The Mote Archive - Movies pt 2

Pincher/Cellar

Europe may be equally self-contained, but it strikes me as much more culturally varied than the US -- quite aside from language differences.

I disagree with Cellar's assertion that there's great variety here. Growing up, my family moved cross-country repeatedly, and I found local adjustments, school quality, character of the populace pretty uniform everywhere we went, including Corn-fed Heartland states like Ohio as well as culturally diverse places like New Mexico. I think the US is remarkably (distressingly?) homegenous.

The only markedly different region was the deep South, but in the past 25 years, even that area has joined the dominant American culture
But here I go engaging in sweeping generalizations...a practice I impliedly criticised earlier in the CalGal/Candide exchanges.

Toes. The homogenization in this country has accelerated since the times you are talking about, of course. TV, the fact that people move around from region to region so much more (for work or in retirement), the fact that people travel to disparate parts of the country so much more. Fast food chains. Walmarts, Kmarts and their counterparts. All the same restaurants (say, ever been to an Olive Garden? Ycchh.).

Someone might even say that if you stand in the middle of a given shopping strip on a highway leading out of almost any city, there is very little to tell you where in hell in the country you are.

ToeNails --

Europe may be equally self-contained, but it strikes me as much more culturally varied than the US -- quite aside from language differences.

Yes, I agree, but that is more a function of its prehistorical and historical development before the States even existed, and they seem to be moving the opposite direction now.

janjon (5069)

Yes, the strip phenomenon is distressing. What really gets to me is visiting a place like Williamsburg, Va. -- a town dedicated to celebrating the past -- and seeing the identical Burger King/Arbey's strip, block after block, only a mile or so away from the colonial village.

You could be in Winslow, Arizona or North Platte, Neb. and not be able to tell you'd left Williamsburg.

Cellar (Message # 5060): We prefer "The Heartland" to "Flyover Country", thank you very much.

One place where homogenization has taken hold is local TV news. Wherever I go in the U.S., the local news anchorpeople sound exactly the same, bland and accent-free. They must be bred in pods somewhere.

Re: #5071 I doubt you would think you were in North Platte. We don't have strip malls or Gaps or Olive Gardens. And I do miss them all. I am from San Diego and moving to North Platte was like going to the moon.

I probably have seen this issue from the other side more than anyone else here, even though I don't like the homogeneity it creates. From the landlord of the shopping center, he would rather do business with a national chain because:
1. A well known brand will bring people into the center.
2. A national chain will generally have deeper pockets, making it less likely that they will fail to pay rent or go bankrupt (often meaning it's easier and cheaper to get loans to build or refinance the center).
3. National chains do more advertizing (even if it's less per store), increasing sales, and therefore what the store can pay as rent.
4. National chains can buy goods and services cheaper (since they're buying in larger quantities), making them able to pay more rent.

As I said, I don't like it, but it's the way it works.

Sharon:

i know what you mean; we moved from Dallas to Caribou Maine. Talk about culture shock!

We'd drive 200 miles one way to eat in a restaurant with table cloths...

Well, every rule or generalization has its exception. I was a bit surprised to hear SharonS. talke about North Platte, Neb. (although I must admit I don't know beans about the place, how large it is etc.) But, anyone who moves to Caribou, Maine just has to know that they ain't in Kansas any more. Um, WHY would someone move there? Are you or your husband a zoologist specializing in moose?

We have a Mcdonald's and a Burger King but they are blocks apart. Dairy queen is at the other end of town. The only place to eat in our embarassingly pathetic mall is a yogurt joint. We have no restaraunts that have table cloths. I have driven 200 miles for a seafood dinner (Red Lobster) (its the closest thing we can get to a seafood dinner) and over 100 miles for Ben & Jerry's ice cream.... I would absolutely kill for chocolate covered gummy bears (that was my favorite munchie when I was in SoCal.)

I guess it goes without saying that I drew North Platte out of a hat...but I must say I'm surprised to learn that it's somehow avoided the plague.

Let me know when you're ready to leave. Maybe I'll be a buyer for your house.

I was shocked that North Platte was used as an example... before I moved here I didn't even know where it was... and frankly didn't care.

Even plagues don't survive here. Its not that we don't have chains... we don't have anything... no great mom & pop places to eat... no cozy little country stores... With have four large grocery stores in this town and three of them are owned by the same people. They think ethnic food is refried beans. I have lived here for 6 years now and just in the last six months have I been able to buy sea salt. Our library doesn't have any books by Freud and only two books on aromatherapy. We have many retirement villages and many many churches, only two bars that aren't country or private (and one of those is only open Thursday - Saturday).

Somebody save me...

janjon:

My husband was in the military and technically, we lived at Loring AFB. We still don't know who he pissed off to draw that assignment...11 months and 27 days. Canada and Nova Scotia were nice, though, and we'd probably never have seen them had we not been desperate to take escapist trips out of Northern Maine

Sory... I was ranting again... This place makes me a little crazy sometimes... my sincerest apologies.

"Somebody save me.."

Poor Sharon!

...And on top of all that, it's probably still coldern' hell there, right?

The secret of small town living is to choose a semi-successful tourist trap. I'm in a minor-league version of Williamsburg, Va. -- a place interesting enough to draw small conventions but too dull to get overrun with turistas.

But we have museums, art dealers, antiques, good restaurants (well, reasonably good) and nice weather.

We also have Wal-Mart, et al.

Pincher -- Message # 5068

I browsed the thread in TT. Yes there were some good posts, most of them by you but on the whole I wasn't impressed.

But this is seriously off-topic.

I am from SoCal... Born and raised in the high desert and lived for many years in San Diego... In North Platee it is miserably cold in the winter and very humid with (eek) tornadoes in the summer... I will never get used to the weather. I am getting used to the shopping (or lack of) but I could sure use a nice museum or two right about now. Our local television stations are poorly operated and don't always stick to the network programming. We are frequently given nice conservative family and religious fare at random. Any newscasters even mildly professional are quickly gone for bigger and better.

Raskolnikov 5057

Baywatch had only a very short run on US networks, and even in
syndication it has never been more than a minor ratings getter. It
is foreign demand for the show which keeps it going.

Australia has a show like that called "Neighbours". It's a smash hit in Britain but no one with an IQ above bath temperature watches it in OZ.

"Baywatch" tried to buy up a beach in Sydney to film the show here but the entire 'village' came out in anger with placards and the deal folded.

Toenails 5059

Australia is self-contained and miles from anywhere and that makes it more curious about the rest of the world. I don't think that's the entire reason.

When I lived in Maine, we had cable and received an Australian soaper about a family od real estate tycoons, similar to Dynasty here in the states. It was a generational show, and very interesting.

I like many Aussie movies, like Picnic at Hanging Rock and one called Pictures. Judy Davis had a good one a few years ago about a mother and daughter who finally got together after years of being apart. And there was one about a couple who owned a wrecking yard? Smash Palace?

Yeah, yeah. Australia, New Zealand, what's the difference? They all speak with those accents.

Not at all Cal, we New Zealander's are refined and speak English as she should be spoke, unlike those uncouth Aussies who are little more than wanna-be Yanks.

Of course I might seem a little more refined if I didn't persist in putting apostrophes where they are not needed.

Haha, of course not, I say refined in a very "refaihned" manner. BTW, you'll be pleased to learn that this year my daughter is doing a paper in American film since 1967 - we'll be having a break from subtitles for a while.

Cal, good list and I think quite a few of those will be on the required viewing list. Bonnie and Clyde is first up when term starts next week. The staff in this paper encourage students to bring friends to any screenings and as my daughter doesn't mind Mum tagging along I should be able to see a lot of old favourites again.

EAST COAST LATE NIGHT MOVIE ALERT:

If you're up, "The Last of Sheila"-- one of my favorite flicks, for some odd reason-- is on CBS.

It's going to be remade this year. So check it out.

Ace--

I like that one a lot too. It's excellent if only in the sense of eminently watchable. Good cast.

Saw American Beauty last weekend and have just checked motemovies for reviews. Funny, my thinking is no more complicated than, "Did I get $6 worth of entertainment out of that?" My answer is yes. However,my comment to Mrs. Uzmakk was, "This movie stands head and shoulders above everything else Hollywood did this year? Doesn't say much for Hollywood."

On a whim, I rented A Bridge Too Far, the story of Operation Market Garden, or Monty's Attempt at a D-Day. I remember it being thoroughly panned when it came out ("A Bridge Too Long") and I know I watched parts of it a few years later when it came out on TV. But I had never watched the whole film at a sitting. My son has been much interested in WWII lately, so I picked it up.

I was pleasantly surprised.

The movie was cast with almost every major male star or even superstar of the 70s--Redford, Connery, O'Neal, Caan, Hackman, Caine, Gould--as well as major international actors--Anthony Hopkins, Hardy Kruger, Maximilian Schell, Edward Fox, Lawrence Olivier, Dirk Bogard, Liv Ullman.

At the time, this must have overburdened the film something awful--much as seeing Penn, Harrelson, Clooney, Travolta, Cusack, Nolte et. al. was just too much in Thin Red Line. But 20 years later, the top-heavy quality isn't there anymore--the ones that are still considered major stars had a lousy 80s to tarnish their aura and a few of them dropped off the map for a long time and never regained their previous standing.

As a result, the glamour has worn off, and you are left with one happy truth--this group of seventies movie stars were good at their craft. No breast-beating, no "This Is My Oscar Moment" speeches, no real egos in sight.

There isn't a really bad performance in the bunch, although I could have done without Hackman as the Polish general, and O'Neal never quite leaves his pretty boy image behind.

The screenplay, by William Goldman, is tight, dry, and note perfect, with nicely tuned humor. The length comes not from extraneous speechifying, but a detailed and precise telling of a complicated tale. The movie is accurate, apparently faithful to the Cornelius Ryan book it was based on, and places the blame with a fair hand. Attenborough never was an innovative or interesting filmmaker, and he's always been dull--but his ability to tell a story is his major strength, and it is used to advantage here.

There aren't too many moments that stand out from the others, but the sequence of the C47s with their gliders taking off is impressive, as is the drop sequence--pre-CGI, this was done with the real thing, and must have cost a fortune.

I very much enjoyed the moment when Anthony Hopkins, as John Frost, is asked by the Germans if he'd like to discuss a surrender. Hopkins, surrounded on all sides by the enemy, out of ammunition, a third of his troops seriously wounded, is unyielding, so his adjutant responds, politely, "Sorry, we really don't have any facilities here to take you all prisoner, so we can't accept your surrender."

But by far the best sequence is Redford's turn as Julian Cook. Forced to cross a river in daylight and take a bridge against significant odds, he is blessed with men who'll do anything for him and one incredible moment of good luck. This entire segment is excellent; cinematography, editing, script, and performance all work in tandem to elevate the movie momentarily from ordinary, stodgy storytelling to damn good war film. Redford is as good as I've ever seen him, and two or three times as good as normal.

If you haven't seen it, get the DVD or widescreen video version when you've got a few hours to kill and want background noise. You might get drawn into it in spite of yourself--and if you don't, then just hang tight for the Redford sequence.

One note about the movie's accuracy:

One character actively warns against the campaign for all the right reasons. He is named "Major Fuller" in the movie, but he was really Brian Urquhart, later knighted for an accomplished UN career.

I couldn't figure out why they'd changed his name, given he is the one person who was well-known outside the WW II reference. I found a review that mentioned the reason: Sean Connery's character was also named Urquhart, and there was a fear that we'd all be terribly confused by two instances of such an unusual name (by American standards).

Sigh.

Okay, it must be that the Sopranos takes 6 weeks to hit its stride, because tonight's episode was fuckin' great.

"When you're married, you'll understand the importance of fresh produce!"

and

"Be a good Catholic for 15 fucking minutes, is that so much to ask?"

I thought last week's episode was great, too, and had a great laugh out loud line, when Junior was telling Tony about his retarded uncle.

"Yeah, I kinda remember my mother yellin' at Pop about his retarded brother. I thought she meant you."

But tonight's episode was excellent too, especially for a celebrity fuckfest. Favreau had a pretty good-sized part, and pulled it off well. Garofalo's walk-on was decent also. Sandra Bernhard, amazingly, just gets uglier every time I see her. Any more fugly, and Sandy will be sporting a tail.

Yes, I liked last week's too. I wonder if I'll watch the early episodes later and see an improvement?

My uncle called durimg the first 21 minutes so I missed most of the guesting roles...I'll have to catch the reruns on Tuesday. But I really loved the last half!

Who thinks Anthony Jr. felt the wire when Pussy hugged him? That whole thing with Pussy just broke my heart...

Fantasia 2000 -- The original ranks among the best animated movies of all time, so any attempt to duplicate it has to meet a very high standard. This doesn't quite do it, although it sometimes comes very close.

The flaws in this are not too great, but they were annoying. The introductions veered strongly away from the music and instead were cameos from famous actors (Steve Martin, Bette Midler, et al.) whose connection was not at all apparent. Perhaps Disney felt we needed the star power to get people into their seats, although I have no idea why.

A more personal objection comes from the orchestra itself. I grew up listening to the late-Ormandy era of the Philadelphia Orchestra, which continued the lush strings from the Stokowski era of the original Fantasia. The Chicago Symphony seemed too brassy for my taste.

The 8 pieces recycle the original Mickey Mouse as Sorceror's Apprentice from the original, while the others are all new. The greatest successes were the Shostokovich Piano Concerto No. 2 with a Little Tin Soldier-ballerina romance and Stravinsky's Firebird.

Totally enjoyable, but just not as good as the first. 3 1/2 planets (out of 4)

'Watched the first half of the Beachboys made-for-TV movie.

I liked the music then, and I still like it now, but I can't get rid of this recurring image in my mind's eye--a roomful of hip Black guys listening to "Good Vibrations" and laughing their asses off!

Toe:

That was always my reaction to their music...I grew up during early rock'n'roll and used to choak when Pat Boone did covers of Little Richard. They couldn't have been serious?

"Australia is self-contained and miles from anywhere and that makes it more curious about the rest of the world. I don't think that's the entire reason."

I'll also say that population, military and economic power, and national culture (The US was deliberately isolationist for most of its first 165 years)also enter into it.

As well as the size of the entertainment industry. There are only so many times you can watch "Crocodile Dundee" and "Young Einstein" before you have to rely on foreign films for entertainment.

But I actually *like* Priscilla, (as well as Strictly Ballroom, the Mad Max films, Dead Calm, and a few others). Mentioning a good movie would have gotten in the way of my attempt to be an entertainment patriot.

saw three videos recently and I have some brief comments.

Stir of Echoes

This is The Sixth Sense light, it is easily figured out, but it makes up for it in creepiness, and Kathryn Erbie's sex scene. You can rent this and not be angry with my tepid recommendation.

Lake Placid

I laughed, but that's because the movie dispenses with any attempt at realism (it is, after all, about hunting a 30 foot crocodile in Maine) and I am sure Ace penned parts of it (it has former Golden Girl Betty White calling a sheriff "fuck meat").

The Winslow Boy

David Mamet's period piece about an Edwardian (?) scandal is smart and poignant. A proper and intellectual English family short on emotion strives to clear the name of one of their own from what they perceive as a slander to their name (the youngest son is accused of theft - 5 shillings - and expelled from navy school). The father (Nigel Hawthorne of "The Madness of King George") is an eccentric banker who sacrifices the position (financial and otherwise) of his family to clear his son. His daughter (Rebecca Pidgeon) is a suffragette engaged to a military man - as the scandal envelops the family, her social life is shattered.

The family engages the services of Sir Robert Morton (Jeremy Northam), a leading barrister and politician who opposes women's suffrage, but finds himself inexorably drawn to the case and Pigeon.

This is understated and rhythmic dialogue, and Mamet treats each character, major and minor, with dignity. There are no fops or fools. Everyone is multi-faceted and thus, interesting. Mamet's touch and restraint are inerrant.

The film evokes a change to my nominations, though minor:

My Nominations, thus far

Best Picture
Being John Malkovich
The Limey
The Sixth Sense
Election
The Talented Mr. Ripley

Best Actor
Tobey Maguire, The Cider House Rules
Terence Stamp, The Limey
Kevin Spacey, American Beauty
Matthew Broderick, Election
John Malkovich, Being John Malkovich

Best Supporting Actor
Jude Law, The Talented Mr. Ripley
William H. Macy, Happy, Texas
Delroy Lindo, The Cider House Rules
Hayley Joel Osment, The Sixth Sense
Jeremy Northam, The Winslow Boy

Best Actress
Heather Donahue, The Blair Witch Project
Julia Roberts, Notting Hill
Ally Walker, Happy, Texas
Renee Russo, The Thomas Crown Affair
Rebecca Pidgeon, The Winslow Boy

Best Supporting Actress
Catherine Keener, Being John Malkovich
Reese Witherspoon, Election
Julianne Moore, An Ideal Husband
Glenn Close, Cookie's Fortune
Cameron Diaz, Being John Malkovich

I saw Cider House Rules this weekend. Strong story telling although I cannot see why Michael Caine got the nomination for best supporting actor. Very New England in location and in understated acting. He was great in his part, but does Tobey McGuire have any other speeds in his acting abilities than catatonic nice boy?

GJ,

No. None. Although I hear he's good in Wonder Boys.

I like Maguire. But he's very passive.

glenda

Cider House was the first time I'd seen Maguire. Suffice to say that after viewing Pleasantville, he benefitted from a first viewing.

PM,
Ice Storm was excellent. It deserved far better recognition than it received.

I think he was equally good in both Cider House and Pleasantville. Nothing terrible about him, but that squeaky voice doesn't allow for a lot of range.

I saw Cider House--the big surprise to me was the rather repugnant racism in it. But then, I didn't see it as a major pro-choice movie, either.

Viewed "Cider House" over the weekend...not a good as I hoped, better probably than I thought. The scenes from New England, cold and true, touched me in a way the characters didn't. A kind physician and orphans are sureshots for tearjerk appeal, but I wonder if the stereotypes didn't cut off significant character development. Tobi McGwire gumped his person with desired affect, and cute faces of children danced like sugar plums across the screen. The plot was interesting, with the notion that anything could happen anytime. The contemporary and seemingly obligatory sexual child molester was seen as a backdrop for the historical need for abortion, African-Americans were again established as happy fruit pickers, and drug-addiction to ether is now penciled in for the next Oprah. A good watch, all-in-all, with no fear of teenage noise and its usual complement of popcorn crunching and sexual laughter.

I caught Cider House Rules as well. McGuire played the same non-entity he played in Pleasantville. I don't think he had a whole lot to work with, since his character was expressly described as always trying to stay calm, but I can't remotely comprehend Niner's support for him as best actor.

I didn't think it was a *bad* film. The orphanage scenes worked okay (although I have never seen any orphanage scenes which *didn't* succeed at tugging the ole heartstrings), and I find that I really like Paul Rudd as an actor, but the film generally struck me as wavering between confusion and obviousness. That scene where Homer burns the titular rules is one of the most ridiculous piece of symbolism I have seen. Most movies at least *try* to make the symbolism fit within the narrative.

I saw! If you make it to the last round, pick Movies, call me as your Lifeline, and have a quote-worthy witticism ready.

SharonSchroeder, I used to spend summers working in the Thedford-Valentine area and know North Platte, circa 1955 well. We used to go over every year for the 4th of July rodeo. Also, a divorced uncle of mine used to frequent a bordello in North Platte. That was fine until he got tired of the drive or wanted to see the lady more often and brought her back to Thedford and installed her in a unused house on my Grandfather's place. That worked out okay for a couple of weeks until she and my uncle became the hottest topic of conversation in Thedford and word leaked out to my grandfather in Brownlee. That ended my uncle's cozy setup pdq! I have fond memories of that part of Nebraska (summers only)but can see it would be a downer for someone moving from San Diego. One other item I recall. Before he died another uncle spent some time in a nursing home in North Platte. Next door to the nursing home was a funeral home owned by the same people as the nursing home. Talking about vertical integration! Nebraskans are practical folk and nobody seemed to give the arrangement a second thought.

glendajean et al.,
does Tobey McGuire have any other speeds in his acting abilities than catatonic nice boy?

Did you see him in Ride With the Devil? He was rough and ready in that one, hardly uncorrupted youth.

What has happened to Ellen Barkin? I saw this weirdo S&M/bondage type fiasco with Peta Wilson and Ellen Barkin last night... Mercy and mercy! was that ever a dog. Julian Sand as a transvestite S&M devotee who is also a therapist. But the worst part was Barkins face which has cratered badly. Has she been ill or diagnosed with something? Lord....y.

She played tacky trailor park trash in a movie with that woman from Veronica's Closet about a beauty pagent in Minnesota. Looked the same as you described, Judith. At first, I didn't realize it was her.

Barkin apparently is going to marry Ronald Perlman. Even with a antenuptual agreement, she's at least in clover.

Sad to hear that that great face is going. She was the real thing, imho.

Her body still looked great but her face seems to be getting very round and flattened, with this caved in look. I hardly recognized her, either, GJ...this movie was made in 99. Maybe her hair was contributing to this awful look. It was flat and long and parted in the middle. But close-ups did her no favors AT ALL...

I'm glad she's hooked a rich one...maybe she's happy with him.

Well I saw "The Next Best Thing." Could I have the thing after that? Like "Isn't She Great?" It's another Bad-Good-Idea. Rupert gets Madonna pregnant in a just-one-of-those-things moment. She decides to keep the child and he embraces fatherhood with a passion that would put Dan Savage to shame. Rupert Everett as a Daddy -- what a dream come true. And for the first half-hour "Next" looks like it's going to be what a Rock Hudson Doris Day comedy might have been like if Rock had been out. Then Madonna meets Julia Roberts' boytoy Benjamin Bratt (moderatelyhumpy, not Cellar's type but wouldn't throw him out of bed), quabbles with Ruert and decides to raise the kid with her new love. Soon we're in court and the film turns into "Kramer vs. Madonna." Gack! The minutes fly by like hours as Rupert trundles around with a permanent hang-dog expression. Gone is the fizz of the first half -- which featured cameos by Gavin Lambert, George Axelrod, and a swimming scene with Mo (Rupert's black labrador retreiver.) If thee's anything the moviegoing public doesn't need it's the gay version of "Madame X." Especially from the director of "Darling," "Sunday Bloody Sunday," "The Day of the Locust," and "An Englishman Abroad."

I rented "The Bride Wore Black" and comment on it mostly for Niner, who said he recently read Truffaut's book on Hitchcock (which I also happened to have reread a couple of months ago). The film is Truffaut's homage to Hitch and stars Jeanne Moreau as a widowed bride tracking down the five men she considers responsible for her groom's death.

Mostly, I'd say that although the movie seems on the surface anti-male, it's really anti-sex. Moreau is a virgin and in one sequence she models Diana, the huntress, who of course killed Actaeon for seeing her nude. Moreau's victims are all skirt chasers whose daily lives are insipid and at least in one case criminal. Her less physical, more romanticized love, however, appears no better as it leads to madness and death.

One criticism I have is that Moreau just isn't physically attractive enough for the role, although Truffaut may have wanted to make men seem even more pathetic by how easily even a "passable" woman leads them astray. Considering her frigid exterior, general rudeness, and age, I found it difficult to believe she could more or less seduce male after male so easily--especially as with one exception we're supposed to believe these men were highly successful with the ladies.

The movie is worth a watch for its stylistic value and a fair amount of suspense, but it drags in parts. And I did burst out laughing at a couple of unintentionally humorous places: i.e., the plot relies on contrivances such as one might find in the EC comic books of the 1950s.

Her attractiveness is of a different order. Catherine Deneuve would have been perfect in that part.

Celler, too bad about the Everett-Madonna movie. Another one that I was looking forward to see. Thanks for the warning.

So, I saw this ad today for something with Julia Roberts and it looks like she is playing some sort of Law Office Pretty Woman...anyone know anything about this movie? Not that I'm going to SEE it, just wondered if there was any talk about it. Sorry, I cannot recall the title; it's her characters name, though.

Judith,

The Julia Roberts movie might be fun--it's hard to tell. Nice to see Finney working.

Well, there is indeed some script on the right hand side and I can make out "Johnny".

He must have seen Speed and gotten hold of Keanu Reeve's personal trainer.

Given that the still is from Platoon, I'd say that any copying was done by Keanu.

He still looks like a wuss next to the new guy on NYPDBlue....but then, who wouldn't?

Was Platoon before Gilbert Grape? If so, I would accuse Depp of being twins. One pumped up, one not.

That was a good episode last night. I was really moved when the bigwig headed for a breakdown pointed out that here it was, the first time any black man had paid attention to this kid--and it was to elicit a confession.

It reminded me of that prosecutor, speaking about the kid in Michigan. "We're going to put our arms around this little boy".

Yeah? Suppose he'd walked up to the cops a week ago and said, "My dad's in jail, my mom has moved out, my uncle keeps guns and drugs in the house, I'm scared, and I want help."

No one would have given a damn. He shoots someone, then we care.

Platoon was '86, Gilbert was '93.

and that guy on NYPD Blue couldn't possibly be any more dishy.

And Cellar, that is such a drag about "Next Best Thing". But it always annoys me that women can decide to just yank a kid away from his dad just because she's got a new man in her life.

Yeah, Cal, I kinda caught a whiff of that last week. Unfortunately, I didn't see last night's show, as I was comatose by 10 pm.

"So, I saw this ad today for something with Julia Roberts and it looks like she is playing some sort of Law Office Pretty Woman...anyone know anything about this movie?"

The film is called "Erin Brokovich". On the bright side, it is directed by Steven Soderbergh, who has been on a hot streak lately, even providing the then-contemptable George Clooney with one of the best reviewed films of that year in Out of Sight. I won't be lining up to see the film, but I also am not putting it on my "no fucking way" list. I'll wait for reviews and word of mouth.

No, but that's very funny, since when I clicked on the movie link that, too, was the movie I was expecting to see. I wonder what movie we're thinking of?

I'll quote Maltin, since it's brief:

Imaginative fable of Britain taken over by the Nazis during WW2, made in semidocumentary style by two ingenious young filmmakers. Brits keep a stiff upper lip during fascist persecution; leading lady Murray is the odd woman out, as a nurse thought to be collaborating with the enemy.

It was directed by Kevin Brownlow, who I know of more as a film historian than a director. It was a true indy, made back in 1961--he shot it over 8 years, on weekends, for about 20,000. I'd never heard of it before today.

CalGal:

I would say "great minds" but mine is distinctly sub-par these days as far as recalling movies. I, too, wonder which movie we could've been mulling over.....

I just got a copy of "It Happened Here" on DVD. Brownlow started shooting the film when he was just a teenager. It took years to complete. Quite interesting, as is his other film "Winstanley."

That's it. I'd never heard of it before, but I queued it up in Netflix.

Those of you who don't have DVD, get it. Those of you who do have DVD, I am checking out the Marquee program at Netflix--assuming they deliver in a timely manner, I have to tell you that it is fantastic. (But whatever you do, don't select too many movies at once before checking out.)

And thanks to Rask for recommending it.

Last night I watched a Spanish film we had taped: Secrets of the Heart. Set in the 60s in Navarre, it was one of thos films, that the Spanish seem to excel at, of a world seen through the eyes of children. Why is it that nowadays all children can act?

This film was exquisite.

"...it was one of thos films, that the Spanish seem to excel at, of a world seen through the eyes of children."

Definitely check out Carlos Suara's "Cria!".

T. Tallis

I've seen it. This was almost as good. Unfortunately I'd have to put the tape on to check the Spanish name and the director which I will do as soon as possible. This time it was about little boys.

Candide:

I think all children excell at acting all the time. You can never tell what's going on in the mind of a child. I know that I always felt like I was acting a part as the "good child" when in my little cold heart, I felt quite evil. I think many kids are like this...thespians at life.

Judith

I agree with that. We were all trying to please I think. The origin of lies. But you study the acting of children in earlier films and compare them with modern kids. The modern kids aren't even acting. They're "being".

I was channel-hopping and bumped into The Country Girl, with Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly. I have never forgiven Grace for winning the Oscar that year over Judy Garland in A Star is Born--she apparently received it for Wardrobe Trauma Above and Beyond the Call of Duty (poor girl's clothes came from Sears!)--and I've never really much cared for the story.

But Bing is fantastic--beaten, old, insecure. His opening number is superb--he was able to let it rip more than he was allowed to in his musicals. If you come across it, stay long enough to see him sing.

Although I swear, the man's hips had to have been physically attached to his shoulders.

I have the Spanish name of the film I mentioned earlier.
Secretos del corazón written and directed by Mantxo Armendáriz.

CalGal
Crosby
Although I swear, the man's hips had to have been physically attached to his shoulders. hahaha

Agnes Brown: Anjelica Huston is a widow with 6 children in a small Irish town. Sentimental and episodic; reviewers are shrugging at it, but seems harmless enough.

What Planet Are You From?--Alien (Larry Shandling) gets fitted with a penis, comes to earth to impregnate women and take over the world. Also stars Annette Bening, Greg Kinnear, and Ben Kingsley. Reviews are mixed; I'm interested to see what people here think of it.

5194. JudithAtHome - 3/3/2000 11:55:47 AM

Our newspaper reviewers panned the Madonna movie big time...it got a 3/4 page with headline "The Next Worst Thing" and only one star out of 5.

Local TV reviews of "Planet" were extremely positive.

5195. JudithAtHome - 3/3/2000 11:56:35 AM

By the way, did you know the photo from "My Dog..." didn't load?

5196. wonkers2 - 3/3/2000 9:40:43 PM

Just got home from Sweet and Lowdown. What a vehicle for Sean Penn! He's my man for best actor. And what a triumph of creative imagination for Woody Allen. He deserved a nomination for best screenplay, IMO. Aside from Sean Penn's brilliant acting, the score featuring Howard Alden's jazz guitar was a treat. Also, Smanatha Morton as Penn's mute doormat girlfriend was great but not quite up to an Oscar for best supporting actress. She reminded me of Michael J. Pollard's character in Bonnie and Clyde or, as one of the critics observed, of Giuletta Massina in La Strada, but not quite as memorable.

5197. Candide - 3/4/2000 1:52:00 AM

wonkers2

At last, someone has praised Woody Allen.

5198. CalGal - 3/4/2000 1:55:25 AM

Your notion of time or definition of praise is severely out of kilter.

5199. Candide - 3/4/2000 1:57:09 AM

Why? How? ??

5200. Candide - 3/4/2000 1:58:29 AM

CalGal

It's just that it's widely believed that Allen is more admired outside the USA and I have been watching for a mention. Not, I grant you, with hawk-like attention.

5201. CalGal - 3/4/2000 1:59:26 AM

Because Woody Allen regularly receives praise, yet you seem to think he must wait a long time for a few crumbs.

5202. CalGal - 3/4/2000 2:07:01 AM

It's just that it's widely believed that Allen is more admired outside the USA

Well, it's widely believed that Elvis is dead, too, but only among the severely inbred population centers.

Allen has received 20 Oscar nominations (6 in this decade) and won 3. While not everyone likes him, and he's never been a huge popular success, he is certainly considered one of the pre-eminent American directors and writers. He lost a few points for hitting on his girlfriend's teenage daughter, but frankly, he's a bigger talent than Mia so he was forgiven.

5203. Candide - 3/4/2000 2:12:17 AM

CalGal

Fits my picture. I had read that his films were poorly attended in the US. I knew his recent sins had done him no good.

Personally I found "Deconstructing Harry" to be uproariously funny. Our local bad girl, Judy Davis, was well cast too.

5204. wonkers2 - 3/4/2000 7:33:22 AM

C & C, In my opinion, Woody approaches the level of Chaplin--actor, director, writer. I suppose one criticism is that for a long time he dwelled on the neurotic New Yorker theme which was very funny and insightful but got too predictable. But he has broken out of that rut several times as in Sweet and Lowdown which is a gem.

5205. CalGal - 3/4/2000 1:19:07 PM

I just want to encourage everyone with a DVD to check out Netflix--see the details in the butterscotch bar. I've started and man, I'm sold. If it's something that a disorganized soul like this one can manage, then anyone can do it.

I signed up for the Marquee program, which is $20/month for unlimited movies, unlimited time. But if you want to use it on an ad hoc basis, it still works out to $10 for 2 movies for 7 days. That's a couple bucks more than Blockbuster charges for 5 days, I believe. But late fees are only 99 cents a week per movie (which is a hell of a lot cheaper than BB).

Besides, if you don't think the incredible selection and convenience is worth an extra couple bucks, I'll be surprised. I made my first order on Wednesday; the movies were in Friday's mail--all set for the weekend.

I decided to rent at least one movie each week that is outside my normal interest range--the two major categories I'm focusing on are foreign films and silent films. I have a queue of 76 movies already--still, I'm well behind Raskolnikov's 200.

And thanks again to Rask for pushing this--I wouldn't have heard of it without him, and I've been getting fed up with the selection at video stores (it's not like things are much better at the independents).

BTW--If you don't have a DVD, treat yourself. You'll never regret it.

5206. PsychProf - 3/4/2000 1:22:53 PM

Cal...why not link your new movies to the topics of interest bar on the home page.

5207. CalGal - 3/4/2000 1:24:50 PM

Great minds, Prof. But here's my concern. I want to make sure that I remember to do this every week. If I remember next week and get it done on time, then I'll add it both to the butterscotch bar and the front page.

5208. CalGal - 3/4/2000 1:26:14 PM

God.

It occurs to me I'm SUCH a commitment-phobe. In other words, the reason I didn't want to put it on the front page yet is because I'm worried I'll forget.

Wuss. Wimp. PIKER.

I'll do it.

(wanders away, snivelling.)

5209. Candide - 3/4/2000 4:27:45 PM

CalGal

I look forward to hearing your take on the foreign films. Have you seen the 1963 French film based on an old silent movie serial Judex?
It's a great exercise in style.

Another one I'd enjoy hearing from you about is Lina Wertmuller's Mimi Mettalurgico1972. It contains the only rape scene where one is sorry for the rapist.

And The Nasty Girl directed by Michael Verhoeven.1990

5217. Candide - 3/4/2000 4:35:21 PM

i>Metallurgico sorry. It's before coffee.

5218. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 4:40:02 PM

Way before, I'd guess. :-)

5219. CalGal - 3/4/2000 4:41:12 PM

Zounds. If you ladies don't object, I'll clean this up?

5220. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 4:45:05 PM

CalGal:

I read your suggestion about DVD players and the site Netflix over in...where ever that was. My husband and I have decided to look at DVD players this weekend.

5221. Candide - 3/4/2000 4:58:21 PM

CalGal

Thanks.

5222. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:02:50 PM

Candide,

Frankly, I'm not sanguine about my take on foreign films--and I'm focusing first on the Frrrrrrrench. But thanks for reminding me of Lina--I will add her to the list.

I view any problems of foreign films as being one of my own failed sensibilities--not the fault of the film. It's not that I mind subtitles, either. Usually, it's the story. I'm sitting there going, what--are you folks just dumber than stumps? What's the problem, here?

And I have the problem most often with French and Italian films. But I'm viewing it like vegetables. It will be good for me to experiment.

Incidentally, I do like many French films. I am looking forward to seeing Diabolique again, and I very much enjoyed La Grande Illusion when I saw it at the Castro earlier this year.

I've got the following French films queued up:

Diabolique
Beauty and the Beast
The Umbrellas of Cherbourg

Not very daring of me, but I figured it's a start.

I am much more excited about the silent films I'm going to see. I saw City Lights last night--I'm not even sure if I've ever seen the whole thing before. Amazing film. I highly recommend that you run out and get a good print of it. But be warned--video prints of silent films are often of horrible quality.

5223. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:03:40 PM

Judith,

A convert! I'm so pleased. I'm assuming you have a reasonably new TV? If it's older than 5 years or so, then consider springing for that, too.

(Sony and JVC pay me the big bucks.)

5224. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:04:33 PM

Oh, and Candide, I just queued up Seven Beauties, based on your mention of Wertmuller. Thanks again.

5225. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 5:08:32 PM

CAlGal:

No, both our TVs are new.

Candide:

I like several Lina Wertmueller movies, my fave being The Seven Beauties and I actually like Here We Are At the End of the World In Our Usual Bed In a Night Full of Rain or maybe I just like saying the whole title too much!

5226. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 5:09:30 PM

Oh, and Swept Away .

5227. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:14:49 PM

Oh, good. Then you'll love it. It's loads of fun to go through the special features. I loved the commentary on Alien and Bowfinger (both by directors). They remain my favorite so far.

I loved it when Ridley Scott goes, "Wow! That really did come out nice--I'd forgotten!" Frank Oz's comments remind me of how incredibly important it is to remember timing and pace in comedy. He describes several ruthless edits.

5228. SnowOwl - 3/4/2000 5:18:44 PM

last year we saw My Name is Joe complete with subtitles. It is considered a foreign language film in the States. Since I am married to a Glaswegian I have some sympathy with that point of view.

Actually, it's rather silly to ask someone what they think of "foreign films". There are good and bad movies filmed everywhere and unless you want to talk about particular films the question is fairly meaningless.

5229. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:30:48 PM

That actually brings up an interesting cultural issue, Snow. I translated Candide's use of "foreign film" in the American sense, which is also how I used it. Given that this is not a US forum, I should have been more accurate.

When you hear an American say "foreign film", they usually mean a subtitled European movie. English language films are not included--neither are Japanese films, which are referred to as either chop-socky, Godzilla, or samurai (Jackie Chan, sci-fi, or Kurasawa).

So when I said that I was planning on focusing on "foreign films", I was using the term in a way that most Americans would have subconsciously translated as "European films". I will focus on European films--starting with the French.

Just another case of CalGal demonstrating the Ugly American.

5230. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 5:32:13 PM

Snow Owl:

Yes, and you'd be surprised how many people think "foriegn" in front the word film automatically means excellence, no matter if it's a boring lump of incomprehensible nonsense.

But then, there's the opposite experience, too...one of my friends said she would go to the movies with me only if she didn't have to "read" them.

5231. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 5:35:12 PM

CalGal:

The horror! I would never refer to a Kurosawa film as "chop Socky" or "suey" either one....I live with someone who speaks fluent Japanese and thinks in terms of Kurosawa being a god.:-)

5232. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:37:31 PM

When I think of "foreign films", the first thing that comes to mind is The Bicycle Thief. Yes, yes, I'm sure it's a beautiful movie, and it only proves my sensibilities are shot to shit and back, but I'm like, people, it's a damn bicycle! (Proof that I'm just as plebe as they get.)

The second thing that comes to mind is any movie where people drink coffee out of little cups and smoke incessantly, looking unhappy and wearing a great deal of black. Of course, that could be any number of Frrrrench films.

Third thing to mind is Liv Ullman. She also looks unhappy but she doesn't seem to wear black.

In short, "foreign films" and "films that aren't made in America" are two entirely different things in the CalGal Lexicon.

5233. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:39:58 PM

Judith,

No, no! Kurosawa is samurai! Jackie Chan is chop socky. Check your dictionary. Anyway, I like Japanese movies.

For example, when I made the decision that I would focus on "foreign films", I already had Yojimbo, Ran, and The Seven Samurai in my queue. Those aren't "foreign films", they're movies!

5234. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 5:40:08 PM

AAAArrrggghhhhh.....we'll get you yet, my pretty. And your little dog, too! Oh wait....you don't have a dog....

5235. SnowOwl - 3/4/2000 5:41:52 PM

Haha Cal,

I'm glad you explained that, although I think your categorisation is one shared by quite a number of people.

Judith,

The thing I find really irritating about the types who believe that anything in another language must be excellent is that they usually also hold the converse to be true - that anything made in America and popular must be bad.

5236. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:45:59 PM

Snow--you wouldn't have any one, um, particular in mind, would you?

5237. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 5:46:36 PM

Snow Owl:

Yes, but I suppose it's lucky we don't all agree on what is "best"...I like having lots of choices. Although I wouldn't lose sleep if Jerry Bruckheimer never backed another movie.

5238. SnowOwl - 3/4/2000 5:47:48 PM

Now would I think that way, Cal? I'm much too open and honest to ever make sly suggestions disguised as comment.

5239. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:49:41 PM

That's true. I ought not to have misjudged you so egregiously.

Judith,

You'd leave the world without Con Air?

5240. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 5:50:58 PM

CalGal:

Oh yes indeedy....and anything else he and that addled Simpson ever did.

5241. SnowOwl - 3/4/2000 5:52:32 PM

Oh God. One of my kids liked Con Air. But he only liked it because he likes films that are really bad.

5242. CalGal - 3/4/2000 5:54:41 PM

Snow,

He must be the one who likes "foreign films".

5243. SnowOwl - 3/4/2000 5:59:05 PM

Haha, Cal, as long as they involve lots of flying fists of fury. It's the youngest daughter that's particularly keen on "foreign films", although I must be fair and admit she does have fairly eclectic tastes.

5244. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 6:06:03 PM

Okay, I'm gone for the day...got busted for agreeing with people by the intrepid Rosetta.

Enjoy the weekend....

5245. Candide - 3/4/2000 6:46:56 PM

CalGal and Judith

A terrible confession. I haven't seen Seven Beauties. Not that I wouldn't love to.

5246. Candide - 3/4/2000 6:55:09 PM

Calgal and Snowowl
When I said "foreign films" I was quoting CalGal and my US movie guide books. De Sica's "Bicycle Thief" is beautiful and I hope I don't sound too uppity if I say it really helps to at least have a feel for the Italian language, even if you don't speak it.

Oh yes. Do watch the japanese film Tampopo if you haven't done so already.

I don't automatically expect non US films to be superior. But they often come from a freer creative process that makes them less predictable.

5247. Candide - 3/4/2000 6:56:50 PM

CalGal 5232

You haven't suffered until you've sat behind two lesbians sharing one orange.

Not that there's anything wrong with it.

5248. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 6:57:37 PM

CalGal:

Ever see Betty Blue ? That's a jarring French film...

5249. Candide - 3/4/2000 6:59:57 PM

CalGal

You're going to watch Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast. Confession. I CAN'T STAND Jean Marais.

5250. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:03:31 PM

Snowowl

You are sometimes an old cat. So there. I happen to love lots of American films.

5251. CalGal - 3/4/2000 7:06:09 PM

You haven't suffered until you've sat behind two lesbians sharing one orange.

Actually, I used to go to Holly Near concerts fairly often. I know suffering, Candide.

5252. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:08:02 PM

I have been spared that one.

5253. CalGal - 3/4/2000 7:09:07 PM

Well, that's not fair because I quite like Holly Near's voice. You would luuuuuuuv her, I promise. Her politics are right in line with your own.

5254. CalGal - 3/4/2000 7:09:55 PM

I only meant, though, that Holly Near concerts give one quite a bit of experience in sitting behind lesbians. I never was lucky enough to get the front row.

5255. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:16:34 PM

CalGal
Not if she attracts orange-sharers they're not my views. I've grown out of politics. They're for kids. I once sat through some of a conflict-resolution meeting where I was the only person not dressed in overalls. I decided that I preferred conflict. You see. Nobody understands me. I took the option of leaving the room. That may have been Seguine's option 3. (see internat. thread - only don't bother.)

5256. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:16:43 PM

CalGal
Not if she attracts orange-sharers they're not. I've grown out of politics. They're for kids. I once sat through some of a conflict-resolution meeting where I was the only person not dressed in overalls. I decided that I preferred conflict. You see. Nobody understands me. I took the option of leaving the room. That may have been Seguine's option 3. (see internat. thread - only don't bother.)

5257. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:18:38 PM

Sorry CalGal. Grenlins rule today.

5258. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:21:21 PM

and gremlins.

5259. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:33:38 PM

CalGal

You must know Jacques Tati's films. Monsieur Hulot's Holiday. Mon Oncle.

As a young Californian you will have to adjust to the idea of shabby romanticism being preferable to shiny modernism. But to a woman of your capacities.....

5260. CalGal - 3/4/2000 7:40:03 PM

Candide,

Alas. That is precisely what I object to. But here I am, renting Frrrrrench films.

I've been waiting for the system to slow up here at work, and browsing the foreign film category at Netflix. This is now my French films list:

Diabolique
Beauty and the Beast
Umbrellas of Cherbourg
Black Orpheus
Belle Epoque
Cleo from 5 to 7
Entre Nous
Passion of Joan of Arc
Grande Illusion (to see again)
La Femme Nikita (yeah, so shoot me)

5261. CalGal - 3/4/2000 7:40:36 PM

Ha! To SPEED up. It has been slow all day. (I'm speaking of a work system, not the Mote)

5262. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:43:31 PM

CalGal

I won't say anything about your films (apart from Jean Marais - the atmospherics are wonderful anyway) because I don't want to spoil them.

5263. Candide - 3/4/2000 7:45:09 PM

I'll just say that I saw Black Orpheus when I was a student and we all did the samba all the way home.

5264. TabouliJones - 3/4/2000 7:48:16 PM

The Passion of Joan of Arc is an absolute must see. it is an astounding, lyrical, silent movie with an astounding, lyrical,by Maria Falconetti. Pauline Kael and many others cite Falconetti's performance as one of the most compelling of all time.

5265. TabouliJones - 3/4/2000 7:49:06 PM

Damn: That's: astounding, lyrical, performance by . . .

5266. CalGal - 3/4/2000 7:52:06 PM

TJ,

As I mentioned, the other category I'm focusing on is silent films, so Joan of Arc qualifies for both.

There is a thread devoted to silent films over at TT, and they were raving about it as well--which caused me to remember Ebert's accolades in his Great Movies section. I couldn't find it in Netflix at first, but happily, it's there. I find it rather alarming, actually. It can't be that good.

5267. TabouliJones - 3/4/2000 7:58:36 PM

Calgal,

It really is quite astounding. The movie is largely a series of extreme close-ups on Falconetti's big, languid eyes as she conveys Joan of Arc's emotional convictions and conflicts as she is being tried as a witch. It truly is one of the best movies I have ever seen; and you don't need to have an affinity for silent movies to become immersed in it.

I see that City Lights is on your list. I have not yet seen it, but I keep hearing excellent things about it. I think Woody Allen lists it as a masterpiece. I have seen other Chaplin movies, however. The one with Jackie Koogan -- The Kid, I believe -- and Modern Times stand out in my memory.

5268. CalGal - 3/4/2000 8:05:34 PM

TJ,

I watched City Lights last night, in fact--it was my inaugural Netflix movie. I can't really remember if I've seen it before, or just the highlights.

It is wonderful. It's not only Allen who mentions it as a masterpiece; I think many critics consider it Chaplin's finest and one of the best movies ever made.

5269. CalGal - 3/4/2000 8:07:32 PM

Am I the only person who feels that way about Chaplin comedies, btw? I have seen the clips of the funniest moments any number of times, and then sometimes I'll watch specials on Chaplin, or run across one of his movies on PBS. So I'm not always sure if I've actually seen the movie, or just seen so many clips it feels like it. Same with Keaton and Harold Lloyd.

I do know I've seen The Gold Rush--I watched it in my sophomore drama class. I'm looking forward to seeing it again.

5270. TabouliJones - 3/4/2000 8:12:29 PM

When I first made a deliberate attempt to see full length Chaplin movies I was surprised at how well they held together as movies. I had always figured that Chaplin could be reduced to a bunch of funny vaudevillian gags; and that once you had seen one or two of them, you had basically seen the entirey of his oeuvre. Man was I wrong.

5271. Cellar Door - 3/4/2000 8:31:07 PM

By that point he had refined vaudeville into something else. "City Lights" is sublime. Especially the ending -- an astonishingly poetic rendering of "Amazing Grace." And much else.

5272. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:32:30 PM

Many years ago children, I lived in a house on a cliff by the sea in New Zealand and didn't have TV. We hired all of Chaplin's films and a screen and projector and watched them again and again. We also saw some on the big screen. Then in London we saw them again on better screens. I think I have seen all of Chaplins films and most more than once. I'd unreservedly say that he was a great artist. You must have seen "The Immigrant."? Do it.

A couple of years ago I had a strange encounter in a bookshop in my Sydney suburb. A woman was buying a book and somehow we got chatting and she actually turned out to have been Chaplin's secretary for some years. She said she worshipped him but couldn't stand Oona. She also spent about twenty minutes pouring out disillusion and venom about Mitterand. Qhite an encounter.

5273. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:33:33 PM

Quaite!

5274. CalGal - 3/4/2000 8:33:51 PM

Ain't that the truth.

I wonder if it is even possible to combine genres the way Chaplin did. City Lights finds a very tight balance between physical slapstick and sentimentality that just isn't really possible today. These days, if the down and out bum wants to help the blind girl, if the tramp wants to keep the kid, we get impatient--manipulative, derivative, cheap and easy. It's been done before.

But of course, it's been done before because Chaplin did it so well the first time--back when it hadn't been done before--that his approach was copied for decades.

5275. TabouliJones - 3/4/2000 8:34:27 PM

Oona, Oprah. Oprah, Oona.

5276. JudithAtHome - 3/4/2000 8:34:55 PM

Cal:

See if you can get Children of Paradise ; it's a classic made during the occupation of Paris. With Arletty....very moving.

5277. Cellar Door - 3/4/2000 8:36:44 PM

Cellar Door's French films :

Playtime

Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train

Contempt

The Umbrellas of Cherbourg

Les Amant du Pont-Neuf

Zero de Conduite

Duelle

Cleo de 5 a 7

Le Testament D'Orphee

India Song

5278. TabouliJones - 3/4/2000 8:36:50 PM

And if you are going to watch silent movies, you have to see Un Chien Andalou -- the Luis Bunuel/Salvador Dali classic, famous for the razor blade to the eye sequence.

5279. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:38:06 PM

Tabouli Jones

Mrs Chaplin number 4. Daughter of playwright Eugene O'Neill and mother of Geraldine Chaplin who is a dead ringer of her Mum.

5280. CalGal - 3/4/2000 8:38:19 PM

I looked for it, Judith, but it doesn't seem to be out on DVD yet.

5281. TabouliJones - 3/4/2000 8:39:34 PM

Candide,

I knew who you were talking about. I just couldn't resist being a dumb-ass for a moment.

5282. CalGal - 3/4/2000 8:39:40 PM

I've got two of Cellar's films on my list!! Jeez, I wonder why?

5283. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:40:03 PM

AND have you seen Bunuel's "The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie"?

5284. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:41:58 PM

Put Tampopo

5285. Candide -3/4/2000 8:43:41 PM

What's wrong with my machine? I went on to say that the director of "Tampopo" Juzo Itami, was murdered recently so there won't be any more.

5286. Candide - 3/4/2000 8:44:31 PM

and I had closed italics after the first "Tampopo".

5287. Indiana Jones - 3/4/2000 8:46:28 PM

I rented "The Train" (1964) with Burt Lancaster, Paul Scofield, and Jean Moreau and strongly recommend it.

Lancaster is a French stationmaster/member of the resistance charged with thwarting Nazi colonel Scofield's attempt to ship an enormous cache of art treasures from Paris to Germany, via train. Unfortunately, the character and Lancaster's acting require that he be American, but the plot, script, and his name all say he's Parisian. If the viewer can overlook this flaw (which isn't so difficult once the train pulls out of the station), the rest of the film is firstrate.

The train sequences--which were filmed entirely with real trains, rather than models--and Scofield are particularly superb, as are the performances in general. Aside from Lancaster's inability to act "French," he's good too, especially in scenes requiring athleticism--his circus acrobat training makes for natural realism as he slithers in and out of windows and over walls.

The film lags some as various attempts at slowing up the train become repetitive, but the last fifteen minutes are one of the most nearly perfect endings I've ever seen. So many films blow it at the end that I was bowled over by the finale's sheer flawlessness.

We have a lot of war movie buffs here at the Mote, and those who haven't done so should give "The Train" a ride.

5288. TabouliJones - 3/4/2000 8:47:19 PM

Candide,

I saw The Discrete Charm of the Bourgeoisie years ago, but it was beyond my cinematic comprehension at the time. Last year i rented a bunch of his movies, including: The Phantom of Liberty, Belle de Jour, Mexican Bus Ride and a couple of his other Mexican flicks -- all of which were very good. His autobiography -- My Last Sigh -- is also delightful.

5289. CalGal - 3/4/2000 8:50:49 PM

Indy,

The Train is on my list, too. I've only seen it on TV, am very much looking forward to it.

Have you seen Seven Days in May or the Manchurian Candidate?

5290. Candide - 3/4/2000 9:00:32 PM

Indiana Jones

I've got Buñuel's autobiography. Odd, interesting life.

5291. Candide - 3/5/2000 12:54:22 AM

A quote from the last chapter of Buñuel's autobiography My Last Breath. (The opinions expressed are his and not necessarily mine.)

"According to the latest reports, we now [1982] have enough nuclear bombs not only to destroy all life on the planet but also to blow the planet itself, empty and cold, out of its orbit altogether and into the immensity of the cosmic void. I find that possibility magnificent, and in fact I'm tempted to shout bravo, because from now on there can be no doubt that science is our enemy. She flatters our desires for omnipotence — desired that lead inevitably to our destruction. A recent poll announced that out of 700,000 "highly qualified" scientists now working throughout the world, 520,000 of them are busy trying to streamline the means of ous self-destruction, while only 180,000 are studying ways to keep us alive.

The trumpets of the apocalypse have been sounding at our gates for years now, but we still stop up our ears. We do, however have four new horsemen: overpopulation (the leader, the one waving the black flag) science, technology and the media. All the other evils in the world are merely consequences of these. I'm not afraid to put the press in the front rank, either."

5292. Candide - 3/5/2000 12:58:34 AM

I should add that there's a quote from Salman Rushdie on the cover of Buñuel's autobiography: "My Last Breathis pure delight...It's as funny and provocative asthe old chien's best movies; than which there's no higher praise."

5293. CalGal - 3/5/2000 1:08:31 AM

The Trouble With Harry isn't one of my favorite Hitchcock films, but the print they are showing on AMC is pristine. Gorgeous colors. Look for it this month.

5294. Candide - 3/5/2000 1:12:26 AM

CalGal

I saw "The Trouble with Harry" when I was a student and couldn't believe the colours. Then years later I went to up-state New York in fall and realised that if anything it had been an understatement.

I remember too it was my first glimpse of Shirley Maclaine.

5295. CalGal - 3/5/2000 1:19:05 AM

It was nearly everyone's first glimpse of Shirley Maclaine, unless they'd caught her on Broadway when she was understudying for...Verdon, I think?

The foliage is spectacular, of course, but you should see this print. You can see details in amazing clarity; for example, you can see details on the framed pictures in Shirley's home.

As for the movie itself, it is actually a nicely gruesome little comedy, with terrific performances. It improves if you don't think of it as a Hitchcock.

5296. Candide - 3/5/2000 1:23:26 AM

It was many years ago. Alas I won't be able to see your print. You know that Shirley has had an on/off affair with an Australian politician who was supposed to be the leader of the party led by John Howard. She described him somewhere as a "radical" which shows she's not quite in touch. Andrew Peacock is his name and he is (was?) Australian ambassador to the USA. He was always good looking in a vacuous sort of way. They've been an item for decades.

5297. CalGal - 3/5/2000 1:24:44 AM

She described him somewhere as a "radical" which shows she's not quite in touch.

Not necessarily. As all the world tries to tell you, Candide, the US defines things differently.

5298. Candide - 3/5/2000 2:29:14 AM

CalGal

I had to close down because of a thunderstorm.
Yes, calling Andrew Peacock 'radical' is a tad different. He is a happy hedonist though with a good sense of humour. He took Shirley to an official reception in Washington for the visiting Australian prime minister John Howard, and Shirley fell asleep - rather too ostentatiously I thought - during Howard's speech. John Howard had stabbed Peacock in the back some years ago when Peacock led the Liberal party. I think Shirley's sleep was planned.

5299. Cellar Door - 3/5/2000 10:12:35 AM

I saw "The Trouble With Harry" when it was first released as a double-feature with "Artists and Models" -- which also starred Shirley Maclaine.

5300. JudithAtHome - 3/5/2000 10:57:30 AM

CalGal:

I'm going to ask you some dumb questions about the DVD player. Can you hook it up and leave the VCR hooked up, too? Or do you have to choose one over the other? Is there any sort of VCR that can double as a DVD player? I'm sure the answers to these questions are no, yes, and no...I'm electronically challenged.

5301. CalGal - 3/5/2000 11:10:36 AM

Judith,

There are never any dumb questions. There are only dumb people.

I believe the answer to the first question is yes, actually--but you don't really want to. I asked the same question, I think, and it interferes with the quality of the picture--but you can do it. (It is also possible that I'm thinking of a different question, so anyone who knows otherwise chime right in.) In general, though, you want to have one TV for DVD and one for video.

I had to make a number of choices when I bought DVD--for example, my cable converter is the only way I can get my premium channels. This means I only get HBO on one TV. But I need to tape things like The Sopranos--and I can only do that with a VCR. So my cable converter had to go on a different TV than my DVD. Which means I don't get HBO on my killer new TV. Very irritating, and I cannot wait until my cable company does away with these damn converters. I've only ever had to deal with them in this county.

Are these the sort of juggling acts that you're wondering about, or is there something else?

5302. JudithAtHome - 3/5/2000 11:18:22 AM

That's what I'm wondering about...but I don't have to worry about a converter because we get cable on both TVs, no boxes. I hate losing the ability to tape off 2 TVs but I suppose I'll get over it. It's not like I use both recorders all that much, anyhow.

I know there are debates, in my mind at least, about dumb people...I am winning on my own behalf but others aren't faring all that well.

So...we may go look at players today when HH gets back from golf...

5303. CalGal - 3/5/2000 11:23:04 AM

Oh, I see. I've never needed to tape off of two TVs more than once or twice--but then, I have four TVs hooked up to cable.

(Um. Well, actually, I have five TVs at the moment. But one is just operating as a nice piece of furniture. )

The only limit for me is HBO taping. I do find it annoying, though, because I'd really like to have my premium TV channels on my new TV.

5304. CalGal - 3/5/2000 11:24:48 AM

(and the "dumb questions/dumb people" is an old computing joke. Users are always worried about asking stupid questions, so the PC response was, "There are no stupid questions." Inevitably, someone came up with the punchline.)

5305. JudithAtHome - 3/5/2000 11:28:28 AM

Yeah, I've heard that before....I live in Texas, remember? Different questions, same people.

5306. Indiana Jones - 3/5/2000 1:22:13 PM

CalGal (5289): I haven't seen Seven Days in May. Thought The Manchurian Candidate was excellent.

Candide (5290): Must confess that I didn't notice the Brunel connection. Did he write the book on which The Train was based?

5307. CalGal - 3/5/2000 1:27:14 PM

Indy,

Check out Seven Days. It's a fun ride. Burt Lancaster, Kirk Douglas, Frederick March, Martin Balsam. (Ava Gardner's in it too, but bleah.) It's actually based on a more believable conspiracy theory than Manchurian Candidate (not that either one are incredibly likely).

5308. Indiana Jones - 3/5/2000 1:28:22 PM

Thanks for the tip, Cal.

5309. 109109 - 3/5/2000 6:07:12 PM

I saw Boys Don't Cry, a picture about an unfortunate Lincoln, Nebraska woman (Hillary Swank) with gender identity issues. She wants to be a boy, so she crops her hair short and poses as a boy. In those moments, where she has "passed" and tasted affection from the vantage point of a male, the film works. We see the fearful life Swank leads, how her surroundings and her gender conspire against her desire to express what she feels and who she thinks she is. Swank has you share her exhiliration as she ends an evening with a kiss from a unknowing date. Her performance is justly praised.

Swank soon falls in with a motley crew of losers, including an ex-con, a self-mutilator who has burned his own family out of house and home, and a girl who aspires to leave her job canning broccoli so she can get paid as a karaoke singer (Chloe Sevigny). Swank falls in love with Sevigny, and a white trash Romeo and Juliet ensues.

Director Kimberly Peirce has a firm grip on the picture when she is depicting Swank's acceptance into this group. It plays as a more rough-hewn "American Graffiti" where the gang eschews the strip for the highways of Nebraska, and malts become beers and bong hits. Peirce shows a group moving fast (she uses the effect of fast speed highway lights, super slow-motion shots of the gang getting high in the back of a car, and a police chase off-road in the dust) and going nowhere.

Unfortunately, in real life, the Swank character was murdered, and the second half of the film grounds to the halt of numbing, repeated brutalization of Swank. Director Peirce pours it on at the end, with 4 scenes of debasement and cruelty. Swank is so dehumanized that any emotional power is drained from the film. I suppose the end is defensible on grounds of reality, but it saps the early beauty of the film and worse, it blots out Swank's singular character until she is just another unrecognizable victim of senseless American violence.

5310. joezan - 3/5/2000 8:24:50 PM

Judith:

You may have both your VCR and DVD hooked up at the same time, provided there are inputs for two machines. I can see no reason at all why the picture should suffer, unless your TV or amp happen to be older sets. In which case the signal will suffer regardless.

5311. CalGal - 3/5/2000 8:29:46 PM

Joe, do you have a DVD?

5312. joezan - 3/5/2000 8:35:49 PM

Cal:

No, but my dad's on his third and I always get the call to hook him up. And, actually, he's offered us his last one, so it's there for the taking. I'll probably check it out soon.

5313. CalGal - 3/5/2000 8:39:21 PM

I am looking at you sternly. Remove the "probably" from that statement. You'll never regret it.

("one of us, one of us")

5314. CalGal - 3/5/2000 8:41:17 PM

And that's good to know--I may hook up my VCR and cable converter to my new tv and get HBO and the ability to record. Thanks for the info.

5315. joezan - 3/5/2000 8:47:22 PM

Yea - I know. I think the biggest reason we've resisted is that my dad gets such a kick out of having the kids over to watch DVD movies.

He's a tech nut, and has to have the latest stuff. You'd get a kick out of him -you have nearly identical cinematic tastes. He's got over 1,500 movies on tape, and copying filters and such up the wazoo. If he ever goes back on line I'll have him post here.

(Another thing I've resisted, since I'd have to clean up my act).

5316. joezan - 3/5/2000 8:50:15 PM

...5315 is to 5313.

5317. CalGal - 3/5/2000 8:52:51 PM

Well, tell him about Netflix--he might like it as a way of checking out DVDs prior to buying them.

And the kids can still go to Grandpa's house to watch movies. Just decide you'll never, ever get any movies they want to watch!

BTW, I am watching Carpenter's The Thing right now.

5318. theDiva - 3/5/2000 8:54:12 PM

Last night I watched the first hour of Point Break.

What garbage, but damn, Keanu Reeves is cute.

5319. CalGal - 3/5/2000 8:54:19 PM

And he sounds way more "bleeding edge" than me. I'm not an early adopter; I'm the sort who is a "leading indicator" instead. If I bought a DVD player, that's all she wrote for videos and laserdisc, folks.

5320. EricCartman - 3/5/2000 9:42:11 PM

Indy:

I second Cal's take on Seven Days In May. Great movie. I may have to dig out my tape of it sometime soon.

Sopranos Fans:

Remember that tonight's episode starts an hour earlier than usual, at 8:00 PST. It's a good one, if a tad short. Three good ones in a row, though; they're finally on a roll.

5321. Dantheman - 3/6/2000 9:01:03 AM

Wonder Boys

Fran Lebowitz was once asked for advice by a young writer. She replied that the story of your life would not make a good book. Don't even try. She could have added that if the story of your life runs over 2600 pages, something is very wrong with your storytelling.

This lesson has been breached far too many times over the years, with results typically as uninteresting as this film. Despite a good cast (Michael Douglas, Frances McDormand, Robert Downey, Jr and Tobey Maguire), this movie runs in far too many directions to be accessable, or even coherent. Plots and characters drop out of the film for a solid 30 minutes at a stretch, and we are presented with far too many unlikely resolutions in the last 15 minutes. The acting is solid, but does not save this film. 1 1/2 planets out of 4.

5322. JudithAtHome - 3/6/2000 10:04:48 AM

I've never read any Nero Wolfe books but I watched A&Es Golden Spiders last night despite initially thinking it was so bad, it was fascinating. I still think that, actually. It was very stylized and seemed to be going for the 40s noir look. I liked the sets and the cars...

5323. Cellar Door - 3/6/2000 10:49:27 AM

Well I worked the line doing interviews at the Writers Guild Awards at the Beverly Hilton last night with the camera crew from Producers Library Service. Very crowded, but much fun -- except for the fact that Matt Damon sprinted right past me with a smile and a wave as he headed for the banquet room door. The nerve! One camera crew towards the end managed to snag him, but that was it. Damn!

Did get to talk with Haley Joe Osment, however, who is just amazing. I have NEVER seen a more together child actor. Smart, prepared, polite, and not at all plastic. He really seemed to be having a good time. And when you don't wince when Sheryl Lee Ralph scoops you up for a photo op, you're a genuine pro in my book.

Jean-Claude Carriere says that Oshima is on the mend.

Alexander Payne, is becoming a real character. Somebody should cast him in a movie because he's good-looking as well as smart.

Pat Kingsley appears to have forgotten who I am, because she spoke to me -- something she was quite ill-disposed to do at the Los Angeles Film Critics Asociation Awards.

I encourgaed Bruce Vilanch to stage a gay wedding at this year's Oscars, and the idea greatly appealed to him. He says that Billy Crystal is still upset that Whoopi got to wear the Queen Elizabeth dress last year. "He thought HE should have done that."

5324. 109109 - 3/6/2000 1:37:44 PM

After Boys Don't Cry

My Nominations, thus far

Best Picture
Being John Malkovich
The Limey
The Sixth Sense
Election
The Talented Mr. Ripley

Best Actor
Tobey Maguire, The Cider House Rules
Terence Stamp, The Limey
Kevin Spacey, American Beauty
Matthew Broderick, Election
John Malkovich, Being John Malkovich

Best Supporting Actor
Jude Law, The Talented Mr. Ripley
William H. Macy, Happy, Texas
Delroy Lindo, The Cider House Rules
Hayley Joel Osment, The Sixth Sense
Jeremy Northam, The Winslow Boy

Best Actress
Heather Donahue, The Blair Witch Project
Hillary Swank, Boys Don't Cry
Ally Walker, Happy, Texas
Renee Russo, The Thomas Crown Affair
Rebecca Pidgeon, The Winslow Boy

Best Supporting Actress
Catherine Keener, Being John Malkovich
Reese Witherspoon, Election
Julianne Moore, An Ideal Husband
Glenn Close, Cookie's Fortune
Cameron Diaz, Being John Malkovich

5325. PsychProf - 3/6/2000 1:53:13 PM

Cellar...very interesting to hear you recount your adventures. Give us more...

5326. Cellar Door - 3/6/2000 2:16:07 PM

You'll get 'em, Psych.

The Big Event of the Movie Season, IMO, isn't the Oscars. It's the Independent Feature Project Awards. They're the same week and a lot more fun. You get unrestricted access to the stars and the filmmakers. And they're much more interesting stars and filmmakers to begin with. It's down on the beach in Santa Monica, and people tend to get sloshed, flirt rather than network, and throw caution to the winds in their speeches. Last year, for instance, Ally Sheedy simly did not want to get off-stage. I think she may be planning to star in "Faye Dunaway Tonight."

5327. CalGal - 3/6/2000 4:05:20 PM

David Ansen gives "Erin Brockovich" a good review in Newsweek.

I didn't know this, but it's a true story about PG&E's attempt to coverup industrial pollution that caused a number of illnesses in California. Erin Brockovich was an annoying, brassy, trash-talking legal investigator who was just sure something was wrong (Newsweek's take on the events)

I'm pulling for it, since I like Soderbergh and Roberts. Let me know if you hear anything different.

5328. Dantheman - 3/6/2000 4:11:29 PM

I saw the trailer for Erin Brockovich over the weekend. The Squirrel is nearly certain to drag me to it, but it looks nearly laughable to me as courtroom drama.

5329. CalGal - 3/6/2000 4:14:19 PM

The uncanny parallels to "A Civil Action" have been noted--however, it is accurate and apparently very funny. Mainly a two-person show, from what I understand (Roberts and Finney), with Eckhart being the stay at home boyfriend.

5330. JudithAtHome - 3/6/2000 4:30:54 PM

Oh, from the ads I thought maybe the "2" you were referring to were Julias boobs in her Wonder bra.

5331. janjon - 3/6/2000 4:41:35 PM

Silkwood, redux. Sort of.

5332. CalGal - 3/6/2000 4:42:14 PM

Judith,

No, that's double-barrelled in a double breasted.

Jan,

No, not Silkwood redux. It's a comedy.

5333. janjon - 3/6/2000 4:43:11 PM

A comedy, eh. Ye Gods.

5334. JudithAtHome - 3/6/2000 4:44:09 PM

CalGal:

They look like half-tanned cantalopes regardless.

5335. Cellar Door - 3/6/2000 8:39:16 PM

Well I'll be squeezing the melons at the All-Media screening later this week.

5336. TabouliJones - 3/6/2000 9:17:56 PM

The Wonder Boys is not nearly as bad as Dantheman suggests; although those hoping that director Curtis Hanson would repeat his stellar accomplishment in L.A. Confidential will surely be disappointed. For the most part, the movie does a good job of portraying the dysfunctional entropy that often takes hold in academic settings. Rather than being convoluted, as Dantheman and other critics suggest, the movie amounts to an understated farce that generates some decent --but subdued --laughs, without leaning too heavily on charicatures or unduly goofy prat falls. Most of the ensemble cast is very good, especially Toby Maguire as the laconically morbid writing student and Robert Downey Jr. as the sybaritic editor. The characters are generally believable and, for the most part, each develops in an emotionally satisfying and dramatically sensible manner; although I agree with Dantheman that the final act errs on the pat side. Finally, the film is well shot; making good use of an alternately snow and rain enveloped campus at the University of Pittsburg. I don't share Roger Ebert's effusive enthusiasm for this movie, or his sentimental attachment to the academic milieu that is its subject matter, but I do recommend it to anyone trying to separate the wheat from the chaffe in the current crop of new releases. Final Grade: 3 and 1/2 out of 5.

5337. CalGal - 3/6/2000 9:36:08 PM

Really, I think it's criminal that Robert Downey has to be considered a criminal. The guy is too good. While I appreciate his great work in smaller supporting roles (Bowfinger, and he's supposed to be great in Wonder Boys), he's not been able to star in any movies for a while--all because he's unfortunate enough to have an addiction to an illegal substance.

If he'd just been an alcoholic, or been lucky enough not to have been caught, we'd be the richer by a few movies.

5338. TabouliJones - 3/6/2000 9:50:34 PM

In The Wonder Boys, Downey Jr. brings such an infectious glee to his bon vivant character that one might feel a tinge of guilt when enjoying his performance, given his much publicized addiction. (Note: this observation doesn't originate with me. I think David Edelstein notes this in his Slate review.) Downey gives a similarly enthralling performance in Short Cuts, albeit with a touch of the sinister added to comport with that movie's mind set. He is also excellent as Chaplin in Sir Whats-his-name's biopic of the same name.

I agree, it would be nice if he could stay out of prison long enough to expose his talent to a greater raange of roles.

5339. TabouliJones - 3/6/2000 9:52:13 PM

Make that: Sir-Whats-his-name's otherwise dull disappointing movie of the same.

5340. CalGal - 3/6/2000 10:03:05 PM

Well, the thing that Downey proves so inescapably is that you can be imprisoned only for being an addict. He's rich, he's not committing any accompanying crime with his use--he's just using. I think the worse thing he's done is wander into someone's house, or something?

And god knows that other movie actors have gotten away with far worse. Downey was just unlucky enough to get scooped up into the system and then given a limit (don't do it again) that he could never meet.

Attenborough--it was a dreary film, except for Downey, wasn't it? Kline was fun, too.

It's not just his time in prison, at this point. I imagine he can't get insured to take a lead role anymore. But that's just a guess.

5341. EricCartman - 3/7/2000 12:51:23 AM

Cal:

Downey's being imprisoned for his own good, you know. Now that he's safely behind bars, he won't be able to get any of those nasty drugs.

Plus we have to send a message to the kids, or they might start to think that it's all bullshit.

5342. Raskolnikov - 3/7/2000 11:04:07 AM

"I'm going to ask you some dumb questions about the DVD player. Can you hook it up and leave the VCR hooked up, too? Or do you have to choose one over the other?"

There are several ways you can do this, depending on your equipment. Basically, it depends on whether your TV has AV inputs and outputs, and whether you want to send the sound through a stereo or home theater system. My recommendation would be to look at all the equipment (TV, VCR, DVD, cable, and sound system, if any) you have, note exactly what types of inputs and outputs exist on each piece of equipment, note the types and lengths of all cables in your possession, head to the nearest Radio Shack or Audio King with this information, and tell them what you want to do. The primary variable is your TV. TVs range from having only cable inputs, to having cable, AV, SVHS, Optical, and component video inputs *and* outputs, with a variety of options in between.

But here are some possibilities...

1) Here is what I do - I want my satellite, my VCR, and DVD to all send the audio to my stereo system, which only has a limited number of inputs, so I hook my DVD player up to the AV inputs on the VCR, the satellite up to the RF (coax cable) input of the VCR, send the audio signal to the stereo, and hook the whole kit and kaboodle up to the TV via the RF input. That way, I can get good stereo sound from any item but just listening to the signal from the VCR, while watching the TV. The only downsides are that there is some slight signal loss from the extra connections (but I would doubt most people could notice it), and you need to moneky around with the VCR in order to watch your DVDs.

5343. Raskolnikov - 3/7/2000 11:04:16 AM

2) if your TV has AV inputs, you could wire the VCR through the RF (the coaxial cable) input, and send the DVD into the AV jacks.

3) you can pick up an AV switch box, and a spare set of AV cables, at Radio Shack for around $25, but your TV needs to have AV inputs.

For reference. AV inputs and outputs come in color coded sets - Red for right audio, white for left audio, and yellow for video.

Also, if you have a home theater system you might have a few other options at your disposal, such as an optical connection or composite video.

I used to do this shit for a living. It may sound complicated, but it becomes a hell of a lot simpler once you know what is possible for your system.

5344. Raskolnikov - 3/7/2000 11:18:06 AM

A few random comments on previous thread topics over the past few days...

Belle Epoque is Spanish, not French

Few Americans, Cal Gal excepted, would fail to call a Kurosawa film "foreign". Americans tend to use "foreign" as a short hand for "foreign language", so it is true that few viewers would refer to a lot Kung Fu films as "foreign", since they are often dubbed in English.

I would argue that the consensus critical take on Woody Allen is that he has fallen quite far since his 70s peak (Annie Hall, Manhattan, Bananas), although he does create the odd stand-out film every now and then (Hannah and her Sisters, Crimes and Misdemeanors, mostly, although I am a fan of Manhattan Murder Mystery).

Deconstructing Harry was awful. Like all of Woody's films, it had its moments, but I found the mere premise offensive. Allen pretty much satirized the "artist creates his own moral universe" idea in Bullets over Broadway, but here he seems to actually be taking the idea seriously.

City Lights is wonderful. I am not a huge Chaplin fan - I think Gold Rush and Modern Times are very overpraised, but I love City Lights, and got a big kick out of the Chaplin shorts that TCM showed a few months ago.

The best thing about Netflix is that they have all of Kino's Buster Keaton DVDs. Netflix's listing isn't as revealing as it should be all the time, not always prominently saying which shorts on the DVDs (and in the case of the Our Hospitality/ Sherlock Jr DVD, I don't think they even tell you that Sherlock Jr is on the disk - and Sherlock Jr is arguably the better of the two Keaton masterpieces). The other strongly recommended DVD is The General. Not only is it a great movie, but the DVD also contains Keaton's short "Cops", which is the funniest 20 minutes of film I have ever seen.

5345. CalGal - 3/7/2000 11:43:11 AM

I would argue that the consensus critical take on Woody Allen is that he has fallen quite far since his 70s peak (Annie Hall, Manhattan, Bananas), although he does create the odd stand-out film every now and then (Hannah and her Sisters, Crimes and Misdemeanors, mostly, although I am a fan of Manhattan Murder Mystery).

Everyone Says I Love You got a lot of good reviews, as I recall, and Husbands and Wives was considered "interesting".

That being said, I wouldn't disagree. I don't see how that contradicts my point to Candide, who was asserting that Woody Allen was not appreciated in the US. I didn't get any indication that she was only discussing the last ten years; my response to her was also not limited to that time frame. In a discussion of important American filmmakers, Allen would certainly get more than a mention.

Very few directors maintain a high level of quality throughout their career. Allen has done better than many.

5346. CalGal - 3/7/2000 11:45:16 AM

Speaking of Bullets Over Broadway, I see that you didn't include it on the list of his recent well-received work. I am nearly sure it was generally considered an excellent comedy, but I'd have to check back.

5347. Dantheman - 3/7/2000 11:57:24 AM

TJones,
Sorry, I can't agree on Wonder Boys. I only had one good laugh from (spoiler: the book blowing into the Mon,) definitely a type of pratfall. I also saw plenty of caricatures, especially Rip Torn and Katie Holmes (admittedly, minor characters).

5348. Raskolnikov - 3/7/2000 12:15:08 PM

Cal: I wasn't disagreeing with you on Allen's general regard.

Bullets over Broadway got decent notices, and was well received at the Oscars, but I don't recall any critics favorably comparing it to Allen's best films. Which was kind of my point - Allen's successes now are measured more by the number of base hits he gets, rather than by the number of home runs.

5349. janjon - 3/7/2000 1:02:16 PM

Raskolnikov. About all your inputs and outputs, and connecting this to that and that to this.

I just hire my daughter to figure it out and to buy the stuff necessary.

So far, so good. No explosions and everything works.

5350. janjon - 3/7/2000 1:03:29 PM

Am I wrong in assuming that Wonder Boys was completed some time ago before Downey went in the last time around? Or, is he given some sort of work furlough from time to time.

5351. Raskolnikov - 3/7/2000 1:08:24 PM

"I just hire my daughter to figure it out and to buy the stuff necessary."

My parents still use the same approach with me. Every time I go home, I find myself hooking up a VCR or a computer. No wages though. Just a hot meal and the absence of being sent on a guilt truip.

5352. CalGal - 3/7/2000 1:14:14 PM

Rask,

Oh, okay. Yes, I agree.

BTW, I would quibble with you a bit about "foreign films"--although I was in the main goofing off. I still think that people would be more likely to specify "Japanese" film and leave "foreign film" to signify the dreary European arthouse stereotype.

5353. Raskolnikov - 3/7/2000 1:15:17 PM

nah, those films are called "artsy-fartsy", not "foreign".

5354. Dantheman - 3/7/2000 1:16:52 PM

CalGal,
"dreary European arthouse stereotype"

Does this mean posting a review of that type of movie isn't welcome? I need to know, as the Squirrel and I are using my parents Talk Cinema tickets on Sunday, which means we have a good chance of seeing something like that.

5355. Raskolnikov - 3/7/2000 1:21:13 PM

If we banned reviews of dreary European films, we would end up censoring a good share of Cellar's posts.

Seriously, post away. This thread has certainly had highbrow European film discussions in the past.

5356. Dantheman - 3/7/2000 1:23:19 PM

Rask,
I know. I've even discussed some of them myself (especially The Celebration which I saw last year when I borrowed my parents' tickets).
Just pulling legs.

5357. CalGal - 3/7/2000 1:28:48 PM

Dan,

I said nothing of banning them! Post away. Besides, not all "foreign films" are dreary. And I have grimly decided to focus on these films, anyway, in my Netflix rentals. I consider it the equivalent of eating (shudder) Brussels sprouts.

This is all in reference to a previous conversation, starting at Message # 5222.

You also must consider the possibility that I am parodying my own woefully 'murrican sensibilities.

5358. Jenerator - 3/7/2000 1:31:47 PM

I saw Les Girls today. I hadn't seen it in awhile. I love Gene Kelly and the old musicals.

5359. CalGal - 3/7/2000 1:34:24 PM

Lucky you! I can almost never find that playing. It's a fun musical.

5360. Jenerator - 3/7/2000 2:00:17 PM

Cal,

I have to admit that the BBC is a weird thing. Never before have I seen such a wonderful and awful variety of movies, documentaries, soap operas, news shows, and game shows thrown into cable. Only here could you watch the 'new' epsidode of Friends, then a show on how man came from apes, into a home renovation special, into a terrible western, into a special on Hinduism all on one channel. Every day they feature an oldie, so I've been able to catch up here and there and some of the good ones.

5361. Cellar Door - 3/7/2000 9:50:17 PM

Great review of "Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train"!

5362. Cellar Door - 3/7/2000 9:54:20 PM

Downey's being imprisoned for his own good, you know. Now that he's safely behind bars, he won't be able to get any of those nasty drugs.

Plus we have to send a message to the kids, or they might start to think that it's all bullshit.

And what a message it is too: drug addiction and imprisonment don't trump talent.

5363. EricCartman - 3/7/2000 10:35:24 PM

Cellar:

Frequently drugs facilitate talent. I subscribe to the theory once posited by the late great Bill Hicks:

"If you think drugs are bad, then here's what you need to do -- go home, and get all your records, all your tapes, all your CDs, and burn 'em. 'Cause you know all those musicians who made all those great songs that enhanced your lives through the years? Rrrrrrreal fuckin' high on drugs."

They're not for everyone, but some people do indeed get creative energy from certain things. Too bad we don't take our national credo of "live and let live" very seriously.

5364. JudithAtHome - 3/8/2000 10:55:15 AM

I wrote my best poetry while drugged...but that's another story.

So, did anyone watch NYPB Blue last night and do you think Dannys problems are solved by just a talk with Andy and a burger with Diane?

5365. CalGal - 3/8/2000 12:05:56 PM

I fell asleep, dammit. But I woke up in time to see the Sopranos ep, finally. And watching the Sopranos is more and more becoming an exercise in enduring a really shitty group of people at a neverending dinner party. I want Tony back, dammit.

5366. Jenerator - 3/8/2000 12:08:06 PM

I cannot read let alone create 'art' with a clowded mind. I don't see how people can function on drugs [marihuana, LSD, coke, etc.]

5367. Cellar Door - 3/8/2000 12:18:08 PM

You just haven't been taking the right drugs, Jen.

5368. JudithAtHome - 3/8/2000 1:24:15 PM

Cellars right, Jen...I never said I was on illicit drugs; I was a prescription junkie.

5369. janjon - 3/8/2000 2:30:10 PM

I may have gotten the answer somewhere up above, but was Wonder Boy filmed some time ago and just left on the shelf for a while for whatever reasons? In other words, was it filmed before Downey went into prison this most recent longish-stretch time, or was he "furloughed" or something like that in order to be able to make the film? If the latter was the case, why? To make some bread for his family? (Does he have a family?) If so, lots of cons would like that opportunity, I bet. But I've jumped way ahead of getting the facts.

5370. Jenerator - 3/8/2000 2:51:01 PM

I think I listed the "right" artistic drugs, except for heroin. I'll be sure and try some with a sketchbook nearby and a crayon. I wouldn't want to hurt myself.

5371. Cellar Door - 3/8/2000 2:54:07 PM

Downey went into the slammer moments after finishing up "Wonder Boys." He was on probation during it's production. He's gotten some of the best reviews of his career while locked up to "protect" us all from his self-destruction.

5372. CalGal - 3/8/2000 2:54:32 PM

Jan,

I think Downey was out of jail for a year and a half. He just went back in late last year, didn't he?

5373. CalGal - 3/8/2000 2:58:07 PM

Jan,

Here you go...

It was no laughing matter to cast the troubled and currently incarcerated Downey who gives an indelibly affecting performance, his last before losing his freedom.

"I was aware of the problems," Hanson said. "Robert came to Pittsburgh; he flew up to pursue the job. We had a lengthy and very frank conversation. I take what I do seriously and this was going to be a difficult shoot, done in continuity [meaning the highly unusual manner of filming each scene in the order we see it in the film], in Pittsburgh, in the winter. Robert impressed me with his commitment to the work and the next morning I said, 'Let's hire him.'"

Hanson brightens as he talks about Downey. "We were there four-and-a-half months and there's a joyfulness watching him work. As we finished, Robert came to Los Angeles and slipped — and voluntarily admitted [to the judge] he had slipped. And without any new charge, they put him in prison. It's unprecedented what happened to him."

5374. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:06:09 PM

Hm. This may be the wrong thread for this, but many alcoholics claim they "need" booze to function. They "need" booze to get through meetings or the article they're writing or what not.

We look at such people askance. We say, "No, that's a psychological crutch. You don't need booze; you're just rationalizing your taste for it."

But then Cartman comes along and tells us that OTHER drugs -- presumably magical -- do in fact fuel the creative process. He takes the words of smack-addicts uncritically. He doesn't for one moment seem to grasp that writing while high on smack is quite similar to writing while drunk on alcohol; and that the same skepticism he might have that booze improves performance should also apply to heroin or LSD or whatever.

The Beatles all did LSD and pot. The Beatles were all also incredibly talented (well, except for Ringo). I buy their statements that pot and acid fueld their writing to the same extent I buy Raymond Chandler's assertion that he "needed" to be falling-down drunk to finish scripts in Hollywood. No doubt an inebriant loosens you up-- that's the whole point of them, after all -- but it doesn't "fuel" anyting.

Guns N Roses were all hard-core alcoholics and smack addicts. But then, you know, so were Poison. So let's not jerk ourselves off here.

5375. Jenerator - 3/8/2000 3:07:34 PM

AceofSpades I love you.

5376. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:13:06 PM

I think that creative/artistic predisposition is found disproportionately in those who are genetically disposed to things like addiction and depression.

So it's not so much that I buy that Raymond Chandler "needed" booze to write better, as it is that I think the Raymond Chandlers of the world are more likely to need booze, period.

5377. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:14:34 PM

Raymond Chandler, by the way, spent five or six weeks falling-down drunk to complete a script (I forget which; it wasn't a Marlowe script; I'm sure Cellar will know).

He had a hired car pick him up in the morning, then bring him to a hotel room stocked with liquour. He boozed up and by 11 am he was ready to write. He was literally falling-down drunk all day.

The car would pick him up at seven or eight and ferry his drunken ass home.

Now, Chandler was a perfectionist, famous for his incredibly slow writing, his agonizing over every single goddamn word. To write on deadline, I guess yes, in a way, it was *effective* to fuck his head up, to drown that unforgiving self-editor/critic with Whiskey.

But did he *need* it? I don't know. I'll tell you I "need" cigarettes when I'm writing. I "need" them. Cannot write without them.

But I'm lying, you know. I just don't want to give the fuckers up.

5378. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:15:17 PM

Just to be clear--none of the Beatles are addicts, so they are left out of my equation entirely. They are just an example of creative talents who weren't genetically predisposed to addiction. Although I think Lennon probably suffered from bouts of depression, the other ill that artists seem unnaturally prone to.

5379. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:17:30 PM

Jen:

By the way, I thought of Chandler because of your spelling of "marihuana," which I take is a British variant. Chandler's the only guy I've seen spell it like that (& he was schooled in Britain & an Anglophile in general).

5380. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:18:41 PM

But did he *need* it?

Did he need it to be great? No. Did he need it in the sense that all addicts "need" their drug? Sure. He was an addict. Those are two different issues, though.

5381. Jenerator - 3/8/2000 3:22:08 PM

Ace,

I was taught the mariJuana spelling was circulated in order to villify the Mexicans who were blamed for the introduction of it into America, so that the 'real' spelling is with an H. I have no real preference to be honest.

Btw, I love you.

5382. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:22:29 PM

Cal Gal:

But that's sort of the whole point. Cartman's position seems to be that drugs can in fact drive the creative process.

I am extremely skeptical. I think that addicts need drugs -- they're addicted, after all -- and therefore, yes, they "need" drugs for songwriting the same as they "need" drugs to calm the shakes in the morning.

In other words: They don't really "need" them. They've simply become addicted, like I have to nicotine, and feel out-of-sorts and cloudy-minded when they don't have their drug of choice.

But kick the habit and the need goes away.

On the other hand...

Robin Williams was never funny after quitting coke. Then again, looking back with 20/20 hindsight, he was never funny when he was on coke, either.

5383. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:23:38 PM

Jen:

Yes, I caught that. But our dangerous love is forbidden.

5384. Jenerator - 3/8/2000 3:24:48 PM

I know that, I just wanted you to remind you.

5385. JudithAtHome - 3/8/2000 3:28:06 PM

Writers like Thomas Wolfe and William Faulkner might disagree with your theory about need.

5386. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:29:35 PM

Judith:

About the "need" to be drunk? You're saying they'd say they did in fact "need" liquor?

Perhaps they would say that. But I would be skeptical. Alcoholics claim they "need" booze to function. It's textbook, you know?

5387. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:30:38 PM

Ace,

Cartman's position seems to be that drugs can in fact drive the creative process.

Okay, let's split that up, see if we can define any points of agreement. I agree that for the non-addict, this is not true. Flat out, no qualifications.

Now, for the addict, I agree that the drug itself does nothing to improve the quality of the output and that use of the drug will eventually degrade their overall work because of mental and physical impairments.

But if an addict stops using, will it affect the quality of their work? I think this is arguably true. If you consider the possibility that addicts have a different brain chemistry (undersupply of dopamine, I think?), then stopping drugs completely is likely to affect their brain chemistry--make them duller and slower, less creative.

5388. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:31:35 PM

In my post above, I said "addict", but it should be considered as "addicted artist". In other words, I'm assuming creative ability and addiction.

5389. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:32:35 PM

...and I'd have trouble understanding why one job -- writing -- does in fact "require" booze, whereas all other jobs on the planet -- plumber, lawyer, bank manager -- don't "require" booze.

An alcoholic bank manager tells me he needs booze to function at his job. I tell him, "No you don't." But a writer says the same thing and I say, "Oh, well, you're a *writer*. Ergo I accept your statements uncritically."

I don't know. I don't buy the whole "Mysterious Epiphany" theory of creativity.

5390. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:35:46 PM

All addicts who stop using are going to take the same hit in brain chemistry. It may be that the artist's hit is more noticeable because of the type of work done.

5391. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:37:26 PM

Cal:

I think we're saying the same thing, by and large, except for the addict thing.

I don't know about that. You may be right, but in a trivial way. Dopamine regulates mood, right, not clarity of thought?

So, many artists are miserable. So what? They're supposed to be miserable.

5392. JudithAtHome - 3/8/2000 3:39:59 PM

A plumber doesn't need inspiration to fix your toilet...unless you count his fees as such.

5393. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:41:49 PM

Ace,

It doesn't really matter what it regulates, does it? If you regularly manage the dopamine hits in one particular fashion for years and then you completely take this away and decide to live with the lack--you've just told your brain to fucking live with it. That's a big switch.

It's also why only 30% of addicts of any sort (including smokers, I think?) manage to kick it. Until they figure out the brain chemistry aspect and create a drug that will regulate it without altering mood, I think those numbers are going to stay consistent.

5394. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:45:28 PM

Smokers and dopamine

In the new research, published in the journal Nature, scientists ran brain scans on smokers and abstainers and found that smokers had 40% less of a brain enzyme known as monoamine oxidase B, or MAO B. The enzyme breaks down dopamine, a chemical messenger in the brain associated with feelings of pleasure. Because of its exquisitely satisfying effects, says Joanna Fowler, a chemist at Brookhaven National Laboratory and one of the study's authors, "dopamine is crucially important in reinforcing and motivating behavior."

Thus smoking appears to create a self-perpetuating cycle: less MAO B leads to more dopamine, leads to more pleasure, leads to more smoking, leads to less MAO B and so on.

Scientists have not yet identified what factor in smoke lowers levels of MAO B, but Fowler speculates that it may be working synergistically with nicotine to boost dopamine levels. Earlier research showed that nicotine also increases dopamine levels by gripping like Velcro to receptors clustered in the forebrain.

There may be an even more dangerous synergy at work, according to Alan Leshner, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse. "Every substance that is addicting leads to an increase in dopamine levels in the brain," he says. That may help explain why people who abuse one substance so often abuse another. Fowler likens the effect to creating a biochemical pathway or channel: "A drug may leave an imprint in the brain, so that the next drug becomes more pleasurable than it would otherwise." In short, the brain gets into a rut that just grows deeper and deeper.

This is from 1996; we've known about dopamine and addiction since then. I believe that is where a lot of the new research is headed.

5395. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:45:40 PM

"It may be that the artist's hit is more noticeable because of the type of work done."

Eh, I don't buy this. ANY top-tier job requires large doses of creativity & flair. If you're a top lawyer or brain surgeon or physicist or mathematician, you're creative. Not in the same way as a musician, of course, but similar parts of the brain are active.

Now, if a mathemetician told me he needed heroin to dream up a proof about eight-dimensional topography, I'd slap him in the face. But a guitarist says something similar, and I'm just supposed to nod?

No. More likely it's simply a *convention* of the occupation. Hey -- musicians are supposed to get drunk and chain-smoke on stage (sticking the cigarette in the neck of their guitar, of course) and occasionally get addicted to smack. It's accepted. It's expected. And in many ways, would-be professional musicians emulate true professionals by assuming the trappings of what they perceive as professional-hood-- they chain-smoke, get drunk, and shoot smack because Eric Clapton used to.

Hey-- most cops smoke cigarettes. A HUGE number of cops smoke, very disproportionate to the general population.

Why? Because policework requires cigarettes?

No. Most likely, because a lot of cops smoke. A lot of cops are DEPICTED as smokers. So the new guys start smoking. Or wanna-be cops in high school start smoking, because they see cops doing it.

5396. PsychProf - 3/8/2000 3:47:10 PM

TV MOVIE BY FALL

5397. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:51:42 PM

"If you regularly manage the dopamine hits in one particular fashion for years and then you completely take this away and decide to live with the lack--you've just told your brain to fucking live with it. That's a big switch."

Yes, of course. And your brain will be fucked for months. I do not dispute this.

But AFTER you kick -- you'll be okay.

And more importantly -- had you never cultivated the addiction in the first place, you'd have been okay from the start. You'd have banged out songs of similar quality.

*Of course* your brain *needs* smack once you're addicted. By definition. But your creativity never really needed it. You've trained your body to need it, and so yes, you will from now on need it to function.

But this is an entirely different formulation from Cartman's thesis -- that a tab of acid was "required" to write "She Said, She Said."

5398. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:55:27 PM

So, many artists are miserable. So what? They're supposed to be miserable.

Actually, they are "supposed" to be miserable because of the stereotype. What I'm pointing out is that the stereotype seems to be based in reality. Creative people are disproportionately represented in the addict and depression pool. One can say that they are addicted and depressed because they are artists--or one can wonder if the brain chemistry that creates addiction might also provide a great deal of creativity.

Now, if a mathemetician told me he needed heroin to dream up a proof about eight-dimensional topography, I'd slap him in the face.

What they "say" isn't relevant. I'm not asking you to believe them, so who cares what they say? Nor am I saying that artists are to be given a pass that other occupations aren't. So all of this is utterly besides the point.

What I am saying is that an artist may be more aware of the fact that their output is worse if they aren't using. As such, they are more likely to link their use to the quality of their work.

And, as I've said, all addicts "need" their drug. Their brains aren't the same as ours, and when they give up their drug they are deciding to live with a brain chemistry that most people would find unbearable. That's why 60% of addicts don't ever quit.

So don't scoff at the "need". It is entirely reasonable of them to want the same thing as a "normal" person. And the need never goes away.

Please remember, too, that many people use drugs and are not addicted.

5399. 109109 - 3/8/2000 3:57:40 PM

I thought dentists were disproportionately represented in the depression pool.

5400. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:57:47 PM

Yes, of course. And your brain will be fucked for months. I do not dispute this.

But AFTER you kick -- you'll be okay.

No. You won't. You will always be different. Your brain wasn't "normal" to start with.

And more importantly -- had you never cultivated the addiction in the first place, you'd have been okay from the start. You'd have banged out songs of similar quality.

No. That is backwards. You cultivated the addiction because it filled a hole that other people, non-addicts, don't have.

5401. CalGal - 3/8/2000 3:58:53 PM

Niner,

Oh, artists aren't the only occupation that are disproportionately represented. But I think artists are going to notice their quality dropoff more than others.

5402. 109109 - 3/8/2000 3:59:02 PM

Cal

Addicts have holes that non-addicts don't have?

This sounds like the fat gene.

5403. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 3:59:29 PM

"What I am saying is that an artist may be more aware of the fact that their output is worse if they aren't using. As such, they are more likely to link their use to the quality of their work."

Well, I simply don't buy the thesis that a top mathematician is LESS aware of a diminishing quaility of work than a top guitarist. They might both "link" the diminishing quality to a lack of heroin. They're both wrong.

One difference between them: A guitarist can GET AWAY with being a junkie. A writer can GET AWAY with being a falling-down drunk.

It's acceptable for them. Their publishers or A&R people will give a cautionary word, but they won't fire their asses.

Let's see a mathematician try getting away with that. Won't happen. Not for long.

5404. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:02:05 PM

"One difference between them: A guitarist can GET AWAY with being a junkie. A writer can GET AWAY with being a falling-down drunk."

Bingo!

This in a world where the drummer for Rush got a degree in drumming, duuuude! A degree!

5405. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:04:07 PM

Longer article on Dopamine

Why do some people fall so easily into the thrall of alcohol, cocaine, nicotine and other addictive substances, while others can, literally, take them or leave them?

The answer, many scientists are convinced, may be simpler than anyone has dared imagine. What ties all these mood-altering drugs together, they say, is a remarkable ability to elevate levels of a common substance in the brain called dopamine. In fact, so overwhelming has evidence of the link between dopamine and drugs of abuse become that the distinction (pushed primarily by the tobacco industry and its supporters) between substances that are addictive and those that are merely habit-forming has very nearly been swept away.
...
Nevertheless, the realization that dopamine may be a common end point of all those pathways represents a signal advance. Provocative, controversial, unquestionably incomplete, the dopamine hypothesis provides a basic framework for understanding how a genetically encoded trait--such as a tendency to produce too little dopamine--might intersect with environmental influences to create a serious behavioral disorder. Therapists have long known of patients who, in addition to having psychological problems, abuse drugs as well. Could their drug problems be linked to some inborn quirk? Might an inability to absorb enough dopamine, with its pleasure-giving properties, cause them to seek gratification in drugs?

Such speculation is controversial, for it suggests that broad swaths of the population may be genetically predisposed to drug abuse.

5406. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:05:12 PM

Niner,

As in something that must be filled? Yes. Addicts have such a "hole".

Weight problems are linked to serotonin, not dopamine.

5407. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:07:10 PM

Ace,

Well, I simply don't buy the thesis that a top mathematician is LESS aware of a diminishing quaility of work than a top guitarist. They might both "link" the diminishing quality to a lack of heroin. They're both wrong.

No. They are both probably right. if they are both genetically disposed to addiction, then the drug gives them the ability to function at something closer to "normal". They don't feel pleasure the same way as non-addicts. And if you force them to give up their drug, their brain chemistry will return to the old, pre-user days, and that is substandard to the brain of a non-addict.

5408. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:08:46 PM

I think someone should do research on jobs similar to writing & musicianship in THESE areas:

-- No direct supervision; no "superiors" at all; indeed, the artist/writer is much more informed/talented about his chosen field than his nominal "supervisors" (editors, A&R guys)

-- No dealing with creditors, bankers, and other such straight-laced types; all such "respectable" people are dealt with by agents and the like

-- No 9-to-5 working hours

etc.

*IF* there are such jobs that aren't in the arts, I bet you'd find a much higher population of addicts there, too.

Why?

Because someone with such a job can get away with being a drunk or a junkie. It's the "getting away with it" part that's determinative, not the "creative endeavor" part.

Look at reporters. Not really a "creative" job, but lots and lots and lots of alcoholics (or at least drunks). Why?

Because they need booze for their reporting?

Nah. Because they can get away with it. Their editors expect that they'll have a certain number of booze-hounds on the beat.

5409. Indiana Jones - 3/8/2000 4:10:17 PM

Niner's all for controlling drugs as long as he can get his Lasix fix.

5410. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:13:38 PM

Ace,

I said creativity--I had no intention of limiting it to writers and musicians. We notice it more in these fields, because it's reported on more.

But I imagine that the more creative or innovative the job, regardless of industry, the higher the rate of addiction.

5411. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:15:25 PM

It's the "getting away with it" part that's determinative, not the "creative endeavor" part.

No, that's not true. Addicts are able to "get away with it" in all lines of work.

5412. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:18:41 PM

The creative addict link is present because only creative folks write paens to their addiction.

I'll bet plenty of folks bit the heads off of live bats, but Ozzy Ozbourne talks about it, so it is behavior associated with headbangers.

Same with addiction. VH1 has some "survivor" up there every night yammering on about their addiction.

And few of them are "artists" unless Poison's "Cherry Pie" is art.

5413. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:19:29 PM

"No, that's not true. Addicts are able to "get away with it" in all lines of work."

Cal, please. We are discussing why artistic jobs sport a DISPROPORTIATE number of addicts.

Yes, there are addicts everywhere. Why are there a DISPROPORTIONATE number in the creative fields? Because they can get away with it.

An extremely talented mutual fund manager can get away with a coke addiction. He's extremely talented, after all.

A MODERATELY talented MF manager cannot. He will be fired.

An extremely talented guitarist can get away with a smack addiction.

But here's the thing: So can a MODERATELY talented guitarist. Because it's accepted.

Same thing with reporters.

A law firm would NEVER accept a moderately talented lawyer being perennially drunk.

A newspaper probably WILL accept a moderately talented reporter being perennially drunk.

5414. MsIvoryTower - 3/8/2000 4:20:29 PM

I love VH1, Behind the Scenes: a redemption story every time.

5415. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:21:13 PM

MsIt

It is an enticing formula. I'm addicted to it.

5416. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:24:48 PM

I enjoy VH-1's various "Behind the Scenes" shows, even though they're all pretty much EXACTLY the same.

My problem? With VH-1 running "Behind the Scenes: The Warrant Story" 24 hours a day, and with MTV running "Beach House" and "Darla" all the time, where am I supposed to get my Britney Spears fix?

It's odd -- the two "music video channels" play ZERO music videos.

5417. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:25:40 PM

"As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll."

Harry Shearer in "This is Spinal Tap".

5418. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:26:38 PM

The creative addict link is present because only creative folks write paens to their addiction.

That's an extremely limited definition of "creative".

5419. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:27:33 PM

Ace: For years I bitched about MTV and VH1 playing no music videos. I thought that "MTV2", an all music video channel, was a great idea.

Then I watched it. I am terrified that I am becoming one of those old farts who "can't stand that noise today's kids are listening to".

5420. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:30:35 PM

Rask:

In all likelihood, you already are.

While there's some new stuff I like -- hell, I dig Marilyn Manson's "Dope Show" -- it seems to me that 90% of MTV is five-member Boy Bands singing the most insipid, lushly over-produced syrupy love ballads. And I've always despised ballads.

If you're not a 12 year old girl, you're shit out of luck when it comes to MTV.

5421. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:30:36 PM

Poison is the best one on VH1 because it has the porn star Chloe in it a lot (she was an early groupie).

5422. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:33:29 PM

Ace,

We are discussing why artistic jobs sport a DISPROPORTIATE number of addicts.

No, that's what you are discussing. I said that creative people (who are not all writers and musicians) are disproportionately prone to certain types of problems--both addiction and depression were mentioned.

You are arguing selection bias, basically. I disagree.

5423. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:33:36 PM

Chloe Vevier? The one with the huge hooters?

If this is the case, I MUST see this show.

5424. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:34:36 PM

MTV is nightmarish. The "Real World" stuff is cringe-inducing "Mommy doesn't love me!" stuff; the videos (Spears and Beastie Boys "Sabotage" excepted) are either 5 DiCaprios or a brother with a bumper, and then you get FAN - ATIC, which is even more painful.

And Madonna is now a mother, so you get none of her hot videos.

It is a mess.

5425. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:35:23 PM

Ace

No. Her name is just Chloe. No last name, natural hooters. Still, you have to see the "Poison" one.

5426. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:37:08 PM

Madonna was always an ugly woman with GREAT presentation and sex appeal and a nice rack. As she grows older, her fundamental ugliness will show through more and more.

And she will NOT fade gracefully. She will be our Shelley Winters. An ugly old broad telling raunchy sex stories on Jay Leno in that STUPID fake British accent.

5427. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:37:46 PM

"Poison" went downhill after they stopped dressing up as women. I think they lost touch with their "creative" side.

5428. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:38:00 PM

Niner:

Actually, I saw the Poison one, now that I think of it. Twice.

I was confusing them with Warrant.

5429. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:39:06 PM

and they never did have the sophistication and nuance of "Ratt" or "Winger".

5430. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:39:38 PM

Ace

You are correct. She will flounder and flail to Alan Thicke's chair.

Then, some new Tarantino will cast her in an off-beat movie, and she'll be BACK!

But in her heyday, she could grind and push like the dirty little girl she was.

5431. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:40:34 PM

Poison had one great song -- "Talk Dirty to Me." They had another fun song I can't remember.

Ratt had "Round & Round," which I enjoyed.

Winger had no songs at all. Just that moron with the blond hair.

5432. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:40:53 PM

Is Poison the group that did Something to Believe In, or is there a new Poison I've missed?

5433. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:41:51 PM

Poison is CC Deville and Brett Michaels and the bass player who said, "If you were in a band in 1980s LA, it was all about pussy."

Now, Tommy Lee's band actually had a guy in it who did porn, I think. And Tommy Lee and the singer also had tapes of them banging someone stolen.

Another good one.

5434. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:43:29 PM

Niner:

Yes, of course. She was HOT when she was younger. But not from actual natural beauty-- just a great (likely fake) rack and dirty-dirty-girl sex appeal.

But the dirty-girl stuff don't work when you're 40. So we're left with a slightly haggish gap-toothed unbeautiful woman with a fake rack talking in a fake British accent and trying to pretend she's 20 ("Ray of Light" -- need I say more?).

This will only get worse. I am, however, surprised she has relinquished the spotlight to the extent she has. This provides me some hope.

5435. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:45:47 PM

Ace

The Mike Myers video was a decent comeback, but I fear it was an anomaly, like Randall Cunningham's season two years ago.

5436. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:47:40 PM

Cal:

Something to Believe In was indeed Poison. And no, that wasn't the "other fun song" I was alluding to.

The worst ballads are syrupy cute-boy-band ballads. The SECOND WORST ballads are Metal ballads, written ONLY to get a top ten hit and some pussy from 15 year old girls.

Motley Crue began this disgusting trend with "Home Sweet Home." I lay the blame squarely at their feet.

5437. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:48:16 PM

Poison also sang "Every Rose has its thorn". My ex-girlfriend could never get the song out of her head, so I used to sing the chorus to her at odd intervals for the purpose of driving her over the brink of insanity. Its the only song I knew of theirs.

5438. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:49:30 PM

Oh god that song sucked.

5439. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:50:21 PM

I only found Madonna remotely attractive during her "Vogue" period. The "Express Yourself" video in particular. She had this buff Veronica Lake thing going...

5440. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:50:40 PM

Actually, the melody of "Every Rose has its Thorn" is a perfect countermelody to "Something to Believe in". It is very odd.

5441. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:50:57 PM

"Ev -er - y cowboy sings a sad... sad... song"...

5442. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:51:36 PM

Rask

Yea, but she was also doing the lesbian/soft porn thing in that period. Good stuff. Not as good as "Like a Virgin" but still, quality dirt.

5443. MsIvoryTower - 3/8/2000 4:52:58 PM

Not being a guy, and not being 12 when Madonna came on the scene, I could never understand her appeal, musically, that is.

I thought she was embarrassingly foolish looking in the Austin Powers video. I mean, the butt rubbing was more than stupid looking.

Just my opinion, don'tcha know.

5444. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:53:23 PM

MsIt

She sings?

5445. MsIvoryTower - 3/8/2000 4:54:31 PM

ah, yeah, I get the point....

Still, one shouldn't even discuss her and music together.

5446. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:54:34 PM

I can't watch Madonna's videos, but I admit to a fondness for "Express Yourself"--yes, I mean the song.

5447. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:55:04 PM

"Actually, the melody of "Every Rose has its Thorn" is a perfect countermelody to "Something to Believe in". It is very odd."

As cancer is a perfect countermelody to rotting bed-sores, I suppose.

I despise Madonna. Although she's had some unquestionably great pop songs (Material Girl, Express Yourself, that song from "At Close Range," Like a Prayer, hell, even Vouge), she's forced some of the worst songs ever written or sung down our throats countless times.

You know the brain cells crammed with the lyrics of Poppa Don't Preach, Who's that Girl, etc.? Well here's the thing -- You'll never get those brain cells back. They will retain the Spanish lyrics to Who's that Girl ("Quienes es la Nina? Senorit, mas fina") until the day you die.

5448. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:55:57 PM

Like a Virgin came out when I was a senior in high school, and a lot of classmates thought she was the hottest thing on two feet. I couldn't stand her. I was a musical misogynist for quite a long time. I think the first album with a femal lead vocalist I ever bought was 10,000 Maniacs' "In my Tribe".

5449. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:56:33 PM

Madonna's "work" is all well and good, but it is akin to discussing Marilyn Monroe's rendition of "Happy Birthday, Mr. President."

5450. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:57:10 PM

Who's that Girl?

(Quienes es la Nina?)

Who's that Girl?

(Senorita, mas fina)

Shine on my life...

5451. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 4:57:36 PM

Sorry.

5452. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:57:49 PM

As cancer is a perfect countermelody to rotting bed-sores, I suppose.

I wasn't speaking in reference to quality at all. Only that the songs fit together perfectly. Since he couldn't have planned it, I figure that whoever wrote the songs must have subconsciously had the melody to one running through his head and wrote a countermelody to it. An indication of artistic limitation, obviously.

5453. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 4:57:59 PM

La Isla Bonita wasn't bad either, and "Into the Groove" wasn't a bad dance song. But what was that damned song from the "Vision Quest" (the film I saw on my first date) soundtrack? Ugh.

5454. MsIvoryTower - 3/8/2000 4:58:37 PM

So, 109

Was Madonna the catholic boy's fantasy?

Monroe actually had more talent than Madonna ever will find, but other than that, I suppose the comparison is a fair one.

5455. 109109 - 3/8/2000 4:59:28 PM

MsIt

Hazel was the Catholic's boy's fantasy.

5456. CalGal - 3/8/2000 4:59:38 PM

The other Madonna song I liked was called "Rain", or something like that.

I think Ace is right, though--even though she can't sing, someone is picking decent pop songs for her--if not Hall & Oates pop quality.

But then, not everyone can be that lucky.

5457. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 5:00:39 PM

"Into the Groove," "Chemical Attraction." All fine enough pop songs.

The problem is with the True Blues. The problem is with the "Songs inspired by the Film Dick Tracy." The problem, in short, is her very existance, with a few exceptional songs which would have been sung by someone (a better singer, no doubt) if Madonna hadn't had the money to attract such high-quality pop songwriters.

5458. CalGal - 3/8/2000 5:00:42 PM

Crazy for You.

5459. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 5:01:35 PM

You too, Cal, but what was the name of the song?

5460. CalGal - 3/8/2000 5:01:51 PM

Oh, true enough. Her voice is worse than mediocre.

I wonder if she's paying artists not to cover her songs?

5461. CalGal - 3/8/2000 5:02:05 PM

Ha, ha.

5462. Dantheman - 3/8/2000 5:05:23 PM

Years ago I heard a solo acoustic version of Like a Prayer -- much better than the original. No idea who recorded it.

Every now and then, Madonna has a good song, but her whole shtick was shocking people, and there's a limit on how long that can go on. (then again, I tend to listen to classic rock or humor records when NPR isn't playing in my car -- I don't think I own an album made in the 90's other than the Eagles' Hell Freezes Over)

5463. CalGal - 3/8/2000 5:06:52 PM

Oh, the Hell Freezes Over CD wasn't good--they left off the best performance of the show (the acoustic version of Heart of the Matter).

But the tour was a hell of a lot of fun.

5464. Raskolnikov - 3/8/2000 5:07:49 PM

In the past year, I have even abandoned evening listening to the radio in favor of Books on Tape. I feel that it is my parental duty to be completely out of touch with the current music scene by the time my son becomes a teenager.

5465. Dantheman - 3/8/2000 5:08:55 PM

CalGal,
It's not on the CD? I have it on my tape. I agree it's great, possibly Henley's best lyrics on the album.

5466. CalGal - 3/8/2000 5:09:49 PM

Rask,

Spawn used to watch VH1 all the time, and he and I used to always listen to the same music. Now, he listens to Korn and Limp Biscuit, and says, "Hey, mom, this song is popular and boring--it's the type you might like."

And he's always right.

5467. CalGal - 3/8/2000 5:10:34 PM

It's on the video, but it's not on the CD--unless they rereleased it? I bought it when it first came out.

5468. CalGal - 3/8/2000 5:11:05 PM

That song is a Henley song, not an Eagles song, btw.

5469. Dantheman - 3/8/2000 5:12:27 PM

CalGal,
I know. I have the "original" version on my End of the Innocence tape.

5470. AceofSpades - 3/8/2000 5:15:17 PM

"but her whole shtick was shocking people, and there's a limit on how long that can go on."

And that limit was reached in 1987. When David Letterman begins mocking you by theorizing: "My theory about Madonna? She loves to *shock* us" -- it's time to move on to a new schtick.

Her swear-word performance on Letterman was embarassing.

The triple-whammy hype-storm over her "pornographic video" (Justify My Love) at the same time her dirty-picture book "Sex" was published AND "Truth or Dare" was released (in 1992 or thereabouts) was the final insult.

To her credit, she retreated from the shock-schtick at that point.
But I will never forgive her for it.

To my mind, though, she never was shocking at all, except perhaps to exceedingly insulated bourgeois mentalities. When hard-core pornography is then number-one renting and selling genre of videocassette in America, how can anybody fuss about seeing a nipple?

Who cares?

5471. TabouliJones - 3/8/2000 6:26:33 PM

Yeah, but it was the Immaculate Nipple.

5472. Cellar Door - 3/8/2000 6:31:05 PM

To her credit, she retreated from the shock-schtick at that point.
But I will never forgive her for it.

Bet you'd have forgiven her if she'd put out!

To my mind, though, she never was shocking at all, except perhaps to exceedingly insulated bourgeois mentalities.

I couldn't agree more.

When hard-core pornography is then number-one renting and selling genre of videocassette in America, how can anybody fuss about seeing a nipple?

Who cares?

Network "Standards and Practicis." It all has to do with the bizarre cordon sanitaire we've constructed around sex. The entire culture pulsates with sex. ALL advertizing is about sex. And yet, we're told over and over that sex is "dirty" and "disgusting" -- evn as the Rpublicans shove Monica's cum-stained dress in our face over and over and over again.

So compared to Lucianne Goldberg, Madonna's a healthy, normal girl.

5473. Cellar Door - 3/8/2000 6:31:41 PM

Practices.

5474. EricCartman - 3/9/2000 2:39:05 AM

Shit. Excellent music discussion, and of course I miss out. Oh well, I'll just say that Ace is spot-on in most of his musical critiques, especially on ballads. But there actually is a qualitative difference in the Poison/Warrant type of band, and the Ratt/Winger type. Mostly in the ability of the musicians -- the guys in Winger and Ratt could actually play their instruments, even if they weren't terribly adept at writing songs.

Anyway. Drugs and musicians.

Ace Message # 5474:

OK, let me be more clear, Ace -- some people are able to use drugs recreationally for creative purposes. This does not in any way mean that I endorse shooting heroin in the quest for writing a better song. But it does not exclude the possibility -- indeed the actual occurrence -- of musicians using psychedelics in the hopes of furthering their compositional boundaries.

If a musician feels like he "needs" drugs for anything, well, he's just fooling himself. He's an addict. But if he understands that certain substances can be useful in breaking down creative walls, something good may come of it. Or not. But you can't tell me with a straight face that Sgt. Pepper or White Album could ever have occurred without a "little help from friends".

Perhaps the reason you don't see it is because in your craft, there is basically one element -- composition. You write a rough draft, and commence touching it up. Same with songwriting, but there are two additional important elements -- technique and performance. I don't think there is a writing equivalent to just sitting and practicing scales with a metronome for hours at a time. Nor does the writer have to be able to get up on stage and write his script over and over in front of a paying crowd.

This doesn't mean that writing a script is simple. I can't do it. But it is a different animal.

5475. EricCartman - 3/9/2000 2:39:55 AM

Ace Message # 5382:

Cartman's position seems to be that drugs can in fact drive the creative process.

It is. They can. Again, in some people. Others could become drug-addled idiots after their first experience, or their first beer. Brian chemistry is not universal, so why is it so hard to believe that some people can experience heightened aspects of creativity on certain substances?

It all depends on what the creative person is after. Put in terms of scriptwriting, anyone can be a hack, and churn out another Friday the 13th or a Police Academy. But what inspires a Being John Malkovich?

Similarly, to use your G N'R/Poison dichotomy, any doofus could write a hack-job like "Every Rose Has Its Thorn" with or without a straw in his nose. But Appetite for Destruction, a truly great rock album all the way through, is all about those guys' lives, which obviously revolved around sex, booze, and drugs. Would it have had the same punch and devastating honesty if the boys had just said no? Of course not.

5476. EricCartman - 3/9/2000 2:48:59 AM

Niner Message # 5404:

This in a world where the drummer for Rush got a degree in drumming, duuuude!

Heh. Well, I've seen 'em live three times, and I'll tell you -- he deserves one. The guy is a master craftsman of his instrument, and probably one of the most erudite people in rock (admittedly, not much competition).

But you know, Neil Peart actually has a musical talent, whereas someone like, say, Ricky Martin or the Backstreet Boys, do not, yet reap much larger rewards.

Ace Message # 5420:

If you're not a 12 year old girl, you're shit out of luck when it comes to MTV.

Precisely. It's amazing, the amount of mindless hype machinery built around legitimizing awards shows and such. Clearly the people who put these things together are marketers, and care nothing about actual music. The mentality is clear, when Jethro Tull wins an award for "Best Heavy Metal Band", or Kid Rock, with his fifth or sixth album, gets nominated for "Best New Artist".

It's a big fucking circle-jerk, by a bunch of inbred cokeheads who are just looking for another commercial jingle to license to the Gap.

Sorry to turn this into the Music thread, Cal. But there is a tenuous connection, as the music business really just looks for shit it can put in a movie, TV show, or commercial.

5477. EricCartman - 3/9/2000 2:50:49 AM

And speaking of Jethro Tull, I'm off to watch the remarkable Ian Anderson on Politically Incorrect. Hasta luego.

5478. EricCartman - 3/9/2000 2:53:21 AM

Jesus. "Brian chemistry" is of course "brain chemistry". Have another beer, Cart.

5479. CalGal - 3/9/2000 3:15:24 AM

One would think there would be more quality adaptations of Agatha Christie's works. After all, her plots were meticulously constructed, her characters uncomplicated, and she had a delightfully macabre sense of humor.

But no. Most Christie adaptations appropriated one of her two famous characters, Poirot or Marple, a title of a famous Christie book, and invented the story. Naturally--given one of the most elaborate plotters in mystery fiction, who wouldn't dump her stories and let a hack do the work?

Sigh.

There is only one Christie adaptation worthy of the Dame, and it doesn't involve Marple or Poirot. Made by a Frenchman, which must have shocked Agatha, given her cheerful xenophobia, Rene Clair's And Then There Were None (1945), is a marvellous, funny mystery based on one of Christie's best works. It has just the proper amount of supercilious Brit distaste for all things "foreign" (said with the lip curled just so). Clair's screenplay also captures the mordant humor of the Christie original, and it is delivered by ten actors who were at the top of their respective forms. Richard Haydn, as the gloomily droll butler, and Judith Anderson, as the upright spinster whose every word is dipped in vinegar and propriety, are the standouts, and they had a great deal of competition.

The story, should you really need to know, involves ten people who are brought to an island to be murdered for their sins. "And Then There Were None" refers to the last line of the nursery rhyme, "Ten Little Indians". Recite the verse and you'll get the general idea.

It's fine for kids over the age of 10; no gruesome death scenes and they'll get a great deal of the humor. Rent it and watch with a nice pot of Earl Grey.

5480. AceofSpades - 3/9/2000 10:00:22 AM

Cal:

What the hell are you talking about? "The only adaptation worthy of the Dame"?

Are Murder on the Orient Express, Evil Under the Sun, and Death on the Nile (my least favorite of the three, but still good) wanting?

5481. CalGal - 3/9/2000 10:26:11 AM

Ace,

They are most assuredly unworthy, although they are the best of the rest.

The Ustinov Poirot movie rules (started by Finney, but Peter used it more):

focus attention on Hercule and his weird little mannerisms
Cast a number of Hollywood hasbeens and Masterpiece Theater wannabes to stand around and listen to Poirot as he explains how brilliant he is.
Give every character a motive for murder--after all, it's what worked in Murder on the Orient Express! Never mind that this was the entire point of Orient Express, and was what made it different.
Camp it up. The humor is mannered and cheesy, which is completely wrong for Christie.
The movies never capture the mood of the work in question.

I do appreciate the fact that they keep the details of the murder and don't change them beyond recognition.

Of the three you mention, I will occasionally watch the end of Evil Under the Sun--Jane Birkall does an excellent job with her character, and the transformation is a hoot. Straight from the book. Orient Express is top heavy and dull. Death on the Nile is the weakest by far and its sins are the most inexcusable--it uses her best book as a source and gives us Mia Farrow.

But at their best, these are all nothing more than serviceable. And Then There Were None is an excellent movie in its own right, and is the only one that does credit to the original.

5482. Dantheman - 3/9/2000 10:28:11 AM

My favorite use of Agatha Christie's characters was by Neil Simon in Murder by Death. Excellent campy send-ups of the great detectives.

5483. CalGal - 3/9/2000 10:40:11 AM

I don't care for Murder by Death, but Maggie Smith saying, "Where's my Dickie?" gets me every time. The other great moment is the entrance of Miss Marbles and her nurse, Miss Withers, when everyone pays deference to the sweet little old lady in the wheelchair.

5484. Dantheman - 3/9/2000 10:42:26 AM

Murder By Death is one of my favorite comedies. I especially liked Peter Sellers' last line, when No. 2 Son asked him whether there had really been a murder. He said that there had been: "Killed good weekend."

5485. Raskolnikov - 3/9/2000 11:45:19 AM

I haven't read enough Christie to comment on her particularly, but the best movie mysteries focus more on drama and suspense. Figuring out whodunnit is an intellectual puzzle, not the basis for a drama. And intellectual puzzles are much better suited for a book, where the reader can stop and think.

And Then There Were None works because it is *suspenseful*, with the cast getting knocked off one at a time, a formula of proven success in horror films.

5486. CalGal - 3/9/2000 12:11:33 PM

Oh, I was addressing the movie primarily as an adaptation, because that's why I love it so much. It certainly stands on its own as a terrific movie as well. I agree that it's suspenseful--and in fact, I think it's one of the movies that proved the success of the formula of the sequential knockoff. (How many times was it done before 1945?)

The film also improves on the book, in that the major characters are likeable and funny, if not sympathetic. Another formula that is still used to this day in good horror and action films, and another that I don't recall being used much before this point.

5487. Raskolnikov - 3/9/2000 12:22:45 PM

"(How many times was it done before 1945?)"

The "getting killed (or disappearing) one by one" formula is pretty old. I recently watched the "Cat and the Canary" DVD, a silent film from the 20s, which uses it, and which has been remade several times. Although I can't think of any other pre-1945 films off the top of my head, I am sure the formula was used in a lot of 20s "B" horror films which just don't get shown much today.

5488. CalGal - 3/9/2000 12:35:59 PM

Is The Cat and the Canary worth watching?

5489. Raskolnikov - 3/9/2000 12:55:49 PM

It was pretty good. I watched it mostly because it is largely seen as the ancestor of all the "old dark house" movies (although the credits say that it was based on a play). There are some wonderful sets, and some interesting trick camera work, but the story itself won't be much of a surprise to anyone who has ever seen an episode of Scooby Doo. The film's main problem, as I saw it, is that the premise has been copied so much the original appears very trite.

5490. glendajean - 3/9/2000 1:20:12 PM

Cal, has any Josephine Tey books been made into movies?

5491. glendajean - 3/9/2000 1:20:14 PM

Cal, has any Josephine Tey books been made into movies?

5492. glendajean - 3/9/2000 1:20:50 PM

I sneezed when I clicked on the "cast your mote" button. Sorry.

5493. CalGal - 3/9/2000 1:34:48 PM

GJ,

I was about to say, "Not to my knowledge", apart from a Mystery! adaptation of Brat Farrar in the mid-80s.

But then I went and checked. There was a version of The Franchise Affair made in 1950, which doesn't even have a Maltin summary (means it'd be impossible to find).

Bigger surprise: Alfred Hitchcock's "Young and Innocent" is based on A Shilling for Candles! I'll have to rent it immediately; I think I saw it years ago, but probably before I'd read Shilling.

5494. JudithAtHome - 3/9/2000 3:57:01 PM

Has anyone posted that George Burns died?

5495. Dantheman - 3/9/2000 3:59:47 PM

And Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

5496. JudithAtHome - 3/9/2000 4:02:49 PM

Thank you, Chevy DanTM.

5497. Dantheman - 3/9/2000 4:07:08 PM

Juditha,
Sorry, but resistance was futile (especially if it's under 1 ohm).

Seriously, if it's news, post it.

5498. CalGal - 3/9/2000 4:10:57 PM

I thought Burns died in 96.

5499. CalGal - 3/9/2000 4:11:54 PM

I just looked it up. He died four years ago today, according to the IMD.

5500. theDiva - 3/9/2000 4:13:28 PM

So George Burns is still dead?

5501. janjon - 3/9/2000 4:30:10 PM

If he isn't, those Oh God movies should be viewed again, for clues.

5502. AceofSpades - 3/9/2000 5:43:02 PM

Cal:

You're crazy. You ought to read Christie again.

You say each movie:

-- focus attention on Hercule and his weird little mannerisms

Ummnm, read the books. Hercule Poirot is nothing but a collection of weird little mannerisms. This is "character by affectation." It's what Hercule Poirot was.

-- Cast a number of Hollywood hasbeens and Masterpiece Theater wannabes...

Ummmm, they're mainly good actors. And they're BRITS, which is sort of required when making an Agatha Christie film (oh, sure, there's the one token American).

...to stand around and listen to Poirot as he explains how brilliant he is.

Umm, that's what Poirot did. He was as much a douchebag as his antecedent, Sherlock Holmes, in this regard.

-- Give every character a motive for murder--after all, it's what worked in Murder on the Orient Express! Never mind that this was the entire point of Orient Express, and was what made it different.

Different? Are you joking? From my memory, almost every single Poirot story had EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER with a motive to murder -- some farfetched, some more credible.

The ONLY difference in Murder on the Orient Express was that everyone did it. But it was purely conventional Christie that they all had motives.

Locked Room Puzzle Mysteries: Everyone has a motive. The trick is to find who had OPPORTUNITY.

More conventional mysteries: Most everyone has an opportunity (it's not a locked-room puzzle, in which the positions of all possible suspects at the time of murder are well known from the third chapter); the trick is to find who has the motive.

5503. AceofSpades - 3/9/2000 5:43:13 PM

-- Camp it up. The humor is mannered and cheesy, which is completely wrong for Christie.

Well, in the sense that Christie is humorless and dour, yes, it is a departure from the work. But a welcome one. Evil Under the Sun is one of the silliest, and I like it for that reason.

-- The movies never capture the mood of the work in question.

The mood? They were locked-room puzzles, Ellery Queen with British accents.

Nutty, nutty, nutty.

5504. AceofSpades - 3/9/2000 5:52:52 PM

And one last thing:

I never got any "mood" from the Christie books I read (one exception: And then There Were None.)

The murders were bloodless, the people were bloodless. Bloodless, bloodless, bloodless. Murder's just an intellectual game.

I will say that the filmed version of Murder on the Orient Express differed from the mood of the book in that the film HAD a mood. In the film, there was a palpable sense of dread and horror. A sense of the nastiness of murder. It's really chilling at times.

The book, on the other hand, was simply yet another corpse falling at Poroit's feet at an exotic location with lots of tony Brits around as suspects.

5505. CalGal - 3/9/2000 5:57:23 PM

Ace,

Sweetie, I read my first Christie before you were toddling (Murder in Mesopotamia; I was 9). In any event, I'm not going to argue this because anyone who thinks that all Christie murderers had an obvious motive isn't worth getting fussed about.

5506. AceofSpades - 3/9/2000 6:19:13 PM

"In any event, I'm not going to argue this because anyone who thinks that all Christie murderers had an obvious motive isn't worth getting fussed about."

The murderer often had a concealed motive. But most of the people at the spa (or whatever) had a motive.

That's what I remember. Then again, I only read about a dozen of her books, and many of those were the books films were made of.

Perhaps there were lots of Christie books with motives few and far between. I didn't read them, or don't remember them.

5507. AceofSpades - 3/9/2000 6:36:52 PM

Cal:

Oh, don't get "fussed," certainly. I'm just telling you my memory.

I haven't read her books since I was a kid (round 11-14, myself). My memory could be faulty-- I could be remembering the movies when I think I'm remembering the books. But my recollection is that Death on the Nile & Evil under the Sun were very close adaptations.

And, though I never saw the movie, I seem to remember lots of motives in Roger Aykroyd, too.

Obviously you hold The Dame in greater esteem than I. Not that I don't like her; but I'm not a fan. Perhaps I will try reading her again now that I'm older, and all of the characters don't seem like walking fossils to me.

5508. AceofSpades - 3/9/2000 6:38:38 PM

and PS:

Don't get fussed about "nutty, nutty, nutty." It's meant in a nice way. Like this: (smiling) Nutty, Nutty, Nutty.

5509. CalGal - 3/9/2000 8:57:37 PM

Ace,

No, I don't hold Christie in great esteem as a writer. As a murder mystery whodunit writer, though, she was very good--many things we take for granted were invented by her. And she wrote a hell of a lot of books that were a lot of fun, so it seems a shame, given that they are simplistic and ideal for filming, that there aren't more worthy adaptations. My fondness for her stems from the fact that she was one of the first adult writers I read (the other two were Dick Francis who is still alive, bless his heart, and John D. MacDonald).

Christie's innovation came from the fact that she mixed and matched so much. In some books, the motive was hidden, or barely mentioned. In others, everyone had a motive but the kicker was that no one could have done it--or that everyone could have done it. And so on. My favorite of hers, Death on the Nile, has two obvious and equally worthy suspects--no one else comes close. And yet, they are cleared from suspicion before the murder was even committed. That's why it annoys me that all the movies focus only on motive, and wastes all that time with the sidekicks sputtering out ridiculous scenarios to establish means and opportunity.

Mood: Movies on Christie books should follow the plot and they should always carry themselves as if they know that a well-bred English woman with a mind for murder has cheerfully dreamed up this story, killing off people as needed.

If you read any of her books again, I'd do this group:

Death on the Nile (Jacqueline de Bellefort is as genuinely moving as Christie gets)
Mysterious Affair at Styles
Cards on the Table
4:30 from Paddington (What Mrs. McGillicuddy Saw)
The Moving Finger
13 at Dinner (Lord Edgeware Dies)
Murder at the Vicarage

Orient Express is a waste of time, and I'm not particularly fond of the book And Then There Were None, although I thought the murderer's motive was unique.

5510. jexster - 3/9/2000 9:01:03 PM

Blue Update

Danny's in crisis. Jexster to the rescue!

5511. Angel-Five - 3/9/2000 11:12:00 PM

I just saw American Beauty finally. I didn't want to see it, but went to indulge my brother. And the first half hour or so I was squirming in my seat --I thought it was horrible and cheesy.

It ended up being one of the best movies I've ever seen in my life. I can't for the life of me imagine, unless it's due to the earlier scenes, why anyone would call this a bad movie. My brother suggests that it's because some of the caricatures in the movie cut too close to the bone for some folk, but if so it's a matter of their perception. There isn't anyone portrayed in the movie who isn't wonderfully human; it's completely engaging to watch every character unfold and I can't remember the last time I watched a movie where my perspective was shifted so skillfully and so many times. My perspective on each character and my perspective on the tale. And the performances were excellent.

Different strokes for different folks; I saw beauty. And not just in the beautiful shots and the brilliant engineering of some of the scenes and the cutting from media to media and in the soundtrack, not the standard sense of beauty, but beauty in the way Ricky Fitts saw beauty in the face of god.

5512. Angel-Five - 3/9/2000 11:12:07 PM

5513. SpenceMirrlees - 3/10/2000 1:10:01 AM

As a product of suburbia I found none of the caricatures cut very close to the bone at all. The word "caricature" is apt, and that's one reason I didn't care for it.

5514. SpenceMirrlees - 3/10/2000 1:12:36 AM

But I will say, in the 5 intervening months since I saw it, my dislike has waned a little. I would not say I hated it, but I definitely didn't like it.

5515. Dantheman - 3/10/2000 8:46:46 AM

A-5,
I also liked AB a lot. I especially enjoyed Spacey's character and his liberation from an unhappy life. Rask (I think) suggested that, by comparison to Ikiru, the liberation was callow.

5516. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 10:44:30 AM

Yeah, that was me. It just struck me as quite distasteful that Spacey achieves redemption through a regression to adolescence, and declining to nail a 17 year old girl, rather than through actually doing something particularly meaningful. Ikiru jumped out at me as the obvious contrast. The film basically seemed to me that the screenwriter (who is 43) was trying to rationalize a midlife crisis by casting it as an act of heroism.

And I didn't hate the film until the last half hour, when I realized that it was taking itself seriously. Until then, I thought it was being satirical, and was enjoying it.

5517. Indiana Jones - 3/10/2000 11:01:06 AM

Name the film:
1. I can't make you a great dancer. I may not even make you a good dancer. But I promise you I'll make you a better dancer.
2. Youth is wasted on the young.
3. I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself.
4. It's money and adventure and fame. It's the thrill of a lifetime and a long sea voyage that starts at six o'clock tomorrow morning.
5. I am big. It's the pictures that got small.
6. Mein Fuhrer, I can walk!
7. Take me to the window. Let me look at the moors with you once more, my darling. Once more.
8. In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed - but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love, 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
9. Now that we're through with Humiliate the Host...and we don't want to play Hump the Hostess yet...how about a little round of Get the Guests?
10. You got nothing to worry about: the walls of Jericho will protect you from the big bad wolf.

5518. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 11:12:11 AM

3) Dirty Harry
5) Sunset Boulevard
6) Dr Strangelove
7) Wuthering Heights?
8) Third Man
10) It Happened One Night

I should know 2 and 9.

5519. Cellar Door - 3/10/2000 11:12:44 AM

1. "All That Jazz"

4. "King Kong"

5. "Sunset Boulevard."

6. "Dr. Strangelove"

7. "Wuthering Heights"

8. "The Third Man"

9. You know -- that Bette Davis picture. She's married to Joseph Cotton and he's having an affair with that actor with the scar.

10. "It Happened One Night"

5520. Indiana Jones - 3/10/2000 11:17:40 AM

Rask is correct on 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10. Cellar added 1 and 4.

Nine doesn't star Bette Davis.

[I'm going to have to make a harder quiz next time.]

5521. Cellar Door - 3/10/2000 11:18:22 AM

Saw "Erin Brockovitch" last night. Enormous fun, and definitive proof that Julia Roberts deserves her salary. Great Movie Star Acting. There's something that she does with her face in the first five minutes of this movie that's simply amazing. If you were on the set you couldn't have seen it. But the camera gets it. She knows what the camera gets and she delivers -- in scene after scene after scene.

Everyone has been talking about this in "Norma Rae" terms, but to me it's closer to "Marked Woman." She plays a poverty level mother of three (from two different husbands) who wears short skirts, high heels, and low cut blouses, the better to show off her Fabulous rack. More important, she does not Suffer Fools, and stalks through the action telling everyone exactly what she thinks of them.

In other words: me on a bad day.

5522. Indiana Jones - 3/10/2000 11:21:38 AM

Cellar: You may wear short skirts and low cut blouses on bad days, but I'd like a second opinion on whether you have a fabulous rack.

5523. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 11:28:44 AM

I wouldn't.

5524. PsychProf - 3/10/2000 11:29:26 AM

cellar...I'd like to see photo validation of such...Erin seems to remind me of our own Cal.

5525. CalGal - 3/10/2000 11:30:10 AM

2. It's the guy who tells Jimmy Stewart to kiss Donna Reed in "It's a Wonderful Life".

5526. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 11:35:54 AM

Oh that's right. The "why don't you just kiss her instead of talking her to death" guy.

5527. Indiana Jones - 3/10/2000 11:47:03 AM

Cal is correct on 2.

5528. theDiva - 3/10/2000 11:50:31 AM

wait, isn't #9 from Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

5529. TabouliJones - 3/10/2000 11:51:46 AM

CalGal and Cellar especially, but any film historian type might want to check out a new movie called The Gambler. The movie tells the pseudo-fictional story of Dostoevsky's desperate efforts to meet a deadline in order to satisfy a lopsided bargain he had made with some parasitic editor. I read one review, which said that it was a middling piece of work. But the film itself is not what makes it most interesting. The real interest is a brief cameo by Luise Rainer, who is the only woman to have won successive Oscars for best actress (The Great Ziegfeld and The Good Earth in '36 and '37), and who thereafter abandoned Hollywood for good. Until now. She hadn't been on film for more than 50 years and the film critic Rick Groen says that her brief appearance feels like "history come to life." Honestly, I don't know much about Rainer, nor have I seen her in the aforementioned Oscar winning roles. Her story, however, sounds interesting. So, I thought I would mention it here. If you wish to see the review, you can check out The Globe and Mail's review section for today, at www.globeandmail.ca It is available online, but articles are only available for seven days.

Incidentally, Rick Groen (who I have praised here before) is in particularly fine form this week. Check him out if you appreciate good film writing.

5530. Indiana Jones - 3/10/2000 11:54:28 AM

Diva is right on number 9.

So the only one left is 10--You got nothing to worry about: the walls of Jericho will protect you from the big bad wolf.

Which I thought was one of the easier ones.

5531. theDiva - 3/10/2000 11:55:22 AM

hm. Doesn't ring a bell.

5532. CalGal - 3/10/2000 11:55:44 AM

No, Rask got that or I would have mentioned it.

5533. Indiana Jones - 3/10/2000 11:57:26 AM

Doh! Cal's right. Next time, they get harder!

5534. theDiva - 3/10/2000 12:00:11 PM

oh jeez. How could I forget?

5535. CalGal - 3/10/2000 12:02:36 PM

TJ,

Thanks for the tip; interesting news about Rainer! I couldn't remember the reviewer's name or the site, but now that you've mentioned it I'll add it to the butterscotch bar. But I couldn't find the article on Rainer.

5536. TabouliJones - 3/10/2000 12:10:43 PM

CalGal,

If you search on the word gambler, you will be taken to the review. This week, Groen also reviews the new movies by Polanski and DePalma. He isn't much enamoured with either of the films, but does say that it is interesting to watch good directors struggle with relatively week material. The Polanski review is especially insightful in this regard.

5537. Cellar Door - 3/10/2000 12:14:07 PM

I know #9 doesn't star Bette Davis, Indy. It's "Who's Afraid of Virgina Woolf?" of course.

5538. CalGal - 3/10/2000 12:16:45 PM

Yes, I'm building the "Releases this Week" post. No one has much good to say about either Mission to Mars or Ninth Gate.

5539. TabouliJones - 3/10/2000 12:21:38 PM

I usually check out Groen on Fridays, then Ebert, and sometimes The New York Times. I find that reading these three sources gives me a good sense of which new releases are worthwhile viewing. I also like to check out David Edelstein in Slate, who is usually pretty good -- despite occassionally grinding some annoying axe or other. I can't connect with Ebert or The Ny Times this morning, however.

5540. CalGal - 3/10/2000 12:29:36 PM

Ebert's site is just now back up. The Times is up at the moment, but its availability has been dreadful lately.

I read Ebert and the Times too, but I've been looking for a few more regulars. I've never found EW's reviews very useful, even as a gauge. Ebert tends to be too nice, but he doesn't automatically assume that everyone uses the same criteria. So he spells out his, and quite often he'll be nice enough to give you a tip ("Hey, if you liked [movie A], then give this one a shot.")

5541. TabouliJones - 3/10/2000 12:42:49 PM

Ebert does tend to be too nice on occasion. For example, he really enjoyed The Whole Nine Yards, which I went to see based on his recommendation, and felt like I wasted my money. I also think he over extends himself at times. He writes about six or seven pieces a week, so it is hard for him to keep the quality consistent in his reviews. Generally, though, Ebert is respectful of his readers and more often than not he comes up with a well written, insightful, review. He makes a nice counterpoint to Groen, who tends to be overly critical at times. Incidentally, I am more often annoyed than edified by the reviews in The New Yorker (by Terrence Rafferty and some other writer).

I must take off, but I will check in this evening.

5542. CalGal - 3/10/2000 12:43:29 PM

Opening This Week:

Deterrence: Kevin Pollak is the accidental president who threatens Iraq in the year 2008, sparking fears of nuclear war. Basically a made for TV movie masquerading as a feature film, it also stars Timothy Hutton and Sheryl Lee Ralph. First time directorial effort of Rod Lurie, a former movie critic. I am not making this up.

Last week's releases: Message # 5192.

5543. mintcar - 3/10/2000 12:57:02 PM

I saw a sneak preview of "Mission to Mars" on Wednesday. The audience laughed through most of the film, and especially the ending. It is not a comedy, but the melodrama is so extreme that it's often hard to tell.

5544. KuligintheHooligan - 3/10/2000 12:57:59 PM

Finally...

1) Excalibur (favorite drama)
2) Outlaw Josie Wales (favorite western)
3) Crimes and Misdemeanors
4) Raiders of the Lost Ark (favorite action flick)
5) Aliens (favorite space flick) & Alien
6) Terminator 2 (favorite SciFi flick) & Terminator
7) Planes, Trains and Automobiles (favorite comedy)
8) Jurassic Park
9) Inherit the Wind (with Spencer Tracy) (favorite legal flick)
10) Cool Hand Luke (favorite prison flick)
11) Live and Let Die (favorite Bond flick)
12) The Ghost and the Darkness (favorite Africa-theme flick)
13) Kelly’s Heroes (favorite war flick)
14) Muppet Treasure Island
15) The Lion King (favorite animated flick)
16) The Island (Michael Cain flick about pirates in the Caribbean)
17) Deliverance
18) Princess Bride
19) Fiddler on the Roof (favorite musical)
20) Rocky (favorite sports flick)

Honorable Mention (in no particular order):
The Ten Commandments (favorite biblical flick)
The Pink Panther Strikes Again (runner-up comedy)
Toy Story (runner-up "animation")
Unforgiven (runner-up western)
Saving Private Ryan (runner-up war)
Predator (runner-up SciFi)
Escape from Alcatraz (runner-up prison)
The Fugitive
The Magnificent Seven
Jaws

(cont)

5545. KuligintheHooligan - 3/10/2000 12:58:54 PM

Comments: I combined the Terminator and Alien flicks, although I suppose that isn’t entirely "fair." Also, my list has a glaring omission, and that is no Love Story/Romance item. I am just drawing a complete blank on those films and can’t think of "the best" one. And since all of this is purely from memory, there could be an outstanding film in general that I have just failed to recall, which would be in my Top 20 if only I could remember it!

All of the above movies I have seen at least twice, except for Saving Private Ryan, so I hesitated to even give it honorable mention since I haven’t been able to "analyze" it as much as the others. Still, it was a great war flick. I am sure I am missing other great war flicks that just aren’t coming to memory, though.

5546. theDiva - 3/10/2000 12:59:00 PM

I will be going to see The Ninth Gate. Johnny Depp consistently picks interesting projects, plus he's real easy on the eyes.

5547. CalGal - 3/10/2000 1:01:38 PM

Kuligin,

Interesting list. Have you seen Mountains of the Moon, speaking of Africa flicks?

5548. CalGal - 3/10/2000 1:02:57 PM

Diva,

Exactly right on Depp. He never completely disappoints, and he's such a pretty lad.

5549. KuligintheHooligan - 3/10/2000 1:04:51 PM

CalGal, I never even heard of Mountains of the Moon! Is it a good flick, IYO?

I doubt, though, that I'd be able to find it here in Namibia.

Hey, concerning the Mission to Mars cast, who is in the movie?

5550. theDiva - 3/10/2000 1:05:30 PM

Cal

I don't think I've seen a picture of his yet that I haven't enjoyed. Either he's got an incredible agent or incredible taste. I suspect the latter. He's a pleasure to watch, and on more than one level.

5551. CalGal - 3/10/2000 1:08:56 PM

Oh, I should have mentioned that. It's got Don Cheadle, Tim Robbins, and Gary Sinise.

Mountains of the Moon is the story of Richard Burton and John Henning Speke and their feud about the source of the Nile.

I haven't seen it, although it's queued up for rental. Since it came out in 1990, there is a decent chance you can find it. It received excellent reviews at the time.

5552. KuligintheHooligan - 3/10/2000 1:12:01 PM

Thanks CalGal! But again, finding it in Namibia will be a task, I think.

5553. CalGal - 3/10/2000 1:12:57 PM

Diva, I don't generally like Depp's movies, even though I usually like the people he plays. Gilbert Grape is probably the movie of his I enjoy the most, and that's because I am a sucker for decent dysfunctional family movies. I thought Sleepy Hollow was dreadful, although he was adorable.

5554. theDiva - 3/10/2000 1:15:24 PM

You know, I didn't see that one, more's the pity. Loved Gilbert, thought Dead Man was a hoot, ditto Ed Wood. Enjoyed the thriller where he was trying to save his daughter, though I'm damned if I can remember the title, something with TIME in it.

And Don Juan de Marco.

swoon

5555. Cellar Door - 3/10/2000 1:32:43 PM

And I loved him in the grievously underrated "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas."

Hey Kuligin -- did you ever see the original version of "Ghost and the Darkness" -- "Bwana Devil"?

5556. theDiva - 3/10/2000 1:33:20 PM

Another one I missed, unfortunately. I just love the idea of Johnny as Hunter Thompson.

5557. CalGal - 3/10/2000 1:37:30 PM

Diva, do you have DVD yet? The reason I ask is because one of the things I do with the movie rental program (Netflix) is queue up movies that I keep on meaning to see, but that never strike my fancy when I happen to be at the video store. Very useful.

5558. KuligintheHooligan - 3/10/2000 1:45:15 PM

"Hey Kuligin -- did you ever see the original version of "Ghost and the Darkness" -- "Bwana Devil"?"

Cellar, I didn't even know there was an original version, although, I suppose I should have guessed there was one. When was it produced and who was in it?

5559. theDiva - 3/10/2000 1:45:17 PM

Nope, not yet. That's on the back burner. We still need to get a second VCR for the bedroom. Mostly I leave the rentals to my darling husband, who is a real movie hound.

5560. CalGal - 3/10/2000 1:49:48 PM

Diva,

Dearheart. A DVD player is the same price as a VCR. Do not upset me by purchasing a second VCR, I beg of you. And if Sweetie's a movie hound, he'll be happier with DVD.

5561. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 1:53:10 PM

DVD players aren't *that* cheap. You can pick up a good stereo VCR for $100, nowadays, and you can buy a basic one for $50-$60. DVD players are mostly in the $200-$300 range

5562. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 1:53:36 PM

But they are well worth the price.

Deev: Join the revolution!

5563. theDiva - 3/10/2000 1:54:22 PM

$200-$300!!!!!!!

Egads, that's a month's tuition.

Nope, we're gonna go for your basic $70 VCR from Best Buy.

5564. CalGal - 3/10/2000 1:56:48 PM

Rask,

You're joking? Or maybe California is different. VCRs were prominently displayed at whatever electronics store I bought my DVD/TV combo, and the prices were basically the same. Maybe they were only selling high-end VCRs. But I'll take your word for it.

In any event, Diva, you don't want to be stuck with a brand new record player just as they stop making LPs, do ya?

5565. CalGal - 3/10/2000 1:58:25 PM

Sigh. Oh, well. Tell Sweetie's he's missing a lot of good stuff. (Movies, that is.)

I wonder if Judith came over to the side of truth and light yet?

5566. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 2:03:27 PM

Cal: not joking. Certainly, higher end VCRs can quickly get up into the price range of DVD players, but that isn't what most people buy. The cheapest VCR I have seen on sale was $49, and the cheapest DVD player I have seen was $180. While I doubt any VCR I would want would be less than $120, I similarly found that I didn't want any DVD player under $250.

5567. CalGal - 3/10/2000 2:08:42 PM

I believe you. I never pay attention to prices, anyway, so I probably just saw the high-end models.

In any event, the price drop is further confirmation, folks: The End Is Nigh.

5568. CalGal - 3/10/2000 2:09:34 PM

BTW, Rask, have you ever heard of "Potomok Chingis-Khana"?

5569. theDiva - 3/10/2000 2:10:07 PM

They stopped making LPs?

5570. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 2:16:05 PM

VCRs won't vanish until digital recordability becomes affordable. TIVOs cost about $400 and look pretty cool, but you can't rent anything for them so you still need a DVD player or VCR if you want to catch movies. Recordable DVD players are coming out soon, but I think I saw that the initial price was going to be in the $1000 range, and I don't know how much the recordable disks themselves will cost.

But give it a couple of years, and I think the VCR will be going the way of the LP.

Of course, in a few years after that, the DVD will probably be going bye-bye itself, as it will eventually face a threat similar to what CDs are facing with MP3s.

5571. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 2:18:54 PM

"BTW, Rask, have you ever heard of "Potomok Chingis-Khana"?

Not until I just looked it up on the IMDB. Doesn't sound like something I will rush out to see. I'll probably re-watch some Eisenstein films long before I will get around to that one.

5572. CalGal - 3/10/2000 2:20:45 PM

No, I'm not in any hurry to see it either. But I browse the aisles at Netflix and periodically I'll see a movie, look it up, and note a good review. Maltin gives it 3.5 stars--given that it's Mongolian and silent, that came as somewhat as a surprise. I was curious if it was well-known or not.

5573. CalGal - 3/10/2000 2:21:00 PM

somewhat of a surprise....

5574. Angel-Five - 3/10/2000 3:34:43 PM

Rask:

For me that was the whole point. The stupidity of his life is one of the things that Spacey's character talks about at the end. The little things.

And I'm really sure that the movie was satiric through most of its length. But the union of satire and import at the end, when the viewer realizes what the true source of beauty is, worked for me really well.

5575. PsychProf - 3/10/2000 3:56:47 PM

I'm gonna see Skip The Dog this weekend...I love dog movies...

5576. CalGal - 3/10/2000 4:00:00 PM

Prof,

You will enjoy it, you old sentimentalist. It's receiving many good reviews. I may take Spawn to see it as well.

5577. PsychProf - 3/10/2000 4:04:22 PM

Cal...Ms PP is not a dog movie fan, so I will attend the movie solo...haven't done that in years. She will then be in Florida a few days ahead of my arrival to spend time with one of her sisters. Maybe I will see ErinB as well...purely for academic reasons, of course...

5578. CalGal - 3/10/2000 4:06:07 PM

Erin isn't out until next week, when you can enrich your intellectual understanding of California case law with nary a twinge of guilt. I'm looking forward to seeing it--unlike many others, I freely admit to being a Roberts fan, and I've always loved Soderbergh. I hope it's good.

5579. CalGal - 3/10/2000 4:07:22 PM

As for going to movies solo--I do that a lot. Spawn and I go to movies a great deal, and I have several friends who I regularly go out with. But when they're busy and I want to see a movie, off I go.

5580. PsychProf - 3/10/2000 4:08:07 PM

Cal...the briefs I'll be lookin for are not legal.

5581. janjon - 3/10/2000 4:24:08 PM

What's not to like about Julia Roberts. She's got "it". It was obvious from Mystic Pizza onward. (Am I correct in thinking that that was her first major part?)

In some ways, it is her voice that pulls it all together. I mean, some of the features, her mouth in particular, aren't exactly perfect.

5582. PsychProf - 3/10/2000 4:26:09 PM

Jan...Bald guy sittting a counter in first scene of Mystic Pizza is a fellow Prof, good friend, and filled with humor and smiles...

5583. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 4:35:02 PM

A5:

"For me that was the whole point. The stupidity of his life is one of the things that Spacey's character talks about at the end. The little things."

But he has clearly become a much more confident, self-assured person because of the particularly juvenile actions shown in the course of the film. The implication of Spacey's monologue about his life is that he is regretting the way he was before he began on his jounrey of personal growth by lusting after a cheerleader and smoking lots of pot.

"And I'm really sure that the movie was satiric through most of its length. But the union of satire and import at the end, when the viewer realizes what the true source of beauty is, worked for me really well."

I don't think it meshed well at all. His monologue on finding beauty around you has damned little to do with the rest of the film, and has little to do with his personal redemption. It is a tacked on, extraneous moral.

You see, I initially thought that the film was satirizing Spacey's mid-life crisis. I thought that the point of the film was that he was just as pathetic in his attempt to turn his life around as he was at the beginning of the film. I wasn't sure where the film was going with this, but I was interested. But then, his character becomes heroic, and this heroism is played completely straight. We are honestly being asked to believe that his self-absorbed retreat to adolescence is a *good thing* in that it led him to become a better a better adult. I found this somewhat offensive.

When this was combined with some horrific plot contrivances (particularly the "Three's Company" misunderstanding involving Chris Cooper's marine), the tacked-on moral, the constant cribbing from many other movies (Sex Lies and Videotape, Lost Highway, Lolita, Sunset Boulevard, Ikiru, Red Shoes, etc.), and the praise being showered on the film, I experience aesthetic dyspepsia.

5584. Raskolnikov - 3/10/2000 4:38:50 PM

I do understand that a lot of people like the film. But most popular films that I dislike, I can at least *see* why people like them. I don't understand the appeal of this one.

However, I have ranted against the film frequently. I am quite willing to stand by and do my best stop from puking when people praise it.

5585. janjon - 3/10/2000 4:43:08 PM

Aesthetic dyspepsia, eh. Good way to put it. I especially found the way the marine (and that wife of his) was protrayed to be especially simplistic and derivative.

I guess I would summarize my feelings by saying that the movie was pretentious more often than not. Were it not for the terrific acting (Spacey and Benning in particular), the whole thing would have both stunk and sunk.

5586. ChristinO - 3/10/2000 5:51:03 PM

Diva,

Yes they stopped making LPs for the most part but some artists still release on LP----unfortunately it's mostly "dance" music.

My dad found a great LP store in Asheville called The Wiz and all they sell is vinyl. The thing you get with vinyl that you CAN'T get with digital is the "sound of the room".

5587. Cellar Door - 3/10/2000 6:22:57 PM

The ad campaign for it read "A Lion in Your Lap -- A Lover in Your Arms!"

5588. LadyChaos - 3/10/2000 7:10:45 PM

DUMP JUDGE JUDY!!!

5589. jexster - 3/10/2000 9:14:57 PM

Am I the only one who finds the substance of this movie[Ghost Dog] repulsive?
- David Edelstein

Help Cllrdr's in moral crisis!!!!

I didn't think anything offended him. This could be serious - serious!

5590. Angel-Five - 3/11/2000 12:19:58 AM

Rask:

Hey, like I said, different strokes. To me the notion of finding a sort of illumination in the everyday stupidities of human nature isn't that farfetched -- as far as Spacey getting a lot more confident, I don't think it's because he started getting high again and lusted after his daughter's friend. I don't see that sort of Crowley thing at work. I thought of the changes in Spacey's character causing both his new confidence and the things you mention -- sort of as if Spacey were learning to say 'what the fuck' in his midlife crisis.

I read an interview with Mendes where he pointed out that none of the characters were good or bad, they just were. Everyone is presented as someone who can be understood through their stupidities but not beatified or maligned through them. I guess I understand why some people react negatively to the movie, because I hadn't though about people treating it as a clear cause-and-effect meditation. For me, I just resonated very strongly with the theme (summed up for me in the explanation Ricky Fitts gives of what he shoots and why, and what he sees in the video) because I more or less feel exactly the same way about some things.

I wonder whether you can correlate between the people who loved and who hated the movie based upon who identified and didn't identify with that explanation. Obviously there'd never be a total correlation but I still wonder...

And, I'm sorry, but if you weren't rolling during the 'Who's the King??' scene, you aren't human.

5591. Angel-Five - 3/11/2000 12:29:36 AM

I also liked the way just about every initial impression and theme in the movie was deconstructed. I enjoyed the way Spacey lusts after this idealized cheerleader, who seems nice, then is revealed as a horrible bitch as Spacey's lust for her increases. At first it's all harmless, then as you see more and more of both characters you start feeling how horribly wrong it is and how they're both looking at illusions of each other. And then, just when you're expecting the director to drag you down into this pit -- both characters redeem themselves. It's not a moral thing, just a human thing.

I have a question in general.

I thought Thora Birch wasn't yet eighteen. Is this indeed the case? Because I do wonder if so why there wasn't a gigantic Puritan outcry over the scene where she disrobes in the window.

5592. Angel-Five - 3/11/2000 12:29:37 AM

5593. Angel-Five - 3/11/2000 12:30:14 AM

According to IMDB she isn't -- I just checked.

5594. Angel-Five - 3/11/2000 12:31:07 AM

Jex - That's not Cellar's name.

5595. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 9:52:07 AM

Last night I watched HBOs "If These Walls Could Talk 2" and I thought the section with Chloe Sevingy was fantastic. I had only seen her in "Last Days Of Disco" and thought she was rather wooden in that one but playing a motorcycle riding lesbian must be more up her alley. The make-out scenes were really something; she was very...convincing.

The third act, with Sharon Stone and Ellen DeGeneris, sucked rocks.

5596. Jenerator - 3/11/2000 10:46:58 AM

Who all has seen Rancid Aluminium? Was it supposed to be that way or did the movie lose its focus and direction?

5597. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 10:57:09 AM

I thought Rancid Aluminum was what happened when you forgot leftovers in the back of the fridge....

5598. Jenerator - 3/11/2000 11:00:31 AM

Judith,

Did you see it? Btw, I'm going to be in Texas in a couple of weeks. Maybe we could have a mini-motieunion.;-)

5599. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 11:08:04 AM

Jen:

No I didn't see it nor have I even heard of it!

That would be great...I must warn you, tho...I don't do Dallas! I am very phobic about driving there. Drop me a line at JudithAtHome@mailcity.com and maybe we could figure out someplace to meet for lunch. Or dinner!

5600. arkymalarky - 3/11/2000 11:13:36 AM

Why don't y'all both just hop over and we can all meet up in Texarkana?

Seriously, if there's ever any attempt to get several Texas Moteheads together I'd drive over for that, even to Dallas. Most of my family's still in and around there anyway.

5601. Jenerator - 3/11/2000 11:14:04 AM

Incoming!

5602. Jenerator - 3/11/2000 11:14:48 AM

Hey, that would be fun. Arky, Judith, me, Marshame, ChristiP(?). Anyone else?

5603. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 11:22:06 AM

arky:

I can make it to Texarkana if it's on a weekend...if y'all don't mind me dragging my husband along.

5604. arkymalarky - 3/11/2000 11:24:59 AM

Not at all. Will he be kicking and screaming? Mine will if I drag him, but I probably will anyway. If y'all come up with a plan for that, or for something in the D/FW area later, my email is amalarky@yahoo.com.

5605. Jenerator - 3/11/2000 11:26:54 AM

Arky,

Do you know of any others in the general area?

5606. arkymalarky - 3/11/2000 11:30:32 AM

Texans, yes, but from that area I can't think of any more right now.

5607. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 11:44:33 AM

arky:

My husband won't be kicking and screaming at all...he loves to go on road trips and he loves to meet new people. If we decide on Texarkana or someplace like that, we will find a hotel and make it a little getaway mini vacation. We did that in Paris Texas a few months ago...hey....Paris is a cute little town!

5608. CalGal - 3/11/2000 11:58:24 AM

Well, allow me to mention someone else before she gets here and her rage wreaks havoc upon my thread.

No, I'll just give you a hint: she's in lawschool right now.

5609. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 12:10:47 PM

Cal:

I think we mentioned her over in another thread...this has been a multilevel discusson.

5610. CalGal - 3/11/2000 12:13:18 PM

Oh, okay. BTW, did you get a DVD yet?

5611. arkymalarky - 3/11/2000 12:14:12 PM

I would love to meet Msit.

5612. CalGal - 3/11/2000 12:15:57 PM

Angel,

I don't think there is that much of an outcry these days over teenagers getting naked on screen, is there?

5613. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 12:30:28 PM

CalGal:

No we didn't...we're going to wait til we have more spare time to actually watch some of those movies from Netflix.

5614. CalGal - 3/11/2000 12:41:42 PM

Well, you can still get it now, silly! (g)

I've been finding it a great reason to rewatch movies, and the most important thing is that Spawn is watching them with me again. For a couple years, now, Spawn has started turning up his nose at "my" movies, if they are older. He and I still go to a lot of movies together and will watch current movies on tape or DVD together, but for many years he had enjoyed the old classics, and we'd watch screwball comedies, or film noir together--from the time he was 3 or 4. But in the past two years, he's been asking, "So how old is this movie?" and sighing in disgust if it was "old".

I've been sad, even though I knew it was a phase. He's got excellent movie sense, and I knew he just needed to set himself apart from Mom for a while. But still, it's tugged at me.

So recently, I had him sit down and watch the boxing scene in City Lights, which he just loved. He asked if there were any other funny scenes, so we watched the whole thing. He was very impressed, and told me to make sure I rented "the one where Charlie plays Hitler, and the one where he's in all the machinery".

Last night, I said, "Let's watch Invasion of the Body Snatchers." He said, "I saw that--the one with Jeff Goldblum? It's old." I said, "This one's older. It's black and white. But watch it anyway." He sighed, but he owed me a favor.

He was fascinated throughout and told me after it was over that he wanted to see the remake right away, to compare. I told him it was due in a few days (I had rented them in this order to compare, myself).

He said, "I used to watch these old movies all the time! I forgot how good they were. Let's watch some more, okay?"

I was much moved. (sniff)

5615. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 12:55:22 PM

That's great, CalGal...I know how you feel. Two of my favorite memories are watching Gigot with my son and both of us weeping profusely and him asking me why everyone was being so mean to Jackie Gleason. He was 7 at the time. The other is a very strange memory to call "favorite" but it was rewatching Brians Song with him during his chemo...I didn't want to because of the subject matter (Hodgkins) but he insisted. We survived that movie a lot else...

I wouldn't trade memories like that for anything. Oh, one more! Forcing him to go with me to see Amadeus and having him sit there stunned and afterwards, thanking me. (It was the music for him, not the movie.)

5616. JudithAtHome - 3/11/2000 12:55:48 PM

...that movie AND a lot else...

5617. jexster - 3/11/2000 1:06:57 PM

Join Bolt - Best Pop Culture Site On the Planet!

Here a teaser:

suck_my_twat
3/11/00 12:21:13 PM
Passions sux!! The acting is horrible, the writing...damn, a five year old could do better, and most of the cast is just plain FUGLY!! Luis and Sam are hot but therest? FUG-LY!! If you like to hear people whine for an hour, this is the show for you.

Generation Y on the way up!

5618. jexster - 3/11/2000 1:34:51 PM

Big Brother Official Fan Page

5619. CalGal - 3/11/2000 2:46:20 PM

Judith,

Your post got me even more sniffly, so I can imagine what it does to you.

So many parents who love movies don't pass that on to their kids--I know several movie lovers whose pre-schoolers haven't seen anything more adventurous than The Lion King. It's such a shame.

5620. jexster - 3/12/2000 12:55:18 AM

My Husband!

5621. jexster - 3/12/2000 12:55:38 AM

toys

5622. wonkers2 - 3/12/2000 10:09:35 AM

Just got around to seeing Jane Campion's latest Holy Smoke. It held my attention but wasn't anything to write home about. Campion did her usual axe job on humanity. I didn't notice a single sympathetic character in the movie. And Kate Winslet looks better clothed than fully frontal nude, in my opinion. She won her battle with the cult deprogrammer, Harvey Keitel, in the age-old way-by luring him into the sack and reducing him to a drooling, babbling blob. Keitel was a mercenary, unethical, schlock-psycho-religious deprogrammer. Winslet's mother was a moron, and her father was a macho Australian type who was screwing his secretary. One of her siblings was a simpering gay and the other an idiot whose girl friend was the down-under version of a fellating Barbie Doll. The spectacular Australian scenery was the only beautiful thing in the movie. At least it didn't get any Oscar nominations--the movie, not the scenery.

I seem to recall Holy Smoke was discussed earlier but I'm too lazy to scroll back to hunt up the previous comments. Cal is there an easy way to find them? I would be interested in the verdict of others on the show.

5623. JudithAtHome - 3/12/2000 10:10:01 AM

We checked out 6 videos yesterday and caught up on comedies: The Daytrippers because I adore Stanley Tucci and Parker Posey, Rushmore because I'd heard it was good, and Bowfinger because I'd heard it was really good. I liked all three but thought Bowfinger was the best.

And in keeping with what Steve Martin said about all movies costing $2,184, we saw one which proved that adage true: a Matthew Modine opus that he directed and co-wrote called "If...Dog...Rabbit..." and trust me, all $2,184 showed.

I have no idea what the title means because most of the action took place in a tortilla factory in Mexico where Matthew and his nutty brother are hiding out while hatching a plan to knock off the ticket office at the local bullring on a Sunday, which they do and it all ends badly, sorta like Julie Newmars face lift..she's in this turkey, too...you know, when your plans look good on paper but something goes badly awry and it ends up looking like a melting mannequin in a cheap clothing store?

The other 2 videos were more dreadful: a war movie that was sort of the French version of every war movie ever made but with subtitles and a space thing that was....rewound 4 minutes after the credits.

5624. wonkers2 - 3/12/2000 10:19:30 AM

Watched The Perez Family on Bravo the other night. Enjoyed it except for the exasperating commercials. It was a much better, more upbeat fantasy tale than Holy Smoke. Marisa Tomei was dynamite, IMO, in the lead. Mira Nair may be a better director than Jane Campion. The only other one of Nair's I've seen is The Kama Sutra which was quite good, more so than implied by the title. I missed Mississipi Masala and Salaam Bombay, which I recall got good reviews. Campion and Nair are both good directors who produce off-beat movies that usually hold my attention.

5625. Indiana Jones - 3/12/2000 12:17:18 PM

On CalGal's recommendation, I watched Seven Days in May. Directed by John Frankenheimer with screenplay by Rod Serling and starring Kirk Douglas, Burt Lancaster, Ava Gardner, and Frederic March, it promised to be good...and didn't disappoint.

Lancaster is a popular general who plots a coup because he thinks the unpopular President (March) has sold out the country to the Commies via a disarmament treaty. Ironically, the coup plot is now historically more reminiscent of what occurred during the final days of the Soviet Union (even the planned kidnapping while the President vacations at a remote lake) than anything that ever happened in the U.S. during the Cold War.

The performances are all great, perhaps led by Frederic March. In fact, I started wondering how many more films have a good performance by an actor versus good screenplays or direction. The reason I wonder is that so often actors have the reputation of being shallow prima donnas who muck up everything, whereas screenwriters and directors are the cerebral laborers trying to salvage a "vision." Maybe so, but I've been fortunate enough to see some firstrate acting lately.

And speaking of direction, I also wondered about John Frankenheimer. Here he was in the early 60s directing The Manchurian Candidate, The Train, and Seven Days in May, but by the late 70s he was churning out movies like Prophecy and The Challenge. (Someone out there may be a fan of the latter two films, but I about busted a gut watching The Challenge.) What happened to cause the fall off? Anyone know?

5626. Indiana Jones - 3/12/2000 12:17:49 PM

Anyway, I thought Seven Days did have some flaws. The first half of the film is almost strictly from Kirk Douglas's POV, but he virtually disappears in the second half. It's a little too preachy about the nirvana of brotherly love--Serling had a tendency that way--and the end fizzles (although I see why for "message" purposes it ends as it does).

Still, for the first two thirds, I was in "extended bladder" mode--meaning unable to go whiz for fear of missing something. And I found all of the characters interesting and at least somewhat balanced. Even Douglas, who's pretty much a Boy Scout, comes off a little swarmy--unless you're a Linda Tripp fan. It was also interesting to see a film in which the POTUS is the short-handed underdog who is loathe to use "dirt" against an opponent...dated, but a nice twist.

Some other quick comments: it appears that a 50ish, pudgy white male in a black-banded white hat and a light-colored suit--traveling alone and unable to put a fine Windsor knot in his tie--is the early 60s thriller equivalent of a non-regular on Star Trek wearing a red security uniform or teenagers having sex in a slasher flick. A senator attired thusly makes it through Seven Days alive (surprisingly, considering he's abducted by machine-gun-toting gendarmes), but presidential adviser Martin Balsam recycles his wardrobe from Psycho and pays for it a'la Ron Brown.

John Houseman also has a small part...and even almost 40 years ago looked like Professor Kingsfield.

5627. Cellar Door - 3/12/2000 12:57:01 PM

Frankenheimer has always been a masterful technician. If you can find a copy of the TV drama he directed "The Comic" starring Mickey Rooney, get it. It's amazing.

What happened to his career is what happened to the American commercial cinema from the late 1970's on -- formula material that takes no chances of any kind. The failure of "Seconds" (1966), one of his very best films, was the handwriting on the wall.

On top of that, he has a LOT of personal enemies. Not the happiest of campers he.

5628. JudithAtHome - 3/12/2000 1:26:45 PM

If he'd made "Seconds" in the last decade, he'd be looked on as a god today.

5629. AceofSpades - 3/12/2000 1:42:36 PM

John Frankenheimer directed "Dead Bang" in 1985 or so. It's a surprisingly good police procudural about real-life LA detective tracking down neo-Nazi/KKK killers in the heartland.

It stars Don Johnson.

Wait-- really, just hold on one damn minute. He's actually good in it.

5630. AceofSpades - 3/12/2000 1:50:52 PM

Dead Bang actually came out 1989.

The film is fairly smart, farily well acted, directed, and written. One complaint -- it's a bit tepid *at times.* Especially direction-wise.

5631. CalGal - 3/12/2000 1:54:00 PM

My lord. I speak, Indy listens. Go forth, young man, and purchase DVD.

Among the flaws, you forgot to mention Ava Gardner, who more than anything resembled an overripe plum.

I thought the end was more in favor of pragmatism than brotherly love--it wasn't so much that March believed in the good will of the bad guys, as he thought that he had to try this approach.

If you haven't seen Failsafe, you might want to try that next. Although I hear that Clooney is coming out with a remake very soon.

5632. KuligintheHooligan - 3/12/2000 2:11:11 PM

CalGal,

Can you help me out here? As you may or may not recall, Namibian TV plays reruns from the States, but usually only buys one year's episodes, then we never see the show again. In the last few months, we have been enjoying "Homicide" episodes, and last night the concluding episode was played. We will never see the show again here, unless something miraculous happens (like somebody actually gets smart at the NBC!).

Last night's episode had Frank Pembleton (is that his last name? the black guy partnered with Bayless) have a stroke. The show ended with him in the hospital and the message that he will probably not be the same again.

Does he leave the show at that point? Or does he indeed come back, and if not, who replaces him? And can you recall how many years ago this was?

Thanks.

5633. CalGal - 3/12/2000 2:18:41 PM

Can I help you out? Be silly.

Yes, Frank comes back; he spends much of the next season recovering. I think they gave him the stroke to give Braugher an acting challenge. He's pretty much back to normal halfway through the next season.

Braugher left the show two years later; the show stuck around one more year and then ended.

I think the stroke happened the end of the 96 season, but I can't swear. There are a lot of sites on Homicide, though, I'll see if I can dig one up.

5634. CalGal - 3/12/2000 2:28:56 PM

Episode guide

5635. vonKreedon - 3/12/2000 2:31:32 PM

Hey Cal! Speaking of TV episodes, I missed last weeks NYPD. So, what's the story on Danny?

Also, how are you? Any changes in your life?

5636. KuligintheHooligan - 3/12/2000 2:32:30 PM

Thanks CalGal! Yeah, I suppose asking if YOU could help me WAS a silly question! :-)

I really enjoy "Homicide" but unfortunately it is gone forever. What I really wish is that they'd get some "Law and Order" episodes, but those may cost too much?

"Homicide" came on Saturday nights. They are replacing it with some Canadian Mountain Police show, I can't remember the name. Unfortunately, they continue to play the same show that came on after "Homicide," Sinbad's "Vibe." And so here's my next question: When did "Vibe" start, and is it still going? Is it on a major network or some cable channel?

Last night's episode had some joke in the opening monologue about the Lewinsky thing. I usually don't get much further than the opening of the show.

5637. JudithAtHome - 3/12/2000 2:38:26 PM

Kuligen:

That Canadian Mountie show is pretty good, if it's called Due South ; nothing like the one it's replacing but a very well written and enjoyable little series, anyhow.

5638. Raskolnikov - 3/12/2000 3:51:47 PM

A5:

"I wonder whether you can correlate between the people who loved and who hated the movie based upon who identified and didn't identify with that explanation. Obviously there'd never be a total correlation but I still wonder..."

I had nothing against the "explanation" about beauty being where you find it. I just didn't think the film had much to say on the subject. It felt like a tacked on theme.

"And, I'm sorry, but if you weren't rolling during the 'Who's the King??' scene, you aren't human."

I liked a lot of individual scenes in the movie, that was certainly one of them. Funny sex scenes are all too rare.

"I thought Thora Birch wasn't yet eighteen. Is this indeed the case? Because I do wonder if so why there wasn't a gigantic Puritan outcry over the scene where she disrobes in the window."

She (and the Suvari chick) were both under 18 when the film was made. I read a bit about this when the film came out. Evidently, there are a few loopholes in kiddie porn laws, which don't necessarily make under-18 nudity illegal. As to why the Religious Right wasn't up in arms about the film, I don't know.

5639. JudithAtHome - 3/12/2000 4:19:38 PM

They never saw it...

5640. PsychProf - 3/12/2000 5:49:20 PM

As I was leaving the cinema today, I noticed a boy, about 10-12, being consoled by his mom(I assume). I tried to remember the last time I saw a young person touched by a movie in ways other than the pantomime of sex or violence. The film, Skip The Dog, was a good watch. Baseball, dogs(s), kids, war, and growing up were shown in way all ages could appreciate and relate to. Forties sentiment was the order of the day, and the audience I was part of, mostly families, was mesmerized. In spite of a high school performance by Kevin Bacon as the war-injured Dad, the cast was uniformly believable and period informed. It felt good to relate to a movie in ways that were not established by professional therapeutic experience. It was not just presented as a simpler time...emotions and their aftermath, were the heart of the plot and story. What was different is that one could understand in a personal way what was portrayed on the screen without a Psychobabble Glossary/Dictionary. Skip The Movie was just plain funny in many scenes...and Skip, as he sauntered down Main Street making his daily rounds, or fired across a baseball field with speed to burn, stole the show.

5641. coralreef - 3/12/2000 10:18:16 PM

Say, anyone else think that the creepy character Holland Taylor plays made The Practice unwatchable?

5642. CalGal - 3/12/2000 10:21:07 PM

She's one of many developments that just creeped me out on that show. I haven't watched it since the slasher nun episode, but I never bought her conversion from stalker to Jimmy-lover and back.

5643. wonkers2 - 3/12/2000 11:48:41 PM

Saw Cider House tonight. No Oscars there, IMO. What a contrast with Holy Smoke last night--while all the characters in Holy Smoke were trashed by Campion, almost every character in Cider House was likeable or at least had some redeeming virtue down deep somewhere. Even the incestuous father did the right thing in the beginning and the end. And the rest of the characters were so nice they were almost smarmy. Not my cuppa tea.

5644. Angel-Five - 3/13/2000 2:17:56 AM

Someone just told me that there is a televangelist named Creflo E. Dollar.

Someone tell me that's not true.

5645. ee - 3/13/2000 2:33:38 AM

5646. EricCartman - 3/13/2000 3:35:31 AM

A5:

As ee's pic points out, it's actually Creflo A. Dollar. Very animated fellow, he is. Occasionally I'll stop on his show on [whatever the religious network is on my DSS] for a few minutes, for a goof.

Not as funny as the singing televangelist called "Carman", though. Truly hilarious stuff, inadvertently. Awful music, bad singing, inept choreography and performance -- it's the kind of "wannabe cool" shit that makes kids embarrassed to be at church.

I dunno. When I was in high school, I can't imagine that I would have hung out with anyone that would go to a Carman concert. It's the religious version of that fruity Backstreet Boys/Ricky Martin-type shit that 12-year-old girls are into.

5647. EricCartman - 3/13/2000 3:38:06 AM

And is it just me, or is Edie Falco's character on The Sopranos getting fucking ding-loony these days? "Ding-loony" meaning, basically, that it's hard to tell whether she's crazy, or just plain stupid.

Whatever it is, the massive denial/utter hypocrisy bit is beyond old.

5648. Dantheman - 3/13/2000 9:08:22 AM

East is East
This movie, which has done excellent box office in Britain and is up for most of the major BAFTA awards (including best picture, where its competition includes Notting Hill, American Beauty, and The End of the Affair) will open in the US in mid-April. It is an adaptation by Ayub Khan-Din of his play, and is directed by first-timer Damien O'Donnell.

Om Puri plays George Khan, a Pakistani who leaves his wife and family in the last '30's and emigrates to Britain. He intended to bring his family over later, but instead married a Brit (Linda Bassett). They together operate a fish and chips shop and have 7 kids. The movie is set in a housing project in the early '70's, amid a backdrop of an Indian-Pakistani war and Enoch Powell's plans to "repatriate" all immigrants.

George wants to run the household in proper Pakistani fashion, with himself as master, even to the extent of arranging marriages for his elder sons. The kids don't think of themselves as Pakistanis, but rather Brits and assert their rights to choose their own paths. The resulting family squabbles (reminiscent of Fiddler on the Roof) are mixed well with some very low comedy, and both succeed. 3 1/2 planets (out of 4).

5649. Toenails - 3/13/2000 9:39:52 AM

"The Practice" is a tired show, as demonstrated by its increasingly hokey plotlines. Last night's was unbelievable.

Too bad. This used to be a fine program. Reviving it, in my view, should involve getting away from the "Bobby" character and his spouse-to-be, and concentrating on the lesser firm members.

Particularly distressing to me has been the de-emphasis of the black male lawyer, who used to sustain some of the show's best episodes.

5650. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 10:14:12 AM

I hated last nights Practice and kept flipping back to the PBS station running a really interesting 3 hour piece on the Dynasty of Gandhi-Nehru in India.

Did anyone see OhioSTOPAS on WWTBAM last night? I taped it and fast forwarded to the contestant intros...there were 2 guys from Ohio and I want to know which was Ohio, though I think I know.

I liked that episode of the Sopranos last night and don't think Carmella is acting goofy at all. She's always been a religious person; what do you think all that stuff with the randy priest was about? It wasn't all baked ziti...she was asking him questions about faith from the very beginning and just because he was more interested in her food than her soul doesn't mean she wasn't a committed Catholic.

I loved how Tony went from that heart-felt apology with AJ to murdering some other parents son...the way that kid called out to his "mommy" right before the bullets hit was wrenching.

5651. Dantheman - 3/13/2000 10:16:20 AM

Juditha,
He had said it was the one without the eyebrow ring, so it's the one with the big mustache.

5652. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 10:17:46 AM

Thanks, Dan...I knew he identified himself in some way but forgot what he gave as the hint.

5653. Cellar Door - 3/13/2000 10:54:33 AM

"Say -- wouldn't this be a perfect part for Kevin Spacey? Oh. I'm sorry. Never mind.

5654. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 11:03:11 AM

Cellar:

I think Steve Martin will do an excellent job in this...he has that refinement and class thing down pat. Pretty good for a Waco boy!

5655. OhioSTOPAS - 3/13/2000 11:18:28 AM

Hi, Judith and Dan. Yes, I was the guy with the mustache and glasses (and no eyebrow ring).

In addition to my frozen smile and wave, I see I grabbed another second of fame as the camera caught me entering my "Fastest Finger" answer. How could a guy with that much focus and determination be wrong???

5656. Dantheman - 3/13/2000 11:23:09 AM

You looked good, Ohio. No more questions about your moniker.

5657. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 11:36:08 AM

Hey, the guy who beat you out did it in 3.5 seconds...that is FAST! No shame in that...

5658. glendajean - 3/13/2000 11:40:56 AM

Pretty good for a Waco boy!

Hey, some of us make good.

5659. KuligintheHooligan - 3/13/2000 11:45:58 AM

Judith, yes, it is "Due South." I'm glad to hear it is a good show. "Homicide" was probably the best show to watch here, although there is an Australian show, "Halifax" about some pscychology expert, that is pretty good too. That is, though, only the second Aussie show that I have ever enjoyed. They are usually quite disturbed and wacko I think. The other was "Water Rats" and I was really sorry to see that one end.

5660. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 11:59:03 AM

GJ:

I'd forgotten you were from there...okay, that's two very charming and talented guys from Waco!

Kuligin:

I liked "Due South" because of the writing; it's rather light entertainment but very witty and easy to like. Let me know your reaction to it!

5661. KuligintheHooligan - 3/13/2000 12:11:02 PM

Judith, if I watch it, I will let you know what I think.

Did the show play on one of the major American networks, or is it a cable show or a Canadian show?

Hey, it just occurred to me, another show I really like is from Showtime, but the name escapes me. It is about a doctor working at a racetrack. One of the Caradine brothers plays the lead. That show is pretty enjoyable too.

5662. OhioSTOPAS - 3/13/2000 12:17:39 PM

Judith: I had no regrets about getting the second question wrong, since the winner would have almost certainly beaten me on time. My "If only I had . . ." second-guessing is for the first question (the 4 woman authors), where I made an educated guess of "DCBA", just missing the correct "DCAB". On that one, I know I had my answer in well before the winner's time (which was over 7 seconds).

But if I had gotten into the chair, I too would have been stumped by the "Fata Morgana" question at $32,000.

5663. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 12:20:49 PM

I knew the Fata Morgana question but it would have done me no good because I would have flipped the O'Connor/ Welty answer.

5664. vonKreedon - 3/13/2000 12:29:13 PM

I am in serious need for a synopsis of last weeks NYPD; what is the deal on Danny? Please...

5665. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 12:31:45 PM

Go to www.mightybigTV.com....they have write-ups of all the shows.

Or wait for CalGal to drop in. :-)

5666. CalGal - 3/13/2000 12:33:25 PM

I fell asleep. I've subscribed to mightybigtv, but the synopsys isn't there yet.

5667. CalGal - 3/13/2000 12:34:57 PM

And Ohio, I fell asleep last night, too, so I missed your 15 seconds of glory! The downside of insomnia (and there are many) is that when the bill is presented for payment, ya gotta come up with the money right then.

5668. janjon - 3/13/2000 12:40:26 PM

Danny will give even more evidence of being burdened with a childhood beyond belief that has left him susceptible to becoming unhinged now as a mature adult, with increasing concerns by those who now know him somewhat as working colleagues and increasingly as almost-friends. Since Danny is a sweetie, these concerns will be about his possibly offing himself (although his beating up of the child molester recently was ominous). (I for one thought the hamburger eating scene was sacchyrine beyond belief. I almost wanted him to choke, to see if his colleague-friend would know how to do the Heimlich on him.) All of this will not be resolved this season, of course. But, all sorts of horrible clues and speculations (some spoken, but more in the worried looks of the Sipowitz and female detective-whose-name-I-forget) as to what is going on will continue to build, through May.

I don't like the show.

5669. CalGal - 3/13/2000 12:53:01 PM

BTW, on a whim I got digital cable last night. My blessed son is annoyed that I didn't get it for his room, so he'll have to suffer with analog. Never mind that he's getting the 27" console TV in his room, as soon as I rearrange the furniture. He's just so deprived.

Anyway, I was surprised at how affordable it is. It will only be $16/month more for digital, including all the gazillion HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, and Starz channels. And that's for two TVs.

It is also proof that, every so often, advertising works. They were having a digital cable preview and the clarity impressed me.

5670. OhioSTOPAS - 3/13/2000 1:05:35 PM

Cal: Both "fifteen seconds" and "glory" over-estimate my appearance!

Wait 'til next time, when I make it to the big chair.

5671. AceofSpades - 3/13/2000 3:13:15 PM

Eyes Wide Shut 4 out of 5 Stars

Maybe it's because I was expecting this to be god-awful (hype puts me off), maybe it's because I just like Kubrick. But this movie surprised me and excited me (no, not in *that* way; there's really no sex in it, and the brief snippets of sex that are in it isn't sexy, but aren't meant to be).

Everyone knows the plot. I'll just make a couple of comments:

Tom Cruise is perfect for the film. This is a film that demands an amiable Everyman, and Cruise fits the bill perfectly. Had the protagonist been the skeezoids Michael Douglas or Harvey Keitel, I would have been put off. But Tom Cruise is such a likeable, "normal" guy it's quite easy to follow him through his sexual odyssey. His best performance to date. Perhaps is only truly *good* performance.

The "Sex Cult Conspiracy" is well-done. Oh, you know what you're going to be seeing in advance. Masks, cloaks, debauchery, semi-Satanic rituals. What makes this Sex Cult work is how well done it is. The masks are frightening. The Satanic singing -- done in some deep sythesized voice in no language Man has ever spoken -- is spooky and convincing and effective.

5672. AceofSpades - 3/13/2000 3:20:58 PM

There are two ways to handle this material: As a straight thriller, in which case there'd be a resolution but it would be rather trite. The other way to do it is is in the spirit of magical realism, a bit like Crying of Lot 49. The film goes the second route, of course. So don't expect a quite satisfying conclusion with lots of anwsers. (Suprisingly, some answers *are* provided, but you don't know whether those answers are true or false. I was actually surprised that Kubrick didn't just leave the audience hanging; and I actually think perhaps the film would have worked better (though in a cliched way) had the Mysteries been left entirely unsolved.)

Bottom line: Do not expect answers. Do not expect to be satisfied with the answers provided. And you should be fine.

As to everything else: Kubrick has Kidman talking -- so --slowly -- you -- will -- pull -- out -- your -- hair in the early going, which I suppose is meant to achieve a dream-like mood, but it also causes the film a longish time to "get going." But still, I had no problems with the early scenes -- I was interested enough to keep watching. And I'm a retard with a very short attention span.

Every scene is a mini-movie. Lots of good performances, lots of interesting stuff.

In final analysis, this film must be labeled "Very Self-Indulgent," but Kubrick's instincts are quite sharp and even his self-indulgence is quite entertaining. There are hints -- but only hints -- of the profound; and I suppose that's really all one can expect from a film.

5673. PsychProf - 3/13/2000 3:24:19 PM

Ace...interesting review.

5674. dwightlayman - 3/13/2000 3:47:06 PM

Got to side w/ Judith on the Sopranos. It was clearly Carmela's best episode of the year. Her pickings have been pretty slim this year. It was totally in character.

I'm just glad those yutzes are off the show, The comic relief thing was getting old.

5675. TabouliJones - 3/13/2000 5:13:20 PM

Ace,

Interesting review of Eyes Wide Shut. I am also on record praising Cruise's performance, which probably makes you and I the only two people to agree on this point. Most people thought Cruise brought nothing to the role but a pretty face, but I agree with you that he brings a low key complexity to the role. Cruise's best scene is the scene in the taxi, when he is just getting caught up in all of the intrigue, and becoming precociously smug about his ability to negotiate the evening's intrigue. He certainly earns kudos for that and other scenes throughout the movie.

Your comparison with The Crying of Lot 49 is also interesting, as I kept thinking of Pynchon throughout the movie. In many respects, I read Eyes Wide Shut as a meditation on paranoia in the Pynchonian sense of a world that is ominously conspiring around the protagonist while also revealing its lack of centre -- which sounds pretentious, of course; but fuck it, I slugged through Gravity's Rainbow and deserve to make such statements dammit.

5676. wonkers2 - 3/13/2000 5:18:43 PM

Anybody know what happened to the new version of Lolita? Are we ever going to get to see it?

5677. TabouliJones - 3/13/2000 5:21:46 PM

I think the new version of Lolita is available on video. I have heard that the director does a truly inept job handling the material.

5678. AceofSpades - 3/13/2000 5:24:48 PM

Tabouli:

Lot 49 just occurred to me as an example of a straight drama with the *trappings* of a thriller/mystery. Since it's not really a thriller/mystery, it cannot have a "bad guy" and the mystery can never be completely unspooled.

So, going into the movie, you *know* there will be no traditional resolution.

Still, I half-expected Tom Cruise to buy a gun and go out shooting (only to be killed, of course; he couldn't survive in a movie like this). I didn't know where the movie was heading, which was nice for a change.

There are various odd choices Kubrick made. After the party, Tom Cruise is calling up/calling on various women who MIGHT have been the Naked Woman who warns him to leave the orgy. But right before he does all this, Kubrick inserts another flash-memory of Kidman fucking the Naval Officer --which makes you think he's calling on these women just to get laid. Which he isn't.

He's trying to find the Mysterious Naked Woman and make sure she's not dead, of course. But I didn't realize that for some time; I thought he had more or less forgotten about the party and was just trying to get his dick wet.

5679. AceofSpades - 3/13/2000 5:27:09 PM

Kubrick should have inserted a flashback of the Mysterious Naked Woman issuing a warning to clarify Cruise's motivation. The shot of Kidman was just confusing.

5680. TabouliJones - 3/13/2000 5:43:10 PM

Ace,

I had read the book beforehand, so I was expecting a more hypnotic and explicitly Freudian treatment. However, I think that Kubrick was wise to wrap the tale in the guise of thriller.

The strange cloices you mention are probably inspired by the book, which insistently returns to the Freudian connection between sex and death. Cruise wanted to get laid, but was also concerned that a woman had apparently been murdered because of his meddling. The inference that Kubrick perhaps wanted the audience to draw was that Cruise was confused as to whether his nagging libido was just a sign of conventional horniness or was, somehow, triggered (or intensified)by the dark goings on around him -- including the aura of death hanging over the evening. In the book, the scene in which Doctor Bill visits the daughter of his recently dead patient, only to be subjected to her procalamtions of lust for him, triggers the whole eros/thanatos thing as a major theme.

5681. AceofSpades - 3/13/2000 5:49:26 PM

The sex/death thing was sufficiently explicit. The Black-Clad, masked Orgyists were quite plainly metaphoric for death and AIDS, especially. Anonymous sex, death, bringing death close to your own family by sleeping with a stranger... If anyone missed the connection, Domino's (the whore's) positive HIV test made it explicit enough.

But that doesn't speak to Cruise's motivation. As I said, he wasn't trying to get laid by calling up/calling on the various women in his life. (Well, I'm sure he would have fucked them; he was very willing.) He was trying to find out who the Mysterious Woman was.

The cut to Kidman being fucked makes no sense, therefore. Kidman's fantasy-affair was the reason Tom Cruise went out to get laid initially. But after the Orgy and the various death threats, he was trying to find out if Nick and the Mysterious Woman were still alive.

So it made no sense to flash Kidman fucking. That was his OLD motivation.

5682. TabouliJones - 3/13/2000 5:58:19 PM

Well I think that the flashback to his wife fucking the naval officer were inserted because Kidman's confession was what set Cruise in motion, in terms of looking for nooky and getting himself involved in situations that he otherwise would have avoided like the plague. By constantly referring to this flashback Kubrick was maybe trying to get the audience to think about Cruise's deeper motivations and whatever subconscious goings on had taken hold of his noggin. Your approach, a flashback to the woman warning him to skee-dattle, would also have been appropriate, given his explicit concerns for her well being. Perhaps, it would have been cool to juxtapose the Kidman flashback with the one you suggest -- putting Doctor Bill's conscious and sub-conscious more explicitly at odds with one another.

5683. AceofSpades - 3/13/2000 6:00:58 PM

Like I said, it was confusing. I thought perhaps the movie was "just forgetting about the Orgy" and moving on to further sexual journeys. I thought Cruise a bit blase, forgetting about the endangered Nick and Woman and just moving on to get laid.

I didn't realize that Cruise was actually following up on the Orgy until he sought out Nick or went to The House (whichever came first).

5684. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 6:02:38 PM

Thanks, DwightL and welcome to the Mote, if you're new here.

5685. stostosto - 3/13/2000 6:07:07 PM

I saw "Notting Hill" yesterday, and I thoroughly and unadulteratedly enjoyed it. Mein Gott, Julia Roberts is the sweetest thing. She is way too skinny for my taste, but my, am I willing to broaden my taste. (I actually always am when it comes to women. Often to my own surprise...).

Maybe I was just in a chuckling mood, but I laughed incessantly and unstoppably at even the most conspicuosly calculated of the cracks.

It was just a comedy with a good, charming mood. Or else I am getting old...

5686. TabouliJones - 3/13/2000 6:09:10 PM

Your right. It was all confusing, and getting a handle on Doctor Bill's motivations would probably be impossible -- but, like you suggested earlier, this ambiguity is what makes the movie so interesting.

I should take off now. School beckons.

P.S. Ace, did you see the recent article in the New Yorker about George Meyer, the script doctor responsible for many of the funniest jokes in The Simpsons? I'm pretty sure it is the kind of thing you would love. It is very insightful on the art of good comedy writing.

5687. marshame - 3/13/2000 6:17:27 PM

Calgal

The remote control for digital cable is divine. Wait'll you see all the things you can do just off the menu button. It does everything but pop the popcorn.

5688. Toenails - 3/13/2000 6:18:24 PM

Yes, Julia is so damned appealing that there ought to be a law against it.

5689. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 6:22:39 PM

Toenails:

I agree...there ought to be a law against Julia Roberts.

5690. marshame - 3/13/2000 6:23:42 PM

stostosto

I want to like Hugh Grant, really I do. But he makes it practically impossible, the way he ALWAYS plays that same fumbling, bumbling teddibly British fop.

5691. CalGal - 3/13/2000 6:45:29 PM

Sto,

I am on record as saying that Notting Hill is the best romantic comedy of the last several years, and I like Roberts quite a bit.

The DVD audio commentary is done by the writer, director, and producer. One of the things they mention is that Roberts was particularly impressed with the work done by the chubby-cheeked stockbroker. I thought so too.

5692. CalGal - 3/13/2000 6:46:26 PM

Marsha,

I've gotten far too many toys lately--what with my DVD, Netflix, and digital cable, all I can think is: man, I need a new PC!

5693. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 6:49:12 PM

So who was the chubby cheeked stock broker, since I will never see the film...

5694. CalGal - 3/13/2000 6:59:36 PM

No one whose name you'd recognize. And I'm surprised you won't see it. It's very good.

5695. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2000 7:03:35 PM

I'd rather have a root canal than sit through a movie with Roberts. The only one I like in that family is Eric.

5696. CalGal - 3/13/2000 7:04:56 PM

Oh, man. I can only think of one movie I liked Roberts in--the one where he offed himself. Of course, that had Bruce Davison in it, who I just love.

5697. CalGal - 3/13/2000 7:09:31 PM

However, the chubby-cheeked guy, per your request:

Hugh Bonneville

5698. Indiana Jones - 3/13/2000 7:09:40 PM

Ace (5671): I thought Cruise was pretty good in his early role as the psycho cadet in "Taps," with Timothy Hutton. Well, maybe not that good, but at least different...and chunky. (Like when you get tired of the same old peanut butter.)

CalGal (5631): My problems with the "brotherly love" element and the ending are distinct. The "brotherly love" o.d. is caused by too many setpiece speeches where you just think "this is the director/screen writer talking"--most of them by Frederic March. Like I said, Serling did it a lot in the Twilight Zone series, even though he always had the final voice-over say-so anyway.

As for the ending, I understood it was flat to show that decency usually prevails in a nondramatic, plodding way, but I wanted more of a payoff. Hell, Lancaster should have at least shot himself. For crying out loud, the only person who died in the whole flipping movie might have just been the victim of your typical 1960s Spanish air traffic controller.

5699. CalGal - 3/13/2000 7:11:45 PM

Indy,

I see what you're saying, but I like the fact that they all pretty much run like rats, rather than take a brave stand.

I also liked Cruise in Taps--it was also Sean Penn's first movie. Weird flick, though.

5700. CalGal - 3/13/2000 7:12:18 PM

And have you seen Failsafe yet?

5701. stostosto - 3/14/2000 6:50:43 AM

This bloke was a hit in "Notting Hill":

Rhys Ifans

5702. Dantheman - 3/14/2000 10:25:38 AM

A remarkably bad idea -- The Nation's Largest Neighborhood Newspaper wants to print Oscar winners in advance

5703. JudithAtHome - 3/14/2000 10:40:52 AM

They are letting their skills for anointing the next President go to their heads.

5704. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 10:44:42 AM

From what I have read elsewhere, the WSJ has denied conducting any such poll. Evidently, what is happening is that someone is polling Academy members *claiming* to be a reporter for the WSJ. The Academy has instructed its members to not cooperate, and evidently some members are just lying to the pollsters.

5705. theDiva - 3/14/2000 10:45:25 AM

What an extraordinarily cheezy thing to do. And entirely plausible.

5706. CalGal - 3/14/2000 10:46:17 AM

Toy check.

So it's a hoax? Makes sense. I couldn't believe the WSJ could be so silly. And shame on Ebert for not checking with them, first.

5707. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 10:53:11 AM

The sad part is that the WSJ's denial is almost a week old. Ebert is way behind in his entertainment news.

5708. CalGal - 3/14/2000 10:56:59 AM

Well, he's never been a journalist--that was always Siskel's gig.

5709. JudithAtHome - 3/14/2000 11:38:55 AM

Anyone watch Freaks and Geeks last night? (Well, no one was using the thread, anyhow....)

5710. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 11:39:01 AM

Oh, he is a journalist, just not a good one. Through his mailbag, and other columns, he has partially become an editorial writer on the subject of movies. He was also initially trained in journalism, I believe, getting his start as a sports reporter. Unfortunately, he frequently doesn't bother to check his sources, and often just repeats incorrect gossip to a national audience. This isn't the first time this has happened (I recall him recently incorrectly reporting that all existing prints of Nashville had been destroyed, causing a few heart attacks among Altman fans).

5711. glendajean - 3/14/2000 11:47:26 AM

I've rented Nashville twice, looking forward to seeing it. And I fell asleep both times. As I recall, the sound on the tape was atrocious. Maybe that's a movie that should be seen in a theater or .... on DVD.

5712. JudithAtHome - 3/14/2000 11:50:26 AM

The sound in the movie is pretty bad...just a shade above FBI surveillance tapes, as I recall.

5713. CalGal - 3/14/2000 12:00:24 PM

Rask,

I was speaking of his emotional core, the weft and woof of his soul. You know, the California kind of "be".

</irony>

Siskel was a true journalist, in calling as well as occupation. Ebert's an analyst; they aren't nearly as interested in pesky little things like facts.

Meaning that the Suntimes should check his rants more carefully.

5714. Cellar Door - 3/14/2000 12:04:14 PM

Interesting take on "EWS," Ace. Maybe you had the advantage of knowing in advance about everyone's disappointment that it wasn't The Greatest Sex Story Ever Told, but as you've clearly seen Kubrick had no intention of making such a film.

Still, I don't believe the "resolution" is all that neat. There is no reason in the world to believe one word of what Sydney Pollack tells Cruise. It's completely self-serving, and a second glance at the movie shows that any number of threads are left untied. Moreover, Dark Hints Abound. Hints of what? Almost anything. That's what the movie conveys thoroughout its length suggestion.

One example:

Is the costume-seller really upsets with Leelee Sobieski cavorting with those middle-aged me, or was this an act staged for Cruise's benefit? We'll never know.

5715. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 12:13:35 PM

"Is the costume-seller really upsets with Leelee Sobieski cavorting with those middle-aged me, or was this an act staged for Cruise's benefit? We'll never know."

Considering the way the owner "offers" her to Cruise, I thought it was pretty clear that the earlier scene was a variant on a classic con game (I forget the name, but basically, a husband arranges to find his wife in the arms of a stranger, and then extorts money from the stranger).

5716. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 12:34:30 PM

Just in case Cal or Cellar is interested in this...

It's Always Fair Weather

5717. CalGal - 3/14/2000 12:41:42 PM

I'm not big on movie memorabilia, but when the hell is the DVD coming out??

Did you see I got digital cable? I will finally get TCM!!!!

5718. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 12:43:53 PM

The cable companies don't offer digital cable in my area. And I partially subscribe to satellite service on general principle.

5719. CalGal - 3/14/2000 12:44:42 PM

I live in an apartment; I don't think satellite is an option. Besides, don't you fake it with an address? Thief.

Albeit a principled one, I'm sure.

5720. TabouliJones - 3/14/2000 12:45:34 PM

Any possible closure in EWS (at least on an emotional/psychological level) is killed by Kidman's last line: "Well, you know what we have to do now, don't you . . . Fuck." Which was an incredible and fitting way to end the movie, imo.

5721. marshame - 3/14/2000 12:45:58 PM

CD

"cavorting with those middle-aged me"

oh, what an interesting Freudian typo!

5722. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 12:49:56 PM

"I live in an apartment; I don't think satellite is an option. Besides, don't you fake it with an address? Thief."

All the fake address does is get me national network channels. No thievery, just a slightly illegal (an winked-at, by the satellite company) work around to a stupid telecommunications law.

5723. CalGal - 3/14/2000 12:55:05 PM

Rask,

Heavens, I was teasing. Seriously, why is satellite a "principled" choice?

5724. theDiva - 3/14/2000 12:58:35 PM

wow, some of those one sheets are pricey!

Wonder what my 'Revenge of the Jedi' one-sheet would garner?

5725. JudithAtHome - 3/14/2000 1:00:06 PM

Diva:

Sneers? At least until it's aged a bit?

5726. theDiva - 3/14/2000 1:01:16 PM

No, this is from before the picture was released originally. And it's got the original working title on it.

5727. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 1:05:17 PM

"Heavens, I was teasing. Seriously, why is satellite a "principled" choice?"

Because cable companies are evil, and I think it is unprincipled to give money to the cause of evil if one can get TCM for a similar price from another vendor. Of course, if it is your only option, sleeping with Satan is better than nothing.

5728. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 1:07:32 PM

"Wonder what my 'Revenge of the Jedi' one-sheet would garner?"

A good deal indeed. If it is in excellent condition, and truly has the "revenge" title, I would bet somewhere at least in the upper hundreds. I have a vague recollection of seeing an Ebay auction for one that was up to $700 or so, and the auction wasn't completed.

5729. JudithAtHome - 3/14/2000 1:07:51 PM

Deev:

That sounds like a winner...ever had it appraised? You might be surprised; look what people have paid for mislabeled Beanie Babies! There's no accounting for what is important to people.

5730. theDiva - 3/14/2000 1:09:06 PM

Seriously? Damn.

It's in mint condition. I've never hung it or anything.

5731. theDiva - 3/14/2000 1:10:28 PM

Funny thing is, I rescued it from the trash at work. A pal worked in the promo department and was cleaning out her office. Can you imagine? 'They just retitled this frickin' picture and now I gotta get rid of all this stuff!'

5732. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 1:11:05 PM

Strike that last post. I doubt it is worth much. In fact, it is likely to decline in value. I guess I coould do you a favor and take it off your hands for $20 or so.

5733. theDiva - 3/14/2000 1:11:32 PM

rrrrrriiiiiiiiiight.

5734. LadyChaos - 3/14/2000 1:12:46 PM

Have I said that SNL is funny, again? Well, SNL is funny, again. Last Saturday's sketch with the frat boys and the lesbians had me rolling on the floor. And the "Book Talk" sketch was pretty damn hilarious, too.

5735. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 1:15:01 PM

Seriously, it is one of those gems - a rare item from a film with a huge fan base. The re-titled posters sell for over $100, and I have seen some Star Wars related posters sell for over $1000.

5736. theDiva - 3/14/2000 1:17:06 PM

Dang. I've got to go through my old one sheets, I've got dozens. There's one I will not sell, for sure.....Stop Making Sense, signed by David Byrne.

5737. Raskolnikov - 3/14/2000 1:17:55 PM

Poster collecting is something I have gotten into over the past year or so. I don't have the budget to shell out for any older posters, so I have been settling for more recent releases - films that I liked with great poster art -Out of Sight, Iron Giant, Dark City, Pi, Rocketeer, etc.

The frames end up costing more than the posters.

5738. theDiva - 3/14/2000 1:19:18 PM

I believe it. Gracie's got a gorgeous Mulan poster over her bed....all blacks and reds, Mulan on a horse. Very, very nice.

5739. Jenerator - 3/14/2000 2:05:30 PM

I heard that The Rock (hubba, hubba) is hosting next weekend's SNL. Marsha, if you're out there, please tape it.

5740. AceofSpades - 3/14/2000 6:32:57 PM

Cellar:

On EWS, I think you've mistaken my position. I certainly don't think the film had much of a "resolution" at all. And of course, nothing SP says at the end can quite be trusted (though it would be very easy to discover if Nick was, in fact, safe back home in Seattle or not; I assume no one would lie about something which could be so easily confirmed/contradicted).

All I'm saying is -- given that I expected NO questions answered whatsoever -- I was suprised to see two minor mysteries solved: The identities of the Mysterious Naked Woman and the Man in the Broad Mask.

Now that I think about it, Kubrick was quite smart to introduce these two trivial "mysteries" so that there could be *some* questions answered. The big questions aren't answered -- who are these people, did the girl really OD, did any of this even happen at all, or was it all just some kind of metaphor or dream -- but two minor questions are, which leads to a *somewhat* satisfactory pay off.

In a film like this, of course, you can't answer the big questions about the mystery. Had this been a thriller, we would have been introduced to the nefarious sex-addict Senator Burton Shames in the first twenty minutes, and of course he would turn out to be the leader of the Secret Sex Society, and of course Tom Cruise would dispose of him by tossing him from the top of the Chrysler Building. "Very Down to Earth," Tom Cruise would quip.

But it's not that kind of movie, so no such resolution is coming. If you're forearmed with this knowledge, you can be (as I was) moderately content just to learn who the Mysterious Naked Woman was.

5741. AceofSpades - 3/14/2000 6:49:52 PM

Addendum: And what SP tells Cruise is self-contradictory anyway.

1) He tells Cruise "you don't understand the kind of danger you were in" and "If I told you these people's names -- I'm not going to tell you there names -- you wouldn't sleep to well."

2) He tries to reassure Cruise that no one was hurt during the evening.

Well, either these ARE the kinds of people who'd kill to protect their secret -- in which case 1 is true but 2 seems false -- or else Cruise really never had anything to worry about -- in which case 1 is false but 2 is more likely.

I was expecting Cruise to ask SP "Well, which is it, Dude? Was it all a 'charade' or am I/was I really in danger? It can't be both simultaneously." But then again, this isn't that kind of movie. The Secret Sex Society cannot be taken quite literally (as it would in a real thriller) so literal explanations regarding it seem out of place.

5742. 109109 - 3/15/2000 9:17:39 AM

The Bone Collector, in 10 brief points.

1. The script is execrable, an amalgamation of every "thriller" contrivance of the past 10 years;

2. Casting Angelina Jolie as an NYPD uniform cop is akin to casting Ruth Buzzie as the lead in The Jeri Hall Story. Those lips, those cheekbones, that gun! The choice was so inept that the scriptwriter actually wrote in the fact that she is an ex-model;

3. Jolie's character should set the teeth of all modern womanhood on edge. When she cries, all the men pat her on the back and tell her she is "terrific" (in fact, Mike McGlone and Denzel Washington actually call her "terrific" within 10 minutes of each other). And she bucks up with a pretty smile. When she is upset, she
walks off the job, although she is a beat cop. And the men drop by to see if she is "all right." For some reason, and I am guessing "those lips, those cheekbones!" the men don't say, "Hey. Where are you going, you limp hump?";

4. Why doesn't Queen Latifah get more roles? She's so . . . . together.

5. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of movies and a brain stem will have this figured out in a jif. If you don't, however, don't feel bad. You may just have nodded off. But there is also a good chance you are stupid.

6. But no one could predict the motivation of the "Bone Collector." It is just too ridiculous.

7. New York City is very spooky in this film. It gave me that same creepy, flesh crawl I felt in "Ghostbusters II."

8. Note to casting. With the death of J.T. Walsh, vindictive, unimaginative and bureaucratic cop roles are now offered first to Michael Rooker.

9. If you want a better "rookie cop" flick, I recommend "The Rookie" with Charlie Sheen, which at least sports Clint Eastwood and Sonia Braga.

10. Why doesn't Ed O'Neill get more roles? He's so . . . . together.

5743. JudithAtHome - 3/15/2000 9:21:29 AM

Loved the tearing phone book trick on NYPDBlue last night...I know it's corny but it was still impressive.

5744. Dantheman - 3/15/2000 9:31:26 AM

Assuming Sports Night ends at the end of the month, as rumored, they certainly want to end up with a bang. They have set up some interesting subplots to conclude with, and I will be sorry to see this series go.

5745. Cellar Door - 3/15/2000 9:39:28 AM

This one's for Niner

5746. JudithAtHome - 3/15/2000 9:42:35 AM

Dan:

I hope they ship Dana off to a spa for a long needed rest...

Have you heard that HBO might take over the show if ABC drops it? That would prove interesting.

I think Dan and Casey are headed for one huge meltdown. Last night, when Casey used the words "my show", I flinched...

5747. 109109 - 3/15/2000 9:43:22 AM

Son of a bitch!

How can there be a God if he gives CellarDoor access to these hotties, and I'm relegated to fat Fanny at the Suds n' Bowl?

5748. Cellar Door - 3/15/2000 9:47:45 AM

Points taken, Ace. But as regards the identities of the Mysterious Naked Woman and the Man in the Broad Mask, I'm not entirely satisfied that they were revealed. This in turn leads into the contradictory nature of SP's statements. I believe I mentioned way back when "EWS" was first released, this sort of character is quite traditional in the films of Jacques Rivette (a writer-director I doubt you -- or anyone else in The Mote -- is all that familiar with), particularly in his "Paris Belongs to Us," and "Out One." Ominous forebodings of Doom are evoked. Circles and arrows are drawn around specified parties. And then in the last reel we're told that our suspicions are unfounded. Do we accept the "simple explanation" or not? Rivette is , of course, an "art film" director. Kubrick is a confector of what can only be called "art blockbusters." Sometimes the public is willing to follow him. Sometimes not. Still, I have a feeling that "EWS" will be "rediscovered" in time.

5749. Dantheman - 3/15/2000 9:47:50 AM

Juditha,
I hadn't heard that, but I'd like to see it, even though I don't spring for any of the premium channels. Maybe when we buy a new house, we'll spring for cable internet and get digital cable with it.

As for Dan and Casey, that looks good (and it's about time -- Dan's been in a long funk, and this may be enough to shake him out of it). I think the Jeremy/Natalie/Jenny-the-porn-star dynamic also looks likely to blow up.

5750. Cellar Door - 3/15/2000 9:49:15 AM

Suffer, Niner, Suffer!

There's more on view in "Ehrensteinland," today. Check the "Update" page before proceeding.

5751. 109109 - 3/15/2000 9:51:57 AM

Thanks. I shall.

5752. marshame - 3/15/2000 12:26:36 PM

5739. Jenerator - 3/14/00 1:05:30 PM
I heard that The Rock (hubba, hubba) is hosting next weekend's
SNL. Marsha, if you're out there, please tape it.

Jen, I hate to break it to you, but Rock Hudson died years ago! Silly! (Besides, I didn't think he was your type.)

5753. Jenerator - 3/15/2000 12:45:00 PM

Not that Rock, silly. THIS Rock

5754. marshame - 3/15/2000 12:49:58 PM

It doesn't load, dahlink.

5755. Jenerator - 3/15/2000 12:59:45 PM

5756. JudithAtHome - 3/15/2000 1:02:28 PM

Does his name refer to what's between his ears?:-)

5757. theDiva - 3/15/2000 1:04:10 PM

who is he?

5758. JudithAtHome - 3/15/2000 1:07:43 PM

A wrestler from the WWF...or so I've heard.

5759. theDiva - 3/15/2000 1:09:48 PM

oh. Watch that much, do you, Judith? (heehee)

5760. JudithAtHome - 3/15/2000 1:11:00 PM

Oh yeah, you bet! I pop open a bag of pork rinds and take the phone off the hook.

5761. marshame - 3/15/2000 1:12:32 PM

What's that in his left hand? It looks like a paperback book entitled "Wah wah." Or maybe, he's holding his own cue cards to his lyrics.

5762. Jenerator - 3/15/2000 1:20:15 PM

", Dwayne was attending the University of Miami in Florida. He was a star defensive lineman for the Hurricanes, contributing greatly to the team's National Championships in 1989 and 1991. Dwayne graduated with a degree in Criminology. Dwayne had aspirations of working for the Secret Service out of college, but the sports-entertainment industry took hold of him. Johnson weighed all his options, eventually deciding that the Secret Service's risks were not quite worth its rewards. It was the world of sports-entertainment, and more specifically the World Wrestling Federation, that was calling The Rock to its ranks."

5763. theDiva - 3/15/2000 1:22:21 PM

Dwayne?

5764. Jenerator - 3/15/2000 1:26:20 PM

We all have to start somewhere.

5765. theDiva - 3/15/2000 1:27:33 PM

Actually, he isn't bad looking, in a hulking, thick necked sort of way.

5766. CalGal - 3/15/2000 2:01:13 PM

Judith,

I thought the NYPD Blue ep last night was the best of the year. Nice to see Fancy getting work, and Sipowicz's gestures to Baldwin were hysterical.

I, too, was much impressed by the phone book.

5767. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 2:12:58 PM

"But as regards the identities of the Mysterious Naked Woman and the Man in the Broad Mask, I'm not entirely satisfied that they were revealed."

Hunh? You're overthinking or simply avoiding the obvious. MNW was Mandy, MitBM was Pollack.

It makes no sense for Pollack to CLAIM the MNW was the OD girl falsely. 1, that would be too much of a coincidence, 2, he's trying to convince Cruise to back off.

And of course MitBM was Pollack. Not the Head Orgyist in Red, but the man who nods down to cruise from a balcony, and ALSO speaks briefly (MOS) with the Mysterious Naked Woman.

One can postulate that there were other people behind these masks because, of course, you don't see their faces and are free postulate whatever you wish, but the clear implication/logic of the film is that they were exactly who we think they were. There's no reason (other than overthink) to believe they were anyone else.

5768. CalGal - 3/15/2000 2:19:36 PM

You know, all this talk of Pollack makes me wanna see the damn movie.

5769. CalGal - 3/15/2000 2:22:37 PM

And I saw the Sopranos ep. What an evening the guy had! Bond with his son, kill a guy, have a nice steak dinner with your underling, go home, have the once a year sex with the wife. All in a day's work for our Tony.

Scene with the son was great, though. And I love Pauli. That psychic was a kick!

5770. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 2:24:14 PM

As for your prediction EWS will rise in critical estimation:

Perhaps. But you know -- Many reviews of the film were quite positive. Ebert, for example, gave it 3 1/2 stars. Hard to rise much higher than that.

I just sampled several reviews (wanting to see what everybody thought) and I found that most reviewers called it masterful but flawed. I agree with that. Some called it "icy." I disagree with that. Just because no one's screaming at each other doesn't make a film "icy." And of course some critics didn't like it, or downright hated it, which is to be expected, especially when we're talking Kubrick.

So-- The overall critical opinion isn't likely to change much. What about the public's?

Well, I don't know what the public's opinion is now. But a very small number of people will rent/buy a major new release (say a DVD, with Director's Narrative, minus the CGI bowlderizing) that has any chance of seriously changing critical opinion. So the film might be rediscoverd/discovered for the first time by hard-core, high-end cineastes, but I don't know if that will change public opinion.

Then again, hard-core high-end cineastes are the "public" we're really talking about, ay?

It comes down to one thing, which you mentioned: Anyone who went in expecting the Best Fucking Movie Ever Shot on Film came out disappointed. If you went in with lower expectations (I think FMJ is vastly overrated, for example; GREAT *parts*, but the overall film is on the weak side, actually being two entirely distinct mini-movies with nothing in common except Matthew Modine), you probably enjoyed EWS a bit more.

5771. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 2:39:01 PM

The public's opinion of it is pretty low. The Cinemescore rating was either a B- or a C, I forget which.

Of course, the public got mugged. They were expecting a sexy, albeit arty, thriller starring Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. They got a film that was rarely sexy, wasn't thrilling at all, and contained an incredibly annoying piano score.

My problem with the film is that I generally found it uninteresting. I passed the time contemplating symbolism, recurring images, shot composition and the like, simply because there was nothing better to do, but I didn't find that any of it improved the film much for me.

5772. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 2:44:14 PM

"Of course, the public got mugged."

Yes, but the morons who went in thinking they'd see Tom Cruise shagging Nicole Kidman DESERVED to get mugged. I don't know why they'd want to see that in the first place. If you want to see people fuck, go rent a porno. Have the courage of your convictions.

There were so many rumors about this alleged "sex scene" it seems quite possible the studio or Kubrick or Cruise/Kidman disseminated some of them to drum up mass interest. But I don't begrudge them that. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that NO, Tom "Mr. Clean" Cruise is NOT going to fuck his WIFE on fucking camera. And if you went in with that hope, you deserve to be fleeced.

"They were expecting a sexy, albeit arty, thriller starring Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman."

Not sexy, but "thrilling." Not viscerally thrilling like Die Hard, but intellectually thrilling. I loved every damn scene.

"They got a film that was rarely sexy, wasn't thrilling at all, and contained an incredibly annoying piano score."

I dig that piano, personally.

5773. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 2:52:11 PM

Incidentally, "sex" in non-X rated movies generally looks embarassing, fake, and silly. Kubrick was smart to show very little actual sex; he would have been laughed out of the theaters.

The Orgy scene wasn't good because of the sex -- any moron can pay women to fondle each other's boobies. It was good because of the music, the costumes, the masks, and the feeling of dread and real danger.

Truly "sexy," hot non-porno scenes are always sexy FOREPLAY and talking about sex and such. Not the actual sex itself; that always looks staged.

5774. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 3:02:03 PM

I enjoyed EWS immensely for many of the same reasons noted by Ace. I loved the minimalist piano score. It's more impressive that a composer could elicit such a sense of emotional desolation by repeating a single note than by way of a full orchestral score. The choreography at the beginning of the orgy sequence was fascinating and beautifully executed. I also particularly liked the cinematography. The choice of film stock and processing gave it an unusually grainy look which caused foreground and background almost dissolve into each other. But I'm not sure how well that particular aspect will come across on the television screen.

Kubrick's operatic sense of editorial pacing is particularly uncompromising in this film, much like the pace in 2001. I can understand why most people would get impatient with it, but I personally couldn't think of a single frame that I would want to cut.

5775. marshame - 3/15/2000 3:08:37 PM

Rasko
re EWS

"an incredibly annoying piano score."

My sentiments exactly! Except that I would add that it was written by an incredibily annoying four year old who's mother won't make him move away from the piano!!!

5776. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 3:10:25 PM

Marshame:

I'm guessing you don't like the score of "Halloween," either.

5777. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 3:12:19 PM

"Not sexy, but "thrilling." Not viscerally thrilling like Die Hard, but intellectually thrilling. I loved every damn scene."

I thought it was pretty intellectually tedious. Damned few movies work for me on a purely intellectual level. I can't think of one off the top of my head. Generally, there either has to be something to emotionally grab me - to make me give a damn about whatever intellectual point the film is trying to make.

Kubrick has often been described as cold, but usually he got your attention through great visual compositions, humor, or through straightforward Hollywood-style suspense. EWS had none of that, IMO.

5778. marshame - 3/15/2000 3:13:07 PM

AoS
I don't remember it, but let me guess, same toon different note??

(But I did like the Jaws music... two notes is better than one!)

5779. Jenerator - 3/15/2000 3:14:09 PM

I saw EWS with Marshame, and that is one of my favorite movie memories (Message # 5775) of her - every time the same blasted note was struck, she'd look over at me with her eyes wide open conveying I'm-going-to-kill-someone-if-I-hear-that-note-one-more-time.

5780. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 3:14:18 PM

Too many filmmakers hide their lack of craft behind bombastic scores. Kubrick's use of the minimalist piano took guts from an artistic standpoint. I guess, though, that people either "got it" or they didn't.

5781. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 3:15:26 PM

The score for Halloween didn't annoy me. But that damned one-note plinking in EWS did. It is possible that if I had been similarly uninvolved in Halloween, I would have paid more attention to the score, and found it boring as well. But I seem to recall that it contains a hell of a lot more than one note, even if the many notes that are there are just repeated once per second.

5782. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 3:16:47 PM

Rask,

Well, I disagree, and I also misspoke (miswrote). The film wasn't merely "intellectually thrilling" for me. I meant it was thrilling in a more quiet, less sensational way than Die Hard.

I *did* have an emotional response to Tom Cruise's character. Had I not, I couldn't have gotten through the movie.

Marshame:

"Halloween" features similar harsh, repetitive notes. There's one bit that's especially grating (but in a good way): The "Stalking Music." Dink. Dink. Did-di-di PLINK. Dink. Dink. Did-di-di PLINK. Skree-skree-skree-skree-skree....

5783. Jenerator - 3/15/2000 3:16:52 PM

There's irony in the attemped intellectual snobbery of LC's 'getting' a one note score.

5784. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 3:17:01 PM

Oh, I *got* the point of the score. It just annoyed the hell out of me. I am sure there are conceivable artistic reasons for raking nails across a chalkboard for 2 hours as well...

5785. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 3:19:10 PM

The EWS piano was NOT one note, of course. It was a whole bunch of notes -- but each note was a single key. No chords to give the notes a more full, pleasing tone. Just one plinking key per note.

5786. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 3:21:22 PM

I could have had an emotional response to Doctor Bill if the pacing had been speeded up, the story tightened, and if Cruise had been up to the acting task assigned to him (or had Kubrick not beaten the life out of him).

5787. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 3:21:49 PM

The score worked for me on an emotional level. Nobody can paint me with "snob" brush; unlike a lot of people here, I also liked John Williams' score in Saving Private Ryan.

5788. marshame - 3/15/2000 3:26:50 PM

Theme from Eyes Wide Shut
(Can be played in any key)
Dink dink dink dink dink dink dink dink
DINK DINK DINK DINK
dink dink dink dink dink dink
dink dink dink
dinkdinkdinkdinkdinkdinkdinkdinkdinkdink
DINK! DINK! DINK! DINK!
DINK!! DINK!! DINK!! DINK!!

Okay, now I *get* it!

Hmm, I wonder what the lyrics should be...

5789. marshame - 3/15/2000 3:28:54 PM

Hey, speaking of one-note wonders, dare we forget the shower scene in Psycho?

Eee Eee Eee Eee Eee Eee Eee Eeeeeeee!

5790. marshame - 3/15/2000 3:30:03 PM

"There's irony in the attemped intellectual snobbery of LC's 'getting' a one note score."

You're smart, Jenerator!

5791. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 3:30:04 PM

The obvious comparison to EWS is 2001, which is also cold, slow, and features wooden central performances. And 2001 is one of my favorite films. The biggest differences, for me, are that 1) 2001 is an unending series of incredible visual compositions and rhythmic edits, which are emphasized by a great soundtrack; and 2) 2001 has some unbearably tense and emotional sequences, involving HAL, which anchor the film.

I'll admit that 2001 is also like a jigsaw puzzle to me, that I discover new pieces of its thematic puzzle each time I watch it, and by now I have the film pretty much figured out, even though it took a half dozen viewings. So, I'll admit that it is quite probable that I would catch a lot more in EWS if I watch it a few more times. But the thing is, the strengths of 2001 that I mentioned in the last paragraph are *why* I watched the film more than once. Little in EWS leads me to believe it's thematic content would be worth repeat viewings.

5792. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 3:30:46 PM

The shower scene wasn't 2.5 hours long.

5793. marshame - 3/15/2000 3:31:51 PM

2001 at least had Strauss!

5794. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 3:44:10 PM

Well, this is all a matter of taste and hardly worth discussing.

The plinking piano was supposed to be alienating. Grating. Monotonous.

Of course, there's "alienating" and then there's "pissing the audience off."

For me, it was alienating. It served its purpose. For others, it was annoying. Ah, well. That's art for ya.

5795. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 3:50:12 PM

If we aren't going to discuss stuff which is "just a matter of taste", we might as well shut the thread down.

5796. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 3:59:59 PM

Rask:

But once the various camps have made their positions clear, it's time to end debate. No one can persuade anybody regarding a matter of taste.

Either you like mushrooms or you don't.

5797. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 4:02:14 PM

And for what its worth, I actually believed most of what Sidney Pollack said. It made too much sense in explaining behavior in the orgy scene (the intervention by MNW was obviously staged, for instance - Pollacks tells us why and how), and a lot of it was verifiable.

5798. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 4:04:48 PM

I thought the "I am prepared to redeem him" crap was silly, trite, melodramatic and arch when I saw it; so Pollack's explanation may make some sense. Then again, costumed cultists will probably tend to act silly, trite, melodramatic and arch. That's what being a costumed cultist is all about.

And the most important part of Pollack's story is not verifiable at all.

5799. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 4:06:26 PM

"But once the various camps have made their positions clear, it's time to end debate. No one can persuade anybody regarding a matter of taste."

But you certainly realize that there is value in exploring what is behind that taste. And there are certainly more components to a film than there are to the taste of a mushroom.

For instance, I am quite curious as to what significance you saw in the film's association between sex and death. It is there, assuredly, but what is the importance of the association, aside from the type of moralizing contained in films like "Reefer Madness".

5800. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 4:13:22 PM

"For instance, I am quite curious as to what significance you saw in the film's association between sex and death. It is there, assuredly, but what is the importance of the association"

Significance? Meaning what?

Stuff like this works on a visceral level. The eros/thanatos thing is old as the hills.

I don't think it's significant or important plot-wise. Theme-wise, it's simple: Illicit sex is dangerous and many levels (there's nothing dangerous about sex between man and wife). There's disease. There's the Law. There's the risk of being discoverd.

The Secret Sex Cult is a wonderful metaphor for all this. The secrecy. The feeling of being in an exclusive club (anyone who's ever cheated, or has seduced someone else's Signifcant Other, knows, I'm guessing, the ego-trip power-fantasy of being in some naughty fraterntity of sexual players).

And, of course, the danger: By fucking around, Tom Cruise brings Death to his, and his FAMILY's, doorstep.

Is this really important? Is it profound?

Nah. But it works sub-intellectually.

5801. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 4:15:47 PM

"Then again, costumed cultists will probably tend to act silly, trite, melodramatic and arch. That's what being a costumed cultist is all about."

Not just that. We see that one of the masked men talks to her before she grabs Doctor Bill and warns him that he is in danger. Why do they talk to her if not to get her help in setting up the show?

And are we to assume that this cult has procedures set up so that an intruder is allowed to go free and talk to whomever he wants so long as someone volunteers to be killed in his place?

Yeah, it is true that this isn't *proven*, but you were the one earlier talking sensibly about the logic of the film.

5802. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 4:16:20 PM

I had to read a book in college. It was called "Magi: Her two lives" or something like that. ("Magi" is probably not right. It was a woman's name, colon, "her two lives.")

Anyway, that book also explored the whole eros/thanatos thing. It featured, for example, a sex Tunnel of Love in which puppet skeletons fucked each other frantically.

What does that mean?

I dunno. But it's pretty damn cool.

5803. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 4:18:41 PM

"We see that one of the masked men talks to her before she grabs Doctor Bill and warns him that he is in danger. Why do they talk to her if not to get her help in setting up the show?"

The "Masked Man" who talks to her is the Man in the Broad Mask, who is certainly Sidney Pollack.

Given that Cruise is a friend who helped him out of a serious jam, he may well have been seeking to deliver a warning through an intermediary (He wouldn't give the warning himself, for Cruise would recognize his voice).

Your "set up the charade" interpretation is the interpretation Pollack offers. But it's certainly not the only interpretation offered.

5804. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 4:20:11 PM

"And, of course, the danger: By fucking around, Tom Cruise brings Death to his, and his FAMILY's, doorstep."

Well, that is what I am saying. It is the use of recurrent images and themes to do some trite moralizing.

Now, I can forgive trite moralizing if it actually has some sort of emotional impact, but it is a pretty silly point to try to make intellectually.

5805. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 4:25:51 PM

"Your "set up the charade" interpretation is the interpretation Pollack offers. But it's certainly not the only interpretation offered."

I think it is the only one which makes sense. The idea that she would agree to sacrifice herself for him in some hackneyed way, and that the cult would just let Cruise skedaddle if they were genuinely willing to kill someone, is silly.

Even sillier than a sex cult.

5806. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 4:26:46 PM

"It is the use of recurrent images and themes to do some trite moralizing."

Moralizing? Where's the moralizing?

It's simply a FACT that illicit sex is dangerous -- financially, matrimonially, legally, pathogenically.

A movie which exploits this fact is no more "moralizing" than was Jaws for pointing out that sharks are pretty fucking dangerous.

"Moralizing" requires a "Don't do this." The film doesn't say "Don't do this." Indeed, the film remains studiously neutral about all this; if anything, it glamorizes illicit sex.

Danger itself glamorizes illicit sex.

If you feel that exploiting such a rich (and literally respectable) theme as "sex=death" is "moralizing" somehow, well, I don't know how you square this with countless books (many outright pornographic) which make the connection.

Ever hear of the Marquis De Sade? He would have been a fan of EWS, and he was no moralist.

5807. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 4:27:26 PM

"The idea that she would agree to sacrifice herself for him in some hackneyed way"

He saved her life. You remember that, right?

5808. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 4:39:55 PM

"Moralizing? Where's the moralizing? It's simply a FACT that illicit sex is dangerous -- financially, matrimonially, legally, pathogenically."

Yes, but the film makes this point repeatedly (the hooker with AIDS, the orgy sequence, the scene at the costume shop), trying to hammer it home. It is moralizing.

"A movie which exploits this fact is no more "moralizing" than was Jaws for pointing out that sharks are pretty fucking dangerous."

Don't be silly. Jaws was using the shark to create a rather traditional monster film, relying on thrills and chills. It wasn't lecturing about the dangers of sharks. There is nothing wrong with using the danger of illicit sex as the basis of a thriller, ala Fatal Attraction.

""Moralizing" requires a "Don't do this." The film doesn't say "Don't do this." Indeed, the film remains studiously neutral about all this; if anything, it glamorizes illicit sex."

I don't think so. A primary complaint about the film was that it wasn't sexy (except for Kidman - his *wife*). I can't think of a single scene which glamorized illicit sex.

"If you feel that exploiting such a rich (and literally respectable) theme as "sex=death" is "moralizing" somehow, well, I don't know how you square this with countless books (many outright pornographic) which make the connection."

I never said that one couldn't explore the sex=death theme without moralizing (although I still don't see how the theme is "rich"). I sad that the way EWS used it was moralizing.

"He saved her life. You remember that, right?"

Yes. I can't remember though, does she?

Anyway, a hard drug user is hardly a person I would predict to be self-sacrificing. And it still doesn't make sense why the cult would agree to have her "redeem him".

5809. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 4:49:28 PM

Rask:

The fact that a film makes the sex-danger/death connection REPEATEDLY as you say doesn't mean it's moralizing, either. If a film is going to explore a theme, it had *better* do it repeatedly. That's what a "theme" is. It's a revisitation/re-exploitation/re-reification of an idea.

How could someone so willfully confuse Kubrick's intent? Kubrick?! making a "moralizing" film? Good lord, I'd have thought the various hot naked chicks getting fucked in every position would've clued you in otherwise.

I don't see how "fatal attraction" is non-moralizing, but EWS *is* moralizing, by your loosey-goosey "I know it when I see it" standards. (PS, Fatal Attraction was much closer to a Morality Play in this regard. Everything was very literal and conventional: Man does a bad thing. Man pays consequences for Bad Thing. Man has redemption by shooting Glenn Close in a bathtub and then hugs wife. Yay. EWS -- especially according to YOUR interpretation -- featured absolutely consequence-free sex. There was a SHADOW of danger, but it turned out to be merely a shadow-- there was no danger at all.)

A hooker with AIDS makes a moralizing film? Oh, well.

"Anyway, a hard drug user is hardly a person I would predict to be self-sacrificing."

Now who's moralizing. "She's a drug-addict; she must be bad."

"And it still doesn't make sense why the cult would agree to have her "redeem him"."

Cults have goofy rituals and rules, dude. That's why they're cults. If they didn't have goofy rituals and rules and bizarre initiation rites, they'd be something else. Like a restaurant.

5810. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 4:54:51 PM

I didn't see EWS as "moralizing" so much as a contemplation on the meaning of intimacy. One can opine that anonymous sex is alienating without preaching that it is per se immoral.

5811. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 4:59:30 PM

Fatal Attraction was originally supposed to end with Glenn Close committing suicide in her apartment, leaving behind evidence to frame Michael Douglas for causing her death. That ending didn't "test" well, though, and a reshoot was done to add the bathtub scene at the end.

5812. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 5:01:10 PM

I know, but the film as actually released contains the bathtub scene. The bathtub scene is the movie, no matter what previous intents might have been.

5813. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 5:06:46 PM

"The fact that a film makes the sex-danger/death connection REPEATEDLY as you say doesn't mean it's moralizing, either. If a film is going to explore a theme, it had *better* do it repeatedly. That's what a "theme" is. It's a revisitation/re-exploitation/re-reification of an idea."

Yes, and the theme is (partly, at least) a moral one against the dangers of illicit sex. I'll agree that the sex=death thing is presented in other contexts as well, but I would have thought the moralizing was obvious. It certainly was obvious to a lot of reviewers, who commented on it.

Think about the film. It damn near posits a cause and effect relationship between illicit sex and personal tragedy. And its attraction is frequently minimized. The orgy scene is deliberately depersonalized, cold, and not sexy. In contrast, the sexiest thing in the film is Kidman, Doctor Bill's wife.

"How could someone so willfully confuse Kubrick's intent? Kubrick?! making a "moralizing" film? Good lord, I'd have thought the various hot naked chicks getting fucked in every position would've clued you in otherwise."

You make the incredibly naive (especially for you) mistake that to display an action on screen is to condone it.

5814. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 5:06:51 PM

"I don't see how "fatal attraction" is non-moralizing, but EWS *is* moralizing, by your loosey-goosey "I know it when I see it" standards. "

Learn to read better. All I said is "There is nothing wrong with using the danger of illicit sex as the basis of a thriller, ala Fatal Attraction". I never said that Fatal Attraction wasn't moralizing. Of course it is. But that moral has damned little to do with the quality of the film. My argument is that Kubrick spends a hell of a lot of screen time emphasizing, developing, and exploring what is basically a trite theme that is mere subtext in a mediocre thriller like Fatal Attraction. And Fatal Attraction drives the moral home better.

I am not critizing the film for being moralizing. I am criticizing it for spending so much time moralizing ineffectively.

5815. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 5:10:16 PM

I didn't mean to contest your summation of the film. Just an interesting anecdote. That one scene did make it a different film, in any case. The original script left you with the sense that the Douglas character was going to be paying for his indiscretion for the rest of his life. The bathtub scene made it a much more Hollywood-friendly morality tale, with husband and wife finding redemption at the end by helping each other to slay the dragon.

5816. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 5:13:31 PM

"You make the incredibly naive (especially for you) mistake that to display an action on screen is to condone it."

And you are making another naive assumption: That to explore the necessary, factual, undeniable consequences of taking a certain action is to "moralize" against that action.

Sex is no differenent than sharks in this regard. They are both dangerous. A film that portrays sex as dangerous is no more moralizing than Jaws was. You claim "Jaws was different." I fail to see how in any respect meaningful to this discussion.

By the way: A film that doesn't highlight the danger of illicit sex is a porno. I'm not talking about moralizing here. But to make a film about sex, you need CONFLICT involving sex. And what, precisely, can that conflict possibly be, if not for danger?

If there's no danger, if there's no consequences, then there's ergo no conflict, and ergo no story. And ergo, a porno. "Hey, wanna fuck?" "Sure, I'd love to! Let's have sex!"

I like pornos well enough, but I generally expect some drama and conflict in movies. And a movie about sex will have to contrive some sort of drama and conflict related to the sex. Otherwise, you just have people fucking and having the times of their bloody lives, doncha?

5817. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 5:14:55 PM

"The original script left you with the sense that the Douglas character was going to be paying for his indiscretion for the rest of his life. The bathtub scene made it a much more Hollywood-friendly morality tale..."

Um, going to prison for the rest of your life places it solidly in the Morality Play camp, too.

Doctor Faust was turned into a steaming pile of shit and condemned to hell for an eternity. That's a Morality Play for ya.

5818. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 5:22:20 PM

"Um, going to prison for the rest of your life places it solidly in the Morality Play camp, too."

As I recall, the ending left it looking more vague than that. You weren't sure if he was going to be charged with killing her, or if he would simply be implicated in a scandal involving a suicidal schizophrenic who died with his love child in her womb. This lack of resolution is probably why it didn't test well (and I only read the script - I never saw the original cut).

But when I say "Hollywood-friendly," I mean that the ending wrapped things up neatly and righted the scales which the story had thrown out of balance. Giving the audience a sense that justice has been done is what mainstream Hollywood does best.

5819. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 5:25:45 PM

"Giving the audience a sense that justice has been done is what mainstream Hollywood does best."

I refuse to engage in this sort of Hollywood-bashing. If concluding a movie satisfatorily -- if observing the fuddy-duddy rules of drama which have worked from Aristotle to Coppola -- is some sort of pandering, mark me down as a panderer.

5820. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 5:35:43 PM

Jesus H. Christ, where do you get that I was "Hollywood-bashing?" It was a completely neutral observation. Hollywood gives the audience justice, which accounts in no small part for Hollywood's success worldwide. European filmmakers - and I generally include Kubrick among them - prefer to leave their audiences with a feeling of uncertainty, a sense that the world is a bucket of shit and we're all in it together.

You need to get over your sense that I'm always looking to needle you. I happen to think that you're a very insightful film critic, and I usually find myself in agreement with what you say.

5821. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 5:37:08 PM

"And you are making another naive assumption: That to explore the necessary, factual, undeniable consequences of taking a certain action is to "moralize" against that action."

Depends on context. The film doesn't just warn against the dangers of the action. It devotes a lot of screen time to present several different negative consequences, the one real (as opposed to the fantasy sex scene between Kidman and the officer) portrayal of illicit sex in the movie (the orgy scene) is extremely cold and unappealing (showing little reward in the search for illicit sex). At the end of the film, Cruise learns to avoid illicit sex, confesses to his wife, who forgives him and promises to jump his bones as soon as possible. Illicit sex is punished. Marital sex with the hottest chick in the film is the reward.

I would be curious as to why you think this *isn't* a morality tale. It is at least as much a morality tale as Fatal Attraction is, just more artfully presented.

"Sex is no differenent than sharks in this regard. They are both dangerous. A film that portrays sex as dangerous is no more moralizing than Jaws was. You claim "Jaws was different." I fail to see how in any respect meaningful to this discussion."

The difference is that the danger from the shark was a *means* to an end in Jaws, as was the danger from adultery in Fatal Attraction. They weren't the primary focus of the film. Suspense and terror were. EWS, on the other hand, is largely just a 2.5 hour long intellectual puzzle, the solution of which is "extramarital sex is bad".

5822. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 5:37:14 PM

"But to make a film about sex, you need CONFLICT involving sex. And what, precisely, can that conflict possibly be, if not for danger?"

I agree with this. The mere fact that you see the need to mention this tells me that you are still missing the point of my criticisms. I am not saying that sex of all types can only be portrayed as wholesome and rewarding. I am saying "why the hell are you wasting so much of my time showing me such a mundane point with no other emotional, intellectual, or artistic payoff".

5823. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 5:43:13 PM

Kaos:

Your statement may have be meant to be neutral, but it wasn't written that way. Don't blame the Audience for confusion created by your own words. "Hollywood specializes in delivering this audience-friendly sense of righteousness" was how I read your post. If you didn't mean it that way, you might have chosen a different way to express yourself.

And Jesus H. Christ yourself-- my rejoinder to you was fucking mild as hell.

5824. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 5:47:42 PM

Rask,

I think that the interesting accomplishment in EWS is that the audience senses Cruise's deepening alienation even as he becomes privy to ever more erotic scenes. That's why I don't see EWS as a morality tale that's meant to say that illicit sex is bad so much as it seems meant to say that intimacy is good.

5825. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 5:50:33 PM

Ace,

I give up. I don't see how I could have put it more neutrally than by saying exactly what I said: "Giving the audience a sense that justice has been done is what mainstream Hollywood does best."

It is only by your own prejudices and presumptions that you could glean an intent to "bash" Hollywood from that statement.

5826. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 5:50:47 PM

Rask:

Well, I'm guessing that the film would NOT have been "moralizing" if Tom Cruise decided to dump his wife for the newly-discovered pleasures of the flesh the Sex Cult offered.

Which means your thesis is that one conclusion/MESSAGE is okay but one is "moralizing" and bad.

I begin with no a priori preference for one message/"moral" over the other.

5827. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 5:52:45 PM

"That's why I don't see EWS as a morality tale that's meant to say that illicit sex is bad so much as it seems meant to say that intimacy is good."

I thought it was saying both. Two sides of the same coin and all that.

Now I think we may be down to taste. My gripe with the film is that it is solely an intellectual puzzle with "illicit sex bad/marital sex good" as the solution. It had no emotional impact on me. Others evidently were somehow affected more.

5828. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 5:54:39 PM

Kaos:

Well, I read it a certain way. I read a certain bias into it.

Your sentence sounds JUST LIKE the sentence of a Hollywood basher. Like I said, your intention might have been neutral, as you say. But the sentence nonetheless SOUNDS LIKE the sentence of a non-neutral party. The type of sentence which includes the words "pablum" or "vast wasteland" or "zombified bourgeois American morons."

Were I to write such a sentence, I'd preface with a "Not to bash Hollywood or anything, but..." And I'd write that because I myself would recogize the sentence SOUNDS like the typical faux-intellectual Hollywood bashing one reads so often. I'd make my neutral stance clear.

But whatever. I misread. I received a signal you weren't sending. But my rejoinder was hardly something to "Jesus H. Christ" me about.

5829. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 5:57:35 PM

"Well, I'm guessing that the film would NOT have been "moralizing" if Tom Cruise decided to dump his wife for the newly-discovered pleasures of the flesh the Sex Cult offered."

Depends on presentation. The Godfather ends with Michael fully immersing himself in his life as a mobster, but the moral attitude of the film is still that this is a tragedy.

"Which means your thesis is that one conclusion/MESSAGE is okay but one is "moralizing" and bad."

I don't quite understand you here. You still think that I am saying that having a moral is bad?

5830. LadyChaos - 3/15/2000 6:00:05 PM

Ace,

All is forgiven. I actually admire the Hollywood form of screenplay structure when it's at its best. I think that Ghost is a particularly well-executed example.

5831. Cellar Door - 3/15/2000 7:34:25 PM

Since Cruise never gets laid, how can he be said to have learned to "avoid illicit sex"? If the film were really and truly moralizing a definitive conclusion to all the events we've seen would have been offered. Kubrick leaves everything hanging. What "really" caused the girl's death? Was the masked woman's warning genuine or just part of the show? Is the story Kidman tells him about the filrtation true, or was she making ir up because she was annoyed seeing him flirt with the models? For all her kidding, would she have gone off with that Hungarian cornball nonethless? And on and on and on. We never know for sure about anything

5832. Cellar Door - 3/15/2000 7:36:21 PM

Alos, I think Kubrick's use of Cruise matches his use of Ryan O'Neal in "Barry Lyndon." Both are shallow men whose lives we don't care much about but whose circumstances are compelling.

5833. AceofSpades - 3/15/2000 9:25:59 PM

Cellar:

Which makes the Cruise character pretty much the same as every protagonist in every thriller.

5834. Raskolnikov - 3/15/2000 9:45:42 PM

"Since Cruise never gets laid, how can he be said to have learned to "avoid illicit sex"?"

learned to not try to get it, that is.

"If the film were really and truly moralizing a definitive conclusion to all the events we've seen would have been offered. "

This doesn't follow at all.

5835. Angel-Five - 3/15/2000 9:56:17 PM

Well, today I had to sit on a committee to determine which movies were going to be shown on the local residence life channel. I will never, ever, do that again. 3 guys and 6 women and no one wanted to show any of the older movies. They were all like 'Tommy Boy was sooooo funny!' and 'Oh, I didn't understand Pulp Fiction, let's not show it.' I had to fight tooth and nail to get anything on it that was any good at all.

The list:
The Sixth Sense
The Godfather
Good Will Hunting
Don't Be A Menace to South Central While Drinking Your Juice In The Hood
Dazed and Confused (urk)
Mall Rats
The Matrix
Seven
The Shawshank Redemption
Toy Story 2
American Beauty (woohoo!)
Three Kings
Up Close and Personal
Runaway Bride

Some movies that were actually seriously proposed:

Lethal Weapon 4

Black Sheep

Tommy Boy

Deuce Bigalow

Don't Tell Mom The Baby Sitter's Dead

Superstar

Man in the Iron Mask

Stewart fucking Little

Sabrina

These movies will be shown in rotation, three or four a night for a month. After two weeks almost everyone will be sick of them as it is -- can you imagine a month of City of Angels and Meet Joe Black?

5836. Angel-Five - 3/15/2000 10:02:00 PM

They included Don't Be A Menace... to be multicultural. Someone asked if we should have a classic horror/suspense movie and I asked 'What about The Thing?'

They all looked at me.
'North By Northwest?'

'Oh, I've heard of that one, doesn't it star Jimmy Stewart?'

...

...'Psycho?'
'Oh, I can't watch that movie, it creeps me out.'

then someone's like 'How about the Rocky Horror Picture Show'?

5837. CalGal - 3/15/2000 10:50:39 PM

That is tragic. You can't move, I suppose?

5838. CalGal - 3/15/2000 10:53:01 PM

Stanley Kauffman on Robert Downey and Tobey Maguire (from his Wonder Boys review) struck me as particularly apt:

Downey is a welcome annoyance: he always shows more talent than his casualness seems to deserve. There's a shape to his performances that he is careful not to make a fuss about. As for Maguire, the first few times I saw him I was taken by his reticent appeal but wondered whether he would ever learn to speak. Now I am willing to concede that he is what he is, a film person, a personality, not in any full sense an actor. If he learned more about acting, he might crimp his appeal.

5839. Angel-Five - 3/15/2000 11:00:52 PM

Nope. The people I've told about the list are like 'Well, some of them are good, but... *whine*' and all I have to tell them is 'you have no idea how close you came to getting the Chris Farley/David Spade 24 hour network with a healthy leavening of 'Cabin Boy' and 'Billy Madison' to round it out.'

Then again, my friend is ticked that they didn't get The Waterboy.

5840. Cellar Door - 3/15/2000 11:23:48 PM

Rask, "Fatal Attraction" is a perfect example of the sort of cheap morlaizing "EWS" avoids. Douglas has a quickie affair with Close and then is tormented for it through the rest of the picture. Nothing remotely similar happens to Cruise. Moreover, "EWS" doesn't end with a Kodak Moment of a Smiling Happy Family Reunited. They're just the same Yuppie shoppers they always were, languidly roaming the aisles of FAO Schwartz. "Let's go home and fuck," is not a solution to the manifest problems in their relationship. And these were problems that existed long before the film's action began.

5841. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 10:32:08 AM

I'll certainly admit that the relationships and characterizations in EWS are more complex, but I think it is pretty clear that the end is supposed to signify a validation of their marriage.

I think there could be a pretty good movie exploring the nature and difficulty of marital fidelity, but Kubrick's cold approach is just *wrong* for it.

5842. JudithAtHome - 3/16/2000 10:44:53 AM

AngelFive:

Once at a local film society meeting, I ran into the opposite problem. We were all asked to submit suggestions for films to run for the coming year, after which a vote would be taken to decide on the final list. There were about 30 of us there and we all sent down our lists to the guy in charge. This took place in our clubhouse, a small 1940s era theatre.

"Bob", our pretentious pres, got up on the stage and started reading the suggestions so we could vote. Most were foreign and many were obscure. He read one as "Hondo Cinco Cinco" and everyone looked blank. Finally this lanky guy from the back said "That"s 'Hondo', 1966, Bob."

5843. pseudoerasmus - 3/16/2000 10:45:51 AM

someone tell me the best movies of the past three months.

at the last weekend I saw my first (new) movie in three months, The Not So Lamented Mr Ripley.

Does that movie require one to suspend disbelief one too many times?

I think a pair of lumpenproletarians walking out of the theatre expressed it best: "he was a fucked up little queer, so what was the point?"

5844. CalGal - 3/16/2000 10:54:59 AM

There really hasn't been much in the past three months. If Topsy Turvy is still in the theaters, you might like that. My Best Fiend, the documentary by Herzog on his friendship with Klaus Kinski.

Of course, you could go play rocketboy and see Mission to Mars.

5845. CalGal - 3/16/2000 11:00:05 AM

If you can still find Galaxy Quest, you might find it amusing, given your distaste for Trekkies.

5846. theDiva - 3/16/2000 11:01:04 AM

Go see Toy Story 2 and Galaxy Quest. Rampant silliness and very, very funny.

Of course, the same could be said of The Ninth Gate, which I saw last night. But not for the same reasons.

5847. theDiva - 3/16/2000 11:01:22 AM

oh man. GMTA.

5848. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 11:05:40 AM

Pseudo: Not sure if my recommending them will make you see them or avoid them, but the best films of the last few months were Toy Story 2, Being John Malkovich, and The Insider. Not sure if any of them are playing anymore, however.

This is one of the worst times of the year for movies. You basically have to choose between Oscar nominated films like American Beauty, Cider House Rules, and Green Mile (all of which are mediocre at best) or the dregs of the Hollywood studios, which they didn't think were good enough to release during the Christmas season or summertime. Although Polanski's new film "Ninth Gate" and the sci fi horror film "Pitch Black" have some fans (haven't seen either myself). Julia Roberts has a new film coming out tomorrow, directed by Soderbergh, which has gotten a lot of good buzz.

5849. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 11:08:04 AM

Galaxy Quest was a lot of fun. I am not sure whether a diehard Trekkie-hater like Pseudo will love it or hate it.

5850. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 11:11:43 AM

Emperor and the Assassin might be Pseudo's cup of tea. I have seen a lot of good comments about it.

5851. Cellar Door - 3/16/2000 11:21:40 AM

I think a pair of lumpenproletarians walking out of the theatre expressed it best: "he was a fucked up little queer, so what was the point?"

COLD! Maybe they should stick to the likes of "American Pie." But I would have thought more of you, Pseudo.

Oh, that's right -- I keep forgetting. You're in your 30's.

5852. Cellar Door - 3/16/2000 11:26:44 AM

Which makes the Cruise character pretty much the same as every protagonist in every thriller.

Up to a point, Ace. In most thrillers the characters are sketched out rather simply, because the situation is the star. Think of Janet Leigh in "Psycho," or Sigourney Weaver in the original "Alien."
But Kubrick, I feel, toys with this quite bit. Dr. Bill thinks his superficial charm knows no bounds. But we see its limits demonstrated over and over again in the course of the action -- climaxed by his giving the hooker a Bundt cake. He thinks this will smooth things over, but it means nothing in the long run. From first to last , he's completely ineffectual.

5853. TabouliJones - 3/16/2000 11:27:21 AM

Pseudo,

I think Magnolia is still kicking around in theatres. It has been the subject of much debate in recent months. Many feel that it is the masterful work of a great young talent -- director P.T. Anderson. Many others have panned it as an ultra-pretentious piece of crap that dumbs down Robert Altman and drones on way too long. Personally, I enjoyed it, but can appreciate much of the disdain that has been lobbed its way. I would describe it as Altman for the M.T.V. generation. Despite its many flaws, Magnolia is certainly the most interesting movie to come out in the last six months.

Of the new releases that I have seen, I would *mildly* recommend The Wonder Boys by director Curtis Hanson. Hanson doesn't show the same assured hand as he did in L.A. Confidential, but his latest is a fairly amusing yarn about the travails of an over the hill writing professor and the gang of misfits that have accrued around him. It works as understated farce, imo. However, Dantheman disliked the movie; and made a convincing case that it is far too silly, far too pat, and haphazard in its character development -- or something like that.

5854. pseudoerasmus - 3/16/2000 11:30:06 AM

Cellardweller # 5851

I was merely quoting! I'd never have put it that way myself!

5855. Cellar Door - 3/16/2000 11:31:05 AM

"I'll take 'Ultra-pretentious piece of crap that dumbs down Robert Altman and drones on way too long' for 500, Alex."

5856. CalGal - 3/16/2000 11:32:10 AM

Of course you wouldn't have.

You would have said "So he was a seriously deranged little sodomite. All of his problems would have been solved by a good beating. What was the point?"

5857. Cellar Door - 3/16/2000 11:33:12 AM

Well what DID you think of "Ripley," Pseudo? Are you familiar with the Highsmith novel and its sequels? Have you seen "Purple Noon"? How about "The American Friend"? Do you consider yourself a Jude Law Love Slave like me?

5858. 109109 - 3/16/2000 11:36:25 AM

pseudo

From 1999 - Films I enjoyed

Being John Malkovich
The Limey
The Sixth Sense
Election
The Talented Mr. Ripley
The Cider House Rules
Galaxy Quest
Happy Texas
Go
Toy Story 2
Cookie's Fortune
The Blair Witch Project
The Matrix
Analyze This
Notting Hill
An Ideal Husband
The Thomas Crown Affair
South Park
Dick
Office Space
Bowfinger
The 13th Warrior
The Winslow Boy

5859. JudithAtHome - 3/16/2000 11:37:53 AM

Cellar:

Is "...Ripley" anything like "The American Friend"? I loved that movie...

5860. 109109 - 3/16/2000 11:38:03 AM

I am in the middle of Eyes Wide Shut. I turned it off after the orgy scene, for no particular reason other than it was late. I cannot now say whether I recommend the film or not.

5861. pseudoerasmus - 3/16/2000 11:40:30 AM

Plein soleil, that Alain Delon thing? Yes, I've seen it but can't remember much about it. But then I don't masturbate to the image of Alain Delon.

No, I'm not familiar with the Highsmith novel or its sequels.

Shouldn't Mr Ripley stand on its own?

Never heard of the American Friend.

As for the film itself, I think the guy who played Ripley was...how to say it? The French word dégueulasse.

Jude Law is a very good actor, no question about it, but I can't stop thinking of him as a much-buggered canary.

The woman from "Elizabeth" seemed too old for that cast.

The whole thing was unbelievable from beginning to end, and nothing compelled me to suspend disbelief.

I can't remember whether I got to see Paltrow's lithe nakedness, or perhaps that was in some other movie?

5862. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 11:41:50 AM

Sadly, Paltrow doesn't get naked in Ripley.

5863. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 11:42:32 AM

Magnolia was like a very long, horribly pretentious student film. I was going to say that Anderson looks like a good raw talent who just needs a strong producer and a good writers to rein him in, but having thought it over, I don't think that either would help him. Usually, when a movie is over-long, I can think of ways to trim it down and make it more watchable (when a shot or scene goes on for too long, a Rivas cutter starts going "chunk!" in my mind's ear). This exercise does not work, though, when the film doesn't have an ending. Magnolia falls into that category, and for that I hold the director ultimately responsible.

pseudo,

The best film of the last year that I have seen is Boys Don't Cry.

5864. JudithAtHome - 3/16/2000 11:45:10 AM

"The American Friend" is a German film by Win Wenders with Dennis Hopper and Bruno Ganz. It was very good.

5865. 109109 - 3/16/2000 11:46:41 AM

Lady

The best first-half of a film was Boys Don't Cry (or, actually, Three Kings, then Boys Don't Cry). The director thereafter inundated the audience with no less than five excruciating scenes of psychological and physical brutality, numbing the audience, not into pity or compassion or even deeper understanding of Swank's character, but into disinterest. A film's core character can only be abused so often before dehumanization sets in.

5866. TabouliJones - 3/16/2000 11:47:24 AM

I think Magnolia holds together better than LadyC suggests, but many tend to concur with her assessment. I agree, Magnolia could use some judicious trimming; but I was entertained enough to forgive the frayed edges that slowly began to reveal themselves in the second half of the film.

I will ditto LadyC's recommendation of Boys Don't Cry as the best movie of the year.

5867. 109109 - 3/16/2000 11:48:49 AM

The best movie of the year was either The Sixth Sense or The Limey or Being John Malkovich or Election.

5868. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 11:50:05 AM

I still haven't had the stomach for Magnolia. Everything I have read indicates to me that PT Anderson is even less restrained in the film making elements which so damaged Boogie Nights.

5869. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 11:54:33 AM

109,

The honest portrayal of the brutality was not intended to convey any greater understanding of Brandon, but rather to convey the rage of two simpletons whose whole world was shattered by the discovery that one of their buddies was really a girl. Those scenes showed quite realistically the deep hostility that most people have towards people who break down the walls of gender and physical sex. Because transgenders are often murdered in the most brutal fashion, I was glad to see that the film pulled no punches in that regard.

5870. Cellar Door - 3/16/2000 11:57:35 AM

As "Boys Don't Cry' is based on a true story, there's no other way to play the second half, Niner.

I did not masturbate over Alain Delon. I merely stood at attention.

Can't say that I've ever buggered a canary, so you're on your own on that score, Pseudo.

Suspension of disbelief has never appealed to me.

5871. Cellar Door - 3/16/2000 11:59:03 AM

The best movie of the year was either The Sixth Sense or The Limey or Being John Malkovich or Election.

I like all four to varying degrees. But the best film of the year was "Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train."

5872. TabouliJones - 3/16/2000 11:59:15 AM

I disagree Niner.

The last half of Boys Don't Cry not only held together, but brought deeper insight into Teena's personality and her relationships witht the people around her. Two examples to illustrate my point. First, there is the scene in the station house, when Teena is trying to explain that she has a gender identity crisis. There is something in the way that Swank plays the scene that suggests that the label gender identity crisis is insufficient (and far too pat) a description of what is really going on with the character deep down inside. Second, consider the last time Teena and the Sevigny character make out. They have apparently done so on the assumption that they are going to try their hand at a lesbian relationship. Then, when Sevigny gets up from the couch, Teena grabs her belt and pulls her down -- playfully but in a really manly way. This brings an added layer to the scene which increased my interest in the psychological dynamics at play.

As for your argument that the second half is so dehumanizing that it squanders the movie's unique energy: I don't know what to say, beyond I disagree.

5873. CalGal - 3/16/2000 11:59:44 AM

Best Movies of 1999:

Three Kings
Tarzan
Sixth Sense
Bowfinger
Being John Malkovich
Election
Notting Hill
Iron Giant
Toy Story 2
Nothing is completely worthy of the tenth slot yet

Other really solid movies (in no particular order):

Galaxy Quest
The Matrix
Office Space
Analyze This
Cider House Rules (with qualifications)
The Insider
Any Given Sunday (which surprised me)
Dick
Go

Haven't seen Happy, Texas, Magnolia, and Boys Don't Cry. Only the first is likely to hit my top ten list.

Best movie I saw last year was the revival of The Third Man.

5874. 109109 - 3/16/2000 12:01:38 PM

Lady

I have no doubt as to the accuracy of the horror. I did not think it lent itself well to the film.

5875. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 12:02:37 PM

Three Kings gets my vote for one of the best war movies ever made, btw.

5876. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 12:08:06 PM

One of the most overlooked performances in Boys Don't Cry is that of Sevigny's mother. That was a devastatingly accurate portrayal, imo, of an alcoholic mother in lower class rural America.

That film was chock full of amazingly accurate throw-away details, like the moment where one of the guys pushes his five-year old daughter to have a sip of beer. It makes you realize how ignorance and foolishness are perpetuated over generations.

5877. 109109 - 3/16/2000 12:14:02 PM

The directorial decision of Boys Don't Cry is invariably a difficult one for any filmmaker who takes on "true crime" (and especially, true, horrifying, banal but evil crime). The standards for such depiction are In Cold Blood and Carl Franklin's One False Move. Boys Don't Cry poured it on, and it drove many away from the theatre when I saw it. Others, I fear, stayed out of some sense of civic duty.

5878. 109109 - 3/16/2000 12:14:52 PM

I agree 1000 percent as to Sevigny's mother, who was more impressive than Sevigny (who was serviceable, but doomed in the shining light of Swank's strong performance).

5879. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 12:15:00 PM

Best films of 99

The Matrix
The Straight Story
Toy Story 2
Being John Malkovich
Election
The Sixth Sense
Go
The Blair Witch Project
Run Lola Run
The Insider
The Iron Giant
South Park
Bowfinger
Tarzan
Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels
Galaxy Quest

Still haven't seen: The Limey, Boys Don't Cry, All About My Mother, and Magnolia.

5880. TabouliJones - 3/16/2000 12:15:32 PM

Another nice throw away deal from Boys Don't Cry: The Cars' song "I don't want you coming here and wasting all my time" is blasted over the speakers during the opening scene at the roller rink. Not only was it appropriate to play the Cars' at a roller rink, but the lyrics aptly foreshadowed the conflicts to come. Details like that made Boys Don't Cry even more interesting to watch on second viewing.

5881. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 12:15:35 PM

Has anyone seen Fantasia 2000 yet?

5882. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 12:16:15 PM

Not to belabor the point, but Boys Don't Cry is, imo, the best example of American realism to come along since Midnight Cowboy.

5883. 109109 - 3/16/2000 12:17:57 PM

Lady

It definitely fits in that pantheon. It was stunningly authentic, but it was directed with a certain grace that avoided maudlin american mythos crap. I was reminded of One False Move.

5884. CalGal - 3/16/2000 12:19:35 PM

I think DantheMan has seen it, Rask.

And I have The Limey queued up for rental. That's another one that might make the top ten.

5885. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 12:25:52 PM

Boys Don't Cry poured it on, and it drove many away from the theatre when I saw it. Others, I fear, stayed out of some sense of civic duty.

This brings up an interesting point, which is whether directors have a duty to make a film that people can sit through. I personally think not, so long as the brutality is grounded in realistic human emotions. The problem for Brandon in BDC is that s/he has nowhere to turn; s/he's trapped in a situation from which there is no escape. The audience is forced to make a judgment call: Did Brandon really bring this upon him/herself, or did the others have a realistic choice as to how to react? I think that audience members might have grown uncomfortable because they were confronted with such fundamental questions, and Americans really don't like being taken to task in that way.

An example of a film that poured on the brutality in a way that was not justified (and was thus downright offensive) was Greenaway film, The Cook, the Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover.

5886. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 12:28:46 PM

it was directed with a certain grace that avoided maudlin american mythos crap

I agree. If only for this reason, the film really deserved a best director nomination. If I'm not mistaken, it might have been the first feature Oscar to go to a female director.

5887. 109109 - 3/16/2000 12:30:24 PM

Lady

"This brings up an interesting point, which is whether directors have a duty to make a film that people can sit through."

They do. It is a film. And it is impliit even in Boys Don't Cry. I have no doubt that the director managed only .01 percent of Swank's horrifying end. But, the decision is to make a film, not a carbon copy, and implicit in that decision is to make a film popcorn buying people can sit through.

Her wattage on the brutal end was simply amped too high, a common mistake.

5888. CalGal - 3/16/2000 12:33:46 PM

Lady--Dead on with Three Kings. I feel the same way. Excellent war movie.

5889. CalGal - 3/16/2000 12:34:50 PM

I don't think directors have such a responsibility. But I do think it's a perfectly valid reason for disliking a film.

5890. Jenerator - 3/16/2000 12:38:20 PM

I saw End of the Affair last week. It seememd like English Patient II except with a kindler, gentler, more jealous Ralph Fiennes. Cal Gal, I'll have you know that I saw this because of you and our recent Ralph talk in here. I didn't connect with either main character, and while my friends watched it crying, I was bored.

5891. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 12:38:34 PM

I would make a distinction between the duty owed toward the "popcorn buying public" and the duty a director owes to the material. The former is really a business decision where the production and distribution companies will have their say. The latter is often in conflict with the former, obviously, but not always. I think that an apt comparison might be a film about the Holocaust. The proper object of the film is to confront the audience with the reality of "man's inhumanity to man," and to force them to question how much of themselves they see in the brutalizer as well as the brutalized.

5892. CalGal - 3/16/2000 12:40:49 PM

Jen,

????

I didn't recommend End of the Affair, but Quiz Show. I am very disappointed with Fiennes' property selections. His brother has much better taste.

5893. Jenerator - 3/16/2000 12:43:33 PM

Cal,

I know you didn't recommend EOA, but you and I talked about him, and that is what made his image resonant in my mind thus causing me to choose the film. I blame you.

5894. marshame - 3/16/2000 12:44:05 PM

I see that American Beauty is not on anyone's lists. Yet the press is treating it like a shoo-in for the oscar.

5895. CalGal - 3/16/2000 12:44:12 PM

Oh. That works.

5896. CalGal - 3/16/2000 12:46:18 PM

The disconnect between Mote folk and critics on American Beauty is as marked as I've ever seen. Angel-Five and DantheMan spoke highly of it, I know.

5897. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 12:46:40 PM

"I see that American Beauty is not on anyone's lists. Yet the press is treating it like a shoo-in for the oscar."

It is a near shoo-in for the Oscar. I would say that it has about an 80-90% chance of winning.

I just hate it. The film has its fans in this thread (Dan, Angel, and a few others).

5898. marshame - 3/16/2000 12:48:34 PM

So which is more cynical, American Beauty or Magnolia? (I eschew cynicism in films so I may stear clear of both)

5899. 109109 - 3/16/2000 12:49:05 PM

Lady

"I think that an apt comparison might be a film about the Holocaust. The proper object of the film is to confront the audience with the reality of "man's inhumanity to man," and to force them to question how much of themselves they see in the brutalizer as well as the brutalized."

Yes, but see Schindler's List, the second half of which is much more than scene after scene of rape, gassing, starvation and degradation.

Unfortunately, the second half of Boys Don't Cry was exactly that.

5900. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 12:52:39 PM

I generally liked American Beauty. I just didn't see it as the triumph of film craft that the critics seem to trumpet it as. It wasn't as visceral and honest a skewering of middle-class Americana as was Election, but it was still quite good.

5901. AceofSpades - 3/16/2000 12:53:17 PM

"Dr. Bill thinks his superficial charm knows no bounds."

Cellar:

Given that every single man and woman in the film expresses a strong desire to fuck Dr. Bill (with two exceptions-- Mr. Millich and Sidney Pollack), I'd say his "superficial charm" is more than adequate and, in fact, "knows no bounds."

As for the bundt cake--

1) It's just a sweet gesture. I don't know why you're reading something negative into it.

2) How do you know it was a bundt cake? The box was never opened, and no one ever said what was inside.

5902. CalGal - 3/16/2000 12:54:53 PM

Last year was a superb year for comedies, and Oscar didn't notice. Election and Bowfinger were virtually ignored, yet I think they'll be on the list of great comedies for years to come. As will Toy Story 2, I think.

5903. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 12:58:01 PM

marshame,

Magnolia was not cynical at all. In fact, its major failing is one of over-earnestness, which is why I compared it to a long student film.

109,

The story in Schindler's List is not about the Holocaust per se, but is rather about the redemption of its main character. By time that Schindler's List was made, I think that few people questioned the fact that the Jews were treated horrendously in the Holocaust. The question had been answered in that respect, so the story was free to focus on other issues. Boys Don't Cry, on the other hand, was after a more fundamental goal, that of questioning how open our culture really is to people who refuse to conform to expected norms of gender behavior.

5904. marshame - 3/16/2000 12:59:33 PM

Malkovich takes the prize, in my book. Eccentric, ridiculous, hilarious, mysterious, I loved it! For example, Carmen Diaz' hair.

5905. 109109 - 3/16/2000 1:00:13 PM

Lady

I agree. And in nauseating the audience with excessive violence and degradation, it risks shutting off - rather than engedering - such questions, because audiences can be tender things.

5906. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 1:02:53 PM

marshame,

For someone who doesn't like cynicism, Malkovich is an odd choice for a favorite. I like it, but was to some degree turned off by its cynicism.

5907. Dantheman - 3/16/2000 1:03:29 PM

Rask,
I did see (and reviewed here see Message # 5118) Fantasia 2000. Not quite as good as the original, but few things are. My biggest gripes were that there was no need for stars to introduce each piece and that I prefer the sublime strings of the Philadelphia Orchestra, which played in the original, to the more brassy sounds of the Chicago Symphony. A couple of the pieces would not have been my choice, nor the choice of animation style mine. But that Shostakovich piece was worth the price itself.

5908. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 1:07:49 PM

109,

Of course, it comes down to a matter of taste. There are many ways to portray how gender non-conformists are treated, with the other end of the spectrum being campy fluff such as The Bird Cage. Boys Don't Cry was just one choice and, speaking as a gender outsider who has often experienced the feelings of being trapped not just by physical sex but by the expectations that our culture puts on you based on what's between your legs, I was glad to see such confrontational honesty. But I agree that it's not everyone's cup of tea, so to speak.

5909. CalGal - 3/16/2000 1:09:07 PM

Malkovich was a very good movie that I have no desire to see again. I didn't enjoy it at all, and the only thing that allowed me to sit through it was the realization, early on, that I was free to loathe all the characters equally. I doubt I will ever watch a movie with Catherine Keener again.

And I agree, Marsha--if you hate cynicism, how could you like Malkovich?

5910. Jenerator - 3/16/2000 1:10:51 PM

She likes weird movies.

5911. CalGal - 3/16/2000 1:12:07 PM

No, there's nothing wrong with liking weird movies. I just don't understand how someone could dislike cynicism and like Malkovich.

5912. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 1:14:17 PM

I agree with CalGal's assessment of Malkovich. It was an interesting but joyless exercise, mainly due to the fact that the director seemed to hate all of his characters.

5913. janjon - 3/16/2000 1:15:30 PM

I see some references to the Three Kings again today.

By all means, anyone who hasn't seen it should. Just an excellent movie. I guess it was just a bit too pointed for the Oscar boys and girls.

At any rate, I never buy movies, but this one I might. I am sure it is one that will provide new pleasures with each viewing.

5914. Jenerator - 3/16/2000 1:16:43 PM

Trust me, she likes weird movies. She's the one who made me see "Pecker."

5915. PelleNilsson - 3/16/2000 1:21:52 PM

Good movies about war, atrocities and so on are those that show a credible character development and forces the spectator to introspect and ask him or herself: Could that, but for the grace of God, have been me?

I don't watch movies much anymore, but Deer Hunter made an impression on me in that respect.

A curio: Stanley Kubrick's estate will now allow A Clockwork Orange to be screened in the UK.

5916. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 1:21:53 PM

Well, if marshame likes weird movies, she shouldn't go through life without seeing Eraserhead.

5917. marshame - 3/16/2000 1:22:35 PM

I liked the absurdity of the 7-and-a-half floor. I liked the premise of seeing through John Malkovich's eyes and experiencing his sensations. I liked the rediculousness of the star-turner-puppeteer. I relished each mannerism and idiosyncracy of John Malkovich. I liked the preposterousness of the woman only loving John M when the other woman was inside him. I adored how the people got spit out in New Jersey when the "ride" was over. And I absolutely howled at Carmen Diaz' hair!

Given these positive qualities, I was able to overlook the ennui of John Kusak, his betrayal of his wimpy wife, the depression of their dark and windowless apartment, the cold and calculated cynicism of the user Catherine Keener, and the (okay I admit it) premise that you're only really alive if you're inside a movie star.

But if it was cynicism, it was at least in the context of a totally preposterous and ridiculous storyline, whereas American Beauty (so I understand) could be as close as the people next door.

5918. janjon - 3/16/2000 1:23:18 PM

Pelle. See Three Kings. Trust me. Especially if you appreciate Joseph Heller.

5919. marshame - 3/16/2000 1:24:30 PM

Oviously, I have not yet mastered italics.

5920. marshame - 3/16/2000 1:25:02 PM

Yikes!

5921. Dantheman - 3/16/2000 1:25:06 PM

I've posted a few times on Three Kings. Briefly, I was unable to get past the historical inaccuracy which underpinned the movie. At the time the movie was set (immediately after the Gulf War ended), the Iraqis had not rebelled and the fact that the US would not in the future support the rebellion we encouraged was not known to every rebel and Iraqi footsoldier. By the time our lack of support was evident, Iraq had regained control of its borders and a raid like this could never have occurred.

5922. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 1:26:23 PM

I don't think that American Beauty is overwhelmed by cynicism. Its focal character is a man who has grown cynical about his middle-class existence, but that does not translate into a cynical movie per se. Save for the very very ending (which was gratuitous), the film seems to conclude on a rather hopeful note.

5923. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 1:26:54 PM

toys.

5924. CalGal - 3/16/2000 1:27:41 PM

And that Catherine Keener got to live happily ever after just makes me puke. (I have the weirdest emotional reactions to these things)

Pelle,

I think there are a number of ways a war film can be effective, including the one you describe. You might want to check out Three Kings, considering the time you spent in the Mideast.

And thanks for the headsup on Clockwork--the last I'd heard, it was still unable to be shown in the UK.

5925. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 1:29:40 PM

Dan,

It struck me that Three Kings took place precisely in that period of ferment before the Iraqis began to openly rebel and before our lack of support for that rebellion became clear to them.

5926. Jenerator - 3/16/2000 1:30:39 PM

It's premiering either this weekend or next.

5927. Cellar Door - 3/16/2000 1:33:06 PM

Re directorial decisions on difficult material: it's never an easy call. Pull back just a tad and you're "not being honest enough" or "prettifying the situation." Go full bore and you're "in love with violence," and "made it look worse than it probably was."

BTW, for a number of reasons, the black man who was killed along with brandon ( a classic case of Wrong Place/Wrong Time) wasn't included in "Boys Don't Cry." More important, MUCHO controversy over the film's implication that Lana was at the scene of the murder. The real lana is sueing Fox. She won't get far, but it's likely because of this combined with the fact that the film "makes me look like a lesbian," or some such nonsense.

IMHO, Peirce's instincts are correct. I think Lana WAS at the scene of the crime. Check out the last scene of "The Brandon Teena Story" (now available on DVD.) She's singing Karaoke with John Lotter's sister!

5928. Dantheman - 3/16/2000 1:34:46 PM

LadyChaos,
No, I think it was pretty clear that they had already rebelled and been put down and it was apparent to both Iraqi soldiers and to the rebels themselves (spoiler: with the sole exception of the woman who was shot) that the US would take no action to support the rebels.

5929. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 1:45:01 PM

cellar,

I believe that Pierce's attention to fundamental craft -acting, dialogue, camera placement, editing, etc. - will make Boys Don't Cry a must in future film school classrooms. I'm just disappointed that, though deserving as she certainly is, the critics and the public seem to attribute the film's artistic success 100% to Hillary Swank's performance. I have to wonder if a bit of sexism didn't go into excluding Pierce from an Oscar nomination.

5930. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 2:19:59 PM

"I'm just disappointed that, though deserving as she certainly is, the critics and the public seem to attribute the film's artistic success 100% to Hillary Swank's performance. I have to wonder if a bit of sexism didn't go into excluding Pierce from an Oscar nomination."

I don't think so. For one thing, the film did poorly at the box office. Films grossing only a couple of million almost never get Director or Picture nominations. Additionally, critics gushed all over Swank's performance, but reviews of the film itself were mixed, so I think it is entirely plausible that the Academy ignored the director based solely on their perceptions of merit.

5931. Cellar Door - 3/16/2000 5:23:58 PM

Well it only played in a small number of theaters to start with, and that automatically translates into a low box office figure. In actual financial terms, the film has done quite well. Once european sales and video have figured in it's already into profit.

5932. Raskolnikov - 3/16/2000 5:32:04 PM

I am not using box office numbers as any sort of descriptor of financial or artistic success. Its just that the Academy *rarely* gives best picture nominations to films that only gross a couple of million dollars. That puts BDC in the same boat as Straight Story and All About My Mother, both of which garnered better critical notices and were also shut out from Best Picture and Best Director nominations.

5933. SpenceMirrlees - 3/16/2000 5:39:44 PM

As a rule I can't stand criticisms of movies or TV based on historical inaccuracies. It's not a fucking documentary. Watch a movie if you want dramatization of how humans deal with various types of events. Who cares if they really happened, or happened differently than the way the movie portrays? It's a vehicle.

5934. wonkers2 - 3/16/2000 8:44:41 PM

American Beauty is on my list. I predicted it would be a winner in this forum the day after I saw it when it first came out last year. The one I liked that nobody has mentioned recently is Sweet and Lowdown. I would vote for Sean Penn for best actor and Woody Allen for best script (if he had been nominated).

5935. wonkers2 - 3/16/2000 8:51:41 PM

Keener was praised by one critic I read for adlibbing when she rubbed Malkovich's bald head while she was astride him, so to speak. It was a nice touch. When I'm bald perhaps I could persuade someone to do that for me as well. I might even shave my head!

5936. LadyChaos - 3/16/2000 9:25:43 PM

Spouse and I think that the Oscar nominations should be for pictures that were released two years ago. That way, cooler heads could prevail. I'm sure that many in the Academy already scratch their heads when recalling that Titanic took Best Picture and Best Director a couple of years ago.

5937. 109109 - 3/17/2000 9:37:09 AM

I saw that Eyes Wide Shut was being discussed in here a few days ago, and as is my practice, I didn't read anything on it until I'd seen it. I finished the film last evening. I apologize in advance for restating any previous observations. I look forward to going back and reading them.

The film shows us affluent married couple Tom Cruise, a doctor, and Nicole Kidman at a Christmas Party, during which he flirts with two models (and later revives the host's prostitute girlfriend, who has overdosed) and Kidman gets tipsy in the hands of a mysterious foreigner who does his damndest to get her away for a quickie. The experience leads to a later conversation, during which Kidman gets stoned and cruelly informs Cruise that she once was so overcome by desire for a stranger that she would have given away everything - husband, child, life - to be with the man. Cruise's buzz is
stripped, and stunned, he walks the streets of New York, bouncing from sexual odyssey to sexual odyssey.

The picture is ham-handed and shows a Stanley Kubrick not only painfully reliant on one trick in his bag (the endlessly repetitive floating tracking shot), but hopelessly out of touch with modern sexual issues. On the plus side, he does make a passable New York City out of London.

5938. 109109 - 3/17/2000 9:37:30 AM

Having read the Vanity Fair piece on Kubrick after his death, his disconnection with his subject matter is not unexpected, in that he appeared to have been a semi-recluse with little romantic experience.

Cruise and Kidman are like some 1950s couple dressed in 90s garb. After his wife's revelation, Cruise is menaced by the recurring image of her being ravished by the stranger, as if a wife sharing her fantasy with her husband is some great cataclysm. Yet, he
is strangely immune to the manner in which Kidman mocks and taunts him with her fantasy. Her cold and unloving manner - she roils on the floor pointing at Cruise, doing her level best to castrate him with her secret -appears to be no problem for Cruise. Rather, it is the image of someone slamming his wife that drives him batty.

As for Kidman, she's just a mean icy twist. We are introduced to her naked, then on the john, and things pretty much go downhill from there.

Then there is the plot, which is non-existent, making for a droning, tedious ride. Cruise does his damndest with what he's given, and he doesn't make a hash of it. He is particularly effective early, when he performs the minuet of explaining to his wife why he would never bedded the two models. She summarily shreds his rationale.

Kidman, however, is consistently awful throughout, forced to play drunk at the party, stoned during her humiliation of Cruise, and then, in a completely over-the-top bit, frightened by a sexual dream she experienced. She hits all the wrong chords, her drunk being sloppy, her stoner being vicious, and her post-dream persona annoyingly overwrought. This is a performance ruined by bad choices on her part.

5939. 109109 - 3/17/2000 9:37:38 AM

Kubrick's other forays into the pastiche of modern sexuality fail. The man who would get Kidman away for a quick hump at the Christmas Party is an unintentionally hilarious Hungarian. Any minute, you expect him to say, "I vant to suck your blood." The prostitutes who entice Cruise from NYC streets are Kate Moss hot, with hearts of gold to boot. The famed orgy scene is chortle inducing (everyone wears goofy yet frightening masks).

And if you were not inclined to laugh at certain parts, the film is accompanied by perhaps the most distracting soundtrack ever scored - a single note piano plinking that can make giggles into snorts.

I understand the film is based on an older work. It could have used a younger director. I was reminded of the incongruity of presumably celibate Catholic priests who advise young parishioners on marital issues. Including sex.

5940. Indiana Jones - 3/17/2000 9:42:15 AM

Haven't seen it, but sounds similar yet inferior to Zalman King's Redshoe Diaries series.

5941. cazart - 3/17/2000 10:01:10 AM

Jesus, Stinky.

The Red Shoe Diaries??? You mean soft porn for the Blockbuster video members? Next, you'll be telling us about the art of Shannon Tweed. Or how Andy Sidaris is the next Martin Scorsese.

5942. wonkers2 - 3/17/2000 10:29:19 AM

I'll take Radley H. Metzger over Zalman King any day. (I was once Recording Secretary of the Radley H. Metzger fan club of Michigan.)

5943. Indiana Jones - 3/17/2000 10:31:10 AM

wonkers: I've never heard of Radley, but I'll add him to my list. Zalman King makes the same movie over and over, and it's not particularly erotic.

5944. wonkers2 - 3/17/2000 11:07:23 AM

Radley H. Metzger was an early pioneer of soft core porn or "art films." I believe he preceded or was a contemporary of Russ Meyer. Later he made hard core porn movies under the nom de plume Jason Paris.

5945. Indiana Jones - 3/17/2000 11:21:35 AM

wonkers: If you're into "sex + action" trash, a must-see is "Never Too Young to Die," starring John Stamos (recently wed to Rebecca Romijn), Vanity, and Gene Simmons (yes, that Gene Simmons).

It is absolute mondo trash: Stamos is the son of a famous secret agent killed by lunatic Simmons (who just happens to be a hermaphrodite). Along the way to settling Simmons hash, Stamos beds Vanity in a fairly sexy bikini/shower/bedroom scene.

Godawful movie.

5946. janjon - 3/17/2000 11:47:50 AM

Isn't John Stamos the (still relatively young, I think) actor who showed up on a few sitcoms a number of years back?

Indy. Where in hell would you have to go to be able to even see a movie "starring" a non-entity like that.

5947. CalGal - 3/17/2000 11:49:24 AM

He was in Full House, and I think he was in the Beach Boy's Kokomo video, wasn't he?

5948. janjon - 3/17/2000 11:51:07 AM

Was Full House the one with those obnoxious twin girls? Actually, they weren't the obnoxious ones. It was the idiot adult actors around. Including the one who also did Funniest Videos or some crap like that? Bob something.

5949. CalGal - 3/17/2000 11:54:19 AM

Bob Saget. Yes, that's the one.

5950. CalGal - 3/17/2000 11:55:00 AM

Although I confess I loathed Ashley and Kate more than Saget et al.

5951. janjon - 3/17/2000 12:01:36 PM

I was just glad that my daughter's attraction to things like Full House lasted less than a year. I would have been tempted to get her her own tv had that gone on much longer.

5952. CalGal - 3/17/2000 12:06:56 PM

Oh, my son's had his own TV for years. But he always liked that Mr. Feeney TV show, with Fred Savage's younger brother. Never had to watch Full House all that much.

5953. Indiana Jones - 3/17/2000 1:27:52 PM

janjon: It likely went straight to video. I saw it a few years ago when Stamos was still on Full House and when I used to watch several videos a week.

Love of bad cinema is unfortunately in my blood.

5954. Indiana Jones - 3/17/2000 2:06:01 PM

Review:

5955. janjon - 3/17/2000 2:12:10 PM

Indy. Um, must admit I am distracted by that picture. What was I going to say.

Oh Yes.

A relief to know that a nobody like Stamos (and Richard Simmons. And I've never heard of Vanity or whoever that third name was) isn't getting funded to make a movie. Unless he's shacked up with an heiress. Or Bob Geffen.

5956. pseudoerasmus - 3/17/2000 3:08:52 PM

Jesus, has Julia Roberts gotten implants?

5957. Dantheman - 3/17/2000 3:12:20 PM

pe,
I think it's just a wonderbra.

5958. pseudoerasmus - 3/17/2000 3:14:46 PM

They certainly have got that artificial-geometric-globular look. Now, how to account for her clown mouth?

5959. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 3:16:00 PM

silicone.

5960. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 3:28:23 PM

Actually, I'll go on record as being a Julia Roberts fan ever since I saw her in Mystic Pizza.

5961. Indiana Jones - 3/17/2000 3:50:14 PM

Click on JR's wonderbra to read a review of her new movie. (Honestly, I didn't just post her picture for the cheesecake effect. Honestly.)

5962. Dantheman - 3/17/2000 3:51:56 PM

IJ,
Don't worry. Way worse (of both sexes, but mostly male) have been posted in the Cafe this week.

5963. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 4:14:52 PM

I did see Fantasia 2000 at the IMAX. While I can certainly complain about the failure of several of the pieces to mesh the animation with the music, and while the segments themselves were of varying quality, the film is flat out gorgeous on the huge IMAX screen. Even while I was rolling my eyes when whales began to fly, I was still agog at the detail and beauty in every shot. Highly recommended. Favorite segments were the Firebird Suite and Rhapsody in Blue. Least favorite was Donald Duck in Pomp and Circumstance.

5964. pseudoerasmus - 3/17/2000 4:18:44 PM

I suppose this may have something to do with not having been in a developed country for 7 months out of the past 12, but I don't recognise the names of most of the movies you're talking about.

5965. CalGal - 3/17/2000 4:21:31 PM

Opening This Week:

< tr>

Beyond the Mat: Behind the scenes look at professional wrestling. It's getting "good, but flawed" reviews--some disturbing scenes (one of the wrestlers brings his kids to his fights, and they freak out).

< tr>

Final Destination: Slasher pic. I'm not a fan of the genre, but reviews don't seem to be uniformly bad. Times didn't like it; Ebert did.

Last week's releases: Message # 5542

5966. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 4:22:29 PM

Well, a lot of critics have been calling this the best movie year in a couple of decades, so you have some catching up to do.

5967. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 4:25:11 PM

Washington Post, Newsweek, Time, LA Times, Salon, and several other publications have been gushing over EB, for what it is worth. Ebert's is the most negative I have seen.

5968. Dantheman - 3/17/2000 4:25:36 PM

Rask,
I'll agree that the flying whales set to The Pines of Rome was way much, making it my least favorite.

5969. CalGal - 3/17/2000 4:28:07 PM

Ebert's review surprised me.

5970. Dantheman - 3/17/2000 4:28:34 PM

Rask,
Both Philly papers disliked EB, saying that they wanted more outrage, comparing it to A Civil Action and finding it wanting.

5971. LadyChaos - 3/17/2000 4:34:12 PM

The Miami Herald critic, who I usually agree with, liked EB well enough. Does anyone have a link to the Ebert review? I'd be willing to bet that he tears into Soderbergh for "selling out," as I remember how much he gushed over Sex, Lies, and Videotape when it came out.

5972. CalGal - 3/17/2000 4:36:09 PM

Ebert's review

No, he only mentions Soderbergh once.

5973. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 4:37:04 PM

I had never heard "Pines of Rome" before, having only a "greatest hits" familiarity with classical music. I quite liked the music, and I as I said, the animation was gorgeous, so I would rank the segment a bit higher.

My rankings (Sorcerer's Apprentice excluded just because it didn't transfer well to an IMAX screen):

Firebird Suite/nymph and the volcano
Rhapsody in Blue/Hirschfeld
Carnival of the Animals/flamingos with yo yos
Shostokovich piano concerto/Tin Soldier
Pines of Rome/wacky whales
Beethoven's Fifth/good abtract butterflies vs evil abstract butterflies
Pomp and Circumstance/ Donald Duck

5974. CalGal - 3/17/2000 4:37:57 PM

He gets his facts wrong--Roberts' wardrobe is apparently more conservative than the real Brockovich.

I've noticed that the reviewers who hate it almost universally speak well of Civil Action, which I didn't like.

5975. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 4:41:04 PM

My take is that Erin Brokovich is basically a very standard Hollywood story: Plucky nobody takes on "the system" and wins. Critics who liked the film talk about how Soderbergh revitalizes a tired genre. Critics who dislike it talk about how trite the film is. But everyone praises Roberts.

5976. Dantheman - 3/17/2000 4:42:09 PM

Rask,
I agree with you on Sorceror's Apprentice not transferring well.

My rankings:
Shostokovich's Piano Concerto
Stravinsky's Firebird
Beethoven's Fifth
Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue (just not my favorite piece, I liked the animation)
Saint-Saens' Carnival des Animaux (a little too silly for my taste)
Elgar's Pomp and Circumstances
Respigni's Pines of Rome

5977. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 4:48:30 PM

I wonder how much it all is affected by whether you like the music. For instance, I barely recall the Shostokovich piece, and I love Gershwin. On the other hand, I have liked Beethoven's Fifth ever since I took piano lessons when I was 10, and I thought that segment was weak.

5978. Dantheman - 3/17/2000 4:50:51 PM

Rask,
I think that has a lot to do with it, although the abstractness of the Beethoven's Fifth animation may also explain a lot. Some people want more of a story and more coherence to the images.

5979. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 5:05:55 PM

Properly, isn't the Beethoven segment more minimalist than it is abstract? It actually does have a loose linear narrative, characters, and a dramatic resolution. Its just that the images all seemed to be quadralaterals or triangles. But yeah, the segment reminded me of the one with the whales, only the animation was much less interesting.

Regarding the flamingos, Disney animation is one of the few existing sources of good slapstick comedy. I quite enjoy slapstick, and I thought that brief segment was quite funny, although it certainly was just as long as should have been.

5980. Dantheman - 3/17/2000 5:15:48 PM

Rask,
I should have said the abstractness of the art style. Yes, the story wasn't abstract.

As for slapstick, when East is East comes out next month, you should see it. Some very good slapstick moments in it.

5981. Raskolnikov - 3/17/2000 5:17:02 PM

I'll keep an eye out for it. Thanks.

5982. Cellar Door - 3/17/2000 7:59:41 PM

A slightly abridged version of "The Pines of Rome" was used by Bruce Conner for his "A Movie"(1958) -- one the greatest films ever made; essential to understanding the nature of the cinema.

5983. Cellar Door - 3/17/2000 8:04:17 PM

I understand the film is based on an older work.

Read the Schnitzler original, Niner. It's called"Dream Novel," and Kubrick has wanted to make a film of it all his life.

It could have used a younger director.

A younger director would have made it a 20 minute porno loop.

I was reminded of the incongruity of presumably celibate Catholic priests who advise young parishioners on marital issues. Including sex.

"Presumably" is right! All the priests I've known knew nothing about marriage. Even gay marriage.

5984. joezan - 3/18/2000 12:24:31 AM

All the fanunche (gay) priests in the world, and I end up with you!...

- Mrs. Soprano, after her priest makes a move on her.

5985. joezan - 3/18/2000 12:25:49 AM

Uh....fannuche, that is.

(I think).

5986. glendajean - 3/20/2000 10:48:38 AM

I saw Tumbleweeds and Hurricane weekend, part of my quest each year to see all of the major Academy Award nominations before Oscar night.

Janet Teer (sp?) was outstanding in T, a swell little indie movie that looks at characters and settings often ignored at the movies. (I write that and remember that somebody compared this to movie to a Susan Sarandon movie released this year). Not sappy. The two main characters, a mother and her young daughter, drift from man to man across the country before settling down in San Diego. Michael J. Pollard makes an appearance as a nutty, ogling boss, and the director Gavin O'Conner (?) plays one of the woman's pick-up/settle down boy friends.

Denzel Washington deserves the nomination for his role in H. Excellent, powerful, nuanced. He and Tom Hanks both fill up a screen -- they are the great everyman actors of our time. Most of the controversy that I've heard about in this movie was that the Canadians got too much praise when others also helped to get Carter out of jail.

Forget the Canadians (although they are a strange bunch in the movie, oddly sweet and very unexplained). Washington was fantastic.

Dan Hadeya (sp?) played a composite character, a mean, bigoted, corrupt cop. Lovely bit of snarling.

5987. JudithAtHome - 3/20/2000 10:51:50 AM

GJ:

Janet McTeer...she is a fantastic actress but I doubt she will get the Academy Award. I noticed that Susan S. had a similar film but if I had a chance to see one or the other, I'd choose Tuimbleweeds.

5988. glendajean - 3/20/2000 10:58:06 AM

Right now, my personal choice is between Hilary Swank and Janet Teer or McTeer.

5989. janjon - 3/20/2000 11:06:37 AM

Yeah, I wrote something what seems like a long time ago comparing McTeer's performance and the movie to the comparable and distinctly inferior Sarandon/daughter movie. (Somebody who should know better had mentioned that she hadn't heard of Tumbleweeds). McTeer's performance equals Swank's in my humble opinion, but not much doubt in my mind as to whom will win.

5990. janjon - 3/20/2000 11:08:43 AM

Speaking of The Sopranos. I thought last night's episode was just terrific. Not a scene that wasn't riveting, even those involving Dr. Melli whom I find to be a drip. So much to like.

Since that program is rebroadcast about four times during the week and it is possible that a lot of people here haven't seen it yet, I won't go into details.

5991. JudithAtHome - 3/20/2000 11:18:59 AM

janjon:

I thought Gandolfini was fantastic last night, even better than usual.

5992. janjon - 3/20/2000 11:42:05 AM

Judith. Absolutely correct. In so many ways. And, some of the writing and setups were absolutely chilling. Tony's matter of fact explanation to the hapless shopowner that, of course, bankruptcy was the expected end. The look on his face when he was told by Melfi that it was the first time she had seen him scared. (Not the expected defiant bragaddacio but something much more subtle than that.) The hapless shopowner's putdown of the Sopranos in her brother's truck.

5993. JudithAtHome - 3/20/2000 11:50:06 AM

Carmella was no slouch last night, either.

5994. janjon - 3/20/2000 12:22:51 PM

Even the slob who is "dating" Tony's sister showed a lot more complexity than usual. And Junior, too.

And, didn't you think that image of Lavia coming down the stairwell in her elevator seat was just terrific?

5995. CalGal - 3/20/2000 12:30:45 PM

I haven't watched it yet, but last week's was the best thus far--primarily because they kept the loathsome Janice and Olivia out of it. From your comments, I fear I am to be disappointed again tonight.

BTW, I saw Erin Brockovich last night--was it PsychProf or Wonkers that said that Erin reminded him of me? I laughed when I read that, but there were three different scenes that may as well have been ripped from the Life of CalGal. Quite a shock.

None of the similarities involved Wonderbras or short skirts.

5996. CalGal - 3/20/2000 12:39:03 PM

THEY FOUND THE OSCARS!!!!!

Billy Crystal is going to have a field day.

5997. 109109 - 3/20/2000 12:58:14 PM

Cellar

I'd be interested in your thoughts on Salon's Beatty piece for the Thalberg award, especially the glaring omission of his performance in The Parallax View.

5998. theDiva - 3/20/2000 12:59:45 PM

yeah, like in a dumpster or something? I can hardly wait to hear the opening monologue.

5999. CalGal - 3/20/2000 1:04:06 PM

I bet the guy who turned them in gets a cameo, and Billy's wiping the Oscars off, goinng "eeeeeew" throughout.

6000. CalGal - 3/20/2000 1:04:16 PM

snag?

6001. janjon - 3/20/2000 1:04:24 PM

CalGal. Nah, you won't be disappointed. But, no spoilers or further quasi-spoilers from me. Enjoy.

6002. marshame - 3/20/2000 1:08:00 PM

I saw EB over the week-end, and think that the Ebert review linked above is right on. However, Aaron Eckhart (biker boy with a bod to match Julia's) in bed in a tiara made it worth my while!

6003. CalGal - 3/20/2000 1:08:09 PM

I don't know that The Parallax View is one of Beatty's best performances, but it does surprise me that it isn't mentioned as one of his early political movies.

6004. CalGal - 3/20/2000 1:09:27 PM

I thought Ebert's review missed the mark completely--it doesn't require liking the movie to at least get the point.

But Eckhart was a honey.

6005. janjon - 3/20/2000 1:09:56 PM

This guy was in bed with a crown on his head? Birth control takes a new twist, I guess.

6006. marshame - 3/20/2000 1:10:49 PM

And if the audience reaction was any indication, EB will bust $100 mil in no time! The lady next to me actually cheered, and then explained that she works for the EPA. Where was the EPA in Hinkley, CA, I wondered to myself(the movie town that got polluted by the PG&E).

6007. marshame - 3/20/2000 1:16:02 PM

Janjon

One of the best scenes is where Julia, wearing her tiara, re-eacts for boyfriend-biker-babe her interview for the Miss Wichita contest (which she won!). Her interview, with carefully choreographed arm gestures, was that her theme during her reign would be to end hunger and bring world peace for every man, woman,and child. But, she notes, that by the time she finished attending all the super market grand openings, she didn't have much time left to bring about world peace! Later, we see said tiara atop sexy boyfriend.

CalGal - which 3 scenes??

6008. marshame - 3/20/2000 1:16:39 PM

I could have done without the scenes of Albert Finney huffing and puffing as he tried to talk while eating.

6009. CalGal - 3/20/2000 1:19:07 PM

Oh, they are too personal. I can say that driven single moms seem to have a lot in common, though, regardless of education or income level. All I need is the biker boyfriend.

The story was pedestrian in parts, but the acting of the three leads was superb.

6010. marshame - 3/20/2000 1:26:06 PM

I knew it was mostly fantasy, though, when she comes home and finds him under the sink fixing her plumbong. This, of course, after he has whipped up a back yard barbeque for the kiddies when the evil female babysitter dropped them off.

6011. marshame - 3/20/2000 1:26:34 PM

That would be "plumbing" and not her plumb-bong.

6012. CalGal - 3/20/2000 1:35:09 PM

Hey. Don't fuss me with facts. I want the biker boyfriend fixing my, er, plumbing.

6013. CalGal - 3/20/2000 1:51:33 PM

My heavens. I forgot to post the Oscar ballot. Coming right up.

6014. CalGal - 3/20/2000 1:59:36 PM

Mote Oscar Contest

Oscar Ballot

Anyone can play, and no expertise is required. You don't have to have seen any of the movies in order to vote. In fact, it often improves your chances.

Just complete the form provided in the link. Don't forget to include your moniker. You can only enter once.

DO NOT POST YOUR RESPONSES..

Submit your ballot by clicking the "Send" button after you've completed the form.

Prizes: Amazon gift certificates go to those who pick the most winners. Amount of the certificate will vary based on how many people tie for first place.

I will announce the winners on Monday morning.

6015. CalGal - 3/20/2000 6:17:18 PM

Scott Loar said, in the WWII thread:

In fact, I cannot immediately recollect any instance in which a movie surpasses the book.

Jaws comes instantly to mind.

6016. stostosto - 3/20/2000 6:23:15 PM

Another one is The Little Drummer Girl which substitutes clarity and effectiveness for Le Carré's annoying longwindedness and tristesse.

6017. CalGal - 3/20/2000 6:24:44 PM

It's not a well-known book, but No Way To Treat a Lady was a hideous William Goldman novel that made a neat little film with George Segal, Lee Remick, and Rod Steiger.

6018. CalGal - 3/20/2000 6:25:28 PM

Get Shorty was arguably better than the book, since it fixed the problem with the ending.

6019. stostosto - 3/20/2000 6:42:09 PM

How about The Ten Commandments?

6020. stostosto - 3/20/2000 6:47:00 PM

CalGal
Nifty Oscar Contest. When are they due?

6021. CalGal - 3/20/2000 6:47:04 PM

I don't know the author personally, but I've heard it's not a good idea to annoy him.

6022. CalGal - 3/20/2000 6:48:05 PM

Oh, they can be submitted any time up to the moment the Best Supporting Actor is announced, which is usually about 6:15 PST.

6023. stostosto - 3/20/2000 6:49:20 PM

Today?

6024. CalGal - 3/20/2000 6:52:38 PM

Oh, lord. I suppose that only a geocentric soul like me would assume that everyone knows when the Oscars are.

This Sunday. I'll change the heading to make that clear. Thanks.

6025. stostosto - 3/20/2000 7:01:20 PM

Thanks, Cal!

I took the ballot and am looking very much forward to getting my bets confirmed.

This one for "Short Live Action":

Henrik Ruben Genz, Michael W. Horsten for Bror, min bror

Is that a Danish one? Clicking it gave me only Whooooops!'es.

The title and the names suggest so, but I haven't heard of it. (If it is Danish, I will shortly when the media do their usual heating up over the Great Danish Hope).

6026. CalGal - 3/20/2000 7:06:30 PM

Bror, min bror. Yes, it's Danish.

Sorry about the link--I just copied the data from the IMD's list of entries and created a quick form. I didn't do a quality control check on the links.

6027. DanDillon - 3/20/2000 8:27:20 PM

Thanks for the poll, CG. It's nice to see al that programming expertise put to good use.

6028. SnowOwl - 3/20/2000 10:29:10 PM

Thanks for the poll, Calgal, although I haven't seen any of the movies.

2001 is better, I think, than The Sentinel, and I preferred The Gofather (the movie) to the book.

6029. ScottLoar - 3/20/2000 10:51:10 PM

"In fact, I cannot immediately recollect any instance in which a movie surpasses the book."

Go ahead.

6030. CalGal - 3/21/2000 2:36:07 AM

I saw The Sopranos, and Richie and Janice's sex scene.

Two loathesome little shits doing it doggy style, the guy with a gun to the woman's temple while she says, "Oh, baby, you're the boss."

That's an image I didn't need, man. Certainly not after dinner.

Thankfully, Jen's yumyum pic in the Cafe is still current.

6031. stostosto - 3/21/2000 4:17:03 AM

SnowOwl
I agree on the Godfather. The book is OK, actually, but the films are extraordinary. Some of my favourites. All three of them.

6032. stostosto - 3/21/2000 5:05:24 AM

Re Julia Roberts in #5954:

My reaction was exactly like pseuder's #5956. And my heart sank.

I saw Runaway Bride the other day, btw. What a total failure. The plot, the dialogue, the Gere.

If there was any true quality control at the studio that made it, it wouldn't have passed stage 1. No one should be allowed to misuse Julia Roberts like that. And she shouldn't allow them.

I am glad her new film gets good reviews. But I am unnerved by them breasts.

6033. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 11:00:07 AM

"In fact, I cannot immediately recollect any instance in which a movie surpasses the book."

A few have already been mentioned, but I would say Jaws, The Godfather, Psycho, Touch of Evil (based on a novel called Badge of Evil), Bridges of Madison County (by all accounts, never bothered to read the book), Blade Runner (based on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep), L.A. Confidential, The Dead Zone, and most of the early Bond films (particularly Goldfinger and From Russia with Love).

I am sure there are a lot more that I don't know about since I haven't read the source material. But generally, books are always better than movies when the source is a literary classic, and movies have a high potential to be better than the book when the book is a melodrama or some kind of pulpy action, horror, or science fiction film.

6034. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 11:02:15 AM

According to Entertainment Weekly, Roberts' breasts were not artificial, but were accentuated by some sort of complex undergarment scheme, sorta like a high tech Wonderbra.

6035. Indiana Jones - 3/21/2000 11:03:24 AM

The Dead Zone is a great choice...not one I would have thought of, but definitely true.

6036. CalGal - 3/21/2000 11:04:25 AM

Yes, I thought of Bridges last night--I didn't read it either, but I was surprised at how effective the movie was.

Good call on Godfather and 2001, Snow.

I'd also add Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

6037. JudithAtHome - 3/21/2000 11:14:41 AM

Did you hear that Jerry Orbach is suing eBay for "idenity theft"? They auctioned off 2 of his previous contracts and his SSN was on both...

6038. stostosto - 3/21/2000 11:16:24 AM

Rask #6034
What a relief!

6039. Indiana Jones - 3/21/2000 11:23:06 AM

I once saw Julia Roberts on Letterman talking about Cindy Crawford's Esquire cover for the "Women We Love" issue. If you remember the cover, Cindy is nude but from the side, sort of in a fetal position that takes up the whole thing. Julia said she was offered the cover but didn't want to do it because they wanted cheesecake, and she thought that it sent the wrong message about women.

People are quite frequently hypocrites, but it would surprise me to learn that Julia (at this stage in her career) would seek breast augmentation.

6040. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 11:23:43 AM

When I read L.A. Confidential last year, I was quite surprised that I liked the film better. While the book does a much better job of portraying the seediness and corruption in the LAPD (the movie rarely uses the racial epithets which the book uses profusely, for instance), the book is largely an exercise in seeing how complex of a crime can be created and unraveled. There is a summary chapter in the book where I laughed out loud at the number of preposterous coincidences tying the whole thing together. It also is much less dramatically satisfying. And Ellroy's abrupt prose style ("kick in the door. shotgun up. he moves. trigger. blast tears his face off") grows quickly grating.

6041. JudithAtHome - 3/21/2000 11:28:10 AM

IJ:

I guess the cakes Julia currently has on display are not cheesey...more tastefully shoved in our faces than Cindys, huh?

6042. Indiana Jones - 3/21/2000 11:35:57 AM

Judith: It's a question of degree, of course. I'm guessing the movie, which I haven't seen, isn't entirely about Julia Roberts's breasts. These are just the stills that promoters have opted to release.

The magazine cover was different because it was a men's magazine with the theme "women we love." I don't think she wanted to convey the message that the main reason men love women--however true it may be--is that we like nice gazongas.

And breast augmentation is even beyond that. IMO women should indulge in such radical solutions only when they're disfigured or what have you. (Of course it's none of my business.)

I wouldn't consider a penis implant...though that would be a case of gilding the lily, anyway.

6043. janjon - 3/21/2000 11:50:35 AM

Well, yes, the sex scene I could have done without. BUT, it led to more development of whatever his name is's character ANd a bit more of a clue (as if we needed it) that Janice has, um, some rather fraticidal intentions. Her role (and all the hooey about finding Mom's hidden millions or whatever) grew thin quickly,I think.

6044. JudithAtHome - 3/21/2000 11:56:23 AM

I wonder where all that nice furniture in Livias house came from? I don't recall she had such...nice...stuff before. I thought Tony sold all her things or moved what he could salvage to the "residence" she was in; this stuff looks more like Janice has picked up decorating hints from Carmella.

I was sickened by Janice and Ritchies bout on the couch; waaaay too much info.

6045. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 12:04:33 PM

re Message # 6033 but I don't usually read melodramas or go out of my way to see pulpy action, horror or science fiction films unless I'm imprisoned in an airplane for 14 hours (frequently I must say). In fact, I preferred the novel Godfather to the movie but quibbling over taste will not serve the argument that I cannot immediately recollect any instance in which a movie surpasses the book exactly because the book usually engages our imagination more stongly than watching a movie in which the viewer is more passive. But I thought that was the basic difference between reading a book and seeing a movie. A simple and ready comparison would be Sphere the novel as compared to that movie.

Now, given enough time and intention I can probably think of some rare instance of my experience in which the movie was better than the book, but I'm not moved to do so and somehow I think few would be interested.

Ah, I've just thought of an instance: When the book is based on the movie.

6046. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 12:06:03 PM

6047. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 12:06:30 PM

Toys, my mistake.

6048. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 12:07:11 PM

6049. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 12:07:37 PM

I do need help.

6050. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 12:10:28 PM

Watching and appreciating a good film is not a more passive experience than reading a book -- unless one merely stares dumb at the screen or moves one's lips while reading.

I think Raskolnikov said it well: the better the novel, the less likely that it can be surpassed by its film adaptation.

I know of one adaptation which was better than the book -- I, Claudius. The bravura performances in the television version more than made up for what is essentially a silly accumulation of details trying to pass as a Proustian memoir.

6051. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 12:11:12 PM

Watching and appreciating a good film is not a more passive experience than reading a book -- unless one merely stares dumb at the screen or moves one's lips while reading.

I think Raskolnikov said it well: the better the novel, the less likely that it can be surpassed by its film adaptation.

I know of one adaptation which was better than the book -- I, Claudius. The bravura performances in the television version more than made up for a silly accumulation of details which Robert Graves tried to pass off as a semi-Proustian memoir.

6052. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 12:14:43 PM

#6051 is the intended version.

6053. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 12:43:13 PM

Scott: when I was younger, I read a lot of Stephen King books, pulpy science fiction novels, and murder mysteries, so that may be why our experience diverge.

Basically, I think books deal much better with internal conflict and characterization, and movies deal better with external conflict and setting.

6054. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 12:46:32 PM

Has anyone here seen "Mountains of the Moon"?

I am currently reading (actually listening to a tape of it in my car while driving) a biography of Richard Burton ("The Devil Drives"). I just finished the chapter discussing the conflict between Burton and Speke following Speke's discovery of Lake Victoria, and I thought it would make a great movie. So, I looked up Burton on the IMDB and was appalled to find that someone plagiarized my idea 10 years before I thought of it.

6055. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 12:51:37 PM

"movies deal better with external conflict and setting"

But the very best films use external conflict and settings to suggest interior states.

6056. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 12:52:47 PM

Also, I've found that many movies of even literary classics can be valuable complements to the originals, not necessarily attempts at being substitutes.

Yes. I've seen Mountains of the Moon. It's passable.

6057. Jenerator - 3/21/2000 12:52:57 PM

Rask,

I went to Bletchley Park this weekend and was told that they're making the story of cracking the enigma code into a movie starring Kate Winslet, predictably titled Enigma. Have you heard anything about it? It's a fascinating story and I hope that the movie portrayal of the actual story is first and foremost historically correct, and is also done tastefully by carefully selecting an appropriate cast. I wonder who they'll have as the eccentric Alan Turing.

6058. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 1:08:53 PM

Message # 6050 gives a typically narrow and extreme interpretation to my remarks yet admits of but one instance in which the movie (actually a BBC serial) is better than the book. On the other hands the BBC's quickie adaption of other novels does sometimes fail miserably even if framed by the majesty of Masterpiece Theatre.

Of course, anyone who believes movies actively engage the imagination more than books can say such things. Yes, the technical wonders of prop shops can make warfare on outer Uranus come to temporary life and so I suppose in that respect a movie can beggar the imagination of a reader, but that's the consequence of the text. In general though, I stand by my remarks come what nonsense may come my way.

6059. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 1:12:26 PM

And I thought The Mountains of the Moon (which I've seen) was based on Alan Moorehead's The White Nile (1960, Harper & Brothers) which I have here at hand.

6060. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 1:12:31 PM

>But the very best films use external conflict and settings to suggest interior states.

I completely agree with that (speaking of which, I had the pleasure of finally seeing a 70mm print of Lawrence of Arabia in a theater a couple of weeks ago).

6061. CalGal - 3/21/2000 1:13:46 PM

Is it making the rounds again? I saw the restored version when it first came out, but am always up for another viewing.

6062. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 1:13:52 PM

"And I thought The Mountains of the Moon (which I've seen) was based on Alan Moorehead's The White Nile (1960, Harper & Brothers) which I have here at hand."

The DVD information I found says it was based on a novel called "Burton and Spekes".

6063. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 1:14:18 PM

I should say dramatically based, as the movie took liberty with fact, which is all right as long as one doesn't refer to the movie for historical accuracy.

6064. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 1:16:11 PM

Well then, so be it. But The White Nile is a better read and more accurate than seeing The Mountains of the Moon, and I daresay engages one's imagination more even if others assume one is a slow or dumb reader.

6065. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 1:17:00 PM

Loar, you have a serious complex. I was not interpreting your remarks.

On the other hand, you seem to believe that I said movies engage the imagination more than books, which I didn't.

How about paintings? Do they engage the imagination less than text? I say visual art engages the imagination differently, not more or less.

6066. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 1:17:59 PM

Jen: "Enigma" is based on the Robert Harris ("Fatherland")novel. It is a fictionalized thriller using the breaking of Enigma as the setting. I haven't read the book, so I don't even know if Turing is in it. It stars Winslet, Dougray Scott, and Saffron Burrows. Don't know much more about it.

6067. CalGal - 3/21/2000 1:20:35 PM

I loathe Saffron Burrows.

6068. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 1:21:41 PM

"Is it making the rounds again? I saw the restored version when it first came out, but am always up for another viewing."

Yes. I missed the film when it was re-released 10 years ago, and had only seen it on videotape (the first time was unletterboxed on a 13" TV screen, and I was pretty underwhelmed, but I knew I didn't see it optimally so I bought the letterboxed VHS tape when it came out, and liked it a lot better).

6069. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 1:25:42 PM

"Message # 6050 gives a typically narrow and extreme interpretation to my remarks yet admits of but one instance in which the movie (actually a BBC serial) is better than the book"

But I was not arguing that adaptations of books are frequently better than the books themselves. I was arguing that appreciating a visual artwork is not necessarily more passive than reading a book, just as reading a book is not necessarily more active than watching a movie or looking at a painting.

6070. CalGal - 3/21/2000 1:29:42 PM

I'll have to look for it at the Castro.

BTW, Netflix hasn't shipped me any movies in over ten days. My movies have been in "Ships Next" status for five days--it took that long for them to get to that point. Emailing them doesn't work well, since it takes 7 days for a response.

Is this common, or not? The first group of movies was fine, but now it's a mess.

I'm wondering if they hold up the queue when something is Out of Stock? If so, they should cut that shit out.

6071. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 1:31:54 PM

I admit to being complex but a serious complex? No.

Of course paintings engage the imagination differently than text, just as prose and poetry engage differently, and can do so more acutely. But the topic was movies which, in general, are entertainment, two and more hours spent in a dark arena where the audience suspends disbelief to wander about where the camera takes them. The general run of movies is as the general run of popular novels, pap, and the popularity of movies cannot rise above entertainment value no matter how elevated the discourse on movie minutiae or speculation on actors, directors, whatever. But I go further by saying that the movie most often treats the novel shabbily not only by design to stimulate and hold an audience for 2 1/2 hours, but the very medium of moving pictures does not usually engage one's participation more acutely than the printed word.

6072. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 1:33:57 PM

Cal: by any chance, are all your "ships next" films not due for release for quite some time? Usually I have run into this problem is when the film at the top of my queue wasn't released yet (The Limey was in that status for two days before finally shipping after the release date).

"I'm wondering if they hold up the queue when something is Out of Stock? If so, they should cut that shit out."

No. If it is out of stock, they just ship you the next film in your queue, keeping the out of stock film in the number one spot.

6073. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 1:40:48 PM

Loar, name some serious films you have liked.

6074. Jenerator - 3/21/2000 1:40:49 PM

Rask,

I hope that Enigma turns out well. I heard that it was a film adaptation of the BBC series Station X. (Which is probably based on the book you mentioned!)

6075. CalGal - 3/21/2000 1:41:29 PM

No. If it is out of stock, they just ship you the next film in your queue, keeping the out of stock film in the number one spot.

No, I'm pretty sure this is the problem. The first movie in my queue was Out of Stock last week, so I moved it. That should have been fine, but just after all my movies were queued to "Ships Next", the movie "A Man for all Seasons" went Out of Stock. And my movies were in "Ships Next" status for the next four days.

It's probably a software bug.

6076. PelleNilsson - 3/21/2000 1:43:24 PM

Rask

Correction about the Richard Harris's book. It is called Enigma. It is very interestering as far as the code breaking story goes but there is a quite silly love story tacked on to it, probably at the insistence of the publishers. In my view, the quality of the film will depend on how these components are balanced. One fears that the code breaking will be reduced to a background activity-

Fatherland is also by Harris. It is set in Germany in the 60's under the assumption that Germany won the war and Berlin has been transformed by Hitler's and Speer's megalomaniac buildings. It is a kind of a detective story. I'll not divulge the plot in case someone wants to read it. It's a good read.

6077. PelleNilsson - 3/21/2000 1:44:17 PM

toys

6078. PelleNilsson - 3/21/2000 1:46:47 PM

Scott

I too have The White Nile. I like it a lot and re-read it now and then because it's so rich in detail.

6079. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 2:28:31 PM

Pelle: what were you correcting?

6080. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 3:15:01 PM

Serious films I've liked? I'll give you one that immediately comes to mind, The Deer Hunter, most especially for some rare scenes which capture absolutely the juxtaposition of despair and hope in extreme situations, where they're forced by their captors to play Russian roulette. I also very much like the Chinese film The Old Well (Chinese villagers dig a well) and Kurosawa's 47 Ronin, and much of Apocalypse Now (second of the only two recent war movies I was able to watch from beginning to end without ceasing in disgust). There is a raft of other, lesser movies but titles escape me now.

6081. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 3:24:37 PM

Do you mean Kurosawa's Seven Samurai, or a different director's 47 Ronin?

6082. PelleNilsson - 3/21/2000 3:28:03 PM

Rask

I see now that I misread your post (I missed the brackets around "Fatherland"). Sorry about that. As a consequence, my post is largely devoid of meaning.

6083. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 3:35:26 PM

No, not Kurosawa's Seven Samurai which was fair enough, but (so I take your word for it) a different director's 47 Ronin, which I first saw on the education television channel about 1960 or so when I was around 12. The film was beautiful.

6084. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 3:39:06 PM

Perhaps some of the mavens here can find the film, probably made in the early 50's.

6085. SnowOwl - 3/21/2000 3:48:51 PM

You may mean The 47 Ronin, by Ichikawa, which was made in 1954.

6086. CalGal - 3/21/2000 3:51:49 PM

Chushingura, directed by Tatsuo Ohsone, 1954. According to the IMD, anyway.

6087. SnowOwl - 3/21/2000 3:54:47 PM

My bad. I was reading the wrong thing. Yes, Cal, it is Ohsone. And I haven't seen the film.

6088. CalGal - 3/21/2000 3:55:26 PM

Actually, I just kept checking, and I think Scott may mean The Loyal 47 Ronin, or Genroku chushingura. It looks like it has been more generally released.

This starred Utaemon Ichikawa, and was directed by Kenji Mizoguchi.

If it's not that one, then the 1954 one that both Snow and I refer to is probably the best bet.

6089. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 3:56:30 PM

There was also the Mizoguchi version, which I recently saw on DVD (which is why I brought it up - I didn't much care for the film, and I was trying to find out why anyone would have thought it was fantastic). There have been many versions of the film, as I understand it.

6090. CalGal - 3/21/2000 3:58:20 PM

Snow, I hadn't seen your first post when I posted on 47 Ronin, or I would have mentioned it. I think the second one is the better bet--Maltin doesn't know of the first one that both you and I mentioned, and Maltin knows of damn near everything (regardless of whether the reviews are good or not). The second one seems the better bet for showing up on PBS in the 60s.

6091. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 4:01:08 PM

There is also the Inagaki version from 1962. It is evidently also widely available. It is in color. The Mizoguchi version is black and white, and very long.

6092. CalGal - 3/21/2000 4:04:51 PM

Yeah, I just went and searched on Chushingura and saw the Inagaki one. Those two seem to be the most widely released--and the only two that Maltin has heard of.

6093. marshame - 3/21/2000 4:07:22 PM

That goes double for me.

The one movie ENDING that I thought was better than the book was Bonfire of the Vanities. But no book could match Wolfe's way with words.

6094. SnowOwl - 3/21/2000 4:14:52 PM

Talking of books mae into movies, has anyone seen Regeneration? It's due to be shown by our Film Society fairly soon and I'm a little loathe to go and see it. I thought the book was beautiful and horrible and haunting and I can't imagine how that could be captured on film.

6095. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 4:19:29 PM

Netflix has both the Inagaki and Mizoguchi versions. I just added the Inagaki one to my queue, now up to 245 films. Mizoguchi's film seemed hamstrung by the low budgets dictated by its WWII production dates. It is very setbound and talky. I caught Inagaki's Samurai Trilogy a few months ago, and I am curious as to how he would handle it. He also knows how to stage a fight scene.

6096. theDiva - 3/21/2000 4:20:51 PM

My God, Marsha, you got all the way through that? I couldn't stand it past the first 20 minutes.

6097. CalGal - 3/21/2000 4:21:30 PM

Snow,

NY Times review of Regeneration.

Sounds interesting.

6098. marshame - 3/21/2000 4:26:09 PM

Diva

You asked: "My God, Marsha, you got all the way through that? I couldn't stand it past the first 20 minutes."

Do you mean the book or the movie? I loved the book. I admit I was put off by the casting of Melanie Griffith (who can't act her way out of a paper bag, in my opinion.) And she never could say "Sherman" right. But anyhow, the ending in the movie was superior and redeemed the movie as far as I was concerned, although it did bomb at the box office.

6099. marshame - 3/21/2000 4:27:53 PM

I am interested in seeing Tumbleweed, although I don't think it's still playing anywhere in Dallas. Anyone see it with an opinion?

6100. CalGal - 3/21/2000 4:29:29 PM

There is a book on the making of Bonfire of the Vanities that is supposed to be pretty good.

GJ just saw Tumbleweeds, I believe, and spoke well of it. Check back 20-40 posts.

6101. theDiva - 3/21/2000 4:30:45 PM

The movie. I absolutely loved the book (but then, I'm a MAJOR Tom Wolfe fan) and couldn't stand the thought of Melanie Griffith as Maria.

6102. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 4:37:52 PM

The theme of 47 ronin (the ones who avenged themselves on a man who had forced their master to commit suicide)
is a classic Japanese theme found in plays, movies, and literature. Its most famous manifestation is a Kabuki play.

I'm surprised the pop culture mavens didn't pick up on the reference to these in that middling movie with Robert DeNiro.

6103. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 4:41:07 PM

Loar, if you count Apocalypse Now among the films you've liked most, and if (as I presume) you don't think it comparable with or superior to the novel on which it's loosely based, then would it be correct to say in your opinion virtually no films attain the quality of even so middling a work as Heart of Darkness?

6104. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 4:42:47 PM

"I'm surprised the pop culture mavens didn't pick up on the reference to these in that middling movie with Robert DeNiro."

What precisely do you mean? A character explained, at length, the plot & theme of the 47 Ronin in the DeNiro film. DeNiro made a comment to the effect that he was much like one of the Ronin (or someone made that comment to him).

6105. theDiva - 3/21/2000 4:42:52 PM

Pseuder

It was so obvious noone bothered mentioning it. It would be like mentioning that West Side Story is based on Romeo and Juliet.

6106. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 4:43:49 PM

"then would it be correct to say in your opinion virtually no films attain the quality of even so middling a work as Heart of Darkness?"

Jeeze. "Middling"? Heart of Darkness is a wonderful book, Pseudo.

6107. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 4:47:23 PM

Pelle:

Both Fatherland and Enigma are good beach reads. The writing is decent enough, but both seek to make the revelation of a well-known historical event the "Big Suprise" at each book's end. These events might be a surprise to the *characters*, but they're no surprise to the readers, and both books suffer due to this rather large conceptual flaw.

And I dispute that Enigma has a "tacky love story" randomly tossed into the mix. The love/obsession story is intrinsic to the plot; that's not the kind of thing that's thrown in as an afterthought.

6108. SnowOwl - 3/21/2000 4:47:33 PM

Cal,

Thanks for the review. It does look as though it will be worth seeing. I'd read elsewhere some comparisons with Saving Private Ryan, and that rather put me off, since the two are not comparable I don't think. The book certainly is well worth reading, if you haven't already. In fact, she wrote a trilogy, now known as the Regeneration Trilogy and the three books are all excellent

6109. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 4:48:38 PM

It's a good book, but middling in the scheme of things.

6110. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 4:50:20 PM

That said, Enigma just didn't give me the details on code-breaking I was looking for. I love the whole notion of Bletchley Park, mathematicians and linguists working with primitive computers ("bombes") to break Nazi codes, and much of this did, indeed, seem to be going on in background.

Fatherland was more successful in painting a detailed portrait of the world the characters inhabited. It's sort of a Nazified Gorky Park. (Harris seems to emulate Martin Cruz Smith's dreary (but enjoyable) writing style as well.)

6111. CalGal - 3/21/2000 4:51:15 PM

Ace--did you read Crytonomicon?

6112. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 4:51:56 PM

No. Never even heard of it.

6113. marshame - 3/21/2000 4:53:35 PM

CG

It may have only seemed like 20 or 40 posts, but it was actually Message # 5986! Thanks for the brief review, GJ.

6114. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 4:53:50 PM

Don't bother correcting your typo, by the way. I understand you meant "Cryptonomicon."

6115. CalGal - 3/21/2000 4:54:32 PM

Really? Lordy, we talk about it here enough. Neal Stephenson?

I love the whole notion of Bletchley Park, mathematicians and linguists working with primitive computers ("bombes") to break Nazi codes, and much of this did, indeed, seem to be going on in background.

Much of the book involves just this.

6116. CalGal - 3/21/2000 4:56:25 PM

There's a link to the first six chapters in the Books thread, if you want to check it out.

6117. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 5:01:59 PM

Reviews:

Mission to Mars One and a half stars out of Five

I would have walked out of this movie had I not been there with my girlfriend.

I don't know where to start. Let's start with general criticisms:

It's boring.

It's unconvincing.

The characters are simultaneously broad cliched archetypes (which generally means entertainment at the cost of believability) but are also dull and dreary. Not a winning combination.

The film strains to tell you that its One Black Guy, Don Cheadle, is a GENIUS of some sorts, but of course it's ultimately the White Guy (Sinise) who figures everthing out.

It is, indeed, a pastiche of every successful or semi-successful sci-fi film of the past thirty years. More on that later.

Finally, the "Big Revelation" is rather trite and obvious and doesn't even make a hell of a lot of sense.

On to more specific criticisms:

DePalma is a FILM GEEK, not a director. He can't help himself but to make little juvenile references to great films of the past, rather than concentrate entirely on making a great film in the present. There are loads of little "jokes" in the film --

-- Cheadle makes a sculpture of the alien cyclone monster (yeah, you heard that right) out of wires and such, *just like* Richard Dreyfus made sculptures of the Devil's Tower in Close Encounters.

-- 2001 featured a tall black Monolith with a width of four and a height of nine (proportionately). And in M2M, a door in a white room opens, revealing a jet-black space beyond. This black doorway has a lenght of about nine and a height of about four -- a black monolith laid on its side. Yuk, yuk, yuk. I went to film school. I "get it."

6118. theDiva - 3/21/2000 5:05:17 PM

DePalma is a FILM GEEK, not a director. He can't help himself but to make little juvenile references to great films of the past, rather than concentrate entirely on making a great film in the present.... Yuk, yuk, yuk. I went to film school. I "get it."

You hit the nail on the head, Ace. Truer words were never spoken. The guy is a major hack.

6119. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 5:06:55 PM

-- 2001 also featured a blindlingly-white room near the end. So does M2M.

-- 2001 and Close Encounters both feature a single human travelling back to the aliens' homeworld. Guess what? So does M2M.

-- 2001 featured a metaphorical "dance" (to the tune of Swan Lake) between a space station and a shuttle docking with it. M2M features a literal dance in zero gravity between Tim Robbins and his wife.

And on, and on, and on.

The structure of M2M is unecessarily convoluted. Here's the plot: Cheadle & some Russians go to Mars. They get attacked by an alien cyclone monster and Earth loses communication with the Mars outpost. So Tim Robbins, Gary Sinise, a chick, and Jerry O'Connell go to Mars to rescue them and find out what happened.

In case you're keeping track, that means that the sixtieth minute of the movie (Gary Sinise arrives on Mars) occurs, in "real time," at least one year after the beginning of the film.

6120. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 5:10:18 PM

"I'm surprised the pop culture mavens didn't pick up on the reference to these in that middling movie with Robert DeNiro."

I am with Ace. Not that I am ignorant enough to have even needed the help, particularly in a film titled "Ronin", but the story of the 47 Ronin is explicitly mentioned, not just "referenced", in the film.

6121. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 5:12:28 PM

So the complaint is about my use of the word "reference", rather than "blatantly advertised explanation of the title"?

6122. PelleNilsson - 3/21/2000 5:13:09 PM

Ace

We disagree about the love affair in Enigma. I definitely get a "tacked-on feeling". But I don't want to make an issue out of it. I liked the code breaking stuff. Perhaps I appreciate it more because I'm generally interested in the subject. I also appreciated the vivid evocation of the dreary war-time England with dreary boarding rooms and spam for dinner.

Fatherland is also strong in atmosphere. Your comparison with Gorky Park is apt. I, too, picked up the plot fairly early because the characters go under their real names. But for many, they would have been unfamiliar, and then, I suppose, there is more suspense.

BTW, when are you going to post in the WWII thread? Politics is a bit inbred and sterile right now, isn't it?

6123. stostosto - 3/21/2000 5:18:14 PM

Ace:

"I would have walked out of this movie had I not been there with my girlfriend. "

Forcing your girlfriend to watch a bad movie that you'd never endure yourself. What's going on in that relationship, man?

Yeah, I know: "Hardball, baby. "

6124. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 5:19:44 PM

I watched "Drowning Mona" this weekend. My mom came into town with one day's notice, and agreed to watch the Little Raskol while my wife and I went out on a date. We had a glorious time (Freedom!), despite the fact that the movie was pretty damned lame. Dinner went late, or we would have caught Erin Brokovich instead.

There are a handful of truly wonderful moments, that are throwaways. There is one scene where the father mechanic turns to his daughter and says "are you going to charge him double?" She says "damn right", and we get a brief shot of the father beaming with paternal pride. But the film is ineptly edited, with shots being cut off too soon or too late for the intended effect, and with huge storytelling holes which just scream "missing scene". The ending sucks, and I had most of the mystery figured out 40 seconds into the film.

6125. CalGal - 3/21/2000 5:20:04 PM

Pseudo, I think the complaint is due to your implied rebuke that we missed something.

6126. marshame - 3/21/2000 5:21:06 PM

Rasko

Drowning Mona sounds to me like "Other People's Money - Take 2". No?

6127. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 5:25:42 PM

"So the complaint is about my use of the word "reference", rather than 'blatantly advertised explanation of the title'?"

Psuedo, you asked why we didn't "pick up on it". Any inbred mountain man can pick up on something which is explicitly described in the film, so excuse me if I feel a tad insulted.

6128. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 5:27:27 PM

marsh: Drowning Mona is nothing like OPM. It is more like Murder on the Orient Express combined with Beverly Hillbillies.

6129. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 5:30:37 PM

Mission to Mars, continued...

So, we have a film with three blast-offs and two landings. Too many blast-offs and landings for one film. Plus, blast-offs have been done; you can't outdo the blast-off in Apollo 13. So what does DePalma choose to do?

He shows us ZERO blast-offs and landings (well, he shows some very quick shots of blast-offs from Mars at the end). The rest of the time he simply CUTS to Mars, skipping the blast offs and landings. It's very odd, in a movie about space exploration, to simply CUT to Mars, as if you're CUTTING to the local 7-11.

Plus, the film is loaded with bad economics, bad science, and bad logic:

Bad economics: The Mars Mission Control Center is based on the "World Space Station" orbiting the earth. I know why DePalma did this -- to differentiate HIS Mission Control from the MC in Apollo 13 -- but think about it: Does this make any kind of fucking sense? No, it does not.

Bad science: Gary Sinise realizes the Alien Code -- a mathematical representation of a single double-helix strand of DNA -- is missing "two chromosomes" at the end.

Ummmmm... DNA makes up chromosomes, chromosomes DO NOT make up DNA. What's missing is two BASE PAIRS, not two chromosomes.

Bad Logic: (SPOILER) When the Garden-of-Eden, warm, watery Mars is destroyed by an asteroid, the Martians leave the galazy for a planet far, far away. Apparently ignoring the equally-paradisical Earth which is just a million or so miles north.

Before you say: But they didn't want to interfere with Earth's development!!! Then why did they deliberately seed earth with their own DNA? Makes no fucking sense on multiple levels.

6130. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:37:06 PM

Pseudoerasmus,

I'll bet that if I gave Disney's Alice in Wonderland as a memorable movie you'd feel obliged to point out it was a rather famous tale by Lewis Carroll.

Yes, since the incident in 1699 and the obligatory suicide of the 47 Ronin a year later it has been a story repeated and depicted again and again for the virtue of loyalty and bravery shown; the cemetary of the 47 Ronin and son is well-visited in Japan by salarymen in business. So what? I liked the film version (black and white all, and not talky or stagey) I mentioned because of its spare dialogue and beautiful cinematography as well as the theme itself which appealed to a small boy and now an older man.

Yes, Apocalypse Now is loosely based on Heart of Darkness but I surely don't confuse the two, nor mistake familiarity with the one as being conversant with the other.

6131. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 5:40:53 PM

Review 2: Runaway Bride (one star out of five; from what I saw)

I can't fully review this film, since I stopped watching after twenty minutes. (My girlfriend, trooper that she is, forced herself to finish the movie, since we had paid for it.)

Let's just say:

-- it's not funny.

--it's not credible at all.

-- the script is amateurish; plot & character development are sledgehammer-subtle but simultaneously boring.

-- The Gere character is not likeable. He commits a major sin --vilifying an "Ordinary Citizen" in a newspaper column without checking ANY facts and making fifteen false, libelous statements -- and he just shrugs it off cutely. He never apologizes. He never decides to do right by the Ordinary Citizen he's libeled. The film is a silly comedy, but this is a rather large sin which requires more than a jokey absolution.

-- The Julia Roberts character is not likeable. You can dress it up whichever way you like, but a woman who's already jilted three men at the altar before the film begins (and just might end up jilting two more) is simply not terribly sympathetic. I sort of like the idea of "Runaway Bride" -- it's a big, high-concept idea which I think has some potential. But execution counts, too.

-- The movie is not funny. Did I mention that? Let me say it again: It is not funny at all.

Anyway, that's what I know about the film, based on watching the first twenty minutes and hearing the rest of it in background.

6132. CalGal - 3/21/2000 5:42:27 PM

I refuse to watch Runaway Bride. It's too bad that it failed. Still, Roberts has had a nice run lately.

6133. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:43:28 PM

Everyone's umbrage at the gratuitous remark on ronin is justified.

6134. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 5:45:03 PM

Runaway Bride was better than I expected, but I was expecting the movie screen to collapse on me in suicidal desperation to avoid having to reflect the image of the film. I laughed several times, mostly at Joan Cusack and Hector Elizando.

And I can watch Julia Roberts watch paint dry for two hours.

6135. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:46:13 PM

Is Apocalypse Now a better movie than Heart of Darkness a novel? Yeah, but what a moronic comparison.

6136. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 5:47:21 PM

The Runaway Bride Metaphor:

In senior year of high school, we had a "Senior Night," during which the most popular kids in school (they were the only ones brave enough, by and large) but on a series of "sketches" for the rest of us.

I say "Sketches" in quotes because they weren't funny or witty or WHATEVER at all. They were embarassing. The Popular Kids just figured that they could go on stage and charm everyone by making silly patter and telling groaner puns and making cute-but-not-actually-funny sexual allusions and such.

Runaway Bride reminded me a great deal of Senior Night. There are lots of well-known actors here, but it's not enough to simply show up in makeup. You actually have to have a SCRIPT, too.

6137. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:47:22 PM

Julia Roberts has the dramatic presence of a chair.

6138. marshame - 3/21/2000 5:47:25 PM

Oh come now, Rasko. Take away her hair, her eyes, her lips and her figure, and what have you got?

6139. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:49:42 PM

Compare Julia Roberts to that woman who played the lead in Orlando (sorry, these names escape me). Julia Roberts isn't even sexy let alone talented.

6140. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 5:49:55 PM

# 6135

I didn't ask that question.

6141. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 5:50:12 PM

Scott: if it was black and white (unless you only had a b/w TV), it sounds like you saw the Mizoguchi version. I didn't think the photography was particularly interesting at all, which annoyed me, since I usually like the photography in Mizoguchi films. My other primary gripes were that the thing was too long, and that I couldn't believe they didn't bother to show the scene where the Ronin take their revenge. Instead, the battle is described by having someone read a description off of a letter she has just received.

6142. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:51:08 PM

#6140

Okay.

6143. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 5:51:38 PM

"Compare Julia Roberts to that woman who played the lead in Orlando (sorry, these names escape me). "

Tilda Swenson.

6144. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 5:51:59 PM

#6130

I did not make any comment about your fondness for the movie about the ronin. Why do you hallucinate these meanings.

6145. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 5:52:43 PM

Pelle:

I generally expect, and desire, an obsessive, doomed love affair/unconsummated fascination in most of my hard-boiled dreary detective fiction.

I dig it.

6146. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 5:53:29 PM

# 6127

Sorry, Raskolnikov, I intended no insult. I myself don't remember anything more than a fleeting mention of that in the DeNiro movie.

6147. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:55:24 PM

But no, that's not the version I saw. The battle took place under winter snow, and at the end - contrary to historical fact - the ronin yet in battle dress limped, supporting and carrying wounded comrades, to the headstone of their liege and there and then committed mass suicide under falling snow.

Please, give me some allowance for good taste.

6148. CalGal - 3/21/2000 5:55:31 PM

I believe Raskolnikov means Tilda Swinton.

And frankly, I'd rather watch paint dry than see another one of her movies.

6149. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 5:55:47 PM

Psuedo:

The man has a large, meticulously detailed model of the 47 Ronin attacking a castle. He yaps about the 47 Ronin for about twenty or thirty seconds (a goodly amount of time).

The film is named "Ronin."

It doesn't really take a "pop maven," you know.

6150. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:56:40 PM

#6144

Okay.

6151. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 5:57:29 PM

Loar, I'll rephrase. Can you think of any film, any artistic film, which in your opinion merits as much admiration as a famous classic of literature like Heart of Darkness merits as a novel?

6152. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 5:58:18 PM

I've only seen her in the one movie, and I don't watch paint dry or Julia Roberts.

6153. pseudoerasmus - 3/21/2000 5:59:28 PM

# 6149

Well, I must have fallen asleep through that part.

6154. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 5:59:58 PM

"But no, that's not the version I saw. The battle took place under winter snow, and at the end - contrary to historical fact - the ronin yet in battle dress limped, supporting and carrying wounded comrades, to the headstone of their liege and there and then committed mass suicide under falling snow."

Now that is an ending. Must have been the Inagaki version then. I'll rent this soon.

6155. TabouliJones - 3/21/2000 6:00:41 PM

SnowOwl,

I rented Regeneration a couple of years ago,and wasn't all that impressed. The plot about struggling to understand the complexities of war through the mysteries of poetic expression struck me as wooden and almost trite -- at least as the subject matter of a movie. The subplots designed to accentuate the theme of regeneration were similarly lacking in my opinion. I gather that these themes were more compelling in the original book, but they just didn't resonate in the movie. On the plus side: the acting was generally quite good and the director proceeded with an attention to characterization which seemed almost loving -- a friend of mine enjoyed the movie for precisley these reasons. Also, Maslin's praise for the film didn't strike me as unfounded. So, I suggest you give it a shot; my reservations notwithstanding.

Oh yeah, let me know what you think of Tanya Allen's performance as the young nurse Sarah. She used to frequent my favourite cafe in Toronto, and I had somewhat of a crush on her at one point. The nurse who gets blown in the early part of The English Patient used to spend a lot of time there as well.

6156. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:01:02 PM

I really loathed Orlando. It's the only movie of hers I've seen, so it's possible she'll do something interesting and change my mind.

I like Julia Roberts, although comparing the two is probably unfair to both of them.

6157. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 6:01:06 PM

Pseudoerasmus, stand by, and when I think of one I'll be sure to tell ya'.

Er, are you sure you wrote the question you wanted to ask?

6158. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:01:31 PM

"Well, I must have fallen asleep through that part."

Can't say I blame you. Were it not for the massive erection I got whenever Natasha McEllhorn appeared on the screen, I would have fallen asleep, too.

6159. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:02:40 PM

The nurse who gets blown in the early part of The English Patient used to spend a lot of time there as well.

I didn't think anyone got all that much action in the movie. I must have missed this.

6160. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 6:04:38 PM

Rask, wait until you see the tears from the very young samurai, and the tenderness from the older ones as they know that promise of adult life will never be realized.

Or, when you see the battle scenes: one man tracing with his sword point another's outline through the ricepaper screen to suddenly thrust, or two samurai fighting back-to-back against a clutch of retainers.

6161. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:05:33 PM

BTW, don't forget to submit an Oscar Ballot. Cash prizes. See Message # 6014 for details.

6162. TabouliJones - 3/21/2000 6:05:54 PM

uh . . . that's the nurse who gets blown UP in the early part . . . not BLOWN, which was another movie altogether.

6163. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 6:05:55 PM

Ronin is one of the better action films in the past few years. That isn't as high a compliment as it sounds, considering that there have only been a half dozen action films in the past few years which were even above average. Mostly I liked the car chases, which I had thought were a lost art, and Jean Reno.

6164. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:07:57 PM

Rask:

Which did you like better -- Jean Reno's portrayal of a shady French mercenary procurement specialist in Ronin, or Jean Reno's portrayal of a shady French mercenary procurement specialist in Mission Impossible?

6165. stostosto - 3/21/2000 6:08:45 PM

Julia Roberts is sexy as hell. Like the Salon reviewer of Erin Brokovich said (approximately): "There are probably people who are not completely taken by Julia Roberts' smile. But I wouldn't care to have a drink with them".

And that doesn't mean she isn't talented which many people strangely seem to infer according to that peculiar logic saying that if you are good looking, you can't also be smart and talented. She definitely is.

She is also incredibly sexy. In fact, I can't think of any other really, really, truly sexy Hollywood actress.

And, Ace, you are spot on in your Runaway Bride review, I did a shorter one to the same effect in #6032:

"I saw Runaway Bride the other day, btw. What a total failure. The plot, the dialogue, the Gere.

If there was any true quality control at the studio that made it, it wouldn't have passed stage 1. No one should be allowed to misuse Julia Roberts like that. And she shouldn't allow them. "

Shit, I would have walked out on it if I hadn't been there with my girlfriend. (But don't tell my wife).

6166. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 6:08:59 PM

Loar: sounds much better.

6167. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:09:12 PM

No, no. Best of all was Reno's portrayal of a shady French mercenary government agent in Godzilla.

6168. PelleNilsson - 3/21/2000 6:09:43 PM

Ace

I get you. A bodice ripper with a spy angle. Try Le Carrés The Little Drummer Girl.

Or, for the hard-boiled stuff, Mike Hammer. Remember when he shot Velda? But perhaps you're too young to have read Hammer.

6169. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:11:09 PM

In fact, I can't think of any other really, really, truly sexy Hollywood actress.

Well, Ellen Barkin before she went off radar. Today, Charlize Theron isn't anything all that dreadful.

6170. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 6:11:37 PM

Sto3, I am seriously moved by your post to wonder about your taste.

6171. stostosto - 3/21/2000 6:13:12 PM

I saw Orlando when it was on some years ago and I refuse to bend over backwards to consider it anything other than a completely incomprehensible series of consecutive images and sounds.

6172. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:13:38 PM

(CalGal sends Sto a high five)

6173. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:14:42 PM

"I get you. A bodice ripper with a spy angle. Try Le Carrés The Little Drummer Girl."

No, no, no, you Swedish douchebag. I'm not talking "bodice ripper." I'm talking unrequited obsessions and unconsummated longings. Read your Chandler.

"Or, for the hard-boiled stuff, Mike Hammer. Remember when he shot Velda? But perhaps you're too young to have read Hammer."

Dumb Swedish douchebag. You mean when he shot Velda like this:

My gun went bang. Velda staggered away, a bloody hole torn in her gut.

"How... how could you?" she asked.

"It was easy," I said.

6174. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 6:14:43 PM

Orlando is almost poetic. But again, I'm not a Julia Roberts fan.

6174. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 6:14:43 PM

"Which did you like better -- Jean Reno's portrayal of a shady French mercenary procurement specialist in Ronin, or Jean Reno's portrayal of a shady French mercenary procurement specialist in Mission Impossible? "

Ronin. By far. The fact that you think the two performances were similar surprises me. Yes, the professions were similar, but in MI, Reno is a cold cypher. In Ronin, it is interesting to watch the way he portrays his growing respect and friendship for DeNiro. Male friendship is rarely portrayed well in action movies. Either the friend is there to get killed, or it is the Lethal Weapon "I show you I love you by insulting you" variety.

6175. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:15:50 PM

Cal:

Yeahp. There's Godzilla, too.

6176. stostosto - 3/21/2000 6:16:06 PM

ScottLoar
I am seriously moved seeing as I have seriously moved you.

6177. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 6:17:37 PM

Now you need but move to better taste.

6178. Raskolnikov - 3/21/2000 6:18:07 PM

"No, no. Best of all was Reno's portrayal of a shady French mercenary government agent in Godzilla."

Don't forget his shady French mercenary government agent in La Femme Nikita.

Or his shady French mercenary ocean diver in The Big Blue.

Wait, scratch that last one.

6179. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:19:00 PM

All this talk of taste has me thinking of Budweiser commercials. Very unsettling.

6180. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:19:05 PM

Or a shady French mercenary assassin-for-hire in The Professional.

6181. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:19:45 PM

Oh, lord. The wrong crowd is here for this, but did anyone see that damn commercial where the guy is wearing a bra and checking himself out in the mirror and his wife walks in?

6182. ScottLoar - 3/21/2000 6:20:28 PM

Ah, commercials. I do appreciate good commercials, outstanding they are among the dreck.

6183. Indiana Jones - 3/21/2000 6:22:30 PM

No, no, no. Amateur hour again.

Velda breathed deep and two asp tongues of smoke flicked up her nostrils. "I hate to do this to you, Mike...it's strictly business." But the eight-inch barrel she pointed at me didn't hesitate.

"Sure, baby. Just make it short and sweet."

A gun boomed. [Note a gun, not my gun...for added suspense.]

Velda pitched forward, a misshappen wreck as dark blood pumped in spurts from the hole my large caliber revolver had torn in her breast.

"My gun is quick," I said.

"Sometimes too quick," Velda said, and her eyes glazed over.

6184. PincherMartin - 3/21/2000 6:22:48 PM

I love those two Morgan Stanley "Know your source" commercials.

6185. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:23:46 PM

I saw the bra one for the first time last night, and I honestly thought I'd choke. I love good commercials--although "good" in an artistic sense does not always equal "good" in the successful sense. For example, Mr. Whipple commercials were quite boring, but apparently very successful.

6186. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:24:43 PM

Indy:

Well, then, okay. Not the death of "Velda." But a much more famous shooting of a female in a Mike Hammer book ends with the immortal lines:

"How... how could you?"

"It was easy," I said. Maybe I, the Jury.

6187. CalGal - 3/21/2000 6:24:44 PM

Oh, they are hysterical.

VBNM VBNM VBNM VBNM

6188. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:26:27 PM

Obviously, "Velda" must be in "My Gun is Quick."

6189. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:31:54 PM

6190. Indiana Jones - 3/21/2000 6:36:00 PM

Ace: Just kidding you, bub. How's the screenplay coming?

6191. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:37:23 PM

Both screenplays are done. I'm looking for an agent for the second one.

6192. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:38:32 PM

Indy:

By the way, do you have I, the Jury handy? Could you post the last bit of action (the shooting, the dialogue) if you do have it handy?

6193. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:46:17 PM

If memory serves, yet ANOTHER woman dies at the end of a Hammer book. The woman aims a shotgun at him-- trouble is, Hammer's filled the barrels with dirt.

When she pulls the trigger, the gun explodes in her hand, the buckshot propelled backwards into her face.

I think the last bit of that goes like this:

She staggered and fell to the ground, her face a pulp spurting blood, exposed white bone, and flesh scorched black.

"You miserable bastard," she whispered.

"Hey, at least I still have a nose," I said.

"You cold-hearted bastard."

"You ever play this game as a kid? Where's you nose? Where's your nose? Where's your nose? Oooh, it's over here, by the wheelbarrel."

"Put my nose down."

"No, I like it. It was your best feature. I think I'm going to make a mixed-media collage out of it."

"Please... have you no mercy."

I puffed a breath on her bloody nose. "Look what I'm doing. I'm blowing your nose. Hee, hee. You get it?"

She didn't laugh. She just died.

She never really had a sense of humor, you know.

6194. Indiana Jones - 3/21/2000 6:48:19 PM

Ace:

I don't have the book (that was all made up stuff). This alludes to the last few lines--and appears to be the ones you were quoting.

And here's a foreign cover:

6195. AceofSpades - 3/21/2000 6:51:17 PM

Indy:

I shoulda known. That seemed a bit overboard. The "Sometimes too quick" line was a real groaner.

6196. Indiana Jones - 3/21/2000 6:57:13 PM

Ace: I'll try to work in some loose body parts next time.

6197. SnowOwl - 3/21/2000 8:30:46 PM

Tabouli,

I'll certainly let you know what I think about Tanya Allen's performance, although I'm now almost loathe to see the film. I don't think that the book(s) suggest that it is possible to understand war through poetic expression, and if the film depicts that it is a large deviation from the themes of the novel.

6198. Candide - 3/21/2000 8:41:52 PM

Snowowl

Some trivia in 'Books".

6199. stostosto - 3/22/2000 4:32:32 AM

Indy: Did Pelle allow your access in his literary archives?

Well, never mind Pelle. Here is another one:

6200. PelleNilsson - 3/22/2000 4:56:45 AM

An old favourite: tough guy Eddie Constantine who played Lemmy Caution.

6201. PelleNilsson - 3/22/2000 5:02:17 AM

Another toughie: Lino Ventura

6202. Cellar Door - 3/22/2000 10:51:06 AM

There's discussion going on in TT over whether Ellen Barkin got a nose job or if a recent nip and tuck makes it look as if she did. Anybody can any thoughts on this?

"Ronin" evokes French mass audience crime thrillers of the 60's in their male-male relationships, sepcifically "Any Number Can Win" ("Melodie en Sou Sol") with Jean Gabin and Alain Delon.

Jean Reno doesn't make it as the new Lino Ventura. I seriously doubt that Jean-Pierre Melville would have cast him in anything save a walk-on. As interesting as he often can be, his persona lacks gravitas.

6203. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2000 11:02:59 AM

Cellar:

If Ellen Barkin got anything done to her face she should sue the guy who did it. In the last thing I saw with her, she looked absolutely run over by a truck.

6204. CalGal - 3/22/2000 1:00:35 PM

Yes, Ellen Barkin and Barbara Hershey are two recent victims.

BTW, folks, don't forget the Oscar contest. Vote early but not often.

6205. Raskolnikov - 3/22/2000 1:04:05 PM

Cal: any weights to the ballot? Does picking best documentary short subject count just as much as Best Picture?

6206. CalGal - 3/22/2000 1:05:03 PM

That sounds like something involving math.

6207. Raskolnikov - 3/22/2000 1:08:21 PM

Just curious.

I am having my 6th annual Oscar party this year, and I weight the awards. But I only have people predict the "big eight", so it is less work. I still need to come up with a prize.

6208. CalGal - 3/22/2000 1:11:48 PM

Big 8--four acting, director, film, screenplays, I'm assuming.

No, I think I prefer it being utterly random. I don't want to reward people for having seen the movies or knowing the scoop.

Prizes--I'm just giving out Amazon certificates.

My plans for Oscar were just shot down, though. I'm seriously bummed; don't know what I'm going to do instead.

6209. Raskolnikov - 3/22/2000 1:20:01 PM

"No, I think I prefer it being utterly random. I don't want to reward people for having seen the movies or knowing the scoop. "

What? then why not just have a lottery for the prize?

6210. Raskolnikov - 3/22/2000 1:22:45 PM

Not that I am at all interested in doing the tallying, so count the ballots any way you want to. But not wanting to reward actual knowledge of the films or the buzz strikes me as a bizarre reason to structure the scoring in a particular way.

6211. CalGal - 3/22/2000 1:52:35 PM

What? then why not just have a lottery for the prize?

Because then it wouldn't be an Oscar contest.

I don't structure the scoring at all. I see no reason to do so. And yes, I like the idea of the random winner. No doubt because I made it through much of high school and college getting As without studying.

However, I don't want to favor the random winner, or it wouldn't be random. Someone who reads the buzz will still have as good or better a shot as the random winner. I even things out by including the other categories, which are quite often hit or miss.

6212. PelleNilsson - 3/22/2000 1:58:09 PM

Weighted scoring = Bias

6213. marshame - 3/22/2000 2:19:44 PM

Just so's y'all know: I picked who I think WILL win, not who I think SHOULD win.

(I'm telling you this in advance of CalGal announcing me as the big winner, in case you think I'm some kind of Hollywood insider based on my astute perception of who the winners will be.)

Yeah CalGal, maybe you should have had two polls: who we think will win, and who we would choose to win. With only one poll, I myself, am going for the Amazon gift certificates rather than my evaluation of merit.

6214. marshame - 3/22/2000 2:21:33 PM

The trick to picking the academy awards, I think, is to try to figure out which category or categories the "academy" really blows it on. Every year there are always a couple of major screw-ups. "Talk to the Animals" as best song comes readily to mind, and I'm sure you can all remember a few other very bad choices when there were very good choices to be made.

6215. marshame - 3/22/2000 2:25:10 PM

For example, Hilary Swank is such an obvious choice for the Best Actress award, that I picked someone else, on the anticipation that some academy voters voted "against" her for everything from "she hasn't paid her dues yet" to problems with the theme.

6216. ScottLoar - 3/22/2000 4:16:14 PM

No doubt because I made it through much of high school and college getting As without studying.

And, Calgal, why is that? I studied, I didn't get A's in every course, nor my daughter now. Is it genetic, something we're doing wrong, a lesson we've not yet grasped? What is the secret of having A's tumble onto the page without effort no less?

6217. jexster - 3/22/2000 4:29:15 PM

New Plot Twist for NYPD Blue in 2001!

Last night Gay John came through solving a murder and earning the respect of Danny.

Next year look for Dectective Dan and Gay John to run to Vermont to get hitched!!

6218. jexster - 3/22/2000 4:29:53 PM

"Dectective"= "dicktective"

6219. CalGal - 3/22/2000 4:48:05 PM

What is the secret of having A's tumble onto the page without effort no less?

There is a talent or knack involved in taking tests, which is how I managed it.

Lest I give the wrong impression, let me be clear: I didn't get straight As. But no matter what the class, my grades were higher than deserved, and it was because I could take tests well. And my grades were at least 60% As, I think. I also took hard classes in high school--physics, trig, calculus, and advanced English lit.

But I'm also rather spectacularly uneducated--my schools were par or lower, and I was bored much of the time. I wouldn't recommend my education to anyone.

6220. Cellar Door - 3/22/2000 4:55:48 PM

Here's a topic re the oscars: Is Best Supporting Actress Cursed?

Marisa Tomei. Mira Sorvino. Mercedes Ruehl. Brenda Fricker. Geena Davis. They've all won Oscars. Why don't they have careers?

6221. CalGal - 3/22/2000 4:58:48 PM

I wouldn't put Brenda Fricker on that list, and Geena Davis's career self-destructed well after she won for Accidental Tourist.

But Tomei and Sorvino are certainly examples of The Curse.

6222. CalGal - 3/22/2000 5:01:23 PM

Ruehl, too. Goldberg is probably a special case, but she really hasn't done much either since she won.

Steenbergen was never a major player, although her career has done well in the past ten years or so. Dukakis never did really well after her win, either, did she?

6223. Raskolnikov - 3/22/2000 6:06:35 PM

"Marisa Tomei. Mira Sorvino. Mercedes Ruehl. Brenda Fricker. Geena Davis. They've all won Oscars. Why don't they have careers?"

Poor film choices, or they just weren't star material (like Fricker and Ruehl). Davis' career took off after Accidental Tourist. She was one of the most active actresses around. Her career didn't die until she put it in the hands of Renny Harlin a few years ago.

6224. Raskolnikov - 3/22/2000 6:07:42 PM

Sorvino put hers in the hands of Quentin Tarantino, and signed up for Mimic and Replacement Killers.

6225. Raskolnikov - 3/22/2000 6:12:20 PM

Paquin still has her foot in the door. And Dench has a solid future. But damned few actresses have careers that span more than a few years.

6226. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 6:14:32 PM

Cellar & All:

You guys should all be savvy enough to realize that an actress' shelf life is much, much shorter than an actors.

It seems easier for a woman to "Break big" and become a huge star than a man.

But male actors stick around for forty years. Actresses have three to five years of being "hot," then they are GONE (until rediscovered ten or twenty years later).

Marisa Tomei didn't do anything wrong, in particular. But, like Sandra Bullock and soon Heather Graham and Cameron Diaz, she was discarded as soon as the bloom was off the rose.

Women are disposable in Hollywood. This is GREAT for the NEW actresses who will become this years' It girl, but it sucks for the former It girls.

6227. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 6:17:18 PM

There are three categories of actresses:

Babe/Ingenue
District Attorney

and

Driving Miss Daisy

(A hollywood dude said this, not me.)

You can only be a Babe for 3-5 years. After that, if you're a half-decent actress and age well -- and can convey authority and intelligence -- you *may* apply for one of the limited "District Attorney" slots that Debra Winger owned for a while, and then Madeline Stowe.

6228. CalGal - 3/22/2000 6:21:22 PM

Actually, Goldie Hawn said it in that chick flick.

6229. Raskolnikov - 3/22/2000 6:24:25 PM

don't forget "Mom".

6230. CalGal - 3/22/2000 6:25:55 PM

...and Wife.

6231. 109109 - 3/22/2000 6:26:01 PM

And Plucky friend of Babe/Ingenue

6232. CalGal - 3/22/2000 6:26:24 PM

No, it's wisecracking friend of Babe/Ingenue.

6233. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 6:36:09 PM

"No, it's wisecracking friend of Babe/Ingenue."

There are two slots for this, both filled-- by Jeneane Garofalo and Joan Cusak.

"Mom" is a subclass of District Attorney. "Moms" are District Attorneys with a softer edge.

6234. CalGal - 3/22/2000 6:38:36 PM

We do have a new subclass--Indy Actress. Filled lately by Parker Posey, who deposed the previous queen, Lilly Taylor.

6235. Cellar Door - 3/22/2000 6:55:41 PM

Actually that's a line from "The First Wives Club," Ace -- a film written by a bunch of Really Smart Queens.

I'm well aware of this injustice. This isn't the case in Europe where actresses like Jeanne Moreau, Simone Signoret and Sophia Loren enjoyed long careers. But we're so much more "advanced" in this The Greatest Country In The History of the World, aren't we now?

Susan Sarandon appears to be one of the few to break the age-requirement curse.

But a lot of the problems with Supporting Actress honorees is that their chosen because they're just so cute and perky. And cute perkiness wears off fast unless you can replace it with something else. Look at Goldei Hawn, for instance. But that was the 70's where all kinds of actors were given all kinds of roles.

6236. CalGal - 3/22/2000 6:58:17 PM

That's what makes people like Meg Ryan and Julia Roberts impressive. Both have spent ten years at the top of the game, barring a slump or two.

Neither has an Oscar. I'm sure they are grateful.

6237. Cellar Door - 3/22/2000 7:04:52 PM

I'd be grateful too, if I had Dennis Quaid to cuddle up with every night.

6238. CalGal - 3/22/2000 7:06:05 PM

I wouldn't kick Benjamin Bratt out of bed, either.

6239. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 7:07:19 PM

"Actually that's a line from "The First Wives Club," Ace -- a film written by a bunch of Really Smart Queens."

Sorry to contradict-- but that line predates The First Wives Club. I read it long ago, long before the First Wives Club came out.

6240. CalGal - 3/22/2000 7:08:58 PM

Other actresses that have been around for a long time--Sally Field, Diane Keaton, Meryl Streep, Mary Steenburgen, Sigourney Weaver.

Some in the mid-category: Emma Thompson, Helena Bonham Carter (both are a bit different in that they are English, of course), Holly Hunter.

6241. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 7:10:14 PM

Cher, Barbara Streisand, and Jane Fonda, too.

Obviously, guys, the "rule" is rather hyperbolically stated. There's hardly any need to detail the numerous exceptions.

6242. CalGal - 3/22/2000 7:12:24 PM

Ace,

No, I agree with the rule. I wasn't posting in rebuttal. It just depresses me no end, so I remind myself of the ones who make it.

6243. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 7:16:23 PM

Cal

The Rule has its benefits.

It is extraodinarily hard to break big as a male actor. Once you're in the club, you're in for life, so their are few slots open to newcomer males.

Women thus have a massive advantage when they're coming up.

It's a lot like rent control. People who already live in the city love it, as it lets them stay where they are without competition; people who wish to move to the city for the first time HATE it, because they're the ones forced to pay the extra rents (as the landlords cannot charge their rent-controlled tenants any more) and are forced to compete with each other for an artificially tiny number of city apartments.

6244. CalGal - 3/22/2000 7:19:19 PM

See, in a world where Adam Sandler makes it big? I can't get too convinced about how tough it is for the guys to make it big.

And there are far more men who make it big than women. Newsweek had an article about Julia Roberts--she was having trouble getting 20 million for a picture. Her agent finally reminded the studio that Carrey and Sandler both got $20 mill after just one $100 million picture. Roberts has had five (with Brockovich a likely sixth).

I'm not complaining about sexism, btw. I think it's more complicated than that. But it's still a drag, and it worries at me.

6245. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 7:24:54 PM

"See, in a world where Adam Sandler makes it big? I can't get too convinced about how tough it is for the guys to make it big."

Adam Sandler has talent. You can poo-poo all you like, but the fact is the man can OPEN a picture HUGE. Whether you like him or not is immaterial. The fact remains Sandler and his buddy will write a script, make a film on a modest $45 million budget ($20 to Sandler, of course) and is guaranteed to at least make $60-80 million with a shot at $150 million.

Gripe all you want. That's what you call "economics."

Will Smith can open a picture too, but only if the picture is filled with expensive special effects and has a $100 million budget -- which makes his dogs (like Wild Wild West) very expensive failures.

And Adam Sandler?

There is simply no down-side. It is simply not possible for a movie starring Adam Sandler, on even a mid-range budget, NOT to make money. And most likely, it will make a shitload of money.

Julia Roberts is one of the few female actresses that can open a movie. But Roberts is always paired with an A-list actor. Sandler can pair with Fariza Balk and make $150 million.

6246. Cellar Door - 3/22/2000 7:26:32 PM

Sorry to contradict-- but that line predates The First Wives Club. I read it long ago, long before the First Wives Club came out.

Really now? Well then you've been hanging out with a much faster crowd than I had imagined.

As for men, I suspect the same thing may be upon them in the very near future. Tom Cruise isn't getting any younger, you know. And Matt and Ben are still perky-fresh!

Leo, OTOH, may very well end up the male Marisa Tomei.

6247. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 7:33:24 PM

"Well then you've been hanging out with a much faster crowd than I had imagined."

No, I just read books about the biz.

6248. CalGal - 3/22/2000 7:58:58 PM

Gripe all you want. That's what you call "economics."

I'm not griping. I'm just saying that it isn't all that hard, which is what you were claiming. It takes popularity, yes. And the ability to deliver a big hit. I'm not disagreeing. But it's not like it takes hard work, perseverance, and luck. It takes the ability to make a big monster hit. A guy only makes one hit and he gets a lot of money. Roberts had to make five before she got $20 mill.

But Roberts is always paired with an A-list actor.

No, she's not. She wasn't in Erin Brockovich, she wasn't in My Best Friend's Wedding. Gere wasn't A-list when they made Pretty Women, I don't think. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any real correlation between a Robert's success and her co-star.

6249. Cellar Door - 3/22/2000 8:03:23 PM

And that means (gasp!) She's a Star!

6250. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:10:28 PM

"I'm just saying that it isn't all that hard, which is what you were claiming. It takes popularity, yes. And the ability to deliver a big hit. I'm not disagreeing. But it's not like it takes hard work, perseverance, and luck. It takes the ability to make a big monster hit."

Oh? Is that *all* it takes, Cal? You just have to turn a $30 million movie into a $150 million profit?

Geeze-- is that all there is to it?

Good thing that talent, perservence, luck, and hard work aren't involved. I'm glad it "only" takes writing, producing, and starring in a monster hit.

And Gere was A-list, and has been A-list, for twenty years.

6251. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:13:32 PM

Hm. "All it takes" to become a $20 million actor is to pump out a series of zero-budget comedies that all earn from $50-$100 million, then put out the zero-budget "The Waterboy" which earns $150 million.

Sheesh. That's pretty damn easy. Why didn't I think of that?

6252. CalGal - 3/22/2000 8:19:00 PM

Ace,

????

What are you arguing about? I'm not dismissing Sandler. You said, "It is extraodinarily hard to break big as a male actor."

I disagree with that statement. It takes a big, monster hit--and it takes that big hit whether you're male or female, and it doesn't matter if you worked for years or just made it. And once you have that hit, you're better off if you're a guy than a woman, because you get paid more sooner.

Now. There are more male movie stars than female movie stars, and aging male movie stars need more sweet young fodder in meaningless co-star parts. That is why there are so many Sorvinos, Therons, Paltrows, and the like. It is easier to break in as movie fodder if you are young, thin, and cute with a bit of talent--but you have a short shelf life.

But once you make it huge, it's easier if you're a guy. And there doesn't seem to be any gender difference in the effort needed to make it huge.

6253. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:19:52 PM

Sorry for the snideness. But what you're saying is pretty silly.

"A guy only makes one hit and he gets a lot of money. Roberts had to make five before she got $20 mill."

"Pretty Woman" was not a Julia Roberts movie. It was a Richard Gere movie. The film MADE her a star; she did not open the film with her own star-power.

And no Julia Roberts movies are "her movies" the way Adam Sandler movies are entirely his. Adam Sandler is a singular talent, much like Jim Carrey. (Gee, Remember when everyone claimed Jim Carrey had no talent? That was until his perpetual string of $100 million movies gave him cash-money respectability.)

Furthermore, every single Adam Sandler movie has earned a huge pile of cash, all for very modest investments. And "The Waterboy" wasn't Sandler's first $100 million film -- "The Wedding Singer" was. Sandler didn't get the $20 million payday until "Big Daddy," based on the money-earning strength of his previous five movies, especially Wedding Singer and Waterboy.

And-- just curious -- does Ms. Roberts develop & write her own scripts?

6254. CalGal - 3/22/2000 8:21:44 PM

Ace,

I have no idea why you're being a shit, so fuck off. I'm not even arguing with you. Go play elsewhere.

6255. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:22:31 PM

"You said, "It is extraodinarily hard to break big as a male actor."

I disagree with that statement. It takes a big, monster hit--and it takes that big hit whether you're male or female, and it doesn't matter if you worked for years or just made it. "

Once again, the silliness-- is that *all* it takes?

And what, precisely, does one need to write, produce & star in a big, monster hit with a zero-budget? Just a cock, perhaps?

Or perhaps an extraodinary talent and twelve years of constant work in the business?

6256. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:24:23 PM

I'm being a shit because you keep claiming that "*all* one needs to become a $20 million actor is to pump out a string of $100 million movies."

Once again-- and what does pumping out a string of $100 million movies require?

You keep implying, it seems, that there's nothing to this "trick" at all. You make a movie for no money. It rakes in $100 million. Then you're a star. That's all it takes.

6257. SnowOwl - 3/22/2000 8:25:40 PM

A word of advice to anyone with children. Never let them grow up to be Film students. I've just sat through Dawn of the Dead with my daughter. I'm almost speechless. As far as I could tell there was no plot, no character development, nothing but endless shots of poorly made up zombies lurching around looking for someone else to tear to bits.

I loved it in a perverse sort of way!

6258. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:26:23 PM

I'm reminded of the Steve Martin joke: "Here's how you make a million dollars and pay no taxes. First (real fast) yougetamilliondollars. Then..."

The joke is, of course, that getting the million dollars is the tough part, not something to be glossed over as a bullet-point on a checklist.

6259. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:29:22 PM

Dawn of the Dead? That was the one in the shopping mall, yes?

A very odd film. There was a certain quality-control there-- it wasn't a poorly-made film. But it gleefully defies the most basic rules of movie-making.

Very, very odd. You're left with a weird feeling-- "What the fuck IS this? Why is this working?"

6260. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:33:55 PM

It keeps to the spirit of the original (Night of the Living Dead), too.

NotLD also featured:

-- no explanations
-- no Hollywood moments
-- a very naturalistic, deadpan, reportial method of story-telling
-- no Hollywoodish character arcs-- just people trying to survive
-- a certain disquieting brand of understatement-- when somebody's head gets blown off, or someone gets eaten, there is no crush of dramatic music or that nonsense. It just fucking happens.

6261. SnowOwl - 3/22/2000 8:35:08 PM

Ace,

Yes, it is the one in the shopping mall, and I agree that it does leave you feeling as though it's worked, for no reason that you can fathom. My daughter told me "you either get it or you don't", but I can't even work out what there is to get.

6262. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:36:39 PM

also, no Hollywood-type tricks to increase suspense. No slow motion, no dramatic intercutting between zombie and victim. No melodramatic lensing or music.

Shit just happens.

6263. SnowOwl - 3/22/2000 8:36:40 PM

Yes, and no real sense of horror - it happens as though it should happen. Weird.

6264. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:41:12 PM

I disagree that the zombies were poorly made up. Zombie makeup is CHEAP (I did myself up as a GREAT zombie on Halloween-- the cost: Twelve bucks) but the Romero Zombie movies all feature good, convincing make-up.

Expensive? No. Difficult? No. But good make-up nonetheless.

Ace's Zombie Make-Up directions: Just mix two parts blue paint to one part green to one part red to six or eight parts white. Cover your face. Now, put red/purple or blackish make-up in the orbits of your eyes. Now put black/dark brown lipstick on your lips and baby-powder on your hair and clothes (to similuate dust) and you're ready to go.

Add stage blood wherever you like.

6265. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 8:43:17 PM

(oh: Cover your face in baby powder, too. This makes you paler, helps "set" the makeup, and reduces facial sweat. The only problem I had with the makeup was that my face sweat like crazy under all that face-paint.)

6266. T. Tallis - 3/22/2000 9:15:06 PM

There is one very bizarre overdubbing effect in "Dawn of the Dead" near the beginning, which may or may not have been "fixed" for recent home-reissues. As a SWAT team enters a building (containing zombies, of course) and jettisons tear gas containers, the camera follows one cannister bouncing down a stairwell; with each step, a disembodied soundtrack voice chants "gas, gas, gas, gas". The effect is more "whut the...?" than tension-building.

Still, for some excellent examples of Romero's "shit just happens" with little exposition m.o., check out "The Crazies" (still Romero's best film, hands down, followed closely by "Martin") or "Season of the Witch".

6267. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 9:21:12 PM

Halloween 3-- Season of the Witch?

Are you saying that's a Romero film? That's one of my favorite horror films -- I like it better than the Michael Myers Halloween films.

6268. T. Tallis - 3/22/2000 9:23:32 PM

No, just "Season of the Witch".

Although I do fondly remember the "Halloween Season of the...", as well. Evil toy companies. Very prescient. One MAJOR quibble, though, was the absence of Donald Pleasance.

6269. AceofSpades - 3/22/2000 9:28:40 PM

T:

Well, it was also lacking Michael Myers and Jamie Lee Curtis.

I admire the idea of establishing the "Halloween" franchise of UNrelated horror films -- a brand-name of quality horror films, but not actual sequels (Tales from the Crypt also attempted this trick, also unsuccessfully). Too bad they gave up after Season of the Witch.

6270. Cellar Door - 3/22/2000 10:24:12 PM

Along with "Casino," "Dawn of the Dead" is one of the best films ever made about consumer culture.

6271. CalGal - 3/22/2000 11:48:59 PM

Oscar Contest, Part II

Answers Due By 6:00 PST.

All questions involve Oscar nominations or awards. They all can be found using the IMDB's Oscar section and related people/movie links.

Do not post answers here, although I'll post the questions here once. Use the Oscar Quiz Response Form to respond.

Amazon gift certificates to anyone who gets them all right. Amount varies depending on the number of correct responses.

Here are the questions:

What do the years 1975, 1976, and 1978 have in common? (Remember that the award ceremonies are held the year after the movie was made. So the 1975 Oscar ceremonies were held in 1976, and so on.)
What do Cliff Robertson and Jessica Lange have in common?
--The Great Ziegfeld, Gigi, Oliver, My Fair Lady, The Last Emperor, Shakespeare in Love--not a chance
--Tom Jones, Lawrence of Arabia, Schindler's List, Amadeus, Rocky, The Life of Emile Zola--coulda happened
--Forrest Gump, A Man For All Seasons, Norma Rae, Ben Hur, Mrs. Miniver, Marty--All the way, baby!
Name an actor who has received 14 Oscar nominations, and won one.
I've got four nominations. My cousin has thirteen. Our uncle had 11 and won one. My father had nearly twice as many as the rest of us put together, and won nine. Who am I, and what movie am I pulling for this year?

6272. CalGal - 3/22/2000 11:49:35 PM

Eeek. 6:00 PST on March 26.

6273. 109109 - 3/23/2000 9:47:44 AM

I watched some of The West Wing last night, and have come to the determination that it portends the end of Western Civilization. This is an insidious show, for several reasons:

1. All the people who work at the White House are "good" people. Yes, they have bad moments, but at bottom, they are eminently good-hearted, and they are invariably redeemed by show's end. It has the disability of "M*A*S*H" in the waning years, when everyone was good and right, and there was no Frank Burns to kick around.

2. They support good causes, and their is no nuance to their cause. They are right. Opponents are wrong. Ignorant and pigheaded to boot.

3. The writing is quick-patter, and each of the actors has picked up on the patter, and while it can be clever, it is annoying. Everybody speaks in the same soft-Mamet jabber.

4. It makes no pretense of reality. I understand that lawyer shows cannot show real lawyer work due to the drudgery and lack of visual interest, but this is the White House. You could certainly blend reality in with drama. Instead, the president, in anger, threatens to resign because his staff and the staff of his wife are feuding. Not that the threat was serious, but it so diminished the guy. And the staff deals with every situation similarly - they roll right over someone, whether it be a congressional contingent, a lobby group, or a senator. If this were the case, the administration would not get one initiative passed -ever. So, it plays like some disgruntled staffer's wet dream.

5. This is a liberal show, by liberals, for liberals. I have nothing against liberals. But it tends to dispense with meaningful conflict.

6. The package is great, and the writing is sharp. Also, with the exception of Moira Kelly, the cast is very watchable. Thus, making the show more insidious.

6274. Cellar Door - 3/23/2000 9:57:06 AM

It makes no pretense of reality.

Actually that's a plus. I abhor the pseudo-verisimilitude of "ER."

This is a liberal show, by liberals, for liberals.

Gee whiz, Niner, you have all the "News" shows -- can't we get a foothold in one teensey-weensey end of the "Entertainment Division"? Actuallly it's not so much a liberal show as it is a show starring Martin Sheen -- a very specific brand of old-school liberal, imagined by most on the right to have unheard-of power in Hollywood and D.C.

I have nothing against liberals.
he said, sidling up to Susan Sarandon with a look so smouldering it could melt steel. Gasping, she leaned sideways to put her Perrier down on what she thought was a table. Yet when it crashed to the floor she barely reacted. "We can. . . .get room here," she said, a smile playing across her --

-- oh, you get the picture.

But it tends to dispense with meaningful conflict.

Conflict is rarely meaningful.

6275. 109109 - 3/23/2000 10:01:19 AM

Cellar

I certify your observations regarding Ms. Sarandon.

As for The West Wing, a troupe full of holy and good folk, no matter their political persuasion, isn't my bag. You need nasty, flawed ingredients.

As for reality, I am somewhat synonymous. "Stat! Defrib!" does get old. But The West Wing is akin to a superhero show, as if good and kind Captain America and the rest of his coterie became president and began to run the country.

And it is hackneyed, liberal tripe, when it could be, at a minimum, fresh, sharp liberal tripe.

6276. Cellar Door - 3/23/2000 10:18:10 AM

Maybe it would work for you if they replaced Martin Sheen with Charlie.

6277. glendajean - 3/23/2000 10:22:04 AM

109109 -- you're right about no internal bad guys. Is there a political office in the world that doesn't have a few.

As far as their harsh treating of friend and foe ... right out of the first years of both Carter and Clinton administration. Both C's lost big battles, and the impression from the show is that these guys are losing, too. I've never seen their pushing people around to get them much. As far as it being a disgruntled ex-staffer's wet dream, isn't Mandy Grunwald, the woman Stephanapolous put down, the resident insider expert?

BTW, the one time their tough guy approach felt real was when the president told the deaf political consultant without embellishment that he was not supporting her candidate for Congress.

As far as his threatening to resign, he did so to his wife, not his staff. LBJ threatened to resign or not run quite often. I am sure that in a pique of anger it could happen. But he wouldn't send his letter to the Speaker of the House. He would send it to the Secretary of State. At least that is how Nixon did it.

As far as old liberal tripe. Their supporting a free trade bill is new liberal tripe.

6278. glendajean - 3/23/2000 10:24:31 AM

And I liked the Sheet-Channing scene.

6279. glendajean - 3/23/2000 10:24:57 AM

How about the Sheen-Channing scene.

6280. cazart - 3/23/2000 10:28:36 AM

Christ. It's fucking TV.

West Wing is no different that ER, Homicide, or the Sopranos. Or do you really believe that Tony Soprano is just a big, lovable guido struggling to deal with his family as he handles the pressure of being a mafioso?

Clue to Niner: JAG isn't a documentary.

6281. Indiana Jones - 3/23/2000 10:31:57 AM

Everything you ever wanted to know about the West Wing

6282. glendajean - 3/23/2000 10:33:25 AM

Cazart -- to quote Billy Crystal from his Academy Awards opening medly when he sang about about the Godfather... you're "not a very nice guy." The Godfather wasn't nice because he "shot Moe Green in the eye."

6283. CalGal - 3/23/2000 10:37:06 AM

Niner,

You always watch the shows where they set up the look of hackneyed liberal tripe, but never seem to be around for the shows where such posturing is made to look like childish nonsense.

For example, the child labor comment made by Channing at the end. It was stupid and simplistic. She will be punished.

The staff is routinely made to look like a bunch of amateurs who haven't a clue--and Republicans are often doing the good deed.

Also, the vice president is not liberal, not a do-gooder, and continually presented as the one truly competent politician in the administration.

So a couple things:

If you can't manage to watch the show without holding it up to your own internal standards of realism, why bother? We aren't at the point yet where we can have completely realistic political shows. But we're a lot farther towards that end than we were before West Wing came along.
If you want to watch the show because you have some notion of claiming you gave it a "fair chance", then watch it more than once every five months. And watch more than "some of it".

6284. Raskolnikov - 3/23/2000 10:38:54 AM

Ace:

"And no Julia Roberts movies are "her movies" the way Adam Sandler movies are entirely his."

She doesn't produce them and co-write them, but she has opened them on her own. She had no significant co-star in My Best Friend's Wedding or Erin Brockovich, and her co-stars in Runaway Bride and Notting Hill haven't had even a $50 million film in years.

"Furthermore, every single Adam Sandler movie has earned a huge pile of cash, all for very modest investments. And "The Waterboy" wasn't Sandler's first $100 million film -- "The Wedding Singer" was."

Incorrect. Wedding Singer only made $80, and at the time a lot of the credit went to Drew Barrymore, since Sandler's previous films had only been very modest, albeit cheap, successes. Since then, Sandler has had two $100 million plus films. I think it is extremely premature to say that he can't have a flop. Look at Eddie Murphy 15 years ago. Or he may get the urge for "legitimate" success like Jim Carrey, and make a "Man on the Moon". Or audiences might just get sick of him.

I do agree that he is as entitled to the big paychecks as Roberts is, but I am not sure that it is tougher for a male actor to become a star. For one thing, they have less competition, since not as many men want to be actors, and a disproportionate number of roles in films are for men.

6285. cazart - 3/23/2000 10:40:14 AM

glendajean:

My point is clear. TV shows are not and, indeed, cannot reflect real life. Who the hell talks like they do on 'Sports Night?' All the cop shows are bunk and the lawyer shows are silly.

It's entertainment. To read a deeper message into a TV show or a movie is indicative of low intelligence.

6286. Indiana Jones - 3/23/2000 10:45:25 AM

Cal: How many responses have you received for your Oscar contest?

6287. Raskolnikov - 3/23/2000 10:45:40 AM

Dawn of the Dead is quite disturbing and depressing. I would probably consider it a good horror film if it wasn't so damn unenjoyable to watch. The disembowelment and consumption of the still-alive biker was nauseating. Of course, it was supposed to be, but that doesn't make it any more enjoyable.

And as a satire of consumerism, the film says damned little. So it has an easy running joke of equating suburban shoppers to zombies. Big fucking deal.

6288. Dantheman - 3/23/2000 10:46:21 AM

IJ,
I liked the link you provided, especially the Drinking Game:

Chug when...
Admiral Fitzwallace bursts into the Good Times theme song.

glendajean,
Dee Dee Meyers is the one who works with the show, I think. She does get some writing credits.

6289. glendajean - 3/23/2000 10:49:43 AM

Dan ... you're right. She was the first woman press secretary, but Stephanapolous was the Communications Director and constantly overrode her and butted into press relations. He made such a mess they brought in Gergen, Georgie moved over as Special Assistant and DeeDee eventually left.

6290. CalGal - 3/23/2000 10:50:31 AM

It's not true that cop shows are bunk and lawyer shows are silly. Homicide and, to a lesser extent, NYPD Blue got a lot of points for verisimilitude. Law & Order is rarely if ever smacked for getting a technical point wrong.

In fact, cop and lawyer movies are damn near a thing of the past, because they can't manage the same degree of accuracy and detail any more. They just don't hold up next to the superior TV shows.

But we've been doing cop and lawyer shows for a long time, and our standards for accuracy on the best shows are a lot higher. Political shows are a relatively recent phenomenon, and it will take a while until they can be as honest and biting as Homicide or L&O.

I think that West Wing is extremely interested in making issues far more complicated than we expect. Niner has continually--and inaccurately--complained about the show presenting its characters as heroes and unquestioningly portraying a liberal bias as a "good" one. Were this true, the show would not get the kudos it has.

6291. CalGal - 3/23/2000 10:52:20 AM

Indy,

A good amount. But come on folks--vote!

6292. Cellar Door - 3/23/2000 10:53:53 AM

Worth a look if it plays in your area.

6293. Indiana Jones - 3/23/2000 10:56:59 AM

Dan: I've never seen the show. As I've mentioned before, I watch movies much more than regular TV. The only show I've seen since Sunday is NYPD Blue, and that was the first (full) episode of it for me since probably a year.

Cal: I sent in my guesses last night.

WB appears to have a new White House drama coming out. As for lawyerin' movies versus TV shows, I still think The Verdict topped any legal TV show I've ever seen. (Though I've never seen The Practice.)

6294. cazart - 3/23/2000 10:57:44 AM

>It's not true that cop shows are bunk and lawyer shows are silly.
Homicide and, to a lesser extent, NYPD Blue got a lot of points for
verisimilitude. Law & Order is rarely if ever smacked for getting a
technical point wrong.

Points from whom?

Homicide was crap for the most part. NYPD Blue is unadulterated crap. And Law&Order transcends crap and moves into the realm of absurd.

Why?

Because contrary to these exercises in crap, the real professions portrayed are not glamorous, they are for the most part boring, routine, and mundane.

You confuse over-the-top character development with accurate portrayals of real life.

6295. Indiana Jones - 3/23/2000 10:58:27 AM

Crap

6296. JudithAtHome - 3/23/2000 11:01:32 AM

I think shows like Spin City are silly but would hardly call Homicide and West Wing silly ...they provide thought provoking stories and offer a fictional glimpse of things we don't normally see in our everyday lives. Sure, they are entertainment but they aren't mindless and slapstick type entertainment.

6297. CalGal - 3/23/2000 11:06:18 AM

The Verdict? Lord, I can't think of a lawyer who praised it on legal grounds. Quite the opposite, in fact, its inaccuracies were bitched about even at the time. The only thing that made The Verdict worthy of note was Newman's performance, which I think is on his short list.

Points from whom?

From cops and lawyers, who else?

Because contrary to these exercises in crap, the real professions portrayed are not glamorous, they are for the most part boring, routine, and mundane.

So? What matters, in assessing for verisimilitude, is whether or not it could happen, and whether or not the procedures were followed in the event something like that did happen.

The people in those professions assess Homicide and L&O as reasonably accurate--if still covering a career's worth of highlights in a season. And that means the shows do doubletime--they entertain and they inform. Nothing wrong with that, if it's done well.

6298. cazart - 3/23/2000 11:07:01 AM

You mis the point, Pilotfish.

As entertainment, they're fine. If your idea of entertainment is to watch the WWF, fine. Whatever turns you on. Hey, I like the Sopranos and I used to love a defunct-TV series about a corporate climber whose name escapes me.

But, if you're deriving some deeper meaning or insight from these shows or believe you're seeing an accurate portrayal of a given profession or issue--you're living in a trailer park and need to adjust the rabbit ears of your life.

6299. Dantheman - 3/23/2000 11:08:24 AM

In my Evidence class in law school, we used a videotape of The Verdict. At several points, the professor stopped the tape, and asked us what Paul Newman's objection should be. Not the most realistic courtroom drama I've seen, but not too bad.

6300. JudithAtHome - 3/23/2000 11:09:03 AM

I wonder if you mean "Profit"?

Of course, here at Shady Hollow Park, we have a dish, you goon.

6301. cazart - 3/23/2000 11:11:33 AM

That's it, Pilotfish!

Yes, it was so over-the-top and campy. I loved it.

But, I don't believe it portrayed corporate life in a realistic way or dealt accurately with 'issues.'

6302. CalGal - 3/23/2000 11:12:17 AM

Caz, no one thinks that all cops live the lives on those on Homicide, and no one believes that NYPD Blue contains answers to The Question.

But there is a substantial difference between NYPD Blue and Nash Bridges, a big gap between The Practice and Law and Order.

The discussion is about that difference. I'm sure that you can grasp this, with a modicum of effort.

6303. JudithAtHome - 3/23/2000 11:18:04 AM

Yes, I loved Profit but never thought it was reality. For one thing, he looked so uncomfortable in that box at the end of every show.

6304. Indiana Jones - 3/23/2000 11:18:21 AM

Cal: I'm talking about in terms of overall quality and verisimilitude, not necessarily "real life."

Every episode I've seen of Law & Order and Ally McBeal, for example, the cases are absurd. Maybe on finer points, lawyers may "approve" of technical details--such as the model of car a high-priced lawyer would drive, but as a viewer I never forgot that it's a show. Do I ever care about the outcome of the case? Nope.

Maybe real lawyers didn't like the fact that Paul Newman was an alcoholic ambulance chaser. But as a viewer, I believed in him and Jack what's-his-name. And I bought into his struggle for justice with James Mason. (As for "boring" realism, I thought the scene in which they spent hours calling down the phone book to find the nurse showed how unglamourous legal work could be.)

Maybe a real lawyer would quibble about the judge's various rulings. But as a viewer, it provided verisimilitude--not the thing I would get by walking across the street and sitting in the court spectators box, but the "semblance of reality" that entertainment is supposed to provide.

6305. cazart - 3/23/2000 11:20:24 AM

CalGal:

Ultimately, there's little difference between 'Nash Bridges' and "NYPD Blue' except for character development. In 'NB', the good guys are always good and right, the bad guys are always bad and wrong. In 'NYPD Blue' and its clones, the good guys are right but not always so good in their personal lives and the bad guys are bad and wrong. It's hokum in either case; one just has better actors.

6306. 109109 - 3/23/2000 2:25:15 PM

Some friends were kind enough to tape the entire last season of The Sopranos for me, as well as all the episodes of this year. I ordered HBO on the strength of the series, which is the best thing I've seen on television ever. I was talking to my friend, and we both concluded that the elements are genius: a soap opera, about the Mob, with a prime location being a strip joint or Lorraine Bracco's legs, and the possibility that at anyplace, anywhere, there could be violence.

Add the fact that it is great quality, and I expect it to be on television for 5 years minimum.

6307. cazart - 3/23/2000 2:32:00 PM

5 years? Nope.

Some of the plot lines, this season, are losing steam. I can't see the writers running yet another family member at Tony every season. Besides, they've succumbed to having guest shots in only the second season--a sure sign that the end is nigh.

And Meadow seem to have devoured all the rigatone on the set this year.

6308. CalGal - 3/23/2000 2:32:11 PM

A bit late to the show.

Undoubtedly Niner will soon declare that WW was a seminal event in television.

Three or four years from now.

6309. Indiana Jones - 3/23/2000 2:33:10 PM

Wow, Niner. You've almost persuaded me to get cable just to check it out.

6310. 109109 - 3/23/2000 2:36:06 PM

Indy

I am persuasive like that.

cazart

Even if it sucked, it could do three years on its head just with the appeal. And this is year is exactly like last year. A meandering, smart soap opera that builds to a crescendo. And it had a guest last year (John Heard).

As for Meadow, I have no . . . er . . . rebuttal.

6311. cazart - 3/23/2000 2:39:40 PM

No. No.

A guest shot. You know, an actor playing themself. Heard was good as the crooked cop last year. I'm talking about Jon Favreau, Jeanne Garafalo, and Sarah Bernhard playing themselves. Although, the scene where Favreau played a ninny with Christopher was funny.

6312. 109109 - 3/23/2000 2:40:47 PM

cazart

Oh. Okay. I got it.

But still, that was one of the best shows of the entire series.

6313. 109109 - 3/23/2000 2:41:15 PM

Although Heard and Meadow are neck-and-neck for the wide load department.

6314. CalGal - 3/23/2000 2:48:09 PM

Meadow and Carmella both seriously chunked out. If the girl doesn't lose weight, I suspect she'll be off to Berkeley.

6315. cazart - 3/23/2000 2:52:00 PM

You're high, Niner. The best show of the series? Not by a long shot--it was the worst.

Anyway, each season is looking ominously similar. Last season they ran Mom and Uncle Junior at Tony. This year, it's sister Janice and Bobby Aprile. Last season, one of Tony's cousin was working with the Feds. This year, it's Pussy. Carmela had a thing for the mooch priest last season, this year, she wants some of the wallpaper guy. Both seasons have the underlying sexual tensions between Tony and Dr. Melfi. The kids are a mess.

6316. CalGal - 3/23/2000 2:53:48 PM

The show is still excellent, but the repellent characters make it hard to watch. I am hoping that Janice dies a gruesome death--preferably because Richie's gun goes off by accident.

6317. CalGal - 3/23/2000 2:55:57 PM

Caz is, of course, entirely in error about The Sopranos. But if we were all to complain about how it had fallen off, he'd be touting it as the pinnacle of television achievement.

6318. cazart - 3/23/2000 2:57:48 PM

Janice is a great character. Unfortunately, she's locked into a plot line that's identical to the first season.

6319. cazart - 3/23/2000 2:59:38 PM

Of course.

Actually, The Ernest Aingely Hour of Power is the pinnacle of television achievement as we all know.

6320. Raskolnikov - 3/23/2000 3:13:38 PM

I watched the first 2-3 episodes this season and stopped watching it. Basically, it is falling victim to soap opera syndrome, where they end up stretching to find things for the supporting characters to do, and a lot of the central conflicts are sustained way past their prime. I have this problem with most shows with a strong soap opera element (ER, NYPD Blue, etc.). They are a lot of fun until you start recognizing the patterns. Then it gets tiresome.

I may try watching it again this summer

6321. Cellar Door - 3/23/2000 3:14:52 PM

Oh I LOVED Ernest Aingely! He's gone to his Great Reward, has he not?

6322. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:19:33 PM

Actually, I disagree that Janice is a great character. Fairly typical. She's just loathsome, and loathsome is new for television.

Last year, Tony and Junior were the centers, and no matter how badass they were, they were also sympathetic. You could identify with them in some way. This year, they have Richie and Janice, who are not sympathetic in the slightest. Much less challenging, but as I said, loathsome people are new for TV. I can't wait until Janice and Richie are gone. And lord, please let Livia die soon. I can't even watch her.

Carmella was interesting last year, whereas this year, her character is not only unsympathetic but often repellent. Her reliance on her hubbie's reputation made a complete mockery of all her protestations, and her desire to control her children is getting a bit Livia like. Tony is the better parent. I can't tell yet if her inconsistent character development is due to bad writing and planning or if they're going somewhere with it.

Robert Patrick is this year's John Hurt part--much more in keeping with the first year. Loathsome, weak, yet sympathetic. Tony's management team is also as interesting as ever. Paulie is getting the attention Junior got last year, and that's done well. Pussy is also a well-done character, although I can't figure out how the plot is going to end up.

They introduced too many characters this year--Furio is wasted. And Janice is far less fun to spend time with than Melfi, whose time Janice was allotted.

All that being said, Niner is correct--they start slow and build nicely. The episodes lately have been a vast improvement over the ones earlier in the season. Yet there were individual moments in the earlier episodes that are critical to appreciating the good stuff now.

6323. cazart - 3/23/2000 3:19:36 PM

He shall live forever in our hearts. I'm not sure the Rev. Aingely has died but am fairly confident that thing atop his head has been deceased for quite some time.

6324. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:20:07 PM

BTW, Cellar, thanks for that review. I don't know if I'll see it in the theaters, but it will make my rental list.

6325. cazart - 3/23/2000 3:22:46 PM

Wrong, CalGal. Wrong. Wrong.

The season started with promise and has gone downhill steadily.

6326. Indiana Jones - 3/23/2000 3:22:49 PM

And yet...he lives!

6327. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:24:23 PM

Intelligent and informed rebuttal, Caz.

6328. cazart - 3/23/2000 3:28:22 PM

Really?

You mean it was better than your

So and so is good....so and so is wasted...I like him, dislike her. Loathsome. Loathsome is so binary.

6329. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:30:11 PM

No. Not better. But with hard work and a personality transplant, you'll get there in a decade or two.

6330. Cellar Door - 3/23/2000 3:31:42 PM

I loved when he talked about his wife, "Angel."

6331. janjon - 3/23/2000 3:33:17 PM

"I am hoping that Janice dies a gruesome death--preferably because Richie's gun goes off by accident.".

And I suppose you will now turn this into a screed against trigger locks or something like that.

(g)

Pussy is the guy who will get it. At Tony's hands. Either the last episode this year or first next. Either that or he will kill the obnoxious FBI man and then off himself.

I thought Livia was as much at the center of things last year as Junior.

But, Tony's the man. Last year and this. What an acting job.

6332. cazart - 3/23/2000 3:34:10 PM

Admit it. You put your hand on the TV screen.

6333. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:36:06 PM

And I suppose you will now turn this into a screed against trigger locks or something like that.

Damn straight. I want every reason to hope.

6334. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:38:39 PM

Good point about Livia--but she was the irredeemably loathsome one at the center. You could accept one character who wasn't really well-rounded and sympathetic, but just fuck you ugly and pathologically mean. Now they have three loathsome characters, and I'm just having trouble coping.

And Tony is still wonderful. In fact, that's much of the reason why I didn't care for the early eps. Not enough Tony.

You might be right about Pussy, but then we all thought he was dead last year. That could turn out the be the running gag--the survival of Pussy.

6335. Raskolnikov - 3/23/2000 3:39:33 PM

I saw "Romeo Must Die" yesterday, just because I am a Jet Li fan. It was pretty damned bad. I don't think the studio trusted Li to carry the film, so they massively built up subplots, a "whodunnit", and wimpingly staged the most platonic romantic relationship I have ever seen in an R rated film (This Romeo and Juliet don't even kiss, much less have a balcony scene). I suspect the inter-racial nature of the relationship scared the studio off. All of this clutter left little room for action sequences, and the sequences that *do* exist are crappily edited and directed. The choreography makes the scenes somewhat interesting, but if you really want to see what Jet Li can do, watch Once Upon a Time in China, or Fong Sai Yuk. (Fist of Legend and Swordsman 2 are supposedly great as well, but I haven't seen them yet). One planet.

6336. cazart - 3/23/2000 3:42:21 PM

Blah,blah, blah, blah. Loathsome. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Loathsome.

Today's Word:

Loathsome

Roll it around on your tongue like a Merlot. Feel its fullness and body. Breathe it in.

6337. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:44:25 PM

Wrong wine.

6338. janjon - 3/23/2000 3:44:49 PM

I don't see how they can carry the Pussy as the trapped and reluctant informer line into another season. Maybe he'll find a way to get out from under his heroin rap.

Sidebar. Among other great little things about the last episode was the sports store owner's whining to his brother-in-law how both he and his sister hadn't stopped the loser from gambling. I've got experience with that in my family and that one zinged right in there as being BINGO.

6339. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:44:59 PM

Rask,

Who the hell is Jet Li?

6340. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:47:40 PM

Jan,

Too true about Patrick's bitching. Much better, I think, than with Michael's addiction which seems to come and go as the plot demands.

6341. Raskolnikov - 3/23/2000 3:50:44 PM

Jet Li is one of the most famous and most talented of the Hong Kong Martial arts actors. He was the villain in Lethal Weapon IV, and he garnered the best notices in the film, so they gave him his own lead role.

I guess I should have posted a plot summary of this one.

Jet Li plays an imprisoned Hong Kong former-cop who busts out of jail and flies to the US to investigate the death of his brother. He gets caught up in the middle of a war between Chinese and blank gangs. He falls for the daughter of the black gang leader (played by Delroy Lindo _ the gang leader that is, not the daugther), and tries to find out who killed his brother while fuel is being thrown on the fire by parties unknown.

6342. cazart - 3/23/2000 3:50:48 PM

You'd prefer a Cabernet? A Shiraz?

Jet Li is the latest martial arts wonder. Unfortunately, he's still learning English and that limits his US roles. Also, like his predecessors, he's coming to America a bit past his prime.

6343. glendajean - 3/23/2000 3:52:42 PM

I saw Mansfield Park last night. Another Jane Austen movie. Delightful. Harold Pinter played Stir Thomas Bertram, the wealthy patriarch and reigning head of a country estate. His poor sister-in-law's daughter comes to live with his family. Austin kept the world outside her novels, but in this movie, his West Indies interests are identified as slaves and this becomes a minor plot device. Fanny in the book is a bit wimpy, but they filmmakers used excerpts from early Austen letters to spice up the character and give her spunk. Like much of Austen's stories, this one could be subtitled "the economics, politics and sociology of marriage in early 19th century Britain."

6344. CalGal - 3/23/2000 3:52:51 PM

Oh, okay. That's where I'd heard of him, from the Lethal Weapon reviews.

6345. Raskolnikov - 3/23/2000 3:57:16 PM

Li speaks English decently, much better than Jackie Chan. He is slightly past his prime, but he is still in his 30s, and quite capable of another decade of good work. Providing he chooses films with better scripts and directors. The director on this one is a former cinematographer, who was directing his first film. Most of the best martial arts films use relatively few shots for their action scenes, which better shows off the choreography. This guy cuts three times a second.

6346. ChristinO - 3/23/2000 4:00:48 PM

Well, crap. I was really hoping it would be good. I have to confess that I will see it anyway, but I'm really disappointed.

What I was not disappointed by was the re-release of Kubric's A Clockwork Orange

This is still one of my all time favorite fi

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