click on image
Thanks, Greystoke, for taking on this task.
2. Greystoke - 9/12/1999 6:04:43 PM
Welcome to the Daily News thread. I see this as a free wheeling discussion of interesting and unusual news stories. Read the Rules of Engagement for the Mote. I hope no additional rules are needed for this thread. But I will make some, if there is bad behavior.
It was the pattern in the Fray that many, many links and quotes from news stories were posted for every one that actually generated a discussion. So don't be discouraged if you post something that you think is provocative and no-one responds. Just try again with a different topic.
Once there is an on-going discussion, please don't try to change the subject even if the current one doesn't interest you. Wait until there is a lull, then post your proposed subject changer.
3. CalGal - 9/12/1999 6:06:23 PM
Grey,
Excellent intro. I hope you save that off so when we get a permanent place for stuff like that, you repost it.
4. Greystoke - 9/12/1999 6:11:18 PM
robertjayb
Welcome! I hope you will be a frequent poster here. In the Fray you always had interesting links for us.
Any suggestions you have for conducting this thread would be appreciated.
My hope is to never have to delete a post or chide a poster (Motician? Moterhead?), but perhaps that is an unrealistic expectation.
5. Greystoke - 9/12/1999 6:12:39 PM
CalGal
Thanks.
Good idea. I will do that.
6. robertjayb - 9/12/1999 7:11:08 PM
Suggestions?
How about a ban on information from The Washington Times, The New York Post, and the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal. Strictly in the interest of hygiene, of course; I abhor censorship.
Interesting links?
Well, not to make light of the horrors of Indonesia and East Timor,
but here's a way odd (to me) bit of reporting.
General Wiranto sings "Feelings"
A way odd happening as well...
7. CalGal - 9/12/1999 7:16:52 PM
Ban on the Times? The Post? The Journal?
Gawd-dam liberals.
8. Angel-Five - 9/12/1999 7:19:56 PM
My god, that's like some sick dystopic parody. General Wiranto sang 'Feelings' to indicate how much his army loves East Timor? That would be funny if it weren't so incredibly offensive.
9. Greystoke - 9/12/1999 7:20:42 PM
robertjayb
That's bizarre. One would think that the good General could do something more concrete to help the situation.
Sorry, I don't think we can limit where posters get their cites. Feel free to say something like: "The Wall Street Journal???? LOL!", though.
10. joezan - 9/12/1999 7:21:08 PM
Paul Williams?
11. Greystoke - 9/12/1999 7:25:44 PM
CalGal
"Gawd-dam liberals."
I hope I don't have to delete anyone's post or chide them.
(Man, I love having all this power.)
12. Greystoke - 9/12/1999 7:40:24 PM
There are three articles in the Salt Lake Tribune about how Utah conducts its concealed carry permitting process for handguns.
(Since we beat the gun issue to death in our old forum, I won't be hurt if this discussion doesn't fly.)
13. Au Naturel - 9/12/1999 9:56:09 PM
Sigh! But it's so fun making prohibitionists squirm!
Re. the Utah concealed carry permit process.
All it means is that a guild of firearms instructors haven't yet scraped together the moolah that the hair dressers did so they could "cut down" the level of competition. To wit:
"to qualify for a state license to style hair, an applicant must pass a written exam and prove at least 1,000 hours of applied schooling or 4,000 hours of experience"
If Utah sets up a requirement and then doesn't go about enforcing it, of course it's going to be ignored. The class is a merely sop to liberals anyhow. Vermont doesn't have any reqirements for CCW. There don't seem to be a lot of problems there.
The Nanny State marches on.
14. God - 9/12/1999 11:58:27 PM
Damn those liberals.
15. PsychProf - 9/13/1999 9:33:51 AM
CATEGORY 5?
click on image
16. ScottLoar - 9/13/1999 10:17:47 AM
Jesus, PP, are you an amateur hurricane hunter or just morbidly curious? Any projections on deaths and damage?
17. PsychProf - 9/13/1999 10:21:15 AM
Scott...as we post I am calculating possible outcomes, and I will forward such to my many fans as soon as they are available.
18. ScottLoar - 9/13/1999 10:24:02 AM
Seriously, we could take gentlemen's bets up to, say, a day before landfall on the US mainland, as to where the hurricane hits the coast. One must be accurate to within 50 miles.
19. JJBiener - 9/13/1999 10:49:19 AM
I don't know about the rest of you, but my interest in Floyd is more than betting on landfall. My father lives on the Florida coast and is directly in the path of the storm. I am hoping for a strong shift to the north.
20. PsychProf - 9/13/1999 11:00:16 AM
JJ...I have a son in Wilmington NC, and family throughout Florida...plus, I am empathic with anyone in harms way.
21. God - 9/13/1999 11:00:46 AM
You got it.
22. PsychProf - 9/13/1999 11:01:56 AM
I have?
23. God - 9/13/1999 11:03:23 AM
21-19
24. PsychProf - 9/13/1999 11:05:30 AM
Final score God...
25. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 2:03:08 PM
BRYAN, Texas (AP) - Dragging death murder defendant Lawrence Russell Brewer, labeled a leader of a white supremacist group while in prison, wrote he was proud that killed a black man last year by dragging him behind a pickup truck, prosecutors said today.
``This man has written how he sees himself after this murder,'' Jasper County District Attorney Guy James Gray said as Brewer's trial got under way.
``He seems himself as a hero, a star, that he's really accomplished. It's really a kind of weird mindset.''
Brewer is the second of three white men charged with dragging James Byrd Jr. to death 15 months ago.
His attorney, Doug Barlow, entered an innocent plea after the capital murder indictment against him was read this morning. Brewer did not speak.
Barlow declined to make an opening statement to the jury today.
Brewer, along with John William King and Shawn Allen Berry, both 24, are accused of killing Byrd, 49.
King, the first to go to trial, was convicted and sentenced to death in February by a Jasper County jury. This time, a jury of 12 whites and two Hispanics is hearing the case against Brewer, 32. Two of the jurors are alternates.
26. Wild Bill - 9/13/1999 2:36:12 PM
Just signed onto The Mote, but one upon a life time I spent more than a few years forecasting typhoons in the Pacific. I wouldn't bet on a hurricane or typhoon track with anyone, but the vicinity of Jacksonville looks very likely for "Floyd"
Glad I live on the left coast.
27. Mr.Right-O - 9/13/1999 2:49:31 PM
One never knows with hurricanes especially because the Gulf Stream is so warm right now.
That's why so many of them get caught up in it and move toward North Carolina.
28. JJBiener - 9/13/1999 2:56:02 PM
Pat Robertson isn't busy these days. Maybe we can get him to pray Floyd out to sea.
HAHAHAHA!
(sorry)
29. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 3:21:55 PM
JJB,
As long as Floyd has even the slightest chance of taking out Disney World I suspect that Pat will decline to intervene.
30. Mr.Right-O - 9/13/1999 3:48:29 PM
Praying is for losers.
31. vonKreedon - 9/13/1999 4:43:17 PM
Grey - Two things:
1) the CCW link above links to the SLTrib, but not at this time to a CCW article.
2) I have this near irresitable urge to refer to you as Tarzan, do you mind?
32. Greystoke - 9/13/1999 6:52:59 PM
Mr. President
Here is a link to the archived Salt Lake Tribune from yesterday.
Call me whatever you like.
33. ranheim - 9/13/1999 7:36:59 PM
Hey! Y'all.
My son's in-laws own a small place on Bar Harbor. They have had enough trouble lately! Don't even mention the fact that Floyd could bend north.
34. alistairconnor - 9/13/1999 7:54:22 PM
Why are you people so afraid of Mr Ridenour anyway?
35. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 8:00:29 PM
BRYAN, Texas (AP) - Murder defendant and white supremacist Lawrence Russell Brewer was so proud of his participation in the gruesome dragging death of a black East Texas man last year that he wrote about it weeks later, prosecutors said Monday as Brewer's trial got under way.
``I'm the goddamned hero of the day,'' he wrote to another inmate while being held at the Jasper County Jail for the June 1998 Byrd slaying.
...more grisly stuff here...
36. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 8:09:19 PM
37. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 8:36:44 PM
38. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 8:37:48 PM
Not a new frame, but it worked...
39. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 9:37:40 PM
Atlantic City, New Jersey, Sept 13 - In a stunning departure from tradition, the Miss America pageant has decided to let women who have been married or had abortions compete, The Associated Press has learned.
The board of the Miss America Organization voted last month to drop the 49-year-old requirement that contestants be women who have never been married and never been pregnant. The change takes effect next year.
Fear of violating New Jersey's discrimination laws spurred the change, according to court documents obtained today.
40. scabby ho - 9/13/1999 10:08:15 PM
How did the officials know whether a contestant had ever been pregnant before?
Looks like I can compete for the Miss America title now. Do they have any rules against venereal disease?
41. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 10:37:23 PM
ho,
Here is most of the rest of the story. Good luck!
...Since 1950, contestants have had to swear they had never been married and never been pregnant in order to vie for the rhinestone crown and thousands of dollars in scholarship money.
The new rules would require simply that they sign a document saying 'I am unmarried' and 'I am not pregnant and I am not the natural or adoptive parent of any child'.
That would open the door to divorced women, women who had had abortions and women who had children who later died.
Pageant chief executive Robert Beck sent new contracts to state pageant directors in August notifying them of the change. Beck and other pageant officials declined requests for comment.
Beck, who took over the top job last spring, told the state pageants to have contestants in this year's pageant - scheduled for Saturday at Convention Hall -sign the new contracts as a condition of competing for the title of Miss America 2000.
The state pageants went to court to fight the change, and the Miss America Organization agreed to back off for this year. But the board approved the change for next year.
The state pageants are expected to continue fighting it.
"Miss America has a long history of high moral standards and traditions, and I'm opposed to anything that changes that," said Libby Taylor, executive director of the Miss Kentucky Pageant and president of the National Association of Miss America State Pageants.
Leonard Horn, the longtime CEO of the pageant who stepped down last year after 30 years with the organisation, said the rule change was a mistake.
"It is totally unnecessary and will ultimately lead to the destruction of the Miss America program," he said.
42. scabby ho - 9/13/1999 10:38:31 PM
I guess this means I'll have to off the kids.
43. robertjayb - 9/13/1999 11:18:17 PM
An excerpt from Salon's must-read debunking of the China-spy pseudo-scandal:
One of the most telling ironies is that perhaps the best article written to date on this whole complex subject was by William Broad in the New York Times Sept. 7. What makes this ironic, and not simply praiseworthy, is that Broad covered much of the same ground Times reporter Jeff Gerth did in "breaking" the Trulock-Wen Ho Lee story earlier this year -- but without all the breathless detail and implication of scandal and national-security disaster.
Broad's article reported that experts are not at all certain whether the Chinese achieved their success in warhead miniaturization by espionage, hard work or some mix of the two; that the common wisdom of a few months ago alleging "espionage" probably placed far too much emphasis on the Los Alamos Laboratory and on Wen Ho Lee in particular; and that even the extent of the damage to national security may have been greatly overstated. It put the Times in the odd position of correcting the mistakes, rushes-to-judgment and misapprehensions that the paper itself disseminated in the first place.
That hasn't been missed by observers who questioned Gerth's reporting on the Trulock story from the outset. "Broad reinterviewed all of [Gerth's] sources," New York Daily News columnist Lars-Erik Nelson says. "You don't do that to a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter unless you have real doubts, unless you think he's made a major mistake."
The unraveling Chinese spy scandal has revealed once again that too many members of our elite political press have ferocity and doggedness in abundance without the historical consciousness or political acumen to make sense of what they report.
The Real China Scandal
44. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 12:23:59 AM
The heartwarming story of a family reunited.
45. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 6:32:44 PM
A $50,000 dollar windfall. But why should the government get to keep 60%?
46. marshame - 9/14/1999 7:05:06 PM
Slow news day, I guess.
47. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 7:12:26 PM
Hi marshame. Yes, its been slow here. Most people are talking about Censorship in the so-named thread, with spillover into the Playpen and Suggestions threads. Its quite interesting at times.
I'm hoping for more activity here once that debate winds down.
48. marshame - 9/14/1999 7:17:59 PM
Grey
There was an article in the Dallas Morning News this weekend about the Edinburgh, Texas school board banning the saying of the Pledge of Alligiance, because it contains the word "God" and the school attorney advised them to ban it in order to avoid possible litigation!
20th century validation of Shakespeare's opinion of lawyers!
49. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 7:52:12 PM
marshame
Ever since elementary school I've thought that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is quite silly. It sounds like a loyalty oath that would be more appropriate in an authoritarian nation. And why do we pledge allegiance to a flag? Its just a piece of cloth.
If someone is bothering to pledging allegiance, wouldn't it make more sense to pledge it to the nation, or to the President, or maybe to the Constitution?
Even so, I find it odd that a school board would ban the Pledge given its long tradition. How could anyone successfully sue simply because the Pledge contains the word "God"? I bet the school board will get lots of flack.
50. SpenceMirrlees - 9/14/1999 7:53:19 PM
"A $50,000 dollar windfall. But why should the government get to keep 60%?"
Income insurance for risk averse people
51. robertjayb - 9/14/1999 8:01:32 PM
Gruesome report from the second day of the "dragging death" trial in Texas.
52. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 8:04:18 PM
Spence
"Income insurance for risk averse people."
I don't understand.
53. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 8:09:43 PM
robertjayb
msg #51
Gruesome indeed. Why were the defendants tried separately?
54. SpenceMirrlees - 9/14/1999 8:16:09 PM
That's kind of tongue in cheek. Why 60%, and not 34.234%? I have no idea.
But for a general idea, imagine two risk averse people deciding on an income redistribution scheme, before they know their life situations --their families, their intelligence, etc. They are "behind the veil of ignorance" so to speak.
As far as they both know, their lifetime income is, at the time of this bargain behind the veil of ignorance, at least partially random. Some people will be born with less earning potential, for one reason or another, and behind the veil, nobody knows who if anyone it will be.
Since the bargainers are risk averse, they will want to accept a lower average lifetime income in exchange for less variance in their lifetime income. Behind the veil, they can and will want to reach an agreemnt wherein a high income person, whoever it may be, transfers some of his income to a low income person, whoever it may be. That way, everyone's variance in income is reduced, but they had to trade some of their average income (the amount they get when they are high-income weighted by the probability of being high income) to do it. That's life.
Now, when people learn their identities (are no longer behind the veil), and know more about their earning potentials, they will naturally want to renegotiate the deal. In particular, high-income types will know who they are now, and will want to renege on their scheme to compensate low income types.
This is one reason why, behind the veil of ignorance, the parties must agree to the artifice of a government. The government is useful because it makes it possible to commit to the agreement reached behind the veil -- government reduces the ability of high types to chip away at their committment to the low types.
Hypothetical in the extreme, yes. But still compelling from an ethical point of view.
55. SpenceMirrlees - 9/14/1999 8:17:18 PM
And since that has nothing to do with news of the day, I'll repost it in the econ thread, where it is more relevant. Please, take it up here or there if it interests you.
56. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 8:29:27 PM
Spence
"That's kind of tongue in cheek. Why 60%, and not 34.234%? I have no idea."
Why not 0% ?
I read your post #54 several times, and found it quite interesting. But I'm still not making the connection between your post and the woman who found the money.
57. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 8:41:24 PM
Spence
From the Economics thread:
"I have posted on progressive taxation as income insurance before -- at least 1.5 years ago in the Fray, in fact. But, I posted about it again just now in the News thread, and am copying the post here in the name of relevance to a thread's charge."
OK. Taxation as income insurance. Now I get it.
However, the 60% that the government took in the story I linked wasn't for taxes. The couple was taxed on the 40% they got to keep. I am unclear as to the rationalization for the government keeping 60% off the top.
58. Greystoke - 9/14/1999 9:26:29 PM
More about the $279,000 that a woman from Ringgold, Georgia found, from the Chattanooga Free Press.
An excerpt:
The money, placed in an interest-bearing account that had grown to $321,000 over two years, was split three ways: 40 percent went to Catoosa County, 40 percent was given to the Fultons and the federal government keeps 20 percent.
59. SpenceMirrlees - 9/14/1999 10:04:02 PM
Greystoke, these particular numbers highlight the limitations of simple toy models. Why them rather than some other numbers? Lots of touchy issues involving incomplete information and the need to eliminate the incentive for people to lie about their earning potential in their reports to the government, perhaps. Those constraints in a reasonably complex economy would make for a very complex tax code indeed, and could take ages to get a good handle on. (Of course, it does not mean that we owe our particular complicated tax code to these constraints rather than some other ones.)
60. robertjayb - 9/14/1999 11:12:49 PM
Greystoke,
There was talk early on about trying two of the guys together but the defense attorneys eventually asked for the trials to be separate.
Langiappe:
Molly Ivins Alerts Political Junkies
61. cmboyce - 9/15/1999 2:23:08 AM
The last sentence in the Chatanooga Free Press article gives the reason for the feds' getting a cut: it was deemed confiscated drug money (the next door neighbor might do well to assume a new identity, if he can). Of course, if the Tennessee "finder's keepers" law mentioned earlier applies, they were confiscating it from someone prima facie not the drug criminals from whom the confiscation statute doubtless stipulates it should be confiscated from. I think they should have had a better lawyer. (Presumably the county's cut is similarly rationalized.) There can be no doubt that it is sometimes true, the law is a ass.
Speaking of such laws and their relationship to the sterile offspring of horses and donkeys, can someone explain to me why such confiscatory laws as the RICO one, and NYC's seizure of a drunken driver's car on the spot, ie before arraignment, let alone trial and conviction, are not on the face of it unconstitutional?
(If you do this soon, I won't be here to thank you. I must to bed. But I will be tomorrow.)
62. cmboyce - 9/15/1999 2:23:43 AM
63. cmboyce - 9/15/1999 2:24:35 AM
Did I get it?
(Yes, per preview)
64. cmboyce - 9/15/1999 2:25:03 AM
And it's so. Good night, all.
65. CalGal - 9/15/1999 2:29:51 AM
66. CalGal - 9/15/1999 2:30:26 AM
Testing.
And if he means it's so it didn't show up as italic, that's something else I have to write up.
67. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 12:24:28 PM
68. JudithAtHome - 9/15/1999 1:54:52 PM
Thanks, Robert, for that excellent article...I especially liked the "textual exegetes" remark! I think that holds true for many political writers with axes to grind.
69. ElliottRW - 9/15/1999 5:11:16 PM
Gene therapy reverses brain cell loss in aged monkeys
70. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 6:34:11 PM
ElliottRW,
That's wonderful news. I hope they hurry right along with the research.
A serious threat to brain cells during hurricane season:
Overexposure to callow news-twits stumbling about on beaches and piers while screaming unintelligible and unneeded information into the wind and rain.
Dan Rather has a lot to answer for...
71. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 6:36:19 PM
And he's still at it...
72. JudithAtHome - 9/15/1999 6:40:56 PM
robert:
Yes, I'm sure safety is served well by our local-yokel TV station sending a "Storm Team" to Florida. Imagine if every city the size of Dallas sent a team of reporters to cover a hurricane; well, hell, they probably DO. L'idiot! (Woody Allen-speak)
73. glendajean - 9/15/1999 6:44:58 PM
Judith -- we're getting "hurricane" rains in DC. They say it may end our drought. We've already gotten some rains from Dennis, the previous hurricane.
That's what it was like in Central Texas when I was growing up. A good hurricane on the Gulf coast meant a source for rains in August and September in Waco. (Of course, one always hopes that the hurricane crashes into a county with only 500 people like the one that hit the Gulf below Corpus earlier this summer).
74. JudithAtHome - 9/15/1999 6:50:03 PM
glendajean:
I think Floyd is a breeze compared to what's going on a few threads over...
75. glendajean - 9/15/1999 6:50:52 PM
As in hurricanes, this, too, shall pass.
76. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 6:52:38 PM
Chuckle.
An ill wind?
77. JudithAtHome - 9/15/1999 9:21:21 PM
I had logged off for the evening and we turned on the TV to see that there has been another mass shooting about an hour ago...in a church here in Fort Worth. Early reports say 6 are dead, including the shooter (self-inflicted). Many people are being taken to the hospital.
This happened 6 blocks from my sons house and 2 blocks from our friends house. Our friends son is there now looking for his girlfriend, who was attending what was basically a prayer rally for young people.
The kids who have talked to the reporters keep saying they thought it was a joke at first; they say this every time one of these insane shootings happens.
78. Ace of Spades - 9/15/1999 9:22:26 PM
Judith:
You're kidding?! I haven't heard a peep on the news or on the Internet.
79. Ace of Spades - 9/15/1999 9:23:47 PM
Here it is, from AP:
Several Shot in Texas Baptist Church
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- A man dressed in black walked into a teen-age church service Wednesday night, pulled a gun and began shooting, injuring several, witnesses said.
Authorities said the man was believed to be dead, and local television reported that the man shot himself.
No other fatalities were immediately reported.
Five ambulances were sent to Wedgwood Baptist Church after the 7 p.m. shooting. Medical helicopters also went to the scene in the southwest corner of Fort Worth.
Witness Christy Martin said she thought about 15 people had been shot.
``He was very calm and looked normal and was smoking a cigarette,'' Martin, 17, told KDFW-TV.
The man walked into the sanctuary, pulled a gun and began firing, she said. ``I just saw him point the gun and shoot.''
AP-NY-09-15-99 2100EDT
80. JudithAtHome - 9/15/1999 9:24:46 PM
Ace:
I am not kidding...they just broke in on the local news. You'll be seeing it soon enough. Check the NBC station; we have an NBC affiliate here that is very aggressive.
81. Ace of Spades - 9/15/1999 9:24:50 PM
No one except the shooter is reported dead, though. Some injuries, but no other deaths.
82. JudithAtHome - 9/15/1999 9:27:26 PM
Well, they are saying it here that 6 are dead but they did say it was unofficial.
83. glendajean - 9/15/1999 9:27:35 PM
I hope you're right about the killer being the only dead person.
84. Ace of Spades - 9/15/1999 9:28:51 PM
The wire report is obviously more dated than a contemporaneous television report, so some might have died in the interim.
85. JudithAtHome - 9/15/1999 9:30:17 PM
They are also saying he tossed an bomb in there before he started shooting.
We're going to our friends house, they just called and need someone to stay around while they go to the hospital to check on their sons girlfriend....hope for the best.
86. Ace of Spades - 9/15/1999 9:32:58 PM
Oh, boy, Judith. I only skimmed your post originally. I didn't realize you knew someone who feared his girlfriend might have been shot.
I hope for the best, obviously.
87. glendajean - 9/15/1999 9:33:57 PM
Judith, I hope your friends are ok.
88. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 9:43:08 PM
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) - A man dressed in black walked into a church service filled with teen-agers Wednesday night, pulled a gun and began shooting, witnesses said.
Fire department spokesman Tony Rodriguez said some people died inside the church in the city's southwest corner. He said he received early reports that six people were dead, but could not confirm that number.
Rodriguez said eight victims went to three area hospitals.
``Everybody that needed to be transported has already been taken away,'' Rodriguez said. ``Only those eight people needed medical attention.''
Five wounded were taken to John Peter Smith Hospital, one to Harris Methodist Hospital and one 12-year-old went to Cook Childrens' Medical Center, fire officials said.
Authorities said the shooter was believed to be dead, and local television reported that he shot himself.
The shooting took place shortly after 7 p.m.
89. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 9:57:16 PM
Updated: Wednesday, Sep. 15, 1999 at 20:49 CDT
Several shot in Fort Worth church sanctuary
By Chris Vaughn
Star-Telegram
FORT WORTH -- A gunman walked into a sanctuary full of young people at a southwest Fort Worth Baptist church Wednesday evening and commenced firing, killing seven, including himself.
The shooting occurred at the Wedgwood Baptist Church about 7 p.m. during a rally related to "See You at The Pole," which attracted hundreds of teen-agers from a number of area churches.
When the gunman entered the church, a number of teens thought it was a skit, witnesses said. But the band playing, a group called Forty Days, reportedly started ducking behind amplifiers.
Initial reports also indicated that a pipe bomb exploded, sending shrapnel all the way into the balcony.
"There's cartridges, shrapnel and empty cart boxes and blood splattered all over the wall," said Lt. David Ellis, a police spokesman at the scene.
The gunman was wearing black leather jacket, blue jeans and a bandanna when he walked into the church. But a number of church members said they did not recognize the man.
An off-duty police officer who lives near the church heard the shots and called 911.
One man was reportedly taken into custody by police for questioning, but it was unclear what they hoped to gain from questioning.
90. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 10:03:14 PM
Man kills 6, self at FW church
09/15/99
By Jason Sickles / The Dallas Morning News
FORT WORTH - A gunman opened fire on children and adults gathered in the sanctuary of a Fort Worth church Wednesday, killing at least six people and then fatally shooting himself, police said.
The man entered from the back of Wedgwood Baptist Church in South Fort Worth, where people were gathered for a youth rally Wednesday night about 7 p.m. At least one bomb went off, sending people fleeing for cover, police said.
Eight people were injured and taken to hospitals, some of them in critical condition. Children and parents wept outside the church on Whitman Street. Parents were taken to a nearby elementary school.
Lt. David Ellis of the Fort Worth Police Department said officers were searching the church for more bombs. ATF officials were on the scene and had evacuated a two-block area around the church. He said bodies were inside and outside the sanctuary.
"Some of them look fairly young," Lt. Ellis said. "It is not secure of bombs yet. There's a lot of evidence scattered around the church. It does appear that they were fleeing. There are shoes in the hallway."
Lt. Ellis said evidence is throughout the church. The call came in from an off-duty officer who lives nearby and heard the gunshots.
"There's evidence in the balcony. There's shell casings and bodies everywhere. It's tragic. . . . It's obviously the worst scene that has ever happened in Fort Worth."
Witnesses said the church has a large youth population, and many attend a regular Wednesday night service. About 60 to 70 attended Wednesday for a special celebration of the "See You at the Pole Day" rally Wednesday.
91. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 10:41:11 PM
more from the Star-Telegram:
Kevin Rutledge and wife, Sundi, 22 both, were in the fellowship hall attending prayer meeting when they heard a commotion elsewhere in the church.
"We thought it was hammering," said Kevin, a ministerial student at Dallas Baptist University. But minutes later, he heard someone saying, "I'm not joking, I'm shot."
The church's pastor, Al Meredith, was at home when the shooting occurred and found out when a reporter called him.
A woman in the lobby of John Peter Smith Hospital, her clothes splattered with blood, said her 17-year-old daughter, Heather MacDonald, was saved by her best friend who was sitting next to her.
As the gunman approached, the woman said that her daughter's friend "laid on top of my daughter to protect her, and she got shot."
The injured teen-ager, believed to be 17, was not immediately identified.
Steve Brown said his wife, Jaynanne, was shot, but only grazed in the head. His wife was supposed to pick him up from work last night, but instead decided to take their children to a prayer meeting and concert at the church.
He said his wife was taken to Harris Methodist Hospital with a graze wound to the head, but that his children were alright.
"I thank the Lord somebody protected her," Brown said. "But it's just a shame you can't go to church without something like this happening."
92. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 10:45:57 PM
more from the Star-Telegram:
Dax Hughes, the church's college minister, said at least 150 young people were inside the sanctuary.
"He hits the door real hard to make his presence known and he just immediately started firing," Hughes said.
When the gunfire was over, Hughes said, the man "sat in the back pew and put a gun (to his head) and shot himself and fell over."
Chris Applegate, a seventh grader, said he was in choir practice when the gunman burst into the room.
"We were singing a song and then in the middle of the song this guy opened the door and fired one shot," he said. "He just kept telling us to stay still.
"We all just jumped under the benches and he fired about 10 more shots. . . . Somebody said, 'Run, run," and we all started running."
The man reloaded several times during the rampage, which some first thought was a skit or prank.
"I was wondering . . . whether it was real or not," Chris said.
Shortly after 8 p.m., police told reporters and bystanders to get inside an elementary school across the street from the church because "secondary devices" -- believed to be explosives -- had been found by the bomb squad.
Wedgwood Baptist Church is located at 5522 Whitman.
93. robertjayb - 9/15/1999 11:25:16 PM
AP says eight dead
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) - Eight people died and seven others were injured after a man dressed in black walked into a church service filled with teen-agers Wednesday night, pulled a gun and began shooting before fatally shooting himself, police said.
Fort Worth police Lt. David Ellis said three teen-agers and three adults were shot to death inside the church in the city's southwest corner. Another victim died at a hospital. The shooter appears to have been in his 30s.
Seven others went to hospitals with injuries, some of which appeared extremely critical, Ellis said.
94. joezan - 9/16/1999 12:20:24 AM
A young couple, both 24 years old, were in court today for an abuse and neglect hearing. My office is directly across the lobby from the main courtroom and, looking out the little window in my door I could tell there was something up, because shortly after the couple entered the courtroom 3 deputies entered the lobby and stood outside the courtroom, peeking through the window on the door.
Curious, I went out there and asked one of them what was going on. (I already knew about the charges - the younger of the two boys involved, 2 y.o., had been brought to the E.R. by his gramma with a spiral fracture of his arm, and the x-rays showed another, old fracture of the same arm. The father was facing several charges). The deputy explained that the husband had told his mother-in-law that if his two kids were taken away, "people were gonna die." They had run him through the metal detector and he was clean, but they wanted to be handy in case he rushed the bench or something.
As the Judge announced his decision to remove both children from the home, we could hear loud thuds from inside the courtroom. As the deputies opened the doors to run in, I saw the father smashing his head on the wooden table he was sitting at. At that moment, I recognized him.
9 years ago, he was in court for snatching the neighbor's dog, duct-taping it to a table, shaving its entire underside and melting hot wax all over it.
At that hearing, the same Judge he sat in front of today told him, "I pray you never have children."
95. glendajean - 9/16/1999 7:00:18 AM
NPR reported this morning that the Fort Worth killer has bulges in his clothes and authoritities are wary that it may be some kind of bomb or explosive device. So his body is on a church pew and they haven't approached it yet.
96. JudithAtHome - 9/16/1999 10:02:52 AM
We were unable to make it to our friends house...the girl is okay, just in shock. That entire neighborhood was closed off; no one getting in or out. My son was on his way to work and was stuck in front of the church for hours...he saw kids running out screaming and he helped calm several down; he was on site for about 3 hours and said it was the most incredible scene, that TV didn't show half of what was happening.
They've identified the shooter...a 47 year old man who was disturbed by the recent death of his father.
Reports from local news say the ATF is doing forensic tracking inside the church...I don't know if they've moved the bodies or not.
97. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 10:05:05 AM
Local FW/Dallas news this morning reports the bulges were full gun magazines.
98. theDiva - 9/16/1999 10:07:25 AM
Holy Mother of God. Please tell me whether there's anywhere left in the world where you can feel safe. My heart is broken.
99. Cellar Door - 9/16/1999 10:27:51 AM
Another day, another mass shooting, Deev.
Of course, guns don;t kill -- only people kill. The guns are merely innocent bystanders.
100. JudithAtHome - 9/16/1999 10:32:12 AM
Yes, Cellar...if this guy had only had sticks or stones, he could've wounded just as many. You bet...
I can hear it now: if a criminal wants a gun, laws won't prevent him from getting one, yada yada yada. Tell that to the parents of those kids.
101. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 10:38:11 AM
I have been feeling a sort of exhausted sadness ever since the news broke last night.
<:o(
102. theDiva - 9/16/1999 10:46:11 AM
Cellar, I know you weren't in my bedroom last night, but that's exactly what I said to Sweetie when this item came on the news. When are people going to wake up?
103. JudithAtHome - 9/16/1999 10:50:33 AM
ChristiP:
My son was really shaken by this; he is a very personable guy but a loner by choice and I was surprised that he would stop and get involved with what was an extremely emotional situation. But he did and he said it was absolutely gut-wrenching.
He has in the past been somewhat anti-authority but he was really impressed with the way the police and rescue people handled the situation. He said it was like they had done this all their lives, which of course, they sort of have but still...this was the worst massacre in Fort Worth history.
Unfortunately, it may become an all too routine drill. Some one goes mad today and society pays.
104. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 11:15:15 AM
Judith -
Yes, I can empathize with your son.
I know that being there, supervisor in charge, when a guy went nuts and started shooting (USAF) was a life-changing experience for me.
I knew this guy. Prior to this I had thought of him as a mild sweet over-achiever. So the shock of what he did was big. It could have completely destroyed my already tenuous ability to trust people. However, there was the counterpoint of how well everyone in the situation pulled together and handled it - all of us in the shop, the SPs, and the base authorities higher up.
105. ChristiPeters - 9/16/1999 11:22:56 AM
You know, part of me is glad the guy shot himself as now we don't have to go through a long trial, etc. (and I feel guilty about feeling that way)
Another part of me is sorry he's dead because I would like to be able to ask him why he did it - not because any reason he had could possibly ever justify what he did, but because I have a small hope that if we can figure out why some people do these things, maybe we can prevent it from happening.
I know in the case of the guy who did the shooting in the USAF, we found out later that he had already tried to kill himself and he had been under psychiatric care. They told us that this is the way some people commit suicide - "suicide by cop" even though this guy, like the shooter last night, eventually shot himself.
Still, if it is a form of suicide...
WHY do some people feel the need to kill a bunch of other people when they kill themselves??
You know, I KNOW that there is a whole lot of life that doesn't make sense and never will, but I keep trying to make sense of it anyway...STOOOOPID!
106. DocBrown - 9/16/1999 12:19:10 PM
Bill Gates Gives a $ Billion in Minority Technology Scholarships.
The gift, to be announced in Seattle on Thursday, would be the Gateses' largest philanthropic contribution.
The scholarships in education, engineering, math and science will be called the Gates Millennium Scholarships and will seek to help at least of 1,000 high school students a year, The News Tribune of Tacoma and The New York Times reported Thursday editions.
A billion dollars is a lot of money to spend philanthropically. Interesting to see where Gates put it, hmmm?
107. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 12:32:26 PM
Doc
I think it's an excellent idea -- and something that state and federal government can no longer do due to various court decisions.
108. Macnas - 9/16/1999 12:47:42 PM
Message to all those who plan on shooting people and then shooting themselves....shoot yourself first.
What the fuck is going on over there? Here all gun owners must first register with the police, and every year are reviwed against police records. You can own only one rifle, and handguns are totally illegal.
Even air powered weapons are classed, by law, as firearms.
It might sound draconian, but if you are a law abiding citizen, you can still own a gun. Just a few more rules and checks to abide by, thats all.
109. Greystoke - 9/16/1999 12:54:13 PM
Macnas
"Here all gun owners must first register with the police, and every year are reviwed against police records."
Where is "here"?
110. Macnas - 9/16/1999 12:56:35 PM
Rep. of Ireland.
111. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/16/1999 1:15:30 PM
112. Greystoke - 9/16/1999 1:29:58 PM
Macnas
"You can own only one rifle, and handguns are totally illegal.
Even air powered weapons are classed, by law, as firearms."
I don't see those kinds of restrictions ever being imposed here in the US. There are millions of hunters. Most, at minimum, have a shotgun for birds and other small game, a .22 for small game, and a high powered rifle for deer.
I don't forsee a nationwide requirement for registration of handguns ever becoming law, let alone a ban.
Restrictions like those you mentioned would require a major confiscation effort by the government. We would have a civil war.
Do you know what the penalties are in Ireland for having more than one rifle, or for having an illegal handgun?
113. ranheim - 9/16/1999 1:46:06 PM
This is, very likely, not the proper thread for this; I don't know where it should belong.
Should you read the following, keep in mind that I am one who totally dis-likes the USA govt. at all three levels. Furthermore I have almost no trust in the govt.
Those of you who wish to control/ban weapons, how would you go about it?
I watched a very short piece on TV about a year ago. The scene was England just after they passed a law banning hand guns. I, in particular, noted all the very fancy dueling pistols that were confiscated. Some of them were works of art! Had they been in my family for several hundred years, I would have found a way to hide them from the State. Would your new proposed law make exception for this category of weapon? The dueling pistols that I saw on that TV program were good for 1 shot and had to be hand loaded (powder; the ball; tamping down; that whole bit) prior to the next use.
Would you include in your ban rifles and shotguns? Not military rifles! There must be some way to legally define the typical rifle used for hunting. I am on record as being an opponent of military, semi-automatic, and fully automatic weapons in the hand of civilians.
I have mentioned previously that the best hunter that I know uses, primarily, a bow and arrow. He feels that the usual hunting rifle does not utilize fully his skills. However, this same man must own at least a dozen weapons of various types. Some are extremely valuable.
We have never talked about a possible ban of guns.
BTW I do not own a weapon of any kind.
114. PsychProf - 9/16/1999 1:50:41 PM
SOME STORM 
115. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 1:53:53 PM
PP
Va Beach and the Eastern Shore are still getting hammered, but it looks like the worst has passed here.
Ranheim
How about controlling ammunition?
116. Greystoke - 9/16/1999 1:54:43 PM
ranhiem
"This is, very likely, not the proper thread for this; I don't know where it should belong."
Posts such as your #113 are entirely appropriate for this thread.
(BTW, I do not wish to control or ban firearms, so I cannot respond to your question.)
118. ranheim - 9/16/1999 1:57:17 PM
bubba
Same question "How would you do it?
After Waco, I am loathe to give the BATF more power!
119. CalGal - 9/16/1999 1:59:56 PM
Grey--a suggestion for the future. Not a complaint, either, just something to think about.
In the case of breaking big stories, you could put a few links in on the side so that people can easily catch up with what's happening. You could label the links as "Breaking News".
It might take a bit more maintenance, but it would avoid all the stories being posted in the thread, and seems in keeping with your thread.
I like your links--may I suggest the Merc?
And this next is a minor complaint--could people link more and post full text less?
120. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 2:01:06 PM
Ranheim
Many would argue that there is so much ammunition available now, that making any effort to institute controls is futile. The same reasoning might apply to the folks in Floyd's path who have 2 feet of water in their basement -- why bother to takes steps to control it?
It seems that by tagging explosive types (available technology) and registering ammunition purchases, we should be able to at least trace ammunition used illegally even if it is impossible or unreasonable to confiscate firearms already in circulation.
121. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 2:02:06 PM
I swear I didn't post in italics. I didn't do it, I'm not responsible.
122. CalGal - 9/16/1999 2:02:20 PM
Heavens. Sorry about that.
123. CalGal - 9/16/1999 2:02:35 PM
No, it was me. Sorry, bubba.
124. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 2:02:35 PM
can i fix it?
125. bubbaette - 9/16/1999 2:03:39 PM
Cal
sawright. I just seem so likely to be responsible for errant toys today.
126. robertjayb - 9/16/1999 2:08:24 PM
from The Dallas Morning News:
Church shooting victims
09/16/99
The gunman killed three teenagers and three adults before fatally shooting himself. A seventh victim died later at a hospital.
People killed:
Four youths
Kristi Beckel, 14, white female - wounded victim who died at John Peter Smith Hospital overnight
Joseph D. Ennis, 14, white male
Cassandra Griffin, 14, white female
Justin M. Ray, 17, white male
Three adults
Sydney R. Browning, 36, white female
Shawn C. Brown, 23, white male
Susan Kimberly Jones, 23, white female
The Gunman
Larry Gene Ashbrook, 47, shot self in head after shooting others
People taken to area hospitals
Harris Methodist hospital
Kevin Galey of Fort Worth, 38-year-old church counselor, good condition but in surgery
Jaynanne Brown of Crowley, 41-year-old choir member, superficial scalp wound, released
Cook Children’s Medical Center
12-year-old boy, shot in back, fair condition
John Peter Smith Hospital
Robert DeBord, 17, gunshot wound to chest, critical condition
Justin Laird, 16, gunshot wound to back, critical condition
Mary Beth Talley, 14, gunshot wound to torso, fair condition
Jeff Laster, 36, gunshot wound to abdomen, critical condition
Died overnight: Kristy Beckel, 14, gunshot wound to head, entered hospital in critical condition
127. Greystoke - 9/16/1999 2:10:58 PM
CalGal
Thanks for the suggestions. Both are good ideas.
Yesterday, I could only get 13 links to display. Today, all 16 that I input showed up. So, fortunately, I wouldn't have to bump something as important as the Drudge link in order to display a "breaking news" link.
What's the "Merc"?
129. Greystoke - 9/16/1999 2:19:35 PM
I have to grab a chainsaw and head for my mother-in-law's house. See you all later.
I have to trim her trees.
Really.
130. ranheim - 9/16/1999 2:26:20 PM
bubba #120
I am going to post and run. Wife insists that I must go shopping with her! God, how I hate the need for new clothes!!
In this poor and rural portion of Louisiana there remain a few families who supplement their tables with game and fish.
Would your proposition increase the cost of ammunition to them? I realize that this is very, very tiny amount of ammunition used.
131. robertjayb - 9/16/1999 2:32:15 PM
Greystoke,
Got room for Mother on the list of links?
MoJo Wire
132. robertjayb - 9/16/1999 3:02:48 PM
Will the "concealed carry" issue return for Shrub?
133. theDiva - 9/16/1999 3:08:55 PM
Greystoke's #129 was funny as hell.
134. Cellar Door - 9/16/1999 3:40:05 PM
GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) - Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush said Thursday that ``a wave of evil'' - not a lack of gun control laws - is the cause of rampant gun violence in America.
When in doubt, go Metaphysical.
135. theDiva - 9/16/1999 3:48:18 PM
that George Dubya. Whatta card.
136. theDiva - 9/16/1999 3:48:36 PM
Toys, dear.
137. Fraaankster - 9/16/1999 4:04:38 PM
Is post # 111 courtesy of Robert Dente ? It's his style.
I'm still laughing...Throw in Ted Nugent while you're at it also.
138. JudithAtHome - 9/16/1999 4:14:37 PM
Whimsy Wizard: Nice job...love your style.
139. joezan - 9/16/1999 5:50:31 PM
Fraaaaank:
You beat me to it...I immediately thought the same thing...
140. Greystoke - 9/16/1999 7:06:23 PM
141. Cellar Door - 9/16/1999 7:13:53 PM
What's shocking about this story, greaystoke, is that it's actually made the papers. None of this is new, you know.
142. robertjayb - 9/16/1999 7:25:53 PM
Another glorious victory in the war on drugs.
143. robertjayb - 9/16/1999 9:09:07 PM
Prosecution rests in dragging death trial...grim stuff
144. Cygnus X-1 - 9/16/1999 10:58:06 PM
This just in:
A new study reveals that kids (with both a mother and a father) that don't get along with their fathers are more likely to abuse drugs. Suprisingly, however, there was no study on what effects there would be if the kids didn't get along with the mother.
145. ranheim - 9/16/1999 11:04:05 PM
FEMA
This is a highly relevant organization. Federal Emergency M ...A. . .
What is the group's feelings or actual contact with this federal bureaucracy. FEMA had some very bad press early in its existanc; is its performance improving?
Should there be such an agency to begin with?
I'm headed for bed. See you in the morning.
146. JJBiener - 9/16/1999 11:16:00 PM
Today the Missouri Legislature voted to override Governor Carnahan's veto of a bill banning partial birth abortions. This was in spite of a well funded disinformation campaigned waged by the pro-abortion lobby. This demonstrates that lies and scare tactics no longer have the political power they once had.
147. JJBiener - 9/16/1999 11:26:34 PM
Ranheim - FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) is one of those political third rails no one dares criticize no matter what they do. How can you possibly disagree with a government agency that helps people who have survived a disaster. It doesn't matter how badly FEMA mismanages their funding or whether they ignore regulation and reason when distributing money like a rich uncle at Christmas. The intention is good, so the actual execution is irrelevant.
148. Macnas - 9/17/1999 3:40:00 AM
Ranheim/Greystoke
I dont propose that the federal authorities confiscate all handguns. I was outlining the controls in my country. Its different in others, a lot of european countries have liberal gun laws. Most, however, do involve the police regulating the issuance of firearm certificates.
Guns are dangerous, so are some people. Try not to let the dangerous people have easy access to guns.
I know its a sore point, and one which gets a lot of backs up in America, but you folk should have more control over who has guns. You have had multiple "multiple" shootings, when we hear it over here we just cant fucking understand it! It sounds like a huge problem.
When it happened in the UK in Hungerford, they banned fullbore semiautos. When it happened in Dunblain, they banned handguns.
I know its different in the states, you love your guns, you love the right to own as many guns as you can fit in your house and the waistband of your pants. I know I'm generalising, but thats how it sounds to us all watching it on the nightly news.
As for the question I was was posed about penalties in Ireland for illegal firearms use/ownership, maximum is 25 years in Prison.
149. CalGal - 9/17/1999 3:43:46 AM
When it happened in Hungerford, they had incredibly strict gun control. Didn't do any good. When it happened in Dunblain, it sure hadn't helped, either. And I sincerely doubt you all are safe from the next nutjob who comes along.
My concern about these people is that they used to be naturally occurring phenomena. Now they are manufactured.
150. Macnas - 9/17/1999 3:52:07 AM
I'm afraid the Uk did not have incredibly strict gun laws at the time of Hungerford, at least by our standards anyway. You could own whatever you liked, even, in certain circumstances, full autos.
The Dunblain murders were carried out with pistols. It might tend to suggest that the next (God forbid) incident will be carried out with a shotgun, then a knife, then a club, then a rock, I dont know. I do know that you folk, in the US, have a big problem with guns.
151. CalGal - 9/17/1999 3:58:59 AM
In comparison to the US, the UK had incredibly strict gun laws. As did Scotland. There were strict licensing requirements.
And yet, I imagine until recently the occurrence of mass murders in both countries was pretty similar. Recently, in the US, it's become a fad. But until then I think you'd notice a pattern throughout our history (and probably England's as well) of random wacko multiple murders.
And as you know, nearly all armed crime in England is committed with illegal guns. So it's not like they're doing any good at keeping guns out of the hands of anyone who wants one.
Finally, armed crime in England is going up, despite all that increased control.
Face it--ain't no correlation between gun control and crime drops. So I'm not sure what you mean by the US having "a problem" with guns.
We are a violent people. Nothing's changing that.
And, of course, there is that pesky 2nd Amendment. I mean, in the end, we can't ban guns the way England did, even if we were silly enough to want to.
152. Macnas - 9/17/1999 4:13:50 AM
Have to agree with you on the tenuous connection between gun control and gun crime.
By the way, just about all the armed crime anywhere, is carried out with illegal guns, not just the UK. I dont recall hearing that armed crime has increased in the UK, you might point me to your source on that one.
But what are ye going to do about people shooting lots of other people with legally held guns?
And for Christs sake! :
"We are a violent people. Nothing's changing that.
And, of course, there is that pesky 2nd Amendment. I mean, in the end, we can't ban guns the way England did, even if we were silly enough to want to."
You sound almost gleeful.
153. CalGal - 9/17/1999 4:36:24 AM
I'm zonked tonight, but if you do a search on Dunblaine, you'll find the Chief HooHaw's report online. The back of the report has a lot of data on crime in England.
If you can't find it, I'll look for it on the weekend.
Agreed about armed crime being generally committed with illegal arms. Of course, this particular crime was not done with illegal arms. Neither were at least two of the guns used in the Atlanta day trading catastrophe.
I'm not gleeful. We have a second amendment. Which I personally think is a good thing. And it's certainly arguable that Americans are just more violent.
154. ranheim - 9/17/1999 7:50:16 AM
FEMA
I vaguely recall a local newspaper making fun of FEMA a year (or so) ago. The source of the local report was the CATO Institute and the subject was snow removal - which we in LA don't have to worry about.
The local report was anti-FEMA as they believed that northern communities were taking advantage of a routine, yearly occurrence : snow fall. And we taxpayers in the south were picking up the tab for what should be a locally budgeted item.
155. Dantheman - 9/17/1999 10:46:31 AM
ranheim,
That argument is silly, because FEMA does not get involved in each snowfall, or even each major one. I can recall FEMA being involved in only 3 winter conditions in Eastern Pennsylvania in the 90's, a 15" snowfall in '94, a 25+" snowfall in '96 and a situation where we had a 2" coating of ice on all roads and the temperature stayed below the point where normal salt is useful in '93 (and FEMA provided nearly no help then). By the same token, FEMA is involved in earthquakes in California, and hurricanes in the South far more regularly.
156. robertjayb - 9/17/1999 12:31:48 PM
Fort Worth shooter said to have ties to Phineas Priests:
article
157. ranheim - 9/17/1999 7:01:55 PM
Dan
I'm not surprized that you consider #154 silly. It was a southern newspaper making fun of both the government and the north. That it too much fun for most local newspapers to pass up.
My purpose in asking about FEMA is twofold : it is going to be instructive, possibly, to see how it operates with the floods as a result of the recent hurricane + should that organization exist at all. I'm interested in comments about both.
158. Greystoke - 9/17/1999 7:27:51 PM
Macnas
"But what are ye going to do about people shooting lots of other people with legally held guns? "
Nothing. We are going to do precisely nothing of consequence "about people shooting lots of other people with legally held guns." That is one of the prices we pay for a free society. We will not follow the example of the oppressed sheep of the UK.
What will turn this debate around is when an armed citizen blows away a prospective mass murderer before he can complete his suicide mission. Then, politicians will suddenly see the wisdom in concealed carry laws for handguns, and every state will have one, even New York.
159. Cellar Door - 9/17/1999 7:38:43 PM
"That is one of the prices we pay for a free society."
MUCH too expensive.
"We will not follow the example of the oppressed sheep of the UK."
BAAAAA! BAAAAA! We've got our own oppressed shepp.
"What will turn this debate around is when an armed citizen blows away a prospective mass murderer before he can complete his suicide mission."
Dream on, dream on.
Or more to the point -- Wet Dream On, Wet Dream on!
"Then, politicians will suddenly see the wisdom in concealed carry laws for handguns, and every state will have one, even New York."
They see the "wisdom" in it already. They're already personally owned and operated by the NRA.
160. Greystoke - 9/17/1999 7:45:33 PM
"We've got our own oppressed shepp."
And Curly, Moe, and Larry.
161. Greystoke - 9/17/1999 7:58:18 PM
Ooops. I guess that would be Shemp.
162. robertjayb - 9/17/1999 9:01:40 PM
What will turn this debate around is when an armed citizen blows away a prospective mass murderer before he can complete his suicide mission. Then, politicians will suddenly see the wisdom in concealed carry laws for handguns, and every state will have one, even New York.
Greystoke is certainly more right than wrong on this point. The concealed carry issue gained great momentum in Texas following
a 1991 horror at Killeen where the shooter crashed a pickup truck into a crowded cafeteria at lunchtime and started blasting away. Twenty-three people died.
The gunman was 35, lived with his mother and was described as being bitter, disgruntled, and deranged in the months before the shooting. He killed himself when the cops showed up.
Sound familiar?
When I first heard of this I was amazed that in central Texas,among the 200 or so diners, someone wasn't packing. But there was a woman who had left her piece in the car. I don't remember if any of her friends or family members were hurt. But she was motivated to run and win a seat in the legislature where she became a champion of a concealed carry law.
The law went into effect in 1996 and as of last July there were about 200,000 permit holders.
163. robertjayb - 9/17/1999 9:14:16 PM
164. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 9/17/1999 10:18:11 PM
165. robertjayb - 9/17/1999 10:57:35 PM
But there was a woman who had left her piece in the car. I don't remember if any of her friends or family members were hurt. But she was motivated to run and win a seat in the legislature where she became a champion of a concealed carry law.
She was Dr. Suzanna Gratia Delisi, a chiropractor. The following is from her legislative biography:
"Suzanna is recognized worldwide as one of the leading advocates for an individual's right to carry a concealed weapon. In 1991, after leaving her gun in her car in order to comply with the law, Suzanna watched helplessly as both her parents, along with 21 others were gunned down in a mass shooting at a local restaurant. As a survivor of this tragedy, her impassioned calls for the right of citizens to self-defense have thrust her into the national debate on the right to keep and bear arms. Since the Killeen massacre, she has testified numerous times across the country for the restoration of the Second Amendment. She has been quoted in US News and World Report, the Wall Street Journal, Time magazine, Texas Monthly, People, and many others. Suzanna's tireless efforts in this arena were recently recognized when she was awarded the Sybil Ludington Women's Freedom Award by the National Rifle Association."
166. robertjayb - 9/17/1999 11:17:44 PM
Correction:
The name of the gun-toting legislator-chiropractor mentioned above is Suzanna Gratia Hupp, not Delisi.
167. TrialShark - 9/18/1999 3:45:03 AM
My favorite bit from the article about the dragging-death trial:
"[Brewer] also denied testimony from a fellow inmate that after his arrest in the Byrd case he said all black people should be shot in the head.
"'I never made that statement,' he said. 'I can't see myself making that statement, because I knew I was being watched because of the crime that occurred.'"
How much better his testimony would have been had Brewer said, "I can't see myself making that statement because I don't think that."
168. CalGal - 9/18/1999 4:54:12 AM
TrialShark! Hi.
Actually, I think the honesty makes it more believable. But send him to jail for eternity anyway.
169. Ace of Spades - 9/18/1999 4:58:50 AM
Cal:
I was going to say that, too. There's really no point in him claiming he's not a racist. If you lie, tell plausible lies. Say you'd never do it because of self-interest.
170. CalGal - 9/18/1999 5:02:34 AM
Exactly. If he was the kind of guy who'd never make that statement, then he'd probably not have done what he did.
171. Ace of Spades - 9/18/1999 5:07:38 AM
Cal:
"I might be a Murderer, but damnit, I certainly am not a racist!!!!"
Yeahp.
172. ranheim - 9/18/1999 12:17:33 PM
Is anyone paying any attention to the fact that Clinton is allowing limited status to N.Korea : non-military trade; air & sea transport; banking; communication. In return, they are delaying (possibly cancelling) a proposed launch of a longer range missile. N.Korea is "softening"?
Millions must be starving!
173. CalGal - 9/18/1999 1:33:41 PM
Ran--I could swear someone mentioned it in International.
Grey--Ace mentioned somewhere that News of the Day is a Fray remnant. Truth, and you might want to consider renaming the thread?
Ace suggested Current Events, which is a good one. But in keeping with CoralReef's plaint that our thread titles are boring, maybe you want to make it something fun or quirky?
I am now becoming very Valley Girl? Everything ends in question marks?
174. coralreef - 9/18/1999 1:59:31 PM
Current Events is fine with me, for what that's worth. Not to stand in the way of any other change though, if people want it. Changing the titles somewhat from the old place might be a good general idea, in cases where it is a practical, workable thing to do.
175. TrialShark - 9/18/1999 3:07:26 PM
Cal --
Hi! back at you.
I've seen a lot of variations on that approach: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client may be a [insert socially-unacceptable adjective here], but he's no criminal!"
Oddly enough, it never seems to work. Counterintuitive, maybe, but there it is.
Here, you can count on the prosecutor to argue that the defendant conceded by implication that he does believe all blacks should be shot in the head. Call me a cynic, but I don't think that display of candor will advance the defendant's cause in this particular instance.
176. Ace of Spades - 9/18/1999 3:11:36 PM
Actually, I suggested "Current Affairs," which might sound stodgy, but "Current Events" sounds like a fourth-grade Weekly Reader thing.
177. Ace of Spades - 9/18/1999 3:12:09 PM
"In the News"?
"Headlines"?
178. God - 9/18/1999 3:12:37 PM
How 'bout just: Shit Happens
179. God - 9/18/1999 3:12:53 PM
or Shit Happening
180. equilibrium - 9/18/1999 3:14:24 PM
Some Happenin' Shit
181. Son of god - 9/18/1999 3:41:57 PM
Excrement that was ordained to happen and has.
182. dusty - 9/18/1999 7:49:39 PM
ranheim
My purpose in asking about FEMA is twofold : it is going to be instructive, possibly, to see how it operates with the floods as a result of the recent hurricane + should that organization exist at all. I'm interested in comments about both.
I confess I haven't followed FEMA too closely, but I'd vote to eliminate it. I'm nervous about getting into too much of a discussion, becuase it seems to be a favorite subject of some of the whacked out right.
183. Greystoke - 9/18/1999 8:36:28 PM
184. CalGal - 9/18/1999 8:54:59 PM
Quite apart from the content, that is a gorgeous looking page.
185. robertjayb - 9/18/1999 9:08:39 PM
Molly Ivins' tips on mass killings: What to do while waiting for "more love in society." 186. Greystoke - 9/18/1999 9:13:22 PM From The Salt Lake Tribune: 187. joezan - 9/18/1999 9:18:24 PM Cal: 188. CalGal - 9/18/1999 9:21:23 PM
Molly
Besides protesting police crackdowns on Liberty Park drum circlers and State Street cruisers, Salt Lake City mayoral candidate Ken Larsen founded the Church of the Hemp Goddess.
Larsen says he formed the religion five years ago to "dramatize . . . that the drug war is a war of religious persecution, where the majority is enforcing their religious views on the minority."
Although Larsen says he has "never touched, much less inhaled" marijuana, he insists pot is no more harmful than wine, peyote or kava juice, all stimulants that are used in religious ceremonies. Larsen says marijuana should not be treated as an illegal drug.
Larsen has performed several marriages, two recorded, in his role as "mouth" of the Church of the Hemp Goddess. He also is an ordained minister with the Church of Universal Life.
Born and reared in Provo, Larsen graduated from Brigham Young University in 1974 with a degree in herpetology, the study of reptiles. Now he works as a researcher at the University of Utah, studying the effect of jet lag on rats.
Yea, but how the heck did this happen?
and IÕm donating my time and effort to oppose this bullshit!"
...and this: at the meeting: "You donÕt...
189. Greystoke - 9/18/1999 9:22:57 PM
Toys.
190. robertjayb - 9/18/1999 9:27:44 PM
Did I do that?
Sorry.
191. robertjayb - 9/18/1999 10:17:42 PM
I'm so embarrassed!
192. robertjayb - 9/18/1999 10:18:06 PM
Okay?
193. CalGal - 9/18/1999 10:22:43 PM
Robert--do you use the Check for Dust option? If you check the "did you put your toys away" question at the bottom, it will show whether or not you cleaned everything up.
Although I sometimes am convinced I put everything away and so don't bother to check, too.
195. JudithAtHome - 9/19/1999 12:19:06 PM
I'm watching a local program on the Mass Murder which happened here last week; one man has charged the media with "emotional vampirism", a nice turn of phrase, I think. The local stations were very intrusive and sensationalistic through this entire ordeal. I guess there is no way to handle this well but common decency toward the victims families might be a good place to start.
There were cameras following the families into the hospitals and the vultures were interviewing anyone caught standing around, whether they had anything to say or not. One teenage girl was obviously in shock; her delivery was monotone and unemotional and her eyes were clearly fixed...the reporter was completely oblivious to her condition and kept the microphone shoved in her face and the tape rolling. It was over the line of "news".
196. CalGal - 9/19/1999 12:49:34 PM
one man has charged the media with "emotional vampirism",
Very nice turn of phrase. Of course, the appalling thing is that we watch them suck the blood. ("we" in the generic sense; I refuse to watch coverage any more and I'm sure I'm not alone.)
If you look throughout US history, you will see a reasonably steady occurrence of the random wacko murderer angry at the world, taking out some people before he kills himself. It seemed to be a "naturally occurring" phenomenon (quotes because, of course, there isn't anything natural about it).
Sometime around Jonesboro, though, the coverage made the act attractive. At this point, I no longer think of it as a "natural" occurrence. It's a trend, a fad, a public-validated means of self-expression. Nauseating, isn't it?
I am hopeful that the rapidly decreasing coverage of each successive event will cause the fad to pass quickly.
197. arkymalarky - 9/19/1999 1:56:16 PM
Some of the people who were involved in the Jonesboro crisis conducted a workshop at our school and their biggest emphasis after dealing with the initial crisis was on the media and how to help the victims and community while reporters and photographers are absolutely everywhere. Some of the stories they told about media tactics were thoroughly disgusting, and people didn't know how to deal with it because they were all over the place, listening to cell phone calls, calling victims' families at home, taking up hotel rooms (not a lot available in that town) that families and others who needed to be there could have used. They said most were reasonable, but the huge numbers made the few who weren't much harder to deal with.
198. Greystoke - 9/19/1999 5:06:46 PM
What happens to the old guns when the police buy new ones?
199. Greystoke - 9/19/1999 5:21:04 PM
Free speech versus the Colorado Liquor Enforcement Division.
( I found it amusing. )
200. Angel-Five - 9/20/1999 7:34:19 AM
Reasons to Not Live in the Ramparts
201. Angel-Five - 9/20/1999 7:40:57 AM
Reasons to Not Live in the Ramparts
202. robertjayb - 9/20/1999 4:19:00 PM
....
Brewer Guilty in Dragging Death
203. TrialShark - 9/20/1999 5:15:13 PM
As I said last week, Mr. Brewer's display of "candor" wasn't especially helpful to his cause.
204. TrialShark - 9/20/1999 5:25:13 PM
Cal --
You wrote, re mass killings: "Sometime around Jonesboro, though, the coverage made the act attractive. At this point, I no longer think of it as a 'natural' occurrence. It's a trend, a fad, a public-validated means of self-expression."
Isn't that just a nuanced way of saying "Guns don't kill people -- the six o'clock news kills people?"
205. JonesAtLaw - 9/20/1999 5:33:43 PM
Guns don't kill people, Charleton Heston kills people....
206. TrialShark - 9/20/1999 5:37:59 PM
Hey Jonesy!
I don't think Chucky H. has actually killed anyone, though he probably could qualify as a weapon of mass destruction.
Did you see his performance in "True Lies?" Anything that stinks up a theatre that bad has to violate the Geneva Convention.
207. JonesAtLaw - 9/20/1999 5:54:01 PM
Trial- agreed. Hey, I just saw Drudge on TV the other night between late night informercials. Why is he dressed like an extra for His Girl Friday? He really sees himself as a 90's Walter Winchell doesn't he?
208. CalGal - 9/20/1999 7:11:33 PM
TS,
For that particular category of wacko, yeah. That is what I'm saying.
209. Greystoke - 9/20/1999 7:11:49 PM
Another frivolous lawsuit.
( Getting castrated the hard way. )
210. Greystoke - 9/20/1999 7:29:39 PM
211. TrialShark - 9/20/1999 8:47:01 PM
Grey (re MSG NUM 209)
There is no easy way to be castrated. Although the guy at Luke AFB who did it to himself -- using the sawtooth edge of a fish-filleting knife -- still sort of stands out in my mind.
212. Greystoke - 9/20/1999 9:00:34 PM
Trialshark
"the guy at Luke AFB who did it to himself -- using the sawtooth edge of a fish-filleting knife"
Do you know why he did it?
213. TrialShark - 9/20/1999 9:06:03 PM
Grey --
He was about to be charged with molesting one of the young ladies in his church congregation. Apparently he recalled the Biblical passage "if thy right hand offends thee, cut it off," but realized that his hand wasn't the source of his troubles.
214. PsychProf - 9/20/1999 9:10:41 PM
TAIWAN EARTHQUAKE
Click on photo 
215. robertjayb - 9/20/1999 9:32:32 PM
...
I feel sorry for the Taiwanians.
216. TrialShark - 9/21/1999 1:26:52 AM
"I feel sorry for the Taiwanians."
Welcome to the Mote, Governor Bush.
217. bubbaette - 9/21/1999 11:07:13 AM
Virginia Governor Gilmore, ever the original thinker, feels that we haven't gotten tough enough on drugs and has made an unheard-of proposal -- a "War on Drug Kingpins"! Among his earth-shaking proposals are:
Requiring mandatory life sentences without parole for drug "kingpins", defined as anyone convicted of making a $100,000 profit in the previous 12 months, Selling 1 kg of heroin, 10 kg cocaine, 1 kg crack cocaine, 100 grams methamphetimine, or 260 lbs/50 plants of marijuana.
Why hasn't anyone every thought of having a "War on Drugs" before?
218. theDiva - 9/21/1999 11:13:04 AM
oh, as if drug kingpins pass out bidness cards and keep their books according to the accrual method.
God, I love the Commonwealth.
219. bubbaette - 9/21/1999 11:19:51 AM
I think most drug kingpins use double-entry bookkeeping. Wouldn't the prosecution need to know expenditures as well as receipts? And are the kingpins allowed standard deductions for business expenses?
220. theDiva - 9/21/1999 11:25:35 AM
Yeah, and you gotta watch 'em, because they can get real slippery on those bidness deductions. I mean, how can you determine when a hooker has been hired for bidness purposes? And then there's all that cheap champagne.
221. TrialShark - 9/21/1999 11:26:22 AM
Actually, the substantive terms of Governor Gilmore's proposal aren't that far-fetched. Ten kilos is a lot of cocaine.
And even if he is a latecomer to the war on drugs, at least it gives him something to do with his spare time. Everyone needs a hobby. His old one -- filing frivolous suits against prospective widows -- wasn't all that interesting.
222. bubbaette - 9/21/1999 11:28:07 AM
Trailshark
I especially like the "let's try this -- it's failed in the past" mentality.
223. JonesAtLaw - 9/21/1999 12:15:28 PM
I stick by my old TT tag line- "We still have a war on drugs because there are no good protest songs." Probably they keep forgetting the lyrics.
224. TrialShark - 9/21/1999 12:22:44 PM
bubba --
If at first you don't succeed, pass tougher sentencing guidelines.
225. ElliottRW - 9/21/1999 1:13:50 PM
Re: prospective widow
trialshark
What exactly is a "prospective widow" and what sorts of lawsuits might one file against one?
226. TrialShark - 9/21/1999 1:28:17 PM
ElliotRW --
Check out this link.
227. robertjayb - 9/21/1999 2:40:23 PM
.
slow news day...
HowdyDuty (the actual slug)
DALLAS (AP) - Big Tex's voice is changing this year.
Jim Lowe, 73, says his health is forcing him to give up the job of announcing greetings, announcements and commentary as the voice of the State Fair of Texas' famous 52-foot-tall cowboy.
``I won't be in any shape to take it on,'' Lowe said Monday, a week after doctors removed his gallbladder. ``I'll miss it like crazy.''
Booming out ``Howdy, pardner'' when the fair begins at 10 a.m. Friday will be Dan Alexander of Dallas, who has been singing advertising jingles since 1957.
``I'm kind of awestruck right now,'' Alexander, 64, told The Dallas Morning News. ``Those are big shoes to fill.''
228. Dantheman - 9/21/1999 2:45:37 PM
And here I thought a howdy duty was a tax on greeting cards...
229. ChristinO - 9/21/1999 2:54:52 PM
That's a nostalgia trip for me. Whenever our family would split up at the State Fair we'd agree to meet back up at the left boot of Big Tex.
230. TrialShark - 9/21/1999 7:47:21 PM
Grey --
I like the colorful links on the right-hand side of the page. Is it just a coincidence that the Washington Post is pink?
231. Spiderman - 9/21/1999 7:53:30 PM
The yellow CNN sucks, the pink post sucks, and the white fox is almost illegible.
232. JudithAtHome - 9/21/1999 7:56:24 PM
Well, they got the Dallas link the right color...just like the money over there.
233. Spiderman - 9/21/1999 7:57:49 PM
And why aren't they all the same size? Some kinda Mormon/Chinese moderator or something?
234. Greystoke - 9/21/1999 7:57:59 PM
Trialshark
Yes, its coincidence. I didn't mean to imply that the esteemed publication has a Commie pinko ideology.
I would attempt to get fancier, but there is a limitation of 40 characters per link name, including the html tags.
235. Greystoke - 9/21/1999 8:03:12 PM
Spiderman
Octo Octavius helped me do that just to confound you.
236. Spiderman - 9/21/1999 8:04:25 PM
Hi Tarzan,
Are Tonto and Frankenstein around here too?
237. robertjayb - 9/22/1999 12:23:47 AM
.
Maureen Dowd on the Forrest Gump biography of Ronald Reagan
238. JudithAtHome - 9/22/1999 11:19:58 AM
Did anyone see Politically Incorrect last night? Ann Coulter was put in her place by a young man who was a guest panelist; she tossed off the phrase "you people" to him and he jumped right on her. He asked, "Did you just say 'you people' to me? Do you mean blacks or fat people?" He was both and was holding his own in an argument with her over the founding fathers owning slaves and in one about obese people learning to accept themselves. I was cheering him on because I can't stand Ann Coulter but also because he was a good guest panelist, unlike many who are cowed by Mahr and the other panelists.
239. Thoughtful - 9/22/1999 12:38:30 PM
240. Thoughtful - 9/22/1999 12:38:53 PM
This is the current events page, no?
241. robertjayb - 9/22/1999 5:04:28 PM
Wm. F. Buckley,Jr., reviews articles on Bush and Buchanan
242. ElliottRW - 9/22/1999 5:05:46 PM
thoughtful
An electrifyingly funny pair of posts.
243. dusty - 9/22/1999 8:57:53 PM
Anyone else ashamed of the brazen hypocrisy of the administration's decision to sue the tobacco companies?
I say the tobacco companies should counter-sue for all the money they've saved the government in reduced SS payments. I'd be willing to bet that the savings far exceed the claimed costs.
I'd also ask for a refund of all excise (not income) taxes paid over the years.
244. Cygnus X-1 - 9/22/1999 10:27:55 PM
dusty, Re Message #243
I'm ashamed - ashamed that they're not going after Hostess & Tasty Cake, too. I mean come on! The stuff they make is so good yet so fattening. I'm sure they knew that the more fat & sugar they put into their products, the more people would eat. Just think of all of the shame and humiliation - not to mention health problems - suffered by obese people who eat their admittedly legal products. Why I'd be willing to say that they're responsible for the epidemic of obesity among our nation's youth!
Let's face it. Those who know what's best for us must rise and save us from ourselves.
245. TrialShark - 9/23/1999 2:17:34 AM
I say the tobacco companies should counter-sue for all the money they've saved the government in reduced SS payments.
Sure they should, dusty. I can almost hear closing arguments now:
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client deserves to be compensated for its unselfish contribution to the public good, which consists of killing worthless scum like you before you have a chance to suck at the teat of FDR's socialist abomination, the Social Security system."
Yessir. That'd be a real winner.
246. Aldavis - 9/23/1999 2:34:13 AM
dusty
I posted on the Political thread my thoughts on this. It won't be long before the Feds. go after the bear, wine and wiskey makers. Of course, they will have their little simp backers, as we see above, defending such outrageous behavior. They will lose this suit, because it has no basis in fact or in law. Now there are a lot of posters on the MOTe that claim to be lawyers. Let's hear them sefend this kind of nonsense. they have become expert at it over the last coubple of years.
247. TrialShark - 9/23/1999 3:00:43 AM
Hey al --
Aside from your personality issues, you seem to be a pretty bright guy: do you think a jury would buy dusty's argument that the cigarette industry deserves compensation for all the Social Security payments its products have saved over the years?
And if you don't think that's likely to be an especially-successful argument, why are you busting my chops for pointing it out?
248. Macnas - 9/23/1999 3:37:52 AM
It'll be very interesting to see how the US go about this, I find it hard to believe that after many years of taxing a product, thereby gaining from its sales as the manufacturer does, that they can turn around and sue 'em!
249. Bubbaette - 9/23/1999 7:15:46 AM
Macnas
Everytime the taxes increase on cigs, the leveying entity says that the tax is justified by the increased health and productivity taxes for smokers. I don't know if the Feds take a cut of that or not.
They're probably thinking, "we taxed the end user, maybe we can tax the manufacturer as well."
In our state, rather than using the proceeds from the states suit for things like stop-smoking programs or buying back farm tobacco allotments, they're currently talking about using the money to build roads and other projects usually provided from the general fund.
250. Dusty - 9/23/1999 8:16:30 AM
TrialShark
That. Of course, is why they cannot do it. Not because their argument has no merit, but because it wouldn't play well.
251. Dusty - 9/23/1999 8:19:06 AM
Aldavis
Why do you assume they will lose this suit? The attorneys general won similar suits with similarly weak arguments. (Ok, technically, they reached a settlement, but the industry was scared enough of the potential for loss to agree to fork over billions.)
252. Dusty - 9/23/1999 8:21:01 AM
Macnas
Not just collecting billions in taxes, but actively promoting the industry through massive subsidies.
253. Bubbaette - 9/23/1999 8:31:20 AM
Dusty
" Not because their argument
has no merit, but because it wouldn't play well. "
Also because their argument not only has no merit, but because it doesn't seem the tobacco companies would have any standing to sue. Why should the tobacco companies be compensated because smokers tend to live shorter lives? If anyone would be compensated or have the standing to sue based on shorter lives, it would be the smokers.
254. Dusty - 9/23/1999 8:45:35 AM
Bubbaette
Also because their argument not only has no merit,
What is your reasoning for saying that the argument has no merit?
but because it doesn't seem the tobacco companies would have any standing to sue.
If the government argues that tobacco companies owe them money when tobacco causes an increase in costs, why wouldn't the tobacco companies get credit when their product causes a decrease in costs?
Please understand. I am not arguing that the tobacco companies should prevail in such a counter-suit. I am using it to point out the idiocy of the government suit. If the government wants to make their case, they should be forced to live with the consequences, and the argument that tobacco reduces SS payments is as valid as the argument that tobacco increases medial costs (actually, it is far more valid, but that's a different subject.)
Why should the tobacco companies be compensated because smokers tend to live shorter lives? If anyone would be compensated or have the standing to sue based on shorter lives, it would be the smokers.
Smokers have already made this case. Courts are dealing with it. Separate issue.
255. Dusty - 9/23/1999 8:47:51 AM
Bubbaette
Why should the tobacco companies be compensated because smokers tend to live shorter lives?
I may have misunderstood your question. Are you saying you don't understand how tobacco saves the government money, or are you questioning why the tobacco companies should reap any such benefits?
256. Dusty - 9/23/1999 9:00:54 AM
As the Microsoft trial heads into the home stretch, anyone interested in a prediction contest? Informal, of course, because I don't know how to objectively "grade" answers, but make a prediction as to what the judge will rule, and we will see who does the best at predicting the outcome.
257. Bubbaette - 9/23/1999 9:16:58 AM
Their argument has no merit: Imagine an airline sued for wrongful death in the case of a pilot error or equipment failure. Would the airline be justified if, to offset their losses, they sued the gubmint for future S.S. payments not made to the dead? I don't think so.
Similarly, in a product liability case for infant deaths caused by faulty spacing in the crib bars, could the company counter-sue local goverment to offset payouts because now local government will be spared the cost of educating the now-dead children?
258. Dantheman - 9/23/1999 9:36:49 AM
Dusty,
Microsoft's lawyers made such a hash of their case that I cannot see how the judge will rule for them. That said, I have difficulty figuring out the right remedy. My best guess is that the judge's order will provide that Microsoft must not install its internet software, but must sell it separately. I think breaking up Microsoft will not happen here.
259. ranheim - 9/23/1999 9:57:51 AM
As you know, I have no use for government at any level.
The three levels of USA government take approximately 50% of all of our incomes in taxes; yet they are hungry for still more money to waste! Government is finding it difficult to raise taxes; bond issues; any other obvious source of money. Thus, the suit against tobacco. (As government knows no shame.)
If this suit wins, what is next? Booze? Twinkies?
In the "good ole days" a tithe went to the church. And another 10% went to the king. Should this % approach 25 - 33 1/3, the king was in danger. And more than one lost his head by becoming too greedy. How can we hold our current rulers accountable?
Recently there have been a whole host of rules and regulations designed to prevent any action against any government employee. Do these new regulations restrict speech? Or only action/s?
260. TrialShark - 9/23/1999 10:32:54 AM
ranheim --
"As you know, I have no use for government at any level."
Is this completely true, or are you engaging in maybe a little bit of hyperbole? I want to know because I'm thinking of going into a life of crime, and I want to know whose homes to rob when the owners are away. Folks who won't call the police -- because the have no use for government at any level -- seem like excellent candidates.
261. Dantheman - 9/23/1999 10:39:15 AM
ranheim,
And if I hit you with my car, are you going to sue me in a court the government provides? Or wouldn't you be driving on a government provided road?
262. Bubbaette - 9/23/1999 10:39:24 AM
The problem with "having no use" for government is deciding which parts of government one has no use for. Are you against Air Traffic Control? the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration? The police, firefighters, teachers? How about the Interstate highway system? Building Code inspectors? Social Security and Medicare? Public health in general?
263. ranheim - 9/23/1999 11:43:40 AM
I want the following from government - after all, I should expect something for all my tax dollars!
From feds : protect the borders from invasion -I'm not really sure where I stand on immigration. But, our border with Mexico is a scandal no matter how I resolve in my own mind the immigration issue. Domestic traquility is also in there. But, I don't trust the FBI. Social Security was a Depression program started by one of slimiest politicians of all time. Only Clinton has the potential of being as slimy as FDR.
From state : I don't drive very much. But, road up-keep for my wife.
I dis-trust all law enforcement : the old saw about giving a man/woman a uniform, a badge, and a gun. Ruins most people that wear them.
From local : don't bother me! Get out of my way!
Horace Mann was wrong. I don't think school should be compulsory.
The lame, the halt, and the blind can expect better care at the hands of the church than the government. I have read figures that Pat Robertson's Operation Blessing delivers 90 - 95 cents on the dollar to recipients. The government? I have read both 60 - 40 & 40 - 60. Bureaucrats squander about 50%!
264. DocBrown - 9/23/1999 12:00:33 PM
This morning NASA lost contact with the Mars Climate Orbiter.
First the Mars Observer and now this? The Angry Red Planet must be hiding something . . .
>;-)
265. PsychProf - 9/23/1999 12:06:25 PM
Ranheim...absolute crap from you today. Two members of my family are wheel-chair bound. The recent disability legislation has opened up the world for them. Falwell that. Where were you religious guys 20 years ago...
266. Bubbaette - 9/23/1999 12:07:28 PM
Ranheim
I think that the amount spent on the bureaucracy itself varies according to the specific program and level of government. Medicare, last time I looked at the figures, delivers 98 cents on the dollar while Medigap policies deliver about 40 cents on the dollar. Medicare doesn't have to advertise or provide a profit for shareholders.
Local schools are often pointed out as spending too much of their funding on administration. Depending on the type of school board your locality has, their policies may be the easiest for most folks to influence (if they try) because the officials are close to home and very tuned in to the local political process.
267. Thrakkorzog - 9/23/1999 12:11:57 PM
I was under the impression that smokers are, approximately, 25% of the population and the percentage is in decline. Does anyone know what the percentage of the obese is? Does obesity, which is linked to heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, and, depending on one's diet, certain cancers, ultimately cost the government more than cigarettes?
268. ranheim - 9/23/1999 12:15:56 PM
PP
It is impossible to argue with anecdotes like yours in #265.
But, how much have we spent, as a nation, to make curbs wheelchair friendly? Commercial buildings in general? Rest rooms? Bus systems?
etc.
Only a nation awash is cash as is the USA could afford such a law.
269. PsychProf - 9/23/1999 12:21:15 PM
Ranheim...if we take back the money spent, are we a better place? Chrissakes, you should hope for good health with that opine. Where would you spend the money? We are a wealthy place, and I am glad to have my tax dollars spent in this way. Perhaps some of the teenagers you suggest don't have to go to school will have some input here.
270. Uzmakk - 9/23/1999 12:26:30 PM
A bike rider was knocked off a highway overpass onto the highway below and was repeatedly run over by automobiles. No one stopped until a fellow with a flat tire decided to stop..
This in Florida.
271. TrialShark - 9/23/1999 12:37:08 PM
I have no use for government at any level.
I want the following from government ...
Both positions espoused by the same person. To me, they look a trifle contradictory. But maybe that's just me.
272. janjon - 9/23/1999 12:42:03 PM
The stuff posted by Ranheim just up above is not just contradictory, it is fatuous crap. Gives neanderthal a new meaning.
I assume he was going for effect and is into pulling legs a bit.
273. JudithAtHome - 9/23/1999 12:44:36 PM
George C. Scott....RIP.
274. robertjayb - 9/23/1999 12:50:51 PM
.
Jury hints at deadlock in dragging death trial
275. ranheim - 9/23/1999 1:00:40 PM
Believing in a minimalist government is neandertahl?
O.K. I plead guilty.
276. ElliottRW - 9/23/1999 1:08:28 PM
Thrakkorzog,
I'm not sure about obesity. Hope the following helps:
Tuesday March 2 5:19 PM ET
Starchy Foods May Be Fattening After All -US Study
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Starchy and sugary foods may deserve their bad
reputation, sparking overeating in some people, researchers reported
Tuesday.
(snip)
More than 50 percent of U.S. adults and one-fifth of U.S. children are
overweight.
U.S. guidelines use body mass index (BMI) to determine who weighs too
much. That is figured by dividing a person's weight in kilograms by
height in meters squared. For example, someone 5 feet 9 inches (1.75
meters) tall and weighing 155 pounds (70.5 kilograms) has a BMI of 23
-- considered healthy. At 169 pounds (76 kilograms), such a person has
a BMI of 25 and is considered overweight.
(From Yahoo news)
277. robertjayb - 9/23/1999 1:13:01 PM
.
Brewer gets death in dragging death trial
278. robertjayb - 9/23/1999 1:14:52 PM
279. Dusty - 9/23/1999 1:24:40 PM
Bubbaette
Yes,yes,no,maybe,generally yes with exceptions,no(for defense reasons),yes,yes,yes,not sure
280. Dusty - 9/23/1999 1:30:05 PM
Thrakkorzog
Smokers probably do not represent a net cost to government spending. Even excluding that fact that a sensible government (is that an oxymoron) should have considered reduced or eliminated payments for problems caused by voluntary idiocy.
The government spending on medical costs is probably close to a wash, and the savings from reduced SS are probably in the trillions.
I haven't looked into what the obese cost, but if it is over $1, then it is far greater than smokers net costs.
281. Dusty - 9/23/1999 1:38:11 PM
Bubbaette
Their argument has no merit: Imagine an airline sued for wrongful death in the case of a pilot error or equipment failure. Would the airline be justified if, to offset their losses, they sued the gubmint for future S.S. payments not made to the dead? I don't think so.
::sigh:: Let me repeat. I'm not making an agument that the countersuit has a lot of merit. It is weak. But it is probably stronger than the argument that the government should collect for payments to smokers.
People killed in aircraft accidents tend to be younger than those killed by smoking. While there is obviously a broad distribution, the "typical" airline death occurs to someone in their 30's or 40's while the typical smoker death is probably in the 60's (I'm guessing, but reasonably intelligent guesses). Thus, the person killed ina plane crash would have paid into the SS system for years, while the typical smoker who dies has been paying SS for many years and is now, or is about to start collecting. So an airline wouldn't want to make the arguemnt, because it would cost them more than they saved.
282. Aldavis - 9/23/1999 1:42:00 PM
It seems to me that the only thing Liberals do not like about government is that it is not quite big and powerful enough. It is obvious that ranheim is using hyperbole and I'm guess the reat of you have never done such a thing for effect.
bubbaette
You do mention some things that govevernment does that I don't like and the most obvious is S.S. It is a disaster, IMHO. Many zoning lawa and building code laws are needlessly oppresive. How cold does it get in Martinez, Calif.? Is it really necessary to have double paned windowns? Or R-30 insulation roof and floor? Or gaskets on every exterior socket? How much interaction have you had with building inspectors? Are you really happy with how much permits cost to construct anything? How much were the permits to build the pyrimids?
Unfortunately for me, I have a golf appoinment and cannot stay for all the fireworks. But I'll agitate as much as possible.
283. Dantheman - 9/23/1999 2:00:18 PM
Aldavis,
"How much were the permits to build the pyramids?"
How many workers died in their construction?
284. PsychProf - 9/23/1999 2:00:24 PM
Davis....if Ranheim really doesn't believe what he says, then I suggest he say what he means...
285. robertjayb - 9/23/1999 2:02:01 PM
.
AP reports dragging trial result
286. Aldavis - 9/23/1999 2:39:21 PM
Dantheman
17,645
287. Dantheman - 9/23/1999 2:43:20 PM
Aldavis,
I'll accept your number as correct, since I wasn't around back then. Do you believe that not having to pay a governmental entity to review the plans justifies this loss of life? (this is a moot point anyway, since the pyramids were built _by_ the government and the plans were surely internally reviewed, so it would necessitate one arm of the government of ancient Egypt paying another)
288. Aldavis - 9/23/1999 2:50:16 PM
HYPERBOLE PRESS, 9/23/99
"The Federal Govenment has just filed suit againt the Harley Davidson Co. in an attempt to recover the costs of caring for all persons injured in motorcycle accidents. A spokesman for the Justice Department pointed out that the Harley Davidson Co. should have, in manufacturing their product, the possibility of road accidents, and endevored to make their product more user friendly. When questioned how they might have done this he replied, "One thing they could have done is to provided their bikes with four wheels. Also, had they encased them in a protective covering, such a a steel housing, while accidents would have still occured, injuries would not have been as severe.
When a spokesman of the Harley Davidson Co. was asked to comment on the Government's action his only response was that they werte making an attempt to start negotiations, using a group of their main users, the Hells Angels. "It is our feeling," he continued, "that a meeting of that group and the members of the Justice Department would result in a satisfactory settlement.
When the spokesman for the Justice Department was told this, he seemed too shaken to respond.(30)
289. TrialShark - 9/23/1999 2:50:38 PM
"Are you really happy with how much permits cost to construct anything?"
No. I want everything for free. I'm mature enough to recognize that isn't the way the world works, however, which is why I pay my taxes and the various user fees charged by state and local governments without whining. Much.
290. Aldavis - 9/23/1999 2:58:01 PM
Dantheman
What in the world does your posts have to do with the legitimate questions I have raised? Why not speak to them. Have you had any experience with building department or building inspectors? Do you have any knowledge as to how much all the buearacracy has added to the cost of a home? Do you think homes are underpriced in America today and as easy to purchase for a young family as they were in past years?
I purchased my first home in San Mateo.in 1954 for $13,000. That home could not be built today, but it still exists and would sell today for over $300,000. At the time I was driving a bread truck. Can a bread truck driver today buy a house that costs over $300,000?
Those who seem to think that government is the be all and end all of existance amuse me.
291. Aldavis - 9/23/1999 3:10:44 PM
TrialShark
You also seem incapable of dealing with the questions I raised. Of course, that's nothing new.
292. Dantheman - 9/23/1999 3:13:39 PM
Aldavis,
I was speaking to your questions. You seem to ignore the fact that something of value is actually gained by having building inspectors do their job, that the building is actually better built (if you don't believe it, ask the people of Turkey or Taiwan where the builders paid off the inspectors and the buildings collapsed in recent earthquakes).
I have no idea why you believe that the fact that the market for existing housing has increased so tremendously in the last 45 years is evidence that building inspectors do not do legitimate work. Please explain.
P.S. I have considerable experience with building inspectors (both representing them and opposing them on behalf of builders). The cost they add to the price of new housing is a very small amount. The value that they add can be considerable.
293. 109109 - 9/23/1999 3:18:15 PM
I'm pleased to announce that contestant number 2 in the Texas dragging case has received a sentence of death.
294. RosettaSTONE - 9/23/1999 3:21:53 PM
Niner:
Please, that's old news. See post #285.
295. Aldavis - 9/23/1999 3:22:33 PM
Did I say that building inspectors added to the cost of housing? I did not. Can building inspectors be unreasonable and add to the cost of a job? Of course. Were the things I was required to do when i built a house in Martinez, Calif., unreasonable and costly? I think so. Has governemnt regulations been a cause of higher home cost? If you don't think so,... well that's what makes horse races. I have a friend who built a home just outside of Santa Cruz who incurred $30,000 in costs, all government related, before he put a shovel in the ground. I must leave now to play golf, but I will return and speak to you again.
296. 109109 - 9/23/1999 3:22:48 PM
Rosetta
It is not old news that I am pleased.
297. Bubbaette - 9/23/1999 3:27:28 PM
When people talk about how much they hate the government and how government is a waste of resources and can't do anything right, I'm reminded of two situations that have made the news in my area in recent years.
1) A nursing home burnt down and many of the residents died. The hue and cry? "Why didn't the government do something!" "We need regulations to require sprinkler systems in nursing homes!" So all regulations are bad til your granny burns up in the nursing home.
2) Homeowners in certain areas of the state were finding that parts of their foundation -- porches, chimny's, etc., were separating from their houses. The culprit? Shrink-swell soil. The hue and cry --"Why didn't the buiding inspector/builder tell me about this?" "We need regulations to warn people if they're builing in a shrink/swell soil area. Upshot -- regulations are terrible until they're protecting *your* property value.
Before the advent of Social Security, 1/3 of all elderly people lived in poverty. Since then, the poverty rate has declined to that of the population in general. Don't like SS? Give it back.
298. Dantheman - 9/23/1999 3:31:20 PM
Aldavis,
You previously asked "are you really happy with how much permits cost to construct anything?" That is where you said that building inspectors add to the cost of housing.
For your friend with the $30,000 pre-construction costs, how much of it dealt with soil studies for wetlands demarcation (so that the new construction did not harm the neighboring environment), flood plain demarcation (so that the building did not get flooded), steep slope demarcation (so that the house was not destroyed in the next mudslide), etc? How much of it was caused by the owner asking to avoid the local zoning regulations?
299. Bubbaette - 9/23/1999 3:34:50 PM
Zoning! I hate god-damned zoning! The government should NOT be able to tell me what I can do with my own property. Unless someone wants to build a burger king next door to my $400,000 house, in which case, by gum, the gummint should DO something!
300. Dantheman - 9/23/1999 3:41:46 PM
Actually, I find private homeowner regulations generally sillier than government ones. The government at least does not try to tell you what color you shades must be, nor what color you can paint your house, nor whether you can park a camper in your driveway, nor whether you can have in your driveway an unregistered car, nor ...
(I've seen all of these and more in homeowner's association regulations).
301. PsychProf - 9/23/1999 3:42:01 PM
302. TrialShark - 9/23/1999 3:46:11 PM
Al --
"You also seem incapable of dealing with the questions I raised."
You mean like the one about how much the construction permits cost for the pyramids?
You seem to like fuming and sputtering and calling names, pal, and that's your right; but if you expect anyone to take your questions seriously when you toss in such obvious nonsense, you're likely to be disappointed.
303. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 3:50:51 PM
This argument over whether government is good or evil is really quite silly.
Of course we need a certain amount of regulation and wealth redistribution in a civilized society. Pure capitalism has many negative side effects, one of which is that if you don't work, you don't eat. The vast majority of Americans rightly find that unacceptable.
Of course it's fair to complain when government (as is its nature) starts to intrude into areas in which it has no business. For instance, Social security is a sham and should be phased out as soon as practicable. If you want to replace it with some sort of mandatory retirement account, in which the individual gets to decide how his investment funds are to be invested, that certainly makes sense.
As far as nursing homes burning down or mandatory property inspections, those are 2 more excellent examples of areas where government has no business. Because in both cases, the property owner already has a strong incentive to protect his own property as he or she sees fit and the government regulation is a burdensome redundancy.
304. RosettaSTONE - 9/23/1999 3:52:37 PM
It's fun to read all these government workers, logging on to mote during "business" hours, telling the rest of us that we need more regulations and taxes.
305. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 3:55:20 PM
Good point, Rosetta. If any of the people arguing with Al are currently employed by the government and are at work while we speak, you have proven Al's point for him. Move on.
306. TrialShark - 9/23/1999 3:55:37 PM
Rosie --
There are government workers in the Mote? I thought we all agreed they wouldn't be given the URL or taught the secret handshake.
307. JonesAtLaw - 9/23/1999 3:56:56 PM
Aldavis- I appreciate your viewpoint. I don't agree with it, heavans knows, but I agree that you could use some more meat to the arguments. It may not get cold in California, but how about cooling? I would imagine that your local code requirements for insulation are aimed at that. Less electricity demand etc.
If you want to hear an outside view, I think that Calfornia is too damn lax on a lot of its codes. How ofter do we hear of houses burned in the chaperal in canyons where they have shake shingles on the roof, or asphalt. Why not straw or kindling for godsake?
308. RosettaSTONE - 9/23/1999 3:58:11 PM
Where's boomerjeff when I need him?
309. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 3:59:42 PM
Yes, and let's outlaw cars while we're at it.
310. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 4:01:43 PM
Let's outlaw smoking and fat people (they would get sent to the fat farm) and motorcycles and knives and guns and teeth. Everyone please remove your teeth.
311. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 4:03:07 PM
Oh, we must outlaw wood as well, anything flammable, in fact.
It's called FREEDOM, folks, look into it.
312. Ronski - 9/23/1999 4:05:58 PM
We don't have to outlaw teeth. We already subsidize sugar growers.
313. Thrakkorzog - 9/23/1999 4:12:01 PM
Bubbaette,
In the case of the shrink swell soils, the inspectors did not do their job. Therefore, the home owners bought houses assuming good faith in the inspectors who failed to do what the state required them to do. Of course, the value of the properties was significantly decreased, since few people want to buy houses with huge cracks in them.
Had Virginia not required inspections at the time that those houses were constructed (I believe those houses were built in the 1980's) and then the home owners complained, then your analogy would make more sense. In that case, the home owners would have bought at their own risk.
314. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 4:19:13 PM
I'm sure that Bubbaette will be pleased to hear that her line of reasoning almost made sense. She's probably enjoying a nice after-donut nap, however. Then, her hard day's work at the government done, back home. Tough life.
315. ranheim - 9/23/1999 4:24:54 PM
Since I work for myself, may I log on at any time?
#297 Bubba
I spent 9 years as an USAF Flight Surgeon. I was a part of the regulation making process. And since then, I have never said "There aught to be a law" for I know, first hand, how they can be made. Seems to me that if my mother, who lives in assisted living at 87, gets burned up in a fire, my siblings and I would have recourse with laws already on the books. I would assume those laws would be civil in nature and would have nothing to do with govt regulation/s.
Someone mentioned that prior to Social Security 1/3 of those USA citizens 65 or older were living in poverty. 2 or 3 years ago I had the unfortunate experience of listening to David Bonior. This Democratic Party stalwart was saying that, currently, 1/3 of senior citizens were living in poverty and that the majority party in congress was being pinchpenny in not granting them more benefits. Seems, according to Bonior, we haven't made any headway with poverty despite the huge amount of Social Security taxes collected since its inception.
I firmly believe in Mr. Jefferson's "The government that governs least governs best." IMO the government is a very poor and very expensive "do-gooder".
316. TrialShark - 9/23/1999 4:27:07 PM
ranheim --
"I spent 9 years as an USAF Flight Surgeon."
Welcome, fellow wing-nut! Where were you stationed?
317. Nostradamus - 9/23/1999 4:28:04 PM
Anyway, if you want fewer old people living in poverty, give them money. But call it what it is: Welfare for Old People. Don't pretend they've earned it.
318. Thrakkorzog - 9/23/1999 4:28:58 PM
Regarding the nursing homes, I am not familiar with that actual case. However, I assume that Virginia does license nursing homes, and I would assume that sprinklers would be a normal fire code requirement. If the government does not license nursing homes, then I assume the burden of picking a safe one. However, if the government is going to have licensing, I don't see why I can't assume that the state will do its job correctly.
319. Uzmakk - 9/23/1999 4:33:17 PM
re:#270 posted by Uzmakk the Magnificent
If the government was smaller, would that increase or decrease the chance that Floridians would drive over the body of a man in the highway without stopping?
320. ranheim - 9/23/1999 4:38:18 PM
TS
I interned at Madigan General Hospital between Seattle and Tacoma. It rained/misted all the damn time!
2 1/2 years at Naha Air Base on Okinawa. My wife and I saw much of the Orient. Thank you taxpayers of the 60s!
1+ year loosely attached to the Surgeon Genneral's Office in Washington D.C. I was, supposedly, learning Russian and how to be a spy. I failed at both. I have never been more broke. On a Capt. pay in D.C.!
2 1/2 years at our embassy in Moscow. My wife and I saw all the former "Soviet Bloc" countries, some of Germany and Scandanavia. Again, thank you taxpayers of the 60s.
1 year as dispensary commander at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque. I learned that I was not boss material in that year. Very useful information!
What was your job? where?
321. bubbaette - 9/23/1999 4:53:04 PM
Nostradamus
I agree that there are featherbeders in government who do not earn their keep. There are also lazy brainless twits in private industry, charities, churches, and every other profession you can mention. I've logged more than 200 hours of overtime this year -- all uncompensated. If I had wished to, instead of leaving Washington to work at the state government -- closer to where the rubber meets the road, IMO -- I could easily have become a lobbyist, making 3 times the salary I currently make. Instead, I went back to school for a master's degree and work at a job that I truly love. Part of the reason why I didn't become a lobbyist (I had offers of short term projects doing "grass roots" lobbying while I was in school) is I have a very difficult time lying for the highest bidder. Instead, I feel that I have a responsibility to weigh policy questions among the various stakeholders, seek and incorporate comment, mediate between competing interests and try to do the greatest good for the greatest number of citizens. Moreover, I feel that I should strive to do the best job for each individual that I can, regardless of their party. I don't participate in party politics at all since I started working for the state since I feel strongly about non-partisan service and accountability. I am still allowed, as a citizen, to vote.
You may think that you're an all-seeing all-knowing kind of guy, I differ in my opinion.
322. PsychProf - 9/2