Uzmakk - It is a legitimate function of government to protect the rights of those living within its borders. If the government can't protect the rights of individuals, what point is there in having a government?
Those who want to ship Elian back are keen on his father's rights, but they ignore Elian's rights. An individual's rights trump anyone else's claim to him, even his father's.
10013. Wombat - 4/5/2000 3:14:46 PM
Were the best interests of Elian represented when his mother and her ne'er do well boyfriend decided to subject Elian to a dangerous sea voyage in a manifestly unsafe "vessel?" Are Elian's best interests being represented by his Miami relatives displaying him like an animal in a zoo?
10014. Ronski - 4/5/2000 3:16:13 PM
Why JJ, don't you know that the government is supposed to:
Protect you from yourself;
Prevent you from protecting yourself;
And give you other people's money?
10015. JudithAtHome - 4/5/2000 3:16:48 PM
JJ:
Please disabuse yourself of the notion that I know nothing about the fundamental differences between Cuba and this country. I not only know the difference, I have friends who have gone to Cuba and I know people who have come FROM Cuba to live here.
And yes, I do think the mother was following her boyfriend..he was the one who provided the boat and he was the one who asked her to come. Or do you not believe any of the things the family of the mother has said? If you don't, why do you believe what the Miami Cubans say so completely...do you not think HER family might have had an inkling of her feelings?
I am a mother and I say the boy belongs with his father....
10016. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:18:42 PM
Wombat
"Were the best interests of Elian represented when his mother and her ne'er do well boyfriend decided to subject Elian to a dangerous sea voyage in a manifestly unsafe "vessel?" Are Elian's best interests being represented by his Miami relatives displaying him like an animal in a zoo?"
Let the family court decide. That is where free societies determine the best interests of a child.
10017. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:20:02 PM
BTW, I was watching Jose Serrano (D-NY) on Chris Matthews and he could not bring himself to say that Cuba was not free. He kept lamely saying it was "different".
I know Puerto Ricans hate Cubans, and vice versa, but what is up with that?
10018. Wombat - 4/5/2000 3:20:33 PM
The INS has jurisdiction. Or would you just as soon skip the rule of law?
10019. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:21:09 PM
Let the family court decide. That is where free societies determine the best interests of a child.
SHouldn't you finish the sentence? That is where free societies determine the best interests of a child when it suits them to do so for political reasons--otherwise, send the kid back to a repressive regime without even considering the question?
Besides, how do you square this against the efforts of US citizens to get their children back from parents living in other countries? How will the US look if they seem to be determining who is fit to be parents based on the country they live in?
10020. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:21:55 PM
Wombat
Agreed. So, let the appeal be heard.
And if the Graham/Smith bill passes, the family court would have jurisdiction.
Or do I have that wrong?
10021. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:22:00 PM
Besides, Niner, it's the INS who determines this. Why on earth this push for family court? Since when do they have jurisdiction?
10022. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:22:16 PM
Oops--didn't see Wombat's post.
10023. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:22:19 PM
Cal
I got. Inconsistency.
10024. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:23:13 PM
Niner,
Apparently not, or you wouldn't answer questions as if it didn't exist.
10025. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 3:25:17 PM
Cal - You are merely incapable of understanding my disgust with an inconsistent policy.
Repression in Cuba is irrelevant, but an inconsistent policy here is not? The issue here is Elian and what is best for him. He should not be made a victim because we don't have our act together. I am disgusted as well, but I can't see taking it out on Elian.
When children's rights matter only because they come from a country whose leader we've decided to disapprove of, things are getting pretty dicey.
First, we didn't just decide to disapprove of Castro. There was a little incident called the Cuban Missle Crisis, and his alliance wtih a country that had sworn to destroy us, among other things. I believe the rights of all children matter (even unborn children), and they trump his parents' rights. I would like to see a more consistent policy, but I see no reason to sacrifice Elian to that end.
10026. AceofSpades - 4/5/2000 3:26:46 PM
"Were the best interests of Elian represented when his mother and her ne'er do well boyfriend decided to subject Elian to a dangerous sea voyage in a manifestly unsafe "vessel?"
Hm. And it just so happens the Father called the Miami relatives to let them know she was on her way. Looks like pops knew about her plans and approved of him. Though you won't catch him saying so with Fidel's Goon Squad with a gun to his back.
10027. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:27:27 PM
Indeed, the Smith-Graham bill would transfer jurisdiction from the INS to state family court - the traditional venue for determining what is in the best interest of a child.
Moreover, disposition in the state family court would be quicker than disposition before the 11th Circuit.
And parental rights are extremely difficult to divest under Florida family law.
Sounds like a plan.
10028. Wombat - 4/5/2000 3:29:13 PM
Assuming it is passed and not vetoed.
10029. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:29:52 PM
Repression in Cuba is irrelevant, but an inconsistent policy here is not?
You got it.
The issue here is Elian and what is best for him.
No, it's really not. The issue here is that a kid came to the country on a boat and he has to go back to his father. It's not our job, really, to determine what's best for him. Once we established that he was a primary caregiver, our task should have been finished.
First, we didn't just decide to disapprove of Castro.
I didn't say, "just". I said "decided to disapprove of". I was not ignoring history. Given our welcoming behavior to other repressive regimes, I am disinclined to gasp in horror at Castro, or accept it as justification for the nonsense that is going on.
10030. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:32:01 PM
Indeed, the Smith-Graham bill would transfer jurisdiction from the INS to state family court - the traditional venue for determining what is in the best interest of a child.
Ah. Did they transfer jurisidiction for all children in this situation, or just Elian? I mean, being as it's "traditional" and all.
Besides, I hear they don't even have votes among the Republicans, do they?
10031. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:32:48 PM
Wombat
25 electoral votes that it won't be vetoed. Of course, it may require Gore on his knees before the President.
Still, if paramount to you is the best interests of the child, I assume you agree that a family court -as opposed to an administrative agency vested with power to determine immigration issues - is the best place for that determination.
And it also has speed on its side.
10032. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 3:33:17 PM
Wombat - Were the best interests of Elian represented when his mother and her ne'er do well boyfriend decided to subject Elian to a dangerous sea voyage in a manifestly unsafe "vessel?"
Many people have endured hardships and taken tremendous risks to gain freedom. It is hard for us who have always lived in freedom to judge life without it. Considering the experiences of others throughout history, I would have to say it was in Elian's best interests.
Are Elian's best interests being represented by his Miami relatives displaying him like an animal in a zoo?
Yes. Without the publicity, Elian would have been disposed of in short order.
10033. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 3:33:58 PM
Ronski - Why JJ, don't you know that the government is supposed to. ..
LOL!
10034. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:34:23 PM
Cal
As I understand the Graham-Smith bill, it covers only Elian Gonzales, and not all other children who are washed up on shore with a surviving parent in another repressive country demanding their return.
10035. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:34:40 PM
Still, if paramount to you is the best interests of the child, I assume you agree that a family court - as opposed to an administrative agency vested with power to determine immigration issues - is the best place for that determination.
Try not to be absurd. The issue is whether or not there needs to be any discussion of "best interests of the child", given that a father exists and wants the child.
10036. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:35:24 PM
As I understand the Graham-Smith bill, it covers only Elian Gonzales, and not all other children who are washed up on shore with a surviving parent in another repressive country demanding their return.
Exactly. So why on earth would you refer to it as "traditional", as if we are finally reverting poor Elian to the norm that all children everywhere are allowed?
10037. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:36:31 PM
Cal
Thank you for explication of your issue. I was conversing with Wombat on something he had posted, another issue, in 10013.
10038. Wombat - 4/5/2000 3:37:47 PM
And that the only reason the father is considered "unfit" is that he lives in a country that is deemed unsuitable for a child to return to. Unlike Haiti.
10039. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:38:10 PM
Family court is the "traditional" venue for determining the best interests of a child when there is a legal dispute.
The Smith-Graham bill is not a traditional piece of legislation.
10040. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:38:33 PM
Yes, I know. But "I was talking to so and so" never works, and I was objecting to your use of the word "traditional"--as if Elian's case is some singular situation that all the other children in these cases have access to.
10041. 109109 - 4/5/2000 3:39:45 PM
Cal
The field is yours.
10042. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:40:32 PM
Family court is the "traditional" venue for determining the best interests of a child when there is a legal dispute.
Only when everyone is agreed to have standing, Niner. The relatives don't have standing.
And then, of course, there is the fact that it is only "traditional" when dealing with children who are living in this country--something that isn't true here, either. So it's not "traditional" at all, no matter how hard you try to finesse it.
You can't make this a legitimate custody issue, Niner. That's the problem.
10043. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 3:41:38 PM
Judith - I do think the mother was following her boyfriend..he was the one who provided the boat and he was the one who asked her to come
Do you really think that was the sole reason? I have trouble believing that she was happy as a clam in Cuba and still decided to risk death and the death of her child just to follow her boyfriend.
Or do you not believe any of the things the family of the mother has said? If you don't, why do you believe what the Miami Cubans say so completely
You should know by now that I don't take anyone's word. I look at the situation and decide what is reasonable. It is not reasonable that a mother would risk her life and the life of her child to simply follow her boyfriend.
10044. CalGal - 4/5/2000 3:42:22 PM
Niner,
I don't want "the field", for heaven's sake. It's not personal, so quit leaving in a huff.
10045. dusty - 4/5/2000 3:43:10 PM
109109
Of course, it may require Gore on his knees before the President.
Eeeeewwww!
10046. Ronski - 4/5/2000 3:45:34 PM
I still would prefer to see the father and his wife and kids stay here on American soil, not at the Cuban interests section of another's country's embassy, and probably including the two grannies for safe measure, letting the father then decide.
Since Castro has agreed to let the father come here, which he had not done earlier, I don't see why the above cannot be accomplished.
My guess is it is entirely possible the father would want to go back to Cuba, in which case there is no question he should be free to take the boy back with him, being the boy's closest relative. I wouldn't like the boy going back to a country where he is the property of the state and where he has no hope of self-determination, but I still think the father's relationship comes first.
Where parents rights do not come first are in cases of clear abuse or neglect. What Castro promises is pyschological and spiritual abuse, but that still happens a lot of places, unfortunately.
10047. Wombat - 4/5/2000 3:51:39 PM
How much longer is Castro going to be around? And once he dies, how much longer will his system last? Not long, and not long.
10048. Ronski - 4/5/2000 3:54:10 PM
I agree the system is doomed, but it may take a bit longer than we might like. There are other authoritarians in the wings.
10049. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 4:00:40 PM
Wombat - How much longer is Castro going to be around? And once he dies, how much longer will his system last? Not long, and not long.
And this is relevant how?
10050. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 4:03:12 PM
Cal - It's not personal
You certainly seem to be taking it personally. The level of anger and vitriol in your posts seem to indicate that you are not looking at the issue objectively.
10051. Raskolnikov - 4/5/2000 4:04:59 PM
I see no reason why communism in Cuba will end with Castro. Kim pere's death in North Korea didn't result in the predicted collapse. Do Fidel or Raoul have any kids?
10052. Wombat - 4/5/2000 4:07:42 PM
Ronski:
Yes. And many of them are in Miami. (I wouldn't want to be Elian's father when the exiles return to Cuba in the aftermath of Castro's demise. Of course, they might decide to stay here, which would put a bit of a crimp in their claims to be political refugees.)
10053. Raskolnikov - 4/5/2000 4:10:50 PM
toys. sorry.
10054. Raskolnikov - 4/5/2000 4:12:49 PM
toys again.
10055. CalGal - 4/5/2000 4:15:56 PM
The level of anger and vitriol in your posts seem to indicate that you are not looking at the issue objectively.
I'm not angry about it. I just express my loathings with passion.
10056. Ronski - 4/5/2000 4:17:43 PM
Wombat,
If history is any judge, some will stay and some will return. Many Baltic-Americans who had been here for four decades or who had been born and raised here returned after the Commie Russky overlords were gone.
10057. Ronski - 4/5/2000 4:18:56 PM
And I think the Miami version is a much milder form of authoritarianism.
10058. Wombat - 4/5/2000 4:37:13 PM
I think that many of the older exiles fit into the "learned nothing, forgotten nothing" category (a la post-Napoleon Bourbons).
10059. JudithAtHome - 4/5/2000 4:40:03 PM
JJ:
I don't know how well you know women but they will do many strange things that defy explanation in order to follow a man. I don't know that it was her sole reason for coming here but then, YOU don't know that it wasn't.
10060. robertjayb - 4/5/2000 4:56:32 PM
.
Be Careful Judith!
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) - Tarrant County was added Wednesday to the state quarantine that restricts the movement of commercial bee operations after killer bees were found.
10061. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 4:57:54 PM
Judith - I, too, have known women to do strange things to keep a boyfriend. I just think it is unlikely that a woman would risk her life and more importantly her son's life. It is not impossible, just unlikely. I object to those who choose to demonize her for political purposes. It is true I don't know her motives, but I am not going to believe what someone said someone said when it defies reason.
10062. Ronski - 4/5/2000 5:00:13 PM
Wombat,
I'm sure that many of those who saw everything that was wrong with Fidel did not see the shortcomings of Fulgencio, but then their oxen were not being gored by the latter.
10063. SnowOwl - 4/5/2000 5:04:16 PM
I don't see how the mother's motivations, even assuming we could know them, are relevant. She died. The child has a father who is capable of caring for his son and who wants him.
10064. JudithAtHome - 4/5/2000 5:04:42 PM
JJ:
Object to those who try to demonize her for political purposes ? You may well do so but how is it any different than those who are holding Elian up above the crowds and using his name and picture in literature asking for money to elect Republicans who support their cause?
10065. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 5:10:22 PM
SnowOwl - The argument has been made that the mother gave her life so her son could be free. Granted this is an appeal to emotionalism, but as emotional appeals go, it is pretty good. To counter this, the other side has tried to claim that she wasn't really seeking freedom, she was just following her boyfriend.
Yes, the boy has a father as well as several other relatives who are able and willing to care for him. The US has to determine what is best for the child, return him to his father in Cuba or allow him to stay with relatives in the US.
10066. SnowOwl - 4/5/2000 5:14:13 PM
I thought the US had made that determination, and that determination was being appealed by the Miami relatives.
10067. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:16:33 PM
Snow, you're not going to let pesky facts get in the way, are you?
10068. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 5:18:02 PM
Judith - It was necessary for the relatives to get Elian's face before the public. It is too easy for a faceless boy to get lost in the INS machine. They had to show that this boy was not just another statistic but was in fact a real, live child. The publicity is all that has kept Elian in this country.
I agree it is cheesy to use his image for fundraising.
10069. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:19:23 PM
Actually, I love Lance Morrow's essay title: "What if Elian were Ugly?"
10070. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:20:08 PM
Oh, wait. It was "What if Elian were Pug Ugly? Or Black?"
10071. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 5:22:42 PM
SnowOwl - No case is complete until the appeals are exhausted.
10072. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:23:53 PM
Actually, it's not true. The US government has the right at any time--and always had the right--to take Elian away and send him back to Cuba.
10073. JudithAtHome - 4/5/2000 5:24:08 PM
On PI the other night, someone said what if he were a 40 year old gardner with back pain..
Yeah yeah yeah, JJ, they had to show he is not some faceless boy. What about the thousands of other boys who get sent back? The ones not lucky enough to have zealots for relatives? You are amazing...do you honestly believe this garbage?
10074. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 5:25:22 PM
Cal - That may be technically true, but it would look bad politically.
10075. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:26:25 PM
It is technically true, which means that your statement: "No case is complete until the appeals are exhausted" sounds good, but is, er, "technically" untrue.
10076. ChristinO - 4/5/2000 5:26:52 PM
What if his mother died in a car accident smuggling him over the border from Mexico? You can guarandamntee he'd be back in Mexico city within 24 hours.
10077. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:27:44 PM
Morrow also makes the point that if it had been Elian's father who died on the raft and his mother waiting in Cuba, all this discussion would be moot--he'd be back home with Mom.
10078. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 5:29:01 PM
Judith - On PI the other night, someone said what if he were a 40 year old gardner with back pain..
Then it wouldn't be a question. As a Cuban refugee, he would have been granted immediate residency. The only reason Elian hasn't is because he is child.
What about the thousands of other boys who get sent back?
Cuban refugees do not get sent back. If his mother had lived, this would never have made the news.
10079. marshame - 4/5/2000 5:30:34 PM
What is the law with regard to Cubans who flee Cuba and make it to the US? Do they have any special status compared to Mexicans, for example, who enter the US by means other than proper INS procedures? I am thinking of the boat people from Haiti who were turned away bu the Coast Guard only a few feet from the shore. I remember hearing that supposedly if they made it to land they could claim political asylum. Is that true for Cubans? If so, then obviously we have the question of who speaks for a minor child.
10080. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:30:43 PM
Children from other countries get sent back. And children with parents in other countries get sent back.
10081. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:31:41 PM
Marsha,
Yes, Cubans have special status.
It would be ironic, wouldn't it, if Elian's lasting legacy was that we revisit this bullshit exemption and turn Cubans back into illegal immigrants like the rest of the boat people?
10082. JudithAtHome - 4/5/2000 5:33:23 PM
And those were the ones I was referring to...not Cubans.
10083. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 5:39:31 PM
Cal - It is technically true, which means that your statement: "No case is complete until the appeals are exhausted" sounds good, but is, er, "technically" untrue.
It means that the government can act without resorting to the courts. The INS can claim jurisdiction and deport the child without a court order. Unless the courts issue a restraining order, there is nothing to stop them. However, it would look bad politically do so since it would deny the child due process.
10084. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:45:13 PM
No, it doesn't deny the child due process. The child's legal guardian is not asking for it.
And I'm not denying it would look bad politically. Happily, more people think the Cuban immigrants look bad at this point than disapprove of the US government's handling. With enough stupidity on their part, no doubt Castro's numbers will go up, too.
10085. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 5:55:20 PM
Cal - His de facto guardians asked for it.
10086. CalGal - 4/5/2000 5:56:01 PM
They had no standing, JJ. That's the whole problem.
10087. JJBiener - 4/5/2000 6:42:10 PM
Cal - It is not quite so clear as you would like it to be.
10088. CalGal - 4/5/2000 7:07:57 PM
JJ,
It is, actually, much clearer than you would like to be, and the US's legal position has proven that from the start. That being said, you are incorrect in your assumption that I think the resolution of the issue is "clear".
What I am certain of is that I have no patience with any objection to his returning to his father that can't be applied to any other child whose mother brings him to this country illegally. And I have no patience with anyone who decides that they are better for a child than his father is, just because they live in a country with more freedom.
But don't confuse my impatience with the reasons with a certainty that the issue itself will be resolved any other way. Just because I don't think your objections are irrelevant doesn't mean that I think political reaction to the Bogeyman Cuba might cause him to stay here, that the father might want to defect, that the whinings of the Miami relatives might assist them in stealing the kid from his father. It could all happen. It wouldn't make it any more the right thing to do.
So it's not that I'm sure how it will turn out--although lately, things are looking up. It's just that I'm quite sure how I feel about it. Don't confuse the two.
10089. wonkers2 - 4/5/2000 9:08:23 PM
The Elian Gonzalez affair serves both the interests of the Gusanos in Miami and the interests of Fidel Castro very well. Both may be expected to prolong it as long as possible. A pox on them both, and on the cheesy politicians in Washington!
10090. Cellar Door - 4/6/2000 12:52:08 AM
10091. CalGal - 4/6/2000 1:02:12 AM
Neato, dude.
10092. robertjayb - 4/6/2000 1:05:46 AM
.
A vivid, sprightly, and informative review. I can't believe I read the whole thing.
Well done, Cellar Door.
10093. Cellar Door - 4/6/2000 1:12:28 AM
Merci! I'm so glad they included the phot. That's the REAL David Geffen: Cher to one side of him as he nuzzles Steve Antin's ear. Steve's quite a pistol. If he plays his cards right he could be the male Louise Brooks.
10094. JJBiener - 4/6/2000 10:55:04 AM
Cellar - Good job. I love the title.
10095. Cellar Door - 4/6/2000 12:15:14 PM
Merci!
10096. Ronski - 4/6/2000 3:07:06 PM
Lesbian Visitation Rights March On (temp. link)
10097. Ronski - 4/6/2000 3:10:21 PM
10098. Diogenes - 4/6/2000 4:57:16 PM
It must be terribly comforting for that boy to have hundreds of screaming partisans and dozens of camera crews in front of his house at all times. Kinda makes me proud.
10099. Greystoke - 4/6/2000 6:15:46 PM
10100. Greystoke - 4/6/2000 6:36:54 PM
16 year sentence for candy bar thief was no April Fool's joke.
Prosecutor explains harsh sentence: perp had a previous conviction for stealing a bag of Oreos.
10101. robertjayb - 4/7/2000 1:53:27 PM
.
Boy Takes Four Pistols to School
SANTA FE, Texas (AP) -- An eighth-grade boy was arrested after a teacher received a tip that he had hidden four handguns in a gym bag he brought into his junior high school classroom. Three of the guns were loaded.
....
This is the community where the prayer at football games case now before the supreme court originated. Maybe they should pray for metal detectors.
10102. JudithAtHome - 4/7/2000 4:49:12 PM
They probably already pray to Charlton Heston...
10103. sakonige - 4/7/2000 10:43:36 PM
Greystoke
Message # 10099
Here is a nice illustration for your article about Yakamas banning alcohol.
10104. Greystoke - 4/8/2000 11:38:22 AM
Police are going to ask every man in an Australian town to submit to a DNA test in order to solve a rape.
Is this the way crimes will be investigated in the future?
10105. Greystoke - 4/8/2000 11:41:46 AM
As I understand it, the 91 yesr old rape victim was dressed very provocatively.
10106. joezan - 4/8/2000 11:45:04 AM
Grey:
They already do that in England. I remember (vaguely) a case which was solved a couple of years ago (rape-murder), where the police did the same thing. One guy acted very suspiciously - don't remember the exact details - but he did have someone else, or asked someone else, to submit a sample in his name.
He was, of course, nailed good.
10107. Greystoke - 4/8/2000 11:48:28 AM
Moslem women receive settlement after being arrested in Virginia for wearing veils in public.
Maybe the officer mistook them for Klansmen.
10108. Greystoke - 4/8/2000 11:50:28 AM
joe
What is your opinion of mass DNA screenings?
10109. Absensia - 4/8/2000 11:50:33 AM
Grey,
It's a pleasure to read your comments to the "news." I enjoy them very much!
10110. Absensia - 4/8/2000 11:51:07 AM
Though sometimes they are sad, because they are so true.
10111. Greystoke - 4/8/2000 11:56:24 AM
Absensia
Thanks for the kind words.
10112. joezan - 4/8/2000 12:05:23 PM
What is your opinion of mass DNA screenings?
Well, normally I'd say no - definitely not. But in some towns, Mass is the only time you'd be able to get all the people together at one time.
I would, though, wait till communion is over.
10113. Greystoke - 4/8/2000 12:12:25 PM
Utah's Negro Bill Canyon will keep its name.
10114. Greystoke - 4/8/2000 12:16:50 PM
joe
I throw 'em up there and you hit 'em out of the park. You're the Joe Dimaggio of Current Events.
10115. OhioSTOPAS - 4/8/2000 1:15:04 PM
Who? Joe Dimaggio? Is he related to Dom?
10116. Greystoke - 4/8/2000 1:18:56 PM
Dom DeLouise? No, I don't think so. Though the physical resemblance is striking.
10117. EricCartman - 4/8/2000 11:44:06 PM
More Idiocy From Tobacco Lawsuit Juries
10118. Greystoke - 4/9/2000 11:48:36 AM
Utah teen charged with kidnapping and rape.
An excerpt:
"She wasn't [being held] against her will," Faulkner said. "But again, she is not old enough to make those types of decisions."
10119. Greystoke - 4/9/2000 11:58:17 AM
Cartman
Tens of billions of dollars in punitive damages on behalf of 500,000 Florida citizens who got sick because of cigarettes? Absurd. How much do you suppose will go to the lawyers and how much to the "victims"?
10120. Greystoke - 4/9/2000 12:05:59 PM
I find these underage sex cases interesting. If it was my daughter, I'd want the cops to throw the book at the boy. On the other hand, if it was my son, I'd be focusing on the fact that the girl consented.
If it was my son and my daughter, then I'd be mighty perplexed.
10121. CalGal - 4/9/2000 12:36:04 PM
That's one of those marginal cases. 17-13? When does he turn 18 and she turn 14?
But felony rape? Shouldn't it be statutory rape?
10122. joezan - 4/9/2000 3:08:35 PM
My court is dealing with a case right now involving an adult male (17) who is accused of date-raping 4 under-aged girls 14 - 16. The judge threw the case out of adult court - he found that there was not enough evidence of coersion. None of the girls put up a fight, none had been drugged or given alcohol by the defendant, although all claim to have said "no" a number of times.
How'd we end up with the case in Family court? Well, the guy was 16 when the incidents occurred - the prosecutor had been pressing for a waiver to the adult system, and she now gets to try him as a juvenile.
The kid could still be in for a world of hurt - he could be locked up in a state juvenile facility till he's 21. But it seems to me he just got caught up in a snowball of adolescent vindictiveness and head games.
All the more reason kids need to be actively, strongly discouraged from having sex - and not told that it's their "choice".
10123. CalGal - 4/9/2000 3:27:50 PM
I don't see how you reach that conclusion. I've always thought "date rape" was an idiotic concept. It's either rape or it's not. If the kid raped them, then he got lucky. If the girls are just being shitty and vindictive, then it's further indication that girls really have to be held to the consequences of their actions.
10124. EricCartman - 4/9/2000 3:31:24 PM
Greystoke Message # 10119:
Yeah, the whole thing is just a big cash cow for the trial lawyers. I'd like to know just what the hell these moron juries are thinking, though. Stupid, as well as dangerous, in all seriousness.
If juries are just going to stand by and allow what is basically the judicial version of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?, then we might just as well hang it up and walk away.
OTOH, since I currently have two close relatives slowly dying after lifetimes of using tobacco and alcohol, perhaps I should just say "fuck principle", and hop that gravy train.
Message # 10120:
If it was my son and my daughter, then I'd be mighty perplexed.
Or an Alabaman.
10125. joezan - 4/9/2000 3:54:22 PM
Cal:
How do you hold them accountable? They didn't do anything wrong except get into a car with this kid, who, it turns out, is apparently the John Holmes of the school. The fact that they didn't do anything right can never even be considered.
10126. joezan - 4/9/2000 3:55:48 PM
[on edit]...The fact that they didn't do anything right can never be held against them, legally.
10127. Greystoke - 4/9/2000 5:47:03 PM
Pennsylvania state cops routinely conduct random searches of bus riders.
10128. CalGal - 4/9/2000 9:29:55 PM
Joe,
"Accountable" and "wrong" are two different things. They can be held accountable in the sense that they got in the car, they apparently said yes, and there's really nothing more to be said.
If they said "No", fought, and ran out of the car screaming at the time, fine. It'd be rape. None of this "date rape" shit.
10129. joezan - 4/9/2000 10:43:10 PM
Cal:
Well - yea. If it's that simple. It's not, though. And I suspect that now, there are many more kids getting caught up in the same kind of thing.
And it's not as if it was ever right. Not that long ago, no one would ever have known anything at all had happened (unless the boy bragged) because no girl would subject herself to the shame such an accusation would bring on her.
Now, the tables are turned. But things are no better than they ever were.
But what do you think of this?:
A friend was telling me recently about a situation with his 19 y.o. son. The kid has always been extremely shy, and to top it off he's had some terrible, scarring acne. Consequently, he's never had a girlfriend, till now. Unfortunately, the girl is 15.
The son is well aware of the legal implications, and has his dad convinced that they have no intentions of having sex. The guy told me that he believes his son, and in any case the girl's mom approves of the relationship. My reply was, Bullshit - if you believed him you wouldn't be telling me about it. The girl is feeling real special right now, because she's got this 19 y.o. college kid with a nice car and a good job. But what happens when the relationship goes south? What if he pisses her off really bad. What better revenge than to scream rape?
Now I know that this is where your opinion on date rape comes in. But the fact is that there are many, many cases of actual rapes committed by teenaged boyfriends, and a rape accusation made against a boyfriend is treated just as seriously as if it were against a stranger. Whether or not she actually fought or said no really doesn't matter. All that matters is what she says on the stand, and who the judge or jury believes.
10130. joezan - 4/9/2000 10:44:42 PM
[...cont'd]
Coincidentally, the trial of the unlucky HS kid was just getting underway when my friend approached me with his story, and it made the perfect example for my opinion. Because that is almost exactly what happened to him. For some reason, this kid fell out of favor with his regular clique (all the girls are former friends, and the girl who made the first accusation was his ex-gf), and that's all she wrote. He's most likely toast, one way or another.
Thus, my statement that this is one more reason kids need to be discouraged from having sex.
BTW (and I know this will make your day), your views on date rape align nicely with those of the Old Testament - read Deuteronomy 22: 22-27.
10131. bubbaette - 4/11/2000 9:06:19 AM
8 Students in Danville suspended
Danville, Virginia -- Eight middle-school students were suspended for a week for using Kool-Aid in a way that imitated the use of illegal drugs, school officials said.
"Some of the kids, at least five or six of them, were actually sniffing" the Kool-Aid, Said Superintendent Andy Overstreet.
The students, seventh- and eight-graders at O.T. Bonner Middle School, chould have been suspended for a full year for using a look-alike drug, Overstreet said. Instead, they received a lesser punishment under a statute that forbids the possession of contraband on school grounds.
Contraband can apply to anything being used "in a manner that's disruptive to the educational process," Overstreet said.
10132. theDiva - 4/11/2000 9:09:32 AM
Remember the good old days when kids would just use Kool-Aid to color their hair?
10133. bubbaette - 4/11/2000 9:15:35 AM
I think the school's reaction is a bit hysterical. I would think that having kool-aid in one's sinuses would be punishment enough.
10134. theDiva - 4/11/2000 9:18:39 AM
For real.
10135. theDiva - 4/11/2000 9:20:04 AM
"10112. joezan - 4/8/00 12:05:23 PM
What is your opinion of mass DNA screenings?
Well, normally I'd say no - definitely not. But in some towns, Mass is the only time you'd be able to get all the people together at one time.
I would, though, wait till communion is over."
What, in your parish they stay that long?
(Catholic joke!)
10136. Wombat - 4/11/2000 11:03:27 AM
God thing the kids didn't crush some Fizzies and snort that. Whatta rush! When I was in middle school, I used to put Good 'n' Plentys into a prescription drug container and share them with my friends on the way home.
10137. bubbaette - 4/11/2000 11:06:54 AM
Or Pop Rocks!! great gracious, what is this world coming to!?
It seems to me that these sorts of stunts by kids can be expected -- as a joke or a test of limits. To react the way the school did is just stupid.
10138. JudithAtHome - 4/11/2000 11:11:28 AM
Hope no one takes candy cigarettes to school; wonder if they'd be whipped for sucking on a white pencil like a ciggie? The eraser could be the lit ash end....
10139. bubbaette - 4/11/2000 11:13:29 AM
Or pretending to give a shot while playing "doctor" in nursery school?
10140. JudithAtHome - 4/11/2000 11:15:21 AM
Yes, must nip those pre-K junkies in the bud...
10141. bubbaette - 4/11/2000 11:18:27 AM
Truth -- my grandmother disapproved of children drinking soft drinks out of the bottle because it encouraged them to become alcoholics later in life. I guess infants should be expelled from day care if they insist on drinking from bottles.
10142. Wombat - 4/11/2000 11:19:30 AM
Only if they spitback.
10143. Ronski - 4/11/2000 11:23:00 AM
My Cesky grandmother used to be appalled seeing us drink orange soda. She contended that there had to be something wrong with something of that color, which as you all know is not normally found in nature. This was in the 50s, long before many artificial colors were banned from the marketplace.
10144. JudithAtHome - 4/11/2000 11:25:55 AM
She must've lost it when Tang came along...
10145. Wombat - 4/11/2000 11:31:41 AM
Snort Tang, not Koolaid.
10146. bubbaette - 4/11/2000 11:41:33 AM
The official breakfast snort of astronauts.
10147. Ronski - 4/11/2000 4:33:12 PM
Silicon Gorilla
(temp. link)
10148. Ronski - 4/11/2000 4:48:10 PM
There's Always Austria
(temp. link)
10149. Greystoke - 4/11/2000 4:57:27 PM
Clinton is expected to sign a bill that would make it slightly harder for the federal government to seize assets connected to crime.
An excerpt:
The legislation would shift the burden of proof in asset forfeiture cases from the property owner, where it now lies, to the government.
10150. Wombat - 4/11/2000 4:59:36 PM
Ronski:
Sad how a brilliant researcher can so comprehensively lose his marbles.
10151. Greystoke - 4/11/2000 5:26:03 PM
More consensual sex between an adult and a teenager.
This time its a 46 year old high school librarian and a sixteen year old student doing the naked pretzel in a Mormon Church parking lot.
10152. Wombat - 4/11/2000 5:29:34 PM
If the van's a rockin', don't come a knockin'.
10153. Absensia - 4/11/2000 5:35:25 PM
Hey, she was in there alone. She doesn't have any idea how that naked guy, hiding behind the seats, go in there. Aliens, probably.
10154. OhioSTOPAS - 4/11/2000 5:41:07 PM
What a pervert! He should behave like an upstanding Utah man and marry the girl . . or two . . or five . . or ten . . .
10155. Greystoke - 4/11/2000 5:52:41 PM
Arkansas stores are selling convict style clothing.
I'm guessing that we will soon be reading the sequel to this story -- Rookie sheriff's deputy mistakes teenagers for escaped convicts; shoots them dead.
10156. Greystoke - 4/11/2000 6:11:25 PM
Heathen teachers oppose God's will.
The Rutherford Institute supports the teachers. Strange bedfellows.
10157. JJBiener - 4/11/2000 6:51:25 PM
Grey - I guess Arkansas teens are anticipating the apparel their favorite son will be wearing a year from now.
10158. Greystoke - 4/11/2000 7:06:00 PM
JJ
Ouch. Republicans can turn any news article into a Clinton slam.
You get extra bonus points for creativity.
10159. JJBiener - 4/11/2000 8:00:41 PM
Grey - (grin)!
10160. Cellar Door - 4/11/2000 11:56:16 PM
So, J.J. do you think they'll get Clinton a cell next to Robert Downey Jr.?
10161. JJBiener - 4/12/2000 11:12:02 AM
Cellar - I doubt it. Downey would demand to be in with a better class of criminal.
10162. Cellar Door - 4/12/2000 11:43:24 AM
You mean like Charles Keating or Michael Milikin?
10163. JJBiener - 4/12/2000 11:51:10 AM
Cellar - No, like Manson or Lecter.
10164. Ronski - 4/12/2000 12:00:11 PM
I was glad yesterday to hear Peggy Noonan on the radio (despite the sickening saccharin quality of that delivery of hers) keeping the issue of Willey's missing cat alive. We want answers!
10165. greystoke - 4/12/2000 12:08:49 PM
Clinton did not touch Kathleen Willey's pussy.
10166. Thoughtful - 4/12/2000 12:15:47 PM
What is it with Microsoft getting involved with Ralph Reed?
I also wonder what kinds of payments candidate advisors get on a regular basis from firms, eh?
10167. Thoughtful - 4/12/2000 12:16:42 PM
I mean, it's not like they count as political contributions or anything --just probably far more effective than your standard soft money.
10168. Ronski - 4/12/2000 12:25:00 PM
I believe MS has decided to start lobbying. Reed knows lots of Republicans and southern Democrats, many potentially friendly to business interests.
10169. Thoughtful - 4/12/2000 12:37:14 PM
Actually according to this a.m.'s NY Times, Reed is apologizing and promising not to do it again. See here.
10170. janjon - 4/12/2000 3:30:57 PM
Peggy Noonan's a has been. Its been a long time since Reagan, baby. (well, not long enough from some perspectives).
10171. Ronski - 4/12/2000 3:45:37 PM
janjon,
I think Noonan (whom I also dislike for being a bit of a homophobe when it was fashionable in Washington to do so) will pretty much retire from the field once her book on Hillary is remaindered, and Hillary and Bill are private citizens fighting subpoenas.
10172. uzmakk - 4/12/2000 3:52:53 PM
Ronski:
Did I hear you say that you wanted to speak to a homophobe?
10173. Ronski - 4/12/2000 4:03:37 PM
Uzmakk,
No, I don't think so, but I'd be happy to help such a person recover from their ignorance and moral error, if the person is ready for it.
10174. uzmakk - 4/12/2000 4:05:06 PM
Oh, I suppose I'm ready. Go ahead.
10175. Ronski - 4/12/2000 4:13:09 PM
Uzmakk,
Actually, could it wait til tomorrow?
Unless, of course, there is some kind of crisis.
10176. uzmakk - 4/12/2000 4:17:01 PM
Tomorrow will be fine, Ronski. I think I'll be all right until then. I should really get back to work anyway.
10177. Ronski - 4/12/2000 4:22:19 PM
Good. In the meantime, think about what it is that makes gay people different from straight people, beyond the one obvious characteristic.
Which is not, incidentally, being able to mouth all the dialogue in All About Eve.
10178. Cellar Door - 4/12/2000 4:33:09 PM
Actually that's central, Ronski.
10179. Cellar Door - 4/12/2000 4:36:25 PM
You also might trying reading my review of the laurents book which is still linked in "Books," Uz.
10180. Greystoke - 4/12/2000 4:58:01 PM
10181. Ronski - 4/12/2000 5:01:21 PM
I know which side I'm rooting for.
10182. Ronski - 4/12/2000 5:16:58 PM
Cellar,
BTW, I liked your review.
Larry, who lived down the block from me in the Village, worked on that walk. He also ended up with one of the sweetest guys imaginable.
Sorry he's gone.
10183. Cellar Door - 4/12/2000 5:26:20 PM
Merci, ronski. Sorry about your friend Larry.
I've been asked to appear on a panel discussion held by the National Gay and Lesbian Journalists Association, here in Los Angeles on May 1. The subject will be how gay journalists cover the news. So far, the other panelists include Greg Kilday of "Entertainment Weekly" and Tom King of the "Wall Street Journal," who wrote the David Geffen bio,"The Operator." I'll keep y'all posted as things develop.
10184. RosettaStone - 4/12/2000 3:48:21 PM
30 DRUNK AMERICAN "PEACEKEEPERS" ARE IN A MACEDONIA JAIL AND NO ONE CARES
REALLY!
10184. RosettaStone - 4/12/2000 3:55:00 PM
Well, maybe we should call the NAziTO troops "troublemakers" and send in the Rev. Jesse Jackson to get them out.
10184. PelleNilsson - 4/12/2000 4:27:01 PM
I would like everybody to take note of "NAziTO troops". RS uses that consistently in his sordid little thread.
NATO troops are Nazis.
Perhaps you have relatives or friends who serve in the US Armed Forces. Don't forget to tell them they are Nazis. Just like the Danes and the Swedes and every nationality that serves in Kosovo.
What a disgusting little mind he has.
10186. robertjayb - 4/12/2000 6:06:53 PM
.
Insanity Rules!
CNN is airing live shots of Janet Reno's aircraft landing in Miami where she is to meet the kidnappers of Elian Gonzales. She is wearing
yellow.
Good Grief!
10187. CalGal - 4/12/2000 6:06:54 PM
Has anyone been reading the Times special on mass murderers? Turns out that they are all nuts (big surprise) and that whatever reason they give at the time they do the actual killing has nothing to do with anything--they're just nuts. It also turns out that the single biggest obstacle to preventing them from getting the guns they use to do the crime is not gun control laws, but rather the fact that the mental health lobbies object to the mentally ill being so labeled. Another big surprise, I know.
10188. Cellar Door - 4/12/2000 6:27:15 PM
That means that Hinckly can apply for a position as Jodie Foster's personal assistant tomorrow.
10189. CalGal - 4/12/2000 6:29:40 PM
Man, that's spooky that they're thinking of letting him out. I really wonder about the folks who work in mental hospitals. Do they have no concept of what they are saying? "No, no, really, he's much better now."
10190. RosettaStone - 4/12/2000 6:33:37 PM
It must be the helmets. And don't forget the Germans, fascist Italians and the other "neutral" power in WWII, Pelle.
You wouldn't even protect your own ambassadors after the war when comrade Stalin said "nyet."
10191. AceofSpades - 4/12/2000 6:33:43 PM
I wonder how seriously they're "thinking" about it. Seems to me that these high-profile loons are never released. They have to pretend there's the possibility of release (a hospital implies some possibility of successful treatment), but I really wonder whether they're serious about it.
10192. AceofSpades - 4/12/2000 6:41:42 PM
I think maybe the mental health professions have to become more comfortable with the notion of "Terminal Lunacy." I mean, medical doctors will not bullshit around or jerk themselves off about the possibility of treating a terminally ill patient. They will simply deliver the bad news.
And I don't know of any seriously-insane people who have ever been cured of their lunacy. If someone knows of such cases, please inform me.
But to me, when a guy shoots a President based on the belief that this will impress Jodie Foster (a notion he got from a *movie*, by the way), I say you diagnose him "Terminally Insane." Insane until death, no possibility of cure. And close the book, and close the cell, forever.
10193. CalGal - 4/12/2000 6:50:05 PM
Yeah, there are a few things that just pretty much do it. You hear voices? You're nuts. You have to show up every day to take your meds, and if you don't want to do that, then we have to lock you up. Sorry, and all. But that's how it goes.
You get caught standing on a street corner, shouting loudly at people who aren't there? You're nuts. Meds don't help? Well, we have this nice facility for you.
Shouldn't be too difficult.
Of course, we didn't help matters much by throwing all the crazies out on the street some twenty years ago.
I don't know if you read the Times article, but it turns out that you can only be flagged for being mentally ill and ineligible for guns if your time in a mental health institution was involuntary. Consquently, prosecutors of people who go temporarily wacko hold out voluntary confinement as a bargaining chip. This way, the wacko who gets picked up by the system for violently accosting a stranger on the street can escape notice and buy the weapons of his choice later, when he's ready for prime time.
10194. joezan - 4/12/2000 11:15:16 PM
Did I ever mention that my first job in my field (sort of) was at a huge mental hospital (20,000 patients at it's height) on Long Island? And, having worked on almost every type of unit there - chronic and acute, young, old, and in between, I say in all assuredness that the medications that have been developed since the early 70's made de-institutionalization the only choice. The nightmare scenarios propagated before and during the process of de-inst. simply never came to be.
In an ideal world, the out-patients -those who were released from institutions as well as the new generation who never were institutionalized - would always take their meds. Most of them don't always, but the vast majority do take them most of the time. But more significant is the fact that the rates of violent crime committed by those diagnosed with "traditional" mental illnesses - bi-polar disorder, paranoia, schizophrenia, etc. - and not the behavior disorders prevalent in criminals (for which people never were locked up in the loony bin anyway), is no higher than that of the rest of society.
There are 100's of 1000's of people right now holding down jobs at every level in every field, raising families, doing all kinds of normal things, who just a generation ago would have been locked up for life in an institution. I once had a boss who would occasionally schiz out, become unbearably impatient, paranoid and surly -even talk to herself - around her period. But we were all aware of her problem, and would alert her when she needed to "take a few days off". No problem. This woman went on to become head trainer for a pro sports team, and her studies and articles have been published in many professional journals.
10195. jonesatlaw - 4/12/2000 11:22:54 PM
Joezan- I agree. There are cases of people who do things which would otherwise be criminal during acute mental illness who can be cured or treated for their mental illness such that they would not pose a serious threat of repeating the behavior. They are the exception rather than the rule. I would emphasize what Joezan mentioned before, the mental illnesses associated with serial killing and multiple homicides are not the sort that we associate with mental health treatment. Serial killers are far more likely to be personality disordered, and are poor candidates for treatment. Pedophiles are also likely to act criminally and are equally poor candidates for treatment.
10196. CalGal - 4/12/2000 11:41:39 PM
The Times did a survey of every single "rampage" homicide (murders are multiple and public) they could find--and overwhelmingly, the people were whack jobs (generally schizophrenics).
I agree that serial killers are a whole different ballgame; I thought "mass murderers" was specific enough in my original post, but it might not have been clear.
The entire point of the series is that these people are treatable--but that in many cases they are either undiagnosed or have gone off medication. And yes, obviously, not all schizophrenics are like this.
10197. joezan - 4/12/2000 11:49:59 PM
[...continued]
The price we pay for de-institutionalization is an increase in homelessness, which, imo, could be relieved to a great extent with better outpatient and monitoring services.
Of course, there will always be some who are just too far gone, or who just refuse to take their meds. And if these folks present a threat to themselves or others, they need to be locked up. But believe me - you do not want to go back to institutionalizing every nut standing around yelling at people.
That said, my favorite nut-on-the-street anecdote, illustrative of nothing save the idiocy of the ACLU, is the Billy Boggs story from mid-80's NY.
Billy Boggs was a homeless woman who was extremely territorial and protective of her little square of Manhattan sidewalk, and would yell at and threaten anyone who dared walk by. She took her name from a news anchor, Bill Boggs, at a local NY TV station, WNEW.
Around 1985, after a couple of homeless people froze to death during a cold snap, Mayor Koch (bless his heart) ordered police and EMS workers to scoop up all the homeless people once the temp dropped below freezing, and bring them to homeless shelters.
Well, Billy Boggs, who had been off her meds for about a month at that point, refused to go. The ACLU, of course, rushed in to defend Ms. Boggs' right to freeze to death. They made her a celebrity and, lucky for them, she reciprocated by taking her meds and behaving herself while in the limelight. She was actually very well-spoken and intelligent, and subsequently received lots of support, and a brand new apartment. She even got a job.
10198. jonesatlaw - 4/12/2000 11:50:25 PM
Cal- I agree with you that rampage killers and serial killers tend to be entirely different populations. I don't have any hard numbers at hand, but I generally understand that the subpopulation of schizophrenics who kill are usually paranoid schizophrenics, and are a fairly small portion of that population. I believe that they are also more prone to be non-compliant with regard to their medicine.
10199. joezan - 4/12/2000 11:51:45 PM
[...continued]
The ACLU exploited Boggs for all she was worth, and it was soon apparent that their real agenda, with Boggs as their poster child, was to get the City of NY to provide permanent housing for all its homeless. See what happens when you clean these people up, get them back on their meds and give 'em a medicine cabinet to keep them in? Why, they become instant model citizens!
Koch took a lot of flack over this. But by summer he was vindicated, when Boggs was filmed at her old cardboard box house on her old square of sidewalk, taking a crap in the gutter while yelling at everyone who walked by. The rent for her new apartment had been paid for the next few months, and there was a full prescription, months old, in her medicine cabinet.
10200. CalGal - 4/12/2000 11:53:50 PM
But believe me - you do not want to go back to institutionalizing every nut standing around yelling at people.
No, but I tell you, I wouldn't have trouble with making them check in every day to take their meds--and institutionalize them if they don't.
10201. jonesatlaw - 4/12/2000 11:57:43 PM
Assisted living is not just for old folk. If it were available and affordable, we could have a lot fewer people living on the street. Some people are not going to successful at leaving transitional housing. If we would just leave some patients in what we normally think of as "transitional housing" we and they would be better off.
10202. joezan - 4/13/2000 12:04:41 AM
Cal:
As I said, most people on drugs for mental illness take "drug vacations" now and then - some obviously more than others. I agree with you to an extent - they should be locked up. But only when/if they become a threat to themselves or others.
This is not to say that we wait for something bad to happen before doing something. But given the fact that your average paranoid schizophrenic is no more likely than you or I to hurt anyone, I don't see that there are any grounds, moral or legal, to lock them up simply for not taking their meds.
10203. Max Macks - 4/13/2000 12:19:44 AM
What about those Batista Cubans abusing that kid in
Florida... I wish they could be locked up somewhere or better yet
kicked out of the USA.
They are terrible , but of course I suppose the Press/media show
them and not those that disagree with how they have messed up that kid.
10204. CalGal - 4/13/2000 12:20:36 AM
Joe--if you note, I've said that they should be required to come in daily to take their drugs. If they refuse to do that, they can be institutionalized.
And frankly, I'm not really worried about them becoming a threat to themselves. Manic-depressives, for example, are more harmful to themselves than anyone else when they go off their meds. But schizophrenics (particularly the paranoid kind) can be extremely harmful to others.
Besides, a huge percentage of folks on the street are wackjobs off their meds. Who cares whether or not they are harmful to themselves? I see no reason why the rest of the community should have to tolerate the problems that come along with a host of homeless unmedicated folk.
Provided the community is willing to foot the bill, of course.
10205. joezan - 4/13/2000 12:34:32 AM
Well, there's the rub.
But let's do eliminate the "hurt themselves" requirement. They (the mentally ill) are still no more likely to hurt others than anyone else.
You know what's an even better guage of potential for violence? Stress. You'd be much more successful in decreasing random violence if you, even independently, applied a stress inventory to everyone, and then took measures - however extreme - with those who fail.
Hell - you wouldn't even need to apply it to everyone. Just those who live in poor neighborhoods, for example. You could check off six or seven stressors from the get-go.
I'm not being facetious here - statistically, as a demographic and regardless of any underlying psychological causes, people who live in low-income areas are much more prone to hurt others than are the mentally ill.
Or would that be insensitive?
10206. CalGal - 4/13/2000 12:47:55 AM
Joe,
Oh, please. I'm not arguing that the number of rampage murderers is statistically significant. Besides, I'm not suggesting institutionalizing people who refuse to take their meds only because of violence. That's just one of many by-products that can be avoided by ensuring that people who are mentally ill take the medication that will keep them stabilized.
And it is this absurd concern about stigma and unfairness that stops us from taking reasonable measures to ensure that these people aren't allowed to let their illness take over their lives.
10207. joezan - 4/13/2000 1:11:43 AM
The last thing I'd want to sound like is a civil libertarian. But how can you argue for forcing people to take their meds when there is no greater chance that they'll hurt anyone.
I could more easily accept your rationale if you would agree that, since people who live in low-income areas are many times more likely to hurt someone, they should be subjected to greater scrutiny and forced to attend stress reduction classes, and check in with their therapist once a week, and locked up when they don't.
What do you say?
10208. CalGal - 4/13/2000 1:21:37 AM
But how can you argue for forcing people to take their meds when there is no greater chance that they'll hurt anyone.
Because they aren't capable for caring for themselves when they don't take their meds. Because if they are at the point of being noticed by the state (by babbling on the street, accosting people, living on the street due to their refusal to take meds and the resulting paranoia) then their health problems are a burden to the community and there is no real reason why the community should tolerate it.
I don't see the purpose of analogizing it to stress. No comparison at all. People who are stressed out aren't degrading the quality of the community as a whole (to a greater degree to anyone else), they aren't a danger to the community as a whole, and they are able to understand not only right from wrong, but reality as most of us know it. So drop the straw man until you can find one that makes sense.
Want one? I'll give you one, free. Addiction. There you go.
10209. jonesatlaw - 4/13/2000 1:33:22 AM
Cal- are you advocating a kind of "broken window" approach to the mentally ill on the street? IOW the effect on the community is greater than the individual incident because of the ripple effect on those who may be disturbed by being accosted or inconvienced by someone off their meds?
10210. joezan - 4/13/2000 1:34:49 AM
We're talking outcomes, chief. Not individuals. Ignore the nuts -the corner-babblers, the conspiracy-theorists - and they're still no more likely to hurt anyone.
But let those damn poor people stew in their misery, unchecked and untreated - and watch out!
10211. joezan - 4/13/2000 1:38:16 AM
IOW the effect on the community is greater than the individual incident because of the ripple effect on those who may be disturbed by being accosted or inconvienced by someone off their meds?
Which, of course, is much more annoying and has much longer-lasting side-effects than getting shot for your $5, or conked over the head with a tire iron for wearing the wrong color shirt.
10212. joezan - 4/13/2000 1:44:17 AM
CalGal:
Message # 10204 -Besides, a huge percentage of folks on the street are wackjobs off their meds. Who cares whether or not they are harmful to themselves?
Message # 10208 -Because they aren't capable for caring for themselves when they don't take their meds.
10213. jonesatlaw - 4/13/2000 1:44:27 AM
Joezan, I think that many of the people who end up on the streets are not the willful non compliant. Some of them are so short on coping skills that little problems that the average citizen would handly without trouble push them into bad situations where they don't compy with their meds. They simply fuck up somewhere in the bureaucratic process and go without meds for a short while and rapidly spiral downward.
10214. jonesatlaw - 4/13/2000 1:46:38 AM
compy=comply
10215. CalGal - 4/13/2000 1:47:49 AM
That, too, is just a by-product. Although not a bad one.
If you have a condition that can cause you to be a serious inconvenience or even danger to the community (as well as to yourself) and that condition also causes you to reject the medication that will keep you stabilized, it is in everyone's best interest that you be required to take the medication. If you do so yourself and don't attract societal notice, then no problem. If you can't do so yourself, then society can make sure you take it.
All the problems we discuss (rampage murders, babbling and attacking strangers, freezing on the streets) are downstream of their refusal to take meds. So why not go to the source of the problem? I'm really not sure why it's considered a civil rights violation to do so, but I'm sure there is an argument to be made.
There is, of course, another group of folk who can't be medicated--but they're a different problem.
10216. CalGal - 4/13/2000 1:48:51 AM
We're talking outcomes, chief.
No, you might be. I'm not. I'm talking problems, ma'am. (g)
10217. CalGal - 4/13/2000 1:51:04 AM
10215 is in response to 10209.
10218. CalGal - 4/13/2000 1:52:00 AM
Joe--I don't understand 10212.
10219. jonesatlaw - 4/13/2000 1:53:06 AM
There is something rather different about the mentally ill. If I refuse to have my cancer treated, and rely on the healing hands of Rev. Bob Tilden, the government is pretty much powerless to intervene. If I rely on Rev. Bob to treat my schizophrenia, the state steps in, relying on some form of substituted judgment.
Another aspect of the problem is that of class. Howard Hughes was pretty far out there towards the end, but he did his shtick in some Vegas hotel, out of the public eye. If you can't afford your legion of faithful Mormon retainers, off you go...
10220. CalGal - 4/13/2000 1:57:03 AM
If you refuse to treat your cancer, that's just a form of suicide. Society can interfere to a certain extent, in the same way they can if someone tries to commit suicide some other way. Whether or not they should or not being a different issue.
And as long as you are rich enough or dedicated enough that your mental illness doesn't come to societal notice as a problem, then that's fine. I don't think a diagnosis of schizophrenia should automatically make you eligible for state monitoring. But if you can't or won't be responsible for it, I believe that the state ought to be allowed to do it for you.
As I mentioned in a post to Joe, I think that addicts are an analogous population. Not quite the same, but close enough. The problem there is that we can't medicate addicts back to normal behavior.
10221. joezan - 4/13/2000 1:57:05 AM
jones:
Absolutely true. But the vast majority do not ever fit that scenario. Even a past history of violence in a paranoid schizophrenic is no more indicative of future violence than it is for you or I.
On the other hand, using a stress inventory, or any number of "at risk" inventories, we can nail down to a fairly reasonable certainty who, in a low-income area, is likely to become a criminal.
My argument is not, as CalGal suggests, borne of any concern over stigmatization. Rather, it is that CalGal would sooner compromise the freedoms of a segment of society, based solely on her personal prejudices, and contrary to the facts.
10222. CalGal - 4/13/2000 1:59:49 AM
Rather, it is that CalGal would sooner compromise the freedoms of a segment of society, based solely on her personal prejudices, and contrary to the facts.
Not at all. The segment of society is completely free provided that they don't come to societal notice in a way that demonstrates they aren't taking their meds.
10223. CalGal - 4/13/2000 2:00:46 AM
And even then, I'm only "compromising" their freedom to the extent that they would have to take their meds every day. It's only if they refused to do this that their freedoms would be compromised.
10224. jonesatlaw - 4/13/2000 2:04:17 AM
Joe-I recognize the difficulty in predicting future dangerousness in the mentally ill. I do think that there are some things which would reasonably cause concern, but there is damn little evidence that clinicians as a whole are much better than chance at predicting dangerousness, especially in the scenario you describe. I don't think that it is impossible to predict future dangerousness with accuracy significantly better than chance for the mentally ill as a whole if we include personality disorders etc.
10225. OhioSTOPAS - 4/13/2000 6:20:16 AM
Regarding the story linked by Greystoke in 10226. OhioSTOPAS - 4/13/2000 6:21:15 AM Greystoke's post is at Message # 10180. (If at first I screw up, try, try again.) 10227. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 7:57:50 AM Ronski, Cellar: 10228. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 8:02:12 AM btw Cellar, I did read your review. 10229. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 8:03:17 AM I didn't have time to review All About Eve, however. 10230. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 9:37:50 AM Gentlemen! The Cultural Deprogramming, Please! 10231. Ronski - 4/13/2000 10:52:40 AM uzmakk, 10232. PsychProf - 4/13/2000 11:15:24 AM VIDEOTAPE OF ELIAN IS NEW LOW FOR THE MIAMI RELATIVES 10233. Cellar Door - 4/13/2000 11:29:06 AM Mornin' all. Have the "Miami Family" killed Elian yet? Cause as we all know, death is preferable to life under the demon Castro. 10234. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 11:34:05 AM Ronski, you seem like such a reasonable fellow. Cellar, on the other hand, is not only part of the Hollywood scene, but part of the gay Hollywood scene. Now I have absolutely nothing to learn from 95% of the hollywood beat,heterosexual or homosexual. Honestly, what a culture. 10235. Cellar Door - 4/13/2000 11:35:34 AM Oh sure you do, Uz. 10236. Cellar Door - 4/13/2000 11:36:14 AM btw Cellar, I did read your review. 10237. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 12:08:35 PM Nonsense, Cellar, Hollywood is cutting edge. 10238. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 12:10:31 PM Ronski: 10239. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 12:14:12 PM 10236 Cellar: 10240. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 12:15:35 PM btw, cellar, everywhere else ain't so hot either. 10241. Ronski - 4/13/2000 12:23:55 PM 10242. bubbaette - 4/13/2000 12:25:15 PM The CNN article said that Elian was one of three survivors. Anyone know what happened to the other two? 10243. Wombat - 4/13/2000 1:19:29 PM They are holding off on telling their story until they get paid for it. 10244. bubbaette - 4/13/2000 1:30:46 PM Oh. I thought they were well and living at Disney World. 10245. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 1:38:14 PM "I will add that I see a respect for liberty to be a natural consequence of reasonableness." 10246. Cellar Door - 4/13/2000 1:44:36 PM A frontal assault? Oh goodie! 10247. uzmakk - 4/13/2000 1:57:10 PM chuckle, chuckle. You're such a wit, cellar. Perhaps, tomorrow, Cellar. I am blowing off work tomorrow and should have some time to Mote. 10248. Cellar Door - 4/13/2000 2:04:28 PM Uz, I'm trembling with antici- 10249. Cellar Door - 4/13/2000 2:04:41 PM pation! 10250. LadyChaos - 4/13/2000 2:10:08 PM Greetings from Miami. 10251. Cellar Door - 4/13/2000 2:13:31 PM OK people, I have fucking had it! Now we've got GLORIA ESTEFAN on CNN as a spokesperson for "Elian's Miami family." What is this shit? Do we all need celebrities to speak for us? 10252. OhioSTOPAS - 4/13/2000 4:18:07 PM So you're for applying "the rule of Law"? 10253. CalGal - 4/13/2000 4:19:10 PM Lady, see the Cafe. I'm going to be in Miami in July. Aren't you there? 10254. CalGal - 4/13/2000 4:20:04 PM Duh. Just read your post. That'd be a yes, I'm thinking. 10255. EricCartman - 4/13/2000 4:28:59 PM M*A*S*H* star Larry Linville dies....Presidential hopefuls eulogize rhapsodically 10256. JJBiener - 4/13/2000 5:34:36 PM Eric - You did see the little "satire" label by the title, didn't you? 10257. Diogenes - 4/13/2000 9:12:46 PM Tonight's modest proposal: If they can't respect our laws, maybe we should send the lot of them back to Cuba. How long is this child abuse going to continue - until the little object of their admiration is hospitalized with a nervous breakdown? 10258. Absensia - 4/13/2000 9:21:08 PM Diogenes, 10259. Max Macks - 4/13/2000 10:17:41 PM I get so pissed off at those Baptistas in Little Havanna and their 10260. Ubiquitous - 4/13/2000 11:07:11 PM re :10259. Max Macks 10261. AceofSpades - 4/13/2000 11:18:34 PM 10262. EricCartman - 4/14/2000 1:56:57 AM Biener Message # 10256: 10263. EricCartman - 4/14/2000 2:03:39 AM South Postpones Rising Again For Another Year 10264. EricCartman - 4/14/2000 2:13:23 AM See, technically the above article is "satire". But look at the amount of unrepentant yahoos who still make the news from down there. There's a chunk of truth to it. 10265. EricCartman - 4/14/2000 2:20:36 AM From the sidebar of HoleCity's NewsHole: 10266. bubbaette - 4/14/2000 8:31:17 AM Damn. What am I gonna do with all these Dixie cups again for another year? 10267. Wombat - 4/14/2000 9:37:05 AM Ubiquitous: 10268. Cellar Door - 4/14/2000 10:13:34 AM O.J, the "Nanny" trial, "Die, Die My Diana" (featuring Tom Cruise and George Clooney), Monicamania, Impeachment-O-Rama, and now "No, Papi, No," starring Elian Gonzales as Haley Joel Osment. 10269. Wombat - 4/14/2000 11:02:35 AM Msg. 10267: 10270. theDiva - 4/14/2000 11:06:00 AM 10271. theDiva - 4/14/2000 11:06:30 AM hm. 10272. jonesatlaw - 4/14/2000 12:26:25 PM Elian will lead a march to the sea, where he will part the Carribean to Cuba. Cubans will flow out of the country, and then be pursued by Castro's army. Once all the Cubans have come to Florida, Elian will wave his power ranger sword and the sea will swallow the Cuban army. 10273. Max Macks - 4/14/2000 1:04:48 PM Great stuff here, nice to read this after another round of the 10274. Wombat - 4/14/2000 1:04:58 PM Then he would not be Elian, he would be Moises. 10275. bubbaette - 4/14/2000 1:13:09 PM Let my people go!!! 10276. robertjayb - 4/14/2000 1:40:12 PM . 10277. Wombat - 4/14/2000 2:37:55 PM David Plotz in Slate (yeah, I know, boo!) describes a grotesque invitation to Juan Miguel Gonzalez from Tom DeLay and the Republican Cuban-American congressional delegation to meet with them, under the protection of the Capitol Police. This is to give him the freedom of expression that he apparently has lacked before. I guess he could use his new-found freedom to suggest that they get the fuck out of his business and tell their lunatic pals in Miami to give him his kid back. 10278. Indiana Jones - 4/14/2000 3:52:10 PM Another miserable day at the market... 10279. Cellar Door - 4/14/2000 3:57:29 PM THE STOCK MARKET IS CRASHING! 10280. Indiana Jones - 4/14/2000 4:11:18 PM Cellar: Politics aside, I try not to use the same material over and over. You've used the Kate Smith line at least three times now. Moreover, it's a bit of a kneejerk to see everything through the prism of Clinton (though apparently his enablers do). 10281. robertjayb - 4/14/2000 5:58:03 PM . 10282. Cellar Door - 4/14/2000 6:40:16 PM Moreover, it's a bit of a kneejerk to see everything through the prism of Clinton (though apparently his enablers do). 10283. Cellar Door - 4/14/2000 6:41:11 PM You've used the Kate Smith line at least three times now. 10284. Cellar Door - 4/14/2000 6:42:31 PM "Clinton enabler," is -- I'm sure we all recall -- a term coined by everybody's favorite fag-hag, Arianna Huffington. 10285. Max Macks - 4/14/2000 6:48:24 PM Katherine Jones ? 10286. Indiana Jones - 4/14/2000 9:26:32 PM "YOU do!" 10287. Max Macks - 4/15/2000 12:17:27 AM Indiana J--never seen ya in TT. Where do you visit there? 10288. joezan - 4/15/2000 12:44:16 PM Comments? 10289. joezan - 4/15/2000 12:45:56 PM School officials told the couple that because of Derek's comments he should be separated from the other students and forced to enter the school's "Mentor" program, where he would be studied by an adult supervisor who would monitor Derek's thought processes. 10290. joezan - 4/15/2000 12:49:57 PM 10291. joezan - 4/15/2000 12:50:27 PM 10292. AceofSpades - 4/15/2000 12:56:53 PM 10293. AceofSpades - 4/15/2000 12:59:07 PM 10294. AceofSpades - 4/15/2000 12:59:44 PM 10295. Absensia - 4/15/2000 1:02:49 PM "The letter, which was written by the principal," 10296. Greystoke - 4/15/2000 1:03:49 PM joe 10297. Absensia - 4/15/2000 1:05:30 PM Grey, 10298. AceofSpades - 4/15/2000 1:07:01 PM 10299. AceofSpades - 4/15/2000 1:07:47 PM 10300. Absensia - 4/15/2000 1:08:33 PM What? McCarthy was a Soviet? OMG, where's Roy Cohn when you need him? 10301. Absensia - 4/15/2000 1:09:28 PM The Axis loved informants and since when have the Soviets = liberal? 10302. AceofSpades - 4/15/2000 1:15:41 PM 10303. Absensia - 4/15/2000 1:17:37 PM Well, at least that isn't a generalization! 10304. Absensia - 4/15/2000 1:19:01 PM Uh oh..the Goon Squad's at the door! BRB, I'm gonna put them to work..do those windows! weed that garden! 10305. Greystoke - 4/15/2000 1:37:42 PM Joe 10306. Indiana Jones - 4/15/2000 2:17:35 PM Max: I post at TT most frequently on the Cato Institute and Crash of 2000 threads. To oblige the TableTalk staff, I do so under a nom de plume. 10307. Max Macks - 4/15/2000 11:24:34 PM Indian...Cato Institute??!! 10308. joezan - 4/16/2000 12:31:47 AM 10309. joezan - 4/16/2000 1:17:34 AM 10310. Cellar Door - 4/16/2000 11:02:29 AM No wierder that separating Elian Gonzales from his father. Children are property. And political props. LIVE WITH IT! 10311. Diogenes - 4/16/2000 2:09:54 PM My son had the perfect solution to the Elian case. Forget the Supreme Court and go straight to the top - Judge Judy. Fast, simple, and the dad gets the boy back quicker than you can say buenas dias. The law is the law, sports fans. More after this word from our sponsor. 10312. EricCartman - 4/16/2000 6:32:49 PM Message # 10292: 10313. JJBiener - 4/17/2000 1:07:45 PM Diogenes - The law is the law, sports fans. 10314. JJBiener - 4/17/2000 1:13:30 PM Unfortunately there are people in positions of influence who are trying to turn this country into the Soviet Union. Here is an article showing how far people in universities are willing to go. 10315. jonesatlaw - 4/17/2000 2:10:25 PM JJB- there are also folk who would change the country into a theocracy- or an eat the poor plutocracy or tree hugging green eden. Pick your extreme view, there are profs, proselytizing for it. Conservative voices are far from stilled at UN-Omaha, or its sister campuses. The reason article is overblown. At the same time these sensitivity sessions are conducted there are Frats who are enthusiastically promoting the status quo ante. 10316. joezan - 4/17/2000 8:37:08 PM 10317. Greystoke - 4/17/2000 9:15:26 PM 10318. Greystoke - 4/17/2000 9:23:23 PM Woman gives birth on a sidewalk while her husband watches from a nearby jail cell. 10319. Greystoke - 4/17/2000 9:26:26 PM Makah tribe authorizes another whale hunt. 10320. Greystoke - 4/17/2000 9:32:49 PM Woman held in jail for seven months as a material witness. 10321. Greystoke - 4/18/2000 5:44:36 PM 10322. Greystoke - 4/19/2000 12:02:50 AM Providence grand jury recommends no criminal charges against cops for shooting fellow officer. 10323. greysTOKE - 4/19/2000 11:56:23 AM Wimpy New Zealanders are afraid of a seal. 10324. robertjayb - 4/19/2000 12:51:09 PM 10325. robertjayb - 4/19/2000 8:36:17 PM . 10326. JudithAtHome - 4/20/2000 11:34:02 AM robertjayb: 10327. robertjayb - 4/20/2000 3:30:19 PM . 10328. PsychProf - 4/20/2000 4:34:19 PM 10329. Cellar Door - 4/20/2000 6:49:52 PM "Mass Murder -- It's Not Just For Teenagers Anymore" 10330. Diogenes - 4/22/2000 10:01:22 AM The child has now been rescued from his well-meaning kidnappers. Good job! 10331. Ubiquitous - 4/22/2000 11:42:59 AM 10332. Ronski - 4/24/2000 12:29:15 PM 10333. robertjayb - 4/24/2000 4:06:12 PM . 10334. robertjayb - 4/25/2000 12:04:28 AM A do-it-yourself poll in The Miami Herald... 10335. joezan - 4/25/2000 7:16:50 AM Hey - I've just discovered I'm a Fast Eddie fan, RJB. 10336. PsychProf - 4/25/2000 11:29:24 AM 10337. JudithAtHome - 4/25/2000 12:57:08 PM Wonder what brand of funiture that dresser was...seems ready made for a killer TV commercial! 10338. janjon - 4/25/2000 1:01:30 PM "Mrs. Donovan said a statue of the Virgin Mary standing on the dresser ``helped create a miracle.''" 10339. OhioSTOPAS - 4/25/2000 1:02:31 PM The best part is how Mrs. Donovan slept through the car crashing through their bedroom roof. 10340. JudithAtHome - 4/25/2000 1:09:16 PM And cursing Viagra all the while... 10341. Wombat - 4/25/2000 1:26:11 PM There was as scene in the movie "Freebie and the Bean" where a car chase on an elevated expressway ended with one of the cars going off the road and into an apartment. 10342. Greystoke - 4/25/2000 4:49:55 PM Germans protest a proposed ban on certain dog breeds. 10343. robertjayb - 4/25/2000 4:55:02 PM . 10344. Greystoke - 4/25/2000 4:56:55 PM Louisville jury flips a coin to find a man guilty of murder. 10345. robertjayb - 4/25/2000 5:10:10 PM . 10346. Greystoke - 4/25/2000 5:16:47 PM robertjayb 10347. Greystoke - 4/25/2000 5:41:52 PM Court of Appeals finds Ohio's motto to be unconstitutional. 10348. Jimbo - 4/26/2000 12:20:14 AM I don't know all the rules of what goes where but this seems to me like a current event since I heard it on the radio today. And it was all about what happened yesterday in Washington, D.C., at the Zoo. I was listening to this show called the "Phil Henry Show" and he was talking to this lady named Mavis Leonard, a retired Negro school teacher. She was explaining why that shooting had occured. 10349. EricCartman - 4/26/2000 12:27:49 AM I'm assuming Mavis Leonard was forced into retirement, due to severe psychological problems. 10350. Jimbo - 4/26/2000 12:29:58 AM Now don't go getting all pissed off at me, if you are still up that is, because I am just giving up the stright skinny on what this old Negro lady was laying out there. It seems that all this vine swinging and spear chucking is caused by a racial memory from when these, as she called them, "new negroes" got too close to the monkey cage. 10351. Jimbo - 4/26/2000 12:34:55 AM Eric old boy 10352. Jimbo - 4/26/2000 12:37:58 AM Please excuse the terrible typing as I have had several wiskeys, which I felt I needed after a hour or so of Mavis. 10353. robertjayb - 4/26/2000 12:46:34 AM . 10354. Jimbo - 4/26/2000 12:58:08 AM robertjayb 10355. Jimbo - 4/26/2000 1:51:42 AM Hey robertjaybird 10356. ArtVandelay - 4/26/2000 3:45:06 AM Jimbo. 10357. OhioSTOPAS - 4/26/2000 6:00:15 AM Greystoke (Message # 10356): I support the Court of Appeals' ruling. The Ohio motto is a verse from the Bible, with obvious religious significance. 10358. OhioSTOPAS - 4/26/2000 6:06:23 AM By the way, it's interesting that Ohio's Republican governor and legislators picked Matthew 19:26. That's just two verses away from a passage that GOP leaders ignore (while preaching to us, among other things, that homosexuality is a sin): "It is much harder for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle." (Matthew 19:24) 10359. OhioSTOPAS - 4/26/2000 6:08:55 AM Jimbo: I didn't know the KKK had a creative writing workshop, but take your homework out of here. 10360. theDiva - 4/26/2000 8:32:26 AM Is that shit supposed to be funny? 10361. bubbaette - 4/26/2000 8:47:33 AM Diva 10362. OhioSTOPAS - 4/26/2000 8:54:00 AM Or an existing stupid fuck with a new screen name. 10363. rubberducky7 - 4/26/2000 9:14:47 AM Isn't it sad that this is news? 10364. theDiva - 4/26/2000 9:18:54 AM Here is information on the DC zoo shooting. 10365. robertjayb - 4/26/2000 10:34:58 AM . 10366. JudithAtHome - 4/26/2000 11:35:54 AM The state of Iowa is going to bring charges against Dan Savage for his little foray into undercover reporting. They are charging him with ...get this...making a mockery of the Primary election process. 10367. ChristiPeters - 4/26/2000 12:20:05 PM How can you make a mockery of the Primary election process? The Primary election process is a mockery. 10368. bubbaette - 4/26/2000 12:39:37 PM I think that who ever brought the suit is humor-impaired and has no grasp of the concept of a free press. Seems like one of those political moves destined to backfire on the pinhead who thought it up. 10369. PsychProf - 4/26/2000 2:47:02 PM I HATED THAT BAND 10370. robertjayb - 4/26/2000 3:14:44 PM . 10371. Greystoke - 4/26/2000 5:11:47 PM Florida man, shot 20 years ago, becomes Baltimore's 95th homocide this year. 10372. Greystoke - 4/26/2000 5:36:32 PM Nebraska man shot dead while trying to save woman from burning car. 10373. Diogenes - 4/26/2000 5:54:13 PM Ohio,
If it is ever held that the Second Amendment confers a personal right to own guns, would it likewise protect gun sellers from disclosing records of gun purchases?
Uzmakk reporting for cultural reorientation, sirs. Please direct me to the room where the mind cleansing is to take place.
I cannot speak for Cellar, of course, but libertarians like me are opposed to any form of cultural programming. You are free to hold any attitudes and notions you like.
On the other hand, if you really want to review facts and misconceptions about gays and engage in a simple discussion of how government and civil society should respects everyone's rights, we can talk. (Though today is likely to be very busy for me.)
click on photo 
5 will get you 10 they're gonna Jon-Benet him!
Hollywood is just like everywhere else.
Only with better hair.
And?
I say that you seem like a reasonable fellow, but ofcourse you are part of that American Cult of Freedom. Libertarianism, Ha!
I found it odd. I find homosexuality odd.
uzmakk,
Thank you for your kind words. I, too, have problems with the values of Hollywood. And not only the Hollywood of today.
I will add that I see a respect for liberty to be a natural consequence of reasonableness.
Well, I would have to agree with you, Ronski. I like the sound of the words. But we will have to get much more specific. I also am not going to have as much time as I would like today.
Cellar:
What did I think of your review? I am preparing a frontal assault.
The funniest thing I've heard regarding the Elian case was from a local radio commentator (English-language, obviously) who called Marisleysis "Mary-lazy-ass."
If that's the case, I want Jude Law.
I've never subscribed to the "love us or leave us" theory, but I think you're on to something! It seems to me that the "Miami family" is using the child for their own purposes and his welfare is not a prime consideration. Witness the "let's send daddy a video saying you don't want to go back to Cuba." Now that was spontaneous and so keeping with what a 6 year old child would do and say.
Let's really fix the relatives and condemn them to a life locked in a room with Orrin Hatch doing is Ricky Ricardo "Babbalo" imitation.
abusing that poor kid. What hypocracy.
Of course the media loves it all , and probably there are many in
Miami and many Cubans there who feel the anger I do at these assholes, but are never shown on TV
I wonder if the press pays those kidnappers to do all the continuous filming?
At this point I actually have a fantasy of the US Marshals tear gassing that crowd and arresting the relatives of the poor kid and
putting them in the slammer.
BTW whats with the so called NUN...who is living in that mansion behind an iron gate. ? If she had the kid why didn't they just
taken him then.??
You might want to check out my post (24913) in politics, complete with typos and followed by reprimands. We share sentiments on this issue.
btw: watch your spelling or it will be used as a "rebuttal" in place of a valid argument.
Oh, goody. Two people share the same opinion, which is in turn shared by perhaps a hundred million people. What are the odds of that.
Satire is in the eye of the beholder, buddy. Most of what appears on the "real" news amply qualifies as satire.
You there. Do you, sitting there in your nice sterile office, or your nice matte-black apartment, do you realize that 20,000 people gathered in the Little Havana district of Miami last week for a prayer vigil to Elian Gonzalez? DO YOU REALIZE THIS?
This is how out-of-touch you are with America: there are Cubans and non-Cubans alike, strolling the streets near Elian's house, claiming that the boy is a miracle, that he is the Second Coming, that he is Jesus Christ incarnate. "I believe he will return to Cuba someday as a liberator," said Francisco Mendez, some doofus on the street. "He is another Moses."
Oh. My. God. Our lives, as a country, are so without meaning, that we tote six-foot portraits of the Biblical Jesus back and forth in front of some orphaned refugee's house.We mandate police barricades. We chant until the kid's great-uncle totes him onto the front lawn, and lifts him up like a "Best Buns" trophy procured at the latest Shriner's convention.
No, you don't care about Elian, and thus consider yourself sane. Better hope the kid isn't Jesus. Or you're screwed.
Since you appear not to read posts other than those that refer to yours, let me tell you that my sentiments--as expressed in the Mote--toward the Elian situation are the same as yours. However, since I assume most people who particiate in the Mote read the occasional newspaper and own a television, I see no need to present trite, barely grammatical re-hashes of events as portentiously as you do.
Have a nice day.
Do we see a pattern here people?
All togehter noe: Keep the Morons marching!
"Participate," not "particiate."
latest media gives us more entertainment .
Ubiquitous, thanks for your message, but WTF, Ding bag ,or womb bat has this thread
turned into a spelling bee ????
Has anyone seen the kid throw a baseball?
This goes beyond any Fidelista caricature of the United States.
Surely the evil Clintons are behind it! When will it all end? When will Elian be old enough to return to Cuba and slay the evil Castro with his mighty sword? When will the Ramseys cop to killing their kid?
Oh, the humanity!
(cue Kate Smith.)
When I post a simple fact about the market and it sends you into throes of hysteria, it makes you look...well...wing-nuttish.
BTW, in contrast I suppose to some, I think the economy (jobs, stocks, inflation, etc.) is more significant than the alleged difference between Gore and Bush.
Ranger Bill is on the job!
PORTERVILLE, Calif. (AP) -- President Clinton is extending greater protection to more than 30 groves of giant sequoia trees across California, employing his executive authority to add to his environmental legacy in his final year in office.
The declaration Saturday would add to the 2.8 million acres of national monuments Clinton already has created, giving him perhaps the best conservation record in the Lower 48 states since Teddy Roosevelt.
No, Indy -- YOU do!
More like 103, actually.
Quaint, but inaccurate, Cellar. You brought up Clinton, not I. I rarely mention him on this forum, and both here and at TableTalk, when I do address our soon-to-be-ex-President, it's to refute the delusion (thankfully less common here) that he is anything extraordinary or significant except to those who consider him so.
If you think he has anything to do either with the recent downturn in equities or their long runup, I hope you've given over your queen's ransom in book royalties to an honest investment counselor.
Lest you swap them to the next lip-biting elocutionist who offers you a bulging pouch of...brightly colored magic beans.
BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS Sixth grader targeted for 'pro-gun' remarks.
'A' student defends 2nd Amendment, flagged as violence risk
By Jon E. Dougherty © 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
School officials at Harbor Lights Middle School flagged a Holland, Michigan boy as potentially dangerous because the 12-year-old suggested to a teacher that one way to prevent school shootings would be to arm instructors.
Derek Loutzenheiser, a model student who had such good grades that some teachers recommended he be tested early for a popular standardized pre-college performance test, made his comments in early March, after being asked by a social studies teacher what he thought might make kids safer in school.
Derek had been asked to participate in a classroom discussion about "school shootings and safety," said the sixth grader's father, Tim Loutzenheiser.
"My son simply stated that his opinion was that he would feel safer if some of the adults at the school were trained and allowed to carry firearms," Mr. Loutzenheiser told WorldNetDaily.
His reply caused him to be "flagged" as a potential violence risk by teachers and school administrators, who then contacted his parents to suggest they meet with the school's "Hazard and Risk Assessment Team."
"My wife and I were in disbelief when they (school officials) telephoned us and told us that's what they wanted to do," Loutzenheiser said. "We asked, 'Do you have the right kid?'" In resulting talks with school officials, Loutzenheiser said he learned that his son "often spoke favorably about the First and Second Amendments, but the comment he made to his Social Studies teacher was the one that triggered this action."
"We were told that this would be in the best interest of my son, and by doing this the school would not have to involve Social Services," Loutzenheiser said. "We refused."
Of the meeting with "team" members, Loutzenheiser said, "We got right to the point and determined that the charges against my son are without merit. They all assured me that he is a wonderful student, gets straight A's, and because he is a little more advanced academically (at their suggestion he took the ACT test and scored very well) they feel he may need an 'adult' to talk to about issues." Loutzenheiser admitted he didn't know what team members were implying about having Derek "talk to an adult about issues." He added, "We were able to determine that because my son knows and understands political and Constitutional issues so well, that he often speaks in terms not typical of a 12-year-old, and we should be assured they have no issues with this."
At that point, the couple contacted an attorney in nearby Grand Rapids, Michigan -- one referred to them through the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action. The couple has also been told by a representative from the Rutherford Institute, an international legal and educational civil liberties organization, that "they would be willing to take on this issue."
Loutzenheiser said when he and his wife, Shelly, arrived for the Hazard Team meeting Mar. 8, "We were outnumbered 7 to 2." He told WorldNetDaily that he wanted to make a good first impression with the members, so he shook each member's hand and introduced himself. He also told them he had brought along a tape recorder and would be taping the proceedings since none of the legal organizations that said they would represent him could not send a representative to the meeting on such short notice.
"My wife and I both saw a transformation from 'smugness' ... to looks of great concern on some of their faces," he said.
"What was odd about the purpose of this whole meeting," said Loutzenheiser, "was that three of the team members were Derek's teachers, and each of them said they didn't know there was any 'situation' with him. That got me to thinking, 'Then why are we here?'"
However, and though "team" members denied it, the elder Loutzenheiser said he believes teachers and school administrative personnel began to form a bad impression of his son when, in January of this year, the sixth grader refused to sign a "Red Letter" vow of peace to celebrate Martin Luther King's birthday.
"The letter, which was written by the principal," Loutzenheiser said, "asked the students to take an oath to turn in their friends for suspicious activity, to vow to never defend themselves if attacked, and something to the effect of never to use a gun or other weapons. Derek simply told the principal, 'I'm not signing that.' "I think that's what got him 'noticed' by some of the administrative staff at least," he said.
Maybe Cartman's right. We are no different from Cuba or the Soviet Union.
Step over the PC-liberal line and they "monitor your thought processes." You are obviously crazy and dangerous, because you do not support the NEA's position on the Second Amendment.
"Derek simply told the principal, 'I'm not signing that.'"
Ha, ha, ha. Some kid has the confidence and intellectual maturity to simply refuse to sign the Principal's "Let's all be happy friends and hug and love" letter, so of course that kid is fucking DANGEROUS.
Principal: "Now, signing my little PC experiment letter is nice and voluntary. It's SOOOOOO voluntary, in fact, that if you refuse, you will be 'noticed' by our crack Mental Health Team."
Amazing story, Joe.
Loutzenheiser said, "asked the students to take an oath to
turn in their friends for suspicious activity..."
That's hardly a PC-liberal line. Sounds like Joe McCarthy is alive and well.
If the article accurately characterizes the principal's oath, then he should be fired.
Why would anyone in authority in a free society be encouraging kids to sign something like that? Turn in your friends? Don't defend yourself if attacked? Never use a gun? Its Michigan for heavens sake! Aren't kids allowed to hunt?
It probably only applied to "kids," not adults! Too many principals don't think kids have rights.
"That's hardly a PC-liberal line."
Hmmmm... seems to me the Soviets demanded informants.
And PC goonsquad tactics are a direct descendant of the Marxist Vanguard, patrolling the hoi polloi for Thought Crimes and Speech Crimes.
"since when have the Soviets = liberal?"
Since always?
"Liberal" equals "leftist" in today's parlance. Real liberals --classical liberals-- would be considered near-fascists by today's putatative liberals.
Real liberals -- classical liberals -- wouldn't support such goonsquad tactics. But what we call "liberals" today are leftists, and they, of course, would.
Because they know better.
Because they care.
Because, in order to create the perfect society, imperfections must be reeducated.
Those you call "liberals" always seem right wing to me! They "care" just as Pat Robertson's folks "care."
Is their any way to get Ted Nugent to mediate the dispute? Using his empathy and tactfulness, the whole thing could be resolved in no time.
You are talking about SAlon mag aint cha.
I guess i just go to Books, Cats in Private life and once in while
White house. So Cato sounds most unfamiliar.
BTW...do you sometimes or even often write a post on Salon TT
and then not get it posted?
It happens to me a lot . Most frustrating.
Salon tends to tell me something wrong with my ISP.
But I am told the problem is with Salon's servers.
Grey:
Sorry - left for the day right after I posted that article.
Yes, this is Michigan, dammit, and this is BIGTIME hunting territory, and I hate to see the PC thought police worm their way into this side of the state, despite the fact that gun violence stats here are relatively very low.
And speaking of Uncle Ted, I'd like to see him escorting the kid around as his self-appointed "mentor", compound bow in hand, quiver full of arrows on his back, dressed only in his loincloth, Stranglehold blaring in the background....
BTW - if anyone's interested, here's the complete article.
I've just read the complete article myself myself, and it's even weirder than I'd thought.
Maybe Cartman's right. We are no different from Cuba or the Soviet Union.
Maybe Ace is right. It's fun and educational to download, read, and deconstruct gay porn on the Internet.
Asswipe.
FWIW, I remember reading about this Loutzenheiser kid, and marvelling at the PC hysteria inflicted on this poor kid. It's bullshit, but it's to be expected. People expected results after Columbine, guess what -- you got results.
When public schools are largely expected to subsume the role of imparting values and morals to kids, this is what happens. So either motherfuckers step up and assume a responsible role in child-rearing and education, or they can leave it to a faceless gov't bureaucracy.
But this kid is getting a raw deal. It's up to people to turn off the Columbine hysteria and take a more active role in these things.
Yes the law is the law, but the law is not as clear as you would like to believe. The law says that any Cuban citizen who reaches these shores get political asylum. The law does not say that a biological father has an absolute right to his child. If a court determines that it is not in the child's best interest to be returned to his father, the child is not returned. If the former is enforced, Elian stays here. If the latter is enforce, Elian still might stay.
Thought Reform
Anyone see the Susan & Tim show on C-Span?
Yup - the International Frustrated Because We Were Not Old Enough To Protest The Really Important Stuff Association, in Washington to protest the evil WTO, invited Mrs. & Mr. Sarandon to add their uninformed voices and studiedly bookish visages to the fray.
"We are not experts", both of them began their "speeches" -which was entirely unnecessary, as this became apparent within seconds of them opening their yaps.
"It is wrong to expect repayment from countries after 20 years - why, that's like expecting payment from a child for his father's gambling debts....uh, addiction!", declared Mr. Sarandon.
REPORTER: "Could one of you studiedly bookish yet stylish Hollywood luminaries please comment on the effects globalization is having on the indigenous cultures of the world?"
SARANDON: "Yes - if globalization continues at its current pace, there are several cultures "down south...uh, in, like, the Amazon" (her actual words), that are in danger of being completely exploited by these huge corporations, before Hollywood will be able to get crews down there to exploit them for some shitty documentary..."
...or something like that.
What a joke.
Hey, I couldn't make this stuff up even if I wanted to.
An excerpt:
The 20-year-old is a single mother of three young children, including a daughter born two months ago.
Snow was separated from the infant after the birth and back in jail the next day. Relatives are raising the baby, along with her two older siblings.
"I don't think it's fair for them to keep me in here when I haven't committed a crime," Snow said in a jailhouse interview.
Where is Rumpole when you need him?
Farmer Jailed For Life For Murdering Burglar
A farmer who killed a burglar who broke into his isolated farmhouse has been jailed for life.
Tony Martin, 55, was found guilty of murdering 16-year-old Fred Barras at Norwich Crown Court. He was also found guilty of wounding with intent and sentenced to 10 years to run concurrently. He was sentenced to a further 12 months after he admitted possessing a shotgun without a certificate.
When you check back in here, please consider yourself invited to join us on Saturday for the Mini-Mote Texas Get-together. And this goes for anyone in Texas who wants to participate. E-mail either ChristinO or me at our e-mail addresses posted in Notices...
The Duct Tape Chronicles (continued):
Man Fearing Gators Tapes Himself to Tree 
If anyone tried to keep my child from me,
it would be me holding that gun !
Who's child is he anyway ?
That family brought this on itself !
Have the feds nailed Fast Eddy at last...or will he skate once again?
BATON ROUGE, La. (AP) -- After hearing hours of instructions, jurors in former Gov. Edwin Edwards' racketeering trial were handed the task today of deciding the fate of the former four-term governor.
Edwards and his six co-defendants are accused of trying to rig riverboat casino licenses and extort money from people who wanted the licenses.
..............................
Do you think the goverment's raid on the Gonzalez's Miami home was handled properly?
Yes: 60%
No: 39%
Undecided: 0%
Total votes: 61753
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: This is not a scientific poll. It merely reflects the opinion of our on-line readers who chose to participate.
From last week's Time:
Edwards....once said the only way he'd lose an election was if he "got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
[From his trial:]
JIM LETTEN (Prosecutor): Are you perjuring yourself?
EDWARDS: No. And if I were, you've got to assume I wouldn't be telling you."
"Asked if he recalled a soiree at which he approached someone who was angling for a riverboat license and asked his name, Edwards sniffed that no such thing would ever happen. I'm a politician, he said. I would have asked someone else who he was and then gone up and acted like I knew him."
Refreshingly honest. Too bad he didn't have the good sense to run for the Presidency...at which point his increased political capital would no doubt engender such comments from many of his current detractors as, Hey - 'dis heah' is Loosian! We got ow' own ways o' keepin' da' wheels greased, unnastan'?
Mrs. Donovan could probably make a buck or two by selling that statue to some of those rabblerousers down in Miami.
(However, I suspect that's not true. I'll bet Mr. Donovan was "hot to trot", and she was PRETENDING to be asleep. No doubt she was wondering what the hell he was doing making all that noise.)
An internet murder mystery in Texas...the Rangers are booting up!
Melton, the jury foreman, said in an interview that the jury had decided to convict, but couldn't agree on the charge. They wanted to avoid a mistrial, so they decided to flip a coin. Because all agreed on the coin toss, they thought it was legal and didn't know it was wrong, he said.
"Realistically, I didn't think we had anything to lose," Melton said. "We were going to be hung without it."
Certainly makes you confident about facing a jury of your peers...
But its not quite as bad as the headline makes it sound:
The jury was deadlocked 11-1 for murder and 11-1 for manslaughter. Melton said 10 jurors were willing to compromise. But one was unwilling to budge on manslaughter and another was steadfast for murder.
Then came the toss of a silver dollar.
Deciding guilt or innocence based on a coin flip would have been much worse, IMO.
I am all for separation of church and state, but isn't this just a wee bit silly? How can something as passive as a motto be unconstitutional?
Well, obviously, the New Orleans Saints are also unconstitutional. By both name and behavior, they promote Christianity, showing extreme charity to the other teams in the NFL. They play in a stadium funded by the government. Most of their players attended state owned universities. Their games are broadcast across the electromagnetic spectrum, which is owned and licensed by the government. And they play in a monopolistic league that is sanctioned by the government. The Governor of Louisiana used his government salary to bet on their games.
They must be immediately renamed lest we are all forcibly indoctrinated into the Christian faith by an out of control, crusading government.
It seemed that the Negroes got too close to the Monkey cage at the smell of the monkeys trigered a racial memory that caused them to want to do some vine swinging and some spear chucking and they just sort of went ape shit crazy and tore up the place which is sort of what happens when Negroes get gtoo close to monkeys and apes.
Now, she claimed that white people have a different racial memory which is trigered by seeing cows and sheep which makes them horney and reminds them of their first sexual experience. She claimed that the sight of a cow or sheep made them hot for their sister. She warned those white women who had brothers to cross their legs if their brothers were close to sheep.
Now I just don't know what to think, but I know this is dangerous stuff, because I was driving on a country road when old Mavis was going on and I damned near drove off the road when I saw all those sheep.
She sure seemed to know all about Negroes and why they tear things up the way they do. I have to give up some credit since she was as graduate of some school down in Florida. She read all this about white boys beinhg turned on by cows and sheep in the National Archives, so she is well read. White women are turned on by horses, she insisted. Now what is a guy to thinbk of that?
Goodbye, Jimbo.
"Goodbye, Jimbo."
Goodbye to you Mr. Jay Bird! And hello at the same time. What do you think of Mavis's analysis of what makes those Negroes run amuck? Now I would say African Americans, but she sort of took umbrage with that. She insisted they be called new Negores. Just why that was I can't say, and I don't know how to get hold of Mavis to find out.
Now you have to realize, I am just the mesenger for all this, so don't go thinking I I fully accept Mavis's reasoning. But I do like to keep an open mind. Are you turned on by the sight of sheep?
Shove it up your chicken!
Is that a joke, or do you think that's a belivable thing to say about negroes? It sure sounds pretty nasty to me. But maybe that's the whisky talking (for you I mean -- I usually stick to cheap wine for a nightcap).
Welcome, and don't be too discouraged by the seeming lack of response so far. It can slow down a little on some nights. I think everyone stops to watch "Shasta McNasty" or something like that.
The Ohio motto is a minor matter in isolation, but I think the process of politicians using public money and public works to show constituents how religious they are should be nipped in the bud. Going down that road will lead to religious divisions in society, and discrimination against worshipers whose religions are in the minority.
Just another stupid fuck crawling out from under his rock.
Ugh.
A troubadour of troubles: Whatever happened to Tom Lehrer?
click on image 
Jury misconduct means new trial for Snickers thief
What's up with this Jones?
...and then there's Matthew 5:6 which might make a Republican politician squirm:
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, t
