Movies pt. 4

Post reviews, ask for recommendations, make a list. Brows of all levels welcome.

L'il Darlin'...and she is, too.

15118. don s. - 1/23/2001 12:08:23 PM

Was she in "Paint Your Wagon"?

15119. Fielding - 1/23/2001 12:10:28 PM

Cast Away

Bob Zemeckis films are usually better technical achievements than aesthetic, and Cast Away fits this mold perfectly. Cast Away features a compelling, if understated performance by Tom Hanks, and drop-dead gorgeous island cinematography. Where Cast Away fails is in parsing the existential questions inherent in its subject matter. Although engrossing as a narrative, Cast Away is the ultimate "who cares" movie.

Grade: B-

15120. don s. - 1/23/2001 12:24:54 PM

"Although engrossing as a narrative, Cast Away is the ultimate "who cares" movie."

Bring on da Oscars!!

15121. Fielding - 1/23/2001 12:25:11 PM

Snatch

Snatch is another over the top, balls to the wall, pedal to the metal and jittery eyeballs effort from Guy Ritchie. It is crude, violent, incomprehensible, unlikely, silly, and in your face. Its probably fattening too. No matter. Snatch is a rollercoaster for the eyes and ears.

Grade: B-

15122. Fielding - 1/23/2001 12:28:00 PM

If you're scoring at home, I love Snatch, I wasn't into Dick or Pecker, and I really enjoyed Head. I'm hoping that Blow lives up to its potential.

15123. CalGal - 1/23/2001 12:34:50 PM

More on Traffic:

I forgot to mention Dennis Quaid as a sleaze, god love him. It's so nice to see him back.

Catherine Zeta Jones is quite good in a largely unbelievable part. I have read some reviews that consider her an innocent housewife and this is just silliness. But this interpretation is manageable for the clueless, and Soderbergh or the writer could have made that impossible with a few different choices.

In fact, the script is the weak link, despite a few kickass speeches. It's certainly well above average in many ways, but if you want to pick the movie apart, that's certainly where to start.

15124. Fielding - 1/23/2001 12:41:17 PM

CalGal:

"Catherine Zeta Jones is quite good in a largely unbelievable part. I have read some reviews that consider her an innocent housewife and this is just silliness. But this interpretation is manageable for the clueless, and Soderbergh or the writer could have made that impossible with a few different choices."

I think that this is one of the film's sly points. The film is saying that at least some people who appear to be all-american, housewife-next-door types are really funded, either directly or indirectly, by drug money. There is plenty of drug money affluence in the mainstream world.

15125. Fielding - 1/23/2001 12:42:29 PM

I also want to mention that Orrin Hatch's cameo is outstanding, and that I respect him perhaps for the first time for his willingness to be in Traffic.

15126. CalGal - 1/23/2001 12:44:34 PM

I really can't put together a "Best of" list for this year. I have only seen two movies that I think qualify as superb: Traffic and You Can Count on Me.

High Fidelity is probably in third place, and at the moment I can't think of anything better than Chicken Run for fourth--I may change on this, but it still hits me as the movie that most thoroughly confounded my expectations and the best pure comedy of last year. I saw a lot of other enjoyable solid movies: Thirteen Days, State and Main, even Finding Forrester, but none of them really deserve a Best of ranking.

Haven't seen O Brother, Where Art Thou, the Dragon and the Tiger, and Wonder Boys.

15127. CalGal - 1/23/2001 12:46:39 PM

Fielding,

Yes, I know--but her reaction and behavior is only believable if you realize that she's ruthless Eurotrash who was only "innocent" because she hadn't needed to know about it. Many people seemed to think that she was just a hausfrau, poor sweetie.

And for all the performance mentions, I still forgot George Clooney's cousin, Miguel Ferrar.

15128. CalGal - 1/23/2001 12:47:39 PM

It wasn't just Orrin Hatch--William Weld, Barbara Boxer, and a few other politicos were in it. I was quite surprised--did they know what they were doing?

But I agree that of the group, Orrin Hatch was the most natural.

15129. JudithAtHome - 1/23/2001 12:49:18 PM

Miguel Ferrar.

Oh yum....

15130. Fielding - 1/23/2001 12:57:14 PM

CalGal:

"And for all the performance mentions, I still forgot George Clooney's cousin, Miguel Ferrar."

If you are going to mention his cousin, you may as well also mention that his father is Best Actor Oscar winner Jose Ferrer (Cyrano de Bergerac), his mother is Rosemary Clooney, and his wife is the lovely Leilani (Basic Instinct) Sarelle. :)

15131. JudithAtHome - 1/23/2001 12:59:56 PM

Is he evil in this one? Because he does evil so very well...

15132. CalGal - 1/23/2001 1:01:02 PM

No, his grandfather is Jose Ferrer. His father is Mel Ferrar. Don't you be trying to outgeek me on movie trivia, dude.

15133. JudithAtHome - 1/23/2001 1:02:16 PM

I thought Mel Ferrer was married to Audry Hepburn at one time...

15134. CalGal - 1/23/2001 1:02:21 PM

Hey, wait. The IMDB says that he's Jose Ferrer's son--so maybe you are outgeeking me!

But that does not sound right at all.

15135. JudithAtHome - 1/23/2001 1:03:36 PM

Yes, it does, because Rosmary Clooney was married to José, not Mel.

15136. CalGal - 1/23/2001 1:04:33 PM

Good lord--all this time I thought Mel Ferrer was Jose Ferrer's son! They even look alike. I not only stand corrected, I'm grateful for it--I hate it when data is incorrectly associated.

15137. Fielding - 1/23/2001 1:06:41 PM

CalGal:

"No, his grandfather is Jose Ferrer. His father is Mel Ferrar. Don't you be trying to outgeek me on movie trivia, dude."

Not according to Leonard Maltin or imdb.

Miguel Ferrer's biography at IMDB

(Not a geek, but not lazy either).

15138. JudithAtHome - 1/23/2001 1:08:41 PM

I guess it pays to have been alive when some of this stuff actually happened. She said dryly.

15139. CalGal - 1/23/2001 1:08:52 PM

Get caught up, Fielding. Hell, I can make mistakes, look them up, and post two corrections before you can even get a word in. (g)

15140. JudithAtHome - 1/23/2001 1:09:35 PM

Helllll-ooooh?

15141. Fielding - 1/23/2001 1:09:51 PM

I see you've got damage control down to a science. :)

15142. Fielding - 1/23/2001 1:11:33 PM

Actually it does take me a lot longer to post than to think. I type with one finger, and it takes me about two minutes to do the HTML for linking.

15143. CalGal - 1/23/2001 1:12:08 PM

Judith, I saw your posts but not until after I'd made mine. I was tweaking Fielding for correcting me after I'd posted twice on my mistakes.

15144. Fielding - 1/23/2001 1:13:11 PM

Get caught up CalGal! Judith is feeling left out.

15145. don s. - 1/23/2001 1:15:16 PM

William Weld's cameo (something like "Everyone's first instinct is to 'Blame Mexico!'") was really piquant, especially when you remember that his own party (Hatch, et al.) derailed his nomination by Bill Clinton to be ambassador to Mexico.

15146. CalGal - 1/23/2001 1:19:50 PM

Don--I didn't pick up that it was Weld until after his bit was over. It took me all the way to Orrin Hatch to realize that these were the real folks, rather than faceless actors playing nameless pols.

15147. Adrianne - 1/23/2001 1:37:24 PM

(off topic)

Cal, when you get a minute, will you repost that link I saw explaining the power situation in CA and how it happened in "All Stupid, All the Time" in MWT? Thanks.

15148. CalGal - 1/23/2001 1:52:43 PM

Ad, I'll dig it up. I've written up some of it in the Slow Thread.

15149. JudithAtHome - 1/23/2001 2:28:06 PM

Sundance Lineup Reflects Age of Indie Eclecticism

(I didn't realize "eclecticism" was a word.)

15150. PelleNilsson - 1/23/2001 2:30:30 PM

I fear "electicist" may be a word too.

15151. Fielding - 1/23/2001 2:35:52 PM

Traffic


Traffic is a nuanced film about the US war on drugs. It covers a wide divergence of view points, and covers nearly every aspect the process that brings drugs from the Mexican desert to a neighborhood near you.

Director Stephen Soderberg has pulled off that rarity, a film that combines commercial scale with art house technique and intellectual heft. Soderberg manages lots of wonderful touches (colored film stock, staggered editing, impressionistic sound, etc.) without intruding on the narrative. Fine performances abound, from Don Cheadle, Benicio Del Toro, Miguel Ferrer, to even Michael Douglas, Catherine Zeta-Jones and Luis Guzman. What makes Traffic so terrific is its portrayal of the full depths of the horrendous drug problem without preaching easy answers or turning characters into straw men.

Grade: A+

Barring a miracle (I haven't seen Before Night Falls yet), Traffic is my number 1 film of the year.

15152. jexster - 1/23/2001 2:56:06 PM

Enter "Faithless" Sweeps - Grand Prize - Trip to Stockholm - Pelle's Gravlax

15153. Fraaankster - 1/23/2001 3:39:45 PM

Fielding,

I enjoyed Traffic also, although the friends I was with at the time didn't care too much for its staccato segmentation. They found it a bit tiring.
If I'm gonna fault it anywhere, it is how it left out some of San Diego's most beautiful locations ... I might as well have been watching Silk Stalkings when it came to avoiding this city's best scenery. ;-)

A neat part [jab] I enjoyed, was at the very end when Douglass enters a cab for the airport in Washington D.C. and tells the cabdriver to take him to National and not Reagan National Airport.

...Leave it to me to notice the little things.

Time for lunch! :-)

15154. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 3:55:39 PM

My review of "Traffic":

I haven't seen it yet, but I'll give it a thumbs up sight unseen because it was filmed in part - in very small part - here in beautiful downtown Columbus, Ohio.

15155. janjon - 1/23/2001 3:58:24 PM

Ohio - with all due respect, I've been to downtown Columbus and.....

15156. CalGal - 1/23/2001 3:58:39 PM

I thought it was filmed in Cincinnati?

15157. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 4:01:40 PM

Maybe there too, but some scene or scene with Michael Douglas is shot in Columbus.

I think a side entrance of the Ohio State House is supposed to be Douglas's courthouse. (Is his character a state Supreme Court justice?)

15158. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 4:02:15 PM

. . . but some scene (or scenes) with Michael Douglas . . .

15159. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 4:04:57 PM

janjon: You are slighting our beautiful capital city?

Admittedly, it's no Dayton.

15160. janjon - 1/23/2001 4:07:15 PM

Ohio. There isn't a lot of there there, in my humble opinion.

15161. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 4:09:40 PM

Hey, we've got hockey now!

15162. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 4:10:49 PM

(And I was kidding: Columbus is, in fact, somewhat better than Dayton.)

15163. rubberducky - 1/23/2001 4:11:06 PM

OH is nice enough (speaking as a recent transplant).

fun is what you make of it, imho

15164. CalGal - 1/23/2001 4:14:05 PM

Admittedly, it's no Dayton.

I actually get this joke. I am quite proud.

I liked Columbus and Dayton has great restaurants.

15165. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 4:23:56 PM

Ducky: Good slogan! I think "Ohio is nice enough" should go on our license plates.

15166. don s. - 1/23/2001 4:24:03 PM

Bow down before North Industry!

15167. wonkers2 - 1/23/2001 4:58:08 PM

"Federal officials are considering a closed circuit TV broadcast of Timothy McVeigh's execution because of the large number of relatives of the victims interested in watching."

Fox, CBS and NBC reality TV producers have also submitted bids for live broadcast rights to the event.

15168. Fraaankster - 1/23/2001 5:09:29 PM

Since we're knocking cities ... Some outtakes from today's local sports rag on the lovely city of Tampa Bay -- where the Superbowl is being held this year:



... Staging a Super Bowl in this town is like putting Disneyland in Minsk. It's not that it's a hellhole. But there is nothing here. Nothing resembling a pulse.

... I've been to livelier mortuaries.Solemn high mass in church is like the Ceasars Palace next to this place...

Driving in from the airport Sunday night, our van driver said she was a Tampa native."They roll up the streets here at 6, you know." she said.

What she didn't say was that she meant 6 a.m.

...Bad enough Jacksonville is getting a Super Bowl, and Tampa is like Paris next to that place...

...You can walk across a downtown street at night blindfolded and wearing dark clothing without concern for your life.

Sunday evening, I was looking out m hotel window at about 8 o'clock, facing what downtown there is. There were two cars on the streets. Two. I counted them, and they were on one avenue.

It's as though the place is under a continuous bomb threat

Ohio,

Are you sure that scene wasn't filmed here, in San Diego ? Maybe you had the coast scene ? ;-)

Oops, wrong thread. Sorry, Cal.

( Maybe a thread on the worse places we've ever visited should be suggested ? )

15169. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 5:17:29 PM

No, Fraaank, some of "Traffic" was definitely filmed here. The day Michael Douglas was in town there was much excitement among us simple Midwest folk.

(And don't you know your geography? The big city on America's North Coast is Cleveland, not Columbus!)

15170. janjon - 1/23/2001 5:20:15 PM

Ohio - I suspect that, technically, Columbus now has significantly more people than Cleveland. (Probably not if you count the metro. area though.)

And, Cleveland still has those wonderful old institutions - that terrific museum, the Symphony.

And, a river than no longer will burn.

15171. OhioSTOPAS - 1/23/2001 5:21:00 PM

"Federal officials are considering a closed circuit TV broadcastof
Timothy McVeigh's execution because of the large number of relatives
of the victims interested in watching."

"Fox, CBS and NBC reality TV producers have also submitted bids for live broadcast rights to the event."

If the networks are going to be involved, McVeigh can be given the punishment he deserves: After strapping him in the chair, make him watch "Bette".

The bastard will be begging for someone to throw the switch.

15172. Fraaankster - 1/23/2001 5:28:03 PM

Ohio,

I am not that geographically challenged. Of course I know about your coastlines. I was just funning you, kid.

By the way, as a child, when our father was playing parent and around to take us places, the one place we did frequent on occasion was the bay scene ( Bonita Cove ) where Catherine Zeta Jones ( God, I get turned on by her by just saying her name ) is threatened with her child's potential kidnapping.

Can you believe it, Catherine and I now have something in common ?!

(sigh) They really did leave the most scenic parts of this city out.

15173. don s. - 1/23/2001 5:29:58 PM

Hello....? Jacobs Field anyone???

I've been there once and (here's the on-topic part) seen it on TV numerous times.

15174. Fraaankster - 1/23/2001 5:39:46 PM

Well, I don't know about Jacobs Field, but I've been to Candem(sp?)Yards, so if it tops that place, that's saying a lot. That ballpark is absolutely beautiful!

15175. CalGal - 1/24/2001 12:55:02 AM

Saving Private Ryan has been on HBO a lot lately, and I've watched the first half hour a few times. It's not a great film, IMO, although the combat scenes are so well done and moving that it achieves more than many better movies. The non-combat scenes are mediocre or worse, with one exception.

I remember when the movie came out it sparked a lot of discussion about whether or not the squad should have been risked to save one person. I have always fallen squarely in the camp that says you don't spend lives to save lives in such a haphazard fashion, and lord help the army that sent my son out on a junket like that to save a general some bad publicity.

But then there's that sequence with the Ryan boys' mother: washing the dishes, seeing the car, getting a bit apprehensive, watching it drive up the dirt road, going out onto her front porch, seeing the minister alight, backing up, dropping down to the ground when her knees can't take it any more.

And so far she thinks she's only lost one son.

If there was a case to be made for valuing one guy over eight, that was the scene that did the job.

15176. Toenails - 1/24/2001 9:20:01 AM

As I've said here before, I think the Academy Awards show is missing a bet by not creating a special award for each year's best vignette -- without regard to the overall quality of the film in which it appears. The "mother on the porch" scene out of Private Ryan is a perfect example -- a stand-alone (sorry) scene that is memorable and compelling in its own right.

I've frequently gotten pleasure equal to the price of admission from individual film scenes in movies that otherwise were anything but memorable...and think of what a great gimmick it would be on awards night, to intersperse five short sequences of real quality during the presentations. (It would sure be better than reproducing the five nominated SONGS!)

15177. rubberducky - 1/24/2001 9:30:52 AM

Toe:

but still not as good as the Best Hissy Fit category on the MTV awards, imho.

15178. rubberducky - 1/24/2001 9:42:34 AM

not sure if anyone here watches it (or will admit to same) but Talk Soup has a new host:

The [E!] network has named a relative newcomer, comedian Aisha Tyler, as the permanent host of its long-running talk-show yukfest.

Tyler becomes the fourth host in the Emmy-winning show's nearly 10-year history--not to mention the first woman and first black host. She makes her official debut Friday on the show, which currently airs weeknights at 7:30 p.m. ET/PT.

"What I hope is we'll be able to make the most of what Talk Soup already is and maybe bring in my own kind of sensibility," she says. "I think [the writers] are jazzed that, because I'm a woman, maybe they can get away with a lot. I can get away with a lot of stuff a guy couldn't say."

...

The self-proclaimed "improv class junkie" and Dartmouth graduate has appeared on shows like Politically Incorrect, VH1's The List, Nash Bridges and The Late Late Show with Craig Kilborn. Her résumé also includes the indie films Dancing in September and The Whipper, and she can be seen on the new syndicated Universal series, The Fifth Wheel--a follow-up to Blind Date--currently being sold to stations at this week's National Association of Television Program Executives conference.

i haven't watched it in a while since they stopped running the previous day's reruns at 6 EST - so i hope she doesn't suck.

15179. JudithAtHome - 1/24/2001 9:58:36 AM

The "mother on the porch" scene out of Private Ryan is a perfect example -- a stand-alone (sorry) scene that is memorable and compelling in its own right.

....and directly lifted almost in its entirity from a French war film called Bolero which was done by Claude Lelouch in 1981.

I like the scene from Saving Private Ryan , too, but I think it's odd that the most effective scene in the entire movie was not original at all.

15180. CalGal - 1/24/2001 10:05:32 AM

Really! That makes it much cleaner. The only thing Spielberg did right was the combat scenes, then.

15181. Fielding - 1/24/2001 10:06:04 AM

Spielberg is not an innovator, but rather, a technician. Spielberg is very good at identifying things that have worked well for other film makers and incorporating them into his movies. He is also smart enough to realize that originality is not a strength, and thus doesn't unnecessarily call attention to himself the way so many other directors do. I give him credit for this.

(The only time I can remember him screaming for attention in any of his movies was the little girl with the red dress in Schindler's List. The effect was spectacularly successful.)

15182. JudithAtHome - 1/24/2001 10:08:30 AM

Fielding:

If you want to see an innovative director who does war extremely well, find a copy of Lelouchs Bolero .

And no, it doesn't star Bo Derek.

15183. Fielding - 1/24/2001 10:17:15 AM

Thanx for the recommendation, Judith. I shall seek it out.

Please keep in mind that I am not saying that Spielberg is the greatest director or anything like that. I think that he's creates a polarizing debate: Those who praise him tend to overstate his goodness, and those who criticize him tend to overstate his weaknesses. Kind of like Bill Clinton.

15184. JudithAtHome - 1/24/2001 10:25:44 AM

I've liked a few of his films but as you say, he's technically very good. I actually like the originality of directors more than the technical correctness.

15185. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 11:41:32 AM

Spielberg can innovate when he needs to. I don't think he borrowed many of the cinematic techniques he used for the first 30 minutes of Saving Private Ryan.

But it is true that this isn't all that common in his work. Which isn't really a problem anyway, as I agree with Fielding's assessment. Being a great director doesn't necessarily mean you are constantly inventing new visual techniques.

15186. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 11:46:31 AM

The beach shot of Scheider in Jaws, when he realizes that something bad has just happened, is a technical crib from Vertigo. But who cares? It is perfectly appropriate for the moment, and has the desired impact.

15187. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 11:46:37 AM

(The only time I can remember him screaming for attention in any of his movies was the little girl with the red dress in Schindler's List. The effect was spectacularly successful.)

I was aghast by that, and I am aghast that so few people were aghast by it.

I suppose it's a matter of good taste. Those who were aghast have it, those who weren't lack it.

The technicolour red ruined the texture of those scenes.

15188. JudithAtHome - 1/24/2001 11:49:48 AM

I suppose it's a matter of good taste. Those who were aghast have it, those who weren't lack it.

Well, according to you...others might say differently.

15189. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 11:50:32 AM

I never understood your distaste for that scene. It fits in well with the film, which chronicles how Schindler moves from amoral Nazi collaborator to selfless hero, by personalizing the victims around him. The "red dress" scene is another instance of personalization.

15190. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 11:50:52 AM

Yes, but they can't say it as convincingly as I can.....

15191. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 11:53:15 AM

I never understood your distaste for that scene.

It's aesthetically tasteless.

It fits in well with the film, which chronicles how Schindler moves from amoral Nazi collaborator to selfless hero, by personalizing the victims around him.

Schindler had no contact whatever with the girl in the red dress.

The "red dress" scene is another instance of personalization.

The movie had lots of personalisations already -- without ruining the texture of those scenes.

15192. JudithAtHome - 1/24/2001 11:54:33 AM

Well, PE...I doubt anyone would argue with that.

15193. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 11:56:18 AM

"Schindler had no contact whatever with the girl in the red dress. "

He was watching her. The red dress shots are shown through Schindler's eyes (at least metaphorically- I can't recall whether they are all explicit POV shots).

15194. Francis Urquhart - 1/24/2001 11:56:35 AM

Spielberg is a fine director. His problem is simple. He often cannot resist the maudlin, and he rarely trusts communication of emotional import without aid of a sledgehammer.

15195. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 11:57:59 AM

And I think that scene was the first time Schindler personalizes the victims of the holocaust. But I haven't seen the film in 7 years, and am going by memory.

15196. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 11:59:03 AM

It fits in well with the film, which chronicles how Schindler moves from amoral Nazi collaborator to selfless hero, by personalizing the victims around him. The "red dress" scene is another instance of personalization.

No, I think Schpielberg wanted to insert a good "kid" scene, because that's his thing, to have kid scenes.

What's interesting is that so many people remember such a tacky, garish device while the infinitely more poignant kid scene -- where the boy looking for a hiding place ends up in a pool of ordure -- is rarely remembered.

15197. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 12:01:36 PM

FU: yes indeed. That is where the criticims of the red dress scene are usually coming from, they think it is maudlin and manipulative. Spielberg is often guilty of this, and I think he comes close in the red dress scene, but I think he avoids crossing the line through the use of long shots rather than close ups.

15198. Francis Urquhart - 1/24/2001 12:03:01 PM

Rask

In the lexicon of Spielberg, the red dress scene could be held up as an example of his restraint.

15199. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 12:03:26 PM

But it isn't a typical Spielberg kid scene - The lack of close-ups is a major departure for him. Consider how he uses them in the other kid scene you mention, which *is* more typically shot, and is also good.

15200. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 12:03:58 PM

FU: yes.

15201. CalGal - 1/24/2001 12:04:16 PM

where the boy looking for a hiding place ends up in a pool of ordure

This is the one that always gets me. He goes to one place after another, with kids telling him to fuck off, and finally jumps in the latrine.

I agree with PE about the red dress, and I agree with FU about Spielberg in general.

15202. Fielding - 1/24/2001 12:10:08 PM

PE:

"What's interesting is that so many people remember such a tacky, garish device while the infinitely more poignant kid scene -- where the boy looking for a hiding place ends up in a pool of ordure -- is rarely remembered."

This is not true. This scene was in the trailer, the television commercials and is shown routinely at awards programs.

15203. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 12:11:25 PM

I think it is only less discussed than the red dress scene because the red dress scene is controversial - a lot of people hate it.

15204. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 12:13:00 PM

Message # 15194: Perfectly put.

Message # 15198: Amazing! Here is a film, in a black & white photography so pretty & sensuous as to be an ironic contrast to the grisly goings-on; and then the man ruins the integrity of the visual texture by inserting something as colourfully scarlet as a baboon's vulva. This is not restraint. It is the very height of Spielberg's incontinence for the intrusively maudlin.

Message # 15199: Your argument that the Red Riding Hood thing is not typical of him rests entirely on the distance of the shot, which seems to me restricted and reductionist. The scene was typical of him for being maudlin, for underlining emotion rather than depicting it.

15205. Fielding - 1/24/2001 12:13:22 PM

The clinker scene in Schindler's List is the scene when Schindler breaks down in anguish, crying out that he should have done more. This scene is more typical of Spielberg's manipulative and maudlin impulses.

15206. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 12:15:55 PM

#15205, that's true, but I think the problem there was not Schpielberg, but the fact that Neeson was incapable of making that scene true.

15207. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 12:22:56 PM

" Amazing! Here is a film, in a black & white
photography so pretty & sensuous as to be an ironic contrast to the
grisly goings-on;"

I think you are completely off about why he chose black and white. I don't think it was ironic so much as documentarian. And anyone who calls the photography in Schindler's List "pretty and sensuous" is out of their tree.

"Your argument that the Red Riding Hood thing is not typical of him rests entirely on the distance of the shot, which seems to me restricted and reductionist."

I think it is a major shift in emphasis. The lack of close-ups shifts attention to Schindler who is hardly chewing scenery. This is a lot more subdued than Spielberg's patented "camera starts low and pulls up, focused on a child whose eyes are looking up in wonder" brand of manipulation. The long shot makes it much more subdued. The red dress doesn't add emotional content so much as focus.

"The scene was typical of him for being maudlin, for underlining emotion rather than depicting it."

Not applicable in this scene. We *do* get depicted emotion in reaction shots of Schindler. The scene is important for its impact on *him*.

15208. Fielding - 1/24/2001 12:26:58 PM

I am also unhappy with the Ben Kingsley character, who is a cardboard saint, a virtual plot device.

These quibbles do not bother me enough to keep me from ranking Schindler's List as one of the top ten films of the 1990s.

15209. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 12:27:06 PM

"The clinker scene in Schindler's List is the scene when Schindler
breaks down in anguish, crying out that he should have done more.
This scene is more typical of Spielberg's manipulative and maudlin
impulses."

Yeah, but I don't think it clinked. I find that the impact of scenes like that all depend on how caught up you are at the moment. If you are intellectually, but not emotionally, engaged you roll your eyes, wince, and squirm uncomfortably. I have done this many times at films that I *would* call maudlin (including the final cemetary scene in Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan). But for that scene I was involved enough that it worked.

15210. Fielding - 1/24/2001 12:31:29 PM

Rask:

"Yeah, but I don't think it clinked. I find that the impact of scenes like that all depend on how caught up you are at the moment. If you are intellectually, but not emotionally, engaged you roll your eyes, wince, and squirm uncomfortably. I have done this many times at films that I *would* call maudlin (including the final cemetary scene in Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan). But for that scene I was involved enough that it worked."

You would have to have a heart of stone not to need an outlet for your emotions by that point in the movie. Even if the scene provides its intended bathetic effect, that does not take away from its excessive mawkishness.

15211. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 12:41:15 PM

Message # 15207

I think you are completely off about why he chose black and white. I don't think it was ironic so much as documentarian.

He may have intended to produce a documentary effect, but who gives a shit about that. The effect was not documentary. What documentaries are that pretty looking.

And anyone who calls the photography in Schindler's List "pretty and sensuous" is out of their tree.

I don't mean the contents of the images themselves. I mean the cinematography. It was artful, with hues & tones & gradations one would not ordinarily find in a documentary.

I think it is a major shift in emphasis. The lack of close-ups shifts attention to Schindler who is hardly chewing scenery. This is a lot more subdued than Spielberg's patented "camera starts low and pulls up, focused on a child whose eyes are looking up in wonder" brand of manipulation. The long shot makes it much more subdued.

I just love these overripe cineaste rationalisations. The net effect of the redness is: "LOOK AT ME. SEE ME. WATCH ME".

The red dress doesn't add emotional content so much as focus.?

Focus? Nice euphemism. I didn't say the red dress adds emotional content, but that by making the audience fixate on the girl and knowing her fate he go for the maudlin: "oh look that cute little girl got killed" -- as though there weren't enough personalised deaths already in the film.

Not applicable in this scene. We *do* get depicted emotion in reaction shots of Schindler. The scene is important for its impact on *him*.

I think you're hallucinating.

15212. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 12:53:26 PM

"I don't mean the contents of the images themselves. I mean the
cinematography. It was artful, with hues & tones & gradations one
would not ordinarily find in a documentary. "

Artful I can buy, but not sensuous and pretty, which I think cannot be completely separated from content.

"I just love these overripe cineaste rationalisations. The net effect of the redness is: "LOOK AT ME. SEE ME. WATCH ME". "

I don't think you remember the scene all that well. Long shots (we never see the girl's face), intercut with close-ups of Schindler. He is watching the action, and we are seeing what he sees. My take was that the red dress was how Schindler noticed and remembered her. The entire scene is very subjective. Would everything have been fine with you if Spielberg had avoided colorization, and used some other identifier so that we could know it was the same girl, such as a white dress?

15213. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 1:00:53 PM

I don't think you remember the scene all that well. Long shots (we never see the girl's face), intercut with close-ups of Schindler. He is watching the action, and we are seeing what he sees. My take was that the red dress was how Schindler noticed and remembered her.

Please. Schindler was depicted as witness to the liquidaton of the ghetto of Krakow, a place with narrow streets. He stood from a hill far away. The conceit that he was fixating on and following the girl, even if it was Spielberg's intention, is silly.

Would everything have been fine with you if Spielberg had avoided colorization, and used some other identifier so that we could know it was the same girl, such as a white dress?

No. He should have excised that little girl motif entirely. The liquidation of the ghetto was horrible enough.

15214. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 1:09:37 PM

"Please. Schindler was depicted as witness to the liquidaton of the
ghetto of Krakow, a place with narrow streets. He stood from a hill
far away. The conceit that he was fixating on and following the girl, even if it was Spielberg's intention, is silly. "

I don't see your reasoning here at all. Why is it silly that he would follow what was happening to a little girl?

"No. He should have excised that little girl motif entirely. The
liquidation of the ghetto was horrible enough. "

Not generally. Watching anonymous people killed in movies usually lacks emotional impact, even if it is a depiction of historical reality. Mass murder just happens in movies too often. In order to drive the point home, directors almost always give us characters that we identify with in order to give the scenes more emotional heft. In a movie already top-heavy with characters, I think Spielberg, instead of developing a handful of minor characters to be killed, knew that everyone identifies with children.

15215. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 1:11:09 PM

I still think the best thing about Schindler's List is that there is no Big Decisive Moment where Schindler is transformed from indifferent to deeply involved. It just happens and the film does not tediously explore the causes of his transformation. Rather it makes Schindler's goodness just as mysterious as the evil that surrounds him.

That's also the film's biggest weakness. Schindler's character, instead of being an interesting enigma, is mostly opaque, a hollow shell.

By contrast, in David Lean's Lawrence of Arabia where the protagonist's motivation is equally mysterious, Lawrence is truly enigmatic, not opaque.

15216. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 1:16:18 PM

I don't see your reasoning here at all. Why is it silly that he would follow what was happening to a little girl?

Because he was so far away and it's not plausible that he could have fixated on her and followed her progress. It's hokum.

Watching anonymous people killed in movies usually lacks emotional impact...Mass murder just happens in movies too often. In order to drive the point home, directors almost always give us characters that we identify with in order to give the scenes more emotional heft. I

This is the biggest canard of the red riding hood thing. The movie is full of personalised deaths. From the boy who gets shot for not scrubbing the bath hard enough, to the young woman who gets shot for suggesting a better construction plan.

15217. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 1:24:33 PM

Well, you are right that Schindler's transformation is gradual, but I don't think it is mysterious at all. I earlier mentioned personalization as the ongoing theme of the film.

The movie contrasts the dehumanization efforts of the Nazis (removing names, no personal interaction, etc.) with Schindler's more personal relationship with the Jews. Schindler works with them, knows their names, and knows their personalities. As such, he can't dehumanize the way the Nazis do, and eventually is driven to help save them, through a series of baby steps (such as one instance where he is told that if he fires an elderly worker, the man will be killed). Schindler is also contrasted with Ralph Fiennes character, who *also* has to relate with jews as his personal servants, but his position is one where he is directly responsible for keeping them in the camps. The contradiction drives him insane.

My take has always been that the film posits that if the Fiennes and Neeson characters had switched places, the same events would have happened. This may not be factually true, but it is meant to drive home a point about future holocausts can be prevented by not allowing the first step of dehumanization.

15218. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 1:26:14 PM

that's a good point.

15219. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 1:28:53 PM

"Because he was so far away and it's not plausible that he could have
fixated on her and followed her progress. It's hokum."

what? That was part of the point of showing the red dress. It made her easier to track.

"This is the biggest canard of the red riding hood thing. The movie is
full of personalised deaths. From the boy who gets shot for not
scrubbing the bath hard enough, to the young woman who gets shot
for suggesting a better construction plan."

But these just prove my point. Spielberg *wants* the murders to be personalized as much as possible. Why do you expect him to make an exception with the liquidition of the ghetto? I think it would have been jarring if he *hadn't* found some way to personalize it.

I think you can quibble over the method. He could have developed a few more minor characters, used a different visual cue for the little girl, or excised the liquidation scene entirely, but I think all of these make for a weaker picture.

15220. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 1:33:00 PM

Well, perhaps not such a good point, on second thought.

The Fiennes character is not driven insane by the contradiction between his duties and his personal contact with servants. That's overgenealised. He doesn't see his personal servants as less any human than those in the camps. He kills one (or several?) of his servants, after all. So you can't generalise so much from his love for the girl.

Also, Schindler is not the only one with personal contact with Jews! There are other industrialists using slave labour. Yet Schindler is the one to change dramatically.

15221. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 1:40:26 PM

Message # 15219

My objection to the red dress is just a quibble, you must remember. I'm not objecting to the film as a whole.

what? That was part of the point of showing the red dress. It made her easier to track.

I think compulsive cinephilia has exacted a severe cost. Aren't you confusing your reality with the reality within the film? I don't think Schindler perceived the world in varying hues of pewter, punctuated by the occasional baboon-vagina-red.

Spielberg *wants* the murders to be personalized as much as possible. Why do you expect him to make an exception with the liquidition of the ghetto?

Well, he could have found some other way of personalising the liquidation of the ghetto other than putting in that garish red in there.

15222. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 1:48:35 PM

"The Fiennes character is not driven insane by the contradiction
between his duties and his personal contact with servants. That's
overgenealised. He doesn't see his personal servants as less any
human than those in the camps. He kills one (or several?) of his
servants, after all."

I do think there is more to Fiennes' character than what I briefly said above. That character is additionally dealing with power issues. Spielberg was clearly saying that the man was having difficulty dealing with the power over life and death that he had. But I still think that personalization holds as an argument. Fiennes *can't* take the attitude that Schindler does and avoid getting shot.

"Also, Schindler is not the only one with personal contact with Jews!
There are other industrialists using slave labour. Yet Schindler is the one to change dramatically."

I agree that the film doesn't explain the historical Schindler, but I think it works to explain the Schindler character in the film. We don't see much of the other industrialists.

I also think this partially explains our difference over little red riding hood. I see it as one of Schindler's "baby steps" that helps explain his actions. The fact that he *does* focus on one individual is crucial to his character development.

15223. Indiana Jones - 1/24/2001 1:50:12 PM

Lord of the Rings

Nice site.

15224. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 1:53:21 PM

"I think compulsive cinephilia has exacted a severe cost. Aren't you
confusing your reality with the reality within the film? I don't think Schindler perceived the world in varying hues of pewter, punctuated by the occasional baboon-vagina-red.

How many Jewish girls in the ghetto do you think wore red dresses? Maybe they were common in Poland, but for the American audience that the film was aimed at, red dresses are pretty damned rare. I saw no difficulty in believing that Schindler was tracking her by the color of her dress.

"Well, he could have found some other way of personalising the
liquidation of the ghetto other than putting in that garish red in there. "

Yes, I mentioned a few possibilities. I probably would have used a white dress, and had no one else in the scene where white. The switch to color has proved a distraction from the scene.

15225. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 1:53:41 PM

"wear white"

15226. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 4:44:33 PM

Message # 15222

That character is additionally dealing with power issues.

I despise the psychobabbly idiom "dealing with ____ issues". Please use more antiquated language.

"Also, Schindler is not the only one with personal contact with Jews! There are other industrialists using slave labour. Yet Schindler is the one to change dramatically." I agree that the film doesn't explain the historical Schindler, but I think it works to explain the Schindler character in the film. We don't see much of the other industrialists.

Come now, lover of Sonya (does your wife know about that?), you can't expect to make a film about the Holocaust, one of the most publicised historical tragedies of all time, and then expect to hermetically seal it from the world. Besides, people other than Schindler, including those in the film, had daily contact with Jews.

I also think this partially explains our difference over little red riding hood. I see it as one of Schindler's "baby steps" that helps explain his actions. The fact that he *does* focus on one individual is crucial to his character development.

I don't think he did. I still think you're hallucinating.

15227. AceofSpades - 1/24/2001 4:51:36 PM

Toe,

"I think the Academy Awards show is missing a bet by not creating a special award for each year's best vignette -- without regard to the overall quality of the film in which it appears."

Think about it. Think about what a left-handed compliment that is.

"And now... here are some good scenes from BAD MOVIES otherwise underserving of an award!"

15228. AceofSpades - 1/24/2001 4:53:25 PM

"Spielberg is not an innovator, but rather, a technician. Spielberg is very good at identifying things that have worked well for other film makers and incorporating them into his movies. He is also smart enough to realize that originality is not a strength, and thus doesn't unnecessarily call attention to himself the way so many other directors do. I give him credit for this."

I give CalGal credit for this analysis and this un-PC defense of Steven "Despised by the Art House Crowd" Spielberg.

15229. AceofSpades - 1/24/2001 4:54:36 PM

I guess I give Fielding credit for that.

15230. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 4:56:33 PM

"I despise the psychobabbly idiom "dealing with ____ issues". Please
use more antiquated language. "

I was using the phrase humorously. But to translate, Fiennes went power mad.

"you can't expect to make a film about the Holocaust, one of the most
publicised historical tragedies of all time, and then expect to
hermetically seal it from the world. Besides, people other than
Schindler, including those in the film, had daily contact with Jews. "

Who that were in a position to do anything about it? Or that had a person like Kingsley's character subtley leading them along? I think the focus on humanization is almost inarguable. The first word of dialogue is "Name". We are constantly barraged with the names of characters who are only fleetingly in the film. Think of the scene I referred to earlier, when Kingsley tells Neeson that elderly man will be killed if fired. His name is given, and (if I recall correctly) a very brief bio is given. I am sure more examples would occur to me if I had seen the film again in the past 7 years. The name/number dichotomy is used as an obvious symbol of Nazi dehumanization.

15231. pseudoerasmus - 1/24/2001 5:17:17 PM

Who that were in a position to do anything about it?

Well, Fiennes could have shown more leniency and less harshness toward his Jewish captives. One thing which is shown over and over again in the film, and is historically accurate, was that the Nazis were far more brutal than strict adherene to duty required them to be -- despite having daily contact with women, children and old men.

Most human beings are not pure evil and have moments of weakness. That some of these Nazis didn't show much weakness, is a true mystery.

I think the focus on humanization is almost inarguable.

I can only repeat that Schindler was not alone in having close contact with Jews, even within the confines of the semi-fictionalised plot.

So the mystery of his transformation remains.

And that's both a strength and weakness of the film.

Strength, because it is a nice parallel to the mysterious evil that surrounds Schindler.

Weakness, beacause it makes the Schindler character a hollow shell, a strangely empty character.

15232. Raskolnikov - 1/24/2001 5:26:08 PM

It isn't just close contact with the jews - it was personalizing/humanizing them. Schindler progress was helped by Kingsley. They could have chosen to contrast him with other industrialists to show how he was different, but they chose instead to use Fiennes as the foil, to what I think was better effect.

As to why Fiennes wasn't more lenient, I think the point was that once you dehumanized the Jews, voluntarily inhumane treatment was inevitable. My take on Fiennes was that he was forcing himself to dehumanize the jews in order to do his job, despite his better instincts, and that this is partly what drove him insane.

15233. arkymalarky - 1/24/2001 9:32:44 PM

I'm late to this conversation on Spielberg, but I agree totally with FU's
"Spielberg is a fine director. His problem is simple. He often cannot resist the maudlin, and he rarely trusts communication of emotional import without aid of a sledgehammer," and Schindler's List was the first film of his since The Duel (still love that movie) that didn't make me feel that way. I detest ET.

I was sort of ambivalent about the red dress (I actually thought it was a little overcoat), but the hiding in the latrine scene was the one that made the big 11th grade boy student I'd taken with 32 other kids have to head for the bathroom to throw up.

I personally was really affected by the scene when the Nazis first came into the ghetto and people were going to hiding places, swallowing diamonds in balls of bread, etc, and the Nazis shooting through the floor at those hiding underneath. Those are the scenes I remember most vividly about the movie, not having seen it since it came out in theaters.

15234. Toenails - 1/25/2001 6:17:55 AM

"Think about it. Think about what a left-handed compliment that is.

"'And now... here are some good scenes from BAD MOVIES otherwise underserving of an award!'"

ACE -- RE your #15227:

My point wasn't that these short takes HAD to come from bad movies. I would expect that most nominated vignettes would, in fact, come from excellent movies. It's just that it is conceivable that you could have a nominee, or even a winner, from an otherwise undistinguished film.

This happens often enough for best song nominees and winners, and it happens fairly frequently for supporting actor/actress awards as well. The individual's good work is recognized despite its having been in a mediocre context.

15235. DocBrown - 1/25/2001 3:57:13 PM

Last night was the season championship of Junkyard Wars.

15236. JudithAtHome - 1/25/2001 6:19:47 PM

Here's a little something to whet your appetite for Shadow Of The Vampire :

Prince of Darkness

"Art -- authentic art -- is simple. But simplicity demands the maximum of artistry. The camera is the director's pencil. It should have the greatest possible mobility in order to record the most fleeting harmony of atmosphere. It is important that the mechanical factor should not stand between the spectator and the film."

-- F.W. Murnau, as quoted by Ludwig Gesek (from Lotte Eisner's `The Haunted Screen)

15237. Cellar Door - 1/25/2001 7:41:01 PM

Is this a good time to bring up "1941"?

Saw a wonderful Spanish movie lastnight called "Nico and Dani." It's about teenage best friends: one gay one straight. I'll post my review when it runs next week.

But suffice to say it's really nice to see a film that isn't condescending to teenagers. The boys are neither comic dorks, as in "American Pie," or wet sops as in "Summer of '42."

And they're not freaks as in "Kids," either.

15238. ChristinO - 1/25/2001 8:09:25 PM

Toe,

It would mean that John Voight could be recognized for his outstanding performance in Anaconda, a truly awful movie, and Ashley Judd could've taken home an Oscar for her 3-minute cameo in Smoke which is quite possibly the best she will ever be (no small acheivement if you've seen the clip I'm talking about).

15239. AceofSpades - 1/25/2001 8:50:40 PM

Hey-- voigt was pretty damn good in anaconda, wasn't he?

I didn't think the film was "terrible," though. Considering what it was -- a giant animal monster movie-- it was great.

Compare it to total misfires like The Relic, etc.

15240. Rosetta Stone - 1/25/2001 8:59:25 PM

Of the subject, but we just rented "Road Trip." I don't think I've ever been grossed out more than watching Tom Green eating that pet mouse.

15241. wonkers2 - 1/25/2001 10:36:30 PM

Saw "Oh Brother Where Art Thou." Very funny movie. Rack up another winner for the bros. Coen. The music was good, too.

15242. rubberducky - 1/26/2001 9:35:03 AM

the obligatory ‘Top Superbowl Ads’ article

15243. tucker - 1/26/2001 9:38:08 AM

Hello. I've never posted in the movies thread here - I usually hang out in Table Talk.

So anyway, I saw Gohatto (Taboo) last night. It was directed by the same guy that did Realm of the Senses about 12 years ago, if any of you saw that. Gohatto was compelling and certainly very visually beautiful, but boy, did I not get it. Did anyone else see it?

15244. rubberducky - 1/26/2001 9:41:13 AM

hi tucker

is Gohatto a recent movie? i've never heard of it, but then sometimes i don't keep up.

15245. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 9:43:07 AM

Cool link, Ducks...did you vote? I voted for Mean Joe Green before I read the article all the way through and realized the "When I Grow Up" ad was listed, too...I love that ad! But I also recall my first reaction to the Coke ad, too...it was pretty powerful advertising.

We should have an informal vote on best ad on Monday. I hope they have great ads because I fear the game will be a yawner.

15246. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 9:44:28 AM

I never saw it, either, but welcome to Movies & TV, Tucker!

15247. rubberducky - 1/26/2001 9:46:00 AM

i think the Monster ad was more effective, but that could be cuz i am a little young to remember the Apple and Mean Joe Green ads - i only know them in the abstract.

15248. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 9:49:56 AM

Well, I'm very much old enough to remember all of them...and I was a huge fan of Greene. It was almost a sappy ad but for some overly emotional people, it was a choker and misty eyes were not rare...

15249. tucker - 1/26/2001 10:03:45 AM

Hi, rubberducky. Gohatto has been in Chicago for about a week.

15250. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 10:28:59 AM

Tucker:

Try this link for some viewer comments on Gohatto.

15251. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 10:33:53 AM

I saw it, Tucker. It was on my Top Ten list.

What didn't you "get"?

15252. tucker - 1/26/2001 10:41:45 AM

Thanks, Judith. I love IMDB - but I feel like I saw a different movie than most of the other people who commented. To me the homosexuality and the samurai stuff was beside the point - the film seemed to treat desire itself - any desire - as fatal.

15253. rubberducky - 1/26/2001 10:47:21 AM

homosexual samurai ?

well well

looks like something i'll have to catch!

15254. tucker - 1/26/2001 10:51:18 AM

There are some very beautiful men in it, and excellent fight scenes!

15255. tucker - 1/26/2001 10:57:22 AM

CellarDoor - Pretty much the last fourth of the movie. Why not execute Kano's lover publically, if they believe he had been killing the others? What happened at the very end? Did he go back to kill Kano? Why? Why tell the story of "A Vow Between Two Men"? What was implied by the vow Kano was keeping with regard to not cutting his hair?

15256. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 10:59:53 AM

I love Japanese movies. Cellar, I don't suppose this is on video yet?

Tucker, did you ever see Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence ?

15257. tucker - 1/26/2001 11:04:07 AM

No, I didn't see it.

15258. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 11:06:18 AM

It's a truly mysterious movie, and very, very Japanese.

Set at the end of the Samurai era, it concerns an elite unit where an incredibly beautiful recuit joins and by his very presence alone drives his fellow-samurais wild with desire. (So much for Gays in the Military!)

One of them formally declares his attraction for the dreamboat. But instead of the expected blossoming for a love affair, the beloved steers clear of the rejected suitor and instead takes up with a much less attractive older samurai who he holds in thrall.

The entire samurai tradition, competent historians have noted, is held together by same-sexuality. It was neither "celebrated" nor derided. Just accepted as part of the way things are. Oshima's story, however, deals with same-sex passion as potentially destructive. Moreover, it's told from the standpoint of a samurai not directly involved with the leading participants. Played by Beat Takeshi, he's something on the order of a detective in a police procedural. The thing is, he's examining the situation before a crime has been committed. He wants to find out why people are behaving the way theydo. And he wants to do so in a way that's particularly Japanese -- eschewing psychology as it's normally dealt with in the West.

The crux of the mystery is Just What Is It with this hunk-a-hunk-a-burnin' Samurai, anyway? Why does he reject someone who loves him directly for someone who wants im more furtively? And why does he prefer the older man to the younger, farmore suitable one? A clue is in the fact that he declares that the reason he wanted to become a samurai was in order to kill. And he does dispatch several people for one reason or another in the course of the action. Yet he remains as mysterious and elusive as Gene Tierney in "Leave Her To Heaven."

15259. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 11:09:48 AM

It all reaches aclimax in the last shot, in which Takeshi, in one swift move, cuts down a tree. Why does he do it? Because it's beautiful.

And beauty is dangerous.

Oshima,BTW, directed this entire film from a wheelchair. He has suffered a series of strokes in recent years that has greatly debilitated him. it's the reason why this is his first film since "Max Mon Amour" in 1986. He was planning to make a film about Rudolph Valentino and Sessue Hayakawa. But that went south some years back when his health went south. I'm told he's almost fully recovered now. He's in his 70's, I believe.

15260. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 11:31:57 AM

Thanks for that background, Cellar...I'd have loved the movie about Valentino/Hayakawa.


Boy, how the mighty (lucky) have fallen...here is a sobering announcement on the fickleness of fame:

"Brett Butler performs at 8&10pm Friday; 7&9pm Saturday at Hyenas Comedy Night Club in Fort Worth...

Not only is she appearing in comedy clubs but she's doing multiple shows...what a comedown for a lady who had her own show on network TV.

15261. rubberducky - 1/26/2001 11:36:00 AM

outta control drugs and alcohol will do it every time

she was amusing enough at Rob Reiner's roast (shown on Comedy Central), but i think she was on more as a 'hey - i'm still alive' kind of appearance

15262. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 11:42:34 AM

Her story is a really, really sad one. She's very talented, and her show was quite interesting for what it was. The producers saw her as a low-key Roseanne. Little did they know they were going out of the frying pan into another frying pan.

15263. rubberducky - 1/26/2001 11:43:53 AM

i liked it for about 2 seasons - and then it really tired after that and i think she knew it

15264. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 11:46:29 AM

I know it's unrealistic to think people can learn from others mistakes...look at Liza Minnelli!....but you'd think eventually someone would say, "Hey...look at those washed up has-beens..that could be me" and get some control.

15265. DanDillon - 1/26/2001 11:49:38 AM

Welcome to The Mote, tuck.

Did you happen to see Gohatto at that supreme monument to the cinema? The Music Box?

sigh

Oh, how I miss the Music Box! Hope to see you around here often.

15266. tucker - 1/26/2001 11:55:22 AM

Yes, I saw it last night at the Music Box, following a fabulous meal at Bistro Zinc. hehehehehehhehehe.

15267. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 12:02:56 PM

Where's The Music Box?
New York? Chicago?
(I live in L.A.)

15268. DanDillon - 1/26/2001 12:03:27 PM

And Bistro Zinc, too! Oh, woe is me! My wife and I used to frequent there for the patés, cheeses, and charcuterie. Le poulet grande-mere, le cassoulet en hiver.... mon dieu.

Of course, the bar-b-q in K.C. surely does the trick.






We need a Travel & Food thread.

15269. DanDillon - 1/26/2001 12:05:00 PM

Chi-town. Windy city. The midway. City of big shoulders. Hog butcher to the world.

15270. tucker - 1/26/2001 12:06:09 PM

Music Box is in Chicago.

I had the poulet-grand mere last night. And the creme brulee.

But it's true, I haven't found any good barbeque here.

15271. DanDillon - 1/26/2001 12:07:48 PM

Best fucking creme brulee in the world.

15272. tucker - 1/26/2001 12:09:24 PM

I agree!

15273. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 12:10:20 PM

Dan:

We need a Travel & Food thread.

It starts on Feb 1...

15274. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 12:46:01 PM

"Why not execute Kano's lover publically, if they believe he had been killing the others? What happened at the very end? Did he go back to kill Kano? Why? Why tell the story of "A Vow Between Two Men"? What was implied by the vow Kano was keeping with regard to not cutting his hair?"

These are all excellent questions that Oshima leaves deliberately unanswered. And the reason for that is Kano so discombobulates everything. Because of his disruptive beauty, all bets are off.

I think he keeps his hair long for the very reason that it sets him apart from the others, and they'll have to wonder why he does so. The "vow" us a ruse in this regard.

15275. tucker - 1/26/2001 2:30:51 PM

Cellar Door, thanks for your response. I guess I just find that unsatisfying, that "Beauty is dangerous" and that's it. I know that he is saying beauty is dangerous and disruptive, as is desire, but so many questions were raised (for me) about Kano and his motivations, that it's frustrating not to be able to answer any of them.

15276. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 6:14:16 PM

Well that's the conflict between Western psycologizing and Eastern acceptance. What the Takeshi character is trying to do is not discover "motive" in the sense we're used to, but reasoning. In going over the events he's trying to rediscover the path Kano toward his deeds, and make sense of them in -- for want of a better word -- moral terms. He wants to be able to put himself into Kano's shoes. That's the only level of"understanding"required.He can't do that. And so in the end he cuts down the tree. It's the only logical thing to do. The tree is beautiful, and therefore threatening, and therefore must die.

15277. JudithAtHome - 1/26/2001 6:46:11 PM

The tree is beautiful, and therefore threatening, and therefore must die.

I hope this philosophy doesn't catch on.....

15278. CalGal - 1/26/2001 7:22:44 PM

Has anyone seen the Zulu DVD yet? Does it have extras? I have a gift certificate from Amazon and am debating what to buy.

15279. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 9:28:08 PM

I have "Zulu" on laser. I wrote the notes for it. It's a fantastic action-adventure movie. Cy Endfield is a neglected minor master. Some film encyclopedias list him as being South African because of this film. He was actually from the midwest! An assistant to Orson Welles, Endfield was like Welles a magician. He was also an inventor. Blacklisted, he moved to England. His greatest film is "Try and Get Me" aka. "The Sound of Fury" (1951, I think) starring Frank Lovejoy and Lloyd Bridges. It's the most excoriating critique of capitalism's effect on the lower middle-class and poor that I've ever seen, ending with a lynch-mob scene whose power has never been equalled.

Considering the timesin which it was made, it's ample reason for throwing himout of the U.S.

15280. CalGal - 1/26/2001 9:43:31 PM

I just read the Amazon comments on the DVD, and apparently it's pan and scan?

15281. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 9:57:59 PM

WHAT?!?!

Outrageous! My laser is letterboxed.

15282. CalGal - 1/26/2001 10:10:57 PM

Yes, that's why I'm glad I checked. It is a 6 week wait for the DVD and I'm not going to take any chances. I've seen it on AMC twice, letterboxed. I'll tape it before I buy pan and scan.

I saw Ride the High Country on TMC over the weekend. Letterboxed. Nirvana.

15283. Cellar Door - 1/26/2001 10:27:24 PM

Just got DVD's of "The Wild Bunch," "Bride of Frankenstein," "Round Midnight," "Bird," and "Mo Better Blues." I'm reviewing them all for CDNow.

15284. Shannon - 1/26/2001 10:56:19 PM

Ah, Round Midnight. My first college boyfriend's (AKA Psycho Republican Boyfriend) favorite movie. His second favorite was Repo Man.

15285. Fraaankster - 1/26/2001 11:55:23 PM

(snif)

I know it's been knocked in here by several posters ( Can't think of them at the moment ), but I think I've discovered that it is possible to reheat a souffle. I'm talking about the TV series, The Fugitive, which is on at the moment. The writing on this show surpasses the original by leaps and bounds, particularly when it comes to the depth of the characters -- all the characters.

Alcoholism and an estranged mom and daughter form the backdrop to tonight's episode.

15286. Fraaankster - 1/26/2001 11:58:38 PM

...It's gonna get axed, I know it, but hey, I bet Nash Bridges comes back for another season.

sigh

15287. Fraaankster - 1/27/2001 12:01:54 AM

Hey, the plug just mentioned that the program has been moved an hour later for next week, with a new episode placing Kimble hiding out in a psychiatric ward. I hope the new slot breaths new life into it. It ranked a pitiful 80th last week -- 80th!

15288. Fraaankster - 1/27/2001 1:50:44 AM

Out of the 136 shows rated last week, here are just some of the shows that trumped The Fugitive last week:


9th - "Temptation Island": Does it really warrant comment ?

10th -"Friends" : I suppose comment is possible, if I subtracted 20 years off my age -- make that 30 (I'm 43).

17th - "Everybody Loves Raymond": Yawn

23td - "Touched By An Angel": People actually make time to watch this slop, huh ?

24th - (Tied) "Becker": Does Ted Danson really need the money this bad ?
24th - "The Weber Show" : ???

26th "King of Queens" : What next, Welcome Back Kotter ?

41st "Dharma and Greg": Yawn. I tried watching it. I tried, I tried ...

(More crap)
45th - "The Mole": Is it the sabotage premise, or the fact that its set in Europe ?

48th "Walker, Texas Ranger" : Another martial arts hero long ago displaced by your average Nintendo games...the Nintendo games are actually more reality based.

50th "The X-Files": The original Outer Limits, with its $6.29 production budget set a standard this show, and others like it, have tried to usurp since its introduction. I never saw what all the fuss was about.

53td "Whose Line Is It Anyway" : Psssst. The British original still shown on the Comedy network still rocks -- your endorphins would know the difference. Trust me.

Continued...

15289. Fraaankster - 1/27/2001 1:51:34 AM

58th "Nash Bridges": sigh The only thing that saves me from completely ripping this "gem", is the classic car he drives on the show.

61st "Diagnosis Murder": ... Maybe if Van Dyke would begin the show by tripping over a gurney, or having an episode on autopsies, a perfect role for his former co-star, Morey Amsterdam ?

Sorry 'bout the mixing of genres and time slots, et all, but I certainly hope The Fugitive's chances improve with its new time slot. Give it a chance, CBS, give it a damn chance!

G'night,y'all!

15290. AceofSpades - 1/27/2001 1:55:38 AM

"The original Outer Limits, with its $6.29 production budget set a standard this show, and others like it, have tried to usurp since its introduction. I never saw what all the fuss was about."

Outer Limits set the standard?

Didn't Twillight Zone set the standard for Outer Limits?

I'm younger, and I wasn't around when either debuted, but I thought that TZ was the "original," and OL a competent, well-liked imitation, featuring less Apocalypse-Noir philosophy and more monsters in rubber suits.

15291. CalGal - 1/27/2001 2:01:14 AM

Yeah, TZ was first.

15292. Fraaankster - 1/27/2001 3:22:15 AM

Well, yeah, the Twilight Zone was first in terms of setting off this genre at the time, but TZ suffered from what were obviously rushed, compressed scripts -- they only had all of 22 minutes to make it work, mind you. If suspending belief is what you are aiming for, the Twilight Zone, with its time contraints and tongue firmly in place, came up short -- big time.
The Outer Limits had twice the time to work in its magic. Great writers ( They owned the patent on introspective and soul searching scripts ), character development, music scoring, direction, and the subsequent beautiful work those directors employed involving camera angles and lighting took a viewer to a level that The Twilight Zone rarely could approached. Watching just about every Outer Limit episode made me wonder whether the studio had paid its electric bill -- an effect frequently employed by the aforementioned "X-Files"...Talk about a show making the most out of a situation ( director's talents ) while working with shoestring budgets ?

...They played to different audiences: I happen to think that Serling's Twilight Zone's aim was to entertain, leave one with a smile. The Outer Limits was there purely to scare the shit out of one -- and it often succeeded. That's why I compared it to The Outer Limits, and not The Twilight Zone.

Also, I certainly don't remember all of both show's episodes, but I believe that the Apocalypse-Noir philosophy you brought up, Ace, came out with The Outer Limits dominating that, on a ratio basis, of course. The Twilight Zone's run was a hell of a lot longer.

Oops, Politically Incorrect is on.

Good night again, y'all!

15293. AceofSpades - 1/27/2001 3:33:26 AM

...but I believe that the Apocalypse-Noir philosophy you brought up, Ace, came out with The Outer Limits dominating that, on a ratio basis, of course...

No way. I don't know either damn show, to be honest, but Apocalypse-Noir philosophy is what TZ traded in. Every damn show I've ever seen (and I haven't seen many) is about:

1) The End of the World due to atomic apocalypse
2) Astronauts who arrive on a desolate planet, only to eventually discover it's EARTH!!!, destroyed by an atomic apocalypse
3) Aliens warning us about atomic apocalypse
4) Astronauts who land on "Morgue Planets" filled with realistic-looking human manikins in 1950's era small town "sets," which turn out to be a big museum exhibits of what Earth was like, that is, before the atomic apocalypse destroyed it
5) Astronauts who leave a planet, just as it's destroyed by an atomic apocalypse, only to land on a nice planet where this male and female astronaut decide to re-start the human race... and it turns out their names are Adam and Eve, and the new planet is really earth (a million years before it will itself be destroyed by an atomic apocalypse)
and:
6) Humans who are kept in zoos by aliens. Atomic apocalypse figures somehow in the back-story.

15294. CalGal - 1/27/2001 3:42:59 AM

TZ scripts were rushed? Are you joking? I believe that was their greatest strength.

15295. Cellar Door - 1/27/2001 11:24:14 AM

I prefer "Nash Bridges" with the original cast.

15296. don s. - 1/27/2001 12:41:51 PM

I got an e-mail from buy.com on Thursday informing me that they had shipped my copy of the The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie DVD. USPS Priority, which means I might get it today. I ordered it on Oct. 14.

15297. CalGal - 1/27/2001 12:50:56 PM

Why did it take so long? Is that normal? (asks a confirmed Amazon user)

15298. AytchMan - 1/27/2001 2:42:46 PM

Hey, don't nobody tap dance on Twilight Zone. I knew Twilight Zone. Twilight Zone was a friend of mine. Outer Limits was no Twilight Zone.

With a couple of exceptions toward the end, Serling's TZ scripts were superb. Working deep social commentary into an entertainment show is a fine and, apparently, lost art. Witness the hit-and-miss floundering of West Wing after a good start.

Ace is right in 290:

TZ was the "original," and OL a competent, well-liked imitation, featuring less Apocalypse-Noir philosophy and more monsters in rubber suits.

but misses a point. Serling captured the dark side of human nature but always left an out. His scripts were thought-pieces that ruminated "There's an Apocalypse out there unless...", usually leaving it to the audience to solve the "unless".

15299. AytchMan - 1/27/2001 2:50:35 PM

Serling's aim with TZ was very definitely not to make the audience smile. If anything, he wanted us to frown and then think. Naturally, he was bound by the market values of TV in those days (which is to say, somewhat less than today) and a few of the shows were lighter in tone. But he had some serious battles with the suits toward the end over the show's focus.

15300. CalGal - 1/27/2001 4:45:16 PM

Finding Forrester:

Nothing original in this tale, although I don't see the major resemblance to Good Will Hunting that is touted, but rather a thousand previous pieces of schlock on fish out of water youths and their inspirational teachers who have withdrawn from society. The pedestrian story is further undercut by a really god-awful ending, which was lousy enough the first time I had to suffer through it in Scent of a Woman.

But this one is worth a watch anyway, once it's out for rental. Sean Connery doesn't phone it in as yet another reclusive writer who disappeared after writing The One Great Book, but takes it a bit farther into a worthwhile performance--certainly not one of his best, but much better than any of his recent work. Rob Brown is excellent in an impossible part--a brilliant, incredibly well-read black kid who uses his knowledge of the writer's identity as a mild form of blackmail.

The other reason for tuning in: a really remarkable basketball competition between the only two black kids at a tony prep school where Brown ends up after his extraordinarily high test scores are discovered. Very informative, in its own way, and explains more about inner city priorities and values than a hundred earnest tracts on the subject.

Halfway through the film, Spawn turned to me and whispered, "This is a great movie!" That, too, is information worth registering. Any movie that values writing, brains, and honesty and doesn't turn off teens has clearly done something right.

15301. mgleason - 1/27/2001 7:04:52 PM

A little something for everyone this evening chez moi: The Art of War and High Fidelity.

15302. CalGal - 1/27/2001 7:27:21 PM

I wish I could remember where I read the term "white guys in suits movie". Great phrase, and an apt description of Thirteen Days, a solid entry in this sub-genre of political thrillers, although certainly not up to Seven Days in May or Advise and Consent.

Good performances by everyone with the exception of Costner, who is never much fun when he's in dogmatic mode. Of particular note is Bruce Greenwood as JFK, who focused on substance rather than mannerisms. Watch the guy move. While I've known for some time that Kennedy lived in continual pain and wasn't all that healthy, Greenwood's performance really brought this fact home, while never once overplaying the winces as he shifted to a more comfortable position.

Lots of fun, intelligent, nicely paced, well worth seeing.

15303. JudithAtHome - 1/27/2001 7:43:35 PM

Cal:

We just watched Way Of The Gun. Do you happen to recall when a discussion about it occurred? Did you see it?

15304. AceofSpades - 1/27/2001 7:48:26 PM

JAH:

Niner and I argued about it some time ago. Perhaps three weeks or a month ago.

15305. JudithAtHome - 1/27/2001 7:53:41 PM

Ace:

Did you like it? My husband thought it was derivative of a Japanese movie he'd see years ago...we both liked it somewhat but were glad for the rewind function...dialogue was really muffled at times.

15306. AceofSpades - 1/27/2001 7:55:39 PM

I didn't like it, except for the first five minutes. Niner liked it much more, rating it something like a B.

15307. JudithAtHome - 1/27/2001 7:59:40 PM

Well, maybe he'll talk to me about it sometime...off to watch The Limey and Boondock Saints now...it was Keonis week to pick the videos!

15308. Cellar Door - 1/28/2001 10:53:55 AM

Went to a special screening of "The Day of the Locust" last night at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art. It was part of the Los Angeles Film Critics Association tribute to Conrad Hall, who won our Lifetime Achievement Award this year. Quite a nice crowd showed up. Robert Towne interviewed Hall on stage and clips from "American Beauty," "In Cold Blood," and "Tequila Sunrise" were shown, with Hall discussing how storytelling is the most important aspect of his craft. Then "Day of the Locust" came on, and my God it's better than I remembered it. I haven't seen it since 1974 when it came out and failed. No surprise on that score. It's a faithful adaptation of a novel that tells this culture precisely what it doesn't want to hear about itself.

Karen Black, in the utlimate Karen Black performance is extraordinary, and Schlesinger directs it all with amazing proficiency and precision. When a film's really working certain moments in it will stay with you forever. For me it was a haunting shot of Leilia Goldoni dressed to the nines standing in the windwow of the brothel (whose Madame is Natalie Schaffer!), glimpsed by William Atherton's Todd Hackett. Billy Barty brought down the house, as usual, when he climbs up on abar,walsk across it and pours himself a drink -- and the sequence of the set collapsing has never been bettered.

Donald Sutherland, also brought down the house for reasons unforseen when the film was made, for his first line is "Hello, I'm Homer Simpson."

15309. Cellar Door - 1/28/2001 10:57:49 AM

My date for the evening, BTW, was Jon Scher -- who's still running into people telling him how crazy they are about "Urbania." His next film is going to be about the New York Club scene in the 80's-- but not the famous disco murder club kids story that Bailey and Barbato have wrapped up. Rather he wants to talk about real estate,and how Giuliani reshaped the city. it will also deal with a storysimilar to the one James B. Stewart related in his "Death of a Partner"piece in the "New Yorker" several years ago -- about a real estatetycoon with important Times Square properties -- who was killed by one of the black teenage drug addicted hustlers he fancied.

15310. Cellar Door - 1/28/2001 11:03:45 AM

And now for some bad news.

Jerome Hellman was there. He produced "Day of the Locust," and "Midnight Cowboy," and other notable films,including one of my personal favorites,"The World of henry Orient." He told mehe'salways running into 40 year-old women who tell him that tha they had a best friend exactly like th girls in thatmovie. He said both he and George Roy Hill had teenage daughters at the time the film was made, so they knew exactly what they were doing.

Then he toldme that Hill, who hasn't worked in years, is now suffering from the most advanced stages of Parkinson's disease. He's at home in Connecticut, completely discombobulated. His memory is gone, and occasionally he'll rise up and announce that he has to fly to Paris for an important engagement. Really, really sad.
He's directed some of the most beloved popular entertainments of all-time ("Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" anyone? How about "The Sting"?), and he's never really gotten his proper due for them.

Now it's too late.

15311. CalGal - 1/28/2001 11:24:28 AM

That is really sad--although I've always thought that George Roy Hill was highly regarded.

He directed both Redford/Newman movies (winning an Oscar for The Sting), as well as Waldo Pepper and Slapshot with each of the stars individually. He also made the goofy Thoroughly Modern Millie and, I believe, discovered Diane Lane, who he cast in A Little Romance--another teen coming of age movie. I prefer it to Henry Orient, but that's due in part to my preference for Lane over the two girls in Orient. And of course, he made Garp and Slaughterhouse Five, two books that really were tough to convert.

He's not that old at all, either.

15312. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 12:43:37 PM

Day of the Locust has been one of my favorite movies since it's release...I couldn't believe it wasn't a huge hit. I was responsible for having it as one our Film Society's showcase films for one week back in the early 80s and many members had never seen it...we ran it for 4 days, twice a night, and I watched some or all of the showings. Our FS had the advantage of access to one of the last old theaters in Fort Worth...unfortunately, both the theater and the society are things of the past now.

I loved the "orange" motif that ran through the film...from the rotting oranges falling from the trees in Homers yard to the shot of the smog choked sun in the sky over LA...there were orange sightings all through the film. I thought it was because of the "your own orange tree in your own yard" come-on lure of the California dream.

15313. Cellar Door - 1/28/2001 1:31:36 PM

Seeing it again brought home the fact that a lot of Los Angeles isn't as disposable as I once thought. The courtyard apartment building that Todd and the others live in was there at the time of the story, there in 1974, and still there today. Likewise the Frank Lloyd Wright house where the Art Director lives.

15314. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 1:33:07 PM

I love that house! It's been used in several pictures...

15315. Cellar Door - 1/28/2001 1:35:47 PM

"Blade Runner" to name one.

15316. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 1:39:17 PM

Yes...and didn't they use the Bradbury Building in that one, too?

15317. Cellar Door - 1/28/2001 2:22:39 PM

Oh yes! Not just the building, but they re-created the entire corner. The "Million Dollar Theater" is right across the street from the Bradbury Building -- as shown in "Blade Runner."

15318. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 2:31:52 PM

Last night, we watched Way of the Gun and The Limey ,both of which we liked, and then tried to watch 2 others which were dreadful, something called The Boondock Saints which Willem DaFoe must have owed the director or producer a big time debt to be in it, and Cradle Will Rock ,an abysmally slow piece of dreck which we quit watching about 45 minutes in though it seemed like 4 hours....

After all that, we decided to try something completely different and watched The End Of The Affair ....it was fantastic and we both were in tears throughout much of it. Julianne Moore was robbed of that oscar...what a beautifully sad movie.

15319. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 2:32:17 PM

...big O oscar.

15320. mgleason - 1/29/2001 1:14:34 AM

Gosh, three Arnold movies today: Total Recall, Terminator, and T2 (the one with the extra bits).

15321. AceofSpades - 1/29/2001 1:40:08 AM

"I love that house! It's been used in several pictures..."

It's been used in so many pictures that Ridley Scott's cinematographer told him "You simply cannot shoot this building again. It's been done too many times. Being British, you don't realize how many goddamn movies this has already been in. You can't shoot it again without people immediately knowing they've seen it before."

"Not the way I'm going to shoot it," Scott replied.

I have no idea if he succeeded, because I don't remember really seeing the buidling before.

Other news:

Survivor II looks pretty good. I liked it, and I did not find it wanting compared to the original.

The secret sauce? Probably editing. Probably some story sense. Good casting.

Deb was very funny tonight. Too bad she won't be around any longer. She's such an outrageously grandiose, bad liar, it's a shame she won't be around to provide further amusing lies.

15322. Toenails - 1/29/2001 8:10:28 AM

Let me suggest, early-on, a special thread for "Survivor II" buffs, so the rest of us can avoid wading thru inane discussions of which Yuppie idiot is going to outlast the other Yuppie idiots and earn $1 million and 15 minutes.

15323. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 8:43:02 AM

Yes, it's not as though it were some obscure movie starring a has-been Albanian actor about the meaning of life in a bleak futuristic universe with furry, squeaking aliens who fly around in teakettles.

God forbid someone would want to talk about something millions of people actually watch.

15324. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 8:55:01 AM

At the risk of being frivilous, I liked the "running of the squirrels" ad last night and thought the rest were lousy, except for one or two I can barely recall this morning.

15325. Francis Urquhart - 1/29/2001 9:15:29 AM

Traffic

Political issue dramas grappling with the questions of our day, as Traffic attempts with the war on drugs, are tough nuts. Bad ones, such as televison's "The West Wing", don't really have characters. They have caricatures, all designed to reflect the essential goodness of the particular issue (or the badness of a caricature who differs on the issue). I laughed out loud last week as as I watched the unveiling of a sop to the conservatives, a lithe blonde who interviews for a position with The White House, witnesses the essential goodness of those saintly souls, and thereafter, upbraids her snobby, bad conservative friends who have the audacity to call the folks in the White House worthless (and she took the job, thereby verifying her worth).

Decent political dramas honor character over political message, even if the message is heavy-handed ("Salvador," "Philadelphia").

The best ones inject the political in the natural language of the story, with all the nuances of any policy debate emanating from people in conversation, not platitude ("Dead Man Walking", "Fail Safe"), or the political message is subordinate to a seemless script, so much so that it hits you later ("The Parallax View", "The Best Man").

15326. Francis Urquhart - 1/29/2001 9:16:50 AM

Traffic is hit or miss on this front. Some of the message in this three track story - Mexican policeman Benicio Del Toro, San Diego affluent drug couple Catherine Zeta Jones and Steven Bauer, and Ohio family Michael Douglas and Amy Irving (he has just been appointed Drug Czar) - is properly tempered and blended (primarily, the track in Mexico). The rest is well-written but largely disinteresting melodrama seeking too much cover under the nagging self-importance of its mission. Yes, the drug war is futile. We got that in an early scene when the former Drug Czar (James Brolin) tells Douglas that
the drug war is futile.

So, the message is clear early. Let's get to the story. Except, there isn't much of a story. Director Stephen Soderbergh juggles the intersection of several lives in the "war on drugs", but nothing happens that is surprising, only a few things draw you in, and when you do become involved, Soderbergh is compelled to take you elsewhere to keep things balanced. With his frentic camera and his leap from place to place, you get the sesne that Soderbergh knows he is selling an empty vessel, so he juggles to keep you off balance. As such, the characters barely develop in a sometimes involving, sometimes
sleepy pastiche that would probably have been better written by John
Sayles, who has mastered multi-character films .

15327. Francis Urquhart - 1/29/2001 9:17:21 AM

Worse, writer Steve Gaghan stacks the deck, in the form of stilted speeches, again pronouncing the futility of the drug war. By my count, Miguel Ferrar (a busted middleman who is held by the detective Don Cheadle so that he can testify against Bauer) had two, a classmate of Douglas' drug-addict daughter had one, Brolin had one, and Douglas had a symblic one scarily reminiscent of the putrid "The American President" (thankfully, while the set-up for his speech was cheesy, it did not sink into the nauseating).

Also, Douglas, as the new drug czar, is almost laughably naif-like, thus allowing all the difficulties facing the suppression of drug importation and drug use to be introduced to the audience as even more daunting ("See, even the drug czar and his staff are stumped! And his daughter is freebasing! This must really be futile!") Albert Finney (the White House chief of staff who hired Douglas) may as well have hired Andy Griffith.

Finally, if security is anything as bad for immunized witnesses testifying against a major point of contact for a drug cartel as was depicted by Traffic, well, indeed, the drug war really must be futile.

15328. Francis Urquhart - 1/29/2001 9:17:51 AM

A few absurd plot contrivances mar the film further. Zeta-Jones becomes a cold, hard drug queen after her son is threatened. Her transformation is quicker than Bridget Fonda from housewife to money-grubber in last year's "A Simple Plan" and similarly unconvincing.
And Zet-Jones' problems are solved by way of a baby doll head that is made of cocaine (she offers this ingenious method of smuggling as a way to save her husband, child, and social standing). I would have preferred that she offer to have cocaine implanted in her breasts for ferry across the border, but apparently, inexplicably, out-of-nowhere baby doll heads constructed out of cocaine won the favor of Gaghan.

And unforgiveably, Gaghan actually uses the "Daddy drinks scotch, and it's the same as freebasing" argument from an old "Eight is Enough" (or is that "Room 222"?) This might have worked if the Douglas character were Walter Matthau, but the tired discussion between relatively young Douglas and Irving was painful.

Not to say that Traffic lacks genuine moments. The patter between the upper crust private school kids as they get high on various and sundry narcotics is well-written, as is most of the dialogue between del Toro and his Mexican counterparts and the easy patter between Cheadle and his partner. And, with the exception of Zeta-Jones (who sports a refined accent that would make Madonna cringe) the performances are all very convincing. Dennis Quaid, though his existence in the film is largely unnecessary, is comfortably slimy as a double-crossing sleazeball and del Toro will get a deserved supporting actor nomination as the policeman who gets wise to the
game.

In the end, however, this is a fair-to-middling issue drama best appreciated as a series of sketches. It gets pumped to an Oscar-worthy film because Hollywood has trumpeted it (and thus, itself) for political boldness on the issue. See "Bulworth."

15329. CalGal - 1/29/2001 9:21:11 AM

Ha, ha, ha.

I had a small bet with myself that you'd hate it.

Thus far, I haven't run into anyone pro-legalization or pro-morality who has thought it did a good job.

15330. wonkers2 - 1/29/2001 9:23:09 AM

Finally got around to watching the new Lolita last night. It held my attention, but the performances of none of the characters struck me as slice of life realism. Humbert didn't strike me as a real life pedophile nor did Lolita as a victim. Throughout I found myself picking holes in the logic or credibility of actions and lines. Seemed to me Humbert's and Lolita's relationship progressed too quickly and without much subtlety. Maybe the movie was intended as a phantasy rather than reality? Or maybe I'm just not in touch with the reality of nymphets and pedophiles.

15331. CalGal - 1/29/2001 9:37:26 AM

And unforgiveably, Gaghan actually uses the "Daddy drinks scotch, and it's the same as freebasing" argument from an old "Eight is Enough"

Well, actually, scotch and freebasing are the same, although you're off by about 20 years (if you're going to complain about something being hackneyed, then get your eras right).

Addiction is a disease. Douglas' daughter is an addict because she is genetically predisposed to the disease. That is several large countries away from making a tired old complaint about them being the same.

I agree about Zeta-Jones, although to my mind they made it barely plausible because to me, it's entirely believable that someone who whored to get a husband would have no qualms in turning to drugs to maintain her standard of living. But then, I thought it was pretty clear she was no "housewife" prior to that point.

The one complaint I have about Traffic is that the stories could have been more original. Zeta Jones could have been dealing with cops who arrested her because she used drug money, the daughter could have been a casual user, rather than an addict.

Oddly enough, though, it is when I read or hear from people like you that I realize that no, he couldn't be more original.

15332. rubberducky - 1/29/2001 9:47:13 AM

J@H:

that squirrel commercial was ok, but the one that made Ripley and i laugh out loud was the ETrade one with the chimp on the horse going thru a war zone type area littered with failed dot-coms (pimentoloaf.com & twistytie.com come to mind). at the end he is looking and taking it all in in and then you see a single tear roll down his cheek - very funny and completely unexpected. then the fade out to 'Invest Wisely'

the best of the bunch imo.

15333. Francis Urquhart - 1/29/2001 9:50:19 AM

Juditha

What did you think of Way of the Gun?

Cal

We can talk about "people like me" in the "People Like FU" thread. (g)

15334. CalGal - 1/29/2001 9:51:00 AM

Ha, a takeoff on the Injun litter commercial.

I saw the Bob Dole on that morning, and I thought it was extremely amusing, particularly the 7-11 worker.

15335. CalGal - 1/29/2001 10:00:41 AM

Frankie,

Well, as usual, there are many more people like you than like me. Maybe one of these days I'll be in the status quo.

Seriously, though, I haven't run into anyone who has an agenda about the WoD one way or another who liked it--and in all cases they make the same complaint about the movie.

I didn't see it as a polemic at all; I saw it as a very enjoyable action picture. But then, I have no agenda in the WoD, so I merely appreciated the fact that, for the most part, the environment in which the stories played out was accurate.

15336. Francis Urquhart - 1/29/2001 10:03:02 AM

Cal

If you get the chance, direct me to other reviews of the movie (I thought I'd seen one by you, Ace and Fielding).

As for Traffic being an "action" picture, I missed the action.

15337. CalGal - 1/29/2001 10:09:20 AM

Hmm. I thought that movies with explosions and shootings were generally considered action? Perhaps I was incorrect.

15338. rubberducky - 1/29/2001 10:17:24 AM

here's hoping all you Law & Order fans watched the new episodethis past week:

In what Wolf has labeled a "dangerous precedent," NBC announced it will never again air this week's episode of the Emmy-winning cop-and-lawyers drama, after the network fielded complaints from Hispanic groups who argued that it cast the Latino community in a bad light.

The episode in question, "Sunday in the Park with Jorge," aired Wednesday night and was inspired by the real-life "wildings" that occurred last June in Central Park, following the city's Puerto Rican Day Parade. The episode depicted a parade day rampage and a murder for which a Brazilian kid is convicted.

NBC had been discussing the matter with Hispanic groups, including the National Puerto Rican Coalition, prior to the episode's airing. But the network decided to let it run anyway.

By Thursday, the network apparently changed its mind, releasing a statement apologizing for "offending members of the Latino community" and vowing not to air it again.

how grossly stupid.

a 'community' is 'offended' by a story based on actual events! oh - the horror. whiney dumbfucks.

15339. glendajean - 1/29/2001 10:19:08 AM

I saw Hiddren Dragon, Crouching Tiger this weekend (or whatever it's real title is -- I am unsure about what is hidden, what is crouching and which comes first.

Lovely sets The wire acts were fun, at least at first. Best scene was the sword fight on the edge of an bent tall bamboo.

I've always lived my life with the belief that a hot cup of tea can settle one's nerves, and these characters do that, too, as they sit and reflect on life and a Jedi-like cult of crime fighters called the Wutan. But they also scramble up walls and and run over rooftops like snow boarders skiffing along snow bluffs. Perhaps, too much tea is too much.

15340. CalGal - 1/29/2001 10:19:40 AM

Francis,

I haven't found Fielding's review. Ace's is Message # 14869, mine is at Message # 15081. Ace also mentions the TNR review as one he agreed with.

However, given the fact that Ace likes it, I am forced to admit error. Ace has occasionally expressed strong support for the WoD, and he speaks well of it and notes that it isn't boring at all.

So it must be some other attribute that just correlates well with strong opinions on the Drug War and dislike of the film.

15341. CalGal - 1/29/2001 10:21:07 AM

Ducky,

That was really weird, wasn't it? Especially since they never mention what was wrong with the ep.

It was a pretty weak ep, so no terrible loss. But still.

15342. Francis Urquhart - 1/29/2001 10:27:34 AM

Cal

Thanks. Now I can find out what people like Ace and people like you think.

As for action pictures, to the extent eating is an action, you are correct. Traffic is an action picture, as is My Dinner with Andre.

15343. CalGal - 1/29/2001 11:10:09 AM

Francis,

Did Wally make Andre dig his own grave and blast the man's brains out while I went out for popcorn?

If you don't think Traffic is an action picture, or a good action picture, I'm sure there is a case to be made. Ignoring the explosions, the shootings, the murders, and the various cop stick 'em ups to liken the movie to a mild talk fest like Andre is a weak way to begin.

I think there is a good argument to be made for it not being a great picture, although I thought it was excellent. I can even point out most of the flaws myself, but always have to add that I enjoyed it more than any movie I'd seen that year (although I just saw Brother, which topped it), and that it handled addiction extraordinarily well, without overstating it.

I really do think that you, and others, greatly oversimplify the Douglas story, which is much stronger than a simple Afternoon Special. It seems to use the format deliberately to highlight the ways in which its message differs from those polemics.

15344. rubberducky - 1/29/2001 11:22:08 AM

i feel so left behind sometimes...

Rented Hollow Man this past weekend. taken as just a thriller with special effects, it was pretty good. some inventive ways were used to show the outline of Bacon's nude body and the face consistently looked right. it's a little heavy handed at times and obvious, but, for the genre, that's hardly uncommon enough to warrant criticism.

if you overlook various plotholes (one of which was shown to be an editing mistake in the DVD outtakes), bad science, and just sit back and wait for the killing, then you won't really be disappointed. there could have been more killing, i thought, but that's a common complaint from me from these types of flicks.

all in all, a good renter and gets 2.75 quacks outta 5.

15345. Raskolnikov - 1/29/2001 12:17:37 PM

Cellar: Has Hannibal been screened for critics yet? A friend wants us to take the afternoon off on the 9th to go see, and I am trying to figure out if it is worth the vacation time.

15346. CalGal - 1/29/2001 12:19:42 PM

You have to take vacation time to take an afternoon off? What sort of heathens do you work for?

15347. Raskolnikov - 1/29/2001 12:23:25 PM

Well, I could make up the time elsewhere in the week and piss off my wife, but that doesn't change the need for an upside.

15348. CalGal - 1/29/2001 12:26:21 PM

You don't just work a short week on occasion, to make up for all the times you work long weeks? Wow.

I am questioning the need to account for the time, not the need for an upside given that you don't get the time for free.

Heck, just sniffle and look pale all morning and announce that you're going home early.

I have no good feelings about Hannibal.

15349. Raskolnikov - 1/29/2001 12:29:52 PM

Different work cultures. I rarely have to work a long week.

15350. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 12:55:58 PM

FU:

What did you think of Way of the Gun?

I liked it, which is odd because I usually don't care for movies with lots of shooting and bullets blowing into peoplee bodies. My husband liked it a whole lot more than I and swears it is a Japanese Samurai movie.

I realized who the girl was as soon as James Caan said the words "my daughter"....one thing I liked a lot was the blonde looming in so many scenes; she was everywhere, floating past.

How'd you like it?

15351. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 1:00:12 PM

Ducks:

I missed a few commercials last night because we left the party to drive home in the torrential downpour that hit our city shortly after the second half got underway...when we got home, there'd been 2 more touchdowns scored!

The monkey ad sounds great; hope they run it sometime when I'm watching.

15352. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2001 1:24:35 PM

I guess it's bad form to post a magazine review here, but I cannot link because it's a subscription site. The Economist on Traffic:

STEVEN SODERBERGH, in "Traffic", aims for a wide-angle view of the American drugs scene, with three parallel but barely connecting storylines intended to convey the enormity of the drugs issue and to suggest that America's war against drugs is being lost. One story involves policing the United States-Mexican border, one the efforts of an arrested drug baron's wife to win back her comfortable way of life, and the third the discovery by a narcotics overlord that his own daughter is addicted. The structure comes from a British TV mini-series of the 1980s with the same name, updated to a contemporary American context.

Even at two and a half hours, however, entire aspects are overlooked. "Traffic" shows the pushers, the users and the war, but nothing about teaching young drug-takers to distinguish safe from not safe, nor about the supply lines to the dealers and the widespread corruption or tacit government support in producing countries. "Traffic" is a drama, after all, not a documentary or a newspaper editorial. Yet half-developed views on many aspects of drugs underlie much of the plot, without being articulated.

15353. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2001 1:25:24 PM

What Mr Soderbergh does achieve, wearing his pseudonymous hat as the cameraman "Peter Andrews", is a hand-held visual texture that distinguishes the American scenes from the Mexican ones by colour coding. In the American sequences, a wintry blue filter washes across the screen as if there were no end to misery; south of the border, it is all golden filters, as drug runners make a mockery of overworked and underpaid cops.

The script, however, struggles to fashion a coherent narrative out of a theme that perhaps needed four hours. And some scenes beggar belief. Would a parent, even a drugs tsar (Michael Douglas), snatch his daughter from the classroom and drag her across town in search of her drugs supplier? And could a gangster's wife (Catherine Zeta Jones) turn overnight from frivolous lady-who-lunches into a ruthless killer?

"Traffic", an Oscar possibility that is in contention at the Berlin film festival, is doing well, not brilliantly, at the box office.

15354. Cellar Door - 1/29/2001 1:43:59 PM

The All-Media of "Hannibal" is next week.

15355. CalGal - 1/29/2001 2:00:44 PM

And could a gangster's wife (Catherine Zeta Jones) turn overnight from frivolous lady-who-lunches into a ruthless killer?


She was Eurotrash prior to her marriage and apparently a mid-level whore. She also wasn't a killer herself, but rather someone who knew how to order the help around. I agree that Zeta Jones character was weak, but it seemed reasonably clear to me that it wasn't a transformation, but a removal of recently applied varnish.

Would a parent, even a drugs tsar (Michael Douglas), snatch his daughter from the classroom and drag her across town in search of her drugs supplier?

Actually? Yes. I found that quite believable. Not all of us are well-behaved. Were my son in trouble and I knew a kid who could help out, woe betide the idiot who tried to stop me from co-opting him into the effort.

One of the things not mentioned about the Douglas story line is that they are pretty realistic about their daughter. They don't go overboard in blaming other people--and both are willing to at least hint at the possibility that she gets it from them.

15356. wonkers2 - 1/29/2001 10:23:06 PM

I thought the daughter and the Benicio del Toro character did the best acting jobs in the movie.

15357. AceofSpades - 1/30/2001 3:42:46 AM

"I laughed out loud last week as as I watched the unveiling of a sop to the conservatives, a lithe blonde who interviews for a position with The White House, witnesses the essential goodness of those saintly souls, and thereafter, upbraids her snobby, bad conservative friends who have the audacity to call the folks in the White House worthless (and she took the job, thereby verifying her worth). "

hee hee hee. I thought I was the only one who noticed.

The Message: Conservatives are merely liberals who haven't had a Religious Conversion via spneding five minutes with a saintly liberal.

15358. CalGal - 1/30/2001 3:47:26 AM

Well, it was a rerun. And I do believe we all sniggered about that the first time it ran.

She was supposed to be a regular but only showed up twice. Actually, I liked her 2nd amendment spiel quite a bit. The voucher one was weaker.

15359. AceofSpades - 1/30/2001 3:51:52 AM

"I would have preferred that she offer to have cocaine implanted in her breasts for ferry across the border, but apparently, inexplicably, out-of-nowhere baby doll heads constructed out of cocaine won the favor of Gaghan."

They weren't "out of nowhere," FU, and I'm surprised you of all people didn't notice.

Where did they come from? Why, directly from the James Bond Drug War movie "License to Kill." There, cocaine was chemically mixed with gasoline; here, it's chemically polymerized into soft rubber. Same trick.

It is, I admit, sort of hard to take a "serious movie" very seriously at all if it cribs spy-tech plot devices from James Bond films of the Timothy Dalton era.

I suppose my own expectations -- I desperately wanted to *NOT* see it -- may have played a role in my general satisfaction with the film. I agree it's flawed, and I didn't like much of it, but I was expecting a heavy handed liberal polemical, and, while it had brief moments of that bullshit, there was enough cops-n-robbers stuff to keep me happy.

It's much like the pro-gang-bang film "The Contender." They tried to make Gary Oldman odious, but I just kept rooting for him and cheering for him. Here, they tried to show me that the drug war was "futile," but I just ignored that as Eric Communist type ravings, and rooted for the cops to bust the dope dealers.

Hey, in the end, the cops pretty much win, even though both cops' partners are killed by the Bad Guys. Pretty much standard action movie fare, it seems to me.

15360. CalGal - 1/30/2001 4:26:58 AM

That was a spoiler, you know. Here's more, folks, so blitz on by.

Actually, I think the cops "win", but not by fighting the War on Drugs. Del Toro turns in his own and Cheadle is far more likely to nail them on murder than on dealing.

Also, how unbelievable were those dolls, really? Cocaine is certainly water soluble, isn't it? I wasn't wowed by it--it seemed entirely probable to me.

15361. Cellar Door - 1/30/2001 10:12:54 AM

"but I was expecting a heavy handed liberal polemic"

Ace gets to have so little fun at the movies. Them libruulls is everywhere!

"They tried to make Gary Oldman odious, but I just kept rooting for him and cheering for him."

Yep. Can't imagine why Uma Thurman left him and Isabella Rossellini decided not to marry him.

15362. iiibbb - 1/30/2001 11:40:11 AM

Stupid Kids... Stupid Show

What do you do about something like this? The inane stupidity of these kids boggles my mind. The appeal of that show is basically lost on me.

I mean, I guess I did some dome sh*t when I was a kid... but cripes... I new better than to set myself on fire.

15363. Fraaankster - 1/30/2001 12:23:56 PM

iiibbb,

I found it hard to believe when I first saw it on the news yesterday, also.
Are kids so different today today that they wouldn't find, say, Gilligan's Island appealing on some level instead of crap like this ? I guess I just don't get it with today's kids. Let's not excuse the parents in this incident. Where were they while their son was being shish kebobed ?

15364. Raskolnikov - 1/30/2001 3:34:49 PM

Kids have always been dumb shits, but I suspect TV allows more inspiration toward dumb shit creativity.

Dumb shit things I did as a kid: drank lighter fluid (age 2), got stuck in the laundry chute at a friend's house (age 9), regularly ignited aerosol propellant indoors (age 10-13), did an inward flip on a low dive (age 18), called three starting members of the University of Minnesota hockey team "fucking pussies" (age 19). I like to think I wouldn't have lit myself on fire if the idea had occurred to me and friends had dared me, but given the above, I am not so sure.

15365. Fraaankster - 1/30/2001 3:56:57 PM

Rask,

Ha-ha-ha! By the way, should I leave it to my imagination as to what might have followed that hockey team remark ?

... Hmmmmm...A whole new thread in itself.

I did lots of stupid things as a kid, but light myself on fire ? No... No.

I must have been all of eight years old when I and my best friend at the time, a kid next door named Alfonso, decided to make believe we were camping on a vacant lot across the alley from our apartments.
Naturally, one can't pretend they're out camping without the piece de resistance, or the focal point of a campsite -- the campfire.
We spread out some newspapers over dry, very dry, California sagebrush and you can guess the rest -- within seconds the two acre lot lit up like only the driest(sp?) of Christmas trees ever could. Luckily no structures were ever threatened.

... The only thing I remember from that afternoon was the fire chief coaxing me out from under my parent's bed with my "friend" alongside him repeating, "He did it. He did it."

I got a whuppin' that evening needless to say.

There was one bright spot to this. The fire cleared the lot to a point where we could now find our kickballs and softballs a hell of a lot easier. :-)

15366. Raskolnikov - 1/30/2001 4:04:36 PM

"Ha-ha-ha! By the way, should I leave it to my imagination as to what
might have followed that hockey team remark ? "

A lot of running.

15367. Fraaankster - 1/30/2001 4:23:08 PM

LOL! I thought for sure you were the recepient of a couple of lovely black eyes.

By the way, as much as I would love to be verbally abused, beatened and whipped by Cal, I think we're straying a bit from the topic at hand. ;-)

15368. iiibbb - 1/30/2001 4:23:12 PM

This begs the question:

Should MTV (or any network) be held in any way finacially accountable for the actions of children who may be influenced by these programs? Certainly the artical looks like someone is going to sue someone.

I personally believe that MTV should not be held financially responsible.

15369. Fraaankster - 1/30/2001 4:29:17 PM

iiibbb,

I don't care for a lot of the crap kids are exposed to today, but sue MTV over this ? No. If that's the case, why not just sue the match maker or the oil company that provided the gasoline ?

It was apparently a kid with a lot of time on his hands, and parents without the faintest of clues as to what their kids are into.

15370. JudithAtHome - 1/30/2001 8:44:52 PM

Deev, have you and Adrianne been holding out on us?

Sweeps Week

ABC TV to Wake Up Airwaves with Live Childbirth

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The ABC network is adding a new dimension to ``reality'' television with plans for an unprecedented live broadcast of childbirth on ``Good Morning America'' next week, the network announced on Tuesday.

The morning talk show hosted by Charles Gibson and Diane Sawyer has arranged with obstetricians at three hospitals -- in Boston, Dallas and Houston -- to televise any of several births expected on Tuesday, Feb. 6.

Any bets on who goes first?

15371. Fraaankster - 1/30/2001 9:52:42 PM

Judith -- (sigh) Oh Geez, anything goes for sweeps.

...What next, the bowel movements of the new Survivor cast ?

15372. Cellar Door - 1/30/2001 10:00:21 PM

Should MTV be held responsible for Eminem-inspired gay-bashings iiibbb?

(I'll bet we all know the answer to thi one, don't we folks?)

15373. rubberducky - 1/31/2001 9:41:32 AM

Ally McPublic gets another year for those of you who watch the show.

15374. Adrianne - 1/31/2001 9:51:55 AM

Fraaaank

Not for nothing, but if you are ever involved with a woman who gives birth, you might reconsider comparing the birth experience to having a bowel movement.

I'm just saying.

15375. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:50:42 AM

Ad:

I think Frank was commenting more on the fact the networks will trivialize anything for ratings...I'm sure he wasn't implying what you suggest. Frank is not a man to make light of something so serious and profound.

15376. theDiva - 1/31/2001 12:21:48 PM

True, about Frankie.

And as far as giving birth on live TV is concerned...well, geez. I. Think. NOT.

15377. Adrianne - 1/31/2001 12:34:55 PM

Well, um, me neither. But I don't think it's comparable to pooping, either.

Except...heh heh....

well, I won't go into it.

But Diva knows of what I speak.

15378. Adrianne - 1/31/2001 12:36:27 PM

And Judith, pooping is pretty trivial, actually. I don't think televising a bowel movement would trivialize it. Maybe you mean "exploit"?

15379. Jenerator - 1/31/2001 12:43:02 PM

The show "JackAss" on Mtv is the most vile, disgusting, and worthless show I have ever seen. I watched *one* episode to see what the fuss was about and it was definitely worse than I pictured. They had the pranks, the stupid stunts, the guys doing silly things, but the worst part of it was a tie. Either it was when they should one of the men actually getting an enema (complete with "fecal material" passing down the hose in plain view) or the drinking contest which showed two contests continually vomitting on the floor and each other.

I'm not talking about camera shots from a far, I'm talking about close-ups showing chunks and everything.


Mtv will be banned from house, I hate it.

15380. theDiva - 1/31/2001 12:43:18 PM

Ad


'push, honey. PUSH!'

15381. Adrianne - 1/31/2001 12:48:05 PM

(snerk)

Jen, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I am SO. GLAD.

15382. DocBrown - 1/31/2001 12:48:30 PM

Again I am saddened to see that when the thread swings toward television the posts here become negative. This thread has an amazing pro-movie anti-television bias. Of course there is crap on American television! Is anyone really surprised by this? Why waste bandwidth discussing the lousy stuff?

Yet the thread tries to mention the finest motion pictures at least once.

I'll take two hours of Junkyard Wars over Traffic any time. The worst Junkyard Wars are more entertaining, more informative, and all around higher quality than all Michael Douglas' pictures put together.

15383. CalGal - 1/31/2001 12:51:55 PM

Doc,

I love TV. I am not down on it at all. I even tried to watch Junkyard Wars, but every time it says that it's on, something else pre-empts it.

15384. DocBrown - 1/31/2001 12:54:29 PM

Last week, History's Lost and Found did a reasonable job telling the mostly unknown story of Garret Morgan, the African American hero and inventor from Cleveland.

History Channel recently started its series of History vs Hollywood shows. Considering hom many among us got most of our history knowledge from the big and small screens, this seems like a noble undertaking.

15385. DocBrown - 1/31/2001 12:56:25 PM

Cal Gal, Junkyard Wars is now on Mondays at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET/PT and Sundays at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Does that help? It's not opposite West Wing or Drew Carey anymore.

15386. Jenerator - 1/31/2001 1:01:51 PM

Doc,

There's plenty of good television on. I just think that it is amazing that Mtv (and our culture) have sunk so low as to feature shows with graphic vomitting and pooping.

15387. DocBrown - 1/31/2001 1:05:48 PM

Thanks, Jenerator. May I point out that recent movies have given us Adam Sandler encouraging a child to urinate in public and termites crawling through Jim carrey's teeth?

This country's television is not culturally inferior to its motion pictures.

15388. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 1/31/2001 1:06:01 PM

The first time I participated in a delivery I realized why so many mothers refer to their children as "little shits."

15389. DocBrown - 1/31/2001 1:08:58 PM

One of the best TV shows to come out of the late 90s was recently resurrected by Comedy Central.

Sports Night is on tomorrow night. If you don't appreciate it, then either A) you have not given it a chance or B) you prefer Survivor and Jerry Springer.

15390. PsychProf - 1/31/2001 1:34:02 PM

TOP 20 SPORTS MOVIES

click on photo

15391. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 1:41:36 PM

Ad:

And Judith, pooping is pretty trivial, actually. I don't think televising a bowel movement would trivialize it. Maybe you mean "exploit"?

No, I was referring to the fact they were trivializing birth, not poop. It was you who were focused on the poop, not I.

15392. theDiva - 1/31/2001 1:44:05 PM

well, when you got one in diapers and another on the way, poop tends to register LARGE on the radar.

15393. DocBrown - 1/31/2001 1:45:20 PM

Speaking of Sports, Comedy Central is going to show the Battlebots semifinals and finals as one-hour specials on Tuesday nights, starting next week.

Battlebots is one of the best shows on television. It may also be the best made-for-TV sport in the world.

15394. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 1:46:31 PM

I'm sure it does...I don't know that I could manage both...or either, at my age. Diapers and young 'ens are for the younger folk with more stamina!

I read that Beverly D'Angelo just had twins at 46...

15395. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 1:48:27 PM

...with Al Pacino. Her first experience with motherhood, by the way.

15396. Adrianne - 1/31/2001 1:48:50 PM

Judith

Yes, I understand that that's what you meant.

It doesn't, however, make sense in light of your interpretation of Fraaank's bowel movement post. Using the word "exploit" instead of "trivialize" would allow the comparison, and your interpretation of his intent, to make sense. If you use "rivialize" then you are quite definitely comparing the two events (pooping and giving birth) in terms of gravity - or, as I suspect was actually the case, "ick factor".

If you use "exploit", then you are only comparing the two in terms of privacy, not importance or taste.

But then, I'm a pregnant woman who can't poop, so what do I know? :-)

15397. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 1:50:39 PM

Alright, Ad...have it your way. I'm sure you know more about proper word usage. Sorry to have been so confusing.

15398. Fraaankster - 1/31/2001 3:13:23 PM

Adrianne,

Message # 15374

Not for nothing, but if you are ever involved with a woman who gives birth, you might reconsider comparing the birth experience to having a bowel movement.

In no way, shape, or form, was I trying to trivialize or compare the miracle of birth with that of pooping. As Judith and the Deev ( two people in here who seem to know me better than I know myself sometimes ) correctly pointed out, I was simply trying to highlight the lunacy of network executives and their cut throat quest for higher TV ratings, and naturally, underlying it all, that quest for that friggin' almighty buck. My first thought at reading that post was, Isn't anything sacred anymore ?
And yes, if tomorrow I were to find out that some woman I've been seeing was pregnant with my child, I would definitely get involved on every physical, emotional, and financial level possible. I would insist on it, even if I sensed that the prospects were nil for a long term relationship and/or marriage with the woman in question. If a woman is carrying my baby, I will be at her beck and call, and will wait on her hand and foot until that joyous day arrives, and after ( In case PPS sets in [Hee-hee-hee!] ). It goes without saying that my child will always have a father for the rest of his/her life on every conceivable parental level possible that I am aware of. It is my duty as the bank who made this miracle possible.

Continued...

15399. Fraaankster - 1/31/2001 3:14:08 PM

Continued:

...Come to think of it, if I were to meet some terrific woman tomorrow who is no longer involved in a relationship, but had become pregnant by her former beau, I would treat her the same way for the sake of the life she is carrying . It wouldn't be my child, but my responsibilties as someone who claims to love her -- all of her -- as well as my responsibility as an adult human being, obligate me to do so.

I am sorry my post came out as it did. I shoot from the hip most of the time, and with that naturally, come errors as such. I certainly didn't mean to imply that what you, Cart's wife, the Deev, and millions of other women around the world are currently going through is anything like the everyday body function of pooping. Please accept my apologies for the post in question.

15400. seadate - 1/31/2001 3:22:08 PM

Fraank,

It's fitting that you shoot from the hip - very close to where you do your thinking.

15401. Fraaankster - 1/31/2001 3:25:59 PM

Seadate,

LOL! Smart ass!

...If you saw what I see in one day -- ONE DAY -- your thinking would originate from your scrotum region also.





Joke!
Joke!
Joke!

15402. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 3:37:28 PM

So, is anyone else watching Survivor II ?

15403. Fraaankster - 1/31/2001 3:40:37 PM

body = bodily

Proofread, Frank. (sigh)

Judith,

No!

15404. CalGal - 1/31/2001 3:41:55 PM

I am not.

I realized recently that TV series have become so weak that I am watching Judging Amy--and actually enjoying parts of it.

Note to Doc: that isn't a slam on TV, that is a tearful lament about the decline in quality of my favorite shows this year.

NYPD Blue: unwatchable
West Wing: much weaker than last year, although the PTSD Christmas ep and last week's show were pretty good. It's still a decent show.
L&O: variable, but definitely more boring even when it's solid.
The Practice: I quit on that with George the slasher nun.

When is Bull coming back, does anyone know?

15405. DocBrown - 1/31/2001 3:50:00 PM

Cal: if you liked the old West Wing, you would probably enjoy Sports Night. It is a very similar type of show. Many people tuned out during its first season because ABC labled it a sitcom and added a laughtrack. It's like The West Wing with a laughtrack.

The laughtrack was removed in the second season, but the audience had already tuned out. Right now Comedy Central is showing first season episodes, so try to ignore the irritating laugh track.

I agree with your assessment of television, at least as far as the networks go. The good shows are on channels like History, Learning Channel, Discovery, Comedy Central, HBO, etc..

15406. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 3:50:31 PM

Well, Survivor is my Trash TV fix for each week; for a few anyhow.

15407. CalGal - 1/31/2001 3:52:14 PM

Doc,

I watched the entire first year of Sports Night, and loved it. The second season was nearly unwatchable, due to the trashing of the lead female. Sorkin's treatment of women is a sore point with me.

I mainly watch movies on TV, but I like the talking head shows, the good TV shows, and syndication--particularly L&O, Homicide, and NYPD Blue.

15408. glendajean - 1/31/2001 4:18:47 PM

I watched a portion of NYPD Blues last night. The main characters are almost autistic. A telling point -- the only exciting parts are the cutaway shots of NYC with the horns and percussion background music. The NYC they present seems more real to me than say that presented by say, Sex in the City.

ER caught a bit of a second wind and is doing ok. NYPD Blue is dead, dead, dead.

15409. glendajean - 1/31/2001 4:19:27 PM

Yes, I watch Survivor (it's a partner thing. He loves to watch it and I end up doing so as well).

15410. CalGal - 1/31/2001 4:21:15 PM

I haven't been back to ER since I saw the ep where Elizabeth wanted a vacation more than being careful on that guy's back. Heard that Mark Green got cancer. They should kill the show off with him.

The other thing is that there aren't any really good sitcoms, either. They've been dead for even longer than the hour long shows. I can't think when they officially died, but there hasn't been a single comedy on my watch list for at least two years (other than the first season of Sports Night, but that wasn't even really a comedy).

15411. glendajean - 1/31/2001 4:25:44 PM

I still watch Frasier and Friends.

I was bummed about Mark Green and his getting the cancer cure. I thought that was way too easy. But it turned out to be an excellent story. They did a whole episode from the patient's p.o.v. (his included). I don't remember the particulars, but it was very powerful.

And frankly there are some high-tech miracle cures that weren't available just a few years ago. Surely doctors probably get in ahead of the line if they qualify for the surgery.

15412. CalGal - 1/31/2001 4:47:41 PM

I keep forgetting to watch Frasier, and since I haven't heard much about it, it apparently has fallen somewhat as a pop culture icon.

Friends took a serious dive the last two years, which is sad because for a couple years there I think it was truly fine and extremely underrated.

15413. Shannon - 1/31/2001 4:49:12 PM

I forget Frasier too, since they moved it. I figure I'll have something to watch during rerun season.

15414. Cellar Door - 1/31/2001 5:24:24 PM

"Frasier" was quite good last night. Frasier and Niles decide to take an auto repair course at night school -- which they can't hack at all. So on Roz's reccomendation, they decide to "coast" and begin acting like the sort of nasty-snotty school kids they grew up with and hated.

David Hyde Pierce continues to amaze with his line readings.

15415. OhioSTOPAS - 1/31/2001 5:42:41 PM

"Sports Night" was excellent, but it was getting full of itself with a lot of self-indulgent, too-cute, rapid-fire dialogue. I'm glad the show ended before it went downhill.

15416. OhioSTOPAS - 1/31/2001 5:44:44 PM

My favorite comedy right now is "Titus". Stacy Keach is particularly hilarious as the Dad From Hell.

15417. CalGal - 1/31/2001 5:45:57 PM

I like Stacy Keach, haven't even heard of Titus.

15418. CalGal - 1/31/2001 5:48:39 PM

Oh, you know a show I like to listen to when I'm working on something else? Biography. I learn the weirdest things.

For example, Glen Campbell. He was a studio musician who made good, and damned if I didn't know about the Smothers Brothers, Tanya Tucker, the booze, and finding God.

Then it turns out that Tanya Tucker was only 13 when she recorded Delta Dawn. I knew nothing else about Tanya Tucker and in fact, until last night I wouldn't have tagged her as the singer of DD without having a multiple choice quiz question that didn't include Helen Reddy. But 13? Wow.

Then there was that time they showed all the gruesome pictures of Bob Crane.

It's not that the shows are in-depth, but there's always sumpin I didn't know.

15419. OhioSTOPAS - 1/31/2001 6:06:05 PM

"Titus" is on Fox on Tuesday night. ("Titus" is the lead character, Christopher Titus. He's funny, but Keach, as his dad, steals the show.)

15420. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 6:28:24 PM

Keach is priceless in Titus...he is reveling in the part!

15421. Fraaankster - 1/31/2001 7:17:55 PM

Judith,

Ouch! I just reread my post ( 15403 ) and I hope I did not come across as harsh in my response ? I had to leave at the time, so that had to suffice for that moment.
I only saw the original Survivor for only a few minutes, so obviously I didn't give it the chance it deserved. I just didn't see what all the fuss was about, and there was a lot of it.

I enjoyed Stacy Keach as Mike Hammer, and I also enjoy his narration of one or two Nova (?) specials he's done. I've never seen Titus.

Hmmmmmm, the last good sit-com I enjoyed ? Ned and Stacey.

15422. Fraaankster - 1/31/2001 7:21:52 PM

I've got to run, but don't forget, The Fugitive this week at its new time, with a new episode to break this new time slot in. There should be a ton of psychiatric terms thrown about, as he hides out in a psychiatric ward.

Gotta run! ( No pun intended )

15423. arkymalarky - 1/31/2001 8:23:22 PM

"For example, Glen Campbell. He was a studio musician who made good, and damned if I didn't know about the Smothers Brothers, Tanya Tucker, the booze, and finding God."

You know all you have to do is email me. I coulda told you all of that and more! ;-)

15424. concerned - 1/31/2001 8:32:44 PM

Anybody hear that Cher wants to star in a movie about Elizabeth Bathory? Oddly appropriate for somebody from the sinister political party.

15425. CalGal - 1/31/2001 8:33:27 PM

Is he from that area? I always thought he was cute.

In the Biography, one of the talking heads said that his early songs were so popular because they dealt with blue collar white guy angst. That cracked me up.

15426. concerned - 1/31/2001 8:41:09 PM

Re. 15386 -

Look at the bright side. There's no place to go but up, right?

15427. arkymalarky - 1/31/2001 8:45:17 PM

Yeah, he's a local boy done good. He's from this neck of the woods (defining that in a rural state as anything within a 200 mile radius).

15428. arkymalarky - 1/31/2001 8:47:30 PM

Cher's supposed to be a pretty good actress, I thought. I liked her in "Silkwood." Of course we know Republican actors are B all the way. Just look at Charlston Heston and Ronald Reagan.

15429. concerned - 1/31/2001 8:56:12 PM

Hey, Arky -

Think Clowntoon is going to do a reverse 'Reagan' and plop himself into a movie role? Don't see why he would pass any opportunity like that up. It should be a guaranteed hit at the box office.

15430. arkymalarky - 1/31/2001 9:04:45 PM

I wouldn't be surprised at anything. I feel about him in showbiz like FU felt about PJ in Penthouse--you go guy! Of course I hope and think he'll be more of a hit than she was--did you hear about the prisoner who sued because he found her spread a disappointment? Hahahahaha!!!

15431. concerned - 1/31/2001 9:35:10 PM

Speaking of FU, where is he? Without him, it just isn't SNAFU around here.

15432. arkymalarky - 1/31/2001 10:12:55 PM

He's been around, but sort of sporadically.

15433. Autodaffy - 1/31/2001 10:53:31 PM

Doc Brown, you say:
"This country's television is not culturally
inferior to its motion pictures. "

By what standards? I happen to be a tv addict, someone who used his first fifty-cents an hour job to buy his own tv, so that he could watch programs other than those his parents watch. But "creative" and "unique on tv seem to me always to be stunted. Look at the superbowl commercials, which are creative and unique only in the context of television which is otherwise banal from dawn till dark.

I remember listening to a critic on NPR praising Ally McBeal to the stars when it began. Then I watched it and got really depressed that anyone would consider this anything but a slightly humorized version of LA law: lots of current relevance and titillation; not much new.

So by what standards do you manage to elevate the constant trash of television above movies, which are about 95 percent trash and 1 percent sublime?

15434. Adrianne - 2/1/2001 7:28:28 AM

Fraaaank

No worries - I originally posted what I thought was a light-hearted admonition (and no, even bowel movements aren't sacred anymore!) and then got sidetracked into a discussion with Judith about semantics.

Really, ya'll, I'm hormonal but not THAT sensitive.

As for TV - ummm, most of you know of my borderline psychotic hatred of the medium, so I won't comment too much, but I have to say that I saw a snippet of Temptation Island during (I think) the Superbowel and I can't believe that anyone watches that crap. Aside from the utterly wretched premise...those people are so obviously playing to the camera - isn't the attreaction of "reality" tv supposed to be a "spying through the key-hole" thang? No one can seriously buy these people, can they?

I never saw Survivor, but I certainly hope that the participants were, or at least appeared, more genuine than that scene I saw from the island show.

15435. DocBrown - 2/1/2001 9:07:50 AM

Autodaffy said:

So by what standards do you manage to elevate the constant trash of television above movies, which are about 95 percent trash and 1 percent sublime?

If movies are 95% trash and 1% sublime, what about the other 4%? Do you have an opinion?

I could be convinced that around 1% of American movies are worthwhile. But by the same standards I would also say that about 1% of television is worthwhile. For sublime television, the only choice if Junkyard Wars.

By my standards 100% of network television is trash. They no longer give me an hour worth watching. I can get by with Whose Line is it, Anyway? playing in the background while I grade midterms, but even that show cannot command my undivided attention. Besides, it was stolen from the British.

PBS, History Channel, Learning Channel, and a few others present perhaps 10% worthwhile shows. All in all, TV is about equal to movies.

The difference is that it may be fairly easy to walk out on a movie, but a zillion times easier to change change the TV channel or turn of the damn thing.

15436. JudithAtHome - 2/1/2001 9:09:26 AM

Daffy:

So by what standards do you manage to elevate the constant trash of television above movies, which are about 95 percent trash and 1 percent sublime?

If you feel this way about both TV and movies, why not read books then? Or do you feel they are mostly trash, too?

15437. rubberducky - 2/1/2001 9:26:23 AM

to me, the entire worthwhile 'standard' is dumb and so subjective as to be pointless.

it is merely entertainment not something to teach you or anything of the sort. if you learn a fact or two while Biography so much the better, that doesn't make it more 'worthwhile' than Daddio. same for movies. some are more watchable than others. some are worth MY while, and not others. to judge an entire medium, much less be a smart-ass insulter about one's like and/or dislike of same, goes beyond simple stupidity and into the realm of egomania.

15438. Adrianne - 2/1/2001 9:32:40 AM

ducky,

I don't know if you're referring to my dislike of the medium, but I can assure that my hatred of television has nothing to do with egomania. Stupidity, yeah, maybe, dunno. It's a visceral hatred, for me, and probably has something to do with sound frequencies or some childhood issue (shrug). I say that not in jest - something about anything more than a tiny dose of television causes a physical and psychological reaction in me that isn't pleasant.

I cheerfully admit, and always have, that it's my problem, and completely unreasonable.

15439. DocBrown - 2/1/2001 9:43:32 AM

I don't think he meant you, Adrianne, since I am the one who stirred things up with the word worthwhile. Although I don't remember saying anything "smartass," I have been looking for people to explain why the Movies/Television thread is so prejudiced toward motion pictures.

15440. rubberducky - 2/1/2001 9:43:48 AM

Ad:

no, i wasn't referring to anyone in particular, i was referring to the general looking down people do here and in other places on something as harmless and meaningless as TV. and i say this as not a huge fan of TV. i watch an hour or two a night and follow less than 10 shows, but to judge it as 'trash' and such and condescend to people talking about shows they like just gets on my nerves.

as to your specific reaction, well, i think it's pretty understandable. there's not a lot, to me, worth paying attention to.

15441. rubberducky - 2/1/2001 9:44:48 AM

I have been looking for people to explain why the Movies/Television thread is so prejudiced toward motion pictures.

cuz it is fashionable to do so, Doc.

15442. mgleason - 2/1/2001 9:46:24 AM

If anyone who saw NYPD Blue on Tuesday would summarize the action for me, I'd be very appreciative. It's one of only a handful of shows that I watch, and I hate to miss it.

BTW, has anyone been watching Touching Evil on PBS? I love that series; the acting is outstanding, especially that of Robson Green, who plays the lead detective.

15443. mgleason - 2/1/2001 9:49:59 AM

I stopped watching TV with any regularity years ago when it became apparent that even with the most extreme precautions (tinfoil hats), network executives were reading my mind and cancelling any show in which I displayed an interest.

15444. DocBrown - 2/1/2001 9:59:58 AM

rebberducky explained the prejudice toward movies thusly:

cuz it is fashionable to do so, Doc.

Probably why I hardly see any movies anymore. I dress like Dilbert for a night on the town, eat Stouffer's spaghetti for dinner, and drive a 20 year old car. I must stick out like a sore thumb to the fashion police hereabouts.

Did I mention my fondness for awful cliches?

Battlebots quarterfinal action next Tuesday night! My nerd friends and I will be glued to our idiot boxes. We may even make a social occasion out of it.

15445. Adrianne - 2/1/2001 10:06:00 AM

Rock on with your bad self, DocBrown.

15446. rubberducky - 2/1/2001 10:06:00 AM

Re: Message # 15444, DocBrown.

r[u]bberducky explained the prejudice toward movies thusly:

well, not just movies. i think it is also fashionable to slam TV.

basically, it's the old above-it-all mentality. unless, of course, one happens to like a show/movie, then there is magically something redeemable about it.

15447. DocBrown - 2/1/2001 10:09:36 AM

Mgleason said:

even with the most extreme precautions (tinfoil hats), network executives were reading my mind and cancelling any show in which I displayed an interest.

Ahh! So you miss MST3K, too?

15448. mgleason - 2/1/2001 10:12:39 AM

But of course. Funny you should mention that; I'm wearing my 'Bite Me!' t-shirt today.

15449. Francis Urquhart - 2/1/2001 10:18:02 AM

Television is mainly pap, background noise. I don't loathe television, but break it down just in prime-time:

Sitcoms generally suck. That's why they require a laugh track. The exceptions - Frasier, The Norm Show, The Larry David Show - are few and far between, and even they are not so good that you can't wait until syndication. Even the pinnacle of 30 minute comedy - The Simpsons - is showing age.

Television dramas are cookie-cutter insipid, with the exception of The Sopranos (and that is helped by a longer time period due to no commercial interruption), and even good ones become very bad, very quickly, as their success immediately steers the writers into making hallowed angels out of all characters. Moreover, the time constraints make for no characterization or hackneyed characterization. Can anyone really differentiate between Boston School and ER and The Practice and Family Law and Judging Amy and Gideon's Crossing and Chicago Hope and Law and Order II: Victim's Special Unit No. 5 and Once and Again and NYPD Blue?

Television news magazines are the worst sort of information mixed with tragedy mixed with freakshow. Take 44 seconds of the time Tom Brokaw will give to an issue and play it like a loop for your story, about the woman who is psychologically disturbed and can't clean her house; about the spate of suburban kids who are breaking legs and necks in their backyards aping the WWF; about flesh-eating disease; about how George Foreman's fatless grill really has fat as an issue.

The best television has to offer is professional sports, the occasional documentary (something less that a Ken Burns 142 installment sleep-fest) and Fox's When Animals Attack IV.

15450. Francis Urquhart - 2/1/2001 10:25:17 AM

I forgot to add a staple to prime-time - reality TV. A bunch of real people on an island or in a house or running around a city or at a resort - without breast augmentation - yelling at each other.

15451. DocBrown - 2/1/2001 10:30:16 AM

Good for you, mgleason!

Mystery Science Theater 3000 was the perfect example of television giving motion pictures exactly what they deserve.

15452. CalGal - 2/1/2001 10:30:24 AM

Can anyone really differentiate between Boston School and ER and The Practice and Family Law and Judging Amy and Gideon's Crossing and Chicago Hope and Law and Order II: Victim's Special Unit No. 5 and Once and Again and NYPD Blue?


Sure. It's no different from someone like you reviewing mid-level or worse schlock like Lock...Barrels, whatever movie Ryan Phillipe just made, Way of the Gun, and Shaft. Good lord, how can you differentiate? They're all pretty much junk.

Mind you, I agree that it is mostly pap. I just don't see that your dismissal of TV shows (all except the Sopranos, of course) is any indication. There is good TV, okay TV, mediocre TV, and TV that periodically rises to the occasion nicely.

The best television has to offer is professional sports, the occasional documentary (something less that a Ken Burns 142 installment sleep-fest) and Fox's When Animals Attack IV.


Oh, yes. Pro sports are the reason for TV.

I would say instead that the best of TV is watched by far more than the best of movies and that that fact probably is one of the best things about it.

15453. Francis Urquhart - 2/1/2001 10:37:20 AM

Actually, Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, The Way of the Gun, and even Shaft were better than any of the 15 minutes (to a whole show, if I could make it) I've seen of The Practice and Family Law and Judging Amy and Gideon's Crossing and Chicago Hope and Law and Order II: Victim's Special Unit No. 5 and Once and Again and NYPD Blue.

But tastes vary.

15454. rubberducky - 2/1/2001 10:43:12 AM

Re: Message # 15453, Francis Urquhart.

ditto

15455. DocBrown - 2/1/2001 11:07:20 AM

Where are TVs Misfits and Screwballs?

Starting in the late 60s and running through the 80s, television gave us a very peculiar picture of the efforts of government to work on our behalf. Between the military, police force, and even the court system, the only people who got anything done were the misfits and screwballs.

This era gave us M*A*S*H, Black Sheep Squadron, The A Team, The Mod Squad, Night Court, and The Dukes of Hazzard. Even Hill Street Blues was populated by a bunch of cops who were (at best) borderline unprofessional. The "by the book" military and police officers were portrayed as buffoons.

Contrast this to the 90s, when the TV heroes who work for the government became starkly professional. Overnight the military got straight-as-an-arrow shows like JAG. The police and court system got shows like Law and Order, in which following the rules is very important and minor infractions lead to disaster.

Screwballs were once the staple of American television. Where did they all go?

Did this culture change to reject having Hawkeye Pierce and Harry Stone stand up for American values?

Or did Hollywood decide that government was okay during the Clinton administration?

Might the election of George W. Bush mean that Hollywood will slowly go back to portraying military and police officers as buffoons?

15456. Raskolnikov - 2/1/2001 11:11:56 AM

Yeah, there is a lot of junk in both media, but I would argue that the best movies are far better than the best stuff produced for television. The exceptions are generally TV comedies, as we are blessed if we get even 2-3 movies a year that can even be called "funny".

15457. CalGal - 2/1/2001 11:14:50 AM

Francis,

I shall try and be clearer: there are varying levels of quality in both movies and TV. Given what TV series have to come up with--22 to 25 hours of entertainment a year--I would say they have the tougher job. Most movies are crap, and they only have to come up with two hours.

If I understand your point it is: Most TV is crap, but thank god for pro sports and documentaries that don't exceed my attention span. Abstracted out to something meaningful, your point is nothing more than: Most TV is crap, but it has some offerings that I value and enjoy.

I think we can agree that this is the case for every TV watcher in the US.

Substitute "movies" for "TV" and lo! you still have a statement that holds true for every movie attendee on the planet.

In fact, you could substitute any art form for "TV" and prove only that Theodore Sturgeon spoke truth.

15458. Francis Urquhart - 2/1/2001 11:18:37 AM

Cal

I suppose you could do all that, but I can't imagine why.

Doc

I respect your public pining for the Duke of Hazzard. I think it still runs on the Line Dancing Channel.

Rask

Agreed, but the "funny" of sitcoms is generally built on a "funny" character, who is much funnier in 22 minute doses.

15459. Raskolnikov - 2/1/2001 11:24:26 AM

"Agreed, but the "funny" of sitcoms is generally built on a "funny"
character, who is much funnier in 22 minute doses."

Yes. That is the problem most movie comedies run into - a half hour comedic premise stretched to two hours. I watched the recent Grinch movie, which only served to remind me of the genius of Chuck Jones' 22 minute adaptation.

15460. CalGal - 2/1/2001 11:27:42 AM

TV programs are nothing more than content around which to hang advertising. (In fact, the home shopping networks have proven that you don't actually need content--just advertising.) Advertising is the reason that television exists, not the other way around.

This makes television an entirely different animal from movies. The fact that they are both filmed causes us to compare them, but in fact movies are more analogous to video games and CDs, when it comes to their funding, whereas TV is more akin to magazines and newspapers.

Does this matter when discussing quality? Sure. I would never disagree that the best of movies far exceeds the best of TV. But the movies outdo TV on the other side as well--the business of TV dictates that its worst is far superior to the worst of movies.

What is more interesting, to me, is what TV does provide and that it manages to provide it under far more difficult circumstances than movies.

15461. CalGal - 2/1/2001 11:29:53 AM

I suppose you could do all that, but I can't imagine why.


Because it means that you've said nothing that isn't true about every other art form, so why would you think that it has some particular application to TV?

15462. Cellar Door - 2/1/2001 11:38:15 AM

After "Mr. Adams and Eve" television went to Hell.

15463. Shannon - 2/1/2001 11:38:30 AM

better than any of the 15 minutes (to a whole show, if I could make it) I've seen of The Practice and Family Law and Judging Amy and Gideon's Crossing and Chicago Hope and Law and Order II: Victim's Special Unit No. 5 and Once and Again and NYPD Blue.

Man, for someone who thinks TV is a vast wasteland, you sure have seen a lot of shows. I watch entire programs when they interest me (the list currently includes about 5 prime-time programs), which doesn't strike me as nearly as unpleasant and time-consuming as making it my personal mission to watch 15 minutes of every damn show out there so that I can claim to have an informed opinion of how bad they are. If I spent that much time watching shows that I disliked, I'd probably develop a deep loathing of TV too.

15464. Francis Urquhart - 2/1/2001 11:43:38 AM

Shannon

It is a fair charge. I amuse myself by watching the same scenes over and over again in 5 minute stretches. I try and stop myself, but it is like a car accident. I can't look away as yet another TV doctor says "He's a helluva surgeon, but he's got ice in his veins" or another TV lawyer states "This is justice? THIS IS JUSTICE!?"

15465. rubberducky - 2/1/2001 11:50:18 AM

well?

is it?

15466. Francis Urquhart - 2/1/2001 11:51:56 AM

"It is a disgrace, and this panel has denied justice to a man it knows is innocent . . . for politics. How does that make us . . . how does that make me .. . different than any mob?"

15467. CalGal - 2/1/2001 11:54:26 AM

I can only assume that Francis has been watching Al Pacino movies and confusing them for Burke's Law reruns.

15468. JudithAtHome - 2/1/2001 12:44:34 PM

but I would argue that the best movies are far better than the best stuff produced for television.

Well, DUH...the best movies usually have millions of dollars spent on them and take over a year to make...whereas TV is churned out in months and with one tenth the budget, usually.

That's like saying "the biggest diamonds are prettier than the biggest rhinestones."

15469. Raskolnikov - 2/1/2001 12:52:02 PM

"Well, DUH...the best movies usually have millions of dollars spent on
them and take over a year to make...whereas TV is churned out in
months and with one tenth the budget, usually. "

The best movies often cost roughly the same as the best TV shows.

I agree with your overall point, but the debate seemed to be about *whether* movies were superior to TV, not *why*.

15470. janjon - 2/1/2001 12:52:48 PM

Speaking of movies, has anyone else seen Before Night Falls?

An interesting mess, be it. Woefully artsy in some ways (lingering ground level shots upward of trees swaying here and there, etc.). Almost incoherent in terms of much of the plot line (important characters drift in and out with not enough rationale or the ability to figure them all out.)

And, getting to the heart of it, I don't really think that the movie does sufficient justice to what seemingly is its central theme - growing up as and being hounded/persecuted for being a homosexual in the Castro era immediately after the overthrow of Battista and for the decade or so thereafter. Somehow, it could have been much more harrowing, I believe.

Having said that, the color and filmatography generally is quite beautiful and some (but hardly all) of the acting was quite good. Especially Johnny Depp who plays two "cameo" roles - a beautiful Queen in Prison and a sadistic (probably complex) army officer.

I recommend waiting for video.

15471. Fraaankster - 2/1/2001 12:57:06 PM

Probably why I hardly see any movies anymore. I dress like Dilbert for a night on the town, eat Stouffer's spaghetti for dinner, and drive a 20 year old car. I must stick out like a sore thumb to the fashion police hereabouts.

(swoon) My hero. ;-)

15472. JudithAtHome - 2/1/2001 1:00:25 PM

The best movies often cost roughly the same as the best TV shows

I disagree with this...but as you say, it's a moot point in the argument of "whether".

15473. Francis Urquhart - 2/1/2001 1:47:40 PM

janjon

Thanks. Before Night Falls was on my list in preparation for the Oscars. Now, i can shelve it.

I still have to see

Tigerland
Best in Show
Quills
Wonderboys
Two Family House
O Brother
The House of Mirth

15474. DocBrown - 2/1/2001 2:20:31 PM

Cal said:

This makes television an entirely different animal from movies. The fact that they are both filmed causes us to compare them, . . .

Actually, this whole comparison thing started because The Mote forces Movies and Television to share the same thread.

15475. DocBrown - 2/1/2001 2:37:04 PM

Francis Urquhart Message # 15458, apparently you have no appreciation for a pithy and well-reasoned essay. Next time I promise to write down to your ultra-violent, movie-loving level.

15476. JudithAtHome - 2/1/2001 2:39:14 PM

Face it, Doc...they don't know what they're missing.

15477. CalGal - 2/1/2001 4:59:46 PM

Doc,

Would you like to host a TV thread? I have no problem with splitting them up.

15478. Cellar Door - 2/1/2001 6:08:44 PM

"Wonder Boys" and "The House of Mirth" are required viewing.

15479. Autodaffy - 2/1/2001 10:19:16 PM

Judith (who in her last encounter said she would steer clear of me because I pointed out that she asked a question of me but failed to answer the same question when it was posed to her):
"If you feel this way about both TV and movies, why not read books then? Or do you feel they are mostly trash, too?"

TV is there in your home for free. So, I like millions of others watch more of it than they should. Movies require more effort, so I go to very few, especially lately because I have a toddler, and can be rented with less effort than attending a a screening requires. I do read books and have all my life. Most, particularly due to the explosion in the number of books published each year, are trash, but you don't have much trouble finding the good ones, since their reviewers in good publications don't feel the need to lie about quality the way the NPR reviewer of Ally did. I think most people look for some variety in media and don't want to read books to the exculsion of watching movies and tv.

15480. Autodaffy - 2/1/2001 10:45:28 PM

Docbrown asks: If movies are 95% trash and 1% sublime,
what about the other 4%? Do you have an
opinion?

Yes, but there's nothing odd about it: the others are somewhere between sublime and trash. I don't mind watching them.

I don't think we differ very much, but you earlier stated that tv was as good as movies, which I disagree with. (Now you say that network tv is 100% trash.) Even PBS and those other channels are huge disappointments, especially public funded PBS, because it seems to think quality is defined by being a British import like the series that MGleason cites. The best thing about PBS or NPR are their news programs, although as a non liberal I have to wade through the crapola to find out what happened.

But television today produces nothing to compare with the great movies, and it never has.

15481. JudithAtHome - 2/2/2001 8:27:36 AM

Daffy:

I responded to you here because, even though our political views may differ, many of us can be civil to one another in other threads.

I was interested in your response and thank you for it...I agree that it might be easier to find a book one likes than to find a TV program or movie one likes. I am not a fan of Ally McBeal but I heard David Biancullis NPR review of same when it first came out and have to say he was more right than wrong at that time but the show quickly went downhill. He wouldn't give that same review today nor even after the first two months of the first year. And he did qualify his remarks with the caveat "if the writing holds up"....

And I might add, it isn't only liberals who produce crap. That's a field open to any and all.

15482. glendajean - 2/2/2001 9:25:28 AM

ER was excellent last night. Very powerful editing, particular in one scene where Kerry, the head ER doc, is walking slowly and the rest of the ER is moving at a hundred miles an hour. Another great scene where they had tried to save a woman, and then moments later, Kerry is in the room with the now dead woman's body and the floor is covered in discarded medical clothing and complete silence. Reminded me of Thomas Lynch's line that the dead don't care.

15483. DocBrown - 2/2/2001 9:34:40 AM

Autodaffy says:

But television today produces nothing to compare with the great movies, and it never has.

Here I have to (sort of) disagree. While I suppose that sometime in the last century Hollywood might have made 2-3 "great movies" which are worth watching, there is no proof that it will ever produce another one. With a sporadic output of maybe one good movie every two decades, America's movie industry stinks.

The most worthwhile hour I have spent in the last few years was a locally produced PBS show about the history of shopping in downtown Cleveland. It was wonderful.

Also during the last few years, I saw The Godfather. What a huge waste of my time. It was a crummy load of violence riddled, potty mouthed, human emotion and drama. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Oh yes, and everyone who thinks they can tell a good movie when they see it is an elitist snob who is kidding themselves.

15484. rubberducky - 2/2/2001 9:44:53 AM

I have a toddler, and can be rented with less effort than attending a a screening requires.

see - this is the only reason i'd reproduce. think of the cash to be made!

15485. DocBrown - 2/2/2001 9:50:27 AM

CalGal,

Thanks for the offer of a TV thread, but I must pass. I am not qualified for that position. These days I manage to catch Battlebots, Junkyard Wars, and My Classic Car about 50% of the time. My wife watches Sports Night, which I get to see about 10% of the time. Last year I saw Who Wants to be a Millionairre, Law and Order, Ally McBeal, and JAG at least once, but I don't plan to go back to them.

I have never seen Survivor, ER, The Practice, Judging Amy, Gideon's Crossing, or any of the other "watercooler" shows. Amongst the Engineering faculty, the only shows we discuss are Battlebots and Junkyard Wars. I could host a thread about those shows, or about My Classic Car, but I doubt it would last.

I would be well qualified to host a thread about shows from my childhood, like those mentioned above plus Speed Racer and The Six Million Dollar Man, but those are hardly worthy of a thread.

15486. JudithAtHome - 2/2/2001 9:52:26 AM

Especially if you make illegal copies of it and sell them!

15487. wonkers2 - 2/2/2001 9:53:35 AM

The best TV talent goes into producing the commercials.

15488. JudithAtHome - 2/2/2001 9:53:41 AM

...mine was to Ducks, by the way.

15489. JudithAtHome - 2/2/2001 9:54:54 AM

The best TV talent goes into producing the commercials.

Total BS...how much TV do you watch, anyhow?

15490. rubberducky - 2/2/2001 9:55:27 AM

toycheck

15491. JudithAtHome - 2/2/2001 9:55:58 AM

Sorry!

My mistake...

15492. glendajean - 2/2/2001 11:14:39 AM

In addition to an excellent ER program last night, the Saturday Night Live segment was also quite funny.

15493. rubberducky - 2/2/2001 11:17:40 AM

i forgot to mention it, GJ

the first bit with Clinton interrupting Bush was very good

15494. CalGal - 2/2/2001 12:14:42 PM

Doc,

Of course you are qualified. Don't be silly. Why don't you suggest it?

15495. Autodaffy - 2/2/2001 12:32:24 PM

DocBrown says: "Oh yes, and everyone who thinks they can
tell a good movie when they see it is an elitist snob who is kidding themselves. "

Which is precisely why I asked you by what standards you can say that tv is as good as movies. Allow me to point out that you praise a number of shows in this thread, but I get no sense that your judgements are any more reasoned than those of the "elitist snobs" you so want to blame for the low opinion widely held of tv.

Blaming elitist snobs or saying that it is fashionable to disparage tv may taint the critics and satisfy you, but neither tact addresses the issue of whether tv IS as good as the movies. Elitist (I suspect your definition of elitist is someone who does not like television) snobs may favor the movies and it may be fashonable to put down tv (it is, in my opinion) AND tv can still be inferior.

I'll offer the beginnings of a standard for declaring tv to be inferior: its chief characteristic is repetition (themes, plots, etc.) because its target audience includes people who are happy to simply be entertained by what they are already familiar with. Action movies attract similar audiences by offering familiar characters, plots, etc., but action movies are less repetitve than tv and do not define all movies the way repetition defines almost all tv, including what is presented on PBS.

I do agree that the advertising motive is at the heart of why this is so. Advertisers want guaranteed audiences with characteristics that can also be guaranteed (age, earnings, etc.).

One can watch a lot of tv without needing to lie to oneself about th what is being watched.

15496. Autodaffy - 2/2/2001 12:45:21 PM

Raskolnikov writes: "The exceptions are generally TV comedies, as we are blessed if we get even 2-3 movies a year that can even be called
'funny'."

The thing that drives me crazy about the comedies on tv is the laugh track, which is like a loud announcement every few seconds to the effect that this stuff is funny whether or not I feel like laughing.
It's like the political spinners who come on after the candidates debate to tell us their guy won, except the laugh track is there to tell you this is funny even though you sense it is dull and unfunny. Do you know of a comedy on tv that does not have a laugh track? Has there been a movie with one? Now here is a peculiar distinction between movies and tv.

I'll take Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles or High Anxiety over the best of any comedy I've seen on tv over the last twenty years.

15497. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 1:11:50 PM

"Frank's Place," "Northern Exposure," "The Days and Nights of Molly Dodd," and "Sex and the City" come to mind as comedy shows without laugh tracks.

15498. Autodaffy - 2/2/2001 1:30:49 PM

Thanks, Cellar. Would you say that laugh tracks are the rule or the exception on tv comedies, and are all of these pure, laugh-a-minute comedies of the Friends and Frazier sort or are any of them hybrids?

15499. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 1:35:02 PM

They're hybrids to some degree in that they vary from laugh-a-minute situations to more nuanced ones to occasional bouts of pure seriousness. But they're also made as films rather than as plays-performed-before-an-audience like standard sitcoms.

15500. CalGal - 2/2/2001 1:35:13 PM

There is a difference between a laugh track and a studio audience. Frasier doesn't have a laugh track. Most shows these days don't--I believe Sports Night was criticized for that.

15501. glendajean - 2/2/2001 1:35:46 PM

I think Young Frankenstein" is better than High Anxiety, but regardless, you're reaching back 30 years. Rask is right in that there hasn't been many great comedies at the movies lately.

It's a silly argument (tv vrs. movies). A couple of people probably had the same argument about books vrs. movies in the 40s.

There have been moments on Frasier, that stack up pretty well with most movie comedies being churned out these days as star vehicles for Freddie Prinze, Jr. (and ilk).

A television play is put together in two weeks or less. By its very confined nature it is less than a movie. But there have been great television programs that in their own way provided interest and entertainment in ways that a movie never could.

The best tv dramas, imo, allow their character's to accumulate history. When we respond to them, we have insight into their characters that have come from following them over time. The same can be said about television comedies, too, I suppose.

The great ones also allow their characters to change, to suffer, to have long-term reactions to events. But they have to do that without becoming, like roles in day-time soaps, a caricature.

15502. glendajean - 2/2/2001 1:36:33 PM

toys

15503. CalGal - 2/2/2001 1:36:40 PM

check

15504. glendajean - 2/2/2001 1:37:38 PM

mate

15505. CalGal - 2/2/2001 1:40:26 PM

hahahaha.

I agree, btw, that the best of TV is when it uses the "soap opera" standard (continuing characters you get to know and care about) to good dramatic effect: Homicide in particular did this better than any show I can think of. But all good hour long TV shows have used this in ways that movies can't emulate.

That's not always good, of course. But it is something that TV brings to the table in a way that movies usually can't.

Rask and I went through the comedies by decade, I'll see if I can find that.

15506. DocBrown - 2/2/2001 1:50:33 PM

M*A*S*H had no laugh track in certain episodes.

The network added a laugh track to Sports Night in the first season. They dropped it in the second season.

15507. glendajean - 2/2/2001 1:51:43 PM

Will and Grace is filmed before a live audience. But I think that they augment it with laugh track. And they don't need to do so.

15508. DocBrown - 2/2/2001 1:54:23 PM

Autodaffy,

Did you even read my post before you responded?

In the past ten years there have been maybe 3 hours worth of good movies and 12 hours worth of good television made in all of America.

My definition of elitist is anyone who believes in their own good taste.

15509. DocBrown - 2/2/2001 1:55:37 PM

Whose Line is it Anyway? is definitely filmed before a live audience. It is funnier than most sitcoms, but it is still not worth watching.

15510. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 2:06:13 PM

I missed "Will & Grace" last night because I went to the premiere of the Showtime "Bojangles" movie with Gregory Hines as Bill Robinson and Kimberly Elise as his second wife. Not bad as these things go, with great attention to detail re the dancing. The event was stolen by Fayard Nicholas. He's still as frisky as ever, and showed off dance moves in the lobby of the DGA theater before the phtotographers' amazed eyes.

They were even more amazed when I told them that he has TWO artificial hips.

15511. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 2/2/2001 2:11:51 PM

Ask Dr. Coltrane: Movies or TV?

The good doctor sez:

Movies.

15512. Uzmakk - 2/2/2001 2:14:35 PM

Where is "Dr. Coltrane's Opus."

15513. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 2/2/2001 2:16:30 PM

Patience, my good man. I shall deliver the goods shortly.

15514. JudithAtHome - 2/2/2001 2:16:43 PM

Cellar:

Who plays the dimpled demon from hell, Shirley Temple?

15515. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 2:18:53 PM

Shirley was played by Lea Marie Golde. The film shows Robinson being really nice to her-- and being an S.O.B. to nearly everybody else. It's rather a sugar-coating of his real self, to a degree. But I was expecting a total whitewash, which it isn't.

15516. CalGal - 2/2/2001 2:42:57 PM

Laugh tracks are pretty rare these days, and MASH was often criticized back then for its use of it. Most of the best comedies of the 70s had studio audiences--Carol Burnett, MTM, WKRP, and so on.

15517. Autodaffy - 2/2/2001 3:58:43 PM

DocBrown: "My definition of elitist is anyone who
believes in their own good taste."

Then I think you've defined most of the world, including yourself, as elitist. Keep telling us of all those wonderful tv shows without demonstrating the slightest tendency to question your own opinions.

15518. Autodaffy - 2/2/2001 4:13:40 PM

I don't get the distinction of studio audience/laugh track. The studio audience is used as a laugh track (and loudly, and I suspect with enhancement when needed). It functions as a laugh track. How often do we sense from its reaction that a line was a bomb or that someone hissed? A studio audience might help in the filming in that bombs they designate will be worked on or eliminated before the show runs, I guess.

No one wants to argue with or refine my thesis about repetition and tv?

15519. AceofSpades - 2/2/2001 4:17:00 PM

Survivor II beat Friends/SNL last night, fairly handily.

I must say: The show is stronger this time around, at least at this point. They've selected some really odious personalities.

The current Darth Vader is Jerri, who lies like a rug. Deb lied like a rug too, but she was an idiot about it, whereas Jerri spins plausible lies ("Kel has beef jerky... he's hoarding food and keeping it from us... Kel told me he was going to vote against you").

Evil, wicked, venomous, vicious woman. And she makes for great TV.

15520. CalGal - 2/2/2001 4:30:45 PM

I don't get the distinction of studio audience/laugh track.

One is a live audience, one is a volume knob.

15521. CalGal - 2/2/2001 4:31:57 PM

Oh, I disagree that anything about your repetition theory is unique to TV.

15522. AceofSpades - 2/2/2001 4:38:12 PM

"I don't get the distinction of studio audience/laugh track."

I am sure that Seinfeld had genuine laughs. But I don't understand how a studio audience -- even filled with starved-for-entertainment Midwestern tourist boobs -- laughs at the likes of Hope & Grace, Will & Grace, King of Queens, etc.

I strongly suspect that Autodaffy is quite right with respect to 90% of "studio audiences." It is simply not possible that any actual human beings laugh at these abortions. The shows might be filmed before a studio audience, but the laughs are certainly sweetened, and the tiny chuckles from a half-dozen takes are combined into a single booming laugh.

Witness Saturday Night Live. A lot of SNL's skits suck, and when they suck, the audience is well-nigh silent. But SNL's worst skits are the equal of most prime time "comedies." And yet, while SNL's lame material garners the Sounds of Silence, "Victoria's Closet" gets booming laughs out of the most obvious, cliched, contrived "jokes" ever written.

15523. AceofSpades - 2/2/2001 4:44:26 PM

And Cal:

You are certainly being naive to think there is a black/white difference between a "laugh track" (more accurately called "canned laughter") and a studio audience's laugh track.

Go check out Annie Hall again-- the scene where Tony Roberts adds laughs to the studio audience laugh track. "Because the jokes aren't funny," Alvy Singer notes.

The most inept comedies on television have the same full-throated laughter as Seinfeld. "DAG" gets huge laughs, for example.

This is not possible, unless DAG's audience is made up of retards on giggle-gas.

Or if DAG is actually "sweetening" the audience response.

15524. CalGal - 2/2/2001 4:44:28 PM

I don't disagree that many live audiences are laughing on demand. But they are still far different from a laugh track. Besides, the explosion of genuine laughter when something truly funny has occurred really adds a lot to the experience.

I think that I could identify the audience reaction to certain classic scenes, or at least make a good guess.

15525. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 4:46:14 PM

Microphones are strategically hung at intervals over the audience to catch laughs. These are then electronically "sweetened." This is diffeent from the old days when most shows had no audiences at all and the laugh track was completely synthetic.

15526. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 4:47:29 PM

There's a difference too between a variety show like Carol Burnett, which always acknowleges the presence of a studio audience, and a sitcom where the audience is heard but never seen.

15527. CalGal - 2/2/2001 4:47:42 PM

Ace,

Come now. You know perfectly well the difference between a laughtrack and a studio audience--even a doctored studio audience. Sports Night had a laugh track, which was generally considered the weakest thing about it.

If someone wanted to take a whole bunch of different laughs and construct a studio audience reaction out of it, I suspect they could do so in a way that would be equivalent to a studio audience--and that would be completely different from a laughtrack, too.

15528. CalGal - 2/2/2001 4:49:35 PM

Cellar,

On Frasier, some of the best moments (usually with superb physical comedy) are clearly played to the audience as well as to the camera. Ditto Spin City at its best. This is quite different from, say, Home Improvement or Roseanne.

15529. AceofSpades - 2/2/2001 4:49:39 PM

"...still far different from a laugh track..."

No, not different at all.

First of all, we haven't seen genuine Canned Laughter in twenty years. The audience has become too sophisticated for that. Jeanie, Brady Bunch, Gilligan's Island all featured the same pre-recorded laughter-- if you watched the shows a lot (which I did, unfortunately, as a kid), you could identify the twenty or so laugh-cuts. They were exactly alike.

Nowadays, studios don't simply recycle the same laugh sound effects, just as they no longer recycle the exact same stock "GUNSHOT" sound effect or "GUNSHOT RICCOCHET" sound effect.

The laughs on DAG are *real.* The only question is: Are the laughs actually from DAG, or borrowed from last week's Frasier?

Almost certainly the laughs are taken from another show's laugh-track. Because -- and I say this with 100% confidence -- DAG ain't killin' the audience like that.

15530. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 4:50:06 PM

The only sitcom-type show that acknowleged an audience was "Tracey Ullman." But then that was more of a variety show that had a sitcom-type segment or two.

On a regular sitcom the only time an audience was acknowleged was on the very last episode of "Mary Tyler Moore" when the entire cast came
out and took a bow as the credits rolled. This (incredibly moving)piece of footage was shown once and once only.

15531. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 4:52:28 PM

Re "Dag," shows have been known to hire professional "laughers" to sit in the audience -- people who'll giggle at anything, even shows as lame as "Dag."

15532. CalGal - 2/2/2001 4:53:27 PM

Ace,

Sports Night had a laugh track. Some other show has, too.

But in any event, "laugh track" has a clear meaning and there is a real distinction between a show that is filmed in front of a live audience (whether their laughs are doctored or no) and one that is filmed without an audience.

If you all wish to complain that studio laughs aren't genuine--either because the audience laughs on demand or because a technician builds it--fine by me. That's not the same thing, though.

There is a real value to good comedies having a studio audience. This has always been true. Bad comedies are bad whether or not their audience reaction is doctored.

15533. janjon - 2/2/2001 4:54:19 PM

"Dag" is the name of our local grocery. As in "Dagastino".

Is it featured on some tv show?

15534. AceofSpades - 2/2/2001 4:54:53 PM

Cellar,

But I thought professional laughers were just there to start laughing, because laughing is contagious. (That's probably the whole reason for the laugh track.)

But DAG's professional laughers could never in a million years induce anyone else to laugh. Laughter is contagious, yes, but don't you need something marginally funny to laugh at? Professional laughers are the match set to the gasoline, but many shows have no gasoline whatsoever.

I don't doubt that DAG hires pro laughers, and a lot of them. But it could not generate laughs unless the studio was made up completely of professional laughers.

15535. AceofSpades - 2/2/2001 5:01:07 PM

Cal,

There is a difference between a studio response and canned laughter.

But not as much as a difference as you seem to suggest.

I could use the same "GUNSHOT" effect in every show... or I could record different "GUNSHOTS" for each shot.

Canned laughter uses the same synthetic sounding laughs for every gag.

Studio audience laugh tracks record different laughs for different jokes.

But most studio audience laugh tracks are just as artificial as the old Gilligan's Island canned laughter. They are electronically sweetened, electronically dupicated, electronically amplified. Laughs from multiple takes are combined in single reel. And when the going gets tough, laughs from *entirely different shows* are simply isolated and laid on the laugh track.

More sophisticated, yes. More difficult to detect by ear, yes. But just as artificial and false.

15536. AceofSpades - 2/2/2001 5:06:08 PM

Cal,

BTW, I'm not sure that "laugh track" means what you say it means.

Even in a studio-audience show, I'm going to have a reel of isolated audience laughter... which of course I will call the "laugh track."

I think "canned laughter" says it better, with no ambiguity. "Canned laughter" is a laugh track, yes, but so is the isolated studio response from Seinfeld. But we're not talking about Seinfeld when we talk about "canned laughter" or, to use your term, a "laugh track."

15537. Cellar Door - 2/2/2001 5:19:45 PM

Well any audience laugh track is artificial from the get-go. But there's an enormous difference between the laugh track of an old Abbott and Costello or "My Little Margie" and the laughs on "Seinfeld."

When laughs of of different caliber and related to something concrete they're acceptable, IMO. When they're wildly out of proportion to what "joke" is on view , then that's another story.

You also should remember that the audience "Dag" is aimed at (it stars Delta Burke for crying out loud) isn't anywhere near as sophisticated as you, dear.

15538. Autodaffy - 2/2/2001 5:37:18 PM

mgleason,
I watch my NYPD Blue on FX, where you can see multiple episodes each week, and skip the new episodes, which come on too late for my household. Sipowitz (sp) is one of the more interesting characters I have found on tv. He carries a load of faults (racist, alchoholic) and qualities (intuition, innately good).

I also saw the BBC detective series last Tuesday and caught a few episodes a year or two ago. Lots of gloomy lighting here, like in the US series set in Washington State with a female lead about three years ago. Needs something more than a gloomy mood, I think, as did the US series.

Both this one and NYPD Blue cause me to yearn for something other than the police procedural genre. I would like to see one in which all the potential criminals and the clues were laid out at the beginning of the show, as in older crime novels. This following the cops as they discover clues and suspects for fifty minutes has no suspense or intellectual challenge in it.

By the way, I predict that on the last episode of NYPD Blue, every member of Andy's family not already gunned down will be gunned down, even distant relatives in distant states.

15539. CalGal - 2/2/2001 6:00:00 PM

I can't even watch NYPD Blue anymore.

15540. Autodaffy - 2/2/2001 9:41:53 PM

Thank you for sharing.

15541. CalGal - 2/2/2001 10:18:39 PM

Oh, I thought you were saying that you didn't like the new episodes either. I love NYPD Blue and quite often watch it on FX. But the show has become unwatchable in the past year.

15542. mgleason - 2/2/2001 10:46:13 PM

Autodaffy,

Your post strikes a chord with me. I, too, prefer the old-fashioned approach to mysteries that you describe, but also have a fondness for police procedurals and psychological thrillers, which fill the void to a certain extent.

Dave Creegan, the lead detective in Touching Evil is the kind of character who can provide a different kind of hook into a police thriller, but I agree with you, the gloomy atmosphere is a detriment. It's a facile way to create a mood, and cheapens the whole. I'm still intrigued enough by Creegan to watch, however.

I also agree about Blue's eventual end.

15543. AceofSpades - 2/2/2001 11:05:46 PM

What we need is "Columbo Jr."

15544. Cellar Door - 2/3/2001 12:12:35 AM

Perfect for Seth Green!

15545. CalGal - 2/3/2001 12:16:27 AM

My lord, you're right. Great call.

15546. AceofSpades - 2/3/2001 12:29:11 AM

I don't see it. Not to say Seth Green isn't a good actor, but he 1) is too young. By Columbo Jr., I mean an adult, but not elderly, young Columbo. Personally, I'm not ready to suspend disbelief regarding a 20 year old homicide detective.

And 2), doesn't seem to have any "Falkiness" about him.

15547. CalGal - 2/3/2001 1:26:04 AM

Oh, I thought you meant Columbo, Jr. and I could see Green doing a good imitation as the young son.

If instead you mean Columbo Redux then I agree, he's all wrong.

15548. AceofSpades - 2/3/2001 2:16:57 AM

I don't know what you mean.

I mean Columbo's son. Or one of those famous nephews he was always talking about.

But I've never seen Green do anything that reminded me of Falk.

15549. ButterfieldSwire - 2/3/2001 7:14:38 AM

You should try Guess The Sitcom Character. You choose a sitcom character. The computer asks you a set of yes or no questions and then guesses which character you chose.

15550. ButterfieldSwire - 2/3/2001 8:00:42 AM

The damn thing guessed Lumpy Rutherford, Uncle Charlie, and Sonny the piano player from Its a Living. But I finally stumped it on Nick Yamana.

15551. Indiana Jones - 2/3/2001 10:57:23 AM

It guessed Barney (easy IMO), but not Floyd the barber.

15552. Indiana Jones - 2/3/2001 10:58:07 AM

(Though I don't know whether Floyd was left-handed or not, so I may have given it a bad answer on that question.)

15553. Cellar Door - 2/3/2001 11:47:52 AM

Well I just voted for Seth Green cause he's the adorable feisty little Jewish Punk-Boy of my dreams.

I've seen him at the Virgin Megastore in L.A. ( an ideal cruising spot) and he's actually shorter than he appears.

15554. CalGal - 2/3/2001 12:04:34 PM

Butter, that's a great link. I'm adding it to the bar. It got Huggy Bear, Bennie, and Les Nessman.

15555. Autodaffy - 2/3/2001 9:55:35 PM

Columbo fits the description, but the constant emphasis on his lack of couth and the sophistication of his prey was, to cite something someone said, characteristic of tv: just a little too repetitive.

have a look at Cold Feet, the Brit Bravo comic import on Monday nights. It has its moments.

15556. Autodaffy - 2/3/2001 9:59:23 PM

Which reminds me of that other Brit series about a small town. All the parts were played by men, and the characters were almost all perverse and insane. Is it still on? I think it was on Comedy Central. The title may have been The League of Gentlemen. It was hilarious.

15557. mgleason - 2/3/2001 10:48:55 PM

We watched Elizabeth last night for the first time, and I was well and truly angered by gross distortions in a film that purports to be historically accurate. Most dramatic tales take some poetic license, but this was outrageous, and served no purpose at all.

Elizabeth's life, not to mention the era, was interesting enough without inventing such foolishness as Bishop Gardiner serving under Elizabeth (he was dead before she even ascended the throne), the execution of Sussex (who was responsible for squelching a rebellion against Elizabeth), Walsingham's assassination(!) of Mary of Guise, and the dismissal of Cecil in favor of Walsingham, who wasn't even part of Elizabeth's court till much later in her reign.

Elizabeth doesn't even mention one of the greatest scandals of the era: the suspicious death of Amy Robsart, Robin Dudley's wife, which left him free to pursue the Queen, and would have been a much more dramatic anchor for the film than the various Godfather-like reprisals carried out in the Queen's name.

I won't even go into the numerous other inaccuracies, but will instead conclude by repining over the waste of talented actors on such inferior material. In revenge, I am indulging myself by re-reading Anne Sommerset's wonderful Elizabeth I. I suggest that anyone who hasn't already seen Elizabeth do the same.

15558. CalGal - 2/3/2001 11:03:57 PM

Sister!!!!

I have to rant about that film every so often. It is offensively bad, and what is worse is that it was well-reviewed when it came out. Anyone who speaks well of it must endure my everlasting scorn.

Did you read my review on it?

You know what's really tragic? I knew about Robert Dudley and the wife scandal because....I read it when I was 12 in a Victoria Holt "historical romance". But of course, that's where you go for historical accuracy these days--bodice rippers.

15559. Shannon - 2/3/2001 11:07:25 PM

That is a cool link.

15560. CalGal - 2/3/2001 11:11:01 PM

You haven't seen Mote@theMovies yet? Your review will end up on it pretty soon. I'm still trying to automate as much of the creation process as possible, since it takes a long time to build.

And it's annoying, because I want to get the serendipity and discussion sections added, but everyone writes so many reviews that I can't get caught up. (sob) So the only section that has stuff is the reviews section.

15561. iiibbb - 2/3/2001 11:45:48 PM

Just saw 6-String Samurai on DVD

excellent movie

15562. mgleason - 2/3/2001 11:51:32 PM

You know, I can't get the movie site to let me in so I can read your review. I'll post again when it decides to accept my Open Sesame.

15563. wonkers2 - 2/4/2001 12:39:05 AM

Saw "House of Mirth" at the Detroit Film Theatre tonight. Well worth seeing for a dissection of manners and morals of the upper crust in turn-of-the-century New York City. Gillian Anderson (X-Files) was quite good as Lily Bart, the main character whose refusal to play the game expected of her led to her downfall at the hands of several nasty high society characters. The movie was based on Edith Wharton's semi-autobiographical novel. Dan Ackroyd played one of the worst villans in the story. I found him a bit hard to swallow because of his previous comedy roles, perhaps not because of any deficiency in his acting. Laura Linney was quite good as another of the tale's baddies.

The movie was filmed in Glasgow, not New York, and directed by Brit, Terence Davies. The program note compared "House of Mirth" to Scorsese's "The Age of Innocence." Scorsese was "fascinated by the ways people used beautiful manners as lethal weapons. He considered them far more ruthless that the mafiosi he usually filmed."

15564. mgleason - 2/4/2001 12:50:08 AM

Speaking of historical (or histerical) bodice-rippers, Virginia Henley wrote a pretty good one about Bess of Hardwick, another strong-willed Elizabethan redhead who became one of the wealthiest and most powerful women in England. (The Dukes of Devonshire are her descendants.)

Her life would make a movie and a half!

15565. mgleason - 2/4/2001 12:50:38 AM

Sorry, that's hysterical.

15566. Cellar Door - 2/4/2001 12:53:01 AM

Terence Davies

15567. Cellar Door - 2/4/2001 2:36:34 PM

Meanwhile, elsewhere in England. . .

15568. CalGal - 2/4/2001 2:42:09 PM

I started to watch "Chuck and Buck" and it just nauseated me. I don't think I'll be able to finish it. Gleauck.

15569. Indiana Jones - 2/4/2001 2:52:18 PM

Watched The Cell and Beyond the Clouds

The Cell--starring Jennifer Lopez, Vince Vaughn, and Vincent D'Onofrio--pretty much sucked. First-time director Tarsem Duamdwar supposedly developed his directorial chops in the music video arena, and he should stay there. Lots of stunning visuals, but a painfully gruesome movie with little compensation for the trauma of entering the mind of a serial killer (just as likely the mind of Duamdwar, who one assumes dreamed up this mess).

Well, it wasn't as bad as Beyond the Clouds in terms of sheer time-waster, but only a misogynist should find this film enjoyable. And if anyone is hoping for eroticism because of Jennifer Lopez, forget it unless your idea of titillation involves seeing Vincent D'Onofrio hook chains to his flesh so he can dangle nude over the cloroxed corpse of his latest drowned victim. Considering the uproar the novel American Psycho caused just a few years ago, that The Cell passed with but a yawn shows we've come along way, baby.

BTW, the DVD filmography shows by my count D'Onofrio making 42 movies in about the last 15 years. And he still had time to land Greta Scaachi.

What a man...

15570. Indiana Jones - 2/4/2001 3:03:17 PM

Beyond the Clouds is a total stinkeroo--or I assume it is because I quit halfway through it out of sheer boredom. Not even gratuitious nudity from two quite fetching actresses could convince me to hang on for the third and fourth vignettes of the four the film comprises.

I read this on the NetFlix review site:

"Though severely hampered by a massive stroke, director Michelangelo Antonioni continues as strong as ever in his quest to deliver divine, melancholy images in his movies."

Perhaps a massive stroke justifies this film, but otherwise it's as though Zalman King decided to make Red Shoe Diaries without any actual sex. Sure, like The Cell, lots of great individual shots--Sophie Marceau's nude form makes any camera angle appear inspired--but apparently Antonioni's condition caused him to forget that a film is more than just photography.

John Malkovich narrates with a driveling monologue that I thought at first was meant to be satirical, until it went on and on and on and on and...you get the idea.

Pretentious, plotless, pathetic--an unintentional parody of the quintessential European film a'la Last Year at Marienbad.

15571. mgleason - 2/4/2001 3:26:59 PM

Today I'm in the mood for a bit of historical whimsy done the right way, so it's The Lion in Winter for me. That elusive and much maligned quality, 'chemistry,' is so strong between Hepburn and O'Toole, that the other actors are reduced to

attendant lord[s], one[s] that will do
To swell a progress, start a scene or two.

Who can gainsay Eleanor when she remembers how she and Henry 'shattered the Commandments on the spot' in Paris? Who can doubt that a woman who rode on Crusade is his match in every way?

This is the perfect antidote to Elizabeth and its tale of tawdry romance between Blanchett and Fiennes.

15572. CalGal - 2/4/2001 3:37:08 PM

Now there's a movie with some great lines:

"If you're a prince there's hope for every ape in Africa."

15573. CalGal - 2/4/2001 3:38:05 PM

And then, of course, there is the demand of all forum participants: "I'm vilifying you, for God's sake--pay attention!"

15574. CalGal - 2/4/2001 3:39:45 PM

I abandoned Chuck and Buck, btw. Just couldn't bear it. Mansfield Park is the selection of the day.

15575. mgleason - 2/4/2001 3:54:05 PM

Good choice; Mansfield Park may well be my second feature presentation.

I think you should adopt

I'm vilifying you, for God's sake--pay attention!

as a tagline pour épater les bourgeois on TT.

15576. CalGal - 2/4/2001 4:04:45 PM

hhahahahahaha! That would be a good one. I think I'll take that up immediately.

Do you know, I just realized that the guy playing the dad is, apparently, the Harold Pinter.

15577. Cellar Door - 2/4/2001 4:33:09 PM

"Chuck and Buck" is indeed horrendous. I've run into many who adore it, however.

I think it's dishonest.

15578. CalGal - 2/4/2001 5:05:36 PM

Well, I probably didn't dislike it for the same reasons you did. I've read enough of the reviews to get a feel for why you wouldn't like it, and I can see where that might happen.

But my loathing was far simpler; I got the pure willies from Buck, and I couldn't stand watching another minute. I got as far as him making it up to the sixth floor and turned it off.

15579. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 5:14:24 PM

mgleason,

What does "pour epater" mean?

I guess I could look it up. But it would be easier if you just told me. (or anyone else.)

15580. CalGal - 2/4/2001 5:19:48 PM

She's telling me I should use that tagline to impress the TT folks, was how I read it.

15581. JudithAtHome - 2/4/2001 5:21:55 PM

I think it means..."to bug people like Ace."

15582. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 5:23:56 PM

Cal,

I know the general thrust of the post. I want to know the translation of "pour epater les bourgeouis."

The "les bourgeouis" I can pretty much figure out.

"Epater," I dunno. Though I think I've seen it on my g'friend's make-up stuff.

For some reason, I'm thinking epater means sword or blade.

At any rate.

15583. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 5:27:04 PM

I suppose it also might mean "face."

This the point: I don't know what the word means, and I don't like that.

15584. CalGal - 2/4/2001 5:27:55 PM

Oh, I always thought it meant impress. But it might mean to astonish or shock. My French is weak at best.

15585. JudithAtHome - 2/4/2001 5:29:50 PM

It means to flatten or to flabbergast. I looked it up in my French dictionary.

15586. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 5:30:51 PM

Ah. It isn't even a noun.

Thank you.

15587. Cellar Door - 2/4/2001 5:37:44 PM

"It isn't even a noun"

You mean a verb is a lesser form of speech?

15588. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 5:40:16 PM

No, I mean that I was completely wrong, and that I didn't even guess the part-of-speech accurately. "It isn't even a noun" as I had assumed.

Verbs and nouns are, of course, coequal parts of speech.

15589. mgleason - 2/4/2001 5:41:56 PM

Sorry; I was off-line. The expression means to shock the conventionally-minded.

15590. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 5:43:21 PM

Mgleason,

word by word, it means "for shocking the bourgeouis"?

Or somethin' like that?

15591. JudithAtHome - 2/4/2001 5:45:12 PM

Of course, the French are so elegant in speech but I read it to mean "for knocking the lesser folk on their asses."

15592. mgleason - 2/4/2001 5:48:48 PM

Yes, word for word. 'Bourgeois' is shorthand for conventionally respectable and dull.

15593. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 5:49:50 PM

mgleason,

"Bourgeouis" was the only word I knew, and of course I knew its metaphorical meaning. You don't have to know French to know "bourgeouis," you know.

15594. mgleason - 2/4/2001 5:52:31 PM

Well, Marxists give it a bit of a different flavor.

15595. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 5:57:17 PM

XFL Debut Draws Strong TV Rating
By Howard Fendrich
AP Sports Writer
Sunday, Feb. 4, 2001; 5:13 p.m. EST

NEW YORK –– Style over substance certainly sells.

The XFL's television debut was deafening, dizzying and strewn with double entendres, relegating the mediocre football itself to sideshow status.

And that formula, devised by the fledgling league's owners NBC-TV and the World Wrestling Federation, could be precisely why the show drew impressive preliminary ratings Saturday night for the Las Vegas Outlaws against the New York/New Jersey Hitmen.

An average of 10.3 percent of television households tuned in at any given moment, giving NBC a prime-time victory over the other networks. That rating – based on the country's 49 biggest markets, each preliminary point represents roughly 675,000 TV homes – is more than double what advertisers were told to expect.



Heh, heh, heh.

I saw about twenty minutes of this last night. After watching the busty, spilling-out-of-their-bras strippers/cheerleaders, I told my girlfriend:

"If this isn't a big hit, then I don't understand anything about America."

I won't comment upon the sports conent, except to say it was what you would expect: semi-pro football with a bit of hype and glitz.

But as a programming move, I think (as I've always thought) it's quite brilliant. At worst, it garners a mediocre low 4 rating -- no worse than the ratings for any other Saturday Night bullshit. At best, it makes Saturday into a very profitable night.

It's all upside.

15596. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 6:03:59 PM

And of course it will not maintain a 10 rating. It will fall, and fall quickly, to the six level, or even to a 5. But that's still a "hit" for Saturday nights. Or at least it's profitable.

And good god... for all the silly hype about the cheerleaders, I must admit: If I'm home on Saturday night, and my girlfriend isn't looking... then by God yes, I will turn on the XFL, just to see those damn stripper/cheerleaders.

15597. AceofSpades - 2/4/2001 6:10:44 PM

During prolonged ground-up shots of cheerleaders after a commercial break in the first quarter, Vasgersian summed up the scene with a simple declaration: "I feel uncomfortable."

Gaywad.

One more point: The XFL has introduced a terrific innovation which will (if possible) be duplicated by the NFL.

Basically, they hang a camera on a line over midfield. This allows some terrific low-angle shots from just above the backfield, allowing the viewer to look downfield as if he was the quaterback (or a very tall quaterback, at least). It's a terrific shot, and adds great excitement to the game.

The only problem I see is this: since the line hangs over midfield, it is possible that a long bomb from the thirty might actually HIT the line.

I don't know if the NFL would ever allow a camera to possibly interfere with a long pass. I don't know what the XFL does to insure against this possibility, if anything. Perhaps they take a "Fuck it, it's a great shot, and so what if the occasional bomb hits the wire" attitude. Or perhaps they are able to raise the line so high that they can eliminate the possibility of wire-interference (this is only a problem when the team on offense is marching towards the line; once the team has passed the wire, it's no longer a concern).

If they can raise the line high enough to avoid a pass hitting it, I can't see how the NFL could possibly *not* duplicate this great camera placement.

15598. mgleason - 2/5/2001 12:24:34 AM

We decided to watch North by Northwest as the second feature. I'm very glad, as I'd forgotten what a stylish and witty film it is.

Cary Grant is the perfect Hitchcockian hero: urbane and debonair, facing calamity without a hair out of place. Eva Marie Saint, like Grace Kelly before her, beautiful, blonde, and mysterious, is his perfect foil. The McGuffin is bigger and more ambitious than ever; in this case, it takes over the whole plot, demonstrating what a film like The Fugitive would have been like in Hitchcock's canny hands.

North by Northwest is the classic mistaken identity/chase film, in which an advertising executive (divorced by two wives for dullness) becomes entangled in the spy world's wilderness of mirrors, where nothing is what it seems, especially one's friends. We are so caught up in the action that the fact that there is no plot to speak of is completely incidental. Bolstered by amazing cinematography and a suberb supporting cast, including Leo G. Carroll, James Mason, and Martin Landau, North by Northwest rockets along at a pace that doesn't allow us to draw breath until the very last frame.

It was a wonderful change of pace.

15599. CalGal - 2/5/2001 1:59:06 AM

I love North by Northwest. "Not very sporting, using real bullets."

Hitchcock films are one of the few categories I actually feel comfortable rating. Rear Window, Notorious, and North by Northwest are my top three.

I used to put Vertigo up there because it is so widely considered to be great that, when I was recommending Hitch films to others, I felt it was responsible to tell other people that even though I didn't like it much, it's generally considered great.

But I just tried to watch it again recently, and enough of that. It's a boring movie and I hate Kim Novak. So push Vertigo way down the heap anymore.

Psycho comes in at four, and after that ranking Hitch films becomes more of a tradeoff. How do you compare Strangers on a Train and The Thirty Nine Steps?

15600. mgleason - 2/5/2001 3:44:51 AM

I’ve much fondness for The 39 Steps, certainly because it prefigures North by Northwest in all the ways that matter, but also because of Hitchcock’s brilliant point of view work. His technique is so fresh, so vivid, that it still holds up against anything being done today. Who else could convincingly foreshadow the Nazi menace with a romantic thriller?

While Strangers on a Train is proof positive that no one can showcase humanity’s kinks like Hitchcock, I personally rate it lower than The 39 Steps. His villains, fun-house reflections of the heroic everymen who can reach down deep to defy all the odds against them, have the same unsuspected reserves of ingenuity, and are just as much fun to watch. My only quibble is that I find Hitchcock to have a heavier hand with psychological thrillers like this one. There’s too much self-conscious emphasis on the eerie (the scene in Bruno’s father’s house, for example), reminding me of those unforgettable scenes in High Anxiety with the creepy music giving chase and the camera that crashes through the window.

I agree completely about Kim Novak, BTW. She ruins Vertigo for me.

15601. AytchMan - 2/5/2001 4:11:34 AM

I'd also place The Man Who Knew Too Much and To Catch A Thief up among Hitchcock's better movies.

A lot of his movies haven't aged well. Kim Novak was one hot property back in her day but, I agree, Vertigo has slipped. Some of the scenes are very Fifties. On the other hand, Rear Window has aged even more -- some of the scenes in the other buildings are now tough to watch --but, imho, the movie continues as one of Hitch's best.

15602. Cellar Door - 2/5/2001 9:36:51 AM

Kim Novak is a Goddess! "Vertigo" is a masterpiece!

However, my favorite Hitchcock film is "Rope."

15603. wonkers2 - 2/5/2001 9:42:42 AM

With XFL, Police/crime shows, Court TV, Chris Matthews, et al, and Howard Stern what more could anyone ask? A few live executions from the Lone Star state, perhaps.

15604. rubberducky - 2/5/2001 10:09:50 AM

Re: Message # 15595, AceofSpades.

wrt the XFL, Salon has a great article on why it won't work.

the argument is pretty solid, imo, for the league to not last. as stated in the article, i just don't see the core demographic staying home on a Saturday night to watch sports. it's been tried before and it failed then as it will now.

15605. glendajean - 2/5/2001 10:47:25 AM

I saw Chocolat over the weekend. One more entry in the MFK Fisher eating is a sensual religious experience genre of movies (includes Babbette's Feast, Big Night, and Like Water for Chocalate.

A feel good fable about love, tolerance and the power of refined sugar to change a 1960 French village. The town is presided over by Alfred Molina's puritanical count and a young malleable priest (who looks like one of the N'Sync boys). Julliette Binoche is lovely, insightful, and makes a mean cup of hot chocolate. Johnny Depp has a small part as a roving, hippy Irish blues balladeer. Judi Dench eats up a little scenery as a cranky, diabetic free thinker.

Speaking of diabetes, this movie is a bit too sweet for me. Unlike those other food movies, this movie takes a fabulistic approach bordering on the sentiment of a Coke commercial at Christmas time, circa 1969. Juliette has powers that she dispenses through her chocolate. Throw in middle aged love, a small feminist sub-story and the use of chocolate in about every scene, one wonders if the marketing people were targeting this movie towards chocolate lovers who like a sweeet little love story.

Or perhaps, like The English Patient, this is one chick-flick that I just don't get.

15606. Raskolnikov - 2/5/2001 11:00:30 AM

Cal:"But I just tried to watch it again recently, and enough of that. It's a boring movie and I hate Kim Novak. So push Vertigo way down the
heap anymore. "

Amen, sister!

Re: The XFL. I watched 45 minutes of it. My instincts were similar to Ace's, that the bad taste elements could easily turn this thing into a successful league. I also liked the overhead wire shot, and think the NFL could easily adopt it, as quarterbacks aren't known for throwing bombs in the wrong direction very often. I expected the ratings to be high.

But damn, the football was boring. With the skanky cheerleaders only having very meager screen time, and with 90% of the open mike comments being unintelligible, clever camera use alone isn't going to turn this into a watchable football game. You could see that the teams wanted to test the rules, and NY was promptly given a pass interference penalty the first time they tried it. And field goals were still the norm, with the addition of lots of dropped passes, ala high school.

If they want to succeed in the long run, I think they will either have to massively increase the cheese factors (where were the rival team's cheerleaders? Periodically staged catfights between cheerleaders would be a ratings bonanza. Also, the cheerleaders should perform some sort of suggestive endzone dance with the players after every score) and/or improve the quality of the game.

15607. rubberducky - 2/5/2001 11:48:31 AM

looks like there will be another Alien flick:

LONDON (Reuters) - More than 20 years after the first ''Alien'' film shocked audiences around the world, actress Sigourney Weaver has agreed a 15 million pound deal to play Ripley for a fifth time, the Sunday Express reported.

The British paper said the film --which will be set on Earth for the first time -- would be released in 2004, the 25th anniversary of the original.

``I've always wanted to do one where we go back to the planet from where the alien originally came or even get to Earth,'' Weaver told the newspaper.

The 51-year-old actress will also be executive producer on ''Alien 5,'' written by ``Buffy the Vampire Slayer'' creator Joss Wheedon.

i hope it is good and will see it regardless, but 51! dang, that's pushing it i think.

15608. Raskolnikov - 2/5/2001 11:55:02 AM

I am more curious about who they will get to direct. The Alien films have lived or died by the choice of the director. For some reason, I bet they pick the guy who directed The Cell. Blech.

15609. CalGal - 2/5/2001 12:33:34 PM

I lament for the thousandth time the wrongheaded decision to make Alien 3 a reality, rather than a Bobby in shower episode.

Rask,

Ha! I knew you'd pick up on that.

Maria,

I very much like The Thirty Nine Steps and The Lady Vanishes, from his 30s period. I haven't seen Young and Innocent yet, which is a Josephine Tey book as well. I agree that I'd rather see The Thirty Nine Steps and The Lady Vanishes than Strangers on a Train. My point was that they are very difficult to compare.

Aytch,

I don't much care for To Catch a Thief--too fluffy for me. I also can't much enjoy the 50s version of The Man Who Knew Too Much after having seen the original, which is far superior.

15610. rubberducky - 2/5/2001 12:38:18 PM

for those of us who didn't care for the game but wanted to catch some good commercials, there's this site

i like the E-Trade & Dr Pepper ones myself

15611. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 1:25:33 PM

Ducks...

i hope it is good and will see it regardless, but 51! dang, that's pushing it i think.

The callowness of youth! She looks damned good for 51, peewee....

15612. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 1:26:13 PM

("peewee" is an affectionate term in Hawaii, by the way.)

15613. janjon - 2/5/2001 1:28:50 PM

And, "peewee" is also the name for self-affection in certain movie theaters. In western Florida at least.

15614. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 1:30:48 PM

Ah, yes....well, needless to say, I was in a Hawaii frame of mind...

15615. Raskolnikov - 2/5/2001 1:43:35 PM

I caught Young and Innocent on DVD a few weeks ago. It is Hitchcock by-the-numbers: Man accused of a crime he didn't commit, romantic interest who helps him, a couple of virtuoso scenes, a couple great supporting characters, all wrapped up in a shitty plot resolution. Having re-watched most of his best older stuff recently, I think the only film which approaches the quality of his ten best late forties 40s/50s Hollywood films is 39 Steps.

15616. CalGal - 2/5/2001 1:53:17 PM

What do you consider his ten best? I know the top four, I'm pretty sure.

15617. rubberducky - 2/5/2001 2:49:12 PM

Re: Message # 15611, JudithAtHome.

The callowness of youth! She looks damned good for 51, peewee....

she is attractive, of course. but, i just think a 50+ woman action movie star is a bit of a stretch. maybe i'm sexist, but i just hope they address that in the movie. Connery has done action flicks older than 60, i am sure, but somehow that wasn't a problem.

15618. CalGal - 2/5/2001 2:51:33 PM

The problem is all in your "somehow".

15619. rubberducky - 2/5/2001 2:54:59 PM

as i said, perhaps i am sexist in this regard

15620. pogie - 2/5/2001 2:57:10 PM

At 51, she would be rangy and ornery enough to be a nifty action hero. However, a fifth alien movie is just not a good idea for lots of other reasons.

15621. CalGal - 2/5/2001 2:58:39 PM

Yes, my main objection is that the last two have been pretty weak. But you know, they could make the whole thing a dream. That'd be a kick.

15622. Raskolnikov - 2/5/2001 3:05:51 PM

10 best Hitchcock from the 40s/50s: Psycho, Rear Window, Notorious, North by Northwest, Strangers on a Train, Shadow of a Doubt, Foreign Correspondent, Spellbound, Rebecca, and Vertigo. I still need to see "Stage Fright", and I really should watch Rope, To Catch a Thief, and the remake of Man Who Knew Too Much again, as I haven't seen any of them in over 10 years.

15623. Raskolnikov - 2/5/2001 3:19:42 PM

Well, Alien 4 left them with a decent starting point to a sequel, with Ripley arriving on Earth. Tons of potential from that, and you can pretty safely jettison the weirdness from Alien 4 without saying that it never happened: Ripley arrives, finds out that The Company managed to get an Alien to Earth despite her best efforts, and then a host of stories present themselves. Such as: Ripley is locked in with the captive Aliens, and has to survive after they inevitably break out; she allies herself with a revolutionary group to break in and destroy the Aliens, and has to fight Company security along with the rampaging critters (my favorite - you get multiple factions with shifting alliances, and one of the series best themes has always been that we are more of a threat to ourselves than the Aliens are); Aliens are used in a military action, the military loses control, and they depend on Ripley to save the day and contain the problem; etc.

15624. CalGal - 2/5/2001 3:21:05 PM

I'd reverse Shadow of a Doubt and Strangers on a Train, on my list. To Catch a Thief is far more watchable than Vertigo and Rebecca--my main objection to it is that it a tad fluffy. Rope is terribly overwrought and has no great performances to overcome this (which the other two do).

I haven't seen all of Sabotage or Saboteur recently to know if they'd beat out anything in that group. But generally, I can go along with that list. (with the caveat that Psycho was made in the 60s, wasn't it?)

So back to your comment that Thirty Nine Steps is the only 30s film that holds up to that group. While The Lady Vanishes has nothing new to offer in terms of its story, I find it extremely entertaining and I'd much rather watch it than Rebecca or Vertigo (or To Catch a Thief, for that matter). The Man Who Knew Too Much is also quite good, considering when it was made, but its technical limitations keep it from being a real competitor.

So I'm sticking by TLV and 39S as the best of the 30s, and I think TLV holds up well against the last three or four of that list.

15625. Raskolnikov - 2/5/2001 3:26:56 PM

Everything after Olivier's confession in Rebecca is just awful, and I do like Stewart's Performance, the score, and the camerawork to Vertigo enough to rank it as better than Wrong Man, Suspicion, and other lesser Hitch films. Lady Vanishes is okay, but aside from its clever story gimmick, doesn't have much to recommend it, and its ending is the silliest one Hitchcock ever put on film.

15626. CalGal - 2/5/2001 3:32:10 PM

The very end? I thought it was not much difference from NbyNW in its quick cut and finish. Or are you referring to something else?

I think Redgrave's performance is terrific, as are the two cricket obsessed chaps. As I said, I won't argue that it is a great film, but it's far more enjoyable than Rebecca and Vertigo.

I find myself watching Foreign Correspondent quite a bit--that's another one that's just a lot of fun.

15627. Raskolnikov - 2/5/2001 3:41:10 PM

On Alien 5, from Corona's Coming Attractions...

"Sunday Express out of London is reporting that Weaver's signed and Whedon's scribing. Well, let's look at the evidence.

First, it's in a London tabloid. Unless you started reading this site today, then you know that immediately makes any entertainment story suspect to the point of being immediately labelled B.S. Also, they say that Weaver's going to make 15 million pounds off the deal. 15 million pounds is about $22 million US. A little on the high side, if you ask us. Further, when we tried to go to the Express site, the story's not even on there.

And as for Weaver's quote that she wants to do one where the alien gets to Earth? "I've always wanted to do one where we go back to the planet from where the alien originally came or even get to Earth." Scroll up a bit to our 12/22/99 scoop on this same page. Looks similar, doesn't it? An Anonymous scooper even figured this was bogus and pointed that out to us.

Are we saying it's not happening? Yeah, pretty much. In fact, we have no idea why Yahoo and Reuters ran this story, since it is rank with the smell of fecal matter. Ignore this and hope it goes away."

15628. Raskolnikov - 2/5/2001 3:42:06 PM

Cal: for LV, I was referring to the climactic shoot out. The final scenes in London are fine.

15629. ChristinO - 2/5/2001 3:46:19 PM

When Ripley arrives on Earth The Company "quarantines" her and subjects her to massive brain washing. They make her commanderof a fighting platoon of Aliens (her alien DNA allows her to communicate with the creatures) which they have somehow modified to make them more controlable.

Of course this all backfires because Ripley's alien DNA overthrows their brain-washing and she goes on a rampage leading her alien soldiers on a bloody campaign to destroy The Company. Unfortunately when the Aliens finish kicking butt on the bad guys they start killing innocent civilians and Ripley's humanity then kicks in. Ripley manages to control them long enough to have the entire platoon commit a mass suicide in a volcano.

Or they could steal a twist from McCammon's They Thirst and find that seawater will kill the creatures and she could lead them all into the ocean or over a cliff or something.

15630. ChristinO - 2/5/2001 4:45:40 PM

Come on, isn't it Hollywood enough for you people? You've got to admit that it has the right amount of cliche and potential for special FX as well as a spectacular if implausible ending that leaves room for an Aliens 6.

15631. AceofSpades - 2/5/2001 4:46:47 PM

"However, a fifth alien movie is just not a good idea for lots of other reasons."

Two such reasons are "Alien 3" and "Alien 4."

15632. AceofSpades - 2/5/2001 4:53:04 PM

RD,

"wrt the XFL, Salon has a great article on why it won't work."

I thought that aritcle was well-reasoned, myself.

But there's a problem:

While the *reasoning* is nice, we now have actual *facts*. And the facts show that the XFL game garnered a huge 10.3 rating, double the best recent ratings for Saturday Night previously.

Now, did a bunch of kids who otherwise would have gone out stayed home specifically for the XFL? Well, if they did, that means people *will* stay in to watch this crap, doesn't it?

If -- as is more likely -- people who were home anyway checked it out, then it is quite possible the XFL can garner respectable-to-good ratings for the season.

15633. AceofSpades - 2/5/2001 5:07:59 PM

And note that you can grab huge ratings just by getting all the people watching the myriad pay and cable channels to tune into a particular show. Witness Survivor II, which posted a huge rating while Friends also got a bigger-than-normal rating, and ABC only lost a few points (not enough to equal CBS's gains). So what happened? Well, women who were watching the Lifetime Channel and guys who were watching the same episode of "Story of the Gun" on the History channel for the fiftieth time watched Survivor.

Networks used to always get ratings far, far above what they get now.

But the XFL can certainly fail. Certainly, I can see the ratings spiralling down into nothing. I can envision an embarassed mid-season cancellation.

That *can* happen. But the evidence so far is that it's a hit.

And why shouldn't it be? Given the crap that's on TV, a slickly produced semi-pro football game with big-busted strippers playing shake-your-ass cheerleaders *should* get a decent rating. Hey-- it's reality TV, as they say.

15634. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:57:55 PM

This is for Cellar:

Cruise and Kidman Decide To Separate
The Associated Press
Monday, Feb. 5, 2001; 2:35 p.m. EST

LOS ANGELES –– After 11 years of marriage, Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman said Monday that they are separating because their work is keeping them apart.

Pat Kingsley, a spokeswoman for the actors, said the decision was made regretfully.

"Citing the difficulties inherent in divergent careers, which constantly keep them apart, they concluded that an amicable separation seems best for both of them at this time," Kingsley said.

Guess that means a lot of "mystery woman" stories for Tommy, huh?

15635. janjon - 2/5/2001 6:01:45 PM

Who's the guy?

Question posed concerning both parties, I guess.

15636. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 6:08:18 PM

Who knows...Kingsley refused to answer firther questions, according to the article.

Probably Russell Crowe...he seems to get around to all the ladies.

15637. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 6:08:48 PM

further, not firther...

15638. ChristinO - 2/5/2001 6:16:46 PM

How depressing. I was so fond of them as a couple.

15639. CalGal - 2/5/2001 6:17:40 PM

Nicole hasn't had enough hits lately.

15640. mgleason - 2/5/2001 6:18:31 PM

I've been inspired by the Hitchcock discussion. The Lady Vanishes and The Man Who Knew Too Much are on deck for tonight.

15641. Cellar Door - 2/5/2001 6:19:50 PM

Actually, Judith, I'm shocked. SHOCKED! It was far and away (pun intended) the most successful fake marriage in show business.

Maybe that studio exec Tom has stashed up in the Hollywood hills has given him an ultimatum. Or maybe it's one of her old girlfriends.

Don't think I'm not on the case about this one -- even as I post!

(At last -- something to write about other than those fucking Republicans!)

15642. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 6:23:13 PM

Keep us posted, Cellar....

15643. ChristinO - 2/5/2001 6:38:54 PM

Another of Tom's "Best Friends" falls by the wayside.

15644. CalGal - 2/5/2001 6:51:59 PM

Maria, do you have DVD? The commentary on TLV is very good. Are you going with the early version of TMWKTM or the 50s version? The 50s version isn't all that terrible, but it is extremely depressing to see the changes in the female lead and realize what a step down women took in 20 years--at least onscreen.

15645. mgleason - 2/5/2001 7:10:02 PM

CG, we finally bought a DVD player a couple of weeks ago. (I always dither for a long while before taking the plunge with new technology.) We're watching the original TMWKTM, as I can't get enough of Peter Lorre (or too little of Doris Day). I'm excited about the discussion on TLV, as I've heard that it's really worth it.

15646. CalGal - 2/5/2001 7:12:12 PM

Can you get to the geocities site yet? It is available, but some people have reported problems in the past--which causes me to think it is a router problem or ISP issue, rather than the server being down. Anyway, I wrote a review of TMWKTM.

The Lady Vanishes is just very, very funny in parts. Michael Redgrave is just ridiculously attractive.

15647. ChristinO - 2/5/2001 7:12:26 PM

Ooooh! Now I want to go do a Hitchcock fest and I don't have a free evening for the next ten days. Waaaaaaah!!!!!!!

15648. CalGal - 2/5/2001 7:15:12 PM

I have decided to give my DVD player to my mother and stepfather and buy a new one. Has anyone heard of the new Pioneer DVD player?

15649. mgleason - 2/5/2001 7:19:05 PM

I think I'm jinxed. I can get to your review site, but I can't find TMWKTM!

The fun thing about DVD is that I'm rediscovering tons of movies I've not seen in ages, like all my old Hitchcock favorites.

Christin: I'm on a bender!

15650. CalGal - 2/5/2001 7:27:56 PM

Maria--out of curiousity, can you ping www.geocities.com?

(If you don't know how to do this, it's Start-->Run-->enter www.geocities.com in the Open field.

You'll either get a long pause or it will return with packets.

15651. CalGal - 2/5/2001 7:28:23 PM

Oh, wait. I just read it again. Duh. That's what I get for doing four things at once. Hang on.

15652. ChristinO - 2/5/2001 7:29:06 PM

I seriously need a bender. I don't know what I've been doing with my life recently but I have this huge pile of books that I haven't read yet. I mean, I generally read at least two if not three or four books a week and since October I probably haven't read a total of 10 altogether.

There are a zillion movies piling up on my list of things to see and rent and now I'm having visions of Hitchcock dancing in my head.

I need a vacation!

15653. mgleason - 2/5/2001 7:31:02 PM

I did that (Start - Run), and got to the GeoCities start page.

15654. mgleason - 2/5/2001 7:31:47 PM

Ah, x-post. OK.

15655. CalGal - 2/5/2001 7:32:11 PM

Maria,

Review

It's my fault--I have automated the creation and updating of the front page, which is very clever of me. Unfortunately, it means that if I am not careful I can miss a movie name.

15656. mgleason - 2/5/2001 7:38:17 PM

Good review; thanks.

15657. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 2/5/2001 8:39:41 PM

Ask Dr. Coltrane:

A gentle reader queries...

What is Alfred Hitchcock's best film?

The good doctor sez...

Notorious

15658. Cellar Door - 2/5/2001 8:56:24 PM

And I still say "Rope."

15659. CalGal - 2/5/2001 9:14:27 PM

Yes, I know. But you're overwrought, too.

15660. mgleason - 2/5/2001 9:22:51 PM

Rope was a noble experiment, but even Hitchcock admitted he'd not gotten it right.

Off to the flicks!

15661. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 9:29:03 PM

Jeez, Anna Devere Smith is everywhere... 100 Centre Street tonight.

15662. rubberducky - 2/6/2001 8:57:00 AM

Re: Message # 15632, AceofSpades.

While the *reasoning* is nice, we now have actual *facts*. And the facts show that the XFL game garnered a huge 10.3 rating, double the best recent ratings for Saturday Night previously.

well, in the article in question, it clearly predicts a huge opening night and then the ratings to take a quick dive. i happen to agree with that still - i suppose we'll know in a week's time.

15663. ScottLoar - 2/6/2001 9:19:44 AM

I saw Chocolat last night. The movie could have been edited to a half-hour and still would be ten minutes too long.

15664. DocBrown - 2/6/2001 9:39:39 AM

Nobody takes their favorite TV show as seriously as I do.  For proof I offer these pictures from Doc Brown's Junkyard Wars Party:

A few weeks ago I invited some of my nerdy friends over to watch Junkyard Wars (known as Scrapheap Challenge in England).  I asked them to show up three hours early, but did not tell them why.  This picture shows the moment they found out, as they stand around the junk I had heaped on my normally beautiful dining room table:

"Tonight on Make a Horrible Mess of my Dining Room Challenge, your mission in to make an Air Cushion Vehicle, a Surface Skimmer, indeed the finest Hovercraft you possibly can.  You have only three hours to complete your masterpiece, and you may use nothing but the scoria that lies before 'ya."

Many thanks to a certain purveyor of ladies undergarments for throwing out this fine piece of foamcore, which made an excellent deck.

The propulsion motor needed a pylon mount, and this Whiskey bottle looked good.  Once we had drained the bottle, everything looked good! Note the toy car that donated its radio gear and other parts.

I have more pictures, including the moment of truth when we Junkyard Wars junkies took our completed hovercraft out to the lake for its maiden voyage. Shall I post them?

15665. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 9:50:28 AM

Definitely! And soon....

15666. DocBrown - 2/6/2001 10:06:49 AM

Here the team fits their styrofoam-mounted fan on the center section of the deck.

Here they work on a sophistocated inflatable skirt, made from household trash bags welded with a kitched food sealing appliance.

Here the team solders together their designed-on-th-spot control and power circuitry using parts scavanged from various toys. Amazingly enough, it worked on the first try!

The business end of a hovercraft taking shape.  As you can imagine, the team used up several rolls of duct tape.

15667. DocBrown - 2/6/2001 10:20:17 AM

Finally, here is the team placing their completed Hovercraft on the frozen Shaker Lake near my house. I do not live in the country. To picture the Shaker Lakes setting, imagine New York's Central Park. Even late a night we attracted some attention.

Note the large size of the craft, the twin rows of "D" cell batteries, and the prevalence of duct tape.

Here is the Hovercraft flying across the lake by radio control!

I know it is difficult to tell if it is moving, so you might be able to see something in this short movie (If you get an error message click on your Location/Address box and press <enter>).

15668. CalGal - 2/6/2001 10:23:52 AM

Doc,

Nice job (are you sure you don't want a TV thread?).

I actually meant to watch it last night, but I got stuck at Frys for an hour longer than planned.

15669. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 10:25:44 AM

Those pictures were great, Doc...looks like you guys had a fun time. I've watched Junkyard Wars a couple of times but usually forget it's on til too late. I do that with other shows, too...

15670. DocBrown - 2/6/2001 10:29:26 AM

(Some browsers get a "Page not available message." Follow the instruction above).

The movie shows the hovercraft slowing to a stop and hovering. If you look closely at the end you can see that the driver turns the rudder for a pivoting maneuver.

I refereed the challenge, so I am not the driver.

All the participants said that this was a very fun theme party! It gets my highest recommendation.

15671. DocBrown - 2/6/2001 10:47:40 AM

Thank you for the encouragement, ladies.

Because my dining room table was not big enough for a human-bearing vehicle, the hovercraft was built to carry one of these tiny TV camera/transmitter units.


That camera shot this movie (same instruction). It shows the hovercraft's eye view of liftoff and a short cruise in my junk-filled dining room.

15672. ButterfieldSwire - 2/6/2001 10:50:34 AM

1. Rear Window
2. Notorious
3. NxNW
4. Psycho
5. Shadow of a Doubt

Rear Window and Notorious are virtually flawless. NxNW is super-cool but too facetious to be a great movie. The psychobabble at the end of Psycho and the too easy ending of Shadow of a Doubt nock a quarter grade off these two.

Of course, a lot of really good Hitchcock movies are ruined by the ridiculous endings; Strangers on a Train and The Lady Vanishes are the classic examples. The remake of The Man Who Knew Too Much on the other hand is too ridiculous from start to finish. Both Jimmy Stewart and Doris Day seem like they were drunk or on downers or something, both as actors and characters, throughout the movie. The plotting is so implausible, that somewhere near the end (following the church scene), Jimmy Stewart guesses without reason, the exact building where in the city his child is being held. Que Sera Sera is kind of good though.

15673. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:03:50 AM

You know, I just never thought the ridiculous train fight was all that terrible in TLV. Maybe because it was so much in tune with the generally lighthearted tone of the movie. The two cricket chaps just kept me laughing throughout. Now that everyone mentions it, I'll probably have to grudgingly agree that it is out of synch. But it's still got some great bits.

The idiotic ending of Strangers is much more out of tune with the rest of the movie, and it has always bothered me.

I agree about the psychobabble of Psycho, and that is a good point about the facetiousness of NbyNW--one never believes that everyone is quite serious about it.

Have you seen the original MWKTM?

15674. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:05:45 AM

But I have to disagree about Que Sera. I am a great Doris fan, but I would have taken an axe to her if she'd sung that song one more time.

15675. rubberducky - 2/6/2001 11:09:48 AM

thanks Doc, good stuff

i tried to watch Junkyard Wars last night and thought it was boring as hell even if i really like the concept.

maybe because i tuned in during the building of the thing, but what a yawner.

15676. PsychProf - 2/6/2001 11:10:01 AM

My late father-in-law, in broken English, sang that song on a daily basis.

15677. Indiana Jones - 2/6/2001 11:15:41 AM

Butterfield: I thought of Shadow of a Doubt when someone mentioned The Lady Vanishes as having the most ridiculous ending.

And is it The Foreign Correspondent that has the silly little hit man whose specialty is pushing people off of things? The scene where he "pounces" is pretty lame too.

15678. DocBrown - 2/6/2001 11:18:33 AM

Rubberducky,

Currently TLC is showing the very earliest episodes of Scrapheap Challenge relabeled as Junkyard Wars. Sadly, these installments have primitive production quality. The show got much better by the third season, which in many ways is superior even to the latest all-American episodes.

I hope they will reshow the more recent projects later this year.

Tonight at 10 on Comedy Central, Battlebots quarterfinals go to a full hour!

Battlebots would be the perfect show, if they would just concentrate on the "robots" and drop the professional wrestling facade.

15679. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 11:21:37 AM

All criticisms about the psychobabble at the end of Psycho are valid, but I still think it is Hitchcock's best film. 5 minutes of Freudian determinism don't ruin the film or its characters. Instead, it is just another example of all the times in classic old films that some voice of authority has to sternly announce the moral of the film, and stops the film dead in its tracks. (Scarface, Asphalt Jungle, Crossfire, Seven Days in May, etc.) It is unnecessary and simplistic, but the rest of the film works perfectly so I put up with it.

15680. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:22:07 AM

I think he only did it once. What I like about Foreign Correspondent is:

• The cleverness of the windmill clue
• Its originality (I believe) in the "swap out the real politician for a phony" plot device
• The fact that the hero, the villain, and the second banana are all a great deal of fun. (Only Notorious has a more sympathetic villain).
• The sweetness of the old politician, and the brutality of his torture scene
• Great early plane crash
• The way in which they got the story out.

15681. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 11:23:43 AM

The facetiousness of NxNW is part of its charm. It is a lighthearted romantic adventure story.

Hitchcock's best ending, for my money, is Notorious. It is the only time I recall that he really stuck the dismount.

15682. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 11:26:16 AM

Strangers on the Train has a silly action climax, but the rest of it is okay.

Spellbound had another nice ending. I also have a fondness for the ending to The Birds.

15683. Indiana Jones - 2/6/2001 11:27:15 AM

The windmill scene is rather striking and original. Hitchcock liked to use the contrast between a long flat object and a projection above it in his shots for effect (cf. the Bates Motel and the Bates mansion).

I have a copy of Truffault's book and, while it was written before all Hitchcock's films were in the can, recommend it.

15684. Indiana Jones - 2/6/2001 11:29:57 AM

The endings of The Birds and Notorious are somewhat similar (the hero runs the "gauntlet" with the heroine), so if you like one I guess you'd like the other. But The Birds doesn't have Claude Rains being "invited" back into the house for a little discussion!

15685. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:31:05 AM

I agree that Notorious is a fantastic ending, primarily because of the sympathy that has been built up for Claude Rains.

Many of the endings that aren't ridiculous have that "rushed" feeling. The climactic moment, the bad guy's attempt to get free, the information needed to close everything off, and the guy gets the girl all in the last two minutes. Rear Window fixes this with the final scene, where you see what happens to everyone and watch Kelly having and eating cake.

15686. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:33:11 AM

You know, I keep forgetting about The Birds because we were originally discussing his 40s-50s movies. I have watched it again recently, and it really is quite good. It's far more enjoyable than Rebecca and Vertigo, even with Tippi.

15687. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 11:35:18 AM

My gripe with Rear Window has to do with Raymond Burr's inability to figure out that he should shield his eyes from the fucking flashbulb, and Stewart's refusal to cry out for help until he is half way out the window. The epilogue is fine, however.

Indy: I see your point about the gauntlet, but Notorious has a very conclusive ending, and Birds is about as inconclusive as you can get.

15688. ButterfieldSwire - 2/6/2001 11:38:37 AM

The train accident of Shadow is silly because it too conveniently provides a happy ending, but it is plausible, if not likely. But in Strangers, a merry-go-round somehow accelerates 10 fold and becomes a death trap. The endings of these movies have one of two different problems. In Shadow, the plot developed as such that by the end of the movie, the only way to deliver a happy resolution for the protaganist was for some incredibly unlikely, lucky break to occur. But the lucky break, that occured was not so unrealistic as to be unbelievable. In Strangers, the plot in no way required a ridiculous or even unlikely ending in order to supply a decent resolution. The movie was in fact, perfectly good, until the very end when Hitch imposed a completely unbelievable but photogenic final scene.

[SPOILER]

The ending of The Lady combines both these problems. The initial setup was very suspenseful, but the plot ended up with a train load of middle aged English ladies and gentlemen in a train car trying to shoot their way out of a fascist Central European country. They escape their predicament by sneaking out the back door (thats usin the old bean, eh waht).

15689. Indiana Jones - 2/6/2001 11:43:49 AM

Cal: I'm not so sure Rains' character (is his name Phillip?) has built up a lot of sympathy--other than what's inherent for Rains as a screen personality. There's something about Claude Rains that I'll agree makes his characters more sympathetic (at least to me).

Many of the endings that aren't ridiculous have that "rushed" feeling.

Yep.

Butterfield: Even before the ending, it was getting a little creaky with Cotten's murder attempts. Sawing a step and the complicated asphyxiation scheme weren't exactly slick.

15690. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:46:53 AM

Burr is in shock--it's not like he started the day, or even the evening, planning to enter a guy's house and kill him. So he's already operating by the seat of his pants and...what the fuck is this light? I could see that.

Stewart's failure to call for help is more problematic--the only reason that makes sense is that he's been so involved in watching, as if he isn't really involved with it, that it doesn't occur to him that no, this is reality now. You're not watching, you're in it.

I don't think this case was made well enough, though. I found it even more bothersome that he and Ritter didn't call out when Kelly was in danger.

15691. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 11:46:54 AM

Butter: nice analysis.

15692. ButterfieldSwire - 2/6/2001 11:48:02 AM

Spellbound is kitsch. Enjoyable in the same way the Freudian psychobabble in Psycho is enjoyable, but not really good.

The ending of Psycho isnt really a problem, I think. Psycho is a great movie. It just doesnt rank as high as Rear Window and Notorious, because the because the best characters in those movies are real and complex people, while the best character in Psycho is a contrived lunatic. Scary, but not interesting.

The opposite criticism applies to NxNW. A great movie. Roger Thornhill is the archetype of cool, but not as interesting as the characters in Notorious or Rear.

15693. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:51:11 AM

Indiana,

I agree that Rains (and Marshall, in FC) have a reservoir of good will because of other performances.

15694. Indiana Jones - 2/6/2001 11:51:19 AM

Spellbound was probably the most disappointing for me (just had higher expectations). For one thing, I figured it out almost immediately, but that may have been helped by having seen High Anxiety.

15695. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 11:53:17 AM

Cal: I think the "stuck in observation mode" explains their silence while Kelly is attacked, but doesn't explain Stewart's actions at the end. After all, he *is* taking action with the flash, and he eventually *does* call for help. I still love Rear Window (along with Strangers and Shadow), but it does provide examples of Hitchcock's problem with endings.

North by Northwest is an interesting one. It is an incredibly tight bit of screenwriting, and the final edit between rushmore and the train car is wonderful, but it does involve a clumsy deus ex machina, where Landau is suddenly shot from behind by the CIA agent, and we have no idea why the agent was there. In fact, he has every reason *not* to be.

15696. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:54:54 AM

Butter,

I agree, that's a great analysis. I just don't find it as much of a problem in TLV because it's a comedy. In Strangers, it is unforgiveable. I've watched it in a theater, and when the cops shoot the operator, the audience burst out laughing.

15697. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 11:56:21 AM

Spellbound isn't great (the psychobabble problem in Pyscho is increased 10 fold, but at least it isn't Marnie, where the entire fucking movie is unsuspenseful psychobabble), but I do like the ending.

But Norman is much more than a contrived lunatic. He is at least as real and complex as any other Hitchcock character.

15698. CalGal - 2/6/2001 12:00:20 PM

Rask,

I hear what you are saying, and I agree that it's a flaw. I think that Stewart is still stuck in observer mode, still has the need to be silent. He could have picked up the phone and called the cops, yelled out the window, all sorts of things.

But Hitchcock depends on the audience buying into his need for quiet--for not getting "caught" for watching. And of course, it works. I saw the movie some 10 times (as a teenager) before I thought, why the hell doesn't he just scream for help?

15699. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 12:00:25 PM

"I agree, that's a great analysis. I just don't find it as much of a problem in TLV because it's a comedy."

But the ending to TLV isn't funny, so its tone is completely wrong. I'll grant you that I am cutting some of Hitchcock's other films quite a bit of slack, despite script problems, but I think their problems were less severe (the ridiculousness of the carousel scene isn't as long as the standoff in TLV, for instance), and the rest of TLV just isn't as strong in comparison to the better Hitchcock films.

15700. CalGal - 2/6/2001 12:02:04 PM

I agree that Norman is real enough. But the reason Hitchcock can kill everyone off in that movie is because there's no one to give a damn about--and that keeps Psycho off the list of top three, for me. There's no one to like.

15701. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 12:02:33 PM

Cal: Rear Window's problems aren't nearly as bad as those in Strangers of a Train, so I am really just quibbling.

And I hate the ending to Vertigo. "Eeek! a Nun! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

15702. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 12:04:40 PM

I disagree on Psycho. I liked both Janet Leigh and Martin Balsam, which is crucial considering that they are the only murders we see (kill off everyone in the damn movie? what are you talking about?).

15703. CalGal - 2/6/2001 12:06:32 PM

Rask,

I'm not sure what you mean about the ending not being in keeping with a comedy. But perhaps "comedy" is overstated on my part. It is a lighthearted action adventure film and, while I agree in retrospect that the shootout is absurd (and I can't tell you how sad I am to have to realize it), I don't see it as a tone break--not a fatal one, in any event.

Keep in mind that I'm not claiming "great" status for TLV. I agree that it isn't as good as 39 Steps. But it is extremely enjoyable, very funny throughout, has an excellent performance by Redgrave, and given a choice between spending two hours with that movie or Vertigo, there's no contest.

15704. CalGal - 2/6/2001 12:07:12 PM

And I hate the ending to Vertigo. "Eeek! a Nun! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"


Hahahahah. I often have the same feeling myself.

15705. CalGal - 2/6/2001 12:09:15 PM

Rask,

Janet Leigh and Martin Balsam are "everyone" when I'm feeling the need to overstate. I didn't care for either of them, and didn't like Vera Miles or John Gavin much, either.

15706. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 12:11:04 PM

Oh, I would put TLV on a level with Trouble with Harry, Suspicion, Young and Innocent, Saboteur, Rope, To Catch a Thief, and the original Man Who Knew Too Much - worth watching and enjoyable, but nothing you need to rush out and see.

15707. ButterfieldSwire - 2/6/2001 12:11:28 PM

Raskolnikov: Despite the Oscars, I think mentally stunted characters are always less interesting than well drawn, intelligent characters. Norman Bates is about as interesting as Jason Voorhees. Cary Grant, Ingrid Bergman, Jimmy Stewart and Grace Kelly are more interesting than Jason, I guess.

CalGal: Was TLV a comedy? I thought the original suspense was pretty good, thats why the ending seemed such a cheat. Strangers actually delivered on its original suspense.

Ever seen Suspicion with Cary Grant and Joan Fontaine. Its a weird movie to criticize. There is a movie where Hitch so enjoyed delivering the suspense, that there was nothing else besides the suspense. The resolution lasts 30 seconds and out. Still, you cant say that Hitchcock cheated you because the ending is realistic and logically consistent.

15708. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 12:16:27 PM

Butter: a comparison between Norman and Jason is silly. We don't even know Norman is "mentally stunted" until the very end. Before that, he comes across as a very sympathetic, conflicted character, and Perkins did it well. He had to, as Norman has to carry most of the last half of the film.

15709. ButterfieldSwire - 2/6/2001 12:16:37 PM

Janet Leigh is really good in Psycho. She was the most interesting character in the movie. [SPOILER] but she dies at the end of the first reel.

15710. CalGal - 2/6/2001 12:16:44 PM

Suspicion did have a rewritten ending, is that what you are referring to?

As far as TLV being a comedy--as I said, maybe that was the wrong term. I just meant that it is far lighter in tone than Strangers, with a nice touch of the absurd throughout. So I'm more likely to cut it some slack if it gets unbelievable.

Rask--I like TLV much better than all the movies you mention except TMWKTM, which I think is not as good, but certainly not bad enough to be lumped in with that group.

15711. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 12:19:46 PM

Suspicion's chief problem isn't its ending, in my opinion. It is that the film is so repetitive: My husband is trying to kill me! Whew, he isn't. Yes he is! Whew, he isn't!...

It is a 1940s Joe Esterhaz script.

Additionally, I had trouble relating to any woman who allowed herself to be called "Monkey Face" as a term of endearment.

15712. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 12:21:32 PM

Perkins takes over for Leigh, and I think he does so very successfully.

15713. Indiana Jones - 2/6/2001 12:22:31 PM

Suspicion is one I've apparently missed--at least doesn't ring any bells. Worth a watch?

15714. ButterfieldSwire - 2/6/2001 12:22:47 PM

Rask: Sure, the comparison between Norman Bates and Jason is overdrawn , but the comparison of the conflict between being a shy, sweet hotel clerk and a human taxidermist with Grant's (in Notorious) conflict between being the ruthless, patriotic agent and a jealous lover seems even more silly.

15715. CalGal - 2/6/2001 12:25:14 PM

Suspicion's main problem, for me, is the same one that plagues Rebecca: Joan Fontaine. Ick.

15716. CalGal - 2/6/2001 12:26:02 PM

Indy,

It's the one where Joan Fontaine thinks her husband might have married her for her money? God knows, it's the only reason anyone would marry her.

15717. Raskolnikov - 2/6/2001 12:37:09 PM

"Rask: Sure, the comparison between Norman Bates and Jason is
overdrawn , but the comparison of the conflict between being a shy,
sweet hotel clerk and a human taxidermist with Grant's (in Notorious) conflict between being the ruthless, patriotic agent and a jealous lover seems even more silly."

That is a false description of Norman's conflict. He is conflicted between his love of his mother, his own morality, and his own sanity.

15718. wonkers2 - 2/6/2001 4:03:00 PM

Cal, you don't like Vera Miles? She was one of the sexiest actresses of her generation. See, for example, her role opposite Kris Kristofferson in "The Sailor Who Fell From Grace With the Sea."

15719. CalGal - 2/6/2001 4:09:56 PM

That wasn't Vera Miles, that was Sara Miles.

15720. glendajean - 2/6/2001 4:26:36 PM

Wasn't Vera Miles in the Disney Boy Scout Flick "Follow Me, Boys" with Fred McMurray?

15721. OhioSTOPAS - 2/6/2001 4:32:06 PM

And Old Yeller?

15722. CalGal - 2/6/2001 4:35:32 PM

Yes, she was in Follow Me, Boys. Also a neat little movie with Van Johnson, 23 Paces to Baker Street.

Dorothy McGuire was in Old Yeller.

15723. Cellar Door - 2/6/2001 4:38:00 PM

One of my favorite Insane Rumors was that Dorthy Maguire had opened an S&M shop in the Valley called "Dorothy Maguire's No Pity."

15724. wonkers2 - 2/6/2001 4:44:43 PM

Oops! My mistake!

15725. CalGal - 2/6/2001 4:51:24 PM

I agree with you about Sara Miles, btw. She hasn't done much lately, but I first saw her in The Man Who Loved Cat Dancing and thought she was just incredibly cool.

15726. glendajean - 2/6/2001 5:29:05 PM

Celler -- as a young kid, I bawled my eyes out at Old Yellar. To this day, I am still jumpy at movies where dogs die.

15727. OhioSTOPAS - 2/6/2001 5:32:48 PM

Good thing that in all movies, regardless of what disaster befalls the human characters, the dog somehow makes it.

15728. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 5:32:57 PM

I can't even watch those reports on the news about bad conditions at the pound or horror stories about some batty old dame trying to care for 100 strays...

15729. CalGal - 2/7/2001 3:01:29 AM

I was just watching the AMC special on Richard Rogers and discovered that Frank Sinatra had originally been cast as the lead in Carousel and then had some spat and left the role to McRae.

Lordy, there's a tragedy for you.

15730. KuligintheHooligan - 2/7/2001 7:35:16 AM

CalGal,

An ER question for you. On a cable "station" in South Africa they were playing ER last year. The year ended with the Margolis chick running off to see her 'soul mate,' Clooney, who I knew had left the show some years ago. That was the last episode we saw of ER. My wife likes the show, but we didn't know what year that episode was in, did Margolis leave the show or go back to Chicago after seeing her lover boy, etc. Could you give me a quickie update? Thanks.

15731. AceofSpades - 2/7/2001 7:59:09 AM

"My wife likes the show, but we didn't know what year that episode was in, did Margolis leave the show or go back to Chicago after seeing her lover boy, etc. Could you give me a quickie update? Thanks."

Update:

A secondary character was killed, and the Noah Wylie character badly injured, by a crazy homeless man wielding a knife.

Noah Wylie began using various drugs -- stealing from the hospital's staff of morphine and such -- due to this event. Ultimately he was caught using by Abby, a new character. He was confronted and sent to a detox clinic.

He remains suspected by the staff, especially the chick with the crutch. He may or may still be using. (In a recent episode, he *almost* swiped a patient's pain-relief medication. Or rather, he DID swipe the medication, and took it, but then he forced himself to vomit.)

Other big plot lines:

Dr Green got a malignant brain tumor. He went through surgery, and it was successfully removed.

Dr Kovac -- the hunky East European replacement for Clooney -- is now dating Abby.

The Australian chick and Dr. Green are getting married. The australian chick botched a spinal surgery and nearly paralyzed the man; she's now being sued big-time for malpractice, and is apparently avoiding any difficult surgeries.

The hospital has taken heat for not hiring enough blacks, so Dr. Ray Romano (the short, bald prick that I Love) cynically appointed the black doctor to be some sort of Affirmative Action Community Liason officer.


That's pretty much the update on continuing plotlines. And no, Margolis never returned.

15732. KuligintheHooligan - 2/7/2001 10:21:31 AM

Ace, great, thanks for the update!!

15733. Francis Urquhart - 2/7/2001 10:59:34 AM

I saw O Brother Where Art Thou, which was very amusing. There is not much to say. Everybody is funny, the Cohen Brothers are skilled, I chuckled throughout, and, like all Cohen films (save Fargo), it had absolutely no heart. They are great technicians and they make great human cartoons.

I also saw The Kid, which was execrable. It may have gotten better, but after 30 minutes of Bruce Willis emoting an emotional breakdown (Daddy didn't love him, they moved too much, he was a chubster as a child) in front of a nasty, grubby, unpleasant, snot-nosed boy (the child is Willis, as an eight-year old, who has come to visit Willis as an adult, through some sort of Disney magic), I turned it off.

15734. CalGal - 2/7/2001 11:06:31 AM

Fargo had heart?

Naw. I think Raising Arizona and O Brother have more heart, if tucked in around the edges, than Fargo does.

15735. DanDillon - 2/7/2001 11:26:19 AM

The music alone in O Brother gives the film heart. If you can't see/hear that, you may as well poke your other eye out and start selling Bibles.

15736. CalGal - 2/7/2001 11:45:50 AM

The music was beautiful. The two sidekicks did their own singing, did you know? Clooney worked hard at his voice, but they all decided he needed to be dubbed.

Clooney was superb. I think he may pull off a best actor nomination.

15737. Raskolnikov - 2/7/2001 12:44:33 PM

O Brother is the film I use to prove that the Coen's really do have heart. They obviously cared about the characters.

15738. Francis Urquhart - 2/7/2001 12:51:20 PM

To the extent Wile E. Coyote was "cared for" because he never actually succumbed due to the crush of an anvil, I agree.

15739. CalGal - 2/7/2001 12:55:22 PM

Hardly. There was tremendous affection for the three leads.

But then, anyone who thinks that Fargo is demonstrative of heart clearly has a different definition.

15740. Shannon - 2/7/2001 2:25:13 PM

Minor ER correction: The crazy knife-wielding guy wasn't homeless. He was a law school student who came in because of headaches. His wife showed up after he'd done the stabbings, expecting to find hubby being treated for a migraine or something, only to find out that he had run off after stabbing 2 people. Was she pregnant, or am I confused?

15741. Francis Urquhart - 2/7/2001 2:25:54 PM

Cal

There is tremedous affection for Wile E. Coyote, but he is still smashed with anvils, much as Clooney and gang were thrown off of trains, bruned out of barns, beaten with a branch, screamed at, bossed around etc . . . It was a cartoon, and a pretty good one at that.

15742. CalGal - 2/7/2001 3:14:18 PM

She wasn't pregnant, and the chick with the crutch is now having an affair with the woman who played the mom in Frequency, from what I hear.

Margulies' departure was during the May sweeps of last year but I don't think it was the season closer--that was Benton and Carter flying to Atlanta.

15743. CalGal - 2/7/2001 3:14:57 PM

Francis,

If you agree that the characters were cared for, then I am unsure why you say the film has no heart.

15744. glendajean - 2/7/2001 3:23:08 PM

ER addendum: Dr. Kovac also killed somebody who tried to mug him and Abby. There are hints that he's a walking time bomb, but he won't open up about whatever hard secrets he holds in his heart.

Kerry, the chick with the crutches, has started an affair with the a female psychiatrist.

The Australian surgeon is actually British.

The bald actor who plays Robert Romano, the prick chief of surgery, played a frizzy haired student in the tv series, Fame.

15745. glendajean - 2/7/2001 3:24:17 PM

Sorry, Cal. I answered a phone call and didn't refresh. Sorry for the redundancy.

15746. AceofSpades - 2/7/2001 3:28:11 PM

" Dr. Kovac also killed somebody who tried to mug him and Abby."

Oh yeah. I didn't see this one, but my girlfriend told me about it. I was angry that I had missed it, since it involved two things I like: 1) Dr Kovac and 2) citizens killing criminals.

"Kerry, the chick with the crutches, has started an affair with the a female psychiatrist. "

The less said the better, here. This is a good news/bad news sort of joke, like, "The good news is the new AG is a lesbian... the bad news is she's Janet Reno."

Kerry (or Skullface Crutch Woman, as I call her) is hiddeous to look at, and a boring character, and she's only interesting when she's being incredibly bitchy. I don't want to see her in a lesbian affair. Or any affair, really.

Her last affair was with The Cossack from Highlander. Ye gods.

"The Australian surgeon is actually British."

Huh? I think you're wrong. She's from Australia. She says so.

"The bald actor who plays Robert Romano, the prick chief of surgery, played a frizzy haired student in the tv series, Fame."

He plays a lot of damn roles.

15747. CalGal - 2/7/2001 3:32:32 PM

He was Pete Conrad in the Earth to the Moon series, too. I like him a lot. ER has definitely jumped the shark, for me, although it seems able to put together a good show periodically, unlike NYPD Blue, which is gone forever.

Judging Amy is actually enjoyable. I worry about what this means. Where is the Homicide of yesteryear, she cries.

15748. Indiana Jones - 2/7/2001 3:33:10 PM

Kerry fits the character trend Frankie was talking about the other day. She started out as a perfectly good villain, and after a while they had to give her "depth and humanity."

So then they brought in Romano to have a real villain again.

15749. Raskolnikov - 2/7/2001 3:34:44 PM

Francie: Wile E Coyote never gets the Roadrunner. The characters in O Brother *do* get their roadrunner, although it wasn't the roadrunner they thought they were looking for. Their trials were the suffering they faced on the road to redemption, which they eventually earned. That is one key difference between a movie with heart and a cartoon.

15750. AceofSpades - 2/7/2001 3:37:58 PM

Is anyone a fan of John Carpenter's The Thing?

If you are, this is sort of funny:

I rented it on DVD recently, and I noticed the actor who played Fuchs looked awfully familiar. Maddeningly familiar.

Turns out, he's the guy with whom George Costanza got into an insult contest -- the "Jerkstore" episode.

15751. glendajean - 2/7/2001 3:38:25 PM

From the NBC ER web site:

ALEX KINGSTON: Dr. Elizabeth Corday
Alex Kingston, who won acclaim in the title role of the PBS miniseries "Moll Flanders," joined television's top-rated series, "ER," during its fourth season (1997-98), as the spirited British surgeon, Dr. Elizabeth Corday.

15752. Raskolnikov - 2/7/2001 3:38:34 PM

"Her last affair was with The Cossack from Highlander. Ye gods. "

hee hee. I have similar problems whenever I see Clancy Brown. He pops into Denzel Washington's prison cell in "Hurricane" and I half-expect to hear him say "Tonight, you sleep in hell! The time for the Quickening is at hand!"

15753. CalGal - 2/7/2001 3:40:50 PM

I love that movie. Joel Polis is Fuchs. I thought he was the owner of the bar that Cheers always fought with.

15754. AceofSpades - 2/7/2001 4:24:13 PM

Cal,

He is that as well.

15755. AceofSpades - 2/7/2001 4:25:04 PM

GJ,

Well, they would know, wouldn't they? But Corday must have done her residency in Sidney or something. It cannot be that I have created this "Australia thing" out of whole cloth.

15756. rubberducky - 2/8/2001 8:58:10 AM

Ha!

got bit of trivia, Ace

15757. Cellar Door - 2/8/2001 10:37:03 AM

Nico and Dani.

15758. rubberducky - 2/8/2001 10:43:05 AM

great review, CD

probably yet another film to put on my list even though i doubt i'll get to watch it

15759. Cellar Door - 2/8/2001 10:43:48 AM

"Hannibal" resembles nothing so much as a gigantic Christmas display window at Neiman's whose theme is "Get the Best for the Really Special Serial-Killer in You Life."

There is no script. There is no action. There are no characters. Just figures in fairly limited motion against beautiful lit backgrounds.



And they have the nerve to create a set-up for a sequel!

15760. glendajean - 2/8/2001 11:33:56 AM

Ace,

The guy whose spine was screwed up by Corday was an Australian surfer.

Last season, Corday's mom, a British professor, came and had a brief fling with Mark Green's father. Lynn Redgrave played her mom.

Cellar,

Isn't that called a franchise?

15761. Fielding - 2/8/2001 11:37:01 AM

The House of Mirth

This faithful adaptation of the Edith Wharton novel engages more on an intellectual level than on an emotional one. Although well-acted, The House of Mirth features period costumes, flower arrangements, opera music, garden walks and much discussion of hats. The highlight of the film is a close-up of raindrops hitting water. In short, The House of Mirth is the anti-Snatch.

Grade: B

15762. glendajean - 2/8/2001 11:37:31 AM

Cellar -- thanks for the great review. I doubt if it will ever make its way to Indianapolis, but if it does, I'll be on the lookout for it. Maybe it will be in DC during my next visit.

15763. glendajean - 2/8/2001 11:38:43 AM

Fielding, how could you do an Edith Wharton novel as a movie and not have in spades the items you mentioned. Wharton loved to tweak the upperclasses, but she loved their gardens and their houses.

15764. Fielding - 2/8/2001 11:39:11 AM

Chocolat

Take an actor from The English Patient, an actor from Shakespeare in Love, and the director of The Cider House Rules, add Johnny Depp and film it in a French village and what do you get? You get another predictable Miramax crowd-pleaser, notable only for its assembly of five of the best actors in the world.

Grade: B-

15765. Fielding - 2/8/2001 11:41:15 AM

GJ:

What you say is true. The problem was proportionality. After the raindrops, I felt like I was being smothered by a giant stuffed animal.

15766. Fielding - 2/8/2001 11:42:24 AM

The Gift

Never has so much talent been wasted on such a modest effort. Very predictible and very silly.

Grade: D

15767. Cellar Door - 2/8/2001 11:44:54 AM

Thanks duck and glkendajean! I think this is a really important film in the way that it deals with truly volatile issues so intelligently, and the respect it has for kid's ability to work things out for themselves sometimes.

15768. AceofSpades - 2/8/2001 11:46:47 AM

"There is no script. There is no action. There are no characters. Just figures in fairly limited motion against beautiful lit backgrounds"

In a Ridley Scott film?!??! GET OUT!!!

15769. ButterfieldSwire - 2/8/2001 11:48:03 AM

Speaking of giant, stuffed animals; does Dale go to the museum with Trigger?

15770. Indiana Jones - 2/8/2001 11:49:46 AM

Old SNL joke: When Dale heard that Roy was having Trigger stuffed and mounted, she expressed a desire for similar treatment. But not necessarily in that order.

15771. AceofSpades - 2/8/2001 12:01:41 PM

Bad SNL joke.

15772. Autodaffy - 2/9/2001 12:21:40 AM

Who told the joke? It doesn't sound like SNL's stuff.

15773. Frankster - 2/9/2001 1:49:36 AM

... The feeling is gone, only you and I
It means nothing to me-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e
This means nothing to me-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e, o-o-o-oh Vienna-a-a-a-a
...


The Fugitive moved up from 80th just three weeks ago, to 57th this last week in the latest TV ratings. Maybe that new time slot will work some wonders after all, huh ?








...Just thought I'd share that. Okay what music web site was I just at ?

15774. joezan - 2/9/2001 7:44:48 AM

Interesting article on Tom Cruise and his publicist.

In 1996, around the time “Mission Impossible” was being released, Cruise was being depicted in the media as a real-life action hero for a series of heroic rescues: he had saved the life of a boy being crushed by his throng of fans and paparazzi, he had come to the aid of a woman who had been hit by a car. In August, Cruise made headlines for saving the lives of a French family whose yacht exploded off the Isle of Capri. Articles and TV segments around the world applauded the actor’s bravery: “No Mission Impossible” declared one newspaper. “Tom Terrific,” proclaimed People magazine. The only problem was — it never happened. While there was an accident, neither Cruise nor anyone on his yacht participated in the rescue in any way, according to a spokesman for the coast guard in Capri, which rescued the family and brought it to safety on the yacht on which the star was sailing. Cruise, according to the coast guard spokesman, never lifted a finger in the actual rescue, The star did, however, visit the victims in the hospital.

When questioned about the story, Kingsley at first praised Cruise’s heroics and courage. “If I’m ever in danger,” she said, “I hope Tom Cruise is around!” When pressed for a specific description of Cruise’s heroism, however, she got vague. And when presented with the coast guard’s official version of events, Kingsley backedoff.

“The press made up the story!” she declared angrily. “They got it wrong!”

And then she added triumphantly:
“They always do.”

15775. JudithAtHome - 2/9/2001 8:46:36 AM

Frank:

It obviously moved up in the rankings because I taped and watched it!

15776. rubberducky - 2/9/2001 8:49:33 AM

i wish the regular SNL show was as funny as the 20 minute clips shown last and this week

except for Weekend Update which is horrible (although the Dr Lecter appearance was good - but that nothing to do with the 2 idiots anchoring)

15777. JudithAtHome - 2/9/2001 9:28:39 AM

I can't stand those two...what happened to Collin? Not that he was very good but I see now he was a riot compared to those two lame-os.

15778. rubberducky - 2/9/2001 9:32:55 AM

Colin Quinn left the show at the end of last season

he was bad compared to Norm and Dennis Miller so maybe he packed it in, i dunno why he left

15779. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 10:01:44 AM

Auto: It was from a long time ago--probably whenever Trigger was put in the museum. Mebbe even Chevy Chase.

The only two things I much like on the current SNL are Darryl Hammond (and they waste him most of the time) and TV Funhouse. Sometimes TVF is flat, but sometimes it's really good, especially the X-Presidents.

I think Hammond does a wonderful Jesse Jackson. It's even better when they don't smear shoe polish on his face and jazz up his hair.

15780. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 10:02:40 AM

Weekend Update is a lost opportunity in my book and has been for years. (Though I do think the current chick is sort of attractive in a "repressed hell kitten" sort of way.)

15781. DocBrown - 2/9/2001 10:06:28 AM

In recent times, Comedy Central's Daily Show headlines have become what Weekend Update once was.

15782. AceofSpades - 2/9/2001 10:11:44 AM

"(Though I do think the current chick is sort of attractive in a "repressed hell kitten" sort of way.)"

Scarface?

Eh, she's an ultra-liberal lesbian. (On the first broadcast, she identified herself as a lesbian for no good reason.)

I respect Tina Fey for her comedy writing -- she's been head writer for like ten years -- but she's not a performer.

15783. AceofSpades - 2/9/2001 10:13:20 AM

Colin Quinn was funny in a whole host of duties -- including his hilarious appearances as "Joe Sixpack" -- but he was a disaster on Weekend Update.

15784. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 10:14:39 AM

Eh, she's an ultra-liberal lesbian. (On the first broadcast, she identified herself as a lesbian for no good reason.)

I did not know that.

So I guess my impression that it with "the right kind of man" she'd shed those Foster Grants and let her hair down is in error.

Unless that right kind of man is a woman.

15785. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 10:15:16 AM

Superfluous "it."

15786. AceofSpades - 2/9/2001 10:19:21 AM

She's got a really scarred-up mouth; you've noticed that, right?

15787. Jenerator - 2/9/2001 10:28:51 AM

I still think SNL's funny. I agree that Daryl Hammond is real talent, and as weird as he is, I really like Will Farrell.

I love the highschool teachers skit.

We've got a hot mic here. Hot mic!

15788. Frankster - 2/9/2001 10:48:03 AM

Judith,

Well, what'd you think of last week's episode ? It might not grab one like the original, but I think the depth of each character makes up for that. It's certainly better TV than a lot of the junk out there, don't ya think ?

... I figured if I got some in here to watch it, that maybe their neighborhood Peeping Tom, who just happens to also be an Arbitron "sampler", would also pick up on it and give it a badly needed rating boost. ;-)

Are you watching tonight ( I think it's on tonight ? ) ?

15789. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 12:24:54 PM

Ace: Dunno. Does she? Maybe it's not the same woman.

Maybe at that time of night I'm half asleep, half "under the weather" and she looks okay.

I mean, it's not like I think she's a knockout or anything, but SNL isn't exactly known for great babes. Jan Hooks was the last one I thought was really sexy.

Though I bet what Molly Shandling lacks in looks she makes up for in technique.

15790. AceofSpades - 2/9/2001 12:29:13 PM

Yes, the right side of her mouth is scarred-up pretty badly. They're the fine, whitish scars which form on someone's face -- less severe than the scars that form on other parts of the body -- but they're there.

Look more closely.

It doesn't make her a "bad person," of course. But it's not very attractive.

15791. Frankster - 2/9/2001 12:29:50 PM

Jan Hooks was the last one I thought was really sexy.

I concur.

15792. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 12:41:29 PM

Scratch what I said about Molly Shandling's technique. I meant "enthusiasm."

Frankster (I sorta miss the extra a's BTW): I thought she was the funniest woman they've had in years, too (though Terry O'Cherry is up there in that area). Very talented. Southern charm.

Plus of course a great rack.

15793. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 12:42:24 PM

Cherry O'Terry, right?

15794. Fielding - 2/9/2001 12:43:06 PM

Ace:

Stretch marks?

15795. AceofSpades - 2/9/2001 12:53:59 PM

Fielding,

No, she said she was a lesbian.

Car accident is more likely.

15796. Frankster - 2/9/2001 12:58:15 PM

Indy,

I'll let the "a"s know they're missed. I've always wanted "Frankster", as in the term, Prankster. The new powers that be took the bribe and made it happen.
Another female comedienne I like a lot -- appearance wise -- is the co-creator of the Daily Show, Liz Winstadt(sp?). That woman's got legs!

15797. AceofSpades - 2/9/2001 1:01:47 PM

And it's Cheri Oteri.

15798. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 1:04:53 PM

Frankster: Never heard of her--or seen her legs--but then no cable.

(Fraaankster always seemed like a greeting you'd give an old friend; you know, "Hey, Fraaaaaankster."

15799. Indiana Jones - 2/9/2001 1:07:37 PM

Ace: I think it's pretty obvious by now that I'm not exactly glued to the set when the current SNL is on.

15800. Frankster - 2/9/2001 1:17:15 PM

Who-o-o-o-ah there! This computer is acting kinda freaky. That G-4 is looking more attractive all the time.

Indy,

Yeah, come to think of it, I do get greeted that way a lot. In my neck of the woods where I grew up, though, I get greeted with either Frank-a-a-a-a-y or some semblance of my given name, which was generally butchered big time as a kid.

Yep, Liz is kind of a cable fly, so you're not likely to catch her on anything network like. Great legs, though. Yummy!

15801. wonkers2 - 2/10/2001 11:02:15 AM

PORN INDUSTRY FEARS ASHCROFT JIHAD

An article in The Nation, Feb 26, says that porn video producers are circling their wagons in fear of a Bush/Ashcroft Jihad against the $10 billion industry which whose profiteers include Ma Bell and General Motors (Hughes Satellite TV). Industry members recall when Reagan's Attorney General, Ed Meese, tried to put them out of business with a major Justice Dept effort. Some of his prosecutors signed their official correspondence, "Yours in Christ."

BACK TO MISSIONARY SEX
In an effort to blunt the expected Ashcroft attack the industry recently adopted a voluntary 24-point code for porn flicks which proscribes, among others, depiction of: female pain or degradation, use of fruits or vegetables as sex objects, "facials," fisting, sex in a coffin, urinating on camera, male-male penetration, black men-white women themes, bisexual encounters, menstruation topics.

15802. wonkers2 - 2/10/2001 11:22:15 AM

The preceding post was adapted/exerpted from an article by Mark Cromer in The Nation Feb 26. I would link it if I knew how. Fascinating article. Made me want to rush over to the local porn video rental while there's still time before they're burned.

15803. Cellar Door - 2/10/2001 11:26:31 AM

The Other Hollywood

15804. ButterfieldSwire - 2/10/2001 11:54:41 AM

Although its easy enough to assume that wonkers is dumb enough to believe the above post, its not as easy to assume that the Nation is that dumb. I mean, just the preposterousness of their being a porn "industry" which might adopt some sort of code because a Republican is named attorney-general; as opposed to the reality of their being about 400 hundred fat, sweaty guys with video cameras in the San Fernando valley who probably couldnt tell you who was vice-president, much less who is attorney-general.

On the other hand, I like wonkers priorities. He's worried that the current, puritan climate might prevent the production of lesbian videos. As much as I would hate to live in an Amerikkka in which you couldn't get lesbian videos, somehow I think hes exaggerating the danger.

15805. wonkers2 - 2/10/2001 12:37:09 PM

BS, Did you read the article? I found it amusing. It seemed factual enough to me. The article did express skepticism about compliance with the proposed code. I don't believe the code said anything, one way or the other, about lesbian videos. Try reading my post again, or better, read the article for the full story.

15806. ButterfieldSwire - 2/10/2001 12:46:24 PM

Honestly, wonk, I havent seen a porn video in 10 years, but even I know there is no such thing as the porn "industry". Its preposterous to imagine that the porn "industry" has come together like GM, Ford, and Chrysler to adopt some voluntary code.

Your code said the "porn industry" had decided to avoid bisexual videos, but since ALL porn videos portray women having sex with both women and men its hard to see how this could be true.

15807. wonkers2 - 2/10/2001 1:02:14 PM

Read the article. Cromer, who wrote it, says he produced the "Jail Babes" series of porn videos for Larry Flynt. Apparently he and other major directors/producers have been handed a list of things not to include in their videos in an effort to avoid being shut down by the new Justice Department. The article made no connection with General Motors or AT&T other than to point out that they are big distributors of porn videos and that big money is involved. The article was intended to be humorous but factual as well. I don't know enough about the industry to separate truth from humor. I did read a recent front-page NYT article about a first amendment case in Salt Lake City where the porn video store owner was acquitted after his attorney showed the jury similar tapes offered by the nearby Marriott Hotel. The article went on to point out that the videos are big business. GM Hughes Satellite TV grosses $200 million a year on porn movies and ATT Cable is a close second in the distribution of porn videos. With that kind of money involved it strikes me as perfectly plausible that the big producers and retailers and their lawyers are worried about what Ashcroft will try to do to their business.

15808. Francis Urquhart - 2/10/2001 1:14:45 PM

Dr. T and the Women

Robert Altman makes some very good films ("The Player", "Cookie's Fortune"), but of late, he mostly makes bad films. Dr. T and the Women is one such bad film. Basically, it is the cast of Steel Magnolias (i.e., familiar faces playing drag queens, though not from Georgia, but rather, from Dallas), except, Altman does not suffice to make upper crust Dallas women grotesque - he also makes them evil. Dr. T (Richard Gere) is an OB-GYN who has a thriving practice, but his wife (Farrah Fawcett) has gone nuts because, get this, he loves her too much. So, he institutonalizes her, fools around with assistant golf pro Helen Hunt, and otherwise weathers all the crazy, neurotic, psychotic, alcohlic, pining, cloying, clawing, menstruating, sapphic women in his life (played by Kate Hudosn, Liv Tyler, Laura Dern, Shelly Long, Janine Turner, Lee Grant and a gaggle of other familiar female faces, all ghastly).

It would have been more honest were it titled "Fuckin' Bitches: Can't Live with Them, Can't Kill Them." All done in a pleasant, sunny, and ultimate boring way. Grade: F.

15809. CalGal - 2/10/2001 1:18:43 PM

I've always wondered how anyone could argue against the "Altman is a misogynist" line.

15810. Cellar Door - 2/10/2001 3:31:49 PM

You rang?

15811. CalGal - 2/10/2001 4:17:56 PM

Yeah, but you're a misogynist too. So there!

Seriously, I've argued this before--maybe I should just hunt up my old posts. But Altman is very cruel to women, even when he is supposedly providing an actor with a great role.

15812. Cellar Door - 2/10/2001 4:34:52 PM

And FU can be cruel to women, even when he is supposedly providing them with a great roll in the hay!

15813. Fielding - 2/11/2001 12:24:12 AM

Altman is a great director.

Altman is a raving misogynist.

Both statements are true, and not contradictory.

And I agree with FU's other point. Altman's catalogue since Short Cuts has been very weak.

15814. Fielding - 2/11/2001 1:39:51 AM

Has anybody seen The Pledge? I saw it tonight, and just read 90 reviews on imdb, and it still makes no sense. It is either a horribly flawed movie with great acting and a few intriguing ideas, or I'm just dense (or both).

15815. CalGal - 2/11/2001 3:48:46 PM

I agree that they aren't contradictory, although the only one of Altman's pictures that I have truly enjoyed is M*A*S*H. I think McCabe & Mrs. Miller is a good movie, but I'd rather pull out three teeth than watch it again or listen to that excrutiating song.

15816. Indiana Jones - 2/11/2001 6:33:24 PM

Rented The 13th Warrior and Made for Each Other.

13th stars Antonio Banderas as a Middle Ages Arab who goes along for the ride when a bunch of Vikings are called back up North to save a village. (Now you may think that this is historically inaccurate--that the Vikings were never bopping around Arabia--but I think it actually happened, or at least they made it to Turkey IIRC. OTOH, whether you'd send all the way to the Middle East to get 12 Vikings to help a village at the top of Europe is another matter. Wasn't Hagar the Horrible any closer?)

Actually, the film is sort of a cross-pollinated-production between The Seven Samurai and a myth probably familiar to every Motier. I won't say what the myth is, but I'm guessing you'll figure it out if you watch the movie, even though 13th manages to twist the myth almost beyond recognition in an effort to explain how real-life events could become mythic (I think).

Ultimately, 13th reinforces my opinion that Michael Crichton doesn't have an original bone in his body. He picks a motiff from this, a camera angle from that, and voila, Crichton creation. I of course don't know how much he's really responsible for what shows up on film, but none of the work that bears his name ever seems particularly original to me and always has the feel of stitched-together quilting.

So anyways, if you like a manly story of hack and slay with medium level gore but characters not likely to warrant a sequel (or even individual names, for that matter), 13th is tolerable. Zorro, however, was several times better than this.

15817. JudithAtHome - 2/11/2001 6:47:21 PM

Don't know if anyone but me and Glendajean are interested but Monday and Tuesday nights are the Westminster Dog Show on the USA Network! 7-10pm CST, both nights.

15818. JudithAtHome - 2/11/2001 6:49:18 PM

Okay..make that "Glendajean and I"...hey, I'm tired, all right?

15819. Indiana Jones - 2/11/2001 6:52:35 PM

Made for Each Other is a Selznick production starring James Stewart and Carole Lombard, circa 1940.

I had high hopes for the movie given the cast, and the first half of it was okay, if difficult at times. Personally, I don't enjoy domestic troubles and the threat of middle class financial ruin in comedies--and this was supposed to be a comedy, I think. Just me, I know, but I'd rather see a film about someone losing everything on one roll of the dice at Las Vegas than a picture about a family getting further behind every month on a light bill. The latter is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me to watch, especially if I care about the characters.

So the first half Lombard and Stewart go from newly wed bliss to gradual disillusionment, bickering, and financial struggle. Stewart must fight the old battles of balancing in-laws and wife, wife and job. Because it was Stewart and Lombard, I sat through this unpleasant fare only to see the second half turn into a storyline worthy of Mystery Science Fiction Theater 3000.

Without giving everything away, I'll just say the "new" plot centers on efforts to bring to New York City a miracle serum from its only available location: northern Utah (famous in the 1930s as a Mecca of medical research) by open-top biplane in the worst blizzard ever to engulf the entire continental United States. Lombard and Stewart disappear except for a few obligatory shots of nail-biting and hair-pulling in between many spinning newspaper headlines (though apparently the entire plane trip takes place in one night).

Bad movie.

15820. CalGal - 2/11/2001 6:55:15 PM

No, I think it is "me". You wouldn't say "Don't know if anyone but I is interested..."

15821. CalGal - 2/11/2001 6:56:59 PM

Oh, that Made for Each Other. Yes, it sucks. I was misled by the cast the first time I saw it, too.

15822. joezan - 2/11/2001 11:03:19 PM

Indy:

The 13th Warrior was commented on extensively - I thought you were around then - maybe on hiatus?

You'd probably find the discussion pretty interesting (in part because I had nothing to say) if it's in Cal's reviews. Many of your points were made, and expanded upon.

BTW - I thought it was pretty good.

15823. CalGal - 2/12/2001 1:34:52 AM

XFL Ratings down 50%

Joe--I can't find the 13th Warrior on my site, which is odd. It was there; I've been converting a lot of files. I'll hunt it down.

15824. Francis Urquhart - 2/12/2001 8:59:23 AM

The Academy Award Nominations come out tomorrow. Here are my nominees:

BEST PICTURE
High Fidelity
The Tao of Steve
Croupier
You Can Count On Me
Almost Famous

WORST SEVEN
Gone in 60 Seconds
Me, Myself and Irene
The Kid
The Scottish Tale
Waking the Dead
The Patriot
Dr. T and the Women

BEST ACTOR
Clive Owen -Croupier
Patrick Fugit - Almost Famous
Tom Hanks - Castaway
Giovanni Ribisi - Boiler Room
Mike White - Chuck and Buck

BEST ACTRESS
Edie Falco - Judy Berlin
Michelle Pfeiffer - What Lies Beneath
Laura Linney - You Can Count On Me
Brenda Blethyn - Saving Grace

BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR
Philip Seymour Hoffman - Almost Famous
Jack Black -High Fidelity
Benicio del Toro - Traffic
Mark Rufallo - You Can Count on Me
Stanley Tucci - Joe Gould's Secret

BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS
Frances McDormand - Almost Famous
Diane Venora - Hamlet
Lupe Ontiveros - Chuck and Buck
Sarah Jessica Parker - State and Main
Michelle Yeoh - Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon

15825. Francis Urquhart - 2/12/2001 8:59:39 AM

OTHER GOOD FILMS OF 2000
Joe Gould's Secret
Gladiator
Hamlet
What Lies Beneath
Deterrence
Meet the Parents
Boiler Room
State and Main
Judy Berlin
Chuck and Buck
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Gun Shy
Animal Factory
O Brother Where Art Thou

15826. Francis Urquhart - 2/12/2001 9:00:54 AM

TO SEE
Tigerland
Best in Show
Quills
Wonderboys
Two Family House
The House of Mirth

15827. rubberducky - 2/12/2001 9:18:47 AM

Fran

not for nuttin', but check out my review of Gun Shy on CG's site. it's not worth a 'to see' mention, imo.

15828. rubberducky - 2/12/2001 9:19:40 AM

Fran

sorry, i misread. i thought Gun Shy was in your 'to see' list post .. nevermind my post then

15829. Fielding - 2/12/2001 9:46:08 AM

My Top Ten

10) The Steadfast Tin Soldier segment of Fantasia 2000
9) The Tao Of Steve
8) Waking The Dead
7) Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?
6) Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
5) Bamboozled
4) Croupier
3) Quills
2) You Can Count On Me
1) Traffic


Still haven't seen Gladiator, Before Night Falls, Mr. Death, Requiem For A Dream.

15830. glendajean - 2/12/2001 10:02:02 AM

Judith ... you're right. I'll be watching Westminister Dog Show tonight. May the Scotty win best in show this year (hasn't happened since 1995).

15831. AceofSpades - 2/12/2001 10:06:15 AM

Ace's Top Oscar Picks:

1) Dungeons & Dragons
2) Lord of the Rings Trailer
3) Krull: The Collector's Edition

15832. JudithAtHome - 2/12/2001 10:20:56 AM

GJ:

Keoni hates to wait for the second night to see who wins so we are taping both nights and will watch the whole thing on Thursday night. He doesn't know anyone who would spill the beans before then so he's safe from having the winner spoiled and it's just like seeing it in real time for him. (It doesn't bother me to know ahead of time.) He also hates the commercials and by taping, we can speed through those to the dogs!

15833. rubberducky - 2/12/2001 10:25:43 AM

took in Hannibal over the weekend, along with millions of others

you know how, at XMas time, you will sometimes get a box wrapped in a box in a box? all of them taped up with a ribbon and bow? all have to be unwrapped to see what the gift was?

that's what Hannibal was like. i understand that the film had to show the new life the guy was living for the past 10 years since Lambs, but jaysus, did they waste too much time on it. way too much of some stupid Italian cop (um, don't they have a main character who is, i dunno, a FBI agent??) tracking down Hannibal.

just like when you unwrap all those boxes and the gift is underwhelming, so too was the movie when the lights came up. oh sure, the last 30 minutes were fantastic -gory as hell and extremely riveting. it just took too damn long to get there. not enough Clarice - not enough Hannibal - hell, not enough Hannibal eating people.

one last thing: Julianne Moore was very good. she did a better Jodie Foster than Jodie Foster does.

worth seeing, no question. it was just such a disappointment to see such potential go to waste.

15834. LohrM - 2/12/2001 12:20:32 PM

"Hannibal" gave me lots more fantasies about the luscious and leggy Julianne Moore...and the scenes in Florence gave me more insight about the life of my hero-- and images of items in his life that I need to acquire...

15835. rubberducky - 2/12/2001 12:31:41 PM

um, Hannibal "The Cannibal" Lecter is your 'hero'?

15836. JudithAtHome - 2/12/2001 3:30:45 PM

I'm watching something called Benny & Joon and am finally enjoying Johnny Depp in a movie.

15837. Fielding - 2/12/2001 3:36:55 PM

JAH:

Have you seen Ed Wood, or Donnie Brasco?

15838. rubberducky - 2/12/2001 3:37:56 PM

beat me to it

Depp was good in Donnie Brasco

15839. JudithAtHome - 2/12/2001 3:39:17 PM

Okay, okay...the third movie I've enjoyed him in...I also like Dead Man or whatever it was called...the b&w western.

15840. JudithAtHome - 2/12/2001 3:40:12 PM

...making this the fourth movie, etc.

Never mind...disregard what I said earlier.

15841. CalGal - 2/12/2001 4:04:24 PM

I liked Depp in Gilbert Grape, too. Also Ed Wood and Sleepy Hollow.

I don't much like his movies, but he's always easy on the eyes and fun to watch.

15842. JudithAtHome - 2/12/2001 4:18:42 PM

I couldn't abide Glibert Grape...I can't watch Leonardo DiCaprio for very long without developing a migraine.

15843. arkymalarky - 2/12/2001 6:38:04 PM

Depp was fine in Gilbert Grape. Who noticed DiCaprio?

15844. CalGal - 2/12/2001 6:39:08 PM

I thought diCaprio was very good in Gilbert Grape--he was never so good again.

15845. arkymalarky - 2/12/2001 6:41:47 PM

I agree, actually. I didn't have to stop to convince myself that he was mentally retarded.

15846. CalGal - 2/12/2001 6:44:56 PM

Yes. It is also hard to play retarded people in a way that doesn't make them "cute"--keep the reality of how difficult their life is (for them and for others) foremost--and yet still keep them likeable. Hoffman did a good job as an autistic in Rainman for similar reasons.

That is also the only movie I've been able to tolerate Juliette Lewis in.

I loathed the mother in that movie. Not the performance, the character. She was an evil creature.

15847. arkymalarky - 2/12/2001 6:48:16 PM

Why?

15848. CalGal - 2/12/2001 6:50:45 PM

She not only expected and demanded that her older children operate as parents (both as income and care providers) but she was harsh and unpleasant when they failed to meet expectations that she herself couldn't even be bothered with. Of course, she wasn't even a parent at all--she'd just happened to have a few growths that weren't fat over the years and look! a baby!

Disgusting woman, and an awful parent.

15849. arkymalarky - 2/12/2001 6:55:46 PM

Yeah, but I see her as a pitiful, weak (and believable) person and can understand how her kids loved her in spite of all that, so I couldn't really detest her.

15850. CalGal - 2/12/2001 7:07:09 PM

As a person, I can give that a pass. But as a mom, she was awful.

It's interesting you bring up the love her kids had for her. I saw nothing in the movie to warrant them loving her in the slightest, so to me it seemed more likely they convinced themselves that they loved her because otherwise their entire reason for being would cease to exist. If Gilbert and his older sister realized what a shit their mother was, would they just leave? Or would they realize that they were trapped because of their love for their siblings, who they couldn't desert to be neglected by their mother?

Given those choices, it might be easier to tell yourself that gosh, you loved your mom. In four years, they might feel quite differently.

A lot of people don't like Gilbert Grape--and I'm not sure I'd argue that it is a fantastic movie. But it is a very good character study of dysfunctional families, and that always interests me.

15851. arkymalarky - 2/12/2001 7:22:00 PM

I agree. The characters, even the mother, whose acting wasn't very good, imo, ring true. The awkwardness of her acting made her even more real, in a way. As for the kids' feelings, I can understand them. I once dated a guy whose father was a terrible alcoholic, and I low-rated him one time when we were in a conversation for the way he'd done his family, and my b/f stopped me cold, reminding me that he was his father. I had inconsiderately forgotten that he loved his dad. The feelings of her kids for a weak woman who needed them were very believable to me.

I think it was a flawed movie, and Mary Steenbergen, even if she is an Arky, could have been left out of it, afaic, but there's something about it very familiar and justifying of family love, even among the most dysfunctional of families with a weak and selfish, self-centered parent. And of course the dad had abandoned them all in his own weakness.

15852. CalGal - 2/12/2001 7:28:16 PM

Oh, yes. That was one of the worst things about the movie--dump Steenbergen. The part about the disintegrating town, and the small business losing out to the big stores was great, though. When Gilbert ran into his boss while he was buying the cake? Lord.

The feelings of her kids for a weak woman who needed them were very believable to me.


Completely believable. I'm just not sure if their love proved that she was worthy of love.

15853. CalGal - 2/12/2001 7:29:41 PM

And of course the dad had abandoned them all in his own weakness.


Yes, the father had left them completely, and that, too gives the mom such a low standard to meet. After all, she didn't kill herself with this awful family (their thinking goes). So we can be grateful for something.

15854. arkymalarky - 2/12/2001 7:39:24 PM

"I'm just not sure if their love proved that she was worthy of love."

I don't think it did, beyond the point that she was human and their mother and she loved them to the farthest of her limited capacity as a gilflirt.

15855. Fielding - 2/13/2001 8:52:29 AM

CalGal won't like this:

Oscar nominees:

BEST PICTURE
CHOCOLAT
CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON
ERIN BROCKOVICH
GLADIATOR
TRAFFIC

ACTOR -- LEADING
Javier Bardem
Russell Crowe
Tom Hanks
Ed Harris
Geoffrey Rush

ACTOR -- SUPPORTING
Jeff Bridges
Willem Dafoe
Benicio Del Toro
Albert Finney
Joaquin Phoenix

ACTRESS -- LEADING
Joan Allen
Juliette Binoche
Ellen Burstyn
Laura Linney
Julia Roberts

ACTRESS --SUPPORTING
Judi Dench
Marcia Gay Harden
Kate Hudson
Frances McDormand
Julie Walters

DIRECTING
BILLY ELLIOT
CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON
ERIN BROCKOVICH
GLADIATOR
TRAFFIC

WRITING (ADAPTED)
CHOCOLAT
CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON
O BROTHER, WHERE ART THOU?
TRAFFIC
WONDER BOYS

WRITING (ORIGINAL)
ALMOST FAMOUS
BILLY ELLIOT
ERIN BROCKOVICH
GLADIATOR
YOU CAN COUNT ON ME

http://oscar.com/nominees/nominees_home.html

15856. rubberducky - 2/13/2001 8:56:24 AM

so - should we do a pool?

15857. JudithAtHome - 2/13/2001 8:57:29 AM

Last nights episode of Third Watch was one of the best shows I've seen in the past 4 years of series TV on the Networks. It blows anything on Network right out of the water and that includes West Wing and ER ....I know no one is watching this series but if you should see an episode called "The Shot" advertised for reruns, do yourself a favor and watch it.

15858. glendajean - 2/13/2001 9:01:41 AM

Gilbert Grape was filmed in Elgin and Taylor, Texas, small burgs about 30 miles outside of Austin. They built the moveable "Burger Barn" and placed it on the parking lot of a long-time barbecue restaurant.

My partner has family that live in Elgin and we've passed the Burger Barn, setting empty on that parking lot, ever since the movie was filmed.

We went home Christmas and alas, the Burger Barn is no more.

I taped the Westminister Dog Show last night, but ended up fast forwarding to the terriers. The Scotty didn't even place.

15859. glendajean - 2/13/2001 9:10:40 AM

Okay, people.



Did they announce the Academy Award nominations this morning? Where's the info?

15860. glendajean - 2/13/2001 9:13:24 AM

From USA Today:

02/13/2001 - Updated 08:54 AM ET

'Gladiator' leads Oscar field

BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. - Gladiator, Hollywood's high-tech return to the glories of Rome, led Academy Awards contenders Tuesday with 12 nominations, including nods for best picture, actor and director.

Best Actor


Javier Bardem
Russell Crowe
Tom Hanks
Ed Harris
Geoffrey Rush

Best Supporting Actor

Jeff Bridges
Willem Dafoe
Benicio Del Toro
Albert Finney
Joaquin Phoenix

Best Actress

Joan Allen
Juliette Binoche
Ellen Burstyn
Laura Linney
Julia Roberts

Best Supporting Actress

Judi Dench
Marcia Gay Harden
Kate Hudson
Frances McDormand
Julie Walters

Art Direction

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Dr. Seuss' How the Grinch Stole Christmas
Gladiator
Quills
Vatel

Cinematography

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Gladiator
Malena
O Brother, Where Art Thou?
The Patriot

Costume Design

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Dr. Seuss' How the Grinch Stole Christmas
Gladiator
102 Dalmations
Quills

Directing

Billy Elliot
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Erin Brockovich
Gladiator
Traffic

Foreign Language Film

Amores Perros
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Divided We Fall
The Taste of Others

15861. glendajean - 2/13/2001 9:16:23 AM

Oh....Sorry Fielding. I thought you were listing your favorites. My BIG mistake.

15862. Indiana Jones - 2/13/2001 9:24:02 AM

gj: They were Fielding's favorites. He's just incredibly good.

15863. Indiana Jones - 2/13/2001 9:25:31 AM

joezan: I checked Cal's page before reviewing it. Don't remember seeing the previous comments (obviously), but am always interested in other Motiers opinions if anyone happens to know whereabouts they might be.

15864. rubberducky - 2/13/2001 9:33:42 AM

speaking of awards shows...

Battlefield Earth, Travolta's big-budget sci-fi stinker--which gave anxious movie critics an excuse to unleash phrases like "stomach-wrenching disaster" and "heaping mass of celluloid excrement" (well, okay, so that was us)--topped all nominees Monday for the 21st Annual Golden Raspberry Awards (aka "The Razzies"), scoring eight nominations including Worst Picture.

...

Per tradition, the Razzies are handed out one day before "that other" awards show, the Oscars. The handmade, gold-spray-painted raspberry trophies (estimated street value: $4.27) will be handed out March 24.

This year, however, Wilson said he's skipping the traditional ceremony in favor of a short press conference. "This year's movies are so dreadful," he said, "they're not worthy of a ceremony."

Here's a rundown of the nominees:

Worst Picture: Battlefield Earth, Book of Shadows: Blair Witch 2, The Flintstones in Viva Rock Vegas, Little Nicky, The Next Best Thing.

Worst Actor: Leonardo DiCaprio (The Beach), Adam Sandler (Little Nicky), Sylvester Stallone (Get Carter), Arnold Schwarzenegger (The 6th Day), John Travolta (Battlefield Earth and Lucky Numbers)

Worst Actress: Kim Basinger (Bless the Child), Melanie Griffith (Cecil B. Demented), Madonna (The Next Best Thing), Bette Midler (Isn't She Grating), Demi Moore (Passion of Mind)

more at the link

i personally am pulling for Travolta & Grinch big-time

15865. Fielding - 2/13/2001 9:47:51 AM

DiCaprio is very good in The Beach. I bet those jokesters didn't even see it.

15866. CalGal - 2/13/2001 9:49:40 AM

Well, my utter disgust at Soderbergh being nominated for Erin Brockovich is that, unless his publicist coordinates votes carefully, he'll lose bigtime.

Pretty pathetic nominations. About the only one I'm genuinely pleased about is Linney.

15867. CalGal - 2/13/2001 9:50:48 AM

..mitigated by the fact...,

(add between "is that")

15868. rubberducky - 2/13/2001 10:00:57 AM

my guess (as i haven't seen Beach yet), Fielding, is that he's nominated every year he does a movie

jealousy is a bitter thing it seems

15869. Fielding - 2/13/2001 10:03:40 AM

DiCaprio happens to be one of the best actors (so far) of his generation. I'll put him up against any other American man under 25.

Nonetheless, I can understand why people are jealous, given that he makes $20 million a movie and sleeps with a different super-model every night.

15870. CalGal - 2/13/2001 10:06:52 AM

diCaprio has done nothing worth commenting on except Gilbert Grape and three very special episodes of Growing Pains.

Joaquin Phoenix, off the top of my head, has done far more interesting work.

15871. glendajean - 2/13/2001 10:08:31 AM

Which movie was Phoenix nominated for, Gladiator or Quill?

15872. glendajean - 2/13/2001 10:09:02 AM

He was more interesting (and sexy) in Qill.

15873. CalGal - 2/13/2001 10:12:30 AM

Yeah, but on a guess I'm figuring Gladiator. It's a sad year when two audience pleasers are nominated.

But maybe Oscar is reverting to its roots. It was only in the 90s that there was any sort of correlation between critical favorites and nominations.

15874. Fielding - 2/13/2001 10:17:18 AM

It was Gladiator. I'm told his best work was The Yards.

15875. glendajean - 2/13/2001 10:20:25 AM

Cal -- it was the rise of the "independent" movies that changed Oscar. Now that the indies are as daring,as say, Chocolat, it all reverts back to form.

15876. CalGal - 2/13/2001 10:23:32 AM

GJ,

I think you're right. It is depressing, though. I would have liked to see Clooney instead of whoever the unpronounceable Spanish guy is, and Ruffalo should have been up there somewhere.

Actually, it's nice to see Bridges get nominated--I called that as a possibility when I saw The Contender. He was very good. I figured Allen was a given, although Bridges was more interesting.

It can't be that Marcia Gay Harden was nominated for Space Cowboys, can it?

15877. CalGal - 2/13/2001 10:26:26 AM

Oh, Judith--I tried to watch Third Watch last night but had to turn it off. Too painful. It did seem very good.

15878. JudithAtHome - 2/13/2001 10:27:42 AM

Fielding:

DiCaprio happens to be one of the best actors (so far) of his generation. I'll put him up against any other American man under 25.

Have you seen Giovanni Ribisi? Have you seen any number of young male actors who can actually act, including Joaquin Phoenix mentioned above? There are several young men under 25 doing better work than that one hit wonder with a dynamo publicity machine, DiCaprio.

15879. JudithAtHome - 2/13/2001 10:28:52 AM

CalGal:

You missed the best show of the season, thus far...riveting TV, I must say. My breath was literally taken away.

15880. ButterfieldSwire - 2/13/2001 10:30:00 AM

"Crouching Tiger, Thrusting Snake" was the only movie that I saw this year in the theater and frankly it sucked. Oh, but you dont understand I am told, in Asian cinema meandering, illogical plots; inconsistent characters with no development and silly to no histories; combined with intermittent fight scenes totally undermined by awful, unrealistic special effects are the state of the art.

On the other hand, "Gladiator" was, indeed, a mean spirited bit of violence pornography. Still, way better on interesting characters (and character development), action, and plot than "Crouching"

I havent seen any of the other movies, probably because they suck.

Gladiator should win.


Other than Chocalat, Traffic, and Erin Brockovich

15881. CalGal - 2/13/2001 10:57:20 AM

I can't believe that Chocolat was nominated over O Brother, Where Art Thou. No, I haven't seen Chocolat, but the Coen brothers are usually Oscar darlings, and it has gotten far better reviews than Chocolat.

Is Chocolat a Miramax film?

15882. CalGal - 2/13/2001 10:59:52 AM

Judith,

When he showed up at the guy's house, shaking, and then the minute his friend was gone opened the medicine cabinet? I was gone. I have a difficult time handling characters that are simultaneously loathsome and sympathetic, and I'm not vested enough in Third Watch to make the effort. That said, Third Watch has thus far been superior to any of my favorite shows, so I may be switching.

15883. glendajean - 2/13/2001 11:11:48 AM

Yes, Chocolat is a Miramax film.

15884. CalGal - 2/13/2001 11:15:00 AM

Ha.

Well, that explains it. Really, you'd think the academy would start to resist the manipulation after all these years.

Were there any black nominees? Not that last year was a great year for any black actor I can think of, but when the fuck are they going to recognize Don Cheadle?

15885. Fielding - 2/13/2001 11:47:14 AM

JAH:

"Have you seen Giovanni Ribisi? Have you seen any number of young male actors who can actually act, including Joaquin Phoenix mentioned above? There are several young men under 25 doing better work than that one hit wonder with a dynamo publicity machine, DiCaprio."

Clearly we disagree. Ribisi stunk up the screen in The Gift, and he's given a mixed bag of performances, although I like his work overall. I think DiCaprio is better.

15886. Fielding - 2/13/2001 11:49:09 AM

CalGal:

"I think you're right. It is depressing, though. I would have liked to see Clooney instead of whoever the unpronounceable Spanish guy is, and Ruffalo should have been up there somewhere."

Have you seen Before Night Falls? Or is this another one of your opinions that you are just sure of because you are?

15887. CalGal - 2/13/2001 11:51:20 AM

The latter, of course. Would you like to continue picking fights with me? Take it somewhere else.

15888. CalGal - 2/13/2001 11:55:46 AM

Oh, another nominee that I'm happy with is Ellen Burstyn. I've always liked her, and she hasn't done much phoning it in in her later years--and she still looks damn good. Wasn't it Christin who saw Requiem for a Dream?

15889. Fielding - 2/13/2001 11:56:00 AM

Hardin was nominated for her role as Lee Krasner in Pollock. She was excellent, and IMO, the most deserving of the five actresses nominated.

15890. JudithAtHome - 2/13/2001 11:56:38 AM

Fielding:

I don't mind disagreeing...I just think DiCaprio is all hat and no cattle. And I know there are better examples than Ribisi; I don't see many movies and can't think of the names of the ones I might propose, anyhow...drawing blanks here.

...which might suggest I've no business disagreeing with you!:-)

15891. CalGal - 2/13/2001 11:57:13 AM

Oh, that's good. I couldn't believe it was for Space Cowboys; that was depressing me. I read a lot of good things about her in Pollock.

15892. JudithAtHome - 2/13/2001 11:58:04 AM

role as Lee Krasner in Pollock

I really want to see this movie...Ed Harris seems to be perfection in the casting department.

15893. Fielding - 2/13/2001 11:59:43 AM

CalGal:

Would you like to continue picking fights with me?

I'm not picking a fight, I'm disagreeing with you. For someone who talks such a tough game, you can be awfully thin skinned.

I don't think its appropriate to discount a performance you haven't seen. If you disagree, then stand up for yourself.

15894. Fielding - 2/13/2001 12:00:58 PM

CalGal:

I agree with you about Don Cheadle, btw. I think he is criminally overlooked by the Academy.

15895. Fielding - 2/13/2001 12:04:25 PM

JAH:

Another young actor who gets great notices is Tobey Maguire, He was in The Ice Storm, The Cider House Rules, and Wonder Boys, among others.

15896. JudithAtHome - 2/13/2001 12:07:08 PM

Oh yes, he's great....and I like that guy from American Beauty , too.

15897. janjon - 2/13/2001 12:12:43 PM

Ribisi is especially interesting because, unlike the others being alluded to, I can't see that any part of his appeal would be sex appeal.

He was terrific in Boiler Room.

15898. CalGal - 2/13/2001 12:13:13 PM

Fielding,

But I am not talking about performances. I am talking about Oscar nominations (and then, separately, wins). Surely you accept the fact that there is a difference? No one with any sense believes that the nominees are the five best performances, or that the best performance any year wins. So, given the vast number of performances to choose from in any year, I am expressing dissatisfaction with what performances the nominations were used for. Performance is one--but only one--factor.

Therefore, my preference was that one nomination be used to reward Clooney for his success in moving from TV to movies while making blockbusters and quality films in equal measure, for what was generally considered to be an excellent performance. As opposed to rewarding a guy who--regardless of the quality of his performance--was probably nominated because the guy he played died of AIDS, as a representative of Hollywood's penchant for rewarding the "politically correct" performance and movie.

It's not that one is worse than the other. It's just what I would have preferred. Frankly, I would have been happy to sacrifice Hanks (nominated too often) and/or Rush (ditto) for Clooney, too--and Michael Douglas had a great year.

15899. rubberducky - 2/13/2001 12:16:04 PM

eh, but Hanks was fantastic on that island and deserves his nod, too many nominations or no

15900. CalGal - 2/13/2001 12:16:17 PM

I like Maguire, but he's limited. Don't care much for Ribisi--just saw Boiler Room and he just bugs me. Although the scene where he flips out when it looks like they're going to go after his dad is very touching.

Phoenix, like diCaprio, has been working for a long time--he was really very good in Parenthood, the first film I saw him in.

15901. CalGal - 2/13/2001 12:18:03 PM

Ducky,

I agree about Hanks. It's not like he's turned into Meryl Streep, or something--his performance was apparently extremely good. But I would have no problem with the big stars getting their hopes crushed periodically. (g)

15902. Cellar Door - 2/13/2001 12:41:03 PM

As opposed to rewarding a guy who--regardless of the quality of his performance--was probably nominated because the guy he played died of AIDS, as a representative of Hollywood's penchant for rewarding the "politically correct" performance and movie.

Oh please! It was a good perfromance in a good movie. He's being rewarded because the town wants to cast him in other, biggermovies in the future. It's that simple.

But the Oscars are a crock anyway overall.

15903. CalGal - 2/13/2001 12:43:32 PM

It was a good perfromance in a good movie.

I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was irrelevant. However, you might be right. It might be the "reward for promising young actor" category rather than the "reward the politically correct" category.

15904. Cellar Door - 2/13/2001 12:45:32 PM

The "word on the street"out here about Bardem is hot and heavy. There's an enormous Latino market the studios are trying to hook into. Antonio Banderas hasn't panned out. Bardem may well be the golden goose.

15905. Fielding - 2/13/2001 12:56:16 PM

CalGal:

I would like to see the best five performances nominated, and the best single performance win. I know that this rarely happens, but it is a popularity contest. I am opposed to voting for people for political reasons. I would consider the rationale you give for Clooney a "political reason".

I liked Clooney a lot, but I don't think he was one of the top five performances of the year. I too am sick of Tom Hanks, but I believe that his nomination is deserved. (OTOH, I would be very happy if they took away Hanks' Oscar for Forest Gump and gave it to the more deserving Samuel L. Jackson). Geoffrey Rush was brilliant in Quills.

Finally, I don't think it is appropriate to dismiss the Bardem nomination as merely AIDS sympathy. Every review I read for that movie raved about his acting.

15906. Fielding - 2/13/2001 1:04:25 PM

Bardem has been in many Spanish films. The only film of his that I saw was the Spanish sex farce Jamon, Jamon. I didn't detect any great acting by Bardem, but you usually don't in movies like this. In any case, I pretty much only noticed his co-star, the then-unknown Penelope Cruz.

I would not be surprised if this little film were rereleased, or had at least a video store resurgence. Given the subject matter, I wouldn't be surprised if it made the permanent collections of some of the more voyeuristic moties.

15907. CalGal - 2/13/2001 1:12:49 PM

Fielding,

Clooney's nomination wouldn't have been political. Douglas' nomination would have been--the man is quite powerful in Hollywood still (his Wall Street win was certainly political).

Most nominations fall into categories that have relatively little to do with quality.

You may like to see the five best nominees in each category, but what you like has relatively little to do with it. I'm talking about what is, not what should be. As such, when I express a preference for one actor being nominated over another, I might not be talking about their performance. Quite often (but not always) their performance is irrelevant to my opinion. If I haven't seen the movie, I am assuming that their performance was superb--and it wouldn't matter to my preference.

Now, given that there is never that sort of agreement about any performance, I'm usually assuming that the performances are within a given range of each other.

Finally, I don't think it is appropriate to dismiss the Bardem nomination as merely AIDS sympathy.

There is a difference between dismissing a nomination and dismissing a performance--therefore, your lauding of his work is irrelevant to my dismissal of his nomination. I did not dismiss his performance. But his performance, having hit a baseline standard, is not why he was nominated. Cellar offered an alternate theory--I am not convinced, but it's another possibility.

Now, please understand this next part, because I don't feel like correcting you later: sometimes, performance is important. And I certainly prefer it when an actor who is nominated or wins for a particular reason is also doing some of their best work (hence my disdain for the Roberts presumed win) or at least solid quality work (hence my lack of dismay over Finney or Hanks, to name two).

15908. Fielding - 2/13/2001 1:38:00 PM

CalGal:

"Clooney's nomination wouldn't have been political. Douglas' nomination would have been--the man is quite powerful in Hollywood still (his Wall Street win was certainly political)."

I was saying that your reasons were political.

15909. glendajean - 2/13/2001 1:44:15 PM

I hope that the O Brother Where Art Thou sound track gets recognition.

15910. glendajean - 2/13/2001 1:48:07 PM

And I am disappointed that Gladiator is considered the great movie of this year.

Crowe was at his iconographic best in LA Confidential. G was a mess, more a science fiction story than a historical movie.

15911. Fielding - 2/13/2001 1:51:56 PM

CalGal:

Why is GJ's post linked to the "Topics of Interest" bar, when my post predates hers by five? Please fix it.

15912. CalGal - 2/13/2001 1:57:30 PM

GJ is a he. And the reason I used GJ's is because from that point on the conversation is almost solely about Oscar noms, rather than on other subjects. It was cleaner.

I was saying that your reasons were political.


No, my reasons aren't political. I value one category over another. That's not "political". I think Clooney did an excellent job.

15913. Fielding - 2/13/2001 2:00:16 PM

"GJ is a he."

I apologize. Sorry GJ.

15914. Fielding - 2/13/2001 2:03:08 PM

CalGal:

"And the reason I used GJ's is because from that point on the conversation is almost solely about Oscar noms, rather than on other subjects. It was cleaner."

Bullshit! There were only two posts between mine and GJ's that were off-topic, and then there were others off-topic after GJ's post. You are a liar.

And you wonder why people accuse you of censorship.

15915. AceofSpades - 2/13/2001 2:07:59 PM

Jesus. How petty, Fielding. Childish.

15916. Indiana Jones - 2/13/2001 2:42:30 PM

Ace: Fielding and Cal currently have a problem with each other of which this trifle is just the latest broadside. Check out New Thread and Feature Suggestions to see what this is really about.

15917. glendajean - 2/13/2001 2:44:23 PM

My posts should be deleted since it was repetitive. I goofed on posting that after Fielding did.

15918. Fielding - 2/13/2001 2:46:16 PM

Ace:

You got that right.

15919. CalGal - 2/13/2001 2:49:33 PM

Christ. I'm about to dump the whole damn lot of posts into the Inferno. Unbefuckinglievable. GJ, your post was fine. I used it because it meant there was no duplication. If Fielding is concerned about "credit", there is a post right after that where you give him homage as the first poster of the nominations. No slight was intended, and the mind honestly boggles at the thought.

Indy, I have no "problem" with Fielding, so why not limit yourself to descriptions of your own interpersonal issues? It will save yourself much time and no one else will have to cleanup your messes.

Now. Enough on this whole subject. I can't believe we're having this conversation. Is there a full moon?

15920. Indiana Jones - 2/13/2001 3:01:35 PM

Indy, I have no "problem" with Fielding, so why not limit yourself to descriptions of your own interpersonal issues?

Hmm...I thought you posted something upthread about how Fielding kept picking fights with you?

Look, I have tried to avoid getting into the middle of an interpersonal issue (that apparently in your mind doesn't exist, after all). In fact, my post was along that line: an effort to keep a third party (Ace) from getting involved in what is obviously an ongoing spat between you and Fielding--especially without knowing all the facts.

If the discussion is about thread creation and linking of posts, then it's a policy discussion that all Motiers should be entitled to comment on. If it's a personal disagreement between you and Fielding that you wish no one else would become involved with--which you deny it is--then by all means, take it to email.

15921. janjon - 2/13/2001 3:05:07 PM

This is better than the plots of most tv dramas.

15922. CalGal - 2/13/2001 3:08:27 PM

Indy--you referenced Suggestions, where no such argument exists. My comment about "picking fights" to Fielding in this thread was in reference to a prior exchange we had on Oscar nominations (as was his original post to me).

His bizarre demand for "credit" came out of the blue, not because there was any fight going on.

To say that "linking of posts" is a policy issue strikes me as a bit bizarre.

15923. janjon - 2/13/2001 3:21:20 PM

I should go use the bathroom but I'll wait for the commercial break. This is too good to miss.

15924. CalGal - 2/13/2001 3:57:52 PM

I think it's over. I'll holler if it looks like you're gonna miss a good part. Don't ruin the couch on our account.

15925. Fielding - 2/13/2001 5:19:55 PM

Fox TV has announced that it plans a new reality-based TV show - with a twist. On this show the players will be forced to endure constant changes in reality. Often reality will be the direct opposite of what it appears. Sometimes the ground will actually shift when a player is in mid-sentance. The show will be called CalGal-land.

15926. CalGal - 2/13/2001 5:23:29 PM

So back to the Oscars.....

Is it fair that we have to tolerate both Gladiator and Brockovich in the "big blockbuster that will instantly be added to the Worst 'Best Movies of All Time' list"?

15927. LadyChaos - 2/13/2001 7:20:45 PM

I cannot fucking believe that Gladiator got nominated for best picture and best director. That movie was a perfect example of bad filmmaking. Ugh. I suppose it stands as testimony to how slim the pickings were, this year.

A close second in the I-can't-fucking-believe-it department is Erin Brockovich. A Civil Action covered an almost identical topic, but was a much better film. The difference? Julia Roberts plays a down-and-out single mom is vindicated in the end for all her travails. Very uplifting. A Civil Action was much darker, and the main character was a lawyer.

But Roberts will probably win Best Actress. If only we could all look like that in a minidress.... Oh, well.

Biggest laugh: Steven Soderberg getting nominated twice, so he'll be competing against himself. Has that ever happened, before?

15928. LadyChaos - 2/13/2001 7:23:04 PM

CalGal,

Gladiator is definitely a step down from Titanic. At least James Cameron knows how to direct action sequences. Ridley Scott apparently has yet to meet a bad camera placement that he didn't like. Gladiator is the final nail in the coffin of the craft of film editing.

15929. AceofSpades - 2/13/2001 7:28:41 PM

Action directors should review You Only Live Twice and From Russia with Love. There, the films counted on the physicality of the actors, the guts of the stuntmen, and the ingenuity of fight choreographers to sell the action.

Many of today's directors think they can dispense of such niceties by just moving the camera around a lot or cutting very quickly.

Memo to Hollywood: People don't go to see action films for camera work. They see action films for action. When "Camera Work Movies" and "Fast Cutting Movies" become popular genres, you can shake the camera and make .3 second cuts to your heart's content.

Until then, try focusing on *performance* first, rather than the strictly technical skills of DP & editor. What's in front of the camera, not who's behind it. The shoot, not post-production.

15930. AceofSpades - 2/13/2001 7:29:28 PM

Ridley Scott started as a commercial director.

Thirty years later, it still shows.

15931. AceofSpades - 2/13/2001 7:30:51 PM

The artificially sped up, artificially colored clouds rolling in Gladiator...

... so 1983. So Calvin Klein's Obsession.

15932. AceofSpades - 2/13/2001 7:31:50 PM

Tony Scott is twice the director his brother is, even if he's a bit addicted to candy-colored camera lenses.

15933. LadyChaos - 2/13/2001 7:35:19 PM

Ace,

Precisely. These guys who come from commercials (and the director of "The Rock" come to mind in particular - forget his name) often come from art school backgrounds, where they never learn the art of orienting the audience in the screen space.

I recently found myself trying to explain to a bunch of law students why Gladiator was a bad movie. They didn't get it. People seem to be under the misapprehension that a director creates tension by confusing the audience. I try to encourage those people to see the short film of Hitchcock lecturing about the "bomb-under-the-chair" scene. A great lesson in how a real filmmaker builds suspense.

15934. ChristinO - 2/13/2001 7:46:36 PM

LadyC!

Come visit me in the Cafe if you've got a minute!

15935. CalGal - 2/13/2001 9:38:52 PM

Biggest laugh: Steven Soderberg getting nominated twice, so he'll be competing against himself. Has that ever happened, before?


Nope--and that's the first thing that struck me, too. He'll probably lose as a result, unless he exhorts everyone to vote for one or the other.

Gladiator is definitely a step down from Titanic.

I agree--the last hour of Titanic made up for a lot of sins in the first two.

15936. Fielding - 2/13/2001 9:52:04 PM

It has happened in other categories, mostly in the 1930s. IIRC, Richard Barthelmess (sp) was once nominated for best actor for three different films.

15937. CalGal - 2/13/2001 9:56:06 PM

Oh, I was thinking of director. It's not even allowed in actor categories any more, and there is a weird glitch there--can't remember what it is right now.

It has something to do with a baseline amount. If an actor is getting nominated for two roles, they are both counted until one reaches a certain number (it's that cutoff point that I can't quite remember what triggers it). At that point, only the votes for the qualifying role are counted. There is no guarantee that the actor might not ultimately end up with more votes for the other role--although no one will ever know, because those votes aren't counted.

Ebert wrote about this once.

15938. mgleason - 2/13/2001 11:43:02 PM

Interesting piece on the BBC World News on Nepal's 'News from Yesterday and Today,' a political satire on the air since 1994. Comedian Sontash Panta says that the cupidity of politicians and rumor-mongering journalists insures a plethora of material, and he's able to skewer them with their own words. I was thinking that we could use a show like that here, but figure that network news shows are parody enough.

15939. Fielding - 2/14/2001 9:09:09 AM

CalGal:

I read this morning that Michael Curtiz was nominated twice for Best Director in 1939 for Angels With Dirty Faces and Four Daughters. Curtiz did not win the Oscar that year, losing to Frank Capra (You Can't Take It With You), but later went on to win for Casablanca.

15940. Indiana Jones - 2/14/2001 9:52:30 AM

Guilty confession: I think the funniest show on TV currently is Blind Date.

It's only 30 minutes, you can tune in and out whenever you want, and I laugh out loud at least once every episode. Usually several times.

15941. JudithAtHome - 2/14/2001 10:00:16 AM

I've seen that show...it IS funny. There's a guy on TT who went on the show; his date ran on the 12th and he has a thread about it. I missed his date but he's a very funny guy...

15942. Indiana Jones - 2/14/2001 10:20:10 AM

Judith: The thought balloon writers make the show, so it's not exactly "reality" TV. It's the juxtaposition of reality and creativity that does it IMO.

15943. JudithAtHome - 2/14/2001 10:26:21 AM

Yes, I love the pop-ups...it's great to see creative writers finally getting work!:-)

15944. Indiana Jones - 2/14/2001 10:46:48 AM

On another note, watched Dark Angel last night for the first time in a while. (I've seen it now a total of three times, I think.) This episode was much improved--the part I saw, which was the last 30 minutes or so--with a real kick-ass fight scene.

Then they padded it out with some touchy-feely girl talk at the end, but still far better than the pilot.

15945. AceofSpades - 2/14/2001 10:58:23 AM

"Has that ever happened, before?


Nope--and that's the first thing that struck me, too. "

Cal,

My sources tell me that it happened once before, in 1938. (My source being a chick reporter on MSNBC.)

15946. CalGal - 2/14/2001 11:22:35 AM

Ace,

I think you and Fielding are probably referring to the same thing, Michael Curtiz in 38/39 (although I haven't looked it up yet). Thanks for the correction, and I'll write Leonard Maltin. I'd seen him a few hours before the announcements talking to Brian Williams and he'd said that it had never happened before. I had been wondering about it before that point and had taken his word for it.

15947. CalGal - 2/14/2001 11:23:45 AM

Oh, and the thanks for the correction goes to Fielding, too!

I've been trying to find the Oscar rules about counting votes by role, to make sure that I understood it correctly. No luck yet. Anyone remember hearing of it?

15948. Fielding - 2/14/2001 11:23:57 AM

Ace:

See my post 15939, above.

15949. harper - 2/14/2001 2:35:26 PM

Hey, Indie, you like Dark Angel? I've only seen 2 episodes, but I'm hooked. A guilty pleasure for me.

15950. DocBrown - 2/14/2001 2:58:36 PM

Last night was the best Battlebots yet. The Lightweight and Heavyweight semifinal and championship matches paired up eight well-constructed bots against each other.

The semifinals were literally fierce, as every match involved lots of damage and most resulted in a kill. The flying-sauceresque Ziggo hit the claw-equipped Beta Raptor so hard that it lost motor control on one side. Then Backlash used its "giant pizza cutter" to throw pieces of Toe crusher all around the Battlebox.

That sent Ziggo to fight last year's champ, Backlash, who had never lost a fight.

Ziggo and Backlash tore into each other fiercely. After several crushing blows, Backlash's front wheel struts became bent and it looked like Backlash would lose its balance. It seemed that only the gyroscopic effect of the giant pizza cutter allowed Backlash to remain standing.

Then, as Ziggo charged and delivered another mighty slam into the side of its larger opponent . . . disaster struck! Ziggo's turntable mechanism broke down! It's armored body could no longer spin!

Backlash's Giant Pizza Cutter was still functioning, and as the big robot turned it to attack the damaged Ziggo, it seemed like last year's champ had won the day. But Ziggo could still maneuver, and Ziggo charged with everything it had. The two collided with a spectacular crunch, and when the smoke cleared the Giant Pizza Cutter was destroyed.

Now both robots were heavily damaged, but still moving.

Speedy Ziggo circled Backlash and rammed from the side. Without the gyroscopic effect of the Giant Pizza Cutter, Backlash was unstable. Ziggo's impact lifted Backlash's right wheels off the floor, and slowly the larger robot rolled onto its back.

The mighty Backlash had been beaten for the first time ever!

15951. AceofSpades - 2/14/2001 2:59:56 PM

Comedy Central... the Leader in Robotic Sports.

It's a fun show, but my girlfriend has only slightly more tolerance for Battlebots than she has for The Man Show.

15952. rubberducky - 2/14/2001 3:21:24 PM

i read online that there will be Battlebot toys coming soon...

15953. DocBrown - 2/14/2001 3:24:54 PM

The Heavyweight championship saw two of the best bot designs go against each other. Undefeated Vlad the Impaler defended his title against Biohazard.

Biohazard looks like a miniature version of the CSS Virginia (ev Merrimac) made of stainless steel. It is sleek and low, and from its top it can extend a powerful articulated lifting arm. Vlad the Imapler looks like an armored fork lift, with and extra arm protruding from its head (to right itself incase it finds itself inverted).

Both of these bots are very strongly built.

When the fight started the odds looked even. As they slammed and pounded, both used their arms to lift each other. Each squirmed from the other's grasp again and again.

Vlad's greatest asset is Gage Cauchois, its driver. Gage has always been able to maneuver Vlad into advantageous positions and throw his oponents anywhere he liked. But this worked poorly against Biohazard, which had armored panels that actually touch the floor. Vlad could not get a good grip on Biohazard.

15954. DocBrown - 2/14/2001 3:25:05 PM

Biohazard, however, could grab Vlad just like it could any other bot. Vlad's self-righting arm, which had never been used in a match, saved Vlad twice in one minute as Biohazard threw Vlad onto his back.

With Gage's normal tactics not working, it seemed that Vlad might slowly lose the fight on points. Gage must have realized this, because suddenly Vlad started to get reckless.

Then Biohazard grabbed Vlad from behind and pushed it into a pulverizer. Vlad extended its self-righting arm to fend off the blows; and that was a fatal mistake. The pulverizer came down on the self righting arm and bent it.

The crowd was stunned. Vlad the Impaler had actually been hurt!

Fittingly, with the next blow against Vlad's armored body the pulverizer itself snapped like a twig. Vlad sped away, but that damaged arm stuck out like a flag for all of us to see.

Biohazard was still functioning normally. As Vlad spent the final moments desperately seeking to win back the attention of the judges, all Biohazard had to do was evade and survive. It did.

Both champions got to defend their titles last night, and both lost. But the matches were wonderful!

15955. DocBrown - 2/14/2001 3:31:38 PM

From Battlebots.com:

HASBRO/TIGER ELECTRONICS ANNOUNCE BATTLEBOTS TOY DEAL
Hasbro, the premiere toy and game manufacturer, along with their sister company Tiger Electronics, have agreed to terms with BattleBots Inc., and are slated to launch a line of BattleBots toys and games which many industry analysts predict will be the hottest new line of 2001. Although still "under construction," the toy robot line will boast some of the most advanced remote control technology and features the industry has seen. Add to that the other remarkable toy and game products set to appear this summer, and it is clear that BattleBots, the smash TV hit, is on the fast track to becoming the year's hottest toys as well.

15956. ScottLoar - 2/14/2001 3:32:35 PM

My wife, my 15 year-old daughter and I watched Battlebots and liked it, though a little goes a long way. None can stand The Man Show. Iron Chef is very good though. Antiques Roadshow is also among the finest and not much beyond that - the wasteland. That a thread dedicated to tv shows can not only continue but prosper with comments never ceases to amaze me.

15957. DocBrown - 2/14/2001 3:33:57 PM

Ace, be jealous of me. My wife, Porsche, loves Battlebots.









Or at least she says she does.

She puts up with Junkyard Wars, and Junkyard Wars parties.

15958. CalGal - 2/14/2001 3:35:49 PM

It's not only dedicted to TV shows, but movies. I would say movie discussions constitute 70-80% of thread content. Have you seen the movie review site?

15959. AceofSpades - 2/14/2001 4:01:10 PM

DocBrown,

Want to hear something awful? I had to watch Coyote Fucking Ugly last night.

Ye gods.

15960. DocBrown - 2/14/2001 4:14:17 PM

Gosh, Ace. I didn't appreciate how good I've got it.

I'll take my evening over yours any night of the week.

Next week we see the Battlebots Superheavyweight championship! Last year's best bots have not survived this far into the competition, so that will probably be some good matches in those final rounds.

15961. Cellar Door - 2/14/2001 4:36:42 PM

Piper Pearabo is no Parker Posey.

15962. CalGal - 2/15/2001 12:46:21 AM

"You really have to ask yourself what the point is in being a super-power anymore."

I often wonder that myself.

15963. MsIvoryTower - 2/15/2001 9:05:27 AM

Ha, Calgal

I looked in to see if anyone was still watching The West Wing, and lo and behold I see your quote. It was a shining moment in the show last night.

I am totally dedicated to this show, and try to watch it every week. One thing that is beginning to wear on my nerves, however, is the Ansley character. She seems stuck in the same mode everytime they put her in a scene. Something needs to be done with the character, either make her more interesting or get rid of her.

Meanwhile, tonight is another one of my new additions: Survivor II. Somehow I managed to avoid getting hooked last summer, but this one caught my interest from the first episode. However, they're fast running through the more interesting people, and I expect I'll soon lose interest in the whole thing again.

My guess is that the least appealing characters will end up as the final four, as happened this summer, and I'll have lost interest well before then.

15964. CalGal - 2/15/2001 11:44:36 AM

The show is off this year from last, but it is still enjoyable. I quite liked last night's episode, overall, although I agree about Ainsley. CJ did a good job--I was thinking that the cop would kill himself, but instead they gave him a graceful way out that also showed how press secretaries manage publicity, when they have a chance.

The Emmy nominees are allowed to submit one episode to the judges, did you know that? One of the reasons why you get occasionally inexplicable Emmy wins--also why repeats happen so often. In any case, I have a feeling Sheen will submit last night's episode and there's a good chance he'll win for it. He was very good.

I'm tired of Donna and Josh--in fact, I'm tired of Donna and all the perky blondes. Be off with them.

15965. MsIvoryTower - 2/15/2001 5:18:20 PM

Donna and Josh

Yes, I'd agree they're getting tiresome. Not only that, their patter borders on the incomprehensible.

I think the show has been fine this year, when they've been showing first runs. It seems to me there have been a lot of repeats already.

CJ was in good form last night, but then, I've always liked her character, and Stockard Channing was also exellent in this two part episode. I was trying to figure out what had her so upset and when it came out last night, it wasn't trivial at all. Nor was it typical post-feminist mumbo-jumbo, which was a pleasant surprise.

Ainsley, however, is just a pain in the ass, and I say that with real regret because I had high hopes for her when she was introduced.

15966. CalGal - 2/15/2001 5:32:02 PM

I did, too. But I would have preferred it if Sorkin had come up with a woman who wasn't cute, twentyish, and "perky". Lord, when are they going to have some brassy, bitchy, bossy, kick ass, don't fuck with me chicks on there? Bring back the National Security Adviser!

I had known what Stockard Channing was upset about last week, so it came as no surprise. In fact, had he given her some whiny reason to be upset when she had such a legitimate one I would have thrown something at the TV.

Repeats: We're in February sweeps, so we'll get new stuff all this month, I think. The usual pattern is to keep us guessining in the non-sweeps months by interspersing reruns with new shows in no particular pattern. NYPD Blue changed this last year and I wish they were at the top of their form because it would draw more attention to it as a strategy.

15967. MsIvoryTower - 2/15/2001 5:42:02 PM

Well, I'd forgotten about the MS stuff. I mean, it lurks occasionally, but it's been a while since they've focused on it, so I couldn't place the anger from last week's episode. It certainly made sense when she discussed it, however.

As I said, her anger was based on something genuine and very valid. It also raised the issue of how hard it must be to remember one is sick when in remission. For someone who is in his position, it also highlighted how painful it must be to know you won't get to finish all that you wanted to do as President. I thought the whole scene was very well played.

Really, last night had at least two winning vignettes, IMO, the one between Sheen and Channing, and the one with him in the War Room.

15968. CalGal - 2/15/2001 5:49:48 PM

Yep. I agree on both.

It also highlights the ease with which someone in politics could be quite irresponsible. No doubt Bartlett will want to keep the news of his MS under wraps--and yet that is unquestionably something the public should justifiably know about should he run for a second term.

In general, I prefer last year's episodes, in which they did a better job of showing politics in play. I also thought that the "other side" got a good showing--even if Ace and Francis (aka Niner and Jack, if you missed the switch) bitched about it being onesided. I thought they quite often made the lead characters look like jackasses, or at least expedient.

This year there have been almost no political stories--in fact, I don't think the veep has shown up since his two scenes in the opening episode. There's been relatively little hardcore give and take on political issues--a little too much speechifying. And this seems to have been replaced with subplots on romance.

It's still worth watching, and they still have some perfect moments--and given the decline of practically all my other shows, the falloff has been barely noticeable.

15969. MsIvoryTower - 2/15/2001 5:52:27 PM

Do you mean to say that annoying Francis Upstart is 109?

Hahahaha, I should have known.....

15970. CalGal - 2/15/2001 5:54:36 PM

Yes, Niner has decided to change his moniker once a year. The thinking appears to be that if he liked the movie the character appeared in, then it is an eligible moniker. A very shallow determination. Which, now that I think on it, makes perfect sense. (g)

15971. MsIvoryTower - 2/15/2001 5:55:57 PM

I partly agree on the political plotlines, but I think some of that has been channelled into the numbers game. Polls of the Week seem to be what we get on the political schenagans.

Wasn't the episode with the President of one of the AID's ridden African countries this year? If that wasn't a policial issue, I don't know what was. However, the political dealmaking that was part of last year's plots seems to have taken a back seat.

15972. MsIvoryTower - 2/15/2001 5:57:23 PM

Well, what's the movie his character is from?

I'm quite behind the times with movies this year.

15973. CalGal - 2/15/2001 6:01:49 PM

Yes, that was a political issue and one of the better discussions on the show this season. Another interesting one was the Senator who was voted out but changed his vote on some defensive issue (forget what) because he knew that was what his people wanted, even if he'd fought for it his entire career. He thought it would be shabby behavior. I'm not sure if it was realistic, but it was a nice take on the subject.

However, for the most part these issues are now sideplots, rather than taking up most of an episode. It gives less chance for a real airing.

For example, last night the fact that the WoD is over was given "obvious" status. Well, is it that obvious? (It is to me, mind you.) But where was the person articulating the argument for it, or pointing out that legalizing drugs might have its own huge host of problems? That would have been something you would have seen last season.

What I very much liked was the expediency--fuck this, it's useless either way, let's negotiate, give them what they want.

15974. CalGal - 2/15/2001 6:03:54 PM

I should have said movie or TV show or song. Next year he's going to be ItsyBitsySpider.

Francis Urquhart is that ruthless politician in the BBC movie series that threw the reporter off the roof and declared she'd committed suicide. House of Card, Final Cut and one other. Ian Richardson plays him.

15975. Cellar Door - 2/15/2001 9:36:17 PM

Ian Richardson? Major Queen!

15976. wonkers2 - 2/15/2001 9:54:07 PM

Well??

15977. CalGal - 2/15/2001 11:32:11 PM

Cellar,

Well, if you noticed, Francis is always picking parts played by gay actors.

15978. MsIvoryTower - 2/15/2001 11:34:25 PM

Okay

I'm here to talk about SurvivorII.

This piece of shit-junk has me glued to the TV in horrified fascination. It must be that law school has driven me insane.

15979. CalGal - 2/15/2001 11:37:43 PM

I managed to skip all of Survivor I, and mean to keep my record intact. It's not snobbery, mind you. It is, rather, a desire to avoid the same sort of aggravation that has me screaming at the TV when I watch Who Wants to Be A Millionaire and the guy doesn't know which of the Friends was in a Red Shoes Diary episode.

I followed the dialog extensively here. Did you watch the first Survivor?

15980. MsIvoryTower - 2/15/2001 11:45:15 PM

Cal

I watched a few episodes after they'd merged the two groups. But since I loathed the guy who eventually won, and that truckdriver woman, I lost interest most of the time.

I'm getting to that point with this one, too, but still feel compelled to see if I'm proven wrong and people actually don't live down to expectations.

15981. CalGal - 2/15/2001 11:53:49 PM

It seems to me that there must be some sort of game theory to it. Slack should watch it and build the equation that predict the winner.

15982. JudithAtHome - 2/16/2001 11:38:32 AM

MsIT:

If you want to talk about Survivor, holler at me...last night was superb, from sacrificing chickens and a pig to a huge surprise at who got the boot.

There may be "game theory" to predict the winner but it would have to be one which included the vagaries of human emotion...I really do believe them when they say they changed their minds on the way to vote. The ending last night was not predicted anywhere, including Vegas and several "odds" sites on the net.

15983. Frankster - 2/16/2001 11:49:07 AM

I just stumbled across and been watching a WWII war flick starring Frank Sinatra and Clint Walker [ The title escapes me for the moment ], and it begs the question as to why Clint Walker wasn't a mega star. I dunno, maybe the standards have changed since then, but this guy had can't miss written all over him. What a stud -- a man's man I tell ya...The only thing I share with him is possibly a similar stentorian voice.

I guess they just threw the baby out with the bath water in his case. There were/are only so many roles a guy made for 60s big budget westerns and war flicks can do ...I didn't care too much for his role on, The Dirty Dozen, though.

15984. JudithAtHome - 2/16/2001 11:57:12 AM

He had a good career in TV, I think...

(and I'm so glad to hear your lunch went well!):-)

15985. Frankster - 2/16/2001 12:11:16 PM

Judith,

Where on TV ? I think Cal mentioned once that his career was now relugated to doing cartoon voice overs.

Oh, and I owe you a little for the suggestion on what I should wear for yesterday's lunch. She said she loved it.

I'm coming to painfully accept, that maybe -- MAYBE -- clothes do make the person. That maybe they do provide an "edge".








Na-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-H ;-)

16042. PelleNilsson - 2/16/2001 2:43:10 PM

I'll mention it in Suggestions and unless there are serious objections I'll set it up tomorrow morning my time (midnight, PST).

16043. CalGal - 2/16/2001 2:44:24 PM

Aytch,

Per Francis' request, how about a Survivor Cheat Sheet? I would be happy to create a page for it if someone gives me the data. Then I can add it to the links on the butterscotch bar.

We can also put the tallies on it, if you like.

16044. glendajean - 2/16/2001 2:47:27 PM

Cal -- see link to CBS site above. A

16045. AytchMan - 2/16/2001 2:47:41 PM

Okay, I guess we've finally achieved liftoff. I'll host the thread if so ordained.

I'll also put together a summary on each candidate.

16046. AceofSpades - 2/16/2001 2:47:46 PM

JAH:

Well, I thought you misunderstood Alicia's actions. Debb did exactly what Alicia said she did. So I don't see that as "scheming."

But there's no reason to fight about it. It's a trivial "dispute." I just think you don't like schwartzes.

Just kidding.

As for who will win:

I haven't a clue. The Michael/Kimmi tribe will supply the winner, in all likelihood, and we haven't seen quite enough of them to figure out who the contenders are. I like the black guy and black girl and the cute girl Elizabeth and the Old Man, simply because they've managed (apparently) to stay under the radar.

OTOH, one thing we know from Survivor I is that the eventual winner gets an inordinate amount of screentime. Which would suggest that Michael or (GASP!) even Jerri could win.

16047. CalGal - 2/16/2001 2:51:30 PM

Oh, we're going back to the thread idea? Good call. I'll still create the page if you like, Aytch, and then you can link it in on your own butterscotch bar.

Speaking for myself, I'd love a countdown on the order everyone was deleted--and do you know who voted for who to go out each time, or no?

As you can see, I'm trying to glean as much as I can without actually having to watch the show. I may have to start, and I find that most irritating. What night is it on?

16049. rubberducky - 2/16/2001 2:58:44 PM

all the Survivor 2 you could want ...

then of course there is survivorsucks.com

16050. CalGal - 2/16/2001 2:58:48 PM

Oh, and Aytch--we'll want to move all the Survivor talk over there. I can't remember if you can do it or if I have to because it's my thread, but let me know so we can do it early in the thread life.

16051. JudithAtHome - 2/16/2001 3:06:29 PM

CalGal:

It's on Thursdays at 7pm CST...

I had to chuckle at you wanting info so you wouldn't have to actually watch it....

16052. AytchMan - 2/16/2001 3:08:03 PM

cal--

check.

It's on Thursday.

My guess is that you have to move the conversation from your thread but what do I know. I'd like to wait until I get a couple of ground rules in first, though.

16053. CalGal - 2/16/2001 3:10:51 PM

Oh, sure. You could just tell people to keep posting here until it's ready, if you like.

16054. CalGal - 2/16/2001 3:12:42 PM

Judith,

I'm such a snob.

16055. Fielding - 2/16/2001 3:20:45 PM

According to The New York Post, Nathan Lane agreed to be on the cover of New York Magazine's upcoming "Gay New York" issue. Lane has not tried to hide his sexual orientation, but to my knowledge, hasn't formally come out either. A few years ago he said "I'm in my thirties, I'm single, and I'm in musical theater. You do the math."

16057. JudithAtHome - 2/16/2001 3:31:38 PM

Here is a great little write-up on Episode 4...

It might be a good place for a permanent link when the new thread goes in...

16061. janjon - 2/16/2001 3:41:16 PM

You can cook dinner in 20 minutes? Must be a lot of microwaving going on.

16062. MsIvoryTower - 2/16/2001 3:41:59 PM

Ace

You've seen the light....


And the Jeff I referred to in the last point of my previous post was the host Jeff, not the whiner Jeff.

16063. AceofSpades - 2/16/2001 3:43:20 PM

"You can cook dinner in 20 minutes? "

Chicken, rice, red pepper & taco seasoning in a skillet? Sure you can cook it in around 20 minutes, assuming you boiled the rice beforehand.

16068. glendajean - 2/16/2001 3:50:14 PM

Fielding -- Nathan Lane gave that quote in the Advocate Magazine. It was his officially coming out. He said that he did so after Matthew Shephard was killed.

A year later he emceed the annual Human Rights Campaign national dinner in Washington (October 1999) and then was a performer at the Equality Rocks concern at RFK Stadium during the April 2000 gay & lesbian march for equality in DC.

16069. MsIvoryTower - 2/16/2001 3:51:08 PM

Not

16070. MsIvoryTower - 2/16/2001 3:52:12 PM

Ha, my post was in reaction to Message # 16066.

16071. Fielding - 2/16/2001 3:54:21 PM

GJ:

I don't read The Advocate, so I probably must have read some distorted coverage in the mainstream press. Thank you for the correction.

16072. janjon - 2/16/2001 3:57:55 PM

New York is nothing more than a superficial, flitty little rag. You can now get subscriptions for about 17 cents a copy if you try just a little. Shallow articles at best. I wouldn't be thrilled at the prospects of such an issue, if I were gay.

16073. glendajean - 2/16/2001 3:59:12 PM

Janjon -- I am missing something. What are you talking about?

16074. glendajean - 2/16/2001 4:00:48 PM

BTW, Lane and Matthew Broderick will be in the stage version of Mel Brook's The Producers.

Springtime for Hitler & Germany....

16075. janjon - 2/16/2001 4:01:19 PM

When posting as to whether Nathan Lane had ever formally come out, Fielding stated that Lane had agreed to be on the cover of a forthcoming issue of New York about gay New York. Somewhere not too far above.

16076. janjon - 2/16/2001 4:02:31 PM

The Producers is being made into a Broadway show? YIPPEE.

16079. Fielding - 2/16/2001 4:06:22 PM

janjon:

I agree with you about New York Magazine, but it is a little off point. I don't read it either.

16080. PelleNilsson - 2/16/2001 4:25:17 PM

OK, since the Survivor thread is supported by its suggested host and the host of this thread I bypassed putting it up for discussion in Suggestions. The thread is now active.

16081. Jamie R - 2/16/2001 7:45:50 PM

Calgal, from back aways, Matt LeBlanc was in a Red Shoe Diaries episode.
My god, I never thought that info was going to come in handy.

16082. CalGal - 2/16/2001 7:51:10 PM

It is amazing how these tidbits come back when you need them most.

As I recall, he was a bike messenger.

Don't know if you ever saw the Friends ep where they all admitted past secrets and Joey had been in a porn film? No coincidence, that.

16083. Jamie R - 2/16/2001 8:46:22 PM

I love that episode.
"There I am. There I am. There I am..."
For my money Matt LeBlanc is positively brilliant on that show, especially considering what a tedious cliche of a character he was given to work with in the beginning. Not sure why he's not having any luck in movies. Of course, he did violate the number one rule of movie stardom, which is to fire any agent who tries to cast you opposite a loveable chimp.

16084. CalGal - 2/16/2001 9:55:27 PM

I've probably said it 20 times, but his reaction when he realized how Monica lost her eyelash curler is probably one of the funniest moments in TV history.

16085. Francis Urquhart - 2/17/2001 10:06:17 AM

Bring it On - Smart, funny, fresh, sharp, inventive and sexy in a wholesome way. And it is about California cheerleaders (East Compton v. Rancho Carne). I realize that the above "review" is Jeffrey Lyons-esque, but it's true. I enjoyed the entire thing, and if Kirsten Dunst did not have unremarkable eyes, she'd be Erin Brockovich II. It also features the second coming of Angela Bassett, Gabrielle Union. I can't stop humming "Oh Mickey, you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind, hey Mickey . . . hey Mickey" (which is better than humming Chuck and Buck's "Oodly oodly oodly oodly oodly oodly . . . fun fun fun . . . yeah") Grade A-.

What Planet Are You From? I loved it, but I laugh at Gary Shandling standing. Shandling wrote the screenplay. He is from another planet, a planet of men with no penises (penii?) and he is sent to impregnate an earth woman with his attached penis (it hums). At times, it reminded me a little of a much funnier "Sleeper". Shandling is well-supported by Annette Bening, John Goodman, and Greg Kinnear. Grades: if you like Shandling - B+. If not - B-.

16086. JudithAtHome - 2/17/2001 10:09:26 AM

It's a B+ for me, then...

16087. Francis Urquhart - 2/17/2001 10:12:21 AM

If you like Shandling, and especially if you appreciate his pained deadpan, the movie is classic.

16088. JudithAtHome - 2/17/2001 10:15:19 AM

FU:

I was intrigued by the ads when the movie came out. We go to Blockbuster about once a month and check out a stack of videos that we spend a day and a half watching...I'll have to remember this one next time we go.

16089. AceofSpades - 2/17/2001 1:27:09 PM

I keep missing "What Planet are you From?" on HBO.

I want to see it for the way Shandling proposes to Benning: "I want to spend the rest of my life... getting into your pants."

16090. Frankster - 2/17/2001 1:50:53 PM

Judith,

If you watched The Fugitive last night, did you expect that ending ? It kind of threw me because I didn't see a two-parter in this episode....Ooh, the things we do for love...





... I could have done without the title though. ;-)

Oops, better jump in the shower.

16091. CalGal - 2/17/2001 3:58:45 PM

Sudden Fear:

Joan Crawford, like Clark Gable, is an actor whose appeal really didn't hold up that well over the years. It's too bad, because Crawford had more balls than most men, and in her movies she usually portrayed a strong, independent woman who had every intention of providing for herself. Inevitably, though, she runs into some louse who either brings her down or tries to, all because she abandons her normal good sense to give in to her "woman's desires". Tragic, really.

Anyway, in Sudden Fear she plays a millionaire's daughter who happens to be a spectacular playwright. She fires Jack Palance from her show because he's not goodlooking enough--some things haven't changed. A month after the show's spectacular opening, she meets him on a cross-country train ride and lo! she doesn't think he's that ugly any more. She's in love, despite the warnings of friends and loved ones, including the man whose been her "best friend" all their lives....

And at that point I got aggravated with her stupidity and his ugliness and couldn't even listen any more. If the movie had a less than hackneyed end, could someone let me know?

16092. Cellar Door - 2/17/2001 4:27:24 PM

You obviously didn't hang in long enough to see Gloria Grahame steal it from Joan.

16093. CalGal - 2/17/2001 4:33:48 PM

No, was she Palance's girlfriend?

16094. PelleNilsson - 2/17/2001 5:09:39 PM

I always liked Jack Palance.

16095. labwabbit - 2/17/2001 5:24:01 PM

Never returned the calls though huh?

16096. Cellar Door - 2/17/2001 6:05:36 PM

Yeah, she played Palance's girlfriend. Joan loathed her like poison.

16097. MsIvoryTower - 2/17/2001 10:11:30 PM

Attention Judy Garland fans:

A&E just ran a two-hour biography of the Great Garland, on Biography, and I was enthralled. I've seen bits and pieces of her life story over the years, but Biography took the time to piece it all together from start to finish.

I was really wonderful, and I highly recommend it if you still have time to tune in.

16098. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 8:50:18 AM

And don't forget to watch the Bio-pic starring Judy Davis...the ads look fantastic!

16099. Francis Urquhart - 2/18/2001 10:33:42 AM

Shadow of the Vampire

Willem Dafoe is good. The movie is msuccessfully creepy, middling in most other respects, with predictable comparisons of the creation of art/the feasting of a bloodsucking fiend. It could have been much better if it were not consumed by self-importance. Warning: it ends with an unpleasant offering that is the equivalent of a gang rape. Grade: C.

16100. Indiana Jones - 2/18/2001 10:47:51 AM

Probably the last Motier to see it, but I just watched Pulp Fiction. Has there never been a previous discussion of it? I checked CalGal's reviews and didn't see it...

16101. CalGal - 2/18/2001 10:50:24 AM

It hasn't been discussed since I started keeping records--but I remember that there was one essay of PE's on the subject that I used to have at the Fray. I'll see if I can dig it up.

16102. Indiana Jones - 2/18/2001 10:57:36 AM

Thanks, Cal. I'll check back.

16103. CalGal - 2/18/2001 11:01:27 AM

Indy--one thing, though. Despite my best efforts to recover things off my old PC, some files are missing and I did a cleanup of the website a while back thinking I had backups of everything. I think that they all exist on ZIP files somewhere, but it's been really hard tracking down where I put them. Irritating, let me tell you, for someone who saves things obsessively.

16104. Fielding - 2/18/2001 6:10:18 PM

"At times, it reminded me a little of a much funnier "Sleeper"."

It was like sex, only more pleasurable.

It was like Death Valley, only hotter.

It was like one of Rosie's posts, only dumber.

She looked like Emanuelle Beart, only more beautiful.

It was like this point I'm making, only more redundant.

16105. Francis Urquhart - 2/18/2001 6:55:15 PM

The hostility of a man who lauded "Waking the Dead" is ugly like a carbuncle. Only uglier. But I love you, Fielding, no matter how many times you turn me away. Put your head on my shoulder.

16106. Fielding - 2/18/2001 11:16:25 PM

Calling myself "redundant" is hardly the mark of hostility, sweet Francis.

And how can I not love a movie featuring a semi-clad Jennifer Connelly uttering the immortal line "I love you, Fielding."

16107. Indiana Jones - 2/18/2001 11:45:17 PM

I had the feeling you had named yourself after that character.

Rather a bizarre choice, I must say, considering the overall character. But then again while watching Pulp Fiction I was toying with the idea of changing my handle to Marsellus Wallace until the little Deliverance episode.

Now I figure it can be Francis's next pseud. One of you is going to have to change names, BTW, because I keep confusing "Fielding" and "Francis Urquhart" for some reason.

16108. Fielding - 2/18/2001 11:59:34 PM

I did not name myself after that character.

16109. Indiana Jones - 2/19/2001 12:04:50 AM

Good...that's a relief. I would have wondered about you.

16110. Fielding - 2/19/2001 12:15:19 AM

There's nothing like receiving some friendly moniker abuse from someone calling himself "Indiana Jones". :)

16111. Indiana Jones - 2/19/2001 12:18:10 AM

You think that's bad...my original moniker was "Stinky."

16112. Fielding - 2/19/2001 12:44:49 AM

The trend is positive. :)

16113. ChristinO - 2/19/2001 3:12:09 PM

Saw Traffic last night and really enjoyed it. I have one gripe (other than about the obnoxious cow sitting next to me in the theater) This ties in with Requiem for a Dream and various and sundry other junkie movies I've seen over the years.


I am disgusted by the racist and sexist message promoted by the cliche that so often turns up in these films that insists that the second worst thing a woman can succumb to is having sex in exchange for drugs and the very worst thing is for a rich white girl to have sex with a black man of any class for drugs.

Is that the primal fear of middle class white folks everywhere? That their daughters will end up not just trading sexual favors but to BLACK MEN?

The message is that the most precious posession a woman has is still her twat and the thing all black men want is to nail white women. Haven't we made more progress than this by now?

sheesh.

16114. ChristinO - 2/19/2001 4:51:04 PM

Judging by the lack of comment I'm apparently the only one really bothered by this.



I HATE it when I'm so far out of synch and totally unaware. Did I miss the memo?

16115. rubberducky - 2/19/2001 4:54:50 PM

16116. JudithAtHome - 2/19/2001 4:55:09 PM

What is wrong with the IMD link...I go there and all it does is download the header and the ads...

16117. CalGal - 2/19/2001 7:56:00 PM

Ducky,

That's hysterical.

Christin,

Well, give us a chance to react! (some spoilers, nothing critical)

the very worst thing is for a rich white girl to have sex with a black man of any class for drugs.

Consider the followup: the black dealer was totally badass. He gave no quarter, and treated Douglas exactly like any other outraged homeowner faced with a wacko on his doorstep. And the john that he found her with was white, middleaged, and dumpy. Douglas was equally contemptuous.

16118. Fielding - 2/19/2001 9:21:35 PM

The Pledge

Director Sean Penn's psychological character-study tells the tale of retired policeman (Jack Nicholson) who seeks to redeem his soul by capturing a serial child rapist/murderer. The Pledge has spurts of fine acting. Nicholsen is unusually understated and generous on screen. Benicio Del Toro, Vanessa Redgrave, Mickey rourke, Helen Mirren, Harry Dean Stanton and Sam Shepard are all great, but only one of them is on screen for more than two minutes. The Pledge is otherwise full of flaws: Absurd police-work, continuity failures, heavy-handed use of background televisions, bizarre editing choices, red herrings and worst of all, pretentious directing. The Pledge is also marred by the gratuitously graphic presentation of a lurid subject matter.

I think of this movie as a rich man's Lost Highway.

Grade: C

16119. Fielding - 2/19/2001 9:31:37 PM

Christin:

Maybe its my values, but I thought the sight of Erika Christenson with the white middle-aged john was presented as more disturbing than her choosing to sleep with a black dealer. In other words, I disagree with your point about the way it was presented, although I'm sure that plenty of people reacted the way you described.

16120. Fielding - 2/19/2001 9:39:07 PM

Le Gout Des Autres (The Taste Of Others)

The Taste Of Others is a subtle look into the way people put on airs towards each other over things like class, aesthetic taste, romantic history and money. Not a lot happens in this film, but each of the seven or so primary characters gets confronted with his/her prejudices at some point, leading many to reconsider their values. A knock-out directing debut by Agnes Jouai, who also acts and co-wrote the screenplay with co-star Jean Pierre Bacri (who is also Jouai's co-star in real life).

Grade: B+


This movie has the honor of losing the Oscar for Best Foreign Language Film to Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

16121. Fielding - 2/19/2001 9:53:35 PM

I need some help from movie fans.

I saw a French movie in 1984-85. This film had a Manhattan Transfer style structure: lots of characters interwoven into each others lives. I don't remember that much about the plot, except one character, a heavy set man with blond hair played an assassin. I remember him eating meals, riding a bateau mouche, and at the end, shooting another character in the forehead from across the street.

Can anybody help me identify this film?

16122. AceofSpades - 2/19/2001 11:12:53 PM

I only know one French film from that era:

Diva.

16123. CalGal - 2/19/2001 11:31:48 PM

Fielding,

The IMDB can be very useful for that--try their advanced search. I tried a search for you, but I don't know enough about the film.

16124. AceofSpades - 2/20/2001 12:07:56 AM

If a bateau mouche is a moped, then the film is Diva.

16125. CalGal - 2/20/2001 2:11:46 AM

Oh, I didn't realize you were telling him which one it was. I remember when Diva came out but I never saw it. I read up on the reviews; it does sound like Fielding's description.

IMDB page

The blond guy on the movie poster might be the one you're talking about. In reading the reviews, I wonder if he is Dominique Pinion? Have no idea who he is, but the critics all speak well of him and he gets raves in some other movies in his page as well.

16126. Frankster - 2/20/2001 5:08:04 AM

From Walter Scott's Personality Parade: Found in many Sunday newspapers across the country.

We've covered this topic before, and here is another explanation for it:

Q : Why are there so many reruns on TV ? It used to be 39 shows a season. Now it's barely 13 -- Nancy Jensen, St.Paul, Minn.

A : For several reasons. No.1: It has become too expensive to make 39 shows ( ER, for example, costs $13 million per episode). No.2: With so many channels to choose from, viewers often miss favorite shows and want to see reruns. No.3: Particularly with dramas, the strain on the cast, writers, and crew is so great that they can't turn out more episodes. And No.4: reruns are profitable. For instance,Law and Orderrepeats have been shown on NBC and now are on the A&E cable network, still drawing large audiences and nice syndication fees.

******************************************

Thanks Stanley and RIP ... "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" is one of my all time favorites

16127. Frankster - 2/20/2001 5:10:50 AM

Hmmmmm, why didn't my link work ?

16128. Fielding - 2/20/2001 10:03:24 AM

Ace:

It is not Diva, which I've seen a few times, and which came out a few years before the movie I am describing.

A bateau mouches is a boat.


CalGal:

I tried imdb before I posted, without luck.

The thug in Diva is not heavy-set.

If you know of a way of searching based on what I described, I would sure appreciate the help.

16129. Cellar Door - 2/20/2001 10:17:20 AM

A heavy-set thug suggests Jean Reno.

16130. Fielding - 2/20/2001 10:33:14 AM

He had blond hair.

16131. MsIvoryTower - 2/20/2001 10:42:26 AM

Particularly with dramas, the strain on the cast, writers, and crew is so great that they can't turn out more episodes.

Personally this is my favorite.

It's just so much work, dearie, we can't take the strain!

16132. CalGal - 2/21/2001 5:26:10 AM

Billy Elliot:

An 11 year old kid (Jamie Bell) living in a northern English mining town just wants to be a ballet dancer, despite the ferocious disapproval of his widowed father and brother, both burly and near thuggish miners. Billy toughs out the disapproval and yes, follows his heart.

Set against the backdrop of a nasty (and actual) union strike in the mid-80s, the story is fairly predictable; the execution and interaction of the characters is not. It would not work without Bell's phenomenal performance, although he is ably supported by Geoffrey Lewis and Jamie Draven as brother and father, Julie Walters as his blowsy but supportive dance instructor and Stuart Wells as his best friend who is the "poof" that Billy is not.

Sentimental at times, but in all the best ways. The dance scenes are exceptional--watch closely, and you'll see that many scenes are "choreographed"; Billy may be the only member of his family who wants to dance, but it is clear he inherits his ability for grace in motion.

Cellar's comments mentioned that the movie is about "the effects of being gay without actually dealing with gayness" and I think that's an accurate observation. But the story touches on class and family dynamics as well, and scores nicely on all counts. Very sweet, very "little", and very worthwhile. I think it's only in second run theaters, but look for it on video.

16133. JudithAtHome - 2/21/2001 12:03:04 PM

Is anyone else watching A House Divided on PBS? It is wonderful and is giving me a better understanding of the Civil War...I find myself feeling so sorry for Lincoln. Both of them...she obviously needed Prozac and he needed something, too. Such tragedy in their lives.

Lincoln was a self-educated man and wrote eloquently...without speechwriters, I might add.

16134. robertjayb - 2/22/2001 3:49:41 PM

Tonight is the last of Inspector Morse on Mystery.. Too bad. I'll have an extra pint in his memory. Forget the moaning over the death of Dale Earnhardt---this is a genuine tragedy.

16135. JudithAtHome - 2/22/2001 3:51:17 PM

Is this really the last one? Ohmygod...I love that guy! Is there any place we can leave flowers?

16136. robertjayb - 2/22/2001 4:16:44 PM

Yes, this is it for Morse. The two-hour finale will be preceded by a documentary on the show.

On top of the death of the inspector, further bad news is that the PBS president has cut funding to the sponsoring station (WGBH, Boston) and is talking about reinventing the series with American writers.

16137. Cellar Door - 2/22/2001 4:26:38 PM

Paragraph 175.

16138. CalGal - 2/22/2001 4:28:53 PM

What a sad movie that sounds like, Cellar.

16139. rubberducky - 2/22/2001 4:29:47 PM

great, if chilling, shuff, CD

16140. JudithAtHome - 2/22/2001 4:30:49 PM

Great review, Cellar...

16141. JudithAtHome - 2/22/2001 4:32:22 PM

robert:

and is talking about reinventing the series with American writers

Oh yeah, THAT will make everyone feel better. Jeez.....................

16142. Cellar Door - 2/22/2001 6:18:35 PM

Actually the cumulative effect isn't all that sad. The fact that these people have lived to tell about their experiences -- so eloquently-- is enormously moving.

16143. ScottLoar - 2/22/2001 6:23:34 PM

Yes, the pain of just being different, through no fault of our own, and most often not even by choice.

16144. Cellar Door - 2/22/2001 6:57:55 PM

Well it's more than that, actually. One of the men in the film is 96 years old, and has lived in the same building his entire life. Rather humbling to see such a person -- especially in light of his experiences. For not only was he in and out of prison under the Third Reich for being gay, he was in and out of prison for the same "offense" years afterwards.

16145. ScottLoar - 2/22/2001 7:09:20 PM

Yes, my comment seems trite in comparison. I didn't intend to trivialize the experiences of these men by comparing them to persons who are simply different. These men were visited by a terrible injustice.

16146. Cellar Door - 2/22/2001 7:42:38 PM

The great thing is they survived with their wits intact.

16147. Fielding - 2/22/2001 9:50:59 PM

Cellar:

Wow.

16148. Cellar Door - 2/22/2001 11:38:28 PM

Thanks, Fielding. I've loved Rob and Jeffrey to bits for years, but they've really outdone themselves with this one.

16149. JudithAtHome - 2/23/2001 1:24:18 PM