I was in downtown Windhoek today, the capital city of Namibia. Since Namibian independence in 1990 one of the primary issues for Namibians has been "land reform." All that basically means is take the land from the whites (Afrikaners and Germans, who stole the land in the first place so the argument goes) and give it to the rightful owners, the black Namibians.
SWAPO, the political party in power and the main opposition against the Apartheid regime (SWAPO=South West Africa People's Organization) made promises of such land reforms, but have realized that actually doing so is quite difficult to enact. For starters, Namibia barely produces enough food for its own people, and if the rains are bad in a given year, imports from South Africa are required. To simply take the land from people who know it and can produce from it, and give it to people that cannot do these things, would be unwise economically for the country, and potentially disasterous.
OK, today I am walking downtown and there is a protest march going through the streets. I moved to the front of the crowd gathered to watch it, one of the few white faces present at the moment. Some of the protesters marching saw me standing there and as they marched past, they started pointing at me and then waving "backhandedly" at me, as if to say, "Get out of our country whiteman." It was unnerving to say the least. I was tempted to say, "I'll give you all the land I own!" (I don't own any!) But I thought better about it!
2. marjoribanks - 9/17/1999 1:41:21 PM
Kuligin the Hooligan lives in Namibia, a place which he has spent some years in already, and a place almost never written about in the popular media. This is an invaluable opportunity to learn at length about life in Namibia, and I am sure we will learn a lot, and enjoy seeing the country though the eyes of KuligintheHooligan.
Thanks for taking the project on, Hooligan. I hope you'll begin by outlining at some length why you are there, what you do, where you live, and something about the history of Namibia.
And hopefully someone more competent than me will illustrate your diary with some maps and perhaps some photographs.
3. KuligintheHooligan - 9/17/1999 1:55:49 PM
If I may ask, someone with the know-how to do so, could you paste in a map of Namibia? Then a map of the African continent, just so we get a picture as to where Namibia is? That would be great.
4. KuligintheHooligan - 9/17/1999 1:56:26 PM
Also, is there an ability for me to scan in some photos I have taken of the landscape and people of Namibia? Please someone let me know.
5. marjoribanks - 9/17/1999 2:42:22 PM
The answer to your question, Hooligan is yes. However, despite having the process explained to me several times I still haven't figured out how to produce pictures here. I'll tell you what I would do: go find a link to the maps you're talking about. Then ask PP to do it, he's very good at it.
6. phillipdavid - 9/18/1999 12:40:10 AM
7. phillipdavid - 9/18/1999 12:41:18 AM
8. phillipdavid - 9/18/1999 12:44:51 AM
Kuligin,
Do you have access to a scanner? If so, I can instruct you how to create a webpage that you can upload your scanned pictures to, which you can then link to, or show directly (like the map above) here.
9. KuligintheHooligan - 9/18/1999 4:20:08 AM
PD, thanks for the help! Yes, I do have a scanner. E-mail me at
V_Kuligin@mweb.com.na
and tell me what to do.
********************
Brief Historical Sketch of Namibia:
The land currently known as Namibia was colonized by the Germans in the late 1800s. It was hence known as "German South West Africa." The Germans were here until World War 1 when they lost do the South African army. One of the things the Germans did during their time here, something still very much remembered, was attempt to exterminate the Herero people. I have read estimates that as much as 60+% of the Herero were annihilated by the Germans. Many others fled to Botswana during that time. (incidentally, the Herero have a special day everyday, properly called 'Herero Day,' and this past one they drafted a letter to Germany calling for them to apologize for the attrocities in question). The other main legacy left by the Germans was Lutheranism, and over half the population claims to be Lutheran (the only such country on the entire continent).
OK, at the time of WW1, RSA was controlled by the English. South West Africa became a sort of South African principality, and when the Apartheid regime came into power in RSA in 1948, Namibia fell under that type of rule.
Namibia began to look for its own independence as RSA was "raping" the land of its valuable minerals and diamonds, but was putting little into the country. In the late 1960s the United Nations recognized Namibian independence on paper, and gave the land its own name, Namibia, named after the Namib desert which runs the entire Western coastline, and is supposedly the oldest desert in the world. (cont. later)
10. phillipdavid - 9/18/1999 11:56:53 AM
Kuligin,
I sent off a message to the above email address, but it was just returned. I resent it to a yahoo address you posted once.
11. ScottLoar - 9/18/1999 1:19:08 PM
Reading your posts with great expectation as what has passed is fine stuff. More, please.
12. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/19/1999 1:29:03 AM
Vic:
Fine stuff. I look forward to more of your reports.
If you'd like me to post any scanned pictures on my wesite so you can link the urls here, I'd be happy to. Just send them to me at the usual e-mail address.
13. pellenilsson - 9/19/1999 3:08:04 AM
Thank you Vic. This will be interesting. Like marj I do hope you will be able to tell us a little about why you are there and what you are doing.
As a history buff I feel a need to say something about Namibia's status after WW1.
The peace left the status of territories once controlled by the losing sides unclear. In Europe, new nations were created (Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia) or old ones re-created (Poland). The former Turkish territories in the Middle East and the German colonies in Africa were technically transferred to the League of Nations. The League handed out "mandates", i.e. it entrusted certain nations to adminstrate the territories and to guide them towards independence. In the Middle East, France got Syria and Lebanon and the UK the rest. In Africa, the UK became the mandatory power for Tanganyika, the former German East Africa, and South Africa was entrusted with what is now Namibia. Misplaced trust, it would turn out.
14. pellenilsson - 9/19/1999 3:10:10 AM
Vic
Why did the Germans do that to the Hereros?
15. KuligintheHooligan - 9/19/1999 6:18:45 AM
Irving, thanks for the offer of assistance, and PD, I got the directions you sent to my e-mail address. The one I posted here was indeed in error. Sorry about that!
pelle, it is generally thought that the Hereros gave the Germans the most resistance. The other peoples in SWA weren't nearly so forceful or vocal about their opposition to the Colonial occupation. There is also something called the "Herero War" where they went to battle against the Germans, and got miserably slaughtered.
****************
Namibia began a "bush war" against the South Africans, in the hopes of obtaining their own independence. Many leaders fled for refuge to neighboring countries like Angola. Over the course of time, economic sanctions against the Apartheid regime damaged South Africa's ability to keep hold of Namibia as a "principality" or "protectorate," and in 1990 Namibia won its Independence from RSA. Apartheid was done, at least in Namibia (and as a side bit of trivia, Namibia is supposedly the LAST African nation to free itself from "colonial" rule.)
We have now had almost a decade of independence. People are at times divided as to how good it has been for the country. The economy stinks, and I have seen numbers as high as 60% for unemployment. There is virtually no manufacturing sector here; agriculture employs the most people, followed unfortunately by the government, where there is already much nepotism and corruption. In some ways, some Namibians simply traded a white taskmaster for a black one (my opinion).
For example, President Sam Nujoma, an Owambo man (the Owambo comprise 50% of the population, the rest distributed among ~9 other people groups), was only allowed to run for two 5-year terms, per the constitution.(cont)
16. KuligintheHooligan - 9/19/1999 6:23:22 AM
Well, with the last election, SWAPO gained over 70% of the popular vote, so they had the right to change the constitution. And in this very young democracy, they did so, so that Nujoma could run again. This was a BIG mistake, changing the constitution in essence for one man. The SWAPO argument was, "There isn't anybody qualified to run the country other than Nujoma." Of course, they did have 9 years to rectify that, even if it were true.
The difficulty with democracies in Africa, in general (and again, this is my opinion, do I need to keep saying that?!) is the "tribal chief" mentality. Once the guy is in power, he stays there until he dies, much like the tribal chief would do. Probably one of the best things that could have happened here is for someone else to have a shot at the Presidency, somebody like the Prime Minister Hage Geingob (but unfortunately, since he is Damara and not Owambo, he will probably never be the Prez). That is what makes what Mandela did in RSA so much more incredible - the guy actually, willingly stepped down! He could have been re-elected in a heartbeat too.
Most gov't ministers have gov't vehicles, and not just "average" ones, no, they drive BMWs and Mercedes. The waste in the gov't is horrendous.
More later, as I will report on the terrain of Namibia and why I am here.
17. KuligintheHooligan - 9/19/1999 8:00:34 AM
Namibia is a dry and arid land. The Nama have an old name for the land, in their mother tongue, that roughly means, "The land God made when he was angry." It is a large chunk of land, the size of the NE portion of the US from Maine down to NC, including NY and PA. But it only has the population of Vermont.
The reason is quite simple. Most of the land is uninhabitable. There are only two perennial rivers in the country, the Okavango which forms the northern border with Angola, and the Orange which forms the southern border with RSA. In other words, there are NO rivers within the interior of the country.
What I mean by "perennial" is simply rivers that flow year-round. There are tons of dry "river" beds in the interior that will flow when the heavy rains come. One important river of the past was the Swakop River. In 1997, we had incredibly strong rains for most of Feb, and the river "flowed" for the first time in seven years. It flowed for 2 or 3 days and that was it.
So the land is dry. We get something like 14" of rain per year in Windhoek on average. So we rely on man-made dams around the city, about nine of them. We are still working off the rain water we received back in Feb 97. Pretty much from March until Oct we get no rain at all. And then if the "early rains" come late or don’t come at all, we have to wait for the "late rains" in Jan/Feb.
The land is characterized by a high plateau and savannahs, or bush, and desert. We are about 5000 feet high here in Windhoek. The Namib desert runs the entire length of the Western, Atlantic coastline, about 60 miles inland. The Kalahari Desert is in the East, but about 90% of that is in Botswana.
18. KuligintheHooligan - 9/19/1999 8:02:27 AM
Another strange thing about Namibia. We have seals and penguins! The Benguela currents run up the coastline from the South Pole, making the water quite cold, even in the summer time. Namibia has the largest cape seal colony of any mainland in the world, tens of thousands of them. We also have penguins living on a small island off the SW of the country. Then there are the desert lions and desert elephants, another unique feature. Perhaps some have seen the National Geographic special on PBS where they had footage of a lion coming up from the desert and killing a seal on the coast. An incredible thing to see!
*******************
My wife and I came to Namibia in 1994 with a 2-year old daughter and a 4-month old son. We have since had two more daughters, both born here. I came here to teach in a seminary in Windhoek, but for the first two years we spent our time in Grootfontein (Afrikaans for "large fountain," something there is no trace of now!) learning the language and people, and running a youth center there.
Another bit of stupid trivia: At Grootfontein lies the Hoba Meteorite, the largest meteorite in the world.
I have learned to speak Afrikaans, but have only learned simple greetings in other "black" languages like otjiHerero, otjiWambo, and Nama/Damara. The latter are the "clicking" languages you may have seen in "The Gods Must Be Crazy" (the film’s star was a Namibian bushman who blew his earnings in the local pub in Grootfontein!). When Namibia won its independence (Mar. 21, 1990) they had a tough choice to make about official language. Unlike RSA, which chose I believe three languages as their "official" languages (English, Afrikaans, and Zulu), Namibia was just too small to choose more than one (pop. ~ 1.8 million, RSA ~ 45 mil.).
19. KuligintheHooligan - 9/19/1999 8:03:49 AM
They couldn’t pick any of the "black" tongues at the exclusion of the others, and although Afrikaans was the vernacular that everyone pretty well knew, it was the language of the oppressor and was only known in the African sub-continent. So they chose English, even though at the time only about 4% of the people could speak it!
After our 2 years in Grootfontein, we moved to Windhoek and have lived here in the Katutura suburb of the capital. Katutura was the black location during Apartheid. In other words, the blacks HAD TO live there. (generally speaking, any city would have the whites living in the downtown areas or close to the city, the Coloureds, a distinct people group which are a mix of black and white or white and Malaysian, etc, lived further out, and then the blacks lived furthest away from the city). In otjiHerero, "Katutura" roughly means, "we don’t want to live here." We are the only whites as far as I know that live here.
I teach at a seminary which serves several churches in Namibia. Keep in mind that the Lutherans comprise ~50% of the pop, and they have their own seminary. Over 90% of Namibians claim to be Christian, a number higher than that of the USA! The Catholics represent ~20% so our seminary serves much of the remainder: various Reformed churches, Pentecostal, Rhenish, Evangelical, Baptist, Independent, and so on. We are the only "evangelical" institution of this level in Namibia.
20. KuligintheHooligan - 9/19/1999 8:04:42 AM
I should define that term so there is no confusion. When I use the term "evangelical" I mean the following: belief that Jesus Christ died for us and through his substitutionary atonement paid the penalty for our sins; salvation involves putting one’s faith in the completed work of Jesus, because we are unable to save ourselves, since perfection is required to please God; thus the "perfection" or righteousness earned by Jesus is imputed to all those who put their faith in him; belief that the Bible is God’s Word and our sole authority for living the Christian life. That is it in a nutshell. We are not denominational but inter-denominational. Our goal is to train Namibian pastors and church leaders so that they are adequately prepared to preach from God’s Word and to lead their churches in the purity of the Gospel.
And just so you know, we could not be here unless the church in Namibia requested us to be here.
Courses I teach are Early & Medieval Church History, Reformation & Modern Church History, Cults, Apologetics, Doctrine of God, Inductive Bible Study, the Pastoral Epistles, and others.
**************************
At this point I’ll leave it at that and answer any questions that may exist. Or if there are other particular topics that need addressing, please let me know. Otherwise, from now on I will just make "observations" about living in Namibia as they arise.
21. KuligintheHooligan - 9/19/1999 11:56:19 AM
It occurred to me that I should include something about the peoples of Namibia.
Of the ~1.8 million people here, 5% are whites (Afrikaners and Germans mainly), 5% are Coloureds and the remaining 90% blacks. The Owambo comprise 50% of the total population, and the remaining 40% are Herero, Kwangali, Caprivian (various people groups), Bushmen, Nama, and Damara.
Whenever I go downtown Windhoek, I am always amazed at how eclectic the city is. Not only do I see a variety of whites and blacks, but many Asian faces as well. And with the relatively small population of Windhoek (~400,000) I think it jumps out at you more when you see a "different" face.
The mission with whom I work is the same thing. Of the only ~40 adults, we have people from America, Germany, Switzerland, South Africa, Zambia, Korea, Australia, Wales, England, and Ireland.
Personally, I have been greatly enriched by contact from such a diverse group of people!
22. ProfEmeritus - 9/19/1999 7:13:26 PM
Kuligan
Very interesting account of life in that arid corner of Africa. From your account, one would think Namibia would be one of the world's least developed countries economically. However, the World Bank shows per capita income as $2,220 for 1997, 57th in the world while Pelle's Mozambique ranks number 133. Also Namibia's growth rate in the 90s is reported to be quite respectable, with GDP growing at 4.1% per year.
Naturally this makes one ask how good their basic statistics are. Does Namibia have a central planning agency? Does she receive any economic aid; if so, from whom? Are there any foreign economists there as advisers?
If Germany took over the area in the late 1800s, where do the Dutch names like Windhoek and Grootfontein come from? Was Namibia once under control of the Boers?
Given the high religious affiliation, is AIDS a seriuous problem as elsewhere in Africa?
You have evoked my interest in Namibia, and I look forward to your replies to my probably naive queries.
23. KuligintheHooligan - 9/20/1999 5:16:44 PM
ProfE, excellent questions, not naive in the least.
Namibia benefitted from South African rule in many ways. For example, we have an excellent road system and drinkable water from the tap. The Afrikaners brought many technological advances that have benefitted Namibia.
I'd be curious where South Africa falls on that World Bank scale. Is it the highest of the African countries, that would be my guess?
Concerning aide, about 2 years ago I logged on to a website for Namibia and saw that the United Nations Dev Project was giving Namibia $600 MILLION US between the years 1996 - 2000!!! I was shocked! That is a huge amount of money for this country. If one looks around, one can't help but wonder how much of that money has filled the pockets of gov't officials, unfortunately.
As you know, South Africa was controlled by the Boers for many years. So the language of Afrikaans was important even beyond the Orange river into "Namibia." Names such as Windhoek (meaning "windy corner") came, then, from this Boer influence. And for roughly 70 years Namibia was under South African rule.
As for AIDS, I get a United Nations report via e-mail on southern Africa from "Zaire" on down. About 8 months ago they reported that Namibia was one of the THREE WORST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD for AIDS. And in Namibia, the town of Grootfontein where we lived for two years is considered the worst place in the country.
Here's an awful story I just heard last week. In the far north, the Caprivi region, deaths due to AIDS is a real problem. It is especially hitting the public schools, where in just one district alone, 30 teachers died of AIDS in the last TWO years! The other problem is that many of the teachers have sex with the students. The AIDS epidemic in Namibia is quite real and frightening.
24. ProfEmeritus - 9/20/1999 8:51:49 PM
Kuligin
Thanks for the thorough and interesting response. I am not surprised by anything except the high incidence of AIDS. The South African per capita GNP in the same year (1997)was $3400 which gave it 45th rank among all the countries covered. So South Africa was ahead of Namibia. I haven't checked all the African countries, but I think you are right in guessing that South Africa ranks highest.
25. KuligintheHooligan - 9/22/1999 2:47:26 PM
Yesterday we became another victim of what is probably one of the top three problems in Namibia: Crime (I'd say unemployment is first, then crime, which results from the first, then AIDS).
I was downtown last night and came back to my car to see that someone had tried to break into it. They didn't, but in the process they ruined the lock on the driver's side door. Just a pain in the royal behind.
We have actually been very blessed our time here. In both places that we have lived, we were the only whites in the black neighborhood, so we have always been quite conspicuous. But we have never had our house broken into, and this is the first time that we know of that someone tried to break into our car (we did have something stolen twice from our car, but both times like idiots we left a door unlocked!).
Crime is increasing at a scary rate, and the police are basically inept. My car was parked in a well-lit area yesterday evening, but it is my guess that others saw someone messing around with it and just did nothing about it. The criminals are getting bolder and bolder as they realize that the law is quite inept at detering theft and such.
26. tckrulak - 9/22/1999 10:16:12 PM
Vic,
Very much enjoying your work here. Keep it up!!!
27. KuligintheHooligan - 9/23/1999 11:34:03 AM
JOHANNESBURG, 22 September (IRIN) - About 20 more Namibians from the
Caprivi Strip have crossed the border into Botswana since the outbreak
of an armed attack in the strip last month, joining the 1,055 other
Namibian refugees in the Dukwe camp, 'The Namibian' quoted a Botswana
presidential spokesman as saying.
The spokesman, Andrew Sesinyi reportedly said of the 1,055 Namibians in
Dukwe, 175 have applied through UNHCR to be repatriated to Namibia.
However, UNHCR has since suspended the repatriation exercise following
the attack on Katima Mulilo by armed secessionists, which left at least
14 people dead in its wake.
The exodus of Caprivians started last October when a group of about 100
people, led by Mishake Muyongo, a former opposition party politician,
crossed into Botswana and asked for political asylum claiming they
feared for their lives because of their association with the
pro-secessionist Caprivi Liberation Army.
Meanwhile, detainees facing charges of treason and public violence in
the Grootfontein Magistrate's court, following the armed attack,claimed
in court on Tuesday that they were tortured while in detention. Four of
the 23 accused, testifying in support of their bail application,claimed
they had been assaulted either with sjamboks to their backs or rifle
butts by at least three policemen after they were arrested on 4 August. (cont)
28. KuligintheHooligan - 9/23/1999 11:34:43 AM
Among the 23 accused is a 62-year-old father of 18 children with four
wives; a principal of of a combined school; a college lecturer; an
executive producer at the Namibian Broadcasting Corporation; a
government driver and a teacher.
At the same time, former MP Godfrey Mwilima was remanded in custody
until January next year when he will appear on treason charges.Mwilima,
who appeared in the Windhoek Magistrate's court last Friday, reportedly
told reporters after his appearance that he was not well.
"I have been permanently disabled," he reportedly said, showing
bloodied, broken finger nails on his left hand. Mwilima is alsoreported
to have suffered a broken jaw, some of his teeth were broken and the
skin on his back was shredded when he was assaulted six weeks ago
following his arrest. He is reportedly being held at the Windhoek
Central prison in a single cell.
29. pellenilsson - 9/23/1999 11:44:55 AM
More about this please! A seccessionist movement in the Caprivi strip? What for? What is their ideological base? And so on. I'm not joking Vic. I'm really interested.
30. KuligintheHooligan - 9/24/1999 5:22:12 AM
pelle
In early August there was a successionist revolt in Katima Mulilo, the capital of the Caprivi Region. This came as quite a shock to a lot of people, but actually, things had been simmering for quite some time up there.
Just a little historical background. When Namibia was German South West Africa, the Germans wanted inland access to their colony up in Tanganyika, so they purchased land from the British, a small strip running off the far NE corner of Namibia, giving them access to the Zambezi River. The thing is, though, that the peoples that live on that strip of land are not "normal" Namibian peoples, but rather Zambian and Botswanan people groups, like the Losi and the Mbukushu people.
Come 1990 Independence, and the Caprivi, generally ignored anyway by the South African rulers, is not even further ignored (so they claim) by the SWAPO gov't which is largely Owambo people. The Caprivians claim that gov't money is not coming to their region, etc. etc.
Complaining continued for several years, then in mid-1998 people began to flee the Caprivi and seek asylum in Botswana. The elections were coming up in Nov and Caprivians were complaining that the police and military were harrassing them up there. Before the elections, the Caprivi Region was the ONLY region in Namibia not controlled by SWAPO. Well, as it turned out, SWAPO won the region during the last elections! Was there foul play involved?!
31. KuligintheHooligan - 9/24/1999 5:27:31 AM
While we were back home on furlough, one of the most frequently asked questions was, "Is Namibia safe?" And you really can't blame people, with all the war and fighting going on around the African continent. And we would tell people that Namibia is probably one of the safest countries in Africa.
Then about 5 days after we return, CNN has as one of its headline stories that day the fighting in Katima! Friends and family were not impressed, let me tell you!
Anyway, after a "state of emergency" which lasted about a month, nothing has happened further. But the Caprivians do not feel a real part of Namibia, mainly because of distance and culture. Some have talked about forming their own country, which is really quite a joke since they are dirt poor as it is and there isn't much up there to build a country on, economically at least. But the vast majority of Caprivians are not interested in secession at all.
And the leader of the whole Caprivi Liberation Movement, whose name unfortunately escapes me at the moment (Mamili I think) is in exile in Denmark at the moment.
32. pellenilsson - 9/24/1999 11:59:38 AM
Very interesting, Kuligan. Thank you. Let's hope sto reads this. Maybe something has been mentioned in Danish newspapers. And if not he can tip them off about the freedom fighter Denmark is hosting!
33. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:24:54 PM
Kuligin said in #16:
That is what makes what Mandela did in RSA so much more incredible - the guy actually, willingly stepped down! He could have been re-elected in a heartbeat too.
34. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:26:03 PM
(I don't understand his reference to rugby, my father always makes references to rugby and cricket I don't understand.)
I suppose he's right. Then all that reminded me of Socko's cavilling about Nelson Mandela in the old Fray.
Of course, this newfangled earnestness could be a cynical ploy to provide a non-cynical milieu for my half-brother and half-sister, who are so young that they could be my own children.
35. pseudoerasmus - 9/24/1999 1:30:52 PM
Kuligin, could you talk about the 20,000 or so Germans still resident in Namibia? What do they do mostly? What are they like politically?
36. pellenilsson - 9/25/1999 4:05:23 AM
PE
I believe that in SA rugby is (was?) seen as the ultimate 'white man's sport'so Mandela's presence had high symbolic value.
37. KuligintheHooligan - 9/25/1999 4:24:03 AM
PseudoE,
Great comments from your father! Pelle is correct about the rugby too. When RSA came out of Apartheid (pronounced in Afrikaans "apart-hate," a rather appropriate pronunciation)(it means "seperateness," the -heid suffix meaning "-ness" in English), their rugby team was as he said the "ultimate white man's sport." They of course pulled off the most incredible feat, winning the Rugby World Cup! And when they did, there was Mandela talking about "our boys," this first black president of RSA standing there with this group of white rugby players calling them "our boys!" I get goose pimples even now as I type this. I must have heard that story from WHITE South Africans half a dozen times.
I also recently heard on the radio that this World Cup RSA team is the FIRST integrated team, but I can't believe that is correct. I distinctly remember some big black man on the previous team, Chester something or other, but perhaps I am wrong.
Personally, I wish PE's father could say the same sorts of things about Namibia's president, Sam Nujoma, but unfortunately he cannot!
PE, as for your questions about the Germans, I'll get to that in a bit.
Seen on an office wall here in Windhoek, I got a kick out of this one:
"The Americans have Bill Clinton as President. They have Stevie Wonder, Johnny Cash, and Bob Hope.
We have Sam Nujoma as President. We have no wonder, no cash, no hope."
38. pellenilsson - 9/26/1999 8:55:31 AM
May I suggest something? Why not decribe an ordinary day of your life in Windhoek? A 'composite' day, if you want.
39. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/26/1999 1:07:47 PM
Kuligin:
Your comments on South Afrca and Apartheid remind me of a conversation I had last week with a fellow from South Africa. He said all of the following:
• "Security is a huge problem now. But we've found the answer. It's called 'AIDs'."
• "There's a bumper sticker making the rounds which says 'Give Apartheid a Second Chance.' And 90% of the blacks share that sentiment."
• "White South Africans have never been racist, not like Rhodesians. My maid bosses me around!"
• "Apartheid was a criminal system. But it worked."
40. KuligintheHooligan - 9/26/1999 3:23:18 PM
Irv, those are some *incredible* statements! I don't think I'd see those coming from the lips of Namibians, not yet anyway. The crime problem is not nearly as big here as it is in RSA, and I don't think the Namibians sense yet how awful the gov't is running things, or how bad the economy is getting.
pelle, I'll do what you suggest, but first I want to answer some of PE's questions about the Germans. Tomorrow I'd like to also recount a conversation I had with my nearly-7 year old daughter, wherein she said, "I don't like black people."
PseudoErasmus, there isn't a very large German population in Namibia. I have seen the 20k figure as well, but if I had taken a guess, I would have thought it a bit larger than that. Many of the Germans are still farmers and own a fair amount of the land, while others are involved in municipalities and the like. I will make some random comments about them.
- Even before coming to Namibia I read about the Germans and their attitude here, especially concerning Nazism. One comment I distinctly recall was that they had the mentality, "Well, the European Germans may have lost the war, but we didn't!" And that there was a large amount of Nazi "memorabilia" in certain parts of Namibia. Since coming here, I have found that the Germans -especially those residing at the coast, like in Swakopmund - are still strongly racist. I was in Swakop one weekend (a very nice coastal city) and there was a sort of "Germanfest" then. The Germans were in the streets partying, playing good German music and drinking beer. Then an incredible thing happened. They started to "sich heil" which I was entirely shocked to see, arms in the air and everything. Of course, they were only joking around, right? I'm not sure what they were thinking, but it shocked me, even if "all" they were doing was joking around. (cont)
41. KuligintheHooligan - 9/26/1999 3:27:53 PM
- With Afirmative Action, the Germans are starting to feel it in their own communities. Jobs they formerly had, particularly in the gov't like municipalities, they are beginning to lose, being replaced by black Namibians. I heard comments to the effect that the German community was feeling, for the first time, the pressures of unemployment.
- Politically, I think the Germans still hold out hope that whites will rule again. That is just a hunch mind you. But they aren't too involved in politics, being so minor of an influence.
One quick story. While I lived in Grootfontein, there was a wholesaler there where I would buy food. It was owned by a German. One day I was standing in line to pay for my goods and he came up to me. We spoke briefly, then a black guy came wondering in, holding a beer. The store owner was furious and yelled at the guy to get out of his store. Then he turned to me and said: "You can take the black out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the black."
I think that summed up the opinion of many a white in Namibia, particularly the Germans. Not that the Afrikaners were any less racist, but my impression is that the Afrikaner viewed his position over a black as more a "steward" of the black, than as a "lord." What I mean by that is, the Afrikaner had a sense of responsibility for the blacks, to care for them in some way, even though they still viewed them as inferior. I could argue why I think their Reformed Christianity had something to do with that, as opposed to the Lutheranism of the Germans, if anybody was interested. But for now, I have to run.
42. thrakkorzog - 9/26/1999 10:14:29 PM
Actually, I would be interested in a contrast between Reformed Christianity and Lutheranism and how that might affect attitudes of the adherants of each. Could you also give a brief summary of what Reformed Christianity is?
43. harper - 9/27/1999 6:24:33 PM
Hi Vic. Nice to hear from you again. A question for you: Do you think the artificially (and European)-created national borders should give way to countries based on tribal or ethnic membership? Do you think that would end much of the intertribal warring? (OK, that's 2 questions)
44. stostosto - 9/28/1999 11:09:14 AM
Kuligin
The exiled Namibian freedom fighter/terrorist is called Mishake Muyongo.
I found this tidbit on a site which won't let me see the related full article:
"Personer, der beskyldes for at stå i ledtog med den i Danmark bosiddende namibiske oprørsleder, Mishake Muyongo, er blevet udsat for systematisk tortur af sikkerhedsstyrker i Namibia. "
For those unable to read Danish:
"Persons accused of being connected to the Namibian rebel leader Mishake Muyungo who is residing in Denmark, have been exposed to systematic torture by security forces in Namibia". (Jyllands-Posten Aug. 21, 1999).
45. stostosto - 9/28/1999 12:00:02 PM
A bit more on Muyongo - who actually is accompanied in Denmark by a certain Mamili, as Vic correctly thought he might remember in an earlier post.
Southern African Press Review
Issue 7 Background 16 May 1999
NAMIBIA: Caprivi secessionist leaders leave for Denmark
JOHANNESBURG, 6 May (IRIN) - Denmark has granted residence rights to two Namibian secessionist leaders that had sought political asylum in
Botswana, UNHCR told IRIN on Thursday.
Former opposition leader Mishake Muyongo and Chief Boniface Mamili left Botswana on Monday for Denmark. Thirteen other separatist leaders, among the 2,500 Caprivians that fled Namibia for Botswana last year claiming persecution at home, are awaiting confirmation of which Western countries are to accept them.
Botswana granted the men asylum on condition they left for a third
country. Namibia had demanded their repatriation to face trial on treason and murder charges.
A UNHCR official said the fate of the 15 men was significant: "This is the entire political and traditional leadership of the Caprivians."
Among their followers sheltered at Dukwe refugee camp in Botswana, seven have returned home and some 30 have requested repatriation. "We definitely feel that the durable solution is repatriation. It will take time but we definitely feel that repatriation needs to be promoted," the official said.
The churches have intervened to build confidence and reconciliation
between the Caprivians and the Namibian government. UNHCR is also set to monitor their return. "The ordinary Caprivians with sufficient promotion could go back," the official added.
46. stostosto - 9/28/1999 12:01:00 PM
I can't remember having heard anything here about why this country has decided to take them in.
47. KuligintheHooligan - 9/28/1999 12:42:34 PM
I am so sorry that I haven't been here of late, but I have been crunched for time in a major way these last few days. I will definitely get back soon to address a number of points.
For now, though, thank you stostosto for posting that article. I'll try to address your question about Why Denmark? later.
Harper, great to see you! I hope you are doing well. The border question is a darn good one, and I'll give you my feeble thoughts later this week.
thrakkorzog, an easy moniker to remember! Thanks for the questions too. I'll give you a brief summary of Reformed thinking later in the week.
48. marjoribanks - 9/28/1999 12:55:06 PM
Kuligin,
Please also remember to recount the story about your conversation with your little daughter.
49. KuligintheHooligan - 9/30/1999 3:22:48 PM
My daughter and I, along with my son, were driving home from school one day. My daughter is nearly 7 and my son 5. We usually talk about a number of things during that time, normally them CONSTANTLY asking me questions about this or that. Anyway, my daughter says to me, "It's good that we're white isn't it?" I asked her why and she responded, "Because we can have more things." This comment amazed me, that somehow she associated being white with possessing more things. This isn't really necessarily true of us, as we are pretty much on par with our neighbors, but many of the whites that have children going to my daughter's school ARE rather well of in Namibian terms.
I explained to her that there are some whites that have more than we do and some that have less, but there are also some blacks that have more than we do, and some again that have less. It really didn't matter about their skin color (of course, in post Apartheid Namibia is DOES matter to some extent, but I'm not about ready to try explaining that one to her!).
Then she said what really shocked me: "I don't like black people." Keep in mind that we are BY FAR a small minority here, and in fact, as I explained earlier, we live in the former "black lokasie" of Windhoek, and even now, there aren't any other whites any where near where we live. I said to her, "But how can you say that? All your friends are black?!" She then explained a bit and I realized that she was just saying she didn't like *strangers* (ie, people she doesn't know) and actually since most people are black, this described most strangers! Most of the time my daughter is playing strictly with black kids at school and not the other whites anyway, as well as playing with our black neighbors. (cont)
50. pellenilsson - 10/1/1999 6:23:27 AM
sto
I should suppose that Denmark, like Sweden, has an agreement with UNHCR to receive a certain number of asylum seekers per year. In Sweden they are often referred to as "quota refugees".
51. KuligintheHooligan - 10/2/1999 10:06:26 AM
OK, now I have some time to address several matters that I have yet to address.
Harper, I am not an expert on the matter of country borders in Africa. My understanding is that the decision was made (by the UN??) to maintain the "colonial" borders instead of trying to draw up entirely new ones. Would certain ethnic problems be non-existent had different borders been created? Perhaps. But I think there would have been so much fragmentation in Africa that it would have become ridiculous.
Some of the borders make perfectly good sense. For example, Namibia’s northern border with Angola is the Okavango River, and its southern with RSA the Orange River. These borders make perfectly good sense, since they form *natural* boundaries. The border with Botswana I am not certain how it came into existence. But with the Caprivi, the border resulted from the Germans simply wanting access to a river and buying the land from the Brits. There is nothing "natural" about the border there. But what really can be done about it now??
On a side note, some 60 or so people have been brought to trial or will be concerning the Caprivian uprising. Reports are that the ones still in hiding are starving to death.
52. KuligintheHooligan - 10/2/1999 10:06:51 AM
PseudoErasmus, I spoke with a German-speaking Swiss colleague of mine here about the German community, as he is very involved with it. He characterized their stance here as "quiet resistance." They own much of the farm land and don’t want to make too much noise and give the gov’t more reason to take it from them. There really isn’t any party that would satisfy them anyway.
53. KuligintheHooligan - 10/2/1999 10:08:10 AM
Thor, my comment about Reformed theology versus Lutheran finds its root back in the founders of these "schools" of thought, Calvin and Luther. Both approached the Old Testament and the Law differently. While Luther saw the task of the Law complete, entirely, in the coming of the Messiah, Calvin saw the Law as still useful to the Church and something which should in principle be maintained.
These two notions have yielded entirely different consequences. For the Reformed, the error of legalism can be quite a problem in their churches, but for Lutherans, an antinomianism is the problem. There is such a de-emphasis in Lutheran thought on the Law that a "lawlessness" can prevail if they aren’t careful.
The other consequence is that in Lutheran thought the notion that the world is chaff is very strong. There isn’t much you can do about it except crush it when necessary. In Reformed thought, EVERYTHING is ultimately God’s and can therefore be "reformed," brought back to a godly intention and use.
Now take the role of whites in society. Apartheid theology saw the whites as God’s "stewards" of his creation. "Separateness" was necessary for the creation to run smoothly, since God ordained the distinctives and wants them to be recognized and maintained. For the decent Afrikaner Christian, then, he didn’t really see any injustice in what was happening. In fact, God ordained the separateness in the first place. Many took it as their God-given mandate to "care for" the blacks, to allocate land to them for their use, to start churches in their communities and bring them to Jesus, and so on.
My take on the Germans is that they were entirely disinterested - except for some missionary types - in caring for the blacks at all. They were chaff to them really. Whereas the Reformed thinking allocated blacks to the area of "ministry" the Germans didn’t care much at all about them.
These comments are terribly general.
54. KuligintheHooligan - 10/2/1999 10:09:48 AM
My story about my daughter I had hoped to complete, but couldn’t get back into the Mote to finish it then. All I will say now is that at times my kids recognize the strong differences between black and white and will make some striking comments to that effect. Then at other times, they will say something like, "Jesus made people different, but they are all good in his eyes." Things like that.
"Daily life" here in Namibia isn’t all that strange, contrary to what some might think. Windhoek strikes most people as rather first-world actually. The city is very clean, well organized and laid out, modern-looking with its newer buildings, not like other African cities which seem to be so confused and disorderly (at least from a Western perspective). We have a steady and reliable electricity system, we can drink water from the tap (although when the dams are low we boil the water), the road system is very nice and well maintained, in short, Windhoek isn’t your typical third-world city.
We own one vehicle, a Toyota Venture. Each weekday I get up around 6 am and get my two older kids to school by 7:15. It is a private school, affiliated with the Anglicans (special trivia: the smallest cathedral in the southern hemisphere is here in Windhoek, St. George’s cathedral). It costs about 7 times as much to send a student there than to a public school. I then usually go to the seminary, where we teach classes in the mornings. Afternoons I spend usually at home working on my class materials. My wife is home most days with our two youngest, but she is also involved in, for example, a sewing group where she teaches teenaged girls how to sew. Hopefully they will acquire a means of income this way, or can at least make some of their own clothing. She has also helped out at a handicapped school for young children. (cont)
55. KuligintheHooligan - 10/2/1999 10:10:38 AM
We have a very nice grocery store here from where we buy our food. There are ATMs from which I can draw money; and my Visa card can be used in most shops. There are numerous street vendors, but they can’t just be any old place. There are designated locations for them. Probably the biggest nuisance are the newspaper sellers who ubiquitous and are often your best pickpockets as well!
Beggars aren’t too numerous. They rarely "confront" you, but instead will sit there and rely on your charity. Many poorer types will come and offer to wash your car, or watch it while you shop, and such, for payment.
The matter of poor people is also difficult. Many times if you give them money, they go and get drunk with it. On the other hand, there are genuinely people in need that you want to help. I have made it a general principle to not give them money because many of them are drunk at the time they are asking for it!!
One story may be helpful. I stopped by a "convenience" store to buy some bread. Most of these shops are owned by Portuguese people, displaced from Angola, and therefore they are nicknamed "Portuguese shops." Anyway, there was a guy who came up to me as I parked the car asking for money, putting a pathetic look on his face and saying, "I am so hungry. I want to buy bread." Well, I have seen these types before, you can tell they are faking it, and when you give them money they go and get drunk on it. This guy looked rather ragged, though, so I thought about it while I went inside to shop. I came back out and he was there, "hitting on" anybody he could.(cont)
56. KuligintheHooligan - 10/2/1999 10:11:21 AM
Now at that point, it is far easier to give him a coin or two and be done with it. In fact, that is the strongest temptation. But I don’t want him to blow the money on something foolish, and if he really IS hungry, I want to help him. So I told him I’d buy him something, we went into the store, and he spent about 3 times as much as if I had just given him some money. I also asked the people in the shop about the guy, and they said that he was there just about every day begging.
These matters are difficult. When we lived in a more rural area our first two years here, the situation was a bit different, since then they’d come right to your house and beg! I wouldn’t give them money but food, and I’d see them walk down the street and throw the food away, when they had just told me they were starving to death! They wanted to buy booze or cigarettes usually instead. Others I would offer work to them, some yard work that I would normally have to make up, since I really didn’t need any yard work done. And many times, they’d ask for an "advance" against working the next day for me, I’d give it to them, and then they wouldn’t show up at all! Then there were the guys just coming around to see what they could later steal. (cont)
57. KuligintheHooligan - 10/2/1999 10:12:06 AM
All of these things present difficulties. The fact that I am white automatically means I am rich beyond measure too! One time, my neighbors had some old man visiting from the farm, and as soon as he saw me, he asked for money. No hello, nothing. The African proverb, "You have nothing so it doesn’t hurt to ask, because you may get something," is quite operative. Another visitor from the farm saw me and then proceeded to claim, in Afrikaans, that my dog had attacked him and had destroyed his pants, and that I should give him money so he could buy a new pair! I asked to see the pants my dog destroyed, supposedly earlier that morning, and he said he already threw them away. I asked him to pull up his pants legs now so I could see the damage my dog did to his legs. I reasoned that if my dog had shredded his pants while he was wearing them (something he claimed had happened) that surely his legs had been cut or scratched as well. No scratches. And besides, the hole in the fence my dog supposedly had gotten through wasn’t big enough for our cat!
Well, a neighbor boy came out and I asked him if the story was true. He said the old man was lying, at which point the man cursed at him. And as I left, the old man asked me for 2 rands so he could buy a drink!
58. pellenilsson - 10/6/1999 8:33:35 AM
Kuligin
No post for several days. Please do not abandon this venture. You mentioned that you teach in the mornings and prepare yourself in the afternoon. What do the students do in the afternoon?
Are you ordained? Do you ever give sermons in the local churches? (I know: in the Lutheran church you don't have to be ordained to do so).
You live in a black neighbourhood and did so in your previous posting as well. I suppose it is out of conviction. Please expand on that if you wish, but do not feel obliged in any way. I understand that you are well tolerated by your neighbours. But do they understand your motives? Or do they see you as "those crazy Americans who want to live where they don't really belong"?
59. stostosto - 10/7/1999 6:21:27 AM
Pelle #50:
I should suppose that Denmark, like Sweden, has an agreement with UNHCR to receive a certain number of asylum seekers per year. In Sweden they are often referred to as "quota refugees".
That's probably it.
60. KuligintheHooligan - 10/10/1999 12:36:23 PM
This past week has been a crazy, mad, busy week, so I apologize for not getting here sooner!
pelle, in many instances, missionaries would live on a "compound" or "station" or some such thing, where it seemed like the missionaries would do their "holy huddle" and not really relate to the people. We believe, though, that living in their midst it very important. The temptation here in Namibia, of course, is to live in the "white" areas and "visit" the black areas every so often. We didn't want to do that so we live in the "black" location.
Back in 1994 when we first came to Namibia, a lady in the bank where we were opening an account asked us where we were from and where we were going to live. We told her in Umulunga, which was literally across the tracks in the black location. She said, and I quote, "You came from America to live in Umulunga?! Are you crazy?!!" For the non-black Namibians, living in the black locations is really stupid to do as far as they are concerned.
As for the people that live in our neighborhood, they pretty much ignore us. What I mean is, the novelty of white people living here wore off pretty quickly. But when I am walking around the neighborhood, people that don't know that I live here find it rather odd that some white guy is walking around this neck of the woods. And I usually have several taxis stop and ask me if I want a lift (the assumption of course being that I couldn't possibly live here!).
61. KuligintheHooligan - 10/10/1999 12:44:02 PM
Yes, I am ordained, and I preach about 12-15 times per year. I'd like to do more of it, but at times I am just too busy with other things. This weekend, for example, I was asked to be the "quizmaster" for a Bible competition the area churches were having. It was a lot of fun. I drew up the questions and asked them of the teams, both Friday and Saturday evenings. I attempt to do a variety of things outside of teaching at the seminary, just to stay in touch with the people here.
In the afternoons, I am usually preparing lessons or grading tests or sitting on some committee somewhere. I also play basketball and volleyball, the latter with the students' team. I have played soccer with them too, but other than at goal, I stink at the sport!
My wife teaches a teenaged girls sewing class, and she has about 15 in the class currently. So sometimes I just have to watch our four kids while she is doing that! My eldest just turned 7 today, so let me tell you, it ain't easy. My wife is a saint!!
This past week was very busy outside of just my classes. I met with the bishop of the Church of England in South Africa to discuss working jointly in the seminary; I already mentioned the Bible competition; I met with a special delegation from a church from Orlando about various matters in Namibia; I sat on the bi-annual financial board of the seminary (did I mention I also am the Treasurer of the seminary?); I played volleyball with the students and we beat another seminary 4 games to nil; and there were other things, oh yeah, like my daughter's seventh b-day party!!
*********************
And with that, I have to run. I *do* plan to post some more things here, one in particular is the price of various goods here in Namibia, just for curiosity's sake. Hopefully this next week won't be quite so bad as the past one.
62. KuligintheHooligan - 10/12/1999 11:28:45 AM
The price of things:
All figures are in US dollars.
a loaf of bread ~$0.45
a gallon of milk ~ $3.00
It should be noted that the bread is fresh with basically no preservatives, so it goes bad quickly. And we don't use gallons of course here, but litres. The milk is also fresh, little preservatives, so it too goes bad quickly. In the States you can buy a gallon of milk and usually have it in the fridge for more than a week with no worries. The milk here goes bad in a couple of days. So, you can't even get containers larger than 2 litres, and usually we use it a litre at a time.
I like American milk much, much better!
63. KuligintheHooligan - 10/12/1999 12:48:31 PM
Petrol is actually quite reasonable in Namibia. Again, we purchase based on the litre, but a "gallon" of gas is $1.80 - $2 US, which really isn't bad all things considered. We have, though, had three price increases in the last five months. Also, the price fluctuates depending on how far you live from Walvis Bay, the coastal city to where the petrol is delivered by freighter. The further you are away, the higher the price, because it costs more to truck it there.
64. KuligintheHooligan - 10/12/1999 12:54:46 PM
pelle, I forgot to also mention that I am on the radio here in Namibia. I tape devotionals which are played in the 12 noon slot each weekday (not *every* week mind you).
******************
What if you want to watch videos? The video system here is PAL, not NTSC like in the States, so if you want to view both types of videos, you have to buy a multi-system unit. And when you get to electronic equipment, prices begin to move up considerably.
We have many children's videos from the States, so we needed a multi-system unit (then you need a multi-system TV as well!). At the time that we purchased our VCR, about three years ago, it cost us ~ $550 US! Not cheap, considering you can get a VCR in the States for a third of that. The unit I purchased was a Sony, on sale no less.
But even then I am limited. I can watch any PAL tapes, but only standard play NTSC tapes. We have had people tape some American TV shows for us using extended play, but my machine can't play those. The picture is horribly snowy, no color, and very grainy. We can sometimes view long play tapes though.
If I had wanted to get a multi-system VCR that could play extended play NTSC tapes, I would have had to shell out another $250 US, and I wasn't prepared to do that.
65. KuligintheHooligan - 10/13/1999 5:25:12 PM
Something a little more on the "spiritual" side. My neighbor came and told me that she was having terrible dreams, every night we a couple of weeks. In these dreams, large snakes were coming after her, attempting to kill her. She'd wake up terrified!
She wanted me to pray for her.
She believed that the dreams were caused by someone up in Owamboland putting a curse on her. She further believed that this was possible because she had lent some hair curlers to someone a few weeks back, and they could have taken one of her hairs from them and had the witchdoctor/traditional healer use it to make the curse.
Such beliefs are not uncommon here in Namibia. When I used to live in Grootfontein, my neighbor there had had several miscarriages and she blamed them on curses as well. In those cases, some man from the North would come and visit them or another neighbor and leave "bad medicine" that would cause her to miscarry. She had, if I recall correctly, four such miscarriages in about 3 years!
66. alistairConnor - 10/14/1999 4:49:37 AM
Vic, I just remembered that my brother in law is going to Namibia next week, for a two-week holiday. Strange but true. I'll encourage him to read this thread and ask questions.
67. KuligintheHooligan - 10/14/1999 11:29:41 AM
alistair,
Have him e-mail me at
v_kuligin@yahoo.com
if he has any particularly questions, or if he would like some direction on what to do and see here. I'd be happy to help him.
68. KuligintheHooligan - 10/17/1999 8:33:50 AM
This will give you some idea of how big a concern rainfall is in Namibia.
Last night on the news, they reported that in Windhoek we received 0.1 MILLIMETERS of rain!!
69. harper - 10/22/1999 1:45:16 PM
Regarding the guy trying to bum money to buy a drink:
I'm sure you've seen (in the States) people standing on street corners with signs that indicate they are a) Vietnam vets, b) homeless, c) a combination of a) nad b), and will work for food. One of the TV networks decided to test out the theory that these were, if not professional panhandlers, at least not what they said they were. Some one (not identified with the TV network) went around to as many panhandlers as he could find and offered them yard work at more than the minimum wage. He told them when and when to meet him the next day to start work. In all, he visited about a dozen panhandlers. The next day, ONE showed up.
People are the same all over.
Thanks for your descriptions and insights.
70. KULIGINthehooligan - 10/25/1999 3:59:58 PM
This past Sunday I preached a sermon from the book of James. The basic point was for our actions to properly reflect our beliefs. In short, "actions speak louder than words." One comment I made to this rather well-off black church was that UNICEF has determined that 50% of Namibians are "absolutely poor," the lowest category on the economic ladder. Then I asked the church what they were doing about those poor in our society.
Of course I knew that I would be hit by some beggar that same day, which happened. So here is some guy Sunday morning, after church, asking for help to buy some bread and soap to wash his clothes. His story wasn't new at all: he'd just come from Luderitz, a town a long ways away, and he wasn't starting work at his new job in the Northern Industrial location until Wednesday, so he needed help today to buy some things. I've heard that same sort of story numerous times.
We helped him, but I wish I could say I did it happily. I just can't ever get over the feeling that I am being lied to and taken for a schmuck, but on the flip side, I'm out the money I gave him regardless of whether or not he is telling the truth. I told him we gave him the money because we are followers of Jesus Christ, at which point OF COURSE he said he was too!
Was this particular guying lying about his needs? Probably. But he is still far worse off than I have ever been, so I hope he used the money we gave him wisely.
71. KULIGINthehooligan - 10/29/1999 3:09:43 AM
Well, admittedly I haven't done a very good job at keeping this sub-thread going. So, unless people have any specific questions they'd like answered, I'm going to just drop it. I haven't really had the time to keep at it, unfortunately. Sorry about that.
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