Here's a military presence.
Curfew and martial law are a tad different.
20029. AceofSpades - 9/11/2001 3:50:02 PM
Kill them all. All of them.
20030. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 3:50:25 PM
Message # 20022
I agree Indiana. I have four commercial pilots in my family, and I've had flying lessons, too. Flying a commercial airline, especially a Boeing 767, isn't "easy". After the last lesson I had, I sat in the cockpit with my great uncle, from Seattle to Dallas. The dials, switches, controls, and pattern of the interior was completely different than that of a cessna.
I think that these terrorists could fly commercial jets because they were trained pilots.
20031. LimeGirl - 9/11/2001 3:50:27 PM
I'm sure they had their own pilots, although the flight sims are so good these days, they could have done much of their training on those -- you can even choose your cockpit on them, so they could have been very familiar with it without a lot of actual practice.
Martial law doesn't seem like a good idea. It feels important that we attempt to stand strong, not become overly paranoid. It disturbs me to see how many things are closed today, I can't tell if they're closed as a day of mourning kind of thing, or if it's fear that's propelling them to all close. I can understand the first, if it's the second, I'm bothered.
20032. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 3:50:58 PM
When we find out who did this.....
anyone remember how to hang, draw and quarter someone?
20033. concerned - 9/11/2001 3:51:56 PM
Re. 20024 -
David Koresh could in no way have been considered a terrorist, of course.
20034. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 3:52:41 PM
Whoa! There's Ace.
Even some of the liberals were worried about you, old shoe.
20035. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 3:53:14 PM
From what I hear beteween lines from Swedish officials (including the Prime Minister) it is clear that a big international intelligence gathering operation is underway.
20036. ronski - 9/11/2001 3:53:17 PM
No pilot would fly a plane into a building. He'd crash it first. The terrorists had to include pilots. They needn't have been super skilled, but they would have had to have some experience flying a jet.
My guess is that if it is bin Laden, he had these guys in his employ for some time. They were probably pilots for the military in a middle eastern country at some time. Or commercial pilots, but many of those have military experience. Whether this implicates an actual state though is another matter.
20037. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 3:53:30 PM
I like a strong military presence. Show the terrorists that we're tough and fully capable of destroying small countries. I like organization. This also shows strength in my opinion.
20038. ronski - 9/11/2001 3:53:59 PM
Ace,
You may not believe this, but some of us were worried about you.
20039. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 3:54:20 PM
curfew and martial law entirely unnecessary...this is not a residential area but a business area that typically drained of people at 5. Right now, hordes of people are walking across the bridges trying to get home. It looks like a NY city marathon in reverse.
20040. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 3:56:33 PM
thoughtful,
When we find out who did this.....
anyone remember how to hang, draw and quarter someone?
We can't, remember? We don't believe in the death penalty it's too barbaric, just ask Pelle.
Me personally, I say execute everyone involved.
20041. ronski - 9/11/2001 3:57:39 PM
There are plenty of apartments in adjacent Battery Park City. I actually hope those people are not prevented from going to their homes. It is no doubt traumatic enough for them already.
20042. concerned - 9/11/2001 3:57:48 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but choosing the WTC buildings was not a very good choice for a terrorist attack, since (I've never been there) it would seem that there might be a high proportion of foreign nationals present in those buildings.
And the hit that international, not just American, stock exchanges and markets are taking aren't going to be making the perpetrators and sympathizers of these terrorist acts anything but enemies in the industrialized nations.
20043. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 3:59:19 PM
A friend of ours who was military intelligence for 8 years was just contacted by his former superior. Somehow they tracked his cellphone number and wanted to know his location.
It seems that the military is going to use all of its resources, including members not even in reserve anymore!
20044. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:00:07 PM
Jenna:
I like a strong military presence.
You just want to see all those musclebound men milling about in their uniforms. Admit it.
20045. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:00:20 PM
connie,
A large subway bombing attack by Palestinian Arabs was planned for Brooklyn but was thwarted, only blocks from the second-largest Arab community in the borough. They don't think about these things.
20046. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 4:00:48 PM
I was in Moscow at the time of the August/September 1999 terrorist bombings which eventually led to the second Chechen war. Like the USA, Russia had been more or less a virgin to such attacks. And the reactions being heard on the television in the USA are eerily reminiscent of the reactions I heard and saw in Russia.
On the other hand, I'm sure Arab-Americans would not be rounded up. At the Kazan railway station in Moscow two days after the bombing, I witnessed two Caucasians being harassed, strip-searched at gun point and nearly beaten by the Moscow militia.
20047. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:01:02 PM
The hardest parts of flying are take-off and landing. I assume the hijackers let the commercial pilot take off, then took over. Obviously, they didn't need to know how to land. They had to have some flying experience, but they didn't need to be very experienced pilots or commercial pilots.
20048. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:02:36 PM
Here's a military presence.
20049. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:02:53 PM
Mind you, I'm not convinced about who is responsible. I do think a home-grown band of nuts is not entirely out of the question, but it is unlikely. We haven't had any major suicide political attacks. At least not yet.
20050. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:03:11 PM
On the contrary, I think the World Trade Center is the perfect target. Visible and unmistakeable from the air, lots of deaths with good chances for collateral damage around it, symbolic of but also integral to America's economic empire, and less likely to be well defended.
Hitting the Pentagon was much ballsier on that last score.
Make no mistake, though. I'm with the "kill them all" faction. And "execution" sounds too medicinal.
I have calmed down some from this morning, but I expect once I'm able to get around a TV and see footage that will change.
20051. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:04:26 PM
Ace, it's good to see you. I wasn't completely sure, but I thought you said you worked downtown.
I heard on the radio that a guy called in on his cell to say they were hijacked; has it been on the news or was that a rumor?
20052. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 4:04:54 PM
The commercial jet that crashed in western Penn. was aiming itself at Camp David, Maryland.
20053. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:05:46 PM
The footage is horrifying. I don't choke up much at disaster footage, but the first time I saw the building collapse it was extremely upsetting. And it's only going to get worse.
20054. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:06:51 PM
Concerned,
The WTC is the symbol of America's wealth and the Pentagon the symbol of its military might. Why would the presence of lesser countries' financial offices deter a terrorist from striking at the heart of American business?
Any:
How about something simple? All four flights are regular commuter-type flights-----hence the low flight numbers. They fly every day, on time to regular destinations with a specific amount of fuel.
What's so difficult about buying six or eight tickets for each of these flights and putting your terrorist crews aboard them and then taking over the flights?
Most of the timing is just regularly scheduled by air traffic controll. All the terrorists had to do was get on the plane, overpower the crew & passengers and then replace the pilot with one of their own to ensure the target.
It doesn't seem all that complicated to me. Perhaps that's why it's so horrifying.
20055. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:06:54 PM
It was on the news. See 1:20pm on the news monitor site I linked.
Here's the link again:
News Monitor
20056. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:07:25 PM
CNN is quoting US sources that say they have specific, new intelligence information linking this with Osama followers.
20057. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:07:31 PM
Maybe the US govt. should hire Stooge Reno to smoke out the perpetrators. We already know she has no qualms over roasting babies.
20058. Åse - 9/11/2001 4:07:47 PM
One of the links in this article http://www.sptimes.com/ has a section about the cell-phone guy.
That was on the plane that crashed in pennsylvania.
20059. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:07:47 PM
NBC said that the guy who called was on the plane that crashed in Pittsburgh. He was apparently calling from the bathroom.
20060. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:07:48 PM
ronski: Sure it could be home-grown. If it turns out to be Middle Easterners who were in Bin Laden's employ for a long time and trained as pilots as you posited earlier, that's a helluva deal. In that case our intelligence agencies probably deserve shooting only a little less than the people who did this. If people meeting that description can roam around and board US planes in groups without detection...!?
OTOH, remember, Tim McVeigh was an ex-US military.
20061. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:08:06 PM
While you are there, check out the link to the State Dept Travel Warnings
20062. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:09:24 PM
MsNo,
But they must have had guns, and I think guns are still hard to get on planes.
20063. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:10:46 PM
Nice gun Rustler. I shall hire you to protect me.
Perhaps I'm in touch with my "masculine" side, because I am the biggest fan of the military. If I had it to all over again, I would have enlisted in the airforce or have been a SWAT sniper.
In any case, I think that it shows strength, unity, and purpose when the US rallies behind a strong and orderly US military presence. We have to show the world that we're tough and that we're going to make it.
20064. Absensia - 9/11/2001 4:11:20 PM
Ms. No...didn't know they were commuter flights. We don't have those here..makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks.
20065. mizphys - 9/11/2001 4:11:54 PM
I don't think they would have had to have guns. Just maybe a vial of something that they could say was a biological weapon or something.
20066. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:12:11 PM
Re. 20062 -
Not if the luggage isn't inspected, as it should be. Also, I know of a Glock pistol, for instance, which is designed to not be detectable by X Rays.
20067. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:12:55 PM
Ms. No:
I guess you're right, but still - I don't know. How did they succeed so devastatingly? They always fuck up in even the simplest of schemes -and here, they succeeded so amazingly!
20068. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:14:04 PM
I think that the planes only had about three terrorists on board, assuming that none were on them in a professional capacity.
20069. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:14:28 PM
Indy,
The reasons you cite is why I haven't ruled out McVeigh types. But why would homegrown nuts want to go after the WTC, and not the White House, Capital, etc. This smacks more of people concerned about American "imperialism." And that doesn't sound like American militia types to me.
And if Camp David was indeed a target, and it's the anniversary of the Camp David accords, it points overseas.
20070. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:14:35 PM
767 and 757 are not commuter flights.
20071. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 4:14:41 PM
Pray for the NYC firefighters and their families. ABC reported that at least 200 are dead.
20072. judithathome - 9/11/2001 4:14:52 PM
Building 7 of the WTC complex is on fire now and expected to collapse...CNN.
20073. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:15:18 PM
Someone was saying that if there were enough of them they didn't need guns. That's true.
20074. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:15:23 PM
Boston to LA is a pretty long commuter flight. No doubt the planes were full of gasoline making the explosions much more intense.
20075. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:15:34 PM
CG,
Why must? I think that six or eight military trained killers hi-jacking a plane are scary enough for most folks not to attempt to over-power them.
In the event that someone did try, there are other weapons besides guns that can be smuggled onto a plane that would discourage heroic attempts.
I think it could easily come down to a numbers game. It's hard to get 35 people to risk their lives all at once to attack terrorists when the odds are that they'll be rescued or spared later.
20076. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 4:15:54 PM
plastique is not detectable by the metal detectors
20077. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:15:55 PM
Capitol.
20078. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:16:05 PM
commuter planes, I mean.
20079. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:16:09 PM
The size of the nation will temper the bloodlust. Because we are so massive, even as grand scale an attack as this will be absorbed rather quickly. To the extent any rabid calls for hasty retribution continue, they will exist simply because television will let them vent under the banner "America Under Attack -Day ___".
Regardless, trust in the media's ability to suck the meaning and context out of any happening (in 36 hours, real, seemingly non-retarded people will be taking the positions taken by jexster and concerned before Geraldo and O'Reilly and the rest of the crew), and any dangerous venom will be dissipated under a blizzard of human interest stories ("Arab Beaten in Puxatawney"), political blather, rank speculation (cue Pierre Salinger), and the airing of all opinions, no matter how moronic.
After Karne Hughes statement, for example, the well-coiffed Brian Williams opened his comments to Tim Russert with (I kid you not), "Style point, here, Tim . . ." as he queried whether the Presdient should have spoken, as opposed to Ms. Hughes.
Concern over style points mutes vengeance.
Thus, hopefully, political pressure to react will be stymied, and we can bide our time to find the perpetrators.
And then, as Ace states, in a month, or two, or six, kill them. Kill them all.
20080. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:16:45 PM
I'm falling asleep.
20081. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 4:16:54 PM
The question is, why were the DC targets so much less ambitious (in terms of visibility) than in New York?
20082. LimeGirl - 9/11/2001 4:17:25 PM
It doesn't seem like it'd be out of the ordinary that Bin Laden would have pilots in his employ. And intelligence could know about this, and still not expect that him having people who knew how to fly planes would end up like it did.
When they try to be exceedingly careful about letting Middle Easterners into the country, then you get articles like the one I read a while back about an author from the Middle East who was coming to the US for an awards ceremony or something, and he refused to be fingerprinted, so they wouldn't let him in. And he was horrifed at how prejudiced the US was.
It's difficult to find the balance, and if they are more secure about checking identities on entry into the country, they're going to get flak about it. This incident may make people care less about the fussing about more difficult entry, but it certainly has been an issue in the past.
20083. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:17:51 PM
CG,
No, not commuter flights in the sense of small business jumps that the same people take every day. But commuter-type in that they are regular, daily flights going to the same destination, possibly with the same flight crews day after day after day. Yes, trans-continental but still just a long bus-ride kind of flight.
20084. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:18:37 PM
ronski: I know. But suppose you wanted to do something and blame it on the Arabs. After all, they already hit the WTC once.
Until they recover the black boxes, the passenger lists are the biggest clues. And that's why I'd look for pilots or people with pilot training.
My bet is that it's the usual suspects (Middle East terrorists). But maybe not.
20085. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:18:43 PM
The tops of the World Trade Center fall before the eyes of Guiliani, he screams "Fuck!" They play the cut. Go to Brian Williams.
"Style point, here, Tim . . . "
20086. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:18:47 PM
Planes are equipped with emergency notification systems. The fact that none of the flights were reported as being hijacked *during* the flights (except for the lone cell call) tells me that either the pilots were executed immediately or that the pilots themselves were the terrorists.
20087. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:19:19 PM
I dunno. I'd be delighted if we do retaliate, but ever since someone mentioned Lockerbie--and, for that matter, the WTC--I've been wondering if that's not a possibility. It will just fade from view.
20088. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:19:34 PM
I'm not sure the DC targets were less ambitious, the Pentagon and Camp David.
20089. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:19:49 PM
FU -
--will be taking the places of Jexster and FU, that is...
20090. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 4:20:47 PM
Guns. Why assume they needed guns? I would think on each plane at least 3-4 men were involved, one of whom would have to fly the plane. The US pilot and copilot would have been killed (hell, you can strangle a man with a necktie), then the terrorist pilot guided the plane to the target. I would think the age of the terrorists to be dissimilar to avoid the appearance of a group, and on board at least two or three would be needed to stand outside the cockpit door to prevent passengers from rushing the hijacking pilot. Any weapon - a plastic shiv - could cut down anyone who approached, and I think the terrorists probably said to the crew and passengers they had nothing to fear as this was a hijacking that would end by safely landing the plane at the nearest airport.
You've all flown on US airlines and you know how casual it can be for passengers in the front to go to the bathrooms next to the cockpit; it would be easy to threaten a flight attendant to open the door, or even step in when the flight attendants were serving beverages and lunch to the flight crew.
20091. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:20:56 PM
Re. 20084 -
Aliases are quite likely...
20092. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:21:03 PM
Style point, here, ronski.
Isn't targeting Camp David too visible a shot at American Jewry?
Would not Bin Laden have been better served targeting Camp Ochebogowa?
20093. alistairconnor - 9/11/2001 4:21:16 PM
Here's an extract from the BBC: pilots reckon it's not that hard for an amateur to hit a skyscraper.
By BBC News Online's Sheila Barter and Jenny Matthews
The pilots of the doomed American airliners could have been dead by the time their planes hit their targets, say airline experts.
Ex-pilots believe that even a man with a gun to his head would not fly into a building housing thousands of people - and faced with certain death, would crash the plane elsewhere.
I doubt the pilots were at the controls
David Learmount, Flight International
And a terrorist with no previous flying experience would have found it relatively easy to steer a plane through the final moments of its journey and into its target, David Learmount, Operations and Safety Editor of Flight International, told BBC News Online.
"It would be dead easy to aim an aircraft at a target that big," he said.
"They may have shot the pilots, or taken out at least one of them, and taken over the controls.
I'm sure they would never have got an airline pilot to have done their dirty work
Anonymous pilot
"As a former pilot, I would just aim for the ground, even if it would mean the death of everyone on board.
"I doubt the pilots were at the controls."
Other pilots also believe the crews were dead.
"I'm sure they would never have got an airline pilot to have done their dirty work. I hope it was mercifully quick," said one contributor to the pilots' internet site, the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network.
20094. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 4:21:39 PM
The targets I'm sure were all symbols of US power.
20095. judithathome - 9/11/2001 4:21:45 PM
if they are more secure about checking identities on entry into the country, they're going to get flak about it.
Who cares? Let the flak fly rather than highjacked planes; Israel gets flak for the stringent checks they do at the airports but it works.
20096. LimeGirl - 9/11/2001 4:22:05 PM
I'd think there could be all kinds of ways to get weapons onto a plane besides waltzing through the metal detector with them. People have to clean the plane between flights, etc. They could have figured out a way to have their weapons ready and waiting for them when they boarded.
20097. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:22:23 PM
Christin--but the flights leaving at that time would normally be packed. It is possible that traffic really is that light due to the recession, but it is still unusual.
Francis--that the media have already named this catastrophe demonstrates that it's just one more item in a busy news cycle. If the public buys this approach, it's even more likely they'll all forget about this in a few months.
20098. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:24:35 PM
The media is based in NY and DC. The media will have known people who died. The media will not forget.
20099. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:24:44 PM
It is the true testament to American greatness, the twin towers of vastness of size and short attention spans.
This is not a criticism. Look at the fates of the little nations that can never let more minor violent slights go.
20100. Seamus - 9/11/2001 4:25:01 PM
They had knives or somesuch, since two of the flight attendants were described as having been "stabbed" before the assailants got onto the flight deck.
20101. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:25:11 PM
Scott,
It is awfully hard to get into the cockpit. Also, I'm not sure that passengers would sit still for a hijacking if there weren't guns involved. Maybe. I agree that it is possible, and probably more possible than them getting guns on the plane.
20102. LimeGirl - 9/11/2001 4:25:27 PM
Who cares? Let the flak fly rather than highjacked planes; Israel gets flak for the stringent checks they do at the airports but it works.
Obviously. But usually it takes an event of disasterous proprotions before people are willing to do things like that.
20103. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:25:27 PM
Re. 20050 -
I was speaking in terms of the extent of the backlash that would result from such actions.....
20104. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:26:01 PM
I'm worried about my co-workers of middle-eastern extraction. I hope none of the rednecks in town hurt them.
20105. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:26:17 PM
God forbid that any flight attendants be armed.
20106. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:26:32 PM
Expert says bin Laden warned of unprecedented
U.S. attack
20107. mizphys - 9/11/2001 4:27:00 PM
Speaking of Britain, my children's school headmaster just called and expressed his condolences to us because he knows we're American and from New York. It was a nice gesture, but kind of odd too.
20108. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:27:10 PM
People will not forget about this in a few months.
The destruction of the Manhattan skyline, the destruction of the Pentagon and *thousands* of lives lost is not the same as the "End of Camelot".
20109. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:27:31 PM
ronski
The media will not fotget, they will simply chew on it from so many increasingly absurd angles that it will lose meaning, hopefully giving adults the opportunity to assess, calculate and strike.
For example, what was the time span between the killing of American servicemen at the German disco and the massive bombing of Libya, a bombing that killed many in Qaddafi's (sp?) family an left him without testicles?
20110. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:27:41 PM
It is the true testament to American greatness, the twin towers of vastness of size and short attention spans.
True enough. But if we don't figure out a way to retaliate in a manner suitable to our attention span, I'm not sure how long we can stay great. That presumes continued attacks, though, and I doubt too many of this magnitude can be pulled off in a decade.
20111. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:28:51 PM
The destruction of the Manhattan skyline, the destruction of the Pentagon and *thousands* of lives lost is not the same as the "End of Camelot".
Well, as far as the news coverage goes, it is. In any event, I wouldn't count on it. No, we won't "forget"--not with the media around to remind us. But there is a real possibility that we'll "move on".
20112. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:28:55 PM
If I were coordinating a timed attack involving four jets hitting targets around the US, I'd want pilots flying them. Remember also that the second jet hit the second tower.
I also read (which may of course may be false among so much other rumor today) that the hit on the Pentagon was in a particularly sensitive area. Of course that may also have been luck.
But you don't carefully plan and think of details like choosing planes with full trans-continental fuel loads while saying "Let Abdul crash the plane. He always wanted to fly one of these birds."
20113. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:29:09 PM
I got a call from my English family. I was having trouble reaching them. I had taken my late partner's brother and wife to the WTC area several times. They are in shock.
20114. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:30:07 PM
Tom Brokaw said that Barbara Olson called her husband from her cell phone to say 'We're being hijacked; can you believe that?' and then the phone went dead.
20115. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:30:40 PM
The greatest attack on US soil in history will not be forgotten.
Oklahoma wasn't, neither will New York.
If anything, this will have a lasting legacy of anti-Muslim sentiment.
It was bad during the Gulf War, I can only imagine how bad it's going to be now.
20116. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:31:16 PM
Contrary to FU's and CalGal's beliefs, there shouldn't be much worry about people 'forgetting' this. Many still haven't 'forgotten' the OC bombing, which was only a hundredth as damaging.
20117. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:31:19 PM
Fortunately, travel is light right now. So in the short term, everyone will tolerate any increased security. Economy picks up, travel increases, and we have very short memories. Figure a year, maybe less, of tight security.
Incidentally, American and United must be absolutely shellshocked.
20118. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:31:34 PM
Seamus: Where did you hear that detail about the flight attendant?
20119. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:32:06 PM
Oh, I thought Judith said Olsen was at the Pentagon.
20120. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:32:19 PM
They're advising people in Muslim attire to stay out of public areas. It begins.
20121. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:32:21 PM
CalGal,
Forgetting is not the same as moving on, surely you know this.
20122. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 4:32:27 PM
Was Camp David actually attacked?
20123. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:32:40 PM
Re. 20117 -
There will be permanent security changes at airports, or at least ones that will last many years.
20124. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:33:03 PM
Eh, the anti-Muslim sentiment suggests backwaterism that I don't believe is the case. Now, when some person of Middle Eastern descent does get a sock in the jaw, count on six camera crews and page 1.
20125. Seamus - 9/11/2001 4:33:04 PM
IJ,
Unfortunately, I'm suffering from source overload, so I can't remember, but it was part of the reported conversation between the 911 operator and the cell phone guy.
20126. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:33:05 PM
Re. 20122 -
No.
20127. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:33:06 PM
Yeah, Barbara Olson is said to have called from the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.
20128. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:33:22 PM
No. But it has been reported that the fourth plane downed in Pennsylvania was headed there.
20129. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:33:31 PM
Many still haven't 'forgotten' the OC bombing, which was only a hundredth as damaging.
They caught him and he acted alone. Besides, Americans have "forgotten" it to the extent that they would resist the hell out of any increased security in the name of OKC.
20130. judithathome - 9/11/2001 4:33:49 PM
Cal, I said she was on the plane that hit the Pentagon...bizarre that she was able to call her husband.
20131. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:33:55 PM
Last message to PE.
20132. mizphys - 9/11/2001 4:35:01 PM
I heard an interview with Tom Clancy on BBC Radio 4 today (speaking of angles on the story); he apparently wrote a novel in which terrorists crash a plane into the Capitol Building. He was urging people not to turn against islamics. Or novelists, presumably.
20133. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:35:06 PM
I believe it was not actually attacked but that one of the two other hijacked planes that crashed was "aimed" for Camp David.
I'm not sure how they could know that when there weren't any survivors.
20134. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:35:15 PM
CG,
I don't know what the normal occupancy for those flights is. Perhaps they are merely flights to return planes to LA and SF. I'm sure that info will come out later. All I'm saying is that the hi-jacked flights were routine, daily flights which means that the scheduling is cake and the security is likely to be far more lax than for other flights. It means that the plan could be far cheaper and far simpler than many have proposed.
Simple, cheap plans work best. Their the easiest to remember and execute and have less chance for error.
20135. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:35:31 PM
Oh, duh. I thought she was in the Pentagon.
Doesn't sound like she was particularly worried, which does suggest something like Scott's scenario.
Jenerator--that we can "move on" from this the way we "moved on" from OKC or the WTC is rather frightening. Short of a war, I see nothing that will prevent it from being equated to the two lesser events in a year or two.
20136. Åse - 9/11/2001 4:36:01 PM
> Incidentally, American and United must be absolutely shellshocked.
Oh, I believe that (ex-United worker here).
Wonder what on earth they will do.
20137. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:36:06 PM
Maybe if Hilliary flies over to Palestine and kisses Arafat's wife again, everything will be smoothed over.
Whaddya think?
20138. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:36:40 PM
CalGal,
Are you nuts? Manhattan is devastated as is Washington and you think people are going to forget about it and resist increased security??!!
20139. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:37:42 PM
MsNo,
I have often travelled on early flights East-West, and really, the count seems light. But it may just be the recession. I'll ask my dad later.
20140. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 4:37:48 PM
the exaggeration has already begun, Guiliani referring to this as the most heinous act in world history. This is bad, but really!
20141. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:38:58 PM
Good style point, thoughtful.
20142. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:40:27 PM
May I say how stylish you probably looked in your red shirt, FU?
20143. Raskolnikov - 9/11/2001 4:40:31 PM
Emotions are high, so cut people slack.
20144. Toenails - 9/11/2001 4:40:40 PM
What I think, concerned, is that you're an all-American asshole. This isn't about Hilary or Clinton. God! Get OFF it already!
And Jex is an even-bigger asshole, since he's busy attacking the current President, even before he's had any opportunity to act.
20145. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:40:43 PM
Thoughtful,
Really? Provide a short list of single acts that tally up.
Ase,
My dad works for American, now that I think of it, since they bought TWA. I know how TWA felt about flight 800, and it pales in comparison.
Jen,
No, I'm not nuts. I'm also not big into exclamation points.
20146. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:41:08 PM
Short of a war, I see nothing that will
prevent it from being equated to the two lesser
events in a year or two.
The only people I could imagine this of are the stay at homes and children.
20147. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:41:27 PM
Jen
Withing 2 weeks of increased airport security, the news stories regarding civil liberties, racial profiling, increased travel time, and poor airline response will outnumber stories including the by-then well-worn footage of the cascading World Trade Center 10 to 1.
20148. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 4:41:29 PM
Now we know NYC is in real shock...they've opened the whitestone and throgs neck bridge and are letting people through without paying tolls!
20149. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:42:49 PM
They'd never have dared do that if Robert Moses were alive, Thoughtful!
20150. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:44:18 PM
Re. 20144 -
But isn't it true that their policies have had a large impact in creating the current Mideast situation, unlike GWB's?
20151. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:45:01 PM
mgleason
If I do say so, I was precise, somber and lugubrious, all at the same time. I even stated, "At the risk of the hackneyed, my thought was that this was our generation's Pearl Harbor, with enemies unknown, but certainly not identifiable nations such as a Germany or Japan."
To which the interviewer said, "Hack-what?"
And the cameraman added that "Pearl Harbor" sucked and he didn't care what I said.
20152. Åse - 9/11/2001 4:46:12 PM
How are they going to come back? (The airlines).
I flew Pan Am to Sweden the first time I went back after moving to the US - this was a year or two after Lockerbie, and I was still working for United (they didn't fly there, so no flight bennies). They had all these security things in place that I wasn't used to, and haven't quite seen since (except when flying Northwestern out of Amsterdam this spring).
I have no idea if the disaster had any connection to their demise, though.
20153. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:46:39 PM
Well, that's because you should have said "at the risk of sounding hackneyed." Poor interviewer didn't understand the context.
20154. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:47:07 PM
All of the malls have been closed. My mom is locked in City Hall.
20155. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:48:06 PM
But I'm sure you looked good, FU.
20156. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:48:35 PM
I never risk sounding hackneyed. I either do it full bore or don't.
20157. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 4:49:10 PM
Why doesn't anyone mention Saddam?
20158. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:49:20 PM
mgleason
Your assuredness pleases me.
20159. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:50:35 PM
Ase,
I don't know that anything will ever outweigh the American dislike of inconvenience.
That said, heaven help the next folks who try to hijack a plane; I don't think the passengers will be accomodating.
20160. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:50:36 PM
I mentioned Iraq waaaaaayyyyyy upthread Pelle.
20161. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:50:59 PM
Francis,
I welcome tighter security at the airports and I think that people will understand the need for it. Granted there will always be weirdos like the ones who yelled at the woman in Seattle to jump simply because they were inconvenienced, but, I think that this is slightly different and people will be more patient.
20162. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:51:01 PM
they're
they're
they're
they're
sheesh
20163. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:51:07 PM
Re. 20157 -
He doesn't strike me as being insane enough to pull a stunt like that.
20164. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:51:14 PM
Damn. There were 40 fire companies before the second tower collapsed. Most are feared dead.
Fires are still burning in the area, and rescue workers waiting to go in.
20165. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 4:51:36 PM
Saddam.
There.
20166. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:52:00 PM
But "at the risk of the hackneyed" has no meaning, does it? One can either be it or sound it. But it's not a noun.
20167. Seamus - 9/11/2001 4:52:34 PM
Saddam
20168. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:53:00 PM
One other point.
When the retribution occurs, it almost has to be disappointing unless it has an identifiable head. Otherwise, it will be a throng of cruise missiles slamming into some baby food factory or some town or some military outpost.
That was what made the retaliation against Qaddafi so right. We killed his family and his shaggy ass was hiding under the desk like Bernard Shaw.
Bounty on Bin Laden. $10 million. $20 million with the head brought back.
And the decimation of his family, town, village, livestock and social circles.
Including his book club.
20169. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:53:13 PM
I welcome tighter security at the airports and I think that people will understand the need for it.
Past experience contradicts you. But as I said, we're in a recession so it will be a while before the protests start.
20170. Åse - 9/11/2001 4:53:52 PM
>I don't know that anything will ever outweigh the
American dislike of inconvenience.
I suspect that too.
Speaking of Saddam, wasn't a "US spy plane" (alleged) shot down over Iraq this morning? I think they talked about it on NPR right after "we have reports that an air plane has crashed into the world trade center" little blurb at the beginning of the news.
Not that I think these are necessarily connected.
20171. judithathome - 9/11/2001 4:54:31 PM
I know this is stupid of me to ask but is anyone else getting weird numbers at the top of the page when they refresh? Like "20156-20166 out of 20165"
20172. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:55:03 PM
When the retribution occurs, it almost has to be disappointing unless it has an identifiable head.
Well, it's not an original point. (g) I said the same thing. Americans were able to focus on McVeigh because he acted alone, or close to it.
20173. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:55:17 PM
Ase - Yeah, I saw that on the news, too. It was a drone plane.
20174. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:56:30 PM
About the DFLP, from Stratfor:
1515 GMT, 010911
The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) has reportedly claimed responsibility for the attacks on the World Trade Center. This report, from a television station in Abu Dhabi, in unconfirmed.
The DFLP was formed in 1969 with an estimated membership of 500. It was originally based in Syria, but the location of its current headquarters are unknown. The DFLP receives financial and military aid from Syria and Libya. It operates in Syria, Lebanon, Israel and the occupied territories. Its leader is Naif Hawatmeh, according to Israeli-based Interdisciplinary Center.
The group was largely dormant from 1988 until this summer, when it claimed responsibility for an Aug. 25 attack against an Israeli military post in the Gaza Strip that left three Israeli soldiers dead. This attack was the first instance of Palestinians successfully using conventional military-style tactics.
Before this year, DFLP operations have always taken place either inside Israel or the West Bank and Gaza. Typical acts include minor bombings and grenade attacks, as well as operations to seize hostages and attempts to negotiate the return of Israeli-held Palestinian prisoners.
The group split from the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) years ago, but reconciled with the PFLP -and with Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat - in August 1999.
The attacks differ significantly from the DFLP's previous methods of operation. Likewise, the resources and infrastructure necessary for such attacks are far beyond the group's traditional means. Either the DFLP's claims are spurious, or it has joined forces with other groups.
20175. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:57:08 PM
Jen
What you welcome is interesting, but not necessarily relevant. You are an attractive, patriotic, statist, blonde. You might welcome the scrutiny and the added fondling (as might the security guard).
But a bazillion fliers and harassed men of Middle-Eastern descent and Ron Kuby and Paul Wellstone and the entire panel of Court TV will not. Nor will CBS, CNN, ABC, NBC, or MSNBC, all of whom have to come up with post-calamity stories in their never-ending quest to flesh out important "style points."
20176. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 4:57:46 PM
Indy
Sorry. I barged right in when I came home without backtracking.
20177. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:58:11 PM
Of course it is an original point, as I only read my own posts.
20178. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:58:19 PM
Judith,
Might be because the posts are moving so quickly, but I've had a couple of glitches with "posts per page" as well. I'm set for 20, but I got defaulted to 50 a couple of times and had to reset it.
20179. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:59:18 PM
Nor will CBS, CNN, ABC, NBC, or MSNBC, all of whom have to come up with post-calamity stories in their never-ending quest to flesh out important "style points."
To say nothing of the fact that all the media folk are themselves frequent fliers and won't take kindly to delays.
20180. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:00:19 PM
When the retribution occurs, it almost has to be
disappointing unless it has an identifiable head.
Otherwise, it will be a throng of cruise missiles
slamming into some baby food factory or some town
or some military outpost.
The overuse of this type of 'retaliation' can be traced almost entirely to the last administration which used it numerous times to no effect. It is unimaginative and ineffective.
IOW, its primary aim was to temporarily divert the attention of the American public, for which reasons I won't state here at the risk of being unfairly called an 'asshole' again.
20181. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:01:26 PM
concerned
Please find your retarded brother.
20182. Seamus - 9/11/2001 5:01:33 PM
IJ,
I've looked but have been unable to find the source for that information I offered earlier. So, you may as well consider it spurious...as indeed most of my comments are.
20183. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:01:36 PM
Re. 20179 -
CalGal -
The convenience of the media and air travelers in general may well be indefinitely compromised by the legislation and regulations passed to increase security.
20184. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 5:01:51 PM
Someone on Free Republic is wondering whether Gary Condit will be able to attend the intelligence briefings.
20185. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 5:02:10 PM
I see this thing is already being trivialized into potential future delays at airports.
20186. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 5:03:13 PM
Seamus: I wasn't trying to question its accuracy. I just thought if details like that were becoming available then something about the hijackers themselves would be known soon as well.
20187. CalGal - 9/11/2001 5:03:29 PM
Francis,
Ah. Well, I was just taking a roundabout way of saying that I agreed with you, that the high likelihood of our only being able to snag a nameless hack or two increases the risk that we'll all move on and forget about it.
I wonder who will be caught?
"Yussuf--you are assigned to be captured and brought to trial." "No, no! I wanna go up in flames at the WTC!" "Sorry, Yussuf. But you'll fry eventually, and until then you'll have to suffer godless American television. It is a good way to die."
20188. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 5:03:37 PM
ABC has exclusive video of the second jet crashing into WTC from Trinity Church.
Unbelievable.
20189. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:04:20 PM
Pelle
Are you heaving sobs now, you supercilious scold?
20190. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:06:16 PM
Re. 20185 -
Blame CG for that, and worse.
20191. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:06:27 PM
If they do it right (i.e., let the media do their job and stuff the screaming mobs with chum until we draw a bead on the whole skeeving rabble and jelly-gas six generations in), we can all be happy.
20192. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:08:12 PM
And if concerned is correct and there are "legislation and regulations passed to increase security", that's a bonus.
20193. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 5:09:46 PM
Francis
Hahaha! (But how ashamed I am to laugh in these tragic circumstances)
20194. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:10:50 PM
Pelle
That's okay. Let it out.
20195. mgleason - 9/11/2001 5:12:09 PM
The President is en route to Washington, where he is to address the country tonight.
20196. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:15:44 PM
Good style move, that. Brian Williams will be reassured.
Adios.
20197. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:17:03 PM
What is the attitude of the US Socialist Party to this WTC/Pentagon disaster?
National security is not something that can be won by intimidation. Only peace with justice can be a secure peace. We will renew our own efforts to transform the United States into a country that has no enemies---not because our enemies have been vanquished, but because we are capable of getting along with our neighbors.
Don Doumakes
National Co-Chair
Socialist Party USA
Do I hear echoes of: 'Thank you, sir; can I have another?' in that?
20198. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 5:18:22 PM
You must be one of the 30,000 people in the country who watch MSNBC.
20199. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 5:18:28 PM
You must be one of the 30,000 people in the country who watch MSNBC.
20200. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:19:30 PM
...about this...
20201. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:21:46 PM
Just heard that US markets will be closed all week.
Not gonna forget that too soon.
20202. mgleason - 9/11/2001 5:22:08 PM
NBC has an unconfirmed report that an American flight attendant was on a cell phone with operations saying that the crew had been shot and another attendant stabbed when they lost contact with her.
20203. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:22:24 PM
or, could be closed all week (CYA)
20204. ronski - 9/11/2001 5:24:02 PM
If this hasn't been mentioned, bin Laden is officially denying involvement, but saying he supports actions like these.
It is also being suggested that he is not currently in Afghanistan.
20205. mgleason - 9/11/2001 5:25:12 PM
Another building, roughly twenty stories high, collapsed in the WTC complex.
20206. ronski - 9/11/2001 5:27:28 PM
That would be Bldg. Seven in the WTC complex, I believe. It had been hit by one of the collapsing towers.
20207. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 5:30:26 PM
A video of the second plane smashing into the WTC is available at CNN.
20208. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:31:00 PM
Building 7: 47 stories tall.
20209. mgleason - 9/11/2001 5:31:06 PM
Andrea Mitchell reports that there is evidence of Bin Laden's involvement, and that the US had warned the Taliban that they would be held personally responsible for any action on his part.
20210. Andonly - 9/11/2001 5:34:19 PM
Henry Kissinger to CNN: ''This is comparable to Pearl Harbor and we must have the same response and the people who did it must have the same end as the people who attacked Pearl Harbor.''
20211. ronski - 9/11/2001 5:35:18 PM
It was Seven, and it's gone.
20212. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:35:44 PM
I'm hearing reports of $3-$4 gasoline in some parts of the country, already.
Definitely negative effects on global markets.
20213. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 5:36:26 PM
Take him out, one way or the other.
1. We've wanted to do it for years.
2. World opinion will never be more on our side.
3. Whether he did this or not he would like to do it and has likely helped with such operations in the past.
4. If we don't and he pulls something like this in the future, then we're partly culpable.
5. If he didn't do it, it'll make those who did do it sleep less easily until we settle with them.
Assuming that not everyone involved is already dead, and I think that's probably a valid assumption.
20214. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 5:36:48 PM
Poor Henry. Hyping it up to get into the limelight again.
20215. Andonly - 9/11/2001 5:38:59 PM
Make no mistake: we have warplanes on the way to Afghanistan now, or possibly elsewhere. We're at war, folks, and nobody has realized it yet.
Ariel Sharon was just on TV saying the war against terrorism is a war of the free against "forces of darkness" and "forces of evil". He designated tomorrow a national day of mourning in Israel, pledged solidarity with the American people, and offered condolences to the victims of the attack.
20216. Jamie R - 9/11/2001 5:40:46 PM
Just wanted to say how impressed I am with this forum today. The dreck at the Rant is making me too ill to comment. Here's a sample:
As for the Palestinians, you can't really blame them. [for dancing over the deaths of innocents.] As far as they are concerned, the US is a big bully who deserves to be cut down a bit. And their view is not entirely unfounded. I agree, though, that they are not improving their position by open celebrations.
So nice to see such broadminded tolerance of differing viewpoints.
20217. ronski - 9/11/2001 5:42:09 PM
Fox is reporting that U.S. sources are saying there are signs pointing clearly to bin Laden, and that he has been training terrorists to fly jet planes in Afghanistan.
A professor from Bentley College on another network says it is also possible that the umbrella group in Afghanistan to which bin Laden is linked has a role.
Also, from Fox, that the actual pilots/terrorists could have been nationals from any number of countries.
20218. judithathome - 9/11/2001 5:44:40 PM
Just heard that Barbara Olson, on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, said they had knives and box cutters only, no guns...she called her husband on her cell phone before the crash.
20219. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:45:49 PM
It almost makes sense, given these hijackings and their results, to mandate 'fly by wire' commercial passenger aircraft in the future, where all cockpit control could be overriden by ground control if necessary.
This may ultimately be the most straightforward way to completely avoid future incidents such as the WTC/Pentagon terrorist attacks.
20220. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:48:13 PM
Re. 20218 -
That's actually positive news, in a way. Knives and box cutters on board an aircraft would be much
simpler to circumvent, in the future, than firearms.
20221. Slackjaw - 9/11/2001 5:51:30 PM
where all cockpit control could be overriden by ground control if necessary
Sounds like a great reason to storm an ATC tower, for the megalomaniacal terrorist group on your block.
20222. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 5:56:18 PM
I said, three or four persons, very dissimilar, in commercial class (forward section of the aircraft), using knives (anything but the guns some believe without which violence and force are impossible), one of whom can guide the plane to its target. One man - the pilot - gets up after the seatbuckle lights go off and goes into the bathrooms directly behind the cockpit; the others wait until the flight attendants go to the cockpit and open the door to deliver those cokes and meals to the flight crew. One or maybe two storm the cockpit, immediately killing the pilot and copilot (no conversation, no demands, just kill or incapacitate), then the "pilot" comes out of the bathroom and into the control seat as the attackers now stand guard over the entrance to the cockpit. They tell the passengers to sit down, be calm, the plane will land as soon as possible.
20223. AceofSpades - 9/11/2001 5:57:18 PM
Don't be assholes. Were the german people responsible for Hitler? Of course they fucking were. According to your faggy moralizing, we shouldn't have killed German soldiers or civilians, but ONLY Hitler and the German High Command.
A people get the goverment it deserves, and a people are responsible for the actions of its government.
Afganistan has been harboring bin Laden for ten years. Its citizens are complicit.
988. AceofSpades - 9/11/01 10:54:07 PM
This is war. You do not fight a war with "investigation," with the FBI, with trials, with "evidence." You fight a war by destroying enemy states who have attacked you.
This is war. This is not law enforcement.
Clinton embraced the law enforcement model for eight fucking years. It doesn't work.
This is war.
In war, cities get leveled. There are no trials. There are bombings. There are no jail sentences. There are assassinations.
989. AceofSpades - 9/11/01 10:56:36 PM
Incidentally, I'm suuuuuuure all those partying, clapping, singing maniacs in hebron, Cairo, Beirut, and Baghdad don't support terrorists, or give them safe harbor, or make donations to them, or get them clean passports when needed, etc.
Yuhp. Sure, they clap and sing about 10,000 murdered Americans. But they don't actually support such terrorism. Oh, no.
20224. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:58:23 PM
Re. 20221-
Not at all. Control can be switched between control towers, or even alternate sites, given the available technology of encryption, GPDs, etc. Authorization could also be restricted for such overrides to make it essentially impossible for random bandits to access it.
20225. Andonly - 9/11/2001 5:59:05 PM
Pelle: Kissinger has merely expressed what the American people feel, or will feel, when the shock wears off.
And incidentally, I have spent half the day trying to ascertain whether four people on my block alone, and two friends visiting from Dallas, were alive or dead. All are fine, but at least three would not have been but for little twists of fate. So--not to put too fine a point on it--I, for one, am not interested in reading more of your ever-so-arch remarks on this subject, at this particular point in time.
20226. Slackjaw - 9/11/2001 6:00:32 PM
"Yes, but this system really is fool proof."
20227. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:03:26 PM
Go to CNN to see Kabul being strafed by someone....
20228. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:03:50 PM
Bombings in Kabul..probably missles from Arabian Sea or Indian Ocean.
20229. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:05:07 PM
The reporter is saying it sounds like missles coming in...big fire at one point. Tracer bullets in retaliation.
20230. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:05:44 PM
Fuel depot seems to be hit.
20231. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:06:05 PM
Longer flights could also be required to have their 'galley cook' be trained and armed with such devices as would be efficacious in taking out knife and box cutter wielding scum.
20232. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 6:06:17 PM
Andonly
I couldn't care less about what you care to read or not. What I post here is not a function of your preferences. Am I making myself clear?
20233. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 6:07:10 PM
Off in search of a television set.
20234. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:07:50 PM
They may have come from warships and maybe US. But had to go through airspace of Pakistan, which means the President/General of Pakistan would haved to agree, no doubt. Regarless of what he might say later.
20235. Andonly - 9/11/2001 6:07:53 PM
It has begun. We are bombing Kabul.
20236. ronski - 9/11/2001 6:08:43 PM
Well that is interesting.
20237. Andonly - 9/11/2001 6:09:43 PM
Pelle: fuck yourself. Am I making myself clear?
20238. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:09:47 PM
CNN reports that the the explosions in Kabul seem to be indicative of cruise missiles.
20239. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:10:00 PM
Re. 20235 -
Who are 'we', precisely?
20240. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:11:12 PM
This is rich; the Taliban calling it state-sponsored terrorism.
20241. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:11:13 PM
It's on.
20242. ronski - 9/11/2001 6:12:07 PM
Has it been confirmed as actual retaliation? CNN is not saying so.
20243. ronski - 9/11/2001 6:12:28 PM
Nor are they saying it is surely from the U.S.
20244. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:13:16 PM
Who knows who "we" are, but it seems a bit too coincidental. I doubt Hatch et al, really think it is civil war in Afghanistan that just happened tonight.
20245. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:14:07 PM
Andrea Mitchell says her sources in the intelligence community tell her that it is NOT the US, but Afghan dissidents within Kabul.
20246. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:14:40 PM
They think it's an ammo dump that has been hit and no one is claiming it's the USA....
20247. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:15:37 PM
And of course, there is the old standby - no ready access between the passenger and pilot compartments between liftoff and landing enforced with secure bulkheads.
20248. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:20:15 PM
But, the dissidents have not attacked like that in years. This sort of attack within Kabul? These appear to be incoming.
20249. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:23:00 PM
It's messed up, Absensia. This isn't the end.
20250. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:24:40 PM
Now, if people will note, I've offered three real world solutions, any one alone of which would be efficacious in preventing such terrorist attacks as have happened this morning at the WTC/Pentagon.
20251. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:25:09 PM
Very true, mgleason. And that's what scares me.
And who knows if we will ever really know what or who happened.
20252. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:27:11 PM
, I've offered three real world solutions
And very sensible they were, concerned.
20253. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:27:46 PM
The Beeb says that an Afghan opposition leader was attacked yesterday; the explosions could be timely retaliation, taking advantage of what must be general confusion.
Now the Solomon Bros. building has also collapsed in NY.
20254. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:27:47 PM
Thanks:)
20255. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 6:28:12 PM
Absensia, you haven't noticed, Afghanistan is already in a state of civil war. The leader of the opposition, Ahmed Shah Massud, was recently the victim of an assassination attempt. The theatre of operations for the civil war is Panjshir Valley, not far from Kabul itself.
Those explosions in Kabul likely have nothing to do with the USA.
20256. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:28:36 PM
My last was regarding 20252, of course.
20257. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:29:05 PM
At another forum I was reading, they are speculating that it's us attacking and that GW will announce it in his speech; they are saying that is why he was at Offet SAC base today...
20258. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 6:32:56 PM
I also would not assume those explosions in Kabul are by the US. What the hell would we be attacking? The Kabul Disinformation & Religiosity Building?
Any response by the US must, must, be measured and absolutely accurate as immediately afterwards the President must explain to the world towards whom the attack was made and on what grounds.
20259. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 6:34:18 PM
The President was at the SAC base because that it the very place deep within the mountains of Colorado where he would hole up in case of nuclear attack - the safest place on this planet.
20260. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 6:35:57 PM
Aren't those idiots in Kabul still threatening to hang eight foreigners, including two American women, for proselytizing?
Isn't that reason enough to level 'em?
20261. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:36:10 PM
Pseud...I have noticed a lot...Massud was reported as being killed by a car bomb...since when has the Talaban done that? And cruise missles, from within? You many be right but there have been no attacks on Kabul in years.
We shall see. Frankly, I am not taking anything "politicians" say. And, I hope you are right, and I am wrong.
20262. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:36:58 PM
Easy there, EC. Diversity, you know.
20263. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:39:14 PM
I know - warped sense of humor.
20264. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:40:07 PM
Me, I mean.
20265. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 6:43:29 PM
Concerned:
Yeah, but the US gov't is just itching for it to be bin Laden not just so they can take him out, but also as a solid pretext to get rid of the Taliban. They're first-rate nutjobs, and between grinding the country further into the dirt, victimizing their own people, and pissing off the neighbors, they're asking for it.
20266. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 6:44:25 PM
As for the warped sense of humor, obviously I'm in that boat too.
20267. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:45:44 PM
Anybody see this before?
Taliban slammed over bin Laden appointment
MOSCOW, Aug. 30 (UPI) -- Russia's Foreign Ministry on Thursday condemned the appointment of Saudi terrorism suspect Osama bin Laden as the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Afghanistan's ruling Taliban regime, the official RIA Novosti news agency reported.
Bin Laden's appointment confirmed that a center of international terrorism is being set up in Taliban-controlled territory, the ministry said in a statement.
"Pseudo-religious values are being used as a cover to prepare a bridgehead for expansion of militant extremism and separatism far beyond the region's borders," added the statement.
This month, Russian media quoted Pakistan's Nation daily as saying that the Taliban had named bin Laden commander of their troops. Afghanistan's civil war concerns the Kremlin as hundreds of Russian border guards monitor the Afghan-Tajik border and a potential spill of violence could plunge the whole region into chaos.
20268. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:47:26 PM
Moreover, the Taliban's aim to build an orthodox Islamic state has given rise to many Islamic extremist movements in the former Soviet republics in Central Asia. In recent years, Islamic insurgents from Afghanistan launched raids on Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
The Taliban's ongoing clashes with the Northern Alliance movement backing ousted President Burhanuddin Rabbani -- the leader of the government general recognized by international organizations -- have alerted Russia and its partners as arms smuggling, drug trafficking, kidnapping and other crimes have flourished along the Afghan-Tajik border.
On Thursday, Moscow also condemned the appointment of Juma Namangani as bin Laden's deputy. Namangani, an ethnic Uzbek, was liked to a number of raids on Kyrgyzstan's Batken district over the last three years. Namangani advocates creation of an Islamic state run by a regime similar to the Taliban's and spreading over Central Asia.
"Incorporation of the international terrorists' leaders into the ruling structures of the Taliban shows the need to take decisive measures to collectively counter global challenges that are put forward from the Taliban-controlled territory," said the statement.
-- Copyright 2001 by United Press International.
All rights reserved.
So, can we expect to see the reinstitution of good old Central Asian customs such as feeding decrepit oldsters to mastiffs, playing polo with human heads, etc.?
20269. Andonly - 9/11/2001 6:49:28 PM
Concerned: your 20239--yes, good question. I just heard on CNN that the explosions in Kabul were not US military action.
20270. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:50:00 PM
And, if that happened, Cartman, the US might be able to have a strong military base close to China.
20271. CalGal - 9/11/2001 6:52:47 PM
Jamie,
I missed that. I was struck by the people who thought Bush had caused this.
20272. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:53:04 PM
Rumsfeld just categorically stated the explosions in Kabul were not from us.
20273. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 6:53:12 PM
Absensia:
I thought that was why we have Okinawa and Guam.
20274. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 6:57:10 PM
Eric,
Okinawa and Guam don't cover India and Pakistan.. The two recent Atomic powers with a potential of using it.
20275. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:58:57 PM
EricCartman,
Can never have too many close bases, and isn't the Afghanistan location better?
20276. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:00:57 PM
The strategic position of Afghanistan is much more important with Russia, Iran, Pakistan, India, China and the oil bearing central asian republics in sight.
20277. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:04:28 PM
Khargosh:
Well, I was being somewhat facetious. Absensia implied that, since we need to "keep an eye" on China, that occupying Afghanistan might have some utility in that regard. But that's why we have Japan, Taiwan, and S. Korea in our back pocket.
Not that we'd ever screw up the nerve to actually do anything about China in the first place. Hell, everyone's too damned scared to even deny them the Olympics.
As for India and Pakistan, please. They can't even conquer each other, with or without nukes. India's best offense might well be encouraging its innumerable citizens to vote with their feet.
Now that you mention it, though, the acquisition of nukes by those two countries was also a huge lapse on the part of our $40 billion per year intelligence community.
20278. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:06:53 PM
Absensia:
Yes, I would think that having a military presence in Afghanistan would be better utilized by keeping an eye on our oil fields....er, uh, I mean the Azeri oil fields. Wouldn't want Ivan getting any bright ideas about the proposed pipeline to Ceyhan, now would we?
20279. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:07:12 PM
I hope we have not acted immediately, not out of some namby-pamby fear of upsetting the world's chieftains, but because it will be rushed and thus minimalist (fuel depot? Oh please), and at a time when those who may be responsible would best be able to assign the attack to rash judgment.
We should wait, have the case prepared, and then, in weeks, or even months, strike with when the time is opportune, we will have our brief to the world prepared, and the actions will be mammoth and unprecednted in the annals of retributive strikes.
In any fight, when you strike in anger, you lunge like a fool and rarely hit your mark. You may feel better, but you do little damage. But if you can know that your prey is coming down the street at 6:05 pm and you await around the corner with a 2x4, and a pre-printed statement demonstrating the evidence of the foul deeds of your enemy, it is a better end.
Patience. We are at war, but that doesn't mean we need act half-cocked.
20280. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:08:00 PM
If it's Bin Laden, and he's the Taliban's military chief, I say let's given them 48 hours to produce him in irons and surrender. If they don't, we can re-landscape the Pathan yurt disease.
20281. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:08:46 PM
Good point, Urkel. Let's wait until we're fully cocked.
20282. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:09:16 PM
Well, "keeping an eye" was a light way of putting it, but I think a military base in Afghanistan might be "just swell."
BTW, India is considering giving away a lot of cheap tvs to its people so they watch that at night, instead of procreating. CNN...all the news..all the time.
20283. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:09:24 PM
I can't believe it's us. If we're going to go off halfcocked, it will be to blow some country into an ash-heap, and to the extent that we think about that first, so much the better. But I can't believe that we'd rush to bomb a depot.
20284. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:11:29 PM
A depot is exactly what we'd rush to bomb. It has the trappings of doing something, but it is a harmless thing. Fortunately, I understand that Rumsfeld has stated that we have done no such thing.
Cart is correct. This is a job for a deliberative and full cock.
20285. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:12:23 PM
It wasn't us. I'm fairly sure that the Defense Department is telling the truth.
20286. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:12:41 PM
"Our oil fields" does have a certain ring to it. The Afghan rebels are now claiming they did the bombings. Good!
20287. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:13:18 PM
No, that's silly. We would never rush to bomb a depot after this kind of tragedy. Even were the military advisors asinine enough to suggest it, there isn't a politician in the world who would approve it.
20288. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:14:00 PM
Re. 20284 -
So, FU: are you a lover or a fighter?
20289. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:14:14 PM
How many weapons do you need to kill thousands of American civilians in about an hour?
Answer: None.
20290. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:14:45 PM
Cart is correct. This is a job for a deliberative and full cock.
Yes, and since I'm busy at the moment, I nominate Ron Jeremy for the job.(hyuck hyuck)
20291. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:16:02 PM
"We" have in the past.
20292. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:17:05 PM
Cart
The deeds of the Taliban might very well merit importation of Mr. Jeremy.
20293. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:17:08 PM
Depots have always been a prime target for attacks...all those arms and explosives just ready to go off.
20294. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:17:40 PM
And trains. Lots of trains.
20295. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:18:01 PM
Francis,
"We" have bombed a depot because of an assault on our shores that killed thousands of people? I must have missed that news cycle.
20296. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:18:10 PM
WTF is Ron Jeremy?
20297. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:19:33 PM
Cal
Apparently. So.
concerned
A porn legend with a cock the size of a baby food factory.
20298. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:20:01 PM
Sigh. That's not my point. I am merely saying that if the US has finally come to its senses and started to treat terrorism as an act of war, rather than as a criminal activity, they will not be rushing off to bomb a depot. Not as a response. As a tactical maneuver, as a quick way to stop some critical activity, fine. But not as a response.
20299. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:20:18 PM
Always the trains. If the trains don't leave on time, the country is ours.
Cal, I meant war in general, not this. And I hope it is not the US.
20300. judithathome - 9/11/2001 7:21:09 PM
Well, they haven't done that...have they? Donald Rumsfeld said we haven't so that's that.
20301. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:21:57 PM
If so, I shall be most depressed.
Francis,
I presume you were being sarcastic? So what does it matter if we've bombed a depot in the past as a response, if we are all agreed that the US government perceives this as exponentially worse?
20302. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:22:11 PM
Re. 20299 -
I'm glad to say that your hopes are not in vain.
20303. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:22:39 PM
A solid, prudent decision. Let us pick up the pieces, and pick our spot. Geraldo will stem the bloodlust in the interim.
Except for LucAce Brazi. Even I can't call him off.
20304. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:22:59 PM
Judith,
I know. But Francis was implying that the US could have done it, that it's the sort of thing they've done in the past.
20305. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:23:20 PM
Now, if were C*******, bombing the depot would be exactly the thing I'd expect.
20306. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:23:46 PM
Do we really need all this information from cabinet memebers? Probably, but who is listening?
20307. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:24:06 PM
But, thank god, GWB is not C********.
20308. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:25:49 PM
In 1965, the last time the Pentagon and the World Trade Center was decimated by hijacked planes, we responded immediately with a surgical strike on a fuel depot.
No lie.
20309. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:27:06 PM
Oh no, I spoke too soon, now members of the House are talking....poor Geraldo, he can never compete with this.
20310. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:28:20 PM
Nope, it really doesn't seem as if "we", meaning myself and the aforementioned Mr. Jeremy of course, are bombing Kabul after all. If it were "us", the city would be leveled by now. Better yet, "we" would be strafing the rural areas where bin Laden's training camps are located.
It's not us yet, but it soon will be. I disagree with Urkel that we will wait and methodically strike when the moment is perfect, weeks down the road. Amid the incessant media navel-gazing we all expect, an actual number will surface very soon. The body count. It will be enormous, and Americans will not want to be patient once they hear that number.
20311. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:31:06 PM
Re. 20310 -
True. Nothing remotely like that since Vietnam, wrt body count.
20312. mgleason - 9/11/2001 7:31:15 PM
I love to see these politicians chasing 'face time' after scurrying back from their safe houses.
20313. wonkers2 - 9/11/2001 7:31:36 PM
By the way Pelle where was your daddy during the war? Which side was he on? [WWII that is.]
20314. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:32:42 PM
Francis,
How many people died?
20315. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:34:30 PM
Eric,
I agree. If we're going to retaliate, it will be soon and my hope is any fussing is due to the severity of the attack.
It is possible that we won't retaliate at all, and treat it as a criminal matter.
20316. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:35:49 PM
Cartman
Every effort must be to waiting, to resisting the impulse for instant gratification. I agree that some public and political pressure will be brought to bear. But I have faith that the resilience of the nation, its enormous size and ability to "move on", and the three-card monty of the press, which sucks simple context out of the most unambiguous efforts, will give us that time.
And if we wait for the roaches to feel comfortable in alighting from their hovels, and if we prepare in such a manner as to murder every roach, and all the right roaches, and if our evidence of roach activity is unimpeachable, we will have strengthened the hand of American foreign policy -and we will have sated appetites for revenge for a much longer period of time.
For the roach will know that the hammer falls harder every day it is delayed.
Bin Laden planned his strike for some time, and look at how effective it ended up.
Thank you, and God bless you all.
20317. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:37:44 PM
Great. Urkel's road-testing his new speech while he runs for Prince George County dog-catcher. The mind wobbles.
20318. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:40:12 PM
Easy, you Chomskyite whatever-else pseudo calls you fucknut. Just because you can't wait until the popshot doesn't mean you have to ruin the movie for the rest of us.
20319. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:40:21 PM
Hmmm, Madeline Albright agrees with FU.
20320. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:41:09 PM
Sue she does. I nailed her.
20321. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:42:33 PM
Bin Laden had years to prepare without public scrutiny--or, apparently, even covert scrutiny. He is not running a country in his spare time, nor is he dealing with a media and an outraged public that not only will want to know everything, but will openly discuss every option that comes to mind, nor is he dealing with experts who will comment on all the possibilities he has to consider and rate them in terms of effectivness so that his target can be prepared. Bin Laden can kill anyone of his people on a whim, much less for betrayal, Bush could only ever kill the occasional Texan for murder.
Exactly how is it that you consider these situations analogous?
20322. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:43:59 PM
You mean, Bin Laden and Bush aren't exactly analagous? Get out. That's incredible! I thought they were peas in a pod.
20323. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 7:45:15 PM
Who gives a damn if Americans are impatient for retaliation after hearing the body count? It is the US military, intelligence services and administration who will act, not the body politic. And I don't believe they'll be impatient. No, contrary to the festering in this thread about impatience and looting and a general disregard for the general public that general public seems to be collected, angry but cool, and fully allowing the authorities time to clear this up and mark direction, nothwithstanding the stupid questions of some few newsreporters which often disgust the viewing public.
20324. MaxMacks - 9/11/2001 7:47:03 PM
just saw Bush on TV for first time.
this thing is WAY OVER HIS HEAD...
he looked like a deer caught in the HEADLIGHTS
of a truck at night....
20325. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:47:06 PM
Urkel:
But won't all this hoo-ha distract Bush from he really should be doing, besides improving his Crash Bandicoot scores -- annexing Mexico?
20326. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:47:32 PM
Scott
Well said, but don't denigrate the reporters. They are useful to delay and mute the more hasty tendencies of the public, as "Day of Terror" becomes "Aftermath of Terror: Day 34".
20327. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 7:48:12 PM
Chomskyite scum Cartman:
Armenia and Azerbaijan were at war during the first half of the 1990s. They are still officially at war.
The USA sided with Armenia, a commercially and economically worthless country, against Azerbaijan, a country which plays host to dozens of American multinationals prospecting for, and transporting, oil and gas in the Caspian Sea region. The US Congress imposed comprehensive sanctions on trade and aid to Azerbaijan.
This doesn't exactly sort with nincompoop Chomskyite worldview that US foreign policy is dictated by corporate interests, does it?
20328. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 7:48:53 PM
20277 Eric,
Well you and everybody else knows it very well that strategic positions are not acquired necessarily to defeat some country. Sometimes you have an apparent conflict of interests or an apparent enimity and sometimes just to keep an eye on the affairs and to let others know who's the boss. No matter Pakistan and India can "conquer" eachother or not, they still remain a nuclear flash point and an "eye" must be kept on them.....not to foget the others such as China, the central asia and Iran.
By the way I dont think Afghanistan can conquer USA either , now can she?
20329. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:48:54 PM
Francis,
Hey, dude, you were the one who said: Bin Laden planned his strike for some time, and look at how effective it ended up.
as the reason why Bush should wait. So don't kvetch at me.
Scott,
I don't think it needs to be tomorrow. But for any number of reasons it should be soon. Not least of which is that the time in which Americans will be willing to do whatever it takes is fairly limited. We have a short attention span. I also think the possibility of the government's every option being openly assessed and discussed on air is entirely feasible.
20330. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:49:11 PM
Who gives a damn if Americans are impatient for retaliation after hearing the body count?
I'm sure Zogby is already vetting the poll results. Wait and watch, Loar. Soon as an official number comes out, there will be a demand for someone's head.
Unless, of course, Love Cruise can keep enough mouth-breathers pre-occupied....
20331. MaxMacks - 9/11/2001 7:49:33 PM
i never watch much TV.
reporters sound almost gleeful when there is some great calamity to talk about
mostly they make guesses and spread false rumors.
20332. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:49:39 PM
Eric
Not at all. If all goes to my recommendation, the pros will collect the evidence, select the day, gather the intelligence and recommend the retaliation. And Bush will assent, with his own addition of doubling the punch of that retaliation.
Collaborative government at its best.
20333. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:49:46 PM
RE. 20321 -
Calgal is obviously confusing GWB with her idol Clowntoon who had the occasional Arkansan offed, according to some.
20334. Andonly - 9/11/2001 7:50:11 PM
The Afghan Northern Alliance has claimed responsibility for the attack in Kabul.
If they did indeed have cruise missiles...that's interesting.
20335. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:51:50 PM
Cart
The last administration has made you cynical. One more crime to add.
Where is the carefree, boyish Cart?
Damn you, Bill Clinton! Damn you to hell!
20336. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:54:06 PM
Nattering douchebag Psuede-o:
Armenia and Azerbaijan were at war during the first half of the 1990s. They are still officially at war.
So are Russia and Japan, I understand. So what? What has been the recent state of the war? Not much, right?
The US Congress imposed comprehensive sanctions on trade and aid to Azerbaijan.
Ah. Cutting the lucrative Azeri-American market out of the loop. That'll teach 'em.
This doesn't exactly sort with nincompoop Chomskyite worldview that US foreign policy is dictated by corporate interests, does it?
Are you seriously proposing that that is not the usual case?
20337. arkymalarky - 9/11/2001 7:55:59 PM
Message # 20323
Hear hear.
20338. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:56:27 PM
Frances:
The last administration has made you cynical.
No. Blame "reality" TV. They've made me wait too long to watch Wheel of Fortune rejects get hunted and eaten by the Masai. I just can't waits no longer, I tells ya!
20339. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:56:35 PM
Isn't it natural that a nation would be more predisposed to nations with whom it has common corporate economic relations?
20340. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 7:58:16 PM
The popular belief is that the Afghan Northern Alliance is backed by the "West". If we believe that, it could be possible that this attack was under "orders" to see public response in case of a US retaliation attack. Remember that the president has still to speak in less than an hour now.
20341. mgleason - 9/11/2001 7:59:48 PM
Over 250 fire-fighters are being reported dead by their union, and 78 police missing.
20342. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:00:01 PM
Message # 20336
Armenia and Azerbaijan had an all-out, quite bloody war over Nagorno-Karabakh. A piece of shit war over a piece of shit territory, but it was a real war, unlike the rather peaceful "state of war" between Russia and Japan.
Ah. Cutting the lucrative Azeri-American market out of the loop. That'll teach 'em.
Azerbaijan contains more lucrative business opportunities for US multinational corporations than all of Central America and the Caribbean combined. Yet you should Chomskyite idiots have no problem believing that US policies in those countries are motivated by business interests.
Are you seriously proposing that [US foreign policy is not dictated by corporate interests]?
Of course. Suggesting? I have had long arguments with you in the past on this very question, in which I stated explicitly that US foreign policy is not so motivated. But then no country's interests are purely motivated by commercial considerations.
Hundreds of billions of dollars were spent in the Vietnam war to make Vietnam, a market of subsistence peasants, safe for American products?
The US now trades with Vietnam and China but doesn't with Cuba, which is doing business with everyone except the one country for whom business supposedly comes before all?
The USA supports Israel against the Arabs, even though siding with the Arabs clearly makes more sense economically than siding with Israel. Western Europe was not victimised by the Arab oil embargo. The USA was.
Then there's Armenia and Azerbaijan.
The dumbfuck Chomskyite view is fundamentally at variance with the facts and the norms of state behaviour.
20343. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:01:30 PM
Khabees
To see what "public response"? If the president ordered mass disembowling of those who lay on Afghan rugs, he would receive a favorable public response at this moment.
I find it unlikely that President Bush, who needs as much time with prepared text as possible, is waiting for the numbers on the bombing of a depot by the ANA, before he sets the nation's sail.
20344. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:02:19 PM
(drums fingers on table, waiting for the inevitable table demonstrating beyond a doubt how Amero-Azerio trade deficits have nearly quintupled since the dreaded trade sanctions, and how they account for nearly 3.141579% of Azerbaijan's GDP....)
20345. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:06:51 PM
Cartman's bravado becomes ever more pathetic as his Chomskyite world view is deconstructed and confuted before his eyes.
20346. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:08:21 PM
A piece of shit war over a piece of shit territory [Nagorno-Karabakh], but it was a real war, unlike the rather peaceful "state of war" between Russia and Japan.
Yes, but as you say, early 1990s. What has taken place recently, say, in the past five years?
Azerbaijan contains more lucrative business opportunities for US multinational corporations than all of Central America and the Caribbean combined.
True. Again though, what real effect have the trade sanctions had on the Azeri economy? Somewhere between slim and none, I'll wager. Maybe I missed it, but I sure as hell don't recall Chevron being told to pull up stakes and leave Baku in the hands of Gazprom.
I have had long arguments with you in the past on this very question, in which I stated explicitly that US foreign policy is not so motivated. But then no country's interests are purely motivated by commercial considerations.
Yes, and that's why I pointedly quantified it as usual. I agree that policies in Vietnam and Cuba have been motivated by more than mere commerce, but that doesn't mean those policies were merely pure misguided ideology, either.
20347. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:09:50 PM
Cartman's bravado becomes ever more pathetic as his Chomskyite world view is deconstructed and confuted before his eyes.
Well, ya got me there, cowboy.
20348. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:10:55 PM
Francis,
By public I didnt specifically mean the American public, I also included the other nations, The aliies, which some official( I don't remember who he was) mentioned and asked for Support and back ....now don't start saying that America doesnt care what others say and its not answerable to anybody or that the rest of the world doesn't matter. Despite America's position and the status, you can't exclude the importance of a response by the rest of the world in case of an attack.
20349. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:13:33 PM
Cartman, what difference does it make what has been happening since the ceasefire was declared? And what difference does it make what real effects the sanctions have had? The fact is, US policy was tilted against the interests of its own corporations.
20350. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:15:07 PM
If the USA had supported Azerbaijan, Chomsky and Chomtman would have known all about the US support for the evil Haider regime in Baku. But since the facts went against their prejudices, they were silent.
20351. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:15:31 PM
Haider Aliyev regime
20352. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:15:34 PM
Despite America's position and the status, you can't exclude the importance of a response by the rest of the world in case of an attack.
Well, the French have declared that they are behind us, so I feel safe in saying that we can now proceed with confidence and impunity.
20353. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:17:55 PM
Khabees
It is my understanding that under the short but barbaric reign of George W. Bush, the United States has become a unilateralist menace, uninterested and undeterred by the opinions of Swedes, Laotians, Macedonians, and others of their ilk.
While this view may be hyperbolic, I remain confident that the public reaction of the rest of the world is far down on the list of priorities for this Administration, at this time, and even if it were high on such a list, the use of an ANA attack on a fuel depot would be a poor vehicle to gauge international public opinion on American retribution.
20354. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:18:23 PM
Yeah, well, just wait until we have to fly over their airspace.
20355. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:19:55 PM
I yield the balance of my time to the right honourable Maria Gleason of Derby.
20356. Raskolnikov - 9/11/2001 8:20:10 PM
Cartman: Look at a map. Any serious effort against the likely suspects is going to require having some allies, and world sympathy, unless we want to stir up a larget hornet's nest. I hope GW will learn from his father about how to be a multilateralist.
20357. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:20:19 PM
Eric,
Good !! Keep us updated with the other countires.
And whom do you want to attack?...Bin laden ? You don't even know for sure where he is !!
20358. amax - 9/11/2001 8:23:01 PM
From a chomskyite friend:
Just writing to be sure everyone is safe and sane after the terrorist
attacks today. This is one of the most devastating and surreal events
I
have experienced. It seems that strange days are upon us.
In a local school here in Berkeley, one of our worker's 14-year old son
called and said all the kids were beating up the "Arab kids." In the
aftermath of this attack, it seems like there is great danger in the
days
ahead, and I sure hope that cool and thoughtful heads will prevail.
Take care everyone. Please let me know that you are all OK.
20359. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:23:38 PM
Rask
I do not believe world sympathy will be much of a factor, nor should it be. When we act, if we act as we should, many an innocent baby and mother will be incinerated. This will create sympathy for the targets, and the same hornets will always buzz about to the tut-tuts of Kofi Annan.
Your point as to strategic partnerships is better taken.
20360. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:23:40 PM
Many thanks, FU. I shall read the Wife of Bath's tale into the record.
20361. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:24:54 PM
As you please. Let the record reflect the Wife of Bath's tale, as read by the oh so right and oh so honourable Maria Gleason of Derby.
20362. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:25:06 PM
Rask,
You are right. For a formal attack, Us will need allies, there is no land access and US will need other countires' air space to fly over in case of an air attack
20363. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:26:21 PM
Cartman, what difference does it make what has been happening since the ceasefire was declared? And what difference does it make what real effects the sanctions have had? The fact is, US policy was tilted against the interests of its own corporations.
Um, it makes a big difference, goofball. On the first question, if hostilities have indeed ceased since the declaration of ceasefire, then the state of war, like Russia-Japan, is merely diplomatic semantics.
On the second question, if the sanctions had no teeth to them, or if there was little trade to sanction in the first place, then it's just more convenient semantics.
Look, we (the US) also lecture endlessly about how committed to human rights we are, yet we coddle and cater to China, we're a billion or so into Plan Colombia, even though the State Dept. has excoriated the gov't there for murdering its own citizens. Not to mention plenty of various CIA ops and policies over the last half-century that stand in stark contradiction to our stated policies.
Words mean little if actions don't jibe with them.
"Chomtman"....you make that one up all by yourself? Nice try. You can go on and on about Chomsky all you like, but I have told you this time and again -- I disagree with a great deal of what Chomsky has said in the past. It's mainly in his assessment of the mainstream media as spokestool for the money/power class that he spot on.
20364. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 8:26:34 PM
Why the towers collapsed 
Time for the President.
20366. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:32:05 PM
Message # 20363
Um, it makes a big difference, goofball. On the first question, if hostilities have indeed ceased since the declaration of ceasefire, then the state of war, like Russia-Japan, is merely diplomatic semantics. On the second question, if the sanctions had no teeth to them, or if there was little trade to sanction in the first place, then it's just more convenient semantics.
Hardly diplomatic semantics. The US embargo helped Armenia win the war.
Sanctions had plenty of teeth. Arms for Armenia, none for Azerbaijan (which was faced with a Russian embargo as well). Plenty of economic, food and other non-military aid flowing to Armenia, particularly with Armenian-Americans like Cher raising millions for Azerbaijan, while Azerbaijan could count only on Turkey for solid support abroad.
Look, we (the US) also lecture endlessly about how committed to human rights we are, yet we coddle and cater to China, we're a billion or so into Plan Colombia, even though the State Dept. has excoriated the gov't there for murdering its own citizens. Not to mention plenty of various CIA ops and policies over the last half-century that stand in stark contradiction to our stated policies. Words mean little if actions don't jibe with them.
That's very nice, but irrelevant to the corporate interests theory of foreign policy determination.
I disagree with a great deal of what Chomsky has said in the past. It's mainly in his assessment of the mainstream media as spokestool for the money/power class that he spot on.
In your babbling about death squads, corporate interests, and such stuff, you are Chomsky lite. Face it. Embrace it. Live with it.
20367. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:34:31 PM
Style point.
He flubbed a word and his tie is too blue.
Tim?
20368. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:35:24 PM
He is reading from a telepromptor.
20369. iiibbb - 9/11/2001 8:35:49 PM
20324. MaxMacks - 9/12/01 12:47:03 AM
just saw Bush on TV for first time.
this thing is WAY OVER HIS HEAD...
he looked like a deer caught in the HEADLIGHTS
of a truck at night....
Who wouldn't be in way over their head? Please tell me how president Gore would have solved this problem in 8 hrs or less?
20370. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:37:07 PM
In your babbling about death squads, corporate interests, and such stuff, you are Chomsky lite. Face it. Embrace it. Live with it.
Okey-fine. And we've never bankrolled or encouraged any death squads, nor have we ever made policy by placing money over people or moral principle. If you say so.
Isn't this about the time you begin lecturing me on how Chilean stadium executions were of utmost necessity in resuscitating a moribund copper market?
20371. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:40:08 PM
The point of contention is not whether the USA has supported death squads, or overthrown governments, or the like. Most of those things are undeniable. The question is whether the USA did those things in order to serve corporate interests.
Chilean stadium executions were necessary to rid the country of filthy vermin. Copper prices tanked in 1974 to one-third of the 1973 levels, anyway.
20372. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:40:54 PM
Brian Williams: "Style point. Bush blinks a great deal. Tim, how do you think such blinking will register with Bin Laden?"
Tim russert: "Well, Brian, if you blink at a teleprompter, will you blink at the moment of decision? That is a question that can only be answered in the coming days."
Brian Williams: "Thank you, Tim."
20373. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:43:11 PM
He said it again: The US will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.
20374. Raskolnikov - 9/11/2001 8:44:02 PM
FU: Strategic partnerships are what I meant. I don't care any more about Belgian opinion than you do. But I do care about Pakistani and Arab opinion. The Gulf War was made a hell of a lot easier with support, or just neutrality, from key states.
Not that we should back off if we *can't* get that level of cooperation, but we should work hard to get it.
20375. Laura C - 9/11/2001 8:46:36 PM
He had me up until the 23rd Psalm.
20376. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:47:59 PM
Yeah, I expected a cue to the Battle Hymn of the Republic at that point.
20377. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:50:08 PM
I don't really care that much for Pakistani or Arab opinion. They will condemn what I hope to be a massive and indiscriminate retaliation. That said, I'm sure no one presumes that any administration, no matter how unilateralist, will cease diplomatic efforts in lieu of having its actions understood and, if possible, accepted. But to the extent you modulate your response based upon the vagaries of the either fanatical or fickle Arab world, you may as well abandon the type of response that is necessary.
I call for prudence in terms of timing. I do believe that we should wait until our case is strongest and our prey is more vulnerable.
But when the time comes, I agree with Ace that the actions must be like nothing the terrorists and those who harbor them have ever seen. And given that prerequisite, I am relatively sure that the most deft of diplomatic entreaties will not stem the condemnation of the Arab world.
20378. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:50:41 PM
The question is whether the USA did those things in order to serve corporate interests.
And the obvious answer is along the lines of "sometimes" or "frequently". Chomsky himself has never said "always". You can pant over the quantifiables all you like, my main beef has been that there has never been any real accountability.
Chilean stadium executions were necessary to rid the country of filthy vermin.
Yeah well, a couple of those "vermin" were fucking American citizens, and I resent the fact that the US gov't let that turd Pinochet get away with murdering Americans, as well as assassinating people in our fucking capital (Letelier).
Leaving aside your smarmy acceptance of people having electrodes attached to their nuts and being shot without trial, there is supposed to be the rule of law, and accountability. Either you believe that as a matter of principle, or a matter of convenience. If it's the latter, so what? Nothing to be proud of there.
Copper prices tanked in 1974 to one-third of the 1973 levels, anyway.
So what you're saying is that economic decisions didn't factor into that scenario, then?
20379. judithathome - 9/11/2001 8:52:08 PM
Well, style points aside, who feels better now that Bush has read?
20380. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:53:49 PM
I would have preferred if he personally tucked me in tonite, but I feel cozy.
20381. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:54:29 PM
Although, he tanked on the critical role of any chief executive.
Style points.
20382. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:54:38 PM
FU,
US must use Pakistani or Iranian air space to attack. Does that matter by any chance?
20383. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:54:54 PM
Urkel:
Maybe he'll let you drill in Jenna's protected wetlands....
20384. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:55:20 PM
I mean, style points aside, juditha?
As Brian Williams will tell you, and I'm sure you know, the game is style points.
20385. Absensia - 9/11/2001 8:55:33 PM
Not me, Judith.
20386. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:58:01 PM
Frances:
Knock Brian Williams all you want, but I'll always remember him crying when Di died. Made me feel like I'd lost a member of the family.
Until later, when I realized she was just some broad who had more money than brains, who I'd never thought much of in the first place....
20387. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:58:55 PM
Well, call me naïve, but I'm glad to see him in DC and gladder still to hear a message of business as usual. I'm not going to criticize him at this point.
20388. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:59:06 PM
Khabees
You presume that our response will be solely by bomber. You also presume that we will request clearance of air space from Iran or Pakistan.
This calls for something more than the massive bombing, go home, hooray.
We soften them by missile, we bomb them, air clearance or no, and then we send in strike teams to shoot every dog still moving.
20389. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 8:59:24 PM
I concur with Francis and what I assume Ace would say as well re Arab opinion. The Egyptians, who, next to Israel, receive more American largesse than any other nation, were shouting "Bull's eye!" when the second jet smashed into the second tower.
As a minor aside, I've not heard any talk that this might be the work of Serbians. Will just throw that out there so on the off chance it is, I can say, "See, what did I tell you?" I don't think it was Serbian terrorists, though they have as much cause to do this as anyone and used to have a pretty good reputation for mayhem.
20390. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:59:54 PM
maria
Well I am.
The man has no style.
20391. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:01:08 PM
Serbian terrorists would have run the planes into each other.
20392. mgleason - 9/11/2001 9:01:21 PM
It's sort of endearing, FU. Really.
20393. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:02:50 PM
I didn't like his tie at all. This is a tragedy, not an Easter egg hunt.
20394. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:03:30 PM
Bush has no style, but business as usual is important.
The more we magnify this, the more we let the terrorists accomplish what they wanted. If they have any hint of rationality, we make it clear to them that they're not going to get any reaction from us but an ass-kicking.
Of course that does little good because they have all the rationality of a rabid dog.
Only one cure for a rabid dog.
20395. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 9:04:13 PM
Serbian terrorists would have run the planes into each other.
I thought that was Polish terrorists. Or am I thinking about the Polish terrorist who tried to blow up a bus, and burned his lips on the exhaust pipe?
20396. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:04:15 PM
Message # 20378
And the obvious answer is along the lines of "sometimes" or "frequently".
No, the only possible and coherent answer is: very rarely, if ever at all.
Yeah well, a couple of those "vermin" were fucking American citizens, and I resent the fact that the US gov't let that turd Pinochet get away with murdering Americans, as well as assassinating people in our fucking capital (Letelier).
I don't think the Yankistan government "let" Pinochet do anything. Pinochet was his own man. He did whatever he wanted.
Leaving aside your smarmy acceptance of people having electrodes attached to their nuts and being shot without trial....
I don't approve of that at all.
...there is supposed to be the rule of law, and accountability. Either you believe that as a matter of principle, or a matter of convenience.
Well, the Allende regime was an outlaw regime. Overthrowing him was a good thing.
So what you're saying is that economic decisions didn't factor into that scenario, then?
Zero.
20397. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:04:28 PM
Indy
Agreed. Move on. Start the memorials. Bury the dead. Bide.
Incinerate.
20398. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:09:56 PM
FU,
Don't you belong to the best democracy in the world??? WOW!!! I am impressed !! You don't think the violation of a country's air space means anything or is it your "right"? May be that plane disassembled by China was sent to prove your point of view too.
By the way, didn't USSR try to kill some dogs in those streets too?
I remind you, that Afghanistan has no land route available for a land attack unlike Iraq.
20399. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 9:13:01 PM
No, the only possible and coherent answer is: very rarely, if ever at all.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't think the Yankistan government "let" Pinochet do anything. Pinochet was his own man. He did whatever he wanted.
Nonsense. You don't get away with torturing/murdering American citizens (even lefty radicals), and blowing up a car in DC, without someone letting you. Pinochet should have been brought to heel for such actions, yet never was. Why do you think that is?
I don't approve of [people having electrodes attached to their nuts and being shot without trial] at all.
Right. You referred to them as "vermin" (in the throes of orgasmic polemicism, no doubt). Not demanding accountability for such actions is tantamount to acceptance, afaic.
Well, the Allende regime was an outlaw regime. Overthrowing him was a good thing.
Hmmm. Was Allende not democratically elected by the people of Chile? Maybe, maybe not -- who can tell with these backwater countries? But even if not, why is one coup d'état legitimate and the other not? Explain yourself, Pedro. Are these not economic considerations -- Allende was nationalizing the copper mines and fucking up commodities markets, yes?
20400. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:15:42 PM
Khabees
What is the point of being the top dog in the neighborhood if you can't pee on all the fire hydrants?
Actually, if you actually believe that any great nation would require the assent of Pakistan or Iran to bomb its enemies, it is clear that your sympathies are third-world, to the detriment of your understanding of realpolitik.
I have a question for you?
If you were the President of the United States, and it was proven that Bin laden was behind the attacks, and I could guarantee you that tomorrow, Bin Laden, every one of his associates, every one of their parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, and children, and every around them for an area of 200 yards would be eliminated by painful fiery death, would you authorize me to commit this act?
20401. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:16:11 PM
And the Nazis had a lot trouble handling Yugoslavian resistance, too, Khargosh. That fact didn't slow us down any.
Talk to our European friends about why something can't be done. You're dealing with Americans now.
20402. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:23:36 PM
Message # 20399
You don't get away with torturing/murdering American citizens (even lefty radicals), and blowing up a car in DC, without someone letting you. Pinochet should have been brought to heel for such actions, yet never was. Why do you think that is?
Pinochet didn't get prior permission from the Yankistan government. He just did what he did, and apparently the US government looked the other way. I don't think that's "letting" Pinochet do something.
Right. You referred to them as "vermin" (in the throes of orgasmic polemicism, no doubt). Not demanding accountability for such actions is tantamount to acceptance, afaic.
I don't mind if you demand accountability.
Was Allende not democratically elected by the people of Chile?
No.
Allende failed to win the majority vote in the general election, garnering only 36%. According to the Chilean constitution, it was then up to the Congress to select a winner. The Chilean Congress chose Allende. Got that? It was a legal selection.
But even if not, why is one coup d'état legitimate and the other not?
The same Congress, three years later, passed a resolution accusing Allende of "attempting to establish a totalitarian regime" in Chile and all kinds of violations of the constitution, and threatened to invoke its right to remove the president from office on the grounds of incompetence. I can post the full text of that resolution if you wish, whether in English or in Spanish. I think this resolution constitutes a de facto legal basis for the removal of that scum. The coup came two days later.
20403. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:23:52 PM
Are these not economic considerations -- Allende was nationalizing the copper mines and fucking up commodities markets, yes?
No, no, and no. You are among the most arse-ignorant fools I know.
Allende's predecessor, the US-backed Eduardo Frei of the Christian Democratic Party, had begun the nationalisation process by expropriating 50% of foreign-owned copper mines. Allende merely completed this process. And the Chilean congress voted for this expropriation unanimously. That means not only the leftist members of congress but also the US-backed right-wing and centrist members of Congress voted for the nationalisation.
20404. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:25:11 PM
FU,
I belived so far that America was the king of the jungle...a lion...Gawd!! i never thought you considered yourself just a "top dog". Grow up and know that you r not a dog...learn to behave like a lion.
as far as your question is concerned,
If I were the president of America, do you think I would listen to you or trust your information????
20405. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:27:45 PM
PE,
BBC International just had a fellow named Chowdry on, talking about U.S. support of Arab dictators and those alleged puppets' failure to observe the holy words of the Koran, and various crimes against Islamic people. Do you know who he is?
20406. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:28:53 PM
I asked you a question, and a fair one at that, as it is not proffered to test your loyalties, but your judgment. The information you have received is not from me. For purposes of the hypothetical, it is from the most unimpeachable source you can imagine. And for purposes of the hypothetical, the consequences set forth are certain.
Will you answer or equivocate further?
20407. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:31:05 PM
How come Francis never answers hypotheticals but always poses them?
To answer (as if there were any doubt): fry them all. Hell, I'd say the same thing if it were 20 square miles.
20408. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:31:10 PM
There must be a hundred people surnamed Chowdry, and I'm sure they're all a bit clammy.
20409. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:31:23 PM
FU,
I am the thirld world and I want to make it clear that I most strongly condemn what happened today and I am totally against terrorism of any kind. I also believe that those who are responsible should be brought to justice.....death of the worst kind. But that doesnt mean you take out your missiles and start firing on any country you wish without any evidence against a so far alleged terrorist.
20410. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:31:36 PM
FU, why would you want to wipe out relatives, children, et al?
20411. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:32:51 PM
Yes, Cal, I wondered about FU too. But..fry all of whom?
20412. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:33:11 PM
Clammy as in those harvested in a hot month during a red tide scare, actually.
20413. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:33:45 PM
There must be a hundred people surnamed Chowdry, and I'm sure they're all a bit clammy.
Google supports this, except hundred appears to be an underestimation.
20414. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:34:55 PM
I meant 100 million.
20415. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:35:25 PM
and even more named Chaudhry, and other variations.
20416. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:35:50 PM
Absensia
Because to the extent the retaliation is like nothing they have ever experienced, it advances American interests and sets the proper tone.
Khabees
You have answered a hypothetical that guarantees the evidence and identifies the perpetrators with certainty by questioning the evidence and the identification of the perpetrators. Your condemnation notwithstanding, you have answered with a resounding "no."
20417. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:35:59 PM
But that doesnt mean you take out your missiles and start firing on any country you wish without any evidence against a so far alleged terrorist.
Khabees: Whether or not Bin Laden is implicated in this act, it's high time to get rid of him.
20418. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:37:19 PM
I heard mention that the producer of Frasier was on one of the planes--David Angell, I think?
20419. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:37:31 PM
As for questions, if there is a question that someone would like me to answer, ask away. I will answer.
20420. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:37:39 PM
FU,
If I were the president and had the PROOF that its Laden and that HE is in whatever square of miles I would definitely go for it. But the point is you are not sure if it's Laden and you dont know where he is.
20421. Raskolnikov - 9/11/2001 9:38:02 PM
Pseudo: How viable is the Taliban's opposition at the moment? The US has a long track record of taking strong sides in civil wars to its strategic advantage. I am just wondering how possible that is in this case. Assuming that bin Laden is indeed responsible, and the Taliban refuses to cough him up - how vulnerable are they to being removed from power with US airstrikes coordinated with opposition ground attacks?
20422. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:38:08 PM
The producer of Frasier?
This is war.
20423. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:39:28 PM
Abs,
I wasn't thinking of the need to kill the relatives, as Francis was. I just consider them expendable; a reasonable cost. What was the word McVeigh used?
Besides, the kids might grow up and want vengeance. Best kill them early, I'd say.
Don't know if anyone mentioned this but the buildings collapsed because the steel melted, according to the structural engineers on Lehrer.
20424. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:40:05 PM
FU, how does that make us different than those terrorists we condemn. And, KK, said "alleged terrorists" and requires evidence. That is the basic constitutional basis of the United States as well. Not guilty until prove so.
IJ, we get rid of Bin Laden because it's time, even if he didn't do this? Should this be a free for all?
20425. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:40:22 PM
Khabees
Thank you for your answer. I am heartened that you deem that acts of such severity that the retlaiation must be massive, to the point of the massacre innocents, including family members, and including children.
20426. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:40:46 PM
Francis: I can't let an opening like that go by.
How frayed did you get today? Or did you remember Kipling's poem "If" and act upon it?
BTW, completely off-topic, if you haven't read any Walker Percy, you ought to.
20427. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 9:40:57 PM
[Pinochet] just did what he did, and apparently the US government looked the other way. I don't think that's "letting" Pinochet do something.
Ridiculous. That's the exact definition of letting someone get away with something.
I don't mind if you demand accountability.
Awful large of you, but that's not the point. You refer to murdered political dissidents as "vermin", yet you supposedly disapprove of their methods of extermination, or what? How fine a distinction are you trying to draw, or are you just typically indifferent to such things (except, of course, when it's your own flesh and blood being persecuted)?
20428. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:41:09 PM
The Northern Alliance is no longer a serious force in Afghanistan. It would have been driven out of Afghanistan, like all other opposition groups, by the Taliban had it not been for the fact that the Northern Alliance stronghold is the Panjshir Valley, which even Soviet gunships could not penetrate. The civil war persists only because the last opposition elements are holed up in a geographically isolated and remote region.
20429. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:42:08 PM
Cal, maybe their kids might want vengence, but does this mean, in order to make sure we "get them all" do we just nuke the country, and if so, which one?
20430. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 9:42:17 PM
Allende failed to win the majority vote in the general election, garnering only 36%. According to the Chilean constitution, it was then up to the Congress to select a winner. The Chilean Congress chose Allende. Got that? It was a legal selection.
Kinda like here last year, eh? Well then, it appears that Allende's ascension to power was at least constitutional and lawful, right? So how was his an "outlaw" regime?
The same Congress, three years later, passed a resolution accusing Allende of "attempting to establish a totalitarian regime" in Chile and all kinds of violations of the constitution, and threatened to invoke its right to remove the president from office on the grounds of incompetence....I think this resolution constitutes a de facto legal basis for the removal of that scum. The coup came two days later.
Well, in a country of law, the coup does not happen, now does it? Why wasn't the Chilean Congress not allowed to pass its resolution and legally remove Allende? Because Pinochet and his ilk not only were uncertain whether or not Allende would be removed at all, but also that even if he were removed, that they still wouldn't be in power.
That's what I'm trying to get at here, Pseudo. You'll happily trade one scumbag for another, secure in the certitude that you know what's best. I suggest that people have the right to determine their own fates, and that Allende and Pinochet both were scornful of that basic principle, albeit in different ways. That one was more amenable to capitalism than the other is irrelevant from a human rights perspective.
You are among the most arse-ignorant fools I know.
Well, you don't know me very well, plus I have no doubt that you know plenty of fools besides me.
20431. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:43:44 PM
Absensia
Because our response, as endorsed by the third-worlder Khabees, was in response to an act of aggression. Under your philosophy, Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima are the same. But of course, they are not.
Moreover, constitutional guarantees are for American citizens, and the rights afforded thereby are not afforded to foreign enemies, and those who harbor them.
20432. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:43:55 PM
That was pretty clear. Concrete will turn to dust under such heat. Steel will fail at 1500 degrees they have said, and if you watch the tape of the towers going you can see the steel literally bowing out.
When a plane crashed into the Empire State building in WW 2 (I was just talking to my Mom about that), there were deaths on the floors affected but not much serious damage to the essential structure. The plane was small and had a limited amount of fuel. These planes were headed to LA and were loaded. Flying bombs.
20433. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:44:08 PM
No, I didn't mean it that way. I just meant it in the same way as "Barbara Olson was on the plane". Plus, he's fairly famous as a quality TV producer--not many of them are recognizable by name.
As far as your penchant for avoiding hypotheticals, Francis, it is more that you insist on your own and refuse all others. I'll try and think of one, but I'm sure whenever I do you'll refuse. (g)
20434. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:44:47 PM
IJ, we get rid of Bin Laden because it's time, even if he didn't do this? Should this be a free for all?
Absensia: If I'm not mistaken, the US has a $5 million price tag on the man already.
Bottom line, the ante has been upped. Do we raise, call, or fold?
I think to respond with the same old, same old is a fold: we haven't met their raise. Nukes or something like that is upping the ante ourselves, and I'm not ready for that. But we sure have to do something to indicate that terrorists just aren't going to be tolerated like bad teeth anymore.
Time to pull them out.
20435. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:46:46 PM
Abs,
Along with Francis' answer, which I agree with, the hypothetical was provided as being absolutely certain.
But in general, I think we should start being a lot less tolerant of countries that host terrorists. It will also be interesting to see what happens the next time the UN tries to pull any shit with us.
20436. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:46:53 PM
Indy
That I can recall, I have read The Moviegoer and The Second Coming, and enjoyed them both. I don't read as much fiction as I should.
20437. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:47:06 PM
ronksi: Upthread (around 8:25 p.m.) I linked a pretty detailed description of the building's failure. Or you can track it down on Salon if you haven't seen it yet.
20438. christipeters - 9/11/2001 9:47:36 PM
I finally heard from my brother. His In-Laws are ok.
20439. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:48:46 PM
Christi
Good news.
Cal
What "shit" might the UN pull with us?
20440. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:48:48 PM
See!! that was exaclty what I meant in 20404.
If I were the president, I would never listen to you or belive the info you give me. I would double check about any possible children, women or any other family members.
20441. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:48:56 PM
Good news, Christi.
20442. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:50:33 PM
Khabees
Of course you would, but as I understood you in your prior answer, once you were certain, you would authorize the massacre of the children, women or any other family members.
20443. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:51:41 PM
The statements from the U.S. government are getting clearer. The U.S. is already "90 % certain" it is bin Laden. They will be going after him and the Taliban, but only after a PR campaign to convince the world that bin Laden is indeed the perp.
A local angle is that New Jersey has detained people in a car who may have been linked to the bombings, i.e., bin Laden supporters who were observers to the event. Stay tuned. They were stopped in Bergen County.
20444. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:51:48 PM
Francis,
I don't think it matters. It's been a bad year for warm and fuzzies between us and them already, so it won't take much.
Earlier you said that we shouldn't care if we are condemned for whatever retaliation we take. I agree. But what if the UN Security Council, or NATO, or whatever, tells us they don't want us doing anything extreme? Should we listen? And would you consider any such requests to be one sort of "shit"?
20445. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:52:00 PM
And that resolve is to be commended.
20446. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:52:25 PM
And as I understood, you wanted to "soften them with bombing and missles and then kill every dog that was still moving.
20447. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:53:17 PM
christi,
Good.
I on the other hand am hearing about more friends, relatives and co-workers who have not yet heard about their loved ones, and that does not sound at all good.
20448. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:53:54 PM
And what on earth is wrong with that sentiment? I mean, you say it like it's a bad thing.
20449. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:54:26 PM
FU,
Consitutional guarantees are for all tried in the US, and many of the same are guaranteed by the World Court. No, my philosophy is not that, FU.
Stop with the pseudo legerdemain. Japan, the country bombed Pearl Harbor...the US retalitated.
But here...who do we bomb..if a terrorist slips into a country how do we prove that country is sheltering them? And do we bomb that country?
Cal: I agree...we need to change a lot of actions, and put the UN on notice.
Indy, there is still no proof about Bin Laden. Those who claim to know him say if he had been involved he would not have denied it this morning.
20450. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:54:54 PM
Obviously, that was for KK, not for Ronski. I'm sorry about that. I've been thinking about the kids at Marj's daycare whose parents haven't showed.
20451. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:55:48 PM
Cal
So the "shit" to which you refer is condemnation by the UN (a routine event, routinely ignored by the US), the UN Security Council (since I believe we are a permanent member of the Security Council, we would veto any condemnation emanating from that body) or from NATO (does NATO condemn unilateral acts by the United States?)
20452. wabbit - 9/11/2001 9:56:13 PM
News is reporting that a flight attendant on one of the planes gave 911 the seat number of one of the hijackers. Investigators are looking at someone in Florida. And at least one cellphone call has identified people alive in the rubble.
20453. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:56:35 PM
But here...who do we bomb..if a terrorist slips into a country how do we prove that country is sheltering them? And do we bomb that country?
But that logic has prevailed for some 20 years and here we are. I think its time to provide a lot more incentive for those countries to expel any terrorists they don't support.
20454. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:57:32 PM
Cal,
was 20448 meant for me ?
20455. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:58:13 PM
Francis: Glad you liked him. I thought of you because of the nostalgia for Southern aristocratic values and the quasi-lapsed Catholicism.
20456. mgleason - 9/11/2001 9:58:15 PM
I don't think I'm persuaded by those sorts of arguments regarding Bin Laden, Absensia. There is no believing or dealing with terrorists, and he is no 'alleged' terrorist, either.
20457. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:59:32 PM
Francis,
Every UN action this year has spurred a ton of handwringing one way or the other--half the country wails about how we need to be well-behaved neighbors in the global community. That reaction certainly modulates our response, even if we do ignore much of it in the end. I am only saying that the handwringing is likely to be significantly diminished.
20458. christipeters - 9/11/2001 9:59:41 PM
I have always had sympathy for both sides of the Palestine/Israel problems. I have mourned for the innocent dead of both sides. My response to the dancing in the streets and cheering over today's tragedy is this:
All my sympathy for you is gone.
EAT MY NUKES
20459. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:00:17 PM
Absensia
"Japan, the country bombed Pearl Harbor...the US retalitated. But here...who do we bomb..if a terrorist slips into a country how do we prove that country is sheltering them? And do we bomb that country?"
We bomb the terrorists and those who harbor them, as explicated by our unstylish president this evening. We do so after evidence points to the terrorists and those who harbor them.
20460. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:01:16 PM
KK,
Yes, it was.
Christi,
While I'm sickened by it too, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions about it.
20461. christipeters - 9/11/2001 10:01:34 PM
FUCK the global community. Lets close the borders, gear up, and kick ass.
20462. mgleason - 9/11/2001 10:01:52 PM
Oh, the Pals are toast; Arafat knows it.
20463. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:02:28 PM
On that note, I bid you all goodnite to a bad day.
20464. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:02:37 PM
But, having a terrorist hiding in a country is a lot different that "sheltering or harboring him."
20465. christipeters - 9/11/2001 10:03:12 PM
CalGal - I am not drawing any conclusions from it about who is responsible for the attacks today. My anger over their joy is sufficient to make me wish to turn them into little smears on the pavement with no further provocation on their part.
20466. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:03:40 PM
Message # 20430: Kinda like here last year, eh?: Yes, exactly. I was going to say that Allende was no more elected than George Bush Jr. I was going to suggest, in fact, that Allende would have been rather like Nixon if Nixon had come to office in the manner of Bush.
Well then, it appears that Allende's ascension to power was at least constitutional and lawful, right? So how was his an "outlaw" regime?: You can come to power legally and constitutionally, but not act legally and constitutionally in office. Allende's administration was one long series of illegal, unconstitutional and extraconstitutional actions. The Chilean Congress, which put Allende in the presidency, thought so. The Chilean Supreme Court thought so. I can enumerate Allende's illegal actions, if you want.
Well, in a country of law, the coup does not happen, now does it?: Actually, since Allende was organising paramilitary groups, the army might have been necessary to remove him even after the Congress had legally impeached him.
Why wasn't the Chilean Congress not allowed to pass its resolution and legally remove Allende? Because Pinochet and his ilk not only were uncertain whether or not Allende would be removed at all...: I prefer that the Congress had been allowed to do so, but there was some uncertainty, as you speculate. There were two provisions in the constitution for removing a president, the one requiring a simple majority vote of congress (to remove a president on the grounds of medical or psychiatric disability) and the other requiring a 2/3 vote (for political incompetence). The Chileans are a very legalistic people, and there was a long debate about the appropriateness of invoking the medical competence clause. The opposition had the majority but not two-thirds.
20467. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:03:56 PM
That's what I'm trying to get at here, Pseudo. You'll happily trade one scumbag for another, secure in the certitude that you know what's best.....That one was more amenable to capitalism than the other is irrelevant from a human rights perspective.
Whatever. It's not relevant to the exchange about "corporate interests".
Ridiculous. That's the exact definition of letting someone get away with something.
Well, you said "let ____ do" certain things. That implies prior permission or encouragement. That didn't happen.
You refer to murdered political dissidents as "vermin", yet you supposedly disapprove of their methods of extermination, or what? How fine a distinction are you trying to draw, or are you just typically indifferent to such things (except, of course, when it's your own flesh and blood being persecuted)?
I can disapprove of people being killed extrajudicially and still think they are vermin. I want rapists and murderers executed, but I don't want them shot summarily and buried inside stadium walls.
20468. christipeters - 9/11/2001 10:04:31 PM
Now, since I have totally forgotten that I am a Lady, to say nothing of shucking off my bleeding heart liberalism. I think I'll sign off now and get ready for bed.
20469. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:04:33 PM
Indy, there is still no proof about Bin Laden. Those who claim to know him say if he had been involved he would not have denied it this morning.
Absensia: Please refer to my previous statement(s). I don't care whether he did this particular act or not. I've made it clear several times now that if one dog has been biting you every morning on your way to he mail box and then your child gets mauled by an unknown dog, there's nothing wrong in my eyes withs killing the first one while you find out who did the mauling.
20470. mgleason - 9/11/2001 10:04:36 PM
If a country permits known terrorists to operate within its borders, it is harboring them, as Afghanistan has harbored Bin Laden.
20471. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:04:56 PM
Christi,
Yeah, me too.
Abs,
Let them worry about that distinction for a while.
20472. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:05:19 PM
mgleason,
a few pictures of a turban wearing, beard sporting man with a gun doesnt prove he is a terrorist. We seem to base it all on some videos, etc. Ironically, there are muslims in several countries who say may believe bin Laden is really CIA and talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
20473. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:05:25 PM
Arafat has played his game, and lost.
20474. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:06:14 PM
Wabbit,
Good thinking on that flight attendant's part. I wonder if they all knew they were going to die. The plane crashes activate all my phobias, much more than the building destructions.
20475. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 10:06:46 PM
FU,
you called me a thirld worlder...comon man!! atleast say that on my face. You mention me as a thirld worlder in a post adressed to somebody else? I expect better than that from you, after all you just described yourself as the "top dog"
20476. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:07:56 PM
mgleason, and cal..now that I agree with. Christi, I think the "dancers" were a few idiots who did it for the cameras.
20477. mgleason - 9/11/2001 10:08:36 PM
Absensia,
Bin Laden has admitted terrorist acts against this country. If he's lying, then shame on him; I guess he'll learn his lesson.
20478. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:08:38 PM
Bin Laden and what's his name from the Hezbollah have no doubt been responsible for scores of American deaths over the years. I would not be surprised if the U.S. blasts the Taliban out of office for giving him sanctuary, even if they have done so somewhat reluctantly.
20479. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:09:45 PM
Well, Indy, if some dog bit my kid, I'd kill it on the spot.
20480. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:11:40 PM
As most of you know I am a rabid anti-communist but in what way are Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger not terrorists from the Vietnamese and Cambodian points of view and why can't the USA be considered harbouring these people?
20481. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:12:40 PM
True, Maria, but bin Laden as CIA creates an interesting senario, though probably more of a novel than truth.
20482. millhead - 9/11/2001 10:13:37 PM
"My anger over their joy is sufficient to make me wish to turn them into little smears on the pavement with no further provocation on their part."
Christi...enough of your psycho babble.
Take a step back and stop drinking the nuclear kool aid...if your children were taught from birth that the Israeli's and American's were evil and the scurge of the earth, they would be cheering too. Retaliating on the Earth's children is inconceivable to me. Let our leader's make appropriate and level headed decisions. And pray to whatever god, spirit or object that you pray to for PEACE...
20483. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:14:04 PM
and Indy, if some dog bit me once and ran, he wouldn't get a second bite.
20484. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:15:13 PM
Mill,
Sorry, but that shit doesn't fly. How often do you see people gloating and celebrating like that?
20485. millhead - 9/11/2001 10:15:16 PM
"As most of you know I am a rabid anti-communist but in what way are Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger not terrorists from the Vietnamese and Cambodian points of view and why can't the USA be considered harbouring these people?"
You are correct...they ARE terrorists. And Kissinger will be proved so on the world stage.
20486. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:15:40 PM
PE,
I think you might be surprised at the number of Americans who would offer no argument to your question about McNamara and co., from both the moderate left and the libertarian right.
20487. millhead - 9/11/2001 10:16:27 PM
come on...and you think that the children comprehend what truly has happened here...the children only know what is taught to them
20488. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:16:29 PM
PE,
They aren't terrorists, they were members of the US government. Therefore both Cambodia and Vietnam were welcome to declare war on us if that's what made them happy.
20489. mgleason - 9/11/2001 10:17:07 PM
Spare. Me.
20490. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:18:36 PM
What I have been wondering about is the media coverage. Is it stirring things up too much? Would people throughout the world have different feelings about this if no TV? Would all those Congressmen and Senators have fought for TV time?
And what is going to happen here? Will people become xenophobic and attack muslims or those who "look" muslim, screaming "terrorist"? The facts of the US's treatment of it's Japanese citizens in World War II come to mind.
20491. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 10:20:24 PM
Cal, 20448
I know it's not the right time to say this because the events that took place today are by no means or any standards right. I am upset about it as much as any of you. But doesn't that catastrophe remind you of anything? Anything from Hiroshima to Iraq? Any dead children, women, innocent citizens, collapsing buildings?......sigh. I wish you could feel those children as humans too. I wish you could feel those corps as humans too.....I hate to say this but when people start "celebrating" someone's death, there is something deeply wrong behind it.
20492. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:20:50 PM
Has anyone heard from janjon?
20493. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:22:42 PM
SHIT. He hasn't been around recently and I forgot about him. I think I have an email address for him somewhere.
20494. transient1a - 9/11/2001 10:22:42 PM
A strange day!
We were supposed to be going by car from Los Angeles to San Francisco.
Ended up waiting 4 hours to give blood at the UCLA Medical Center.
The blood clinic was crowded. Several feet away, while on a cell phone, a United Airlines stewardess, collapsed sobbing. She had just discovered one of her friends -- another stewardess -- was dead.
20495. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:22:57 PM
If the communists in Vietnam or Cambodia had it within their power to take out Robert McNamara or Kissinger, they would have.
Regardless of whether you think we were wrong to have bombed those countries, that doesn't mean we have to bend over and take it from terrorists now.
Our ancestors stole everything from the Indians, for that matter, but if Indians started running around murdering white people I'd still fight back.
20496. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:23:32 PM
Khabees,
We are talking about the problem of selective compassion. Not feeling any compassion for people who are the "other."
In war, soldiers must be made to experience no compassion for the enemy. In situations less than outright war, it gets muddier.
20497. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:23:54 PM
Well, anticommunist as I am, I can't think of a particularly good why the USA had to drop enough bombs on Vietnam and Cambodia to kill over a million people.
What justified that? And why would hypothetical Vietnamese and Cambodian terrorists not be justified in retaliating against the USA if the USA is justified -- as I believe it is -- in retaliating against the perpetrators of the attacks in NY and DC?
Message # 20488
So it's just a question of power, not of moral justification?
20498. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:24:57 PM
Message # 20495
So it's all a question of power, not moral justification? America isn't justified morally in retaliating against today's terrorists? It's just a question of power?
20499. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:26:54 PM
Or is it all just a question of deterrence? You can't let terrorist acts stand, and so on?
20500. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:27:39 PM
Indy,
If you travel the Southwest, you will still today hear much from Anglos about how very nasty the Native Americans were to white people. In the East and Midwest, one no doubt heard those things about Indians all the time two centuries ago, making such things as the Trail of Tears possible.
20501. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:31:44 PM
KK,
I do feel for any children who die. It just isn't sufficient a reason to refrain from acting. Other than that, I didn't understand your post.
Abs,
Irv thinks that. I hope not. I don't think so, myself, but those Palestinians were a nasty sight.
PE,
I don't see any reason why the Vietnamese and Cambodians couldn't declare war on the US--except that we'd just have bombed them more ferociously. I thought the issue was harboring terrorists. Government officials aren't terrorists, are they?
Possibly 800 people killed at the Pentagon alone.
20502. millhead - 9/11/2001 10:32:12 PM
Cal,
Make no mistake...I was horrified to see the people celebrating the tragedy today. I know America will act swiftly and violently.
And though revenge is unavoidable, may it at least be sage. Let us grieve for the lost and the suffering, but pray that their blood cleanses us of our national complacency and our cavalier attitude towards our freedoms.
20503. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:32:55 PM
Catgut, you're not answering the question.
20504. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:34:32 PM
Note that all U.S. statements talk about defending freedom and democracy, while the voices from those few who are actually coming out in support of the terrorism, such as that Chowdry (Chaudry) character, are talking about the grievances of Muslims. No common ground even for the discussion. Remember how long it took to decide the shape of the table before the Vietnam talks took place. In this debate, we can't decide even that much.
20505. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:36:47 PM
The suggested response is a question of power and deterrence. These are matters best uninfluenced by moral outrage.
Could I distinguish the acts of Kissinger/McNamara during the Vietnam War from the acts of today? Certainly, and so could you. As Cal points out, the acts were commited after the formal declaration of hostilities, thus making Kissinger and McNamama potential though unlikely combatants; historical review of the bombing campaigns demonstrates that unlike today's acts, civilians were not targets; and, in fact, as we learned from the recent Bob Kerrey incident, military law prohibits killing civilians, and there are loads of American serviceman who spent time in jail as a result of that code.
But your point really is as follows: does a nation's history of morally reprehensible behavior divest it of the right to be morally outraged when it is the victim of morally reprehensible behavior?
I can only speak for myself in saying that this nation's egregious involvement in the slave trade and its long harboring of Cher did not diminish my moral outrage of today.
20506. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:38:54 PM
Gosh, he called me Catgut. It's been years.
I'm sorry, I might have misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking what the difference was between Kissinger and a terrorist--ie, the US was harboring terrorists? My answer is that since they aren't terrorists because they are in fact representatives of the country.
If you are asking why retaliate, then it is both deterrence and payment. I don't see anything wrong with that.
20507. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:39:29 PM
PE: How can you ask whether someone has a moral justification to retaliate in such a situation? What does "moral justification" mean to you?
BTW, if the Serbs had the capacity to retaliate against us and had, I would have thought they were morally justified to do so. When someone rains death on you, including civilians, while risking very little themselves, I think you are justified in trying to find a way to retaliate.
You may or may not be aware that I try to follow Christ, PE. But so far in this instance I have not yet felt anything moving me toward turning the other cheek.
20508. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:41:29 PM
Oops, scratch that "since".
20509. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:42:05 PM
Addendum to the Serbian situation: As Norman Schwartzkopf was saying a while ago, "The difference between us and these bastards is we try to minimize civilian casualties. They try to maximize them." (paraphrase)
20510. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:42:36 PM
historical review of the bombing campaigns demonstrates that unlike today's acts, civilians were not targets
Not deliberately targetted, but everyone knows that saturation bombing kills many many innocents. That still didn't stop anybody from engaging in saturation bombing even though there was no compelling reason to fight a war on such a scale.
Could I distinguish the acts of Kissinger/McNamara during the Vietnam War from the acts of today? Certainly, and so could you.
I don't think it's that different, morally, from what the planners of today's attacks.
But your point really is as follows: does a nation's history of morally reprehensible behavior divest it of the right to be morally outraged when it is the victim of morally reprehensible behavior?
That is not at all my point. The USA is right to be outraged, and right to retaliate. I was just wondering whether you thought it would also have been right for hypothetical Cambodian and Vietnamese terrorists in 1972 to have killed innocent Americans in the course of (say) bombing the Pentagon.
20511. transient1a - 9/11/2001 10:44:45 PM
pseudoerasmus,
Message # 20480
"As most of you know I am a rabid anti-communist but in what way are Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger not terrorists from the Vietnamese and Cambodian points of view and why can't the USA be considered harbouring these people?"
Despite your 'rabid' anti-communism or perhaps because of it --you do not seem to have grasped the nature of warfare.
What is the nature of your pseudopretzellated thinking that leads you to think that the eggs and the omelet should be able to peacefully coexist in some weird quantum state where both are equally accessible?
20512. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:44:46 PM
(1) I think the USA is justified in retaliating.
(2) I think the USA is right to feel morally outraged.
All of you who question what I think in these areas, are dealing with strawmen.
My question:
Would also it have been morally justified for hypothetical Cambodian and Vietnamese terrorists in 1972 to have killed innocent Americans in the course of (say) bombing the Pentagon?
20513. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:45:20 PM
I was just wondering whether you thought it would also have been right for hypothetical Cambodian and Vietnamese terrorists in 1972 to have killed innocent Americans in the course of (say) bombing the Pentagon.
It would have been an act of war, of course, and we would have incinerated the country, but I think any country has the right to retaliate.
20514. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:46:40 PM
By the way, pseudo, you do differentiate between killing soldiers/VC and civilians? Otherwise, what right does the United States have in harboring veterans and survivors of the Battle of the Bulge?
I may be wrong but estimates of North Vietnamese civilians killed by the United States military in Vietnam ranges from 65,000 to 300,000.
20515. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:49:15 PM
Of course I recognise the distinction between combatants and civilians, except in situations of total war where there is no such distinction. The question then falls on whether the war should have been fought to begin with.
I have read that civilian deaths in Vietnam numbered as high as 1 million. but 1 million or 300 000, what's the difference.
20516. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:49:19 PM
Of course I recognise the distinction between combatants and civilians, except in situations of total war where there is no such distinction. The question then falls on whether the war should have been fought to begin with.
I have read that civilian deaths in Vietnam numbered as high as 1 million. but 1 million or 300 000, what's the difference.
20517. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:50:00 PM
pseudo
Yes. During the Vietnam War, it would have been, to my moral compass, morally correct for North Vietnamese to kill American civilians in their prosecution of the war.
What that has to do with today, I'm not sure. Given your thin "I don't think it's that different", I presume you are not sure either.
20518. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:50:55 PM
The difference between warfare and terrorism is that latter is directed primarily against civilians, while the former is primarily, strategically not. Lest we forget.
20519. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:51:59 PM
pseudo
The difference is 700,000 (or 935,000, if you accept the 65,000 figure). However, I now have a greater understanding as to your inability to see the difference of today's acts with civilian deaths in saturation bombing during declared war.
20520. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 10:53:18 PM
FU is spot-on in virtually everything he's been writing since the attacks.
Man, those attacks were mean motherfucking terror successes. If this is Bin Laden or something like him, then we are up against something similar to what happened to Israel with the Hizbullah, in Lebanon: they turned from primitive doo-dahs to sophisticated commando fighters with the ability to plan and successfully execute very intricate operations.
Money (from Iran, in the Hizbullah's case) seems to buy sophistication.
Btw, I expect the Pal leadership will try to make sure there are no more celebrations in the streets -though I'm not sure the people will comply. Arafat knows how to pretend he's ashen faced with grief (probably smeared some gray makeup on) but I'm sure he has a boner under his uniform. He lives for stuff like this. This is a great day for terrorists worldwide, and Arafat is the best there is in that field.
20521. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:53:25 PM
PE (20512): I think I answered that re the Serbs. If you want to get specific about Cambodia and Vietnam, I'd say their action would be less morally justifiable but not entirely without merit.
They had the capacity to retaliate against our military presence in their own country and retaliation there would have been more effective in achieving their aims than terrorism. (And of course many people in this country were actively against the war, which also weakens the justification for an attack on the homefront.)
20522. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:55:31 PM
This story was linked on Free Republic
I assume UPI is still a credible news source.
20523. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:56:00 PM
As Rustler has appeared with appropriate honors for my analyses, I am persuaded that competent relief has arrived.
Adios.
20524. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:57:47 PM
Indy,
You assume too much here.
20525. sakonige - 9/11/2001 10:59:52 PM
Boy, the more of this stuff I read, the less I regret the loss of thousands of "American" lives.
20526. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:00:18 PM
Urquhart's and Jones's attempts to portray it otherwise notwithstanding, I do understand there is a difference in intention between saturation bombing and terrorist attacks. But intention becomes irrelevant when there is foreknowledge. Everyone knows saturation bombing, of the kind carried out in the Vietnam War, results in thousands and thousands of innocent deaths. And when you have foreknowledge of such actions in a war with no clear aim or justification, then I think the action takes on, shall we say, a certain terroristic flavour.
Jones, you keep talking about capability, which is irrelevant to my point.
20527. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:01:25 PM
Man, those attacks were mean motherfucking terror successes.
They truly were. Fucking brilliant.
Indy--he had to have been planning this for years, not two weeks.
20528. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 11:01:40 PM
Seriously, ronski? UPI is no good anymore? I thought the facts didn't sound that outlandish.
Well, anyway, I haven't gotten anything done today and no sleep last night. So quoting bad news sources and making more typos means I should probably hang it up for this evening.
May a better dawn await us.
20529. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:03:52 PM
PE,
I thought that terrorists weren't associated with a country. Is Pol Pot a terrorist?
So could someone make the argument that the US's act in Vietnam were terrible and worth of comparison with this? I'm sure they could--I wouldn't agree, but then I'm not Vietnamese. But the US acted as a country, ergo it couldn't be a terrorist act.
20530. ronski - 9/11/2001 11:05:29 PM
I would just at this point take anyting on UPI with a large grain of salt. They have a very particular agenda at the top.
20531. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:06:56 PM
Boy, there were a lot of cellphones being used. A San Francisco resident called his aunt and mother to tell them there were three hijackers and that he loved them.
20532. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:07:20 PM
Calgal, why do you post remarks at all? Why don't you just post "definitional" and be done with it?
20533. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:11:07 PM
PE,
Because anything I can do to keep you annoyed and cranky is a gift to online society. You're cute when you're pissed.
I already answered your original question, didn't you see? Yes, Vietnam would be morally justified in bombing the shit out of the US. It really doesn't much matter to me whether the actions are equivalent or not. I think any country has the right to make war against whoever they perceive to be an aggressor.
So if that's all you were looking for, I provided it already.
20534. ronski - 9/11/2001 11:12:32 PM
The New Jersey report was that a truck full of explosives was headed towards the George Washington Bridge, which I sometimes take.
My partner has just gotten home from his newspaper.
I am a very fortunate man. Bye for now.
20535. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:16:34 PM
Well, given all the moral rhetoric on display here, Calgal's and FU's relativism seems a bit implausible.
Again, I'm not saying that the USA isn't justified in retaliating. I'm not saying that the USA hasn't the right to be morally outraged. It is justified and it ought to be outraged.
But the USA has also killed hundreds of thousands of people with little or no justification.
20536. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 11:17:41 PM
If any of these terrorists gets his hands on nuclear weapons (and they will, eventually) does anyone think they would hesitate in killing 10 or 100 million Americans?
Answer: maybe, if they thought that by hesitating they would increase the number of people killed or make their deaths more agonizing.
Kissinger and McNamara had their hands on weapons that could have killed millions and didn't even think about using them.
Really, people, get a grip on reality and yourselves. Can Timothy McVeigh be compared to, say, Janet Reno (even if you hate her with great pinko fervor)? There is something wrong with questions like pe's.
War between countries is one thing. An individual or group that lives in hiding trying to kill as many people in a certain country as possible - and destroy the symbols of their culture as well -because they hate their very essence and being is so different that there is no room for the comparison.
A comparable flipside situation to this (if this is the work of Bin Laden) would be this:
(a) the US allows Western-supremacist groups (not that there are such things that I know of) within it to burgeon and prosper and does nothing to curb them.
(b) the US allows these groups to buy weapons and train men for dastardly acts against Arabs and other nonbelievers.
(c) one of these groups goes and crashes a explosive-laden plane into the Rock of the Ka'aba in Mecca during the Hajj, setting off a stampede and destroying the black stone, thus destroying a symbol of Islam and killing tens of thousands.
That would be comparable. Not Kissinger's or McNamara's policies in the course of a brutal proxy war with the Soviet Union (how nice was the SU during that war? How can you defeat a power like the SU if you are always trying to be nice and play by the rules?).
20537. tiggeriffic - 9/11/2001 11:19:14 PM
Can I just say goodnight and God bless us all .... its been a long and tragic day..... and tomorrow we face the new world we have been left with...
20538. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:20:23 PM
FU is the moralist; I don't think I've mentioned morality per se. As for my being a relativist, yes, certainly, in most issues involving countries and politics I'm guilty as charged.
I do see a distinction between killing people in a war, or even "police action", and doing a sneak attack like today, so I don't grant you the equivalency. But it wouldn't change my opinion if I did.
20539. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:23:05 PM
I think the distinction between states and individuals is mostly legalistic.
There is no one more fanatically anti-Soviet/anti-communist than me in the Mote. No one. And I would accept Rustler's 20536 if the Vietnam war, fought on that scale, actually had some point and actually advanced the Cold war against the Soviets. But it didn't.
20540. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:23:06 PM
Goodnight, Tigger.
The story about the truck with explosives is still out there; has anyone seen a link?
God, Fox has a picture of a person caught midfall.
20541. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:25:24 PM
PE,
I think the distinction between states and individuals is mostly legalistic.
I don't. But it explains your question.
You seem to be judging a country's actions based on their effectiveness after the fact.
20542. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:27:22 PM
You seem to be judging a country's actions based on their effectiveness after the fact.
??? I thought I was judging the justifiability of state actions.
20543. mgleason - 9/11/2001 11:29:55 PM
The man mentioned earlier who appeared on the Beeb is Anjem Choudary from Al-Muhajiroun.
20544. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:30:09 PM
Boy, the more of this stuff I read, the less I regret the loss of thousands of "American" lives.
The fact that you don't regret the loss of thousands of lives says much more about your moral defects than it does about any "stuff" you read.
20545. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:30:50 PM
Okay, the justifiability of the state actions. But you are basing it on effectiveness of the actions after the fact, as well on whether or not you thought their reasons "had some point".
I'm not complaining, mind you, but if that's what you're up to, how does that make you any different from Cartman?
20546. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:31:36 PM
It says more about my opinion of most Americans.
20547. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:32:21 PM
I think the distinction between states and individuals is mostly legalistic.
Well, duh!
The difference between a cop and a bandit is legalistic too. It is, however, a very good moral and practical distinction, as well as being one of legalism.
20548. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:34:11 PM
It says more about my opinion of most Americans.
Again, this is more a reflection on your defects than on Americans.
20549. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:34:21 PM
Message # 20545: I'm not sure what you mean by "effectiveness of the actions after the fact".
I'm not complaining, mind you, but if that's what you're up to, how does that make you any different from Cartman?
An enormous difference. I don't think US actions abroad are regularly bad; in fact I think they are mostly neutral or for the good. And even when they are bad I don't think they're done to advance the interests of multinational corporations, as many left-wingers do.
20550. Absensia - 9/11/2001 11:35:34 PM
Someone at the NYC news conference on CNN says a van was stopped, people arrested, but no explosives and not on GW bridge.
20551. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:36:03 PM
Message # 20547
The point was that the distinction is legalistic and practical, but this distinction has little moral consequence. After all, "countries" don't carry out policies, individuals carry them out in the name of countries.
20552. Absensia - 9/11/2001 11:36:38 PM
And trapped survivors are making cell phone calls...some to relatives as far as Seattle.
20553. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:40:37 PM
20548. Rama -
i If you are asking why retaliate, then it is both deterrence and payment. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I don't see anything particularly unfortunate in someone like this getting flattened on Manhattan.
20554. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:40:50 PM
The point was that the distinction is legalistic and practical, but this distinction has little moral consequence.
If this were true, then the decision of a mob would have the same moral weight as that of a court.
20555. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:41:25 PM
oops, Guardian format.
20556. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:41:38 PM
You beat me to it, ABs.
PE,
Oh, I see. You don't do it all the time and you vary your reasons based on what you think is relevant, rather than the same old template. Okay.
It's not that I don't judge a country's actions; I do. But my judgment of them is separate from whether or not I think they have the right to act in their own perceived best interest. Which, I believe, is relativism right down the line.
There's no incompatibility in my support for Vietnam's hypothetical bombings and my support for turning Bin Laden & Co's world into an ashheap.
20557. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:43:12 PM
And trapped survivors are making cell phone calls...some to relatives as far as Seattle.
Gruesome. That's going to magnify the suffering.
20558. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:44:06 PM
Message # 20554: Well, then, you must believe that military actions of a state against an enemy must be tantamount to the actions of a mob, since no court usually judges the enemy before the action is taken.
20559. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:44:11 PM
Yeah, let's nuke PE's family, while were at it.
20560. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:44:27 PM
I don't see anything particularly unfortunate in someone like this getting flattened on Manhattan.
I do not find a catalogue of your disregard for human life to be indicative of anything other than your lack of moral discernment, of which I am already convinced.
20561. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:46:19 PM
Message # 20556
Oh, I see. You don't do it all the time and you vary your reasons based on what you think is relevant, rather than the same old template. Okay.
I have no idea what you are saying above.
It's not that I don't judge a country's actions; I do. But my judgment of them is separate from whether or not I think they have the right to act in their own perceived best interest. Which, I believe, is relativism right down the line. There's no incompatibility in my support for Vietnam's hypothetical bombings and my support for turning Bin Laden & Co's world into an ashheap.
Okay. You can go away. No further need to talk to you.
20562. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:47:17 PM
Phew. It was exhausting.
20563. Absensia - 9/11/2001 11:48:01 PM
I think cell phones may help save many. They were rare during the Oklahoma bombings...perhaps these calls will help locate people.
20564. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:48:01 PM
20560. Rama -
Well, we all know how justifiable retaliation goes. It goes *boom!*
20565. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:48:43 PM
Well, then, you must believe that military actions of a state against an enemy must be tantamount to the actions of a mob, since no court usually judges the enemy before the action is taken.
That doesn't follow at all. Nations generally take military action after their enemy has taken some action, bur courts are quite willing to issue restraining orders against actions not yet taken. At any rate, that is quite unrelated to the fact that there is a valid moral distinction between the actions of the state and the actions of individuals.
20566. Absensia - 9/11/2001 11:50:11 PM
I predict the number of cell/mobile phones will go up and the number of visas granted by the US will go down...big time.
20567. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:55:08 PM
At any rate, that is quite unrelated to the fact that there is a valid moral distinction between the actions of the state and the actions of individuals.
I like the way you are trying to impose a dress code on warfare, as if anyone who can't afford jets and uniforms has no right to respond to attacks made on them.
20568. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 11:55:58 PM
Amazing new amateur footage on CNN of the first plane. One realizes this was not just a 'tragedy' - but a brutal attack. Those planes just brutally rammed into those buildings.
20569. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:56:18 PM
I was thinking about visas this afternoon. Even thinking about how we were talking about amnesty for Mexicans could change--not that there is any relationship, but we might get a lot more unfriendly.
Scott was right about the knives.
20570. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:57:18 PM
Yes, I saw that footage, too. It was awful.
I have trouble calling it a tragedy; a tragedy always seems to imply a mistake. The planning here was just incredible.
20571. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:59:19 PM
Message # 20565
That doesn't follow at all. Nations generally take military action after their enemy has taken some action, bur courts are quite willing to issue restraining orders against actions not yet taken.
I don't see the relevance of your remarks. I agree there is a moral difference between the behaviour of a court and the behaviour of a mob. I don't agree that there is a necessary moral difference between state actions and individual actions. Nation-states undertaking military actions are not behaving like courts (nor should they be so acting).
20572. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:00:32 AM
That NY press conference was so sad. The fire chief was devastated.
Even a tough cookie like Pike - who never cried, even as a baby - was holding back tears.
20573. Åse - 9/12/2001 12:00:46 AM
Yes, tragedy seems just wrong.
20574. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:02:07 AM
I wonder what it is that makes you so unconscionably violent, sakonige. If I were an American I would be threatening your life by now.
20575. Absensia - 9/12/2001 12:05:10 AM
Cal,
Yes there will be, I think, a tightening of visas from the Middle East and the Subcontinent. The US has thousands of students from those countries, all paying out of state tuition, and helping the economy. Likewise many doctors from medical schools there come here for an additional residency where more docs are sorely needed. That is just the tip of the iceburg, but I know you know what I mean.
20576. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:05:12 AM
I don't think rescuers have ever taken such a hit. They always expect to risk their lives, but no one could have anticipated the buildings melting.
The count of firefighters missing is up past 300.
20577. sakonige - 9/12/2001 12:13:38 AM
20574. RustlerPike -
Hilariously ironic post.
20578. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:16:21 AM
I think people like you, sakonige, should really shut up with your anti-US emotions for at least a month. Americans are shocked, and when that is over they will be in pain, and then they will heal. People have the right to go through that process, to deal with their pain and collect their thoughts now: you have no right to interfere with that healing process by hurling accusations at people who have just been shot.
20579. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:22:39 AM
Abs,
Naw. It is an entirely appropriate reaction. Right now, anything that causes the rest of the world to suffer and remember how much they rely on us is a good thing.
20580. mgleason - 9/12/2001 12:25:06 AM
Former CIA director James Woolsey is talking about the possibility of Iraqi involvement, perhaps backing Bin Laden. Interesting speculation.
20581. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:25:33 AM
This thing you are doing here - twisting your blade in the psychological gashes made by those planes - is exactly what the Arab Members of Knesset do to us after every terror attack. They use our democracy and openness against us and we fools let them.
An Israeli entering Palestinian territory is killed immediately (if he is lucky). But Palestinians mill about Israel freely, and Arabs get to sit in the Knesset and voice support for our enemies as we bury our dead.
Same goes for you in this forum: if I were posting on an Arab forum and voiced some kind of support for, say, a US action against Saddam, I would simply be banned from the forum instantaneously.
20582. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:26:26 AM
(my last post was for Sakkonige)
20583. joezan - 9/12/2001 12:27:32 AM
I distinctly remember, not that long ago (maybe just after the embassy bombings?), a pundits' discussion on TV which centered on the horrendous terrorism possibilities when you have an overabundance (as in the Arab world) of young fanatics willing to give their lives for their cause.
One thing that was specifically mentioned was the ease with which a group of such people could commandeer a plane and use it as a bomb. One target specifically mentioned was the White House.
I mean...what can really be done about this, short of armed undercover agents on every commercial flight?
20584. sakonige - 9/12/2001 12:29:02 AM
Gee, RustlerPike. What a sensitive guy you are under all that bloodthirsty warmongering.
20585. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:30:57 AM
Well, for starters, cockpits are going to be entirely different. Count on that.
Also, I don't think it will ever again be an easy matter for terrorists to commandeer a plane with only knives--and it was their reliance on knives that allowed them to evade security. They were counting on the passengers being compliant.
So it will become a lot tougher.
20586. Absensia - 9/12/2001 12:32:45 AM
Cal,
What I meant, and wasn't clear enough, was that it will cause a catch22...I think the US will react in ways that will also hurt the economy, but may have no choice, at least for awhile.
20587. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:35:32 AM
Abs,
Gruesome as it sounds, this disaster may not hurt the economy. It will grant immediate keys to the "lockbox" and spur a ton of government spending. And reports are that the dollar has plummeted, which was just yesterday considered a desirable thing.
God, do we need to see this thing from yet another different angle?
20588. sakonige - 9/12/2001 12:36:24 AM
heh. Someone on CNN just pointed out the likelihood that a plane will be flown into Ariel Sharon's residence.
20589. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 12:37:28 AM
Message # 20581: How true. Soon after Intifada II began, I posted some remarks in a forum controlled by a Palestinian. She deleted half my messages, but I reposted some of them several times and she gave up. You can see it here. Rustler would really really like my remarks. Several Arabs accused me of all manner of diabolisms.
20590. HollyW - 9/12/2001 12:39:55 AM
Hi. I'm home from work. Is this the right place to say this...?
A doctor from my hospital was on one of the planes that crashed into the WTC. Also the husband of one of our nurses.
20591. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 12:41:07 AM
That link is not right. here.
20592. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:44:20 AM
PE--wow. That's amazing.
20593. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:45:17 AM
The first link worked fine, PE.
Holly,
Oh, no. I'm sorry.
20594. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:47:27 AM
Pe: so you get a kick out of irritating both sides of this conflict? I'll have to follow that link later.
Is there a whole subculture here, of people with too much time on their hands living in dozens of web fora simultaneously?
In any case - the fact that the third plane was not shot down before it reached the Pentagon, an hour after the NY attacks, is a serious air defense snafu.
20595. Absensia - 9/12/2001 12:47:40 AM
Holly,
I am very sorry to hear that.
20596. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:49:05 AM
RP,
How could they shoot it down? It wasn't until the third one that they realized what was going on.
20597. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:50:47 AM
Hairyfat put on a wonderful show of grief on CNN just now. Everyone seems to be buying it. No more pictures of jubilant Pals.
Are you buying it, everyone?
20598. ronski - 9/12/2001 12:51:13 AM
The link is amazing. It is astonishing, the depravity of fundamentalists everywhere.
20599. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:53:20 AM
Cal:
They shoulda had it figgered out by the second, if not the first. These people are paid to expect stuff like this.
I believe Israel shot down a Libyan airliner in 1973 or 1967 because it suspected it was en route to do something like this.
20600. joezan - 9/12/2001 12:53:50 AM
Pike:
I didn't buy it when I saw the idiots dancing in the streets earlier, and I sure don't buy it now.
20601. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:54:14 AM
RP,
Actually yes, I do buy it. I'm not going to argue about it because it's just my gut. But he looked horrified--undoubtedly in no small part because he'd seen the disgusting reaction of Palestinians and knew it was on him to do what he could to offset it.
20602. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:55:43 AM
RP,
But that's because they are Israel. We're not. And the day that we become like Israel, the terrorists win.
No doubt we'll be more vigilant, but I don't think anyone could have foreseen this. Remember that the Pentagon is very close to the National Airport.
20603. mgleason - 9/12/2001 12:57:47 AM
I was watching NBC when the third plane hit the Pentagon, and they'd been talking about it being a terrorist act for some time.
And I do believe in Arafat's grief; he's thinking that the jig might very well be up.
20604. mgleason - 9/12/2001 1:03:50 AM
Oh, man, Peter Jennings is hinting that he's not satisfied with the Pentagon's denial that it shot down the plane in PA. He's calling it an 'open question.'
20605. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:05:25 AM
My local news channel is reporting that one of the cell phone callers on the Pittsburgh plane (which was coming to SF) said that he and a couple other people were going to try something. There is the suggestion that the passengers actions forced the terrorists to bring the plane down early.
20606. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:06:30 AM
Well: the upside of all this is that we ahve agreement between Jewish and Muslim fanatics on one, hyper-important point:
this psuedoerasmus person is truly a disgrace to all people who believe in the power and love of one God.
(from that Salon forum).
20607. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 1:09:08 AM
Message # 20594
Pe: so you get a kick out of irritating both sides of this conflict? I'll have to follow that link later.
I almost never take sides completely. I always see something wrong with both.
Is there a whole subculture here, of people with too much time on their hands living in dozens of web fora simultaneously?
I switch from one forum to another, but I only post in one or two at a time. Notice I haven't posted in the Mote for a long time.
20608. glendajean - 9/12/2001 1:10:53 AM
The latest Washington Post is reporting that the plane that hit the Pentagon was first aiming directly at the White House and then took an expertly performed short right turn to the Pentagon. (Perhaps a ploy, thinking that the 4th plane would actually do the job).
The Post is also reporting that the people on the plane were forced to huddle in the back of the plane and told to call loved ones and let them know of their death.
20609. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 1:11:50 AM
Message # 20466:
I can enumerate Allende's illegal actions, if you want.
Just out of curiosity, I wouldn't mind if you did.
Message # 20467:
Whatever. It's not relevant to the exchange about "corporate interests".
Maybe not that specific example, but as you say, whatever.
Look, don't get me wrong. In the spectrum of motives that can be ascribed to any given gov't policy, I actually consider "corporate interest" to be a very rational one. Money I understand -- the bizarre dichotomy between our policies vis-á-vis Cuba and China, for example, a bit less so.
But regardless of whether we ascribe factors of anti-communism, catering to certain voter blocs, or making Guatemala safe for United Fruit, the fact is that there is a lot of corporate interest inherent in many (not all) policy decisions.
Well, you said "let ____ do" certain things. That implies prior permission or encouragement. That didn't happen.
Yeah, I thought that's how you were approaching it, but that's not what I meant to imply. I meant that US inaction after the event implied tacit approval, which it most certainly did.
I can disapprove of people being killed extrajudicially and still think they are vermin.
Sure, but in the example of Chile, that situation is part and parcel of the whole scenario. Pinochet's thugs weeded out and murdered dissidents for a reason. You think that reason may have been to instantly secure his grip on power? Well, then that sort of delegitimizes the coup, doesn't it? (Assuming, as always, that Pinochet had only the best of intentions and merely wanted to wrest the mantle of power from the autocrat Allende, the better to return power to the good citizens of Chile.)
20610. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 1:12:07 AM
Message # 20535:
But the USA has also killed hundreds of thousands of people with little or no justification.
Hey, that's supposed to be my line, you little prick!
BTW, very interesting Suite101 link. You may find it disconcerting that we have pretty much identical views on that subject. I know I do.
20611. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:13:38 AM
"Would also it have been morally justified for hypothetical Cambodian and Vietnamese terrorists in 1972 to have killed innocent Americans in the course of (say) bombing the Pentagon?"
Define "terrorists". The usual definitions I see:
1) non-state-sanctioned forces which use acts of violence directed against civilians, for the purpose of using the ensuing media attention to affect popular opinion.
2) violent acts of irregular forces, such as partisans, guerrillas, or saboteurs, when you don't support their goals.
Using definition #1, the attacks today qualify as terrorism, but hypothetical attacks by the Vietnamese would not qualify as terrorism.
Using definition #2, both acts would qualify.
I don't much care for definition #2, as it is completely relativistic. The Czech partisans who assassinated Heydrich were terrorists? I don't think so. In this context, it is a phrase you use if you don't support the goals of the irregular forces. If you *do* support the goals, you call them "freedom fighters".
But under either definition, McNamara and Kissinger would not qualify as terrorists. "War criminals" certainly, at least in the eyes of the Vietnamese and Cambodians.
20612. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:13:52 AM
The Post is also reporting that the people on the plane were forced to huddle in the back of the plane and told to call loved ones and let them know of their death.
Oh, those motherfuckers.
20613. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:14:14 AM
Well, I hope you're right, mg, that the jig is up. It will be up if and when it is established that Iraq has some kind of connection to this act.
This could unwind slowly - the way the Gulf War only happened some months after Iraq invaded Kuwait. A US operation against Bin Laden could draw in Saddam.
It could even be designed to do that.
20614. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:15:23 AM
War criminals. Dammit, I was looking for that term earlier and it wouldn't come.
20615. HollyW - 9/12/2001 1:17:12 AM
Hey, I can't plow through all of today's posts. Has anyone here lost anyone close? Is everybody okay?
I swear, I am interested in the political stuff, I just wanna know. Thanks.
20616. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:17:33 AM
Thank god for those cameramen who showed the Pal celebrations and managed to transmit those pictures. I'm sure they're not allowed to do that anymore.
20617. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 1:18:49 AM
Raskolnikov: you and others are too fixated on certain terms and definitions. I don't care whether you call certain groups "terrorists" or "freedom fighters" or "war criminals". the question reduces to moral justification, as a person sees it, doesn't it.
20618. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:19:23 AM
Holly,
Not that we know of, but we haven't heard from janjon, who lives in Manhattan, and PsychProf's son works in the area, apparently. PP hasn't been around all day, which is very unusual.
20619. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:19:36 AM
Holly:
Has anyone here lost anyone close? Is everybody okay?
No casualties that we know of, though we have still to hear from janjon. Marj is OK.
I find it remarkable that the WTC is down yet the Mote server is up. What could this mean?
20620. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:20:05 AM
I'm just pleased that I'm not the only one being chastised for semantics. Although he was much nicer to you, Rask. (sniff)
20621. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 1:20:23 AM
Message # 20606: Well, I'm an atheist so I am happy to be disgraceful to the deluded. But when warring fanatics agree that a non-fanatic is disgraceful perhaps it's time to just nuke them all the fanatics. Exterminate the brutes!
20622. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:20:33 AM
for bringing up semantics, that is.
20623. HollyW - 9/12/2001 1:21:41 AM
Thanks. I just noticed the posts in the Cafe, too.
20624. mgleason - 9/12/2001 1:22:00 AM
I don't think Woolsey was on the air speculating about possible Iraqi involvement by accident, RP. It's interesting to sit back and watch the government spin. They're going to drag Saddam in, whether he wants it or not.
20625. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:23:36 AM
RP,
Don't see why.
I must say that the first thing I thought of when I saw the celebrations is "Oh, that's just like an Arab". I can't even say why, but the cheerful, unrepentant bloodthirstiness just strikes me as them being true to their cultural form.
20626. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:25:34 AM
Post Article
This is the one GJ was referring to, about the passengers being forced to tell their loved ones they were going to die, and the original plans to take it to the White House.
20627. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 1:26:32 AM
Message # 20609
See here, particularly points after #5.
Message # 20467:
the fact is that there is a lot of corporate interest inherent in many (not all) policy decisions.
I can only think of one: Guatemala and United Fruit.
20628. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 1:29:01 AM
An ABC person says there is talk of beefing up the sky marshal program. Good idea. But better to beef up the baggage and passenger checkers in the terminals.
20629. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:29:24 AM
Between the Post article and what I'm hearing on ABC, it seems like the pilots were definitely experienced.
Also, the Pittsburgh plane seems to have exploded or something--a puff of smoke was seen. But apparently the plane turned around and was heading back to Washington. The ABC news guy thinks they might have put the real pilot back in control and then there was a fight.
20630. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:30:23 AM
Hey, BobbyJ! Nice to see you.
One other thing that the Post article reminds me of--how did they get into the cockpit? The door is locked.
20631. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:30:25 AM
Oh, I don't think Arafat's ashen face was much of an act. I'm sure he doesn't give a fuck about the loss of life. I'm quite sure he understands the ramifications of all of America seeing his people celebrating over the attacks today. He also knows that most Americans aren't going to make much of a distinction between Palestinian terrorists and Bin Laden's crew (if, indeed, it was Bin Laden's crew that pulled this off).
Just because he's slime doesn't mean he doesn't have the political sense to denounce the attacks and then go hide.
Not that we'll target Arafat. Not even that the Israelis will take him out for us. We won't and I doubt they will.
We'll show off some kind of brand spanking new technology and launch several 'surgical' strikes against camps in Afghanistan. What else are we going to do, occupy the Middle East? And for most people this Pearl Harbor II will become a great deal less important. What happened today should have been a wake up call for the US but I think the US is likely to hit the snooze button after a few minutes. Because, when you get right down to it, there isn't a whole lot more we can do to prevent someone from hijacking a plane and piloting it into a satisfyingly large target. Not sustainably, not here.
20632. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:31:58 AM
I must say that the first thing I thought of when I saw the celebrations is "Oh, that's just like an Arab". I can't even say why, but the cheerful, unrepentant bloodthirstiness just strikes me as them being true to their cultural form.
You can't say why?
How about because it's true?
90% of all stereotypes are, quite frankly, true as the Word of God Itself.
I personally want a 100:1 death ration for our retribution. Men, women, children-- I don't give a fuck. The children will die without their parents anyway, and if they don't die, they'll just grow up to be terrorists anyway.
Let us begin wiping the globe clean of these fuckers. They want to meet Allah; let us arrange the introduction.
20633. mgleason - 9/12/2001 1:32:05 AM
That's an interesting point that John Nance on ABC raises about why the cockpit doors can't be made sturdier, a matter of guarding against a change in pressure, apparently.
20634. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:32:14 AM
Has anyone yet bothered to connect today's events with the Feds busting into that computer complex in Texas looking for evidence of complicity in terrorism? You know, the place that registered the .iq suffix?
20635. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:32:28 AM
Yeah, we were saying that a while back in this thread, angel. (nice to see you.) American intolerance for inconvenience will out. In the short term, though, I think heightened security will be sustained because travel is so light right now. The minute demand perks up, aggravation will end any security measures.
20636. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:33:32 AM
"Raskolnikov: you and others are too fixated on certain terms and definitions. I don't care whether you call certain groups "terrorists" or "freedom fighters" or "war criminals". the question reduces to moral justification, as a person sees it, doesn't it."
Not sure how you can have a useful discussion of whether person A can be described by attribute B without defining attribute B.
But if all you want to know about is whether I think McNamara and Kissinger were morally justified in their decisions, I would say "no". As, I imagine, would most people in this thread. Comparing them to bin Laden just confuses the issue.
If you want to know what morally distinguishes them from bin Laden, I would agree with the others here that primarily has to do with not targetting civilians as an end in itself, particularly without any sort of rational justification for a "total war" strategy. To me, that is a pretty big distinction.
20637. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:33:51 AM
Cockpit doors can be made sturdier but as long as there's communication lines between the cockpit and the rest of the plane, hijackers will still have their best leverage available... telling the pilot to either open the damn door or listen to people die.
20638. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:34:33 AM
Haven't read about the Fed busting yet.
Ace,
Oh, I know. But the complete lack of awareness of how their happiness would be perceived, the gleeful joy that America--who they probably don't even hate all that much--has suffered because after all, they are godless infidels...I dunno.
They drive the same way.
20639. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:35:19 AM
A5: I think you're wrong. I think George Bush Sr., who is your real leader in case you didn't know, will use this as justification for an exteremely humiliating incursion into the fundamental Islamist heartland. If it's Bin Laden - then it'll probably be against Afghanistan. I guess.
20640. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:35:57 AM
"That's an interesting point that John Nance on ABC raises about why the cockpit doors can't be made sturdier, a matter of guarding against a change in pressure, apparently."
Nonsense. You can have thick doors with several dozen tiny airholes to equalize pressure.
We will have:
Armed pilots;
armed stewardresses (at least one or two in the crew);
armed undercover skymarshals;
army anti-aircraft missile bases outside of every major and minor city;
and soon National Identity cards.
20641. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:37:23 AM
"hijackers will still have their best leverage available... telling the pilot to either open the damn door or listen to people die."
Not with five or six armed personnel on-board.
Quite frankly, I don't know why they didn't carry guns before.
20642. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:38:14 AM
I will now try not to Mote for several hours. Or watch CNN.
(yeah, right).
Seriously, I am up shit creek financially.
20643. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:38:54 AM
I don't think so.
20644. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:39:37 AM
Of course, all of those measures (save the National Identity Cards) are "fighting the last war," and hence probably useless.
The problem is that we are living in the age of the Second Crusade, and I hate to be racial, but what we have is an intractable, unsolvable racial animosity between Arabs and the West.
I don't care to surrender and I don't care to lose tens of thousands of more Americans. Which means, unfortunately, that the Arabs are going to have to exit the planet. Tough shit. Shit happens.
There are too many poor Islamic men willing to die?
Let's reduce that number.
20645. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:40:06 AM
Ace,
Um, that would be because a gun fired in the wrong place could crash the plane far more effectively than the terrorists.
20646. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:40:35 AM
I should point out that this, if it indeed was orchestrated by Bin Laden, wasn't much of a sneak attack. The guy's been promising this for how long now?
Not to split hairs, you know.
Re: Macnamara and Kissinger and Bombs and Bin Laden
Yes, everyone in this situation turns out to be an asshole, except for the civilians, who turn out to be dead. I don't know what the big deal is about this point. I haven't seen anyone preaching that America should respond forcibly because we have clean hands and the terrorists do not.
There's a pragmatic value in letting people know that it's absolutely time to stop fucking with us. We won't convince everyone among the terrorists to lay off, and we won't incapacitate all the ones who remain unconvincable, but I'd lay decent odds that the body count will in the end be higher if we do not act decisively and militarily in the immediate future.
20647. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:41:57 AM
Yes, I completely agree with A5's last paragraph.
20648. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:42:00 AM
But I have to say that discussing the justification (or lack thereof) for American actions in Vietnam seems like getting Woody Allen when you asked for John Wayne.
20649. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:42:11 AM
"Um, that would be because a gun fired in the wrong place could crash the plane far more effectively than the terrorists."
Um, that's incorrect. Sky-marshals carry guns loaded with glazer safety slugs, which will usually not penetrate a cabin.
20650. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:42:59 AM
George Bush Sr., who is your real leader in case you didn't know,
Whatever, this is total nonsense. The real president was duly elected last year... of course, his name happens to be Cheney.
20651. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:44:12 AM
Glazers are, I think, tiny steel pellets in a thick gelatin rather than one single big steel bullet. More like a shotgun shell than a conventional round.
And they've been around since 1978 or so.
20652. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:45:32 AM
I screwed up that last post. Take 2:
But I have to say that discussing the justification (or lack thereof) for American actions in Vietnam, AT A TIME LIKE THIS, is like getting Woody Allen when you asked for John Wayne.
20653. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:46:29 AM
It may well come to armed men flying on each plane, Ace. I'll have to think about that a lot more, though, because just one of those armed men, with the element of surprise, could be a real pain in the ass if he wanted to... and there would be a lot of them... and it strikes me that being an armed fucking guard on a passenger jet would be a lot more stressful than, oh, say, being a postal worker. And we know what those folks are like.
20654. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:46:36 AM
BREAKING NEWS:
4th airplane crashed because three men decided to rush the cockpit. "We're all gonna die," one man tells his wife by cell-phone, "But we're gonna do something."
20655. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:47:20 AM
Ace,
I like "usually". Besides, the hijackers might have guns, and I'm thinking they won't be careful about the bullets.
It's a shit awful bad idea to put armed cops on planes--unless the plan is to keep drunks from getting uppity. To say nothing of the fact that in the best case, if it were effective, it would just shift the terrorists focus to using bombs--they don't need to always aim so exactly.
Before we go putting guns on airplanes, I'd like to know how they got into the cockpit and how they were able to get the passengers and pilots cooperation with nothing more than some small knives.
20656. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:47:35 AM
Ynet reports Arafat has given severe orders to quell any further celebrations on the streets of the WB&G. Officials of Hamas and Islamic Jihad expressed satisfaction with the attacks, though the organizations' formal stand was denouncement.
20657. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:47:39 AM
I'm sure they'd pack tasers anyway.
20658. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:47:48 AM
Those men gave their lives to save either a) the Capitol Building or b) (more likely) the White House. It's been confirmed 4th plane heading for DC.
20659. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 1:48:06 AM
PE:
Thanks for the link. So basically, the Allende regime was a corrupt band of cronyists who subverted judicial authority and circumvented the Congress' power, in order to establish an authoritarian gov't?
Okay. Fair enough. Aside from the lack of summary executions in Estadio Del Soccer Riot, how substantially different is this, really, from Pinochet's gang of thugs?
As to the other, Guatemala/United Fruit is the most obvious one, and it's a big 'un, imho, because it set the stage for how we handled the rest of Central America, which vicious oligarchies we bankrolled, etc.
The US' current involvement in Colombia is another example, I think. It's possible that we really are dumb enough to think we're fighting the War on Some Drugs there, but it's just more rational to be there to secure eventual access to what is supposedly the largest untapped oil reserve in the hemisphere.
Our continued support of Suharto, even after his manifold butchery, could be at least partially ascribed to his willingness to buy lots of weapons from our contractors, and allow American extraction conglomerates, such as Freeport-McMoran, to set up and operate as they please.
No doubt you'll dispute and scoff, but the fact is that American corporations inject enormous amounts of money into political campaigns. They do not do this out of the goodness of their hearts. They expect something in return, as well they should. Sometimes they get it, sometimes at the expense of someone else's life. Only an idiot would dispute that. I just think some accountability might be in order, at least once in a while.
20660. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:49:27 AM
Before we go putting guns on airplanes, I'd like to know how they got into the cockpit and how they were able to get the passengers and pilots cooperation with nothing more than some small knives.
Because no one wants to be the first to die? I'm sure they did something suitably gruesome to start in order to demonstrate their resolve. That would have helped matters.
20661. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:49:55 AM
A plainclothes armed guard on every airline flight doesn't strike me as bad idea right now. If you give people a fucking box lunch in the terminal, you can eliminate a couple flight attendants and keep prices low.
20662. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:51:02 AM
"It's a shit awful bad idea to put armed cops on planes--unless the plan is to keep drunks from getting uppity. To say nothing of the fact that in the best case, if it were effective, it would just shift the terrorists focus to using bombs--they don't need to always aim so exactly. "
Sure. There's always a DIFFERENT risk, so why guard against any particular risk?
If we have NMD, they'll use airplanes; if we put guns on airplanes, they'll use bombs. It's a vicious cycle, we can't do anything, why try?
Yeah, it's a bad idea to put guns on planes... after all, what did today cost? Merely twenty or fifty BILLION dollars and 15,000+ lives.
One or two or three large insurers may go bankrupt tomorrow. The economy may tank; we may enter a DEPRESSION.
But Cal and her faggy liberal worldview is oh-so-concerned about a pilot carrying a gun and "going nuts."
20663. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:51:31 AM
Ace:
If so, that was pretty damn heroic.
20664. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:51:33 AM
Ace--yeah, I mentioned that earlier; both the guy calling his wife and the guy calling his mom implied that. I haven't heard any confirmation about it, though.
20665. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:51:37 AM
Armed stewardesses? Take it to the Sex thread.
Where would they be packing those (gulp)...
Never mind.
20666. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:53:06 AM
50 billion seems awfully low.
20667. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:53:20 AM
Ace's #20646 is precision munition.
20668. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:54:08 AM
20 or 50 Billion? Am I understating?
What the hell would the price tag be on this?
Assuming $1,000,000 per life lost (a rather low figure), that's $15 billion in loss of life alone.
The WTC was worth, perhaps, $10 billion; the cleanup will be $10 billion; the investigation will cost $5 billion.
Economic repercussions? America's financial markets are closed, at least for a week.
Jesus.
But no way do we want GUNS on airplanes! Eeeek! Guns are BAAAAAAD!
20669. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:54:36 AM
Ace,
What on earth are you talking about?
Angel,
Because no one wants to be the first to die?
No, I understand that. And until now, the recommendation by "experts" has always been to cooperate. But in the Pentagon plane, they knew they were going to die. Not that I expect logic under pressure, but they outnumbered these guys by quite a bit.
I'm more curious about the cockpit, though.
20670. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:55:35 AM
A5:
Yes, crosspost. I lowballed, because the number "1 trillion" seemed ludicrously farfetched at first; but now I think the total real costs will be more in the vicinity of a trillion than 50 billion.
20671. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:56:28 AM
Just saw an interview where a woman who talked to her hijacked husband says that the terrorists claimed to have a bomb on the plain. They were probably bluffing, but who wants to risk it if you don't know you are going to die anyway? Prior to this, most hijackings ended up with very few deaths.
20672. mgleason - 9/12/2001 1:56:46 AM
What is it with these fatigues-wearing guys with scraggly facial hair: Castro, Bin Laden, Araphat?
20673. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:59:59 AM
MSNBC is now showing the nighttime skyline WITH the World Trade Center.
Which no longer exists, of course.
20674. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:00:37 AM
Rask,
I know, I've said several times that cooperation has always been assumed to be the best option. But that was the Pittsburgh plane (the one that said they had a bomb). I was curious about the Pentagon plane, given that they knew it was going to crash.
As it is, it appears that it was on the Pittsburgh plane that they fought, even though they thought the plane had a bomb, whereas the Pentagon plane had poor Barbara Olson calling up her husband to see how she could get the pilots to fight.
20675. Andonly - 9/12/2001 2:02:30 AM
"All my sympathy for you is gone."
Three hundred million Americans: we're all Israelis now.
Ace: thanks for posting -54. I've been hoping that's what happened.
"There's a pragmatic value in letting people know that it's absolutely time to stop fucking with us."
We will destroy Saddam and the Taliban. I'm wondering if we'll arrange somehow to hit Afghanistan from the north; all that kissyface Shrub did with Putin--wonder if it actually might pay off, say, in a joint manouver over Kazakhstan's airspace.
The media seem to have forgotten about Syria and Iran. I'm hearing nothing about Syria or Iran in the news--no crocodile condolences from their leaders, no domestic questions about terrorist training or funding by those states. Yet, we have outstanding business with Iran, as Israel has with Syria.
An FT report has Arab leaders insisting bin Laden could not have brought this thing off on his own. No one is naming names, though; they're pissing in their pants just now.
20676. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 2:02:42 AM
Ace:
So how close are you to ground zero, if I might ask?
20677. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:03:18 AM
Armed guards on an airplane can't keep the World Trade Center safe. It can only stave off what may well have been inevitable, given the fact that we live in a free country and that we have many fanatic enemies. Everyone is going to run around looking for a quick fix to what happened today... like building a better mousetrap in the cockpit... or carpet-bombing an entire population. But we've never been safe in America, we've just been lucky.
20678. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:04:49 AM
A trillion was my relatively uninformed guess, TBH. Not that that holds water, I was just surprised to see you, of all people, using such a lower number.
20679. Andonly - 9/12/2001 2:05:34 AM
"I should point out that this, if it indeed was orchestrated by Bin Laden, wasn't much of a sneak attack. The guy's been promising this for how long now?"
Three months, if I remember correctly, and the State Department responded with one of its warnings against travelling in the mideast. The promise was that the attack on "American interests" would be "surprising". And then, three weeks ago, a bin Laden associate made a similar threat to a BBC interviewer, saying that a planned assault on American interests would be "huge".
20680. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:05:35 AM
In the 70s, we put armed sky marshalls on flights. The number of hijackings stopped (of course, metal detecters were also added).
20681. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:06:22 AM
Well, lucky combined with the sense that it's best to only jab us, rather than stab us in the gut. A sense that has clearly changed--or maybe we've been so tame that they really thought we wouldn't react much.
Krauthammer writes that he is dismayed at Hughes' talk of "investigation"--I agree, and said so a while back. Enough bullshit about handling this legally; it's a military issue.
20682. HollyW - 9/12/2001 2:06:30 AM
Okay, I've got to go to bed.
Here's the personal angle, out here in the greater Boston area:
A doctor at my hospital died. He was young, and one of the nice docs, one you didn't mind when you had to call him, because you knew he wouldn't mind. Dr. Rimmele.
The husband of one of our nurses died. She's the person who hired everybody, so we all know her, but she's not a floor nurse, so I don't know her well.
Both of these men were on the planes.
Work today was very odd.
New York people are being sent to Boston hospitals, so we are thinking that Boston people may end up at our hospital (small, suburban). We have people who need to go to Boston for angioplasties but can't--no room at the inn.
I am currently hearing a plane overhead--not what one particularly wants to hear, 20 miles from Logan!
20683. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:08:06 AM
The word I've heard all along is that there was no way Bin Laden or any other organization could have pulled this off alone, Andonly. Admittedly, as time passed today and people started contemplating the difficulties inherent in getting different terrorist groups to cooperate, that word has been a little more muted. But they hit a triple, almost a homer, today, and they've been batting in the low hundreds for a LONG time, so I can't figure this was a solo operation.
20684. HollyW - 9/12/2001 2:08:45 AM
But we've never been safe in America, we've just been lucky.
In a nutshell, yep.
20685. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:08:59 AM
GJ,
I'm pretty sure that it was the metal detectors that fixed the problem, but it has been a long time since I read about it. I travelled a lot in the 70s; hijacking was a very real fear, so I used to read everything I could find.
20686. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:11:06 AM
But the point is that we also had armed sky marshals on flights. I bet we add them again, for starters.
20687. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:11:26 AM
Holly,
So they both crashed into the WTC? Christ.
Angel,
I've been wondering about that as well. Earlier it seemed as if any minimally qualified pilot could have flown the planes, but now the maneuvers clearly required experience. Did Bin Laden have access to this sort of person?
20688. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:12:10 AM
"A trillion was my relatively uninformed guess, TBH. Not that that holds water, I was just surprised to see you, of all people, using such a lower number."
As I said, a "trillion" just seemed at first blush too far fetched and scary. But that's what today is.
EC,
I live in Manhattan. I work in Manhattan. I wasn't particularly close, but I was close enough.
And I have friends who were too close, or at least are not yet accounted for.
20689. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:12:25 AM
His training supposedly includes pilot training.
20690. mgleason - 9/12/2001 2:13:27 AM
I remember the marshals on planes in the '70s. I used to travel frequently, too, and had forgotten how scary it was.
20691. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:13:35 AM
The little fucker being pursued in Florida was attending a technical college pursuing a degree in 767 piloting.
20692. HollyW - 9/12/2001 2:16:04 AM
Hahaha. I didn't hear a plane, just thought I did. I really should be in bed.
My husband is in newspapers, and just spent 9 hours immersed in this, and he is burnt. At work, I missed a lot, but he knows all the stories and saw all the pictures over the AP wire and is not doing well with it. He is currently, and thankfully, sleeping on the couch next to me.
20693. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:17:01 AM
The Fed Computer Bust in Texas
20694. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:17:24 AM
Boston: Five "Arab Men" (go figure, huh?) being questioned in connection with aiding & abetting hijackers; the five "Arab Men" (shocker, right?) worked at the airline and are suspected of smuggling weapons & such on board for the hijackers.
20695. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:17:40 AM
GJ,
Oh, I didn't mean to ignore that point; I got distracted. I believe that studies demonstrated that armed sky marshals actually increased the risk--not only during hijacks, but at other times as well. But as I said, it's been a while since I read this and I might have the facts wrong.
I also read just recently that other countries were returning to this practice, but I really think it's a lousy idea.
20696. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:18:50 AM
Ace, I hope your friends are okay.
20697. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:21:10 AM
As far as piloting goes... The World Trade Center and the Pentagon are both pretty damned big targets to miss and most modern jetliners are supposedly extremely easy to fly once you get them in the air. Someone who's just jocked Flight Simulator 2k might have a problem, but I don't know that it'd be terribly hard for someone who's actually flown a real airplane.
I can't speak for the precision of the maneuvers performed because I honestly don't know... after all, I'm one of those folks I just mentioned who hasn't flown anything outside a flight simulator. But a LOT of people were saying initially that it wouldn't have been too hard, and they can't all be wrong.
20698. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 2:21:52 AM
Ace:
I live in Manhattan. I work in Manhattan.
Yeah, I know, that's why I was wondering. Not to be a ninny or anything, but I'm glad you're OK.
20699. mgleason - 9/12/2001 2:22:03 AM
Ah, here's tape of Lawrence Eagleburger promoting parking lot status for Afghanistan.
20700. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:23:11 AM
Angel,
Wow. I'm surprised no one has brought it up yet--at least I haven't read anything.
20701. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:24:43 AM
My friend's father was on the hundred and second floor of WTC #2 when the plane hit WTC #1.
"Stay calm," his supervisor told him. "Stay here until we can figure out what happened."
"Um, no," my friend's 70-year-old Dad thought, and quickly began the two hour walk to the bottom of the tower. He'd been in the 1993 bombing as well; he knew it took a long time to walk.
The second plane hit WTC #2 when he got to the first floor.
Other friends are MIA. I don't mention this an excuse for emotionalism; I only mention it to drive home the fact that these little names you'll see listed on TV aren't just names. They were people. People who's legs, arms, and heads were blown off, people who died of smoke inhalation or were incinerated.
Unfortunately, I might have known a couple.
They were real people, and they were murdered. Not by criminals, but by CRIMINAL STATES.
When we start killing their ratty little children -- and we will, I hope -- I hope everyone remembers why those little shits have to die.
PS, the networks are embargoing/suppressing gruesome footage of death and dismemberment. They should STOP suppressing immediately. They are not nannies; they have a duty to report what happened in all of its glistening, gory horror.
20702. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:24:46 AM
Angel,
That's what they were saying at first, but the new footage of the second WTC plane as well as the Pentagon plane's sharp last minute turn has caused some of them to change their mind--I'm speaking only of the pilot experts on the news shows.
20703. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 2:25:24 AM
Pals celebrate. That car needs washing.
20704. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:26:56 AM
Guess it's time to dust off Larry Bond's The Enemy Within and see if I spot any eerie predictions coming true.
20705. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:27:42 AM
Any number of people in WTC really were told to stay put; vK mentioned it earlier today and I found it hard to believe until it ws confirmed several times. Almost all the people who left early say they were either in the 93 bombing or were following the advice of someone who was.
20706. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:28:14 AM
A couple of the flights involved turns just prior to hitting the target.
When we were watching live the NY local coverage this morning and the second plane hit, my partner noticed the airplane coming in after we replayed it two times. They kept speculating that it must have been a bomb and we were yelling about the plane. Finally some reporter called in and said that they had replayed it, too, and noticed the plane.
Between cell phones and TIVO and the internet, there is an amazing interaction between viewers and news coverers.
20707. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:28:39 AM
I have a friend named Murad who worked at Trade 1. Haven't been able to get hold of him yet, which isn't surprising from what I've heard.
20708. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:29:47 AM
Not only did they execute turns, they successfully navigated the planes -- without the aid of the normal follow-the-beacon system (since they were making their own route) -- over a distance of 100, 200 miles or more.
They weren't just "flying" the plane as in "keeping it level and keeping it from crashing."
20709. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:31:43 AM
One woman in tower #2 reported that they evacuated their floor (in the 30s) when the plane hit the first tower, but as they got almost to the first floor, the all clear voice came on, telling people it was ok to go back to their floors. She continued on outside in time to see debris falling from the second plane.
20710. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:32:11 AM
Okay, it seems that the car that was stopped had a lot of flight training manuals--written in Arabic.
20711. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:33:47 AM
They also knew enough to turn off the navigational transponder that sends out pertinent identifying information to flight controllers. That was in today's Washington Post.
20712. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:34:53 AM
You don't need to be following a set flight path to follow a beacon, I don't believe, Ace. Those things broadcast 360 and it doesn't matter which direction you're coming from, you just select the frequency of the VOR that you want and a little display in the cockpit will point you at it.
Once again, not to split hairs. If experts are now saying an amateur couldn't have pulled this off, well, that's more meaningful than my own idea.
20713. Andonly - 9/12/2001 2:35:29 AM
CalGal, are you referring to the car stopped on the GWB? Is that the same one reportedly stopped in Bergen County?
20714. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:36:17 AM
Slate discusses this, Glenda. Slate also mentions turning off the autopilot and descending from 29,000 feet to 1,000 feet in just an hour, which is also a difficult trick for an inexperienced flier.
the article doesn't mention navigation, which I thought would be a difficult trick without training.
20715. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:36:35 AM
If there were flight manuals in the fucking car then it stands to reason that this wasn't planned out TOO far in advance.
20716. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:37:38 AM
"CalGal, are you referring to the car stopped on the GWB? Is that the same one reportedly stopped in Bergen County?"
No, a car stopped in Broward Co, florida (FLORIDA AGAIN!!!)
An Osama bin Ladin cell -- or multiple cells -- is being hounded in broward and Dayton.
20717. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:37:46 AM
And--I believe so, but haven't found a link. I just heard it mentioned on Fox. I'm looking now.
20718. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:38:13 AM
I wonder if the 4th plane crashed from pilot error or because somebody on the plane caused enough havoc to cut it short.
20719. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:38:38 AM
Dayton?
Which Dayton?
20720. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:39:19 AM
My aunt is a fucking ATC in Dayton.
20721. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:39:29 AM
"If there were flight manuals in the fucking car then it stands to reason that this wasn't planned out TOO far in advance."
Jesus, use your fucking head. 1) he could have been finishing his course 2) he could have been a new sleeper recruited for the NEXT round, or as a back-up "Alternate Terrorist" for this round.
They guy was NOT involved in the actual hijacking. He is CONNECTED to the hijacking perhaps, but not a hijacker.
20722. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:39:53 AM
Well, she's celibate. But you know what I meant.
20723. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:40:15 AM
Oh, was it Florida? I did think it was the GWB one--did that end up being a myth? I'm still looking for a link.
Angel--not necessarily, they might have been training others. But then I guess I like to think of this as having been carefully planned. Certainly the logistics seemed to have been worked out well in advance.
20724. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:40:33 AM
"I wonder if the 4th plane crashed from pilot error or because somebody on the plane caused enough havoc to cut it short."
Passengers rushed the cockpit and overpowered the hijackers. See post above.
20725. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:40:39 AM
What is ATC?
20726. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:41:00 AM
Oh, and it could also be that they were training the other guys in case something happened to the main pilot--assuming they had one per plane.
20727. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:41:16 AM
Sorry. I missed it. I'll check it out.
20728. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:41:21 AM
Sorry. I missed it. I'll check it out.
20729. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:42:04 AM
Daytona, I meant.
20730. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:42:57 AM
I am using my fucking head, Ace. If the guy is finishing his course in the car the day all this goes down then, a priori, it's likely that this wasn't planned out too far in advance. That is an obvious risk for one and an equally obvious sign that at least part of the team wasn't adequately prepared.
20731. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:43:36 AM
Air Traffic Controller.
20732. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:44:09 AM
I am off to bed. Goodnight all.
20733. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:44:53 AM
Of course, parts of the plan could be dry and dusty ancient, but the whole wouldn't be.
20734. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:45:36 AM
Daytona. Ah.
20735. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:45:55 AM
"That is an obvious risk for one and an equally obvious sign that at least part of the team wasn't adequately prepared."
You're not using your head. Last time I checked, the fucking camel-jockeys still hate us, and we still have lots of buildings standing. Ergo, they're not finished yet.
RP,
I need some anti-arab slurs. "Sand Nigger" and "Dune Coon" are all I know, and I don't want to use them. After all, I don't want to insult blacks when it's the fucking Arabs who are killing us. "Camel-jockey" is just *cute.* I want a vicious slur for these stinking, unshowered, ugly fucking maniacs.
20736. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:49:12 AM
Angel,
Yes, that's true, but I still think it's at least possible that they were training backup pilots.
Ace,
Well, I'll have to tell Irv I was wrong. I didn't think there would be a lot of anti-arab sentiment. Granted, that was before the Palestinian celebration scene.
20737. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:52:54 AM
You're not using your head. Last time I checked, the fucking camel-jockeys still hate us, and we still have lots of buildings standing.
Oh, calm down. The day of the bombings is not exactly the smartest day to be carrying around that sort of evidence... you might not agree to that but I'm sure that Bin Laden or whoever would, I'm especially sure that the guys in the car are too. No way in the world those guys would have been out on the road with that kind of stuff on them if there hadn't been an urgent need for it.
20738. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:54:02 AM
"I didn't think there would be a lot of anti-arab sentiment"
Eh. It's not "anti-arab" to merely insist we incarcerate (without trial) all suspected arab terrorists and deport every other one of them.
No more visas, no more green cards. Buh-buy.
20739. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:54:22 AM
Yes, that's true, but I still think it's at least possible that they were training backup pilots.
Of course that's possible. It might even be likely. But that's still beside the point... the timing speaks of a rushed job.
20740. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:56:08 AM
I don't buy a rush.
Slate piece on probable pilot skills
20741. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:57:21 AM
Most Americans aren't terribly sophisticated when it comes to killing Arabs and many aren't even worried about getting the right ones.As far as anti-Arab sentiment... there are people here who are pleased with the prospect of going to war against them. Like, cheering pleased.
The fact that these guys are still breathing and all those folks in NYC aren't is just one of those cosmic mysteries.
20742. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:58:40 AM
And I don't mean pleased the way Ace is pleased. I mean they want to enlist, take up arms, and go kill them themselves.
20743. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:01:21 AM
Well, I don't mind killing any natives of a country that is harboring them, because I think that's part of the deal.
A Gallup poll just showed that the overwhelming majority of those called support military action, but only after making sure we get the right guys.
20744. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:03:23 AM
Look at it like this, CalGal.
The FBI, foreign intelligence, ATF and god knows who all else watch all suspected terrorists like hawks. We all hear about the many busts every year and the many terrorist acts that are stopped at the last minute -- someone gets a tip or cracks a cipher or spots a suspicious group of Arabs living in an apartment who are scouting the local airport or trying to buy nitromethane or whatever.
So you have these undetected, as of yet, cells. And they're planning a major operation, setting everything up right... and then something happens. Something, I don't know, like the Feds seizing the computer network they were using for their communications, or a contact of theirs gets taken in. What are their choices? Accelerate the plan at the last minute with all the necessary improvisations, and risks, or sit and wait and hope nothing happens.
20745. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:05:23 AM
Oh, that's where you're heading. Okay, that holds together. I wasn't picking up on that connection.
But I still think it is too risky to train the primary pilots--it makes more sense that they had a skilled pilot per plane. Or maybe they were short one.
20746. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:09:07 AM
It would also explain why the date has no significance.
20747. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:12:59 AM
Well, I don't mind killing any natives of a country that is harboring them, because I think that's part of the deal.
You don't? I sure the hell do. Do the people you kill have any real chance to keep their strongmen from aiding and abetting terrorist cadres? Do they even agree with terrorism at all, let alone having their nation sponsor it? In most terrorist-sheltering nations the answer to the former is no and the latter, unknown. But once you blow their family members up they're much more likely to agree to the terrorism. And there's the fact that they're innocent to boot.
That isn't to say I can't accept the fact that in order to kill these folks off (and save lives and protect the well being of our nation) you might have to take a few bystanders with them. I can accept that. It's still wrong, but we don't always have the luxury of doing nothing when none of the other choices are good. I support the use of the Sunday Punch against these fuckers even though it will come with a cost, but I can't pretend I have no problem with it.
20748. Andonly - 9/12/2001 3:14:41 AM
I've read TV subscreen reports about five men in Massachusetts being held in connection with the attack. No details. What's going on? Is it NJ, FL, or MA? All three?
20749. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 3:17:32 AM
A Gallup poll just showed that the overwhelming majority of those called support military action, but only after making sure we get the right guys.
It might be interesting to note here that today, as I've been out and about, everyone I talk to, everywhere I go, here in Indonesia, which MSNBC Asia keeps referring to as "the world's largest Muslim nation," the reaction is the same: horror, shock and disbelief at this cowardly atack on innocent people, and support for a firm targeted response by the USA. One Indonesian I know pointed to a map and picked out Afganistan, and gleefully said "you can erase this one." Don't think for a minute that outrage is confined to your borders.
I fear that Americans will equate this attack with Islam. This was not Islam vs the USA... it was the act of twisted individuals, who do not represent the Muslim world.
20750. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:17:40 AM
I think I am going to wait a few days and let the smoke settle, and with it all the bogus and confused stories, before I try to sort any of this out any further. Right now it's just too muddy.
20751. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:19:02 AM
Okay, ABC news is reporting about the car seized with arabic airline manuals. It's on the Boston Herald site, but it doesn't come up. It was at Boston's Logan airport. The Feds were tipped off by a guy who had an altercation with them and then went on his way to the airport and caught a flight. When he heard about what happened he called the state police.
The brothers are from the UAE, as I think Ace said, and one of them is a trained pilot.
The link might take a long time to load.
20752. Andonly - 9/12/2001 3:19:03 AM
Okay, this is from the Boston Herald:
Authorities in Massachusetts identified at least five Arab men as suspects in yesterday's terror attacks launched from Logan International Airport, seizing in the central parking garage a car laden with Arabic-language flight training manuals, sources said last night.
Two of the men, whose passports were traced to the United Arab Emirates, were brothers, one of whom was a trained pilot, a source told the Herald, speaking on condition of anonymity.
20753. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:21:25 AM
Whoops--didn't include the link because I hit enter accidentally and didn't refresh as planned. I see Andonly has beat me to it.
20754. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:21:38 AM
Irv:
I believe that your fears are well grounded. Not that anyone's gonna go bomb Indonesia, but I doubt many Americans are going to draw too fine of a distinction between the flavor of Islamic culture found in Indonesia and that found around the Fertile Crescent.
20755. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:23:55 AM
Did I mention that gas is now selling for five bucks a gallon in Indianapolis? At least that's what my friend in Muncie said. I'm hoping his info was wrong. It's too bad GJ toddled off to bed.
20756. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:24:16 AM
Do the people you kill have any real chance to keep their strongmen from aiding and abetting terrorist cadres? Do they even agree with terrorism at all, let alone having their nation sponsor it?
Well, Americans don't always have a choice about what their government does, either. Didn't stop our innocents from being killed.
I think it is time to up the pain factor for harboring terrorists. I also think that whatever response we have should be very loud, very noisy, and very deadly. Lots of footage. Best case, terrorists and their host countries get the idea that we won't be arbitrary, but we won't be overly discriminating, either.
20757. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:25:17 AM
Turns out that, seeing as how gas trucks can make such splendid bombs, people don't want them on the roads just now.
I keep expecting to hear frantic voices on the radio telling us to expect a Japanese invasion of California. All this Pearl Harbor panic is getting a little out of control.
20758. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:25:31 AM
There has been gas gouging in a lot of the middle states. Oddly enough, I bought gas tonight and didn't notice the price--but then, I never do.
Boston Herald piece on arrests
It may take a while to load.
20759. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:27:23 AM
Well, Americans don't always have a choice about what their government does, either. Didn't stop our innocents from being killed.
I suspect that you know this isn't germane to what I said. In case you don't: you might subscribe to the notion that two wrongs make a right, but I don't. It's horrible, what happened today. That won't make it right to kill civilians. If it must be done, it must be done, but it still won't be right.
20760. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:29:04 AM
Irv,
Well, I would have felt a lot more hopeful before Angry Ace showed up. (g) But I do think a great many Americans know the difference, and certainly the media will do a lot to make that point.
Also, I noticed that more than one expert tonight was Arabic--one of the structural engineers on the Lehrer newshour, for example, was Arabic, I think, and a few journalists. So I think there will be an implicit PC push by the press to offset the prejudice. Could be wrong, but I did notice it tonight.
20761. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:29:38 AM
That last realization, btw, will be what distinguishes our retaliation from the initial attack. We shouldn't attempt to lose sight of it.
20762. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 3:31:37 AM
I'm seeing a lot of hate against Islam in various forums. One person talked of killing everyone with "tainted blood."
This is NOT about Islam. It's not even about Arabs.
20763. Andonly - 9/12/2001 3:32:13 AM
From AOL:
The Boston Herald, quoting a source it did not identify, reported that authorities had seized a car at Logan airport that contained Arabic-language flight training manuals. The source said five Arab men had been identified as suspects, including a trained pilot. At least two of those men flew to Logan on Tuesday from Portland, Maine, the Herald said.
The luggage of one of the men who flew to the airport Tuesday didn't make his scheduled connection. The Boston Globe reported the luggage contained a copy of the Koran, an instructional video on flying commercial airliners and a fuel consumption calculator.
The FBI refused to comment on the reports.
20764. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:33:19 AM
Angel,
I don't think that two wrongs make a right. I am saying that the death of innocents is not a primary consideration in a war. Besides, while we don't know that the "innocents" support the terrorists, we don't know that they oppose them, either.
Also, increasing the pain of harboring terrorists ought to be part of the objective.
20765. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:34:16 AM
I sit in one of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade;
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night
- W. H. Auden, September 1, 1939.
Just like I said: Kill the bastards.
20766. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:36:23 AM
As to how they got the pilots out--and damn, pilots should know better:
Once in the air, the hijackers in one plane began killing flight attendants in order to lure a pilot from the cockpit and seize the
plane, said one source.
``They started killing stewardesses in the back of the plane as a
diversion. The pilot came back to help and that is how they got into
the cockpit,'' said the source. The source could not specify whether
those events took place on the American Airlines flight that left Logan, or the United Airlines flight. Both planes were plunged into the World Trade Center roughly an hour after they departed Boston.
The suspects had no guns, but used shaving kits and other carry-on luggage to smuggle knife-like weapons made up of plastic handles embedded with razor blades, sources familiar with last night'sdevelopments said. That finding is consistent with reports of a flight attendant's cell-phone call from one of the doomed airliners.
``People were calling from the plane saying they were getting killed, calling 911,'' said one source. ``One stewardess called her husband to say goodbye.''
20767. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:38:08 AM
Irv,
I do think it is about radical Islam, but there is no reason to think that this taints ordinary Islam, any more than certain fundamentalist Christian sects have anything to do with true Christianity.
20768. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:38:13 AM
"I'm seeing a lot of hate against Islam in various forums. One person talked of killing everyone with "tainted blood."
This is NOT about Islam. It's not even about Arabs."
It is about Islam, and it is about Arabs.
In case you didn't notice, Irv, the people who keep blowing up our embassies, airplanes, and Pentagons are Islamic Arabs.
It's a bit like the crybaby homos who whine that we shouldn't think that Italians are associated with the Mafia simply because the mafia is 100% Italian (and, indeed, pure Sicilian blood is an express requirement for full membership).
Yeah, right Irv: The Mafia is NOT about Italians. Just like terrorism is NOT about Islamic Arabs.
It's just a coincidence that everytime a World trade Center blows up there's some three-toothed, wall-eyed retarded Dune Coon responsible and singing and clapping Sand Niggers in Cairo.
20769. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:39:12 AM
Irv:
Seriously. The Mafia is NOT about Catholic criminals of pure Sicilian descent.
Really. I mean it. It's not like that at all.
20770. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:39:39 AM
I sat at work today and listened to someone, a person who I had grown to like and respect, speak candidly in favor of committing genocide on the Arabs, Irv. And I've heard similar sentiments, it goes without saying, from many more people who I didn't like or respect. So I think I might know where you're coming from.
I don't know that many people here really bother to separate Islam and Arabs. Yes, of course, what happened today isn't about what you believe to be Islam. For that matter is isn't about what I believe to be Islam or. But it does appear to be about what the bombers believe to be Islam, and that's what people are going to think about.
20771. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:43:03 AM
PS, to my black friends,
Sorry about "Sand Nigger" and "Dune Coon." I am really groping for an anti-Arab slur to express the complete disgust I feel for this bastard race.
It was wrong to use the words "Nigger" and "Coon." I got no problem with blacks, and it makes no sense to insult blacks in trying to insult the barbaric murderous Third World scimitar-jugglers.
20772. jexster - 9/12/2001 3:43:57 AM
Authorities in Massachusetts identified at least five Arab men as suspects in yesterday's terror attacks launched from Logan International Airport, seizing in the central parking garage a car laden with Arabic-language flight training manuals, sources said last night.
Two of the men, whose passports were traced to the United Arab Emirates, were brothers, one of whom was a trained pilot, a source told the Herald, speaking on condition of anonymity.
At least two other suspects flew to Logan yesterday from Portland, Maine, where authorities believe they had traveled after crossing over from Canada recently.
The Boston Herald
20773. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:44:29 AM
Irv,
And, BTW, it's always a coincidence when they say "Glory to Allah" just before they murder innocent civilians.
"Glory to Allah" isn't Islamic or anything like that. "Allah" means, apparently, "olive." So when they murder innocent civilians and cry "Allah Akbar," or whatever, they're really saying "We like Olives."
20774. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:44:47 AM
I don't think that two wrongs make a right. I am saying that the death of innocents is not a primary consideration in a war. Besides, while we don't know that the "innocents" support the terrorists, we don't know that they oppose them, either.
Yes, yes, I know, but why the circumlocution? You said you didn't have a problem with killing civilians to get to the terrorists. I said I did. You keep agreeing with me and then tacking on a 'But...' when it's rather straightforward... you either have a problem killing civilians or you don't. I'm not really arguing about anything else.
20775. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:45:00 AM
What a stupid fucking cunt you are, Irv.
But then, par for the course.
20776. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 3:45:35 AM
Message # 20768
In case you didn't notice, Irv, the people who keep blowing up our embassies, airplanes, and Pentagons are Islamic Arabs.
Do you remember the Achille Lauro and Arthur Klinghoffer? The old man in a wheelchair pushed off the cruise liner into the Mediterranean? The ship was hijacked by Arabs and the man was killed by Arabs.
But the Arabs were Christians. 15% of Palestinians are Christians. In fact, one of the most notorious terrorist groups -- FPLP -- is a Christian Palestinian militia.
20777. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:46:54 AM
Actually, you didn't even really say that. You just said you didn't mind killing civilians of a nation that harbors terrorists, I just supposed that you meant to do so as a part of the act of killing the terrorists.
20778. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:48:29 AM
I hope no one confuses the German Nazis who exterminated Jews and killed thousands of Americans in World War II with real German Naziism, which of course has nothing to do with all that exterminating and slaughtering at all.
I'm so glad we always kept it in mind in WWII to that the Japanese and germans who were murdering us were really good people, and that we really shouldn't hold their barbaric viciousness against them, and that we really shouldn't think that MOST Japanese or MOST Germans felt that way.
It was just the "bad apples" we encountered at Auschwitz and Bataan.
20779. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:49:45 AM
See, "real" German Naziism was a peaceful, Love-thy-Neighbor, free-sex kind of affair.
But it all got "twisted around" by a few fanatical "bad apples."
20780. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:50:56 AM
It's just like a fugue, isn't it?
20781. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:51:39 AM
You know, Irv-- Bad Apples, like the thousands of degenerate Egyptian rat-people chanting "Bullseye! Bullseye!" in Cairo.
Certainly the actions of a few hundred thousand degenerate rat-people should not be taken to reflect on the six or seven dozen "Good Arabs" who just want to be left alone to build houses, tend farms, raise families, and suicide-bomb the Jews.
20782. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:53:16 AM
I kept agreeing with you about what? The need to avoid killing innocents? Not I.About two wrongs not making a right? Sure. But what does that have to do with this? Perhaps I should have mentioned I considered your comment on wrongs and rights a non sequitur.
I am utterly uninterested in "wrong" or "right" in this discussion. I have no need to convince anyone that what was done to us was wrong, or that what we do in response is right. I don't care about the justice of their cause, or that our retaliation might incur disapproval.
You just said you didn't mind killing civilians of a nation that harbors terrorists, I just supposed that you meant to do so as a part of the act of killing the terrorists.
Yes.
20783. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:53:38 AM
Achnad says:
"I am a peaceful, non-fanatical Arabic Islamic fundamentalist. I don't want to hurt America; I LOVE America! America the Beautiful! Really, if I had my way, my brethren would stop blowing up American buildings and concentrate on the important things in life, like butchering Jewish children in the street."
20784. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:55:35 AM
Man, they have an amateur video of a doctor who was working there. It is unbelievable.
20785. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:58:54 AM
Crazed Palestinian Gunman
Decries Hurtful Stereotypes
HEBRON, WEST BANK—In an emotionally charged press conference Monday, crazed Palestinian gunman Faisal al Hamad expressed frustration over the stereotyping of his people.
Above: Faisal al Hamad, seen here shrieking anti-U.S. slogans, says that "not every crazed Palestinian gunman is exactly alike."
"As a crazed Palestinian gunman, I feel hurt by the negative portrayal of my people in the media," said al Hamad, 31, a Hebron-area terrorist maniac. "None of us should have to live with stereotyping and ignorance."
He then began screaming and firing into a busload of Israeli schoolchildren.
20786. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:59:32 AM
"It hurts that in this supposedly enlightened day and age, people still make assumptions about other people," al Hamad said. "We should not rely on simple generalizations. Each crazed Palestinian gunman is an individual."
Al Hamad said that he himself has often been unfairly stereotyped. "Any time I enter a crowded temple with fully loaded AK-47s in both hands, people just assume I'm going to open fire," he said. "That really hurts."
"Yes, I sometimes do gun people down in the name of the One True God," he noted. "But there is so much more to me."
Several weeks ago, al Hamad was again the victim of stereotyping during a vacation he took with his family to Washington, D.C.
"When we arrived at the airport in Washington, security guards detained us for more than 12 hours, just because I had 140 pounds of plastic explosives strapped to my chest," al Hamad said. "Do you think they would have called the FBI if I weren't a crazed Palestinian who's on their Ten Most Wanted List? I don't think so."
20787. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:59:46 AM
Al Hamad said his vacation was ruined when federal agents seized a crate of chemical weapons he had brought into the U.S. as a gift for a friend in New York.
"I explained to them that the weapons were a birthday present for the blind cleric Sayid al Farouq, a good friend of mine from high school," he said. "But they did not believe me and took me into federal custody for nine weeks. Again, it's a case of people jumping to conclusions on the basis of skin color. And that can be very frustrating."
Above: When this truck blew up in Jerusalem on Yom Kippur last year, Israeli officials suspected PLO involvement. "That really hurt that they would just think that right off the bat," al Hamad said.
According to al Hamad, stereotypes against crazed Palestinian gunmen don't work because they don't take into account the vast variety of proud histories and diverse cultures among them.
"There are so many different kinds of crazed Palestinian gunmen. Each of us has our own unique reasons and motivations for our bus bombings and suicide missions," he said. "No two fundamentalist agendas are alike."
Al Hamad also stressed the importance of understanding and celebrating the cultural differences between crazed Palestinian gunmen and non-crazed, non-Palestinian non-gunmen.
"All the different peoples of the world have something special to offer each other," he said. "Our diversity is our greatest strength. Let's not make a weakness out of that strength."
To emphasize his point, al Hamad fired into a crowd, killing nine.
"I'm proud to be a crazed Palestinian gunman, obviously," he said in between shouts of anti-imperialist slogans. "But I'm an individual first. I'm me. Die, Yankee infidel pig swine!"
20788. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:01:30 AM
Just a footnote to CNN & MSNBC reports that AF 1 went to Barksdale because there was a "secure command post there"...
Not true according to the Senior Warden of my parish who is a doctor & Col. USAF now on Delta alert.
She claims that "scuttlebutt" (is that an OK AF word?) was that the plane needed a safe place to refuel, air refuel being too dangerous, same for ground refuel at any where other than an AFB. While Eglin AFB in FL was available, they wanted to get Bush out of Florida where, according to reports coming in just now, the FBI has served search warrants. The plane needed but did not have a full fuel load, needed for indefinite cruising at 40,000+ feet.
Obviously, they didn't need Barksdale for "C&C" as AF 1 has full capabilities.
20789. Andonly - 9/12/2001 4:11:07 AM
Irv,
What should an innocent victim of the Crusades have thought about Christianity?
The fact of the matter is that there is a strain of Islam in the Arab world and north Africa which holds violent jihad as a fundamental tenet of the faith.
I meant to mention some time ago, but didn't get around to it, that I'd picked up a book at the recycling dump--a pamphlet from the mid-seventies put out by a Canadian student Islamic organization, and written by women. Its subject was the proper way to raise Muslim children in North American society. I thought it should be very interesting to compare these people's thoughts with those of Christian fundies and orth Jews, groups which similarly reject much of modern, secular societal norms.
(cont.)
20790. Andonly - 9/12/2001 4:11:25 AM
The book was full of sane advice, eminently practical to anyone hoping to establish an island of religious and cultural difference in a secular world. If you set aside the severe restrictions on girls, which amounted to house arrest at puberty, followed by marriage at an absurdly young age, most of it was in no way objectionable. For instance, they advised things like limiting television, encouraging family closeness and decent friendships among other religious people (even non-Muslims), avoiding a preocupation with material things, leavening restrictions with moderation and understanding of the child's unique situation--all very humane.
But then I got to this little passage about which toys children should be allowed to play with. Girls were to be provided dolls, cooking things, and stuff that would prepare them to be good Muslim mothers. Boys should be given toys that would lead them to their own future roles as adults--that is, toys reflective of suitable careers. These included cars, trucks, microscopes, whatever. And one more thing: boys could be allowed to play with toy weapons--guns and tanks and soldiers, provided they understood that such play should not be trivial or misdirected. Rather, it should prepare them for their sacred obligation to jihad.
I stress, this book was written by Muslim women in Canada, for other Muslims in North America. It was published before the fall of the Shah of Iran.
20791. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:13:30 AM
How many weapons do you need to kill thousands of American civilians in about an hour?
Answer: None. 
20792. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:16:24 AM
I linked that already, but it's a good piece.
Andonly,
Interesting; brainwashing starts early.
20793. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 4:21:16 AM
It may be "brainwashing," but let us not use that word to diminish the shared responsibility for this barbaric butchery.
Nazis were "brainwashed" too. They needed killin'-- lots of killin', in big generous heaping spoonfulls-- just the same.
20794. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:22:59 AM
WRT Cal's Slate link, my AF Col. confirms the difficulty or more precisely the special training required to turn off the jets' "fly by wire" systems and be able to fly independently. Its not as easy as Flight Simulator (which is a bitch for me)
20795. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:23:20 AM
I had no intention of diminishing it; I was merely observing.
20796. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:25:00 AM
Good piece and my wallpaper for a while!
20797. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 4:27:07 AM
Cal,
I know. But I'm sick of the "Circle of Violence" metaphor and all such morality-denying, responsibility-obfuscating, enemy-appeasing faggity State Department/Harvard yard PC bullshit.
20798. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:31:33 AM
Well, don't aim it at me. I'm always either isolationist or bomb the motherfuckers to ashes. In fact, it wasn't that many months ago that you were bitching at me for not having a more nuanced view when I expressed my extreme displeasure at the UN.
20799. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 4:38:22 AM
My "displeasure," such as it was, concerned the fact that you actually cared what the fuck the UN did, and therefore you were moved to demand we resign from it.
20800. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:41:10 AM
"Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us. No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. I believe I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again." FDR
G'nite. God bless.
20801. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:41:22 AM
Quote accurately. I was the one with "displeasure". You were "bitching". I didn't care in the slightest about the UN; I didn't just want us to resign, I wanted us to consign them to Ouagadougou; no sense in these snotty little shits parking illegally and taking the best apartments.
20802. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 7:22:52 AM
I have twice explained how the group of at least three and probably four terrorists most probably acted to gain control on each plane (gaining access to the cockpit is ridiculously easy as anyone in commercial class knows; you can also wait for the stewardess to open the door to serve beverages). What probably distinguishes the UA flight that crashed in Pennsylvania is the passengers who understood the manic intent of the terrorists would kill all aboard and so despite the public's trained placidity and avoidance of physical violence some few passengers overcame the terrorists and stormed the cockpit. I'm sure most passengers facing the demonstration of physical harm and the terrorist's promise of hope the plane would safely land complied by doing nothing but worry. Just sat there, anxious, afraid, but compliant.
20803. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 7:41:18 AM
The doubters and cynics imagining little can be done against a man holding a box cutter, razor blade or small shank can't imagine what a leather belt wrapped around one's wrist up and around a closed fist with about 8 inches of belt hanging loose ending in the buckle can do when used to convince that man.
20804. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 7:44:15 AM
Wrap your sportcoat around the other arm and move in. The passengers - what males there were - probably had the numbers to overcome the terrorists.
20805. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 8:04:24 AM
Actually, the modus operandi is reminiscent of the way an Arab once grabbed hold of the steering wheel of an Israeli bus and sent it sailing down a cliff face near Jerusalem, killing at least a dozen people.
They put a railing next to the driver's seat after that one.
20806. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 8:12:12 AM
Actually, I must say, Muslims I knew in Nairobi were quite peaceful and did not seem to be imbued with the kind of belligerent fervor that the Aye-rabs are imbued with. I'd say it's mostly Middle Eastern Islam - Arab and Iranian - we have a problem with right now.
20807. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 8:15:42 AM
(Though there were some Muslim riots in the Mombassa area lately).
20808. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 8:24:27 AM
My latest prediction is that Bill Clinton will come out with a surprisingly fascistic take-no-prisoners statement on this.
You see - people hate being played for fools. Barak has become more hawkish than Sharon lately wrt Yasir ('Poison Toad') Hairyfat. Clinton was the number one dupe at CD.
20809. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 9:18:24 AM
The problem is the culture. No, not of the Muslim world nor that of Islam, but the culture which defines itself in opposition, looks to religous fundamentalism as a solution, then defines itself as warriors in a jihad. As long as some few peoples remain besotted by this romance with jihad, as long as mothers and fathers encourage their sons to die for the cause (yeah, I could be talkin' about the IRA) their approval of terrorism will not abide.
One cruel solution: Up the price beyond which a people are willing to pay for the sacrifice of their young men.
20810. Andonly - 9/12/2001 9:44:54 AM
"One cruel solution: Up the price beyond which a people are willing to pay for the sacrifice of their young men."
That's right: what Thomas Friedman refers to as "Hama rules".
When Hafiz al Assad's regime was threatened by Islamist militants in Syria in the early eighties, Assad simply exterminated an entire town that harbored his would-be assassins. An estimated twenty thousand men, women, and children were systematically butchered. And that was after he had 600-1000 Muslim Brotherhood prisoners at Tadmur prison massacred, and after he had waged a year-long war of assassinations and torture against the MB in Hama and Aleppo.
Hama rules are effective. After Hama, everyone in the middle east knew Assad would stop at nothing in the pursuit of an aggressive enemy. As a result--because Assad had shown himself capable of unlimited brutality--Syria was able to quell the Lebanese civil war, which by the time Syrian forces took over had progressed into sheer criminality and stood no chance of ending but for brute force from the outside.
Because 20 thousand people were slaughtered like cockroaches in Hama, Lebanon survived, albeit as a vassal state.
I am waiting in rage and terror and resignation for the US to employ Hama rules now. What will happen if we don't? What will happen if we do?
20811. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 9:52:31 AM
On the suggestion of rubberducky I created a new thread for discussion of the tragedy and its aftermath.
20812. Andonly - 9/12/2001 9:59:49 AM
There is no security whatsoever at our local schools. It has not occurred to anyone to ban backpacks, or post a single guard on school grounds, or control access in any way.
One parent told me this morning that her 13 year old son had seen the dancing in the streets in Hebron. "I wish they wouldn't broadcast that," she said. "Now he just wants to go out and kill someone."
I've been to town hall to inquire what plans there are to at least discuss local security issues; no one has a clue. Bear in mind, we're a bedroom community one half-hour away from NY by car or train. We can see Manhattan from our willage. And there's a huge immigrant population here: I see lots of (apparently Arab) Muslim kids in the schools. They may become targets of rage in the high school and middle school. Moreover, there apparently really was a van full of explosives intercepted on the George Washington bridge. This shit may not be done with, or there may be copycat attacks yet to come, especially once we begin bombing whomever we begin bombing.
20813. christipeters - 9/12/2001 11:26:33 AM
A couple of the reports from here - http://monitor.airsecurity.com/ :
5:11a UNCONFIRMED: Taliban offer to consider extradition of Osama bin-Laden
10:10a Intercepted calls between bin-Laden backed persons discussed hitting two U.S. targets.
(times are Central Time Zone)
(I haven't caught up on the posts here, so my apologies if I am repeating what someone else has already posted)
20814. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 11:30:42 AM
I bet we'll have to endure Jesse Jackson attempting to negotiate Bin Laden's release and then there will be the inevitable weepy Barbara Walters special following.
20815. ronski - 9/12/2001 11:30:54 AM
The NJ van did not contain explosives as originally reported.
20816. christipeters - 9/12/2001 11:42:10 AM
sorry Pelle - I posted before I read your #20811
20817. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 12:26:20 PM
Some pilot talk on the hijackings
20818. Oceans11 - 9/12/2001 12:41:49 PM
Well, well.
Any take on the Shrub's handling of this tragedy, thus far?
Mine is not pretty; Shrub badly mishandled this true national crisis. For nearly 12 hours after the attacks, Shrub literally disappeared from view. When he finally surfaced, at a time when the US needed reassurance and heartfelt words, we were treated to a very sterile and canned statement about "good" versus "evil" with a little Christian jingoism thrown in.
It is sad that Shrub couldn't deliver a few words from his heart instead of reading a poorly written and emotionless speech from a teleprompter. It appeared as if he just didn't care.
Leadership, effective leadership, requires presence and emotional involvement. Shrub provided neither.
20819. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 1:06:32 PM
Ace:
I just saw your ignorant comments to me from earlier.
You fail to realise that Arabs are less than half of the Islamic world.
And the countries which support or allow terrorism are a small portion of the Arab world.
And the terrorist supporting nations prominently include Iran and Afganistan, which are NOT Arab nations.
But sure... have it your way... every Muslim is an Arab, and every Arab is a terrorist. Why should something as mundane as facts get in the way of your rant.
As I said, this is not about Islam, and it is not about Arabs. It is about the terrorists who have targeted the United States.
And that is my last word to you. I will not abide your name-calling. I know you will post 20 times to try and prove some sort of point. But each post will make you look sillier.
20820. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 1:22:24 PM
No doubt most here would agree with you IrvingSnodgrass, and on reminding them you are Muslim all save one here would doubtlessly agree.
20821. Wombat - 9/12/2001 1:26:48 PM
Oceans:
That's what we get for "electing" a lightweight.
20822. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 1:28:51 PM
Here in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation, there is shock and sadness and sympathy for the USA. I have seen no signs of any anti-American feelings whatsoever. Indonesia's president wrote Bush offering Indonesia's assistance in whatever form needed to help eradicate terrorism.
But we're Muslims, so we're the enemy. It's simple.
20823. judithathome - 9/12/2001 1:33:28 PM
Only to the simpleminded.
20824. Wombat - 9/12/2001 1:34:36 PM
Or the Generalizer Bunny.
20825. Oceans11 - 9/12/2001 1:37:24 PM
>That's what we get for "electing" a lightweight.
Freedom didn't come under attack yesterday. It died at the hands of Antonin Scalia nine months ago.
The script used by Shrub was borrowed from his father. At the start of the Gulf War, Poppy claimed we were making democracy "safe" for Kuwait.
Last night, Shrub claimed we were attacked because of the US was the "beacon of freedom and opportunity."
We won the Gulf War but Kuwait is hardly a democracy. We'll exact our retribution for yesterday's attack but it doubtful "freedom and oppotunity" will be enhanced in this country.
20826. wonkers2 - 9/12/2001 1:51:12 PM
FU, Even the Israelis don't retaliate with mass attacks on civilians. They use more of a rifle shot approach as opposed to a blunderbuss. And many thoughtful people believe that their policy isn't getting them any closer to where they want to be.
20827. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:00:28 PM
I watched only a about 10 minutes yesterday
to see view of towers falling
and then there was a shot of Bush in school room with
little kids as someone tells him the news
I had heard the expression before, but had never seen it myself but then I did see this guy
look so very much like a deer caught in the headlights of truck at night.
I did not listen to him read some speech to the nation.
I did think of how Pres. Clinton would have
dealt with the same situation.
This thing is WAY OVER THE HEAD of Bush.
20828. theDiva - 9/12/2001 2:02:56 PM
Several taken into custody in connection with the attack.
20829. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:03:09 PM
Irving re. your post 20819
I can only guess to whom you are responding
but admire your patience in a response.
Are the Arabs en mass now being accused of
the Trade Ctr attack?
20830. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:04:26 PM
I keep imagaging the ripple effect of having
every major airport in USA shut down.
20831. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 2:09:32 PM
Max:
In this thread, it has been made clear that all Arabs and all Muslims are responsible.
This is the ignorance which is causing the sickening backlash against Arab Americans -- the same backlash that CalGal insisted wouldn't happen. Arab-Americans are being beaten up and their places of business threatened.
The enemy is not Islam and it is not Arabs. The enemy is the despicable cowards who planned and executed the barbaric attack on innocent Americans. Anger and revenge should be focused solely against them.
20832. Oceans11 - 9/12/2001 2:11:01 PM
>This thing is WAY OVER THE HEAD of Bush.
Most of life's basic tasks exceed Shrub's abilities.
I don't think this comes as a big shock to most Americans. I am surprised, however, at the near-paralysis and disappearance of Shrub's vaunted cabinet and National Security Staff.
What will be interesting is this administration's military response and how it meshes with Colin Powell's so-called doctrine.
20833. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:18:04 PM
Irv -- if it's any consolation, the US government is stressing that this is not the work of all Moslems or Arabs, but of specific terrorists.
The most inflamatory thing has been the same video and pictures of people in East Jerusalem celebrating yesterday when they heard the news. I've seen the same scene pictured in the newspaper and replayed on several network news reports.
20834. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:24:48 PM
Of course, the story that Indiana linked in the other thread from the Paki religious leaders doesn't help much: Wednesday September 12, 7:36 PM
U.S. yet to see the worst, says Jamiat
By Indo-Asian News Service
Quetta, Sep 12 (IANS) The United States is paying the price for its anti-Islamic policies but the "worst is still to come", the leader of a Pakistani religious group said Wednesday.
Online news agency quoted Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam leader Maulana Abdul Ghafoor Haideri as saying Muslims across the world had decided not to "spare the international terrorist responsible for making their lives miserable".
He was commenting on Tuesday's deadly terror attacks in New York and Washington that killed thousands when hijacked planes crashed into the World Trade Centre and on the Pentagon.
He accused the U.S. of pursuing "terrorist activities" against Muslims in Palestine, Iraq, Bosnia and elsewhere.
Another Jamiat leader, Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, said the attacks were a retaliation by 1.75 billion Muslims of the world "who have remained the victims of U.S. aggression and hostilities
But that's like Jerry Falwell speaking on behalf of all Christians.
20835. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:25:27 PM
Except that Jerry Falwell has advocated bombing anybody, so it isn't like him.
But you understand my point.
20836. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:25:39 PM
Why do you suppose people in East Jerusalem
would celebrate a terrorist attack on USA?
20837. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:25:46 PM
has not advocated...sheesh...
20838. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:28:20 PM
Because they are hate us. Because they see it as apart of their campaign against Israel and us. Does that mean all Palestinians joined them?
Or all Arabs?
Or all Moslems?
20839. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:29:20 PM
interesting ( to me) info is that two people on two different airplanes spoke to someone
via their cell phones.
and.
will the "black boxes" remain intact
after the planes did not?
pieces of info like shards in a dig will now
begin to be gathered.
20840. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:37:03 PM
I read somewhere that the Pennsylvania black box will probably be recovered. And that one may offer insight because of the speculated struggle between crew, passengers and the terrorists.
20841. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:45:05 PM
well one piece of info will be the list of passangers which the airline has.
the cell phone woman alledgedy implied passangers were told a bomb was on the plane
hi jackers probably told them plane would
be taken somewhere , not into side of a bldg.
20842. Oceans11 - 9/12/2001 2:47:20 PM
Be aware there is a possibility the Pennsylvania downed aircraft may have been shot down.
20843. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 2:48:48 PM
excerpted from an AP dispatch:
Ray Downey, who led New York firefighters to Oklahoma City in 1995 to help look for victims in the rubble from the bombing there, was one of at least three top New York City fire officials who died in the Trade Center collapse.
20844. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 2:53:45 PM
This afternoon there was a memorial service here, at the Royal Castle, attended by the royal family, government ministers and members of parliament. About now there is a public service in the Stockholm cathedral and many other churches throughout the country. When I drove home a couple of hours ago all flags were at half staff.
Friday prayers at the Stockholm mosque will include a condemnation of the attack. Friday is also declared an official day of mourning in Europe.
These are small things, I know, but yet....
20845. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:56:17 PM
Pelle, because we rarely follow on our news what happens in other countries in much depth, then I assume European countries wouldn't give that much response to what happens in this country. Top of the news, yes, but not hours on end.
We now have BBC America and that's all they were talking about. It is interesting to see responses like the one you describe.
20846. Indiana Jones - 9/12/2001 2:57:00 PM
They're not small, Pelle. America is taking stock of and will remember who is our friends and who isn't in this hour.
20847. christipeters - 9/12/2001 2:58:30 PM
(the below times are CDT)
1:19p Rash of bomb threats against U.S. businesses and sympathizers in Cape Town, South Africa since yesterday. In northern Nigeria, where most of the population is Muslim, there have celebrations involving small numbers of people over yesterday's attacks.
1:00p Latest ATCSSC advisory from the FAA's ATC Command center in Virginia: "ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 010 DCC 09/12/2001 NAS STATUS UPDATE MESSAGE: CURRENTLY THE NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM (NAS) IS IN OPERATION FOR MILITARY, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MEDICAL EVACUATION FLIGHTS ONLY. THE RESUMPTION OF NORMAL OPERATIONS IN THE NAS IS EXPECTED TO BE A LENGTHY PROCESS WITH NO ESTABLISHED TIMELINE. ONE OF THE STEPS REQUIRED IS TO DETERMINE THE STATUS OF EACH AIRPORTS' SECURITY AND OPERATIONAL READINESS. COORDINATION WITH AIR TRAFFIC AND MILITARY FACILITIES MUST BE ACCOMPLISHED TO RESUME NAS OPERATIONS AT AIRPORTS IDENTIFIED AS MEETING THE SECURITY AND OPERATIONAL CRITERIA. WHEN IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED THAT A SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF AIRPORTS CAN RESUME OPERATIONS A NATIONAL TELCON WILL BE CONDUCTED. THE RESUMPTION OF NAS SERVICES AND PLANNING CONFERENCES WILL BE ANNOUNCED VIA COORDINATION WITH EACH ARTCC AND PUBLISHED ADVISORIES."
12:56p FBI has found the flight data recorder ("black box") from the aircraft that crashed near Pittsburgh, PA
20848. theDiva - 9/12/2001 2:59:46 PM
it's not small, Pelle, and it's comforting. I for one appreciate it.
Christi, thanks for the updates.
20849. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:26:10 PM
Irv, your #20819 and the next one...few people here consider Arabs, Muslims, and terrorists to be one and to do so is stupid. My fear is that people will begin to have such xenophobia or rather increase the existing xenophobia. Fortunately, reports of harassment of middle east, eastern and subcontinent people, who are here in the US, are very rare, at least for the moment.
20850. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 3:27:33 PM
The Taliban may be willing, finally, to hand over Usama bin Ladin. But it's also possible that the Taliban don't know where he is. It's been reported in the Pak press that Usama bin Ladin moves from camp to camp across Afghanistan with millions of dollars worth of sophisticated communications equipment.
20851. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 3:32:32 PM
Communications in Afghanistan means radio. If he uses the stuff he can be located.
20852. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:32:47 PM
Irv..#20831
I have not heard of these attacks in the US, but have been home only a short time and near a tv. I totally agree with your post. Here in Seattle things seem to be pretty calm, so far. I pray it continues.
20853. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:38:58 PM
I remember there was a point when the Taliban said bin Laden was not in Afghanistan but when he was, they would hand him over. Now they say he is there but has been stripped of all communication equipment. I must have missed a step there.
20854. theDiva - 9/12/2001 3:40:09 PM
you mean the ones where the lying SOBs are giving succor to this monster?
20855. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 3:42:48 PM
I, of course, completely agree with Irv, and I should have stated it earlier. After all I have lived and worked in the Middle East for thirteen years. To equal Muslims or Arabs with terrorists is the same as equalling the "Patriot" movements that produced Timothy McVeigh with Americans.
20856. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 3:44:27 PM
Pelle, interesting , your post.
It is not that I am uninterested in European
thinking and media writing...it's because it is
all but non existent.
Except for occassional big stories in
places like Newsweek mag. or New Yorker Mag.
We in USA think we are informed , but mostly we just
get some sound bite of some extreme happening
somewhere in the wide world.
Very little follow up or continuity.
e.g. whats happening in Croatia, ?Ireland,?
Lebanon, ?Basque Spain, etc etc etc.?
20857. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:46:01 PM
Pelle,
Very well put!
20858. theDiva - 9/12/2001 3:46:32 PM
Yes.
20860. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 3:49:21 PM
Thanks.
20861. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:49:34 PM
Yes, Diva, I think that's it...
20862. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 3:49:46 PM
NATO invokes mutual defense...
BRUSSELS, Belgium (Reuters) - NATO (news - web sites) invoked a mutual defense clause for the first time in its history Wednesday, opening the way for a possible collective military response to Tuesday's attacks on the United States.
``The (NATO) Council agreed that if it is determined that this was an attack directed from abroad against the United States, it shall be regarded as an action covered by Article V of the Washington Treaty, which states that an attack against one ally is an attack against them all,'' Secretary-General George Robertson told a news conference.
The article commits each of the 19 member nations to take ''such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.''
Asked whether this meant NATO would take joint action, Robertson said: ``The country attacked has to make the decisions, it has to be the one that asks for help. ... The U.S. is still assessing the evidence available. They are the ones to make that judgement.''
In Washington, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news -web sites) said the statement would ``tee up'' a possible collective response once the United States identified the perpetrators and their sponsors.
20863. Absensia - 9/12/2001 4:17:18 PM
Oh, sorry, I remember why the Taliban didn't hand bin Laden over since they said announced, in 1996, that he was there. There was no evidence he'd done anything wrong. And, everyone knows that the Afghanistan court system and demand for equal justice under the law, puts all Western countries' legal systems to shame! RME.
20864. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:18:29 PM
I predict the word that one of the terrorists had a bomb will be proven false. Yes, he may have said he had a bomb, but analysis will stunningly prove that the passengers were cowed by threats, demonstration of violence, and the hope tendered to them that the plane would land in a safe place away from the US.
I would hope this occasions all to rethink the widely held belief that compliance to the hijacker's demands saves lives. If some poor, demented soul wants to fly to Miami or Taiwan or Germany he usually does so alone, relying on the plane's pilots to take him there. Those who come along with their own pilot will take us all to hell if we let them.
I also hold that Air Force One was never in danger. Yes, the President as a target was on board but the plane itself never a target, and to maintain so is politically motivated (I doubt President Bush is party to that charade). And the idiots who said Camp David was targetted should be left there to rake up autumn leaves.
20865. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:22:56 PM
I would hope this occasions all to rethink the widely held belief that compliance to the hijacker's demands saves lives.
I completely agree with this, and I wish that there weren't so much emphasis put on compliance as a response to any violent or hostage situation.
20866. glendajean - 9/12/2001 4:24:07 PM
I think that the White House or the Capitol were targets makes more sense.
Loss of either would have been even more stunning.
20867. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:24:16 PM
The extreme expression of that compliance is the Stockholm Syndrome.
20868. judithathome - 9/12/2001 4:24:37 PM
Has anyone on this thread, since there doesn't seem to be anyone on the other thread who did, heard about the head of Saudi Intelligence abruptly quitting his job yesterday?
20869. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:25:30 PM
I say frankly, with my wife in tears beside me and even reports of the Pentagon being hit I said no, not the White House, not Lincoln's house.
20870. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:26:13 PM
That was the only time I lost it.
20871. glendajean - 9/12/2001 4:31:28 PM
The White House been gutted twice before. Once by the British and once by Harry Truman. The only thing original are the stone walls and some wood used as paneling in the State Dining Room and the China Room on the ground floor.
I know that, and yet, I agree. I am not sure that I could have fathomed our losing it. I used to eat my lunch in Lafayette Park across the street. It is an incredibly powerful symbol.
William Seale, its historian, wrote that it is an embodiment of an ideal developed over time, and that ideal is what we value, not the old timbers first constructed when Washington was president, and later under Monroe during the first re-building.
20872. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:40:52 PM
Parliament House or Westminster Cathedral? The choice given by firemen to Churchill during the blitz. I say no structure within the US compares to our White House as the history and expression of We, the People.
20873. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 4:45:09 PM
"I would hope this occasions all to rethink the widely held belief that compliance to the hijacker's demands saves lives."
Prior to this, how often had a hijacking lead to any more than a handful of casualties? Even including only ones by Mideast terrorists, can't recall any where all, or even a majority of passengers, were killed.
20874. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:52:56 PM
Raskolnikov, true, so this occasions all to rethink the widely held belief that compliance to the hijacker's demands saves lives.
20875. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:54:28 PM
Passengers in China stormed, disarmed and beat the few who tried to hijack a plane to Taiwan. Guess they didn't all receive the benefit of sensitivity training.
20876. concerned - 9/12/2001 4:55:17 PM
20822. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/01 6:28:51 PM
Here in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation,
there is shock and sadness and sympathy for the
USA. I have seen no signs of any anti-American
feelings whatsoever. Indonesia's president wrote
Bush offering Indonesia's assistance in whatever
form needed to help eradicate terrorism.
But we're Muslims, so we're the enemy. It's simple.
How do self-pity monsters such as yourself survive in the world?
20877. concerned - 9/12/2001 4:58:35 PM
I did think of how Pres. Clinton would have
dealt with the same situation.
I'd appreciate it if you'd enlighten me. I tend to break into snickering when thinking how Clowntoon would have 'handled' this.
20878. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 4:58:37 PM
In the future, I agree. But my point is just that those who did nothing with the belief that it would all turn out ok in the end, while wrong, were not stupid, or necessarily cowardly.
On the Pittsburgh crash, it sounds like the pilot keyed open the intercom, allowing the passengers to hear what was being planned - which convinced three of them to do something about it. A rare display of heroism in this day and age, and it chokes me up to think about it, but they had knowledge that passengers on other planes didn't seem to have.
20879. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:04:28 PM
I don't know the conditions under which flight attendants reportedly had their throats slashed to get the pilot and co-pilot out of the cockpit. If true, what were the men among the passengers doing? Turning their heads away in disgust? Or shame?
And, it seems to me (hell, I've said it over and over again) that the terrorists had to have killed the pilot and co-pilot to allow their own to fly the plane. Isn't that proof enough those men must be taken down at any cost?
20880. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:05:54 PM
Concerned, re 20876
"How do self-pity monsters such as yourself survive in the world?"
That was not only uncalled for, but shows how shallow and meanspirited you are. IMO.
20881. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:06:59 PM
And only three acted? Three?!
20882. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:08:33 PM
Re. 20879 -
Perhaps the passengers rationalized that their best chances of surviving the ordeal consisted of passivity, and/or within their small numbers, nobody with a normal amount of courage existed.
20883. Indiana Jones - 9/12/2001 5:09:13 PM
Heroism in the face of terror
Glick, who celebrated his 31st birthday on Sept. 3, told his wife, Lyzbeth, that he hoped she would have a good life and would take care of their 3-month old baby girl, Hurwitt said.
20884. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:09:53 PM
From what I have heard, flight attendants have been taught to say they do not have keys to the cockpit door. Clearly, if I know it, so could the terrorists and might have slit one's throat to get another to produce the key and open the door.
20885. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:10:17 PM
Re. 20880 -
Absensia -
I was poking fun at Irving's big self-pity sham.
Perhaps you should try being less narrow minded and moralistic.
20886. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:11:19 PM
Right Scott...only three, and only men? I don't understand that. Perhaps only three could talk without being overheard...who knows, but seems strange.
20887. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:12:11 PM
Yes, yes, yes. The passengers rationalized their best chance to surviving was to be passive, despite every evidence to the contrary, not because the passengers were rational but because they were conditioned to act that way -avoid physical contact, especially violence, is the prime operating principle of modern American life.
20888. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:12:59 PM
Concerned...and perhaps not.
20889. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:13:46 PM
So, Glick knew he would die. And he acted knowing he would die. That's bravery.
20890. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:16:42 PM
Ok; I'm an insensitive jerk. It's more interesting than singing 'Kumbayah', IAC.
20891. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:18:15 PM
But such speculation as to the actual situation, how the terrorists acted and what could have been done pales in comparison to the pressing matter of whether or not we should nuke Afghanistan and will the Wokkan allow our troops passage into Kabul, or how are we to act against - well, hell, we don't even yet know who the terrorists are or from where or who sponsored them, but many are hot to act and denied action they'll talk, and talk, and talk about how they'll bomb, and bomb, and bomb.
20892. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:19:04 PM
I think it's Goombayah.
20893. judithathome - 9/12/2001 5:21:23 PM
My husband long ago told me that if we were ever in a highjack situation or something similar, he would move on them...and I believe he would.
20894. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:22:29 PM
Concerned: IAC?
Scott, yep...and that scares me. Oops..there's a terrorist over there ------> . let's nuke the entire country!
20895. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:23:46 PM
IAC = In any case.
20896. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:25:27 PM
Ohhh, okay...can I call you insjer for short? ;-)
20897. judithathome - 9/12/2001 5:26:21 PM
IAC: Ignorant Asinine Comment
20898. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 5:34:29 PM
I thought it was "Ignorant Asswipe Concerned", like his full name or something. Doesn't quite have the ring "JFK" or "LBJ", does it?
20899. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:44:58 PM
Gee, thanks, guys. I didn't mean to upset you by putting down 'goombayah', honest.
20900. mgleason - 9/12/2001 5:49:48 PM
'Goombayah' must be the Italian version.
20901. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 5:50:35 PM
I kid because I love, IAC. And you're right about "Kumbayah", a silly-ass hootenanny song if ever there were one.
20902. CalGal - 9/12/2001 5:57:59 PM
I definitely would fight in the event of a hijacking; they count on you being terrified.
But it's not only hijacking. Hell, the cops tell you not to fight or resist during a mugging; all they want is your money. Even if that's true (and I'm sure it is for most of them) who the hell are the cops to tell us not to resist? They just don't want the paperwork?
Far too many women are told to cooperate with rapists, too.
I could deal with it being part of the human condition, but it pisses me off when it gets to the point that you have to justify any action other than meek compliance with a criminal.
20903. Absensia - 9/12/2001 6:02:38 PM
I agree Cal...I've heard male cops say, "In the case of rape, just lay [sic]there and enjoy it, there is nothing you can do." Grrrr. But women self defense trainers don't say that, nor do karate sensis.
20904. mgleason - 9/12/2001 6:05:21 PM
I hope I'd have the fortitude to fight back. To hell with cooperation, that just makes it easier for the malefactors.
20905. CalGal - 9/12/2001 6:07:13 PM
Well, even without the "enjoy it" part, they are definitely encouraging women to be passive. I mean, when women are asking their rapists to wear condoms, something is going wrong. I know there are times when resistance simply isn't possible--for example, the rape depicted on The Sopranos had no weapon involved, but I couldn't see a moment when she could have fought back. But in many cases, fighting is possible, and the stats apparently show that women who fight back have much better odds of both surviving and escaping rape.
I don't know what muggings are like, but apparently cops think that most muggers are mild little guys just carrying guns to get money and that really, if you just let him have the money he won't panic and shoot you. So do they lecture you if you actually fight back?
And the wacko shootings, when a single person walks into a crowded restaurant and start shooting (as opposed to the school shootings in a more open area), why don't more people at least consider jumping him, rather than huddling and waiting to die?
Again, I know that some of this is just a natural human response and lord knows how I'd respond in some cases (although in both attempted rapes I fought back and escaped as a result). It is the authoritative advice to comply that annoys me.
20906. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 6:18:50 PM
I couldn't and don't pretend to have read everything in this thread, but the posts I've read attacking Irv are despicable.
As far as what anyone on any flight did, I wouldn't dare judge them after the fact with what little I know, and probably knowing every detail. I would hope I wouldn't be a passive victim, but I haven't been there to know what I'd do. People like Keoni with military knowledge and experience I would certainly not doubt would have confidence to act, but I couldn't say that for the average untried/untrained plane passenger. I will say that if I were mugged I don't ever have a thing on my person I'd be willing to risk my life for.
20907. judithathome - 9/12/2001 6:25:57 PM
No kidding...I'd give up everything to someone holding a knife to me. And I'm sure Keonis experience is what makes him sure he would act; he would know what to do where someone without military or fighting skills might not, as you said.
20908. CalGal - 9/12/2001 6:30:02 PM
Well, good. Now that you've defended a whole host of people who weren't attacked, why not post on the subject at hand? And no, I'm not speaking of Irv. The only person who attacked Irv was Ace, despite your insinuation.
20909. Absensia - 9/12/2001 6:30:59 PM
I think it was last night (it all runs together,) there was a discussion about Logan and apparently the feds did a long investigation over the last 18 months...they sited logan for over a 100 security violations, including being able to get on board without a ticket, being able to get on board with weapons, and being able to get by airport metal detectors while carrying guns. As I recall, the report came out in August.
20910. CalGal - 9/12/2001 6:32:39 PM
It always amused the hell out of me to go into an airport and see those signs warning me not to go to some obscure country--was it Nigeria? Do you think they'd ever post signs saying "Logan failed all security tests?" Hell, no. That'd be bad for business.
20911. judithathome - 9/12/2001 6:38:36 PM
The only person who attacked Irv was Ace, despite your insinuation.
Ah, no...concerned also made snotty remarks about Irv.
20912. Absensia - 9/12/2001 6:39:00 PM
I like the idea. The state department issues warnings about which countries are dangerous for American tourists. The State Department could also list on it's web page which airports are dangerous
because of low security.
20913. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 6:40:45 PM
Cal, you're an illiterate idiot. My remarks about Irv weren't directed to you. And I'll post on whatever the hell I want based on what I wish to respond to, not based on your dramatic edicts; and if Robert wants to move them, great.
20914. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 7:27:08 PM
Wouldn't dream of it. Carry on, ladies.
20915. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 7:41:58 PM
This has been a fascinating thread, Robert. I certainly don't want to disrupt it.
My first post was simply general remarks on what I'm trying to absorb from what I've read. The first paragraph is a response to several ugly posts on what I think are legitimate and certainly not unselfish remarks of Irv's. The second was not directed at any particular statement or individual criticism of the passengers, but on the recent discussion as a whole. I agree with Rask's 20878.
Where Cal got the idea that post was just to her is anyone's guess.
20916. bubbaette - 9/12/2001 7:52:08 PM
I can't stand this. Seeing the people on tv looking for their relatives, knowing that untold thousands are in the rubble and that each of these deaths radiates out to untold family and friends in endless circles of grief. It's stunning, and doesn't seem right to keep dressing in the morning to go to work or to cook dinner at night.
As for retribution, I think it's necessary. But it's also essential to be sure that we are exacting retribution against those responsible.
20917. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 7:53:55 PM
just read Yahoo news saying Dumbya Bush
was critized for hiding out in a bunker
in Nebraska.
I had not heard that , but then I am not glued to TV or radio.
what I found amusing was White House press
then saying reason Bush did not go back to
White House is because white house and Bushy
were targeted.
Now if they knew who the targets were
would they not have shot down the planes heading for WTC.
Triage that sort of thing
Like the Pentagon spokeman who said
not much damage to Pentagon as part of it was smoking and on fire.
20918. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 7:56:53 PM
I know what you mean, Bubba. It's amazing what a pall it's placed on my entire workplace (and home, for that matter), lasting two days. I told the kids we had to get back to normal tomorrow. I don't think any of us will be able to stand it if we don't. In a way I think we should have stayed home today. Some schools did.
20919. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 7:58:05 PM
It's ok... I've decided this site no longer holds any appeal for me anyway. Ace and concerned's totally unprovoked attacks are just the icing on the cake.
20920. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 8:02:21 PM
I would ask you to reconsider, Irv, but I emailed once asking you to return, and I totally understand and respect how you feel. Please don't stay out of touch with us.
20921. mgleason - 9/12/2001 8:03:31 PM
You know, Irv, there are assholes everywhere. Certainly there are many more people who value you and your contributions.
20922. bubbaette - 9/12/2001 8:08:31 PM
Arky
I didn't even find out about it til about 3 yesterday afternoon. I was at home and hadn't turned on the tv or radio and so didn't hear til Mike came home.
As for Bush going to Omaha, I don't see how anyone can fault him for that. The four attacks had all the earmarks of war with the great possibility of more targets. I would suspect that getting everyone out of Washington when the city is attacked is SOP, and I hate to see anyone trying to get political milage out of that.
20923. bubbaette - 9/12/2001 8:10:14 PM
Irv
I agree that Concerned and Ace's tone is obnoxious and detimental. I hate to see them drive off more toughtful posters.
20924. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:12:51 PM
I'll be getting back to normal ASAP. I'm down in Dallas next week, assuming air travel is restored.
20925. Absensia - 9/12/2001 8:15:38 PM
Irv,
I agree...please don't leave. You bring a lot of enlightment and knowledge to me and no doubt a lot of others. Besides, you are a fellow mariners' fan.
I, and others, have been concerned about the xenophobic backlash. Don't let it get you, and please stay...you can help fight the dolts.
20926. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:16:39 PM
Don't give them the satisfaction, Irv.
20927. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:21:10 PM
xenophobic backlash...I hardly paid attention to it.
20928. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:24:06 PM
Well, possibly that's because you didn't feel it was directed at you, maybe.
20929. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:26:29 PM
Gee, if I try I can get one more qualifier in there, even.
20930. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:26:55 PM
Yes, but remember that this is an on-line forum. As much as I can appreciate and be sensitive regarding the high emotions of the past couple of days, one has to remember that this is an Internet forum, and ignore the trolls.
20931. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:29:45 PM
Sometimes that is easier said than done. But you are right, in the whole scheme of things, they are meaningless.
20932. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:34:32 PM
I have been on the receiving end of some pretty mean attacks on the Internet. So I speak from experience.
20933. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:36:24 PM
Don't we all...
Say, when you next come to Dallas, pick up one of those Real Estate freebies and check out the listings. Las Colinas is a good area near Irving.
20934. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:52:26 PM
The company has an office on Las Colinas.
20935. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:58:13 PM
That's cool! It's really nice there.
20936. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 8:58:37 PM
All the above, Irving. Please don't go. We need you.
20937. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 9:37:21 PM
An instructive post lifted in toto from a pilot in another forum (sue me):
...The news report of suicide pilots who were perhaps trained at Embry-Riddle in Daytona Beach is intriguing. That was an angle I had not considered and it would explain rudimentary knowlege and proficiency that could translate into the ability to successfully execute these atrocities. Embry-Riddle University, FlightSafety International, Inc., and several others have primary training centers in Florida. These centers have always been very popular with foreign students -- wealthy foreign students. They are VERY expensive. In the mid-70s FlightSafety's Vero Beach facility had a very high enrollment of Iranian flight students. FlightSafety offers a program that can take a student from scratch through, at least, Learjet-type airplanes. They don't care who -- and this is not necessarily a criticism -- a student is, but they do care about ability to pay AND meeting the competency requirements of the program.
I think the news media i jumped to conclusions on the calls made from the aircraft to loved ones. I think it will come out that these "cell phone" calls were actually made from the seat-back AT&T or GTE onboard flightphones. A cell phone is virtually useless above a couple of thousand feet.
Along that same line, the conversation attributed to Barara Olson in which she said that "the pilot" was in the rear of the airplane may or may not have been significant. There are often deadheading, or pass-riding pilots in the passenger cabin in uniform. There are often jump-seating pilots in the cockpit. The singular, if accurately quoted, would lead me to believe that if "the pilot" were one of the crew he was in the cabin to check things out (I have big problems with a pilot going back during a disturbance, but I wasn't there), not to surrender. Again, the CVR tape should clarify that point.
20938. sakonige - 9/12/2001 9:56:34 PM
Message # 20919
Bye. I don't know if I will ever see you again, but I have enjoyed knowing you. I'm sorry for the times I've offended you with my bitter observations.
20939. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:00:41 PM
CalGal envisions herself as Passenger 57. This is hilarious!
20940. ronski - 9/12/2001 10:10:54 PM
Irv,
I would also ask you please not to go. I don't post in Language very often only because of my comparative ignorance of the subject, but I read it always. And I can't imagine this place without you in International and other threads.
Still, if you do, I will try to keep in touch. I don't have much history with you, but you have struck me as one of the most interesting and decent people I have ever found in my relatively brief experience with the web.
Take care, guy.
20941. ronski - 9/12/2001 10:16:22 PM
sakonige,
I don't often interact with you. However, I hope you may have noticed that I am one of the people around here who is most interested in and most respectful of the Native people you often speak for.
I cannot understand how you could dismiss 20,000 lives as mere bourgeois trash. Perhaps you are unaware of the large percentage of African-American and Hispanic people, and probably some Mohawk, who died in the Towers.
With respect, I ask your reply.
20942. CalGal - 9/12/2001 10:17:19 PM
Irv, I can't believe you would leave because of the attacks. But if you just don't like the site then it's too bad; I'll miss you.
20943. sakonige - 9/12/2001 10:35:01 PM
ronski,
The people using this website are average Americans, like the ones who died in the terrorist attack, and most of them are shallow, coldblooded, worthless human beings when you get to know them.
20944. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 10:43:08 PM
Message # 20943 Kinda like you sak. The opinions you have expressed have been completely reprehensible.
20945. joezan - 9/12/2001 10:43:09 PM
My intern informed me today that yesterday at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, where she attends, many Arab students ran out onto the quad to dance and celebrate the bombings shortly after the news hit.
They were promptly beaten into bloody pulps by other students.
20946. judithathome - 9/12/2001 10:43:19 PM
And yet you keep coming here to interact with these worthless human beings...interesting.
20947. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:43:50 PM
Spoken like a bitter observer. Should anything terrible happen to you, maybe someone will have compassion rather than criticize you for being so shallow, coldblooded and worthless.
20948. sakonige - 9/12/2001 10:44:19 PM
What can I say? Imagine the WTC full of people like Ace, and concerned, and CalGal, and Jenerator. It would be kind of tragic, but not worth killing thousands more people who had nothing to do with it.
20949. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:45:48 PM
Sakonige,
Why do you want to be a victim? Why are you so insecure? It's as though any attention, even if it's negative, is what you seek. Truly sad.
20950. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 10:47:20 PM
Why are you even asking Jen? Who cares about her? Her posts are more disgusting than anything I've ever seen on here.
20951. mgleason - 9/12/2001 10:50:45 PM
Eh. You people have no appreciation for performance art.
20952. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:50:50 PM
Morbid curiosity I suppose. But you're right, why bother. Afterall, Sakonige will no doubt see this as an attack on "her peoples" just like she sees everything else as.
Sakonige, if this terrorist attack is no big deal, you're a hypocrite of the highest order.
20953. CalGal - 9/12/2001 10:50:51 PM
I'm sure it's ignoble of me to want to send those Arabs home--I am assuming almost certainly they aren't citizens of this country (but they can stay if they are).
The terrorists had AOL accounts. They used our schools, our Internet, our infrastructure, our planes, our buildings.
20954. CalGal - 9/12/2001 10:52:33 PM
Last night, while Ace was saying inexcusably horrible things about Arabs and Irv, he also posted an undoubtedly accurate skit of Sako's schizoid drinking. It was very funny; I recommend it.
20955. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:52:35 PM
Joe,
Glad they were beaten to a pulp.
20956. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:53:06 PM
Where is it CalGal?
20957. CalGal - 9/12/2001 11:09:18 PM
It's got to be in this thread somewhere, because I just checked the Israel Palestine thread and can't find it.
20958. sakonige - 9/12/2001 11:12:30 PM
Message # 20946
You're not very observant.
I read this site because PE posts informative and entertaining commentary here occasionally, and it's a public place I can communicate with him without breaching the bounds of chastity. I also enjoy some of RustlerPike's frontline reports from Israel.
20959. judithathome - 9/12/2001 11:14:44 PM
I'm more observant than you appear to be...and don't worry your pretty little head about the bounds of chastity. I am certain they are very safe.
20960. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 11:18:51 PM
Chastity and PE. Both words coming from Sakonige and in the same sentence; a first.
20961. sakonige - 9/12/2001 11:53:26 PM
Modesty, chastity, a reverence for the sanctity of sexual relations. It's something North American Indios and Muslims have in common. You wouldn't understand.
20962. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 11:55:20 PM
And to be truthful I barely care.
20963. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 11:56:51 PM
Check that... don't care.
20964. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 11:57:57 PM
it is irrelevant to the thousands of deaths yesterday. Fuck your reverence for anything.
20965. ronski - 9/12/2001 11:59:11 PM
sakonige,
You have spoken.
You are a disgrace.
And probably not even remotely sane. Your ancestors no doubt weep for you.
20966. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 1:07:04 AM
Thomas L. Friedman, NYTimes...
I suddenly imagined a group of terrorists somewhere here in the Middle East, sipping coffee, also watching CNN and laughing hysterically: "Hey boss, did you hear that? We just blew up Wall Street and the Pentagon and their response is no more curbside check-in?"
20967. ronski - 9/13/2001 1:11:22 AM
If a pussy like Friedman writes that, we may be headed towards Armageddon.
20968. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 1:17:52 AM
Safire Sucks Up---Big Time...
...Karl Rove, the president's senior adviser, tells me: "When the president said 'I don't want some tinhorn terrorists keeping me out of Washington,' the Secret Service informed him that the threat contained language that was evidence that the terrorists had knowledge of his procedures and whereabouts. In light of the specific and credible threat, it was decided to get airborne with a fighter escort.")
20969. sakonige - 9/13/2001 2:01:52 AM
Message # 20965 My native ancestors understood that if we kill some of them, they have a right to kill some of us, since they are humans, too. That went a long way toward keeping people from killing very many eachother for a long time. It also makes my ancestors better than yours.
20970. sakonige - 9/13/2001 2:03:03 AM
Fuck you and your supremacist vengence. You're not that special.
20971. mgleason - 9/13/2001 2:06:32 AM
As Homer wrote, 'It's a wise child who knows his own father.'
20972. ronski - 9/13/2001 2:09:59 AM
sakonige,
You are a sick person. And thoroughly incoherent.
The last thing I am is a supremacist. I am a pacifist, and always have been. I was a conscientious objector in the war. I have been a defender of the right of self-defense, and nothing more.
You are truly in need of help.
20973. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 2:11:10 AM
As Ace of Spades wrote, "Drunken semi-Indians shouldn't spend all of their welfare checks/casino payoff money on internet service."
20974. ronski - 9/13/2001 2:11:53 AM
Ace is right on this one.
20975. sakonige - 9/13/2001 3:59:01 AM
Brits always get my jokes. Dumbshit Americans almost never do.
20976. LimeGirl - 9/13/2001 4:36:16 AM
I don't see anything wrong with wanting to send foreign students who celebrate the distasters that happened home. Celebrating American deaths is the first step towards causing American deaths. Why should we spend our money to educate them so that they can learn how to best do that?
It's absolutely disgusting to be glad that people died because you don't think they're your kind of people. There were all kinds of people in those buildings, from cleaning people who probably didn't speak much English, to CEOs.
20977. iiibbb - 9/13/2001 8:14:42 AM
Message # 20969
maybe your ansestors were better than mine... but you are a lump of shit.
20978. iiibbb - 9/13/2001 8:21:15 AM
Even great men have to pull their pants down and take a crap sometimes... Sak is perhaps evidence enough.
Sak of shit.
20979. Wombat - 9/13/2001 8:52:27 AM
So, when is President* Bush going to deign to drop in on New York?
20980. Francis Urquhart - 9/13/2001 9:15:17 AM
Hopefully, at a time when his presence won't further tie up traffic, communications systems, and the like.
Ah, what the hell. If it makes you "feel" better, let's just send him in to press the flesh.
20981. Wombat - 9/13/2001 9:21:30 AM
I am sure that the city would welcome a gesture.
20982. Rama - 9/13/2001 10:28:23 AM
So, when is President* Bush going to deign to drop in on New York?
I think just about everybody recognizes that the pseudo-Indian is nuts. I'm not sure that people who fixate on every action of the President after an event like this are aware how irrational that is.
20983. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 10:50:49 AM
We're hanging two flags on our property today. The neighborhood we live in is covered in them. Even some of the Hispanic neighborhoods across town are displaying nothing but American flags.
20984. pseudoerasmus - 9/13/2001 10:55:33 AM
Why you hadn't accepted them as Americans before?
20985. mgleason - 9/13/2001 11:10:24 AM
Some of those 'Hispanics' may be 'Americans' of an older vintage than you imagine.
20986. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 11:35:38 AM
Cleared for takeoff---maybe...
WASHINGTON---The United States said on Thursday it had ordered U.S. national airspace reopened to commercial and private aviation effective at 11 a.m. EDT.
U.S. Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said U.S. airports will be reopened and flights resumed on a case-by-case basis, only after they implement more stringent levels of security imposed following Tuesday's hijack attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
20987. judithathome - 9/13/2001 12:29:02 PM
They have just arrested 2 men at the Amtrak station here who were on a flight to Newark which was rerouted to St.Louis on Tuesday; these two had knives and box cutters and were "Indian" (according to the reporter). They are being detained at the jail...what this means, I don't know but the FBI snagged them.
20988. Absensia - 9/13/2001 1:06:04 PM
I just posted this in American Tragedy
CNN reports 5 fire fighters were just now found..alive...in a SUV, in the rubble.
20989. MaxMacks - 9/13/2001 1:06:52 PM
the level of discussion here is sooooo
impressive !.
So Shrub has come out of the bunker
to take command ??
20990. sakonige - 9/13/2001 1:19:43 PM
I need to get some spare id's ready so I can really enjoy these messageboards when the retaliation starts to hit home.
20991. sakonige - 9/13/2001 1:25:29 PM
Good thing I never exposed my name, because I am surely going to dance on your loved ones graves when you start your public grieving.
20992. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:00:56 PM
Sakonige,
The WTC and Pentagon bombings weren't about you, psycho.
Thank God you didn't make it as a teacher, you fraud.
20993. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:02:30 PM
I can't begin to imagine how twisted your soul must be, Blue...
20994. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:05:02 PM
Sakonige, at your next pow-wow, you better thank the Big Spirit In The Sky that you don't live in N. Texas.
20995. Absensia - 9/13/2001 2:08:51 PM
I just received this email:
BREAKING NEWS from CNN.com
--American Express building in New York City being evacuated
over concerns it may collapse. Details soon.
20996. wabbit - 9/13/2001 2:12:02 PM
Sakonige,
Compassion for others is something you apparently don't understand. Your ID has been suspended for the next thirty days.
20997. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:13:36 PM
Thanks, wabbit.
20998. mgleason - 9/13/2001 2:18:14 PM
Ah, Wabbit, is this the latest recipient of the Rosetta Stoned Memorial Suspension for Excuciating Dullness and Predictability?
20999. christipeters - 9/13/2001 2:27:09 PM
1:13p (CDT) American Express Building in New York closed because of fears of collapse
21000. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:28:25 PM
Ha! MG, funny.
21001. glendajean - 9/13/2001 2:34:57 PM
Judith -- any more on the people arrested at the Amtrak station?
21002. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:37:06 PM
Fox says that the two Indians (one named Mohammed) had loads of cash on them in addition to the plane tickets.
Hmmmm.
21003. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 2:40:54 PM
Bucks for Bin...
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Germany's most flamboyant Internet multi-millionaire Kim Schmitz offered up to $10 million on Thursday for information leading to the arrest of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) in the wake of terror attacks against the United States.
Schmitz, the ex-hacker portrayed in the tabloid press with fast cars and scantily clad women, posted a ``Most Wanted'' bulletin on his personal Web site, www.kimble.org.
``Spread the word, stop terror,'' Schmitz wrote in an e-mail received by Reuters.
The message contained a link to his Web site, which offers up to $10 million for ``information leading directly to the apprehension or conviction'' of Saudi-born dissident bin Laden.
21004. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:46:22 PM
Maria, PE,
Mexico flags are flown exclusively in the Hispanic areas of town, until now.
21005. Seamus - 9/13/2001 2:48:17 PM
Thank you, wabbit, for raising the level of discussion via Message # 20996
21006. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:50:11 PM
I think they aren't connected at all...the local station has been strangely mute on it since the first big blast of info.
21007. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 2:51:52 PM
Meanwhile, in the Gulf of Mexico:
MIAMI -- (AP) -- Tropical Storm Gabrielle formed Thursday in the Gulf of Mexico from a rainy depression that was already spinning off bands of rain and soaking the Florida Peninsula.
The nearly stationary storm, with top winds of 45 mph, has been sitting off Florida's southern gulf coast but was expected to eventually begin moving northeast for a possible weekend or later landfall somewhere north of Tampa.
21008. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:53:23 PM
Jen, he had $4,000.00, not tons.
In Fort Worth, the "Mexican" part of town flies American flags...the only "Mexico" flags I see are at Mexican restaurants.
21009. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:54:44 PM
Edit...not loads. (sorry, I said tons.)
21010. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:56:17 PM
Judith,
Here, there's a substantial population of Mexicans. The only place I see two, sometimes three flags flown (US, Mexico, Texas) are at the used car lots. Otherwise, the Hispanic business and neighborhoods all fly Mexico flags.
21011. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:58:36 PM
Yesterday, as I was driving past the Oasis Car Wash in Plano, I noticed on the sign a big mistake: "Prey For America".
I stopped in to notify the manager and he was very shocked that it was misspelled.
Thirty seconds later I saw "Pray for America".
21012. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 3:15:35 PM
A good deed, indeed.
21013. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 3:24:27 PM
Even the slightest bit of sympathy for dubya is hard for me to muster. But after watching a couple of TV clips this afternoon (one with him on the phone)and noting how woefully inarticulate he is, I wished for him a touch of fluency. Maybe he should have a couple of drinks.
21014. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 3:34:01 PM
I think he's doing a good job.
He's extremely more articulate than most of us would be as president.
21015. marjoribanks - 9/13/2001 3:41:47 PM
Hahahahaha.
21016. LimeGirl - 9/13/2001 3:42:30 PM
I don't think he's doing a bad job, and I am not one to cut him much slack.
I am getting really annoyed with all the talk about how he ran away and didn't go back to Washington right away. The president is supposed to get out of harm's way when there's any threat against him. He can be just as in-control of the situation from Air Force One as he can be from DC.
21017. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 3:46:40 PM
DeLay drops UN delay...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Republican House leader said on Thursday he will drop his opposition to a payment of U.S. back dues to the United Nations as President Bush seeks to rally international support after this week's terror attacks.
Republican Whip Tom DeLay, from Texas, told Reuters that he "is not going to be obstructionist to the president" in a time of crisis. He said he expects the dispute over a $582 million payment to be "taken care of next week" by the House of Representatives. The Senate has already approved the payment.
DeLay and other Republican leaders had made progress on the U.N. funding impasse even before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon but "the events of this week expedited things," his spokesman Jonathan Grella said.
21018. judithathome - 9/13/2001 3:51:18 PM
I don't fault him for going to Nebraska at all...as you say, he is supposed to do that and no need to senselessly expose himself to danger.
But I can fault the guy for being so hopelessly inarticulate as to tell the Mayor and Governor of New York the "America has a lot of anger and it is really real." That is not grownup speech nor is it educated speech. I know he is both...why doesn't he sound more like either?
21019. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 3:53:23 PM
MarjoriBanks,
Take a break from being so obnoxiously conceited and judgmental.
I know that you think that you epitomize high class (gee, your "caste" should be proof enough, right?) and you never pass up a chance to tell us all what it was like living with servants (until you could speak, right?) and no doubt you are the expert when it comes to knowing the difference between S. American mangoes and Indian mangoes, BUT, you do not represent all Americans, nor do you represent the Americans that can be objective enough in this time of tragedy to see that the President is doing a fine job.
Sure you think you know better, but thank God, you'll never be President. So get over yourself.
21020. Francis Urquhart - 9/13/2001 3:53:24 PM
Juditha doesn't want a doctor.
She just wants someone who plays one on TV.
21021. judithathome - 9/13/2001 3:55:19 PM
No, I'd settle for a president who sounds like one.
21022. glendajean - 9/13/2001 3:56:12 PM
The Times of London reported that they found the cockpit of one of the airplanes in NYC with a body of a hijacker in it. They also reported finding a stewardess bound by wire.
I am surprised that there are any items left in solid block form from that airplane.
21023. Property of Jesus - 9/13/2001 3:57:49 PM
What Judith should be concerned with is why her middle-aged son is dating a 21-year-old girl.
Just think of the bad habits the woman is teaching him.
21024. Absensia - 9/13/2001 3:58:10 PM
That is surprising.
I just got this notice:
WASHINGTON (CNN) --In an effort to assess the security of the
U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile and review anti-terrorism
efforts under way at U.S. nuclear power plants, a group of
congressional leaders will visit U.S. nuclear weapons
laboratories this weekend.
21025. marjoribanks - 9/13/2001 3:58:52 PM
You're always unintentionally hilarious Jenerator, and your last post is typical.
However, previously, I was laughing rather hard at the fact that you'd defend the inarticulate burblings of Dubya with a singularly inarticulate burbling of your own. You didn't get it (no surprise).
21026. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:00:04 PM
"That is surprising" was directed to what glendajean said, pleased be assured of that, and not the pussilanimous prattle that came immediately before my post.
21027. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 4:00:22 PM
DeLay drops UN delay...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Republican House leader said on Thursday he will drop his opposition to a payment of U.S. back dues to the United Nations as President Bush seeks to rally international support after this week's terror attacks.
Republican Whip Tom DeLay, from Texas, told Reuters that he "is not going to be obstructionist to the president" in a time of crisis. He said he expects the dispute over a $582 million payment to be "taken care of next week" by the House of Representatives. The Senate has already approved the payment.
DeLay and other Republican leaders had made progress on the U.N. funding impasse even before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon but "the events of this week expedited things," his spokesman Jonathan Grella said.
21028. judithathome - 9/13/2001 4:01:20 PM
Rosetta, your jealousy knows no bounds...you don't know even half the story or you'd be slitting your wrists in envy.
21029. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:03:31 PM
Marjoribanks, oh, your old trick of ridicule when when you have to valid response. And considering prior posts, I had expected better of you. However, your sly digs about Pakistan are too obvious. Anything that might hurt Pakistan would only help India. There goes your seemingly lack of bias.
21030. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 4:10:02 PM
Absensia gets style points for "pusillanimous (cq) prattle."
21031. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:12:47 PM
Oh, thank you, thank you!
21032. marjoribanks - 9/13/2001 4:13:01 PM
Absensia,
Actually, for your information, Pakistan (under the current leadership) will likely benefit from the events underway, especially if the US does decide to do something big in Afghanistan. I'm all for it, and all for a solid propping-up of the shaky current Pak leadership. I'm a Musharraf fan.
21033. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:15:10 PM
I don't know how that second "l" fell out. ;-)
21034. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:19:48 PM
Majori,
I hope Pakistan will benefit. They didn't get much benefit the last time the US used their soil to send in the cruise missiles to Afghanistan. A fan of Musharrf? You think his actions of declaring himself everything but King have helped? There are many, many problems in Pakistan and I hope they can be solved although it won't be all at one. If I misread your regard and support for Pakistan, I apologize.
21035. judithathome - 9/13/2001 4:37:44 PM
Pinging sounds from the Pentagon plane are being heard...
A small plane flying above Bushs ranch in Crawford Texas was ordered to land by the military this morning.
21036. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 4:41:26 PM
FBI briefing on CNN. Now.
21037. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 4:53:09 PM
IMF, World Bank meetings iffy...
WASHINGTON -- The International Monetary Fund and the World Bank said Thursday that no final decision had been made on whether to cancel their annual meetings, but some officials indicated that the gatherings would at least be postponed.
Washington officials have urged the two 183-nation lending institutions to cancel the Sept. 29-30 meetings in light of the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
21038. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 5:07:53 PM
CBS says "black box" from Pennsylvania crash site has been located. They say it is the flight data recorder, not the cockpit voice recorder.
21039. Greystoke - 9/13/2001 5:10:31 PM
Jenerator
"I think he's doing a good job.
He's extremely more articulate than most of us would be as president."
What exactly has he done that leads you to believe he's doing a good job ? Making a speech and talking to reporters ? Wow!
Perhaps he is doing a good job behind the scenes. Or maybe he isn't. But, so far, I've seen nothing on which to draw a conclusion.
Frankly, I expected that some sort of military response would have been initiated by now. I don't think I'm alone in chafing at Bush's failure to act.
21040. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:15:52 PM
The story about the five firefighters rescued in th rubble covered SUV is false...it was five rescuers who had fallen into a hole and were pulled to safety. CNN
21041. Property of Jesus - 9/13/2001 5:23:27 PM
Of course, Judith, many middle-aged men would like to bed a woman half his age just to say: "Love is an exploding cigar we willingly smoke."
But you're his mother, and should be giving the lad constructivee counsel.
What do you say to the girl's mother about it?
21042. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:25:50 PM
Not that it is any of your business but the girls mother approves. You are too much...is this filling your little wet dreams now?
You need to worry more about some latent STD your son might have brought back from the Philippines.
21043. PelleNilsson - 9/13/2001 5:28:02 PM
How exceedingly unwitty. But that's a characteristic of this particular person isn't it? The Unwittiest Poster on the Mote. The competition is trailing far behind.
21044. Property of Jesus - 9/13/2001 5:28:49 PM
At least the girl and you can watch MTV together.
21045. Property of Jesus - 9/13/2001 5:29:02 PM
At least the girl and you can watch MTV together.
21046. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:39:54 PM
Well, Pelle, I hope you were referring to POJ and not to me but if you were talking about me, I begto differ. I was provoked.
21047. PelleNilsson - 9/13/2001 5:40:04 PM
Judith
I didn't mean you.
21048. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:41:24 PM
Thanks, Pelle...I was hoping you didn't. My post was rather tasteless, I'll admit.
21049. PelleNilsson - 9/13/2001 5:41:27 PM
And I'm a little bit disppointed that you even suspected that.
21050. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:42:13 PM
See above post.
21051. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 5:43:40 PM
Bill is walking around in NYC and being interviewed on CBS. I luv it.
When does dubya get there? He's gonna be pissed.
21052. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:45:35 PM
Senate side of the Capitol is being evacuated....
21053. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:00:43 PM
Yes, the Capitol building is being evacuated and members of the House and Senate are strolling down the steps to gather in knots outside the building where a heat tab could kill them all.
Excuse me? Putting a bomb inside the building is more difficult and less effective than having car bombs outside the building and situated so that the blast comes from two directions killing all between. Then, for pure devilment, a third bomb to go off about 20 minutes after the initial melee to kill rescuers and wounded.
Christ! Why aren't these people thinking? Won't anyone take this situation in hand and discipline these jerks to evacuate to a safe position?
21054. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:10:49 PM
I find it amusing that ScottLoar, who previously (and currently) maintains that it is "impossible" for a sniper team to kill bin Laden, now advocates... sending in a sniper team to kill bin Laden as an alternative to carpet bombing.
This in practically the same breath as he "lampoons" me for suggesting that we should have assassinated bin Laden two years ago.
The Left. Ya gotta love The Logic.
21055. Cellar Door - 9/13/2001 6:13:43 PM
Why are youloitering around the hgouse, Ace? Go out and kill someone why don't you? NOW!
What's a matter? You some faggot pussy or something?
21056. concerned - 9/13/2001 6:16:05 PM
Re. 21039 -
Well, I'm chafing a bit, also, but since it sounds like NATO, as well as countries such as Russia and China are getting involved, at least more or less on the US's side, it seems to me that the situation must be getting even more tremendously complex wrt deciding on the best course, particularly on deciding whether a 'quick' beginning to a resolution is advisable.
21057. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:16:06 PM
When did I ever suggest we use a sniper to kill bin Laden? That is your fantasy. That you would equate my opposition to carpet bombing (Ace! Have you ever seen the effects of an "arc light"?) to support of a Natty Bumpo sniper is absurd. But absurdity is your stock-in-trade now.
I have patiently, repeatedly explained why a bombing of the civilian populace is not only ineffectual but counterproductive yet you remain stupid to my arguments.
I've voted Republican since the Carter-Reagan primaries.
21058. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:18:54 PM
AceOfSpades, I doubt less than a majority of persons reading your screed these last two days believe you've become seriously unhinged. No, that's not sarcasm but a statement of sad fact.
21059. pseudoerasmus - 9/13/2001 6:20:15 PM
Loar, you left-wing Marxist scum.
21060. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:20:38 PM
"Well, I'm chafing a bit, also, but since it sounds like NATO, as well as countries such as Russia and China are getting involved, at least more or less on the US's side,"
NATO is barely on our side. The Beligians refused to state that an "act of war" was committed; they would not sign the joint communique until it was changed to "act of barbarism."
It seems that the intentional destruction of half a city isn't clearly enough an "act of war" for the Belgians. Kick them out of NATO as soon as this is over, and end normal trade with them.
France, too, is ever-so-concerned that our response might be too "disproportionate." fuck them. Quite frankly, I'm ready to destroy half the goddamn world. Let them all burn; let them all die.
" it seems to me that the situation must be getting even more tremendously complex wrt deciding on the best course, particularly on deciding whether a 'quick' beginning to a resolution is advisable."
It seems to me the faggit Democrats won't agree that a Declaration of War is called for.
That said, I can wait for a response. I only care about the massiveness and viciousness of the response; I can wait, and speed is not a priority.
Indeed, a quick-fix feel-good hut bombing will quickly disappate the war-fever, as a milliong faggit liberals suddenly decide, "Well, Justice was done; now we can go back to coddling terrorists and hoping for hte best."
21061. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:21:40 PM
I do grant a sniper team could kill Osama bin Laden if he stands still for some while in an open area. He must do that, and the snipers must be there (wherever that may be - a tiny logistical and intelligence problem?), but these are little difficulties for Ace's fevered imaginings.
21062. Cellar Door - 9/13/2001 6:21:52 PM
Clearly brain lesions have begun to set in.
21063. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:23:25 PM
Leftist Marxist scum? Moi? And those who know and love me think me the very embodiment of Nathaniel Hale.
21064. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:25:20 PM
Loar,
I understand. It is wrong and stupid that I should suggest that covert sniper/special Ops troops should assassinate bin Laden two years ago; it is, however, brilliant that you should suggest the same sniper teams assassinate him *now*, when he knows we're coming.
Pretty much the only "new factor" here is that you need to recommend some level of action (i.e., a hit squad) in order to avoid supporting widespread, massive bombing.
Two years ago it was silly to send snipers against bin Laden; now that Loar quivers we might hurt "innocent civilians," suddenly it's pretty smart to do so now. (Although, of course, I'm still stupid for suggesting it two years ago; after all, I suggested we send in "Natty Bumpo" in to do the job.)
21065. concerned - 9/13/2001 6:26:51 PM
Re. 21060 -
I suspect you're right. But what would you expect from a bunch of Nazi collaborationist Frogs, Walloons and Flemballs?
21066. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:27:29 PM
(which, of course, I didn't. ScottIdiot further distorts by suggesting I send in one sniper, which of course I didn't; I suggested several teams of Rangers and Green Berets with apache helicopter support -- pretty much what ScottMoron thinks we should do now, in order to avoid hurting "innocent civilians").
21067. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:30:06 PM
PS: "Surgical strikes," "restraint," and "bringing the actual perpetrators to justice" went down with Tower Number One.
Sure, I think we should make it a priority to "avoid civilian casualties." But I think we should make it priority #627, after "Looking sharp in your new black berets." In other words, if you THINK there might be a terrorist in Kabul, someplace, you bomb the whole city to the ground. It's just a matter of emphasis, really.
21068. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 6:34:44 PM
Sept. 13 — The twin towers of the World Trade...
...Center loom in the distance through the cockpit window of a 767 flying south over the canyons of New York City. The picture isn’t real, it appears on a popular flight simulator. The experience brings up a chilling question. How could a terrorist learn to fly a sophisticated jetliner? There’s one surprising answer: by purchasing a computer program for $34.95.
21069. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:34:56 PM
AceOfSpades, no, I've never, never, never equated the military force needed to effect my prescriptive policy against terrorism to anything from a few Natty Bumpo snipers to the teams of Rangers and Green Berets AceOfSpades would love to attend.
Between carpet bombing and Ace's Rangers lies my clear position: the force (no, that doesn't mean "teams" Ace - we're not talkin' football) that can effectively kill the state leadership and party apparatus. That force would be the full might of the US but applied - PLEASE LISTEN UP, ACE - specifically to the state leadership and party apparatus and not against the populace.
21070. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:36:57 PM
To the Wandering Bag Lady Posing as AceOfSpades -
seek professional help.
21071. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:40:27 PM
Why not against the populace? Gee whiz, Ace, I've explained why again and again but you think such statements a testosterone test.
21072. pseudoerasmus - 9/13/2001 6:51:35 PM
There are also intimate links between Pakistan's intelligence services and the fundamentalist parties that the Pak government is supposedly trying to keep in check.
21073. pseudoerasmus - 9/13/2001 6:51:56 PM
wrong thread
21074. AceofSpades - 9/14/2001 11:30:19 AM
I find it amusing that shitheads like Wombat are suggesting that I be suspended for going "over the top" and suggesting, for example, that Pelle and his family should be the victims of a tragedy similar to the one that occurred in New York, and yet Cellar has told ME that I should die two or three dozen times (under far less emotional circumstances) and no one ONCE has uttered a peep.
Well, that's not true-- I complained once or twice. And I was told to fuck off; and that Cellar could say what he liked; and he really should mind himself, but honestly, words can't hurt you.
So, Cellar has told me to die two dozen times. Where was shitface Wombat, then?
And as for the Arab shit:
Fuck you. We are at war. Were I alive during WWII, I wouldn't be singing songs about the great engineering skills or cultural achievements of the poor, doomed Germans.
21075. AceofSpades - 9/14/2001 11:31:30 AM
wrong thread
21076. Stumbo - 9/14/2001 11:35:07 AM
How do people manage to post things to wrong threads, anyway? Multiple browser windows?
21077. judithathome - 9/14/2001 11:37:08 AM
Both threads start with the word New...
21078. robertjayb - 9/14/2001 11:37:28 AM
Together Again...
WASHINGTON (AP) Al Gore spent the night at former President Clinton's New York home and was traveling with his former boss to Washington, setting aside their political hard feelings to attend national prayer services.
The former vice president arrived in Buffalo, N.Y., from Europe on Thursday and called Clinton to discuss Tuesday's terrorist attacks. The president invited Gore to spend the night at his Chappaqua, N.Y., home.
Clinton also invited Gore to fly with him to Washington aboard an Air Force plane provided by the Bush administration to attend services in memory of victims of the terrorist attack.
21079. Stumbo - 9/14/2001 11:57:12 AM
Army intelligence... Massachusetts safety...
"Joseph Lawless, public safety director [of Massport, which operates Logan Airport], 1993-present. Former driver for Governor Weld and State Police trooper. Hired by Weld in 1993 to replace Carmen Tammaro, who was driver for former Massachusetts first lady Kitty Dukakis."
-- from a Boston Globe piece
21080. glendajean - 9/14/2001 11:57:50 AM
I hadn't heard that one, Robert.
Among other stories...
Is it true that a fireman on the 85th floor rode down the collapse of one of the buildings and survived?
The W. Post reported on a Brooklyn family concerned about their daughter who worked in a building next to the WTC. Their son, a military officer, called from the Pentagon to check and see if they had heard anything from her since the airplane attack. While the son and mom were on the phone, the plane hit the Pentagon. The phone went dead and it wasn't until several hours later that he was able to contact his parents. Meanwhile, his sister had missed her bus, and was late to work, thereby missing the explosion.
21081. iiibbb - 9/14/2001 12:47:45 PM
Airline employees intentionally breach security I'm sorry... we need to get our shit together.
And how inane is it the response of Luber? "We would ask that nobody intentionally try to break security," she said.
21082. rubberducky - 9/14/2001 4:27:49 PM
one more 'safeguard' that won't work...
Commercial airlines will no longer allow passengers holding e-tickets to receive a boarding pass by only showing photo identification. Passengers will have to present a printed receipt of their e-ticket purchase, according to representatives from online travel company Travelocity and Southwest Airlines.
...
Some airlines are allowing e-ticketed passengers to print out confirmations of their receipts to show as proof.
The changes in procedure are part of increased security efforts announced this week by the FAA in light of Tuesday's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. Curbside check-in of baggage has also been forbidden, and knives of any kind will not be allowed on planes. In addition, the department said, carry-on baggage will be subject to search.
i don't see how this will help anything
21083. iiibbb - 9/14/2001 5:25:54 PM
The newest album by the rap group The Coup has an.. unfortunately timed cover design.
(album review in Wired)
21084. Indiana Jones - 9/14/2001 5:28:27 PM
iiibbb: I read somewhere that they've already withdrawn that cover.
But that is the kind of thing I think Falwell--if he has to take potshots, rather than focus on the task at hand--ought to be shooting at.
21085. CalGal - 9/14/2001 5:36:01 PM
Ducky,
That's fucking stupid. It's a damn text file.
21086. Cellar Door - 9/14/2001 5:46:51 PM
KILL! KILL! KILL!
21087. robertjayb - 9/14/2001 9:38:22 PM
Japanese Firms Evacuate Pakistan, Mideast...
TOKYO (Reuters) - Major Japanese firms have begun evacuating their staff from countries neighboring Afghanistan, fearing U.S. military retaliation for this week's terror attacks on New York and Washington, Japanese media reported on Saturday.
21088. robertjayb - 9/14/2001 9:56:27 PM
Japanese Firms Evacuate Pakistan, Mideast...
TOKYO (Reuters) - Major Japanese firms have begun evacuating their staff from countries neighboring Afghanistan, fearing U.S. military retaliation for this week's terror attacks on New York and Washington, Japanese media reported on Saturday.
21089. joezan - 9/15/2001 1:02:49 AM
Message # 21078:
So... it took 9 years, but Clinton finally got Tipper to sleep over at his place!
21090. AceofSpades - 9/15/2001 1:05:05 AM
Says who it took 9 years?
When he sees chubby, he's relentless.
21091. Shannon - 9/15/2001 9:09:15 AM
In local news:
False rumors bombard restaurateure
21092. iiibbb - 9/15/2001 10:15:27 AM
I got a leter on a list-serv from a friend of mine stating how hopping mad he was about Falwell's statement. He wants us to write letters to editors etc.
I don't know whether to write my friend back. Falwell is an ass for sure, but why start paying any attention to him now if you didn't before. His statements may be insensitve, stupid, arrogant, and pious... but they are at such a subordinate scale to what happened on Tuesday it is virtually pointless to direct any attention to Falwell.
21093. judithathome - 9/15/2001 10:17:34 AM
Shannon:
That is a sad story...but I'm afriad we're going to be hearing a lot more like that. We have a great country but many in it are so quick to believe the worst and act on it. This mans livilihood could be taken away.
I've noticed a sort of trend in radio lately of DJs getting more and more radical about what goes out over the airways...like those two who said Britney Spears was dead and two local guys who attacked a local politician in a really vile way with unsubstantiated rumors about the guys private life. It's all in the name of free speech but they seem to think that means anything goes.
21094. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 10:59:25 AM
iiibbb,
What bothers me is that I've already heard Falwell echoed by a man(idiot)-in-the-street on the local news. My angry gut reaction is they agree with the terrorists. I don't know how ugly I will be to the first person who offers that idiocy irl. I hope it isn't a student. It will be a real challenge to my restraint.
From Shannon's article:
Unfortunately, many believe that if it’s written down, it must be true, he said.
You can't imagine how much I work on this in teaching, and even with colleagues, who think just because a friend or family member sent them something in e-mail, it's gospel.
You want to show your religious faith, you people? Use the brain God gave you!
21095. iiibbb - 9/15/2001 11:06:31 AM
No matter how stupid Falwell is, it will never justify what happened Tuesday...
...the religious right may be loop-nuts, but they aren't terrorists.
21096. judithathome - 9/15/2001 11:08:00 AM
Well, they aren't helping any by making statements like Falwell did.
21097. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 11:13:27 AM
My point is that the terrorists are fanatics who think our country is evil and deserves destruction. How is Falwell's message different? Nothing justifies what happened Tuesday. Sane people unblinded by fanaticism know that.
21098. iiibbb - 9/15/2001 11:15:40 AM
No matter how stupid Falwell is, it will never justify what happened Tuesday...
...the religious right may be loop-nuts, but they aren't terrorists.
21099. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 11:17:26 AM
You said that already. ;-)
21100. iiibbb - 9/15/2001 11:41:28 AM
refresh error... oops
21101. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 1:00:20 PM
...the religious right may be loop-nuts, but they aren't terrorists...
How about the clinic bombers and doctor shooters?
Don't they claim to be doing the Lord's work?
21102. Indiana Jones - 9/15/2001 2:53:28 PM
21103. CalGal - 9/15/2001 2:58:36 PM
Holy shit. I linked this article in the Attack thread, but maybe it's more relevant here.
Airlines, in Search of Relief, Warn of Bankruptcy
American Airlines, the world's largest carrier, said yesterday that it planned to return to only 80 percent of the schedule it flew before the attacks. Other airlines also questioned whether they would be able to match their previous schedules.
Security precautions adopted in the wake of this week's terrorist attacks will cut into the airlines' business, too. They are now barred from carrying mail and cargo in the bellies of their passenger planes; that alone will cost the industry billions of dollars, experts said.
"What we are seeing is a huge shift in the marketplace," Mr. Bethune said. He projected that Continental's sales would fall by half in the next 90 days.
Mr. Bethune is widely known for his outspokenness, but even some of the industry's staunchest critics are expressing concern.
"We do have a crisis here," said Kevin P. Mitchell, the chairman of the Business Travel Coalition, which lobbies on behalf of the airlines' largest corporate customers. "I might question the number, but I don't question the sense of urgency. I have been worried about this all week."
A shrinking airline industry spells trouble for many other businesses. Hotels and vacation spots will suffer. Airlines are also likely to put off deliveries of new planes from Boeing and Airbus, or even cancel orders.
Mr. Bethune said he talked yesterday with Jeffrey Immelt, the new chairman of General Electric, which has a large aviation-related business. "They have huge problems," he said. "We have 100 new airplanes financed by G.E. G.E. is also the exclusive supplier of our engines and does our maintenance."
21104. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 3:25:38 PM
I don't suppose this horror will serve to bring the airlines back under regulation? Nah...Privatization cures all. Amen. Thank you, Jesus.
How about Monday we switch most of the people and money being wasted on the futile and destructive war on some drugs to transportation security?
21105. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 4:09:34 PM
Union tells pilots to be agressive...
WASHINGTON (AP) -- With terrorists now using aircraft as weapons, a union representing commercial airline pilots is advising its members to act aggressively when confronted by hijackers.
Pilots have been taught in yearly training sessions to cooperate with hijackers. But that was before Tuesday's terrorist attacks.
``We've been guarding against the traditional hijacker who wanted the aircraft on the ground and his monetary or political demands met,'' said David Richards, a US Airways pilot from Charlotte, N.C. ``Never ever did we dream they would be using the aircraft as weapons.''
21106. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 4:33:44 PM
Hey, there's $40 Billion on the table---Gimme some!
NEW YORK (AP) -- Airlines imposed drastic cutbacks Saturday in an effort to avoid bankruptcy after last week's terrorist attacks, with three major carriers slicing schedules by 20 percent and Continental Airlines furloughing one-fifth of its work force.
The industry, already hurting because of the economic slowdown, is expected to lose billions of dollars before the end of the year. Analysts say that without a huge bailout from the federal government, even the largest carriers could go out of business.
21107. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 6:05:05 PM
SEP 15, 2001
Numbers Dead, Missing, Unaccounted
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
(Filed at 5:19 p.m. ET)
NEW YORK:
World Trade Center: 4,963 missing; 152 dead.
Includes those on hijacked planes:
American Flight 11: 92 killed.
United Flight 175: 65 killed.
WASHINGTON:
Pentagon: 125 unaccounted for
American Flight 77: 64 killed
PENNSYLVANIA:
United FLight 93: 45 killed.
21108. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 6:28:23 PM
A long Guardian takeout on U.S. Intelligence operations and terrorism...
...The lesson for the US: money can't buy safety from terrorism...
....How America's addiction to technology and big budgets failed to pick up the signs of an imminent catastrophe...
When security-cleared visitors were taken into
the national security agency in Fort Meade, Maryland, their hosts, it is reported, used to play them an audio tape of Osama bin Laden talking to his mother. His satellite phone call had been intercepted by the largest and most powerful spy agency on earth.
The smug message to outsiders was clear: if we can listen to America's most wanted man making small talk with his family then believe us, he can't use the bathroom without Washington knowing.
But the NSA has probably stopped showing off like that. For this story demonstrates the US problem; they and their western allies possess a unique array of surveillance technology which became ultimately pointless. And the west's great intelligence failure will outclass Pearl Harbour in the history books.
21109. CalGal - 9/15/2001 10:54:12 PM
Boy, I was just watching Fox and the anti-airline rhetoric is pretty huge. Mary Schiavo just doesn't like them at all.
21110. Shannon - 9/15/2001 10:57:26 PM
You want to show your religious faith, you people? Use the brain God gave you!
Works for me. But what do I know, being agnostic and all? My mom is constantly battling the "if it's written down, it must be true" thing as well.
There was a happier follow-up on our local TV news tonight. The story of the restaurant owner apparently appalled a lot of people, who showed up there today (many also sent flowers, letters, etc.) in such huge numbers that the parking lot overflowed and the guy said he was about to run out of food.
21111. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 11:03:45 PM
We had the opposite happen here. Our truckstop owner tried to price gouge gas and he was arrested, sued, and got very bad publicity, plus the network of truckdrivers can devastate a business. Bob went by there today, heading to his competition, and said his parking lot was almost empty. You certainly won't see our cars on it again.
21112. CalGal - 9/15/2001 11:07:36 PM
I posted this in the Attack thread but it probably would get lost, and I'm feeling a tad bummed about it.
I have some minor sad news: both my stepmother and little sister are having more problems than I anticipated. It's so odd; I didn't really connect anti-Arabic prejudice with
them. It didn't occur to me until the night before last that you know, there were some Arab Americans in my family. (I'm slow that way.)
Anyway, Safia had enough problems at work she was worried about losing her job; my dad had to call the boss up and blast him a few times. My stepmother hasn't had any issues at work, but the store she goes to weekly to pick up Arab foodstuffs is inundated by nasties who scream at the customers.
21113. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 11:17:09 PM
Oh my. I'm glad your dad has been aggressive about it. I would think there could be legal action taken if she lost her job, couldn't there? I haven't heard of any incidents here. The universities have some Arab professors and exchange students. An imam, black, not Arab, participated in a multi-religion service in LR, I think on Friday.
21114. CalGal - 9/15/2001 11:28:16 PM
There would be if she lost her job because of discrimination, but what was happening is that her co-workers and, probably, customers were making shitty remarks and she finally blew up. The boss chewed her out and told her that if she couldn't control herself there was no place for her at his store. Jeers and good riddances that she thinks the boss couldn't help but hear. She went home in tears, dad called and the boss was a tad too dismissive. My dad had to go in and snarl about it in person and, when the boss figured it out (or pretended to) he had the grace to apologize and say he didn't know what was going on. Eh.
Dad wasn't too sympathetic with Saf, which I thought was a good idea--my sister is gorgeous and overly sensitive, some toughening will be good for her. He told her he'd consider disowning her if she quit; I told her to refrain from blowing up in front of customers and to come up with some properly casual insults to toss off in return.
21115. CalGal - 9/15/2001 11:35:43 PM
Lord knows I wasn't a Babs Olson fan, but PoJ's passive aggressive snipe about Spud had me curious. Here's what he said:
I am noting a certain strand of deep irony in Barbara Olson's death.
Her husband, Ted Olson, was the lawyer who devised the air-traffic controllers' strike of 1981 and advised President Reagan throughout it.
The aftermath of that strike --which was in fact principally over needed improvements in the air-traffic infrastructure, but which was sold to the public as being about pay raises -- is largely responsible for the current horrendous state of air travel, as nearly anyone in the air-traffic business can tell you. The system is in a constant state of near-failure because those improvements that were needed in 1981 still haven't taken place.
Likewise, the overstressed state of the current air-travel system has been blamed even before this tragedy for the increasingly lax state of security around air travel.
Not that Barbara Olson would have seen the causal connection.
Quite apart from being shitty, he's just fucking wrong about his "causal connection" having a damn thing to do with the attack.
Worse, that's one of the nicer comments on the thread. But at times like this, I sure don't miss him at all.
21116. arkymalarky - 9/16/2001 1:21:50 AM
I won't tell you the off-the-cuff, completely tasteless joke Bro made in an email, then. That's typical of him, though, and I did laugh, I'm ashamed to say. He's been very upset about all this, though.
WRT the job situation, Mose has had to learn to do some tongue-biting on her job, and I think it's been good for her. Under your sister's circumstances a few handy comebacks would be nice to have ready (though I know from experience it can be habit-forming ;-)), but her boss needs to be more vigilant if she's being harrassed by co-workers for her ethnicity.
21117. CalGal - 9/16/2001 1:25:59 AM
This is KC, after all; barring flat out attacks I doubt anything much will happen. But yes, I think the experience will be good for her--provided it doesn't get too severe. She's had a somewhat golden life--gorgeous, a tad spoiled, with all the assurance that comes from thinking that if she's polite enough and smiles nicely, everything will go her way.
This is not to say I approve of the anti-Arab prejudice, only that I don't think a mild experience of what the other half experiences will do her any harm. I know my dad will protect her, in the event that she needs it. I also think these are just kids being morons; from what my dad says nothing is going on at school.
21118. CalGal - 9/16/2001 1:26:34 AM
I doubt anything much will happen...in terms of her boss being more vigilant.
21119. arkymalarky - 9/16/2001 1:31:36 AM
If school is ok, that's good. Coworkers at any age can be a pain. That's why I stay away from mine.
Just kidding. I really like them, but then I don't have to work with them--just socialize a little bit between classes and in the lounge and only when I want to--and of course when one of them brings donuts.
21120. Absensia - 9/16/2001 1:35:06 AM
Cal,
Mary Schiavo gets around. She's on CNN now, discussing the "shoot or not to shoot" situation.
I'm very sorry to hear about your sister and stepmom. They don't deserve that kind of crap. If her boss allows her co-employees or even customers to do that to her, she can sue her boss bigtime, depending on how many emplolyees there are there, etc. That would probably only make things worse, but thought I'd tell you.
21121. OhioSTOPAS - 9/16/2001 9:31:11 AM
For what it's worth, I distrust Mary Schiavo and find her to be a self-promoter.
She pulled a stunt a few years ago, smuggling a suspicious package into the Columbus airport in order to demonstrate that procedures were lax. However, the package was discovered, shutting the airport down for hours.
21122. joezan - 9/16/2001 9:43:39 AM
If that were you or I, we'd be growing old in Leavenworth.
Of course, we're not members of the 4th Estate.
21123. judithathome - 9/16/2001 10:17:01 AM
Arky, was that THE truckstop?
Shannon, I'm so glad to hear things worked out for that guy; some good news following bad is a nice way to end the story.
21124. CalGal - 9/16/2001 10:23:38 AM
No, actually, she's not a member of the 4th estate. I forget her actual government job right now, but she was a self-promoting pain in the ass while doing her job, and then went off to become a lobbyist.
Ohio,
That was her. I've disliked her for a while now.
21125. arkymalarky - 9/16/2001 10:45:59 AM
Yep, Judith. No more western omelets for us.
21126. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 6:01:39 PM
Slate has this informative piece from an Oakland firefighter about FEMA's Urban Search and Rescue Teams.
One of the 28 teams stages out of our burg and as far as I know they've been camped out at the airport since Tuesday/Wednesday, waiting on a call.
21127. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 6:48:34 PM
The New York Times Magazine---After the Fall
21128. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 8:29:55 PM
Mayor on Grim Note As NY Struggles
Sunday, September 16, 2001 8:02 p.m. EDT
By HILLEL ITALIE Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - With hopes fading on Sunday that any more survivors would be found amid the dust, steam and gore that is now the World Trade Center, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani urged New Yorkers not to cower before terrorism.
``The life of the city goes on,'' said Giuliani. He said 180 people had been confirmed dead, 115 of whom had been identified. Eighteen city firefighters were among the confirmed dead, including two top officials. The total number of missing was raised by more than 100 on Sunday, to 5,097.
``The recovery effort continues and the hope is still there that we might be able to save some lives. But the reality is that in the last several days we haven't found anyone,'' Giuliani said.
21129. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 8:43:05 PM
Home-grown terror
MESA, Ariz. (AP) -- An Indian-immigrant gas station owner was shot to death and a Lebanese-American clerk was targeted, but not injured, by gunfire at another Mesa gas station, police said Sunday.
Shots were also fired at a home where a family of Afghani descent live.
Frank Roque, 42, was charged with attempted murder in two of the three attacks Saturday, and police were investigating the possibility that the crimes were linked to Tuesday's terror attacks in New York and Washington.
Around the country, several apparent backlash attacks and threats have been reported against people of Middle Eastern descent.
The East Valley Tribune reported that Roque shouted, ``I stand for America all the way,'' as he was handcuffed Saturday night.
21130. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 8:56:46 PM
An understandable mistake...
Reports have emerged that the detention of two Indian citizens at Singapore's Changi international airport may have stemmed from a misunderstanding. The pair were traveling to Hong Kong. One of them made a remark to another passenger as they stood on the tarmac, which the hearer may have misheard, interpreting the phrase "bass guitarist" as "Bosnian terrorist." (Agence France Press)
21131. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 2:46:18 PM
Ooops! Wrong again!
• The CIA said that, contrary some lawmakers' assertions, there are no barriers to CIA recruitment of people, including those with unsavory reputations, who are needed to infiltrate terrorist groups. Spokesman Bill Harlow commented in response to repeated calls in recent days for an easing of perceived recruiting constraints so the CIA can collect information on those responsible for last week's terrorist hijackings and attacks. "The CIA has never turned down a field request to recruit an asset in a terrorist organization,'' Harlow said. "Furthermore, the CIA does not avoid contact with individuals, regardless of their past, who may have information about terrorist activities." (Washington Post)
21132. OhioSTOPAS - 9/17/2001 2:53:34 PM
robert - You must be mistaken. I heard Newt Gingrich say the opposite on TV this weekend.
And he's never wrong.
21133. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 3:40:23 PM
Heh-heh-heh. Isn't it good to see Newt back in action? As is said of Aggies, "Frequently in error, never in doubt."
21134. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 3:46:52 PM
Bejhat, the face of an Afghan woman...
Students and nurses formed the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan in 1977. Two years later, the Soviet Union invaded, forcing Afghans into a war of resistance. Life for women fell apart as they were battered by wave after wave of misogynistic violence. Male warriors in the country freely attacked girls and women: the Soviet invaders, the fundamentalist Afghan "freedom fighters," and, from the mid-1990s to the present, the Taliban. Yet women activists have not surrendered. "We will not give up on this situation," says Bejhat. "We struggle not only for our own rights, but for the rights of all women.”
21135. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 5:26:04 PM
Coulda been worse...
The Dow tumbled 679 points, or 7.07 percent, to end at 8,920.70, according to the latest data, the lowest since December 1998. The previous largest point-loss was 617.78 points on April 14, 2000.
The Nasdaq composite index sank 116.09 points, or 6.85 percent, to 1,579.28, the lowest close since October 1998. The benchmark Standard & Poor's 500 index was rocked for a 53.81-point loss, or 4.9 percent, at 1,038.73, also the lowest since October 1998.
Amid record-breaking volume, airlines, hotels, and leisure-related stocks suffered the most intense selling, while the few winners included defense contractors like Raytheon and hand gun maker Sturm Ruger Co. as investors bet on U.S. retaliation and consumers becoming more security conscious.
I understand Ruger makes a real nice .45.
21136. CalGal - 9/17/2001 6:18:05 PM
US Air lays off 10,000.
21137. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 7:23:47 PM
I expect these notices will be coming out all week. The airlines have their lobbyists and PR people going flat out for a massive bailout gift ($5 Billion?) and who knows how much in loan guarantees.
These layoff announcements are the equivalent of kidnappers sending body parts along with the ransom note. Extortion is what it is. And dubya and the congress are going to go for it with some dems leading the way. Private profits and socialized losses. God bless free enterprise.
Some of these carriers were in deep do-do due to their own reckless management and bad decisions. Continental, for one, greatly overexpanded and was in trouble before 9/11/01.
But, but, but... Carriers will go bankrupt. The industry might go down. Alarmist bullshit. Are they going to destroy the aircraft and blowup the terminals?
Of course not. People want to fly. Many think they have to fly. All are willing to pay. So the aircraft will eventually be back in the air. Under wiser management, one hopes.
Any taxpayer aid ought to come with a plan for re-regulation and federal security. And no gifts. None.
I don't mind loan guarantees. The Chrysler deal worked out---after a fashion.
And where would we be without the Viper, the Prowler, and the PT Cruiser?
21138. CalGal - 9/17/2001 7:26:08 PM
All won't be willing to pay. Not if prices go up too much and stay there.
21139. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 9:10:20 PM
And another thing, get some regulation back in the system and get rid of a lot of the FedEx hub and spoke routing. Stop treating people as packages (for which the system is just swell) and take them where they want to go.
Security? Easy. Switch most of the people and money from the failed drug war into transportation security. Presto.
21140. CalGal - 9/17/2001 9:13:02 PM
I'll go along with the last. But hub and spoke routing was one of the major reasons flying became so affordable--at least, I think so. I should check, though.
21141. joezan - 9/17/2001 11:00:47 PM
I agree with rjb - call their bluff (the bailout they're asking for is $20B, btw).
What've we got - 40, 50,000 planned layoffs so far? Maybe double or triple that in a couple of weeks?
I see this as a major boon for the military. We'll be in recession, nobody'll be hiring. ...Except the armed forces. Here we'll have 100,000 skilled, bloodthirsty ex-flyboys and girls, looking to avenge the deaths of their colleagues.
Pilots, mechanics, air traffic controllers - coming out our ears...
...hmmmmnnn.
We might not even need the draft.
It's a win-win, if you ask me.
21142. arkymalarky - 9/17/2001 11:06:29 PM
A war and a bad economy! What a winning combination!
21143. bubbaette - 9/18/2001 9:01:13 AM
Yippee, bin laden's wrecked the economy -- maybe we can suspend minimum wage!!
There has been talk of closing National Airport in Arlington --thousands out of work, what a boon! Whole industries knocked to their knees --but the army can hire cheap (the young folk, anyhow -- you geezers are just SOL.) But that's war!
Air service is a huge part of our economy and, as I understand it, runs on a very thin margin. It's been shut down entirely for days and may resume on a reduced schedule -- all through no fault of the airline companies. But screw them and the part they play in the economy. Screw the thousands and thousands of the people who work in that industry who just lost their livlihood due to terrorist attacks. Serves em right, huh Joezan?
21144. ScottLoar - 9/18/2001 9:13:02 AM
Reading the posts of the last several days reveals the person behind each moniker and most of it is not too pretty, but most pathetic are the men who can't pull themselves together yet bully others.
21145. robertjayb - 9/18/2001 11:48:14 AM
Newspaper front pages from 9/11/01...
21146. robertjayb - 9/18/2001 11:57:11 AM
The Urban Search and Rescue team that has been camped here since the first of last week got underway for New York yesterday...they left out of Austin in a couple of C-141s. Sadly, it seems there will be no rescues...
21147. janjon - 9/18/2001 12:45:39 PM
I certainly concur with robertj's comments about subsidies for the bloated and mostly absurdly run airlines. Private profits and subsidized losses indeed.
loan guarantees at most. If it was good enough for Chrysler it ought to be good enough for USAir, etc.
21148. bubbaette - 9/18/2001 1:11:00 PM
Was Chrysler brought to bankruptcy because it was shut down by the government for reasons of national security in response to a national catastrophe?
21149. janjon - 9/18/2001 1:22:43 PM
not all, but certainly, some of the airlines were close to b-ruptcy's door before 9/11.
of course, the events of the last week have made a bad situation intolerable and, of course, appropriate governmental assistance is appropriate and desirable. Just not out and out grants.
21150. robertjayb - 9/18/2001 3:34:55 PM
Looks like the handwriting is on the flagpole WRT the airline giveaway:
Bush Administration Moves Ahead with Airline Bailout (Reuters)
21151. janjon - 9/18/2001 3:48:21 PM
Airlines were among the deepest and I mean deepest (both above and below the board) pockets for W's election campaign.
So it goes.
21152. robertjayb - 9/19/2001 6:03:14 PM
It is reliably reported that the annual NRA banquet here last night drew a record crowd.
21153. robertjayb - 9/22/2001 1:18:27 PM
Yates okay for trial...
HOUSTON -- A jury on Saturday found a Houston mother accused of drowning her five children competent to stand trial on capital murder charges.
The 11-woman, one-man jury deliberated for more than eight hours over two days before deciding Andrea Yates sufficiently understands the charges against her and has the ability to consult with her attorneys.
21154. judithathome - 9/22/2001 1:24:11 PM
Good.
21155. labwabbit - 9/22/2001 1:33:19 PM
When all is said and done, we will have all discovered that we were competent to stand trial.
...but most instead had chosen to sit it out.
21156. labwabbit - 9/22/2001 1:39:03 PM
signed,
Chairman of the Horde
21157. robertjayb - 9/24/2001 2:47:31 PM
Stick around, Fred, you'll be needed if we go nuclear...
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Republican Sen. Fred Thompson said Monday he had been leaning against running for a second full term next year until the terrorist attacks convinced him that ``now is clearly not the time to leave.''
``Seeing all that happen and all those people looking for ways to contribute when I had one right here before me in my lap, so to speak, it became obvious,'' he said in announcing that he will run again.
``This is probably not the best time in the world to say something political,'' he added, ``but I think it's time to go ahead and address it and get it behind us so that we can get on with our business.''
21158. glendajean - 9/24/2001 3:15:07 PM
According to the Washington Blade, President Bush has appointed an openly gay man as ambassador to Romania.
21159. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 12:54:24 AM
Toasted Teddy...
STAMFORD, Conn., (AP) - A city man has been charged with reckless burning after police say he set fire to a teddy bear he claims was "possessed."
Police said Lucson Aladin, 32, burned a teddy bear in his back yard Sunday as part of a voodoo ritual because he believed it was possessed and he was trying to rid it of evil spirits.
Aladin was charged with reckless burning.
21160. Absensia - 9/26/2001 12:57:14 AM
I wonder what the charge would have been if he'd been burning Barbie dolls? Everyone knows they are possessed.
21161. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 5:59:47 PM
All is lost...
General Motors will stop producing the Camaro.
The barbarians have won.
21162. glendajean - 9/26/2001 6:08:58 PM
and it's Pontiac version, the Firebird.
21163. ScottLoar - 9/26/2001 6:22:25 PM
Message # 21161: The loss to Latino culture will be greater.
21164. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 7:08:16 PM
Another horror...
LAKEVILLE, Mass. -- Every autumn, Doug Beaton and his workers wade into the cranberry bogs his family has farmed for five generations, raking in bright red, ripened berries at harvest time.
This year, something is different. The berries are white.
"It looks weird," laughs Beaton, overseeing workers heaping the floating berries onto a conveyor belt. "I'm a traditionalist, and I like the red stuff. But other people like this."
That's the hope for the grower-owned Ocean Spray cooperative, which is turning out a new line of white cranberry juice products it hopes will appeal to young families with a milder, less tart flavor.
21165. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 7:27:34 PM
SUV demand dooms Camaro, Firebird...(Detroit News)
21166. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 10:01:16 PM
Thursday September 27, 2001
(The Guardian)
The global economy stands on the brink of its first recession in almost 10 years... as the devastating impact of the attacks on New York and Washington on September 11 ripples out from the United States to the rest of the world, the International Monetary Fund warned last night.
In an unusually blunt and downbeat assessment of the prospects for the global economy, the IMF dealt a severe blow to concerted attempts by policymakers to restore confidence to markets left shattered by the deaths of more than 6,000 people and the widespread damage to the world's financial capital.
The IMF, which even before the events of two weeks ago had cut sharply its forecasts for growth in both developed and developing countries, said that the outcome would now be even worse.
"There is no doubt that the attack is having a negative effect on activity now in many regions of the globe, and that it has increased what were already significant risks to the short-term global outlook, including for emerging economies", said Kenneth Rogoff, the IMF chief economist.
21167. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 11:45:50 PM
Blonde ambition...
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (Reuters) -Brazilian (news - web sites) metalworker Andrea Eloisa da Silva is no ``dumb blonde.''
After listening to her boss repeatedly call her just that in front of colleagues, the 32-year-old Silva sued him and won $1,300 in moral damages plus recognition that she was unduly fired -- which paves the way for more compensation.
``It is an unprecedented decision on moral damages for blondes,'' Alexandre Santoro, a spokesman for the regional labor court that ruled in Silva's favor, said on Tuesday.
``The judge determined that the term 'dumb blonde' violated the dignity of the employee,'' he said.
21168. robertjayb - 9/28/2001 3:23:44 PM
Good taste, good fun, good grief?
McALLEN, Texas (AP) -Pinatas bearing the likeness of Osama bin Laden have caused a stir in this border town.
The owners of JJ's Party House received 10 papier-mache bin Ladens from a Mexican pinata maker Wednesday. Rene and Lala Karam said they had planned to donate profits to New York firefighters, but now they may not even put the pinatas out for sale.
"I've received at least 100 calls since yesterday," Rene Karam said. "People are saying, 'How can you be so greedy as to make money off a national tragedy?'"
The Karams have sold pinatas of notable and notorious figures including Monica Lewinsky and Saddam Hussein in the past. They say this is the first time such items drew anger.
Karam, who is of Lebanese descent, said that many callers Thursday complained he was reinforcing negative stereotypes of people from the Middle East.
21169. robertjayb - 9/28/2001 4:25:29 PM
Australian circles in on milk bottle record
SYDNEY, Sept 28 (AFP) -
Sri Lankan-born Suresh Joachim aims to set his 17th world record here this weekend by walking in circles in a downtown Sydney square for 133km (85 miles) balancing a full bottle of milk on his head.
Joachim has already registered 16 records into the Guinness Book of Records, including balancing on one foot for 76.5 hours, standing motionless for 21.5 hours and non-stop crawling for 56.62km.
The 32-year-old from Penrith, in Sydney's western suburbs, said Friday his latest trick was to raise money for the Universal Fund for Suffering Children (UFFORSC).
This is the sort of thing that comes from living upside down.
21170. janjon - 9/28/2001 5:01:15 PM
a full bottle, eh. he probably wants to sell the resulting cream to maximize his return from this venture.
32, eh. one finds that hard to believe.
21171. robertjayb - 9/28/2001 7:26:26 PM
Getting it up---way up!
LONDON (Reuters) - Viagra, the blockbuster anti-impotence drug, could help men scale ever greater heights.
Scientists at Hammersmith Hospital in London have shown that the drug that gives a lift to flagging sex lives can also help people breathe more easily at high altitudes and on mountaineering expeditions where oxygen levels are low.
When Professor Martin Wilkins and scientists at the National Center for Cardiology in Kyrgyzstan tested Viagra on people breathing low levels of oxygen, they found that the same enzyme that constricts blood flow to the penis and prevents erections also produced breathlessness at high altitudes by constricting arteries in the lungs.
Viagra blocks the action of this enzyme.
21172. robertjayb - 10/1/2001 2:03:22 PM
Pecker Check
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Indian men may soon be able to buy condoms tailor-made to give a perfect fit.
Stung by the high failure rate of condoms, India's Health Ministry has launched a project to study the size of male organs across the country and make condoms of different sizes instead of the single size presently available, the Indian Express newspaper reported on Saturday.
The project in seven centers around the country will use volunteers at hospitals and measure the length and width of their fully erect penises with a digital camera, the paper said.
21173. judithathome - 10/1/2001 2:11:20 PM
I'm guessing they will really have to like digital cameras for this to work...
21174. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 2:26:19 PM
The Japanese already have different sized condoms, I thought. I remember Dennis Miller doing a bit on it for the SNL Weekend Update.
"Yes, they come in three sizes now. Small, medium and Emperor. In fact, I'm wearing an Emperor right now."
whereupon he hiked his foot up onto the desk to display a condom fitted over the end of his cowboy boot.
21175. mgleason - 10/1/2001 2:32:32 PM
Someone once told me that he ordered custom condoms on a regular basis, but they were nothing to write home about, from what I understand. Heck, I'd have made sure they had all the bells and whistles.
21176. judithathome - 10/1/2001 2:33:50 PM
Anyone ever read Walk On The Wild Side?
21177. Absensia - 10/1/2001 2:39:00 PM
Bells and whistles could hurt.
21178. judithathome - 10/1/2001 2:39:01 PM
Because until I read that book, I'd never even thought about where condoms came from...the idea of a condom factory just boggled my mind.
21179. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 2:41:58 PM
condoms: a necessary evil.
21180. mgleason - 10/1/2001 2:43:21 PM
By Nelson Algren? Nope, but Lou Reed based his song on it, so I've heard the abridged version.
21181. Absensia - 10/1/2001 2:46:52 PM
India's serious about birth control, I see. A couple of weeks ago I read an article from the CNN site that said the Indian gov. was thinking of giving cheap t.v. sets to all, hoping they'd stay up late and watch t.v., instead of going to bed early to procreate.
21182. judithathome - 10/1/2001 2:55:42 PM
MG:
Yes, by Algren...try to read the book; it's much richer than the excellent song. :-)
21183. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 4:34:22 PM
I heard on the radio this morning that students in a Souther California high-school are presenting a case before the school board for better sex education.
It seems they are quite PO'd that their friends keep dropping out of highschool to have babies while the school continues to teach nothing but abstinence.
It's a sad day when children must fight against their parents to ensure that they receive vital education.
21184. labwabbit - 10/1/2001 5:14:18 PM
MsNo
Today I buried W-Dawg.
You were the only one who knew of him here.
He was a great healer...and will continue to be in my hearts. He was needed somewhere else to soothe the pain of others who needed it more I guess.
But God...it hurts.
Thought I would tell you.
21185. judithathome - 10/1/2001 5:16:37 PM
I may not have know of him but I'm terribly sorry for your loss, Lab...
21186. AuNaturel - 10/1/2001 5:18:32 PM
" read Walk On The Wild Side?"
No, but I like the song.
21187. judithathome - 10/1/2001 5:19:33 PM
The song was good but the book was a different bag of tricks.
21188. labwabbit - 10/1/2001 5:22:20 PM
Thanks Judith.
I'm crying like a fool...and I haven't cried since my baby brother was killed in 81. What a chasm that guy is leaving behind. His heart is incomparable, served unfailingly until we could say goodbye...and still he tried to do his job to calm us till his last breath.
Today I buried a dear, dear friend.
21189. AuNaturel - 10/1/2001 5:24:30 PM
"It's a sad day when children must fight against their parents to ensure that they receive vital education."
The school was in Orange County. Sex there is illegal unless you are married, heterosexual missionaries and don't enjoy it.
The kids were really pissed that abstinance was the only "sex (non)education" allowed by the board.
21190. AuNaturel - 10/1/2001 5:38:16 PM
Labwabbit:
I feel for you. We had to euthanize our dog of 14 years when she got terminal cancer. I held her as she slipped away from the injection. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do but I could not let her die alone and among uncaring strangers. That was 3 months ago and I still get dewey-eyed when I think about it and our 9 year old son stil misses her as well.
Even our other two dogs (6 years and 6 months) seemed stressed out for weeks afterwards. They'd lost their "mother" too.
Go here: Pet Poems and Stories for a real good cry.
21191. labwabbit - 10/1/2001 6:21:23 PM
AN
Thank you so very much. "Giving our hearts for a dog to tear..." that was always a question when I would think of when he would pass. But given completely I have...still no answer came close.
Now he has gone...and the answer is going to be forever beyond my ability to know it.
21192. robertjayb - 10/1/2001 7:26:13 PM
Sorry, labwabbit...
"If I have any beliefs about immortality,
it is that certain dogs I have known will go to heaven,
and very, very few persons."
by James Thurber
21193. Absensia - 10/1/2001 7:42:03 PM
Lab and UN,
It wasn't that long ago I held my dog, with her lap in my head while she slipped away. She was a close and caring friend for 13 years and I miss her so much and cried and cried, and some times still do, as one does when thinking of a much loved friend who has died.
I am very sorry for both of your losses.
21194. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 11:22:22 PM
Oh no.
I'm so sorry, Labwabbit. What a wonderful friend you've had to say goodbye to.
If you think it silly that you cry, it's even sillier that I am, but the older I get the more I believe that it's the silly and illogical things we do that make us truly human.
"I talk to him when I'm lonesome like,
and I'm sure he understands.
When he looks at me so attentively,
and gently licks my hands;
Then he rubs his nose on my tailored clothes,
but I never say naught thereat,
For the good Lord knows I can buy more clothes,
but never a friend like that!"
- W. Dayton Wedgefarth
A toast to faithful companions with cold noses!
21195. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 11:23:54 PM
AuN,
It's good to see you around! Once again I'm glad I no longer live in Orange County.
21196. arkymalarky - 10/1/2001 11:52:08 PM
I'm so sorry, Lab.
21197. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 12:36:49 PM
I thought I had seen...no, experienced the worst of mankind's hate and distrust. As a result I knew...I knew, that I would never allow myself to love any one thing ever again. I held to that promise, and became a hardened fortress against anything that could hurt my heart or spirit again. I responded to any hurt with anger and defiance...and with a passion that only years of anger and defiance could have created. I thought I could love...I thought I did love...but I came to know it was only to a certain point...and my family and those around me were consistantly locked out without conscious effort on my part. I learned how not to love. There was a point, and when I reached that point where the scars from old wounds would be exposed, the anger and defiance unerringly came to my rescue, I never believed that I could ever feel, or even wanted to know how, to give of my heart completely ...and even more unlikely...willingly.
But I came to know how love can win. I came to know how it can never lose. I came to know through the lessons of a wonderful gift, that special gift...that unlikely source that my defences never seen coming. The lessons of my dog.
21198. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 12:37:03 PM
Lessons that came through "that look in his ears" as my son coined. Lessons that came with the quiet strength he never once failed to communicate... clearly but ever so gently. The perfect mediator through the hardest and saddest, and in my case the angriest of times. He never failed to step forward to the task, and he never had more allegiance to any one else. That included anyone else within OR outside the family. Didn't matter. Where their was pain he was there...administered through a tail that nothing could stop...and nothing ever did...nor as I realize now- ever will. In our struggles of the heart...he won...unconditonally...accepting my surrender while basking in the warmth it gave all who knew me...and me.
So now I sit here typing what I, in a past time, would have considered goofy and silly. I now know how to love completely again and thus will always feel all other emotions more completely...except one. I owe this to a dog. A dog. My heart is completely asunder but stronger than ever...I have been made completely vunerable...am I am the luckiest man alive to feel so indebted for doing so. Thank you for a job well done boy. ..and thank you for making our family so happy and stronger.
Thank you Christin, robert, AuNaturel, arkus, and Absensia. Thank you for making me feel a little less lonely today.
21199. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 12:40:34 PM
I am so sorry Judith...thank you as well.
21200. ronski - 10/2/2001 12:46:48 PM
labwabbit,
Sorry to hear about your dog. I buried a 25-year-old cat last year, and a 20-year-old one this past summer. It's hard to say goodbye to our pets. They continue to tug at our heartstrings long after they're gone.
21201. Absensia - 10/2/2001 1:04:10 PM
Wabby,
Thank you for putting your heartfelt and beautiful thoughts here. It is not eary to bare one's soul but you have done so and with great love.
21202. judithathome - 10/2/2001 1:06:56 PM
Echo from me, Lab...
21203. robertjayb - 10/2/2001 1:56:48 PM
Bearly believable...
---Toddler Found Safe in Bear's Den After 3 Days--
TEHRAN (Reuters) - A mother bear appears to have cared for a missing 16-month-old Iranian toddler who was found safe and sound three days later in the animal's den, the Kayhan newspaper said Tuesday.
The child's parents, from a nomadic tribe in western Lorestan province, returned to their tent after working in the fields to find him missing, Kayhan said.
Three days later, a search party found the baby, who they said had probably been breast fed by a mother bear, in a den some six miles away from the nomadic settlement. A medical examination showed the baby was in good health, the daily said.
21204. Absensia - 10/2/2001 2:00:04 PM
Amazing, and I refuse to given into those cheap "bearing one's breast" kind of puns. (g)
21205. Ms. No - 10/2/2001 2:07:52 PM
Wow.
That's really cool.
21206. AuNaturel - 10/2/2001 2:51:37 PM
Dogs are espscially good at breaking into the fortress of the heart. Pets are our friends when the whole world hates us. They don't care if we are fat, ugly, impoverished and unpopular. All they care about is a little love and some food.
Our dog was named Amber. We got her from the pound before we even got married and she helped raise two children andout two other dogs. She had a dominant personality and kept the other canines twice her size in line. She was very crotchety and imperious at time with them. We called her Amber, Queen of the Universe and the chair that she prefered to lie in was her throne.
When our daughter (Rebecca) was barely a week old, we had placed her on a blanket in the middle of the living room floor surrounded by pillows. We went upstairs to fold laundry. Moments later Amber canme running upstairs barking and whining, then downstairs and then up again. We went down to see what was up and somehow our daughter had rolled out of her confinement (she was able to roll at 2 days old!) and kept on rolling until she had hit the bricking around the fireplace and had a bruise on her head.
Another time we had an guy who was a friend of the family (Randal) for for a babysitter. Everything was fine until we left, at which time Amber planted herself on the stairs between our friend and Rebecca's room and would not budge. Randal is six foot four and three hundred twenty pounds and thirty five pound Amber stood her ground against him, growling and snarling. It took him an hour to maneuver her into a room where he could shut her in and then have access to Rebecca.
21207. AuNaturel - 10/2/2001 2:52:27 PM
She was a good dog for the outdoors. We could let our kinds run free in any area she was in. She would find rattlesnakes around our vacation trailer in the mountains so I could remove them and when we went on hikes she would explore ahead, finding snakes before we would get to them.
One time we went camping at Sequioa Nat. Pk. She was extremely nervous, anxious and on edge. We just chalked it up to old age and being in a strange place. Too bad we didn't listen to her because that night a bear ripped the side window out of our van.
She was good with all kids but aggressive towards strange adults. I never had fear for my children's safety when she was around. As she got older she wasn't able to climb trees and boulders as before (We took her on our honeymoon and discovered her propensity for climbing anythingand everything!) and she started showing s grumpy demeanor when being put outside in cold weather. We still loverd her as the old lady of the house and bought her an insulated rain coat and a heated pad so she wouldn't be so unconfortable.
The end came when she started getting weak. We took her to the vet and discovered an inoperable tumor involving both her liver and bladder. Thankfully, it was largely a painless malignancy. We could not have dealt with her in pain. All we could do was keep her comfortable, feed her special food and love her as much as we could.
We took her one last time to our trailer, a place she loved well. You could see the quiet pleasure she got from being in her favorite place. She even found a rattlesnake to bark at.
21208. AuNaturel - 10/2/2001 2:52:41 PM
A week later she could no longer walk. She could barely even hold her head up. It was too painful for us to see her this way and we couldn't imagine she wanted to go on that way either, so we had her euthanized.
The entire family cried for weeks afterwards. She had been with us longer than we'd been married and our children had never known a day without her. My son asked why we had pets if it hurts so much when they died. All I could do was hold him until we both stopped crying and then I explained to him we keep them for all the happiness they bring us and we need them because they teach us how to love each other.
21209. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 3:39:07 PM
AuNaturel
My son asked why we had pets if it hurts so much when they died. All I could do was hold him until we both stopped crying and then I explained to him we keep them for all the happiness they bring us and we need them because they teach us how to love each other.
Bottom line...perfect. Amazing that so great an understanding can come from something that doesn't need words to teach.
21210. AuNaturel - 10/2/2001 3:46:37 PM
Does anyone remember the video of the boy who fell into the gorilla pen at the zoo? He was unconscience (broken skull) after falling into the pit around the enclosure. One of the females swooped down on him, picked him up and cradled him. She even carried him to the entrance the zoo personel would enter to maintain the enclsoure.
21211. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 3:54:18 PM
Ronski,
Oh ya...that'a long time...a lot of memories there.
Makes you wonder just what kind of person you would be if not for that presence. What is wondrous is that, even more so, after all that time, you are unable to imagine what it would have been like without them.
21212. thoughtful - 10/2/2001 5:09:48 PM
So sorry about your loss, labwabbit.
I remember reading an article where they did a test checking someone's blood pressure while doing a task and while their dog looked on vs. doing the same task while their spouse looked on....guess which one was higher!
21213. Ms. No - 10/2/2001 5:24:23 PM
Dogs and cats are used in all kinds of therapy and have had remarkable results in reaching those folks medicine and the rest of humankind just can't get through to.
My own dog is still too young and hyper to work as a therapy dog, but hopefully in a year we'll be able to volunteer at some of the local elderly hospices.
21214. Shannon - 10/3/2001 8:44:52 AM
10 Die in Bus Crash after Driver's Throat Slit
Someone emailed me a story from Newsday, which said 6 died. Sounds like the details are sketchy right now. Greyhound has halted all service for now.
21215. judithathome - 10/3/2001 9:48:44 AM
Drudge must have slept in this morning...he doesn't seem to have a word about it on his site.
21216. Adrianne - 10/3/2001 10:03:29 AM
Labwabbit
I'm sorry about your dog.
My Otis died in March, a week after the birth of my daughter Groucho. He was almost 13 years old, and the sweetest, fattest, smelliest, most protective and gentle big guy in the world. I'm heartbroken that Groucho won't know him - Fang! adored him, and he, her.
We're trying to get geared up for a puppy around Xmas time, but my heart just isn't in it. Not yet.
21217. labwabbit - 10/3/2001 2:41:14 PM
Thoughtful,
Well...you are. Thank You. I know I'm feeling more stressed now that he's gone if that means anything to the statistics.
Adrianne,
Thank you...and I about Otis as well dear lady.
I've owned many dogs. Mostly the working type. Hunting and farm chores. There were the special ones among those, and I was truly saddened by the loss of each and the special traits and habits that endeared them to me. However, this is the first time, I truly believe, that replacement is highly unlikely. This guy was most special amongst the special. He did things on a regular basis that continued to cause us to shake our head in utter amazement right up to the end. I can't begin to describe this animal. Anyone who met him and got to know him couldn't believe the things this guy knew and responded to. They constantly were testing his comprehension of words, and mannerisms, trying to trick him, not using tone or body language, and they always walked away in complete amazement. The many who come to know this guy over the years are near as broken up about this as we. He belonged to everyone, but to no ONE. You were a friend instantly, and only once in his life did he growl, (at the vet once for trying to do something without talking to him...heh). Never barked per se, a low-soft half-woof-half sigh once in awhile when somebody would walk by and not say something to him. And one really strange thing about him is that he had the same affect on EVERY other dog he ever met...even the meanest, or most undisciplined dogs would be calmed and befriended, and total mutual acceptance was almost instantly achieved...without fail...not once...anywhere. Stranger still was that many cats from all over the neighborhood would visit and stay with him in the yard. It boggles the mind. We would come home on many occasions and there would be cats, strays, sleeping next to him in his favorite place under a big pine tree. Not very often the same cat twice.
21218. labwabbit - 10/3/2001 2:41:24 PM
When I moved to Alaska, I drove across country because of him, instead of putting him in some cage in the dark on a plane etc, and the folks here thought that I was just one of those "dog people" because of my overt dedication to him....until they got to know him, as I brought him to the office very often with me. When I left for the office this morning, there were toys, flowers, and letters on his grave and I have no idea who left them...or when. I am still shaking my head.
But I prattle on...I apologize for the boorish as some may view.
But I, like yourself Adrianne, can not see a time where I may obtain another dog....just can't see ever reaching that point....yet.
21219. judithathome - 10/3/2001 2:54:23 PM
I know how you feel, Lab...Klaus is getting older and is slowing down a lot. I told Keoni there won't be another after he goes because it would be unfair to another dog. I just know none could measure up to Klaus.
21220. Absensia - 10/3/2001 3:05:19 PM
Lab,
You aren't prattling or boorish. Tell us more about your friend, please.
Judith and Lab,
I agree. I have not gotten a new puppy and can't. It would not be the same and my memories of Ms. Sophie are too strong.
21221. glendajean - 10/3/2001 3:07:52 PM
Lab -- so sorry about the loss of your dog.
They live such short lives. Much too short.
Thurber also once wrote that in language we ascribe all manner of negative behavior or values to dogs: it's a dog's life, dog-eat-dog, etc. But that they are truly noble in their love and devotion.
A toast to your departed friend.
21222. janjon - 10/3/2001 3:41:26 PM
One of the features at Pier 94, where until at least very recently, the families of WTC victims and displaced workers came to get death certificates, financial aid, counseling or other assistance was a group of "petting" dogs.
I understand this completely.
21223. robertjayb - 10/3/2001 4:15:05 PM
HIJACK>>>
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Indian airport authorities said Thursday they had reports that an Alliance Air aircraft had been hijacked on the way from Bombay to New Delhi.
``An Alliance plane from Bombay to New Delhi has been hijacked,'' Brijender Shekhar, an official at the Air Traffic Control at the Delhi airport, told Reuters.
Indian Airlines chairman Sunil Arora added:
``I have got a message that the last flight from Bombay, an Alliance Air flight, has indeed been hijacked. I am checking on these reports.''
CNN says the Boeing 737 has landed in New Delhi. No injuries reported.
21224. thoughtful - 10/3/2001 4:18:01 PM
labw, what a wonderful friend, and though sad, I know you are also thankful for having had the chance to have such a special creature in your life.
I don't know how or why but as much as we love all our pets are, there are always those who hold that special place in our hearts....I'm thinking of Tanya and of Thaddeus...dog and cat and each so wonderful in their own way. Then there was my dear cat Emily who was a natural empath. She would let us do the most horrible things to her without complaint...like when she had that absess on her face...because she knew we were helping her. And whenever we were sick she was always there for us, doing what she could to comfort. We got a new cat after several months after she died...not to replace her as no cat ever could, but because we need to have a pet to fill our home and our lives. We didn't expect to get another cat like her and we sure didn't...this one's a nut, has no sense of empathy, naturally distrusts everyone and is prone toward violence, but even at that he's wormed his way into our hearts. They all do.
21225. thoughtful - 10/3/2001 4:19:32 PM
One thing about pets....they all know when you wake up. I don't know how, but they do. My girlfriend used to say her dogs could hear her eyelids opening, but even if I just wake and don't move, somehow they know. Go figure.
21226. judithathome - 10/3/2001 7:13:52 PM
Evidently, that highjacking in India was a drill...not a real highjacking at all. However, whoever arranged to have it held is going to lose their job. The reports are saying it was extremely poor timing and passengers could've had heart attacks, given the climate of fear now.
21227. robertjayb - 10/4/2001 4:33:18 PM
An anthrax case in Florida...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - An isolated case of anthrax infection was confirmed on Thursday in a Florida hospital but there was no evidence of an assault, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said.
Appearing at the daily White House briefing, Thompson said the victim reported to a Florida hospital on Monday and was confirmed to have anthrax but Thompson said officials believed it was an isolated case.
``There is no evidence of terrorism,'' said Thompson, who also said the FBI and other agencies were investigating.
He said the 60-year-old British-born man from Lantana, Florida, could have picked up the infection from his clothes and was known to have drunk water from a creek recently.
21228. glendajean - 10/4/2001 4:39:42 PM
I don't know very much about Anthrax, but assumed that if anybody gets it is a big deal.
21229. ronski - 10/4/2001 4:51:16 PM
Anthrax is an disease of livestock and is occasionally picked up by humans in rural communities. If contracted by a means other than breathing it in, it tends not to be so deadly. The threat would come from an aerosolized form (the kind terrorists would try to create). The Aum cult in Japan released both anthrax and the much more deadly botulin toxin to absolutely no effect. They scored with seran, unfortunately, as we all know.
21230. robertjayb - 10/4/2001 4:51:45 PM
21231. labwabbit - 10/5/2001 2:49:16 PM
glendajean,
..much too short indeed. I honor your sympathy and have raised a cup as well.
thoughtful, (21224)
Of course you are correct...
Just stuck on the former more than the latter these days, but I'm certain a balnce will exentually be reached. Thanks for your kindness and understanding.
judith,
Get as many hugs and minutes of devotion as you can. It does produce a wonderful return in how we live.
janjon,
Do you find it strange that we can look to dogs instead of each other to provide such a mystical elixir of calm?
21232. labwabbit - 10/5/2001 2:59:44 PM
Oh...and Absensia...
You are a wonderful person. (I hope you are not upset that I let that information leak out) :->
21233. robertjayb - 10/5/2001 5:26:35 PM
R.I.P.
The guy with anthrax died this afternoon, says CNN.
21234. judithathome - 10/5/2001 5:29:58 PM
Bummer.
21235. robertjayb - 10/5/2001 5:41:27 PM
Cops use chopper to cop Krispy Kremes...
21236. wonkers2 - 10/5/2001 10:50:05 PM
Sounded like the guy may have got it from drinking out of a stream while hunting.
21237. robertjayb - 10/6/2001 9:12:03 PM
Make mine medium...
October 6, 2001, 3:34 PM EDT
MIAMI --(AP)-- About a dozen Burger King marketing-department workers burned their feet when they walked over white-hot coals at a meeting intended to promote bonding.
One woman was taken to a hospital emergency room, and Burger King brought in a doctor to treat others whose feet were blistered. Some workers used wheelchairs the next day when they went to the airport to leave for another company retreat.
More than 100 employees at the Ocean Reef Club in Key Largo participated Wednesday in the firewalking, a ritual with origins in religions of the Far East.
The Burger King workers had to sign a waiver acknowledging they might get hurt. The injured employees suffered first- and second-degree burns.
21238. robertjayb - 10/7/2001 11:20:32 PM
Yummy...Please pass the HDRs....
The food will come in the form of ``humanitarian daily rations,'' plastic pouches of food with added vitamins and minerals to invigorate refugees weakened by hunger and travel. The air drops will be focused on areas inside Afghanistan, not refugee camps in Pakistan and other bordering countries, Quigley said.
The food, wrapped so that one packet has enough for one person for one day, is rice-based and does not contain any animal products to avoid violating any religious or cultural practices, such as those of Muslims, who do not eat pork.
The yellow plastic packets have a picture of a smiling person eating from a pouch, a stencil of an American flag and the greeting in English, ``This food is a gift from the United States of America.'' The United States has a stockpile of about 2 million of the pouches, Quigley said.
The United States would try to prevent the Taliban from taking the food supplies, he said. The regime is sheltering bin Laden, the Saudi exile whose al-Qaida terror network is accused of carrying out the Sept. 11 attacks at the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon.
21239. joezan - 10/7/2001 11:55:47 PM
...The yellow plastic packets have a picture of a smiling person eating from a pouch...
...So they don't mistake them for packing material, I assume.
21240. robertjayb - 10/8/2001 4:40:41 AM
Another anthrax case?
BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) - Anthrax has been detected in a co-worker of a man who died after contracting a rare inhaled form of the disease and tests at the building where both worked have found evidence of the bacterium, authorities said.
A nasal swab from the man, whose name was not immediately made public, tested positive for the anthrax bacterium, Tim O'Conner, regional spokesman for the Florida Department of Health, said Monday.
It was not yet clear if anthrax had spread to his lungs or if he had a full-blown case of the disease. The man was in stable condition at an unidentified hospital, according to both the Florida and North Carolina health departments.
21241. judithathome - 10/8/2001 10:52:58 AM
This is scary...I wonder what the incubation time for anthrax is after the initial exposure?
21242. robertjayb - 10/8/2001 12:42:48 PM
Honk if you're horny...
BERLIN (Reuters) - The German city of Cologne has set up drive-in brothels in a bid to move the red light district away from near its landmark cathedral, authorities said.
The complex is located on the outskirts of the city and includes an ``approach zone'' where clients drive their cars past prostitutes to select them.
When they have made their choice, the prostitute is driven into one of the covered parking spaces adjoining a bedroom with a shower.
``The old red light district was more or less uncontrolled,'' a city spokesman said, adding that it had become a blight on the cathedral area with passers-by sometimes mistaken for prostitutes.
21243. judithathome - 10/8/2001 12:45:42 PM
They are taking a page from Hollands book...those drive up brothels are all the rage there.
21244. judithathome - 10/8/2001 2:09:43 PM
Okay, this is almost funny. Not really but all the people who have been working at or have visited the building of American Media, Inc. are having to be tested and treated with antibiotics for possible anthrax exposure. This building is where all the tabloid newspapers originate...the Sun, the Globe, the Enquirer.
The anthrax patient who died this weekend was employed there...
The reason I think it's almost funny is because these newspapers are so often filled with stories written to inflame or scare the public. Now theye've found anthrax in their building...you reap what you sow?
21245. robertjayb - 10/8/2001 4:27:10 PM
More about HDRs...
...The yellow plastic packets are about the size and weight of a hardcover book, and are designed to flutter to the ground rather than drop straight down to minimize the possibility that they could hit and injure someone. They have a picture of a person eating from a pouch, a stencil of an American flag, and this greeting in English: "This food is a gift from the United States of America, G. W. Bush, Prop."
21246. Indiana Jones - 10/9/2001 10:40:07 AM
The Supreme Court has refused Microsoft's appeal.
21247. theDiva - 10/9/2001 10:56:26 AM
well, inflaming and scaring is one thing, killing someone off is another.
21248. judithathome - 10/9/2001 11:21:06 AM
I agree, Diva, and I was being far too flippant about that story which seems to have developed into a very serious thing.
I'm now wondering if somehow a terrorist might have thought they could spread anthrax throughtout the country on the copies of those tabloids? Never mind that the actual papers are printed elsewhere; you just don't know what goes on in their minds...
21249. theDiva - 10/9/2001 11:25:06 AM
It occurred to me that the Sun was the target because the parent company name is American Media. Then I thought, nah, they can't be that stupid.
21250. judithathome - 10/9/2001 11:40:16 AM
Well, I think perhaps they can be but when you consider ALL the tabloids come from that same building, it could be they were pretty smart...those rags are everywhere, not like a local paper which only goes in the area.
21251. theDiva - 10/9/2001 11:41:41 AM
It's just scary.
21252. judithathome - 10/9/2001 11:48:19 AM
I'm wondering how scared ChristiP is right now...Orlando is very close to Boca Raton or at least it looks so on the map...
21253. theDiva - 10/9/2001 11:57:23 AM
It's at least a four hour drive. My former mother-in-law lives in Boca, and we'd made the drive from Disney to her place a few times when Gracie was a baby.
21254. judithathome - 10/9/2001 12:25:36 PM
Ha...maps can be deceiving, can't they?
21255. thoughtful - 10/9/2001 3:01:54 PM
ah...er...re the HDRs
a stencil of an American flag and the greeting in English, ``This food is a gift from the United States of America.''
...not only can't 70% of Afghans read, they certainly don't read English.
21256. Ms. No - 10/9/2001 5:57:27 PM
Juditha,
It depends on the manner of infection. Cutaneous Anthrax will cause a sore at the site of infection within 1 to 2 days. The symptoms from inhaled Antrax take about a week although I saw something earlier today that said it can be as long as 30 days for symptoms to manifest.
21257. judithathome - 10/9/2001 5:59:05 PM
as long as 30 days for symptoms to manifest
Good lord......
21258. cmboyce - 10/9/2001 11:49:41 PM
An unintended consequence might be an improvement in the collective American mind.
21259. cmboyce - 10/9/2001 11:51:12 PM
Good Lord! Sorry... that was in response to someone's idea about poisoned tabloids, qhite a ways back (unbeknownst to me at the time).
21260. cmboyce - 10/9/2001 11:53:49 PM
Juditha, today's NYT says 6-12 days; I think, then, that it may have been sent to that office (I'm guessing USMail) after 9/11, by a copycat sicko.
21261. robertjayb - 10/10/2001 4:02:10 AM
Out of respect to Mr. Holder, we're dumping him on the porch...
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. -- A man's corpse was left on his front porch after a funeral home wasn't paid for his cremation.
The man's girlfriend, Nancy King, says she returned to the home after picking up a gallon of milk Friday to find a white bag containing the body of 74-year-old Robert L. Holder, who had died the previous week.
She said Hathaway Peterman Funeral Home returned the body to the house she and Holder shared in the central Missouri town of Cross Timbers.
"I'm just devastated," King said Monday. "As soon as I pulled up to the house, I knew what they'd done. He was there, lying on my front porch. ... I could see his blue nightgown through the bag."
Funeral director Gary Peterman of Hathaway Peterman declined Monday to discuss King's allegation.
"I think out of respect to Mr. Holder, let's just let this issue drop," he said.
21262. Frankster - 10/10/2001 4:19:18 AM
Bobby,
( No more Border CD shopping for me this evening )
I'm still mired in this self-imposed "funk" over the tragic events of September 11th, so I'm still finding it difficult to get back to my old routines --including that of enjoying a good laugh on occasion without feeling some sort of guilt, but posts 21237 and 21261 really made me laugh out loud this morning. Post 21237 in particular. What were they thinking ? LOL!
...I should visit this thread more often.
Thanks :-)
21263. thoughtful - 10/10/2001 8:48:43 AM
Someone want to tell me about this anthrax thing....creating and spreading a lethal disease is not an act of terror...just a criminal act?
21264. judithathome - 10/10/2001 9:25:47 AM
Cross Timbers is a very small town...one stop sign, not even a light...about two towns over from where my parents were born...a small town, county seat...two stop lights!
21265. thoughtful - 10/10/2001 10:11:34 AM
...and one dead body on the porch. I've heard of people with tires and old bicycles and crates out front, but granddad on the front porch is a new twist...sort of a pere-skin rug, eh?
(Forgive me, I couldn't help it.)
21266. judithathome - 10/10/2001 10:14:11 AM
:-)
21267. judithathome - 10/10/2001 1:07:14 PM
This might be the best thing to come from the anthrax scare....
People Afraid to Read Tabloids
21268. don s. - 10/10/2001 1:32:31 PM
An unintended consequence might be an improvement in the collective American mind. ...
"People are afraid to pick up [the titles]," said a top industry executive who had been in touch with American Media CEO David Pecker today. ...
Given the types who read these rags, the terrorists might be doing us a favor. Is there any way to infect drudgereport.com?
On the other hand, I occasionally pick up the Weekly World News. The most recent issue I purchased featured a cover story about Hillary Clinton's illicit romantic rendezvous with a space alien on the observation deck of the Empire State Building, replete with a photo of the alien wrapping his foot-long tongue around the senator's neck.
Huhuh huh huhuh huhuh huhuh "pecker" huh huhuh huhuuh
21269. Jenerator - 10/10/2001 2:16:26 PM
I love the Weekly World News. I check on all of the Biblical prophecies printed.
Also, I read the Enquirer for the fashion photos and tips. Where else do you think I get my chicness from?
21270. Absensia - 10/10/2001 2:18:10 PM
Sooooo, that's where you get your sense of style. Ah, hah!
21271. Jenerator - 10/10/2001 2:20:49 PM
Well, I get my *evening* style from there. Right now I'm into L'il Kim.
21272. Absensia - 10/10/2001 2:26:44 PM
Well, I always knew you cheated. My sense of style is *natural*.
21273. robertjayb - 10/10/2001 5:07:21 PM
CNN says a Delta 757 enroute from Atlanta to LA has been diverted to Shreveport with an F-16 escort after a disturbance on board.
21274. janjon - 10/10/2001 5:09:40 PM
Ending up in Shreveport when you were planning on LA is a real bummer.
21275. janjon - 10/10/2001 5:10:24 PM
And, this kind of stuff is going to do wonders, just wonders, in terms of getting people up and flying again.
21276. robertjayb - 10/10/2001 7:54:11 PM
Whew! It's sure hot in here...
CHICAGO, Oct 10 (Reuters) -Three Saudi men removed from a United Airlines (NYSE:UAL - news) flight after they mistakenly tried to open an exit window to get air circulating during the boarding process were only confused passengers, the FBI said on Wednesday.
``They didn't understand English, didn't read English. They were trying to get some air circulating in the airplane,'' FBI spokeswoman Virginia Wright said of Tuesday night's incident.
The three were questioned by the FBI and police and later released, she said.
Two brothers were escorting their ill father to St. Louis for a liver transplant and had just boarded United Flight 729, a Boeing 727, at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport when one of the brothers attempted to open an exit window over a wing.
21277. robertjayb - 10/10/2001 8:56:20 PM
Now where is that damn dog?
MERCED, Calif. — Police responded to a call to find a 200-pound cold-blooded killer hiding at the scene — a Burmese python who'd eaten the man's other pet, a 30-pound pit bull.
Jerry Brown summoned authorities Friday after coming home from work, originally fearing someone had broken into his home and stolen his beloved pets.
"He said he'd looked all over the area and couldn't find them," said Sgt. Norm Andraddi of the Merced Police Department.
When two officers arrived on the scene, they searched around the home and found the 18-foot snake curled up underneath Brown's house.
They quickly noticed it had a large bulge in its midsection.
-------------
Personally, though I'm very much a dog person, the idea of a snake eating pit bulls doesn't bother me all that much.
21278. theDiva - 10/11/2001 8:39:20 AM
now that is funny as hell.
21279. thoughtful - 10/11/2001 9:41:41 AM
#21277 sounds an awful lot like a "Far Side" cartoon.
21280. PelleNilsson - 10/11/2001 12:48:32 PM
A news itm almost lost in the Afghanistan avalanche:
The Russian submarine Kursk has been brought to the surface and towed to port. Not all of it though - the bow section was sawed off before the lift.
21281. arkymalarky - 10/11/2001 6:00:59 PM
It is like a Far Side cartoon I really like, showing the inside of a pet shop with a big glass aquarium that has a huge hole broken in it, a python on the floor with a very large bulge, and a parrot in a cage saying "Hello....Help! Get it off of me!" over and over.
21282. arkymalarky - 10/11/2001 6:02:24 PM
They were just showing news items on CNN that have been lost in the US media in the 9/11 attacks and aftermath.
21283. robertjayb - 10/11/2001 8:03:08 PM
May the Force Be with You...
LONDON (Reuters) -Thousands of Britons devoted to the ''Star Wars'' films have claimed the fictional faith Jedi as their religion and forced it onto the next national census, newspapers reported on Thursday.
An e-mail campaign convinced more than 10,000 fans of the enduring science-fiction films to list Jedi --known by the mantra ``May the Force be with you'' -- as their religion on Britain's 2001 census, the Daily Express reported.
It was enough for the Office for National Statistics (ONS) to give Jedi its own code, meaning it will appear in the 2002 census.
21284. robertjayb - 10/11/2001 8:06:41 PM
'Wonderbum' Technology for a More Pert Bottom...
LONDON (Reuters) - First came the Wonderbra. Now comes the Wonderbum -- a new product that ``lifts, separates and shapes'' the parts other tights don't reach.
The product promises ``a perfectly peachy, pert bottom,'' according to makers DuPont Lycra, which unveiled the uplifting new ``technology'' at a hosiery show Wednesday.
``Let's face it, this is what women everywhere want,'' said a company spokeswoman. ``Women would no longer need to turn to the surgeon's knife to achieve that pert look.''
The only snag?
There are currently only two pairs in existence -- DuPont says the wobbly majority must wait until the end of 2002 before Wonderbum hits the stores.
21285. robertjayb - 10/12/2001 2:33:16 PM
Gun foe shot to death...
SEATTLE (AP) - A federal prosecutor who headed a prominent gun control group in his spare time was shot in his home and died early Friday.
Thomas C. Wales, 49, died about 1:15 a.m. Friday at Harborview Medical Center. He had been shot in the neck and the side late Thursday, a hospital spokeswoman said.
Details about the shooting were sketchy. No arrests had been made, police spokesman Mark Jamieson said.
Wales was a member of the fraud unit in the U.S. attorney's office here, specializing in prosecution of banking and business crime, spokesman Lawrence Lincoln said.
He also was board president of Seattle-based Washington Ceasefire, a gun-control group.
21286. robertjayb - 10/12/2001 6:57:04 PM
Anthrax Bemoans 'Not So Cool' Name
MIAMI (Reuters) -Thrash metal rock band Anthrax admit their name is ``not so cool'' in light of the outbreak of the disease in Florida but said they do not want to change it.
The band, whose multi-selling albums include ``Spreading the Disease'' and ``The Threat is Real,'' said that when they chose the name 20 year ago it sounded ``cool, aggressive and nobody knew what it was.''
21287. judithathome - 10/12/2001 6:58:33 PM
nobody knew what it was.''
At least, this was true of the people who make up the band...
21288. amax - 10/12/2001 7:01:18 PM
Pic of the 'wonderbum':
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/011010/80/c8iff.html
21289. amax - 10/12/2001 7:05:08 PM
Mmmm. I predict they will be in much demand amongst the fetish set.
21290. robertjayb - 10/16/2001 1:54:48 PM
Bad to the last drop---Man Murders Wife Over 'Disgusting Coffee'
ROME (Reuters) - An Italian man said Monday he had killed his 72-year-old wife after she made him a bad cup of coffee, Italian news agency ANSA reported.
``The coffee was disgusting. I drank a little then I picked up the cup and smashed it on the floor,'' the 84-year-old told prosecutors in Bari, on Italy's southern heel, the agency said.
A neighbor discovered the wife's body Sunday afternoon and alerted the police. The man was arrested on suspicion of murder.
The man later confessed he had hidden the murder weapon -- a hammer -- and blood-sodden clothes he had worn when he killed her, ANSA said.
21291. PsychProf - 10/16/2001 1:59:23 PM
Robert...did you get my e-mail?
21292. robertjayb - 10/16/2001 7:10:46 PM
PsychProf,
I have now and I'll respond later. Thanks.
21293. Jenerator - 10/16/2001 7:33:08 PM
He killed her with a hammer. Disgusting.
21294. robertjayb - 10/16/2001 10:38:27 PM
In Britain the power business is going to ....
LONDON --Britain's first dung-fired power station is set to begin operation by early next year, producing not only electricity but also hot water and liquid manure.
The plant is part of a renewable energy project in Devon County, southwest England. It will generate up to 2 megawatts of electricity from gas given off by liquid waste collected from area farms, plant director Charles Clarke said Tuesday.
The plant can handle up to 450 tons of slurry a day, reducing the problem of storage, said Clarke, a director of operating company Holsworthy Biogas.
The complex, expected to be in operation by January, which will also handle some food waste.
21295. aunaturel - 10/17/2001 6:37:54 PM
"He killed her with a hammer. Disgusting"
Reminds me of what happened to that math prof. I think it was at UC Berkely.
21296. robertjayb - 10/17/2001 8:52:09 PM
Fat Fowl Fleet Fliers...
(AP)---As skies fill with millions of migrating birds, European scientists say the seasonal miracle appears to hinge on a seeming contradiction: The fatter the bird, the more efficiently it flies.
The results of their study -- involving four birds that were captured as adults and trained to fly in a wind tunnel -- contradict a central theory of aerodynamics, which predicts that the power needed to fly increases sharply with load.
For birds, apparently, the cost of flying with heavy fuel loads is considerably smaller than previously thought.
"We have measured, for the first time, how flight power changes with body mass in a bird and the results were very surprising," said Anders Kvist of Sweden's Lund University, the lead author of the study in the latest issue of the journal Nature.
21297. robertjayb - 10/17/2001 11:26:22 PM
Okay, but first do the shirts...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A leading bioterror expert said on Tuesday people who feel panicky about opening their mail amid the anthrax scare can use a hot steam iron and a moist layer of fabric to kill germs.
Ken Alibek, a top former Soviet germ warfare scientist who is now a U.S.-based author and researcher trying to develop defenses against bioterror, told a surprised congressional briefing on nonproliferation that a hot, moist steam iron and moist fabric could kill anthrax spores.
Pressed by surprised lawmakers who were not sure if they had heard him right, he repeated that several times.
``Iron your letters,'' he said, adding that a microwave oven was not as good as an iron and that including moisture was essential because spores could survive dry heat.
21298. robertjayb - 10/18/2001 3:44:35 AM
Grayhound Grab Foiled...
SALT LAKE CITY -- A man tried to overpower a Greyhound bus driver in Utah late Wednesday, but gave up the supposed hijacking attempt and fled in a different vehicle, the state Highway Patrol said.
The man apparently tried to overtake the driver after ranting about hijackings, said Doug McCleve, patrol spokesman. Bus driver Gene Savage told KUTV television that the man grabbed the steering wheel and said he was going to flip the bus.
The driver said he kicked the man away and was able to stop the bus. The estimated 40 passengers got out unharmed, McCleve said.
21299. robertjayb - 10/18/2001 4:56:00 PM
Brit survives anthrax in 1981...(Guardian)
...I awoke feeling as though I had a bad dose of 'flu, and with my arm swollen to twice its normal size. There was also what seemed to be a bottomless hole in my wrist where the bite had been. The odd thing was that the hole, although about two or three centimetres across, with raw edges and a black, necrotic base, was completely painless. The medic was more impressed this time and although he had never seen a case of cutaneous anthrax before, was swift with the diagnosis.
21300. glendajean - 10/18/2001 5:49:24 PM
According to the Washington Post site, the Today Show's Katie Couric's sister died today. She was co-chair of the Virginia Democratic Party and a State Senator.
She had cancer.
21301. janjon - 10/19/2001 4:32:57 PM
in honor of robtj, who somehow missed this little gem:
Moral of the Story, I Guess, is Don't Name Your Spouse As Your Executor
briefly, this is the tale involving a man who was convicted of bludgeoning his wife to death but who nevertheless had been appointed executor of her will several weeks before being indicted. So, even though under Mass. law he was disinherited (he'd been named to get it all), he nevertheless has control over the deceased wife's assets AND will be entitled to an Executor's fee.
Odd little loophole in that law.
Even more odd is the fact that he just sold his wife's house to the BOYFRIEND of one of his daughters for $1, and in a context in which the boyfriend and daughter aren't getting along.
All three kids support their dad, incidentally.
Oh well, I always did think that Massachusetts drivers are the world's worst......
21302. robertjayb - 10/21/2001 8:06:29 PM
I'll get you for this, Chinee boy.
21303. rubberducky - 10/22/2001 11:30:04 AM
from the unmitigated stupidity file:
The small home where Elian Gonzalez lived while at the center of an international custody battle opened Sunday as a shrine to honor him.it's that last paragraph that is the coup de grâce for me
Elian's wooden swing set and a picture of his mother, Elisabeth Brotons, who died while trying to bring him to the United States, greeted nearly 500 people who passed through the front door of Unidos en Casa Elian, or United in Elian House.
...
The home includes four bicycles and the red, yellow and purple pedal car Elian rode around the front yard. His black and blue inline roller-skates, a purple stuffed Barney the Dinosaur and red and yellow plastic trucks and planes lined shelves in the living room.
Providing a backdrop for the toys were hundreds of photos, some of the boy playing on his swing set, swimming in a wading pool and smiling from underneath a festive hat.
One poster bore photos of a contemplative Elian and called him "The Miracle Child." It read "A mischievous, charming soul that will never be just like any other boy."
...
In Elian's bedroom, Spiderman pajamas laid on his race-car shaped bed, topped by a black-and-white checkered comforter.
The back room that authorities took Elian from included an Associated Press photograph of Elian and the fisherman who rescued him being confronted by an armed federal agent.
...
Delfin Gonzalez bought the home November 2000 and converted it into a shrine, free to the public.
...
"To us, this day was almost equivalent to the Twin Towers day," said Deyanira Solis, referring to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. "My heart has been bleeding ever since for that little boy."
21304. greystoke - 10/22/2001 11:53:27 AM
rubberducky,
Yes, Deyanira sounds like a real moron.
The only thing missing from the article was the sighting of a cloud overhead with the image of the Virgin Mary just as the shrine opened. That would be another typical delusion from Cuban-Americans.
21305. robertjayb - 10/24/2001 12:36:48 AM
Wanna buy a kidney?
(AFP)--"One kidney for sale to patients with kidney-related illnesses for reasonable price" reads one of dozens of similar small notices on the wall of an alley in central Tehran, followed by a telephone number.
21306. Absensia - 10/24/2001 12:43:25 AM
Grey, the one big thing missing was the cost of admission for the shrine tour!
21307. rubberducky - 10/24/2001 10:30:14 AM
here's hoping the psycho finally gets his
MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- As testimony in O.J. Simpson's road-rage trial wrapped up, the prosecutor said the former football star has a story ready "every time he's stuck with something."
Prosecutor Abbe Rifkin made the remark Tuesday after Simpson said allegations that he reached inside a driver's car, grabbed his glasses and scratched his face were blown out of proportion.
The jury began hearing closing arguments Wednesday morning.
Simpson faces up to 16 years in prison if convicted of auto burglary and battery in the driving spat with Jeffrey Pattinson last year in their suburban Miami neighborhood.
Prosecutors say Simpson, 54, ran a stop sign, then pulled over to argue with Pattinson after the other driver flagged him down.
Simpson denied reaching into the car and said the men confronted each other outside their cars after Pattinson got him to pull over by flashing his lights and "sitting on his horn."
He said Pattinson lied about staying in his car, which led Rifkin to ask whether Simpson would ever lie, "especially if your life depended on it."
Simpson responded, "I've never been put in that position to have to lie with my life on the line."
...
Simpson offered no explanation for the scratch but explained his thumbprint on the glasses by saying it must have happened when he brushed them away as he broke off their 30-second, profanity-laced confrontation.
After Tuesday's session, Rifkin said Simpson "came up with a new story today, and I think that he comes up with a new story every time he's stuck with something."
21308. robertjayb - 10/24/2001 5:45:44 PM
Still elusive, O.J. walks...
MIAMI (AP) -- O.J. Simpson was acquitted Wednesday of grabbing another driver's glasses and scratching the man's face during a bout of road rage after insisting that the other man started it.
After the verdict, Simpson put his hand to his chest and mouthed ``thank you'' as he nodded toward the jury. He then hugged his lawyers and told the wife of lead attorney Yale Galanter, ``Your husband did great.''
The 54-year-old Simpson faced up to 16 years in jail had he been convicted of auto burglary and battery for last year's dispute with Jeffrey Pattinson in their suburban Miami neighborhood. The jury deliberated for about 90 minutes.
21309. judithathome - 10/24/2001 5:50:46 PM
Rats....
21310. don s. - 10/24/2001 5:57:34 PM
He then hugged his lawyers and told the wife of lead attorney Yale Galanter, ``Your husband did great.''
Whereupon Mrs. Galanter immediately petitioned for a restraining order …
21311. robertjayb - 10/24/2001 9:44:27 PM
He asked for milk, you see...
LUSAKA (Reuters) - A Zambian man divorced his wife after he found a frog in a cup of tea she gave him, a Lusaka newspaper reported Tuesday.
The Post reported that 28-year-old Andrew Nyoka had left 26-year-old Catherine Nyoka last year for another woman.
``One time I found a frog in a cup of tea she had served me. That is the reason I went for another woman,'' the independent newspaper quoted Nyoka, whose surname means ``snake'' in English, as telling a community court.
Judges Chidongo Shawa and Wilson Makuwerere granted him a divorce, saying it was clear the couple's marriage could not be saved.
21312. robertjayb - 10/24/2001 10:01:20 PM
Well, she got their attention...
PHILADELPHIA -- Tired of the red tape involved in proving her son dead, a woman sent a baggie containing some of his ashes to the company processing his student loans.
The baggie and accompanying letter arrived at Sallie Mae's office in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., on Oct. 12 as concern was growing about anthrax-tainted letters.
"We treated it as it was an anthrax scare. It was a gray powdery substance," said company vice president Joseph Bailey.
21313. OhioSTOPAS - 10/25/2001 9:18:16 AM
Would that be forwarded to the dead letter office?
21314. OhioSTOPAS - 10/25/2001 9:18:43 AM
(Oh, gimme a break. SOMEONE had to say it.)
21315. CalGal - 10/25/2001 11:43:51 AM
Hyuk.
It's funny, last night I randomly picked an Agatha Christie novel to reread, one I probably hadn't read in 20 years. It was Cards on the Table, which I consider one of her ten best, written in the 30s.
In it, one of the characters was born in "Quetta, India". Another character was returning immediately to India to handle the Baluchistan situation.
I realized how distracting knowledge is. The first 80 times I'd read the book, I wouldn't have had to stop and remember that Pakistan wasn't on the event horizon for another ten years.
Then one of the murderers uses anthrax to kill a jealous husband.
Random. I swear it was a random pick.
21316. robertjayb - 10/25/2001 3:08:36 PM
WW One anthrax plot against horses, reindeer...
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swedish spy helped sow the seeds of today's anthrax bio-warfare scare as long ago as World War One when he plotted to poison reindeer and horses with anthrax-laced sugar cubes.
In mid-winter 1917, Germany sent Baron Otto Karl von Rosen, a mercenary from neutral Sweden, on a mission to sabotage British Arctic supply lines to its ally Russia, a crime historian told Reuters Wednesday.
Norwegian police arrested von Rosen with 19 sugar cubes containing tiny glass vials of anthrax -- the same lethal germ that has killed three people in the United States this month after being sent through the mail to officials and journalists.
21317. joezan - 10/25/2001 4:50:45 PM
Australian boxer Anthony Mundine says his comments about the USA deserving what it got were, ahem, "taken out of context".
Mundine apologized for the statements in "an open letter to the world" published on his Web site.
He said the comments "have been taken out of context by the Australian media" and apologized "to any person who may have been offended."
"I condemn killings on any side and all acts of terrorism. I am against any form or any shape of violence or killing," he said, adding that "my heart and soul goes out to those families who lost loved ones" in New York.
"What has been reported is not the real me," he said.
Mundine, 26, was a professional rugby player in Australia before switching to boxing. He has a record of 10-0, with eight knockouts. Only one of his bouts took place outside Australia.
"I am against any form or any shape of violence or killing," he said..."
...Mundine, 26, was a professional rugby player in Australia before switching to boxing. He has a record of 10-0, with eight knockouts. Only one of his bouts took place outside Australia.
Is it just me?
21318. rubberducky - 10/29/2001 1:01:33 PM
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Web magazine Slate.com and the Internet site of the British Broadcasting Corp. took top honors in the second annual Online Journalism Awards, selected from among 870 entries from 15 countries.
The awards, announced on Friday, also featured Indian Web site Rediff.com for its coverage of the Gujarat earthquake in January, and Salon.com for a series of reports on Clear Channel Communications, a powerful force in the radio industry.
...
``The showcase of journalism excellence created by the contest proves that reports of the death of Internet journalism have been greatly exaggerated,'' he said in a statement.
Slate.com, published by technology giant Microsoft Corp., won the award for general excellence in online journalism by an independent site. The BBC site was given the same award for affiliated Web sites.
21319. rubberducky - 10/29/2001 1:03:55 PM
Salon's run of articles on Clear Channel were very good, btw. worth checking out.
21320. PelleNilsson - 10/29/2001 1:32:06 PM
Why does Sweden have to be blamed for everything? We who are so intrinsically goooood.
21321. robertjayb - 10/31/2001 1:32:20 PM
But was he charged for a sauna? (or is that just the Finns?)
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swedish man got dragged into the swirling brushes of a giant car wash and came out with four broken ribs, a Swedish daily reported on Tuesday.
The 60-year-old man was using a high-pressure hose to clean his bus when the hose accidentally hit a sensor and activated the brushes, which trapped it.
As the man fought to free the hose, his foot got stuck and he was pulled in and pinned against one of the machine's rotating bristles, Dagens Nyheter reported.
It said a court awarded 6,000 crowns ($570) compensation to the man who was rescued after someone heard his screams and pushed the machine's emergency stop button.
21322. robertjayb - 10/31/2001 7:00:37 PM
Druid Alert! Blue Moon Tonight...
21323. Absensia - 10/31/2001 7:49:26 PM
Thanks Robertjayb, that is a cool article.
21324. robertjayb - 10/31/2001 11:27:02 PM
A November hurricane---Whadehay?
MIAMI (AP) -- A storm system dumping heavy rain over Nicaragua and Honduras strengthened into a tropical storm Wednesday, amid forecasts that it could become a hurricane and threaten the United States.
The storm, named Michelle, could become a hurricane with winds exceeding 74 mph by the weekend, forecasters said.
At 6 p.m. EST Wednesday, Michelle's center had moved into the Caribbean just off the border between Nicaragua and Honduras. It was drifting north at 4 mph.
The storm has caused significant flooding in Honduras, killing three people and forcing the evacuation of 25,000. Seven people were missing.
Some computerized forecasts show the storm striking the United States, perhaps by this weekend, but others show it turning west and striking Mexico, said Jack Beven, a hurricane specialist at the National Hurricane Center in Miami.
21325. joezan - 11/1/2001 7:46:46 AM
Anyone heard/read about the anthrax scare st the prosecutor's office in Cook County (Ill)?
I heard it on a Chicago radio station yesterday a.m., but not a word since.
Last week, an asst. prosecutor found a letter in his inbox from a guy he was prosecuting, and when he opened it discovered it contained a white powdery substance.
He had it checked, natch, and it turned out to be powdered sugar.
It also turned out to have been left by one of his buddies, another asst. prosecutor in the office.
The guy has resigned, and now faces 15 years in prison.
Brilliant.
21326. theDiva - 11/1/2001 8:38:58 AM
what a dumbass.
21327. robertjayb - 11/1/2001 11:19:03 PM
Don't Spook the Moose...
ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Two children trick-or-treating with their father Wednesday evening were run over by a bull moose the family may have spooked.
The children, 9-year-old Lydia Forbes and her 6-year-old brother, Taylor, were not seriously hurt, said their mother, Christine Forbes.
"He had a bloody nose, and she has a bruise on her back," Forbes said. "My husband was with them and just about got it too."
21328. janjon - 11/2/2001 3:52:11 PM
I'll remember that advice, robtj, the next time I venture forth to Central Park.
Actually, the Times reported today that a deer was killed on on a City street yesterday. Granted, up in Washington Heights which, while not as far north as the City goes, certainly not Manhattan. This a coyote a couple of years ago - what is this place becoming.
21329. theDiva - 11/2/2001 3:54:41 PM
Washington Heights near the Cloisters, or near 181st St?
21330. janjon - 11/2/2001 4:10:03 PM
beats me. The article said on a street near the Henry Hudson Parkway, which I believe would make near the Cloisters correct.
Say - what is wrong with you. I tried to bait you about your bernie (deservedly so) and you didn't rise.
21331. theDiva - 11/2/2001 4:14:02 PM
my dear, you are positively transparent. I have six younger brothers. Failing to rise to the bait is a lifelong habit.
21332. janjon - 11/2/2001 4:38:32 PM
yeah, well, bernie has been a real pistol lately.
21333. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 4:57:13 PM
Stupid is as stupid does...
CLEVELAND --AP== A man fractured his infant son's skull with his hands in an attempt to shape the boy's head to look more like his own, authorities say.
Joshua Brissett, 19, was arrested Oct. 12 and pleaded innocent to assault on the boy, 5-month-old Roosevelt Worsham.
The baby's mother, Shiara Worsham, was charged with child endangering. Prosecutors said she saw Brissett trying to shape the infant's head and waited three days to take him to the hospital last month after he began vomiting and refusing to eat.
The boy is recovering and is being cared for by relatives.
"A lot of babies are born looking funny," said Dr. Alan Cohen, chief of pediatric neurosurgery at Rainbow Babies & Children's Hospital. "Infants' skulls are very thin and their brain is immature. Trying to shape the skull could injure the infant, cause fractures or innercranial bleeding."
21334. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 5:45:39 PM
The neighbors' child, a preemie born in June, was really an odd-looking kid. His dad called him The Conehead. He is now a fine, husky fellow who scurries about merrily and stands when he wants (anchored by their patient Springer Spaniel).
21335. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 5:52:04 PM
No, No. Please send me into combat instead!
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Las Vegas lounge singer Wayne Newton joined President Bush at the White House Friday to launch this year's USO holiday tour -- a spirit-lifting deployment of entertainers for American troops, ``some of whom will be facing extreme danger in the months ahead,'' Bush said.
Newton, teen pop starlet Jessica Simpson, country singer Neal McCoy and comedian Rob Schneider leave Nov. 12 for a weeklong Thanksgiving tour of overseas posts, some of which house troops involved in the U.S. bombing of terrorist targets in Afghanistan. The entertainers will perform in Budapest and Kosovo, and also on an aircraft carrier that United Service Organization officials would not identify, citing security concerns.
21336. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 5:54:03 PM
Better yet---drop Wayne Newton on the Taliban.
21337. joezan - 11/2/2001 6:02:07 PM
Both our daughters were gruesome, hairy things at birth - the older one worse. We didn't even take pictures of them till they were around 2 months old.
They both had black fur around the ridges of their ears, Eddie Munster sideburns and widow's peaks, and hair running down their backs to their shoulder blades.
With the first one, I was actually stunned into dumbfounded silence after they'd washed her off, thinking we'd birthed some sort of throwback. I swear - I checked for a vestigial tail at the tip of her spine.
Within weeks, though, she had lost her hair - all of it -including her one big hairy eyebrow, which actually connected to her hairline at the temple. It took a few months to all come back in - a beautiful sandy brown, thick head of hair which has gradually darkened since.
I must admit, I considered many times shaving it all off, so I kinda sympathize wiith that guy.
21338. arkymalarky - 11/2/2001 6:19:01 PM
Joe, I must say you have the ability to stun me with purely innocent posts more than just about anybody else on this forum. I don't know if you should take that as a compliment or not.
21339. joezan - 11/2/2001 6:31:40 PM
Well, I was only kidding about sympathizing with the guy.
21340. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 6:43:57 PM
21341. robertjayb - 11/3/2001 1:36:02 AM 21342. robertjayb - 11/3/2001 1:37:22 AM Yipe? 21343. robertjayb - 11/3/2001 6:26:59 PM Michelle is a Category 4 storm last reported moving at 3 m.p.h. 21344. ronski - 11/3/2001 6:29:43 PM It's also been an unusual storm, one of the very few huricanes to have more or less begun on land. 21345. robertjayb - 11/5/2001 5:17:51 PM Spy Cats in the CIA?...(BBC) 21346. joezan - 11/5/2001 10:54:24 PM There is right now a gorgeous display of Northern Lights here - I've never seen them except for a few years ago, but that time they were barely visible, and white. 21347. AuNaturel - 11/5/2001 11:50:19 PM The closer to the magnetic poles you get the better they tend to be. 21348. AuNaturel - 11/5/2001 11:51:23 PM Robjay: 21349. robertjayb - 11/6/2001 12:20:06 AM Well, it seems there is now a storm named Noel way northeast of the remains of Michelle. How the name Noel shows up in the above link is a total mystery to me, but the info comes from Newsday's weather page: 21350. robertjayb - 11/6/2001 2:10:34 PM Regarding joezan's aurora borealis sighting: 21351. robertjayb - 11/6/2001 2:20:52 PM Hurricane Michelle: 21352. thoughtful - 11/6/2001 2:28:09 PM Dang! I've always wanted to see the northern lights and never have. Looks like I missed an opportunity last night. Shoot! If only they made some noise so I'd know to go outside and look. 21353. Property of Jesus - 11/6/2001 2:37:42 PM The Fed cuts rates .500 to 2 percent, and says it's prepared to go even lower to get the economy back on track. 21354. PelleNilsson - 11/6/2001 2:55:04 PM thoughtful 21355. thoughtful - 11/6/2001 3:54:51 PM Pelle, I'll have to listen closely, but it might just be my husband in the bathroom. 21356. joezan - 11/6/2001 6:16:46 PM thoughtful: 21357. arkymalarky - 11/6/2001 6:29:04 PM Cool. It sort of freaked out some of my students to see the red-orange sky last night. I didn't see it, but I'll be on the lookout tonight. 21358. joezan - 11/6/2001 6:58:43 PM It was blue and green (mostly) up here. At first, it looked like thick, blue-tinted contrails streaking across the entire sky, and fairly static. 21359. Absensia - 11/6/2001 7:12:43 PM Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh....it sounds so beautiful. Wonderful description, Joe. I hope I can see them here, but it has been overcast and cloudy, as usual. 21360. Absensia - 11/6/2001 11:16:42 PM Went out and looked. All I saw were clouds and clouds and clouds. Can you see them, Joe? 21361. robertjayb - 11/7/2001 3:59:23 AM 21362. robertjayb - 11/7/2001 4:33:30 AM Okay, go here and click on Aurora Gallery> 21363. thoughtful - 11/7/2001 8:50:56 AM Wow! Incredible. One of these days...er rather nights! 21364. Absensia - 11/7/2001 8:58:07 AM Incredible indeed. Thanks, Robertjay. 21365. robertjayb - 11/9/2001 6:04:35 PM Ham-handed defense... 21366. robertjayb - 11/9/2001 6:09:27 PM This is news? 21367. Cellar Door - 11/9/2001 6:11:29 PM 21368. robertjayb - 11/10/2001 12:25:36 AM Definitely not for mealtime reading... 21369. CalGal - 11/10/2001 12:32:16 AM Ewwwwww, ick. 21370. joezan - 11/10/2001 12:51:22 AM I wonder if the kids get to keep the skin? 21371. Cellar Door - 11/10/2001 12:57:59 AM Meryl Streep would be perfect for the movie. 21372. Shannon - 11/10/2001 5:24:35 PM Ken Kesey died. 21373. CalGal - 11/10/2001 5:30:04 PM Yeah, I linked in the Times obit in the Lit section. It was long, clearly they'd been planning on his death for a while. (g) 21374. Shannon - 11/10/2001 6:18:02 PM Heh. I told hubster he died, and he said "I didn't realize he was still alive." 21375. Al D - 11/10/2001 8:54:59 PM Yes Ken Kesey died, and more's the pity. He produced two great novels. When he was at Stanford, the French writer, Jean Genet, who was infatuated with the Black Panthers, was asked to speak to them at a cocktail party At Stanford. The Panthers arrived in black leather jackets and dark glasses, their full military attire. 21376. Cellar Door - 11/10/2001 8:59:14 PM Great story, Al. You were lucky to have met him. 21377. Al D - 11/10/2001 9:06:58 PM Cellar 21378. Absensia - 11/11/2001 8:23:01 AM Child Neglect is only rates manslaughter? 21379. wabbit - 11/12/2001 9:58:17 AM from CNN.com - An American Airlines 767 has crashed in the Queens borough of New York City. The FAA identifies the flight as American flight 587, from JFK to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. 21380. rubberducky - 11/13/2001 9:18:55 AM Voice Recorder Indicates Plane Crash Was Accident 21381. CalGal - 11/13/2001 12:54:41 PM Ducky, 21382. CalGal - 11/13/2001 1:03:31 PM 21383. Ms. No - 11/13/2001 2:03:46 PM What is it with men (and women) who continue to live with people they KNOW are crazy? 21384. glendajean - 11/13/2001 3:25:37 PM A co-worker told me that two people who barely escaped being at the World Trade Center on 11/9 died in the American Airlines crash yesterday. One was a restaurant worker and the other was a guy whose last day at WTC was 9/10. 21385. CalGal - 11/13/2001 3:32:57 PM Oh, no. Please don't let that be true. 21386. Erin R. - 11/13/2001 3:37:53 PM Oh, that's awful! 21387. Cellar Door - 11/13/2001 5:12:27 PM Raciual Profiling at the polls. 21388. CalGal - 11/13/2001 5:14:14 PM I just read that both engines came off before the plane crashed? That seems awfully odd. 21389. judithathome - 11/13/2001 5:20:41 PM I heard yesterday that there was evidence of dumped fuel in the bay but last night saw a crawl saying the Coast Guard didn't find any...seemed odd to me that they could've dumped fuel when they were only in the air for about 2 minutes. Has anyone heard anything about the fuel today? 21390. Ms. No - 11/13/2001 5:26:29 PM Judith, 21391. janjon - 11/13/2001 5:35:44 PM Events like this always seem to give rise to not only confusing/ed but inconsistent "truths" as to what happened. Some nearby insist they heard an explosion; others say not. 21392. Snowowl - 11/13/2001 5:38:00 PM News headlines on the BBC say that a rattling was heard in the cockpit just before the crash. There's no further information at present. 21393. CalGal - 11/13/2001 5:40:17 PM They didn't have sufficient time for a fuel dump; Pataki said they'd dumped it because people saw liquid, or something. 21394. janjon - 11/13/2001 5:48:00 PM I suspect the scenario would go something like this: influx of birds causes one engine to malfunction, even stop, during a period of extreme stress for the plane (less than two minutes from takeoff and thus still at high rpms, etc.), causing severe instability for the plane, resulting at first with severe shaking and, probably, with all efforts in the cabin being to restore balance, etc.), with the stress causing the engine (and then the wing) to fall off. (I understand that the engines are designed to fall off in certain dire circumstances.) 21395. janjon - 11/13/2001 5:49:51 PM Birds being sucked into jet engines have been the cause of crashes in the past. Including in NYC if my memory serves. 21396. CalGal - 11/13/2001 7:25:53 PM Oh, I'm sure it has. It's certainly a risk. But I find it hard to believe that both engines would fall off as a result. It is extremely rare for both to fall off, according to da experts. 21397. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 8:17:48 PM Where was it said both engines fell off? 21398. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 8:18:41 PM Assuming that occured before the plane itself came apart. 21399. CalGal - 11/13/2001 8:24:07 PM The plane wouldn't come apart, it crashed. 21400. joezan - 11/13/2001 10:01:06 PM I heard earlier today that birds in the engines had been definitely ruled out. 21401. Absensia - 11/13/2001 10:04:35 PM It would be great if they did, Joe. But there are so many reports of bad maintenance. And remember, all contracts for all parts go to the lowest bidder. 21402. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:16:26 PM They said this plane's engines had a history of problems and that a month ago some kind of advisory had been issued about them--I guess to airport maintenance crews. 21403. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:17:32 PM I also had heard birds had been ruled out. I also thought that force could cause a plane to come apart under certain conditions, but physics is certainly not my forte. 21404. Absensia - 11/13/2001 10:22:02 PM Has to be something very wrong. For it to crash that soon after takeoff would mean a stall if nothing else was wrong. But the plane and instruments almost rule that out. I guess if the plane vibrated enough the engines would fall off, as would the tail section. Maybe from this explosion people keep talking about. 21405. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:25:03 PM I thought they'd done maintenance just a day or two before. 21406. Snowowl - 11/13/2001 10:29:24 PM This article talks about uncontained engine failures in other planes with the same type of engine. 21407. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:33:34 PM Thanks, Snow. 21408. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:39:19 PM That article put everything in one place that I'd been hearing bits and pieces of, including what I'd heard about accounts of pieces flying off of the plane before it crashed, other than the first engine and tail. 21409. Snowowl - 11/13/2001 10:43:13 PM I'm supposed to be going overseas next month. Believe me, I do not feel like flying at this particular time. I'm not in the least scared of terrorist attacks, but I've always been a nervous flyer and for some reason planes ALWAYS crash just before I'm due to fly. 21410. Absensia - 11/13/2001 11:04:02 PM Arky, I hadn't seen that, but I do wonder what maintenance they did. 21411. joezan - 11/14/2001 1:59:23 AM The plane's maintenance record was reported on Monday. The engines are scheduled for required overhauls every 10,000 hours. One of the engines had flown just 200 hours or so since its last overhaul - the other engine had flown over 9,600 hours since its last overhaul. 21412. janjon - 11/14/2001 10:50:23 AM There are reports that the "box" that records cockpit conversation indicates that the plane underwent severe turbulence. There is much thought that this was somehow caused by the wake of the plane that took off just prior to the AA flight. That plane was a Japan Airlines 747. 21413. concerned - 11/15/2001 12:37:52 AM Re. 21412 - 21414. robertjayb - 11/15/2001 12:46:35 AM Another victim of Texas Tower sniper: 21415. concerned - 11/15/2001 1:08:25 AM I don't think I'll ever board an Airbust jetliner if either the tail section failure turns out to be due to shoddy manufacture or the engines were not properly attached to the wings with shear bolts. 21416. AytchMan - 11/16/2001 4:49:29 PM Three items from the Cybercrime site: 21417. CalGal - 11/16/2001 4:55:22 PM I think the Internet tax ban is a bad idea; the states could use the revenue. 21418. AytchMan - 11/16/2001 5:03:59 PM Internet taxes are inevitable; the question is when. I don't want to see them but there's no good case to be made against. 21419. AytchMan - 11/16/2001 5:14:32 PM As for airport security, an increase is warranted and inevitable. However, I don't foresee any more WTC-type attacks, short of a terrorist platoon armed with heavy weapons occupying an entire airport. Any group of three or four lightly-armed baddies would be unceremoniously beaten to death by enraged passengers before reaching the cockpit door. 21420. CalGal - 11/16/2001 5:15:59 PM Screaming, "Wait! You don't understand! I just want to go to Cuba!" 21421. janjon - 11/16/2001 5:19:02 PM anyone catch the story on the Lehrer Report last night about the airline attendants voluntarily attending self-defense schools? It was rather touching, actually. 21422. AytchMan - 11/16/2001 5:20:47 PM cal-- 21423. CalGal - 11/16/2001 5:24:22 PM Of course, to my mind, we should have always beat the pulp out of hijackers. I have always been suspected that if I were ever on a hijacked plane I would be the first passenger killed by other passengers, outraged at this idiot who actually thought hijackers shouldn't go exactly where they wanted to. 21424. judithathome - 11/16/2001 6:24:11 PM outraged at this idiot who actually thought hijackers shouldn't go exactly where they wanted to. 21425. CalGal - 11/16/2001 6:27:33 PM That's a thought. But it's such an inconvenience to the rest of the passengers. I like the idea of cutting off blood supply with the headset cords. 21426. judithathome - 11/16/2001 6:28:53 PM That'd be fine, too. 21427. robertjayb - 11/16/2001 9:17:29 PM Another bad news letter? 21428. robertjayb - 11/17/2001 12:39:05 AM Wake Turbulence can kill...(Salon)
"It was one of those stupid things. If you go to Las Vegas, you drink, you gamble and you get married, which is what I did, although I regret it now."
"It was one of those stupid things. If you go to Las Vegas, you drink, you gamble and you get married, which is what I did, although I regret it now."
This map identifies the storm's current location and its forecast path for the next three days. The shaded area illustrates the margin of error in the forecast.
The yellow lines running through the shaded area represent time periods. The first yellow line is the storm's estimated position 12 hours from now. The second line represents 24 hours (1 day), the third is 36 hours, the fourth is 48 hours (2 days), and the last line is 72 hours (3 days).
The CIA hoped the cat, rigged up with microphones and an antennae in its tail, could pad around unnoticed and listen in on secret spy conversations.
Having never really experienced them (but having, of course, seen photos and film of them), I can't say for sure, but I don't think they could possibly be any more spectacular anywhere on earth than what I am seeing right now.
Why does the map say "Tropical Storm Noel"?
November 5, 2001, 10 p.m. EST
Noel weakens to a tropical storm over the north Atlantic
Coordinates: 40.4 north, 49.5 west
Location: 465 miles SSE of Cape Race, Newfoundland
Movement: NNE near 12 mph
Windspeed: 70 mph (113 km/hr)
Central pressure: 990 millibars (29.23 inches)
Forecast: A northward motion with an increase in forward speed is expected over the next 24 hours. Noel is expected to pass to the east of Newfoundland on Tuesday. Further weakening is forecast during the next 24 hours.
Next update: November 6, 2001, 4 a.m. EST
--AP--The aurora borealis appeared with rare intensity in skies across the country, treating onlookers as far south as California and Georgia to a shimmering display of red and green lights.
Monday night's display began around 8:50 p.m. EST.
The ghostly streaks, better known as the Northern Lights, are rarely seen south of Canada and Alaska.
The broad blue and green spiked band was tinged with brilliant red areas.
As of 1 p.m. EST
Location: 28.0 N, 67.0 W or 330 miles SSW of Bermuda
Moving: ENE near 25-30 mph
Wind: 75 mph
Pressure: 980
Tropical Storm Noel:
As of 10 a.m. EST
Location: 44.0 N, 48.2 W or 295 miles SE of Cape Race, Newfoundland
Moving: NNE near 21 mph
Wind: 50 mph
Pressure: 996 mb
I'm reliably told that in the north of Sweden the northern lights, when intense, do make a crackling noise. similar to paper being torn.
;-)
I just heard on the radio - they're supposed to be visible again tonight.
Then, slowly, they began to shimmer and grow wider - the shimmering first just at the edges, but then overtaking the entire display. That's when they started changing colors, and wavering out of their former linear pattern.
Later, around midnight, I went out again and it was arcs of shimmering, waving, multi-colored lights, expanding and contracting across almost the entire sky. 
http://www.spaceweather.com/aurora/gallery_06nov01.html
Sorry, I'm unable to make a link work...
btw, the above photo was made near San Diego...
GAINESVILLE, Ga. (AP) -- Three teen-agers trying to rob a food shop were scared off when the owner hurled an 8-pound ham and started swinging his fists.
``They didn't get anything,'' said Morris McClure, 61. ``I've worked too hard to give up my money to three punks like that.''
Sheriff Steve Cronic said McClure was attacked Thursday after one of the teens asked for ham.
BOSTON (AP) -- Seeing a beautiful woman triggers a pleasure response in a man's brain similar to what a hungry person gets from eating or an addict gets from a fix, scientists say.
Researchers said the study, published Wednesday in the journal Neuron, shows that feminine beauty affects a man's brain at a very primal level, not on some higher, more intellectual plane.
``Beauty is working similar to a drug,'' said Dan Ariely of Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management, a co-author of the study.
Researchers showed a group of heterosexual men in their mid-20s pictures of men and women of varying attractiveness, while measuring the brain's responses through computer imaging.
The beautiful women were found to activate the same ``reward circuits'' as food and cocaine do. The men had a negative reaction to pictures of good-looking males, suggesting they were threatened by them, study author Hans Breiter said.
WHO WILL RID ME OF THIS MAN?
CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) - A woman began a lifelong sentence behind bars Friday, never to be released, for murdering and skinning her boyfriend in a cannibal orgy.
And all I was going to mention was that OJ's mom died.
Kesey, who felt it only proper that Genet meet another great writer, showed up, stoned, of course, to chat. After his chat he noticed the Panthers; he immediately wanted to play basketball. As he put it, "There's nothing better than playing basketball with Negroes. The Panthers figuring they were dealing with a nut case, split.
I met Kesey in S.F. in 1968, where he was holding a rally. He expressed dissatisfaction with the existing political party, so we all formed a new one, The Harmonic Party. I guess we all put up a buck or so, probably so Ken could get more stoned. Now he is gone and I all I can say is he ended up ashes, not dust.
Rest easy, Ken.
Not too long ago, around 1990, I had a chance to attend a play in Springfield, Ore. where Ken was in a small play. A good friend of mine was also in the play and, of course, there would be a party afterward. I blew it Cellar. Because it would have meant a trip of about 300 miles, I turned down the invitation, thinking there would be other times. Now I like Kesey, am running out of time. Do not ask for who the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
MOM CHARGED IN MISSISSIPPI FIRE THAT KILLED 6 KIDS
The mother of six children killed in a house fire in Mississippi was charged with manslaughter after authorities say it appeared they had been left home alone.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/11/mississippi.fire.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. investigators said on Tuesday initial information from the cockpit voice recorder found in the wreckage of an American Airlines plane indicated Monday's crash was an accident and not sabotage.
finally, some sliver of good news
The voice recorder only establishes that no one went to the cockpit and said "bwahahahaha! you're all gonna die!" But I think that was known anyway.
The real issue is whether or not it was a bomb or a catastrophic mechanical failure, and that can't be determined by the voice recorder. Not so's I know about it, anyway.
ASHINGTON, Nov. 13 -- U.S. investigators said on Tuesday initial information from the cockpit voice recorder found in the wreckage of an American Airlines plane indicated Monday's crash was an accident and not sabotage.
"The cockpit voice recorder is the biggest information that we have and a quick listen to that last evening in Washington showed nothing that would imply any sort of unusual activity in the cockpit other than the accident sequence," said National Transportation Safety Board spokesman George Black.
The first paragraph is not an accurate characterization of what Black said.
No normal person just snaps one day and decides to skin and cook her boyfriend. There are signs and portents that precede such utter lunacy.
Take my next-door neighbors, for example. They fight (not physically) and then he ends up kicking her out of the house. The cops have been over there more than a dozen times in the two and a half years they've lived there. This is not counting the times the fire department or the paramedics have been over because she thinks she's dying----or wants to go to the hospital and her boyfriend won't take her.
He's even had the cops come and make her vacate the premises. They stood over her while she packed and escorted her off the property.
And yet, however long she's gone she's always back living there within three months. She doesn't work. She can't hold a conversation---it's like talking to the black-heliocopter folks at the bus-stop----she's either deathly ill or a pathological hypochondriac AND this goes on around a six year old child over whom the guy has shared custody with his ex-wife (who seems quite sane).
Okay, this woman is clearly going to blow one day. She is going to poison them all at dinner or hack them into pieces or shoot them or burn down the house while they sleep. It's only a matter of time and yet he keeps letting her come back.
What is wrong with people?
I only heard that they thought there might've been a fuel dump, but that it seemed unlikely and were waiting to hear from Transportation/Coast Guard.
Also, I haven't heard anything about two engines falling off. All of the eye-witness accounts from yesterday only claimed one-----the one that fell into the boat in the backyard.
There is growing support that a compact flock of birds may be the cause, incidentally. Neither engine shows any evidence of internal problems.
Birds flying into the engine could certainly screw up the engine; I don't know that it would cause the engine to fall off. Besides, both engines? Birds? Falling off?
I suspect that it will be easy for many to see that I, um, don't exactly have an engineering degree.
Birds have always left me uneasy.
Both engines and the tail. That's really weird.
Evidence Suggests One or Both Engines Fell Off
Investigative sources said late yesterday that both of the Airbus A-300's engines and its vertical tail section, which were found apart from the main fuselage, appear to have broken away from the aircraft before the crash.
In the past, some airliners have suffered the sudden separation of one engine while in flight, but both engines on a twin-engine jet breaking away is extraordinary -- and raises the possibility of either sabotage or a major maintenance failure, the sources said.
"We're utterly baffled," said one official. "This is not even within statistical calibrations."
Those would be my two guesses, as well. But maintenance failure that caused both engines and the tail to fall off is hard to envision, unless someone just didn't put the plane back together again. But I don't think the maintenance that had been done the day before involved taking it off.
I'm not convinced either way about what caused this. But I hope to hell they're checking every last commercial jet down to its rivets.
I've been wondering if airlines are doing more inspections, or are spending their money on anti-terrorist things.
And, the maintenance log for this plane will be revealing as to whether they did anything about the advisory, and when they last did maintenance.
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/14/wny14.xml
Investigators believe that the unusually wide distribution of the A300's wreckage shows that pieces were falling off virtually throughout its three-minute flight, suggesting that the disaster's main contributory event occurred very early.
It's really sort of a scary article.
Snow, be happy you aren't on the one that crashes. Thanks for the site...it is scary.
The plane itself had received routine service on 11/9, iirc - just 3 days prior to the crash. It occurred to me when I heard this that perhaps during that service someone had loosened some stuff that should've been tightened, and I'm sure they've checked into that.
That's not a reasonable explanation. 747's create moderate amounts of turbulence compared to other passenger jets, &IAC, the JAL 747 passed through that airspace before the Airbust more than the minimum 2 minutes required by flight rules.
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- A man shot during a 1966 shooting spree at the University of Texas has died from complications from the gunshot wound to his only good kidney, officials said.
David H. Gunby, 58, was pronounced dead Monday at a Fort Worth hospital after deciding to stop dialysis treatment.
``We have had a couple of cases where a person died years later after an injury, but I don't think we've had a case that was this long, dated back this far,'' said Linda Anderson, a spokeswoman for the Tarrant County medical examiner.
Gunby, then a 23-year-old engineering student, was one of 31 people shot by Charles Whitman during a shooting spree from the top of the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin in August 1966. Sixteen people died after being shot by Whitman, who was killed by police.
I've never had a particulary good opinion of French engineering design. Cheap, unreliable automobiles such as Peugeots, and now meatbombs such as the Concorde and Airbust.
That puts me in mind of a joke about one definition of 'heaven on earth': English police, French Chefs and German Engineers
OTOH, 'hell on earth' is: German police, English Chefs and French Engineers
Senate Passes Two-Year Internet Tax Ban
By a voice vote, the Senate renewed a ban on Internet taxes that expired last month when lawmakers could not agree on a state sales tax provision.
United Puts Stun Guns in Cockpits
United Airlines will become the first major US airline to put Taser weapons, or stun guns, in every cockpit of its 500 planes.
Face Recognition Lands in California
At the Fresno, California, airport new digital-video cameras capture images of each traveler, store the images, and compare the passengers' features to a database of suspected terrorists.
There will be many, many terrorists in Fresno.
Really.
"Too late, Hijack Boy".
I believe they should go where they want to...out the door without a parachute as the plane flies over their desired destination.
(BBC)---Authorities in the United States have found another letter believed to contain anthrax.
The suspect letter was addressed to Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont, who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee.
It was dated 9 October and postmarked from Trenton, New Jersey, as was an anthrax-contaminated letter sent to Senate leader, Tom Daschle.
...When a plane is heavy and traveling at a relatively slow speed, a
