see Arafat bitching to American TV about his Israeli-enforced, three-room office living conditions, begging for help from President Bush, while two weeks ago he wanted to be "martyr" dying for his cause.
The odor of his companions must be getting to him.
8645. wonkers2 - 4/18/2002 9:20:48 AM
You have a sick sense of humor!
8646. jexster - 4/18/2002 9:56:01 AM
IDF in No Hurry to End Nativity Desecration
Israel has frosty relations with some of the religious leaders, including the Greek Orthodox patriarch of Jerusalem and some Roman Catholic prelates, whom they regard as too sympathetic to the Palestinians, church officials said.
"Basically, things are very bad," said the Rev. Andrew Wright, the Middle East envoy for the Anglican church, who was dispatched to Bethlehem by the archbishop of Canterbury to try to help. Wright said he was barred from entering Bethlehem today and has been unable to persuade the two sides to meet.
Palestinians inside the church have said conditions there have deteriorated severely in recent days, with stores of rice and potatoes running out and the water supply running dry. Israeli military leaders gave a slightly different account, saying there is adequate drinking water in the church, although they declined to give details.
Meantime, two rotting corpses remain in the basilica and at least four Palestinians have been laid up with gunshot wounds in the grotto, the site underneath the sanctuary that is venerated as the exact location where Jesus was born. 
8647. jexster - 4/18/2002 9:57:46 AM
Happy "independence day".
Swine.
8648. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:01:11 AM
Psalm 69
21 They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
22 Let their own table before them become a snare; let their sacrificial feasts be a trap.
23 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they cannot see; and make their loins tremble continually.
24 Pour out thy indignation upon them, and let thy burning anger overtake them.
25 May their camp be a desolation, let no one dwell in their tents.
8649. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:19:28 AM
"Independence Day Entertainment" 
A group of several dozen peace activists show food to Israeli soldiers, as they are prevented from entering the Church of Nativity, in Bethlehem, April 18, 2002.
8650. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:22:15 AM
Chancellor of the Roman Catholic Church on the Nativity Seige - OnLine Transcript
8651. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:36:06 AM
Non Violence
Le pelican, symbole:
- du Christ qui nourrit le monde par son Corps, son Sang et sa parole";
- de la non-violence: le sacrifice de soi pour la paix du monde et la vie des autres
The Pelican Symbol of Christ who nourishes the world by his Body, his Blood, and his Word
no-violence: the sacrifice of oneself for the peace of the world and the life of others
8652. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:40:53 AM
Alexandria, Va.: Why aren't you doing more to get these gunmen out of the church? When you fail to demand that the gunmen leave you become complicit in their acts. You don't permit Israeli soldiers to live in your church. Why do you permit armed Palestinian gunmen to live there?
Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: It seems that you don't know exactly what is going inside the Church.. let me tell you briefly:
- Yes there are some gunmen inside the church, but there are also civilians, priests, sisters and members of the PA police who all asked for refuge inside the church because during the invasion of the Israeli army to the Nativity square they all risked to loose their lives.
- Since they are inside the church, therefore, they are under our protection because the church is an immune place.
- I can assure you 100% that no one of these gunmen used his weapon at all.. our condition for them to stay inside the church is not to shoot at all as we are asking also from the Army surrounding the church not to shoot on the church and respect the sanctity of the Holy Place.
- Now after 15 days we are in front of a dramatic situation: we cannot hand them to the army because they simply might be killed. WE cannot tell them to go out because we offered them refuge. It is up to the political leadership of both sides to decide their future and fate.. we wait and we will see.
- We just ask to have a peaceful solution without any scandal or massacre.
In one word: we are not protecting terrorists at all because these people are our people who's lives are threaten, and we consider them all as human beings who need our protection.. because already the Israeli invasion of the city is and aggression which is not legal nor moral.
8653. jexster - 4/18/2002 10:42:14 AM
Not legal.
Not moral.
Happy "Independence" day
8654. Andonly - 4/18/2002 11:00:55 AM
"But Bugsy Siegel, there's one we can work with."
No, Meyer Lansky was the one you could work with.
(One of those guys helped establish Las Vegas--I can't recall who, but I think it was Lansky, or maybe some minor gremlin.)
Joezan's link supports exactly what I've said, which you persist in misunderstanding, despite my repeated, slowly enunciated attempts to explain it to you.
Barghouti is not my "protege," as I have not advanced or protected his career, but I'm flattered you think me so influential. I have simply pointed out (contra your ridiculous assertion that Barghouti is a "nothing") that he has for years been second in popularity only to Arafat, was thought by the Shin Bet to be a moderate, was considered by Israel to be someone who could be dealt with (this has been reported quite widely, it's no secret), and probably had more control over Arafat than was obvious, since whoever fights corruption at the same time he kills Israelis competes for authority with the man who has his own aircraft and claims he wants to make peace with the Jews. Reiterated Enunciation Number 547: It doesn't matter whether Arafat wants to stop the suicide bombings. Did he yesterday, will he tomorrow? Who cares? He's irrelevant, incontinent, soon to be history.
Yes, Arafat is a thug. I have never denied it, not even briefly. But the power is not all in his hands, and this is what you don't get.
Maybe if you develop a subtler understanding of politics you'll manage to scamper to the top of the council in Katzir after all. Best of luck.
8655. Andonly - 4/18/2002 11:03:35 AM
"Yet you insist, for over a year now, on portraying him as a bumbling old fogey who may be stupid, mean, whatever, but is essentially a benign if corrupt bureaucrat--"
No, that's your strawman, not my characterization, not even close to it.
8656. betty - 4/18/2002 11:08:58 AM
andonly,
It's Bugsy Siegel who helped establish Vegas
8657. jexster - 4/18/2002 11:18:40 AM
Jerusalem -- For four days last week, Sgt. Abi ordered his squadron to fire anti- tank missiles at what his commanders said were terrorist bases in a refugee camp in the West Bank town of Jenin.
Watching the rickety plaster and mud-brick houses of the Palestinian colony crumble under the rockets, Abi said he prayed that at least one of his missiles would miss its target.
"This stupid war that we are waging, it's awful," he said. "Killing people, as many as possible --there is no point in this."
Israel's reluctant reservists torn
'Brutal campaign' weighs heavily
8658. jexster - 4/18/2002 11:20:28 AM
Is an arrest made during an illegal operation legal?
Is an arrest made during an immorral operation, moral?
8659. jexster - 4/18/2002 11:21:50 AM
If the offensive continues, you will see more people disobeying military orders," said Gad Barzilai, who teaches political science and law at Tel Aviv University.
8660. jexster - 4/18/2002 11:23:51 AM
"The Israeli propaganda says that we only shot at the houses that we needed to destroy," Abi said. "This is not true. I wish that it were only property that has been damaged."
8661. Julius Caesar - 4/18/2002 12:04:56 PM
Ah. Four days of peace.
Is it time to get NATO involved?
8662. Andonly - 4/18/2002 12:06:41 PM
"It's Bugsy Siegel who helped establish Vegas"
Now, see, I could have remembered that if only I had kept my movie lore straight.
8663. Property of Jesus - 4/18/2002 12:15:13 PM
IN THE END, Yasser Arafat got nothing...
ARAFAT'S ACT DOESN'T WORK WITH POWELL
8664. Andonly - 4/18/2002 1:26:45 PM
JC's link about NATO involvement raises a lot of good qustions, but I think it's a little unfair to expect Tom Friedman to expound on the precise nature of operations that might be employed to help create a Pal state and separate the Israelis from their enemies.
Yes, there's clearly a great deal of room for failure. But few among us are schooled in military matters, and I don't think Friedman has the inside scoop on what's posible militarily. (A better reporter of such matters would be Lawrence Kaplan.)
I would think that a NATO intervention, or any military intervention under US command, should be undertaken specifically and openly to protect our ally Israel and help the Pals establish a state free of Israeli occupation. Should the Pals employ their newly established country to continue attacks on Israel, the NATO force under US command should be fully empowered to attack Palestine, and bring it down if necessary. The Arabs would have to understand this going in, and agree to it. (They probably wouldn't.) And should terror groups use the intervention force for martyr practice before statehood was declared (assuming it was not declared going in, which might be preferable), the establishment of the Pal state should be delayed, or nixed in the UNSC by Washington. Subsequent to findings of significant non-cooperation by the Pals, the intervention force should be prepared to leave and turn the conflict back over to the IDF.
As for troop strength--what do you want to bet Europeans would want to have a hand in such an operation, for influence's sake, and that Arabs would be happier if troops were drawn from countries sympathetic to their cause? If anyone can put together such an arrangement, it's Colin Powell.
8665. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 2:33:16 PM
We've nabbed the Hamas guy who is responsible for over 100 Israeli deaths, including the Dolphinarium and the Passover Massacre.
God, I wish they give him the death penalty. We only did that once - to Eichmann.
8666. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 2:35:37 PM
Terror bombings have most certainly been reduced quite dramatically. But IDF sources expect another wave soon, then some quiet, then a resurgence around three months later.
8667. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 2:40:02 PM
Reiterated Enunciation Number 547: It doesn't matter whether Arafat wants to stop the suicide bombings.
Reiterated Counter-enunciation Number 622: but nobody's asking that. It would be like asking: do new Spielberg movies keep coming out because Spielberg doesn't want to stop them from being made, or because he can't stop them from being made?
8668. Property of Jesus - 4/18/2002 2:54:08 PM
Like Father, like daughter
CNN's Andrea Koppel's objectivity (Believes Palestinians are "Fair", not Israelis)
8669. wonkers2 - 4/18/2002 3:46:14 PM
Why are you so much more willing to acknowledge PAL atrocities than IDF depredations? My impression, as a completely impartial observer, is that there is plenty of fault to go around on both sides.
8670. Andonly - 4/18/2002 4:37:09 PM
"Terror bombings have most certainly been reduced quite dramatically. But IDF sources expect another wave soon, then some quiet, then a resurgence around three months later."
I do think the conventional wisdom that the Pals will just keep coming may be wrong. You know, th business that more frustration = more suicide bombings. I figure they also need weapons and people convinced that the martyr methodology ultimately accomplishes something other than the plowing down of Palestinian hovels.
Not that your IDF sources don't make sense, and they should know; one would expect some leftover personnel to be active in spite of the recent rout in Jenin. If they're going to regroup it will take a few months and some international meddling to mak sure Israel is prevented from stopping them.
8671. Andonly - 4/18/2002 4:50:54 PM
A: "Reiterated Enunciation Number 547: It doesn't matter whether Arafat wants to stop the suicide bombings."
RP: "Reiterated Counter-enunciation Number 622: but nobody's asking that."
Please. The whole goddamned world outside the US still believes the man is Israel's "peace partner." That he "wants" a settlement. And your entire argument has been that he "wants" there to be suicide bombings. My point is that a) Fat is nobody's peace partner because he couldn't make peace if he wanted to, and b) he wants what his would-be sucessors dictate he wants. So he directs them according to their bidding, tells the proles and their children what the radicals want them to hear, and lies through his teeth to the world. He's a popular figurehead, but he is not the source of the script, and he retains legitimacy only so long as he remains a fighting revolutionary.
"It would be like asking: do new Spielberg movies keep coming out because Spielberg doesn't want to stop them from being made, or because he can't stop them from being made?"
If Steven Spielberg is under contract, they come out because he is obligatd to make them. Arafat is under contract. If he doesn't perform as saleably as Spielberg, he's history.
Of course, that may be less true now than it was before Israel rounded up some of his potential successors.
8672. wonkers2 - 4/18/2002 5:56:00 PM
Sharon is stopping the suicide bombings. Arafat is under house arrest.
8673. joezan - 4/18/2002 8:22:03 PM
8674. Jenerator - 4/18/2002 9:01:55 PM
RUSTLERPIKE,
When you get a chance, go to www.endtimes.org and check out this Christian link on events in the Israel and how it is all part of the prophecies of the Book of Revelation.
Btw, XO.
These guys have a radio show and they're pretty convinced that the Arabs are going to attack Israel before the month of April is over, etc.
8675. sakonige - 4/18/2002 9:39:57 PM
death-wish religions suck
8676. sakonige - 4/18/2002 9:40:31 PM
disgusting self-inflicted disease
8677. sakonige - 4/18/2002 9:41:31 PM
fuck their god and everyone who worships it
8678. RickNelson - 4/18/2002 9:48:21 PM
Sakonige,
I've not been around a lot so I've not seen you around for a while. I've thought of you and hope you and yours are well.
8679. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 10:26:42 PM
Rick:
You interrupted sakko's prayer session with those positive vibes of yours.
8680. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 10:33:21 PM
Jen:
What's XO?
8681. sakonige - 4/18/2002 10:34:11 PM
It's not a prayer. I was just spitting on your graves.
8682. sakonige - 4/18/2002 10:52:49 PM
In Jenin, U.N. Envoy Witnesses 'Horrifying' Scene
> "What we are seeing here is horrifying - horrifying scenes of human suffering," said Larsen, who helped shepherd Palestinians and Israelis toward the 1993 Oslo peace accords. "Israel has lost all moral ground in this conflict."
8683. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 10:55:12 PM
Sakko:
It seems this battle of Jenin has got you so agitated you're actually linking articles.
I never saw you doing that before.
You must reeally be upset.
8684. RustlerPike - 4/18/2002 11:04:46 PM
Jen:
Thanks for that link. I've always wanted to know just what it was the Christian prophecies prophesied. Is there general agreement on the basic interpretation of the prophecies? Like, when he speaks of a 7 year peace treaty set up by the Antichrist - is this something all Christians accept as a prophecy, or is it his specific take, or his denomination's? How divergent are the views on these prophecies, inside the Christian world?
8685. sakonige - 4/18/2002 11:18:54 PM
Message # 8683
I guess we don't use the same messageboards very much.
8686. sakonige - 4/18/2002 11:19:11 PM
any more
8687. concerned - 4/19/2002 12:53:57 AM
Death....or transformation?
How about death metal?
8688. concerned - 4/19/2002 1:01:17 AM
Rush Limbaugh - somebody both simpering Lefty Jews and Arabs can hate
8689. Property of Jesus - 4/19/2002 7:21:39 AM
I hope the American Jews have learned a political lesson on who their friends are.
8690. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 7:31:05 AM
Ando:
Spielberg films get made because Spielberg keeps dreaming up new movies and then making them happen. He loves his job, which is one reason he's so successful at it. He is a master, an icon, he has lasted for decades and never had a real challenger. Same thing with Arafat, but substitute 'terror attacks' for 'films'.
8691. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 7:32:09 AM
There's quite a sense of renewed security here. How long will it last?
8692. Wombat - 4/19/2002 9:01:45 AM
Not very long.
8693. Wombat - 4/19/2002 9:19:17 AM
President* Bush referred to Ariel Sharon as "a man of peace." Was he drunk?
Sharon is a brilliant tactician and miltary leader, but to call him a man of peace would be like calling Patton a man of peace. I cannot think of a politician who is less suited to lead Israel at this time than Sharon--well, not quite, Netanyahu in his current incarnation would be worse.
8694. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 9:35:56 AM
RP,
In a word, to answer your question to Jen on '84,
NO.
I find it appalling and disgusting that some Christians watch the death and destruction of both Israelis and Palestinians like vultures thinking they know the end is near and waiting to be sucked up into heaven, evidently completely unaware that their brothers in waiting have done the same thing at each major crisis in the area over generations.
Any Biblical expert who tells you he fully understands Revelations is either a liar or a moron.
8695. mgleason - 4/19/2002 9:40:22 AM
There's quite a sense of renewed security here. How long will it last?
Until Monday and the return of Jex.
8696. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 9:44:29 AM
Wombat, what's your guess on the number of bodies that will be found in Jenin?
I'm a bit worried about this: during the fighting, the Pals claimed there were hundreds of Pals killed (not just in Jenin) - they said 700 at a certain point - and the IDF seemed to agree with this. The estimates were 150 or 200 killed in Jenin. Then there were all those days when journalists weren't allowed into Jenin, and the IDF changed its estimate to 'a few dozen' killed. That looks to me like it could be a coverup. A literal coverup: with bulldozers. Or maybe it isn't. I guess the next few weeks will tell.
Looks like somebody saw all the bodies there, and went - "oh oh - this looks a lot like Sabra and Shatila. What do we do? What do we do?"
Yasir may have not have lost this round so badly after all. Both the White House and Israel could find themselves on the defensive in the coming months, and the terror may wind up reaching even more horrific proportions than it did in March before we are allowed to defend ourselves again. Ramallah, Nablus, Tulkarm etc. could all wind up turning into Jenins. Force 17, the Hamas, all the Pals' top forces (what remains of them), led by Yasir 'legend by candlelight' Arafat, will give us the worst of what they've got.
Otoh, if terror has been trounced as badly as it looks right now, I may wind up having a problem getting elected. Right wing pols don't do well in times of quiet.
8697. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 9:45:53 AM
mgleason!!!
8698. mgleason - 4/19/2002 9:47:14 AM
Hiya! I couldn't type for a while, but my doctor's given me the green light as long as I take it easy. It's good to be back.
8699. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 9:48:17 AM
Hey Maria! Hope you continue on the mend, and fast!
8700. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 9:48:58 AM
BTW, there's something about you in the Poetry thread you should read.
8701. Wombat - 4/19/2002 10:14:14 AM
Rustler:
The death toll will be more than the Israelis claim and less than the Palestinians claim. There will probably be many more civilian dead than combatants. Any tactical gains derived from disrupting a major source of terrorism will be more than offset by the propaganda and hatred and moral gains of the Palestinians. You already know that, however. In fact, it could have been predicted.
8702. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 10:22:20 AM
Wombat and RP,
How likely do you think it is that Netanyahu will succeed Sharon?
8703. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 10:24:59 AM
Joe,
If I show a WASP KKK whose child is dressed in a white robe and sporting a swastiga up next to an Afghan Muslim flying a kite with his child, what do you think I've proven?
8704. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 10:25:41 AM
If tactical gain means I can send my kids to school without worrying half as much about a Palestinian zombie tearing their guts out, I'll buy tactical gain. You would too. Anyone would. I could give a fuck what the Danes think about me. I don't care what anyone thinks about me, unless he's got his back against the wall and packs nukes. And the only country likely to fit that description in the coming decades is Israel. You know that.
8705. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 10:27:35 AM
How likely do you think it is that Netanyahu will succeed Sharon?
As likely as Jimmy Carter succeeding George W. Bush.
8706. RustlerPike - 4/19/2002 10:30:59 AM
If I show a WASP KKK whose child is dressed in a white robe and sporting a swastiga up next to an Afghan Muslim flying a kite with his child, what do you think I've proven?
Nothing. Because the bombing of the WTC was not a reaction to fanatical KKK terrorists killing hundreds of Afghan civilians at Ramadan meals. Nor was the KKK headquarters located in the WTC, nor did the WTC put up much of a fight.
8707. Jenerator - 4/19/2002 10:40:24 AM
Arky,
Those are pretty harsh words. Christians since Christ's departure have been waiting and anticipating Christ's return. I don't see how they're bad for believing that the end is more near than ever when all of the signs point that direction. Granted, each generation has believed the end was near, but never before in history have so many prophecies come true, that have come true lately. (One world governement, etc.)
I do not sit and watch the events in Israel unfold like a vulture does its prey, but I DO watch it with a sense of impending doom and curiosity. Not because of the organization I linked to says it's near, but because the signs are all pointed that way and I am scared of what is going to happen next. Personally, I am distressed that the world community isn't recognizing Israel legitimacy and is instead condoning the suicide bombings!!
Secondly, I don't think that a Biblical expert is a moron or a liar if he understands the Book of Revelation. For me, it is extremely difficult to grasp because I am no expert. If I was, I am sure that I would understand more aspects fully like the tribulation,the rapture and so on. There are definitely different thoughts on the book with regards to what is symbol, what isn't and how each prophecy will play out. Ultimately, I don't believe that any of us will ever be able to predict when *exactly* the end will come, but if you use Revelation as any giude, we're closer than ever.
8708. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 10:40:48 AM
The point is not to contrast and/or compare two groups, be they Israelis/Palestinians or reactionary WASPS/Afghans--as you already know, RP. The very simple point is that pulling two pictures up of any group as Joe did shows nothing and is simply propaganda, and not very good propaganda at that.
Hitler loved children.
8709. Jenerator - 4/19/2002 10:43:18 AM
I never read that Hitler loved Children. I was always under the impression that he sort of observed them from afar. He certainly never showed any real compassion for them, even the Arian ones.
8710. Andonly - 4/19/2002 10:48:28 AM
"Spielberg films get made because Spielberg keeps dreaming up new movies and then making them happen. He loves his job, which is one reason he's so successful at it. He is a master, an icon, he has lasted for decades and never had a real challenger. Same thing with Arafat, but substitute 'terror attacks' for 'films'."
You'll never guess who was on Charlie Rose last night completely endorsing the Pikean view of Arafat as Lord High Controller.
None other than Bernard Lewis.
A recap of some notable remarks:
Lewis figures Iran and Iraq are now primarily responsible for driving Palestinian militancy as a means of deflecting the world's focus away from their own states in the wake of American rage post 9-11. He says it's working. Lewis believes there will be no peace in the mideast until the US deposes Saddam. He cited great popular support for the US in Iran, and the fact that 30% of Iraqis would be behind a US attack on Saddam, which is a much greater degree of support than we enjoyed from the Northern Alliance when we went into Afghanistan.
About Arafat, he says huge numbers of documents found by the IDF detailing the Chairman's planning and willing acquiescence to every aspect of the intifada and suicide bombings provide incontrovertible evidence of Arafat being the promoter of the current conflict, over which he has been in complete control all along. Fat's abandonment of Camp David in favor of the intifada, which Lewis concludes occurred not because Fat didn't like the deal (he could have offered a counterproposal but never did) came about becasue Arafat was afraid "peace would break out". In that case, Arafat would have become the tinpot dictator of a trivial backwater, and his career as a glorious revolutionary would be at an end.
8711. Andonly - 4/19/2002 10:49:05 AM
Lewis explained that the difference betweeen Sadat's peace overture to Israel in the 70s and Oslo-Camp David was that the Sadat deal was completely worked out in advance, in total secrecy, and facilitated--but not in any way mediated--by Roumania (under Ceaucescu) and another country I can't recall. The US didn't even hear about the peace-for-land deal until it was a fait accompli. With Camp David, Clinton's mediation gave each party someone other than each other to bargain with; so in essence, each side appealed to the superpower to obtain points.
Lewis was once a supporter of Oslo. He now says he was mistaken about that, and about Arafat, who only knows how to do one thing well, and that's be a terrorist.
On the subject of the settlements, he opined that the Likud's expansion of them had been what brought about the first intifada after about a decade of Pal quiescence under occupation. He said Pals before 1977 were bitterly divided over whether they wanted to be ruled by Jordan or the PLO--the Jordanian monarchy had slaughtered them en masse and the PLO were corrupt thugs. Israel was, he explains, "everybody's second choice".
Lewis said that settlements near the border of Israel were natural expansions of major population centers, but those further into the territories, near major Pal cities and in Gaza, should never have been built, didn't acomplish what they were intended to do wrt providing Israel security, and were "dangerous foolishness".
Rose said several of his guests had told him in the green room that they had been given top-level intelligence information that the post-Camp David intifada had been a result of freelancing by groups opposed to Oslo and a settlement with Israel, and that these forces were beyond Fat's control.
8712. Andonly - 4/19/2002 10:49:22 AM
Lewis said he didn't know anything about that and couldn't assess it, but reiterated the mound of evidence uncovered by the Israelis, convincing him that Arafat had always been in complete control of a tightly regulated, autocratic regime. And, he explained, there had never been on the Palestinians' part any desire to end their conflict with Israel. Any settlement that might be reached was always seen as temporary, until Israel could be eliminated.
He concluded his remarks by saying that Arafat is the problem, that reasonable Palestinians do exist, and that once Arafat is gone they will have a chance of being heard. He said he had talked to a prominent Palestinian (whose name he could not mention because to do so would endanger the man's life) who had said he supported the idea of an Israeli-Palestinian-Jordanian Benelux-type arrangement, in which Palestine would play the part of Luxembourg.
When asked if he thought Sharon was doing the right thing with his military strategy, Lewis said he didn't know yet, that there wasn't enough clear information to make that determination, but that it appeared Sharon had no long-term strategy, only tactics.
8713. arkymalarky - 4/19/2002 10:52:28 AM
Jen,
but never before in history have so many prophecies come true, that have come true lately. (One world governement, etc.)
Study your history. "Signs" much more dramatic than this have been there in the past. What about when the Israelis got control of Jerusalem? Even WWII itself could be made to match much of what's said in Revelation. It's not that difficult to make obscure and symbolic writing fit a literal pattern of history at almost any point.
I don't think Christians will get to Heaven on a ladder of blood and it's wrong, not to mention ignorant and reducing religion to mere superstition, to look to the current deaths and suffering in the area with enthusiasm. That may not be what either you or the designers of that site are doing, but you certainly give that impression.
And a Biblical expert is a moron or liar if he says he understands it fully. He simply doesn't.
There are definitely different thoughts on the book with regards to what is symbol, what isn't and how each prophecy will play out.
Exactly.
Again, let me remind you that 20% of Palestinians are Christians. Not that it's in any way relevant to the actions of either side recently (some of us are able to see two sides), but as one who believes this is the sign of the end.
Ultimately, I don't believe that any of us will ever be able to predict when *exactly* the end will come, but if you use Revelation as any giude, we're closer than ever.
Even if you don't, it's necessary that as we progress in time that would be the case. I personally believe it's wrong to even speculate on it, but that's just my opinion.
I do not want to descend into a religious discussion, so you take the last word