Here's a military presence.
Curfew and martial law are a tad different.
20029. AceofSpades - 9/11/2001 3:50:02 PM
Kill them all. All of them.
20030. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 3:50:25 PM
Message # 20022
I agree Indiana. I have four commercial pilots in my family, and I've had flying lessons, too. Flying a commercial airline, especially a Boeing 767, isn't "easy". After the last lesson I had, I sat in the cockpit with my great uncle, from Seattle to Dallas. The dials, switches, controls, and pattern of the interior was completely different than that of a cessna.
I think that these terrorists could fly commercial jets because they were trained pilots.
20031. LimeGirl - 9/11/2001 3:50:27 PM
I'm sure they had their own pilots, although the flight sims are so good these days, they could have done much of their training on those -- you can even choose your cockpit on them, so they could have been very familiar with it without a lot of actual practice.
Martial law doesn't seem like a good idea. It feels important that we attempt to stand strong, not become overly paranoid. It disturbs me to see how many things are closed today, I can't tell if they're closed as a day of mourning kind of thing, or if it's fear that's propelling them to all close. I can understand the first, if it's the second, I'm bothered.
20032. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 3:50:58 PM
When we find out who did this.....
anyone remember how to hang, draw and quarter someone?
20033. concerned - 9/11/2001 3:51:56 PM
Re. 20024 -
David Koresh could in no way have been considered a terrorist, of course.
20034. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 3:52:41 PM
Whoa! There's Ace.
Even some of the liberals were worried about you, old shoe.
20035. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 3:53:14 PM
From what I hear beteween lines from Swedish officials (including the Prime Minister) it is clear that a big international intelligence gathering operation is underway.
20036. ronski - 9/11/2001 3:53:17 PM
No pilot would fly a plane into a building. He'd crash it first. The terrorists had to include pilots. They needn't have been super skilled, but they would have had to have some experience flying a jet.
My guess is that if it is bin Laden, he had these guys in his employ for some time. They were probably pilots for the military in a middle eastern country at some time. Or commercial pilots, but many of those have military experience. Whether this implicates an actual state though is another matter.
20037. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 3:53:30 PM
I like a strong military presence. Show the terrorists that we're tough and fully capable of destroying small countries. I like organization. This also shows strength in my opinion.
20038. ronski - 9/11/2001 3:53:59 PM
Ace,
You may not believe this, but some of us were worried about you.
20039. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 3:54:20 PM
curfew and martial law entirely unnecessary...this is not a residential area but a business area that typically drained of people at 5. Right now, hordes of people are walking across the bridges trying to get home. It looks like a NY city marathon in reverse.
20040. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 3:56:33 PM
thoughtful,
When we find out who did this.....
anyone remember how to hang, draw and quarter someone?
We can't, remember? We don't believe in the death penalty it's too barbaric, just ask Pelle.
Me personally, I say execute everyone involved.
20041. ronski - 9/11/2001 3:57:39 PM
There are plenty of apartments in adjacent Battery Park City. I actually hope those people are not prevented from going to their homes. It is no doubt traumatic enough for them already.
20042. concerned - 9/11/2001 3:57:48 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but choosing the WTC buildings was not a very good choice for a terrorist attack, since (I've never been there) it would seem that there might be a high proportion of foreign nationals present in those buildings.
And the hit that international, not just American, stock exchanges and markets are taking aren't going to be making the perpetrators and sympathizers of these terrorist acts anything but enemies in the industrialized nations.
20043. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 3:59:19 PM
A friend of ours who was military intelligence for 8 years was just contacted by his former superior. Somehow they tracked his cellphone number and wanted to know his location.
It seems that the military is going to use all of its resources, including members not even in reserve anymore!
20044. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:00:07 PM
Jenna:
I like a strong military presence.
You just want to see all those musclebound men milling about in their uniforms. Admit it.
20045. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:00:20 PM
connie,
A large subway bombing attack by Palestinian Arabs was planned for Brooklyn but was thwarted, only blocks from the second-largest Arab community in the borough. They don't think about these things.
20046. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 4:00:48 PM
I was in Moscow at the time of the August/September 1999 terrorist bombings which eventually led to the second Chechen war. Like the USA, Russia had been more or less a virgin to such attacks. And the reactions being heard on the television in the USA are eerily reminiscent of the reactions I heard and saw in Russia.
On the other hand, I'm sure Arab-Americans would not be rounded up. At the Kazan railway station in Moscow two days after the bombing, I witnessed two Caucasians being harassed, strip-searched at gun point and nearly beaten by the Moscow militia.
20047. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:01:02 PM
The hardest parts of flying are take-off and landing. I assume the hijackers let the commercial pilot take off, then took over. Obviously, they didn't need to know how to land. They had to have some flying experience, but they didn't need to be very experienced pilots or commercial pilots.
20048. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:02:36 PM
Here's a military presence.
20049. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:02:53 PM
Mind you, I'm not convinced about who is responsible. I do think a home-grown band of nuts is not entirely out of the question, but it is unlikely. We haven't had any major suicide political attacks. At least not yet.
20050. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:03:11 PM
On the contrary, I think the World Trade Center is the perfect target. Visible and unmistakeable from the air, lots of deaths with good chances for collateral damage around it, symbolic of but also integral to America's economic empire, and less likely to be well defended.
Hitting the Pentagon was much ballsier on that last score.
Make no mistake, though. I'm with the "kill them all" faction. And "execution" sounds too medicinal.
I have calmed down some from this morning, but I expect once I'm able to get around a TV and see footage that will change.
20051. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:04:26 PM
Ace, it's good to see you. I wasn't completely sure, but I thought you said you worked downtown.
I heard on the radio that a guy called in on his cell to say they were hijacked; has it been on the news or was that a rumor?
20052. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 4:04:54 PM
The commercial jet that crashed in western Penn. was aiming itself at Camp David, Maryland.
20053. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:05:46 PM
The footage is horrifying. I don't choke up much at disaster footage, but the first time I saw the building collapse it was extremely upsetting. And it's only going to get worse.
20054. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:06:51 PM
Concerned,
The WTC is the symbol of America's wealth and the Pentagon the symbol of its military might. Why would the presence of lesser countries' financial offices deter a terrorist from striking at the heart of American business?
Any:
How about something simple? All four flights are regular commuter-type flights-----hence the low flight numbers. They fly every day, on time to regular destinations with a specific amount of fuel.
What's so difficult about buying six or eight tickets for each of these flights and putting your terrorist crews aboard them and then taking over the flights?
Most of the timing is just regularly scheduled by air traffic controll. All the terrorists had to do was get on the plane, overpower the crew & passengers and then replace the pilot with one of their own to ensure the target.
It doesn't seem all that complicated to me. Perhaps that's why it's so horrifying.
20055. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:06:54 PM
It was on the news. See 1:20pm on the news monitor site I linked.
Here's the link again:
News Monitor
20056. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:07:25 PM
CNN is quoting US sources that say they have specific, new intelligence information linking this with Osama followers.
20057. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:07:31 PM
Maybe the US govt. should hire Stooge Reno to smoke out the perpetrators. We already know she has no qualms over roasting babies.
20058. Åse - 9/11/2001 4:07:47 PM
One of the links in this article http://www.sptimes.com/ has a section about the cell-phone guy.
That was on the plane that crashed in pennsylvania.
20059. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:07:47 PM
NBC said that the guy who called was on the plane that crashed in Pittsburgh. He was apparently calling from the bathroom.
20060. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:07:48 PM
ronski: Sure it could be home-grown. If it turns out to be Middle Easterners who were in Bin Laden's employ for a long time and trained as pilots as you posited earlier, that's a helluva deal. In that case our intelligence agencies probably deserve shooting only a little less than the people who did this. If people meeting that description can roam around and board US planes in groups without detection...!?
OTOH, remember, Tim McVeigh was an ex-US military.
20061. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:08:06 PM
While you are there, check out the link to the State Dept Travel Warnings
20062. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:09:24 PM
MsNo,
But they must have had guns, and I think guns are still hard to get on planes.
20063. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:10:46 PM
Nice gun Rustler. I shall hire you to protect me.
Perhaps I'm in touch with my "masculine" side, because I am the biggest fan of the military. If I had it to all over again, I would have enlisted in the airforce or have been a SWAT sniper.
In any case, I think that it shows strength, unity, and purpose when the US rallies behind a strong and orderly US military presence. We have to show the world that we're tough and that we're going to make it.
20064. Absensia - 9/11/2001 4:11:20 PM
Ms. No...didn't know they were commuter flights. We don't have those here..makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks.
20065. mizphys - 9/11/2001 4:11:54 PM
I don't think they would have had to have guns. Just maybe a vial of something that they could say was a biological weapon or something.
20066. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:12:11 PM
Re. 20062 -
Not if the luggage isn't inspected, as it should be. Also, I know of a Glock pistol, for instance, which is designed to not be detectable by X Rays.
20067. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:12:55 PM
Ms. No:
I guess you're right, but still - I don't know. How did they succeed so devastatingly? They always fuck up in even the simplest of schemes -and here, they succeeded so amazingly!
20068. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:14:04 PM
I think that the planes only had about three terrorists on board, assuming that none were on them in a professional capacity.
20069. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:14:28 PM
Indy,
The reasons you cite is why I haven't ruled out McVeigh types. But why would homegrown nuts want to go after the WTC, and not the White House, Capital, etc. This smacks more of people concerned about American "imperialism." And that doesn't sound like American militia types to me.
And if Camp David was indeed a target, and it's the anniversary of the Camp David accords, it points overseas.
20070. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:14:35 PM
767 and 757 are not commuter flights.
20071. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 4:14:41 PM
Pray for the NYC firefighters and their families. ABC reported that at least 200 are dead.
20072. judithathome - 9/11/2001 4:14:52 PM
Building 7 of the WTC complex is on fire now and expected to collapse...CNN.
20073. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:15:18 PM
Someone was saying that if there were enough of them they didn't need guns. That's true.
20074. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:15:23 PM
Boston to LA is a pretty long commuter flight. No doubt the planes were full of gasoline making the explosions much more intense.
20075. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:15:34 PM
CG,
Why must? I think that six or eight military trained killers hi-jacking a plane are scary enough for most folks not to attempt to over-power them.
In the event that someone did try, there are other weapons besides guns that can be smuggled onto a plane that would discourage heroic attempts.
I think it could easily come down to a numbers game. It's hard to get 35 people to risk their lives all at once to attack terrorists when the odds are that they'll be rescued or spared later.
20076. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 4:15:54 PM
plastique is not detectable by the metal detectors
20077. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:15:55 PM
Capitol.
20078. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:16:05 PM
commuter planes, I mean.
20079. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:16:09 PM
The size of the nation will temper the bloodlust. Because we are so massive, even as grand scale an attack as this will be absorbed rather quickly. To the extent any rabid calls for hasty retribution continue, they will exist simply because television will let them vent under the banner "America Under Attack -Day ___".
Regardless, trust in the media's ability to suck the meaning and context out of any happening (in 36 hours, real, seemingly non-retarded people will be taking the positions taken by jexster and concerned before Geraldo and O'Reilly and the rest of the crew), and any dangerous venom will be dissipated under a blizzard of human interest stories ("Arab Beaten in Puxatawney"), political blather, rank speculation (cue Pierre Salinger), and the airing of all opinions, no matter how moronic.
After Karne Hughes statement, for example, the well-coiffed Brian Williams opened his comments to Tim Russert with (I kid you not), "Style point, here, Tim . . ." as he queried whether the Presdient should have spoken, as opposed to Ms. Hughes.
Concern over style points mutes vengeance.
Thus, hopefully, political pressure to react will be stymied, and we can bide our time to find the perpetrators.
And then, as Ace states, in a month, or two, or six, kill them. Kill them all.
20080. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 4:16:45 PM
I'm falling asleep.
20081. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 4:16:54 PM
The question is, why were the DC targets so much less ambitious (in terms of visibility) than in New York?
20082. LimeGirl - 9/11/2001 4:17:25 PM
It doesn't seem like it'd be out of the ordinary that Bin Laden would have pilots in his employ. And intelligence could know about this, and still not expect that him having people who knew how to fly planes would end up like it did.
When they try to be exceedingly careful about letting Middle Easterners into the country, then you get articles like the one I read a while back about an author from the Middle East who was coming to the US for an awards ceremony or something, and he refused to be fingerprinted, so they wouldn't let him in. And he was horrifed at how prejudiced the US was.
It's difficult to find the balance, and if they are more secure about checking identities on entry into the country, they're going to get flak about it. This incident may make people care less about the fussing about more difficult entry, but it certainly has been an issue in the past.
20083. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:17:51 PM
CG,
No, not commuter flights in the sense of small business jumps that the same people take every day. But commuter-type in that they are regular, daily flights going to the same destination, possibly with the same flight crews day after day after day. Yes, trans-continental but still just a long bus-ride kind of flight.
20084. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:18:37 PM
ronski: I know. But suppose you wanted to do something and blame it on the Arabs. After all, they already hit the WTC once.
Until they recover the black boxes, the passenger lists are the biggest clues. And that's why I'd look for pilots or people with pilot training.
My bet is that it's the usual suspects (Middle East terrorists). But maybe not.
20085. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:18:43 PM
The tops of the World Trade Center fall before the eyes of Guiliani, he screams "Fuck!" They play the cut. Go to Brian Williams.
"Style point, here, Tim . . . "
20086. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:18:47 PM
Planes are equipped with emergency notification systems. The fact that none of the flights were reported as being hijacked *during* the flights (except for the lone cell call) tells me that either the pilots were executed immediately or that the pilots themselves were the terrorists.
20087. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:19:19 PM
I dunno. I'd be delighted if we do retaliate, but ever since someone mentioned Lockerbie--and, for that matter, the WTC--I've been wondering if that's not a possibility. It will just fade from view.
20088. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:19:34 PM
I'm not sure the DC targets were less ambitious, the Pentagon and Camp David.
20089. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:19:49 PM
FU -
--will be taking the places of Jexster and FU, that is...
20090. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 4:20:47 PM
Guns. Why assume they needed guns? I would think on each plane at least 3-4 men were involved, one of whom would have to fly the plane. The US pilot and copilot would have been killed (hell, you can strangle a man with a necktie), then the terrorist pilot guided the plane to the target. I would think the age of the terrorists to be dissimilar to avoid the appearance of a group, and on board at least two or three would be needed to stand outside the cockpit door to prevent passengers from rushing the hijacking pilot. Any weapon - a plastic shiv - could cut down anyone who approached, and I think the terrorists probably said to the crew and passengers they had nothing to fear as this was a hijacking that would end by safely landing the plane at the nearest airport.
You've all flown on US airlines and you know how casual it can be for passengers in the front to go to the bathrooms next to the cockpit; it would be easy to threaten a flight attendant to open the door, or even step in when the flight attendants were serving beverages and lunch to the flight crew.
20091. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:20:56 PM
Re. 20084 -
Aliases are quite likely...
20092. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:21:03 PM
Style point, here, ronski.
Isn't targeting Camp David too visible a shot at American Jewry?
Would not Bin Laden have been better served targeting Camp Ochebogowa?
20093. alistairconnor - 9/11/2001 4:21:16 PM
Here's an extract from the BBC: pilots reckon it's not that hard for an amateur to hit a skyscraper.
By BBC News Online's Sheila Barter and Jenny Matthews
The pilots of the doomed American airliners could have been dead by the time their planes hit their targets, say airline experts.
Ex-pilots believe that even a man with a gun to his head would not fly into a building housing thousands of people - and faced with certain death, would crash the plane elsewhere.
I doubt the pilots were at the controls
David Learmount, Flight International
And a terrorist with no previous flying experience would have found it relatively easy to steer a plane through the final moments of its journey and into its target, David Learmount, Operations and Safety Editor of Flight International, told BBC News Online.
"It would be dead easy to aim an aircraft at a target that big," he said.
"They may have shot the pilots, or taken out at least one of them, and taken over the controls.
I'm sure they would never have got an airline pilot to have done their dirty work
Anonymous pilot
"As a former pilot, I would just aim for the ground, even if it would mean the death of everyone on board.
"I doubt the pilots were at the controls."
Other pilots also believe the crews were dead.
"I'm sure they would never have got an airline pilot to have done their dirty work. I hope it was mercifully quick," said one contributor to the pilots' internet site, the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network.
20094. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 4:21:39 PM
The targets I'm sure were all symbols of US power.
20095. judithathome - 9/11/2001 4:21:45 PM
if they are more secure about checking identities on entry into the country, they're going to get flak about it.
Who cares? Let the flak fly rather than highjacked planes; Israel gets flak for the stringent checks they do at the airports but it works.
20096. LimeGirl - 9/11/2001 4:22:05 PM
I'd think there could be all kinds of ways to get weapons onto a plane besides waltzing through the metal detector with them. People have to clean the plane between flights, etc. They could have figured out a way to have their weapons ready and waiting for them when they boarded.
20097. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:22:23 PM
Christin--but the flights leaving at that time would normally be packed. It is possible that traffic really is that light due to the recession, but it is still unusual.
Francis--that the media have already named this catastrophe demonstrates that it's just one more item in a busy news cycle. If the public buys this approach, it's even more likely they'll all forget about this in a few months.
20098. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:24:35 PM
The media is based in NY and DC. The media will have known people who died. The media will not forget.
20099. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:24:44 PM
It is the true testament to American greatness, the twin towers of vastness of size and short attention spans.
This is not a criticism. Look at the fates of the little nations that can never let more minor violent slights go.
20100. Seamus - 9/11/2001 4:25:01 PM
They had knives or somesuch, since two of the flight attendants were described as having been "stabbed" before the assailants got onto the flight deck.
20101. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:25:11 PM
Scott,
It is awfully hard to get into the cockpit. Also, I'm not sure that passengers would sit still for a hijacking if there weren't guns involved. Maybe. I agree that it is possible, and probably more possible than them getting guns on the plane.
20102. LimeGirl - 9/11/2001 4:25:27 PM
Who cares? Let the flak fly rather than highjacked planes; Israel gets flak for the stringent checks they do at the airports but it works.
Obviously. But usually it takes an event of disasterous proprotions before people are willing to do things like that.
20103. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:25:27 PM
Re. 20050 -
I was speaking in terms of the extent of the backlash that would result from such actions.....
20104. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:26:01 PM
I'm worried about my co-workers of middle-eastern extraction. I hope none of the rednecks in town hurt them.
20105. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:26:17 PM
God forbid that any flight attendants be armed.
20106. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:26:32 PM
Expert says bin Laden warned of unprecedented
U.S. attack
20107. mizphys - 9/11/2001 4:27:00 PM
Speaking of Britain, my children's school headmaster just called and expressed his condolences to us because he knows we're American and from New York. It was a nice gesture, but kind of odd too.
20108. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:27:10 PM
People will not forget about this in a few months.
The destruction of the Manhattan skyline, the destruction of the Pentagon and *thousands* of lives lost is not the same as the "End of Camelot".
20109. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:27:31 PM
ronski
The media will not fotget, they will simply chew on it from so many increasingly absurd angles that it will lose meaning, hopefully giving adults the opportunity to assess, calculate and strike.
For example, what was the time span between the killing of American servicemen at the German disco and the massive bombing of Libya, a bombing that killed many in Qaddafi's (sp?) family an left him without testicles?
20110. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:27:41 PM
It is the true testament to American greatness, the twin towers of vastness of size and short attention spans.
True enough. But if we don't figure out a way to retaliate in a manner suitable to our attention span, I'm not sure how long we can stay great. That presumes continued attacks, though, and I doubt too many of this magnitude can be pulled off in a decade.
20111. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:28:51 PM
The destruction of the Manhattan skyline, the destruction of the Pentagon and *thousands* of lives lost is not the same as the "End of Camelot".
Well, as far as the news coverage goes, it is. In any event, I wouldn't count on it. No, we won't "forget"--not with the media around to remind us. But there is a real possibility that we'll "move on".
20112. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:28:55 PM
If I were coordinating a timed attack involving four jets hitting targets around the US, I'd want pilots flying them. Remember also that the second jet hit the second tower.
I also read (which may of course may be false among so much other rumor today) that the hit on the Pentagon was in a particularly sensitive area. Of course that may also have been luck.
But you don't carefully plan and think of details like choosing planes with full trans-continental fuel loads while saying "Let Abdul crash the plane. He always wanted to fly one of these birds."
20113. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:29:09 PM
I got a call from my English family. I was having trouble reaching them. I had taken my late partner's brother and wife to the WTC area several times. They are in shock.
20114. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:30:07 PM
Tom Brokaw said that Barbara Olson called her husband from her cell phone to say 'We're being hijacked; can you believe that?' and then the phone went dead.
20115. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:30:40 PM
The greatest attack on US soil in history will not be forgotten.
Oklahoma wasn't, neither will New York.
If anything, this will have a lasting legacy of anti-Muslim sentiment.
It was bad during the Gulf War, I can only imagine how bad it's going to be now.
20116. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:31:16 PM
Contrary to FU's and CalGal's beliefs, there shouldn't be much worry about people 'forgetting' this. Many still haven't 'forgotten' the OC bombing, which was only a hundredth as damaging.
20117. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:31:19 PM
Fortunately, travel is light right now. So in the short term, everyone will tolerate any increased security. Economy picks up, travel increases, and we have very short memories. Figure a year, maybe less, of tight security.
Incidentally, American and United must be absolutely shellshocked.
20118. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:31:34 PM
Seamus: Where did you hear that detail about the flight attendant?
20119. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:32:06 PM
Oh, I thought Judith said Olsen was at the Pentagon.
20120. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:32:19 PM
They're advising people in Muslim attire to stay out of public areas. It begins.
20121. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:32:21 PM
CalGal,
Forgetting is not the same as moving on, surely you know this.
20122. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 4:32:27 PM
Was Camp David actually attacked?
20123. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:32:40 PM
Re. 20117 -
There will be permanent security changes at airports, or at least ones that will last many years.
20124. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:33:03 PM
Eh, the anti-Muslim sentiment suggests backwaterism that I don't believe is the case. Now, when some person of Middle Eastern descent does get a sock in the jaw, count on six camera crews and page 1.
20125. Seamus - 9/11/2001 4:33:04 PM
IJ,
Unfortunately, I'm suffering from source overload, so I can't remember, but it was part of the reported conversation between the 911 operator and the cell phone guy.
20126. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:33:05 PM
Re. 20122 -
No.
20127. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:33:06 PM
Yeah, Barbara Olson is said to have called from the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.
20128. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:33:22 PM
No. But it has been reported that the fourth plane downed in Pennsylvania was headed there.
20129. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:33:31 PM
Many still haven't 'forgotten' the OC bombing, which was only a hundredth as damaging.
They caught him and he acted alone. Besides, Americans have "forgotten" it to the extent that they would resist the hell out of any increased security in the name of OKC.
20130. judithathome - 9/11/2001 4:33:49 PM
Cal, I said she was on the plane that hit the Pentagon...bizarre that she was able to call her husband.
20131. ronski - 9/11/2001 4:33:55 PM
Last message to PE.
20132. mizphys - 9/11/2001 4:35:01 PM
I heard an interview with Tom Clancy on BBC Radio 4 today (speaking of angles on the story); he apparently wrote a novel in which terrorists crash a plane into the Capitol Building. He was urging people not to turn against islamics. Or novelists, presumably.
20133. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:35:06 PM
I believe it was not actually attacked but that one of the two other hijacked planes that crashed was "aimed" for Camp David.
I'm not sure how they could know that when there weren't any survivors.
20134. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:35:15 PM
CG,
I don't know what the normal occupancy for those flights is. Perhaps they are merely flights to return planes to LA and SF. I'm sure that info will come out later. All I'm saying is that the hi-jacked flights were routine, daily flights which means that the scheduling is cake and the security is likely to be far more lax than for other flights. It means that the plan could be far cheaper and far simpler than many have proposed.
Simple, cheap plans work best. Their the easiest to remember and execute and have less chance for error.
20135. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:35:31 PM
Oh, duh. I thought she was in the Pentagon.
Doesn't sound like she was particularly worried, which does suggest something like Scott's scenario.
Jenerator--that we can "move on" from this the way we "moved on" from OKC or the WTC is rather frightening. Short of a war, I see nothing that will prevent it from being equated to the two lesser events in a year or two.
20136. Åse - 9/11/2001 4:36:01 PM
> Incidentally, American and United must be absolutely shellshocked.
Oh, I believe that (ex-United worker here).
Wonder what on earth they will do.
20137. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:36:06 PM
Maybe if Hilliary flies over to Palestine and kisses Arafat's wife again, everything will be smoothed over.
Whaddya think?
20138. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:36:40 PM
CalGal,
Are you nuts? Manhattan is devastated as is Washington and you think people are going to forget about it and resist increased security??!!
20139. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:37:42 PM
MsNo,
I have often travelled on early flights East-West, and really, the count seems light. But it may just be the recession. I'll ask my dad later.
20140. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 4:37:48 PM
the exaggeration has already begun, Guiliani referring to this as the most heinous act in world history. This is bad, but really!
20141. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:38:58 PM
Good style point, thoughtful.
20142. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:40:27 PM
May I say how stylish you probably looked in your red shirt, FU?
20143. Raskolnikov - 9/11/2001 4:40:31 PM
Emotions are high, so cut people slack.
20144. Toenails - 9/11/2001 4:40:40 PM
What I think, concerned, is that you're an all-American asshole. This isn't about Hilary or Clinton. God! Get OFF it already!
And Jex is an even-bigger asshole, since he's busy attacking the current President, even before he's had any opportunity to act.
20145. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:40:43 PM
Thoughtful,
Really? Provide a short list of single acts that tally up.
Ase,
My dad works for American, now that I think of it, since they bought TWA. I know how TWA felt about flight 800, and it pales in comparison.
Jen,
No, I'm not nuts. I'm also not big into exclamation points.
20146. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:41:08 PM
Short of a war, I see nothing that will
prevent it from being equated to the two lesser
events in a year or two.
The only people I could imagine this of are the stay at homes and children.
20147. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:41:27 PM
Jen
Withing 2 weeks of increased airport security, the news stories regarding civil liberties, racial profiling, increased travel time, and poor airline response will outnumber stories including the by-then well-worn footage of the cascading World Trade Center 10 to 1.
20148. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 4:41:29 PM
Now we know NYC is in real shock...they've opened the whitestone and throgs neck bridge and are letting people through without paying tolls!
20149. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:42:49 PM
They'd never have dared do that if Robert Moses were alive, Thoughtful!
20150. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:44:18 PM
Re. 20144 -
But isn't it true that their policies have had a large impact in creating the current Mideast situation, unlike GWB's?
20151. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:45:01 PM
mgleason
If I do say so, I was precise, somber and lugubrious, all at the same time. I even stated, "At the risk of the hackneyed, my thought was that this was our generation's Pearl Harbor, with enemies unknown, but certainly not identifiable nations such as a Germany or Japan."
To which the interviewer said, "Hack-what?"
And the cameraman added that "Pearl Harbor" sucked and he didn't care what I said.
20152. Åse - 9/11/2001 4:46:12 PM
How are they going to come back? (The airlines).
I flew Pan Am to Sweden the first time I went back after moving to the US - this was a year or two after Lockerbie, and I was still working for United (they didn't fly there, so no flight bennies). They had all these security things in place that I wasn't used to, and haven't quite seen since (except when flying Northwestern out of Amsterdam this spring).
I have no idea if the disaster had any connection to their demise, though.
20153. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:46:39 PM
Well, that's because you should have said "at the risk of sounding hackneyed." Poor interviewer didn't understand the context.
20154. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:47:07 PM
All of the malls have been closed. My mom is locked in City Hall.
20155. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:48:06 PM
But I'm sure you looked good, FU.
20156. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:48:35 PM
I never risk sounding hackneyed. I either do it full bore or don't.
20157. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 4:49:10 PM
Why doesn't anyone mention Saddam?
20158. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:49:20 PM
mgleason
Your assuredness pleases me.
20159. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:50:35 PM
Ase,
I don't know that anything will ever outweigh the American dislike of inconvenience.
That said, heaven help the next folks who try to hijack a plane; I don't think the passengers will be accomodating.
20160. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 4:50:36 PM
I mentioned Iraq waaaaaayyyyyy upthread Pelle.
20161. Jenerator - 9/11/2001 4:50:59 PM
Francis,
I welcome tighter security at the airports and I think that people will understand the need for it. Granted there will always be weirdos like the ones who yelled at the woman in Seattle to jump simply because they were inconvenienced, but, I think that this is slightly different and people will be more patient.
20162. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:51:01 PM
they're
they're
they're
they're
sheesh
20163. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:51:07 PM
Re. 20157 -
He doesn't strike me as being insane enough to pull a stunt like that.
20164. mgleason - 9/11/2001 4:51:14 PM
Damn. There were 40 fire companies before the second tower collapsed. Most are feared dead.
Fires are still burning in the area, and rescue workers waiting to go in.
20165. thoughtful - 9/11/2001 4:51:36 PM
Saddam.
There.
20166. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:52:00 PM
But "at the risk of the hackneyed" has no meaning, does it? One can either be it or sound it. But it's not a noun.
20167. Seamus - 9/11/2001 4:52:34 PM
Saddam
20168. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:53:00 PM
One other point.
When the retribution occurs, it almost has to be disappointing unless it has an identifiable head. Otherwise, it will be a throng of cruise missiles slamming into some baby food factory or some town or some military outpost.
That was what made the retaliation against Qaddafi so right. We killed his family and his shaggy ass was hiding under the desk like Bernard Shaw.
Bounty on Bin Laden. $10 million. $20 million with the head brought back.
And the decimation of his family, town, village, livestock and social circles.
Including his book club.
20169. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:53:13 PM
I welcome tighter security at the airports and I think that people will understand the need for it.
Past experience contradicts you. But as I said, we're in a recession so it will be a while before the protests start.
20170. Åse - 9/11/2001 4:53:52 PM
>I don't know that anything will ever outweigh the
American dislike of inconvenience.
I suspect that too.
Speaking of Saddam, wasn't a "US spy plane" (alleged) shot down over Iraq this morning? I think they talked about it on NPR right after "we have reports that an air plane has crashed into the world trade center" little blurb at the beginning of the news.
Not that I think these are necessarily connected.
20171. judithathome - 9/11/2001 4:54:31 PM
I know this is stupid of me to ask but is anyone else getting weird numbers at the top of the page when they refresh? Like "20156-20166 out of 20165"
20172. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:55:03 PM
When the retribution occurs, it almost has to be disappointing unless it has an identifiable head.
Well, it's not an original point. (g) I said the same thing. Americans were able to focus on McVeigh because he acted alone, or close to it.
20173. christipeters - 9/11/2001 4:55:17 PM
Ase - Yeah, I saw that on the news, too. It was a drone plane.
20174. concerned - 9/11/2001 4:56:30 PM
About the DFLP, from Stratfor:
1515 GMT, 010911
The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) has reportedly claimed responsibility for the attacks on the World Trade Center. This report, from a television station in Abu Dhabi, in unconfirmed.
The DFLP was formed in 1969 with an estimated membership of 500. It was originally based in Syria, but the location of its current headquarters are unknown. The DFLP receives financial and military aid from Syria and Libya. It operates in Syria, Lebanon, Israel and the occupied territories. Its leader is Naif Hawatmeh, according to Israeli-based Interdisciplinary Center.
The group was largely dormant from 1988 until this summer, when it claimed responsibility for an Aug. 25 attack against an Israeli military post in the Gaza Strip that left three Israeli soldiers dead. This attack was the first instance of Palestinians successfully using conventional military-style tactics.
Before this year, DFLP operations have always taken place either inside Israel or the West Bank and Gaza. Typical acts include minor bombings and grenade attacks, as well as operations to seize hostages and attempts to negotiate the return of Israeli-held Palestinian prisoners.
The group split from the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) years ago, but reconciled with the PFLP -and with Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat - in August 1999.
The attacks differ significantly from the DFLP's previous methods of operation. Likewise, the resources and infrastructure necessary for such attacks are far beyond the group's traditional means. Either the DFLP's claims are spurious, or it has joined forces with other groups.
20175. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:57:08 PM
Jen
What you welcome is interesting, but not necessarily relevant. You are an attractive, patriotic, statist, blonde. You might welcome the scrutiny and the added fondling (as might the security guard).
But a bazillion fliers and harassed men of Middle-Eastern descent and Ron Kuby and Paul Wellstone and the entire panel of Court TV will not. Nor will CBS, CNN, ABC, NBC, or MSNBC, all of whom have to come up with post-calamity stories in their never-ending quest to flesh out important "style points."
20176. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 4:57:46 PM
Indy
Sorry. I barged right in when I came home without backtracking.
20177. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 4:58:11 PM
Of course it is an original point, as I only read my own posts.
20178. Ms. No - 9/11/2001 4:58:19 PM
Judith,
Might be because the posts are moving so quickly, but I've had a couple of glitches with "posts per page" as well. I'm set for 20, but I got defaulted to 50 a couple of times and had to reset it.
20179. CalGal - 9/11/2001 4:59:18 PM
Nor will CBS, CNN, ABC, NBC, or MSNBC, all of whom have to come up with post-calamity stories in their never-ending quest to flesh out important "style points."
To say nothing of the fact that all the media folk are themselves frequent fliers and won't take kindly to delays.
20180. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:00:19 PM
When the retribution occurs, it almost has to be
disappointing unless it has an identifiable head.
Otherwise, it will be a throng of cruise missiles
slamming into some baby food factory or some town
or some military outpost.
The overuse of this type of 'retaliation' can be traced almost entirely to the last administration which used it numerous times to no effect. It is unimaginative and ineffective.
IOW, its primary aim was to temporarily divert the attention of the American public, for which reasons I won't state here at the risk of being unfairly called an 'asshole' again.
20181. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:01:26 PM
concerned
Please find your retarded brother.
20182. Seamus - 9/11/2001 5:01:33 PM
IJ,
I've looked but have been unable to find the source for that information I offered earlier. So, you may as well consider it spurious...as indeed most of my comments are.
20183. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:01:36 PM
Re. 20179 -
CalGal -
The convenience of the media and air travelers in general may well be indefinitely compromised by the legislation and regulations passed to increase security.
20184. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 5:01:51 PM
Someone on Free Republic is wondering whether Gary Condit will be able to attend the intelligence briefings.
20185. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 5:02:10 PM
I see this thing is already being trivialized into potential future delays at airports.
20186. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 5:03:13 PM
Seamus: I wasn't trying to question its accuracy. I just thought if details like that were becoming available then something about the hijackers themselves would be known soon as well.
20187. CalGal - 9/11/2001 5:03:29 PM
Francis,
Ah. Well, I was just taking a roundabout way of saying that I agreed with you, that the high likelihood of our only being able to snag a nameless hack or two increases the risk that we'll all move on and forget about it.
I wonder who will be caught?
"Yussuf--you are assigned to be captured and brought to trial." "No, no! I wanna go up in flames at the WTC!" "Sorry, Yussuf. But you'll fry eventually, and until then you'll have to suffer godless American television. It is a good way to die."
20188. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 5:03:37 PM
ABC has exclusive video of the second jet crashing into WTC from Trinity Church.
Unbelievable.
20189. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:04:20 PM
Pelle
Are you heaving sobs now, you supercilious scold?
20190. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:06:16 PM
Re. 20185 -
Blame CG for that, and worse.
20191. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:06:27 PM
If they do it right (i.e., let the media do their job and stuff the screaming mobs with chum until we draw a bead on the whole skeeving rabble and jelly-gas six generations in), we can all be happy.
20192. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:08:12 PM
And if concerned is correct and there are "legislation and regulations passed to increase security", that's a bonus.
20193. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 5:09:46 PM
Francis
Hahaha! (But how ashamed I am to laugh in these tragic circumstances)
20194. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:10:50 PM
Pelle
That's okay. Let it out.
20195. mgleason - 9/11/2001 5:12:09 PM
The President is en route to Washington, where he is to address the country tonight.
20196. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 5:15:44 PM
Good style move, that. Brian Williams will be reassured.
Adios.
20197. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:17:03 PM
What is the attitude of the US Socialist Party to this WTC/Pentagon disaster?
National security is not something that can be won by intimidation. Only peace with justice can be a secure peace. We will renew our own efforts to transform the United States into a country that has no enemies---not because our enemies have been vanquished, but because we are capable of getting along with our neighbors.
Don Doumakes
National Co-Chair
Socialist Party USA
Do I hear echoes of: 'Thank you, sir; can I have another?' in that?
20198. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 5:18:22 PM
You must be one of the 30,000 people in the country who watch MSNBC.
20199. Property of Jesus - 9/11/2001 5:18:28 PM
You must be one of the 30,000 people in the country who watch MSNBC.
20200. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:19:30 PM
...about this...
20201. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:21:46 PM
Just heard that US markets will be closed all week.
Not gonna forget that too soon.
20202. mgleason - 9/11/2001 5:22:08 PM
NBC has an unconfirmed report that an American flight attendant was on a cell phone with operations saying that the crew had been shot and another attendant stabbed when they lost contact with her.
20203. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:22:24 PM
or, could be closed all week (CYA)
20204. ronski - 9/11/2001 5:24:02 PM
If this hasn't been mentioned, bin Laden is officially denying involvement, but saying he supports actions like these.
It is also being suggested that he is not currently in Afghanistan.
20205. mgleason - 9/11/2001 5:25:12 PM
Another building, roughly twenty stories high, collapsed in the WTC complex.
20206. ronski - 9/11/2001 5:27:28 PM
That would be Bldg. Seven in the WTC complex, I believe. It had been hit by one of the collapsing towers.
20207. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 5:30:26 PM
A video of the second plane smashing into the WTC is available at CNN.
20208. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:31:00 PM
Building 7: 47 stories tall.
20209. mgleason - 9/11/2001 5:31:06 PM
Andrea Mitchell reports that there is evidence of Bin Laden's involvement, and that the US had warned the Taliban that they would be held personally responsible for any action on his part.
20210. Andonly - 9/11/2001 5:34:19 PM
Henry Kissinger to CNN: ''This is comparable to Pearl Harbor and we must have the same response and the people who did it must have the same end as the people who attacked Pearl Harbor.''
20211. ronski - 9/11/2001 5:35:18 PM
It was Seven, and it's gone.
20212. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:35:44 PM
I'm hearing reports of $3-$4 gasoline in some parts of the country, already.
Definitely negative effects on global markets.
20213. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 5:36:26 PM
Take him out, one way or the other.
1. We've wanted to do it for years.
2. World opinion will never be more on our side.
3. Whether he did this or not he would like to do it and has likely helped with such operations in the past.
4. If we don't and he pulls something like this in the future, then we're partly culpable.
5. If he didn't do it, it'll make those who did do it sleep less easily until we settle with them.
Assuming that not everyone involved is already dead, and I think that's probably a valid assumption.
20214. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 5:36:48 PM
Poor Henry. Hyping it up to get into the limelight again.
20215. Andonly - 9/11/2001 5:38:59 PM
Make no mistake: we have warplanes on the way to Afghanistan now, or possibly elsewhere. We're at war, folks, and nobody has realized it yet.
Ariel Sharon was just on TV saying the war against terrorism is a war of the free against "forces of darkness" and "forces of evil". He designated tomorrow a national day of mourning in Israel, pledged solidarity with the American people, and offered condolences to the victims of the attack.
20216. Jamie R - 9/11/2001 5:40:46 PM
Just wanted to say how impressed I am with this forum today. The dreck at the Rant is making me too ill to comment. Here's a sample:
As for the Palestinians, you can't really blame them. [for dancing over the deaths of innocents.] As far as they are concerned, the US is a big bully who deserves to be cut down a bit. And their view is not entirely unfounded. I agree, though, that they are not improving their position by open celebrations.
So nice to see such broadminded tolerance of differing viewpoints.
20217. ronski - 9/11/2001 5:42:09 PM
Fox is reporting that U.S. sources are saying there are signs pointing clearly to bin Laden, and that he has been training terrorists to fly jet planes in Afghanistan.
A professor from Bentley College on another network says it is also possible that the umbrella group in Afghanistan to which bin Laden is linked has a role.
Also, from Fox, that the actual pilots/terrorists could have been nationals from any number of countries.
20218. judithathome - 9/11/2001 5:44:40 PM
Just heard that Barbara Olson, on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, said they had knives and box cutters only, no guns...she called her husband on her cell phone before the crash.
20219. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:45:49 PM
It almost makes sense, given these hijackings and their results, to mandate 'fly by wire' commercial passenger aircraft in the future, where all cockpit control could be overriden by ground control if necessary.
This may ultimately be the most straightforward way to completely avoid future incidents such as the WTC/Pentagon terrorist attacks.
20220. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:48:13 PM
Re. 20218 -
That's actually positive news, in a way. Knives and box cutters on board an aircraft would be much
simpler to circumvent, in the future, than firearms.
20221. Slackjaw - 9/11/2001 5:51:30 PM
where all cockpit control could be overriden by ground control if necessary
Sounds like a great reason to storm an ATC tower, for the megalomaniacal terrorist group on your block.
20222. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 5:56:18 PM
I said, three or four persons, very dissimilar, in commercial class (forward section of the aircraft), using knives (anything but the guns some believe without which violence and force are impossible), one of whom can guide the plane to its target. One man - the pilot - gets up after the seatbuckle lights go off and goes into the bathrooms directly behind the cockpit; the others wait until the flight attendants go to the cockpit and open the door to deliver those cokes and meals to the flight crew. One or maybe two storm the cockpit, immediately killing the pilot and copilot (no conversation, no demands, just kill or incapacitate), then the "pilot" comes out of the bathroom and into the control seat as the attackers now stand guard over the entrance to the cockpit. They tell the passengers to sit down, be calm, the plane will land as soon as possible.
20223. AceofSpades - 9/11/2001 5:57:18 PM
Don't be assholes. Were the german people responsible for Hitler? Of course they fucking were. According to your faggy moralizing, we shouldn't have killed German soldiers or civilians, but ONLY Hitler and the German High Command.
A people get the goverment it deserves, and a people are responsible for the actions of its government.
Afganistan has been harboring bin Laden for ten years. Its citizens are complicit.
988. AceofSpades - 9/11/01 10:54:07 PM
This is war. You do not fight a war with "investigation," with the FBI, with trials, with "evidence." You fight a war by destroying enemy states who have attacked you.
This is war. This is not law enforcement.
Clinton embraced the law enforcement model for eight fucking years. It doesn't work.
This is war.
In war, cities get leveled. There are no trials. There are bombings. There are no jail sentences. There are assassinations.
989. AceofSpades - 9/11/01 10:56:36 PM
Incidentally, I'm suuuuuuure all those partying, clapping, singing maniacs in hebron, Cairo, Beirut, and Baghdad don't support terrorists, or give them safe harbor, or make donations to them, or get them clean passports when needed, etc.
Yuhp. Sure, they clap and sing about 10,000 murdered Americans. But they don't actually support such terrorism. Oh, no.
20224. concerned - 9/11/2001 5:58:23 PM
Re. 20221-
Not at all. Control can be switched between control towers, or even alternate sites, given the available technology of encryption, GPDs, etc. Authorization could also be restricted for such overrides to make it essentially impossible for random bandits to access it.
20225. Andonly - 9/11/2001 5:59:05 PM
Pelle: Kissinger has merely expressed what the American people feel, or will feel, when the shock wears off.
And incidentally, I have spent half the day trying to ascertain whether four people on my block alone, and two friends visiting from Dallas, were alive or dead. All are fine, but at least three would not have been but for little twists of fate. So--not to put too fine a point on it--I, for one, am not interested in reading more of your ever-so-arch remarks on this subject, at this particular point in time.
20226. Slackjaw - 9/11/2001 6:00:32 PM
"Yes, but this system really is fool proof."
20227. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:03:26 PM
Go to CNN to see Kabul being strafed by someone....
20228. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:03:50 PM
Bombings in Kabul..probably missles from Arabian Sea or Indian Ocean.
20229. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:05:07 PM
The reporter is saying it sounds like missles coming in...big fire at one point. Tracer bullets in retaliation.
20230. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:05:44 PM
Fuel depot seems to be hit.
20231. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:06:05 PM
Longer flights could also be required to have their 'galley cook' be trained and armed with such devices as would be efficacious in taking out knife and box cutter wielding scum.
20232. PelleNilsson - 9/11/2001 6:06:17 PM
Andonly
I couldn't care less about what you care to read or not. What I post here is not a function of your preferences. Am I making myself clear?
20233. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 6:07:10 PM
Off in search of a television set.
20234. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:07:50 PM
They may have come from warships and maybe US. But had to go through airspace of Pakistan, which means the President/General of Pakistan would haved to agree, no doubt. Regarless of what he might say later.
20235. Andonly - 9/11/2001 6:07:53 PM
It has begun. We are bombing Kabul.
20236. ronski - 9/11/2001 6:08:43 PM
Well that is interesting.
20237. Andonly - 9/11/2001 6:09:43 PM
Pelle: fuck yourself. Am I making myself clear?
20238. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:09:47 PM
CNN reports that the the explosions in Kabul seem to be indicative of cruise missiles.
20239. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:10:00 PM
Re. 20235 -
Who are 'we', precisely?
20240. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:11:12 PM
This is rich; the Taliban calling it state-sponsored terrorism.
20241. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:11:13 PM
It's on.
20242. ronski - 9/11/2001 6:12:07 PM
Has it been confirmed as actual retaliation? CNN is not saying so.
20243. ronski - 9/11/2001 6:12:28 PM
Nor are they saying it is surely from the U.S.
20244. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:13:16 PM
Who knows who "we" are, but it seems a bit too coincidental. I doubt Hatch et al, really think it is civil war in Afghanistan that just happened tonight.
20245. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:14:07 PM
Andrea Mitchell says her sources in the intelligence community tell her that it is NOT the US, but Afghan dissidents within Kabul.
20246. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:14:40 PM
They think it's an ammo dump that has been hit and no one is claiming it's the USA....
20247. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:15:37 PM
And of course, there is the old standby - no ready access between the passenger and pilot compartments between liftoff and landing enforced with secure bulkheads.
20248. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:20:15 PM
But, the dissidents have not attacked like that in years. This sort of attack within Kabul? These appear to be incoming.
20249. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:23:00 PM
It's messed up, Absensia. This isn't the end.
20250. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:24:40 PM
Now, if people will note, I've offered three real world solutions, any one alone of which would be efficacious in preventing such terrorist attacks as have happened this morning at the WTC/Pentagon.
20251. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:25:09 PM
Very true, mgleason. And that's what scares me.
And who knows if we will ever really know what or who happened.
20252. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:27:11 PM
, I've offered three real world solutions
And very sensible they were, concerned.
20253. mgleason - 9/11/2001 6:27:46 PM
The Beeb says that an Afghan opposition leader was attacked yesterday; the explosions could be timely retaliation, taking advantage of what must be general confusion.
Now the Solomon Bros. building has also collapsed in NY.
20254. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:27:47 PM
Thanks:)
20255. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 6:28:12 PM
Absensia, you haven't noticed, Afghanistan is already in a state of civil war. The leader of the opposition, Ahmed Shah Massud, was recently the victim of an assassination attempt. The theatre of operations for the civil war is Panjshir Valley, not far from Kabul itself.
Those explosions in Kabul likely have nothing to do with the USA.
20256. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:28:36 PM
My last was regarding 20252, of course.
20257. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:29:05 PM
At another forum I was reading, they are speculating that it's us attacking and that GW will announce it in his speech; they are saying that is why he was at Offet SAC base today...
20258. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 6:32:56 PM
I also would not assume those explosions in Kabul are by the US. What the hell would we be attacking? The Kabul Disinformation & Religiosity Building?
Any response by the US must, must, be measured and absolutely accurate as immediately afterwards the President must explain to the world towards whom the attack was made and on what grounds.
20259. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 6:34:18 PM
The President was at the SAC base because that it the very place deep within the mountains of Colorado where he would hole up in case of nuclear attack - the safest place on this planet.
20260. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 6:35:57 PM
Aren't those idiots in Kabul still threatening to hang eight foreigners, including two American women, for proselytizing?
Isn't that reason enough to level 'em?
20261. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:36:10 PM
Pseud...I have noticed a lot...Massud was reported as being killed by a car bomb...since when has the Talaban done that? And cruise missles, from within? You many be right but there have been no attacks on Kabul in years.
We shall see. Frankly, I am not taking anything "politicians" say. And, I hope you are right, and I am wrong.
20262. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:36:58 PM
Easy there, EC. Diversity, you know.
20263. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:39:14 PM
I know - warped sense of humor.
20264. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:40:07 PM
Me, I mean.
20265. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 6:43:29 PM
Concerned:
Yeah, but the US gov't is just itching for it to be bin Laden not just so they can take him out, but also as a solid pretext to get rid of the Taliban. They're first-rate nutjobs, and between grinding the country further into the dirt, victimizing their own people, and pissing off the neighbors, they're asking for it.
20266. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 6:44:25 PM
As for the warped sense of humor, obviously I'm in that boat too.
20267. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:45:44 PM
Anybody see this before?
Taliban slammed over bin Laden appointment
MOSCOW, Aug. 30 (UPI) -- Russia's Foreign Ministry on Thursday condemned the appointment of Saudi terrorism suspect Osama bin Laden as the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Afghanistan's ruling Taliban regime, the official RIA Novosti news agency reported.
Bin Laden's appointment confirmed that a center of international terrorism is being set up in Taliban-controlled territory, the ministry said in a statement.
"Pseudo-religious values are being used as a cover to prepare a bridgehead for expansion of militant extremism and separatism far beyond the region's borders," added the statement.
This month, Russian media quoted Pakistan's Nation daily as saying that the Taliban had named bin Laden commander of their troops. Afghanistan's civil war concerns the Kremlin as hundreds of Russian border guards monitor the Afghan-Tajik border and a potential spill of violence could plunge the whole region into chaos.
20268. concerned - 9/11/2001 6:47:26 PM
Moreover, the Taliban's aim to build an orthodox Islamic state has given rise to many Islamic extremist movements in the former Soviet republics in Central Asia. In recent years, Islamic insurgents from Afghanistan launched raids on Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
The Taliban's ongoing clashes with the Northern Alliance movement backing ousted President Burhanuddin Rabbani -- the leader of the government general recognized by international organizations -- have alerted Russia and its partners as arms smuggling, drug trafficking, kidnapping and other crimes have flourished along the Afghan-Tajik border.
On Thursday, Moscow also condemned the appointment of Juma Namangani as bin Laden's deputy. Namangani, an ethnic Uzbek, was liked to a number of raids on Kyrgyzstan's Batken district over the last three years. Namangani advocates creation of an Islamic state run by a regime similar to the Taliban's and spreading over Central Asia.
"Incorporation of the international terrorists' leaders into the ruling structures of the Taliban shows the need to take decisive measures to collectively counter global challenges that are put forward from the Taliban-controlled territory," said the statement.
-- Copyright 2001 by United Press International.
All rights reserved.
So, can we expect to see the reinstitution of good old Central Asian customs such as feeding decrepit oldsters to mastiffs, playing polo with human heads, etc.?
20269. Andonly - 9/11/2001 6:49:28 PM
Concerned: your 20239--yes, good question. I just heard on CNN that the explosions in Kabul were not US military action.
20270. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:50:00 PM
And, if that happened, Cartman, the US might be able to have a strong military base close to China.
20271. CalGal - 9/11/2001 6:52:47 PM
Jamie,
I missed that. I was struck by the people who thought Bush had caused this.
20272. judithathome - 9/11/2001 6:53:04 PM
Rumsfeld just categorically stated the explosions in Kabul were not from us.
20273. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 6:53:12 PM
Absensia:
I thought that was why we have Okinawa and Guam.
20274. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 6:57:10 PM
Eric,
Okinawa and Guam don't cover India and Pakistan.. The two recent Atomic powers with a potential of using it.
20275. Absensia - 9/11/2001 6:58:57 PM
EricCartman,
Can never have too many close bases, and isn't the Afghanistan location better?
20276. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:00:57 PM
The strategic position of Afghanistan is much more important with Russia, Iran, Pakistan, India, China and the oil bearing central asian republics in sight.
20277. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:04:28 PM
Khargosh:
Well, I was being somewhat facetious. Absensia implied that, since we need to "keep an eye" on China, that occupying Afghanistan might have some utility in that regard. But that's why we have Japan, Taiwan, and S. Korea in our back pocket.
Not that we'd ever screw up the nerve to actually do anything about China in the first place. Hell, everyone's too damned scared to even deny them the Olympics.
As for India and Pakistan, please. They can't even conquer each other, with or without nukes. India's best offense might well be encouraging its innumerable citizens to vote with their feet.
Now that you mention it, though, the acquisition of nukes by those two countries was also a huge lapse on the part of our $40 billion per year intelligence community.
20278. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:06:53 PM
Absensia:
Yes, I would think that having a military presence in Afghanistan would be better utilized by keeping an eye on our oil fields....er, uh, I mean the Azeri oil fields. Wouldn't want Ivan getting any bright ideas about the proposed pipeline to Ceyhan, now would we?
20279. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:07:12 PM
I hope we have not acted immediately, not out of some namby-pamby fear of upsetting the world's chieftains, but because it will be rushed and thus minimalist (fuel depot? Oh please), and at a time when those who may be responsible would best be able to assign the attack to rash judgment.
We should wait, have the case prepared, and then, in weeks, or even months, strike with when the time is opportune, we will have our brief to the world prepared, and the actions will be mammoth and unprecednted in the annals of retributive strikes.
In any fight, when you strike in anger, you lunge like a fool and rarely hit your mark. You may feel better, but you do little damage. But if you can know that your prey is coming down the street at 6:05 pm and you await around the corner with a 2x4, and a pre-printed statement demonstrating the evidence of the foul deeds of your enemy, it is a better end.
Patience. We are at war, but that doesn't mean we need act half-cocked.
20280. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:08:00 PM
If it's Bin Laden, and he's the Taliban's military chief, I say let's given them 48 hours to produce him in irons and surrender. If they don't, we can re-landscape the Pathan yurt disease.
20281. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:08:46 PM
Good point, Urkel. Let's wait until we're fully cocked.
20282. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:09:16 PM
Well, "keeping an eye" was a light way of putting it, but I think a military base in Afghanistan might be "just swell."
BTW, India is considering giving away a lot of cheap tvs to its people so they watch that at night, instead of procreating. CNN...all the news..all the time.
20283. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:09:24 PM
I can't believe it's us. If we're going to go off halfcocked, it will be to blow some country into an ash-heap, and to the extent that we think about that first, so much the better. But I can't believe that we'd rush to bomb a depot.
20284. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:11:29 PM
A depot is exactly what we'd rush to bomb. It has the trappings of doing something, but it is a harmless thing. Fortunately, I understand that Rumsfeld has stated that we have done no such thing.
Cart is correct. This is a job for a deliberative and full cock.
20285. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:12:23 PM
It wasn't us. I'm fairly sure that the Defense Department is telling the truth.
20286. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:12:41 PM
"Our oil fields" does have a certain ring to it. The Afghan rebels are now claiming they did the bombings. Good!
20287. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:13:18 PM
No, that's silly. We would never rush to bomb a depot after this kind of tragedy. Even were the military advisors asinine enough to suggest it, there isn't a politician in the world who would approve it.
20288. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:14:00 PM
Re. 20284 -
So, FU: are you a lover or a fighter?
20289. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:14:14 PM
How many weapons do you need to kill thousands of American civilians in about an hour?
Answer: None.
20290. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:14:45 PM
Cart is correct. This is a job for a deliberative and full cock.
Yes, and since I'm busy at the moment, I nominate Ron Jeremy for the job.(hyuck hyuck)
20291. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:16:02 PM
"We" have in the past.
20292. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:17:05 PM
Cart
The deeds of the Taliban might very well merit importation of Mr. Jeremy.
20293. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:17:08 PM
Depots have always been a prime target for attacks...all those arms and explosives just ready to go off.
20294. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:17:40 PM
And trains. Lots of trains.
20295. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:18:01 PM
Francis,
"We" have bombed a depot because of an assault on our shores that killed thousands of people? I must have missed that news cycle.
20296. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:18:10 PM
WTF is Ron Jeremy?
20297. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:19:33 PM
Cal
Apparently. So.
concerned
A porn legend with a cock the size of a baby food factory.
20298. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:20:01 PM
Sigh. That's not my point. I am merely saying that if the US has finally come to its senses and started to treat terrorism as an act of war, rather than as a criminal activity, they will not be rushing off to bomb a depot. Not as a response. As a tactical maneuver, as a quick way to stop some critical activity, fine. But not as a response.
20299. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:20:18 PM
Always the trains. If the trains don't leave on time, the country is ours.
Cal, I meant war in general, not this. And I hope it is not the US.
20300. judithathome - 9/11/2001 7:21:09 PM
Well, they haven't done that...have they? Donald Rumsfeld said we haven't so that's that.
20301. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:21:57 PM
If so, I shall be most depressed.
Francis,
I presume you were being sarcastic? So what does it matter if we've bombed a depot in the past as a response, if we are all agreed that the US government perceives this as exponentially worse?
20302. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:22:11 PM
Re. 20299 -
I'm glad to say that your hopes are not in vain.
20303. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:22:39 PM
A solid, prudent decision. Let us pick up the pieces, and pick our spot. Geraldo will stem the bloodlust in the interim.
Except for LucAce Brazi. Even I can't call him off.
20304. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:22:59 PM
Judith,
I know. But Francis was implying that the US could have done it, that it's the sort of thing they've done in the past.
20305. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:23:20 PM
Now, if were C*******, bombing the depot would be exactly the thing I'd expect.
20306. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:23:46 PM
Do we really need all this information from cabinet memebers? Probably, but who is listening?
20307. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:24:06 PM
But, thank god, GWB is not C********.
20308. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:25:49 PM
In 1965, the last time the Pentagon and the World Trade Center was decimated by hijacked planes, we responded immediately with a surgical strike on a fuel depot.
No lie.
20309. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:27:06 PM
Oh no, I spoke too soon, now members of the House are talking....poor Geraldo, he can never compete with this.
20310. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:28:20 PM
Nope, it really doesn't seem as if "we", meaning myself and the aforementioned Mr. Jeremy of course, are bombing Kabul after all. If it were "us", the city would be leveled by now. Better yet, "we" would be strafing the rural areas where bin Laden's training camps are located.
It's not us yet, but it soon will be. I disagree with Urkel that we will wait and methodically strike when the moment is perfect, weeks down the road. Amid the incessant media navel-gazing we all expect, an actual number will surface very soon. The body count. It will be enormous, and Americans will not want to be patient once they hear that number.
20311. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:31:06 PM
Re. 20310 -
True. Nothing remotely like that since Vietnam, wrt body count.
20312. mgleason - 9/11/2001 7:31:15 PM
I love to see these politicians chasing 'face time' after scurrying back from their safe houses.
20313. wonkers2 - 9/11/2001 7:31:36 PM
By the way Pelle where was your daddy during the war? Which side was he on? [WWII that is.]
20314. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:32:42 PM
Francis,
How many people died?
20315. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:34:30 PM
Eric,
I agree. If we're going to retaliate, it will be soon and my hope is any fussing is due to the severity of the attack.
It is possible that we won't retaliate at all, and treat it as a criminal matter.
20316. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:35:49 PM
Cartman
Every effort must be to waiting, to resisting the impulse for instant gratification. I agree that some public and political pressure will be brought to bear. But I have faith that the resilience of the nation, its enormous size and ability to "move on", and the three-card monty of the press, which sucks simple context out of the most unambiguous efforts, will give us that time.
And if we wait for the roaches to feel comfortable in alighting from their hovels, and if we prepare in such a manner as to murder every roach, and all the right roaches, and if our evidence of roach activity is unimpeachable, we will have strengthened the hand of American foreign policy -and we will have sated appetites for revenge for a much longer period of time.
For the roach will know that the hammer falls harder every day it is delayed.
Bin Laden planned his strike for some time, and look at how effective it ended up.
Thank you, and God bless you all.
20317. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:37:44 PM
Great. Urkel's road-testing his new speech while he runs for Prince George County dog-catcher. The mind wobbles.
20318. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:40:12 PM
Easy, you Chomskyite whatever-else pseudo calls you fucknut. Just because you can't wait until the popshot doesn't mean you have to ruin the movie for the rest of us.
20319. Absensia - 9/11/2001 7:40:21 PM
Hmmm, Madeline Albright agrees with FU.
20320. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:41:09 PM
Sue she does. I nailed her.
20321. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:42:33 PM
Bin Laden had years to prepare without public scrutiny--or, apparently, even covert scrutiny. He is not running a country in his spare time, nor is he dealing with a media and an outraged public that not only will want to know everything, but will openly discuss every option that comes to mind, nor is he dealing with experts who will comment on all the possibilities he has to consider and rate them in terms of effectivness so that his target can be prepared. Bin Laden can kill anyone of his people on a whim, much less for betrayal, Bush could only ever kill the occasional Texan for murder.
Exactly how is it that you consider these situations analogous?
20322. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:43:59 PM
You mean, Bin Laden and Bush aren't exactly analagous? Get out. That's incredible! I thought they were peas in a pod.
20323. ScottLoar - 9/11/2001 7:45:15 PM
Who gives a damn if Americans are impatient for retaliation after hearing the body count? It is the US military, intelligence services and administration who will act, not the body politic. And I don't believe they'll be impatient. No, contrary to the festering in this thread about impatience and looting and a general disregard for the general public that general public seems to be collected, angry but cool, and fully allowing the authorities time to clear this up and mark direction, nothwithstanding the stupid questions of some few newsreporters which often disgust the viewing public.
20324. MaxMacks - 9/11/2001 7:47:03 PM
just saw Bush on TV for first time.
this thing is WAY OVER HIS HEAD...
he looked like a deer caught in the HEADLIGHTS
of a truck at night....
20325. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:47:06 PM
Urkel:
But won't all this hoo-ha distract Bush from he really should be doing, besides improving his Crash Bandicoot scores -- annexing Mexico?
20326. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:47:32 PM
Scott
Well said, but don't denigrate the reporters. They are useful to delay and mute the more hasty tendencies of the public, as "Day of Terror" becomes "Aftermath of Terror: Day 34".
20327. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 7:48:12 PM
Chomskyite scum Cartman:
Armenia and Azerbaijan were at war during the first half of the 1990s. They are still officially at war.
The USA sided with Armenia, a commercially and economically worthless country, against Azerbaijan, a country which plays host to dozens of American multinationals prospecting for, and transporting, oil and gas in the Caspian Sea region. The US Congress imposed comprehensive sanctions on trade and aid to Azerbaijan.
This doesn't exactly sort with nincompoop Chomskyite worldview that US foreign policy is dictated by corporate interests, does it?
20328. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 7:48:53 PM
20277 Eric,
Well you and everybody else knows it very well that strategic positions are not acquired necessarily to defeat some country. Sometimes you have an apparent conflict of interests or an apparent enimity and sometimes just to keep an eye on the affairs and to let others know who's the boss. No matter Pakistan and India can "conquer" eachother or not, they still remain a nuclear flash point and an "eye" must be kept on them.....not to foget the others such as China, the central asia and Iran.
By the way I dont think Afghanistan can conquer USA either , now can she?
20329. CalGal - 9/11/2001 7:48:54 PM
Francis,
Hey, dude, you were the one who said: Bin Laden planned his strike for some time, and look at how effective it ended up.
as the reason why Bush should wait. So don't kvetch at me.
Scott,
I don't think it needs to be tomorrow. But for any number of reasons it should be soon. Not least of which is that the time in which Americans will be willing to do whatever it takes is fairly limited. We have a short attention span. I also think the possibility of the government's every option being openly assessed and discussed on air is entirely feasible.
20330. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:49:11 PM
Who gives a damn if Americans are impatient for retaliation after hearing the body count?
I'm sure Zogby is already vetting the poll results. Wait and watch, Loar. Soon as an official number comes out, there will be a demand for someone's head.
Unless, of course, Love Cruise can keep enough mouth-breathers pre-occupied....
20331. MaxMacks - 9/11/2001 7:49:33 PM
i never watch much TV.
reporters sound almost gleeful when there is some great calamity to talk about
mostly they make guesses and spread false rumors.
20332. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:49:39 PM
Eric
Not at all. If all goes to my recommendation, the pros will collect the evidence, select the day, gather the intelligence and recommend the retaliation. And Bush will assent, with his own addition of doubling the punch of that retaliation.
Collaborative government at its best.
20333. concerned - 9/11/2001 7:49:46 PM
RE. 20321 -
Calgal is obviously confusing GWB with her idol Clowntoon who had the occasional Arkansan offed, according to some.
20334. Andonly - 9/11/2001 7:50:11 PM
The Afghan Northern Alliance has claimed responsibility for the attack in Kabul.
If they did indeed have cruise missiles...that's interesting.
20335. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:51:50 PM
Cart
The last administration has made you cynical. One more crime to add.
Where is the carefree, boyish Cart?
Damn you, Bill Clinton! Damn you to hell!
20336. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:54:06 PM
Nattering douchebag Psuede-o:
Armenia and Azerbaijan were at war during the first half of the 1990s. They are still officially at war.
So are Russia and Japan, I understand. So what? What has been the recent state of the war? Not much, right?
The US Congress imposed comprehensive sanctions on trade and aid to Azerbaijan.
Ah. Cutting the lucrative Azeri-American market out of the loop. That'll teach 'em.
This doesn't exactly sort with nincompoop Chomskyite worldview that US foreign policy is dictated by corporate interests, does it?
Are you seriously proposing that that is not the usual case?
20337. arkymalarky - 9/11/2001 7:55:59 PM
Message # 20323
Hear hear.
20338. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 7:56:27 PM
Frances:
The last administration has made you cynical.
No. Blame "reality" TV. They've made me wait too long to watch Wheel of Fortune rejects get hunted and eaten by the Masai. I just can't waits no longer, I tells ya!
20339. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 7:56:35 PM
Isn't it natural that a nation would be more predisposed to nations with whom it has common corporate economic relations?
20340. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 7:58:16 PM
The popular belief is that the Afghan Northern Alliance is backed by the "West". If we believe that, it could be possible that this attack was under "orders" to see public response in case of a US retaliation attack. Remember that the president has still to speak in less than an hour now.
20341. mgleason - 9/11/2001 7:59:48 PM
Over 250 fire-fighters are being reported dead by their union, and 78 police missing.
20342. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:00:01 PM
Message # 20336
Armenia and Azerbaijan had an all-out, quite bloody war over Nagorno-Karabakh. A piece of shit war over a piece of shit territory, but it was a real war, unlike the rather peaceful "state of war" between Russia and Japan.
Ah. Cutting the lucrative Azeri-American market out of the loop. That'll teach 'em.
Azerbaijan contains more lucrative business opportunities for US multinational corporations than all of Central America and the Caribbean combined. Yet you should Chomskyite idiots have no problem believing that US policies in those countries are motivated by business interests.
Are you seriously proposing that [US foreign policy is not dictated by corporate interests]?
Of course. Suggesting? I have had long arguments with you in the past on this very question, in which I stated explicitly that US foreign policy is not so motivated. But then no country's interests are purely motivated by commercial considerations.
Hundreds of billions of dollars were spent in the Vietnam war to make Vietnam, a market of subsistence peasants, safe for American products?
The US now trades with Vietnam and China but doesn't with Cuba, which is doing business with everyone except the one country for whom business supposedly comes before all?
The USA supports Israel against the Arabs, even though siding with the Arabs clearly makes more sense economically than siding with Israel. Western Europe was not victimised by the Arab oil embargo. The USA was.
Then there's Armenia and Azerbaijan.
The dumbfuck Chomskyite view is fundamentally at variance with the facts and the norms of state behaviour.
20343. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:01:30 PM
Khabees
To see what "public response"? If the president ordered mass disembowling of those who lay on Afghan rugs, he would receive a favorable public response at this moment.
I find it unlikely that President Bush, who needs as much time with prepared text as possible, is waiting for the numbers on the bombing of a depot by the ANA, before he sets the nation's sail.
20344. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:02:19 PM
(drums fingers on table, waiting for the inevitable table demonstrating beyond a doubt how Amero-Azerio trade deficits have nearly quintupled since the dreaded trade sanctions, and how they account for nearly 3.141579% of Azerbaijan's GDP....)
20345. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:06:51 PM
Cartman's bravado becomes ever more pathetic as his Chomskyite world view is deconstructed and confuted before his eyes.
20346. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:08:21 PM
A piece of shit war over a piece of shit territory [Nagorno-Karabakh], but it was a real war, unlike the rather peaceful "state of war" between Russia and Japan.
Yes, but as you say, early 1990s. What has taken place recently, say, in the past five years?
Azerbaijan contains more lucrative business opportunities for US multinational corporations than all of Central America and the Caribbean combined.
True. Again though, what real effect have the trade sanctions had on the Azeri economy? Somewhere between slim and none, I'll wager. Maybe I missed it, but I sure as hell don't recall Chevron being told to pull up stakes and leave Baku in the hands of Gazprom.
I have had long arguments with you in the past on this very question, in which I stated explicitly that US foreign policy is not so motivated. But then no country's interests are purely motivated by commercial considerations.
Yes, and that's why I pointedly quantified it as usual. I agree that policies in Vietnam and Cuba have been motivated by more than mere commerce, but that doesn't mean those policies were merely pure misguided ideology, either.
20347. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:09:50 PM
Cartman's bravado becomes ever more pathetic as his Chomskyite world view is deconstructed and confuted before his eyes.
Well, ya got me there, cowboy.
20348. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:10:55 PM
Francis,
By public I didnt specifically mean the American public, I also included the other nations, The aliies, which some official( I don't remember who he was) mentioned and asked for Support and back ....now don't start saying that America doesnt care what others say and its not answerable to anybody or that the rest of the world doesn't matter. Despite America's position and the status, you can't exclude the importance of a response by the rest of the world in case of an attack.
20349. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:13:33 PM
Cartman, what difference does it make what has been happening since the ceasefire was declared? And what difference does it make what real effects the sanctions have had? The fact is, US policy was tilted against the interests of its own corporations.
20350. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:15:07 PM
If the USA had supported Azerbaijan, Chomsky and Chomtman would have known all about the US support for the evil Haider regime in Baku. But since the facts went against their prejudices, they were silent.
20351. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:15:31 PM
Haider Aliyev regime
20352. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:15:34 PM
Despite America's position and the status, you can't exclude the importance of a response by the rest of the world in case of an attack.
Well, the French have declared that they are behind us, so I feel safe in saying that we can now proceed with confidence and impunity.
20353. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:17:55 PM
Khabees
It is my understanding that under the short but barbaric reign of George W. Bush, the United States has become a unilateralist menace, uninterested and undeterred by the opinions of Swedes, Laotians, Macedonians, and others of their ilk.
While this view may be hyperbolic, I remain confident that the public reaction of the rest of the world is far down on the list of priorities for this Administration, at this time, and even if it were high on such a list, the use of an ANA attack on a fuel depot would be a poor vehicle to gauge international public opinion on American retribution.
20354. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:18:23 PM
Yeah, well, just wait until we have to fly over their airspace.
20355. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:19:55 PM
I yield the balance of my time to the right honourable Maria Gleason of Derby.
20356. Raskolnikov - 9/11/2001 8:20:10 PM
Cartman: Look at a map. Any serious effort against the likely suspects is going to require having some allies, and world sympathy, unless we want to stir up a larget hornet's nest. I hope GW will learn from his father about how to be a multilateralist.
20357. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:20:19 PM
Eric,
Good !! Keep us updated with the other countires.
And whom do you want to attack?...Bin laden ? You don't even know for sure where he is !!
20358. amax - 9/11/2001 8:23:01 PM
From a chomskyite friend:
Just writing to be sure everyone is safe and sane after the terrorist
attacks today. This is one of the most devastating and surreal events
I
have experienced. It seems that strange days are upon us.
In a local school here in Berkeley, one of our worker's 14-year old son
called and said all the kids were beating up the "Arab kids." In the
aftermath of this attack, it seems like there is great danger in the
days
ahead, and I sure hope that cool and thoughtful heads will prevail.
Take care everyone. Please let me know that you are all OK.
20359. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:23:38 PM
Rask
I do not believe world sympathy will be much of a factor, nor should it be. When we act, if we act as we should, many an innocent baby and mother will be incinerated. This will create sympathy for the targets, and the same hornets will always buzz about to the tut-tuts of Kofi Annan.
Your point as to strategic partnerships is better taken.
20360. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:23:40 PM
Many thanks, FU. I shall read the Wife of Bath's tale into the record.
20361. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:24:54 PM
As you please. Let the record reflect the Wife of Bath's tale, as read by the oh so right and oh so honourable Maria Gleason of Derby.
20362. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:25:06 PM
Rask,
You are right. For a formal attack, Us will need allies, there is no land access and US will need other countires' air space to fly over in case of an air attack
20363. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:26:21 PM
Cartman, what difference does it make what has been happening since the ceasefire was declared? And what difference does it make what real effects the sanctions have had? The fact is, US policy was tilted against the interests of its own corporations.
Um, it makes a big difference, goofball. On the first question, if hostilities have indeed ceased since the declaration of ceasefire, then the state of war, like Russia-Japan, is merely diplomatic semantics.
On the second question, if the sanctions had no teeth to them, or if there was little trade to sanction in the first place, then it's just more convenient semantics.
Look, we (the US) also lecture endlessly about how committed to human rights we are, yet we coddle and cater to China, we're a billion or so into Plan Colombia, even though the State Dept. has excoriated the gov't there for murdering its own citizens. Not to mention plenty of various CIA ops and policies over the last half-century that stand in stark contradiction to our stated policies.
Words mean little if actions don't jibe with them.
"Chomtman"....you make that one up all by yourself? Nice try. You can go on and on about Chomsky all you like, but I have told you this time and again -- I disagree with a great deal of what Chomsky has said in the past. It's mainly in his assessment of the mainstream media as spokestool for the money/power class that he spot on.
20364. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 8:26:34 PM
Why the towers collapsed 
Time for the President.
20366. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:32:05 PM
Message # 20363
Um, it makes a big difference, goofball. On the first question, if hostilities have indeed ceased since the declaration of ceasefire, then the state of war, like Russia-Japan, is merely diplomatic semantics. On the second question, if the sanctions had no teeth to them, or if there was little trade to sanction in the first place, then it's just more convenient semantics.
Hardly diplomatic semantics. The US embargo helped Armenia win the war.
Sanctions had plenty of teeth. Arms for Armenia, none for Azerbaijan (which was faced with a Russian embargo as well). Plenty of economic, food and other non-military aid flowing to Armenia, particularly with Armenian-Americans like Cher raising millions for Azerbaijan, while Azerbaijan could count only on Turkey for solid support abroad.
Look, we (the US) also lecture endlessly about how committed to human rights we are, yet we coddle and cater to China, we're a billion or so into Plan Colombia, even though the State Dept. has excoriated the gov't there for murdering its own citizens. Not to mention plenty of various CIA ops and policies over the last half-century that stand in stark contradiction to our stated policies. Words mean little if actions don't jibe with them.
That's very nice, but irrelevant to the corporate interests theory of foreign policy determination.
I disagree with a great deal of what Chomsky has said in the past. It's mainly in his assessment of the mainstream media as spokestool for the money/power class that he spot on.
In your babbling about death squads, corporate interests, and such stuff, you are Chomsky lite. Face it. Embrace it. Live with it.
20367. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:34:31 PM
Style point.
He flubbed a word and his tie is too blue.
Tim?
20368. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:35:24 PM
He is reading from a telepromptor.
20369. iiibbb - 9/11/2001 8:35:49 PM
20324. MaxMacks - 9/12/01 12:47:03 AM
just saw Bush on TV for first time.
this thing is WAY OVER HIS HEAD...
he looked like a deer caught in the HEADLIGHTS
of a truck at night....
Who wouldn't be in way over their head? Please tell me how president Gore would have solved this problem in 8 hrs or less?
20370. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:37:07 PM
In your babbling about death squads, corporate interests, and such stuff, you are Chomsky lite. Face it. Embrace it. Live with it.
Okey-fine. And we've never bankrolled or encouraged any death squads, nor have we ever made policy by placing money over people or moral principle. If you say so.
Isn't this about the time you begin lecturing me on how Chilean stadium executions were of utmost necessity in resuscitating a moribund copper market?
20371. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 8:40:08 PM
The point of contention is not whether the USA has supported death squads, or overthrown governments, or the like. Most of those things are undeniable. The question is whether the USA did those things in order to serve corporate interests.
Chilean stadium executions were necessary to rid the country of filthy vermin. Copper prices tanked in 1974 to one-third of the 1973 levels, anyway.
20372. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:40:54 PM
Brian Williams: "Style point. Bush blinks a great deal. Tim, how do you think such blinking will register with Bin Laden?"
Tim russert: "Well, Brian, if you blink at a teleprompter, will you blink at the moment of decision? That is a question that can only be answered in the coming days."
Brian Williams: "Thank you, Tim."
20373. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:43:11 PM
He said it again: The US will make no distinction between those who committed these acts and those who harbor them.
20374. Raskolnikov - 9/11/2001 8:44:02 PM
FU: Strategic partnerships are what I meant. I don't care any more about Belgian opinion than you do. But I do care about Pakistani and Arab opinion. The Gulf War was made a hell of a lot easier with support, or just neutrality, from key states.
Not that we should back off if we *can't* get that level of cooperation, but we should work hard to get it.
20375. Laura C - 9/11/2001 8:46:36 PM
He had me up until the 23rd Psalm.
20376. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:47:59 PM
Yeah, I expected a cue to the Battle Hymn of the Republic at that point.
20377. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:50:08 PM
I don't really care that much for Pakistani or Arab opinion. They will condemn what I hope to be a massive and indiscriminate retaliation. That said, I'm sure no one presumes that any administration, no matter how unilateralist, will cease diplomatic efforts in lieu of having its actions understood and, if possible, accepted. But to the extent you modulate your response based upon the vagaries of the either fanatical or fickle Arab world, you may as well abandon the type of response that is necessary.
I call for prudence in terms of timing. I do believe that we should wait until our case is strongest and our prey is more vulnerable.
But when the time comes, I agree with Ace that the actions must be like nothing the terrorists and those who harbor them have ever seen. And given that prerequisite, I am relatively sure that the most deft of diplomatic entreaties will not stem the condemnation of the Arab world.
20378. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:50:41 PM
The question is whether the USA did those things in order to serve corporate interests.
And the obvious answer is along the lines of "sometimes" or "frequently". Chomsky himself has never said "always". You can pant over the quantifiables all you like, my main beef has been that there has never been any real accountability.
Chilean stadium executions were necessary to rid the country of filthy vermin.
Yeah well, a couple of those "vermin" were fucking American citizens, and I resent the fact that the US gov't let that turd Pinochet get away with murdering Americans, as well as assassinating people in our fucking capital (Letelier).
Leaving aside your smarmy acceptance of people having electrodes attached to their nuts and being shot without trial, there is supposed to be the rule of law, and accountability. Either you believe that as a matter of principle, or a matter of convenience. If it's the latter, so what? Nothing to be proud of there.
Copper prices tanked in 1974 to one-third of the 1973 levels, anyway.
So what you're saying is that economic decisions didn't factor into that scenario, then?
20379. judithathome - 9/11/2001 8:52:08 PM
Well, style points aside, who feels better now that Bush has read?
20380. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:53:49 PM
I would have preferred if he personally tucked me in tonite, but I feel cozy.
20381. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:54:29 PM
Although, he tanked on the critical role of any chief executive.
Style points.
20382. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 8:54:38 PM
FU,
US must use Pakistani or Iranian air space to attack. Does that matter by any chance?
20383. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:54:54 PM
Urkel:
Maybe he'll let you drill in Jenna's protected wetlands....
20384. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:55:20 PM
I mean, style points aside, juditha?
As Brian Williams will tell you, and I'm sure you know, the game is style points.
20385. Absensia - 9/11/2001 8:55:33 PM
Not me, Judith.
20386. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 8:58:01 PM
Frances:
Knock Brian Williams all you want, but I'll always remember him crying when Di died. Made me feel like I'd lost a member of the family.
Until later, when I realized she was just some broad who had more money than brains, who I'd never thought much of in the first place....
20387. mgleason - 9/11/2001 8:58:55 PM
Well, call me naïve, but I'm glad to see him in DC and gladder still to hear a message of business as usual. I'm not going to criticize him at this point.
20388. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:59:06 PM
Khabees
You presume that our response will be solely by bomber. You also presume that we will request clearance of air space from Iran or Pakistan.
This calls for something more than the massive bombing, go home, hooray.
We soften them by missile, we bomb them, air clearance or no, and then we send in strike teams to shoot every dog still moving.
20389. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 8:59:24 PM
I concur with Francis and what I assume Ace would say as well re Arab opinion. The Egyptians, who, next to Israel, receive more American largesse than any other nation, were shouting "Bull's eye!" when the second jet smashed into the second tower.
As a minor aside, I've not heard any talk that this might be the work of Serbians. Will just throw that out there so on the off chance it is, I can say, "See, what did I tell you?" I don't think it was Serbian terrorists, though they have as much cause to do this as anyone and used to have a pretty good reputation for mayhem.
20390. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 8:59:54 PM
maria
Well I am.
The man has no style.
20391. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:01:08 PM
Serbian terrorists would have run the planes into each other.
20392. mgleason - 9/11/2001 9:01:21 PM
It's sort of endearing, FU. Really.
20393. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:02:50 PM
I didn't like his tie at all. This is a tragedy, not an Easter egg hunt.
20394. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:03:30 PM
Bush has no style, but business as usual is important.
The more we magnify this, the more we let the terrorists accomplish what they wanted. If they have any hint of rationality, we make it clear to them that they're not going to get any reaction from us but an ass-kicking.
Of course that does little good because they have all the rationality of a rabid dog.
Only one cure for a rabid dog.
20395. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 9:04:13 PM
Serbian terrorists would have run the planes into each other.
I thought that was Polish terrorists. Or am I thinking about the Polish terrorist who tried to blow up a bus, and burned his lips on the exhaust pipe?
20396. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:04:15 PM
Message # 20378
And the obvious answer is along the lines of "sometimes" or "frequently".
No, the only possible and coherent answer is: very rarely, if ever at all.
Yeah well, a couple of those "vermin" were fucking American citizens, and I resent the fact that the US gov't let that turd Pinochet get away with murdering Americans, as well as assassinating people in our fucking capital (Letelier).
I don't think the Yankistan government "let" Pinochet do anything. Pinochet was his own man. He did whatever he wanted.
Leaving aside your smarmy acceptance of people having electrodes attached to their nuts and being shot without trial....
I don't approve of that at all.
...there is supposed to be the rule of law, and accountability. Either you believe that as a matter of principle, or a matter of convenience.
Well, the Allende regime was an outlaw regime. Overthrowing him was a good thing.
So what you're saying is that economic decisions didn't factor into that scenario, then?
Zero.
20397. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:04:28 PM
Indy
Agreed. Move on. Start the memorials. Bury the dead. Bide.
Incinerate.
20398. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:09:56 PM
FU,
Don't you belong to the best democracy in the world??? WOW!!! I am impressed !! You don't think the violation of a country's air space means anything or is it your "right"? May be that plane disassembled by China was sent to prove your point of view too.
By the way, didn't USSR try to kill some dogs in those streets too?
I remind you, that Afghanistan has no land route available for a land attack unlike Iraq.
20399. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 9:13:01 PM
No, the only possible and coherent answer is: very rarely, if ever at all.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't think the Yankistan government "let" Pinochet do anything. Pinochet was his own man. He did whatever he wanted.
Nonsense. You don't get away with torturing/murdering American citizens (even lefty radicals), and blowing up a car in DC, without someone letting you. Pinochet should have been brought to heel for such actions, yet never was. Why do you think that is?
I don't approve of [people having electrodes attached to their nuts and being shot without trial] at all.
Right. You referred to them as "vermin" (in the throes of orgasmic polemicism, no doubt). Not demanding accountability for such actions is tantamount to acceptance, afaic.
Well, the Allende regime was an outlaw regime. Overthrowing him was a good thing.
Hmmm. Was Allende not democratically elected by the people of Chile? Maybe, maybe not -- who can tell with these backwater countries? But even if not, why is one coup d'état legitimate and the other not? Explain yourself, Pedro. Are these not economic considerations -- Allende was nationalizing the copper mines and fucking up commodities markets, yes?
20400. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:15:42 PM
Khabees
What is the point of being the top dog in the neighborhood if you can't pee on all the fire hydrants?
Actually, if you actually believe that any great nation would require the assent of Pakistan or Iran to bomb its enemies, it is clear that your sympathies are third-world, to the detriment of your understanding of realpolitik.
I have a question for you?
If you were the President of the United States, and it was proven that Bin laden was behind the attacks, and I could guarantee you that tomorrow, Bin Laden, every one of his associates, every one of their parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, and children, and every around them for an area of 200 yards would be eliminated by painful fiery death, would you authorize me to commit this act?
20401. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:16:11 PM
And the Nazis had a lot trouble handling Yugoslavian resistance, too, Khargosh. That fact didn't slow us down any.
Talk to our European friends about why something can't be done. You're dealing with Americans now.
20402. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:23:36 PM
Message # 20399
You don't get away with torturing/murdering American citizens (even lefty radicals), and blowing up a car in DC, without someone letting you. Pinochet should have been brought to heel for such actions, yet never was. Why do you think that is?
Pinochet didn't get prior permission from the Yankistan government. He just did what he did, and apparently the US government looked the other way. I don't think that's "letting" Pinochet do something.
Right. You referred to them as "vermin" (in the throes of orgasmic polemicism, no doubt). Not demanding accountability for such actions is tantamount to acceptance, afaic.
I don't mind if you demand accountability.
Was Allende not democratically elected by the people of Chile?
No.
Allende failed to win the majority vote in the general election, garnering only 36%. According to the Chilean constitution, it was then up to the Congress to select a winner. The Chilean Congress chose Allende. Got that? It was a legal selection.
But even if not, why is one coup d'état legitimate and the other not?
The same Congress, three years later, passed a resolution accusing Allende of "attempting to establish a totalitarian regime" in Chile and all kinds of violations of the constitution, and threatened to invoke its right to remove the president from office on the grounds of incompetence. I can post the full text of that resolution if you wish, whether in English or in Spanish. I think this resolution constitutes a de facto legal basis for the removal of that scum. The coup came two days later.
20403. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:23:52 PM
Are these not economic considerations -- Allende was nationalizing the copper mines and fucking up commodities markets, yes?
No, no, and no. You are among the most arse-ignorant fools I know.
Allende's predecessor, the US-backed Eduardo Frei of the Christian Democratic Party, had begun the nationalisation process by expropriating 50% of foreign-owned copper mines. Allende merely completed this process. And the Chilean congress voted for this expropriation unanimously. That means not only the leftist members of congress but also the US-backed right-wing and centrist members of Congress voted for the nationalisation.
20404. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:25:11 PM
FU,
I belived so far that America was the king of the jungle...a lion...Gawd!! i never thought you considered yourself just a "top dog". Grow up and know that you r not a dog...learn to behave like a lion.
as far as your question is concerned,
If I were the president of America, do you think I would listen to you or trust your information????
20405. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:27:45 PM
PE,
BBC International just had a fellow named Chowdry on, talking about U.S. support of Arab dictators and those alleged puppets' failure to observe the holy words of the Koran, and various crimes against Islamic people. Do you know who he is?
20406. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:28:53 PM
I asked you a question, and a fair one at that, as it is not proffered to test your loyalties, but your judgment. The information you have received is not from me. For purposes of the hypothetical, it is from the most unimpeachable source you can imagine. And for purposes of the hypothetical, the consequences set forth are certain.
Will you answer or equivocate further?
20407. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:31:05 PM
How come Francis never answers hypotheticals but always poses them?
To answer (as if there were any doubt): fry them all. Hell, I'd say the same thing if it were 20 square miles.
20408. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:31:10 PM
There must be a hundred people surnamed Chowdry, and I'm sure they're all a bit clammy.
20409. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:31:23 PM
FU,
I am the thirld world and I want to make it clear that I most strongly condemn what happened today and I am totally against terrorism of any kind. I also believe that those who are responsible should be brought to justice.....death of the worst kind. But that doesnt mean you take out your missiles and start firing on any country you wish without any evidence against a so far alleged terrorist.
20410. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:31:36 PM
FU, why would you want to wipe out relatives, children, et al?
20411. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:32:51 PM
Yes, Cal, I wondered about FU too. But..fry all of whom?
20412. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:33:11 PM
Clammy as in those harvested in a hot month during a red tide scare, actually.
20413. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:33:45 PM
There must be a hundred people surnamed Chowdry, and I'm sure they're all a bit clammy.
Google supports this, except hundred appears to be an underestimation.
20414. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:34:55 PM
I meant 100 million.
20415. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:35:25 PM
and even more named Chaudhry, and other variations.
20416. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:35:50 PM
Absensia
Because to the extent the retaliation is like nothing they have ever experienced, it advances American interests and sets the proper tone.
Khabees
You have answered a hypothetical that guarantees the evidence and identifies the perpetrators with certainty by questioning the evidence and the identification of the perpetrators. Your condemnation notwithstanding, you have answered with a resounding "no."
20417. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:35:59 PM
But that doesnt mean you take out your missiles and start firing on any country you wish without any evidence against a so far alleged terrorist.
Khabees: Whether or not Bin Laden is implicated in this act, it's high time to get rid of him.
20418. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:37:19 PM
I heard mention that the producer of Frasier was on one of the planes--David Angell, I think?
20419. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:37:31 PM
As for questions, if there is a question that someone would like me to answer, ask away. I will answer.
20420. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:37:39 PM
FU,
If I were the president and had the PROOF that its Laden and that HE is in whatever square of miles I would definitely go for it. But the point is you are not sure if it's Laden and you dont know where he is.
20421. Raskolnikov - 9/11/2001 9:38:02 PM
Pseudo: How viable is the Taliban's opposition at the moment? The US has a long track record of taking strong sides in civil wars to its strategic advantage. I am just wondering how possible that is in this case. Assuming that bin Laden is indeed responsible, and the Taliban refuses to cough him up - how vulnerable are they to being removed from power with US airstrikes coordinated with opposition ground attacks?
20422. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:38:08 PM
The producer of Frasier?
This is war.
20423. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:39:28 PM
Abs,
I wasn't thinking of the need to kill the relatives, as Francis was. I just consider them expendable; a reasonable cost. What was the word McVeigh used?
Besides, the kids might grow up and want vengeance. Best kill them early, I'd say.
Don't know if anyone mentioned this but the buildings collapsed because the steel melted, according to the structural engineers on Lehrer.
20424. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:40:05 PM
FU, how does that make us different than those terrorists we condemn. And, KK, said "alleged terrorists" and requires evidence. That is the basic constitutional basis of the United States as well. Not guilty until prove so.
IJ, we get rid of Bin Laden because it's time, even if he didn't do this? Should this be a free for all?
20425. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:40:22 PM
Khabees
Thank you for your answer. I am heartened that you deem that acts of such severity that the retlaiation must be massive, to the point of the massacre innocents, including family members, and including children.
20426. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:40:46 PM
Francis: I can't let an opening like that go by.
How frayed did you get today? Or did you remember Kipling's poem "If" and act upon it?
BTW, completely off-topic, if you haven't read any Walker Percy, you ought to.
20427. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 9:40:57 PM
[Pinochet] just did what he did, and apparently the US government looked the other way. I don't think that's "letting" Pinochet do something.
Ridiculous. That's the exact definition of letting someone get away with something.
I don't mind if you demand accountability.
Awful large of you, but that's not the point. You refer to murdered political dissidents as "vermin", yet you supposedly disapprove of their methods of extermination, or what? How fine a distinction are you trying to draw, or are you just typically indifferent to such things (except, of course, when it's your own flesh and blood being persecuted)?
20428. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 9:41:09 PM
The Northern Alliance is no longer a serious force in Afghanistan. It would have been driven out of Afghanistan, like all other opposition groups, by the Taliban had it not been for the fact that the Northern Alliance stronghold is the Panjshir Valley, which even Soviet gunships could not penetrate. The civil war persists only because the last opposition elements are holed up in a geographically isolated and remote region.
20429. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:42:08 PM
Cal, maybe their kids might want vengence, but does this mean, in order to make sure we "get them all" do we just nuke the country, and if so, which one?
20430. EricCartman - 9/11/2001 9:42:17 PM
Allende failed to win the majority vote in the general election, garnering only 36%. According to the Chilean constitution, it was then up to the Congress to select a winner. The Chilean Congress chose Allende. Got that? It was a legal selection.
Kinda like here last year, eh? Well then, it appears that Allende's ascension to power was at least constitutional and lawful, right? So how was his an "outlaw" regime?
The same Congress, three years later, passed a resolution accusing Allende of "attempting to establish a totalitarian regime" in Chile and all kinds of violations of the constitution, and threatened to invoke its right to remove the president from office on the grounds of incompetence....I think this resolution constitutes a de facto legal basis for the removal of that scum. The coup came two days later.
Well, in a country of law, the coup does not happen, now does it? Why wasn't the Chilean Congress not allowed to pass its resolution and legally remove Allende? Because Pinochet and his ilk not only were uncertain whether or not Allende would be removed at all, but also that even if he were removed, that they still wouldn't be in power.
That's what I'm trying to get at here, Pseudo. You'll happily trade one scumbag for another, secure in the certitude that you know what's best. I suggest that people have the right to determine their own fates, and that Allende and Pinochet both were scornful of that basic principle, albeit in different ways. That one was more amenable to capitalism than the other is irrelevant from a human rights perspective.
You are among the most arse-ignorant fools I know.
Well, you don't know me very well, plus I have no doubt that you know plenty of fools besides me.
20431. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:43:44 PM
Absensia
Because our response, as endorsed by the third-worlder Khabees, was in response to an act of aggression. Under your philosophy, Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima are the same. But of course, they are not.
Moreover, constitutional guarantees are for American citizens, and the rights afforded thereby are not afforded to foreign enemies, and those who harbor them.
20432. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:43:55 PM
That was pretty clear. Concrete will turn to dust under such heat. Steel will fail at 1500 degrees they have said, and if you watch the tape of the towers going you can see the steel literally bowing out.
When a plane crashed into the Empire State building in WW 2 (I was just talking to my Mom about that), there were deaths on the floors affected but not much serious damage to the essential structure. The plane was small and had a limited amount of fuel. These planes were headed to LA and were loaded. Flying bombs.
20433. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:44:08 PM
No, I didn't mean it that way. I just meant it in the same way as "Barbara Olson was on the plane". Plus, he's fairly famous as a quality TV producer--not many of them are recognizable by name.
As far as your penchant for avoiding hypotheticals, Francis, it is more that you insist on your own and refuse all others. I'll try and think of one, but I'm sure whenever I do you'll refuse. (g)
20434. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:44:47 PM
IJ, we get rid of Bin Laden because it's time, even if he didn't do this? Should this be a free for all?
Absensia: If I'm not mistaken, the US has a $5 million price tag on the man already.
Bottom line, the ante has been upped. Do we raise, call, or fold?
I think to respond with the same old, same old is a fold: we haven't met their raise. Nukes or something like that is upping the ante ourselves, and I'm not ready for that. But we sure have to do something to indicate that terrorists just aren't going to be tolerated like bad teeth anymore.
Time to pull them out.
20435. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:46:46 PM
Abs,
Along with Francis' answer, which I agree with, the hypothetical was provided as being absolutely certain.
But in general, I think we should start being a lot less tolerant of countries that host terrorists. It will also be interesting to see what happens the next time the UN tries to pull any shit with us.
20436. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:46:53 PM
Indy
That I can recall, I have read The Moviegoer and The Second Coming, and enjoyed them both. I don't read as much fiction as I should.
20437. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:47:06 PM
ronksi: Upthread (around 8:25 p.m.) I linked a pretty detailed description of the building's failure. Or you can track it down on Salon if you haven't seen it yet.
20438. christipeters - 9/11/2001 9:47:36 PM
I finally heard from my brother. His In-Laws are ok.
20439. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:48:46 PM
Christi
Good news.
Cal
What "shit" might the UN pull with us?
20440. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:48:48 PM
See!! that was exaclty what I meant in 20404.
If I were the president, I would never listen to you or belive the info you give me. I would double check about any possible children, women or any other family members.
20441. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:48:56 PM
Good news, Christi.
20442. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:50:33 PM
Khabees
Of course you would, but as I understood you in your prior answer, once you were certain, you would authorize the massacre of the children, women or any other family members.
20443. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:51:41 PM
The statements from the U.S. government are getting clearer. The U.S. is already "90 % certain" it is bin Laden. They will be going after him and the Taliban, but only after a PR campaign to convince the world that bin Laden is indeed the perp.
A local angle is that New Jersey has detained people in a car who may have been linked to the bombings, i.e., bin Laden supporters who were observers to the event. Stay tuned. They were stopped in Bergen County.
20444. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:51:48 PM
Francis,
I don't think it matters. It's been a bad year for warm and fuzzies between us and them already, so it won't take much.
Earlier you said that we shouldn't care if we are condemned for whatever retaliation we take. I agree. But what if the UN Security Council, or NATO, or whatever, tells us they don't want us doing anything extreme? Should we listen? And would you consider any such requests to be one sort of "shit"?
20445. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:52:00 PM
And that resolve is to be commended.
20446. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:52:25 PM
And as I understood, you wanted to "soften them with bombing and missles and then kill every dog that was still moving.
20447. ronski - 9/11/2001 9:53:17 PM
christi,
Good.
I on the other hand am hearing about more friends, relatives and co-workers who have not yet heard about their loved ones, and that does not sound at all good.
20448. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:53:54 PM
And what on earth is wrong with that sentiment? I mean, you say it like it's a bad thing.
20449. Absensia - 9/11/2001 9:54:26 PM
FU,
Consitutional guarantees are for all tried in the US, and many of the same are guaranteed by the World Court. No, my philosophy is not that, FU.
Stop with the pseudo legerdemain. Japan, the country bombed Pearl Harbor...the US retalitated.
But here...who do we bomb..if a terrorist slips into a country how do we prove that country is sheltering them? And do we bomb that country?
Cal: I agree...we need to change a lot of actions, and put the UN on notice.
Indy, there is still no proof about Bin Laden. Those who claim to know him say if he had been involved he would not have denied it this morning.
20450. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:54:54 PM
Obviously, that was for KK, not for Ronski. I'm sorry about that. I've been thinking about the kids at Marj's daycare whose parents haven't showed.
20451. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 9:55:48 PM
Cal
So the "shit" to which you refer is condemnation by the UN (a routine event, routinely ignored by the US), the UN Security Council (since I believe we are a permanent member of the Security Council, we would veto any condemnation emanating from that body) or from NATO (does NATO condemn unilateral acts by the United States?)
20452. wabbit - 9/11/2001 9:56:13 PM
News is reporting that a flight attendant on one of the planes gave 911 the seat number of one of the hijackers. Investigators are looking at someone in Florida. And at least one cellphone call has identified people alive in the rubble.
20453. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:56:35 PM
But here...who do we bomb..if a terrorist slips into a country how do we prove that country is sheltering them? And do we bomb that country?
But that logic has prevailed for some 20 years and here we are. I think its time to provide a lot more incentive for those countries to expel any terrorists they don't support.
20454. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 9:57:32 PM
Cal,
was 20448 meant for me ?
20455. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 9:58:13 PM
Francis: Glad you liked him. I thought of you because of the nostalgia for Southern aristocratic values and the quasi-lapsed Catholicism.
20456. mgleason - 9/11/2001 9:58:15 PM
I don't think I'm persuaded by those sorts of arguments regarding Bin Laden, Absensia. There is no believing or dealing with terrorists, and he is no 'alleged' terrorist, either.
20457. CalGal - 9/11/2001 9:59:32 PM
Francis,
Every UN action this year has spurred a ton of handwringing one way or the other--half the country wails about how we need to be well-behaved neighbors in the global community. That reaction certainly modulates our response, even if we do ignore much of it in the end. I am only saying that the handwringing is likely to be significantly diminished.
20458. christipeters - 9/11/2001 9:59:41 PM
I have always had sympathy for both sides of the Palestine/Israel problems. I have mourned for the innocent dead of both sides. My response to the dancing in the streets and cheering over today's tragedy is this:
All my sympathy for you is gone.
EAT MY NUKES
20459. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:00:17 PM
Absensia
"Japan, the country bombed Pearl Harbor...the US retalitated. But here...who do we bomb..if a terrorist slips into a country how do we prove that country is sheltering them? And do we bomb that country?"
We bomb the terrorists and those who harbor them, as explicated by our unstylish president this evening. We do so after evidence points to the terrorists and those who harbor them.
20460. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:01:16 PM
KK,
Yes, it was.
Christi,
While I'm sickened by it too, I wouldn't draw too many conclusions about it.
20461. christipeters - 9/11/2001 10:01:34 PM
FUCK the global community. Lets close the borders, gear up, and kick ass.
20462. mgleason - 9/11/2001 10:01:52 PM
Oh, the Pals are toast; Arafat knows it.
20463. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:02:28 PM
On that note, I bid you all goodnite to a bad day.
20464. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:02:37 PM
But, having a terrorist hiding in a country is a lot different that "sheltering or harboring him."
20465. christipeters - 9/11/2001 10:03:12 PM
CalGal - I am not drawing any conclusions from it about who is responsible for the attacks today. My anger over their joy is sufficient to make me wish to turn them into little smears on the pavement with no further provocation on their part.
20466. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:03:40 PM
Message # 20430: Kinda like here last year, eh?: Yes, exactly. I was going to say that Allende was no more elected than George Bush Jr. I was going to suggest, in fact, that Allende would have been rather like Nixon if Nixon had come to office in the manner of Bush.
Well then, it appears that Allende's ascension to power was at least constitutional and lawful, right? So how was his an "outlaw" regime?: You can come to power legally and constitutionally, but not act legally and constitutionally in office. Allende's administration was one long series of illegal, unconstitutional and extraconstitutional actions. The Chilean Congress, which put Allende in the presidency, thought so. The Chilean Supreme Court thought so. I can enumerate Allende's illegal actions, if you want.
Well, in a country of law, the coup does not happen, now does it?: Actually, since Allende was organising paramilitary groups, the army might have been necessary to remove him even after the Congress had legally impeached him.
Why wasn't the Chilean Congress not allowed to pass its resolution and legally remove Allende? Because Pinochet and his ilk not only were uncertain whether or not Allende would be removed at all...: I prefer that the Congress had been allowed to do so, but there was some uncertainty, as you speculate. There were two provisions in the constitution for removing a president, the one requiring a simple majority vote of congress (to remove a president on the grounds of medical or psychiatric disability) and the other requiring a 2/3 vote (for political incompetence). The Chileans are a very legalistic people, and there was a long debate about the appropriateness of invoking the medical competence clause. The opposition had the majority but not two-thirds.
20467. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:03:56 PM
That's what I'm trying to get at here, Pseudo. You'll happily trade one scumbag for another, secure in the certitude that you know what's best.....That one was more amenable to capitalism than the other is irrelevant from a human rights perspective.
Whatever. It's not relevant to the exchange about "corporate interests".
Ridiculous. That's the exact definition of letting someone get away with something.
Well, you said "let ____ do" certain things. That implies prior permission or encouragement. That didn't happen.
You refer to murdered political dissidents as "vermin", yet you supposedly disapprove of their methods of extermination, or what? How fine a distinction are you trying to draw, or are you just typically indifferent to such things (except, of course, when it's your own flesh and blood being persecuted)?
I can disapprove of people being killed extrajudicially and still think they are vermin. I want rapists and murderers executed, but I don't want them shot summarily and buried inside stadium walls.
20468. christipeters - 9/11/2001 10:04:31 PM
Now, since I have totally forgotten that I am a Lady, to say nothing of shucking off my bleeding heart liberalism. I think I'll sign off now and get ready for bed.
20469. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:04:33 PM
Indy, there is still no proof about Bin Laden. Those who claim to know him say if he had been involved he would not have denied it this morning.
Absensia: Please refer to my previous statement(s). I don't care whether he did this particular act or not. I've made it clear several times now that if one dog has been biting you every morning on your way to he mail box and then your child gets mauled by an unknown dog, there's nothing wrong in my eyes withs killing the first one while you find out who did the mauling.
20470. mgleason - 9/11/2001 10:04:36 PM
If a country permits known terrorists to operate within its borders, it is harboring them, as Afghanistan has harbored Bin Laden.
20471. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:04:56 PM
Christi,
Yeah, me too.
Abs,
Let them worry about that distinction for a while.
20472. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:05:19 PM
mgleason,
a few pictures of a turban wearing, beard sporting man with a gun doesnt prove he is a terrorist. We seem to base it all on some videos, etc. Ironically, there are muslims in several countries who say may believe bin Laden is really CIA and talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
20473. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:05:25 PM
Arafat has played his game, and lost.
20474. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:06:14 PM
Wabbit,
Good thinking on that flight attendant's part. I wonder if they all knew they were going to die. The plane crashes activate all my phobias, much more than the building destructions.
20475. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 10:06:46 PM
FU,
you called me a thirld worlder...comon man!! atleast say that on my face. You mention me as a thirld worlder in a post adressed to somebody else? I expect better than that from you, after all you just described yourself as the "top dog"
20476. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:07:56 PM
mgleason, and cal..now that I agree with. Christi, I think the "dancers" were a few idiots who did it for the cameras.
20477. mgleason - 9/11/2001 10:08:36 PM
Absensia,
Bin Laden has admitted terrorist acts against this country. If he's lying, then shame on him; I guess he'll learn his lesson.
20478. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:08:38 PM
Bin Laden and what's his name from the Hezbollah have no doubt been responsible for scores of American deaths over the years. I would not be surprised if the U.S. blasts the Taliban out of office for giving him sanctuary, even if they have done so somewhat reluctantly.
20479. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:09:45 PM
Well, Indy, if some dog bit my kid, I'd kill it on the spot.
20480. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:11:40 PM
As most of you know I am a rabid anti-communist but in what way are Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger not terrorists from the Vietnamese and Cambodian points of view and why can't the USA be considered harbouring these people?
20481. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:12:40 PM
True, Maria, but bin Laden as CIA creates an interesting senario, though probably more of a novel than truth.
20482. millhead - 9/11/2001 10:13:37 PM
"My anger over their joy is sufficient to make me wish to turn them into little smears on the pavement with no further provocation on their part."
Christi...enough of your psycho babble.
Take a step back and stop drinking the nuclear kool aid...if your children were taught from birth that the Israeli's and American's were evil and the scurge of the earth, they would be cheering too. Retaliating on the Earth's children is inconceivable to me. Let our leader's make appropriate and level headed decisions. And pray to whatever god, spirit or object that you pray to for PEACE...
20483. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:14:04 PM
and Indy, if some dog bit me once and ran, he wouldn't get a second bite.
20484. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:15:13 PM
Mill,
Sorry, but that shit doesn't fly. How often do you see people gloating and celebrating like that?
20485. millhead - 9/11/2001 10:15:16 PM
"As most of you know I am a rabid anti-communist but in what way are Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger not terrorists from the Vietnamese and Cambodian points of view and why can't the USA be considered harbouring these people?"
You are correct...they ARE terrorists. And Kissinger will be proved so on the world stage.
20486. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:15:40 PM
PE,
I think you might be surprised at the number of Americans who would offer no argument to your question about McNamara and co., from both the moderate left and the libertarian right.
20487. millhead - 9/11/2001 10:16:27 PM
come on...and you think that the children comprehend what truly has happened here...the children only know what is taught to them
20488. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:16:29 PM
PE,
They aren't terrorists, they were members of the US government. Therefore both Cambodia and Vietnam were welcome to declare war on us if that's what made them happy.
20489. mgleason - 9/11/2001 10:17:07 PM
Spare. Me.
20490. Absensia - 9/11/2001 10:18:36 PM
What I have been wondering about is the media coverage. Is it stirring things up too much? Would people throughout the world have different feelings about this if no TV? Would all those Congressmen and Senators have fought for TV time?
And what is going to happen here? Will people become xenophobic and attack muslims or those who "look" muslim, screaming "terrorist"? The facts of the US's treatment of it's Japanese citizens in World War II come to mind.
20491. Khabees Khargosh - 9/11/2001 10:20:24 PM
Cal, 20448
I know it's not the right time to say this because the events that took place today are by no means or any standards right. I am upset about it as much as any of you. But doesn't that catastrophe remind you of anything? Anything from Hiroshima to Iraq? Any dead children, women, innocent citizens, collapsing buildings?......sigh. I wish you could feel those children as humans too. I wish you could feel those corps as humans too.....I hate to say this but when people start "celebrating" someone's death, there is something deeply wrong behind it.
20492. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:20:50 PM
Has anyone heard from janjon?
20493. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:22:42 PM
SHIT. He hasn't been around recently and I forgot about him. I think I have an email address for him somewhere.
20494. transient1a - 9/11/2001 10:22:42 PM
A strange day!
We were supposed to be going by car from Los Angeles to San Francisco.
Ended up waiting 4 hours to give blood at the UCLA Medical Center.
The blood clinic was crowded. Several feet away, while on a cell phone, a United Airlines stewardess, collapsed sobbing. She had just discovered one of her friends -- another stewardess -- was dead.
20495. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:22:57 PM
If the communists in Vietnam or Cambodia had it within their power to take out Robert McNamara or Kissinger, they would have.
Regardless of whether you think we were wrong to have bombed those countries, that doesn't mean we have to bend over and take it from terrorists now.
Our ancestors stole everything from the Indians, for that matter, but if Indians started running around murdering white people I'd still fight back.
20496. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:23:32 PM
Khabees,
We are talking about the problem of selective compassion. Not feeling any compassion for people who are the "other."
In war, soldiers must be made to experience no compassion for the enemy. In situations less than outright war, it gets muddier.
20497. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:23:54 PM
Well, anticommunist as I am, I can't think of a particularly good why the USA had to drop enough bombs on Vietnam and Cambodia to kill over a million people.
What justified that? And why would hypothetical Vietnamese and Cambodian terrorists not be justified in retaliating against the USA if the USA is justified -- as I believe it is -- in retaliating against the perpetrators of the attacks in NY and DC?
Message # 20488
So it's just a question of power, not of moral justification?
20498. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:24:57 PM
Message # 20495
So it's all a question of power, not moral justification? America isn't justified morally in retaliating against today's terrorists? It's just a question of power?
20499. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:26:54 PM
Or is it all just a question of deterrence? You can't let terrorist acts stand, and so on?
20500. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:27:39 PM
Indy,
If you travel the Southwest, you will still today hear much from Anglos about how very nasty the Native Americans were to white people. In the East and Midwest, one no doubt heard those things about Indians all the time two centuries ago, making such things as the Trail of Tears possible.
20501. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:31:44 PM
KK,
I do feel for any children who die. It just isn't sufficient a reason to refrain from acting. Other than that, I didn't understand your post.
Abs,
Irv thinks that. I hope not. I don't think so, myself, but those Palestinians were a nasty sight.
PE,
I don't see any reason why the Vietnamese and Cambodians couldn't declare war on the US--except that we'd just have bombed them more ferociously. I thought the issue was harboring terrorists. Government officials aren't terrorists, are they?
Possibly 800 people killed at the Pentagon alone.
20502. millhead - 9/11/2001 10:32:12 PM
Cal,
Make no mistake...I was horrified to see the people celebrating the tragedy today. I know America will act swiftly and violently.
And though revenge is unavoidable, may it at least be sage. Let us grieve for the lost and the suffering, but pray that their blood cleanses us of our national complacency and our cavalier attitude towards our freedoms.
20503. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:32:55 PM
Catgut, you're not answering the question.
20504. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:34:32 PM
Note that all U.S. statements talk about defending freedom and democracy, while the voices from those few who are actually coming out in support of the terrorism, such as that Chowdry (Chaudry) character, are talking about the grievances of Muslims. No common ground even for the discussion. Remember how long it took to decide the shape of the table before the Vietnam talks took place. In this debate, we can't decide even that much.
20505. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:36:47 PM
The suggested response is a question of power and deterrence. These are matters best uninfluenced by moral outrage.
Could I distinguish the acts of Kissinger/McNamara during the Vietnam War from the acts of today? Certainly, and so could you. As Cal points out, the acts were commited after the formal declaration of hostilities, thus making Kissinger and McNamama potential though unlikely combatants; historical review of the bombing campaigns demonstrates that unlike today's acts, civilians were not targets; and, in fact, as we learned from the recent Bob Kerrey incident, military law prohibits killing civilians, and there are loads of American serviceman who spent time in jail as a result of that code.
But your point really is as follows: does a nation's history of morally reprehensible behavior divest it of the right to be morally outraged when it is the victim of morally reprehensible behavior?
I can only speak for myself in saying that this nation's egregious involvement in the slave trade and its long harboring of Cher did not diminish my moral outrage of today.
20506. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:38:54 PM
Gosh, he called me Catgut. It's been years.
I'm sorry, I might have misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking what the difference was between Kissinger and a terrorist--ie, the US was harboring terrorists? My answer is that since they aren't terrorists because they are in fact representatives of the country.
If you are asking why retaliate, then it is both deterrence and payment. I don't see anything wrong with that.
20507. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:39:29 PM
PE: How can you ask whether someone has a moral justification to retaliate in such a situation? What does "moral justification" mean to you?
BTW, if the Serbs had the capacity to retaliate against us and had, I would have thought they were morally justified to do so. When someone rains death on you, including civilians, while risking very little themselves, I think you are justified in trying to find a way to retaliate.
You may or may not be aware that I try to follow Christ, PE. But so far in this instance I have not yet felt anything moving me toward turning the other cheek.
20508. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:41:29 PM
Oops, scratch that "since".
20509. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:42:05 PM
Addendum to the Serbian situation: As Norman Schwartzkopf was saying a while ago, "The difference between us and these bastards is we try to minimize civilian casualties. They try to maximize them." (paraphrase)
20510. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:42:36 PM
historical review of the bombing campaigns demonstrates that unlike today's acts, civilians were not targets
Not deliberately targetted, but everyone knows that saturation bombing kills many many innocents. That still didn't stop anybody from engaging in saturation bombing even though there was no compelling reason to fight a war on such a scale.
Could I distinguish the acts of Kissinger/McNamara during the Vietnam War from the acts of today? Certainly, and so could you.
I don't think it's that different, morally, from what the planners of today's attacks.
But your point really is as follows: does a nation's history of morally reprehensible behavior divest it of the right to be morally outraged when it is the victim of morally reprehensible behavior?
That is not at all my point. The USA is right to be outraged, and right to retaliate. I was just wondering whether you thought it would also have been right for hypothetical Cambodian and Vietnamese terrorists in 1972 to have killed innocent Americans in the course of (say) bombing the Pentagon.
20511. transient1a - 9/11/2001 10:44:45 PM
pseudoerasmus,
Message # 20480
"As most of you know I am a rabid anti-communist but in what way are Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger not terrorists from the Vietnamese and Cambodian points of view and why can't the USA be considered harbouring these people?"
Despite your 'rabid' anti-communism or perhaps because of it --you do not seem to have grasped the nature of warfare.
What is the nature of your pseudopretzellated thinking that leads you to think that the eggs and the omelet should be able to peacefully coexist in some weird quantum state where both are equally accessible?
20512. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:44:46 PM
(1) I think the USA is justified in retaliating.
(2) I think the USA is right to feel morally outraged.
All of you who question what I think in these areas, are dealing with strawmen.
My question:
Would also it have been morally justified for hypothetical Cambodian and Vietnamese terrorists in 1972 to have killed innocent Americans in the course of (say) bombing the Pentagon?
20513. CalGal - 9/11/2001 10:45:20 PM
I was just wondering whether you thought it would also have been right for hypothetical Cambodian and Vietnamese terrorists in 1972 to have killed innocent Americans in the course of (say) bombing the Pentagon.
It would have been an act of war, of course, and we would have incinerated the country, but I think any country has the right to retaliate.
20514. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:46:40 PM
By the way, pseudo, you do differentiate between killing soldiers/VC and civilians? Otherwise, what right does the United States have in harboring veterans and survivors of the Battle of the Bulge?
I may be wrong but estimates of North Vietnamese civilians killed by the United States military in Vietnam ranges from 65,000 to 300,000.
20515. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:49:15 PM
Of course I recognise the distinction between combatants and civilians, except in situations of total war where there is no such distinction. The question then falls on whether the war should have been fought to begin with.
I have read that civilian deaths in Vietnam numbered as high as 1 million. but 1 million or 300 000, what's the difference.
20516. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 10:49:19 PM
Of course I recognise the distinction between combatants and civilians, except in situations of total war where there is no such distinction. The question then falls on whether the war should have been fought to begin with.
I have read that civilian deaths in Vietnam numbered as high as 1 million. but 1 million or 300 000, what's the difference.
20517. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:50:00 PM
pseudo
Yes. During the Vietnam War, it would have been, to my moral compass, morally correct for North Vietnamese to kill American civilians in their prosecution of the war.
What that has to do with today, I'm not sure. Given your thin "I don't think it's that different", I presume you are not sure either.
20518. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:50:55 PM
The difference between warfare and terrorism is that latter is directed primarily against civilians, while the former is primarily, strategically not. Lest we forget.
20519. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:51:59 PM
pseudo
The difference is 700,000 (or 935,000, if you accept the 65,000 figure). However, I now have a greater understanding as to your inability to see the difference of today's acts with civilian deaths in saturation bombing during declared war.
20520. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 10:53:18 PM
FU is spot-on in virtually everything he's been writing since the attacks.
Man, those attacks were mean motherfucking terror successes. If this is Bin Laden or something like him, then we are up against something similar to what happened to Israel with the Hizbullah, in Lebanon: they turned from primitive doo-dahs to sophisticated commando fighters with the ability to plan and successfully execute very intricate operations.
Money (from Iran, in the Hizbullah's case) seems to buy sophistication.
Btw, I expect the Pal leadership will try to make sure there are no more celebrations in the streets -though I'm not sure the people will comply. Arafat knows how to pretend he's ashen faced with grief (probably smeared some gray makeup on) but I'm sure he has a boner under his uniform. He lives for stuff like this. This is a great day for terrorists worldwide, and Arafat is the best there is in that field.
20521. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:53:25 PM
PE (20512): I think I answered that re the Serbs. If you want to get specific about Cambodia and Vietnam, I'd say their action would be less morally justifiable but not entirely without merit.
They had the capacity to retaliate against our military presence in their own country and retaliation there would have been more effective in achieving their aims than terrorism. (And of course many people in this country were actively against the war, which also weakens the justification for an attack on the homefront.)
20522. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 10:55:31 PM
This story was linked on Free Republic
I assume UPI is still a credible news source.
20523. Francis Urquhart - 9/11/2001 10:56:00 PM
As Rustler has appeared with appropriate honors for my analyses, I am persuaded that competent relief has arrived.
Adios.
20524. ronski - 9/11/2001 10:57:47 PM
Indy,
You assume too much here.
20525. sakonige - 9/11/2001 10:59:52 PM
Boy, the more of this stuff I read, the less I regret the loss of thousands of "American" lives.
20526. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:00:18 PM
Urquhart's and Jones's attempts to portray it otherwise notwithstanding, I do understand there is a difference in intention between saturation bombing and terrorist attacks. But intention becomes irrelevant when there is foreknowledge. Everyone knows saturation bombing, of the kind carried out in the Vietnam War, results in thousands and thousands of innocent deaths. And when you have foreknowledge of such actions in a war with no clear aim or justification, then I think the action takes on, shall we say, a certain terroristic flavour.
Jones, you keep talking about capability, which is irrelevant to my point.
20527. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:01:25 PM
Man, those attacks were mean motherfucking terror successes.
They truly were. Fucking brilliant.
Indy--he had to have been planning this for years, not two weeks.
20528. Indiana Jones - 9/11/2001 11:01:40 PM
Seriously, ronski? UPI is no good anymore? I thought the facts didn't sound that outlandish.
Well, anyway, I haven't gotten anything done today and no sleep last night. So quoting bad news sources and making more typos means I should probably hang it up for this evening.
May a better dawn await us.
20529. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:03:52 PM
PE,
I thought that terrorists weren't associated with a country. Is Pol Pot a terrorist?
So could someone make the argument that the US's act in Vietnam were terrible and worth of comparison with this? I'm sure they could--I wouldn't agree, but then I'm not Vietnamese. But the US acted as a country, ergo it couldn't be a terrorist act.
20530. ronski - 9/11/2001 11:05:29 PM
I would just at this point take anyting on UPI with a large grain of salt. They have a very particular agenda at the top.
20531. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:06:56 PM
Boy, there were a lot of cellphones being used. A San Francisco resident called his aunt and mother to tell them there were three hijackers and that he loved them.
20532. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:07:20 PM
Calgal, why do you post remarks at all? Why don't you just post "definitional" and be done with it?
20533. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:11:07 PM
PE,
Because anything I can do to keep you annoyed and cranky is a gift to online society. You're cute when you're pissed.
I already answered your original question, didn't you see? Yes, Vietnam would be morally justified in bombing the shit out of the US. It really doesn't much matter to me whether the actions are equivalent or not. I think any country has the right to make war against whoever they perceive to be an aggressor.
So if that's all you were looking for, I provided it already.
20534. ronski - 9/11/2001 11:12:32 PM
The New Jersey report was that a truck full of explosives was headed towards the George Washington Bridge, which I sometimes take.
My partner has just gotten home from his newspaper.
I am a very fortunate man. Bye for now.
20535. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:16:34 PM
Well, given all the moral rhetoric on display here, Calgal's and FU's relativism seems a bit implausible.
Again, I'm not saying that the USA isn't justified in retaliating. I'm not saying that the USA hasn't the right to be morally outraged. It is justified and it ought to be outraged.
But the USA has also killed hundreds of thousands of people with little or no justification.
20536. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 11:17:41 PM
If any of these terrorists gets his hands on nuclear weapons (and they will, eventually) does anyone think they would hesitate in killing 10 or 100 million Americans?
Answer: maybe, if they thought that by hesitating they would increase the number of people killed or make their deaths more agonizing.
Kissinger and McNamara had their hands on weapons that could have killed millions and didn't even think about using them.
Really, people, get a grip on reality and yourselves. Can Timothy McVeigh be compared to, say, Janet Reno (even if you hate her with great pinko fervor)? There is something wrong with questions like pe's.
War between countries is one thing. An individual or group that lives in hiding trying to kill as many people in a certain country as possible - and destroy the symbols of their culture as well -because they hate their very essence and being is so different that there is no room for the comparison.
A comparable flipside situation to this (if this is the work of Bin Laden) would be this:
(a) the US allows Western-supremacist groups (not that there are such things that I know of) within it to burgeon and prosper and does nothing to curb them.
(b) the US allows these groups to buy weapons and train men for dastardly acts against Arabs and other nonbelievers.
(c) one of these groups goes and crashes a explosive-laden plane into the Rock of the Ka'aba in Mecca during the Hajj, setting off a stampede and destroying the black stone, thus destroying a symbol of Islam and killing tens of thousands.
That would be comparable. Not Kissinger's or McNamara's policies in the course of a brutal proxy war with the Soviet Union (how nice was the SU during that war? How can you defeat a power like the SU if you are always trying to be nice and play by the rules?).
20537. tiggeriffic - 9/11/2001 11:19:14 PM
Can I just say goodnight and God bless us all .... its been a long and tragic day..... and tomorrow we face the new world we have been left with...
20538. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:20:23 PM
FU is the moralist; I don't think I've mentioned morality per se. As for my being a relativist, yes, certainly, in most issues involving countries and politics I'm guilty as charged.
I do see a distinction between killing people in a war, or even "police action", and doing a sneak attack like today, so I don't grant you the equivalency. But it wouldn't change my opinion if I did.
20539. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:23:05 PM
I think the distinction between states and individuals is mostly legalistic.
There is no one more fanatically anti-Soviet/anti-communist than me in the Mote. No one. And I would accept Rustler's 20536 if the Vietnam war, fought on that scale, actually had some point and actually advanced the Cold war against the Soviets. But it didn't.
20540. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:23:06 PM
Goodnight, Tigger.
The story about the truck with explosives is still out there; has anyone seen a link?
God, Fox has a picture of a person caught midfall.
20541. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:25:24 PM
PE,
I think the distinction between states and individuals is mostly legalistic.
I don't. But it explains your question.
You seem to be judging a country's actions based on their effectiveness after the fact.
20542. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:27:22 PM
You seem to be judging a country's actions based on their effectiveness after the fact.
??? I thought I was judging the justifiability of state actions.
20543. mgleason - 9/11/2001 11:29:55 PM
The man mentioned earlier who appeared on the Beeb is Anjem Choudary from Al-Muhajiroun.
20544. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:30:09 PM
Boy, the more of this stuff I read, the less I regret the loss of thousands of "American" lives.
The fact that you don't regret the loss of thousands of lives says much more about your moral defects than it does about any "stuff" you read.
20545. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:30:50 PM
Okay, the justifiability of the state actions. But you are basing it on effectiveness of the actions after the fact, as well on whether or not you thought their reasons "had some point".
I'm not complaining, mind you, but if that's what you're up to, how does that make you any different from Cartman?
20546. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:31:36 PM
It says more about my opinion of most Americans.
20547. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:32:21 PM
I think the distinction between states and individuals is mostly legalistic.
Well, duh!
The difference between a cop and a bandit is legalistic too. It is, however, a very good moral and practical distinction, as well as being one of legalism.
20548. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:34:11 PM
It says more about my opinion of most Americans.
Again, this is more a reflection on your defects than on Americans.
20549. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:34:21 PM
Message # 20545: I'm not sure what you mean by "effectiveness of the actions after the fact".
I'm not complaining, mind you, but if that's what you're up to, how does that make you any different from Cartman?
An enormous difference. I don't think US actions abroad are regularly bad; in fact I think they are mostly neutral or for the good. And even when they are bad I don't think they're done to advance the interests of multinational corporations, as many left-wingers do.
20550. Absensia - 9/11/2001 11:35:34 PM
Someone at the NYC news conference on CNN says a van was stopped, people arrested, but no explosives and not on GW bridge.
20551. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:36:03 PM
Message # 20547
The point was that the distinction is legalistic and practical, but this distinction has little moral consequence. After all, "countries" don't carry out policies, individuals carry them out in the name of countries.
20552. Absensia - 9/11/2001 11:36:38 PM
And trapped survivors are making cell phone calls...some to relatives as far as Seattle.
20553. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:40:37 PM
20548. Rama -
i If you are asking why retaliate, then it is both deterrence and payment. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I don't see anything particularly unfortunate in someone like this getting flattened on Manhattan.
20554. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:40:50 PM
The point was that the distinction is legalistic and practical, but this distinction has little moral consequence.
If this were true, then the decision of a mob would have the same moral weight as that of a court.
20555. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:41:25 PM
oops, Guardian format.
20556. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:41:38 PM
You beat me to it, ABs.
PE,
Oh, I see. You don't do it all the time and you vary your reasons based on what you think is relevant, rather than the same old template. Okay.
It's not that I don't judge a country's actions; I do. But my judgment of them is separate from whether or not I think they have the right to act in their own perceived best interest. Which, I believe, is relativism right down the line.
There's no incompatibility in my support for Vietnam's hypothetical bombings and my support for turning Bin Laden & Co's world into an ashheap.
20557. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:43:12 PM
And trapped survivors are making cell phone calls...some to relatives as far as Seattle.
Gruesome. That's going to magnify the suffering.
20558. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:44:06 PM
Message # 20554: Well, then, you must believe that military actions of a state against an enemy must be tantamount to the actions of a mob, since no court usually judges the enemy before the action is taken.
20559. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:44:11 PM
Yeah, let's nuke PE's family, while were at it.
20560. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:44:27 PM
I don't see anything particularly unfortunate in someone like this getting flattened on Manhattan.
I do not find a catalogue of your disregard for human life to be indicative of anything other than your lack of moral discernment, of which I am already convinced.
20561. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:46:19 PM
Message # 20556
Oh, I see. You don't do it all the time and you vary your reasons based on what you think is relevant, rather than the same old template. Okay.
I have no idea what you are saying above.
It's not that I don't judge a country's actions; I do. But my judgment of them is separate from whether or not I think they have the right to act in their own perceived best interest. Which, I believe, is relativism right down the line. There's no incompatibility in my support for Vietnam's hypothetical bombings and my support for turning Bin Laden & Co's world into an ashheap.
Okay. You can go away. No further need to talk to you.
20562. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:47:17 PM
Phew. It was exhausting.
20563. Absensia - 9/11/2001 11:48:01 PM
I think cell phones may help save many. They were rare during the Oklahoma bombings...perhaps these calls will help locate people.
20564. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:48:01 PM
20560. Rama -
Well, we all know how justifiable retaliation goes. It goes *boom!*
20565. Rama - 9/11/2001 11:48:43 PM
Well, then, you must believe that military actions of a state against an enemy must be tantamount to the actions of a mob, since no court usually judges the enemy before the action is taken.
That doesn't follow at all. Nations generally take military action after their enemy has taken some action, bur courts are quite willing to issue restraining orders against actions not yet taken. At any rate, that is quite unrelated to the fact that there is a valid moral distinction between the actions of the state and the actions of individuals.
20566. Absensia - 9/11/2001 11:50:11 PM
I predict the number of cell/mobile phones will go up and the number of visas granted by the US will go down...big time.
20567. sakonige - 9/11/2001 11:55:08 PM
At any rate, that is quite unrelated to the fact that there is a valid moral distinction between the actions of the state and the actions of individuals.
I like the way you are trying to impose a dress code on warfare, as if anyone who can't afford jets and uniforms has no right to respond to attacks made on them.
20568. RustlerPike - 9/11/2001 11:55:58 PM
Amazing new amateur footage on CNN of the first plane. One realizes this was not just a 'tragedy' - but a brutal attack. Those planes just brutally rammed into those buildings.
20569. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:56:18 PM
I was thinking about visas this afternoon. Even thinking about how we were talking about amnesty for Mexicans could change--not that there is any relationship, but we might get a lot more unfriendly.
Scott was right about the knives.
20570. CalGal - 9/11/2001 11:57:18 PM
Yes, I saw that footage, too. It was awful.
I have trouble calling it a tragedy; a tragedy always seems to imply a mistake. The planning here was just incredible.
20571. pseudoerasmus - 9/11/2001 11:59:19 PM
Message # 20565
That doesn't follow at all. Nations generally take military action after their enemy has taken some action, bur courts are quite willing to issue restraining orders against actions not yet taken.
I don't see the relevance of your remarks. I agree there is a moral difference between the behaviour of a court and the behaviour of a mob. I don't agree that there is a necessary moral difference between state actions and individual actions. Nation-states undertaking military actions are not behaving like courts (nor should they be so acting).
20572. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:00:32 AM
That NY press conference was so sad. The fire chief was devastated.
Even a tough cookie like Pike - who never cried, even as a baby - was holding back tears.
20573. Åse - 9/12/2001 12:00:46 AM
Yes, tragedy seems just wrong.
20574. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:02:07 AM
I wonder what it is that makes you so unconscionably violent, sakonige. If I were an American I would be threatening your life by now.
20575. Absensia - 9/12/2001 12:05:10 AM
Cal,
Yes there will be, I think, a tightening of visas from the Middle East and the Subcontinent. The US has thousands of students from those countries, all paying out of state tuition, and helping the economy. Likewise many doctors from medical schools there come here for an additional residency where more docs are sorely needed. That is just the tip of the iceburg, but I know you know what I mean.
20576. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:05:12 AM
I don't think rescuers have ever taken such a hit. They always expect to risk their lives, but no one could have anticipated the buildings melting.
The count of firefighters missing is up past 300.
20577. sakonige - 9/12/2001 12:13:38 AM
20574. RustlerPike -
Hilariously ironic post.
20578. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:16:21 AM
I think people like you, sakonige, should really shut up with your anti-US emotions for at least a month. Americans are shocked, and when that is over they will be in pain, and then they will heal. People have the right to go through that process, to deal with their pain and collect their thoughts now: you have no right to interfere with that healing process by hurling accusations at people who have just been shot.
20579. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:22:39 AM
Abs,
Naw. It is an entirely appropriate reaction. Right now, anything that causes the rest of the world to suffer and remember how much they rely on us is a good thing.
20580. mgleason - 9/12/2001 12:25:06 AM
Former CIA director James Woolsey is talking about the possibility of Iraqi involvement, perhaps backing Bin Laden. Interesting speculation.
20581. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:25:33 AM
This thing you are doing here - twisting your blade in the psychological gashes made by those planes - is exactly what the Arab Members of Knesset do to us after every terror attack. They use our democracy and openness against us and we fools let them.
An Israeli entering Palestinian territory is killed immediately (if he is lucky). But Palestinians mill about Israel freely, and Arabs get to sit in the Knesset and voice support for our enemies as we bury our dead.
Same goes for you in this forum: if I were posting on an Arab forum and voiced some kind of support for, say, a US action against Saddam, I would simply be banned from the forum instantaneously.
20582. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:26:26 AM
(my last post was for Sakkonige)
20583. joezan - 9/12/2001 12:27:32 AM
I distinctly remember, not that long ago (maybe just after the embassy bombings?), a pundits' discussion on TV which centered on the horrendous terrorism possibilities when you have an overabundance (as in the Arab world) of young fanatics willing to give their lives for their cause.
One thing that was specifically mentioned was the ease with which a group of such people could commandeer a plane and use it as a bomb. One target specifically mentioned was the White House.
I mean...what can really be done about this, short of armed undercover agents on every commercial flight?
20584. sakonige - 9/12/2001 12:29:02 AM
Gee, RustlerPike. What a sensitive guy you are under all that bloodthirsty warmongering.
20585. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:30:57 AM
Well, for starters, cockpits are going to be entirely different. Count on that.
Also, I don't think it will ever again be an easy matter for terrorists to commandeer a plane with only knives--and it was their reliance on knives that allowed them to evade security. They were counting on the passengers being compliant.
So it will become a lot tougher.
20586. Absensia - 9/12/2001 12:32:45 AM
Cal,
What I meant, and wasn't clear enough, was that it will cause a catch22...I think the US will react in ways that will also hurt the economy, but may have no choice, at least for awhile.
20587. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:35:32 AM
Abs,
Gruesome as it sounds, this disaster may not hurt the economy. It will grant immediate keys to the "lockbox" and spur a ton of government spending. And reports are that the dollar has plummeted, which was just yesterday considered a desirable thing.
God, do we need to see this thing from yet another different angle?
20588. sakonige - 9/12/2001 12:36:24 AM
heh. Someone on CNN just pointed out the likelihood that a plane will be flown into Ariel Sharon's residence.
20589. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 12:37:28 AM
Message # 20581: How true. Soon after Intifada II began, I posted some remarks in a forum controlled by a Palestinian. She deleted half my messages, but I reposted some of them several times and she gave up. You can see it here. Rustler would really really like my remarks. Several Arabs accused me of all manner of diabolisms.
20590. HollyW - 9/12/2001 12:39:55 AM
Hi. I'm home from work. Is this the right place to say this...?
A doctor from my hospital was on one of the planes that crashed into the WTC. Also the husband of one of our nurses.
20591. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 12:41:07 AM
That link is not right. here.
20592. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:44:20 AM
PE--wow. That's amazing.
20593. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:45:17 AM
The first link worked fine, PE.
Holly,
Oh, no. I'm sorry.
20594. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:47:27 AM
Pe: so you get a kick out of irritating both sides of this conflict? I'll have to follow that link later.
Is there a whole subculture here, of people with too much time on their hands living in dozens of web fora simultaneously?
In any case - the fact that the third plane was not shot down before it reached the Pentagon, an hour after the NY attacks, is a serious air defense snafu.
20595. Absensia - 9/12/2001 12:47:40 AM
Holly,
I am very sorry to hear that.
20596. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:49:05 AM
RP,
How could they shoot it down? It wasn't until the third one that they realized what was going on.
20597. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:50:47 AM
Hairyfat put on a wonderful show of grief on CNN just now. Everyone seems to be buying it. No more pictures of jubilant Pals.
Are you buying it, everyone?
20598. ronski - 9/12/2001 12:51:13 AM
The link is amazing. It is astonishing, the depravity of fundamentalists everywhere.
20599. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 12:53:20 AM
Cal:
They shoulda had it figgered out by the second, if not the first. These people are paid to expect stuff like this.
I believe Israel shot down a Libyan airliner in 1973 or 1967 because it suspected it was en route to do something like this.
20600. joezan - 9/12/2001 12:53:50 AM
Pike:
I didn't buy it when I saw the idiots dancing in the streets earlier, and I sure don't buy it now.
20601. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:54:14 AM
RP,
Actually yes, I do buy it. I'm not going to argue about it because it's just my gut. But he looked horrified--undoubtedly in no small part because he'd seen the disgusting reaction of Palestinians and knew it was on him to do what he could to offset it.
20602. CalGal - 9/12/2001 12:55:43 AM
RP,
But that's because they are Israel. We're not. And the day that we become like Israel, the terrorists win.
No doubt we'll be more vigilant, but I don't think anyone could have foreseen this. Remember that the Pentagon is very close to the National Airport.
20603. mgleason - 9/12/2001 12:57:47 AM
I was watching NBC when the third plane hit the Pentagon, and they'd been talking about it being a terrorist act for some time.
And I do believe in Arafat's grief; he's thinking that the jig might very well be up.
20604. mgleason - 9/12/2001 1:03:50 AM
Oh, man, Peter Jennings is hinting that he's not satisfied with the Pentagon's denial that it shot down the plane in PA. He's calling it an 'open question.'
20605. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:05:25 AM
My local news channel is reporting that one of the cell phone callers on the Pittsburgh plane (which was coming to SF) said that he and a couple other people were going to try something. There is the suggestion that the passengers actions forced the terrorists to bring the plane down early.
20606. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:06:30 AM
Well: the upside of all this is that we ahve agreement between Jewish and Muslim fanatics on one, hyper-important point:
this psuedoerasmus person is truly a disgrace to all people who believe in the power and love of one God.
(from that Salon forum).
20607. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 1:09:08 AM
Message # 20594
Pe: so you get a kick out of irritating both sides of this conflict? I'll have to follow that link later.
I almost never take sides completely. I always see something wrong with both.
Is there a whole subculture here, of people with too much time on their hands living in dozens of web fora simultaneously?
I switch from one forum to another, but I only post in one or two at a time. Notice I haven't posted in the Mote for a long time.
20608. glendajean - 9/12/2001 1:10:53 AM
The latest Washington Post is reporting that the plane that hit the Pentagon was first aiming directly at the White House and then took an expertly performed short right turn to the Pentagon. (Perhaps a ploy, thinking that the 4th plane would actually do the job).
The Post is also reporting that the people on the plane were forced to huddle in the back of the plane and told to call loved ones and let them know of their death.
20609. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 1:11:50 AM
Message # 20466:
I can enumerate Allende's illegal actions, if you want.
Just out of curiosity, I wouldn't mind if you did.
Message # 20467:
Whatever. It's not relevant to the exchange about "corporate interests".
Maybe not that specific example, but as you say, whatever.
Look, don't get me wrong. In the spectrum of motives that can be ascribed to any given gov't policy, I actually consider "corporate interest" to be a very rational one. Money I understand -- the bizarre dichotomy between our policies vis-á-vis Cuba and China, for example, a bit less so.
But regardless of whether we ascribe factors of anti-communism, catering to certain voter blocs, or making Guatemala safe for United Fruit, the fact is that there is a lot of corporate interest inherent in many (not all) policy decisions.
Well, you said "let ____ do" certain things. That implies prior permission or encouragement. That didn't happen.
Yeah, I thought that's how you were approaching it, but that's not what I meant to imply. I meant that US inaction after the event implied tacit approval, which it most certainly did.
I can disapprove of people being killed extrajudicially and still think they are vermin.
Sure, but in the example of Chile, that situation is part and parcel of the whole scenario. Pinochet's thugs weeded out and murdered dissidents for a reason. You think that reason may have been to instantly secure his grip on power? Well, then that sort of delegitimizes the coup, doesn't it? (Assuming, as always, that Pinochet had only the best of intentions and merely wanted to wrest the mantle of power from the autocrat Allende, the better to return power to the good citizens of Chile.)
20610. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 1:12:07 AM
Message # 20535:
But the USA has also killed hundreds of thousands of people with little or no justification.
Hey, that's supposed to be my line, you little prick!
BTW, very interesting Suite101 link. You may find it disconcerting that we have pretty much identical views on that subject. I know I do.
20611. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:13:38 AM
"Would also it have been morally justified for hypothetical Cambodian and Vietnamese terrorists in 1972 to have killed innocent Americans in the course of (say) bombing the Pentagon?"
Define "terrorists". The usual definitions I see:
1) non-state-sanctioned forces which use acts of violence directed against civilians, for the purpose of using the ensuing media attention to affect popular opinion.
2) violent acts of irregular forces, such as partisans, guerrillas, or saboteurs, when you don't support their goals.
Using definition #1, the attacks today qualify as terrorism, but hypothetical attacks by the Vietnamese would not qualify as terrorism.
Using definition #2, both acts would qualify.
I don't much care for definition #2, as it is completely relativistic. The Czech partisans who assassinated Heydrich were terrorists? I don't think so. In this context, it is a phrase you use if you don't support the goals of the irregular forces. If you *do* support the goals, you call them "freedom fighters".
But under either definition, McNamara and Kissinger would not qualify as terrorists. "War criminals" certainly, at least in the eyes of the Vietnamese and Cambodians.
20612. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:13:52 AM
The Post is also reporting that the people on the plane were forced to huddle in the back of the plane and told to call loved ones and let them know of their death.
Oh, those motherfuckers.
20613. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:14:14 AM
Well, I hope you're right, mg, that the jig is up. It will be up if and when it is established that Iraq has some kind of connection to this act.
This could unwind slowly - the way the Gulf War only happened some months after Iraq invaded Kuwait. A US operation against Bin Laden could draw in Saddam.
It could even be designed to do that.
20614. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:15:23 AM
War criminals. Dammit, I was looking for that term earlier and it wouldn't come.
20615. HollyW - 9/12/2001 1:17:12 AM
Hey, I can't plow through all of today's posts. Has anyone here lost anyone close? Is everybody okay?
I swear, I am interested in the political stuff, I just wanna know. Thanks.
20616. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:17:33 AM
Thank god for those cameramen who showed the Pal celebrations and managed to transmit those pictures. I'm sure they're not allowed to do that anymore.
20617. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 1:18:49 AM
Raskolnikov: you and others are too fixated on certain terms and definitions. I don't care whether you call certain groups "terrorists" or "freedom fighters" or "war criminals". the question reduces to moral justification, as a person sees it, doesn't it.
20618. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:19:23 AM
Holly,
Not that we know of, but we haven't heard from janjon, who lives in Manhattan, and PsychProf's son works in the area, apparently. PP hasn't been around all day, which is very unusual.
20619. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:19:36 AM
Holly:
Has anyone here lost anyone close? Is everybody okay?
No casualties that we know of, though we have still to hear from janjon. Marj is OK.
I find it remarkable that the WTC is down yet the Mote server is up. What could this mean?
20620. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:20:05 AM
I'm just pleased that I'm not the only one being chastised for semantics. Although he was much nicer to you, Rask. (sniff)
20621. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 1:20:23 AM
Message # 20606: Well, I'm an atheist so I am happy to be disgraceful to the deluded. But when warring fanatics agree that a non-fanatic is disgraceful perhaps it's time to just nuke them all the fanatics. Exterminate the brutes!
20622. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:20:33 AM
for bringing up semantics, that is.
20623. HollyW - 9/12/2001 1:21:41 AM
Thanks. I just noticed the posts in the Cafe, too.
20624. mgleason - 9/12/2001 1:22:00 AM
I don't think Woolsey was on the air speculating about possible Iraqi involvement by accident, RP. It's interesting to sit back and watch the government spin. They're going to drag Saddam in, whether he wants it or not.
20625. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:23:36 AM
RP,
Don't see why.
I must say that the first thing I thought of when I saw the celebrations is "Oh, that's just like an Arab". I can't even say why, but the cheerful, unrepentant bloodthirstiness just strikes me as them being true to their cultural form.
20626. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:25:34 AM
Post Article
This is the one GJ was referring to, about the passengers being forced to tell their loved ones they were going to die, and the original plans to take it to the White House.
20627. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 1:26:32 AM
Message # 20609
See here, particularly points after #5.
Message # 20467:
the fact is that there is a lot of corporate interest inherent in many (not all) policy decisions.
I can only think of one: Guatemala and United Fruit.
20628. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 1:29:01 AM
An ABC person says there is talk of beefing up the sky marshal program. Good idea. But better to beef up the baggage and passenger checkers in the terminals.
20629. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:29:24 AM
Between the Post article and what I'm hearing on ABC, it seems like the pilots were definitely experienced.
Also, the Pittsburgh plane seems to have exploded or something--a puff of smoke was seen. But apparently the plane turned around and was heading back to Washington. The ABC news guy thinks they might have put the real pilot back in control and then there was a fight.
20630. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:30:23 AM
Hey, BobbyJ! Nice to see you.
One other thing that the Post article reminds me of--how did they get into the cockpit? The door is locked.
20631. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:30:25 AM
Oh, I don't think Arafat's ashen face was much of an act. I'm sure he doesn't give a fuck about the loss of life. I'm quite sure he understands the ramifications of all of America seeing his people celebrating over the attacks today. He also knows that most Americans aren't going to make much of a distinction between Palestinian terrorists and Bin Laden's crew (if, indeed, it was Bin Laden's crew that pulled this off).
Just because he's slime doesn't mean he doesn't have the political sense to denounce the attacks and then go hide.
Not that we'll target Arafat. Not even that the Israelis will take him out for us. We won't and I doubt they will.
We'll show off some kind of brand spanking new technology and launch several 'surgical' strikes against camps in Afghanistan. What else are we going to do, occupy the Middle East? And for most people this Pearl Harbor II will become a great deal less important. What happened today should have been a wake up call for the US but I think the US is likely to hit the snooze button after a few minutes. Because, when you get right down to it, there isn't a whole lot more we can do to prevent someone from hijacking a plane and piloting it into a satisfyingly large target. Not sustainably, not here.
20632. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:31:58 AM
I must say that the first thing I thought of when I saw the celebrations is "Oh, that's just like an Arab". I can't even say why, but the cheerful, unrepentant bloodthirstiness just strikes me as them being true to their cultural form.
You can't say why?
How about because it's true?
90% of all stereotypes are, quite frankly, true as the Word of God Itself.
I personally want a 100:1 death ration for our retribution. Men, women, children-- I don't give a fuck. The children will die without their parents anyway, and if they don't die, they'll just grow up to be terrorists anyway.
Let us begin wiping the globe clean of these fuckers. They want to meet Allah; let us arrange the introduction.
20633. mgleason - 9/12/2001 1:32:05 AM
That's an interesting point that John Nance on ABC raises about why the cockpit doors can't be made sturdier, a matter of guarding against a change in pressure, apparently.
20634. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:32:14 AM
Has anyone yet bothered to connect today's events with the Feds busting into that computer complex in Texas looking for evidence of complicity in terrorism? You know, the place that registered the .iq suffix?
20635. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:32:28 AM
Yeah, we were saying that a while back in this thread, angel. (nice to see you.) American intolerance for inconvenience will out. In the short term, though, I think heightened security will be sustained because travel is so light right now. The minute demand perks up, aggravation will end any security measures.
20636. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:33:32 AM
"Raskolnikov: you and others are too fixated on certain terms and definitions. I don't care whether you call certain groups "terrorists" or "freedom fighters" or "war criminals". the question reduces to moral justification, as a person sees it, doesn't it."
Not sure how you can have a useful discussion of whether person A can be described by attribute B without defining attribute B.
But if all you want to know about is whether I think McNamara and Kissinger were morally justified in their decisions, I would say "no". As, I imagine, would most people in this thread. Comparing them to bin Laden just confuses the issue.
If you want to know what morally distinguishes them from bin Laden, I would agree with the others here that primarily has to do with not targetting civilians as an end in itself, particularly without any sort of rational justification for a "total war" strategy. To me, that is a pretty big distinction.
20637. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:33:51 AM
Cockpit doors can be made sturdier but as long as there's communication lines between the cockpit and the rest of the plane, hijackers will still have their best leverage available... telling the pilot to either open the damn door or listen to people die.
20638. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:34:33 AM
Haven't read about the Fed busting yet.
Ace,
Oh, I know. But the complete lack of awareness of how their happiness would be perceived, the gleeful joy that America--who they probably don't even hate all that much--has suffered because after all, they are godless infidels...I dunno.
They drive the same way.
20639. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:35:19 AM
A5: I think you're wrong. I think George Bush Sr., who is your real leader in case you didn't know, will use this as justification for an exteremely humiliating incursion into the fundamental Islamist heartland. If it's Bin Laden - then it'll probably be against Afghanistan. I guess.
20640. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:35:57 AM
"That's an interesting point that John Nance on ABC raises about why the cockpit doors can't be made sturdier, a matter of guarding against a change in pressure, apparently."
Nonsense. You can have thick doors with several dozen tiny airholes to equalize pressure.
We will have:
Armed pilots;
armed stewardresses (at least one or two in the crew);
armed undercover skymarshals;
army anti-aircraft missile bases outside of every major and minor city;
and soon National Identity cards.
20641. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:37:23 AM
"hijackers will still have their best leverage available... telling the pilot to either open the damn door or listen to people die."
Not with five or six armed personnel on-board.
Quite frankly, I don't know why they didn't carry guns before.
20642. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:38:14 AM
I will now try not to Mote for several hours. Or watch CNN.
(yeah, right).
Seriously, I am up shit creek financially.
20643. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:38:54 AM
I don't think so.
20644. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:39:37 AM
Of course, all of those measures (save the National Identity Cards) are "fighting the last war," and hence probably useless.
The problem is that we are living in the age of the Second Crusade, and I hate to be racial, but what we have is an intractable, unsolvable racial animosity between Arabs and the West.
I don't care to surrender and I don't care to lose tens of thousands of more Americans. Which means, unfortunately, that the Arabs are going to have to exit the planet. Tough shit. Shit happens.
There are too many poor Islamic men willing to die?
Let's reduce that number.
20645. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:40:06 AM
Ace,
Um, that would be because a gun fired in the wrong place could crash the plane far more effectively than the terrorists.
20646. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:40:35 AM
I should point out that this, if it indeed was orchestrated by Bin Laden, wasn't much of a sneak attack. The guy's been promising this for how long now?
Not to split hairs, you know.
Re: Macnamara and Kissinger and Bombs and Bin Laden
Yes, everyone in this situation turns out to be an asshole, except for the civilians, who turn out to be dead. I don't know what the big deal is about this point. I haven't seen anyone preaching that America should respond forcibly because we have clean hands and the terrorists do not.
There's a pragmatic value in letting people know that it's absolutely time to stop fucking with us. We won't convince everyone among the terrorists to lay off, and we won't incapacitate all the ones who remain unconvincable, but I'd lay decent odds that the body count will in the end be higher if we do not act decisively and militarily in the immediate future.
20647. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:41:57 AM
Yes, I completely agree with A5's last paragraph.
20648. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:42:00 AM
But I have to say that discussing the justification (or lack thereof) for American actions in Vietnam seems like getting Woody Allen when you asked for John Wayne.
20649. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:42:11 AM
"Um, that would be because a gun fired in the wrong place could crash the plane far more effectively than the terrorists."
Um, that's incorrect. Sky-marshals carry guns loaded with glazer safety slugs, which will usually not penetrate a cabin.
20650. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:42:59 AM
George Bush Sr., who is your real leader in case you didn't know,
Whatever, this is total nonsense. The real president was duly elected last year... of course, his name happens to be Cheney.
20651. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:44:12 AM
Glazers are, I think, tiny steel pellets in a thick gelatin rather than one single big steel bullet. More like a shotgun shell than a conventional round.
And they've been around since 1978 or so.
20652. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:45:32 AM
I screwed up that last post. Take 2:
But I have to say that discussing the justification (or lack thereof) for American actions in Vietnam, AT A TIME LIKE THIS, is like getting Woody Allen when you asked for John Wayne.
20653. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:46:29 AM
It may well come to armed men flying on each plane, Ace. I'll have to think about that a lot more, though, because just one of those armed men, with the element of surprise, could be a real pain in the ass if he wanted to... and there would be a lot of them... and it strikes me that being an armed fucking guard on a passenger jet would be a lot more stressful than, oh, say, being a postal worker. And we know what those folks are like.
20654. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:46:36 AM
BREAKING NEWS:
4th airplane crashed because three men decided to rush the cockpit. "We're all gonna die," one man tells his wife by cell-phone, "But we're gonna do something."
20655. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:47:20 AM
Ace,
I like "usually". Besides, the hijackers might have guns, and I'm thinking they won't be careful about the bullets.
It's a shit awful bad idea to put armed cops on planes--unless the plan is to keep drunks from getting uppity. To say nothing of the fact that in the best case, if it were effective, it would just shift the terrorists focus to using bombs--they don't need to always aim so exactly.
Before we go putting guns on airplanes, I'd like to know how they got into the cockpit and how they were able to get the passengers and pilots cooperation with nothing more than some small knives.
20656. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:47:35 AM
Ynet reports Arafat has given severe orders to quell any further celebrations on the streets of the WB&G. Officials of Hamas and Islamic Jihad expressed satisfaction with the attacks, though the organizations' formal stand was denouncement.
20657. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:47:39 AM
I'm sure they'd pack tasers anyway.
20658. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:47:48 AM
Those men gave their lives to save either a) the Capitol Building or b) (more likely) the White House. It's been confirmed 4th plane heading for DC.
20659. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 1:48:06 AM
PE:
Thanks for the link. So basically, the Allende regime was a corrupt band of cronyists who subverted judicial authority and circumvented the Congress' power, in order to establish an authoritarian gov't?
Okay. Fair enough. Aside from the lack of summary executions in Estadio Del Soccer Riot, how substantially different is this, really, from Pinochet's gang of thugs?
As to the other, Guatemala/United Fruit is the most obvious one, and it's a big 'un, imho, because it set the stage for how we handled the rest of Central America, which vicious oligarchies we bankrolled, etc.
The US' current involvement in Colombia is another example, I think. It's possible that we really are dumb enough to think we're fighting the War on Some Drugs there, but it's just more rational to be there to secure eventual access to what is supposedly the largest untapped oil reserve in the hemisphere.
Our continued support of Suharto, even after his manifold butchery, could be at least partially ascribed to his willingness to buy lots of weapons from our contractors, and allow American extraction conglomerates, such as Freeport-McMoran, to set up and operate as they please.
No doubt you'll dispute and scoff, but the fact is that American corporations inject enormous amounts of money into political campaigns. They do not do this out of the goodness of their hearts. They expect something in return, as well they should. Sometimes they get it, sometimes at the expense of someone else's life. Only an idiot would dispute that. I just think some accountability might be in order, at least once in a while.
20660. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:49:27 AM
Before we go putting guns on airplanes, I'd like to know how they got into the cockpit and how they were able to get the passengers and pilots cooperation with nothing more than some small knives.
Because no one wants to be the first to die? I'm sure they did something suitably gruesome to start in order to demonstrate their resolve. That would have helped matters.
20661. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:49:55 AM
A plainclothes armed guard on every airline flight doesn't strike me as bad idea right now. If you give people a fucking box lunch in the terminal, you can eliminate a couple flight attendants and keep prices low.
20662. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:51:02 AM
"It's a shit awful bad idea to put armed cops on planes--unless the plan is to keep drunks from getting uppity. To say nothing of the fact that in the best case, if it were effective, it would just shift the terrorists focus to using bombs--they don't need to always aim so exactly. "
Sure. There's always a DIFFERENT risk, so why guard against any particular risk?
If we have NMD, they'll use airplanes; if we put guns on airplanes, they'll use bombs. It's a vicious cycle, we can't do anything, why try?
Yeah, it's a bad idea to put guns on planes... after all, what did today cost? Merely twenty or fifty BILLION dollars and 15,000+ lives.
One or two or three large insurers may go bankrupt tomorrow. The economy may tank; we may enter a DEPRESSION.
But Cal and her faggy liberal worldview is oh-so-concerned about a pilot carrying a gun and "going nuts."
20663. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:51:31 AM
Ace:
If so, that was pretty damn heroic.
20664. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:51:33 AM
Ace--yeah, I mentioned that earlier; both the guy calling his wife and the guy calling his mom implied that. I haven't heard any confirmation about it, though.
20665. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:51:37 AM
Armed stewardesses? Take it to the Sex thread.
Where would they be packing those (gulp)...
Never mind.
20666. angel-five - 9/12/2001 1:53:06 AM
50 billion seems awfully low.
20667. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 1:53:20 AM
Ace's #20646 is precision munition.
20668. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:54:08 AM
20 or 50 Billion? Am I understating?
What the hell would the price tag be on this?
Assuming $1,000,000 per life lost (a rather low figure), that's $15 billion in loss of life alone.
The WTC was worth, perhaps, $10 billion; the cleanup will be $10 billion; the investigation will cost $5 billion.
Economic repercussions? America's financial markets are closed, at least for a week.
Jesus.
But no way do we want GUNS on airplanes! Eeeek! Guns are BAAAAAAD!
20669. CalGal - 9/12/2001 1:54:36 AM
Ace,
What on earth are you talking about?
Angel,
Because no one wants to be the first to die?
No, I understand that. And until now, the recommendation by "experts" has always been to cooperate. But in the Pentagon plane, they knew they were going to die. Not that I expect logic under pressure, but they outnumbered these guys by quite a bit.
I'm more curious about the cockpit, though.
20670. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:55:35 AM
A5:
Yes, crosspost. I lowballed, because the number "1 trillion" seemed ludicrously farfetched at first; but now I think the total real costs will be more in the vicinity of a trillion than 50 billion.
20671. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 1:56:28 AM
Just saw an interview where a woman who talked to her hijacked husband says that the terrorists claimed to have a bomb on the plain. They were probably bluffing, but who wants to risk it if you don't know you are going to die anyway? Prior to this, most hijackings ended up with very few deaths.
20672. mgleason - 9/12/2001 1:56:46 AM
What is it with these fatigues-wearing guys with scraggly facial hair: Castro, Bin Laden, Araphat?
20673. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 1:59:59 AM
MSNBC is now showing the nighttime skyline WITH the World Trade Center.
Which no longer exists, of course.
20674. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:00:37 AM
Rask,
I know, I've said several times that cooperation has always been assumed to be the best option. But that was the Pittsburgh plane (the one that said they had a bomb). I was curious about the Pentagon plane, given that they knew it was going to crash.
As it is, it appears that it was on the Pittsburgh plane that they fought, even though they thought the plane had a bomb, whereas the Pentagon plane had poor Barbara Olson calling up her husband to see how she could get the pilots to fight.
20675. Andonly - 9/12/2001 2:02:30 AM
"All my sympathy for you is gone."
Three hundred million Americans: we're all Israelis now.
Ace: thanks for posting -54. I've been hoping that's what happened.
"There's a pragmatic value in letting people know that it's absolutely time to stop fucking with us."
We will destroy Saddam and the Taliban. I'm wondering if we'll arrange somehow to hit Afghanistan from the north; all that kissyface Shrub did with Putin--wonder if it actually might pay off, say, in a joint manouver over Kazakhstan's airspace.
The media seem to have forgotten about Syria and Iran. I'm hearing nothing about Syria or Iran in the news--no crocodile condolences from their leaders, no domestic questions about terrorist training or funding by those states. Yet, we have outstanding business with Iran, as Israel has with Syria.
An FT report has Arab leaders insisting bin Laden could not have brought this thing off on his own. No one is naming names, though; they're pissing in their pants just now.
20676. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 2:02:42 AM
Ace:
So how close are you to ground zero, if I might ask?
20677. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:03:18 AM
Armed guards on an airplane can't keep the World Trade Center safe. It can only stave off what may well have been inevitable, given the fact that we live in a free country and that we have many fanatic enemies. Everyone is going to run around looking for a quick fix to what happened today... like building a better mousetrap in the cockpit... or carpet-bombing an entire population. But we've never been safe in America, we've just been lucky.
20678. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:04:49 AM
A trillion was my relatively uninformed guess, TBH. Not that that holds water, I was just surprised to see you, of all people, using such a lower number.
20679. Andonly - 9/12/2001 2:05:34 AM
"I should point out that this, if it indeed was orchestrated by Bin Laden, wasn't much of a sneak attack. The guy's been promising this for how long now?"
Three months, if I remember correctly, and the State Department responded with one of its warnings against travelling in the mideast. The promise was that the attack on "American interests" would be "surprising". And then, three weeks ago, a bin Laden associate made a similar threat to a BBC interviewer, saying that a planned assault on American interests would be "huge".
20680. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:05:35 AM
In the 70s, we put armed sky marshalls on flights. The number of hijackings stopped (of course, metal detecters were also added).
20681. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:06:22 AM
Well, lucky combined with the sense that it's best to only jab us, rather than stab us in the gut. A sense that has clearly changed--or maybe we've been so tame that they really thought we wouldn't react much.
Krauthammer writes that he is dismayed at Hughes' talk of "investigation"--I agree, and said so a while back. Enough bullshit about handling this legally; it's a military issue.
20682. HollyW - 9/12/2001 2:06:30 AM
Okay, I've got to go to bed.
Here's the personal angle, out here in the greater Boston area:
A doctor at my hospital died. He was young, and one of the nice docs, one you didn't mind when you had to call him, because you knew he wouldn't mind. Dr. Rimmele.
The husband of one of our nurses died. She's the person who hired everybody, so we all know her, but she's not a floor nurse, so I don't know her well.
Both of these men were on the planes.
Work today was very odd.
New York people are being sent to Boston hospitals, so we are thinking that Boston people may end up at our hospital (small, suburban). We have people who need to go to Boston for angioplasties but can't--no room at the inn.
I am currently hearing a plane overhead--not what one particularly wants to hear, 20 miles from Logan!
20683. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:08:06 AM
The word I've heard all along is that there was no way Bin Laden or any other organization could have pulled this off alone, Andonly. Admittedly, as time passed today and people started contemplating the difficulties inherent in getting different terrorist groups to cooperate, that word has been a little more muted. But they hit a triple, almost a homer, today, and they've been batting in the low hundreds for a LONG time, so I can't figure this was a solo operation.
20684. HollyW - 9/12/2001 2:08:45 AM
But we've never been safe in America, we've just been lucky.
In a nutshell, yep.
20685. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:08:59 AM
GJ,
I'm pretty sure that it was the metal detectors that fixed the problem, but it has been a long time since I read about it. I travelled a lot in the 70s; hijacking was a very real fear, so I used to read everything I could find.
20686. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:11:06 AM
But the point is that we also had armed sky marshals on flights. I bet we add them again, for starters.
20687. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:11:26 AM
Holly,
So they both crashed into the WTC? Christ.
Angel,
I've been wondering about that as well. Earlier it seemed as if any minimally qualified pilot could have flown the planes, but now the maneuvers clearly required experience. Did Bin Laden have access to this sort of person?
20688. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:12:10 AM
"A trillion was my relatively uninformed guess, TBH. Not that that holds water, I was just surprised to see you, of all people, using such a lower number."
As I said, a "trillion" just seemed at first blush too far fetched and scary. But that's what today is.
EC,
I live in Manhattan. I work in Manhattan. I wasn't particularly close, but I was close enough.
And I have friends who were too close, or at least are not yet accounted for.
20689. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:12:25 AM
His training supposedly includes pilot training.
20690. mgleason - 9/12/2001 2:13:27 AM
I remember the marshals on planes in the '70s. I used to travel frequently, too, and had forgotten how scary it was.
20691. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:13:35 AM
The little fucker being pursued in Florida was attending a technical college pursuing a degree in 767 piloting.
20692. HollyW - 9/12/2001 2:16:04 AM
Hahaha. I didn't hear a plane, just thought I did. I really should be in bed.
My husband is in newspapers, and just spent 9 hours immersed in this, and he is burnt. At work, I missed a lot, but he knows all the stories and saw all the pictures over the AP wire and is not doing well with it. He is currently, and thankfully, sleeping on the couch next to me.
20693. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:17:01 AM
The Fed Computer Bust in Texas
20694. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:17:24 AM
Boston: Five "Arab Men" (go figure, huh?) being questioned in connection with aiding & abetting hijackers; the five "Arab Men" (shocker, right?) worked at the airline and are suspected of smuggling weapons & such on board for the hijackers.
20695. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:17:40 AM
GJ,
Oh, I didn't mean to ignore that point; I got distracted. I believe that studies demonstrated that armed sky marshals actually increased the risk--not only during hijacks, but at other times as well. But as I said, it's been a while since I read this and I might have the facts wrong.
I also read just recently that other countries were returning to this practice, but I really think it's a lousy idea.
20696. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:18:50 AM
Ace, I hope your friends are okay.
20697. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:21:10 AM
As far as piloting goes... The World Trade Center and the Pentagon are both pretty damned big targets to miss and most modern jetliners are supposedly extremely easy to fly once you get them in the air. Someone who's just jocked Flight Simulator 2k might have a problem, but I don't know that it'd be terribly hard for someone who's actually flown a real airplane.
I can't speak for the precision of the maneuvers performed because I honestly don't know... after all, I'm one of those folks I just mentioned who hasn't flown anything outside a flight simulator. But a LOT of people were saying initially that it wouldn't have been too hard, and they can't all be wrong.
20698. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 2:21:52 AM
Ace:
I live in Manhattan. I work in Manhattan.
Yeah, I know, that's why I was wondering. Not to be a ninny or anything, but I'm glad you're OK.
20699. mgleason - 9/12/2001 2:22:03 AM
Ah, here's tape of Lawrence Eagleburger promoting parking lot status for Afghanistan.
20700. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:23:11 AM
Angel,
Wow. I'm surprised no one has brought it up yet--at least I haven't read anything.
20701. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:24:43 AM
My friend's father was on the hundred and second floor of WTC #2 when the plane hit WTC #1.
"Stay calm," his supervisor told him. "Stay here until we can figure out what happened."
"Um, no," my friend's 70-year-old Dad thought, and quickly began the two hour walk to the bottom of the tower. He'd been in the 1993 bombing as well; he knew it took a long time to walk.
The second plane hit WTC #2 when he got to the first floor.
Other friends are MIA. I don't mention this an excuse for emotionalism; I only mention it to drive home the fact that these little names you'll see listed on TV aren't just names. They were people. People who's legs, arms, and heads were blown off, people who died of smoke inhalation or were incinerated.
Unfortunately, I might have known a couple.
They were real people, and they were murdered. Not by criminals, but by CRIMINAL STATES.
When we start killing their ratty little children -- and we will, I hope -- I hope everyone remembers why those little shits have to die.
PS, the networks are embargoing/suppressing gruesome footage of death and dismemberment. They should STOP suppressing immediately. They are not nannies; they have a duty to report what happened in all of its glistening, gory horror.
20702. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:24:46 AM
Angel,
That's what they were saying at first, but the new footage of the second WTC plane as well as the Pentagon plane's sharp last minute turn has caused some of them to change their mind--I'm speaking only of the pilot experts on the news shows.
20703. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 2:25:24 AM
Pals celebrate. That car needs washing.
20704. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:26:56 AM
Guess it's time to dust off Larry Bond's The Enemy Within and see if I spot any eerie predictions coming true.
20705. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:27:42 AM
Any number of people in WTC really were told to stay put; vK mentioned it earlier today and I found it hard to believe until it ws confirmed several times. Almost all the people who left early say they were either in the 93 bombing or were following the advice of someone who was.
20706. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:28:14 AM
A couple of the flights involved turns just prior to hitting the target.
When we were watching live the NY local coverage this morning and the second plane hit, my partner noticed the airplane coming in after we replayed it two times. They kept speculating that it must have been a bomb and we were yelling about the plane. Finally some reporter called in and said that they had replayed it, too, and noticed the plane.
Between cell phones and TIVO and the internet, there is an amazing interaction between viewers and news coverers.
20707. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:28:39 AM
I have a friend named Murad who worked at Trade 1. Haven't been able to get hold of him yet, which isn't surprising from what I've heard.
20708. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:29:47 AM
Not only did they execute turns, they successfully navigated the planes -- without the aid of the normal follow-the-beacon system (since they were making their own route) -- over a distance of 100, 200 miles or more.
They weren't just "flying" the plane as in "keeping it level and keeping it from crashing."
20709. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:31:43 AM
One woman in tower #2 reported that they evacuated their floor (in the 30s) when the plane hit the first tower, but as they got almost to the first floor, the all clear voice came on, telling people it was ok to go back to their floors. She continued on outside in time to see debris falling from the second plane.
20710. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:32:11 AM
Okay, it seems that the car that was stopped had a lot of flight training manuals--written in Arabic.
20711. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:33:47 AM
They also knew enough to turn off the navigational transponder that sends out pertinent identifying information to flight controllers. That was in today's Washington Post.
20712. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:34:53 AM
You don't need to be following a set flight path to follow a beacon, I don't believe, Ace. Those things broadcast 360 and it doesn't matter which direction you're coming from, you just select the frequency of the VOR that you want and a little display in the cockpit will point you at it.
Once again, not to split hairs. If experts are now saying an amateur couldn't have pulled this off, well, that's more meaningful than my own idea.
20713. Andonly - 9/12/2001 2:35:29 AM
CalGal, are you referring to the car stopped on the GWB? Is that the same one reportedly stopped in Bergen County?
20714. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:36:17 AM
Slate discusses this, Glenda. Slate also mentions turning off the autopilot and descending from 29,000 feet to 1,000 feet in just an hour, which is also a difficult trick for an inexperienced flier.
the article doesn't mention navigation, which I thought would be a difficult trick without training.
20715. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:36:35 AM
If there were flight manuals in the fucking car then it stands to reason that this wasn't planned out TOO far in advance.
20716. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:37:38 AM
"CalGal, are you referring to the car stopped on the GWB? Is that the same one reportedly stopped in Bergen County?"
No, a car stopped in Broward Co, florida (FLORIDA AGAIN!!!)
An Osama bin Ladin cell -- or multiple cells -- is being hounded in broward and Dayton.
20717. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:37:46 AM
And--I believe so, but haven't found a link. I just heard it mentioned on Fox. I'm looking now.
20718. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:38:13 AM
I wonder if the 4th plane crashed from pilot error or because somebody on the plane caused enough havoc to cut it short.
20719. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:38:38 AM
Dayton?
Which Dayton?
20720. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:39:19 AM
My aunt is a fucking ATC in Dayton.
20721. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:39:29 AM
"If there were flight manuals in the fucking car then it stands to reason that this wasn't planned out TOO far in advance."
Jesus, use your fucking head. 1) he could have been finishing his course 2) he could have been a new sleeper recruited for the NEXT round, or as a back-up "Alternate Terrorist" for this round.
They guy was NOT involved in the actual hijacking. He is CONNECTED to the hijacking perhaps, but not a hijacker.
20722. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:39:53 AM
Well, she's celibate. But you know what I meant.
20723. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:40:15 AM
Oh, was it Florida? I did think it was the GWB one--did that end up being a myth? I'm still looking for a link.
Angel--not necessarily, they might have been training others. But then I guess I like to think of this as having been carefully planned. Certainly the logistics seemed to have been worked out well in advance.
20724. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:40:33 AM
"I wonder if the 4th plane crashed from pilot error or because somebody on the plane caused enough havoc to cut it short."
Passengers rushed the cockpit and overpowered the hijackers. See post above.
20725. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:40:39 AM
What is ATC?
20726. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:41:00 AM
Oh, and it could also be that they were training the other guys in case something happened to the main pilot--assuming they had one per plane.
20727. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:41:16 AM
Sorry. I missed it. I'll check it out.
20728. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:41:21 AM
Sorry. I missed it. I'll check it out.
20729. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:42:04 AM
Daytona, I meant.
20730. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:42:57 AM
I am using my fucking head, Ace. If the guy is finishing his course in the car the day all this goes down then, a priori, it's likely that this wasn't planned out too far in advance. That is an obvious risk for one and an equally obvious sign that at least part of the team wasn't adequately prepared.
20731. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:43:36 AM
Air Traffic Controller.
20732. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:44:09 AM
I am off to bed. Goodnight all.
20733. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:44:53 AM
Of course, parts of the plan could be dry and dusty ancient, but the whole wouldn't be.
20734. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:45:36 AM
Daytona. Ah.
20735. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:45:55 AM
"That is an obvious risk for one and an equally obvious sign that at least part of the team wasn't adequately prepared."
You're not using your head. Last time I checked, the fucking camel-jockeys still hate us, and we still have lots of buildings standing. Ergo, they're not finished yet.
RP,
I need some anti-arab slurs. "Sand Nigger" and "Dune Coon" are all I know, and I don't want to use them. After all, I don't want to insult blacks when it's the fucking Arabs who are killing us. "Camel-jockey" is just *cute.* I want a vicious slur for these stinking, unshowered, ugly fucking maniacs.
20736. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:49:12 AM
Angel,
Yes, that's true, but I still think it's at least possible that they were training backup pilots.
Ace,
Well, I'll have to tell Irv I was wrong. I didn't think there would be a lot of anti-arab sentiment. Granted, that was before the Palestinian celebration scene.
20737. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:52:54 AM
You're not using your head. Last time I checked, the fucking camel-jockeys still hate us, and we still have lots of buildings standing.
Oh, calm down. The day of the bombings is not exactly the smartest day to be carrying around that sort of evidence... you might not agree to that but I'm sure that Bin Laden or whoever would, I'm especially sure that the guys in the car are too. No way in the world those guys would have been out on the road with that kind of stuff on them if there hadn't been an urgent need for it.
20738. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 2:54:02 AM
"I didn't think there would be a lot of anti-arab sentiment"
Eh. It's not "anti-arab" to merely insist we incarcerate (without trial) all suspected arab terrorists and deport every other one of them.
No more visas, no more green cards. Buh-buy.
20739. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:54:22 AM
Yes, that's true, but I still think it's at least possible that they were training backup pilots.
Of course that's possible. It might even be likely. But that's still beside the point... the timing speaks of a rushed job.
20740. CalGal - 9/12/2001 2:56:08 AM
I don't buy a rush.
Slate piece on probable pilot skills
20741. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:57:21 AM
Most Americans aren't terribly sophisticated when it comes to killing Arabs and many aren't even worried about getting the right ones.As far as anti-Arab sentiment... there are people here who are pleased with the prospect of going to war against them. Like, cheering pleased.
The fact that these guys are still breathing and all those folks in NYC aren't is just one of those cosmic mysteries.
20742. angel-five - 9/12/2001 2:58:40 AM
And I don't mean pleased the way Ace is pleased. I mean they want to enlist, take up arms, and go kill them themselves.
20743. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:01:21 AM
Well, I don't mind killing any natives of a country that is harboring them, because I think that's part of the deal.
A Gallup poll just showed that the overwhelming majority of those called support military action, but only after making sure we get the right guys.
20744. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:03:23 AM
Look at it like this, CalGal.
The FBI, foreign intelligence, ATF and god knows who all else watch all suspected terrorists like hawks. We all hear about the many busts every year and the many terrorist acts that are stopped at the last minute -- someone gets a tip or cracks a cipher or spots a suspicious group of Arabs living in an apartment who are scouting the local airport or trying to buy nitromethane or whatever.
So you have these undetected, as of yet, cells. And they're planning a major operation, setting everything up right... and then something happens. Something, I don't know, like the Feds seizing the computer network they were using for their communications, or a contact of theirs gets taken in. What are their choices? Accelerate the plan at the last minute with all the necessary improvisations, and risks, or sit and wait and hope nothing happens.
20745. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:05:23 AM
Oh, that's where you're heading. Okay, that holds together. I wasn't picking up on that connection.
But I still think it is too risky to train the primary pilots--it makes more sense that they had a skilled pilot per plane. Or maybe they were short one.
20746. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:09:07 AM
It would also explain why the date has no significance.
20747. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:12:59 AM
Well, I don't mind killing any natives of a country that is harboring them, because I think that's part of the deal.
You don't? I sure the hell do. Do the people you kill have any real chance to keep their strongmen from aiding and abetting terrorist cadres? Do they even agree with terrorism at all, let alone having their nation sponsor it? In most terrorist-sheltering nations the answer to the former is no and the latter, unknown. But once you blow their family members up they're much more likely to agree to the terrorism. And there's the fact that they're innocent to boot.
That isn't to say I can't accept the fact that in order to kill these folks off (and save lives and protect the well being of our nation) you might have to take a few bystanders with them. I can accept that. It's still wrong, but we don't always have the luxury of doing nothing when none of the other choices are good. I support the use of the Sunday Punch against these fuckers even though it will come with a cost, but I can't pretend I have no problem with it.
20748. Andonly - 9/12/2001 3:14:41 AM
I've read TV subscreen reports about five men in Massachusetts being held in connection with the attack. No details. What's going on? Is it NJ, FL, or MA? All three?
20749. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 3:17:32 AM
A Gallup poll just showed that the overwhelming majority of those called support military action, but only after making sure we get the right guys.
It might be interesting to note here that today, as I've been out and about, everyone I talk to, everywhere I go, here in Indonesia, which MSNBC Asia keeps referring to as "the world's largest Muslim nation," the reaction is the same: horror, shock and disbelief at this cowardly atack on innocent people, and support for a firm targeted response by the USA. One Indonesian I know pointed to a map and picked out Afganistan, and gleefully said "you can erase this one." Don't think for a minute that outrage is confined to your borders.
I fear that Americans will equate this attack with Islam. This was not Islam vs the USA... it was the act of twisted individuals, who do not represent the Muslim world.
20750. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:17:40 AM
I think I am going to wait a few days and let the smoke settle, and with it all the bogus and confused stories, before I try to sort any of this out any further. Right now it's just too muddy.
20751. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:19:02 AM
Okay, ABC news is reporting about the car seized with arabic airline manuals. It's on the Boston Herald site, but it doesn't come up. It was at Boston's Logan airport. The Feds were tipped off by a guy who had an altercation with them and then went on his way to the airport and caught a flight. When he heard about what happened he called the state police.
The brothers are from the UAE, as I think Ace said, and one of them is a trained pilot.
The link might take a long time to load.
20752. Andonly - 9/12/2001 3:19:03 AM
Okay, this is from the Boston Herald:
Authorities in Massachusetts identified at least five Arab men as suspects in yesterday's terror attacks launched from Logan International Airport, seizing in the central parking garage a car laden with Arabic-language flight training manuals, sources said last night.
Two of the men, whose passports were traced to the United Arab Emirates, were brothers, one of whom was a trained pilot, a source told the Herald, speaking on condition of anonymity.
20753. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:21:25 AM
Whoops--didn't include the link because I hit enter accidentally and didn't refresh as planned. I see Andonly has beat me to it.
20754. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:21:38 AM
Irv:
I believe that your fears are well grounded. Not that anyone's gonna go bomb Indonesia, but I doubt many Americans are going to draw too fine of a distinction between the flavor of Islamic culture found in Indonesia and that found around the Fertile Crescent.
20755. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:23:55 AM
Did I mention that gas is now selling for five bucks a gallon in Indianapolis? At least that's what my friend in Muncie said. I'm hoping his info was wrong. It's too bad GJ toddled off to bed.
20756. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:24:16 AM
Do the people you kill have any real chance to keep their strongmen from aiding and abetting terrorist cadres? Do they even agree with terrorism at all, let alone having their nation sponsor it?
Well, Americans don't always have a choice about what their government does, either. Didn't stop our innocents from being killed.
I think it is time to up the pain factor for harboring terrorists. I also think that whatever response we have should be very loud, very noisy, and very deadly. Lots of footage. Best case, terrorists and their host countries get the idea that we won't be arbitrary, but we won't be overly discriminating, either.
20757. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:25:17 AM
Turns out that, seeing as how gas trucks can make such splendid bombs, people don't want them on the roads just now.
I keep expecting to hear frantic voices on the radio telling us to expect a Japanese invasion of California. All this Pearl Harbor panic is getting a little out of control.
20758. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:25:31 AM
There has been gas gouging in a lot of the middle states. Oddly enough, I bought gas tonight and didn't notice the price--but then, I never do.
Boston Herald piece on arrests
It may take a while to load.
20759. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:27:23 AM
Well, Americans don't always have a choice about what their government does, either. Didn't stop our innocents from being killed.
I suspect that you know this isn't germane to what I said. In case you don't: you might subscribe to the notion that two wrongs make a right, but I don't. It's horrible, what happened today. That won't make it right to kill civilians. If it must be done, it must be done, but it still won't be right.
20760. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:29:04 AM
Irv,
Well, I would have felt a lot more hopeful before Angry Ace showed up. (g) But I do think a great many Americans know the difference, and certainly the media will do a lot to make that point.
Also, I noticed that more than one expert tonight was Arabic--one of the structural engineers on the Lehrer newshour, for example, was Arabic, I think, and a few journalists. So I think there will be an implicit PC push by the press to offset the prejudice. Could be wrong, but I did notice it tonight.
20761. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:29:38 AM
That last realization, btw, will be what distinguishes our retaliation from the initial attack. We shouldn't attempt to lose sight of it.
20762. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 3:31:37 AM
I'm seeing a lot of hate against Islam in various forums. One person talked of killing everyone with "tainted blood."
This is NOT about Islam. It's not even about Arabs.
20763. Andonly - 9/12/2001 3:32:13 AM
From AOL:
The Boston Herald, quoting a source it did not identify, reported that authorities had seized a car at Logan airport that contained Arabic-language flight training manuals. The source said five Arab men had been identified as suspects, including a trained pilot. At least two of those men flew to Logan on Tuesday from Portland, Maine, the Herald said.
The luggage of one of the men who flew to the airport Tuesday didn't make his scheduled connection. The Boston Globe reported the luggage contained a copy of the Koran, an instructional video on flying commercial airliners and a fuel consumption calculator.
The FBI refused to comment on the reports.
20764. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:33:19 AM
Angel,
I don't think that two wrongs make a right. I am saying that the death of innocents is not a primary consideration in a war. Besides, while we don't know that the "innocents" support the terrorists, we don't know that they oppose them, either.
Also, increasing the pain of harboring terrorists ought to be part of the objective.
20765. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:34:16 AM
I sit in one of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade;
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night
- W. H. Auden, September 1, 1939.
Just like I said: Kill the bastards.
20766. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:36:23 AM
As to how they got the pilots out--and damn, pilots should know better:
Once in the air, the hijackers in one plane began killing flight attendants in order to lure a pilot from the cockpit and seize the
plane, said one source.
``They started killing stewardesses in the back of the plane as a
diversion. The pilot came back to help and that is how they got into
the cockpit,'' said the source. The source could not specify whether
those events took place on the American Airlines flight that left Logan, or the United Airlines flight. Both planes were plunged into the World Trade Center roughly an hour after they departed Boston.
The suspects had no guns, but used shaving kits and other carry-on luggage to smuggle knife-like weapons made up of plastic handles embedded with razor blades, sources familiar with last night'sdevelopments said. That finding is consistent with reports of a flight attendant's cell-phone call from one of the doomed airliners.
``People were calling from the plane saying they were getting killed, calling 911,'' said one source. ``One stewardess called her husband to say goodbye.''
20767. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:38:08 AM
Irv,
I do think it is about radical Islam, but there is no reason to think that this taints ordinary Islam, any more than certain fundamentalist Christian sects have anything to do with true Christianity.
20768. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:38:13 AM
"I'm seeing a lot of hate against Islam in various forums. One person talked of killing everyone with "tainted blood."
This is NOT about Islam. It's not even about Arabs."
It is about Islam, and it is about Arabs.
In case you didn't notice, Irv, the people who keep blowing up our embassies, airplanes, and Pentagons are Islamic Arabs.
It's a bit like the crybaby homos who whine that we shouldn't think that Italians are associated with the Mafia simply because the mafia is 100% Italian (and, indeed, pure Sicilian blood is an express requirement for full membership).
Yeah, right Irv: The Mafia is NOT about Italians. Just like terrorism is NOT about Islamic Arabs.
It's just a coincidence that everytime a World trade Center blows up there's some three-toothed, wall-eyed retarded Dune Coon responsible and singing and clapping Sand Niggers in Cairo.
20769. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:39:12 AM
Irv:
Seriously. The Mafia is NOT about Catholic criminals of pure Sicilian descent.
Really. I mean it. It's not like that at all.
20770. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:39:39 AM
I sat at work today and listened to someone, a person who I had grown to like and respect, speak candidly in favor of committing genocide on the Arabs, Irv. And I've heard similar sentiments, it goes without saying, from many more people who I didn't like or respect. So I think I might know where you're coming from.
I don't know that many people here really bother to separate Islam and Arabs. Yes, of course, what happened today isn't about what you believe to be Islam. For that matter is isn't about what I believe to be Islam or. But it does appear to be about what the bombers believe to be Islam, and that's what people are going to think about.
20771. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:43:03 AM
PS, to my black friends,
Sorry about "Sand Nigger" and "Dune Coon." I am really groping for an anti-Arab slur to express the complete disgust I feel for this bastard race.
It was wrong to use the words "Nigger" and "Coon." I got no problem with blacks, and it makes no sense to insult blacks in trying to insult the barbaric murderous Third World scimitar-jugglers.
20772. jexster - 9/12/2001 3:43:57 AM
Authorities in Massachusetts identified at least five Arab men as suspects in yesterday's terror attacks launched from Logan International Airport, seizing in the central parking garage a car laden with Arabic-language flight training manuals, sources said last night.
Two of the men, whose passports were traced to the United Arab Emirates, were brothers, one of whom was a trained pilot, a source told the Herald, speaking on condition of anonymity.
At least two other suspects flew to Logan yesterday from Portland, Maine, where authorities believe they had traveled after crossing over from Canada recently.
The Boston Herald
20773. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:44:29 AM
Irv,
And, BTW, it's always a coincidence when they say "Glory to Allah" just before they murder innocent civilians.
"Glory to Allah" isn't Islamic or anything like that. "Allah" means, apparently, "olive." So when they murder innocent civilians and cry "Allah Akbar," or whatever, they're really saying "We like Olives."
20774. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:44:47 AM
I don't think that two wrongs make a right. I am saying that the death of innocents is not a primary consideration in a war. Besides, while we don't know that the "innocents" support the terrorists, we don't know that they oppose them, either.
Yes, yes, I know, but why the circumlocution? You said you didn't have a problem with killing civilians to get to the terrorists. I said I did. You keep agreeing with me and then tacking on a 'But...' when it's rather straightforward... you either have a problem killing civilians or you don't. I'm not really arguing about anything else.
20775. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:45:00 AM
What a stupid fucking cunt you are, Irv.
But then, par for the course.
20776. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 3:45:35 AM
Message # 20768
In case you didn't notice, Irv, the people who keep blowing up our embassies, airplanes, and Pentagons are Islamic Arabs.
Do you remember the Achille Lauro and Arthur Klinghoffer? The old man in a wheelchair pushed off the cruise liner into the Mediterranean? The ship was hijacked by Arabs and the man was killed by Arabs.
But the Arabs were Christians. 15% of Palestinians are Christians. In fact, one of the most notorious terrorist groups -- FPLP -- is a Christian Palestinian militia.
20777. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:46:54 AM
Actually, you didn't even really say that. You just said you didn't mind killing civilians of a nation that harbors terrorists, I just supposed that you meant to do so as a part of the act of killing the terrorists.
20778. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:48:29 AM
I hope no one confuses the German Nazis who exterminated Jews and killed thousands of Americans in World War II with real German Naziism, which of course has nothing to do with all that exterminating and slaughtering at all.
I'm so glad we always kept it in mind in WWII to that the Japanese and germans who were murdering us were really good people, and that we really shouldn't hold their barbaric viciousness against them, and that we really shouldn't think that MOST Japanese or MOST Germans felt that way.
It was just the "bad apples" we encountered at Auschwitz and Bataan.
20779. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:49:45 AM
See, "real" German Naziism was a peaceful, Love-thy-Neighbor, free-sex kind of affair.
But it all got "twisted around" by a few fanatical "bad apples."
20780. angel-five - 9/12/2001 3:50:56 AM
It's just like a fugue, isn't it?
20781. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:51:39 AM
You know, Irv-- Bad Apples, like the thousands of degenerate Egyptian rat-people chanting "Bullseye! Bullseye!" in Cairo.
Certainly the actions of a few hundred thousand degenerate rat-people should not be taken to reflect on the six or seven dozen "Good Arabs" who just want to be left alone to build houses, tend farms, raise families, and suicide-bomb the Jews.
20782. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:53:16 AM
I kept agreeing with you about what? The need to avoid killing innocents? Not I.About two wrongs not making a right? Sure. But what does that have to do with this? Perhaps I should have mentioned I considered your comment on wrongs and rights a non sequitur.
I am utterly uninterested in "wrong" or "right" in this discussion. I have no need to convince anyone that what was done to us was wrong, or that what we do in response is right. I don't care about the justice of their cause, or that our retaliation might incur disapproval.
You just said you didn't mind killing civilians of a nation that harbors terrorists, I just supposed that you meant to do so as a part of the act of killing the terrorists.
Yes.
20783. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:53:38 AM
Achnad says:
"I am a peaceful, non-fanatical Arabic Islamic fundamentalist. I don't want to hurt America; I LOVE America! America the Beautiful! Really, if I had my way, my brethren would stop blowing up American buildings and concentrate on the important things in life, like butchering Jewish children in the street."
20784. CalGal - 9/12/2001 3:55:35 AM
Man, they have an amateur video of a doctor who was working there. It is unbelievable.
20785. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:58:54 AM
Crazed Palestinian Gunman
Decries Hurtful Stereotypes
HEBRON, WEST BANKIn an emotionally charged press conference Monday, crazed Palestinian gunman Faisal al Hamad expressed frustration over the stereotyping of his people.
Above: Faisal al Hamad, seen here shrieking anti-U.S. slogans, says that "not every crazed Palestinian gunman is exactly alike."
"As a crazed Palestinian gunman, I feel hurt by the negative portrayal of my people in the media," said al Hamad, 31, a Hebron-area terrorist maniac. "None of us should have to live with stereotyping and ignorance."
He then began screaming and firing into a busload of Israeli schoolchildren.
20786. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:59:32 AM
"It hurts that in this supposedly enlightened day and age, people still make assumptions about other people," al Hamad said. "We should not rely on simple generalizations. Each crazed Palestinian gunman is an individual."
Al Hamad said that he himself has often been unfairly stereotyped. "Any time I enter a crowded temple with fully loaded AK-47s in both hands, people just assume I'm going to open fire," he said. "That really hurts."
"Yes, I sometimes do gun people down in the name of the One True God," he noted. "But there is so much more to me."
Several weeks ago, al Hamad was again the victim of stereotyping during a vacation he took with his family to Washington, D.C.
"When we arrived at the airport in Washington, security guards detained us for more than 12 hours, just because I had 140 pounds of plastic explosives strapped to my chest," al Hamad said. "Do you think they would have called the FBI if I weren't a crazed Palestinian who's on their Ten Most Wanted List? I don't think so."
20787. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 3:59:46 AM
Al Hamad said his vacation was ruined when federal agents seized a crate of chemical weapons he had brought into the U.S. as a gift for a friend in New York.
"I explained to them that the weapons were a birthday present for the blind cleric Sayid al Farouq, a good friend of mine from high school," he said. "But they did not believe me and took me into federal custody for nine weeks. Again, it's a case of people jumping to conclusions on the basis of skin color. And that can be very frustrating."
Above: When this truck blew up in Jerusalem on Yom Kippur last year, Israeli officials suspected PLO involvement. "That really hurt that they would just think that right off the bat," al Hamad said.
According to al Hamad, stereotypes against crazed Palestinian gunmen don't work because they don't take into account the vast variety of proud histories and diverse cultures among them.
"There are so many different kinds of crazed Palestinian gunmen. Each of us has our own unique reasons and motivations for our bus bombings and suicide missions," he said. "No two fundamentalist agendas are alike."
Al Hamad also stressed the importance of understanding and celebrating the cultural differences between crazed Palestinian gunmen and non-crazed, non-Palestinian non-gunmen.
"All the different peoples of the world have something special to offer each other," he said. "Our diversity is our greatest strength. Let's not make a weakness out of that strength."
To emphasize his point, al Hamad fired into a crowd, killing nine.
"I'm proud to be a crazed Palestinian gunman, obviously," he said in between shouts of anti-imperialist slogans. "But I'm an individual first. I'm me. Die, Yankee infidel pig swine!"
20788. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:01:30 AM
Just a footnote to CNN & MSNBC reports that AF 1 went to Barksdale because there was a "secure command post there"...
Not true according to the Senior Warden of my parish who is a doctor & Col. USAF now on Delta alert.
She claims that "scuttlebutt" (is that an OK AF word?) was that the plane needed a safe place to refuel, air refuel being too dangerous, same for ground refuel at any where other than an AFB. While Eglin AFB in FL was available, they wanted to get Bush out of Florida where, according to reports coming in just now, the FBI has served search warrants. The plane needed but did not have a full fuel load, needed for indefinite cruising at 40,000+ feet.
Obviously, they didn't need Barksdale for "C&C" as AF 1 has full capabilities.
20789. Andonly - 9/12/2001 4:11:07 AM
Irv,
What should an innocent victim of the Crusades have thought about Christianity?
The fact of the matter is that there is a strain of Islam in the Arab world and north Africa which holds violent jihad as a fundamental tenet of the faith.
I meant to mention some time ago, but didn't get around to it, that I'd picked up a book at the recycling dump--a pamphlet from the mid-seventies put out by a Canadian student Islamic organization, and written by women. Its subject was the proper way to raise Muslim children in North American society. I thought it should be very interesting to compare these people's thoughts with those of Christian fundies and orth Jews, groups which similarly reject much of modern, secular societal norms.
(cont.)
20790. Andonly - 9/12/2001 4:11:25 AM
The book was full of sane advice, eminently practical to anyone hoping to establish an island of religious and cultural difference in a secular world. If you set aside the severe restrictions on girls, which amounted to house arrest at puberty, followed by marriage at an absurdly young age, most of it was in no way objectionable. For instance, they advised things like limiting television, encouraging family closeness and decent friendships among other religious people (even non-Muslims), avoiding a preocupation with material things, leavening restrictions with moderation and understanding of the child's unique situation--all very humane.
But then I got to this little passage about which toys children should be allowed to play with. Girls were to be provided dolls, cooking things, and stuff that would prepare them to be good Muslim mothers. Boys should be given toys that would lead them to their own future roles as adults--that is, toys reflective of suitable careers. These included cars, trucks, microscopes, whatever. And one more thing: boys could be allowed to play with toy weapons--guns and tanks and soldiers, provided they understood that such play should not be trivial or misdirected. Rather, it should prepare them for their sacred obligation to jihad.
I stress, this book was written by Muslim women in Canada, for other Muslims in North America. It was published before the fall of the Shah of Iran.
20791. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:13:30 AM
How many weapons do you need to kill thousands of American civilians in about an hour?
Answer: None. 
20792. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:16:24 AM
I linked that already, but it's a good piece.
Andonly,
Interesting; brainwashing starts early.
20793. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 4:21:16 AM
It may be "brainwashing," but let us not use that word to diminish the shared responsibility for this barbaric butchery.
Nazis were "brainwashed" too. They needed killin'-- lots of killin', in big generous heaping spoonfulls-- just the same.
20794. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:22:59 AM
WRT Cal's Slate link, my AF Col. confirms the difficulty or more precisely the special training required to turn off the jets' "fly by wire" systems and be able to fly independently. Its not as easy as Flight Simulator (which is a bitch for me)
20795. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:23:20 AM
I had no intention of diminishing it; I was merely observing.
20796. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:25:00 AM
Good piece and my wallpaper for a while!
20797. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 4:27:07 AM
Cal,
I know. But I'm sick of the "Circle of Violence" metaphor and all such morality-denying, responsibility-obfuscating, enemy-appeasing faggity State Department/Harvard yard PC bullshit.
20798. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:31:33 AM
Well, don't aim it at me. I'm always either isolationist or bomb the motherfuckers to ashes. In fact, it wasn't that many months ago that you were bitching at me for not having a more nuanced view when I expressed my extreme displeasure at the UN.
20799. AceofSpades - 9/12/2001 4:38:22 AM
My "displeasure," such as it was, concerned the fact that you actually cared what the fuck the UN did, and therefore you were moved to demand we resign from it.
20800. jexster - 9/12/2001 4:41:10 AM
"Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us. No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. I believe I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again." FDR
G'nite. God bless.
20801. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:41:22 AM
Quote accurately. I was the one with "displeasure". You were "bitching". I didn't care in the slightest about the UN; I didn't just want us to resign, I wanted us to consign them to Ouagadougou; no sense in these snotty little shits parking illegally and taking the best apartments.
20802. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 7:22:52 AM
I have twice explained how the group of at least three and probably four terrorists most probably acted to gain control on each plane (gaining access to the cockpit is ridiculously easy as anyone in commercial class knows; you can also wait for the stewardess to open the door to serve beverages). What probably distinguishes the UA flight that crashed in Pennsylvania is the passengers who understood the manic intent of the terrorists would kill all aboard and so despite the public's trained placidity and avoidance of physical violence some few passengers overcame the terrorists and stormed the cockpit. I'm sure most passengers facing the demonstration of physical harm and the terrorist's promise of hope the plane would safely land complied by doing nothing but worry. Just sat there, anxious, afraid, but compliant.
20803. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 7:41:18 AM
The doubters and cynics imagining little can be done against a man holding a box cutter, razor blade or small shank can't imagine what a leather belt wrapped around one's wrist up and around a closed fist with about 8 inches of belt hanging loose ending in the buckle can do when used to convince that man.
20804. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 7:44:15 AM
Wrap your sportcoat around the other arm and move in. The passengers - what males there were - probably had the numbers to overcome the terrorists.
20805. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 8:04:24 AM
Actually, the modus operandi is reminiscent of the way an Arab once grabbed hold of the steering wheel of an Israeli bus and sent it sailing down a cliff face near Jerusalem, killing at least a dozen people.
They put a railing next to the driver's seat after that one.
20806. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 8:12:12 AM
Actually, I must say, Muslims I knew in Nairobi were quite peaceful and did not seem to be imbued with the kind of belligerent fervor that the Aye-rabs are imbued with. I'd say it's mostly Middle Eastern Islam - Arab and Iranian - we have a problem with right now.
20807. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 8:15:42 AM
(Though there were some Muslim riots in the Mombassa area lately).
20808. RustlerPike - 9/12/2001 8:24:27 AM
My latest prediction is that Bill Clinton will come out with a surprisingly fascistic take-no-prisoners statement on this.
You see - people hate being played for fools. Barak has become more hawkish than Sharon lately wrt Yasir ('Poison Toad') Hairyfat. Clinton was the number one dupe at CD.
20809. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 9:18:24 AM
The problem is the culture. No, not of the Muslim world nor that of Islam, but the culture which defines itself in opposition, looks to religous fundamentalism as a solution, then defines itself as warriors in a jihad. As long as some few peoples remain besotted by this romance with jihad, as long as mothers and fathers encourage their sons to die for the cause (yeah, I could be talkin' about the IRA) their approval of terrorism will not abide.
One cruel solution: Up the price beyond which a people are willing to pay for the sacrifice of their young men.
20810. Andonly - 9/12/2001 9:44:54 AM
"One cruel solution: Up the price beyond which a people are willing to pay for the sacrifice of their young men."
That's right: what Thomas Friedman refers to as "Hama rules".
When Hafiz al Assad's regime was threatened by Islamist militants in Syria in the early eighties, Assad simply exterminated an entire town that harbored his would-be assassins. An estimated twenty thousand men, women, and children were systematically butchered. And that was after he had 600-1000 Muslim Brotherhood prisoners at Tadmur prison massacred, and after he had waged a year-long war of assassinations and torture against the MB in Hama and Aleppo.
Hama rules are effective. After Hama, everyone in the middle east knew Assad would stop at nothing in the pursuit of an aggressive enemy. As a result--because Assad had shown himself capable of unlimited brutality--Syria was able to quell the Lebanese civil war, which by the time Syrian forces took over had progressed into sheer criminality and stood no chance of ending but for brute force from the outside.
Because 20 thousand people were slaughtered like cockroaches in Hama, Lebanon survived, albeit as a vassal state.
I am waiting in rage and terror and resignation for the US to employ Hama rules now. What will happen if we don't? What will happen if we do?
20811. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 9:52:31 AM
On the suggestion of rubberducky I created a new thread for discussion of the tragedy and its aftermath.
20812. Andonly - 9/12/2001 9:59:49 AM
There is no security whatsoever at our local schools. It has not occurred to anyone to ban backpacks, or post a single guard on school grounds, or control access in any way.
One parent told me this morning that her 13 year old son had seen the dancing in the streets in Hebron. "I wish they wouldn't broadcast that," she said. "Now he just wants to go out and kill someone."
I've been to town hall to inquire what plans there are to at least discuss local security issues; no one has a clue. Bear in mind, we're a bedroom community one half-hour away from NY by car or train. We can see Manhattan from our willage. And there's a huge immigrant population here: I see lots of (apparently Arab) Muslim kids in the schools. They may become targets of rage in the high school and middle school. Moreover, there apparently really was a van full of explosives intercepted on the George Washington bridge. This shit may not be done with, or there may be copycat attacks yet to come, especially once we begin bombing whomever we begin bombing.
20813. christipeters - 9/12/2001 11:26:33 AM
A couple of the reports from here - http://monitor.airsecurity.com/ :
5:11a UNCONFIRMED: Taliban offer to consider extradition of Osama bin-Laden
10:10a Intercepted calls between bin-Laden backed persons discussed hitting two U.S. targets.
(times are Central Time Zone)
(I haven't caught up on the posts here, so my apologies if I am repeating what someone else has already posted)
20814. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 11:30:42 AM
I bet we'll have to endure Jesse Jackson attempting to negotiate Bin Laden's release and then there will be the inevitable weepy Barbara Walters special following.
20815. ronski - 9/12/2001 11:30:54 AM
The NJ van did not contain explosives as originally reported.
20816. christipeters - 9/12/2001 11:42:10 AM
sorry Pelle - I posted before I read your #20811
20817. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 12:26:20 PM
Some pilot talk on the hijackings
20818. Oceans11 - 9/12/2001 12:41:49 PM
Well, well.
Any take on the Shrub's handling of this tragedy, thus far?
Mine is not pretty; Shrub badly mishandled this true national crisis. For nearly 12 hours after the attacks, Shrub literally disappeared from view. When he finally surfaced, at a time when the US needed reassurance and heartfelt words, we were treated to a very sterile and canned statement about "good" versus "evil" with a little Christian jingoism thrown in.
It is sad that Shrub couldn't deliver a few words from his heart instead of reading a poorly written and emotionless speech from a teleprompter. It appeared as if he just didn't care.
Leadership, effective leadership, requires presence and emotional involvement. Shrub provided neither.
20819. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 1:06:32 PM
Ace:
I just saw your ignorant comments to me from earlier.
You fail to realise that Arabs are less than half of the Islamic world.
And the countries which support or allow terrorism are a small portion of the Arab world.
And the terrorist supporting nations prominently include Iran and Afganistan, which are NOT Arab nations.
But sure... have it your way... every Muslim is an Arab, and every Arab is a terrorist. Why should something as mundane as facts get in the way of your rant.
As I said, this is not about Islam, and it is not about Arabs. It is about the terrorists who have targeted the United States.
And that is my last word to you. I will not abide your name-calling. I know you will post 20 times to try and prove some sort of point. But each post will make you look sillier.
20820. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 1:22:24 PM
No doubt most here would agree with you IrvingSnodgrass, and on reminding them you are Muslim all save one here would doubtlessly agree.
20821. Wombat - 9/12/2001 1:26:48 PM
Oceans:
That's what we get for "electing" a lightweight.
20822. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 1:28:51 PM
Here in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation, there is shock and sadness and sympathy for the USA. I have seen no signs of any anti-American feelings whatsoever. Indonesia's president wrote Bush offering Indonesia's assistance in whatever form needed to help eradicate terrorism.
But we're Muslims, so we're the enemy. It's simple.
20823. judithathome - 9/12/2001 1:33:28 PM
Only to the simpleminded.
20824. Wombat - 9/12/2001 1:34:36 PM
Or the Generalizer Bunny.
20825. Oceans11 - 9/12/2001 1:37:24 PM
>That's what we get for "electing" a lightweight.
Freedom didn't come under attack yesterday. It died at the hands of Antonin Scalia nine months ago.
The script used by Shrub was borrowed from his father. At the start of the Gulf War, Poppy claimed we were making democracy "safe" for Kuwait.
Last night, Shrub claimed we were attacked because of the US was the "beacon of freedom and opportunity."
We won the Gulf War but Kuwait is hardly a democracy. We'll exact our retribution for yesterday's attack but it doubtful "freedom and oppotunity" will be enhanced in this country.
20826. wonkers2 - 9/12/2001 1:51:12 PM
FU, Even the Israelis don't retaliate with mass attacks on civilians. They use more of a rifle shot approach as opposed to a blunderbuss. And many thoughtful people believe that their policy isn't getting them any closer to where they want to be.
20827. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:00:28 PM
I watched only a about 10 minutes yesterday
to see view of towers falling
and then there was a shot of Bush in school room with
little kids as someone tells him the news
I had heard the expression before, but had never seen it myself but then I did see this guy
look so very much like a deer caught in the headlights of truck at night.
I did not listen to him read some speech to the nation.
I did think of how Pres. Clinton would have
dealt with the same situation.
This thing is WAY OVER THE HEAD of Bush.
20828. theDiva - 9/12/2001 2:02:56 PM
Several taken into custody in connection with the attack.
20829. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:03:09 PM
Irving re. your post 20819
I can only guess to whom you are responding
but admire your patience in a response.
Are the Arabs en mass now being accused of
the Trade Ctr attack?
20830. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:04:26 PM
I keep imagaging the ripple effect of having
every major airport in USA shut down.
20831. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 2:09:32 PM
Max:
In this thread, it has been made clear that all Arabs and all Muslims are responsible.
This is the ignorance which is causing the sickening backlash against Arab Americans -- the same backlash that CalGal insisted wouldn't happen. Arab-Americans are being beaten up and their places of business threatened.
The enemy is not Islam and it is not Arabs. The enemy is the despicable cowards who planned and executed the barbaric attack on innocent Americans. Anger and revenge should be focused solely against them.
20832. Oceans11 - 9/12/2001 2:11:01 PM
>This thing is WAY OVER THE HEAD of Bush.
Most of life's basic tasks exceed Shrub's abilities.
I don't think this comes as a big shock to most Americans. I am surprised, however, at the near-paralysis and disappearance of Shrub's vaunted cabinet and National Security Staff.
What will be interesting is this administration's military response and how it meshes with Colin Powell's so-called doctrine.
20833. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:18:04 PM
Irv -- if it's any consolation, the US government is stressing that this is not the work of all Moslems or Arabs, but of specific terrorists.
The most inflamatory thing has been the same video and pictures of people in East Jerusalem celebrating yesterday when they heard the news. I've seen the same scene pictured in the newspaper and replayed on several network news reports.
20834. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:24:48 PM
Of course, the story that Indiana linked in the other thread from the Paki religious leaders doesn't help much: Wednesday September 12, 7:36 PM
U.S. yet to see the worst, says Jamiat
By Indo-Asian News Service
Quetta, Sep 12 (IANS) The United States is paying the price for its anti-Islamic policies but the "worst is still to come", the leader of a Pakistani religious group said Wednesday.
Online news agency quoted Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam leader Maulana Abdul Ghafoor Haideri as saying Muslims across the world had decided not to "spare the international terrorist responsible for making their lives miserable".
He was commenting on Tuesday's deadly terror attacks in New York and Washington that killed thousands when hijacked planes crashed into the World Trade Centre and on the Pentagon.
He accused the U.S. of pursuing "terrorist activities" against Muslims in Palestine, Iraq, Bosnia and elsewhere.
Another Jamiat leader, Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, said the attacks were a retaliation by 1.75 billion Muslims of the world "who have remained the victims of U.S. aggression and hostilities
But that's like Jerry Falwell speaking on behalf of all Christians.
20835. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:25:27 PM
Except that Jerry Falwell has advocated bombing anybody, so it isn't like him.
But you understand my point.
20836. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:25:39 PM
Why do you suppose people in East Jerusalem
would celebrate a terrorist attack on USA?
20837. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:25:46 PM
has not advocated...sheesh...
20838. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:28:20 PM
Because they are hate us. Because they see it as apart of their campaign against Israel and us. Does that mean all Palestinians joined them?
Or all Arabs?
Or all Moslems?
20839. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:29:20 PM
interesting ( to me) info is that two people on two different airplanes spoke to someone
via their cell phones.
and.
will the "black boxes" remain intact
after the planes did not?
pieces of info like shards in a dig will now
begin to be gathered.
20840. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:37:03 PM
I read somewhere that the Pennsylvania black box will probably be recovered. And that one may offer insight because of the speculated struggle between crew, passengers and the terrorists.
20841. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 2:45:05 PM
well one piece of info will be the list of passangers which the airline has.
the cell phone woman alledgedy implied passangers were told a bomb was on the plane
hi jackers probably told them plane would
be taken somewhere , not into side of a bldg.
20842. Oceans11 - 9/12/2001 2:47:20 PM
Be aware there is a possibility the Pennsylvania downed aircraft may have been shot down.
20843. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 2:48:48 PM
excerpted from an AP dispatch:
Ray Downey, who led New York firefighters to Oklahoma City in 1995 to help look for victims in the rubble from the bombing there, was one of at least three top New York City fire officials who died in the Trade Center collapse.
20844. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 2:53:45 PM
This afternoon there was a memorial service here, at the Royal Castle, attended by the royal family, government ministers and members of parliament. About now there is a public service in the Stockholm cathedral and many other churches throughout the country. When I drove home a couple of hours ago all flags were at half staff.
Friday prayers at the Stockholm mosque will include a condemnation of the attack. Friday is also declared an official day of mourning in Europe.
These are small things, I know, but yet....
20845. glendajean - 9/12/2001 2:56:17 PM
Pelle, because we rarely follow on our news what happens in other countries in much depth, then I assume European countries wouldn't give that much response to what happens in this country. Top of the news, yes, but not hours on end.
We now have BBC America and that's all they were talking about. It is interesting to see responses like the one you describe.
20846. Indiana Jones - 9/12/2001 2:57:00 PM
They're not small, Pelle. America is taking stock of and will remember who is our friends and who isn't in this hour.
20847. christipeters - 9/12/2001 2:58:30 PM
(the below times are CDT)
1:19p Rash of bomb threats against U.S. businesses and sympathizers in Cape Town, South Africa since yesterday. In northern Nigeria, where most of the population is Muslim, there have celebrations involving small numbers of people over yesterday's attacks.
1:00p Latest ATCSSC advisory from the FAA's ATC Command center in Virginia: "ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 010 DCC 09/12/2001 NAS STATUS UPDATE MESSAGE: CURRENTLY THE NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM (NAS) IS IN OPERATION FOR MILITARY, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND MEDICAL EVACUATION FLIGHTS ONLY. THE RESUMPTION OF NORMAL OPERATIONS IN THE NAS IS EXPECTED TO BE A LENGTHY PROCESS WITH NO ESTABLISHED TIMELINE. ONE OF THE STEPS REQUIRED IS TO DETERMINE THE STATUS OF EACH AIRPORTS' SECURITY AND OPERATIONAL READINESS. COORDINATION WITH AIR TRAFFIC AND MILITARY FACILITIES MUST BE ACCOMPLISHED TO RESUME NAS OPERATIONS AT AIRPORTS IDENTIFIED AS MEETING THE SECURITY AND OPERATIONAL CRITERIA. WHEN IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED THAT A SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF AIRPORTS CAN RESUME OPERATIONS A NATIONAL TELCON WILL BE CONDUCTED. THE RESUMPTION OF NAS SERVICES AND PLANNING CONFERENCES WILL BE ANNOUNCED VIA COORDINATION WITH EACH ARTCC AND PUBLISHED ADVISORIES."
12:56p FBI has found the flight data recorder ("black box") from the aircraft that crashed near Pittsburgh, PA
20848. theDiva - 9/12/2001 2:59:46 PM
it's not small, Pelle, and it's comforting. I for one appreciate it.
Christi, thanks for the updates.
20849. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:26:10 PM
Irv, your #20819 and the next one...few people here consider Arabs, Muslims, and terrorists to be one and to do so is stupid. My fear is that people will begin to have such xenophobia or rather increase the existing xenophobia. Fortunately, reports of harassment of middle east, eastern and subcontinent people, who are here in the US, are very rare, at least for the moment.
20850. pseudoerasmus - 9/12/2001 3:27:33 PM
The Taliban may be willing, finally, to hand over Usama bin Ladin. But it's also possible that the Taliban don't know where he is. It's been reported in the Pak press that Usama bin Ladin moves from camp to camp across Afghanistan with millions of dollars worth of sophisticated communications equipment.
20851. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 3:32:32 PM
Communications in Afghanistan means radio. If he uses the stuff he can be located.
20852. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:32:47 PM
Irv..#20831
I have not heard of these attacks in the US, but have been home only a short time and near a tv. I totally agree with your post. Here in Seattle things seem to be pretty calm, so far. I pray it continues.
20853. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:38:58 PM
I remember there was a point when the Taliban said bin Laden was not in Afghanistan but when he was, they would hand him over. Now they say he is there but has been stripped of all communication equipment. I must have missed a step there.
20854. theDiva - 9/12/2001 3:40:09 PM
you mean the ones where the lying SOBs are giving succor to this monster?
20855. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 3:42:48 PM
I, of course, completely agree with Irv, and I should have stated it earlier. After all I have lived and worked in the Middle East for thirteen years. To equal Muslims or Arabs with terrorists is the same as equalling the "Patriot" movements that produced Timothy McVeigh with Americans.
20856. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 3:44:27 PM
Pelle, interesting , your post.
It is not that I am uninterested in European
thinking and media writing...it's because it is
all but non existent.
Except for occassional big stories in
places like Newsweek mag. or New Yorker Mag.
We in USA think we are informed , but mostly we just
get some sound bite of some extreme happening
somewhere in the wide world.
Very little follow up or continuity.
e.g. whats happening in Croatia, ?Ireland,?
Lebanon, ?Basque Spain, etc etc etc.?
20857. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:46:01 PM
Pelle,
Very well put!
20858. theDiva - 9/12/2001 3:46:32 PM
Yes.
20860. PelleNilsson - 9/12/2001 3:49:21 PM
Thanks.
20861. Absensia - 9/12/2001 3:49:34 PM
Yes, Diva, I think that's it...
20862. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 3:49:46 PM
NATO invokes mutual defense...
BRUSSELS, Belgium (Reuters) - NATO (news - web sites) invoked a mutual defense clause for the first time in its history Wednesday, opening the way for a possible collective military response to Tuesday's attacks on the United States.
``The (NATO) Council agreed that if it is determined that this was an attack directed from abroad against the United States, it shall be regarded as an action covered by Article V of the Washington Treaty, which states that an attack against one ally is an attack against them all,'' Secretary-General George Robertson told a news conference.
The article commits each of the 19 member nations to take ''such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.''
Asked whether this meant NATO would take joint action, Robertson said: ``The country attacked has to make the decisions, it has to be the one that asks for help. ... The U.S. is still assessing the evidence available. They are the ones to make that judgement.''
In Washington, Secretary of State Colin Powell (news -web sites) said the statement would ``tee up'' a possible collective response once the United States identified the perpetrators and their sponsors.
20863. Absensia - 9/12/2001 4:17:18 PM
Oh, sorry, I remember why the Taliban didn't hand bin Laden over since they said announced, in 1996, that he was there. There was no evidence he'd done anything wrong. And, everyone knows that the Afghanistan court system and demand for equal justice under the law, puts all Western countries' legal systems to shame! RME.
20864. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:18:29 PM
I predict the word that one of the terrorists had a bomb will be proven false. Yes, he may have said he had a bomb, but analysis will stunningly prove that the passengers were cowed by threats, demonstration of violence, and the hope tendered to them that the plane would land in a safe place away from the US.
I would hope this occasions all to rethink the widely held belief that compliance to the hijacker's demands saves lives. If some poor, demented soul wants to fly to Miami or Taiwan or Germany he usually does so alone, relying on the plane's pilots to take him there. Those who come along with their own pilot will take us all to hell if we let them.
I also hold that Air Force One was never in danger. Yes, the President as a target was on board but the plane itself never a target, and to maintain so is politically motivated (I doubt President Bush is party to that charade). And the idiots who said Camp David was targetted should be left there to rake up autumn leaves.
20865. CalGal - 9/12/2001 4:22:56 PM
I would hope this occasions all to rethink the widely held belief that compliance to the hijacker's demands saves lives.
I completely agree with this, and I wish that there weren't so much emphasis put on compliance as a response to any violent or hostage situation.
20866. glendajean - 9/12/2001 4:24:07 PM
I think that the White House or the Capitol were targets makes more sense.
Loss of either would have been even more stunning.
20867. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:24:16 PM
The extreme expression of that compliance is the Stockholm Syndrome.
20868. judithathome - 9/12/2001 4:24:37 PM
Has anyone on this thread, since there doesn't seem to be anyone on the other thread who did, heard about the head of Saudi Intelligence abruptly quitting his job yesterday?
20869. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:25:30 PM
I say frankly, with my wife in tears beside me and even reports of the Pentagon being hit I said no, not the White House, not Lincoln's house.
20870. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:26:13 PM
That was the only time I lost it.
20871. glendajean - 9/12/2001 4:31:28 PM
The White House been gutted twice before. Once by the British and once by Harry Truman. The only thing original are the stone walls and some wood used as paneling in the State Dining Room and the China Room on the ground floor.
I know that, and yet, I agree. I am not sure that I could have fathomed our losing it. I used to eat my lunch in Lafayette Park across the street. It is an incredibly powerful symbol.
William Seale, its historian, wrote that it is an embodiment of an ideal developed over time, and that ideal is what we value, not the old timbers first constructed when Washington was president, and later under Monroe during the first re-building.
20872. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:40:52 PM
Parliament House or Westminster Cathedral? The choice given by firemen to Churchill during the blitz. I say no structure within the US compares to our White House as the history and expression of We, the People.
20873. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 4:45:09 PM
"I would hope this occasions all to rethink the widely held belief that compliance to the hijacker's demands saves lives."
Prior to this, how often had a hijacking lead to any more than a handful of casualties? Even including only ones by Mideast terrorists, can't recall any where all, or even a majority of passengers, were killed.
20874. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:52:56 PM
Raskolnikov, true, so this occasions all to rethink the widely held belief that compliance to the hijacker's demands saves lives.
20875. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 4:54:28 PM
Passengers in China stormed, disarmed and beat the few who tried to hijack a plane to Taiwan. Guess they didn't all receive the benefit of sensitivity training.
20876. concerned - 9/12/2001 4:55:17 PM
20822. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/01 6:28:51 PM
Here in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation,
there is shock and sadness and sympathy for the
USA. I have seen no signs of any anti-American
feelings whatsoever. Indonesia's president wrote
Bush offering Indonesia's assistance in whatever
form needed to help eradicate terrorism.
But we're Muslims, so we're the enemy. It's simple.
How do self-pity monsters such as yourself survive in the world?
20877. concerned - 9/12/2001 4:58:35 PM
I did think of how Pres. Clinton would have
dealt with the same situation.
I'd appreciate it if you'd enlighten me. I tend to break into snickering when thinking how Clowntoon would have 'handled' this.
20878. Raskolnikov - 9/12/2001 4:58:37 PM
In the future, I agree. But my point is just that those who did nothing with the belief that it would all turn out ok in the end, while wrong, were not stupid, or necessarily cowardly.
On the Pittsburgh crash, it sounds like the pilot keyed open the intercom, allowing the passengers to hear what was being planned - which convinced three of them to do something about it. A rare display of heroism in this day and age, and it chokes me up to think about it, but they had knowledge that passengers on other planes didn't seem to have.
20879. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:04:28 PM
I don't know the conditions under which flight attendants reportedly had their throats slashed to get the pilot and co-pilot out of the cockpit. If true, what were the men among the passengers doing? Turning their heads away in disgust? Or shame?
And, it seems to me (hell, I've said it over and over again) that the terrorists had to have killed the pilot and co-pilot to allow their own to fly the plane. Isn't that proof enough those men must be taken down at any cost?
20880. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:05:54 PM
Concerned, re 20876
"How do self-pity monsters such as yourself survive in the world?"
That was not only uncalled for, but shows how shallow and meanspirited you are. IMO.
20881. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:06:59 PM
And only three acted? Three?!
20882. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:08:33 PM
Re. 20879 -
Perhaps the passengers rationalized that their best chances of surviving the ordeal consisted of passivity, and/or within their small numbers, nobody with a normal amount of courage existed.
20883. Indiana Jones - 9/12/2001 5:09:13 PM
Heroism in the face of terror
Glick, who celebrated his 31st birthday on Sept. 3, told his wife, Lyzbeth, that he hoped she would have a good life and would take care of their 3-month old baby girl, Hurwitt said.
20884. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:09:53 PM
From what I have heard, flight attendants have been taught to say they do not have keys to the cockpit door. Clearly, if I know it, so could the terrorists and might have slit one's throat to get another to produce the key and open the door.
20885. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:10:17 PM
Re. 20880 -
Absensia -
I was poking fun at Irving's big self-pity sham.
Perhaps you should try being less narrow minded and moralistic.
20886. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:11:19 PM
Right Scott...only three, and only men? I don't understand that. Perhaps only three could talk without being overheard...who knows, but seems strange.
20887. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:12:11 PM
Yes, yes, yes. The passengers rationalized their best chance to surviving was to be passive, despite every evidence to the contrary, not because the passengers were rational but because they were conditioned to act that way -avoid physical contact, especially violence, is the prime operating principle of modern American life.
20888. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:12:59 PM
Concerned...and perhaps not.
20889. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:13:46 PM
So, Glick knew he would die. And he acted knowing he would die. That's bravery.
20890. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:16:42 PM
Ok; I'm an insensitive jerk. It's more interesting than singing 'Kumbayah', IAC.
20891. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:18:15 PM
But such speculation as to the actual situation, how the terrorists acted and what could have been done pales in comparison to the pressing matter of whether or not we should nuke Afghanistan and will the Wokkan allow our troops passage into Kabul, or how are we to act against - well, hell, we don't even yet know who the terrorists are or from where or who sponsored them, but many are hot to act and denied action they'll talk, and talk, and talk about how they'll bomb, and bomb, and bomb.
20892. ScottLoar - 9/12/2001 5:19:04 PM
I think it's Goombayah.
20893. judithathome - 9/12/2001 5:21:23 PM
My husband long ago told me that if we were ever in a highjack situation or something similar, he would move on them...and I believe he would.
20894. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:22:29 PM
Concerned: IAC?
Scott, yep...and that scares me. Oops..there's a terrorist over there ------> . let's nuke the entire country!
20895. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:23:46 PM
IAC = In any case.
20896. Absensia - 9/12/2001 5:25:27 PM
Ohhh, okay...can I call you insjer for short? ;-)
20897. judithathome - 9/12/2001 5:26:21 PM
IAC: Ignorant Asinine Comment
20898. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 5:34:29 PM
I thought it was "Ignorant Asswipe Concerned", like his full name or something. Doesn't quite have the ring "JFK" or "LBJ", does it?
20899. concerned - 9/12/2001 5:44:58 PM
Gee, thanks, guys. I didn't mean to upset you by putting down 'goombayah', honest.
20900. mgleason - 9/12/2001 5:49:48 PM
'Goombayah' must be the Italian version.
20901. EricCartman - 9/12/2001 5:50:35 PM
I kid because I love, IAC. And you're right about "Kumbayah", a silly-ass hootenanny song if ever there were one.
20902. CalGal - 9/12/2001 5:57:59 PM
I definitely would fight in the event of a hijacking; they count on you being terrified.
But it's not only hijacking. Hell, the cops tell you not to fight or resist during a mugging; all they want is your money. Even if that's true (and I'm sure it is for most of them) who the hell are the cops to tell us not to resist? They just don't want the paperwork?
Far too many women are told to cooperate with rapists, too.
I could deal with it being part of the human condition, but it pisses me off when it gets to the point that you have to justify any action other than meek compliance with a criminal.
20903. Absensia - 9/12/2001 6:02:38 PM
I agree Cal...I've heard male cops say, "In the case of rape, just lay [sic]there and enjoy it, there is nothing you can do." Grrrr. But women self defense trainers don't say that, nor do karate sensis.
20904. mgleason - 9/12/2001 6:05:21 PM
I hope I'd have the fortitude to fight back. To hell with cooperation, that just makes it easier for the malefactors.
20905. CalGal - 9/12/2001 6:07:13 PM
Well, even without the "enjoy it" part, they are definitely encouraging women to be passive. I mean, when women are asking their rapists to wear condoms, something is going wrong. I know there are times when resistance simply isn't possible--for example, the rape depicted on The Sopranos had no weapon involved, but I couldn't see a moment when she could have fought back. But in many cases, fighting is possible, and the stats apparently show that women who fight back have much better odds of both surviving and escaping rape.
I don't know what muggings are like, but apparently cops think that most muggers are mild little guys just carrying guns to get money and that really, if you just let him have the money he won't panic and shoot you. So do they lecture you if you actually fight back?
And the wacko shootings, when a single person walks into a crowded restaurant and start shooting (as opposed to the school shootings in a more open area), why don't more people at least consider jumping him, rather than huddling and waiting to die?
Again, I know that some of this is just a natural human response and lord knows how I'd respond in some cases (although in both attempted rapes I fought back and escaped as a result). It is the authoritative advice to comply that annoys me.
20906. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 6:18:50 PM
I couldn't and don't pretend to have read everything in this thread, but the posts I've read attacking Irv are despicable.
As far as what anyone on any flight did, I wouldn't dare judge them after the fact with what little I know, and probably knowing every detail. I would hope I wouldn't be a passive victim, but I haven't been there to know what I'd do. People like Keoni with military knowledge and experience I would certainly not doubt would have confidence to act, but I couldn't say that for the average untried/untrained plane passenger. I will say that if I were mugged I don't ever have a thing on my person I'd be willing to risk my life for.
20907. judithathome - 9/12/2001 6:25:57 PM
No kidding...I'd give up everything to someone holding a knife to me. And I'm sure Keonis experience is what makes him sure he would act; he would know what to do where someone without military or fighting skills might not, as you said.
20908. CalGal - 9/12/2001 6:30:02 PM
Well, good. Now that you've defended a whole host of people who weren't attacked, why not post on the subject at hand? And no, I'm not speaking of Irv. The only person who attacked Irv was Ace, despite your insinuation.
20909. Absensia - 9/12/2001 6:30:59 PM
I think it was last night (it all runs together,) there was a discussion about Logan and apparently the feds did a long investigation over the last 18 months...they sited logan for over a 100 security violations, including being able to get on board without a ticket, being able to get on board with weapons, and being able to get by airport metal detectors while carrying guns. As I recall, the report came out in August.
20910. CalGal - 9/12/2001 6:32:39 PM
It always amused the hell out of me to go into an airport and see those signs warning me not to go to some obscure country--was it Nigeria? Do you think they'd ever post signs saying "Logan failed all security tests?" Hell, no. That'd be bad for business.
20911. judithathome - 9/12/2001 6:38:36 PM
The only person who attacked Irv was Ace, despite your insinuation.
Ah, no...concerned also made snotty remarks about Irv.
20912. Absensia - 9/12/2001 6:39:00 PM
I like the idea. The state department issues warnings about which countries are dangerous for American tourists. The State Department could also list on it's web page which airports are dangerous
because of low security.
20913. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 6:40:45 PM
Cal, you're an illiterate idiot. My remarks about Irv weren't directed to you. And I'll post on whatever the hell I want based on what I wish to respond to, not based on your dramatic edicts; and if Robert wants to move them, great.
20914. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 7:27:08 PM
Wouldn't dream of it. Carry on, ladies.
20915. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 7:41:58 PM
This has been a fascinating thread, Robert. I certainly don't want to disrupt it.
My first post was simply general remarks on what I'm trying to absorb from what I've read. The first paragraph is a response to several ugly posts on what I think are legitimate and certainly not unselfish remarks of Irv's. The second was not directed at any particular statement or individual criticism of the passengers, but on the recent discussion as a whole. I agree with Rask's 20878.
Where Cal got the idea that post was just to her is anyone's guess.
20916. bubbaette - 9/12/2001 7:52:08 PM
I can't stand this. Seeing the people on tv looking for their relatives, knowing that untold thousands are in the rubble and that each of these deaths radiates out to untold family and friends in endless circles of grief. It's stunning, and doesn't seem right to keep dressing in the morning to go to work or to cook dinner at night.
As for retribution, I think it's necessary. But it's also essential to be sure that we are exacting retribution against those responsible.
20917. MaxMacks - 9/12/2001 7:53:55 PM
just read Yahoo news saying Dumbya Bush
was critized for hiding out in a bunker
in Nebraska.
I had not heard that , but then I am not glued to TV or radio.
what I found amusing was White House press
then saying reason Bush did not go back to
White House is because white house and Bushy
were targeted.
Now if they knew who the targets were
would they not have shot down the planes heading for WTC.
Triage that sort of thing
Like the Pentagon spokeman who said
not much damage to Pentagon as part of it was smoking and on fire.
20918. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 7:56:53 PM
I know what you mean, Bubba. It's amazing what a pall it's placed on my entire workplace (and home, for that matter), lasting two days. I told the kids we had to get back to normal tomorrow. I don't think any of us will be able to stand it if we don't. In a way I think we should have stayed home today. Some schools did.
20919. IrvingSnodgrass - 9/12/2001 7:58:05 PM
It's ok... I've decided this site no longer holds any appeal for me anyway. Ace and concerned's totally unprovoked attacks are just the icing on the cake.
20920. arkymalarky - 9/12/2001 8:02:21 PM
I would ask you to reconsider, Irv, but I emailed once asking you to return, and I totally understand and respect how you feel. Please don't stay out of touch with us.
20921. mgleason - 9/12/2001 8:03:31 PM
You know, Irv, there are assholes everywhere. Certainly there are many more people who value you and your contributions.
20922. bubbaette - 9/12/2001 8:08:31 PM
Arky
I didn't even find out about it til about 3 yesterday afternoon. I was at home and hadn't turned on the tv or radio and so didn't hear til Mike came home.
As for Bush going to Omaha, I don't see how anyone can fault him for that. The four attacks had all the earmarks of war with the great possibility of more targets. I would suspect that getting everyone out of Washington when the city is attacked is SOP, and I hate to see anyone trying to get political milage out of that.
20923. bubbaette - 9/12/2001 8:10:14 PM
Irv
I agree that Concerned and Ace's tone is obnoxious and detimental. I hate to see them drive off more toughtful posters.
20924. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:12:51 PM
I'll be getting back to normal ASAP. I'm down in Dallas next week, assuming air travel is restored.
20925. Absensia - 9/12/2001 8:15:38 PM
Irv,
I agree...please don't leave. You bring a lot of enlightment and knowledge to me and no doubt a lot of others. Besides, you are a fellow mariners' fan.
I, and others, have been concerned about the xenophobic backlash. Don't let it get you, and please stay...you can help fight the dolts.
20926. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:16:39 PM
Don't give them the satisfaction, Irv.
20927. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:21:10 PM
xenophobic backlash...I hardly paid attention to it.
20928. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:24:06 PM
Well, possibly that's because you didn't feel it was directed at you, maybe.
20929. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:26:29 PM
Gee, if I try I can get one more qualifier in there, even.
20930. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:26:55 PM
Yes, but remember that this is an on-line forum. As much as I can appreciate and be sensitive regarding the high emotions of the past couple of days, one has to remember that this is an Internet forum, and ignore the trolls.
20931. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:29:45 PM
Sometimes that is easier said than done. But you are right, in the whole scheme of things, they are meaningless.
20932. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:34:32 PM
I have been on the receiving end of some pretty mean attacks on the Internet. So I speak from experience.
20933. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:36:24 PM
Don't we all...
Say, when you next come to Dallas, pick up one of those Real Estate freebies and check out the listings. Las Colinas is a good area near Irving.
20934. Erin R. - 9/12/2001 8:52:26 PM
The company has an office on Las Colinas.
20935. judithathome - 9/12/2001 8:58:13 PM
That's cool! It's really nice there.
20936. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 8:58:37 PM
All the above, Irving. Please don't go. We need you.
20937. robertjayb - 9/12/2001 9:37:21 PM
An instructive post lifted in toto from a pilot in another forum (sue me):
...The news report of suicide pilots who were perhaps trained at Embry-Riddle in Daytona Beach is intriguing. That was an angle I had not considered and it would explain rudimentary knowlege and proficiency that could translate into the ability to successfully execute these atrocities. Embry-Riddle University, FlightSafety International, Inc., and several others have primary training centers in Florida. These centers have always been very popular with foreign students -- wealthy foreign students. They are VERY expensive. In the mid-70s FlightSafety's Vero Beach facility had a very high enrollment of Iranian flight students. FlightSafety offers a program that can take a student from scratch through, at least, Learjet-type airplanes. They don't care who -- and this is not necessarily a criticism -- a student is, but they do care about ability to pay AND meeting the competency requirements of the program.
I think the news media i jumped to conclusions on the calls made from the aircraft to loved ones. I think it will come out that these "cell phone" calls were actually made from the seat-back AT&T or GTE onboard flightphones. A cell phone is virtually useless above a couple of thousand feet.
Along that same line, the conversation attributed to Barara Olson in which she said that "the pilot" was in the rear of the airplane may or may not have been significant. There are often deadheading, or pass-riding pilots in the passenger cabin in uniform. There are often jump-seating pilots in the cockpit. The singular, if accurately quoted, would lead me to believe that if "the pilot" were one of the crew he was in the cabin to check things out (I have big problems with a pilot going back during a disturbance, but I wasn't there), not to surrender. Again, the CVR tape should clarify that point.
20938. sakonige - 9/12/2001 9:56:34 PM
Message # 20919
Bye. I don't know if I will ever see you again, but I have enjoyed knowing you. I'm sorry for the times I've offended you with my bitter observations.
20939. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:00:41 PM
CalGal envisions herself as Passenger 57. This is hilarious!
20940. ronski - 9/12/2001 10:10:54 PM
Irv,
I would also ask you please not to go. I don't post in Language very often only because of my comparative ignorance of the subject, but I read it always. And I can't imagine this place without you in International and other threads.
Still, if you do, I will try to keep in touch. I don't have much history with you, but you have struck me as one of the most interesting and decent people I have ever found in my relatively brief experience with the web.
Take care, guy.
20941. ronski - 9/12/2001 10:16:22 PM
sakonige,
I don't often interact with you. However, I hope you may have noticed that I am one of the people around here who is most interested in and most respectful of the Native people you often speak for.
I cannot understand how you could dismiss 20,000 lives as mere bourgeois trash. Perhaps you are unaware of the large percentage of African-American and Hispanic people, and probably some Mohawk, who died in the Towers.
With respect, I ask your reply.
20942. CalGal - 9/12/2001 10:17:19 PM
Irv, I can't believe you would leave because of the attacks. But if you just don't like the site then it's too bad; I'll miss you.
20943. sakonige - 9/12/2001 10:35:01 PM
ronski,
The people using this website are average Americans, like the ones who died in the terrorist attack, and most of them are shallow, coldblooded, worthless human beings when you get to know them.
20944. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 10:43:08 PM
Message # 20943 Kinda like you sak. The opinions you have expressed have been completely reprehensible.
20945. joezan - 9/12/2001 10:43:09 PM
My intern informed me today that yesterday at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, where she attends, many Arab students ran out onto the quad to dance and celebrate the bombings shortly after the news hit.
They were promptly beaten into bloody pulps by other students.
20946. judithathome - 9/12/2001 10:43:19 PM
And yet you keep coming here to interact with these worthless human beings...interesting.
20947. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:43:50 PM
Spoken like a bitter observer. Should anything terrible happen to you, maybe someone will have compassion rather than criticize you for being so shallow, coldblooded and worthless.
20948. sakonige - 9/12/2001 10:44:19 PM
What can I say? Imagine the WTC full of people like Ace, and concerned, and CalGal, and Jenerator. It would be kind of tragic, but not worth killing thousands more people who had nothing to do with it.
20949. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:45:48 PM
Sakonige,
Why do you want to be a victim? Why are you so insecure? It's as though any attention, even if it's negative, is what you seek. Truly sad.
20950. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 10:47:20 PM
Why are you even asking Jen? Who cares about her? Her posts are more disgusting than anything I've ever seen on here.
20951. mgleason - 9/12/2001 10:50:45 PM
Eh. You people have no appreciation for performance art.
20952. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:50:50 PM
Morbid curiosity I suppose. But you're right, why bother. Afterall, Sakonige will no doubt see this as an attack on "her peoples" just like she sees everything else as.
Sakonige, if this terrorist attack is no big deal, you're a hypocrite of the highest order.
20953. CalGal - 9/12/2001 10:50:51 PM
I'm sure it's ignoble of me to want to send those Arabs home--I am assuming almost certainly they aren't citizens of this country (but they can stay if they are).
The terrorists had AOL accounts. They used our schools, our Internet, our infrastructure, our planes, our buildings.
20954. CalGal - 9/12/2001 10:52:33 PM
Last night, while Ace was saying inexcusably horrible things about Arabs and Irv, he also posted an undoubtedly accurate skit of Sako's schizoid drinking. It was very funny; I recommend it.
20955. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:52:35 PM
Joe,
Glad they were beaten to a pulp.
20956. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 10:53:06 PM
Where is it CalGal?
20957. CalGal - 9/12/2001 11:09:18 PM
It's got to be in this thread somewhere, because I just checked the Israel Palestine thread and can't find it.
20958. sakonige - 9/12/2001 11:12:30 PM
Message # 20946
You're not very observant.
I read this site because PE posts informative and entertaining commentary here occasionally, and it's a public place I can communicate with him without breaching the bounds of chastity. I also enjoy some of RustlerPike's frontline reports from Israel.
20959. judithathome - 9/12/2001 11:14:44 PM
I'm more observant than you appear to be...and don't worry your pretty little head about the bounds of chastity. I am certain they are very safe.
20960. Jenerator - 9/12/2001 11:18:51 PM
Chastity and PE. Both words coming from Sakonige and in the same sentence; a first.
20961. sakonige - 9/12/2001 11:53:26 PM
Modesty, chastity, a reverence for the sanctity of sexual relations. It's something North American Indios and Muslims have in common. You wouldn't understand.
20962. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 11:55:20 PM
And to be truthful I barely care.
20963. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 11:56:51 PM
Check that... don't care.
20964. iiibbb - 9/12/2001 11:57:57 PM
it is irrelevant to the thousands of deaths yesterday. Fuck your reverence for anything.
20965. ronski - 9/12/2001 11:59:11 PM
sakonige,
You have spoken.
You are a disgrace.
And probably not even remotely sane. Your ancestors no doubt weep for you.
20966. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 1:07:04 AM
Thomas L. Friedman, NYTimes...
I suddenly imagined a group of terrorists somewhere here in the Middle East, sipping coffee, also watching CNN and laughing hysterically: "Hey boss, did you hear that? We just blew up Wall Street and the Pentagon and their response is no more curbside check-in?"
20967. ronski - 9/13/2001 1:11:22 AM
If a pussy like Friedman writes that, we may be headed towards Armageddon.
20968. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 1:17:52 AM
Safire Sucks Up---Big Time...
...Karl Rove, the president's senior adviser, tells me: "When the president said 'I don't want some tinhorn terrorists keeping me out of Washington,' the Secret Service informed him that the threat contained language that was evidence that the terrorists had knowledge of his procedures and whereabouts. In light of the specific and credible threat, it was decided to get airborne with a fighter escort.")
20969. sakonige - 9/13/2001 2:01:52 AM
Message # 20965 My native ancestors understood that if we kill some of them, they have a right to kill some of us, since they are humans, too. That went a long way toward keeping people from killing very many eachother for a long time. It also makes my ancestors better than yours.
20970. sakonige - 9/13/2001 2:03:03 AM
Fuck you and your supremacist vengence. You're not that special.
20971. mgleason - 9/13/2001 2:06:32 AM
As Homer wrote, 'It's a wise child who knows his own father.'
20972. ronski - 9/13/2001 2:09:59 AM
sakonige,
You are a sick person. And thoroughly incoherent.
The last thing I am is a supremacist. I am a pacifist, and always have been. I was a conscientious objector in the war. I have been a defender of the right of self-defense, and nothing more.
You are truly in need of help.
20973. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 2:11:10 AM
As Ace of Spades wrote, "Drunken semi-Indians shouldn't spend all of their welfare checks/casino payoff money on internet service."
20974. ronski - 9/13/2001 2:11:53 AM
Ace is right on this one.
20975. sakonige - 9/13/2001 3:59:01 AM
Brits always get my jokes. Dumbshit Americans almost never do.
20976. LimeGirl - 9/13/2001 4:36:16 AM
I don't see anything wrong with wanting to send foreign students who celebrate the distasters that happened home. Celebrating American deaths is the first step towards causing American deaths. Why should we spend our money to educate them so that they can learn how to best do that?
It's absolutely disgusting to be glad that people died because you don't think they're your kind of people. There were all kinds of people in those buildings, from cleaning people who probably didn't speak much English, to CEOs.
20977. iiibbb - 9/13/2001 8:14:42 AM
Message # 20969
maybe your ansestors were better than mine... but you are a lump of shit.
20978. iiibbb - 9/13/2001 8:21:15 AM
Even great men have to pull their pants down and take a crap sometimes... Sak is perhaps evidence enough.
Sak of shit.
20979. Wombat - 9/13/2001 8:52:27 AM
So, when is President* Bush going to deign to drop in on New York?
20980. Francis Urquhart - 9/13/2001 9:15:17 AM
Hopefully, at a time when his presence won't further tie up traffic, communications systems, and the like.
Ah, what the hell. If it makes you "feel" better, let's just send him in to press the flesh.
20981. Wombat - 9/13/2001 9:21:30 AM
I am sure that the city would welcome a gesture.
20982. Rama - 9/13/2001 10:28:23 AM
So, when is President* Bush going to deign to drop in on New York?
I think just about everybody recognizes that the pseudo-Indian is nuts. I'm not sure that people who fixate on every action of the President after an event like this are aware how irrational that is.
20983. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 10:50:49 AM
We're hanging two flags on our property today. The neighborhood we live in is covered in them. Even some of the Hispanic neighborhoods across town are displaying nothing but American flags.
20984. pseudoerasmus - 9/13/2001 10:55:33 AM
Why you hadn't accepted them as Americans before?
20985. mgleason - 9/13/2001 11:10:24 AM
Some of those 'Hispanics' may be 'Americans' of an older vintage than you imagine.
20986. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 11:35:38 AM
Cleared for takeoff---maybe...
WASHINGTON---The United States said on Thursday it had ordered U.S. national airspace reopened to commercial and private aviation effective at 11 a.m. EDT.
U.S. Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said U.S. airports will be reopened and flights resumed on a case-by-case basis, only after they implement more stringent levels of security imposed following Tuesday's hijack attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
20987. judithathome - 9/13/2001 12:29:02 PM
They have just arrested 2 men at the Amtrak station here who were on a flight to Newark which was rerouted to St.Louis on Tuesday; these two had knives and box cutters and were "Indian" (according to the reporter). They are being detained at the jail...what this means, I don't know but the FBI snagged them.
20988. Absensia - 9/13/2001 1:06:04 PM
I just posted this in American Tragedy
CNN reports 5 fire fighters were just now found..alive...in a SUV, in the rubble.
20989. MaxMacks - 9/13/2001 1:06:52 PM
the level of discussion here is sooooo
impressive !.
So Shrub has come out of the bunker
to take command ??
20990. sakonige - 9/13/2001 1:19:43 PM
I need to get some spare id's ready so I can really enjoy these messageboards when the retaliation starts to hit home.
20991. sakonige - 9/13/2001 1:25:29 PM
Good thing I never exposed my name, because I am surely going to dance on your loved ones graves when you start your public grieving.
20992. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:00:56 PM
Sakonige,
The WTC and Pentagon bombings weren't about you, psycho.
Thank God you didn't make it as a teacher, you fraud.
20993. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:02:30 PM
I can't begin to imagine how twisted your soul must be, Blue...
20994. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:05:02 PM
Sakonige, at your next pow-wow, you better thank the Big Spirit In The Sky that you don't live in N. Texas.
20995. Absensia - 9/13/2001 2:08:51 PM
I just received this email:
BREAKING NEWS from CNN.com
--American Express building in New York City being evacuated
over concerns it may collapse. Details soon.
20996. wabbit - 9/13/2001 2:12:02 PM
Sakonige,
Compassion for others is something you apparently don't understand. Your ID has been suspended for the next thirty days.
20997. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:13:36 PM
Thanks, wabbit.
20998. mgleason - 9/13/2001 2:18:14 PM
Ah, Wabbit, is this the latest recipient of the Rosetta Stoned Memorial Suspension for Excuciating Dullness and Predictability?
20999. christipeters - 9/13/2001 2:27:09 PM
1:13p (CDT) American Express Building in New York closed because of fears of collapse
21000. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:28:25 PM
Ha! MG, funny.
21001. glendajean - 9/13/2001 2:34:57 PM
Judith -- any more on the people arrested at the Amtrak station?
21002. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:37:06 PM
Fox says that the two Indians (one named Mohammed) had loads of cash on them in addition to the plane tickets.
Hmmmm.
21003. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 2:40:54 PM
Bucks for Bin...
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Germany's most flamboyant Internet multi-millionaire Kim Schmitz offered up to $10 million on Thursday for information leading to the arrest of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) in the wake of terror attacks against the United States.
Schmitz, the ex-hacker portrayed in the tabloid press with fast cars and scantily clad women, posted a ``Most Wanted'' bulletin on his personal Web site, www.kimble.org.
``Spread the word, stop terror,'' Schmitz wrote in an e-mail received by Reuters.
The message contained a link to his Web site, which offers up to $10 million for ``information leading directly to the apprehension or conviction'' of Saudi-born dissident bin Laden.
21004. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:46:22 PM
Maria, PE,
Mexico flags are flown exclusively in the Hispanic areas of town, until now.
21005. Seamus - 9/13/2001 2:48:17 PM
Thank you, wabbit, for raising the level of discussion via Message # 20996
21006. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:50:11 PM
I think they aren't connected at all...the local station has been strangely mute on it since the first big blast of info.
21007. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 2:51:52 PM
Meanwhile, in the Gulf of Mexico:
MIAMI -- (AP) -- Tropical Storm Gabrielle formed Thursday in the Gulf of Mexico from a rainy depression that was already spinning off bands of rain and soaking the Florida Peninsula.
The nearly stationary storm, with top winds of 45 mph, has been sitting off Florida's southern gulf coast but was expected to eventually begin moving northeast for a possible weekend or later landfall somewhere north of Tampa.
21008. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:53:23 PM
Jen, he had $4,000.00, not tons.
In Fort Worth, the "Mexican" part of town flies American flags...the only "Mexico" flags I see are at Mexican restaurants.
21009. judithathome - 9/13/2001 2:54:44 PM
Edit...not loads. (sorry, I said tons.)
21010. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:56:17 PM
Judith,
Here, there's a substantial population of Mexicans. The only place I see two, sometimes three flags flown (US, Mexico, Texas) are at the used car lots. Otherwise, the Hispanic business and neighborhoods all fly Mexico flags.
21011. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 2:58:36 PM
Yesterday, as I was driving past the Oasis Car Wash in Plano, I noticed on the sign a big mistake: "Prey For America".
I stopped in to notify the manager and he was very shocked that it was misspelled.
Thirty seconds later I saw "Pray for America".
21012. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 3:15:35 PM
A good deed, indeed.
21013. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 3:24:27 PM
Even the slightest bit of sympathy for dubya is hard for me to muster. But after watching a couple of TV clips this afternoon (one with him on the phone)and noting how woefully inarticulate he is, I wished for him a touch of fluency. Maybe he should have a couple of drinks.
21014. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 3:34:01 PM
I think he's doing a good job.
He's extremely more articulate than most of us would be as president.
21015. marjoribanks - 9/13/2001 3:41:47 PM
Hahahahaha.
21016. LimeGirl - 9/13/2001 3:42:30 PM
I don't think he's doing a bad job, and I am not one to cut him much slack.
I am getting really annoyed with all the talk about how he ran away and didn't go back to Washington right away. The president is supposed to get out of harm's way when there's any threat against him. He can be just as in-control of the situation from Air Force One as he can be from DC.
21017. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 3:46:40 PM
DeLay drops UN delay...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Republican House leader said on Thursday he will drop his opposition to a payment of U.S. back dues to the United Nations as President Bush seeks to rally international support after this week's terror attacks.
Republican Whip Tom DeLay, from Texas, told Reuters that he "is not going to be obstructionist to the president" in a time of crisis. He said he expects the dispute over a $582 million payment to be "taken care of next week" by the House of Representatives. The Senate has already approved the payment.
DeLay and other Republican leaders had made progress on the U.N. funding impasse even before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon but "the events of this week expedited things," his spokesman Jonathan Grella said.
21018. judithathome - 9/13/2001 3:51:18 PM
I don't fault him for going to Nebraska at all...as you say, he is supposed to do that and no need to senselessly expose himself to danger.
But I can fault the guy for being so hopelessly inarticulate as to tell the Mayor and Governor of New York the "America has a lot of anger and it is really real." That is not grownup speech nor is it educated speech. I know he is both...why doesn't he sound more like either?
21019. Jenerator - 9/13/2001 3:53:23 PM
MarjoriBanks,
Take a break from being so obnoxiously conceited and judgmental.
I know that you think that you epitomize high class (gee, your "caste" should be proof enough, right?) and you never pass up a chance to tell us all what it was like living with servants (until you could speak, right?) and no doubt you are the expert when it comes to knowing the difference between S. American mangoes and Indian mangoes, BUT, you do not represent all Americans, nor do you represent the Americans that can be objective enough in this time of tragedy to see that the President is doing a fine job.
Sure you think you know better, but thank God, you'll never be President. So get over yourself.
21020. Francis Urquhart - 9/13/2001 3:53:24 PM
Juditha doesn't want a doctor.
She just wants someone who plays one on TV.
21021. judithathome - 9/13/2001 3:55:19 PM
No, I'd settle for a president who sounds like one.
21022. glendajean - 9/13/2001 3:56:12 PM
The Times of London reported that they found the cockpit of one of the airplanes in NYC with a body of a hijacker in it. They also reported finding a stewardess bound by wire.
I am surprised that there are any items left in solid block form from that airplane.
21023. Property of Jesus - 9/13/2001 3:57:49 PM
What Judith should be concerned with is why her middle-aged son is dating a 21-year-old girl.
Just think of the bad habits the woman is teaching him.
21024. Absensia - 9/13/2001 3:58:10 PM
That is surprising.
I just got this notice:
WASHINGTON (CNN) --In an effort to assess the security of the
U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile and review anti-terrorism
efforts under way at U.S. nuclear power plants, a group of
congressional leaders will visit U.S. nuclear weapons
laboratories this weekend.
21025. marjoribanks - 9/13/2001 3:58:52 PM
You're always unintentionally hilarious Jenerator, and your last post is typical.
However, previously, I was laughing rather hard at the fact that you'd defend the inarticulate burblings of Dubya with a singularly inarticulate burbling of your own. You didn't get it (no surprise).
21026. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:00:04 PM
"That is surprising" was directed to what glendajean said, pleased be assured of that, and not the pussilanimous prattle that came immediately before my post.
21027. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 4:00:22 PM
DeLay drops UN delay...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Republican House leader said on Thursday he will drop his opposition to a payment of U.S. back dues to the United Nations as President Bush seeks to rally international support after this week's terror attacks.
Republican Whip Tom DeLay, from Texas, told Reuters that he "is not going to be obstructionist to the president" in a time of crisis. He said he expects the dispute over a $582 million payment to be "taken care of next week" by the House of Representatives. The Senate has already approved the payment.
DeLay and other Republican leaders had made progress on the U.N. funding impasse even before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon but "the events of this week expedited things," his spokesman Jonathan Grella said.
21028. judithathome - 9/13/2001 4:01:20 PM
Rosetta, your jealousy knows no bounds...you don't know even half the story or you'd be slitting your wrists in envy.
21029. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:03:31 PM
Marjoribanks, oh, your old trick of ridicule when when you have to valid response. And considering prior posts, I had expected better of you. However, your sly digs about Pakistan are too obvious. Anything that might hurt Pakistan would only help India. There goes your seemingly lack of bias.
21030. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 4:10:02 PM
Absensia gets style points for "pusillanimous (cq) prattle."
21031. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:12:47 PM
Oh, thank you, thank you!
21032. marjoribanks - 9/13/2001 4:13:01 PM
Absensia,
Actually, for your information, Pakistan (under the current leadership) will likely benefit from the events underway, especially if the US does decide to do something big in Afghanistan. I'm all for it, and all for a solid propping-up of the shaky current Pak leadership. I'm a Musharraf fan.
21033. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:15:10 PM
I don't know how that second "l" fell out. ;-)
21034. Absensia - 9/13/2001 4:19:48 PM
Majori,
I hope Pakistan will benefit. They didn't get much benefit the last time the US used their soil to send in the cruise missiles to Afghanistan. A fan of Musharrf? You think his actions of declaring himself everything but King have helped? There are many, many problems in Pakistan and I hope they can be solved although it won't be all at one. If I misread your regard and support for Pakistan, I apologize.
21035. judithathome - 9/13/2001 4:37:44 PM
Pinging sounds from the Pentagon plane are being heard...
A small plane flying above Bushs ranch in Crawford Texas was ordered to land by the military this morning.
21036. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 4:41:26 PM
FBI briefing on CNN. Now.
21037. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 4:53:09 PM
IMF, World Bank meetings iffy...
WASHINGTON -- The International Monetary Fund and the World Bank said Thursday that no final decision had been made on whether to cancel their annual meetings, but some officials indicated that the gatherings would at least be postponed.
Washington officials have urged the two 183-nation lending institutions to cancel the Sept. 29-30 meetings in light of the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
21038. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 5:07:53 PM
CBS says "black box" from Pennsylvania crash site has been located. They say it is the flight data recorder, not the cockpit voice recorder.
21039. Greystoke - 9/13/2001 5:10:31 PM
Jenerator
"I think he's doing a good job.
He's extremely more articulate than most of us would be as president."
What exactly has he done that leads you to believe he's doing a good job ? Making a speech and talking to reporters ? Wow!
Perhaps he is doing a good job behind the scenes. Or maybe he isn't. But, so far, I've seen nothing on which to draw a conclusion.
Frankly, I expected that some sort of military response would have been initiated by now. I don't think I'm alone in chafing at Bush's failure to act.
21040. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:15:52 PM
The story about the five firefighters rescued in th rubble covered SUV is false...it was five rescuers who had fallen into a hole and were pulled to safety. CNN
21041. Property of Jesus - 9/13/2001 5:23:27 PM
Of course, Judith, many middle-aged men would like to bed a woman half his age just to say: "Love is an exploding cigar we willingly smoke."
But you're his mother, and should be giving the lad constructivee counsel.
What do you say to the girl's mother about it?
21042. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:25:50 PM
Not that it is any of your business but the girls mother approves. You are too much...is this filling your little wet dreams now?
You need to worry more about some latent STD your son might have brought back from the Philippines.
21043. PelleNilsson - 9/13/2001 5:28:02 PM
How exceedingly unwitty. But that's a characteristic of this particular person isn't it? The Unwittiest Poster on the Mote. The competition is trailing far behind.
21044. Property of Jesus - 9/13/2001 5:28:49 PM
At least the girl and you can watch MTV together.
21045. Property of Jesus - 9/13/2001 5:29:02 PM
At least the girl and you can watch MTV together.
21046. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:39:54 PM
Well, Pelle, I hope you were referring to POJ and not to me but if you were talking about me, I begto differ. I was provoked.
21047. PelleNilsson - 9/13/2001 5:40:04 PM
Judith
I didn't mean you.
21048. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:41:24 PM
Thanks, Pelle...I was hoping you didn't. My post was rather tasteless, I'll admit.
21049. PelleNilsson - 9/13/2001 5:41:27 PM
And I'm a little bit disppointed that you even suspected that.
21050. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:42:13 PM
See above post.
21051. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 5:43:40 PM
Bill is walking around in NYC and being interviewed on CBS. I luv it.
When does dubya get there? He's gonna be pissed.
21052. judithathome - 9/13/2001 5:45:35 PM
Senate side of the Capitol is being evacuated....
21053. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:00:43 PM
Yes, the Capitol building is being evacuated and members of the House and Senate are strolling down the steps to gather in knots outside the building where a heat tab could kill them all.
Excuse me? Putting a bomb inside the building is more difficult and less effective than having car bombs outside the building and situated so that the blast comes from two directions killing all between. Then, for pure devilment, a third bomb to go off about 20 minutes after the initial melee to kill rescuers and wounded.
Christ! Why aren't these people thinking? Won't anyone take this situation in hand and discipline these jerks to evacuate to a safe position?
21054. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:10:49 PM
I find it amusing that ScottLoar, who previously (and currently) maintains that it is "impossible" for a sniper team to kill bin Laden, now advocates... sending in a sniper team to kill bin Laden as an alternative to carpet bombing.
This in practically the same breath as he "lampoons" me for suggesting that we should have assassinated bin Laden two years ago.
The Left. Ya gotta love The Logic.
21055. Cellar Door - 9/13/2001 6:13:43 PM
Why are youloitering around the hgouse, Ace? Go out and kill someone why don't you? NOW!
What's a matter? You some faggot pussy or something?
21056. concerned - 9/13/2001 6:16:05 PM
Re. 21039 -
Well, I'm chafing a bit, also, but since it sounds like NATO, as well as countries such as Russia and China are getting involved, at least more or less on the US's side, it seems to me that the situation must be getting even more tremendously complex wrt deciding on the best course, particularly on deciding whether a 'quick' beginning to a resolution is advisable.
21057. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:16:06 PM
When did I ever suggest we use a sniper to kill bin Laden? That is your fantasy. That you would equate my opposition to carpet bombing (Ace! Have you ever seen the effects of an "arc light"?) to support of a Natty Bumpo sniper is absurd. But absurdity is your stock-in-trade now.
I have patiently, repeatedly explained why a bombing of the civilian populace is not only ineffectual but counterproductive yet you remain stupid to my arguments.
I've voted Republican since the Carter-Reagan primaries.
21058. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:18:54 PM
AceOfSpades, I doubt less than a majority of persons reading your screed these last two days believe you've become seriously unhinged. No, that's not sarcasm but a statement of sad fact.
21059. pseudoerasmus - 9/13/2001 6:20:15 PM
Loar, you left-wing Marxist scum.
21060. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:20:38 PM
"Well, I'm chafing a bit, also, but since it sounds like NATO, as well as countries such as Russia and China are getting involved, at least more or less on the US's side,"
NATO is barely on our side. The Beligians refused to state that an "act of war" was committed; they would not sign the joint communique until it was changed to "act of barbarism."
It seems that the intentional destruction of half a city isn't clearly enough an "act of war" for the Belgians. Kick them out of NATO as soon as this is over, and end normal trade with them.
France, too, is ever-so-concerned that our response might be too "disproportionate." fuck them. Quite frankly, I'm ready to destroy half the goddamn world. Let them all burn; let them all die.
" it seems to me that the situation must be getting even more tremendously complex wrt deciding on the best course, particularly on deciding whether a 'quick' beginning to a resolution is advisable."
It seems to me the faggit Democrats won't agree that a Declaration of War is called for.
That said, I can wait for a response. I only care about the massiveness and viciousness of the response; I can wait, and speed is not a priority.
Indeed, a quick-fix feel-good hut bombing will quickly disappate the war-fever, as a milliong faggit liberals suddenly decide, "Well, Justice was done; now we can go back to coddling terrorists and hoping for hte best."
21061. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:21:40 PM
I do grant a sniper team could kill Osama bin Laden if he stands still for some while in an open area. He must do that, and the snipers must be there (wherever that may be - a tiny logistical and intelligence problem?), but these are little difficulties for Ace's fevered imaginings.
21062. Cellar Door - 9/13/2001 6:21:52 PM
Clearly brain lesions have begun to set in.
21063. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:23:25 PM
Leftist Marxist scum? Moi? And those who know and love me think me the very embodiment of Nathaniel Hale.
21064. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:25:20 PM
Loar,
I understand. It is wrong and stupid that I should suggest that covert sniper/special Ops troops should assassinate bin Laden two years ago; it is, however, brilliant that you should suggest the same sniper teams assassinate him *now*, when he knows we're coming.
Pretty much the only "new factor" here is that you need to recommend some level of action (i.e., a hit squad) in order to avoid supporting widespread, massive bombing.
Two years ago it was silly to send snipers against bin Laden; now that Loar quivers we might hurt "innocent civilians," suddenly it's pretty smart to do so now. (Although, of course, I'm still stupid for suggesting it two years ago; after all, I suggested we send in "Natty Bumpo" in to do the job.)
21065. concerned - 9/13/2001 6:26:51 PM
Re. 21060 -
I suspect you're right. But what would you expect from a bunch of Nazi collaborationist Frogs, Walloons and Flemballs?
21066. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:27:29 PM
(which, of course, I didn't. ScottIdiot further distorts by suggesting I send in one sniper, which of course I didn't; I suggested several teams of Rangers and Green Berets with apache helicopter support -- pretty much what ScottMoron thinks we should do now, in order to avoid hurting "innocent civilians").
21067. AceofSpades - 9/13/2001 6:30:06 PM
PS: "Surgical strikes," "restraint," and "bringing the actual perpetrators to justice" went down with Tower Number One.
Sure, I think we should make it a priority to "avoid civilian casualties." But I think we should make it priority #627, after "Looking sharp in your new black berets." In other words, if you THINK there might be a terrorist in Kabul, someplace, you bomb the whole city to the ground. It's just a matter of emphasis, really.
21068. robertjayb - 9/13/2001 6:34:44 PM
Sept. 13 The twin towers of the World Trade...
...Center loom in the distance through the cockpit window of a 767 flying south over the canyons of New York City. The picture isnt real, it appears on a popular flight simulator. The experience brings up a chilling question. How could a terrorist learn to fly a sophisticated jetliner? Theres one surprising answer: by purchasing a computer program for $34.95.
21069. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:34:56 PM
AceOfSpades, no, I've never, never, never equated the military force needed to effect my prescriptive policy against terrorism to anything from a few Natty Bumpo snipers to the teams of Rangers and Green Berets AceOfSpades would love to attend.
Between carpet bombing and Ace's Rangers lies my clear position: the force (no, that doesn't mean "teams" Ace - we're not talkin' football) that can effectively kill the state leadership and party apparatus. That force would be the full might of the US but applied - PLEASE LISTEN UP, ACE - specifically to the state leadership and party apparatus and not against the populace.
21070. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:36:57 PM
To the Wandering Bag Lady Posing as AceOfSpades -
seek professional help.
21071. ScottLoar - 9/13/2001 6:40:27 PM
Why not against the populace? Gee whiz, Ace, I've explained why again and again but you think such statements a testosterone test.
21072. pseudoerasmus - 9/13/2001 6:51:35 PM
There are also intimate links between Pakistan's intelligence services and the fundamentalist parties that the Pak government is supposedly trying to keep in check.
21073. pseudoerasmus - 9/13/2001 6:51:56 PM
wrong thread
21074. AceofSpades - 9/14/2001 11:30:19 AM
I find it amusing that shitheads like Wombat are suggesting that I be suspended for going "over the top" and suggesting, for example, that Pelle and his family should be the victims of a tragedy similar to the one that occurred in New York, and yet Cellar has told ME that I should die two or three dozen times (under far less emotional circumstances) and no one ONCE has uttered a peep.
Well, that's not true-- I complained once or twice. And I was told to fuck off; and that Cellar could say what he liked; and he really should mind himself, but honestly, words can't hurt you.
So, Cellar has told me to die two dozen times. Where was shitface Wombat, then?
And as for the Arab shit:
Fuck you. We are at war. Were I alive during WWII, I wouldn't be singing songs about the great engineering skills or cultural achievements of the poor, doomed Germans.
21075. AceofSpades - 9/14/2001 11:31:30 AM
wrong thread
21076. Stumbo - 9/14/2001 11:35:07 AM
How do people manage to post things to wrong threads, anyway? Multiple browser windows?
21077. judithathome - 9/14/2001 11:37:08 AM
Both threads start with the word New...
21078. robertjayb - 9/14/2001 11:37:28 AM
Together Again...
WASHINGTON (AP) Al Gore spent the night at former President Clinton's New York home and was traveling with his former boss to Washington, setting aside their political hard feelings to attend national prayer services.
The former vice president arrived in Buffalo, N.Y., from Europe on Thursday and called Clinton to discuss Tuesday's terrorist attacks. The president invited Gore to spend the night at his Chappaqua, N.Y., home.
Clinton also invited Gore to fly with him to Washington aboard an Air Force plane provided by the Bush administration to attend services in memory of victims of the terrorist attack.
21079. Stumbo - 9/14/2001 11:57:12 AM
Army intelligence... Massachusetts safety...
"Joseph Lawless, public safety director [of Massport, which operates Logan Airport], 1993-present. Former driver for Governor Weld and State Police trooper. Hired by Weld in 1993 to replace Carmen Tammaro, who was driver for former Massachusetts first lady Kitty Dukakis."
-- from a Boston Globe piece
21080. glendajean - 9/14/2001 11:57:50 AM
I hadn't heard that one, Robert.
Among other stories...
Is it true that a fireman on the 85th floor rode down the collapse of one of the buildings and survived?
The W. Post reported on a Brooklyn family concerned about their daughter who worked in a building next to the WTC. Their son, a military officer, called from the Pentagon to check and see if they had heard anything from her since the airplane attack. While the son and mom were on the phone, the plane hit the Pentagon. The phone went dead and it wasn't until several hours later that he was able to contact his parents. Meanwhile, his sister had missed her bus, and was late to work, thereby missing the explosion.
21081. iiibbb - 9/14/2001 12:47:45 PM
Airline employees intentionally breach security I'm sorry... we need to get our shit together.
And how inane is it the response of Luber? "We would ask that nobody intentionally try to break security," she said.
21082. rubberducky - 9/14/2001 4:27:49 PM
one more 'safeguard' that won't work...
Commercial airlines will no longer allow passengers holding e-tickets to receive a boarding pass by only showing photo identification. Passengers will have to present a printed receipt of their e-ticket purchase, according to representatives from online travel company Travelocity and Southwest Airlines.
...
Some airlines are allowing e-ticketed passengers to print out confirmations of their receipts to show as proof.
The changes in procedure are part of increased security efforts announced this week by the FAA in light of Tuesday's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. Curbside check-in of baggage has also been forbidden, and knives of any kind will not be allowed on planes. In addition, the department said, carry-on baggage will be subject to search.
i don't see how this will help anything
21083. iiibbb - 9/14/2001 5:25:54 PM
The newest album by the rap group The Coup has an.. unfortunately timed cover design.
(album review in Wired)
21084. Indiana Jones - 9/14/2001 5:28:27 PM
iiibbb: I read somewhere that they've already withdrawn that cover.
But that is the kind of thing I think Falwell--if he has to take potshots, rather than focus on the task at hand--ought to be shooting at.
21085. CalGal - 9/14/2001 5:36:01 PM
Ducky,
That's fucking stupid. It's a damn text file.
21086. Cellar Door - 9/14/2001 5:46:51 PM
KILL! KILL! KILL!
21087. robertjayb - 9/14/2001 9:38:22 PM
Japanese Firms Evacuate Pakistan, Mideast...
TOKYO (Reuters) - Major Japanese firms have begun evacuating their staff from countries neighboring Afghanistan, fearing U.S. military retaliation for this week's terror attacks on New York and Washington, Japanese media reported on Saturday.
21088. robertjayb - 9/14/2001 9:56:27 PM
Japanese Firms Evacuate Pakistan, Mideast...
TOKYO (Reuters) - Major Japanese firms have begun evacuating their staff from countries neighboring Afghanistan, fearing U.S. military retaliation for this week's terror attacks on New York and Washington, Japanese media reported on Saturday.
21089. joezan - 9/15/2001 1:02:49 AM
Message # 21078:
So... it took 9 years, but Clinton finally got Tipper to sleep over at his place!
21090. AceofSpades - 9/15/2001 1:05:05 AM
Says who it took 9 years?
When he sees chubby, he's relentless.
21091. Shannon - 9/15/2001 9:09:15 AM
In local news:
False rumors bombard restaurateure
21092. iiibbb - 9/15/2001 10:15:27 AM
I got a leter on a list-serv from a friend of mine stating how hopping mad he was about Falwell's statement. He wants us to write letters to editors etc.
I don't know whether to write my friend back. Falwell is an ass for sure, but why start paying any attention to him now if you didn't before. His statements may be insensitve, stupid, arrogant, and pious... but they are at such a subordinate scale to what happened on Tuesday it is virtually pointless to direct any attention to Falwell.
21093. judithathome - 9/15/2001 10:17:34 AM
Shannon:
That is a sad story...but I'm afriad we're going to be hearing a lot more like that. We have a great country but many in it are so quick to believe the worst and act on it. This mans livilihood could be taken away.
I've noticed a sort of trend in radio lately of DJs getting more and more radical about what goes out over the airways...like those two who said Britney Spears was dead and two local guys who attacked a local politician in a really vile way with unsubstantiated rumors about the guys private life. It's all in the name of free speech but they seem to think that means anything goes.
21094. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 10:59:25 AM
iiibbb,
What bothers me is that I've already heard Falwell echoed by a man(idiot)-in-the-street on the local news. My angry gut reaction is they agree with the terrorists. I don't know how ugly I will be to the first person who offers that idiocy irl. I hope it isn't a student. It will be a real challenge to my restraint.
From Shannon's article:
Unfortunately, many believe that if its written down, it must be true, he said.
You can't imagine how much I work on this in teaching, and even with colleagues, who think just because a friend or family member sent them something in e-mail, it's gospel.
You want to show your religious faith, you people? Use the brain God gave you!
21095. iiibbb - 9/15/2001 11:06:31 AM
No matter how stupid Falwell is, it will never justify what happened Tuesday...
...the religious right may be loop-nuts, but they aren't terrorists.
21096. judithathome - 9/15/2001 11:08:00 AM
Well, they aren't helping any by making statements like Falwell did.
21097. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 11:13:27 AM
My point is that the terrorists are fanatics who think our country is evil and deserves destruction. How is Falwell's message different? Nothing justifies what happened Tuesday. Sane people unblinded by fanaticism know that.
21098. iiibbb - 9/15/2001 11:15:40 AM
No matter how stupid Falwell is, it will never justify what happened Tuesday...
...the religious right may be loop-nuts, but they aren't terrorists.
21099. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 11:17:26 AM
You said that already. ;-)
21100. iiibbb - 9/15/2001 11:41:28 AM
refresh error... oops
21101. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 1:00:20 PM
...the religious right may be loop-nuts, but they aren't terrorists...
How about the clinic bombers and doctor shooters?
Don't they claim to be doing the Lord's work?
21102. Indiana Jones - 9/15/2001 2:53:28 PM
21103. CalGal - 9/15/2001 2:58:36 PM
Holy shit. I linked this article in the Attack thread, but maybe it's more relevant here.
Airlines, in Search of Relief, Warn of Bankruptcy
American Airlines, the world's largest carrier, said yesterday that it planned to return to only 80 percent of the schedule it flew before the attacks. Other airlines also questioned whether they would be able to match their previous schedules.
Security precautions adopted in the wake of this week's terrorist attacks will cut into the airlines' business, too. They are now barred from carrying mail and cargo in the bellies of their passenger planes; that alone will cost the industry billions of dollars, experts said.
"What we are seeing is a huge shift in the marketplace," Mr. Bethune said. He projected that Continental's sales would fall by half in the next 90 days.
Mr. Bethune is widely known for his outspokenness, but even some of the industry's staunchest critics are expressing concern.
"We do have a crisis here," said Kevin P. Mitchell, the chairman of the Business Travel Coalition, which lobbies on behalf of the airlines' largest corporate customers. "I might question the number, but I don't question the sense of urgency. I have been worried about this all week."
A shrinking airline industry spells trouble for many other businesses. Hotels and vacation spots will suffer. Airlines are also likely to put off deliveries of new planes from Boeing and Airbus, or even cancel orders.
Mr. Bethune said he talked yesterday with Jeffrey Immelt, the new chairman of General Electric, which has a large aviation-related business. "They have huge problems," he said. "We have 100 new airplanes financed by G.E. G.E. is also the exclusive supplier of our engines and does our maintenance."
21104. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 3:25:38 PM
I don't suppose this horror will serve to bring the airlines back under regulation? Nah...Privatization cures all. Amen. Thank you, Jesus.
How about Monday we switch most of the people and money being wasted on the futile and destructive war on some drugs to transportation security?
21105. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 4:09:34 PM
Union tells pilots to be agressive...
WASHINGTON (AP) -- With terrorists now using aircraft as weapons, a union representing commercial airline pilots is advising its members to act aggressively when confronted by hijackers.
Pilots have been taught in yearly training sessions to cooperate with hijackers. But that was before Tuesday's terrorist attacks.
``We've been guarding against the traditional hijacker who wanted the aircraft on the ground and his monetary or political demands met,'' said David Richards, a US Airways pilot from Charlotte, N.C. ``Never ever did we dream they would be using the aircraft as weapons.''
21106. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 4:33:44 PM
Hey, there's $40 Billion on the table---Gimme some!
NEW YORK (AP) -- Airlines imposed drastic cutbacks Saturday in an effort to avoid bankruptcy after last week's terrorist attacks, with three major carriers slicing schedules by 20 percent and Continental Airlines furloughing one-fifth of its work force.
The industry, already hurting because of the economic slowdown, is expected to lose billions of dollars before the end of the year. Analysts say that without a huge bailout from the federal government, even the largest carriers could go out of business.
21107. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 6:05:05 PM
SEP 15, 2001
Numbers Dead, Missing, Unaccounted
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
(Filed at 5:19 p.m. ET)
NEW YORK:
World Trade Center: 4,963 missing; 152 dead.
Includes those on hijacked planes:
American Flight 11: 92 killed.
United Flight 175: 65 killed.
WASHINGTON:
Pentagon: 125 unaccounted for
American Flight 77: 64 killed
PENNSYLVANIA:
United FLight 93: 45 killed.
21108. robertjayb - 9/15/2001 6:28:23 PM
A long Guardian takeout on U.S. Intelligence operations and terrorism...
...The lesson for the US: money can't buy safety from terrorism...
....How America's addiction to technology and big budgets failed to pick up the signs of an imminent catastrophe...
When security-cleared visitors were taken into
the national security agency in Fort Meade, Maryland, their hosts, it is reported, used to play them an audio tape of Osama bin Laden talking to his mother. His satellite phone call had been intercepted by the largest and most powerful spy agency on earth.
The smug message to outsiders was clear: if we can listen to America's most wanted man making small talk with his family then believe us, he can't use the bathroom without Washington knowing.
But the NSA has probably stopped showing off like that. For this story demonstrates the US problem; they and their western allies possess a unique array of surveillance technology which became ultimately pointless. And the west's great intelligence failure will outclass Pearl Harbour in the history books.
21109. CalGal - 9/15/2001 10:54:12 PM
Boy, I was just watching Fox and the anti-airline rhetoric is pretty huge. Mary Schiavo just doesn't like them at all.
21110. Shannon - 9/15/2001 10:57:26 PM
You want to show your religious faith, you people? Use the brain God gave you!
Works for me. But what do I know, being agnostic and all? My mom is constantly battling the "if it's written down, it must be true" thing as well.
There was a happier follow-up on our local TV news tonight. The story of the restaurant owner apparently appalled a lot of people, who showed up there today (many also sent flowers, letters, etc.) in such huge numbers that the parking lot overflowed and the guy said he was about to run out of food.
21111. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 11:03:45 PM
We had the opposite happen here. Our truckstop owner tried to price gouge gas and he was arrested, sued, and got very bad publicity, plus the network of truckdrivers can devastate a business. Bob went by there today, heading to his competition, and said his parking lot was almost empty. You certainly won't see our cars on it again.
21112. CalGal - 9/15/2001 11:07:36 PM
I posted this in the Attack thread but it probably would get lost, and I'm feeling a tad bummed about it.
I have some minor sad news: both my stepmother and little sister are having more problems than I anticipated. It's so odd; I didn't really connect anti-Arabic prejudice with
them. It didn't occur to me until the night before last that you know, there were some Arab Americans in my family. (I'm slow that way.)
Anyway, Safia had enough problems at work she was worried about losing her job; my dad had to call the boss up and blast him a few times. My stepmother hasn't had any issues at work, but the store she goes to weekly to pick up Arab foodstuffs is inundated by nasties who scream at the customers.
21113. arkymalarky - 9/15/2001 11:17:09 PM
Oh my. I'm glad your dad has been aggressive about it. I would think there could be legal action taken if she lost her job, couldn't there? I haven't heard of any incidents here. The universities have some Arab professors and exchange students. An imam, black, not Arab, participated in a multi-religion service in LR, I think on Friday.
21114. CalGal - 9/15/2001 11:28:16 PM
There would be if she lost her job because of discrimination, but what was happening is that her co-workers and, probably, customers were making shitty remarks and she finally blew up. The boss chewed her out and told her that if she couldn't control herself there was no place for her at his store. Jeers and good riddances that she thinks the boss couldn't help but hear. She went home in tears, dad called and the boss was a tad too dismissive. My dad had to go in and snarl about it in person and, when the boss figured it out (or pretended to) he had the grace to apologize and say he didn't know what was going on. Eh.
Dad wasn't too sympathetic with Saf, which I thought was a good idea--my sister is gorgeous and overly sensitive, some toughening will be good for her. He told her he'd consider disowning her if she quit; I told her to refrain from blowing up in front of customers and to come up with some properly casual insults to toss off in return.
21115. CalGal - 9/15/2001 11:35:43 PM
Lord knows I wasn't a Babs Olson fan, but PoJ's passive aggressive snipe about Spud had me curious. Here's what he said:
I am noting a certain strand of deep irony in Barbara Olson's death.
Her husband, Ted Olson, was the lawyer who devised the air-traffic controllers' strike of 1981 and advised President Reagan throughout it.
The aftermath of that strike --which was in fact principally over needed improvements in the air-traffic infrastructure, but which was sold to the public as being about pay raises -- is largely responsible for the current horrendous state of air travel, as nearly anyone in the air-traffic business can tell you. The system is in a constant state of near-failure because those improvements that were needed in 1981 still haven't taken place.
Likewise, the overstressed state of the current air-travel system has been blamed even before this tragedy for the increasingly lax state of security around air travel.
Not that Barbara Olson would have seen the causal connection.
Quite apart from being shitty, he's just fucking wrong about his "causal connection" having a damn thing to do with the attack.
Worse, that's one of the nicer comments on the thread. But at times like this, I sure don't miss him at all.
21116. arkymalarky - 9/16/2001 1:21:50 AM
I won't tell you the off-the-cuff, completely tasteless joke Bro made in an email, then. That's typical of him, though, and I did laugh, I'm ashamed to say. He's been very upset about all this, though.
WRT the job situation, Mose has had to learn to do some tongue-biting on her job, and I think it's been good for her. Under your sister's circumstances a few handy comebacks would be nice to have ready (though I know from experience it can be habit-forming ;-)), but her boss needs to be more vigilant if she's being harrassed by co-workers for her ethnicity.
21117. CalGal - 9/16/2001 1:25:59 AM
This is KC, after all; barring flat out attacks I doubt anything much will happen. But yes, I think the experience will be good for her--provided it doesn't get too severe. She's had a somewhat golden life--gorgeous, a tad spoiled, with all the assurance that comes from thinking that if she's polite enough and smiles nicely, everything will go her way.
This is not to say I approve of the anti-Arab prejudice, only that I don't think a mild experience of what the other half experiences will do her any harm. I know my dad will protect her, in the event that she needs it. I also think these are just kids being morons; from what my dad says nothing is going on at school.
21118. CalGal - 9/16/2001 1:26:34 AM
I doubt anything much will happen...in terms of her boss being more vigilant.
21119. arkymalarky - 9/16/2001 1:31:36 AM
If school is ok, that's good. Coworkers at any age can be a pain. That's why I stay away from mine.
Just kidding. I really like them, but then I don't have to work with them--just socialize a little bit between classes and in the lounge and only when I want to--and of course when one of them brings donuts.
21120. Absensia - 9/16/2001 1:35:06 AM
Cal,
Mary Schiavo gets around. She's on CNN now, discussing the "shoot or not to shoot" situation.
I'm very sorry to hear about your sister and stepmom. They don't deserve that kind of crap. If her boss allows her co-employees or even customers to do that to her, she can sue her boss bigtime, depending on how many emplolyees there are there, etc. That would probably only make things worse, but thought I'd tell you.
21121. OhioSTOPAS - 9/16/2001 9:31:11 AM
For what it's worth, I distrust Mary Schiavo and find her to be a self-promoter.
She pulled a stunt a few years ago, smuggling a suspicious package into the Columbus airport in order to demonstrate that procedures were lax. However, the package was discovered, shutting the airport down for hours.
21122. joezan - 9/16/2001 9:43:39 AM
If that were you or I, we'd be growing old in Leavenworth.
Of course, we're not members of the 4th Estate.
21123. judithathome - 9/16/2001 10:17:01 AM
Arky, was that THE truckstop?
Shannon, I'm so glad to hear things worked out for that guy; some good news following bad is a nice way to end the story.
21124. CalGal - 9/16/2001 10:23:38 AM
No, actually, she's not a member of the 4th estate. I forget her actual government job right now, but she was a self-promoting pain in the ass while doing her job, and then went off to become a lobbyist.
Ohio,
That was her. I've disliked her for a while now.
21125. arkymalarky - 9/16/2001 10:45:59 AM
Yep, Judith. No more western omelets for us.
21126. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 6:01:39 PM
Slate has this informative piece from an Oakland firefighter about FEMA's Urban Search and Rescue Teams.
One of the 28 teams stages out of our burg and as far as I know they've been camped out at the airport since Tuesday/Wednesday, waiting on a call.
21127. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 6:48:34 PM
The New York Times Magazine---After the Fall
21128. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 8:29:55 PM
Mayor on Grim Note As NY Struggles
Sunday, September 16, 2001 8:02 p.m. EDT
By HILLEL ITALIE Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - With hopes fading on Sunday that any more survivors would be found amid the dust, steam and gore that is now the World Trade Center, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani urged New Yorkers not to cower before terrorism.
``The life of the city goes on,'' said Giuliani. He said 180 people had been confirmed dead, 115 of whom had been identified. Eighteen city firefighters were among the confirmed dead, including two top officials. The total number of missing was raised by more than 100 on Sunday, to 5,097.
``The recovery effort continues and the hope is still there that we might be able to save some lives. But the reality is that in the last several days we haven't found anyone,'' Giuliani said.
21129. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 8:43:05 PM
Home-grown terror
MESA, Ariz. (AP) -- An Indian-immigrant gas station owner was shot to death and a Lebanese-American clerk was targeted, but not injured, by gunfire at another Mesa gas station, police said Sunday.
Shots were also fired at a home where a family of Afghani descent live.
Frank Roque, 42, was charged with attempted murder in two of the three attacks Saturday, and police were investigating the possibility that the crimes were linked to Tuesday's terror attacks in New York and Washington.
Around the country, several apparent backlash attacks and threats have been reported against people of Middle Eastern descent.
The East Valley Tribune reported that Roque shouted, ``I stand for America all the way,'' as he was handcuffed Saturday night.
21130. robertjayb - 9/16/2001 8:56:46 PM
An understandable mistake...
Reports have emerged that the detention of two Indian citizens at Singapore's Changi international airport may have stemmed from a misunderstanding. The pair were traveling to Hong Kong. One of them made a remark to another passenger as they stood on the tarmac, which the hearer may have misheard, interpreting the phrase "bass guitarist" as "Bosnian terrorist." (Agence France Press)
21131. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 2:46:18 PM
Ooops! Wrong again!
The CIA said that, contrary some lawmakers' assertions, there are no barriers to CIA recruitment of people, including those with unsavory reputations, who are needed to infiltrate terrorist groups. Spokesman Bill Harlow commented in response to repeated calls in recent days for an easing of perceived recruiting constraints so the CIA can collect information on those responsible for last week's terrorist hijackings and attacks. "The CIA has never turned down a field request to recruit an asset in a terrorist organization,'' Harlow said. "Furthermore, the CIA does not avoid contact with individuals, regardless of their past, who may have information about terrorist activities." (Washington Post)
21132. OhioSTOPAS - 9/17/2001 2:53:34 PM
robert - You must be mistaken. I heard Newt Gingrich say the opposite on TV this weekend.
And he's never wrong.
21133. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 3:40:23 PM
Heh-heh-heh. Isn't it good to see Newt back in action? As is said of Aggies, "Frequently in error, never in doubt."
21134. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 3:46:52 PM
Bejhat, the face of an Afghan woman...
Students and nurses formed the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan in 1977. Two years later, the Soviet Union invaded, forcing Afghans into a war of resistance. Life for women fell apart as they were battered by wave after wave of misogynistic violence. Male warriors in the country freely attacked girls and women: the Soviet invaders, the fundamentalist Afghan "freedom fighters," and, from the mid-1990s to the present, the Taliban. Yet women activists have not surrendered. "We will not give up on this situation," says Bejhat. "We struggle not only for our own rights, but for the rights of all women.
21135. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 5:26:04 PM
Coulda been worse...
The Dow tumbled 679 points, or 7.07 percent, to end at 8,920.70, according to the latest data, the lowest since December 1998. The previous largest point-loss was 617.78 points on April 14, 2000.
The Nasdaq composite index sank 116.09 points, or 6.85 percent, to 1,579.28, the lowest close since October 1998. The benchmark Standard & Poor's 500 index was rocked for a 53.81-point loss, or 4.9 percent, at 1,038.73, also the lowest since October 1998.
Amid record-breaking volume, airlines, hotels, and leisure-related stocks suffered the most intense selling, while the few winners included defense contractors like Raytheon and hand gun maker Sturm Ruger Co. as investors bet on U.S. retaliation and consumers becoming more security conscious.
I understand Ruger makes a real nice .45.
21136. CalGal - 9/17/2001 6:18:05 PM
US Air lays off 10,000.
21137. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 7:23:47 PM
I expect these notices will be coming out all week. The airlines have their lobbyists and PR people going flat out for a massive bailout gift ($5 Billion?) and who knows how much in loan guarantees.
These layoff announcements are the equivalent of kidnappers sending body parts along with the ransom note. Extortion is what it is. And dubya and the congress are going to go for it with some dems leading the way. Private profits and socialized losses. God bless free enterprise.
Some of these carriers were in deep do-do due to their own reckless management and bad decisions. Continental, for one, greatly overexpanded and was in trouble before 9/11/01.
But, but, but... Carriers will go bankrupt. The industry might go down. Alarmist bullshit. Are they going to destroy the aircraft and blowup the terminals?
Of course not. People want to fly. Many think they have to fly. All are willing to pay. So the aircraft will eventually be back in the air. Under wiser management, one hopes.
Any taxpayer aid ought to come with a plan for re-regulation and federal security. And no gifts. None.
I don't mind loan guarantees. The Chrysler deal worked out---after a fashion.
And where would we be without the Viper, the Prowler, and the PT Cruiser?
21138. CalGal - 9/17/2001 7:26:08 PM
All won't be willing to pay. Not if prices go up too much and stay there.
21139. robertjayb - 9/17/2001 9:10:20 PM
And another thing, get some regulation back in the system and get rid of a lot of the FedEx hub and spoke routing. Stop treating people as packages (for which the system is just swell) and take them where they want to go.
Security? Easy. Switch most of the people and money from the failed drug war into transportation security. Presto.
21140. CalGal - 9/17/2001 9:13:02 PM
I'll go along with the last. But hub and spoke routing was one of the major reasons flying became so affordable--at least, I think so. I should check, though.
21141. joezan - 9/17/2001 11:00:47 PM
I agree with rjb - call their bluff (the bailout they're asking for is $20B, btw).
What've we got - 40, 50,000 planned layoffs so far? Maybe double or triple that in a couple of weeks?
I see this as a major boon for the military. We'll be in recession, nobody'll be hiring. ...Except the armed forces. Here we'll have 100,000 skilled, bloodthirsty ex-flyboys and girls, looking to avenge the deaths of their colleagues.
Pilots, mechanics, air traffic controllers - coming out our ears...
...hmmmmnnn.
We might not even need the draft.
It's a win-win, if you ask me.
21142. arkymalarky - 9/17/2001 11:06:29 PM
A war and a bad economy! What a winning combination!
21143. bubbaette - 9/18/2001 9:01:13 AM
Yippee, bin laden's wrecked the economy -- maybe we can suspend minimum wage!!
There has been talk of closing National Airport in Arlington --thousands out of work, what a boon! Whole industries knocked to their knees --but the army can hire cheap (the young folk, anyhow -- you geezers are just SOL.) But that's war!
Air service is a huge part of our economy and, as I understand it, runs on a very thin margin. It's been shut down entirely for days and may resume on a reduced schedule -- all through no fault of the airline companies. But screw them and the part they play in the economy. Screw the thousands and thousands of the people who work in that industry who just lost their livlihood due to terrorist attacks. Serves em right, huh Joezan?
21144. ScottLoar - 9/18/2001 9:13:02 AM
Reading the posts of the last several days reveals the person behind each moniker and most of it is not too pretty, but most pathetic are the men who can't pull themselves together yet bully others.
21145. robertjayb - 9/18/2001 11:48:14 AM
Newspaper front pages from 9/11/01...
21146. robertjayb - 9/18/2001 11:57:11 AM
The Urban Search and Rescue team that has been camped here since the first of last week got underway for New York yesterday...they left out of Austin in a couple of C-141s. Sadly, it seems there will be no rescues...
21147. janjon - 9/18/2001 12:45:39 PM
I certainly concur with robertj's comments about subsidies for the bloated and mostly absurdly run airlines. Private profits and subsidized losses indeed.
loan guarantees at most. If it was good enough for Chrysler it ought to be good enough for USAir, etc.
21148. bubbaette - 9/18/2001 1:11:00 PM
Was Chrysler brought to bankruptcy because it was shut down by the government for reasons of national security in response to a national catastrophe?
21149. janjon - 9/18/2001 1:22:43 PM
not all, but certainly, some of the airlines were close to b-ruptcy's door before 9/11.
of course, the events of the last week have made a bad situation intolerable and, of course, appropriate governmental assistance is appropriate and desirable. Just not out and out grants.
21150. robertjayb - 9/18/2001 3:34:55 PM
Looks like the handwriting is on the flagpole WRT the airline giveaway:
Bush Administration Moves Ahead with Airline Bailout (Reuters)
21151. janjon - 9/18/2001 3:48:21 PM
Airlines were among the deepest and I mean deepest (both above and below the board) pockets for W's election campaign.
So it goes.
21152. robertjayb - 9/19/2001 6:03:14 PM
It is reliably reported that the annual NRA banquet here last night drew a record crowd.
21153. robertjayb - 9/22/2001 1:18:27 PM
Yates okay for trial...
HOUSTON -- A jury on Saturday found a Houston mother accused of drowning her five children competent to stand trial on capital murder charges.
The 11-woman, one-man jury deliberated for more than eight hours over two days before deciding Andrea Yates sufficiently understands the charges against her and has the ability to consult with her attorneys.
21154. judithathome - 9/22/2001 1:24:11 PM
Good.
21155. labwabbit - 9/22/2001 1:33:19 PM
When all is said and done, we will have all discovered that we were competent to stand trial.
...but most instead had chosen to sit it out.
21156. labwabbit - 9/22/2001 1:39:03 PM
signed,
Chairman of the Horde
21157. robertjayb - 9/24/2001 2:47:31 PM
Stick around, Fred, you'll be needed if we go nuclear...
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Republican Sen. Fred Thompson said Monday he had been leaning against running for a second full term next year until the terrorist attacks convinced him that ``now is clearly not the time to leave.''
``Seeing all that happen and all those people looking for ways to contribute when I had one right here before me in my lap, so to speak, it became obvious,'' he said in announcing that he will run again.
``This is probably not the best time in the world to say something political,'' he added, ``but I think it's time to go ahead and address it and get it behind us so that we can get on with our business.''
21158. glendajean - 9/24/2001 3:15:07 PM
According to the Washington Blade, President Bush has appointed an openly gay man as ambassador to Romania.
21159. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 12:54:24 AM
Toasted Teddy...
STAMFORD, Conn., (AP) - A city man has been charged with reckless burning after police say he set fire to a teddy bear he claims was "possessed."
Police said Lucson Aladin, 32, burned a teddy bear in his back yard Sunday as part of a voodoo ritual because he believed it was possessed and he was trying to rid it of evil spirits.
Aladin was charged with reckless burning.
21160. Absensia - 9/26/2001 12:57:14 AM
I wonder what the charge would have been if he'd been burning Barbie dolls? Everyone knows they are possessed.
21161. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 5:59:47 PM
All is lost...
General Motors will stop producing the Camaro.
The barbarians have won.
21162. glendajean - 9/26/2001 6:08:58 PM
and it's Pontiac version, the Firebird.
21163. ScottLoar - 9/26/2001 6:22:25 PM
Message # 21161: The loss to Latino culture will be greater.
21164. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 7:08:16 PM
Another horror...
LAKEVILLE, Mass. -- Every autumn, Doug Beaton and his workers wade into the cranberry bogs his family has farmed for five generations, raking in bright red, ripened berries at harvest time.
This year, something is different. The berries are white.
"It looks weird," laughs Beaton, overseeing workers heaping the floating berries onto a conveyor belt. "I'm a traditionalist, and I like the red stuff. But other people like this."
That's the hope for the grower-owned Ocean Spray cooperative, which is turning out a new line of white cranberry juice products it hopes will appeal to young families with a milder, less tart flavor.
21165. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 7:27:34 PM
SUV demand dooms Camaro, Firebird...(Detroit News)
21166. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 10:01:16 PM
Thursday September 27, 2001
(The Guardian)
The global economy stands on the brink of its first recession in almost 10 years... as the devastating impact of the attacks on New York and Washington on September 11 ripples out from the United States to the rest of the world, the International Monetary Fund warned last night.
In an unusually blunt and downbeat assessment of the prospects for the global economy, the IMF dealt a severe blow to concerted attempts by policymakers to restore confidence to markets left shattered by the deaths of more than 6,000 people and the widespread damage to the world's financial capital.
The IMF, which even before the events of two weeks ago had cut sharply its forecasts for growth in both developed and developing countries, said that the outcome would now be even worse.
"There is no doubt that the attack is having a negative effect on activity now in many regions of the globe, and that it has increased what were already significant risks to the short-term global outlook, including for emerging economies", said Kenneth Rogoff, the IMF chief economist.
21167. robertjayb - 9/26/2001 11:45:50 PM
Blonde ambition...
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (Reuters) -Brazilian (news - web sites) metalworker Andrea Eloisa da Silva is no ``dumb blonde.''
After listening to her boss repeatedly call her just that in front of colleagues, the 32-year-old Silva sued him and won $1,300 in moral damages plus recognition that she was unduly fired -- which paves the way for more compensation.
``It is an unprecedented decision on moral damages for blondes,'' Alexandre Santoro, a spokesman for the regional labor court that ruled in Silva's favor, said on Tuesday.
``The judge determined that the term 'dumb blonde' violated the dignity of the employee,'' he said.
21168. robertjayb - 9/28/2001 3:23:44 PM
Good taste, good fun, good grief?
McALLEN, Texas (AP) -Pinatas bearing the likeness of Osama bin Laden have caused a stir in this border town.
The owners of JJ's Party House received 10 papier-mache bin Ladens from a Mexican pinata maker Wednesday. Rene and Lala Karam said they had planned to donate profits to New York firefighters, but now they may not even put the pinatas out for sale.
"I've received at least 100 calls since yesterday," Rene Karam said. "People are saying, 'How can you be so greedy as to make money off a national tragedy?'"
The Karams have sold pinatas of notable and notorious figures including Monica Lewinsky and Saddam Hussein in the past. They say this is the first time such items drew anger.
Karam, who is of Lebanese descent, said that many callers Thursday complained he was reinforcing negative stereotypes of people from the Middle East.
21169. robertjayb - 9/28/2001 4:25:29 PM
Australian circles in on milk bottle record
SYDNEY, Sept 28 (AFP) -
Sri Lankan-born Suresh Joachim aims to set his 17th world record here this weekend by walking in circles in a downtown Sydney square for 133km (85 miles) balancing a full bottle of milk on his head.
Joachim has already registered 16 records into the Guinness Book of Records, including balancing on one foot for 76.5 hours, standing motionless for 21.5 hours and non-stop crawling for 56.62km.
The 32-year-old from Penrith, in Sydney's western suburbs, said Friday his latest trick was to raise money for the Universal Fund for Suffering Children (UFFORSC).
This is the sort of thing that comes from living upside down.
21170. janjon - 9/28/2001 5:01:15 PM
a full bottle, eh. he probably wants to sell the resulting cream to maximize his return from this venture.
32, eh. one finds that hard to believe.
21171. robertjayb - 9/28/2001 7:26:26 PM
Getting it up---way up!
LONDON (Reuters) - Viagra, the blockbuster anti-impotence drug, could help men scale ever greater heights.
Scientists at Hammersmith Hospital in London have shown that the drug that gives a lift to flagging sex lives can also help people breathe more easily at high altitudes and on mountaineering expeditions where oxygen levels are low.
When Professor Martin Wilkins and scientists at the National Center for Cardiology in Kyrgyzstan tested Viagra on people breathing low levels of oxygen, they found that the same enzyme that constricts blood flow to the penis and prevents erections also produced breathlessness at high altitudes by constricting arteries in the lungs.
Viagra blocks the action of this enzyme.
21172. robertjayb - 10/1/2001 2:03:22 PM
Pecker Check
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Indian men may soon be able to buy condoms tailor-made to give a perfect fit.
Stung by the high failure rate of condoms, India's Health Ministry has launched a project to study the size of male organs across the country and make condoms of different sizes instead of the single size presently available, the Indian Express newspaper reported on Saturday.
The project in seven centers around the country will use volunteers at hospitals and measure the length and width of their fully erect penises with a digital camera, the paper said.
21173. judithathome - 10/1/2001 2:11:20 PM
I'm guessing they will really have to like digital cameras for this to work...
21174. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 2:26:19 PM
The Japanese already have different sized condoms, I thought. I remember Dennis Miller doing a bit on it for the SNL Weekend Update.
"Yes, they come in three sizes now. Small, medium and Emperor. In fact, I'm wearing an Emperor right now."
whereupon he hiked his foot up onto the desk to display a condom fitted over the end of his cowboy boot.
21175. mgleason - 10/1/2001 2:32:32 PM
Someone once told me that he ordered custom condoms on a regular basis, but they were nothing to write home about, from what I understand. Heck, I'd have made sure they had all the bells and whistles.
21176. judithathome - 10/1/2001 2:33:50 PM
Anyone ever read Walk On The Wild Side?
21177. Absensia - 10/1/2001 2:39:00 PM
Bells and whistles could hurt.
21178. judithathome - 10/1/2001 2:39:01 PM
Because until I read that book, I'd never even thought about where condoms came from...the idea of a condom factory just boggled my mind.
21179. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 2:41:58 PM
condoms: a necessary evil.
21180. mgleason - 10/1/2001 2:43:21 PM
By Nelson Algren? Nope, but Lou Reed based his song on it, so I've heard the abridged version.
21181. Absensia - 10/1/2001 2:46:52 PM
India's serious about birth control, I see. A couple of weeks ago I read an article from the CNN site that said the Indian gov. was thinking of giving cheap t.v. sets to all, hoping they'd stay up late and watch t.v., instead of going to bed early to procreate.
21182. judithathome - 10/1/2001 2:55:42 PM
MG:
Yes, by Algren...try to read the book; it's much richer than the excellent song. :-)
21183. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 4:34:22 PM
I heard on the radio this morning that students in a Souther California high-school are presenting a case before the school board for better sex education.
It seems they are quite PO'd that their friends keep dropping out of highschool to have babies while the school continues to teach nothing but abstinence.
It's a sad day when children must fight against their parents to ensure that they receive vital education.
21184. labwabbit - 10/1/2001 5:14:18 PM
MsNo
Today I buried W-Dawg.
You were the only one who knew of him here.
He was a great healer...and will continue to be in my hearts. He was needed somewhere else to soothe the pain of others who needed it more I guess.
But God...it hurts.
Thought I would tell you.
21185. judithathome - 10/1/2001 5:16:37 PM
I may not have know of him but I'm terribly sorry for your loss, Lab...
21186. AuNaturel - 10/1/2001 5:18:32 PM
" read Walk On The Wild Side?"
No, but I like the song.
21187. judithathome - 10/1/2001 5:19:33 PM
The song was good but the book was a different bag of tricks.
21188. labwabbit - 10/1/2001 5:22:20 PM
Thanks Judith.
I'm crying like a fool...and I haven't cried since my baby brother was killed in 81. What a chasm that guy is leaving behind. His heart is incomparable, served unfailingly until we could say goodbye...and still he tried to do his job to calm us till his last breath.
Today I buried a dear, dear friend.
21189. AuNaturel - 10/1/2001 5:24:30 PM
"It's a sad day when children must fight against their parents to ensure that they receive vital education."
The school was in Orange County. Sex there is illegal unless you are married, heterosexual missionaries and don't enjoy it.
The kids were really pissed that abstinance was the only "sex (non)education" allowed by the board.
21190. AuNaturel - 10/1/2001 5:38:16 PM
Labwabbit:
I feel for you. We had to euthanize our dog of 14 years when she got terminal cancer. I held her as she slipped away from the injection. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do but I could not let her die alone and among uncaring strangers. That was 3 months ago and I still get dewey-eyed when I think about it and our 9 year old son stil misses her as well.
Even our other two dogs (6 years and 6 months) seemed stressed out for weeks afterwards. They'd lost their "mother" too.
Go here: Pet Poems and Stories for a real good cry.
21191. labwabbit - 10/1/2001 6:21:23 PM
AN
Thank you so very much. "Giving our hearts for a dog to tear..." that was always a question when I would think of when he would pass. But given completely I have...still no answer came close.
Now he has gone...and the answer is going to be forever beyond my ability to know it.
21192. robertjayb - 10/1/2001 7:26:13 PM
Sorry, labwabbit...
"If I have any beliefs about immortality,
it is that certain dogs I have known will go to heaven,
and very, very few persons."
by James Thurber
21193. Absensia - 10/1/2001 7:42:03 PM
Lab and UN,
It wasn't that long ago I held my dog, with her lap in my head while she slipped away. She was a close and caring friend for 13 years and I miss her so much and cried and cried, and some times still do, as one does when thinking of a much loved friend who has died.
I am very sorry for both of your losses.
21194. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 11:22:22 PM
Oh no.
I'm so sorry, Labwabbit. What a wonderful friend you've had to say goodbye to.
If you think it silly that you cry, it's even sillier that I am, but the older I get the more I believe that it's the silly and illogical things we do that make us truly human.
"I talk to him when I'm lonesome like,
and I'm sure he understands.
When he looks at me so attentively,
and gently licks my hands;
Then he rubs his nose on my tailored clothes,
but I never say naught thereat,
For the good Lord knows I can buy more clothes,
but never a friend like that!"
- W. Dayton Wedgefarth
A toast to faithful companions with cold noses!
21195. Ms. No - 10/1/2001 11:23:54 PM
AuN,
It's good to see you around! Once again I'm glad I no longer live in Orange County.
21196. arkymalarky - 10/1/2001 11:52:08 PM
I'm so sorry, Lab.
21197. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 12:36:49 PM
I thought I had seen...no, experienced the worst of mankind's hate and distrust. As a result I knew...I knew, that I would never allow myself to love any one thing ever again. I held to that promise, and became a hardened fortress against anything that could hurt my heart or spirit again. I responded to any hurt with anger and defiance...and with a passion that only years of anger and defiance could have created. I thought I could love...I thought I did love...but I came to know it was only to a certain point...and my family and those around me were consistantly locked out without conscious effort on my part. I learned how not to love. There was a point, and when I reached that point where the scars from old wounds would be exposed, the anger and defiance unerringly came to my rescue, I never believed that I could ever feel, or even wanted to know how, to give of my heart completely ...and even more unlikely...willingly.
But I came to know how love can win. I came to know how it can never lose. I came to know through the lessons of a wonderful gift, that special gift...that unlikely source that my defences never seen coming. The lessons of my dog.
21198. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 12:37:03 PM
Lessons that came through "that look in his ears" as my son coined. Lessons that came with the quiet strength he never once failed to communicate... clearly but ever so gently. The perfect mediator through the hardest and saddest, and in my case the angriest of times. He never failed to step forward to the task, and he never had more allegiance to any one else. That included anyone else within OR outside the family. Didn't matter. Where their was pain he was there...administered through a tail that nothing could stop...and nothing ever did...nor as I realize now- ever will. In our struggles of the heart...he won...unconditonally...accepting my surrender while basking in the warmth it gave all who knew me...and me.
So now I sit here typing what I, in a past time, would have considered goofy and silly. I now know how to love completely again and thus will always feel all other emotions more completely...except one. I owe this to a dog. A dog. My heart is completely asunder but stronger than ever...I have been made completely vunerable...am I am the luckiest man alive to feel so indebted for doing so. Thank you for a job well done boy. ..and thank you for making our family so happy and stronger.
Thank you Christin, robert, AuNaturel, arkus, and Absensia. Thank you for making me feel a little less lonely today.
21199. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 12:40:34 PM
I am so sorry Judith...thank you as well.
21200. ronski - 10/2/2001 12:46:48 PM
labwabbit,
Sorry to hear about your dog. I buried a 25-year-old cat last year, and a 20-year-old one this past summer. It's hard to say goodbye to our pets. They continue to tug at our heartstrings long after they're gone.
21201. Absensia - 10/2/2001 1:04:10 PM
Wabby,
Thank you for putting your heartfelt and beautiful thoughts here. It is not eary to bare one's soul but you have done so and with great love.
21202. judithathome - 10/2/2001 1:06:56 PM
Echo from me, Lab...
21203. robertjayb - 10/2/2001 1:56:48 PM
Bearly believable...
---Toddler Found Safe in Bear's Den After 3 Days--
TEHRAN (Reuters) - A mother bear appears to have cared for a missing 16-month-old Iranian toddler who was found safe and sound three days later in the animal's den, the Kayhan newspaper said Tuesday.
The child's parents, from a nomadic tribe in western Lorestan province, returned to their tent after working in the fields to find him missing, Kayhan said.
Three days later, a search party found the baby, who they said had probably been breast fed by a mother bear, in a den some six miles away from the nomadic settlement. A medical examination showed the baby was in good health, the daily said.
21204. Absensia - 10/2/2001 2:00:04 PM
Amazing, and I refuse to given into those cheap "bearing one's breast" kind of puns. (g)
21205. Ms. No - 10/2/2001 2:07:52 PM
Wow.
That's really cool.
21206. AuNaturel - 10/2/2001 2:51:37 PM
Dogs are espscially good at breaking into the fortress of the heart. Pets are our friends when the whole world hates us. They don't care if we are fat, ugly, impoverished and unpopular. All they care about is a little love and some food.
Our dog was named Amber. We got her from the pound before we even got married and she helped raise two children andout two other dogs. She had a dominant personality and kept the other canines twice her size in line. She was very crotchety and imperious at time with them. We called her Amber, Queen of the Universe and the chair that she prefered to lie in was her throne.
When our daughter (Rebecca) was barely a week old, we had placed her on a blanket in the middle of the living room floor surrounded by pillows. We went upstairs to fold laundry. Moments later Amber canme running upstairs barking and whining, then downstairs and then up again. We went down to see what was up and somehow our daughter had rolled out of her confinement (she was able to roll at 2 days old!) and kept on rolling until she had hit the bricking around the fireplace and had a bruise on her head.
Another time we had an guy who was a friend of the family (Randal) for for a babysitter. Everything was fine until we left, at which time Amber planted herself on the stairs between our friend and Rebecca's room and would not budge. Randal is six foot four and three hundred twenty pounds and thirty five pound Amber stood her ground against him, growling and snarling. It took him an hour to maneuver her into a room where he could shut her in and then have access to Rebecca.
21207. AuNaturel - 10/2/2001 2:52:27 PM
She was a good dog for the outdoors. We could let our kinds run free in any area she was in. She would find rattlesnakes around our vacation trailer in the mountains so I could remove them and when we went on hikes she would explore ahead, finding snakes before we would get to them.
One time we went camping at Sequioa Nat. Pk. She was extremely nervous, anxious and on edge. We just chalked it up to old age and being in a strange place. Too bad we didn't listen to her because that night a bear ripped the side window out of our van.
She was good with all kids but aggressive towards strange adults. I never had fear for my children's safety when she was around. As she got older she wasn't able to climb trees and boulders as before (We took her on our honeymoon and discovered her propensity for climbing anythingand everything!) and she started showing s grumpy demeanor when being put outside in cold weather. We still loverd her as the old lady of the house and bought her an insulated rain coat and a heated pad so she wouldn't be so unconfortable.
The end came when she started getting weak. We took her to the vet and discovered an inoperable tumor involving both her liver and bladder. Thankfully, it was largely a painless malignancy. We could not have dealt with her in pain. All we could do was keep her comfortable, feed her special food and love her as much as we could.
We took her one last time to our trailer, a place she loved well. You could see the quiet pleasure she got from being in her favorite place. She even found a rattlesnake to bark at.
21208. AuNaturel - 10/2/2001 2:52:41 PM
A week later she could no longer walk. She could barely even hold her head up. It was too painful for us to see her this way and we couldn't imagine she wanted to go on that way either, so we had her euthanized.
The entire family cried for weeks afterwards. She had been with us longer than we'd been married and our children had never known a day without her. My son asked why we had pets if it hurts so much when they died. All I could do was hold him until we both stopped crying and then I explained to him we keep them for all the happiness they bring us and we need them because they teach us how to love each other.
21209. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 3:39:07 PM
AuNaturel
My son asked why we had pets if it hurts so much when they died. All I could do was hold him until we both stopped crying and then I explained to him we keep them for all the happiness they bring us and we need them because they teach us how to love each other.
Bottom line...perfect. Amazing that so great an understanding can come from something that doesn't need words to teach.
21210. AuNaturel - 10/2/2001 3:46:37 PM
Does anyone remember the video of the boy who fell into the gorilla pen at the zoo? He was unconscience (broken skull) after falling into the pit around the enclosure. One of the females swooped down on him, picked him up and cradled him. She even carried him to the entrance the zoo personel would enter to maintain the enclsoure.
21211. labwabbit - 10/2/2001 3:54:18 PM
Ronski,
Oh ya...that'a long time...a lot of memories there.
Makes you wonder just what kind of person you would be if not for that presence. What is wondrous is that, even more so, after all that time, you are unable to imagine what it would have been like without them.
21212. thoughtful - 10/2/2001 5:09:48 PM
So sorry about your loss, labwabbit.
I remember reading an article where they did a test checking someone's blood pressure while doing a task and while their dog looked on vs. doing the same task while their spouse looked on....guess which one was higher!
21213. Ms. No - 10/2/2001 5:24:23 PM
Dogs and cats are used in all kinds of therapy and have had remarkable results in reaching those folks medicine and the rest of humankind just can't get through to.
My own dog is still too young and hyper to work as a therapy dog, but hopefully in a year we'll be able to volunteer at some of the local elderly hospices.
21214. Shannon - 10/3/2001 8:44:52 AM
10 Die in Bus Crash after Driver's Throat Slit
Someone emailed me a story from Newsday, which said 6 died. Sounds like the details are sketchy right now. Greyhound has halted all service for now.
21215. judithathome - 10/3/2001 9:48:44 AM
Drudge must have slept in this morning...he doesn't seem to have a word about it on his site.
21216. Adrianne - 10/3/2001 10:03:29 AM
Labwabbit
I'm sorry about your dog.
My Otis died in March, a week after the birth of my daughter Groucho. He was almost 13 years old, and the sweetest, fattest, smelliest, most protective and gentle big guy in the world. I'm heartbroken that Groucho won't know him - Fang! adored him, and he, her.
We're trying to get geared up for a puppy around Xmas time, but my heart just isn't in it. Not yet.
21217. labwabbit - 10/3/2001 2:41:14 PM
Thoughtful,
Well...you are. Thank You. I know I'm feeling more stressed now that he's gone if that means anything to the statistics.
Adrianne,
Thank you...and I about Otis as well dear lady.
I've owned many dogs. Mostly the working type. Hunting and farm chores. There were the special ones among those, and I was truly saddened by the loss of each and the special traits and habits that endeared them to me. However, this is the first time, I truly believe, that replacement is highly unlikely. This guy was most special amongst the special. He did things on a regular basis that continued to cause us to shake our head in utter amazement right up to the end. I can't begin to describe this animal. Anyone who met him and got to know him couldn't believe the things this guy knew and responded to. They constantly were testing his comprehension of words, and mannerisms, trying to trick him, not using tone or body language, and they always walked away in complete amazement. The many who come to know this guy over the years are near as broken up about this as we. He belonged to everyone, but to no ONE. You were a friend instantly, and only once in his life did he growl, (at the vet once for trying to do something without talking to him...heh). Never barked per se, a low-soft half-woof-half sigh once in awhile when somebody would walk by and not say something to him. And one really strange thing about him is that he had the same affect on EVERY other dog he ever met...even the meanest, or most undisciplined dogs would be calmed and befriended, and total mutual acceptance was almost instantly achieved...without fail...not once...anywhere. Stranger still was that many cats from all over the neighborhood would visit and stay with him in the yard. It boggles the mind. We would come home on many occasions and there would be cats, strays, sleeping next to him in his favorite place under a big pine tree. Not very often the same cat twice.
21218. labwabbit - 10/3/2001 2:41:24 PM
When I moved to Alaska, I drove across country because of him, instead of putting him in some cage in the dark on a plane etc, and the folks here thought that I was just one of those "dog people" because of my overt dedication to him....until they got to know him, as I brought him to the office very often with me. When I left for the office this morning, there were toys, flowers, and letters on his grave and I have no idea who left them...or when. I am still shaking my head.
But I prattle on...I apologize for the boorish as some may view.
But I, like yourself Adrianne, can not see a time where I may obtain another dog....just can't see ever reaching that point....yet.
21219. judithathome - 10/3/2001 2:54:23 PM
I know how you feel, Lab...Klaus is getting older and is slowing down a lot. I told Keoni there won't be another after he goes because it would be unfair to another dog. I just know none could measure up to Klaus.
21220. Absensia - 10/3/2001 3:05:19 PM
Lab,
You aren't prattling or boorish. Tell us more about your friend, please.
Judith and Lab,
I agree. I have not gotten a new puppy and can't. It would not be the same and my memories of Ms. Sophie are too strong.
21221. glendajean - 10/3/2001 3:07:52 PM
Lab -- so sorry about the loss of your dog.
They live such short lives. Much too short.
Thurber also once wrote that in language we ascribe all manner of negative behavior or values to dogs: it's a dog's life, dog-eat-dog, etc. But that they are truly noble in their love and devotion.
A toast to your departed friend.
21222. janjon - 10/3/2001 3:41:26 PM
One of the features at Pier 94, where until at least very recently, the families of WTC victims and displaced workers came to get death certificates, financial aid, counseling or other assistance was a group of "petting" dogs.
I understand this completely.
21223. robertjayb - 10/3/2001 4:15:05 PM
HIJACK>>>
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Indian airport authorities said Thursday they had reports that an Alliance Air aircraft had been hijacked on the way from Bombay to New Delhi.
``An Alliance plane from Bombay to New Delhi has been hijacked,'' Brijender Shekhar, an official at the Air Traffic Control at the Delhi airport, told Reuters.
Indian Airlines chairman Sunil Arora added:
``I have got a message that the last flight from Bombay, an Alliance Air flight, has indeed been hijacked. I am checking on these reports.''
CNN says the Boeing 737 has landed in New Delhi. No injuries reported.
21224. thoughtful - 10/3/2001 4:18:01 PM
labw, what a wonderful friend, and though sad, I know you are also thankful for having had the chance to have such a special creature in your life.
I don't know how or why but as much as we love all our pets are, there are always those who hold that special place in our hearts....I'm thinking of Tanya and of Thaddeus...dog and cat and each so wonderful in their own way. Then there was my dear cat Emily who was a natural empath. She would let us do the most horrible things to her without complaint...like when she had that absess on her face...because she knew we were helping her. And whenever we were sick she was always there for us, doing what she could to comfort. We got a new cat after several months after she died...not to replace her as no cat ever could, but because we need to have a pet to fill our home and our lives. We didn't expect to get another cat like her and we sure didn't...this one's a nut, has no sense of empathy, naturally distrusts everyone and is prone toward violence, but even at that he's wormed his way into our hearts. They all do.
21225. thoughtful - 10/3/2001 4:19:32 PM
One thing about pets....they all know when you wake up. I don't know how, but they do. My girlfriend used to say her dogs could hear her eyelids opening, but even if I just wake and don't move, somehow they know. Go figure.
21226. judithathome - 10/3/2001 7:13:52 PM
Evidently, that highjacking in India was a drill...not a real highjacking at all. However, whoever arranged to have it held is going to lose their job. The reports are saying it was extremely poor timing and passengers could've had heart attacks, given the climate of fear now.
21227. robertjayb - 10/4/2001 4:33:18 PM
An anthrax case in Florida...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - An isolated case of anthrax infection was confirmed on Thursday in a Florida hospital but there was no evidence of an assault, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said.
Appearing at the daily White House briefing, Thompson said the victim reported to a Florida hospital on Monday and was confirmed to have anthrax but Thompson said officials believed it was an isolated case.
``There is no evidence of terrorism,'' said Thompson, who also said the FBI and other agencies were investigating.
He said the 60-year-old British-born man from Lantana, Florida, could have picked up the infection from his clothes and was known to have drunk water from a creek recently.
21228. glendajean - 10/4/2001 4:39:42 PM
I don't know very much about Anthrax, but assumed that if anybody gets it is a big deal.
21229. ronski - 10/4/2001 4:51:16 PM
Anthrax is an disease of livestock and is occasionally picked up by humans in rural communities. If contracted by a means other than breathing it in, it tends not to be so deadly. The threat would come from an aerosolized form (the kind terrorists would try to create). The Aum cult in Japan released both anthrax and the much more deadly botulin toxin to absolutely no effect. They scored with seran, unfortunately, as we all know.
21230. robertjayb - 10/4/2001 4:51:45 PM
21231. labwabbit - 10/5/2001 2:49:16 PM
glendajean,
..much too short indeed. I honor your sympathy and have raised a cup as well.
thoughtful, (21224)
Of course you are correct...
Just stuck on the former more than the latter these days, but I'm certain a balnce will exentually be reached. Thanks for your kindness and understanding.
judith,
Get as many hugs and minutes of devotion as you can. It does produce a wonderful return in how we live.
janjon,
Do you find it strange that we can look to dogs instead of each other to provide such a mystical elixir of calm?
21232. labwabbit - 10/5/2001 2:59:44 PM
Oh...and Absensia...
You are a wonderful person. (I hope you are not upset that I let that information leak out) :->
21233. robertjayb - 10/5/2001 5:26:35 PM
R.I.P.
The guy with anthrax died this afternoon, says CNN.
21234. judithathome - 10/5/2001 5:29:58 PM
Bummer.
21235. robertjayb - 10/5/2001 5:41:27 PM
Cops use chopper to cop Krispy Kremes...
21236. wonkers2 - 10/5/2001 10:50:05 PM
Sounded like the guy may have got it from drinking out of a stream while hunting.
21237. robertjayb - 10/6/2001 9:12:03 PM
Make mine medium...
October 6, 2001, 3:34 PM EDT
MIAMI --(AP)-- About a dozen Burger King marketing-department workers burned their feet when they walked over white-hot coals at a meeting intended to promote bonding.
One woman was taken to a hospital emergency room, and Burger King brought in a doctor to treat others whose feet were blistered. Some workers used wheelchairs the next day when they went to the airport to leave for another company retreat.
More than 100 employees at the Ocean Reef Club in Key Largo participated Wednesday in the firewalking, a ritual with origins in religions of the Far East.
The Burger King workers had to sign a waiver acknowledging they might get hurt. The injured employees suffered first- and second-degree burns.
21238. robertjayb - 10/7/2001 11:20:32 PM
Yummy...Please pass the HDRs....
The food will come in the form of ``humanitarian daily rations,'' plastic pouches of food with added vitamins and minerals to invigorate refugees weakened by hunger and travel. The air drops will be focused on areas inside Afghanistan, not refugee camps in Pakistan and other bordering countries, Quigley said.
The food, wrapped so that one packet has enough for one person for one day, is rice-based and does not contain any animal products to avoid violating any religious or cultural practices, such as those of Muslims, who do not eat pork.
The yellow plastic packets have a picture of a smiling person eating from a pouch, a stencil of an American flag and the greeting in English, ``This food is a gift from the United States of America.'' The United States has a stockpile of about 2 million of the pouches, Quigley said.
The United States would try to prevent the Taliban from taking the food supplies, he said. The regime is sheltering bin Laden, the Saudi exile whose al-Qaida terror network is accused of carrying out the Sept. 11 attacks at the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon.
21239. joezan - 10/7/2001 11:55:47 PM
...The yellow plastic packets have a picture of a smiling person eating from a pouch...
...So they don't mistake them for packing material, I assume.
21240. robertjayb - 10/8/2001 4:40:41 AM
Another anthrax case?
BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) - Anthrax has been detected in a co-worker of a man who died after contracting a rare inhaled form of the disease and tests at the building where both worked have found evidence of the bacterium, authorities said.
A nasal swab from the man, whose name was not immediately made public, tested positive for the anthrax bacterium, Tim O'Conner, regional spokesman for the Florida Department of Health, said Monday.
It was not yet clear if anthrax had spread to his lungs or if he had a full-blown case of the disease. The man was in stable condition at an unidentified hospital, according to both the Florida and North Carolina health departments.
21241. judithathome - 10/8/2001 10:52:58 AM
This is scary...I wonder what the incubation time for anthrax is after the initial exposure?
21242. robertjayb - 10/8/2001 12:42:48 PM
Honk if you're horny...
BERLIN (Reuters) - The German city of Cologne has set up drive-in brothels in a bid to move the red light district away from near its landmark cathedral, authorities said.
The complex is located on the outskirts of the city and includes an ``approach zone'' where clients drive their cars past prostitutes to select them.
When they have made their choice, the prostitute is driven into one of the covered parking spaces adjoining a bedroom with a shower.
``The old red light district was more or less uncontrolled,'' a city spokesman said, adding that it had become a blight on the cathedral area with passers-by sometimes mistaken for prostitutes.
21243. judithathome - 10/8/2001 12:45:42 PM
They are taking a page from Hollands book...those drive up brothels are all the rage there.
21244. judithathome - 10/8/2001 2:09:43 PM
Okay, this is almost funny. Not really but all the people who have been working at or have visited the building of American Media, Inc. are having to be tested and treated with antibiotics for possible anthrax exposure. This building is where all the tabloid newspapers originate...the Sun, the Globe, the Enquirer.
The anthrax patient who died this weekend was employed there...
The reason I think it's almost funny is because these newspapers are so often filled with stories written to inflame or scare the public. Now theye've found anthrax in their building...you reap what you sow?
21245. robertjayb - 10/8/2001 4:27:10 PM
More about HDRs...
...The yellow plastic packets are about the size and weight of a hardcover book, and are designed to flutter to the ground rather than drop straight down to minimize the possibility that they could hit and injure someone. They have a picture of a person eating from a pouch, a stencil of an American flag, and this greeting in English: "This food is a gift from the United States of America, G. W. Bush, Prop."
21246. Indiana Jones - 10/9/2001 10:40:07 AM
The Supreme Court has refused Microsoft's appeal.
21247. theDiva - 10/9/2001 10:56:26 AM
well, inflaming and scaring is one thing, killing someone off is another.
21248. judithathome - 10/9/2001 11:21:06 AM
I agree, Diva, and I was being far too flippant about that story which seems to have developed into a very serious thing.
I'm now wondering if somehow a terrorist might have thought they could spread anthrax throughtout the country on the copies of those tabloids? Never mind that the actual papers are printed elsewhere; you just don't know what goes on in their minds...
21249. theDiva - 10/9/2001 11:25:06 AM
It occurred to me that the Sun was the target because the parent company name is American Media. Then I thought, nah, they can't be that stupid.
21250. judithathome - 10/9/2001 11:40:16 AM
Well, I think perhaps they can be but when you consider ALL the tabloids come from that same building, it could be they were pretty smart...those rags are everywhere, not like a local paper which only goes in the area.
21251. theDiva - 10/9/2001 11:41:41 AM
It's just scary.
21252. judithathome - 10/9/2001 11:48:19 AM
I'm wondering how scared ChristiP is right now...Orlando is very close to Boca Raton or at least it looks so on the map...
21253. theDiva - 10/9/2001 11:57:23 AM
It's at least a four hour drive. My former mother-in-law lives in Boca, and we'd made the drive from Disney to her place a few times when Gracie was a baby.
21254. judithathome - 10/9/2001 12:25:36 PM
Ha...maps can be deceiving, can't they?
21255. thoughtful - 10/9/2001 3:01:54 PM
ah...er...re the HDRs
a stencil of an American flag and the greeting in English, ``This food is a gift from the United States of America.''
...not only can't 70% of Afghans read, they certainly don't read English.
21256. Ms. No - 10/9/2001 5:57:27 PM
Juditha,
It depends on the manner of infection. Cutaneous Anthrax will cause a sore at the site of infection within 1 to 2 days. The symptoms from inhaled Antrax take about a week although I saw something earlier today that said it can be as long as 30 days for symptoms to manifest.
21257. judithathome - 10/9/2001 5:59:05 PM
as long as 30 days for symptoms to manifest
Good lord......
21258. cmboyce - 10/9/2001 11:49:41 PM
An unintended consequence might be an improvement in the collective American mind.
21259. cmboyce - 10/9/2001 11:51:12 PM
Good Lord! Sorry... that was in response to someone's idea about poisoned tabloids, qhite a ways back (unbeknownst to me at the time).
21260. cmboyce - 10/9/2001 11:53:49 PM
Juditha, today's NYT says 6-12 days; I think, then, that it may have been sent to that office (I'm guessing USMail) after 9/11, by a copycat sicko.
21261. robertjayb - 10/10/2001 4:02:10 AM
Out of respect to Mr. Holder, we're dumping him on the porch...
SPRINGFIELD, Mo. -- A man's corpse was left on his front porch after a funeral home wasn't paid for his cremation.
The man's girlfriend, Nancy King, says she returned to the home after picking up a gallon of milk Friday to find a white bag containing the body of 74-year-old Robert L. Holder, who had died the previous week.
She said Hathaway Peterman Funeral Home returned the body to the house she and Holder shared in the central Missouri town of Cross Timbers.
"I'm just devastated," King said Monday. "As soon as I pulled up to the house, I knew what they'd done. He was there, lying on my front porch. ... I could see his blue nightgown through the bag."
Funeral director Gary Peterman of Hathaway Peterman declined Monday to discuss King's allegation.
"I think out of respect to Mr. Holder, let's just let this issue drop," he said.
21262. Frankster - 10/10/2001 4:19:18 AM
Bobby,
( No more Border CD shopping for me this evening )
I'm still mired in this self-imposed "funk" over the tragic events of September 11th, so I'm still finding it difficult to get back to my old routines --including that of enjoying a good laugh on occasion without feeling some sort of guilt, but posts 21237 and 21261 really made me laugh out loud this morning. Post 21237 in particular. What were they thinking ? LOL!
...I should visit this thread more often.
Thanks :-)
21263. thoughtful - 10/10/2001 8:48:43 AM
Someone want to tell me about this anthrax thing....creating and spreading a lethal disease is not an act of terror...just a criminal act?
21264. judithathome - 10/10/2001 9:25:47 AM
Cross Timbers is a very small town...one stop sign, not even a light...about two towns over from where my parents were born...a small town, county seat...two stop lights!
21265. thoughtful - 10/10/2001 10:11:34 AM
...and one dead body on the porch. I've heard of people with tires and old bicycles and crates out front, but granddad on the front porch is a new twist...sort of a pere-skin rug, eh?
(Forgive me, I couldn't help it.)
21266. judithathome - 10/10/2001 10:14:11 AM
:-)
21267. judithathome - 10/10/2001 1:07:14 PM
This might be the best thing to come from the anthrax scare....
People Afraid to Read Tabloids
21268. don s. - 10/10/2001 1:32:31 PM
An unintended consequence might be an improvement in the collective American mind. ...
"People are afraid to pick up [the titles]," said a top industry executive who had been in touch with American Media CEO David Pecker today. ...
Given the types who read these rags, the terrorists might be doing us a favor. Is there any way to infect drudgereport.com?
On the other hand, I occasionally pick up the Weekly World News. The most recent issue I purchased featured a cover story about Hillary Clinton's illicit romantic rendezvous with a space alien on the observation deck of the Empire State Building, replete with a photo of the alien wrapping his foot-long tongue around the senator's neck.
Huhuh huh huhuh huhuh huhuh "pecker" huh huhuh huhuuh
21269. Jenerator - 10/10/2001 2:16:26 PM
I love the Weekly World News. I check on all of the Biblical prophecies printed.
Also, I read the Enquirer for the fashion photos and tips. Where else do you think I get my chicness from?
21270. Absensia - 10/10/2001 2:18:10 PM
Sooooo, that's where you get your sense of style. Ah, hah!
21271. Jenerator - 10/10/2001 2:20:49 PM
Well, I get my *evening* style from there. Right now I'm into L'il Kim.
21272. Absensia - 10/10/2001 2:26:44 PM
Well, I always knew you cheated. My sense of style is *natural*.
21273. robertjayb - 10/10/2001 5:07:21 PM
CNN says a Delta 757 enroute from Atlanta to LA has been diverted to Shreveport with an F-16 escort after a disturbance on board.
21274. janjon - 10/10/2001 5:09:40 PM
Ending up in Shreveport when you were planning on LA is a real bummer.
21275. janjon - 10/10/2001 5:10:24 PM
And, this kind of stuff is going to do wonders, just wonders, in terms of getting people up and flying again.
21276. robertjayb - 10/10/2001 7:54:11 PM
Whew! It's sure hot in here...
CHICAGO, Oct 10 (Reuters) -Three Saudi men removed from a United Airlines (NYSE:UAL - news) flight after they mistakenly tried to open an exit window to get air circulating during the boarding process were only confused passengers, the FBI said on Wednesday.
``They didn't understand English, didn't read English. They were trying to get some air circulating in the airplane,'' FBI spokeswoman Virginia Wright said of Tuesday night's incident.
The three were questioned by the FBI and police and later released, she said.
Two brothers were escorting their ill father to St. Louis for a liver transplant and had just boarded United Flight 729, a Boeing 727, at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport when one of the brothers attempted to open an exit window over a wing.
21277. robertjayb - 10/10/2001 8:56:20 PM
Now where is that damn dog?
MERCED, Calif. Police responded to a call to find a 200-pound cold-blooded killer hiding at the scene a Burmese python who'd eaten the man's other pet, a 30-pound pit bull.
Jerry Brown summoned authorities Friday after coming home from work, originally fearing someone had broken into his home and stolen his beloved pets.
"He said he'd looked all over the area and couldn't find them," said Sgt. Norm Andraddi of the Merced Police Department.
When two officers arrived on the scene, they searched around the home and found the 18-foot snake curled up underneath Brown's house.
They quickly noticed it had a large bulge in its midsection.
-------------
Personally, though I'm very much a dog person, the idea of a snake eating pit bulls doesn't bother me all that much.
21278. theDiva - 10/11/2001 8:39:20 AM
now that is funny as hell.
21279. thoughtful - 10/11/2001 9:41:41 AM
#21277 sounds an awful lot like a "Far Side" cartoon.
21280. PelleNilsson - 10/11/2001 12:48:32 PM
A news itm almost lost in the Afghanistan avalanche:
The Russian submarine Kursk has been brought to the surface and towed to port. Not all of it though - the bow section was sawed off before the lift.
21281. arkymalarky - 10/11/2001 6:00:59 PM
It is like a Far Side cartoon I really like, showing the inside of a pet shop with a big glass aquarium that has a huge hole broken in it, a python on the floor with a very large bulge, and a parrot in a cage saying "Hello....Help! Get it off of me!" over and over.
21282. arkymalarky - 10/11/2001 6:02:24 PM
They were just showing news items on CNN that have been lost in the US media in the 9/11 attacks and aftermath.
21283. robertjayb - 10/11/2001 8:03:08 PM
May the Force Be with You...
LONDON (Reuters) -Thousands of Britons devoted to the ''Star Wars'' films have claimed the fictional faith Jedi as their religion and forced it onto the next national census, newspapers reported on Thursday.
An e-mail campaign convinced more than 10,000 fans of the enduring science-fiction films to list Jedi --known by the mantra ``May the Force be with you'' -- as their religion on Britain's 2001 census, the Daily Express reported.
It was enough for the Office for National Statistics (ONS) to give Jedi its own code, meaning it will appear in the 2002 census.
21284. robertjayb - 10/11/2001 8:06:41 PM
'Wonderbum' Technology for a More Pert Bottom...
LONDON (Reuters) - First came the Wonderbra. Now comes the Wonderbum -- a new product that ``lifts, separates and shapes'' the parts other tights don't reach.
The product promises ``a perfectly peachy, pert bottom,'' according to makers DuPont Lycra, which unveiled the uplifting new ``technology'' at a hosiery show Wednesday.
``Let's face it, this is what women everywhere want,'' said a company spokeswoman. ``Women would no longer need to turn to the surgeon's knife to achieve that pert look.''
The only snag?
There are currently only two pairs in existence -- DuPont says the wobbly majority must wait until the end of 2002 before Wonderbum hits the stores.
21285. robertjayb - 10/12/2001 2:33:16 PM
Gun foe shot to death...
SEATTLE (AP) - A federal prosecutor who headed a prominent gun control group in his spare time was shot in his home and died early Friday.
Thomas C. Wales, 49, died about 1:15 a.m. Friday at Harborview Medical Center. He had been shot in the neck and the side late Thursday, a hospital spokeswoman said.
Details about the shooting were sketchy. No arrests had been made, police spokesman Mark Jamieson said.
Wales was a member of the fraud unit in the U.S. attorney's office here, specializing in prosecution of banking and business crime, spokesman Lawrence Lincoln said.
He also was board president of Seattle-based Washington Ceasefire, a gun-control group.
21286. robertjayb - 10/12/2001 6:57:04 PM
Anthrax Bemoans 'Not So Cool' Name
MIAMI (Reuters) -Thrash metal rock band Anthrax admit their name is ``not so cool'' in light of the outbreak of the disease in Florida but said they do not want to change it.
The band, whose multi-selling albums include ``Spreading the Disease'' and ``The Threat is Real,'' said that when they chose the name 20 year ago it sounded ``cool, aggressive and nobody knew what it was.''
21287. judithathome - 10/12/2001 6:58:33 PM
nobody knew what it was.''
At least, this was true of the people who make up the band...
21288. amax - 10/12/2001 7:01:18 PM
Pic of the 'wonderbum':
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/011010/80/c8iff.html
21289. amax - 10/12/2001 7:05:08 PM
Mmmm. I predict they will be in much demand amongst the fetish set.
21290. robertjayb - 10/16/2001 1:54:48 PM
Bad to the last drop---Man Murders Wife Over 'Disgusting Coffee'
ROME (Reuters) - An Italian man said Monday he had killed his 72-year-old wife after she made him a bad cup of coffee, Italian news agency ANSA reported.
``The coffee was disgusting. I drank a little then I picked up the cup and smashed it on the floor,'' the 84-year-old told prosecutors in Bari, on Italy's southern heel, the agency said.
A neighbor discovered the wife's body Sunday afternoon and alerted the police. The man was arrested on suspicion of murder.
The man later confessed he had hidden the murder weapon -- a hammer -- and blood-sodden clothes he had worn when he killed her, ANSA said.
21291. PsychProf - 10/16/2001 1:59:23 PM
Robert...did you get my e-mail?
21292. robertjayb - 10/16/2001 7:10:46 PM
PsychProf,
I have now and I'll respond later. Thanks.
21293. Jenerator - 10/16/2001 7:33:08 PM
He killed her with a hammer. Disgusting.
21294. robertjayb - 10/16/2001 10:38:27 PM
In Britain the power business is going to ....
LONDON --Britain's first dung-fired power station is set to begin operation by early next year, producing not only electricity but also hot water and liquid manure.
The plant is part of a renewable energy project in Devon County, southwest England. It will generate up to 2 megawatts of electricity from gas given off by liquid waste collected from area farms, plant director Charles Clarke said Tuesday.
The plant can handle up to 450 tons of slurry a day, reducing the problem of storage, said Clarke, a director of operating company Holsworthy Biogas.
The complex, expected to be in operation by January, which will also handle some food waste.
21295. aunaturel - 10/17/2001 6:37:54 PM
"He killed her with a hammer. Disgusting"
Reminds me of what happened to that math prof. I think it was at UC Berkely.
21296. robertjayb - 10/17/2001 8:52:09 PM
Fat Fowl Fleet Fliers...
(AP)---As skies fill with millions of migrating birds, European scientists say the seasonal miracle appears to hinge on a seeming contradiction: The fatter the bird, the more efficiently it flies.
The results of their study -- involving four birds that were captured as adults and trained to fly in a wind tunnel -- contradict a central theory of aerodynamics, which predicts that the power needed to fly increases sharply with load.
For birds, apparently, the cost of flying with heavy fuel loads is considerably smaller than previously thought.
"We have measured, for the first time, how flight power changes with body mass in a bird and the results were very surprising," said Anders Kvist of Sweden's Lund University, the lead author of the study in the latest issue of the journal Nature.
21297. robertjayb - 10/17/2001 11:26:22 PM
Okay, but first do the shirts...
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A leading bioterror expert said on Tuesday people who feel panicky about opening their mail amid the anthrax scare can use a hot steam iron and a moist layer of fabric to kill germs.
Ken Alibek, a top former Soviet germ warfare scientist who is now a U.S.-based author and researcher trying to develop defenses against bioterror, told a surprised congressional briefing on nonproliferation that a hot, moist steam iron and moist fabric could kill anthrax spores.
Pressed by surprised lawmakers who were not sure if they had heard him right, he repeated that several times.
``Iron your letters,'' he said, adding that a microwave oven was not as good as an iron and that including moisture was essential because spores could survive dry heat.
21298. robertjayb - 10/18/2001 3:44:35 AM
Grayhound Grab Foiled...
SALT LAKE CITY -- A man tried to overpower a Greyhound bus driver in Utah late Wednesday, but gave up the supposed hijacking attempt and fled in a different vehicle, the state Highway Patrol said.
The man apparently tried to overtake the driver after ranting about hijackings, said Doug McCleve, patrol spokesman. Bus driver Gene Savage told KUTV television that the man grabbed the steering wheel and said he was going to flip the bus.
The driver said he kicked the man away and was able to stop the bus. The estimated 40 passengers got out unharmed, McCleve said.
21299. robertjayb - 10/18/2001 4:56:00 PM
Brit survives anthrax in 1981...(Guardian)
...I awoke feeling as though I had a bad dose of 'flu, and with my arm swollen to twice its normal size. There was also what seemed to be a bottomless hole in my wrist where the bite had been. The odd thing was that the hole, although about two or three centimetres across, with raw edges and a black, necrotic base, was completely painless. The medic was more impressed this time and although he had never seen a case of cutaneous anthrax before, was swift with the diagnosis.
21300. glendajean - 10/18/2001 5:49:24 PM
According to the Washington Post site, the Today Show's Katie Couric's sister died today. She was co-chair of the Virginia Democratic Party and a State Senator.
She had cancer.
21301. janjon - 10/19/2001 4:32:57 PM
in honor of robtj, who somehow missed this little gem:
Moral of the Story, I Guess, is Don't Name Your Spouse As Your Executor
briefly, this is the tale involving a man who was convicted of bludgeoning his wife to death but who nevertheless had been appointed executor of her will several weeks before being indicted. So, even though under Mass. law he was disinherited (he'd been named to get it all), he nevertheless has control over the deceased wife's assets AND will be entitled to an Executor's fee.
Odd little loophole in that law.
Even more odd is the fact that he just sold his wife's house to the BOYFRIEND of one of his daughters for $1, and in a context in which the boyfriend and daughter aren't getting along.
All three kids support their dad, incidentally.
Oh well, I always did think that Massachusetts drivers are the world's worst......
21302. robertjayb - 10/21/2001 8:06:29 PM
I'll get you for this, Chinee boy.
21303. rubberducky - 10/22/2001 11:30:04 AM
from the unmitigated stupidity file:
The small home where Elian Gonzalez lived while at the center of an international custody battle opened Sunday as a shrine to honor him.it's that last paragraph that is the coup de grâce for me
Elian's wooden swing set and a picture of his mother, Elisabeth Brotons, who died while trying to bring him to the United States, greeted nearly 500 people who passed through the front door of Unidos en Casa Elian, or United in Elian House.
...
The home includes four bicycles and the red, yellow and purple pedal car Elian rode around the front yard. His black and blue inline roller-skates, a purple stuffed Barney the Dinosaur and red and yellow plastic trucks and planes lined shelves in the living room.
Providing a backdrop for the toys were hundreds of photos, some of the boy playing on his swing set, swimming in a wading pool and smiling from underneath a festive hat.
One poster bore photos of a contemplative Elian and called him "The Miracle Child." It read "A mischievous, charming soul that will never be just like any other boy."
...
In Elian's bedroom, Spiderman pajamas laid on his race-car shaped bed, topped by a black-and-white checkered comforter.
The back room that authorities took Elian from included an Associated Press photograph of Elian and the fisherman who rescued him being confronted by an armed federal agent.
...
Delfin Gonzalez bought the home November 2000 and converted it into a shrine, free to the public.
...
"To us, this day was almost equivalent to the Twin Towers day," said Deyanira Solis, referring to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. "My heart has been bleeding ever since for that little boy."
21304. greystoke - 10/22/2001 11:53:27 AM
rubberducky,
Yes, Deyanira sounds like a real moron.
The only thing missing from the article was the sighting of a cloud overhead with the image of the Virgin Mary just as the shrine opened. That would be another typical delusion from Cuban-Americans.
21305. robertjayb - 10/24/2001 12:36:48 AM
Wanna buy a kidney?
(AFP)--"One kidney for sale to patients with kidney-related illnesses for reasonable price" reads one of dozens of similar small notices on the wall of an alley in central Tehran, followed by a telephone number.
21306. Absensia - 10/24/2001 12:43:25 AM
Grey, the one big thing missing was the cost of admission for the shrine tour!
21307. rubberducky - 10/24/2001 10:30:14 AM
here's hoping the psycho finally gets his
MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- As testimony in O.J. Simpson's road-rage trial wrapped up, the prosecutor said the former football star has a story ready "every time he's stuck with something."
Prosecutor Abbe Rifkin made the remark Tuesday after Simpson said allegations that he reached inside a driver's car, grabbed his glasses and scratched his face were blown out of proportion.
The jury began hearing closing arguments Wednesday morning.
Simpson faces up to 16 years in prison if convicted of auto burglary and battery in the driving spat with Jeffrey Pattinson last year in their suburban Miami neighborhood.
Prosecutors say Simpson, 54, ran a stop sign, then pulled over to argue with Pattinson after the other driver flagged him down.
Simpson denied reaching into the car and said the men confronted each other outside their cars after Pattinson got him to pull over by flashing his lights and "sitting on his horn."
He said Pattinson lied about staying in his car, which led Rifkin to ask whether Simpson would ever lie, "especially if your life depended on it."
Simpson responded, "I've never been put in that position to have to lie with my life on the line."
...
Simpson offered no explanation for the scratch but explained his thumbprint on the glasses by saying it must have happened when he brushed them away as he broke off their 30-second, profanity-laced confrontation.
After Tuesday's session, Rifkin said Simpson "came up with a new story today, and I think that he comes up with a new story every time he's stuck with something."
21308. robertjayb - 10/24/2001 5:45:44 PM
Still elusive, O.J. walks...
MIAMI (AP) -- O.J. Simpson was acquitted Wednesday of grabbing another driver's glasses and scratching the man's face during a bout of road rage after insisting that the other man started it.
After the verdict, Simpson put his hand to his chest and mouthed ``thank you'' as he nodded toward the jury. He then hugged his lawyers and told the wife of lead attorney Yale Galanter, ``Your husband did great.''
The 54-year-old Simpson faced up to 16 years in jail had he been convicted of auto burglary and battery for last year's dispute with Jeffrey Pattinson in their suburban Miami neighborhood. The jury deliberated for about 90 minutes.
21309. judithathome - 10/24/2001 5:50:46 PM
Rats....
21310. don s. - 10/24/2001 5:57:34 PM
He then hugged his lawyers and told the wife of lead attorney Yale Galanter, ``Your husband did great.''
Whereupon Mrs. Galanter immediately petitioned for a restraining order
21311. robertjayb - 10/24/2001 9:44:27 PM
He asked for milk, you see...
LUSAKA (Reuters) - A Zambian man divorced his wife after he found a frog in a cup of tea she gave him, a Lusaka newspaper reported Tuesday.
The Post reported that 28-year-old Andrew Nyoka had left 26-year-old Catherine Nyoka last year for another woman.
``One time I found a frog in a cup of tea she had served me. That is the reason I went for another woman,'' the independent newspaper quoted Nyoka, whose surname means ``snake'' in English, as telling a community court.
Judges Chidongo Shawa and Wilson Makuwerere granted him a divorce, saying it was clear the couple's marriage could not be saved.
21312. robertjayb - 10/24/2001 10:01:20 PM
Well, she got their attention...
PHILADELPHIA -- Tired of the red tape involved in proving her son dead, a woman sent a baggie containing some of his ashes to the company processing his student loans.
The baggie and accompanying letter arrived at Sallie Mae's office in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., on Oct. 12 as concern was growing about anthrax-tainted letters.
"We treated it as it was an anthrax scare. It was a gray powdery substance," said company vice president Joseph Bailey.
21313. OhioSTOPAS - 10/25/2001 9:18:16 AM
Would that be forwarded to the dead letter office?
21314. OhioSTOPAS - 10/25/2001 9:18:43 AM
(Oh, gimme a break. SOMEONE had to say it.)
21315. CalGal - 10/25/2001 11:43:51 AM
Hyuk.
It's funny, last night I randomly picked an Agatha Christie novel to reread, one I probably hadn't read in 20 years. It was Cards on the Table, which I consider one of her ten best, written in the 30s.
In it, one of the characters was born in "Quetta, India". Another character was returning immediately to India to handle the Baluchistan situation.
I realized how distracting knowledge is. The first 80 times I'd read the book, I wouldn't have had to stop and remember that Pakistan wasn't on the event horizon for another ten years.
Then one of the murderers uses anthrax to kill a jealous husband.
Random. I swear it was a random pick.
21316. robertjayb - 10/25/2001 3:08:36 PM
WW One anthrax plot against horses, reindeer...
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swedish spy helped sow the seeds of today's anthrax bio-warfare scare as long ago as World War One when he plotted to poison reindeer and horses with anthrax-laced sugar cubes.
In mid-winter 1917, Germany sent Baron Otto Karl von Rosen, a mercenary from neutral Sweden, on a mission to sabotage British Arctic supply lines to its ally Russia, a crime historian told Reuters Wednesday.
Norwegian police arrested von Rosen with 19 sugar cubes containing tiny glass vials of anthrax -- the same lethal germ that has killed three people in the United States this month after being sent through the mail to officials and journalists.
21317. joezan - 10/25/2001 4:50:45 PM
Australian boxer Anthony Mundine says his comments about the USA deserving what it got were, ahem, "taken out of context".
Mundine apologized for the statements in "an open letter to the world" published on his Web site.
He said the comments "have been taken out of context by the Australian media" and apologized "to any person who may have been offended."
"I condemn killings on any side and all acts of terrorism. I am against any form or any shape of violence or killing," he said, adding that "my heart and soul goes out to those families who lost loved ones" in New York.
"What has been reported is not the real me," he said.
Mundine, 26, was a professional rugby player in Australia before switching to boxing. He has a record of 10-0, with eight knockouts. Only one of his bouts took place outside Australia.
"I am against any form or any shape of violence or killing," he said..."
...Mundine, 26, was a professional rugby player in Australia before switching to boxing. He has a record of 10-0, with eight knockouts. Only one of his bouts took place outside Australia.
Is it just me?
21318. rubberducky - 10/29/2001 1:01:33 PM
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Web magazine Slate.com and the Internet site of the British Broadcasting Corp. took top honors in the second annual Online Journalism Awards, selected from among 870 entries from 15 countries.
The awards, announced on Friday, also featured Indian Web site Rediff.com for its coverage of the Gujarat earthquake in January, and Salon.com for a series of reports on Clear Channel Communications, a powerful force in the radio industry.
...
``The showcase of journalism excellence created by the contest proves that reports of the death of Internet journalism have been greatly exaggerated,'' he said in a statement.
Slate.com, published by technology giant Microsoft Corp., won the award for general excellence in online journalism by an independent site. The BBC site was given the same award for affiliated Web sites.
21319. rubberducky - 10/29/2001 1:03:55 PM
Salon's run of articles on Clear Channel were very good, btw. worth checking out.
21320. PelleNilsson - 10/29/2001 1:32:06 PM
Why does Sweden have to be blamed for everything? We who are so intrinsically goooood.
21321. robertjayb - 10/31/2001 1:32:20 PM
But was he charged for a sauna? (or is that just the Finns?)
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swedish man got dragged into the swirling brushes of a giant car wash and came out with four broken ribs, a Swedish daily reported on Tuesday.
The 60-year-old man was using a high-pressure hose to clean his bus when the hose accidentally hit a sensor and activated the brushes, which trapped it.
As the man fought to free the hose, his foot got stuck and he was pulled in and pinned against one of the machine's rotating bristles, Dagens Nyheter reported.
It said a court awarded 6,000 crowns ($570) compensation to the man who was rescued after someone heard his screams and pushed the machine's emergency stop button.
21322. robertjayb - 10/31/2001 7:00:37 PM
Druid Alert! Blue Moon Tonight...
21323. Absensia - 10/31/2001 7:49:26 PM
Thanks Robertjayb, that is a cool article.
21324. robertjayb - 10/31/2001 11:27:02 PM
A November hurricane---Whadehay?
MIAMI (AP) -- A storm system dumping heavy rain over Nicaragua and Honduras strengthened into a tropical storm Wednesday, amid forecasts that it could become a hurricane and threaten the United States.
The storm, named Michelle, could become a hurricane with winds exceeding 74 mph by the weekend, forecasters said.
At 6 p.m. EST Wednesday, Michelle's center had moved into the Caribbean just off the border between Nicaragua and Honduras. It was drifting north at 4 mph.
The storm has caused significant flooding in Honduras, killing three people and forcing the evacuation of 25,000. Seven people were missing.
Some computerized forecasts show the storm striking the United States, perhaps by this weekend, but others show it turning west and striking Mexico, said Jack Beven, a hurricane specialist at the National Hurricane Center in Miami.
21325. joezan - 11/1/2001 7:46:46 AM
Anyone heard/read about the anthrax scare st the prosecutor's office in Cook County (Ill)?
I heard it on a Chicago radio station yesterday a.m., but not a word since.
Last week, an asst. prosecutor found a letter in his inbox from a guy he was prosecuting, and when he opened it discovered it contained a white powdery substance.
He had it checked, natch, and it turned out to be powdered sugar.
It also turned out to have been left by one of his buddies, another asst. prosecutor in the office.
The guy has resigned, and now faces 15 years in prison.
Brilliant.
21326. theDiva - 11/1/2001 8:38:58 AM
what a dumbass.
21327. robertjayb - 11/1/2001 11:19:03 PM
Don't Spook the Moose...
ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Two children trick-or-treating with their father Wednesday evening were run over by a bull moose the family may have spooked.
The children, 9-year-old Lydia Forbes and her 6-year-old brother, Taylor, were not seriously hurt, said their mother, Christine Forbes.
"He had a bloody nose, and she has a bruise on her back," Forbes said. "My husband was with them and just about got it too."
21328. janjon - 11/2/2001 3:52:11 PM
I'll remember that advice, robtj, the next time I venture forth to Central Park.
Actually, the Times reported today that a deer was killed on on a City street yesterday. Granted, up in Washington Heights which, while not as far north as the City goes, certainly not Manhattan. This a coyote a couple of years ago - what is this place becoming.
21329. theDiva - 11/2/2001 3:54:41 PM
Washington Heights near the Cloisters, or near 181st St?
21330. janjon - 11/2/2001 4:10:03 PM
beats me. The article said on a street near the Henry Hudson Parkway, which I believe would make near the Cloisters correct.
Say - what is wrong with you. I tried to bait you about your bernie (deservedly so) and you didn't rise.
21331. theDiva - 11/2/2001 4:14:02 PM
my dear, you are positively transparent. I have six younger brothers. Failing to rise to the bait is a lifelong habit.
21332. janjon - 11/2/2001 4:38:32 PM
yeah, well, bernie has been a real pistol lately.
21333. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 4:57:13 PM
Stupid is as stupid does...
CLEVELAND --AP== A man fractured his infant son's skull with his hands in an attempt to shape the boy's head to look more like his own, authorities say.
Joshua Brissett, 19, was arrested Oct. 12 and pleaded innocent to assault on the boy, 5-month-old Roosevelt Worsham.
The baby's mother, Shiara Worsham, was charged with child endangering. Prosecutors said she saw Brissett trying to shape the infant's head and waited three days to take him to the hospital last month after he began vomiting and refusing to eat.
The boy is recovering and is being cared for by relatives.
"A lot of babies are born looking funny," said Dr. Alan Cohen, chief of pediatric neurosurgery at Rainbow Babies & Children's Hospital. "Infants' skulls are very thin and their brain is immature. Trying to shape the skull could injure the infant, cause fractures or innercranial bleeding."
21334. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 5:45:39 PM
The neighbors' child, a preemie born in June, was really an odd-looking kid. His dad called him The Conehead. He is now a fine, husky fellow who scurries about merrily and stands when he wants (anchored by their patient Springer Spaniel).
21335. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 5:52:04 PM
No, No. Please send me into combat instead!
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Las Vegas lounge singer Wayne Newton joined President Bush at the White House Friday to launch this year's USO holiday tour -- a spirit-lifting deployment of entertainers for American troops, ``some of whom will be facing extreme danger in the months ahead,'' Bush said.
Newton, teen pop starlet Jessica Simpson, country singer Neal McCoy and comedian Rob Schneider leave Nov. 12 for a weeklong Thanksgiving tour of overseas posts, some of which house troops involved in the U.S. bombing of terrorist targets in Afghanistan. The entertainers will perform in Budapest and Kosovo, and also on an aircraft carrier that United Service Organization officials would not identify, citing security concerns.
21336. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 5:54:03 PM
Better yet---drop Wayne Newton on the Taliban.
21337. joezan - 11/2/2001 6:02:07 PM
Both our daughters were gruesome, hairy things at birth - the older one worse. We didn't even take pictures of them till they were around 2 months old.
They both had black fur around the ridges of their ears, Eddie Munster sideburns and widow's peaks, and hair running down their backs to their shoulder blades.
With the first one, I was actually stunned into dumbfounded silence after they'd washed her off, thinking we'd birthed some sort of throwback. I swear - I checked for a vestigial tail at the tip of her spine.
Within weeks, though, she had lost her hair - all of it -including her one big hairy eyebrow, which actually connected to her hairline at the temple. It took a few months to all come back in - a beautiful sandy brown, thick head of hair which has gradually darkened since.
I must admit, I considered many times shaving it all off, so I kinda sympathize wiith that guy.
21338. arkymalarky - 11/2/2001 6:19:01 PM
Joe, I must say you have the ability to stun me with purely innocent posts more than just about anybody else on this forum. I don't know if you should take that as a compliment or not.
21339. joezan - 11/2/2001 6:31:40 PM
Well, I was only kidding about sympathizing with the guy.
21340. robertjayb - 11/2/2001 6:43:57 PM
21341. robertjayb - 11/3/2001 1:36:02 AM 21342. robertjayb - 11/3/2001 1:37:22 AM Yipe? 21343. robertjayb - 11/3/2001 6:26:59 PM Michelle is a Category 4 storm last reported moving at 3 m.p.h. 21344. ronski - 11/3/2001 6:29:43 PM It's also been an unusual storm, one of the very few huricanes to have more or less begun on land. 21345. robertjayb - 11/5/2001 5:17:51 PM Spy Cats in the CIA?...(BBC) 21346. joezan - 11/5/2001 10:54:24 PM There is right now a gorgeous display of Northern Lights here - I've never seen them except for a few years ago, but that time they were barely visible, and white. 21347. AuNaturel - 11/5/2001 11:50:19 PM The closer to the magnetic poles you get the better they tend to be. 21348. AuNaturel - 11/5/2001 11:51:23 PM Robjay: 21349. robertjayb - 11/6/2001 12:20:06 AM Well, it seems there is now a storm named Noel way northeast of the remains of Michelle. How the name Noel shows up in the above link is a total mystery to me, but the info comes from Newsday's weather page: 21350. robertjayb - 11/6/2001 2:10:34 PM Regarding joezan's aurora borealis sighting: 21351. robertjayb - 11/6/2001 2:20:52 PM Hurricane Michelle: 21352. thoughtful - 11/6/2001 2:28:09 PM Dang! I've always wanted to see the northern lights and never have. Looks like I missed an opportunity last night. Shoot! If only they made some noise so I'd know to go outside and look. 21353. Property of Jesus - 11/6/2001 2:37:42 PM The Fed cuts rates .500 to 2 percent, and says it's prepared to go even lower to get the economy back on track. 21354. PelleNilsson - 11/6/2001 2:55:04 PM thoughtful 21355. thoughtful - 11/6/2001 3:54:51 PM Pelle, I'll have to listen closely, but it might just be my husband in the bathroom. 21356. joezan - 11/6/2001 6:16:46 PM thoughtful: 21357. arkymalarky - 11/6/2001 6:29:04 PM Cool. It sort of freaked out some of my students to see the red-orange sky last night. I didn't see it, but I'll be on the lookout tonight. 21358. joezan - 11/6/2001 6:58:43 PM It was blue and green (mostly) up here. At first, it looked like thick, blue-tinted contrails streaking across the entire sky, and fairly static. 21359. Absensia - 11/6/2001 7:12:43 PM Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh....it sounds so beautiful. Wonderful description, Joe. I hope I can see them here, but it has been overcast and cloudy, as usual. 21360. Absensia - 11/6/2001 11:16:42 PM Went out and looked. All I saw were clouds and clouds and clouds. Can you see them, Joe? 21361. robertjayb - 11/7/2001 3:59:23 AM 21362. robertjayb - 11/7/2001 4:33:30 AM Okay, go here and click on Aurora Gallery> 21363. thoughtful - 11/7/2001 8:50:56 AM Wow! Incredible. One of these days...er rather nights! 21364. Absensia - 11/7/2001 8:58:07 AM Incredible indeed. Thanks, Robertjay. 21365. robertjayb - 11/9/2001 6:04:35 PM Ham-handed defense... 21366. robertjayb - 11/9/2001 6:09:27 PM This is news? 21367. Cellar Door - 11/9/2001 6:11:29 PM 21368. robertjayb - 11/10/2001 12:25:36 AM Definitely not for mealtime reading... 21369. CalGal - 11/10/2001 12:32:16 AM Ewwwwww, ick. 21370. joezan - 11/10/2001 12:51:22 AM I wonder if the kids get to keep the skin? 21371. Cellar Door - 11/10/2001 12:57:59 AM Meryl Streep would be perfect for the movie. 21372. Shannon - 11/10/2001 5:24:35 PM Ken Kesey died. 21373. CalGal - 11/10/2001 5:30:04 PM Yeah, I linked in the Times obit in the Lit section. It was long, clearly they'd been planning on his death for a while. (g) 21374. Shannon - 11/10/2001 6:18:02 PM Heh. I told hubster he died, and he said "I didn't realize he was still alive." 21375. Al D - 11/10/2001 8:54:59 PM Yes Ken Kesey died, and more's the pity. He produced two great novels. When he was at Stanford, the French writer, Jean Genet, who was infatuated with the Black Panthers, was asked to speak to them at a cocktail party At Stanford. The Panthers arrived in black leather jackets and dark glasses, their full military attire. 21376. Cellar Door - 11/10/2001 8:59:14 PM Great story, Al. You were lucky to have met him. 21377. Al D - 11/10/2001 9:06:58 PM Cellar 21378. Absensia - 11/11/2001 8:23:01 AM Child Neglect is only rates manslaughter? 21379. wabbit - 11/12/2001 9:58:17 AM from CNN.com - An American Airlines 767 has crashed in the Queens borough of New York City. The FAA identifies the flight as American flight 587, from JFK to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic. 21380. rubberducky - 11/13/2001 9:18:55 AM Voice Recorder Indicates Plane Crash Was Accident 21381. CalGal - 11/13/2001 12:54:41 PM Ducky, 21382. CalGal - 11/13/2001 1:03:31 PM 21383. Ms. No - 11/13/2001 2:03:46 PM What is it with men (and women) who continue to live with people they KNOW are crazy? 21384. glendajean - 11/13/2001 3:25:37 PM A co-worker told me that two people who barely escaped being at the World Trade Center on 11/9 died in the American Airlines crash yesterday. One was a restaurant worker and the other was a guy whose last day at WTC was 9/10. 21385. CalGal - 11/13/2001 3:32:57 PM Oh, no. Please don't let that be true. 21386. Erin R. - 11/13/2001 3:37:53 PM Oh, that's awful! 21387. Cellar Door - 11/13/2001 5:12:27 PM Raciual Profiling at the polls. 21388. CalGal - 11/13/2001 5:14:14 PM I just read that both engines came off before the plane crashed? That seems awfully odd. 21389. judithathome - 11/13/2001 5:20:41 PM I heard yesterday that there was evidence of dumped fuel in the bay but last night saw a crawl saying the Coast Guard didn't find any...seemed odd to me that they could've dumped fuel when they were only in the air for about 2 minutes. Has anyone heard anything about the fuel today? 21390. Ms. No - 11/13/2001 5:26:29 PM Judith, 21391. janjon - 11/13/2001 5:35:44 PM Events like this always seem to give rise to not only confusing/ed but inconsistent "truths" as to what happened. Some nearby insist they heard an explosion; others say not. 21392. Snowowl - 11/13/2001 5:38:00 PM News headlines on the BBC say that a rattling was heard in the cockpit just before the crash. There's no further information at present. 21393. CalGal - 11/13/2001 5:40:17 PM They didn't have sufficient time for a fuel dump; Pataki said they'd dumped it because people saw liquid, or something. 21394. janjon - 11/13/2001 5:48:00 PM I suspect the scenario would go something like this: influx of birds causes one engine to malfunction, even stop, during a period of extreme stress for the plane (less than two minutes from takeoff and thus still at high rpms, etc.), causing severe instability for the plane, resulting at first with severe shaking and, probably, with all efforts in the cabin being to restore balance, etc.), with the stress causing the engine (and then the wing) to fall off. (I understand that the engines are designed to fall off in certain dire circumstances.) 21395. janjon - 11/13/2001 5:49:51 PM Birds being sucked into jet engines have been the cause of crashes in the past. Including in NYC if my memory serves. 21396. CalGal - 11/13/2001 7:25:53 PM Oh, I'm sure it has. It's certainly a risk. But I find it hard to believe that both engines would fall off as a result. It is extremely rare for both to fall off, according to da experts. 21397. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 8:17:48 PM Where was it said both engines fell off? 21398. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 8:18:41 PM Assuming that occured before the plane itself came apart. 21399. CalGal - 11/13/2001 8:24:07 PM The plane wouldn't come apart, it crashed. 21400. joezan - 11/13/2001 10:01:06 PM I heard earlier today that birds in the engines had been definitely ruled out. 21401. Absensia - 11/13/2001 10:04:35 PM It would be great if they did, Joe. But there are so many reports of bad maintenance. And remember, all contracts for all parts go to the lowest bidder. 21402. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:16:26 PM They said this plane's engines had a history of problems and that a month ago some kind of advisory had been issued about them--I guess to airport maintenance crews. 21403. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:17:32 PM I also had heard birds had been ruled out. I also thought that force could cause a plane to come apart under certain conditions, but physics is certainly not my forte. 21404. Absensia - 11/13/2001 10:22:02 PM Has to be something very wrong. For it to crash that soon after takeoff would mean a stall if nothing else was wrong. But the plane and instruments almost rule that out. I guess if the plane vibrated enough the engines would fall off, as would the tail section. Maybe from this explosion people keep talking about. 21405. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:25:03 PM I thought they'd done maintenance just a day or two before. 21406. Snowowl - 11/13/2001 10:29:24 PM This article talks about uncontained engine failures in other planes with the same type of engine. 21407. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:33:34 PM Thanks, Snow. 21408. arkymalarky - 11/13/2001 10:39:19 PM That article put everything in one place that I'd been hearing bits and pieces of, including what I'd heard about accounts of pieces flying off of the plane before it crashed, other than the first engine and tail. 21409. Snowowl - 11/13/2001 10:43:13 PM I'm supposed to be going overseas next month. Believe me, I do not feel like flying at this particular time. I'm not in the least scared of terrorist attacks, but I've always been a nervous flyer and for some reason planes ALWAYS crash just before I'm due to fly. 21410. Absensia - 11/13/2001 11:04:02 PM Arky, I hadn't seen that, but I do wonder what maintenance they did. 21411. joezan - 11/14/2001 1:59:23 AM The plane's maintenance record was reported on Monday. The engines are scheduled for required overhauls every 10,000 hours. One of the engines had flown just 200 hours or so since its last overhaul - the other engine had flown over 9,600 hours since its last overhaul. 21412. janjon - 11/14/2001 10:50:23 AM There are reports that the "box" that records cockpit conversation indicates that the plane underwent severe turbulence. There is much thought that this was somehow caused by the wake of the plane that took off just prior to the AA flight. That plane was a Japan Airlines 747. 21413. concerned - 11/15/2001 12:37:52 AM Re. 21412 - 21414. robertjayb - 11/15/2001 12:46:35 AM Another victim of Texas Tower sniper: 21415. concerned - 11/15/2001 1:08:25 AM I don't think I'll ever board an Airbust jetliner if either the tail section failure turns out to be due to shoddy manufacture or the engines were not properly attached to the wings with shear bolts. 21416. AytchMan - 11/16/2001 4:49:29 PM Three items from the Cybercrime site: 21417. CalGal - 11/16/2001 4:55:22 PM I think the Internet tax ban is a bad idea; the states could use the revenue. 21418. AytchMan - 11/16/2001 5:03:59 PM Internet taxes are inevitable; the question is when. I don't want to see them but there's no good case to be made against. 21419. AytchMan - 11/16/2001 5:14:32 PM As for airport security, an increase is warranted and inevitable. However, I don't foresee any more WTC-type attacks, short of a terrorist platoon armed with heavy weapons occupying an entire airport. Any group of three or four lightly-armed baddies would be unceremoniously beaten to death by enraged passengers before reaching the cockpit door. 21420. CalGal - 11/16/2001 5:15:59 PM Screaming, "Wait! You don't understand! I just want to go to Cuba!" 21421. janjon - 11/16/2001 5:19:02 PM anyone catch the story on the Lehrer Report last night about the airline attendants voluntarily attending self-defense schools? It was rather touching, actually. 21422. AytchMan - 11/16/2001 5:20:47 PM cal-- 21423. CalGal - 11/16/2001 5:24:22 PM Of course, to my mind, we should have always beat the pulp out of hijackers. I have always been suspected that if I were ever on a hijacked plane I would be the first passenger killed by other passengers, outraged at this idiot who actually thought hijackers shouldn't go exactly where they wanted to. 21424. judithathome - 11/16/2001 6:24:11 PM outraged at this idiot who actually thought hijackers shouldn't go exactly where they wanted to. 21425. CalGal - 11/16/2001 6:27:33 PM That's a thought. But it's such an inconvenience to the rest of the passengers. I like the idea of cutting off blood supply with the headset cords. 21426. judithathome - 11/16/2001 6:28:53 PM That'd be fine, too. 21427. robertjayb - 11/16/2001 9:17:29 PM Another bad news letter? 21428. robertjayb - 11/17/2001 12:39:05 AM Wake Turbulence can kill...(Salon) 21429. glendajean - 11/19/2001 9:58:26 AM Here's an article from the Guardian about being gay in Eygpt. 21430. CalGal - 11/19/2001 2:06:46 PM How bizarre that they would consider it a European vice. 21431. PelleNilsson - 11/19/2001 2:11:38 PM The Egyptians are sophisticated fellows. The don't think that all eveil comes from the US. 21432. PelleNilsson - 11/19/2001 2:12:10 PM evil 21433. PelleNilsson - 11/19/2001 2:12:44 PM They. What is this? 21434. PelleNilsson - 11/19/2001 2:13:18 PM Could it be a senior movement? 21435. robertjayb - 11/20/2001 10:21:51 AM Didn't duck duck, died... 21436. robertjayb - 11/20/2001 10:40:01 AM Pecking the Presidential Pecker? 21437. robertjayb - 11/20/2001 10:40:52 AM toys 21438. thoughtful - 11/20/2001 10:56:23 AM How come when Bill did it everyone cried impeachment....W does it and everyone just smiles? 21439. Cellar Door - 11/20/2001 11:13:36 AM Thanks for that link, glendajean. 21440. glendajean - 11/20/2001 11:33:02 AM I just heard that President Bush has named the Justice Deparment building after Robert Kennedy. Is this old news? 21441. arkymalarky - 11/20/2001 5:35:09 PM Robert, 21442. Indiana Jones - 11/20/2001 5:39:39 PM gj: I think Stone (PoJ) said something about it the other day. 21443. arkymalarky - 11/20/2001 5:44:18 PM A 90-something year old woman in Connecticut is suspected to have inhalation anthrax. 21444. robertjayb - 11/20/2001 6:04:17 PM But did they have a search warrant? 21445. robertjayb - 11/20/2001 6:05:51 PM Arky, 21446. Cellar Door - 11/20/2001 6:32:01 PM 21447. robertjayb - 11/23/2001 3:07:31 PM He didn't know the gun was loaded. Honest. 21448. robertjayb - 11/23/2001 3:17:47 PM Isn't this a script from West Wing? 21449. greystoke - 11/23/2001 3:55:24 PM Message # 21436 21450. Absensia - 11/23/2001 3:56:56 PM Hahahaha. 21451. joezan - 11/25/2001 2:02:04 PM This just came in my email: 21452. wonkers2 - 11/25/2001 6:20:48 PM Har de har! That's a good one! 21453. greystoke - 11/25/2001 7:59:05 PM Those pumpkin innards get cold on a November evening. I recommend taking the pumpkin of your dreams home and warm it up a little before having your way with it. 21454. Absensia - 11/25/2001 8:04:59 PM Sounds like you have some pumpkin experience, grey. ;) 21455. greystoke - 11/25/2001 8:10:58 PM Absensia, 21456. greystoke - 11/25/2001 8:30:13 PM Sex between humans and one celled organisms is called "yeastiality". Just thought y'all would want to know. 21457. joezan - 11/25/2001 8:41:59 PM Uggghhhh... 21458. joezan - 11/25/2001 8:44:50 PM Pumpin' the ol' pumpkin? 21459. joezan - 11/25/2001 8:45:26 PM Jack(-O'-Lantern)ing off? 21460. joezan - 11/25/2001 8:45:52 PM Gettin' a little veg-ina? 21461. joezan - 11/25/2001 8:46:14 PM Squirt'n the squash? 21462. greystoke - 11/25/2001 8:51:07 PM Joe, 21463. Absensia - 11/25/2001 9:13:22 PM Perverted and profane. 21464. joezan - 11/25/2001 9:14:38 PM Hey - I wonder if they have their own magazines devoted to such endeavors? 21465. Absensia - 11/25/2001 9:27:26 PM "Do you have a zucchini in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?" 21466. joezan - 11/25/2001 9:32:37 PM Hah!!! 21467. Absensia - 11/25/2001 9:36:25 PM Hahahahahahahaa. Don't give up your day job to become a professional gardener just yet. 21468. joezan - 11/25/2001 9:42:01 PM Hey - I've got all kinds of marketing schemes brewing right now.... 21469. OhioSTOPAS - 11/25/2001 10:29:39 PM Cornifation? 21470. Absensia - 11/25/2001 10:34:48 PM And the beet goes on. 21471. wonkers2 - 11/25/2001 11:01:02 PM Joezan--that was a clear case of police brutality! The least Officer Brenda Taylor could have done, before the arrest, was offer to accommodate him in his time of need! 21472. Cellar Door - 11/26/2001 10:26:04 AM 21473. CalGal - 11/26/2001 10:30:48 AM As Sept. 11 Widows Unite, Grief Finds Political Voice 21474. Ms. No - 11/27/2001 6:35:23 PM I'll Clone a Baby in the UK 21475. Ms. No - 11/27/2001 6:36:09 PM cont. 21476. wonkers2 - 11/27/2001 9:04:58 PM I'm with you. I'm not ready to sign on for human cloning, but it would be a crime to stop therapeutic cloning with all its promise for curing a variety of dreadful diseases. Equating embryos with humans is an extreme, simplistic and misguided view. Allowing therapeutic cloning does not mean that human cloning could not be prohibited. 21477. wonkers2 - 11/27/2001 9:17:58 PM There was a long article in today's NYT about the Nov 16 disappearance of Harvard biochemistry professor and ebola virus expert, Don Wiley. He had no history of mental health problems, no family or financial problems and was intensely involved with the upbringing of his two young children, according to Fox Butterfield's article in today's NYT. 21478. robertjayb - 11/28/2001 6:09:36 AM A tank roared in. It fired four rounds. Then there was silence in the fort....(Guardian) 21479. wonkers2 - 11/28/2001 7:40:35 AM Destroying is easy. Re-building is another matter. 21480. robertjayb - 11/28/2001 5:16:51 PM The end of Enron? But what will we call the ballpark? 21481. robertjayb - 11/28/2001 5:24:14 PM Sixty-one cents... 21482. judithathome - 11/28/2001 5:25:29 PM I'll bet Jexster is celebrating tonight! 21483. robertjayb - 11/28/2001 5:41:40 PM And such a lovely place... 21484. robertjayb - 11/28/2001 11:52:04 PM Defending dwarf tossing... 21485. Absensia - 11/29/2001 12:00:25 AM Those Bush brothers...they just take away everyone's fun. 21486. Shannon - 11/29/2001 9:52:38 AM Candidates for stupid crook of the year award 21487. robertjayb - 11/29/2001 2:55:45 PM Probably not what Cole Porter had in mind... 21488. Ms. No - 11/29/2001 3:03:32 PM Shannon, is that Zebulon, NC? 21489. Ms. No - 11/29/2001 3:07:14 PM Oh, sorry, I see that it's Georgia. 21490. judithathome - 11/29/2001 3:16:19 PM What's this I hear about a 12,000 pound bundle of food packets falling on a house in Afghanistan and killing a woman there? 21491. Shannon - 11/29/2001 3:37:33 PM There's a Zebulon in NC, too? 21492. robertjayb - 11/29/2001 5:27:56 PM Lookee here, fellas, I got a big 'un! 21493. robertjayb - 11/29/2001 5:40:30 PM judith, 21494. judithathome - 11/29/2001 5:47:26 PM ooops. Thanks, Robert! 21495. robertjayb - 11/29/2001 6:13:11 PM It reminds of a probably apocryphal, and certainly embellished, tale told by RCAF C-130 crewmen who flew supply missions to outposts in the arctic. These were amazing guys who flew in all kinds of conditions that would keep USAF snugly on the ground. 21496. robertjayb - 11/29/2001 8:06:31 PM Oh, those randy Brits! 21497. robertjayb - 11/30/2001 5:11:26 PM My Backyard--(sp)--A hawk just swooped through and posed for a few minutes on the sidefence. A sharp-shinned hawk, I think. Probably fleeing the weather "up North" Neat treat. I heart raptors. 21498. ronski - 11/30/2001 5:32:15 PM We have had one in semi-permanent residence since last spring in my area, as well as numbers of the increasingly common red-tailed hawks. 21499. robertjayb - 11/30/2001 6:28:43 PM Swedish dolly---a Barbie for big boys... 21500. robertjayb - 12/2/2001 5:19:42 PM Bankruptcy for Enron 21501. Ms. No - 12/4/2001 2:00:54 PM VIRUS ALERT!!! 21502. judithathome - 12/6/2001 3:36:53 PM 35 people injured in a shooting at an factory in Goshen, Indiana...no fatalities reported yet. 21503. Ms. No - 12/7/2001 5:22:17 PM If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out. 21504. wonkers2 - 12/7/2001 9:56:05 PM It's not very big around, but it's really short! 21505. robertjayb - 12/10/2001 1:22:38 PM Works for me...especially hot ginger brandy... 21506. Cellar Door - 12/10/2001 1:47:25 PM 21507. judithathome - 12/10/2001 6:23:39 PM This may make you think about how you use your POSTAGE next time you mail a letter. And be careful not to put those flag stamps upside down. 21508. concerned - 12/10/2001 6:31:13 PM Hell, I've done worse that that. I've been known to put the postage stamp on the opposite corner of the envelope. 21509. robertjayb - 12/10/2001 6:33:39 PM Good to know the postal inspectors are on the job in our new America. 21510. judithathome - 12/10/2001 6:34:04 PM Watch it or the postal authorities will be coming to your house! 21511. judithathome - 12/10/2001 6:34:49 PM Yeah, Robert, I feel safer already! 21512. Al D - 12/10/2001 7:09:49 PM I have a question. Do you put your stamp on the right or left side of the envelope? 21513. concerned - 12/10/2001 7:13:24 PM I wonder if anybody has ever tried to make geometrical patterns on envelopes with 1 cent stamps. 21514. AytchMan - 12/10/2001 9:47:34 PM They're lucky they weren't shot trying to escape. 21515. CalGal - 12/11/2001 2:23:42 PM Gulf War Veterans have twice the risk of getting ALS 21516. Ms. No - 12/11/2001 2:35:49 PM I can see why they got questioned about the postage. It likely had mostly to do with the dollar amount. It's a bit fishy for a legitimate group to not only go to the hassle of buying so many stamps but also the expense. Depending on what they're mailing there are bulk rates available and if this is something they do with any regularity it would definitely raise questions with the postal workers---as it should in light of recent events. 21517. robertjayb - 12/11/2001 4:18:36 PM Perhaps he is interested in something other than your patriotism. 21518. thoughtful - 12/12/2001 8:39:23 AM It is with sadness today that I learned that Michael Kinsley of Slate fame, one who brought many of us current and former moties together in this forum, has Parkinson's disease. Best of luck, Michael. 21519. judithathome - 12/12/2001 8:41:28 AM Damn.... 21520. judithathome - 12/12/2001 1:46:07 PM B 1 bomber down in the Indain Ocean 30 miles off Diego Garcia; was returning after a bombing run on Afghanistan. They are in contact with at least one person in the water...good sign, at least. 21521. judithathome - 12/12/2001 1:48:12 PM They are saying now that since all 4 crewmen would eject as a unit, there may be no fatalies. 21522. rubberducky - 12/12/2001 2:29:26 PM 21523. robertjayb - 12/13/2001 5:28:21 PM Speaking of postage stamps... 21524. rubberducky - 12/14/2001 10:30:59 AM Winona Ryder Arrested for Shoplifting 21525. judithathome - 12/14/2001 10:50:01 AM Just watch...she will check into ReHab and be praised for her bravery...whereas, if it were any of us, we'd be thrown in the slammer. 21526. rubberducky - 12/18/2001 9:43:54 AM close, J@H! 21527. judithathome - 12/18/2001 11:06:41 AM Pathetic...but predictable. 21528. LohrM - 12/18/2001 2:33:03 PM I dunno-- I certainly enjoy doing research like that. (I once furnished my apartment with furniture from the museum where I worked) Winona should never go to re-hab. Re-hab is such a namby-pamby thing. Just shrug and say, "Yeah, I just did it for fun-- or to ruin the store's day. Screw 'em!" Malice is far better a reason than some 'emotional problem'. 21529. Al D - 12/18/2001 2:39:53 PM ter the terrorist attack, we found out that food is necessary for national security. Farmers sent their lobbyists to Washington to tell congressmen that recent "terrorist attacks have bolstered the argument that food production is vital to the national interest." In response, Congress is rushing to enact H.R. 2646, which would add an extra $69 billion to already planned farm handouts. The earlier bill was titled the Agriculture Act of 2001. After the terrorist attack, it was renamed the Farm Security Act of 2001, taking into account the newly discovered fact that food is "vital to national interest." It passed 291 to 120. 21530. Al D - 12/18/2001 3:09:53 PM One of Irans most influential ruling clerics called on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only". 21531. ronski - 12/18/2001 4:02:40 PM Al, 21532. ronski - 12/18/2001 4:05:33 PM Doug Bandow's "Patriotic Scoundrels". 21533. Al D - 12/18/2001 7:27:51 PM Ronski 21534. bubbaette - 12/18/2001 9:03:17 PM I already toll ya that, Al. Didn't believe me, didja? 21535. Al D - 12/18/2001 10:01:14 PM Well, I guess then there is nothing to worry about, since you have explained it all. So if the Congress passes a stimulas package that gives gazillions to large corps. it's just that ol democracy at work. And all that money to the airlines, which didn't seem to lower prices any, well that's jus dat ole democracy. 21536. Cellar Door - 12/19/2001 5:43:31 PM 21537. CalGal - 12/19/2001 5:57:49 PM It is with sadness today that I learned that Michael Kinsley of Slate fame, one who brought many of us current and former moties together in this forum, has Parkinson's disease. 21538. ronski - 12/19/2001 6:03:37 PM Only in the feverish dreams of the left can Enron's numerous entanglements with government be described as anarcho-capitalism. 21539. judithathome - 12/19/2001 6:11:54 PM No kidding, that's rape. 21540. Cellar Door - 12/19/2001 6:51:48 PM Only in the feverish dreams of the right can further handouts to corporations be considered an "Economic Stimulus Package." 21541. bubbaette - 12/19/2001 8:59:59 PM Al 21542. jonesatlaw - 12/19/2001 9:17:01 PM I can vouch for what bubaette says. When Nebraska's congressional delegation is democrat or GOP, the farm supports are supported, regardless of party. The state votes GOP as regularly as a watch in the Presidential race, and the GOP usually controls state government. However, the farm support proposal that our senators and reps vote for is the one who hands out the largest dole. 21543. Al D - 12/19/2001 9:25:28 PM South Dakota is a farm state, as is Montana, Indiana. That is why both Senators from those states are Republican. And by the way, jones, it is bubbaette. 21544. CalGal - 12/19/2001 9:31:24 PM That is why both Senators from those states are Republican. 21545. Al D - 12/19/2001 9:47:16 PM Cal Gal 21546. Al D - 12/19/2001 9:49:57 PM that those receiving the largesse are more likely to vote Republican than Democratic -- 21547. arkymalarky - 12/27/2001 6:19:35 PM They just found that little girl who'd been taken in a bus station, unharmed, in a home in West Virginia. Cynic that I am, I had assumed this was another Susan Smith situation. 21548. CalGal - 12/27/2001 6:21:32 PM I had too, until I realized the mother was black and poor. That made it seem less likely. 21549. arkymalarky - 12/27/2001 6:22:24 PM The mother is white. The father is black. 21550. CalGal - 12/27/2001 6:24:48 PM Ah, I'd just seen pictures of the little girl. Had I known the mom was white, I'd have still been suspicious. Anyway, I'm glad the kid is okay. I just couldn't cope with loathing another evil, vicious mother this close to the holidays. 21551. arkymalarky - 12/27/2001 6:24:53 PM I saw her on TV this morning, and it just reminded me so much of Susan Smith pleading with the TV camera, with her husband sitting there, for whoever took her child to please just return her. 21552. CalGal - 12/27/2001 6:26:36 PM Yeah, I'd only read it in passing in the Sun Times (on my way to Ebert) and instantly thought, "oh, please, don't let be another case like that." Then I was listening to CNN--it's where I saw the picture--and the host was being pretty tough on the mother's actions, which I thought was quite sensible. So clearly, our attitudes have changed in the last 8 years. 21553. arkymalarky - 12/27/2001 6:28:09 PM I still remember visiting my grandmother years ago in Dallas one Christmas holiday and a local woman, who was poor and black, had pleaded on camera for a return of her two children who were missing. They were found in a dumpster and the mother was charged with murder. 21554. arkymalarky - 12/27/2001 6:29:41 PM Yes, attitudes have changed, and the mother was unbelievably stupid. There may even be more to the story (cynicism kicking in again), such as money changing hands or something like that. 21555. CalGal - 12/27/2001 6:35:06 PM Yeah, I'm sure my prejudices are unfounded. But I've noticed a (very rough) correlation between the type of abuse based in part on color and income. Middle class white girls are the ones who don't have abortions ("good girls don't") but will then leave their newborn baby in a trashbin or kill it and hope maybe no one will notice. And it seems that middleclass women are more likely to kill their children deliberately, poor women more likely to kill them through abuse or anger. 21556. arkymalarky - 12/27/2001 6:41:57 PM Chris Rock did a hilarious skit on crime and race once on SNL. "Guy knocks down an old lady and grabs her welfare check in the stairwell of the projects--it's a black guy. Guy murders a stranger, takes their eyeballs out and plays clackers with them--it's a white guy." 21557. CalGal - 12/27/2001 6:43:38 PM Ha! Yeah, that's it. 21558. Shannon - 1/1/2002 3:28:32 PM This seems to be one for the stupid criminals hall of fame 21559. arkymalarky - 1/1/2002 3:34:40 PM Great arguments for genetic purity, aren't they? 21560. wonkers2 - 1/1/2002 9:10:45 PM I don't remember any mention of KKK activity in or around Baton Rouge when I lived there. I have heard the biggest chapter in the country was or is?? in the Anderson, Indiana, area. 21561. Shannon - 1/1/2002 9:20:35 PM I've heard that too, about Anderson. These guys were mostly in Livingston Parish, which I gather is the site of some amount of Klan activity on a regular basis. 21562. thoughtful - 1/2/2002 12:02:36 PM From CNN: The winning numbers for the Massachusetts State Lottery's "Daily Numbers" game for Monday, New Year's Eve, were the digits of the new year: 2-0-0-2. 21563. arkymalarky - 1/2/2002 12:40:53 PM The Grand Dragon of the KKK used to live in Harrison, AR. I don't know if that's still the case. 21564. robertjayb - 1/3/2002 7:06:04 PM Good grief! 21565. joezan - 1/3/2002 10:17:51 PM Atlanta gets SIX FRIGGIN' INCHES, and it's news????!!!!! 21566. iiibbb - 1/3/2002 10:41:14 PM 100 2000 lb bombs then an AC-130. 21567. joezan - 1/3/2002 10:45:34 PM I thought the same thing reading that story, IB. 21568. robertjayb - 1/4/2002 1:56:29 PM Another Glock shooting---this time by a three-year-old...Safe guns...sure 21569. judithathome - 1/4/2002 2:00:28 PM It's not guns that kill people, it's armed toddlers that kill people... 21570. judithathome - 1/4/2002 2:00:46 PM toys 21571. iiibbb - 1/4/2002 3:34:36 PM Message # 21568 Rule 1 is to not let a toddler get a hold of a gun to begin with... any gun. The officer broke a fundamental safety rule... if anything in proves that a)just becuase they're a cop doesn't mean their competent with a weapon, and b) all the training in the world won't protect you if you don't follow the rules. 21572. robertjayb - 1/4/2002 11:32:46 PM Handgun safety...See, it's perfectly safe... 21573. Al D - 1/4/2002 11:55:26 PM Perhaps Congress should outlaw idiots. 21574. joezan - 1/4/2002 11:59:24 PM Hey - if they did that they could do away with term limits! 21575. iiibbb - 1/5/2002 10:09:42 AM Safety rules abound, with recurrent themes of: "> 21577. iiibbb - 1/5/2002 10:21:31 AM Safety quiz... how many rules is senator Feinstein breaking in this picture? 21578. robertjayb - 1/5/2002 12:44:48 PM You just can't be too careful... 21579. joezan - 1/5/2002 12:48:42 PM Give that man a Purple Heart. 21580. iiibbb - 1/5/2002 2:02:18 PM precisely an accident the glock safeties are designed to prevent. There is an actual physical barrier between the firing pin and the primer that isn't moved until the trigger is about halfway back. In addition, the firing pin is not fully tensioned until the trigger is all the way back... not enough potential energy to set off the primer. 21581. Adrianne - 1/5/2002 9:19:25 PM Hmmm, Congress outlawing idiots.... 21582. Adrianne - 1/5/2002 9:19:48 PM The shot went through three offices and finally lodged in the wall of an office down the hall. It was a midnight shift - the office was deserted. No one was injured, let alone killed. But had he been on day shift, a clerk whose desk was in front of the wall in which the bullet finally lodged, almost certainly could have been. 21583. iiibbb - 1/6/2002 2:10:34 AM However... ultimately it comes down to human error... in particular a human neglecting the basic safety rules... it's not the gun. 21584. iiibbb - 1/6/2002 11:32:13 AM The one time I almost got seriously hurt caving (not the time I got stuck) because I broke a safty rule. Immediately afterward I tried to rationalize what happened (like most people do after they experience a near-miss), but my friend joe summed it far better. He said "you fucked up". It's nice to have friends who don't beat around the bush. 21585. rubberducky - 1/8/2002 10:30:01 AM truly, a sad day: 21586. CalGal - 1/8/2002 1:11:14 PM That really is sad. I liked him a lot; he was a very nice man. From what I remember, he tried to retire in the early 80s but then took the company back when it was flailing and restored its popularity with his ads and an emphasis on the customer. 21587. judithathome - 1/8/2002 2:12:44 PM Their Frosties are superb, however. 21588. thoughtful - 1/9/2002 4:51:24 PM Harry Potter in Drag? Mr. Blackwell does it again. 21589. concerned - 1/10/2002 6:50:18 PM Didn't know there was Moore than one scumbag with that name Dept.: 21590. robertjayb - 1/10/2002 9:03:54 PM Classic old thumper goes to glory. R.I.P. 21591. robertjayb - 1/11/2002 10:42:20 AM Gee, who woulda thunk it? 21592. CalGal - 1/12/2002 1:03:43 AM Well, that's neat. Maybe there is a point to lottery tickets. 21593. Shannon - 1/12/2002 1:13:36 AM Yes, I did see it. Drove by a Wendy's tonight and saw they had a Dave message on their sign too. 21594. jexster - 1/12/2002 3:34:08 AM Houston TX is a model corporate elite city...or more accurately a cow town with bright shiny erl bidniss headquarters... 21595. jexster - 1/12/2002 3:34:45 AM Enron (news/quote)'s collapse leaves Marc Shapiro of J. P. Morgan Chase (news/quote) in a difficult position. 21596. rasheed - 1/12/2002 3:59:34 AM Dave Thomas was such a "nice man." He praised and supported Pat Robertson's religious bigotry and pulled Wendy's ads from "Ellen" when she came out of the closet. 21597. bubbaette - 1/12/2002 9:33:25 AM I worked at a Wendy's for a while when I was in college. When I worked, I had to be there at a specific time, but they made me wait around to punch the clock until the rush began. After the rush I had to clock out again, depsite my listed hours. On several occassions I worked less than an hour and a half of my posted four hour shift. I quit after two weeks and after all was said and done, probably made less than $1 an hour because I had to pay for the fucking uniform. 21598. jexster - 1/12/2002 12:48:42 PM You can be a nice man and hate fags. 21599. Cellar Door - 1/14/2002 10:08:17 AM Here's a story sure to warm Bill Bennett's heart. 21600. robertjayb - 1/15/2002 12:13:02 PM License, registration, and financial statement, please... 21601. robertjayb - 1/15/2002 3:05:11 PM Two 16-year-olds shot at Martin Luther King high school in NYC, says CNN. 21602. judithathome - 1/15/2002 3:28:29 PM One kid was shot in the back and it pierced his lung; the other was shot in the butt...both are listed in serious condition. 21603. robertjayb - 1/15/2002 3:32:19 PM Well, after all, it's MLK's birthday. 21604. judithathome - 1/15/2002 3:33:47 PM Ironic that it happened at MLK High School, huh? 21605. Rama - 1/15/2002 8:11:29 PM Dave Thomas was such a "nice man." He praised and supported Pat Robertson's religious bigotry and pulled Wendy's ads from "Ellen" when she came out of the closet. 21606. CalGal - 1/15/2002 8:16:18 PM Judith, 21607. judithathome - 1/15/2002 11:16:12 PM Yes, I'm joking. Or ignorant. Or stupid. Or moronic. Take your pick. 21608. rubberducky - 1/16/2002 9:24:46 AM And Wendy's never pulled any ads from the show. 21609. judithathome - 1/16/2002 9:55:06 AM And he no longer ran Wendy's when the TV show Ellen was on. 21610. Rama - 1/16/2002 10:24:30 AM yeah, they did. do better research. 21611. Rama - 1/16/2002 10:27:44 AM But his influence over that company didn't end until his death last week. 21612. Rama - 1/16/2002 10:28:19 AM And his influence with the company continues. 21613. joezan - 1/16/2002 10:29:42 AM Message # 21600: 21614. Cellar Door - 1/16/2002 10:31:16 AM "And, BTW, Proctor and Gamble are not in league with the devil." 21615. judithathome - 1/16/2002 10:40:07 AM But you had to post something , didn't you. Why was that? 21616. rubberducky - 1/16/2002 11:02:36 AM 21617. robertjayb - 1/16/2002 2:10:24 PM Phoney Pflamingo Pflap... 21618. CalGal - 1/16/2002 2:37:47 PM That bit about the ticket is disgusting. 21619. judithathome - 1/16/2002 3:05:54 PM Fine...whatever you say. 21620. robertjayb - 1/16/2002 5:15:20 PM Law student shoots profs... 21621. CalGal - 1/16/2002 5:40:48 PM I just read that. How awful. 21622. Rama - 1/16/2002 8:04:40 PM Please to be learning to be reading the English for your postings 21623. Rama - 1/16/2002 8:06:43 PM Because last I heard, and until anyone tells me differently, this is an open forum and I am entitled to post where I wish on it. If you don't 21624. arkymalarky - 1/16/2002 9:30:15 PM How Ironic 21625. Absensia - 1/16/2002 9:58:55 PM Rama, 21626. arkymalarky - 1/16/2002 10:04:44 PM I began that weeks ago when I called him on something and he went into the pretend-it-doesn't-exist mode. That happens to me a lot. 21627. Absensia - 1/16/2002 11:50:54 PM But, no one ignores you, Arky, except for one or two twits. 21628. Cellar Door - 1/17/2002 12:13:07 AM 21629. CalGal - 1/17/2002 12:19:58 AM Arky, 21630. wonkers2 - 1/17/2002 12:49:42 AM Absensia, Right, best to ignore the ignorant little ferret. 21631. Absensia - 1/17/2002 12:56:23 AM Thanks Wonks...that's my plan...and that's what I've been doing. Thanks 21632. rubberducky - 1/17/2002 10:34:53 AM Re: Message # 21622, Rama. 21633. Cellar Door - 1/17/2002 12:39:53 PM 21634. robertjayb - 1/17/2002 5:06:32 PM Ha, ha. Floridians are so amusing... 21635. judithathome - 1/17/2002 5:27:37 PM Those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to screw it up... 21637. Rama - 1/17/2002 8:38:59 PM thus, they pulled ads in any understanding of the term. so, yes, i 21638. rubberducky - 1/18/2002 8:52:42 AM um, okay. 21639. stostosto - 1/18/2002 8:59:58 AM From Cellar's link: 21640. Rama - 1/18/2002 9:57:45 AM um, okay. 21641. rubberducky - 1/18/2002 11:02:42 AM i'm truly sorry to see you're unable to comprehend that refusing to air commercials during a show which previously was a host to those commercials is, in fact, 'pulling' said ads. 21642. robertjayb - 1/18/2002 3:20:05 PM Let my piggies go! 21643. robertjayb - 1/18/2002 3:27:08 PM And the surprise is...? 21644. Rama - 1/18/2002 5:51:01 PM i'm truly sorry to see you're unable to comprehend that refusing to air commercials during a show which previously was a host to those commercials is, in fact, 'pulling' said ads. 21645. Cellar Door - 1/18/2002 8:05:35 PM 21646. robertjayb - 1/22/2002 4:36:30 PM Don't call me...I'll call you...(WashPost) 21647. robertjayb - 1/22/2002 4:38:38 PM My Fellow Texians can avoid some aggravation via: texasnocall.com. 21648. judithathome - 1/22/2002 4:48:06 PM I signed up for both, Robert, because when this stuff hits, those electric companies are going to be aggressive as hell... 21649. joezan - 1/22/2002 11:09:55 PM Is he at it again? 21650. thoughtful - 1/24/2002 11:55:56 AM These people are scummy. On the TODAY show this a.m. they interviewed the partner of the woman in San Fran who was mauled to death by neighbors dogs. Granted these people have never once told the partner they were sorry. OK, so they're rude or maybe don't want to do anything that might worsen their responsibility in the case or some such thing. But other stuff is coming out, like the fact that the woman dog owner had EMT training. She shooed the dog back into the apartment after the mauling, reached down to feel for a pulse in the mauled woman, then proceeded to rummage around the hallway for her apartment keys which she had dropped in the commotion! Mind you this victim, who is lying there, clothes torn off, bleeding, dying as a result of an attack by her dog is treated as less important than finding her apartment keys? From someone with EMT experience? How callous can you be? 21651. judithathome - 1/24/2002 12:00:24 PM On Law & Order last night, they were sent to prison. 21652. OhioSTOPAS - 1/24/2002 3:59:54 PM Couldn't happen to a nicer, or more deserving, guy: 21653. Cellar Door - 1/24/2002 4:24:30 PM I can't help but recall how quickly Hume got back on the air after his son topped himself over Bill Paxton. 21654. OhioSTOPAS - 1/24/2002 4:58:54 PM The star of "Twister" is gay? 21655. joezan - 1/24/2002 7:55:11 PM Well, Hume's not realizing it isn't hunting season may very well be just because he's not a hunter. 21656. OhioSTOPAS - 1/24/2002 10:12:53 PM " . . . it is well within the realm of believability that PETA would go around outfitting deer in blaze orange. . . " 21657. joezan - 1/24/2002 10:44:28 PM And he'd be welcome to it. 21658. bubbaette - 1/25/2002 10:14:37 AM I'm curious as to how one "outfits" a deer in blaze orange. There's no shortage of deer in my state and they're out in full-force on the backroads at night. But all the same, other than by collision, I've never known anyone get close enough to one to spray paint, much less dress up in a vest. 21659. judithathome - 1/25/2002 10:19:12 AM These are fashion conscious deer...thrilled to be outfitted by LL Bean. They line up near the catwalk and work it. 21660. theDiva - 1/25/2002 10:19:23 AM Bubb 21661. Cellar Door - 1/25/2002 11:36:34 AM No, No OHIO -- Molinari's hubby. 21662. OhioSTOPAS - 1/25/2002 1:24:15 PM I knew that - just giving you a hard time because the ex-Congressman is Bill PAXON, not Paxton. 21663. robertjayb - 1/25/2002 2:52:18 PM Please remain seated until the aircraft has come to a complete stop... 21664. theDiva - 1/25/2002 2:54:30 PM That's what she gets for sitting down on a public toilet. Didn't her momma teach her to hover?! 21665. robertjayb - 1/25/2002 3:00:18 PM At least he was faithful... 21666. arkymalarky - 1/25/2002 10:31:59 PM How prevalent is gouging eyeballs out and squeezing crotches until they burst? 21667. robertjayb - 1/25/2002 11:10:50 PM Japanese ladies may be a tad less aggressive than you gals from the ArkLaTex. 21668. arkymalarky - 1/25/2002 11:36:26 PM Hahaha. How did you know my area? It's a wicked combination--the best of all three states rolled into one very potent region. 21669. robertjayb - 1/26/2002 1:35:55 PM Meanwhile, in the great white north: 21670. Wombat - 1/26/2002 4:23:50 PM Sounds like stiletto heels would be a useful accessory in Japanese subway and commuter trains. 21671. robertjayb - 1/29/2002 12:28:14 AM Milwaukee Woman Sees Jesus In A Tree... 21672. rubberducky - 1/30/2002 9:48:02 AM Salon with you on the crapper? 21673. Cellar Door - 1/30/2002 9:56:38 AM What Makes Sully Run: Check out these links! 21674. Shannon - 1/30/2002 10:28:52 AM 21675. judithathome - 1/30/2002 10:36:23 AM I saw this on the news yesterday...to say the movie Deliverance came to mind is understatement. 21676. bubbaette - 1/30/2002 12:00:02 PM That should make a good "Daily Show" segment. 21677. OhioSTOPAS - 1/30/2002 1:21:33 PM Only one town? Why isn't John Ashcroft casting out Satan from the whole country? 21678. rubberducky - 1/30/2002 1:25:36 PM Satan is all Clinton's fault too, ya know. 21679. bubbaette - 1/30/2002 1:27:10 PM I have to wonder why nobody bothered to inteview Satan to get his point of view. Ducky's right -- it must be a left-wing media ploy. 21680. rubberducky - 1/30/2002 1:28:34 PM commie-pinkos keeping a good demon down! 21681. OhioSTOPAS - 1/30/2002 1:30:44 PM The ultimate proof of liberal bias. 21682. rubberducky - 1/31/2002 10:01:00 AM 21683. greystoke - 2/1/2002 11:55:56 AM Internet freedom fighters plead guilty. 21684. judithathome - 2/1/2002 12:01:32 PM Hey, Greystoke...thanks for stopping by. What have you been up to? 21685. greystoke - 2/1/2002 12:02:02 PM Bush Administration reassigns BLM manager. 21686. greystoke - 2/1/2002 12:06:27 PM judith 21687. judithathome - 2/1/2002 12:45:27 PM Not much...we're having a Texas Moteio in a couple of weeks, with the ArkyMalarkys in attendence and maybe Seadate, ChristiPeters, Jenerator, Erin, Marshame, and Frankster...honorary Texan that he is! And if Robert would drive up, we'd be most pleased. 21688. greystoke - 2/1/2002 12:59:26 PM judith 21689. judithathome - 2/1/2002 1:04:19 PM Wow, you mean you have to pay to throw up in a bag? Come see me and I'll drive you around town fast enough to make you do that for free! 21690. greystoke - 2/1/2002 1:05:33 PM judith 21691. thoughtful - 2/1/2002 1:11:04 PM greystoke, become one with the plane and you won't get sick. 21692. greystoke - 2/1/2002 1:14:07 PM thoughtful, 21693. thoughtful - 2/1/2002 1:20:38 PM I'm serious. Hubby and I didn't get sick on the week-long sail boat ride whereas a lot of other passengers did...lots of dramamine going around. All you do is become one with the ship...don't use your body to hold your head up vertically regardless of which way the ship is moving....rather lean up against a wall on the ship so you move with the ship...on the plane, lean back in the seat and move with the seat. When you hold your head vertical, the fluid in your ear sloshes moving with the ship and makes you sick. Moving your head with the ship keeps your head and fluid together so it doesn't slosh and you don't get sick. 21694. thoughtful - 2/1/2002 1:21:25 PM something like that anyway 21695. greystoke - 2/1/2002 1:27:00 PM thoughtful 21696. thoughtful - 2/1/2002 1:48:40 PM was that really necessary? 21697. greystoke - 2/1/2002 1:54:17 PM Sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. 21698. robertjayb - 2/1/2002 3:22:04 PM Goodtaseeya, greystoke. Teaching the kid to drive and flying lessons, too. You are a brave man. I regard the $250 paid to a driving school as a bargain and they turned out a fine driver. Better than me, for sure. 21699. arkymalarky - 2/1/2002 8:21:37 PM Small town disadvantages--my principal was Mose's driving instructor and he wasn't very strict with her, and Bob and I never could get our Good Cop/Bad Cop down very well. 21700. wonkers2 - 2/1/2002 9:56:02 PM Cap'n Dirty sez "It's called rockin' the boat." 21701. robertjayb - 2/4/2002 4:55:09 PM Need a new cell phone? Only $24K! 21702. robertjayb - 2/4/2002 5:59:21 PM Poor Aggies---Texas A&M Won't Have 2002 Bonfire! 21703. judithathome - 2/4/2002 6:03:22 PM They ought to assign the whole idea to the ash heap, so to speak... 21704. joezan - 2/4/2002 8:08:12 PM I just read a story in the police blotter of the local paper (the story is not on-line yet, or I'd link it), about a car burglary where 221 CDs were taken from a 1988 Ford Crown Victoria. 21705. judithathome - 2/4/2002 8:09:30 PM Someone who should've locked their car... 21706. Thoughtful - 2/4/2002 8:59:21 PM reminds me of the old story about the city slicker who moved to new hampshire and wanted to know how safe it was. Neighbor said, no need to lock your car unless its summer. Slicker said, "Oh, because of all the tourists around?" Neighbor responded, "No. If you leave your door unlocked, someone is bound to fill your back seat with zucchini!" 21707. greystoke - 2/6/2002 11:57:20 AM Another man cleared by DNA testing. 21708. greystoke - 2/6/2002 12:05:46 PM State child protection agency excesses. 21709. robertjayb - 2/7/2002 12:16:05 PM Basic air defense: Whack! 21710. robertjayb - 2/7/2002 7:26:36 PM Bunnies burn...(Fondue, anyone?) 21711. greystoke - 2/8/2002 11:56:43 AM Some female airline passengers are soft on terrorism. 21712. OhioSTOPAS - 2/8/2002 12:08:49 PM Well, I say if a man can't grope a stewardess, the terrorists win. 21713. robertjayb - 2/8/2002 2:10:02 PM I'm off Canadian bacon for a while... 21714. joezan - 2/9/2002 9:05:33 AM Please, Elton...no songs. 21715. joezan - 2/9/2002 9:50:56 PM Men redundant? Now we don't need women either. 21716. Cellar Door - 2/9/2002 10:08:10 PM In others words, men will become women. 21717. Cellar Door - 2/10/2002 1:42:52 AM Throw the book at the skanky drug ho! 21718. robertjayb - 2/11/2002 12:41:08 AM Butterflies are not free---but fun... 21719. ElliottRW - 2/11/2002 9:44:18 AM Watch Out For Easy Russians (link will expire) Russia's AIDS epidemic is already far worse than in Western Europe and North America, where the disease struck high risk populations of drug users and homosexuals but stopped before becoming widespread among the rest of the public. But Pokrovsky points to sky-high rates of other sexually transmitted diseases, which are signs of widespread risky sex and increase the chance of transmitting AIDS. Russia has syphilis rates hundreds of times higher than in the West. 21720. CalGal - 2/11/2002 9:56:02 AM 21721. theDiva - 2/11/2002 10:28:14 AM I read about this one wedding where they bought all these butterflies to be released for the happy couple at the appropriate moment....problem was, it got reeeallllly hot in the church and when the boxes were opened, all these dead butterflies dropped all over the bride and groom. Yuck. 21722. rubberducky - 2/11/2002 11:12:17 AM some would say that is an apt analogy... 21723. theDiva - 2/11/2002 11:52:32 AM ...especially for people who approach their wedding day as though it were a frickin Broadway production. Geesh. 21724. robertjayb - 2/11/2002 12:34:36 PM Nightmares are made of this: 21725. ElliottRW - 2/11/2002 2:11:41 PM SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Alright everybody, eat your vegetables. Now eat ONLY vegetables. Now, eat ONLY vegetables that have just been picked -- and then make sure you chew each mouthful at least 50 times. While orthorexia has not been officially recognized in treatment books on mental illness, the term has sparked Internet discussion threads and support groups, and been hailed by no less an authority than the Journal of the American Medical Association. ``I suspect that orthorexia is a far more common eating disorder than anorexia nervosa and bulimia,'' Dr. Adriane Fugh-Berman wrote in a JAMA review of Bratman's book, adding that he ``makes an excellent case for the term orthorexia nervosa to enter the medical lexicon.'' Holly Hoff, a program director at the National Eating Disorders Association, said that while orthorexia had not yet officially joined the ranks of established eating disorders, it was increasingly an area of concern. ``The key issue in any eating disorder is when a person's attitude toward food, weight or exercise is significant enough to change how they live their lives,'' Hoff said. ``If they are thinking about it for the majority of the day, then that is something to be concerned about.'' 21726. CalGal - 2/11/2002 2:14:12 PM What the hell? That's just OCD. 21727. ElliottRW - 2/11/2002 2:48:31 PM Re: just OCD Let's see. Thinking about food all day long--yes, that's an obsession. What I don't see is the compulsion here. Some of the behaviors described in the article (chewing 50 times) could be compulsions, but is it compulsive to refuse to do something (e.g. eating food X)? 21728. judithathome - 2/11/2002 3:10:10 PM I think it's more than OCD...like the article said, there are components of OCD in this but it is definitely an eating disorder. 21729. Cellar Door - 2/11/2002 6:46:29 PM 21730. Cygnus X-1 - 2/11/2002 8:34:09 PM Kinsley Resigns As Editor of Slate 21731. Cygnus X-1 - 2/11/2002 8:37:21 PM Hey Cellar, what article are you linking? That just takes me to a table of contents. I want to read that article, because I sure as hell don't want my tax dollars going to protect queers. We have to do everything we can to keep their lifespan 20% less than heterosexual lifespans. 21732. Cellar Door - 2/11/2002 8:40:10 PM Oh so I'm not dying fast enough for you? Maybe I should get your pal Sully to fuck me so I can die of AIDS! 21733. Cygnus X-1 - 2/11/2002 9:43:14 PM No, I hope [your] wife feeds [you] lots of eggs and butter and [you die] early like many black men do, of heart disease. 21734. OhioSTOPAS - 2/11/2002 10:11:03 PM Just when you think the art of urbane conversation is a thing of the past, along comes Cygnus. 21735. CalGal - 2/11/2002 10:22:11 PM Elliot, 21736. arkymalarky - 2/11/2002 10:49:53 PM No it isn't. An eating disorder is a behavior. Baldness that isn't self-inflicted isn't. In fact, anorexics often show both obsession and compulsion, ritualizing their eating patterns, but anorexia is still an eating disorder. 21737. judithathome - 2/12/2002 8:10:06 AM But while obsessive compulsion plays a role in many orthorexia cases, it is not the only warning sign. Simple food allergies can lead some people to orthorexia as they cut out food group after food group in an effort to stay healthy, while self-esteem and ``dietary identity'' can also play a role. 21738. ElliottRW - 2/12/2002 10:23:09 AM ...like not stepping on cracks... Yes, I can see how that can be a compulsion. I am interested in getting a clearer idea here of what OCD is not. I think we agree on the obsession part, but I was under the impression that compulsions were accompanied by irrational fear. I don't see any fear in the typical "fruitarian;" what I do see is a bunch of holier-than-thous on a (self-destructutive) righteous high. 21739. Jonesatlaw - 2/12/2002 12:09:51 PM OCD vs. Orthorexia- 21740. CalGal - 2/12/2002 12:26:22 PM In fact, anorexics often show both obsession and compulsion, ritualizing their eating patterns, but anorexia is still an eating disorder. 21741. CalGal - 2/12/2002 12:36:08 PM Jones, 21742. CalGal - 2/12/2002 12:40:45 PM I think we agree on the obsession part, but I was under the impression that compulsions were accompanied by irrational fear. 21743. Jonesatlaw - 2/12/2002 2:24:37 PM Cal- I agree that OCD in the classic sense does not always expand into other areas of life. It seems sometimes to be limited in expression but it is hard to tell in serious cases whether the limitations the rituals place on the persons life are the cause of the limitation or the severity of the underlying pathology is the cause of the limitation. But that's quibbling. Your larger point I agree with- that orthorexia is most likely a variant or spot in an array of how OCD expresses itself in human behavior. 21744. CalGal - 2/12/2002 2:30:37 PM I think that obsessive compulsion and narcissism (in the psychological sense) are, separately, the root cause of a whole lot of disorders, and that these disorders should be re-evaluated in that light. 21745. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 2:38:27 PM I'm not sure why any eating disorder is separated from OCD except for the fact that it's food oriented. 21746. Jonesatlaw - 2/12/2002 2:49:49 PM quick facts on OCD- NIMH 21747. Jonesatlaw - 2/12/2002 3:00:33 PM Here is some information that goes somewhat against the grain of what CalGal and I are saying, though not directly. It could be that essentially similar behavior- the obsessive and compulsive aspects of eating disorders, compared to classic OCD, are produced by other psychopharmacological factors, either alone or over a larger predisposition to OCD type disorders. 21748. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 3:09:03 PM I realize I should've finished out my previous post by saying: Either they're all eating disorders or none of them are. 21749. ElliottRW - 2/12/2002 3:10:52 PM Thanks for the NIMH links, Jones. Whether or not orthorexia is OCD, I found the original article interesting not so much because it defined a new disorder, but because rather it pointed out that rigorous unquestioning adherence to [weird diets] resembles a disorder. A logical extension to that train of thought is that rigorous unquestioning adherence to [religion, moral principles, political ideology, cultural norms] resembles a disorder. 21750. Jonesatlaw - 2/12/2002 3:17:52 PM ElliotRw- there are parallels in other disorders as well. Paranoid schizophrenics often have religious themes in their delusions / halluciantions or are labeled as expressing "excessive religiosity." 21751. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 4:01:19 PM Elliot, 21752. theDiva - 2/12/2002 4:12:01 PM (they've been to the mote?) 21753. ElliottRW - 2/12/2002 4:17:01 PM Note: Do not include a symptom if it is a culturally sanctioned response pattern. What a gem. 21754. CalGal - 2/12/2002 4:17:46 PM but because rather it pointed out that rigorous unquestioning adherence to [weird diets] resembles a disorder. 21755. CalGal - 2/12/2002 4:19:11 PM The one thing that cracks me up about the DSM definition for OCD is that the person must regard the behavior as a problem. 21756. Cellar Door - 2/12/2002 4:25:37 PM I try to have sex at least 90 times a day! 21757. Jonesatlaw - 2/12/2002 4:30:56 PM Would washing 90 times be OCD if it only followed sex? 21758. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 5:03:07 PM the difference between orthorexia and, say, bulimia is that a bulimic can postpone or delay their behavior. It isn't a compulsion. Ditto anorexia 21759. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 5:05:45 PM Hmm...going by the "person must recognize that behavior is a problem" requirement, then A & B fall into OCD but Orthorexia doesn't because the people who suffer from it don't realize there's anything wrong. 21760. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 5:07:07 PM BTW, anybody else see Notting Hill? Until this discussion I was sure that they had just made up the nutty Frutarian woman that Hugh Grant's friends tried to set him up with. When I read above that these people are for real I nearly fell out of my chair. 21761. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 5:07:38 PM Dang. 21762. CalGal - 2/12/2002 5:22:35 PM MsNo, 21763. CalGal - 2/12/2002 5:25:23 PM Okay, I just read the article to be sure I hadn't missed anything--I thought Elliot had covered all the important aspects (and he had). Where did the religious angle come from? 21764. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 5:53:31 PM Cal, 21765. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 6:09:47 PM Cal, 21766. CalGal - 2/12/2002 6:11:23 PM upon closer reading I see that the focus seems to be on the repetitive nature and the ritualistic/talismanic quality of such behaviors rather than on the irresistibility of them. 21767. CalGal - 2/12/2002 6:14:06 PM I didn't see that as religious. Nor did I pick up that he was linking them all together until the second time I read the piece. My first focus was on Elliot's summary and the guy's description of his own behavior as the "diagnosis". 21768. Ms. No - 2/12/2002 7:04:05 PM It depends on whether or not they absolutely must chew the food fifty times, which seemed to be the case for the one guy--or are just doing it because it's in their religion. 21769. CalGal - 2/12/2002 7:10:34 PM but a whole bunch of people following the same dictated dietary plan is a cult. 21770. Absensia - 2/12/2002 10:58:01 PM Alert! Alert! Now I understand why I can't do hyperlinks! 21771. robertjayb - 2/12/2002 11:05:56 PM Thomas Jefferson weeps... 21772. theDiva - 2/13/2002 9:32:45 AM the Commonwealth is teetering on the brink of losing its long-held and extremely valuable AAA bond rating, and these jerks are sloganeering. Priceless. 21773. bubbaette - 2/13/2002 9:46:55 AM Symbolism trumps substance when it comes to legislative accomplishments. It's absurd the amount of time Rerras' stupid bill has taken up in debate in committee and on the floor. 21774. theDiva - 2/13/2002 9:53:05 AM I could puke. 21775. bubbaette - 2/13/2002 10:04:01 AM I'd vote for that. Stupid goddamn car tax bullshit. I got a $30 reduction in my car tax for my 8 year old vehicle, but I get no salary increase for the next four years and the tax appraisal on our house just went up by $10,000. Thanks a bunch, Gilmore, you fucking moron. 21776. theDiva - 2/13/2002 10:09:13 AM Now there's a slogan which ought to be posted in civil servant lunchrooms all over the Commonwealth. 21777. judithathome - 2/13/2002 10:14:39 AM ...and on bumperstickers for your cars; use the money you save on the car tax to get 'em printed up! 21778. Rama - 2/13/2002 10:20:31 AM Thomas Jefferson weeps... 21779. theDiva - 2/13/2002 10:22:22 AM now there are a couple of very interesting statements. 21780. theDiva - 2/13/2002 10:31:55 AM okay, I'll bite. How many bureaucrats are living off the good people of the Old Dominion, and how huge is the portion? 21781. bubbaette - 2/13/2002 10:35:11 AM Dadblamed public employees -- the downfall of the nation. Until you want your roads built, or disaster response, or your trash picked up, or public health monitoring of epidemics, or something done about the stray dog running in your neighborhood, or school to provide a basic education, or the police to respond when you call, or the court system to adjudicate criminal and civil violation or enforce contracts, or clean water to drink, or breathable air, or children protected from being beaten to death or starved by their parents, or your doctors held to certification standards, or a national defense.... etc. And then "civil servants" should be willing to do the job on a volunteer basis, I suppose. Whatta maroon. 21782. mgleason - 2/13/2002 10:37:29 AM Bub, I prefer Lynnie's term: civil serpent, as Uncle Eddie's victims think of him. 21783. theDiva - 2/13/2002 10:40:24 AM Come on, Bubb. Get serious here. Government ought to be lean and mean, right? 21784. bubbaette - 2/13/2002 10:41:02 AM As far as terming Rama's comments "very interesting", I think that's an overstatement. "Very predictable", maybe. "Very kneejerk", certainly. "Very intersesting", hardly. 21785. theDiva - 2/13/2002 10:43:41 AM I want to hear about the huge portions, and how the bureaucrats are living off the good people. 21786. bubbaette - 2/13/2002 10:49:36 AM Diva dear. 21787. theDiva - 2/13/2002 10:51:44 AM Dang. 21788. Wombat - 2/13/2002 10:55:24 AM I was under the impression that Jefferson decried a centralized Federal presence, not bureaucracies in general. His written thoughts on a state religion are very clear. 21789. theDiva - 2/13/2002 11:00:58 AM what's funny is that most folks talk about 'government bureacrats' and 'civil servants' as though we were some sort of monolithic entity, as opposed to being actual people - I mean, we pay taxes, too. We have jobs to do, too. 21790. Jonesatlaw - 2/13/2002 11:06:01 AM Rama- Here's a challenge for you, name a civil service position where the civil servant makes more than a person in the private sector with equivalent skills, education and responsibility. 21791. mgleason - 2/13/2002 11:09:38 AM London, here we come: Washington Plans Unprecedented Camera Network. 21792. theDiva - 2/13/2002 11:10:57 AM Jones 21793. Jonesatlaw - 2/13/2002 11:17:27 AM Part of the problem people have with government employees is that they have been fed so much anti-bureaucrat propaganda that they don't take advantage of the government services available. 21794. judithathome - 2/13/2002 11:24:16 AM "In the context of Sept. 11, we have no choice but to accept greater use of this technology," Stephen Gaffigan, the head of the police department project, told the Journal. 21795. theDiva - 2/13/2002 11:30:16 AM "Part of the problem people have with government employees is that they have been fed so much anti-bureaucrat propaganda ..." 21796. mgleason - 2/13/2002 11:41:07 AM It's a sticky wicket, J. I'm inclined to believe that this camera plan has been on the back burner for a long time, but that all involved knew it would be a tough sell in this country, especially after the reaction following Britain's implementation. I think that there will be a lot of similar things that will slide by, clinging to the coattails of Sept. 11th. 21797. Jonesatlaw - 2/13/2002 11:45:51 AM Being a die hard civil libertarian, you would think that I would oppose public surveilence cameras and the like. However, so long as the observations are limited to truly public places, I am not concerned. The fly in the ointment is ensuring that they are limited to public places. 21798. ElliottRW - 2/13/2002 11:58:17 AM Jones How would you feel about police surveillance if the police were required to disclose all information obtained without a warrant to the public? That is, every frame captured by a police camera was published real-time on the web, all cell phone tracking data published in a database, etc.. 21799. judithathome - 2/13/2002 12:06:59 PM Well, my husbands company recently became devotees of surveillance cameras in the truck yards where they park the huge 18 wheelers...disgruntled ex-employees (they think) broke in and drove rebar spikes into the tires of 4 trucks. At a replacement cost of almost $34,000 for the tires, the cost of cameras and increased security services looks like bargain. 21800. rubberducky - 2/13/2002 4:02:21 PM Re: Message # 21797, Jonesatlaw. 21801. ElliottRW - 2/13/2002 4:02:52 PM Wednesday February 13 10:23 AM ET Surgery Aids Severe Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A type of brain surgery may help some patients with severe obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) that fails to respond to medication or behavioral therapy, according to Boston researchers. OCD is a psychiatric illness marked by persistent, irrational thoughts and an uncontrollable urge to repeatedly perform certain acts, such as handwashing. Although most patients are treated with drugs and behavioral therapy, a ''small fraction'' with especially severe OCD find no relief from these tactics and could be candidates for brain surgery, according to Dr. Darin D. Dougherty and colleagues at Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard University. 21802. rubberducky - 2/13/2002 4:08:29 PM and you think you were overcharged before 21803. CalGal - 2/13/2002 4:35:34 PM I can't remember where I read just recently that the main use of the surveillance cameras in London was to check out women. The security watchers just zoom in on the pretty ones. 21804. arkymalarky - 2/13/2002 5:53:44 PM What's to prevent the camera on a pole to be trained in your window? Or the microphone from being aimed at your window, filtered and amplified to reveal your private conversations? 21805. arkymalarky - 2/13/2002 5:55:36 PM The county extension service is great, but I don't ever think to use it. The county agent used to live right up the road from us, too. 21806. Jonesatlaw - 2/13/2002 6:34:37 PM Most consequences of police misconduct in surviellance cases are conjunction with an attempted criminal prosecution- namely the exclusionary rule. 21807. Jonesatlaw - 2/13/2002 6:38:42 PM Many folks have bristled at the exclusionary rule because it does in certain circumstances allow the accused to avoid criminal liability for activity that known facts show they committed. However, since there is little or no interest in prosecution of police misconduct without it being driven by a huge public outcry over some particularly egregious and public incident, and little stomache by juries for civil awards against police officers in general, (save for those few exceptions noted above) how is misconduct to be deterred? 21808. arkymalarky - 2/13/2002 6:52:55 PM The way this case came up, btw, was that the man happened to notice the camera on the pole when he was looking out his daughter's upstairs window. 21809. joezan - 2/14/2002 7:17:51 AM 21810. joezan - 2/14/2002 7:34:53 AM WRT camera surveillance: 21811. Cellar Door - 2/14/2050 9:45:21 AM Cincinnati : Hotbed of Liberalism. 21812. rubberducky - 2/14/2050 9:53:52 AM that reads like an Onion article to me 21813. robertjayb - 2/14/2050 7:00:08 PM You go, girl! 21814. robertjayb - 2/14/2050 7:16:04 PM Cloning cats...another Aggie joke...Do we really need more of these disease-bearing marauders? 21815. judithathome - 2/14/2050 7:21:09 PM Oh, like there aren't enough unwanted cats overflowing the animal shelters? 21816. thoughtful - 2/15/2050 10:18:35 AM I'm not sure I believe that cloning story...the guy says he's from "Genetic Savings and Clone". Maybe it's too much enron, too much everything, but something about this cute little cloned kitten seems a bit too OTT. 21817. Toenails - 2/15/2050 10:36:45 AM Colin Powell recommends to a bunch of young people that, if they're gonna have sex, they maybe ought to use condoms. 21818. judithathome - 2/15/2050 10:52:01 AM They got to be a crowd because if they were just a couple, they'd be tempted to have sex. 21819. thoughtful - 2/15/2050 10:54:32 AM This is so bizarre. 21820. robertjayb - 2/15/2050 3:23:48 PM Betty Bowers offers a healing hand... 21821. robertjayb - 2/17/2050 9:29:15 PM Family hanky-panky earns spanky-spanky, big-time... 21822. robertjayb - 2/19/2050 1:00:25 PM My Way gets no respect in Manila... 21823. CalGal - 2/19/2002 1:52:10 PM That's really upsetting, about the Saudi sister-in-law, although I guess by their standards that's lenient. I swear, it wasn't like that when I was there. 21824. robertjayb - 2/19/2002 2:53:52 PM Here ya go: Atlanta Journal-Constitution... 21825. robertjayb - 2/21/2002 1:20:55 PM Disgruntled farm worker... 21826. thoughtful - 2/21/2002 1:26:58 PM Wow! That is a crime. Everyone knows bosses make far better mulligatawny than pepper soup. Sheesh! 21827. judithathome - 2/21/2002 3:44:12 PM We lost a helicopter full of people in the Philippines today...CNN. 21828. judithathome - 2/21/2002 3:46:29 PM US Army 'copter, 12 aboard. 21829. robertjayb - 2/21/2002 5:20:30 PM I'm a Somoas man, myself...$3.00 the box this year... 21830. arkymalarky - 2/21/2002 5:33:01 PM This nation is indeed going to hell in a handbasket if Thin Mints are beating out Samoas. What a weenie cookie. 21831. arkymalarky - 2/21/2002 5:33:53 PM My personal favorite is Tagalongs, though. 21832. Erin R. - 2/21/2002 5:34:56 PM I am pro-Samoas. 21833. Erin R. - 2/21/2002 5:35:52 PM I also like Trefoils and those peanut butter ones. But I actually like Nutter Butters better than the GS version. 21834. judithathome - 2/21/2002 5:55:40 PM I'll take all your Thin Mints, then...take 'em all. 21835. CalGal - 2/21/2002 6:00:17 PM WSJ reports that Daniel Pearl is dead 21836. robertjayb - 2/21/2002 9:45:56 PM Morse (John Thaw) is dead... 21837. concerned - 2/22/2002 3:30:22 AM Did you know that a dog can get tan lines on its tongue? I didn't. 21838. robertjayb - 2/22/2002 2:15:23 PM Fair Warning: Transcription of the police interview with Andrea Yates, the Houston mother who drowned her five children, Grim stuff 21839. theDiva - 2/22/2002 2:21:37 PM If I hear one more sobsister talk about 'poor Andrea', I swear..... 21840. Shannon - 2/22/2002 5:19:59 PM So you think this guy will get as much sympathy as Andrea? 21841. robertjayb - 2/22/2002 5:59:15 PM I heard the story yesterday but couldn't make the connection between a charcoal grill and a deliberate attempt to kill. 21842. Åse - 2/22/2002 6:10:35 PM Oh, man. That just hurts. 21843. Absensia - 2/22/2002 7:07:59 PM It is so bad, and scary. Lots of strange people, taking their feelings of depression, loss, or self hate out on kids. 21844. Shannon - 2/23/2002 4:00:42 AM On a lighter note: 21845. robertjayb - 2/23/2002 12:45:52 PM Great line from Shannon's link: 21846. LohrM - 2/23/2002 4:00:38 PM I will miss John Thaw. His Inspector Morse was a great performance. And he had Morse die off last year... So the role remains his. 21847. judithathome - 2/23/2002 4:05:41 PM I'm so glad they did that...I can't imagine anyone else in that role. 21848. concerned - 2/25/2002 4:54:04 PM A Nintendo Fatality 21849. judithathome - 2/25/2002 5:12:34 PM Zilch...she should've had him committed after the first seizures. Since he seemed unable to stop himself, that is. 21850. concerned - 2/25/2002 5:21:11 PM It does seem very strange that nothing was done to scale back his obsessive Nintendo playing by himself or others after the first episode or two. I recall reports, btw, of Japanese children who have suffered seizures from tv broadcasts of video games. 21851. judithathome - 2/25/2002 5:23:28 PM ...and of Pokemon! 21852. Shannon - 2/25/2002 5:25:45 PM The local story on the Nintendo lawsuit 21853. robertjayb - 2/25/2002 11:46:45 PM Geezers planning a rave or a romp? 21855. zojak quafeth - 2/26/2002 8:39:20 AM ...um, yes. Although I'm not sure why it's relevantto anything. Taking a look at all your other posts though, I see that the best tack is probably to simply ignore your nonsense. 21856. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 8:45:53 AM One thing I don't understand about this case of the mother drowning her 5 children. Husband is all very supportive saying she was mentally ill. Now it's come out that she was obsessing about killing her children for 3 months before she actually did it. The husband knew that she had mental problems...she was on drugs, she'd suffered post partum syptoms after the birth of each child. (I'm not even bringing up why they continued having children.) Why on earth is he not being held responsible? If his wife had a serious physical illness where she was unable to care for her children...say laid up in bed with a broken back ... wouldn't he be responsible for seeing the children had appropriate care? If he didn't, wouldn't he be charged with neglect? So why is it different where his wife is suffering from a serious mental disability? I don't get it. 21857. judithathome - 2/26/2002 12:46:17 PM Here is something posted on the Atlantic from the SF Gate... 21858. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 1:21:14 PM Sterilizing Andrea Yates 21859. judithathome - 2/26/2002 1:27:12 PM As always, Texas is seeking the death penalty. 21860. Cellar Door - 2/26/2002 1:31:32 PM It's her husband that needs to be sterilized! 21861. judithathome - 2/26/2002 1:32:02 PM About 4 kids ago... 21862. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 1:36:43 PM Well, certainly, we should ascribe fault to Texas, her husband, The Johnson administration, and ineffective anti-depressants first. 21863. judithathome - 2/26/2002 1:42:26 PM I don't think she will have any more....of course, those blasted conjugal visits don't bode well for my prediction. I guess that guy can't manage to keep it in his pants in his quest to populate the neighborhood. 21864. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 1:48:50 PM CD, 21865. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 1:50:57 PM Saddled with so many children, what's a woman to do? 21866. concerned - 2/26/2002 1:51:48 PM Re. 21860, 64 - 21867. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 1:53:02 PM Hell, Susan Smith, did the actual killing, but her husband done shoulda' known that knocking her up might cause a real crimp in her dating. 21868. judithathome - 2/26/2002 1:55:34 PM Seriously, JC, I suppose you think she should get a slap on the wrist and a trip to the funny farm? 21869. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 1:58:14 PM I realized that it was time to be punished... for not being a good mother. 21870. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:00:37 PM I told you what I think. 21871. concerned - 2/26/2002 2:04:53 PM From JC's link: 21872. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:05:04 PM I kept reliving this moment, and others like it, as I read with horrified fascination the story of Andrea Yates, a onetime nurse suffering from postpartum depression who apparently spent a recent morning drowning her five children in the bathtub. There is a part of my mind that imagines the baby, her starfish hands pink beneath the water, or the biggest boy fighting back, all wiry arms and legs, and then veers sharply away, aghast, appalled. 21873. robertjayb - 2/26/2002 2:05:54 PM Y'all will be pleased to know that Rusty has established the Yates Kids Home Page. 21874. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:06:27 PM Oh, Jimmy, you spilled the milk and opooped your pants again? 21875. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:08:01 PM robert 21876. concerned - 2/26/2002 2:09:17 PM Why all the effort to transfer blame to Rusty Yates by the resident Lefties? 21877. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:10:32 PM Rusty should have known about "the dark side of being a surrogate deity, omniscient and out of milk all at the same time", as Anna Quindlen might say. 21878. CalGal - 2/26/2002 2:24:09 PM Anna Quindlen's column was disgusting when she first wrote it; it hasn't improved with age. The notion that all moms are a few kids and a bad hair day away from a five-casket funeral is bizarre, to say the least. 21879. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:29:50 PM Imagine, if you will, if Andrea Yates had been Andrew Yates, and killed five women in sex murders. I, Andrew Quindlen, write for Newsweek the following: 21880. CalGal - 2/26/2002 2:31:02 PM Hell, keep her a chick and have her gun down the kids in a school yard and watch the sob stories fly. 21881. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:33:30 PM better, I'm sure that folks would be lining up to blame Andrew Yates' wife for holding out on him. 21882. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:35:05 PM No, even if she was a woman and killed kids in a schoolyard, the post-partum foolishness would have some cachet, and her husband would be implicated for a) having a gun in the house and b) buying a house too close to the schoolyard. 21883. CalGal - 2/26/2002 2:37:23 PM No, the postpartum foolishness would lose its cachet. 21884. judithathome - 2/26/2002 2:38:50 PM Why all the effort to transfer blame to Rusty Yates by the resident Lefties? 21885. judithathome - 2/26/2002 2:40:29 PM Scratch that "having"... 21886. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:41:35 PM Well, we're quibbling. 21887. CalGal - 2/26/2002 2:42:27 PM That is just utter fucking nonsense. "Oh, it's his fault for 'getting' her pregnant!" 21888. CalGal - 2/26/2002 2:44:14 PM My last post was to Judith, obviously. I completely agree with JC's 21886. As long as we've got the death penalty, it is a crime not to use it on someone like Yates. I think a longer and more painful death process is in order, but I'll settle for the spike, or whatever it is called these days. 21889. CalGal - 2/26/2002 2:45:47 PM And the pigs who yap about PPD will promptly keen in agony if anyone suggests that the first sign of PPD should result in sterilization for the mother. 21890. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:46:25 PM Clearly, Rusty did not choose the best mate. But it is rare that when a violent married criminal wreaks havoc, people immediately, almost reflexively, bring up the spouse. 21891. concerned - 2/26/2002 2:47:21 PM Re. Quindlen's infamous editorial which, if one accepts its intrinsic assumption, as CalGal put it, that: "...all moms are a few kids and a bad hair day away from a five-casket funeral...." makes me wonder why people who believe as Quindlen does would trust anyone else who is responsible for the care of others, such as workers at daycare centers. 21892. CalGal - 2/26/2002 2:50:24 PM Concerned--I think Quindlen's position demonstrates that children are much safer spending the majority of their time far away from Mommy. 21893. Wombat - 2/26/2002 2:58:15 PM JC 21894. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 2:59:55 PM Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. 21895. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:02:20 PM Ah, yes. All parents would have exactly the same opinion, right, Wombat? 21896. Wombat - 2/26/2002 3:05:12 PM Andrea managed to make do with one. Unless all you have is a shower stall... 21897. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:07:32 PM I just want to make sure I've walked a mile in her shoes before pontificating. 21898. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:10:07 PM But seriously, Wombat: are you implying that all parents would have exactly the same opinion? Or are you demanding experience before a poster is qualified to judge? 21899. judithathome - 2/26/2002 3:10:24 PM Who's holding him responsible for her monstrosities? He bears some responsibility for helping to bring another child into that hell hole. He bears responsiblity for deciding she could be alone with them after she TOLD him she'd thought of killing them... 21900. Wombat - 2/26/2002 3:13:38 PM Cal: 21901. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:14:19 PM He bears some responsibility for helping to bring another child into that hell hole. 21902. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:17:33 PM juditha 21903. judithathome - 2/26/2002 3:18:38 PM Negligence? Is that what you call it when a woman murders her children in cold blood? 21904. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:19:48 PM With you being the apparent exception, I would think that most people raising a family recognize that the dynamics of a family are greater than just a sum of its parts. 21905. judithathome - 2/26/2002 3:20:25 PM JC: 21906. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:21:05 PM don't change what I said, Cal 21907. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:22:17 PM Ah, yes. Only in America can a woman drown five children, admit to it, and thereafter, implicate her husband, her decisions as to children, her decisions as to medications, and home schooling. 21908. judithathome - 2/26/2002 3:22:38 PM I find it repulsive that you would consider women so completely incapable of making their own decisions. 21909. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:23:26 PM You are giving a lot of credit to a woman who couldn't even decide to wash her hair or not. 21910. Jonesatlaw - 2/26/2002 3:26:56 PM The rub with Andrea Yates is that she is both mentally ill, and criminally culpable. She is mentally ill, suffering from postpartum depression- or simply chronic depression with psychotic features. She knew what she was doing was wrong- but at the same time harbored some clear delusions about why she should do it, and why she was deserving of punishment. She wants the death penalty, and she thought it was appropriate for the kids too. She isn't going to meet the M'Naughten standard at all, and yet she's clearly out to lunch. I am uneasy with imposing the death penalty on someone who's thinking is that seriously flawed, even if I'm okay with criminal punishment. 21911. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 3:27:41 PM Jules Re: Message # 21867 21912. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:27:46 PM juditha 21913. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:29:06 PM Instead of trying to prevent her from being alone with the kids, he insures it. 21914. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 3:30:49 PM Let me make clear that I don't think this mitigates Andrea Yates' guilt in the least. She should go to jail for the rest of her life, but if we're going to pass out sterilization orders then Rusty is as deserving of the knife. 21915. Wombat - 2/26/2002 3:30:51 PM Cal: 21916. theDiva - 2/26/2002 3:31:39 PM Did she have PPD or PP psychosis? I do believe there is a difference. 21917. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:31:48 PM It has yet to be determined whether Yates is legally insane. 21918. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:32:17 PM Rusty Yates' responsibility: 21919. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:34:20 PM Chris 21920. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:35:57 PM No doubt, if your hubbie had wanted you to have another kid, or wanted you to stop taking antidepressants, or wanted you to stay at home and educate the children, you would have tossed him out of the house, accompanied by fragments of his personal possessions. 21921. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:36:44 PM Also, Wombat, you have yet to justify your assertion that All Parents Think As You. 21922. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:38:05 PM She should go to jail for the rest of her life, but if we're going to pass out sterilization orders then Rusty is as deserving of the knife. 21923. judithathome - 2/26/2002 3:42:58 PM I agree with Cal if she is saying that the husband has "nada" responsibility for the murders. 21924. Wombat - 2/26/2002 3:43:28 PM Since when am I holding her husband responsible for Andrea Yate's crime? I am responding to your unnuanced and simplistic view about the case. 21925. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:43:31 PM Under the prevailing theory, if a woman stays with a man she knows to be depressed, and if that man occasionally speaks of commiting harm to others (never actually being violent), and he kills the Domino's delivery man, she is culpable for having ordered a pizza. 21926. judithathome - 2/26/2002 3:44:30 PM So you are saying you want a world in which women are still owned by their hubbies, that they can't be held responsible for their own choices? 21927. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 3:44:48 PM I said it before and I'll say it again. (I swear this thread has gone into some kind of warp.) 21928. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:48:10 PM Wombat, 21929. judithathome - 2/26/2002 3:49:43 PM When are you going to back off your assertion that all parents hold the same opinion you do on his complicity? 21930. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:51:10 PM Funny. 21931. CalGal - 2/26/2002 3:52:05 PM Judith, you have enough trouble speaking for yourself. Don't get into other people's fights so I have to listen to you whine twice as much, okay? 21932. Cellar Door - 2/26/2002 3:52:14 PM Oh give 'em both the chair. Anything less enas you're bleeding heart Liberal! 21933. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:52:49 PM delete "occurs" 21934. Cellar Door - 2/26/2002 3:53:59 PM And his brother, and mother, and wife too! They should have known and they should have done something! 21935. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 3:56:23 PM JC, 21936. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 3:56:30 PM I suppose Nicole was in part responsible for the murder of Ron Goldman. 21937. Wombat - 2/26/2002 3:58:43 PM Since when am I holding her husband responsible for Andrea Yate's crime? I am responding to your unnuanced and simplistic view about the case. 21938. Jenerator - 2/26/2002 3:59:52 PM I am uneasy with imposing the death penalty on someone who's thinking is that seriously flawed, even if I'm okay with criminal punishment. 21939. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 4:01:35 PM CG Re: Message # 21922 21940. judithathome - 2/26/2002 4:05:25 PM Judith, you have enough trouble speaking for yourself. Don't get into other people's fights so I have to listen to you whine twice as much, okay? 21941. Jenerator - 2/26/2002 4:05:27 PM That Rusty "supports" his wife even now tells me that he's an enabler. 21942. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 4:07:21 PM JC Re: Message # 21925 21943. Jenerator - 2/26/2002 4:07:40 PM Judith, 21944. Wombat - 2/26/2002 4:07:52 PM Cal: 21945. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 4:11:40 PM Ms. No 21946. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 4:15:38 PM Luckily for Yates' Doctors, They're Off the Hoook in Texas 21947. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:17:03 PM It must be wonderful to live in a black and white world, where all people act on the basis of individual free will, and can be held accountable as such. 21948. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 4:17:13 PM "I suppose Nicole was in part responsible for the murder of Ron Goldman." 21949. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 4:18:24 PM Regardless, aren't we talking moral culpability when it comes to Rusty? 21950. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:20:01 PM I was suggesting that JC ought to walk a mile in our shoes before pontificating. 21951. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 4:20:14 PM Ron Goldman was an adult for whom Nicole had no guardianship responsibilities. Had he been a minor or had Nicole forced him into the house against his will, then I'd lay either negligence or accessory to murder charges at her feet. Assuming, of course, that she had lived through the assault herself. 21952. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:21:14 PM MsNo, 21953. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 4:24:40 PM Cal 21954. mgleason - 2/26/2002 4:25:48 PM I don't want to sterilize Rusty Yates; I want him in therapy. From what I've read, he sounds like an interesting specimen. 21955. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:27:22 PM I didn't read it, nor does it much matter. The fact that they had to go through an exercise to figure it out demonstrates that they are presumed to have far more responsibility than a hubby. Thus MsNo's basis for holding hubby more responsible, all things being equal, is incorrect. 21956. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:28:03 PM Maria--I am still utterly squicked out by his reaction last year. 21957. mgleason - 2/26/2002 4:29:26 PM Yeah, me too, CG. 21958. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 4:30:20 PM CG, 21959. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:31:27 PM JC--I just read the piece, and that wasn't the type of responsibility I was referring to. Although I thought mandated reporting had more teeth than that--is it only Texas? 21960. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 4:34:18 PM CalGal, 21961. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:36:56 PM At least if he'd pursued it and been denied I could credit him with making a real effort to ensure his childrens' safety. 21962. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:39:48 PM I'm talking about Rusty's responsibility as a parent and child care provider. 21963. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 4:40:29 PM Christin 21964. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 4:40:45 PM Jules, 21965. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 4:45:25 PM Wow. 21966. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 4:45:44 PM impicated=implicate 21967. CalGal - 2/26/2002 4:48:37 PM Actually, I believe that parents in abusive relationships can lose their children these days if they refuse to live apart. Mothers can also lose custody if they live with an abusive guy and the kids dad has a good lawyer, sometimes. 21968. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 4:54:55 PM CG & JC, 21969. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 4:58:12 PM JC, 21970. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 4:58:42 PM Is it beyond the pale to expect a man living with his wife who has obvious mental problems to pursue having a child care worker in to help care for the children while he's at work? Perhaps ask for help from someone in the family? One need not go so far as to expect divorce, custody, etc. but simply recognize that she wasn't well enough to care for her children at home by herself. Could they not at least have enrolled the children in school to allieviate her from some of that 24/7 responsibilty given her mental condition? 21971. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:03:52 PM MsNo, 21972. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:05:58 PM Perhaps ask for help from someone in the family? 21973. mgleason - 2/26/2002 5:08:49 PM That latest big article in one of the news weeklies talked about the last doctor who treated Andrea Yates, and his decision that she didn't need Haldol. Rusty Yates was concerned about this enough to pursue it, but must have felt reassured by the doctor's denial. 21974. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 5:09:00 PM CG, 21975. Al D - 2/26/2002 5:10:04 PM It must be wonderful to live in a black and white world, where all people act on the basis of individual free will, and can be held accountable as such. 21976. judithathome - 2/26/2002 5:13:21 PM Andrea had told Rusty she wanted to kill the children, that she'd thought about it before. This is according to things said in court and aired on the local news. 21977. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:16:27 PM It's pretty close to what I'm discussing. 21978. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:18:44 PM Andrea had told Rusty she wanted to kill the children, that she'd thought about it before. 21979. judithathome - 2/26/2002 5:20:27 PM Because she had TOLD him she had thought about it and wanted to do it? Is this just nothing to you? That he knew she'd had thoughts about it and wanted to do it??? 21980. judithathome - 2/26/2002 5:20:59 PM Well, Anna kids mercifully are still alive. 21981. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:21:21 PM BTW, if she did indeed tell Randy Yates seriously that she was planning on killing her kids, I would hold him responsible for not collecting them and leaving the state. But that would be about his only option, given that she was under a shrink's care. And it has nothing to do with the yappings of the stresses of homeschooling, or five children, or (sob) post partum depression. 21982. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:22:47 PM Well, Anna kids mercifully are still alive. 21983. judithathome - 2/26/2002 5:24:05 PM And it has nothing to do with the yappings of the stresses of homeschooling, or five children, or (sob) post partum depression. 21984. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:25:43 PM It has to do with whether Randy has any cupability or not which is what we were talking about...I thought. 21985. judithathome - 2/26/2002 5:26:07 PM And before Andrea Yates' kids were killed, what was the difference? 21986. judithathome - 2/26/2002 5:28:40 PM To be precise, I never said anything about home schooling. 21987. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:34:13 PM None...you brought up Anna Quidlin, not I. 21988. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 5:36:14 PM CG, 21989. Jonesatlaw - 2/26/2002 5:38:01 PM CalGal- 21990. judithathome - 2/26/2002 5:38:12 PM Cal, I was speaking of Andrea Yates telling her husband she was going to do it. In response to your claim that he had no way of knowing, no suspicions, no clue in the universe that she was going to do it. He did. IF you believe what the reporter and the news outlets here locally stated. 21991. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:39:58 PM As I've stated I don't think it's acceptable to leave your five minor children at home with a dead body all day. 21992. CalGal - 2/26/2002 5:42:33 PM He planned on homeschooling the kids. 21993. Shannon - 2/26/2002 5:58:17 PM >she drew the bath water ready to drown her children 2 years ago while he was home 21994. Jonesatlaw - 2/26/2002 6:00:52 PM JC- I haven't had time to review the medical reports which are available and so have a hard time answering your questions. There are several possibilities- 21995. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 6:33:23 PM But they aren't in any way analogous. 21996. Jonesatlaw - 2/26/2002 6:37:09 PM Cal- invert your post and apply the same reasoning. 21997. judithathome - 2/26/2002 6:39:15 PM Just saw a judge on loacal news who claims Yates' trial is a waste of money...she confessed; she did it; send her to jail. 21998. Jonesatlaw - 2/26/2002 6:40:16 PM Jenerator- 21999. Jonesatlaw - 2/26/2002 6:41:14 PM JAH- y'all do ELECT judges, don't you? 22000. judithathome - 2/26/2002 6:41:48 PM ha! 22001. CalGal - 2/26/2002 6:45:56 PM Hence I don't understand why you think it's such a great leap on my part to liken the Yates' case to it. 22002. Jonesatlaw - 2/26/2002 6:54:43 PM She has acted twice to kill herself. 22003. Ms. No - 2/26/2002 6:59:55 PM CG, 22004. mgleason - 2/26/2002 7:12:29 PM Jenerator's posts have left me thinking about something: in supporting his wife, Rusty Yates gives every indication of trying to live by his religious beliefs. Perhaps it's to salve his conscience, perhaps it's a calculated PR move, but if it isn't, why are so many professed Christians made so angry by a very Christian act? 22005. Jenerator - 2/26/2002 7:27:14 PM Who says it's a Christian act? 22006. concerned - 2/26/2002 7:28:29 PM Most of the other opinions I can take or leave regarding the Yates situation, but those people who have mentioned sterilizing the husband, please reassure me that you were joking. 22007. mgleason - 2/26/2002 7:35:22 PM Rusty Yates' actions are Christian; baying for Andrea Yates' blood is not, however satisfying. As I said, perhaps he's not sincere, but he does seem to be acting according to his beliefs, which is a difficult thing to do. 22008. Cellar Door - 2/26/2002 7:40:43 PM No it isn't. 22009. Jenerator - 2/26/2002 7:52:09 PM Maria, 22010. Jenerator - 2/26/2002 7:52:37 PM [Way to go Judith!] 22011. arkymalarky - 2/26/2002 8:06:57 PM But that would be about his only option, given that she was under a shrink's care. 22012. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 8:24:22 PM I'm not sure Rusty Yates' post-horror behavior can be fairly evaluated. The unspeakable tragedy, losing five children at the hands of their nurturer and the woman he loves, moves me to abstain from any judgment. 22013. Cellar Door - 2/26/2002 8:27:51 PM "The unspeakable tragedy, losing five children at the hands of their nurturer and the woman he loves, moves me to abstain from any judgment." 22014. Julius Caesar - 2/26/2002 8:36:44 PM Cellar 22015. arkymalarky - 2/26/2002 8:55:40 PM I also think women who let their husbands or boyfriends beat their children to death or men who do the same with wives/girlfriends share some responsibility. In this state they do legally. I don't know about elsewhere. 22016. Jenerator - 2/26/2002 9:00:57 PM I agree Arky! 22017. Åse - 2/26/2002 9:07:14 PM Thanks for linking that. 22018. Snowowl - 2/26/2002 9:12:31 PM Being psychotic does not necessarily mean being unable to control one's actions. In fact, the psychotic person may act very deliberately in the pursuit of whatever crazed ends they desire. 22019. arkymalarky - 2/26/2002 9:15:56 PM Of course you're right about psychosis, Snow. I haven't read anything to indicate she was hallucinating, but that may be. 22020. Shannon - 2/26/2002 9:20:12 PM Good link, JC. 22021. arkymalarky - 2/26/2002 9:22:41 PM May I add a compliment of JC's acquired technical skills. 22022. Snowowl - 2/26/2002 9:22:47 PM I only read it on this thread somewhere, Arky. It's a horrible, heartrending case and I don't have enough facts about it to make any informed comment really. 22023. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 9:25:43 PM The discussion here has led me to read the Time mag coverage of the family and according to this article: 22024. arkymalarky - 2/26/2002 9:26:41 PM I know exactly what you mean. My mother had bouts with psychosis and was hospitalized several times through my childhood and teen years. She's a good and conscientious mother and I love her dearly, and fortunately her illness never manifested itself in violence toward her family. Thankfully she has finally been accurately diagnosed and effectively treated and, though she still has very minor anxiety and some obsessiveness, is a happy and well-adjusted person now. Too bad it didn't come sooner. She has a lot of guilt about Bro and me. 22025. arkymalarky - 2/26/2002 9:27:13 PM Sorry. '24 was to Snow. 22026. arkymalarky - 2/26/2002 9:31:31 PM Thoughtful, 22027. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 9:32:20 PM In terms of equal partners vs. control-dependent relations, here's how Time describes the purchase of the new home. 22028. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 9:50:32 PM Much of this article comes from interviews with Rusty, so it largely reflects his POV. 22029. Shannon - 2/26/2002 9:52:37 PM I've always heard that it's quite hard to have someone committed. I'd certainly imagine it's hard to do with someone who has been deemed fit to leave the hospital in the past (nothing I've read has says she ever left a hosptial AMA) and who is being treated by a doctor who has no urge to re-hospitalize her (which seems to be the case). 22030. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 9:58:46 PM This article only hints at Rusty's role in this ... though he has vehemently denied playing a part in his wife's illness. His in-laws were suspicious of how he handled the situation. Notes by staff during an early breakdown include, "The patient's husband might be a little bit controlling." A roommate of Andrea's complained Rusty broke the rules frequently by walking into their room..."It was like nothing I'd ever seen before....To me he was sneaky." Others in group therapy complained that he dominated the discussions as he answered questions for his wife..."It was almost like her silence was a payback to the husband --like a control issue going on." 22031. Snowowl - 2/26/2002 9:59:18 PM I don't know what the laws regarding committal are in the US. Here they're reasonably straightforward. A person can be committed only if in their present situation they're a danger to themselves or to others. If Andrea was talking about killing her children she'd certainly be committed here. 22032. Snowowl - 2/26/2002 10:02:10 PM Arky, I'm sorry you had to go through that when you were younger, but very glad that your mother is doing so well now. Mental illness is still difficult to get to grips with, but they are making some progress in diagnosis and treatment and hopefully it won't be too long before people like your mother won't have to wait so long to have their conditions treated properly. 22033. Snowowl - 2/26/2002 10:02:45 PM Thoughtful, it sounds like a very interesting article. Thanks for posting the information. 22034. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 10:18:56 PM Others have mentioned the perspective of being in the same situation. My neighbor stays home to care for 5 children, feeling strongly enough that it would be anathema to have strangers raising them. Well adjusted, well educated, living comfortably in a middle class suburban home comments abound like, "I can't wait til September when all of them will finally be in school full time!" Not for a lack of loving them, but for a lack of simple peace and quiet and relief from the heavy responsibility of child rearing which truly gets magnified as the # of children goes up. Now place that burden on the shoulders of someone who suffers serious mental illness, who is coping with her father's alzheimers and death and who gets no relief from child rearing even for the short school day. According to a neighbor in the Houston chronicle, "'I don't think they ever left the kids with baby sitters,' Cole said. 'They were always with the kids.'" 22035. arkymalarky - 2/26/2002 10:19:37 PM Thanks Snow. I really had a very good childhood, and people with severe mental illness, if there are people around who can support and intervene when necessary, can be good parents. My grandparents and my father were very proactive and informed and stayed on top of the situation from the time she was a young teen. My grandparents talked extensively to my father before he married her and all of them knew and discussed things with her psychiatrist, who was competent and communicative with the family. My grandparents were very forward-thinking in that regard. 22036. Shannon - 2/26/2002 10:25:10 PM There's no difficulty about committing someone who has been hospitalised and discharged previously. That happens all the time with the mentally ill. The hospitals often operate a sort of revolving door system - patients are committed, treated until they're well enough to leave - they leave, go off their meds and they're back again before long. 22037. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 10:52:12 PM My take? He was the control. (Comments from neighbors like, when she was giving him a haircut, her hands trembled because he belittled her for every goof...that he was very controlling and manipulative.) Very religious and using his bible to keep his wife submissive and obedient. He was selfish. Used her to create the large family he wanted starting with pregnancy 3 mos into the marriage through 6 pregnancies in total (one miscarriage) in 8 years of marriage despite 4 hospitalizations for mental illness. I think the increasing isolation from family and friends and exclusionary focus on her children as well as a controlling husband pushed someone with a predisposition to mental illness into full blown mental illness. (She and her children had little exposure to any kind of life outside of the family and his control...bible studies were at home as he didn't like any church...children and social interaction via school didn't happen as they were schooled at home.) He was in denial about the serious nature of her illness making comments like, well I thought if the pregnancy made her ill again, we'd just get her more haldol and she'd get better. The fact that her first attempted suicide was at her mother's home...if that's not a cry of "get me out of here!" I don't know what is. I can't help but think on some level she needed to find a way out and get back at him by depriving him of his "life adventure" by eliminating his large family. 22038. thoughtful - 2/26/2002 10:52:26 PM She responsible? Yup, though after reading her history as presented, she probably should be locked up, not executed. But she knew that what she was doing was wrong and maintains the primary responsibility. He play a role in this terrible tragedy? Yup. His role was as a negligent father to his children and a contributor to her mental state. Other factors include the last psychiatrist, the medical insurance situation, his family, her family... Lots of mistakes made along the way, lots of opportunities for what ifs that might have avoided the final act. 22039. concerned - 2/27/2002 12:31:16 AM His role was as a negligent father to his children... 22040. concerned - 2/27/2002 12:37:07 AM Recognize that there is little evidence besides Rusty's say-so that he didn't know she was hearing voices (Get a knife! Get a knife!) and seeing bloody visions. 22041. thoughtful - 2/27/2002 8:58:59 AM concerned, the negligent father role comes from prior posts. In my view he can't claim that she was obviously insane and then not be held accountable for leaving his children in the care of an obviously insane woman and at the same time claim that he didn't know how insane she was given the evidence we have of her behavior and his interactions with her doctors. 22042. Shannon - 2/27/2002 10:59:36 AM Can we all agree that this guy's a bad father? 22043. judithathome - 2/27/2002 11:04:50 AM I like the way they published his address...I'll bet he gets mail. 22044. Jenerator - 2/27/2002 11:06:19 AM thoughtful, 22045. ycmeehan - 2/27/2002 11:12:39 AM On its way is my postcard which reads: Join Alcoholic Anonymous, you moron!. 22046. robertjayb - 2/27/2002 11:46:22 PM Not the best line of work for afternoon naps... 22047. judithathome - 2/28/2002 1:27:02 PM The Family That Loses It Together.... 22048. Cellar Door - 2/28/2002 3:41:43 PM 22049. Cellar Door - 3/1/2002 1:20:26 PM 22050. Cellar Door - 3/2/2002 1:13:10 AM There's a new way to spell "Nepotism" -- C-H-E-N-E-Y. 22051. robertjayb - 3/2/2002 3:13:29 PM Hey! Cut it out! Shooting insulators is a Texas sport... 22052. LohrM - 3/2/2002 4:12:44 PM Ah, well... I spent some time as a young teen using ceramic insulators as targets for my .22 rifle... 22053. jexster - 3/3/2002 2:33:55 PM Rosie 22054. robertjayb - 3/3/2002 2:47:44 PM Stupid...But his mother will be proud... 22055. robertjayb - 3/3/2002 2:56:16 PM She shoulda baked a cake... 22056. arkymalarky - 3/3/2002 3:20:55 PM Nothin' like a mama's love. 22058. jexster - 3/3/2002 8:31:05 PM SF Opens LGBT Community Center 22059. jexster - 3/3/2002 8:31:09 PM SF Opens LGBT Community Center 22060. robertjayb - 3/5/2002 8:05:22 PM And just what is a knocking shop? 22061. robertjayb - 3/5/2002 8:11:00 PM Oh. 22062. mgleason - 3/5/2002 8:11:04 PM Heh. The Brits are going back to their roots. Camp followers, anyone? 22063. Cellar Door - 3/6/2002 1:50:40 PM Rusty Yates: Family Man, God-Fearing Christian, Psychopath. 22064. robertjayb - 3/6/2002 2:52:25 PM Devastating article, Cellar Door. Thanks for linking it. 22065. robertjayb - 3/7/2002 5:28:46 PM Ohmigod! 22066. judithathome - 3/7/2002 5:30:08 PM I've been waiting for you to post that one....gruesome, huh? 22067. concerned - 3/7/2002 7:40:40 PM Here's a link with more details: 22068. concerned - 3/7/2002 7:43:27 PM Oops. Just read Mallard & friends are black & her victim is white. Damn Moral Equivalencers! 22069. bubbaette - 3/7/2002 7:58:46 PM I was just getting ready to paste that article. Put her under the jail. 22070. robertjayb - 3/8/2002 5:04:48 PM Well, they are French, you know... 22071. LohrM - 3/9/2002 3:31:29 PM I thought I'd heard that the bum-in-the-windshield woman was supposed to be tripping on Ecstasy on her way home. Did that ever prove true? 22072. judithathome - 3/9/2002 3:39:31 PM She was tripping on Ecstacy and after she pulled into the garage, she went inside the house and had sex with her boyfriend and then they both went out to the garage and talked to the guy. Then they went back in the house and after a few days had passed, decided to get help in disposing of the body. She has confessed to all of this... 22073. robertjayb - 3/9/2002 5:17:28 PM Technology at work... 22074. wonkers2 - 3/9/2002 7:42:03 PM They should add a breathalizer attachment. 22075. CalGal - 3/9/2002 7:49:17 PM I still think something is off with that woman. I think she did it on purpose. 22076. wonkers2 - 3/9/2002 7:55:48 PM Clearly not very bright as well as a bit "off." 22077. robertjayb - 3/11/2002 3:55:06 PM A clever idea, you know? 22078. concerned - 3/11/2002 4:00:13 PM "you know" is up there with "ummm", "errrr" and "uhhh" as verbal filler. 22079. judithathome - 3/11/2002 4:04:14 PM Don't forget "know what I'm sayin'". 22080. thoughtful - 3/11/2002 4:06:21 PM unfortunately, for some, the f word seems to become a filler as well. 22081. betty - 3/11/2002 4:08:23 PM you know, i think that guy's, you know, a little, you know, too pre, uhhh, you know, preoccupied with, like, you know, other people's, you know, business and should, uhh, you know, spend some of his money on me, you know. 22082. theDiva - 3/11/2002 4:13:47 PM like. 22083. betty - 3/11/2002 4:17:53 PM exactly! 22084. Absensia - 3/12/2002 5:54:59 PM the Yates jury has reache4d a verdict...in about 3 hours....they haven't announced what it is, y et, but CNN is filming the court room. 22085. Absensia - 3/12/2002 5:56:40 PM the Yates jury has reache4d a verdict...in about 3 hours....they haven't announced what it is, y et, but CNN is filming the court room. 22086. OhioSTOPAS - 3/12/2002 5:59:12 PM Does this mean it's a "not guilty" verdict? You'd think the jury would not reach a "guilty" verdict so fast, even given the disgusting horror of the crime. 22087. robertjayb - 3/12/2002 6:00:30 PM This surprises me. I thought they would stay out overnight just for form. 22088. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:00:57 PM I can assert right now that the Yates verdict includes the word 'guilty'. 22089. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:04:55 PM So how long before she can be released from institutionalization? 22090. judithathome - 3/12/2002 6:05:09 PM Andrea Yates...guilty of capital murder. Local FOX news... 22091. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:05:28 PM Yates; jury finds her guilty of capital murder in each case. 22092. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:05:33 PM Probably not for several years. 22093. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:06:08 PM Damn. I was almost sure she'd skate. 22094. Cellar Door - 3/12/2002 6:06:54 PM Wow,I'm truly surprised. 22095. wonkers2 - 3/12/2002 6:10:50 PM Me too! Wish I'd been on the jury. 22096. OhioSTOPAS - 3/12/2002 6:11:37 PM I'm surprised at the speed of the verdict, but not the verdict. It's the right verdict in my opinion. 22097. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:11:45 PM Re. 22095 - 22098. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:15:40 PM I feel sorry for Russell Yates, IAC. 22099. wonkers2 - 3/12/2002 6:17:54 PM Well, I was taught in ethics class that guilt logically implies that it was within the person's power to do otherwise. In short "ought implies can." That is, it makes no logical sense to say that someone ought to do something or ought not do something that was not in their power to do or resist doing. 22100. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:20:57 PM I was referring to 'hanging the jury' when I posed the question, btw. My meaning in apparent contradiction to the usual interpretation struck my fancy. 22101. wonkers2 - 3/12/2002 6:23:03 PM Ha! The answer is yes. 22102. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:23:43 PM Actually, I have refrained from reaching a personal judgment as to whether Andrea Yates insanity was such to have overcome her culpability in these murders. I figured that I would have needed to become a great deal more familiar with the sordid details that I cared to in order to reach an a priori personal judgment, but I respect the jury's decision. 22103. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:26:35 PM Tomorrow the jury beings their deliberation of whether she should be put to death or be sent to prision for life. 22104. wonkers2 - 3/12/2002 6:29:24 PM I wonder if there are any good grounds for appeal? 22105. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:33:45 PM Not guilty by insanity is very hard to get a jury to accept...especially if there is one scintilla of evidence to the contrary....you have to bring your client into the court room, frothing and growling like a beast, almost. 22106. CalGal - 3/12/2002 6:36:43 PM Hallelujah and Yeeeeeee-haw. 22107. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:37:00 PM They will appeal...one issue will be whether the decision on insanity was wrong....probably not...then questions about error in the trial...wrong jury instructions, wrong decision of the judge, baaad statements the judge made that were objected to. I didn't watch the entire trial....so I don't know if any of these shows up or now...but it doesn't seem so. Jones may have a different view since he does criminal defense. 22108. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:37:36 PM Thought that might be your response cal. : ) 22110. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:39:41 PM Re. 22107 - 22111. CalGal - 3/12/2002 6:40:25 PM Abs--well, I left off the exclamation points. 22112. concerned - 3/12/2002 6:40:29 PM What the hey happened to 22109? 22113. CalGal - 3/12/2002 6:42:42 PM I think the odds are good she'll be sentenced to death--a jury who rejects insanity is unlikely to give life for three murders if the death penalty is available. 22114. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:44:32 PM Yes...but two of the women on the jury had BAs in psychology! And, Cal, I'm not giving you a bad time. I tried not to watch any of this...but saw closing arguments today. The prosecution seems to have presented it's case fact by fact, with good witnesses and good expert witnesses 22115. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:45:23 PM The missing post was me...hit post without typing anything...sigh 22116. jexster - 3/12/2002 6:45:55 PM Cal- I don't follow that sort of shit but not according to one of the legal talking heads on CNN who says that the defense took control of the trial. 22117. CalGal - 3/12/2002 6:46:13 PM I didn't think you were giving me a bad time. 22118. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:47:19 PM I don't know....I sort of think they will give her life in prison....not sure why. 22119. CalGal - 3/12/2002 6:48:34 PM Jex, 22120. jexster - 3/12/2002 6:48:35 PM well so much for that talking head! 22121. Absensia - 3/12/2002 6:50:22 PM Not sure...one reporter mumbled something about one specializing specializing in psyciatry, so who knows. 22122. concerned - 3/12/2002 7:05:01 PM Well, if Andrea was gay or black, she would have had a better shot at skating. 22123. jexster - 3/12/2002 7:11:03 PM Oh..like I said..I don't like that sort of story... 22124. mgleason - 3/12/2002 7:17:10 PM The more I see of these sorts of high-profile cases, the more sense I find in the Canadian rules on pre-trial publicity. 22125. judithathome - 3/12/2002 7:18:33 PM I think she'll get life, myself. 22126. Absensia - 3/12/2002 7:34:14 PM They were just talking about how hard it is on the jury to go through this...and now the jury could decide to put her in prison for life (a high possible release date) get her psychiatric care, hopefully. Blah blah. 22127. Absensia - 3/12/2002 7:36:42 PM Maria, I am of two minds....I don't like all the publicity either, but it can serve to inform people how the crim justice system works...those who have never figured that out...and there are way too many or them. 22128. Cellar Door - 3/12/2002 7:39:30 PM "Well, if Andrea was gay or black, she would have had a better shot at skating." 22129. Absensia - 3/12/2002 7:51:23 PM CD, you are right on... : ) what more can I say? 22130. tonedef - 3/12/2002 11:48:42 PM Not only the Canadian rule on pre-trial publicity, but the Canadian insanity test as well - unable to know what they were doing was wrong, OR unable to appreciate the nature or quality of their acts - might have been more helpful to the defence. 22131. concerned - 3/13/2002 1:50:15 AM 22132. Absensia - 3/13/2002 1:51:36 AM It's late Concerned, dear. Go to bed and get some rest. You will feel better in the morning! 22133. concerned - 3/13/2002 1:52:01 AM Gay Teacher driven bughouse by primary student taunting 22134. concerned - 3/13/2002 1:53:14 AM Re. 22132 - 22135. concerned - 3/13/2002 1:53:35 AM And cllrdr's comment, too. 22136. Absensia - 3/13/2002 1:59:21 AM Hmmmmm? As far as your 22133, my sis is a middle school teacher. These days can do just about what they please and teachers in her district are not allowed to flunk kids...the district administrators don't want to upset the parents. B.S. Of course it's the parent's who scream when they first realize when their kid is 18, that the little darling can't read. 22137. concerned - 3/13/2002 2:03:03 AM Re. 22136 - 22138. concerned - 3/13/2002 2:09:27 AM I sort of wonder what this Tommy Schroeder expected the school administrators to do to the children. 22139. Absensia - 3/13/2002 2:34:57 AM 22137....the teachers are against this...but it's the district's policy...a little more diplomatically set out. 22140. concerned - 3/13/2002 2:37:55 AM In a major metropolitan center close to where I live, city public schools have greatly curtailed elementary grade 'social promotion' within the last couple of years in a bid to improve overall academic achievement. From what I gather, there has been relatively little complaint from parents so far. 22141. Absensia - 3/13/2002 2:39:42 AM Schroeder should have always carried a large roll of duct tape and used it when appropriate. Odd the school could not think of what to tell the kids. 22142. Absensia - 3/13/2002 2:41:30 AM Good...that's the way it should be. My sis teaches in a school district where a lot of people are nouveau riche, and it wouldn't be socially acceptively to have their little Buffy or Todd be held back. 22143. Absensia - 3/13/2002 2:42:28 AM It's time for me to sleep....night. 22144. concerned - 3/13/2002 2:46:17 AM Guess it's about time for me to toss & turn in, also:) 22145. Cellar Door - 3/13/2002 9:31:30 AM 22146. zojak quafeth - 3/13/2002 9:53:11 AM In a major metropolitan center close to where I live, city public schools have greatly curtailed elementary grade 'social promotion' within the last couple of years in a bid to improve overall academic achievement. From what I gather, there has been relatively little complaint from parents so far. 22147. robertjayb - 3/13/2002 1:27:53 PM Wow! So the tiny really, really rural school I attended eons ago was ahead of its time. We sat in rows according to grades one to four and had but one teacher. It worked as zojak describes with the big 'uns helping the little 'uns and with brighter kids doing work a grade or more ahead. 22148. thoughtful - 3/13/2002 1:35:00 PM Interesting...they say you never really learn something until you have to teach it to someone else. 22149. robertjayb - 3/13/2002 1:39:15 PM Don't eat the Hemlock...Didn't Socrates have a problem with this stuff? 22150. CalGal - 3/13/2002 1:44:17 PM I don't think much is accomplished by using kids as "teachers helpers". Kids are in school to learn, not carry those who can't manage by themselves. It's particularly disgusting to use bright kids in that way, as is often done in "group projects" or other excuses to pretend that really, all kids are equal. 22151. betty - 3/13/2002 1:50:47 PM CalGal, 22152. concerned - 3/13/2002 3:13:42 PM For Sakonige - 22153. thoughtful - 3/13/2002 3:51:09 PM bush is speaking on his own! 4 est! only the 2nd time in his admin he's doing this! how many misspeaks can you identify! 22154. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 4:00:16 PM Yates will be strapped to the gurney only because even Texas would be embarrassed by Harris County burning her at the stake. God have mercy on us all. 22155. concerned - 3/13/2002 4:01:01 PM Good to know that 'thoughtful' will be hanging on to GWB's every word, even if for the wrong reasons. But, what if the president gave an hourlong plus stemwinder like x42 and other dictators were wont to do? 22156. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 4:09:46 PM gee concerned, how many people did Clinton jail secrretly without trial? Isn't that a sort of dictator thing? 22157. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 4:11:14 PM Does this mean that George II will give longer stumbling speeches? 22158. CalGal - 3/13/2002 4:12:36 PM Four hours deliberation in a multiple homicide case where you have dueling experts, reems of medical records, and a number of lay witnesses to her behavior. 22159. Wombat - 3/13/2002 4:18:08 PM I know it is like poking a sleeping psychotic with a stick, but I'll try it. Concerned, why have you started referring to the twice-elected President Clinton as a dictator? 22160. Wombat - 3/13/2002 4:21:09 PM Given Texas' definition of how insanity is determined, the verdict was a forgone conclusion. 22161. Julius Caesar - 3/13/2002 4:21:14 PM Jones overlawyers. Just because there is a lot of paper and squawking doesn't mean that a jury need be convinced by any of it. Yahoo Dc juries convict pretty quick after drug trial that can exceed weeks. I wouldn't slime the DC jurors for not being swayed by a lot of paper and paid witnesses. 22162. CalGal - 3/13/2002 4:23:47 PM An excellent Slate piece that outlines everything that drives me nuts about Andrea Yates, the media coverage, and why so many yutzes think she "must" be insane: 22163. CalGal - 3/13/2002 4:24:21 PM Either way, the failure to view these crimes as morally or legally equivalent reflects a more central legal truth: We still view children as the mother's property. Since destroying one's own property is considered crazy while destroying someone else's property is criminal, women who murder their own children are sent to hospitals, whereas their husbands are criminals, who go to jail or the electric chair. 22164. betty - 3/13/2002 4:40:35 PM Cal, 22165. Absensia - 3/13/2002 4:43:16 PM Juries are told to review all the evidence before deciding. That would assume some thought. It may be they said...okay, that's enough, let's vote...how many of you think this horrible child murderer should be found guilty? 22166. betty - 3/13/2002 4:50:10 PM and why even consider if she was crazy. 22167. CalGal - 3/13/2002 4:51:08 PM It may be they said...okay, that's enough, let's vote...how many of you think this horrible child murderer should be found guilty? 22168. thoughtful - 3/13/2002 4:51:52 PM wisdom from our dear president in today's press conference: when there's unrest in the middle east, there's unrest in the whole region. 22169. CalGal - 3/13/2002 4:55:32 PM Betty, 22170. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 4:56:56 PM Julius- Perhaps my distaste for the death penalty in general and my prejudices concerning the whoeful state of understanding of psychological issues by the legal system and the general public has worked me into overlawyering. However, none of my information on the Yates case comes from TV coverage. Neither do I harbor any illusions about the ability of women in general or mothers in particular to hold, nay even savor, criminal intent towards their children. I've seen it personally more times than I care to recall. [no, not my mother, for the curious] I don't need Yates to be mentally ill for any political or philosphical agenda either. 22171. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 4:58:50 PM There is more than one issue of Yates thinking to be examined here. The first is the ability to intend the desired result, the intent to do the act itself. That issue is relatively clear, it is confessed by Yates and confirmed by all the physical evidence and circumstantial evidence. The second is the one where things are not simple. Did she have a malicious intent, a criminal heart, as part of her intention to do the act? The prosecution's theory is that she killed the children in order to obtain freedom for herself and vengence against the controlling husband. The defense theory is that she killed them to keep them from going to hell. 22172. mgleason - 3/13/2002 5:00:57 PM Here's a little Q&A on the guilty but insane verdict. Is not guilty by reason of insanity going the way of the dodo? 22173. glendajean - 3/13/2002 5:04:00 PM In my opinion, there are two separate issues here. If women suffer severe depression after pregnancy, they ought to get help. If people kill their children, they ought to go to jail. 22174. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 5:07:28 PM Susan Smith drowns her two boys because they interfere with her romantic plans and won't even think about giving them to their father, but would rather kill them instead. She stages a hoax blaming a mysterious black man for abducting 22175. mgleason - 3/13/2002 5:08:57 PM An interesting article on the Chicago law: Compromise verdict gives juries easy out. Apparently Oregon has a guilty except for insanity verdict which ensures that those convicted serve regular sentences in or under the control of psychiatric institutions. 22176. glendajean - 3/13/2002 5:11:30 PM Yates lives in a county that leads the state in death penaltie convictions. Or in the county next to it. The death penalty is used there often. 22177. CalGal - 3/13/2002 5:12:03 PM Jones, 22178. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 5:14:07 PM Mose is teaching elementary kids Spanish as part of her own enrichment. It especially helps bright math students to explain concepts to the ones who have more trouble understanding them. The brighter math students actually elevate their math thinking in the process. Bob has seen this in action many times. I often think Slack and some others here benefit in some ways from explaining difficult concepts to us here in the Mote, and I'd be interested to know if that verbalization of an explanation is beneficial to the one explaining. I know it is for me. 22179. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 5:15:27 PM Dad duty calls, but I will revisit the thread and the issue this evening. 22180. CalGal - 3/13/2002 5:17:18 PM this and the differing death penalty rates has not a damn thing to do with property or mother complexes. 22181. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 5:19:05 PM A classic narcisistic sociopath is insane under any formula used in the US-M'Naughten, Model Penal Code, irresistable impulse, diminished capacity what have you. Death row, and prisons in general, have heapin' helpins of em. 22182. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 5:20:32 PM erratum "is not insane" in previous post. 22183. Jonesatlaw - 3/13/2002 5:24:34 PM Cal- You and Slate ignore the fact that women get the death penalty far less than men in cases of stranger killings as well as familial ones. 22184. thoughtful - 3/13/2002 5:24:49 PM glendaj, re #22173, the "coming unhinged" really understates how severely ill this woman was...she had been hospitalized for mental illness 4 times including suffering episodes of near catatonia. She attempted suicide twice. She suffered delusions. She would literally tear her hair out looking for the "666" the mark of the devil on her scalp. She was on heavy psychotropic drugs including haldol. She stopped eating, getting extremely thin. She would walk around for hours with the newborn on her hip who was crying while she refused to feed the child. (This she did with each of her last 2 children.) Her own husband described her as "zombie-like" during a period between hospitalizations which he also described as a period in which she was significantly improving. She also has a family history of mental illness, including depression and bi-polar disorder. 22185. CalGal - 3/13/2002 5:28:41 PM Jones, 22186. Snowowl - 3/13/2002 5:29:12 PM There are times I'm profoundly grateful I live in a country that doesn't have the death penalty. 22187. CalGal - 3/13/2002 5:29:52 PM Should have said "criminal verdicts", sorry. 22188. CalGal - 3/13/2002 5:34:32 PM LA Times 22189. thoughtful - 3/13/2002 5:53:04 PM I hope ms. yates gets life, not death. I don't believe that she is a danger to society or anyone else...she's probably a greater danger to herself. 22190. concerned - 3/13/2002 5:53:55 PM Interesting...they say you never really learn something until you have to teach it to someone else. 22191. CalGal - 3/13/2002 6:00:42 PM She wasn't ripping her hair out in a catatonic state, thoughtful. Not when she killed them, not when she was interviewed by the police. She might have started that when her lawyer suggested it would be useful to be insane, though. 22192. concerned - 3/13/2002 6:01:36 PM Re. 22159 - 22193. concerned - 3/13/2002 6:03:02 PM I love to excuse women, if they're cute&cuddly & like me a lot. 22194. concerned - 3/13/2002 6:09:05 PM I suspect that those who wish to believe Russell Yates significantly culpable of the deaths of his children are grossly minimizing, by either rationalizing away or not acknowledging the significance of the violent nature of the physical act of purposely taking other peoples' lives, itself. 22195. robertjayb - 3/13/2002 6:25:04 PM There is quite a bit of sentiment for hauling Russell Yates into court. The Houston media put the question to the district attorney. I have no idea what the charge would be but I have heard my law professor, McCoy on Law and Order, speak of depraved indifference. Don't know if it exists in real life. 22196. Snowowl - 3/13/2002 6:26:25 PM She wasn't ripping her hair out in a catatonic state, thoughtful. Not when she killed them, not when she was interviewed by the police. She might have started that when her lawyer suggested it would be useful to be insane. 22197. concerned - 3/13/2002 6:26:42 PM I'd like to see some learned legal opinion on this 'depraved indifference'. Splashed across the network media. 22198. Absensia - 3/13/2002 6:31:23 PM Snow, I agree that you are fortunate. I wish we lived in such a country. 22199. concerned - 3/13/2002 6:31:52 PM Question: 22200. concerned - 3/13/2002 6:36:02 PM If not, might be hard to prove 'depraved indifference' by her husband. Just my opinion. 22201. concerned - 3/13/2002 6:38:01 PM After all, we can't slap a restraining order or straitjacket on every mom in a checkout line who threatens to 'kill' her misbehaving kid. 22202. Absensia - 3/13/2002 6:44:56 PM Perhaps something like negligence in failing to care of his children? That's all I can think of. 22203. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 6:59:36 PM Not even the prosecution suggested Yates was faking anything. Her mental health record speaks for itself, and Texas law on an insanity plea is as Snow states it. With her history and the instability shown in testimony and his contribution to the family environment it's obvious Randall Yates bears some moral responsibility for depending on her for the primary care of his children and contributing to the condition of the household, but that's not the same as legal responsibility and I don't have a clue what would be considered legal negligence since he did provide physically for his kids' needs. 22204. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 7:00:35 PM "...instability of the home," that should read. 22205. concerned - 3/13/2002 7:05:16 PM Isn't that 'Russell' Yates? 22206. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 7:06:21 PM Probably. 22207. Absensia - 3/13/2002 7:47:08 PM Would you leave your kids with someone who had that record, and you knew about it? Wouldn't that be at least negligence? Where do we drawn the line between saying...it's mommy or saying mommy is very sick and I must find another to care for the children until mommy gets well. 22208. Absensia - 3/13/2002 7:48:30 PM Even Rapp Brown didn't get the death penalty: "Former '60s radical Jamil Al-Amin sentenced to life without parole 22209. Absensia - 3/13/2002 7:55:05 PM This is one of the parent liability statutes in this state: "Abuse or neglect" means the injury, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, negligent treatment, or maltreatment of a child by any person under circumstances which indicate that the child's health, welfare, and safety is harmed, excluding conduct permitted under RCW 9A.16.100. An abused child is a child who has been subjected to child abuse or neglect as defined in this section." 22210. betty - 3/13/2002 7:56:11 PM Jones, 22211. Snowowl - 3/13/2002 8:02:07 PM I think the father abused his children by having them with a clearly mentally ill mother and fills the definition of neglect as well. 22212. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:02:33 PM And, if it's life in prison, she will be liable for parole at some time...and will no doubt have not gotten the psychological help she needs. 22213. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:06:25 PM Snow, it depends on the mother's illness and what is being done about it. Andrea Yates had talked about suicide and killing the children. If some other mother talked about killing children then that is abuse to leave them with her. 22214. mgleason - 3/13/2002 8:10:29 PM Last week's Newsweek had an interesting take on Andrea Yates and the diagnosis of schizophrenia combined with depression made by Dr Phillip Resnick of Case Western Reserve: 22215. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:11:27 PM I have no idea if a prosecutor would charge on this basis and I'm interpreting our statute that uses abuse and neglect in the same sentence. I think it's serious neglect to not have a caretaker has serious problems and you know it. 22216. wonkers2 - 3/13/2002 8:13:18 PM No, in my opinion. 22217. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 8:13:25 PM Abs, I agree, and I defer to you on the legal basis for the argument, since I don't know the law on that at all, and it will be interesting to see if it is pursued. If the father can plead for his wife's life and go on from there, then he's got an interesting emotional fortitude. 22218. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:15:33 PM It is very close to the one in this state...and as I have said, "not guilty by reason of insanity" is a very difficult verdict to get. I think it's because the jury is not told that if they rule that way the defendant will be in legal custody and in a criminal mental institution for some time. I think the court should advise the jury of this. 22219. betty - 3/13/2002 8:15:33 PM Absensia, 22220. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:17:06 PM Betty, there is a little here, but like everything, there is little money and it's being stretched too thin. I think Andrea Yates needs strong and aggressive treatment. 22221. Snowowl - 3/13/2002 8:18:15 PM I've read you wrong I think. You used the word "having" when on re-reading I think you meant leaving. 22222. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 8:18:28 PM A Houston law professor was interviewed on NPR this afternoon and his comments on the narrow Texas law were very interesting, and he pointed out that the jury not only had little room to maneuver between guilty and innocence due to insanity under the definition, but that they are not informed of the fact that under a successful insanity defense the individual is still forcibly confined to an institution. 22223. wonkers2 - 3/13/2002 8:19:02 PM Unless Andrea Yates was capable of resisting whatever made her kill her children it's not logical to hold her morally responsible for their deaths. It makes no sense to say that someone SHOULD do something they are incapable of doing. 22224. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:19:40 PM No Wonks, even if you had known of the "problems" this baby sitter had? What if you left your kid with Cap-n-Dirty? Hmmmm? Such "neglect" statutes usally are misdemeanors or gross misdemeanors so the punishment is not great. 22225. mgleason - 3/13/2002 8:20:31 PM What do you think of Oregon's guilty except for insanity verdict, Abs? The convicted serve their regular sentences, only it's either in a psychiatric institution or under the direction of one. The public interest seems to be served - a guaranteed sentence - and the individuals are guaranteed psychiatric care, which is not the case elsewhere, no matter what their condition. 22226. betty - 3/13/2002 8:21:01 PM Snowowl (and any others living in more civilized countries...) 22227. Snowowl - 3/13/2002 8:21:22 PM Wonkers, it seems that Texas law doesn't allow for that differentiation. On the narrow definition they use, if she knew right from wrong she is guilty. She admitted she knew it was wrong to kill them. Overwhelming compulsions don't come into it in Texas, apparently. 22228. CalGal - 3/13/2002 8:23:31 PM If overwhelming compulsions are exculpatory, then say goodbye to pedophile convictions. In fact, all sexual predator crimes. 22229. Snowowl - 3/13/2002 8:23:47 PM I don't think so, Betty. We have got quite a high violent crime rate here (although I'm not sure of the statistics). There's no popular support for reinstatement of the death penalty here at all. 22230. Snowowl - 3/13/2002 8:23:52 PM I don't think so, Betty. We have got quite a high violent crime rate here (although I'm not sure of the statistics). There's no popular support for reinstatement of the death penalty here at all. 22231. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:25:07 PM Snow, I meant leaving your child...and what I'm trying to say is if you knew this person had an ustable background within the 3 years or more..and not just attempted suicide, but had neglected or abused their child in the thinking of killing them...and you knew that. 22232. CalGal - 3/13/2002 8:27:01 PM So basically, Abs, anyone with post-partum depression or diagnosed depression of any sort can't be alone wiht children? 22233. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:27:09 PM Maria, I think Oregon's statute is good, especially if the jury knows the person will still be sent to a prison. 22234. bubbaette - 3/13/2002 8:28:23 PM My guess is that Yeatts would welcome death. I know I would if I were in her place. 22235. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:33:42 PM Cal, it would depend on how severe the p.p.d. was. I don't think anyone with post-partum depression poses a threat to children...BUT Andrea Yates did not have a simple case of p.p.d. 22236. betty - 3/13/2002 8:36:23 PM CalGal, 22237. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:37:00 PM Cal...I think Andrea Yates may, and I say may, have known the difference between right and wrong, and deserves to have stood trial and receive the condition she did....but, I think the father should also face consequences. It isn't as if this all came out of the blue. 22238. CalGal - 3/13/2002 8:38:33 PM doctors had told the husband of her problems...but he chose to ignore them 22239. CalGal - 3/13/2002 8:39:18 PM ...this woman had been diagnosed with severe mental illness, was not getting treatment, was not functional and had obvious outward signs of an active mental illness that did seem (from what i know) aggrevated by the household situation... 22240. betty - 3/13/2002 8:43:04 PM Cal, 22241. Absensia - 3/13/2002 8:43:41 PM Cal, I thought Mr. Yates had takes his wife to the hospital before, had been told of her conditions etc...It's not a lie or falsehood, it's what I thought I heard. If I'm wrong, okay, it's wrong. Obviously I didn't watch the trial, and like everyone had to rely on news sources. 22242. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 9:00:26 PM My reading up is what led me to the conclusion that R Yates bears some of the blame for leaving his kids in such an unstable environment. 22243. thoughtful - 3/13/2002 9:14:12 PM 'concerned', re 22199, gee, I dunno, maybe the fact that she was refusing to feed her hungry crying infant? Or is that just a disciplinary technique deployed by responsible, loving parents. 22244. thoughtful - 3/13/2002 9:15:06 PM Absensia, #22202, re 'getting crazy in jail', if that was the strategy, they really failed since andrea has improved since she was jailed, not deteriorated. 22245. CalGal - 3/13/2002 9:20:50 PM Timeline 22246. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 9:31:32 PM That timeline is supposed to support the contention that it was ok for her husband to leave her alone with her kids? 22247. CalGal - 3/13/2002 9:34:00 PM It's just barely possible, Arky, that I wasn't responding to you. Especially given the two posts above yours that were asking for cites. 22248. thoughtful - 3/13/2002 9:35:57 PM betty, check this for your prison stats. 22249. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 9:36:21 PM So what? I'm responding to you. 22250. CalGal - 3/13/2002 9:39:17 PM Well, when you figured out what I provided that cite "in support" for, instead of the notion you pulled out of your ass, give it another shot. 22251. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 9:44:31 PM Nope. The discussion, including the "two posts above" my post was on whether Russell Yates had any responsibility in what happened, considering the severity of her condition was long-standing and dangerous and widely known, which is exactly what I addressed in my response to that timeline. 22252. CalGal - 3/13/2002 10:26:25 PM I won't be bothering with you; you didn't say anything worth responding to. Lord knows that isn't new. 22253. joezan - 3/13/2002 10:51:09 PM betty: 22254. Absensia - 3/13/2002 10:54:07 PM Baaaaaaaa Baaaaaa. (gasp pant) baaaaaa Baaa. 22255. joezan - 3/13/2002 11:04:38 PM ? 22256. arkymalarky - 3/13/2002 11:06:19 PM Oh no. Does this mean Cal isn't speaking to me? I guess I don't know my own strength. 22257. Absensia - 3/13/2002 11:07:01 PM That wasn't for you, Joe dear...that was in response to Cal's saying people, including me, were bleating! : P 22258. joezan - 3/13/2002 11:10:01 PM Oh. 22259. Snowowl - 3/13/2002 11:14:32 PM In order to "keep banalities within the range of facts": 22260. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 3:03:59 AM Snowowl is correct on both counts according to Parry, Mood Disorders and the Reproductive Cycle, Journal of Gender Specific Medicine. 22261. thoughtful - 3/14/2002 8:53:20 AM According to the link I posted above from the Bureau of Justice, "6.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at yearend 1999 --3.1% of all U.S. adult residents" 22262. betty - 3/14/2002 9:53:00 AM thoughtful, 22263. judithathome - 3/14/2002 10:06:32 AM I've pretty much done whatever battling I'm going to do with the various mouthbreathers who want to spend time blaming the husband 22264. CalGal - 3/14/2002 10:13:52 AM No, Judith, that wasn't my stated goal. I remind you again that you are not to restate anything I've said. Use direct quotes. 22265. betty - 3/14/2002 10:15:30 AM Oh Cal, yer so cute it just makes me want to kiss you sometimes! How do you get so much venom in your body...I have so much to learn. 22266. CalGal - 3/14/2002 10:22:26 AM Arky, 22267. Absensia - 3/14/2002 10:28:02 AM Baaaah! 22268. CalGal - 3/14/2002 10:35:13 AM No, that's a goat. 22269. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 10:56:43 AM Cal- What "distinct behavior" in postpartum psychosis differentiates it from psychotic behavior in other psychoses? 22270. judithathome - 3/14/2002 11:00:30 AM Here ya' go, sweetums...though that warning has me shaking in my Gucci's. 22271. CalGal - 3/14/2002 11:06:24 AM Right. Now look at what you quoted above, Judith. Focus hard. 22272. judithathome - 3/14/2002 11:12:37 AM Hey, some people actually read what is written. 22273. CalGal - 3/14/2002 11:21:17 AM I am absolutely ready to rumble. But the ones who try to walk the line with pious "Yes, Andrea Yates is wrong, but what about the husband?" bore me to tears. We had that go-round last week. So long as people state the facts, they can bleat about the slob. 22274. judithathome - 3/14/2002 11:25:46 AM Oh please...if you want to get into BORING...honey, you are writing the book. But you are right; I have more interesting things to do than listen to you go on about how much you know about the world and everything in it...like watching paint dry. 22275. Absensia - 3/14/2002 11:28:10 AM Cal, you don't "listen" to any of us, you read what is written, allegedly. Rather than spending so much time ranting about your ennui and ordering people about, just don't read the posts of those of us you find to have no redeeming value. 22276. Absensia - 3/14/2002 11:29:50 AM BTW,Cal, would also like to know the difference of PPP, and Psychosis behavior. Cite? 22277. Absensia - 3/14/2002 11:38:52 AM Maybe some of this should be moved to t he inferno and the issues of psychosis, etc., be moved to the health thread. 22278. thoughtful - 3/14/2002 11:43:13 AM J@h, tinnitus. That's it. Tinnitus! 22279. CalGal - 3/14/2002 12:01:51 PM PPP 22280. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 1:00:50 PM Cal- spare us the Psychology Today level crap. Yates did have a sudden onset, with the first instance of postpartum depression. The DSM uses 4 weeks not 2-3 as an onset window, and this is debated by many clinicians as being too narrow a window. Yates was described as being agitated, picking at her scalp and hair, not eating and being suicidal prior to the killings. The rate of recurrance of postpartum depression is very high in subsequent pregancies. 22281. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 1:08:53 PM Here's some scholary work on the subject of postpartum mood disorders-Spinelli 22282. vw - 3/14/2002 1:13:53 PM I'm always a bit bemused at allegations that R. Yates ignored his wife's condition given that she had been to see at least five different professionals, had been hospitalized twice and had been on regular courses of medication. Call me silly, but that sounds like treatment, which seems to indicate recognition of her condition. 22283. vw - 3/14/2002 1:14:02 PM Onto that bothersome final pregnancy: Should it have occurred? Probably not, but then I dont think any of the pregnancies after her second should have occurred. Wanting to have five kids is IMO, evidence of a mental illness right there (evil grin). 22284. CalGal - 3/14/2002 1:24:31 PM Psychology Today? Give me a break. You've just acknowledged the definition is accurate according to the DSM. 22285. CalGal - 3/14/2002 1:29:07 PM I completely agree with vw's 22282-83, and have said much the same myself, albeit with less patience. 22286. vw - 3/14/2002 1:32:45 PM Well, patience is my middle name ... or was it dipshit? I can never remember (shrug). 22287. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 1:33:01 PM A UK view of postpartum mood disorders 22288. CalGal - 3/14/2002 1:34:23 PM UK? That's where a mother can kill her kid in the first year and she skates? Oh, that's a place I'm willing to take seriously on this subject. 22289. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 1:43:34 PM Cal-Psychology Today? Give me a break. You've just acknowledged the definition is accurate according to the DSM. 22290. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 1:49:23 PM 22291. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 1:54:37 PM But I am also convinced that the failure to believe that Yates is innocent has more to do with how poorly most people understand mental illness and the power and vividness of its symptoms. The Yates verdict provides a glimpse of an almost medieval view of insanity and the insane, a view that unfortunately persists in the present. 22292. Åse - 3/14/2002 1:56:49 PM Oh, that was annoying. At least he defended RY. But, most people with mental illness don't kill. 22293. betty - 3/14/2002 1:57:16 PM JC, 22294. Snowowl - 3/14/2002 2:08:14 PM Yates did have an earlier outbreak of postpartum depression and yes, the rate of recurrence is very high in subsequent pregnancies. Also so what? There is no known link between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis--ie, a woman at risk for ppd is not considered more at risk for ppp. That doesn't mean it isn't possible, but you can't point to one as a link to the other. 22295. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 2:35:19 PM Finally, regarding Rusty Yates leaving his children with his wife, this is what the prosecution's expert psychiatrist says: 22296. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 3:24:20 PM Cellar 22297. Absensia - 3/14/2002 4:49:17 PM Cal, your #22278 post confuses me: 22298. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 5:15:34 PM #22296, Not a surprising result for an organization that limits its selection pool to candidates willing to take a vow of celibacy and enter a male only profession. 22299. CalGal - 3/14/2002 5:23:21 PM I think it's reasonably unlikely Yates will get the death penalty, if this Houston Chronicle piece is accurate. 22300. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 5:30:23 PM I, for one, never suggested Yates ignored his wife's condition. I suggested he shouldn't have left her in care of the children alone, especially as much as he did, considering she was responsible for teaching them at home. If his MIL was helping her that's better than nothing, but she still was left with them under no supervision, right after her husband told the doctors she didn't seem to be improving tapering off the Haldol. 22301. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 5:32:40 PM I would agree that she wouldn't likely get the death penalty if it weren't for the specific location in TX where she's being tried. 22302. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 5:38:23 PM Cal- I wish I could agree with you. Even the state's theory is that the woman was mentally ill, perhaps even schizophrenic. However, she kept having kids, not taking her meds, and generally doing crazy things like homeschooling her kids while they were crammed in a bus as a home. [though they had a conventional home at the time of the killings, and had for more than a short while] She killed her kids knowing it was wrong because they were not developing right, but really it was in revenge for the life she felt trapped in. Jurrors are not instructed about the possibility of parole, or its impossibility. They may not realize that she'd be 77 before she could hit the street, and that any pregnancy would be in prison and the child protected by the guards, until placed in other's care. 22303. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:40:17 PM How out of tocuh with reality could Yates have been? 22304. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:41:44 PM Correction: 22305. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:42:58 PM The Credo of Those Crazy, Buffoonish Texans 22306. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 5:43:47 PM JC- handled a lot of cases of malicious criminals reporting themselves for multiple homicides and waiting for the gendarmes? 22307. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:44:00 PM We know our heritage. Most of us are more literate than you (e.g., Welty, Williams, Faulkner). We are also better educated and generally a lot nicer. Don't refer to us as a bunch of hillbillies, or we'll kick your ass. 22308. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 5:46:19 PM Schizophrenics from what I have seen sometimes are compelled to do bizarre, irrational things, urged on by the "voices." Depending on the circumstances they are capable of concealing or revealing their hallucinations. 22309. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:49:06 PM Jones 22310. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 5:49:14 PM I see it now, all those people I represented and secretly thought were guilty were innocent, because they didn't realize what they were doing was wrong and call 911 and wait for the cops, like that scheming and maliciously mentally ill Andrea Yates. If they knew what they were doing was wrong they's call in and report themselves to keep themselves from suspicion so the cops would think they were innocent, but then they'd be guilty, or no, they'd be innocent.... 22311. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 5:49:28 PM It's useless to talk to people who don't know anything about mental illness, because they all try to apply logic to insane behavior. If she could do blah, then she must have been blah. 22312. Erin R. - 3/14/2002 5:50:19 PM I think it's odd that your friend would be convicted when she appears to be genuinely insane. 22313. CalGal - 3/14/2002 5:50:20 PM I have no problem with her being put to death. Since we have the death penalty, I can think of no better purpose for it. But I don't know how they could get past future risk. Maybe I don't know what the options are. 22314. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:52:50 PM Manson was severely mentally ill. Dahmer too. Gacy too. Bundy too. Hitler. Stalin. You name 'em. Most folks who premeditate barbarity are severely mentally ill. 22315. CalGal - 3/14/2002 5:54:23 PM Exactly. Andrea Yates is nothing more than a variant on a form. You think Gacy was a happy guy just because he dressed in a clownsuit? 22316. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:55:02 PM That is a good one: 22317. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 5:55:11 PM No, JC, they weren't. 22318. judithathome - 3/14/2002 5:56:28 PM Jeez, Cal...do you honestly think she won't be allowed conjugal visits if she's given life? That would be inhuman, right? Think of Rusty's rights, after all. 22319. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:56:45 PM Of course not. 22320. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 5:56:53 PM And do not put your idiotic read of my post as though it were direct quotes. 22321. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 5:57:58 PM I know this person who thinks the world is metal, so Yates must be crazy. 22322. CalGal - 3/14/2002 5:58:05 PM Jeez, Cal...do you honestly think she won't be allowed conjugal visits if she's given life? 22323. judithathome - 3/14/2002 5:59:49 PM And I guess some of those guards in Texas prisons are stupid and barbaric enough to impregnate women in prison, too...so maybe the jury WILL get beyond the first measure. 22324. judithathome - 3/14/2002 6:00:56 PM Sigh....yes, I was joking. Odd that you'd have to ask but then, I've never been overly impressed with your sense of humor. 22325. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 6:05:18 PM I repeat myself, where is the logic in punishing someone for something they were incapable of resisting? Holding people accountable only for actions under their control is one of the moral foundations of our judicial system. It simply makes sense to say that someone ought to do something they are incapable of doing. 22326. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 6:06:20 PM Julius, you are the very illustration of the limitations of the knowledge of otherwise literate and intelligent people about basic issues of abnormal psychology. 22327. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:06:25 PM I actually wasn't looking to beat you up on that one; I was terrified there was some weird rule that says wives get to have sex in prison. 22328. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 6:07:28 PM They were diddling Susan Smith in South Carolina and Richard Speck was a Party Animal 22329. Snowowl - 3/14/2002 6:07:43 PM She knew that killing was against the law, i.e. it was wrong (illegal) to kill, so she called the police. 22330. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:08:06 PM I repeat myself, where is the logic in punishing someone for something they were incapable of resisting? 22331. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 6:08:31 PM Oh yeah, take off your Mom's tablecloth and put on some pants. 22332. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:10:12 PM She believed that she was serving a greater good by killing the kids (they weren't developing properly, she was a bad mother and it was her fault so she deserved to be punished). 22333. Snowowl - 3/14/2002 6:10:29 PM What does sex offending have to do with it, unless sex offenders are absolutely compelled to have sex all the time? Nobody locks paedophiles away for wanting to have sex with kids - they lock them away for acting on that desire. Are you saying that paedophiles have irrestible compulsions to go out and act on their desires? 22334. mgleason - 3/14/2002 6:10:30 PM What gets lost in the translation is that a person's moral judgment may be unimpaired, yet overridden by commands believed to come directly from God or Satan, as the defense for Andrea Yates claimed. 22335. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 6:11:04 PM Jones 22336. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 6:11:19 PM JC, 22337. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:12:09 PM Are you saying that paedophiles have irrestible compulsions to go out and act on their desires? 22338. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 6:12:24 PM maria 22339. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:13:57 PM What gets lost in the translation is that a person's moral judgment may be unimpaired, yet overridden by commands believed to come directly from God or Satan, as the defense for Andrea Yates claimed. 22340. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 6:16:27 PM Maria 22341. judithathome - 3/14/2002 6:17:03 PM Cal: 22342. mgleason - 3/14/2002 6:17:28 PM It's not the claiming of irresistible compulsions that determines whether they are irresistible, or whether the person claiming so is insane. That's determined by extensive testing of the subject. What I'm saying is that knowledge of what society considers right and wrong is not the test of sanity. 22343. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:18:34 PM That works. 22344. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 6:18:41 PM No, but we don't execute them, either. It's a hard question without an easy answer. All sex offenders can't be lumped into a single bag. They may have compulsions, but most of them aren't insane. I agree it's not practical to excuse criminals because they couldn't resist the temptation commit illegal acts. Most of them can be assumed to know that what they have done is wrong and that society expects them to control themselves. Treatment might be the answer for some, prison for others, in order to prevent them from harming others. No one has suggested that Andrea Yates is a danger to the community. 22345. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:19:58 PM Judith, 22346. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:21:20 PM No one has suggested that Andrea Yates is a danger to the community. 22347. Julius Caesar - 3/14/2002 6:25:02 PM Maria 22348. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 6:26:35 PM I don't believe "all" offenders of any kind should either be excused or punished or treated. Their cases must be examined and appropriate actions taken based on all attendant circumstances: the seriousness of the offense, the motive, whether or not the individual was sane or insane, etc. I don't subscribe to the Sigmund Freud "I'm depraved because I was deprived" theory of justice. People who are sane must be held accountable by the community for their actions. People who are truly insane should be dealt with in some other way. 22349. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:27:44 PM I'm depraved because I was deprived 22350. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 6:30:38 PM There are several important and basic philosophical and psychological distinctions that are being blurred here. First, many offenders are mentally ill by some definition, but still morally responsible. Sociopaths are mentally ill, know their actions are wrong, but frankly don't give a damn. They truly believe that they are entitled to do whatever they want, to whoever they want, whenever they want. They will try to avoid dectection not out of shame, but merely in the attempt to avoid unpleasant consequences. 22351. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 6:31:11 PM "If I kill my husband for profit and am a millionaire I am not a danger to the community." 22352. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:32:23 PM Anyway, you did something very wrong and should be punished for it unless you were insane. 22353. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 6:33:01 PM Jones, very good. Seldom affirm; never deny; always distinguish. 22354. mgleason - 3/14/2002 6:33:22 PM Vamonos. 22355. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 6:34:19 PM Stephen Sondheim, courtesy of Sigmund Freud. 22356. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:35:38 PM Hey, Jones, I thought you said no more Psychology Today. 22357. Jonesatlaw - 3/14/2002 6:49:49 PM Cal- even the state's expert said she was psychotic. So, if it didn't fly with the jury, they weren't listening to the state or the defense, neither were you. 22358. CalGal - 3/14/2002 6:56:30 PM Jones, 22359. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 7:15:18 PM So let's say they are insane, too. 22360. CalGal - 3/14/2002 7:18:38 PM Let's not, since there's no clinical basis for it. 22361. judithathome - 3/14/2002 7:21:08 PM I don't think I know anyone who thinks of children as women's property...didn't that sort of go out of vogue after the civil war? 22362. CalGal - 3/14/2002 7:23:07 PM Judith, I'm not sure you know anyone who thinks. 22363. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 7:25:19 PM Of course the problem with treating mentally ill criminals is that the "treatment" often last much longer than the maximum criminal sentence would have been for their crime, sometimes for life. For this reason, some psychiatrists have advocated eliminating the insanity or mental illness defense, instead basing sentencing solely on the seriousness of the crime. (Thomas Szasz, for one I believe.) Others take the same position because some are released as cured only to repeat their previous crime. There are no perfect, practical solutions. 22364. CalGal - 3/14/2002 7:26:23 PM Ha. Hit enter too soon, but I think it looks better all by itself. 22365. mgleason - 3/14/2002 7:26:43 PM I'm interested in monsters; I think that we can learn a lot from them, and while I think that psychiatric treatment for mentally ill prisoners worthwhile in itself, that's not the only (or even the most important) selling point for me. I can accept that prisoners like Andrea Yates can't be rehabilitated, but they can at least help us understand what made them the way they are and perhaps aid in prevention.. 22366. judithathome - 3/14/2002 7:27:18 PM Cal, you might think so but then, you also think marriage is just a business transaction so nothing you say surprises me. 22367. judithathome - 3/14/2002 7:29:40 PM And come on...admit you just thought of a better retort...that "hitting enter too soon" ruse is just the. 22368. judithathome - 3/14/2002 7:30:17 PM See? I can claim it, too.... 22369. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 7:33:54 PM The Myth of Mental Illness/Thomas Szasz 22370. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 7:34:11 PM Cal the psychiatry expert, when she's not playing expert in everything else. No serious thought, just talk talk talk, presenting the only "right" answer over and over, coupled with accusations that others aren't thinking or "tracking." 22371. CalGal - 3/14/2002 7:34:20 PM Nonsense, Judith, nothing in my response is a different retort. 22372. arkymalarky - 3/14/2002 7:39:03 PM Well, it's been fun, but I'm out. I want to go play before it gets dark. 22373. mgleason - 3/14/2002 7:39:32 PM CG, 22374. CalGal - 3/14/2002 7:41:21 PM Maria, 22375. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 7:43:16 PM I'm with you on this point, Maria for many reasons, practical and moral. My state, Michigan, abolished the death penalty more than a hundred years ago. And I've seen no evidence of more capital crimes here than other comparable states that practice capital punishment. 22376. wonkers2 - 3/14/2002 8:30:55 PM Another view: Thomas Szasz Manifesto 22377. Wombat - 3/15/2002 7:46:54 AM That ol' softy, Charles Krauthammer (a trained psychiatrist before turning into a conservative scourge) believes that Yates should have been found not guilty by reason of insanity, based on the case presented by the defense. 22378. CalGal - 3/15/2002 9:58:32 AM Plenty of conservative scourges buy into the notion that children are women's property. Of course, this presumes that Krauthammer's opinion matters. After all, he'd know better than the jury. 22379. judithathome - 3/15/2002 10:16:42 AM A follow-up on a bizarre story discussed here last week: 22380. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 10:18:03 AM Yes, I saw that. 22381. judithathome - 3/15/2002 10:23:37 AM Did you see his picture on the news? He's very cute. He must have had a difficult life; I noticed he was raised by his grandparents. (Not the reason for difficulty...I meant his father's mental problems.) It must have been his maternal grandparents because his father's mother was estranged from her son, I believe. 22382. thoughtful - 3/15/2002 2:20:14 PM Death sounds preferable. 22383. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 2:22:15 PM The poor dear. 22384. judithathome - 3/15/2002 2:36:38 PM They have a verdict already...just waiting for them to file in and deliver it. 22385. robertjayb - 3/15/2002 2:46:09 PM Can I post? 22386. judithathome - 3/15/2002 2:49:18 PM Sure Robert...it's your thread! 22387. vw - 3/15/2002 2:50:01 PM s'okay by me (grin) 22388. robertjayb - 3/15/2002 2:53:01 PM I was getting an error message similar to the one that appeared in the most recent outage... Probably just me. 22389. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 2:53:13 PM Seems appropriate to me. Doesn't sound like she'll have much exposure to members of the opposite sex, so it looks like a safe bet she won't get pregnant again. 22390. robertjayb - 3/15/2002 2:55:39 PM And here it is again: 22391. judithathome - 3/15/2002 2:56:12 PM There's always immaculate conception.. 22392. judithathome - 3/15/2002 2:58:22 PM There's always immaculate conception.. 22393. vw - 3/15/2002 2:58:37 PM No, I've been getting the same SQL error sporadically also, Robert. 22394. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 3:00:00 PM I've seen that error, too. 22395. robertjayb - 3/15/2002 3:01:06 PM Andrea Yates may thrive in prison. Texas is supposed to have pretty good mental health facilities. The guards are not likely to be more controlling than the religiously insane husband. 22396. judithathome - 3/15/2002 3:01:27 PM Well, sorry for the double post.... 22397. theDiva - 3/15/2002 3:02:24 PM not to nitpick, Judith, but IC means conceived without original sin, not conceived without sex. ;) 22398. judithathome - 3/15/2002 3:04:34 PM Hey, as you can see I have gaps in my relgious knowledge! 22399. theDiva - 3/15/2002 3:08:33 PM well, I tell you this, I hope she's guarded by females only. I'd fear for any child borne by that woman. 22400. Cellar Door - 3/15/2002 3:09:13 PM Actually the guards may be less controlling than her husband. 22401. ronski - 3/15/2002 3:13:43 PM I suppose life in prison was a foregone conclusion given that only one juror had to dissent on the death penalty. 22402. judithathome - 3/15/2002 3:18:57 PM Yeah, despite the ravings about "blood-thirsty moronic Texas juries", I was certain this decision would come down. 22403. thoughtful - 3/15/2002 3:26:08 PM according to the radio story I heard, the prosecutors actually made a strong case for life and 10 of the jury didn't believe she was a threat to others. 22404. vw - 3/15/2002 3:28:43 PM Continued IC nitpicking: and it was Mary's own conception that was immaculate, not Christ's. Pius IX pronounced that Mary's conception was "preserved exempt from all stain of original sin." 22405. betty - 3/15/2002 3:36:54 PM Wow! that stuff about IC is fascinating! So NOT what I have been lead to believe. 22406. theDiva - 3/15/2002 3:45:43 PM Go on wit you bad self, veedub. 22407. vw - 3/15/2002 3:52:07 PM Hey, us Recovering Roman Catholics ... we know our frickin' doctrine! 22408. theDiva - 3/15/2002 3:54:53 PM (high fives vw) 22409. Absensia - 3/15/2002 3:57:09 PM russel yayes is talking at a press conferece....interesting 22410. vw - 3/15/2002 4:00:59 PM Damn ... no TV in the office.... what's the gist Ab? 22411. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 4:03:31 PM CNN reports on-line that a guy in Portland killed his wife and four children. 22412. Absensia - 3/15/2002 4:04:30 PM he is sad, went to a 20 yr high school reunion this year and darn, he's right where he was then...has no wife (she's in jail) and no kids..rme...and he spent a lot of time saying he did everything he could..and the docs and hospitals were to blame 22413. Absensia - 3/15/2002 4:06:14 PM Andrea is a victim of the medical ystem and justice system. And, the judge's gag order was unconsitutional. 22414. Absensia - 3/15/2002 4:08:27 PM ohhhh, and they took her off anti psychotic drugs only a couple of weeks before she killed the kids. 22415. CalGal - 3/15/2002 4:56:05 PM I dunno why, but this headline just cracked me up. 22416. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 4:57:18 PM Yes, that was pretty funny. 22417. Absensia - 3/15/2002 5:00:52 PM I think old Russel is going to cut and run...as soon as he brings those lawsuits against the doctors, et al, and the insurance companies. Then he'll disappear! When asked what now? Would he support his wife, divorce her, or what...he answered in sort of a sleazy way (to me) "oh, I'll always support her." And he seemed most mad about the gag order because it made him look bad...he didn't say it, but it was clear. 22418. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 5:04:02 PM Yes, Russell seems to have some Issues. 22419. Absensia - 3/15/2002 5:04:08 PM Poor Ava! 22420. arkymalarky - 3/15/2002 5:20:07 PM Hey! I almost cried over that headline, thinking about poor little Diva being carried off like that. 22421. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 5:21:20 PM I wonder if I could get the eagle to carry off my husband's dog. 22422. glendajean - 3/15/2002 5:27:23 PM When Franklin was a puppy, my next door neighbor warmed me about the Hawks swooping down and getting him. I always thought she was being a tad too worried. 22423. arkymalarky - 3/15/2002 5:28:39 PM Ooooh, that's cold. 22424. arkymalarky - 3/15/2002 5:29:27 PM The first comment was to Erin, which I hope was clear. 22425. Erin R. - 3/15/2002 5:32:04 PM Well, it would have to be a pretty large eagle to make away with a 40-lb. dog. 22426. glendajean - 3/15/2002 5:32:15 PM Parrots can live to 70. 22427. concerned - 3/15/2002 5:40:18 PM Re. 22415 - 22428. arkymalarky - 3/15/2002 5:41:17 PM I guess the woman must have known the life expectancy of parrots and was aware if she didn't concoct something it would outlast her. Of course it didn't matter after her story didn't fly (so to speak). 22429. concerned - 3/15/2002 5:41:52 PM Re. 22415 - 22430. bubbaette - 3/15/2002 7:25:05 PM I've seen eagles in the Northern Neck and my gardening friend has seen one out at her place in Powhatan. Maybe it's time for us to take Jenny for a drive. 22431. concerned - 3/15/2002 7:55:11 PM I've seen hawks riding the air currents directly over my property. Time not to let the cat out. 22432. arkymalarky - 3/15/2002 7:58:57 PM We've got coyotes, eagles (in the bottoms, according to our neighbor), bears, hawks, snakes, black widows, and I don't know what all else, and nothing's ever bothered our pets. 22433. concerned - 3/15/2002 8:04:33 PM I'm looking forward to arky soon carving something into a tree on the order of: 22434. arkymalarky - 3/15/2002 8:19:30 PM Hahaha. Bob's greatX4 granddad already grabbed that story. Supposedly he rode into Arkansas on a bear. I find that highly unlikely. ;-) 22435. Julius Caesar - 3/16/2002 8:23:27 AM Our Modern Medea 22436. arkymalarky - 3/16/2002 8:34:57 AM I agree. The interest in the Yates case was not just the murders, but her mental illness, which no one disputed. But a man in AR with paranoid schizophrenia picked up his son from school and killed him and then killed himself after having gone off his medication. It received a day or two of attention while they were missing and right after they were found, but that was it. 22437. Julius Caesar - 3/16/2002 8:54:55 AM A mother killing her own children is regarded as decidedly more unspeakable than a man killing his own children, which is regarded as merely horrendous. If horrendous can be topped, a mother killing her own kids does it. 22438. Julius Caesar - 3/16/2002 9:01:30 AM 22439. arkymalarky - 3/16/2002 9:16:36 AM I think you're overplaying (and overestimating the vision of the press on such issues) the female angle. I can relate a number of local and statewide stories of mothers who killed their children that didn't get much press. A nurse in AR killed her two kids in a similar fashion for very similarly stated reasons, but I don't recall it getting national attention. Part of it is what the press decides to latch onto as a story, which seems to bear little to no relation to its wider relevance to the general public. 22440. arkymalarky - 3/16/2002 9:17:44 AM I don't pay any attention to NOW and never have. To me it's like paying attention to what PETA has to say. 22441. Julius Caesar - 3/16/2002 9:26:21 AM I've no doubt Yates is mentally ill in some form or fashion. 22442. robertjayb - 3/16/2002 12:21:11 PM Debunking tales of the Auld Sod... 22443. robertjayb - 3/16/2002 12:49:46 PM Offered as a public service of Geezers, Inc. 22444. arkymalarky - 3/16/2002 12:56:08 PM I believe that. 22445. robertjayb - 3/18/2002 1:56:27 PM Well, he didn't complain... 22446. robertjayb - 3/18/2002 2:21:45 PM Parsiminous Pints Prohibited... 22447. robertjayb - 3/19/2002 12:52:23 PM Stand right there, dear, and don't worry about a thing... 22448. robertjayb - 3/19/2002 9:22:42 PM Sorry fellow, you'll just have to hop it... 22449. jexster - 3/20/2002 8:53:12 PM A blind monkey could throw darts and predict jury verdicts about as well or maybe better than most lawyers. 22450. jexster - 3/20/2002 8:56:31 PM Robt you Texans are barbaric 22451. jexster - 3/20/2002 8:57:07 PM You might look for Osama in Midland. 22452. CalGal - 3/21/2002 10:57:44 AM Don't like the results? Ignore the study 22453. robertjayb - 3/21/2002 12:41:32 PM Since most of them are running from the law, it's no wonder they're in a hurry. 22454. robertjayb - 3/21/2002 12:42:16 PM joke. bad joke. 22455. CalGal - 3/21/2002 1:03:39 PM I laughed. 22456. rubberducky - 3/21/2002 1:17:35 PM as did i. 22457. robertjayb - 3/21/2002 4:02:32 PM Garrison Keillor had a hilarious sendup of drivetime talk radio on the most recent Prairie Home Companion. Go here, Curly Bob and Steverino, and scroll down to the History of Broadcasting script (don't ask) link. (RealPlayer, 14-minutes). 22458. judithathome - 3/21/2002 5:07:35 PM Guilty on all counts in the Dog Mauling case in California. 22459. judithathome - 3/21/2002 5:09:41 PM 22460. Cellar Door - 3/21/2002 5:29:07 PM I am SO pleased! 22461. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 5:37:50 PM Solid ineffective assistance of counsel, though. That one lawyer is crazy. 22462. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 5:39:44 PM Her lawyer, Nedra Ruiz, contributed to the courtroom drama by crawling on the floor, kicking the jury box and crying during her opening statement. In closing arguments, she accused prosecutors of trying to "curry favor with the homosexual and gay folks." 22463. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 5:44:31 PM "What is the prosecution's excuse for keeping this evidence from you?" Ruiz asked. "Maybe he wants to curry favor with the homosexual and gay folks who are picketing ... and demanding justice for Diane Whipple." 22464. judithathome - 3/21/2002 5:48:47 PM So do you think this will be overturned on appeal? 22465. Cellar Door - 3/21/2002 6:02:22 PM I'd be very surprised if it was. 22466. Ms. No - 3/21/2002 6:03:33 PM Jules, 22467. judithathome - 3/21/2002 6:07:57 PM I can't believe that woman is only 46! 22468. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 6:11:35 PM Grandstanding can work, but Ruiz was incompetent. It was her first murder trial. She's bats. Worse, there was intellectual footing to persuade, rather than put on a freak show. The evidence was strong for the prosecution, but the hurdle of attributing the actions of an animal to its owner is not miniscule. 22469. judithathome - 3/21/2002 6:16:45 PM It was the writhing on the floor and her weeping that did it for me...what a loon! 22470. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 6:17:20 PM Knoller repeatedly said she couldn't remember what she had told the grand jury, and that she was suffering from memory loss since the death because she was so traumatized. 22471. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 6:21:12 PM Noel also explained a letter he wrote to prosecutors that suggested that the attack may have been triggered because Whipple could have been wearing a pheromone-based perfume or might have been a steroid user. 22472. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 6:22:57 PM "Take your seat now," the judge told attorney Nedra Ruiz, "and (do) not get up 22473. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 6:25:14 PM Ha ha ha - Noel wanted to fire one of his attorneys while Knoller was sticking with Nedra! 22474. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 6:26:41 PM Alexander Cockburn - Killer Dog, Weird Couple 22475. CalGal - 3/21/2002 6:28:17 PM The whole case gave me the creeps. 22476. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 6:31:57 PM But if they get painted as dog fuckers all bets are off. The prosecutors are similarly eager to get dog perv innuendoes in front of the jury. James Hammer, from the DA's office, argued for admission of sex-related materials into the trial last week, and though he didn't directly level charges of bestiality, he argued that "any evidence, if it exists, regarding any inappropriate sexual conduct by the dogs" would be relevant and should not be excluded." Then he rolled out the magnificently melodramatic assertion that "They blurred the boundaries between dogs and humans, with fatal consequences." 22477. Julius Caesar - 3/21/2002 6:32:21 PM On that note of dog-boning, adios. 22478. Cellar Door - 3/21/2002 6:32:33 PM "Frankly, I've never heard of anything so incompetent in closing as her remarks on gays." 22479. Ms. No - 3/21/2002 6:58:27 PM Just in case you wanted to see Presa Canarios 22480. jexster - 3/21/2002 7:03:17 PM concerned has property? 22481. jexster - 3/21/2002 7:04:31 PM I live in the heart of SF and we have raccoons, hawks, big rats, seagulls..not impressed with kuntry folk roun here 22482. jexster - 3/21/2002 7:06:05 PM Nedra Ruiz, JC, what a mess! 22483. jexster - 3/21/2002 7:08:57 PM Nedra, who is facing a sanctions hearing for trial conduct, accused the prosecution of hiding evidence because of pressure from the gay community (that the state had stipulated for admission), then walked out to the news conference and accused Judge Warren of bowing to gay pressure too.... 22484. jexster - 3/21/2002 7:13:40 PM Sentencing May 10....hehehe....in SF...hehehe 22485. jexster - 3/21/2002 9:18:33 PM A criminal proc. class at USF watched the trial. The professor was quite emphatic that he thought the 2d murder verdict was Nedra's fault. 22486. wonkers2 - 3/21/2002 10:35:57 PM I can guess what they mean when they call a Presa Canario "very protective." Sounds like a bit of a euphemism to me. 22487. Absensia - 3/21/2002 10:46:51 PM Ms. No, one of them is 140 lbs? Egods...and what big teeth they have. I think I shall have to pass. 22488. concerned - 3/22/2002 12:15:36 AM An out of control neighbor's mastiff/presa canario type dog running loose threatened me last weekend as I jogged on an access easement in front of their property. I'm about to send them a letter demanding that they keep the dog chained or fenced. They also let a German Shepherd, Doberman Pinscher and collie run loose, but I have no problems with them. 22489. concerned - 3/22/2002 12:16:11 AM The dog ignored both its owners yelling at it to leave me. 22490. concerned - 3/22/2002 12:18:55 AM Warmer temperatures a natural phenomenon, new study indicates 22491. concerned - 3/22/2002 12:21:30 AM Mr. Cook said the study found that, based on the growth of rings in the trunks of trees that lived hundreds of years ago, the temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period were about equal to the warming trend that started in the 20th century. 22492. Cellar Door - 3/22/2002 12:22:29 AM I would alert the authorities about those neighbors and their dogs, connie. 22493. concerned - 3/22/2002 12:26:14 AM Re. 22489 - 22494. concerned - 3/22/2002 12:35:54 AM Re. 22492 - 22495. concerned - 3/22/2002 12:38:35 AM Plus, I'm seriously considering packing a fucking big knife when I run next time. This has got me out of sorts. 22496. concerned - 3/22/2002 12:41:39 AM Or even a gun, but I don't own one. 22497. jexster - 3/22/2002 3:12:53 AM An out of control neighbor's mastiff/presa canario type dog running loose threatened me last weekend as I jogged on an access easement in front of their property. 22498. bubbaette - 3/22/2002 8:48:41 AM I would be concerned about them having 3 or more large agressive dogs, even if a presa were not one of the breeds. Three dogs makes a pack. 22499. joezan - 3/22/2002 9:23:15 AM Just heard a story on NPR about a rash of beatings over several months in Charlottesville on or near the college campus. 22500. concerned - 3/22/2002 10:15:53 AM Re. 22497 - 22501. concerned - 3/22/2002 10:19:57 AM Re. 22498 - 22502. robertjayb - 3/22/2002 10:36:45 AM Pepper spray, concerned. What you need is pepper spray. Besides warding off dogs, it could be useful as protection against Jehovah's Witnesses and marauding liberals. 22503. PelleNilsson - 3/22/2002 12:32:59 PM In a body-blow to traditional values Lloyd's List, published since 1734, has decided to refer to ships as "it" rather than "she". But the Royal Navy won't go along "Lloyd's List is at liberty to do what they like", a spokesman said, "but everybody seems to think it's a load of nonsense". 22504. robertjayb - 3/22/2002 12:43:17 PM It's creeping Femunism is what it is. 22505. robertjayb - 3/22/2002 1:06:10 PM 22506. robertjayb - 3/22/2002 2:02:51 PM Harris County jail psychiatrists speak of Andrea Yates... 22507. rubberducky - 3/22/2002 3:31:44 PM the USPS gets its 3 cents 22508. Cellar Door - 3/24/2002 1:33:19 PM MAJOR BREAKING NEWS: BIN LADIN CAPTURED IN IOWA K-MART! 22509. robertjayb - 3/24/2002 1:40:26 PM News from the backyard: 22510. robertjayb - 3/24/2002 1:47:14 PM Poor bastard done been setup again: 22511. robertjayb - 3/25/2002 5:09:36 PM Enron women may bare all... 22512. betty - 3/25/2002 5:27:00 PM 22505 22513. wonkers2 - 3/25/2002 5:27:34 PM Barry was probably eating (short for ingesting) a powdered donut! 22514. robertjayb - 3/25/2002 6:22:26 PM Pooch grabbed by eagle doing well after surgery... 22515. joezan - 3/25/2002 8:20:33 PM The bird carried Ava about 300 feet before dropping her. 22516. concerned - 3/26/2002 1:05:27 PM Latest about the dog situation: I sent a letter to my neighbor and he came over, mentioned that the dog in question belonged to a friend who visited occasionally, and that she would be kept chained henceforth, partly since he said that she was generally starting to act like a 'bitch'. When I asked what breed she was, he described her as an 'English Mastiff', which constitutes a major part of a Presa Canario's lineage, btw. 22517. robertjayb - 3/26/2002 1:15:36 PM Me...I'd rather be suspected of murder... 22518. robertjayb - 3/26/2002 2:24:45 PM More dog stuff...(and further evidence of too many Ph.D.s) 22519. Indiana Jones - 3/26/2002 5:05:46 PM Re 22517: Wasn't that a Love, American Style plot? I think Arte Johnson was in it. 22520. CalGal - 3/26/2002 7:50:30 PM Retired sheriff's deputy kills four children and himself in California 22521. robertjayb - 3/26/2002 8:19:34 PM The nutter must have thought, if he thought at all, that the ex-wife would suffer more as a survivor than if he offed her along with the children. 22522. joezan - 3/26/2002 8:22:37 PM Delayed Male Post Partum Depression - happens all the time. 22523. CalGal - 3/26/2002 8:23:31 PM that the ex-wife would suffer more as a survivor than if he offed her along with the children 22524. concerned - 3/26/2002 10:01:53 PM Guess we won't be seeing anybody wanting the wife sterilized, even though she hooked up with such a loser. 22525. concerned - 3/26/2002 10:45:55 PM From the AP: 22526. concerned - 3/26/2002 10:46:17 PM That unexpected reaction is an example of what the egg-shell skull rule is meant to cover. The rule says if a court decides a wrongful act has occurred, the defendant is responsible for the damage caused by the act, even if the damage is greater than normally expected. 22527. wonkers2 - 3/26/2002 10:53:18 PM Someone can sue over almost anything. That doesn't mean she will collect. Reason will prevail. 22528. concerned - 3/27/2002 12:12:39 AM 22529. concerned - 3/27/2002 12:27:39 AM So, are we going to see 'Pedophilia Pride' marches soon? In a way we already are, since they're always welcome in Gay Pride marches. 22530. concerned - 3/27/2002 12:38:34 AM 22531. wonkers2 - 3/27/2002 7:54:17 AM "Pedophiles are always welcome in Gay Pride marches." 22532. wonkers2 - 3/27/2002 7:57:54 AM The Mote needs a truth squad to check your crap before posting. You have broken all records for slimy, dishonest vitriol. Have you no shame? 22533. CalGal - 3/26/2002 5:06:14 PM Turns out only one of the kids in Merced were related to the guy. The other three were from a first marriage. 22534. concerned - 3/27/2002 12:42:31 PM Re. 22532 - 22535. concerned - 3/27/2002 12:42:48 PM Re. 22532 - 22536. betty - 3/27/2002 1:31:29 PM concerned, 22537. bubbaette - 3/27/2002 1:42:33 PM Somebody might think Connie is a fucking idiot?? Tell me you jest!! Everybody knows that every random spew coming from Connies keyboard is as right as rain and can be taken to the bank! 22538. hollyw - 3/27/2002 1:57:19 PM I wonder how the Andrea Yates story would've played if she had killed herself as well as those kids. 22539. CalGal - 3/27/2002 2:04:29 PM Yes, part of the horror was her hanging about to tell the hubby. 22540. betty - 3/27/2002 2:07:17 PM bubb, 22541. hollyw - 3/27/2002 2:17:00 PM Yes, part of the horror was her hanging about to tell the hubby. 22542. concerned - 3/27/2002 2:39:09 PM Re. 22536 - 22543. concerned - 3/27/2002 2:42:40 PM Yes. Betty, bubbaette and their soccer mom ilk are already mentally preparing themselves for the time when their little ones are picked up after school by strangers who will engage in 'consensual' sex with them, with their permission, if not outright approval. 22544. concerned - 3/27/2002 2:45:01 PM and just to point out what a slimy little toad you are, your big concern is boys being abused by "homosexual men" 22545. concerned - 3/27/2002 2:46:51 PM Until I see the gay community come out en masse against adult sex with children of any sort, their overlooking the ones who engage in such activities define their true attitude. 22546. CalGal - 3/27/2002 2:52:09 PM To a certain extent, I agree with Concerned. There is a great deal of hesitation in the gay community as a whole in condemning any sexual practice as deviant or criminal. Their thinking seems to be that you can't condemn some sexual practices if you're trying to get yours accepted. 22547. concerned - 3/27/2002 2:52:45 PM I post a cite backing up my point, Betty comes back with a weak second hand anecdote and a shit load of personal abuse. 22548. Snowowl - 3/27/2002 3:07:32 PM What is your point, concerned? I didn't see anything in the article you posted that suggested that either the "left" or the gay community are advocating lowering the age of consent. 22549. concerned - 3/27/2002 3:11:59 PM Ok, I extrapolated there. But, my point is that there is a significant and growing advocacy group for 'intergenerational sex' trying to legitimize their viewpoint by using the ruse of 'progressive ideology'. 22550. betty - 3/27/2002 3:24:41 PM wadever. 22551. bubbaette - 3/27/2002 3:27:08 PM Concerned 22552. concerned - 3/27/2002 3:37:09 PM bubbaette - 22553. betty - 3/27/2002 4:15:26 PM concerned, 22554. Jonesatlaw - 3/27/2002 4:39:52 PM Andrea Yates and the insanity defense- opinion by law professor pointing out difficulties her case illuminates in the law. [Caveat, I think she is wrong in asserting that Yates wandering minister buddy is the source of her delusion] Yates verdict 22555. CalGal - 3/27/2002 4:53:28 PM Jones, 22556. wonkers2 - 3/27/2002 6:32:17 PM Pedophiles are sick but not psychotic like Andrea Yates. I think a valid distinction can be made. And I agree that the bar should be pretty high on excusing crimes for mental illness. We shouldn't be too quick to abandon the expectation that people be held responsible for their actions, if not their inclinations. Pedophiles should be locked up. Pedophiles are apparently not very curable so they should be removed from society, either in a prison or mental hospital for the criminally insane. Excusing criminal acts on the basis that the individual couldn't resist committing the act, aside from clear psychosis, is not a workable approach for the problem, even if in theory they shouldn't be held responsible for acts they were incapable of resisting. We simply have to teach children from the beginning and adults that they will be held responsible for their actions. 22557. arkymalarky - 3/27/2002 8:09:02 PM The same argument wrt mental illness applies to a man with psychosis. If you can't tell the difference between statements of fact about psychotic mental illness and handwringing then you're really too stupid to post on the subject. 22558. CalGal - 3/27/2002 8:25:36 PM And the Arky watch continues....952 days since the last time she posted an on-point rebuttal. 22559. arkymalarky - 3/27/2002 8:44:38 PM It was directly on point--as much as a reply can be with your infamously moving targets. Why not either address the difference between someone who's diagnosed mentally ill with psychotic delusions and someone who is a cold-blooded killer or cease the incessant and repetitive pontifications about subjects over which you are so obviously uninformed, obsessively trying to cram you square peg of a male/female angle into every possible topic? 22560. Cellar Door - 3/27/2002 9:10:02 PM "But I have seen more than one gay man speak approvingly about sex between men and young boys. Larry Kramer comes to mind, and I'm a huge fan of his generally." 22561. Cellar Door - 3/27/2002 9:13:10 PM This notion of goading "The Gay Community" to do something about pedophilia is a con. The Cathloc Church has a problem with pedophile priests. That's been obvious since the dawn of time. 22562. Cellar Door - 3/27/2002 9:16:27 PM Yesterday Archbishop Roger Mahoney declared that knew of pedophile priests but wasn't going to name them to "spare the victims." 22563. betty - 3/27/2002 9:27:54 PM CD, 22564. Cellar Door - 3/27/2002 9:37:13 PM I'll give her 24 hours to come up with something. I think she's thinking of Allen Ginsberg. 22565. hollyw - 3/27/2002 10:17:53 PM I don't understand why people think that Yates' mental illness excuses her somehow, particularly in view of her history. She wasn't suddenly blindsided, she had been sick on and off for many years. She had been hospitalized, what, four times? She'd been told to not have any more babies. 22566. arkymalarky - 3/27/2002 10:31:40 PM I don't think Yates should be free, ever. The life term was fine with me, but not because I believe she wasn't mentally ill. In fact, for the reasons you state--in short, as I see it, neither she nor anyone around her seemed capable of containing her illness to safe levels in a free environment--there seems no question she should be permanently put away. 22567. robertjayb - 3/27/2002 11:48:14 PM After Julia, probably not a big deal... 22568. robertjayb - 3/27/2002 11:56:09 PM Letters tell why Merced man killed children... 22569. concerned - 3/28/2002 1:17:45 AM "...the disagreement is with your desire to pin it on gay people. 22570. concerned - 3/28/2002 2:14:18 AM IOW, it's not what some of them say in private, it's what they officially say about it in public, and criticism from the gay community of 'intergenerational sex' is notably lacking. 22571. Snowowl - 3/28/2002 5:06:08 AM Has your local neighbourhood come out in public and criticised 'intergenerational sex', concerned? 22572. betty - 3/28/2002 9:45:38 AM concerned, 22573. hollyw - 3/28/2002 10:18:27 AM Don't be silly, people. Concerned has a bit of a point. It's been a long time since I've been to a gay pride parade, but the last I knew, the organizers couldn't quite bring themselves to kick NAMBLA out, at least in New York. If other people drove the NAMBLA members away is beside the point--the organizers allowed them to march. 22574. concerned - 3/28/2002 10:26:20 AM IAC, my concern is about advocates of 'intergenerational sex', not gays specifically, so I don't see any point in becoming hung up on any one part of this issue. But you know what they say about enablers and slippery slopes. 22575. CalGal - 3/28/2002 10:26:46 AM Cellar, 22576. CalGal - 3/28/2002 10:30:03 AM Here's the quote I remember reading. 22577. CalGal - 3/28/2002 10:33:12 AM Holly's point about NAMBLA is the one I was making earlier. That there was ever a discussion about whether or not to have NAMBLA in the Gay Parades, that there were still gay people willing to participate in a parade that had NAMBLA attendees, is the sort of "ambiguity" about sexual practices that strikes most people as extremely unambiguous. 22578. wonkers2 - 3/28/2002 10:34:01 AM The country isn't in danger of a great groundswell of support for intergenerational sex, especially after all the recent publicity about child abusing priests. 22579. betty - 3/28/2002 11:01:39 AM CalGal, 22580. CalGal - 3/28/2002 11:15:43 AM Betty, 22581. glendajean - 3/28/2002 11:35:20 AM All of the gay organizations I've been around are consistent in their condemnation of NAMBLA and sex with children. 22582. glendajean - 3/28/2002 11:39:20 AM Many of our gay organizations, btw, have women in leadership, something the Catholic Church could use more of. If women priests and bishops were around, I don't think you would have had the cover-up and the putting of pedophiles back into parishes. 22583. CalGal - 3/28/2002 11:50:47 AM GJ--if you read back, you'll see that I mentioned HRC. I agree that they are completely unambiguous about it. 22584. CalGal - 3/28/2002 11:54:02 AM As a gay man who has been out for a while, I don't come across other gay people who tolerate sex with children. 22585. concerned - 3/28/2002 11:56:57 AM Well, I commend the attitude that glendajean describes in 22581, and I have little doubt that the majority of gay people feel similarly. 22586. hollyw - 3/28/2002 12:00:22 PM Fact. NAMBLA has marched in gay pride parades. That's all. 22587. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 12:02:21 PM 22588. hollyw - 3/28/2002 12:03:14 PM Cross-post. I'm just repeating you all, sorry! 22589. Jonesatlaw - 3/28/2002 12:05:50 PM Cal- we've been over this, and so I don't want to belabor what's been said already. 22590. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 12:05:52 PM It deosn't seem that anyone is saying that acceptance of NAMBLA is currency in the gay community. But much as certain parishes reflexively rally round Father Molestor, others get jumpy when the less-than-vigilant approach to pedophilia in the gay community is addressed. 22591. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 12:18:35 PM The First Article - 1996's Pedophilia Chic 22592. glendajean - 3/28/2002 12:43:54 PM Gosh, a married man was convicted this week in Indianapolis of having sex with his six month old child and thus murdering the baby. He claimed it was an accident. He was bouncing the kid on his lap and it just happened. 22593. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 12:45:27 PM I just linked a couple of interesting articles. I'm clean. 22594. CalGal - 3/28/2002 12:49:33 PM GJ, there is a difference between not denouncing and actively supporting. The fact is that some gay activists are on record as saying that sex being child and adults is sometimes sought by the kids, or that it's okay if the kid consents, is a problem. There are, as I said, straight people who make the same sort of comments and if any of them were activists in any organization, I have no doubt they'd be tossed out. 22595. glendajean - 3/28/2002 1:02:21 PM Harry Hays was kicked out of the Mattachine Society shortly after he founded it in the 50s. As far as I know, he has been involved in the Radical Fairies. I didn't know that he was picked as a grand marshall for a parade, but in almost every interview or story about him that I have read over the past 20 years, he talks about being estranged from mainstream gay groups. He hates the mainstream. 22596. wonkers2 - 3/28/2002 1:42:21 PM Interesting article (Pedophilia Chic). I agree with the apparent viewpoint of the author. Calvin Klein and much of the fashion industry aren't among the finest features of Western culture. He and the rest described in the article are sickos. 22597. betty - 3/28/2002 1:46:17 PM glenda, 22598. CalGal - 3/28/2002 1:59:39 PM In both cases, the men have lived their lives angry and separated from gay organizations. 22599. glendajean - 3/28/2002 1:59:40 PM betty, I know very little of Radical Faries. I doubt if there is an organized membership -- more likely, they're a loosely associated group (or various groups in different regions). I got the feeling that they are a combination of in your face/peace and love kind kind of people. They challenged gender stereotypes, played pranks. Seems like I first heard about them back in the 80s. Perhaps somebody else can provide more info. 22600. glendajean - 3/28/2002 2:42:20 PM As more gay people come out of the closet, the less a community exists, the less any one individual or organization speaks for gay people. Is Andrew Sullivan the voice of gay people? Log Cabin Republicans? Stonewall Democrats? HRC? NGLT? Or that crazy guy from San Francisco, Michael Petrellis? No. They are voices. Look at the gay people in the Mote: Jexster, Cellar, me, Rubberducky, Ronski. I am not sure that any of us match up very closely in our opinions. 22601. glendajean - 3/28/2002 2:42:44 PM The history of gay life in America is mostly a 20th century story. And for a long time it was the story of 3 cities: New York, San Francisco and to some extent, LA. That changed over the past 20 years, particularly the relevance of the gay communities in San Francisco and New York. They just aren't as significant as they used to be, and at one time, they seemed to be the only gay places in America. 22602. thoughtful - 3/28/2002 3:19:40 PM Haven't been around to know if this had been posted about Tx prosecutors examining whether to charge Rusty Yates. 22603. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 3:25:55 PM CG you quote from Larry Kramer in post #22576 does not support your claim that he favors pedophilia. 22604. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 3:33:33 PM Pete Townesend. Sweet. 22605. betty - 3/28/2002 3:39:29 PM I'm just wondering where we draw the child/minor/too young to consent line? 22606. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 3:42:52 PM RICO and The Catholic Church 22607. CalGal - 3/28/2002 3:43:38 PM I didn't make the claim that he supports pedophilia, so you apparently don't know how to read. 22608. glendajean - 3/28/2002 3:52:06 PM When lax denunciation of pedophilia was pointed out to the gay community, there were those who tried to explain, and in that process, tacitly excused. 22609. glendajean - 3/28/2002 3:54:39 PM In JC's argument, the formula is: 22610. glendajean - 3/28/2002 3:56:31 PM I apologize for the ALL-CAPS. I didn't intend for that to look like I was screaming at you. I was not. 22611. CalGal - 3/28/2002 3:59:04 PM As if it is a natural state to molest children if a woman is too long unavailable. 22612. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:00:33 PM glenda 22613. CalGal - 3/28/2002 4:00:37 PM GJ, 22614. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:04:26 PM glenda 22615. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:11:18 PM "And I don't feel like arguing about this anymore; I've stated my position." 22616. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:14:19 PM Cellar 22617. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:14:35 PM "I have reviewed my comments on this matter with care, and I can only attribute the waywardness of your 22609 to emotion." 22618. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:16:01 PM I don't know about Mahoney. 22619. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:18:47 PM "Does the fact that these men are prohibited from having regular sexual relations with an adult make them more likely to molest a child?" 22620. CalGal - 3/28/2002 4:21:54 PM There's really no evidence of that. Men in prison have sex with each other, sometimes forcibly, because of no access to women. Why wouldn't priests be more likely to have sex with other men (even if straight) or have affairs with women, or even rape women? All three would be more likely progressions than pedophilia. 22621. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:23:52 PM Cellar 22622. glendajean - 3/28/2002 4:25:45 PM Do you believe having celibacy rules attracts child molestors? 22623. glendajean - 3/28/2002 4:26:04 PM Allow women in the priesthood, and there will be a change in the club. Women aren't virtuous, men bad. They're just different enough. And frankly, I still think that fathers and mothers (small caps) of children will respond differently to hiding chld molesters. 22624. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:26:15 PM I'm glad you agree with me. Mahoney annouced just yesterday that he knows of 12 SEPARATE CASES of Priests who have molested children, but he is not going to name names in order to "spare the victims." 22625. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:26:32 PM I agree with Cal, and I think your view is suspect, Cellar. It blurs the deviant with the natural and contains a whiff of excuse, something I can't countenance, priest or no. 22626. betty - 3/28/2002 4:27:04 PM JC, 22627. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:29:53 PM "Men in prison have sex with each other, sometimes forcibly, because of no access to women. Why wouldn't priests be more likely to have sex with other men (even if straight) or have affairs with women, or even rape women? All three would be more likely progressions than pedophilia." 22628. glendajean - 3/28/2002 4:29:54 PM JC -- in the very next post, I apologized for the all caps. I guess you didn't see it. 22629. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:31:58 PM "I really don't know that celibacy turns a perfectly well adjusted individual into a sexual predator" 22630. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:32:36 PM toys 22631. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:32:58 PM toys 22632. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:33:15 PM Cellar 22633. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:35:07 PM The same logic doesn't apply, Julius. There's no reason for any gay or lesbian invidual in everyday society to accept "moral" condemnation. It's quite another thing if you're in the church. 22634. betty - 3/28/2002 4:36:21 PM CD, 22635. CalGal - 3/28/2002 4:36:33 PM GJ and Cellar, you seem to be mixing and matching. 22636. glendajean - 3/28/2002 4:38:29 PM JC -- you could use it, and see if it is true. Are homosexuals molesting children at higher rates than other groups of people? 22637. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:38:43 PM Cellar 22638. glendajean - 3/28/2002 4:39:40 PM I said, Cal, 22639. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:39:53 PM glenda 22640. glendajean - 3/28/2002 4:44:55 PM JC -- I was referring to your post #22632 where you wrote In fact, using the same logic, I could argue that .... 22641. CalGal - 3/28/2002 4:47:33 PM GJ, 22642. Jonesatlaw - 3/28/2002 4:48:12 PM Before Concerned becomes concerned about me, I hereby announce on behalf of all hetrosexuals that we condem pedophilia, nay, we even condemn those things that feed the disorder. For example, airbrushed and heavily made up 12 year olds on fashion magazine covers, most Calvin Klein ads of the last ten years, the Ramseys and their ilk, Barbie, Lolita, Britany Spears, the Olsen twins etc. Okay? 22643. Jonesatlaw - 3/28/2002 4:49:27 PM Oh, I forgot, (sorry Julius) women of legal age dressed as Catholic schoolgirls on porn sites, and MTV. 22644. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:50:15 PM Do you think child molestation is occurring at the same rates among married clergy in the United States as Catholic priests? 22645. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:50:55 PM "Yet, I don't attribute the societal denunciation to pedophilia (i.e., "Society made me do it") and more than I accept celibacy to pedophilia ("If only I could nail adults, I'd lay off the kiddies")." 22646. robertjayb - 3/28/2002 4:51:04 PM The scourge of celibacy...Gary Wills in The Boston Globe 22647. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 4:53:27 PM Let me clear, glenda. I think your using the comparison of married clergy to Catholic celibate clergy vis-a-vis rates of pedophilia is every bit as illegitimate as my using the comparison of homosexual priests and heterosexual priests vis-a-vis rates of pedophilia. 22648. hollyw - 3/28/2002 4:53:59 PM Because men in prison aren't in positions of authority Deemed By God. Kids are FORCED to look up to priests as Idealized beings, not mere men. When you have someone psychologically trapped like this -- in your thrall -- it's only a short step to raping them. 22649. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:55:31 PM Allowing priests to marry and getting rid of celibacy as a requirement for the priesthood are long-term partial solutions to the problem. 22650. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 4:57:51 PM "Are you saying that it's the entire construct of priesthood that can make priests sick?" 22651. Erin R. - 3/28/2002 5:00:35 PM Abolishing celibacy and allowing women priests would expand the pool of applicants, allowing the church to be more selective in choosing candidates. 22652. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 5:06:25 PM Now, that argument flows. 22653. Jonesatlaw - 3/28/2002 5:07:18 PM News flash- the Roman Catholic Church already has married priests. Eastern Rite Churches in full communion with Rome have been allowed to continue the practice of both married and celibate clergy, and former Episcopal priests have joined the Roman Catholic Church, have been recognized as priests and retained their wives. There is NOTHING in Catholic dogma that requires a celibate priesthood. There is a tradition that the present Pontiff has resolutely upheld for celibacy, but there would be no incosistency with removing the tradition. 22654. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 5:08:04 PM 22655. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 5:10:39 PM Cellar 22656. CalGal - 3/28/2002 5:10:46 PM Erin, 22657. Julius Caesar - 3/28/2002 5:11:32 PM To all. 22658. Erin R. - 3/28/2002 5:16:06 PM I don't see how having women in the priesthood would contribute to having fewer pedophiles, except perhaps as a result of the scenario I proposed above. 22659. thoughtful - 3/28/2002 5:17:46 PM Jones, actually, my understanding was that celibacy means no marriage vs. the nuns who take a vow of chastity which means no sex since they actually "marry" Christ....they even wear a wedding ring. Based on my limited understanding of events, the "no marriage" came out of a desire of the church to not be required to lose assets to legitimate heirs. It was not uncommon for even popes back then to have many illegitimate children. 22660. CalGal - 3/28/2002 5:20:21 PM Furthermore, aren't there many, many cases of men molesting children who are relatives, under the noses of mothers, aunts, grandmothers, etc.? 22661. hollyw - 3/28/2002 5:26:09 PM Interesting article. 22662. CalGal - 3/28/2002 5:31:39 PM I think he was arguing for nurtured. 22663. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 5:35:56 PM I was arguing for nuturing. 22664. Erin R. - 3/28/2002 5:36:26 PM I think a certain type of individual might be attracted to the celibate lifestyle. 22665. CalGal - 3/28/2002 5:38:29 PM Cellar, I was referring to the Wills article. Although I agree that you are arguing for nurturing as well. 22666. thoughtful - 3/28/2002 6:32:31 PM Cellar, There are no gay priests. Only homosexuals. 22667. wonkers2 - 3/28/2002 6:46:51 PM US News and World Report Cover: 22668. Cellar Door - 3/28/2002 6:54:39 PM I can't speak for the "frequency" factor. And to my mind it's beside the point. The issue is the Church's rank unwillingness to recognize the problem of pedophile priests. 22669. wonkers2 - 3/28/2002 10:04:33 PM The Bishops were sucked in by some psychiatrists/psychologists/counselors on treating the pedophiles. 22670. jexster - 3/29/2002 12:59:13 AM SUMMARY: A 17-year-old Denver girl was viciously slashed Tuesday afternoon, and the word "dyke" was carved into her forearm with a razor. 22671. Cellar Door - 3/29/2002 9:29:03 AM The Bishops were looking to be suckered, wonkers. Their Number One Goal is to protect The Church and its image of Omnipotence and Perfection. 22672. Julius Caesar - 3/29/2002 10:07:29 AM Rod Dreher on Goodbye! Good Men 22673. Julius Caesar - 3/29/2002 10:11:31 AM How can you blame people for wondering if there's a connection between the outlaw homosexual culture of that seminary, and the outlaw homosexual culture that some 80 priests in Boston participated in? 22674. glendajean - 3/29/2002 11:02:21 AM Julius -- I have no idea what causes certain people, men mostly, to want to have sex with children. 22675. vw - 3/29/2002 11:13:44 AM but it is a very different thing to conclude that the enforced celibacy or the homosexuality is a causative factor in pedophilia. 22676. glendajean - 3/29/2002 11:16:15 AM The Garry Wills article linked above by Robert is an interesting discussion about the issue from a Catholic pundit. 22677. Julius Caesar - 3/29/2002 11:23:59 AM Toleration of what? 22678. glendajean - 3/29/2002 11:45:51 AM Tolerating people who break the rules. He wrote: 22679. Julius Caesar - 3/29/2002 11:49:06 AM Well, breaking a rule is one thing. Faux celibacy may well diminish respect for all rules within the Church. 22680. CalGal - 3/29/2002 11:53:47 AM Well, this leads back somewhat into our prior conversation about gays and the readiness of a small minority to excuse or justify pedophilia. 22681. bubbaette - 3/29/2002 1:17:09 PM I doubt if gays in the priesthood entered thinking "Hmm, where's a good place to meet lots of men and an easy living? I know, I'll be a priest!" More likely, they were denying sexuality altogether, knowing that it was greatly disapproved by the mainstream. The preisthood, instead, would be more likely seen as a place where all sexual urges were to be suppressed with the added benefit of general societal approval of NOT being interested in women sexually. 22682. Jonesatlaw - 3/29/2002 1:24:41 PM There are a great many entanglements here and we would be better of untangling them first before we address the real problem which I think Cellar hits on (before being led off by his general hostility to the Church). First, pedophilia is not directly related to homo or hetrosexuality or celibacy, since it cuts across each category. [technically, it can't cut across actual celibacy, but that's not who we are really talking about]. It is really those who cannot live with celibacy who are the problem. There are several possible solutions: 22683. Jonesatlaw - 3/29/2002 1:29:47 PM Elimination of celibacy as part of the priesthood in its entirety is not going to happen anytime in the near future, or perhaps ever. Doing nothing is not feasible, nor likely with the laity up in arms as it is now. Actual absolute celibacy is not likely since it flies in the face of human nature and failings. The best route seems to be the second, and I think that it may be the eventual outcome. 22684. Julius Caesar - 3/29/2002 1:30:23 PM Jones 22685. CalGal - 3/29/2002 1:35:36 PM More likely, they were denying sexuality altogether, knowing that it was greatly disapproved by the mainstream. 22686. betty - 3/29/2002 1:37:52 PM how about the Catholic Church gets back to the original St. Valentine's Day celebrations and require orgies for all Catholics on that day, a sexual sacrament. 22687. Jonesatlaw - 3/29/2002 1:44:18 PM Betty, you obviously haven't seen the folk in my parrish (shudder). 22688. Jonesatlaw - 3/29/2002 1:45:48 PM Even me, for that matter ;-) 22689. betty - 3/29/2002 1:52:23 PM jones, 22690. Jonesatlaw - 3/29/2002 1:57:27 PM Betty, it's the elderly widows in our parish that have put me off. The thought of all those walkers gettin in the way, and Depends flung everywhere with wild abandon gives me pause.... 22691. Jonesatlaw - 3/29/2002 1:59:55 PM Betty, I realize you are serious, and I am being rather flip. But aside from the fact that I think such a thing should come with a "go directly to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200" card, we bashful midwesterners took years to get over the "kiss of peace" handshakes. We'd just stand around looking shy and confused, really. 22692. betty - 3/29/2002 2:04:04 PM Oh please, swinging is all the rage in the MidWest! You can't fool me, I know what you fly-overs are up to! 22693. Jonesatlaw - 3/29/2002 2:19:56 PM Betty, a biblical foundation would require quite a few re-writes. 22694. betty - 3/29/2002 2:24:55 PM Oh please, I've taken a skim of that narrative mess, I actually know of a subgroup of the "lifestyle" that is christian and they claim that God never mandated monogamy. Now, I'm not a biblical scholar, nor do i wish to be, but i can easily see how anybody who wants to use that book for anything can. 22695. Cellar Door - 3/29/2002 2:30:37 PM WellI'm all for orgies, betty -- provided that sexual safety is a part of them.But what your post brings up is the fact that the Ctholic church, and many other legitimate denominations, simply usurped pagan holidays and made them their own. Jesus Christ was born sometime in July or August according to most historical accounts. But the church moved it to December to cash in on the Winter Solstice. 22696. betty - 3/29/2002 2:41:38 PM Cellar, 22697. hollyw - 3/29/2002 10:54:49 PM the pink blanky mildly Theist Christianity that pretends to be Protestantism in this country 22698. hollyw - 3/29/2002 10:55:41 PM Depends flung everywhere with wild abandon 22699. CalGal - 3/29/2002 10:57:36 PM Well, I thank you for the one, and I forgot to post appreciation for the Depends comment. Probably because I went ewwwwwww as I laughed. 22700. hollyw - 3/29/2002 11:02:46 PM I envisioned them slightly pee sodden, but nothing to really worry about. 22701. joezan - 3/29/2002 11:41:30 PM If you take away the celibacy requirement, what makes Catholicism measurably different from the rest of the pink blanky mildly Theist Christianity that pretends to be Protestantism in this country? 22702. hollyw - 3/29/2002 11:46:08 PM How they do the sacraments, mostly, right? And then there's the saints. And Mary, don't forget. Protestants aren't nearly so impressed by her. 22703. CalGal - 3/29/2002 11:51:42 PM Well, even taking into consideration the Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Anglicans, there's the Pope, for starters. 22704. joezan - 3/29/2002 11:55:21 PM I think it's regional, Holly. 22705. joezan - 3/30/2002 12:00:29 AM Cal: 22706. hollyw - 3/30/2002 12:01:44 AM Joe, 22707. CalGal - 3/30/2002 12:07:23 AM Joe, 22708. robertjayb - 3/30/2002 1:01:04 PM The Queen Mum is dead... 22709. Cellar Door - 3/30/2002 1:35:35 PM I love the fact that Adolph Hitler once called her "The most dangerous woman in Europe." 22710. CalGal - 3/30/2002 2:25:35 PM How can the death of an 101 year old woman be called a tragedy? She died peacefully with her daughter at her side. Lovely end to a very lovely life. 22711. CalGal - 3/30/2002 9:24:11 PM 22712. CalGal - 4/1/2002 2:52:24 PM Inside the District's Red Lights 22713. wonkers2 - 4/1/2002 4:36:10 PM Somebody told me recently that Siemens has an automated traffic light system that is used in Germany that monitors the traffic coming to an intersection from all four directions and adjusts the signal lights accordingly. No more sitting through a red light if nobody is coming. If this device were adopted here it would save an incredible amount of gasoline, not to speak of time. Instead we spend our taxpayers' money on cameras to catch people running red lights and reduce the duration of yellow lights in order to catch more. Of course, this is only for traffic safety, not revenue! Almost enough to turn Wonkers into a libertarian! 22714. robertjayb - 4/1/2002 4:36:22 PM Warning: NAUSEA ALERT! 22715. wonkers2 - 4/1/2002 4:38:54 PM Stephen Rubino is on a "mission from God!" 22716. Åse - 4/1/2002 5:10:14 PM Wonkers, I remeber when we visited Germany some 30 years ago or so that in some cities they had additional trafic lights that told you how fast you should go so you would hit the next green light. At some point we were following the signs (30 km, 40 km, what have you, flashing), whereas this other car ignored them and went whatever speed he or she felt like. And, of course, the other car had to break for red lights, whereas we could just continue driving. we always caught up with that car by the light. 22717. thoughtful - 4/1/2002 5:14:30 PM Ase, actually that technique of timed lights works quite well in New York City...having driven many times up 1st avenue or down 2nd making much better time than on the FDR drive. The thing is though, it gives you something else to watch besides cabs, especially empty ones, pedestrians, etc. The beauty is you can see far ahead to know when you are "losing it" by going too quickly as the red lights get closer or too slowly as they start turning yellow on you. Actually gets to be quite fun. 22718. ronski - 4/1/2002 5:41:48 PM wonkers, 22719. CalGal - 4/1/2002 5:47:10 PM I always thought a left-libertarian was someone who wanted legalized drugs. (g) 22720. ronski - 4/1/2002 5:52:04 PM And Hitler was proven right about the Queen Mum, from his perspective, that is. 22721. ronski - 4/1/2002 5:55:25 PM Cal, 22722. CalGal - 4/1/2002 6:18:28 PM I just meant that most people I know who self-describe as libertarians but otherwise don't pass the Dem smell test are usually making the "let me kill my own body my way" argument. Most libertarians come off as a Republican variant. (as indeed you do.) 22723. wonkers2 - 4/1/2002 6:36:23 PM The system described to me was a relatively new one developed by Siemens. It goes way beyond having fixed timing for the traffic lights. It continually adjusts the timing based on actual traffic conditions at any particular moment. For example, on my way home from work today I just missed a green light and I and about 10 other cars had to wait through the entire red cycle even though there was no car in sight from either direction on the cross street. I didn't time the red light, but I think it was close to a minute. That's 10 cars having to stop unnecessarily and sit there burning gasoline for a minute or so before crossing an absolutely empty intersection. Multiply that by all the cars and all the intersections where that occurs every day and it amounts to a lot of gasoline and a lot of time wasted and even a significant amount of unnecessary wear and tear on brakes, engines and transmissions. But instead our governments buy equipment to automatically issue tickets. 22724. judithathome - 4/1/2002 6:40:17 PM Oh but Wonkers, don't you know this country can't learn anything from other countries. We are #1, after all. 22725. wonkers2 - 4/1/2002 6:42:06 PM Right! Ashcroft would undoubtedly think I'm helping the enemy. 22726. CalGal - 4/2/2002 11:17:12 PM 22727. Cellar Door - 4/2/2002 11:25:14 PM Nice to see the cops doing their job for a change. 22728. concerned - 4/3/2002 12:20:55 AM Missing Jexster alert - has anybody seen this person? 22729. LadyChaos - 4/3/2002 10:03:13 AM More evidence that the conservative wing of the Supreme Court is on crack. 22730. Cellar Door - 4/3/2002 10:22:52 AM The Law is a game of Power. 22731. concerned - 4/3/2002 12:28:24 PM Orca: WH Set Me Up! 22732. Wombat - 4/3/2002 12:57:09 PM Orca Winfrey...good one, Concerned. 22733. concerned - 4/3/2002 5:46:29 PM 22734. Erinys - 4/4/2002 1:11:05 AM holy crapfhghghhghh! people eat that? 22735. Jonesatlaw - 4/4/2002 2:15:42 AM Cal-That's a truly scary sight. I'd bet that none or nearly none of those people would even think about such behavior if they were sitting in a room with the woman alone, but the crowd makes it somehow "okay" or "just fun" etc. Large excited and focused crowds seem to bring out primitive and sometimes pathological behavior in otherwise normal people, let alone those with less than desirable qualities. 22736. Erinys - 4/4/2002 2:27:59 AM You're kidding, of course. 22737. bubbaette - 4/4/2002 7:31:22 AM Erin 22738. rubberducky - 4/4/2002 11:10:06 AM that photo frisked me too! 22739. robertjayb - 4/4/2002 5:07:13 PM Pissed at spouse---drown the kids... 22740. wonkers2 - 4/4/2002 8:38:16 PM What could be more logical? 22741. OhioSTOPAS - 4/5/2002 6:16:15 AM Message # 22716: Here in Ohio some country highways have signals located several hundred yards ahead of stoplights. The signals come on several seconds before the stoplights, letting drivers know they will not make the light (at least not without speeding). It's a nice feature since if you know whether you will make the light or not, you don't have to gun it out of concern that you're not going to make the light. 22742. Shannon - 4/5/2002 7:47:21 AM We have signals like that too, Ohio. Seems like I've seen the ones that tell you what speed you have to go to catch the light too. But I can't remember where. 22743. OhioSTOPAS - 4/5/2002 8:20:58 AM Shannon, where do you live? 22744. Shannon - 4/5/2002 8:24:55 AM Louisiana. 22745. OhioSTOPAS - 4/5/2002 8:30:40 AM A great, unique state! My wife and I had a terrific visit to N'Awlins and surrounding areas a few years ago. 22746. PelleNilsson - 4/5/2002 10:58:51 AM The idea might have been borrowed from the railways. They have "pre-signals". 22747. CalGal - 4/5/2002 11:09:38 AM Much as I hate validating Cellar's media bias fantasies, I have news from that front. 22748. CalGal - 4/5/2002 11:10:09 AM Whoops--I meant to post this in Media. 22749. Ms. No - 4/5/2002 11:19:16 AM Un-fucking-believable. 22750. bubbaette - 4/5/2002 12:34:55 PM You Go Girl! 22751. judithathome - 4/5/2002 12:38:11 PM Good for her!!! Though it is scary to think what could've happened had things gone wrong. But maybe this will make those sickos think twice...especially if he is found in some ER about to lose his toy. 22752. betty - 4/5/2002 1:33:11 PM Judith, 22753. judithathome - 4/5/2002 1:44:34 PM Yes, that happened to me when I was about 12 years old and even a couple of times after I was a grown woman. But still, there's always a chance of the exposer being a real perv...one who wants to do more than shock some little girl. 22754. bubbaette - 4/5/2002 2:08:27 PM A friend of mine in college got flashed by a perv near the duck pond. She pointed at his dick and laughed. 22755. betty - 4/5/2002 2:09:57 PM my friend handled it by saying "No! And don't you ever do that again!" 22756. robertjayb - 4/5/2002 7:23:44 PM Let us not pray, Jeb... 22757. Cellar Door - 4/5/2002 7:28:09 PM So am I to take it that the LIBERAL MEDIA !!!!!is protecting a pack of RACIST ANTI-WHITE RAPISTS!!!!! because this photo hasn't been more widely distributed? 22758. wonkers2 - 4/5/2002 9:33:15 PM The pic from Seattle might actually be a religious ceremony--the laying on of hands. 22759. CalGal - 4/5/2002 10:37:36 PM The number of parents killing their children lately has been appalling. I clicked on the most recent horror story and was three paragraphs into it when I realized that this didn't happen in Santa Clara County, but Santa Clara, and that this family lived a a little over a mile away. First murders this year. We are normally a quiet little suburb. 22760. Cellar Door - 4/5/2002 11:45:38 PM Y'all simply MUST visit Ann Coulter's fabulous new website. 22761. CalGal - 4/6/2002 12:34:57 PM Celebrating a Window Man's Greatest Scrape 22762. Cellar Door - 4/7/2002 5:54:08 PM 22763. Cellar Door - 4/7/2002 6:59:50 PM MONTREAL -- Two Montreal men have learned an expensive lesson about hate. 22764. Cellar Door - 4/7/2002 7:00:04 PM "This is the message we've been waiting for, not just for us but for the entire gay community. The message should now be clear: Harassing someone simply because they're gay is not to be tolerated. We have a number of laws in place to protect people on the basis of sexual orientation. The commission just showed how those laws can and will be used to protect us." 22765. wonkers2 - 4/7/2002 7:12:34 PM Bravo! 22766. robertjayb - 4/9/2002 11:23:53 AM Oh Buddha, where art thou? 22767. Jonesatlaw - 4/9/2002 1:01:58 PM Computer bugs got you down? 22768. Jonesatlaw - 4/9/2002 1:02:08 PM Computer bugs got you down? 22769. joezan - 4/9/2002 11:01:58 PM More proof of the dangers of smoking: 22770. concerned - 4/10/2002 12:48:01 AM This is wrong: a type of inverted eugenics based on selfishness 22771. concerned - 4/10/2002 12:52:52 AM There's virtually zero chance that these lesbian lovers are RW, btw. 22772. concerned - 4/10/2002 1:00:10 AM Which is to point out why these two felt so enabled as to thoughtlessly scheme to bear disabled kids. Any atrocity is possible with such mindsets. 22773. Shannon - 4/10/2002 1:00:47 AM Washington Post article about it 22774. Cellar Door - 4/10/2002 1:31:29 AM Has Lorena Bobbit become a dog-breeder? 22775. bubbaette - 4/10/2002 1:16:15 PM Baby Baby Oh Baby 22776. concerned - 4/10/2002 1:36:07 PM Guess she'll never be able to maintain her equilibrium when she sees a Warner Bros. classic cartoon in the future. 22777. judithathome - 4/10/2002 2:08:25 PM No kidding! And forget buying a Tweety sweatshirt at the Warner Bros. store at the local mall! 22778. Jonesatlaw - 4/10/2002 4:48:55 PM "Baby Faced Fenster" in the Bugs Bunny short will always have a more twisted subtext for me now... 22779. Cellar Door - 4/10/2002 9:25:41 PM Just when you thought this story couldn't get any more FABULOUS! 22780. wonkers2 - 4/10/2002 9:30:43 PM Maybe Shanley was only doing a little missionary work with NAMBLA for Cardinal Law. 22781. Cellar Door - 4/10/2002 9:45:05 PM I never stayed sat that particular "Private Adult Resort," but I know the Warms Sands area like the back of my hand. I vacation there every summer. And so do countless gay tourists from around the world. 22782. judithathome - 4/11/2002 9:52:52 AM In the nude, all priests look alike. 22783. judithathome - 4/11/2002 9:55:03 AM A Letter From The Grave 22784. Cellar Door - 4/11/2002 11:31:14 AM Hey, I stayed at the "Whispering Palms" twice! 22785. robertjayb - 4/11/2002 12:58:43 PM For sure times have changed: 22786. ronski - 4/11/2002 1:03:29 PM 22787. robertjayb - 4/11/2002 1:08:45 PM But can I take these pills with enchiladas... 22788. robertjayb - 4/11/2002 1:33:53 PM A six-gun salute to the Ohio judiciary! 22789. wonkers2 - 4/11/2002 1:55:13 PM Hooray! Guns for everybody in Ohio! Great news. That'll fix them crooks. Watch the crime rate plummet. 22790. wonkers2 - 4/11/2002 1:56:41 PM At Ohio state games they can now shoot to kill instead of punching each other out. 22791. wonkers2 - 4/11/2002 1:59:22 PM Why would Karzai want to rebuild the colossal Bamyan scultures? Apparently he didn't check with Pseudoerasmus who says they are shlock. 22792. OhioSTOPAS - 4/11/2002 2:08:49 PM The judicial opinion discussed in the article linked by Ronski in Message # 22786 construes the following provision of Ohio Constitution: "The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security." 22793. OhioSTOPAS - 4/11/2002 2:10:23 PM Unlike Ronski, I don't consider this "good news". 22794. betty - 4/11/2002 2:19:05 PM violence and the threat of violence is an exceptional way to silence minority opinion...wonderfully illustrated Ohio. 22795. robertjayb - 4/11/2002 10:46:59 PM Grand Jury for Long Island diocese... 22796. wonkers2 - 4/11/2002 10:53:59 PM Would the Cardinal be subject to charges of obstruction of justice? Probably not likely. Too bad. 22797. robertjayb - 4/12/2002 4:07:52 AM Class dismissed... 22798. Jonesatlaw - 4/12/2002 3:50:58 PM Lesbians, you can keep 'em from adopting, fire 'em from their jobs and refuse to rent to 'em, but Ashcroft draws the line at killen 'em. 22799. Jonesatlaw - 4/12/2002 3:51:21 PM Lesbians, you can keep 'em from adopting, fire 'em from their jobs and refuse to rent to 'em, but Ashcroft draws the line at killen 'em. 22800. CalGal - 4/12/2002 3:55:24 PM If Ashcroft had flinched at trying it as a hate crime, you would have screamed bloody murder. Ain't no pleasing you. 22801. robertjayb - 4/12/2002 6:04:17 PM Awwwwwww....a baby whooper 22802. Erin R. - 4/12/2002 6:08:59 PM I was wondering when someone would get the bright idea of indicting church members for their crimes and coverups. 22803. robertjayb - 4/12/2002 6:14:58 PM Once captive whoopers learn migration route... 22804. wonkers2 - 4/14/2002 11:05:27 AM MERRILL LYNCH SELLS PIECES OF SHIT TO ITS RETAIL CUSTOMERS 22805. robertjayb - 4/14/2002 2:28:18 PM Lindy's grandson takes to air... 22806. Cellar Door - 4/14/2002 3:38:48 PM 22807. ronski - 4/14/2002 4:10:26 PM Not really. 22808. judithathome - 4/14/2002 4:43:17 PM I thought so...but that might be damning in itself. 22809. Absensia - 4/14/2002 5:14:40 PM Excellent article in my opinion. Thanks CD. 22810. Cellar Door - 4/14/2002 6:16:06 PM You're welcome. 22811. Absensia - 4/14/2002 6:34:17 PM Exactly...no one has to agree with everything, or even anything at all, but it's worth reading regardless of political view, because it does give people something to think about. And, "think" and "evalute" are extremely important, regardless of your final opinion. Molly Ivin's article, cited by Judith, is another good article. It raises issues for everyone, imo. 22812. robertjayb - 4/15/2002 10:20:43 AM Finns in a rage? The mind boggles... 22813. judithathome - 4/15/2002 11:22:42 AM Seeing that new film of Osama bin Laden from Al Jazeera, I flashed back on Edgar Bergen and Charley McCarthy for some reason. 22814. judithathome - 4/15/2002 11:27:29 AM Guess a link might help: 22815. robertjayb - 4/15/2002 12:45:17 PM OSAMA-At-Large: Day 216 22816. jexster - 4/15/2002 6:00:16 PM Nice work if you can get it.... 22817. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 4/15/2002 6:02:08 PM 22818. robertjayb - 4/15/2002 7:33:06 PM Watch your mouth, Pelle... 22819. jexster - 4/16/2002 11:42:46 AM Tommorrow I get to see EVIL eye-to-eye when the Research Director of the Housing Policy Institute, Upsala U comes to speak to my housing class.... 22820. jexster - 4/16/2002 11:45:00 AM Following that preface, "How to Swedish socialist, commie housing policies encourage Muslim hatred of the US?" 22821. wonkers2 - 4/16/2002 12:39:39 PM Prejudice in Sweden? Unbelievable! 22822. PelleNilsson - 4/16/2002 2:01:34 PM There can't possibly be a "Housing Policy Institute", at least not as it translates back to Swedish. Perhaps an "Urban Planning Institute"? 22823. jexster - 4/16/2002 2:16:37 PM Urban Planning, he's director of Housing Research... 22824. jexster - 4/16/2002 7:54:51 PM Tornadoes are once again rippin thru North Texas, once again God is punishing us for what they did to this country. 22825. jexster - 4/16/2002 9:49:56 PM There can't possibly be a "Housing Policy Institute", at least not as it translates back to Swedish. 22826. jexster - 4/17/2002 10:22:34 AM ObL Escaped at Tora Bora (US) 22827. zojak quafeth - 4/17/2002 11:05:18 AM From South China- Man fears wife will kill kids so he kills her first. The judge, Justice Gareth Luge, gives the guy 6 years & took 3 years off for good character. You cant be too lenient. Rusty Yates he's not. 22828. PelleNilsson - 4/17/2002 1:02:03 PM The Institute for Housing and Urban Studies. 22829. jexster - 4/17/2002 1:34:49 PM IBF tillskapades hösten 1994 genom ett riksdags- och konsistoriebeslut. Uppgiften var att bedriva samhällsvetenskaplig forskning och forskarutbildning inom bostads- och bebyggelseområdet. Enligt besluten skall institutet utgöra en mångvetenskaplig forskningsmiljö med stark vetenskaplig kompetens och huvudsaklig inriktning på inomvetenskapligt relevanta forskningsuppgifter av betydelse för den aktuella disciplinen. 22830. jexster - 4/17/2002 1:39:44 PM Hur står det till? 22831. jexster - 4/17/2002 5:42:13 PM So what did we learn from Bengt Turner 22832. robertjayb - 4/17/2002 7:49:21 PM Ahhh...to be young, foolish, and horny... 22833. Shannon - 4/17/2002 9:01:49 PM Arafat senile, Cooksey states 22834. jexster - 4/17/2002 9:27:11 PM I have been so busy trying to keep track of the Bush foreign policy fuck ups of the past month that I did not note yet another fissure in GOP solidarity. 22835. jexster - 4/18/2002 9:46:23 AM 22836. robertjayb - 4/18/2002 12:24:09 PM Aircraft hits Italian Highrise... 22837. robertjayb - 4/18/2002 12:37:57 PM Skyscraper Pirelli... 22838. wonkers2 - 4/18/2002 9:53:24 PM Robert Blake and his driver/body guard were just arrested in LA in connection with the death of Blake's wife, Bonnie Lee Bakely? last May. 22839. robertjayb - 4/23/2002 4:27:52 PM Opportunity knocks... 22840. robertjayb - 4/23/2002 4:47:34 PM Just like in the movies... 22841. robertjayb - 4/25/2002 11:20:00 AM Just a little something to steady his nerves... 22842. CalGal - 4/26/2002 10:32:01 AM 18 dead in German school shooting 22843. robertjayb - 4/26/2002 6:49:21 PM The Big Dog gets a new pup... 22845. robertjayb - 4/26/2002 11:23:03 PM Andrea Yates: The Movie 22846. Cellar Door - 4/27/2002 12:15:00 AM Sounds like a perfect comeback vehicle for Karen Valentine. 22847. concerned - 4/29/2002 2:46:29 PM bilingual education, corruption and liberalism go hand in hand, once again 22848. concerned - 5/1/2002 3:31:54 AM 22849. robertjayb - 5/1/2002 2:30:31 PM Lindbergh Grandson Begins Transatlantic Flight... 22850. robertjayb - 5/1/2002 2:42:26 PM OhMyGod! 22851. robertjayb - 5/1/2002 4:22:11 PM Man kills self with chain saw...(No, not Pelle...) 22852. robertjayb - 5/1/2002 11:41:05 PM California Condor returned to wild... 22853. robertjayb - 5/2/2002 5:35:48 AM Erik Lindbergh landed safely in Paris at Le Bourget at 9:27 UTC.... 22854. wonkers2 - 5/2/2002 7:08:19 AM Who needs Dr. Kevorkian? Get a chainsaw! 22855. OhioSTOPAS - 5/2/2002 4:41:54 PM Unassisted sawicide. 22856. concerned - 5/2/2002 6:54:10 PM What say a Mote admin gets cranking and add the ability to upload graphics to posts from one's PC? I've got several gifs and other graphics which are scans or otherwise not available on the web, and which I don't want to create a website for because of, among other things, their diverse natures. 22857. concerned - 5/2/2002 6:54:51 PM Would that make jumping down a manhole unassisted sewercide? 22858. robertjayb - 5/2/2002 9:50:04 PM Lady Bird hospitalized... 22859. Indiana Jones - 5/3/2002 10:50:01 AM Robotic rats 22860. robertjayb - 5/3/2002 11:16:51 AM It was just a cooling off period... 22861. concerned - 5/3/2002 11:22:51 AM A public service announcement from our friends at PETA. Btw, what kind of natural topping do you want on your road pizza: gravel, asphalt, mushrooms or mold? 22862. concerned - 5/3/2002 11:22:58 AM A public service announcement from our friends at PETA. Btw, what kind of natural topping do you want on your road pizza: gravel, asphalt, mushrooms or mold? 22863. concerned - 5/3/2002 11:23:11 AM Such is not the case for all the cows, pigs, chickens, fish, and other commonly farmed animals who are unlucky enough to be born wearing the label USDA meat. They have personalities and are quite capable of forming communities and relationships if given the chance. Instead, factory farms deny animals everything that is natural or enjoyable to them, condemning them to frustrating lives in filthy, cramped cages, stalls, and sheds, where only a steady diet of pharmaceuticals keeps them alive through the miserable and unnatural conditions. These animals, whose capacity for pain and suffering is similar to our own, undergo excruciating debeaking, tail-docking, and castrationall without painkillers. They never feel a ray of sunshine on their backs or breathe fresh airuntil their hellish, harrowing ride to the slaughterhouse where, if theyre lucky, slaughterhouse workers stun them before hoisting them upside-down and slitting their throats. Click here to learn more about factory-farming cruelties. 22864. concerned - 5/3/2002 11:23:40 AM Sorry about initial double post. New Internet server isn't set up correctly yet. 22865. concerned - 5/3/2002 11:24:16 AM toys 22866. rubberducky - 5/3/2002 2:37:35 PM shoulda threw in the new Virtua Fighter 22867. marjoribanks - 5/3/2002 4:24:50 PM From the BBC: 22868. Cellar Door - 5/4/2002 12:24:22 PM This Cemetery is for Whites Only! 22869. wabbit - 5/4/2002 12:39:42 PM concerned, 22870. Cellar Door - 5/4/2002 3:18:15 PM Why Ann Coulter's Favorite Frenchman Won. 22871. HollyW - 5/5/2002 11:07:34 AM Has this been brought up yet? 22872. CalGal - 5/5/2002 11:22:51 AM Wow, thanks for the heads up. 22873. jexster - 5/6/2002 12:44:48 PM Residents of Happy, Texas weren't very this weekend as tornadoes ravaged yet another Tejas town with a funny name. 22874. glendajean - 5/7/2002 2:28:09 PM According to the Guardian, the suspected killer of that Dutch politician is a veegan animal rights activist. 22875. CalGal - 5/7/2002 2:46:29 PM Oh, that's too funny. It is bad that he was killed, but think how the vegans will suffer. 22876. glendajean - 5/7/2002 2:58:18 PM From what I've read of the fellow, he was not Le Pen. His attacks on Muslims were centered on their rejection of liberal Dutch culture. He specifically cited how they treated gay people and women. I've read a couple of stories at the Guardian and the Times of London and he supposedly never called for removing Muslims, just rejecting more immigrants. He based this on the intolerance of Muslim culture and the fact that Holland has a tremendous population density already. He also said that he wanted current Muslim immigrants to assimilate more. 22877. CalGal - 5/7/2002 3:09:00 PM I probably would have voted for him. Only in Europe would he be considered "far right". 22878. judithathome - 5/7/2002 3:39:36 PM Does this kid look like a domestic terrorist? 22879. glendajean - 5/7/2002 3:57:10 PM Judith -- think he couldn't handle the pressures of college? 22880. betty - 5/7/2002 3:58:08 PM judith, 22881. judithathome - 5/7/2002 4:21:15 PM Drudge has a slightly different take than CNN: 22882. judithathome - 5/7/2002 4:22:29 PM Dude, I hope not all college students speak this way.... 22883. CalGal - 5/7/2002 4:23:55 PM but then I'm much more fearful of clean cut white kids than I am of shaggy Arabs 22884. arkymalarky - 5/7/2002 9:32:10 PM I can't imagine why. It's still the best odds source of crime in the country against white people. 22885. robertjayb - 5/7/2002 9:40:38 PM Pipe-Bomb Suspect Arrested in Nevada... 22886. Rama - 5/8/2002 10:14:11 AM It's still the best odds source of crime in the country against white people. 22887. CalGal - 5/8/2002 10:18:14 AM It's still the best odds source of crime in the country against white people. 22888. CalGal - 5/8/2002 10:20:04 AM Actually, I'm not even sure you're right in numbers--as I wrote that, I was thinking criminals, not terrorists. In numbers, I think it more likely that any scruffy Arab (keep in mind this was Betty's term) in this country either is a terrorist or supports it than any cleancut or even scruffy white kid is a terrorist or supports it. 22889. arkymalarky - 5/8/2002 5:12:58 PM Cleancut white kids, percentage wise, are far less likely to be terrorists than any shaggy Arab. 22890. betty - 5/8/2002 10:09:41 PM Well, Cal, as for terrorist attacks in the US, they are much more commonly committed by White Men than they are by Arabs...One need only review American History a bit...second I said "but then I'm much more fearful of clean cut white kids than I am of shaggy Arabs." 22891. CalGal - 5/8/2002 10:14:57 PM Betty, 22892. betty - 5/8/2002 10:40:35 PM Cal, 22893. CalGal - 5/8/2002 10:44:17 PM Why, thank you. I confess I only read the last sentence because the rest seemed a tad too dizzy to waste time focusing on. But I shall focus on the fact that you believe I should live my own life as I wish. Have a nice evening. 22894. jexster - 5/9/2002 10:11:45 AM Searching for naked pics of Luke John Helder, I came accross the following. Insufficiently terrifying for Cal's thread, it winds up with Robert 22895. jexster - 5/9/2002 10:12:10 AM Free Lukie! 22896. jexster - 5/9/2002 7:10:38 PM 22897. robertjayb - 5/10/2002 12:08:04 PM And you thought Jehova's Witnesses were pests... 22898. joezan - 5/11/2002 8:51:09 AM What the US Gov't gets for being nice in the first place... 22899. joezan - 5/11/2002 8:55:12 AM My first decree once I am crowned King: 22900. judithathome - 5/11/2002 9:14:27 AM Germany has what is known as "the dumb shit law"...you can be liable for things you do that are so obviously dumb, you should've known better than to do. 22901. jexster - 5/11/2002 1:05:15 PM 22902. jexster - 5/11/2002 3:07:18 PM JAH... 22903. joezan - 5/12/2002 11:26:44 PM Geez...shouldn't she have known they'd check her bag? 22904. OhioSTOPAS - 5/13/2002 7:52:40 AM Evidently she thought she could just walk on by. 22905. rubberducky - 5/13/2002 10:13:08 AM nice to see Canada continuing to get it right 22906. Cellar Door - 5/13/2002 10:19:12 AM Dionne's Psychic Friends have failed her once again! 22907. Cellar Door - 5/13/2002 10:20:03 AM Beware of the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy! 22908. Rama - 5/13/2002 10:25:06 AM Marc Hall is my New Hero! 22909. rubberducky - 5/13/2002 10:26:05 AM he is, um, 17. 22910. Daniel Sickles - 5/13/2002 10:37:38 AM Appeasing the Race Hustlers 22911. Cellar Door - 5/13/2002 11:02:35 AM Ah yes, things were so much better back when niggers knew their place. 22912. Cellar Door - 5/13/2002 11:03:29 AM You'd think they would be happy what with Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas and Colin Powell, but NO! 22913. Daniel Sickles - 5/13/2002 11:16:41 AM Cellar 22914. Cellar Door - 5/13/2002 11:42:38 AM WASHINGTON--In a case that highlights prison systems failure to protect vulnerable prisoners -- and the role bias plays in who gets protected -- the American Civil Liberties Union today filed a lawsuit against Texas prison officials who permitted a gay African American man to be repeatedly raped and sold as a sexual slave for $5. 22915. Cellar Door - 5/13/2002 11:43:23 AM According to the ACLU complaint, Johnson appeared before the prisons all-white classification committee seven separate times asking to be placed in safe keeping from predatory prisoners. Instead of protecting Johnson, the ACLU complaint charges, the committee members taunted him and called him a dirty tramp, and one said, Theres no reason why Black punks cant fight if they dont want to fuck. 22916. Cellar Door - 5/13/2002 11:43:37 AM I know most people don't care what happens to prisoners, but no matter what Roderick has done he doesn't deserve the abuse he has received, said Johnsons cousin Sharon Bailey, whose calls to prison officials were ignored. The entire family is horrified and devastated by what's happening to Roderick. We are afraid we will never see him alive again. We have faith that God will protect him, but the prison must also be held responsible for ignoring our pleas for help. Today we are praying for Roderick -- and fighting for him. 22917. Shannon - 5/14/2002 9:31:39 AM Changing school times 22918. judithathome - 5/14/2002 9:44:31 AM What teenagers are functional at that hour? 22919. Rama - 5/14/2002 10:16:57 AM he is, um, 17. 22920. jexster - 5/15/2002 10:43:01 AM 22921. Cellar Door - 5/16/2002 2:28:15 PM Scotland on Sunday 22922. Cellar Door - 5/16/2002 2:29:13 PM The column concludes: "The law philosopher and paedophile [Edward] Brongersma, for years senator of the Labour party, spent his life campaigning for understanding of the paedophile fellow man. He launched this effort fearlessly after serving a sentence for sexual harassment of a minor. The minor in question had not considered it harassment, but the justice department judged otherwise in the 1950s. 22923. Cellar Door - 5/16/2002 2:29:54 PM Not only has Fortuyn's death won the sympathy of voters, but it has also served to discredit the mainstream parties, which are being accused of having whipped up a national hate campaign against Fortuyn by 'wrongly' portraying him as a right-wing extremist. 22924. Cellar Door - 5/16/2002 2:30:35 PM Fortuyn relates another sexual encounter - this time in explicit detail. He concludes: "I was frightened and ran away to my home, to my mother. Excited, I ran into the room. My mother looked at me searchingly and asked what had happened. Nothing, of course. Watch out, little man, was the only thing she said. A glass of lemonade made me calm down. Yes, that was exciting." 22925. robertjayb - 5/20/2002 2:05:04 PM Probably he'd rather nut talk about it... 22926. CalGal - 5/20/2002 3:43:49 PM 22927. judithathome - 5/20/2002 3:51:43 PM Nice obit...last book of his I read was The Flamingo's Smile. He wrote entertainingly about difficult subjects; his stuff was very accessible. 22928. rubberducky - 5/20/2002 4:18:49 PM 22929. OhioSTOPAS - 5/20/2002 4:49:57 PM If they can breed a featherless chicken, can a rubber ducky be far behind? 22930. Jamie R - 5/20/2002 5:21:32 PM I'm very sad about Stephen Jay Gould dying. I disagreed with him more often than not, but he was an interesting and engaging writer and I really benefited from reading his essays. 22931. Cellar Door - 5/21/2002 10:12:53 AM 22932. CalGal - 5/22/2002 12:03:43 PM They've found a body in Rockcreek Park and it looks like it is Chandra Levy. 22933. bubbaette - 5/22/2002 12:10:20 PM Wonder how they've missed it all this time? 22934. OhioSTOPAS - 5/22/2002 12:12:49 PM ANOTHER distraction from last week's embarrassing "Bush Knew" revelations. 22935. robertjayb - 5/22/2002 12:31:22 PM The area where the skull was found was searched previously: Article from July 2001... 22936. concerned - 5/22/2002 12:35:15 PM Re. 22934 - 22937. robertjayb - 5/22/2002 6:04:24 PM It's Chandra... 22938. jexster - 5/22/2002 9:35:45 PM Mets' Piazza "I'm not gay" 22939. robertjayb - 5/23/2002 12:09:03 AM Maybe his sword slipped... 22940. joezan - 5/23/2002 6:04:18 AM Local boy makes good: 22941. thoughtful - 5/23/2002 8:56:22 AM So Chandra was found...why is Condit off the hook now...was he in CA at the time? All the accounts I see only say the police don't consider him a suspect. 22942. rubberducky - 5/23/2002 10:37:54 AM 22943. robertjayb - 5/23/2002 4:56:47 PM Wrong trousers lifted... 22944. jexster - 5/24/2002 3:25:57 PM Terror Attack??? 22945. robertjayb - 5/27/2002 3:00:06 PM Armed and Not Very Dangerous... 22946. wabbit - 5/28/2002 12:09:37 PM I just don't know where to post this, but I had to share: 22947. robertjayb - 5/28/2002 12:20:44 PM I'm sympathetic. They bother me, too. They hide my stuff. Just last week I paid almost forty bucks for a new remote transmitter for the truck's locking system. Now it's gone. I know they took it. And my three-cell flashlight is missing. 22948. robertjayb - 5/28/2002 12:22:14 PM Dressed for Success... 22949. robertjayb - 5/28/2002 12:33:39 PM A dip chip? 22950. robertjayb - 5/28/2002 2:15:37 PM Save the Tasmanian Tiger! 22951. robertjayb - 5/28/2002 2:27:02 PM Mafia Godmothers Rampage in Naples... 22952. jexster - 5/28/2002 3:21:37 PM SF Gay Hypocrite Roast 22953. robertjayb - 5/30/2002 1:49:19 PM Hello, Comrade... 22954. robertjayb - 5/30/2002 2:24:28 PM No latitude for longitude pill... 22955. Cellar Door - 5/30/2002 3:53:02 PM Play Ball! -- Not that there's anything wrong with that. . . 22956. arkymalarky - 5/30/2002 6:29:49 PM Authorities have shut down a local company and seized $30 million of its assets for allegedly selling bogus penile enlargement pills over the Internet, state officials said on Wednesday. 22957. judithathome - 5/30/2002 6:48:59 PM I just closed out my Juno account because of porn spam...never had any for 5 years and suddenly, about 12 a day. Needless to say, I didn't sign up for any. 22958. arkymalarky - 5/30/2002 6:52:45 PM I now use that Hotmail for a dumping email when I need to give out an address. I get about 30 or more a day. I just delete them. MsGreer and a few others I know still use it, though, so I check it regularly. Bob also has one that the people we toured with in Europe have (from before we went online at home), and very rarely we hear from one of them, so I check it, too. 22959. judithathome - 5/30/2002 6:55:55 PM Juno joined with some other big company and after that, I started getting porn; I thought maybe they opened it up but now I sort of believe it was a revenge thing and someone gave out my address. Juvenile, I know, but likely. 22960. arkymalarky - 5/30/2002 7:01:00 PM Well, there are a few juvenile people that one is apt to come into contact with on the internet. ;-) 22961. robertjayb - 6/1/2002 4:19:04 PM Wonder if they had "Dead Peasant" insurance coverage... 22962. ronski - 6/1/2002 5:33:40 PM I wonder how long it will take Mexico to establish rule of law and property rights. 22963. godlessclif - 6/2/2002 2:02:27 PM NAFTA makes the rule of law impossible. How can Mexican Farmers compete with government subsidized US agribusiness? The corn farmers are eating each other[figuratively] in places like Chipas on Oaxaca because of US corn subsidies. The below cost corn is dumped on the world market, in Mexico and other places in the third world independent farmers cannot compete. Mexico must either subsidize it's farmer or tear up the NAFTA agreement. Why do you think all the anti-globalization demonstrators are demonstrating? Bush just calls it terrorism. 22964. robertjayb - 6/2/2002 2:32:01 PM Knocked up? Head for Switzerland... 22965. robertjayb - 6/2/2002 2:58:06 PM Bats v. Mallets: Where will it all end? 22966. jexster - 6/3/2002 2:59:12 PM WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) on Monday rejected an appeal by Texas, which wanted to execute a death row inmate even though his lawyer slept repeatedly during his 1984 murder trial in Houston. 22967. robertjayb - 6/3/2002 3:47:22 PM Another Energy Trader Cashes Out---Bigtime! 22968. CalGal - 6/3/2002 9:30:51 PM This is so ridiculously sweet. 22969. godlessclif - 6/3/2002 9:55:30 PM So if your relative died in 9/11 you can get a cow? 22970. bubbaette - 6/3/2002 10:29:09 PM I would guess that to those villagers, the cows donated represents a far greater proportion of their wealth than the most of us gave to the Red Cross. 22971. godlessclif - 6/4/2002 12:53:24 AM Bill Maher on Catholic Switzerlands legalization of first trimeter abortion. Maher, "The catholic church in Switzerland no longer regards an abortion as a child killed, it look on it as a future molestation lawsuit avoided." 22972. robertjayb - 6/5/2002 1:33:54 AM Warning: Don't fuck with the dolphin! 22973. robertjayb - 6/6/2002 11:13:44 AM Shot at for driving while nekkid... 22974. dbltyme - 6/7/2002 3:27:10 AM Finally! A clear voice of reason makes a ruling in the "best interests of the child." From the bench, awards custody of 6-yr-old boy to the non-biological, custodial father. A great day and the benchmark long-needed for precedent. 22975. dbltyme - 6/7/2002 3:58:56 AM The LATimes 22976. OhioSTOPAS - 6/7/2002 7:02:31 AM dbltyme - I'm with you. That was an excellent decision. Too often child custody cases are decided by in effect treating the child as property and analyzing the property rights of the "claimants". The best interest of the child should be the goal. 22977. CalGal - 6/7/2002 9:08:20 AM That is a nice story. However, it was California, so I wouldn't expect too much for future decisions. 22978. OhioSTOPAS - 6/7/2002 12:46:57 PM 22979. rubberducky - 6/7/2002 2:31:18 PM wha? Arafat NOT attracted to Sharon?? 22980. CalGal - 6/7/2002 4:08:52 PM Ohio, 22981. OhioSTOPAS - 6/7/2002 4:30:44 PM I saw Dominick Dunne on TV a couple of days ago (on the Today Show, I think) also raving aqbout the prosecutor's closing argument. 22982. CalGal - 6/7/2002 4:35:53 PM I didn't track it much. What I think the prosecution did in its closing argument was establish that Skakel was lying with a recorded interview. I'm not sure how he was allowed to introduce direct evidence into the closing argument, though. 22983. OhioSTOPAS - 6/7/2002 4:45:52 PM In closing argument an attorney can (I'm pretty sure) present items of admitted evidence to the jury for its re-examination. I'm assuming that the tape was entered into evidence during the trial. 22984. CalGal - 6/7/2002 4:49:33 PM Well, they asked to rehear it and were turned down. But maybe I have details wrong. I'll go look. 22985. OhioSTOPAS - 6/7/2002 5:01:27 PM I think what the jury was not permitted to re-hear (or read a transcript of) was the prosecutor's argument itself. Since the argument itself is not evidence, the request was denied. 22986. CalGal - 6/7/2002 5:02:40 PM Yes, I know. But I think that this is where the evidence was introduced, or something. I forget the details. 22987. godlessclif - 6/7/2002 6:48:44 PM The defense should have emphasized the other confession from the Tutor and the fact Skakel was on serious ming altering drugs in the middle of a psychotic break when he made the "confession". People on that type of medication confess to killing Abe Lincoln and kidnapping the Lindberg baby. I bet they prosecutor screened the jury so that they had no one on it with a fa,ily member thta had a breakdown. People who have not seen someone go through a breakdown have no clue what it is like. 22988. Shannon - 6/7/2002 8:12:02 PM Court rules movie makers not responsible forshooting 22989. godlessclif - 6/7/2002 8:17:00 PM How do things like that get into court? 22990. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 9:05:44 AM She makes kind of a good point that if you elimintate every form of controversial subject from the palette of the curriculum. No wonder schools become boring and students uninspired thinkers. 22991. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 9:17:29 AM Message # 22989 22992. rubberducky - 6/10/2002 9:36:15 AM Let's hear it for any case that advocates personal responsibility. 22993. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 12:25:12 PM I think personal responsibility is a code word for letting business abuse people 22994. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 12:59:28 PM Not in my mind or when I use it... and my point is far broader. 22995. judithathome - 6/10/2002 1:03:45 PM iiibbb...I was just thinking about you the other day and wondering where you'd been...welcome back! 22996. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 1:06:29 PM Even still... to automatically assume businesses are out to scre the public is a biased viewpoint especially in cases where people obviously played a central role in their own misfortune. There are plenty of cases where people have been awarded millions for acting irrationally or stupid. 22997. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 1:15:34 PM No one trusts anyone to act sensibly anymore. It's pretty frustrating. 22998. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 1:17:51 PM Hi J@H 22999. judithathome - 6/10/2002 1:28:04 PM I think your thoughts are very well crafted and I happen to agree with everything you've said in the last few posts, especially the bit about credit card debt. That holds for anyone, not just students. 23000. arkymalarky - 6/10/2002 1:37:36 PM Me too (cheaply going for a millennial). 23001. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 1:41:03 PM What else is advertising but putting thoughts in your head. We don't let drug dealers advertise cocaine under some free speech unbrella. Political speech is differnt from commercial speech intended to sell a product. I support the truth as a absolute defense, but have yet to see any advertising that tells the truth. If adverting of dangerous products is aimed at inexperience youngsters it is a form of fraud. There are a lot of issue from guns to tobacco and each coulc have it own thread, but what personal resonsibility means is Government will not protect it's most vulnerable citizens from predatory exploitation by people to whom profit mean more than human life. As libertarian I suppose you also would elgalize Heroin and let the Heroin companies advertise targeting ads to teenagers 23002. PelleNilsson - 6/10/2002 1:42:41 PM Millennia whose first two digits form a prime number do not count. Sorry, but that's how it is. 23003. bubbaette - 6/10/2002 1:47:37 PM I have just a touch of sympathy for the students sucked into credit card debt. Most students have not had much in the way of credit experience when they start college. They get loaded up right away with student loan debt which is a bit of an abstraction, for those who've never before borrowed money and have no job and are not expected to make payments for a while. That these kids are receiving come-ons for credit cards is somewhat the credit card company's look out since they are loaning money to people with no jobs and no credit histories. 23004. arkymalarky - 6/10/2002 1:47:38 PM Sez you. 23005. arkymalarky - 6/10/2002 1:48:17 PM Oops. That was to Pelle, of course. 23006. rubberducky - 6/10/2002 2:00:06 PM Political speech is differnt from commercial speech intended to sell a product. 23007. judithathome - 6/10/2002 2:15:03 PM John Gotti....RIP 23008. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 2:23:08 PM I think the McDonald's case was oversimplified in the press. The jury was correct in making the large award because they heard all the facts. Most coffee shop like Dunkin Donuts heat their coffee to 140 degrees farenheit. That is why other companies do not have a brun problem. McDonalds made an economic decision that they were throwing too much cold coffee away and raised the temperature of their coffee to 200 degrees farenheit in 1982. In the ten years between 1982 and 1992 over 700 people suffered severe burns from McDonalds coffee. McDonalds found settling the burn cases was a trivial ammount of money compared to the money the made by selling the coffe instead of throwing cold coffee away. The 2.7 million dollar punitive award is equal to about two days of McDonalds coffee sales, and was awarded as an economic incentive to motivate McDonalds to stop burning people. To date McDonalds has continued to burn people, but has put a warning on the cup to make future burn lawsuits more difficult for those burned. And to motivate the burned to take a small settlement.The truth about the McDonalds coffee case. 23009. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 2:34:02 PM Student loans are a fascist plot. Conservatives were very frightened when the children of the working class started going to college under the G.I. Bill and Pell grants and just working their way through. This "blueing of America" created a liberal political force in the 1960s. As the 1950's graduates started small businesses and started giving money to left wing causes. These educated kids with working class values changed the political landscape in the 1960s. To put the working class back on it's knees in the Reagan revolution the student loan was invented. College costs were escallated to keep working class kids out, and the fact that they were deep in debt on graduation prevented them from starting small businesses and competeing with the idiot children of the inbred upper classes. [See George W. Bush] The most common way that right wing forces deal with anyone politiclaly active on the left on campus is to arrange to revoke his student loan. This was coupled with an aggressive endowing of university chairs to get cash strapped colleges to hire right wing jerks as professors. Note Dick Armey was made an economic professor under a VRWC grant even though he is a total moron on economic issues like the minimum wage. 23010. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 2:36:59 PM The temperature of the coffee is absolutely irrelevant to the stupidity of placing hot coffee in your lap between your legs in a moving car. 23011. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 2:38:31 PM The triviality of an award compared to the profits of the company are also irrelevant. All that shows me is that McDonalds is overcharging for coffee. 23012. Wombat - 6/10/2002 2:38:33 PM Student loans existed before the Reagan Administration. I had one (with 3% interest!). 23013. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 2:43:14 PM I'm also talking about credit card debt... 23014. bubbaette - 6/10/2002 2:48:13 PM How about the companies who loan money to high-risk borrowers -- they bear none of the responsibility? 23015. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 2:49:38 PM 23006. rubberducky - 6/10/02 7:00:06 PM You misunderstand me. By commercail speech I meant commercial advertising whose only motive is greed and only goal is to amke you buy something you don't want or need. They're free to do that if they can live with themselves, but when they try to sell you something that will kill you , poison you or ruin your heath their speech need to be regulated. I hope that clears up the terminology. Selling cigarettes to kids though advertising [Joe Camel] is just like yelling fire in a crowded theater. It kills people. 23016. jexster - 6/10/2002 2:53:12 PM Queens in Mourning: Mister John Gotti, RIP 23017. jexster - 6/10/2002 2:54:04 PM damn I am always pickin up somebody's toys 23018. PelleNilsson - 6/10/2002 3:05:13 PM Who gets the blame if you burn yourself on coffee brewed at home? The coffee machine maker? 23019. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 3:07:31 PM Message # 23014 23020. rubberducky - 6/10/2002 3:12:35 PM As they say buyer beware. The failure of someone to explore the risks of debt is their own fault. 23021. rubberducky - 6/10/2002 3:14:34 PM clif: 23022. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 3:18:27 PM I do that myself to people all the time. I just did nto knwo how else to respond. Sometime I get so sarcastic it have to use the tag 23023. bubbaette - 6/10/2002 3:27:17 PM I'm not discounting the responsibility of those who borrow on the credit cards to repay the debt. But I think if you are lending to a high risk population, you assume some of the risk because of your target market. 23024. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 3:28:55 PM Message # 23001 23025. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 3:38:20 PM Coffee machines are designed to brew a 140 degree farenheit. McDonalds brews at 200 degrees plus so they do not have to throw away cold coffee. You are unlikely to ever get a third degree burn from Mr. Coffee. I thought I already explained that and linked to the facts. 23026. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 3:43:11 PM McDonalds still gives third degree burn to about 70 customers a year. The warnings on the cup protect them from more lawsuits and they settle for paying small amounts for medical bills. They could stop the scalding by just lowering the temperature of their coffee to 140 degree. They refuse to lower the temperature. That is because McDonalds does not give a flying #$%@ at a rolling donut about their customers. Suffice it to say I go to Wendys or Burger King when I want fast food. 23027. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 3:45:50 PM EXACTLY!! 23028. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 3:46:20 PM don't go to McDonalds... TADA!! 23029. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 4:40:28 PM I.B.I will openly say I am far less inclined to place the blame on companies that market to high-risk borrowers Or what we call predatory lenders. Goodtimes With John Amos, Esther Rolle and JJ Walker. 23030. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 4:50:38 PM I.B. I don't trust advertisers... talk about the ultimate bias. I take everything they say with an absolute grain of salt. Anyone who believes what an ad says as gospel truth deserves what they get Does that include an 18 year olf kid away from home for the first time that is persuaded to start smoking, eat junkfood [he deserves a break today] and buy a gun because he can't be a real amnif the doesn't? Don't you see the flaw in Libertarian thinking. Corporation are immoral and manipulative. They prey on the weakest among us if not regulated. The untimate capitalist if not Midas Mulligan from Ayn Rands novels. It is George Babbitt from Sinclair Lewis Novels. "I never did anything I wanted to in my life, i did my duty and everyone else is going to do his duty, while I am in charge."...Babbitt. 23031. godlessclif - 6/10/2002 4:53:32 PM Or amybe Milo from "Catch 22" by Joe Heller. Milo is the guy in the eighth airforce who sold the silk from the parachutes to a dress manufacturer to make money for the PX company. 23032. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 4:59:06 PM or what we call ignorant borrowers... 23033. iiibbb - 6/10/2002 5:00:40 PM But really... we all know how economics works. Every time a company is saddled with a lawsuit... the costs just get transfered to the rest of the customers through increased prices. 23034. godlessclif - 6/11/2002 5:57:04 AM You are not up with the new laws. The first act of the Bush Regime was a new law that helps the credit card companies rip off poor families. Bush passed a bill that does not let those caught in predatory lending shed their credit card debt in Bankrupsy. They must be below the poverty level for five years before they can request protection from garnishee of wages by credit card companies that contiinue to charge 18% interest plus penalties and fees all through the five year period. No fresh starts unless you're an Enron executive with a golden parachute. 23035. iiibbb - 6/11/2002 8:55:36 AM Well... 23036. arkymalarky - 6/11/2002 9:54:00 AM No wonder you're so broke! ;-) 23037. iiibbb - 6/11/2002 10:09:39 AM Yeah... but I also take full responsibility. I'll spend the money after I get a good job. 23038. rubberducky - 6/11/2002 10:18:11 AM you think you are just sooooo smart, doncha? 23039. bubbaette - 6/11/2002 10:21:57 AM When I was in college back in the early 80's I got out of sync with the traditional academic year when I changed majors -- I changed over to my Junior year at the end of 1st semester when the Pell grant money was exhausted for the year. I went to the financial aid office and the director suggested that I get a credit card to pay tuition and buy books until the next fall rolled around and more assistance was available. I respectfully declined since I was working 20 hours a week at slightly over minimum wage and was worried about my ability to make payments. But the fact that the Financial Aid director suggested it means to me that not every student who gets a credit card is acting on his own stupidity. 23040. iiibbb - 6/11/2002 10:30:37 AM That's true... but ultimately it's the captian of a ship who's responsible when the boat sinks... even if the lookouts missed the iceberg. 23041. godlessclif - 6/12/2002 6:54:08 AM 23033. iiibbb - 6/10/02 10:00:40 PM <satire>Perhaps you have not heard of a new theory called "Supply and demand".</satire> This theory states that is supply and demand sets market clearing prices, not costs. Thus a company sued must pay the settlement of a lawsuit out of profits, since it cannot change the market clearing price set by the supply and demand curve unless it has a global monopoly like Microsoft or some local monopoly like some of the Oil companies. Since the paid judgement comes out of profits it is a good incentive for the management to stop injuring it's customers and employees. I am always amazed by the ignorance of economic theory among Republicans. 23042. godlessclif - 6/12/2002 6:54:42 AM Tags dammit 23043. godlessclif - 6/12/2002 6:56:28 AM Life isn't fair to the poor, your customers, investors and employees and you rejoice in the unfairness that lets your enron them and benefit your wealth!!! iiibbb!!! 23044. iiibbb - 6/12/2002 8:21:15 AM a) not a republican 23045. godlessclif - 6/12/2002 8:40:23 AM to enron is a new verb, the oil company only being an example. McDonalds does enron it's customers by selling them greaseburgers at inflated prices that ruin their health. McDonalds also enrons it's employees by underpaying and over working them. Their stock is up to 30 so they do not seem to be enroning their stockholders like many companies. 23046. iiibbb - 6/12/2002 8:43:41 AM I don't eat at McDonalds... I hate their products. 23047. godlessclif - 6/12/2002 8:44:57 AM e) If a cost transcends manufacturers. Such as increasing insurance costs to protect from lawsuits... maybe even padding profits in case they do get tagged by a lawsuit... or installing safety devices. Then you can expect that to be reflected universally in prices. Maybe not uniformally, because some companies can implement the change more efficiently than others Despite this transcendental meditiation of yours supply and demand still sets prices, the only effect of a regulation is to reduce profits for the corporation doing damage, and in the economy as a whole doing something that prevents 700 third degree burn cases a year, or that prevents crippling injuries to employees is a net plus for the overall economy even if McDonalds has to throw out some cold coffee and pay two days coffee profits in fines. 23048. godlessclif - 6/12/2002 8:51:07 AM Maybe you think regulation hurts the medical care industry, hospital and pharmceutical companies because they do not have as many injuries to treat? That is a bizzarre economic analysis , but the Bush wars should create plenty of cripples to keep the physical therapy and prothetics businesses going, and the oil spills will keep the otter scrubbers employed. I guess that is the big argument against national health insurance. Healthy people are bad for business. The Republican view always seems so Alice in Wonderland to me?Bush reaction to national health insurance for the poor Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!! 23049. iiibbb - 6/12/2002 8:58:48 AM My reaction to National Health insurance is that I'm against it because it would go the way of Social Security. Which is a flop. I get less than a 2% return on that investment. 23050. iiibbb - 6/12/2002 8:59:22 AM I mean if you don't think they can pull off homeland security... what makes you think they can pull of health care? 23051. Wombat - 6/12/2002 10:20:18 AM Social security provides benefits should you become physically unable to work, to your spouse and dependents if you die prematurely, and is not--as yet--subject to the vicissitudes of the stock market. 23052. CalGal - 6/12/2002 10:32:18 AM I disagree. Social Security is nothing more than a massive income transfer game, one that benefitted the middle class for a long time with little cost. I don't think that's the case any more. I don't think it should beprivatized or turn to the equity market, but I do think it should be restricted to poor people, and the deductions cut accordingly. 23053. iiibbb - 6/12/2002 10:36:16 AM I hate microsoft and I don't know why. 23054. iiibbb - 6/12/2002 10:41:19 AM There are many retirees drawing on SS who have no need for it. They draw on it because it's an 'entitlement'. With people living longer, most these days take way more out than they ever put in. That won't be the case for me... if I see any of the money I've put in SS again then I'll be amazed. 23055. Ms. No - 6/12/2002 1:13:15 PM To All Hosts: 23056. robertjayb - 6/13/2002 2:27:38 PM Money for nothing---Chicks for free... 23057. jexster - 6/13/2002 8:13:50 PM Gay SFPD Cop Killed in High Speed Pursuit Message # 22994 23059. CalGal - 6/14/2002 12:31:54 AM Jex, where does the article say he was gay? Or did you just know already? 23060. dbltyme - 6/14/2002 1:44:18 AM American Consulate, Pakistan, huge bomb exploded. Here they come again........ 23061. CalGal - 6/14/2002 2:17:46 AM Five dead--supposedly no foreigners. 23062. RustlerPike - 6/14/2002 2:23:36 AM Cal #23059: 23063. dbltyme - 6/14/2002 3:00:50 AM (This should be titled "Cranial Rectalitis") 23064. joezan - 6/14/2002 7:43:54 AM Musta been a Love Crime... 23065. iiibbb - 6/14/2002 9:33:49 AM Message # 23602 23066. robertjayb - 6/14/2002 2:42:14 PM Some not so dour Swedes... 23067. PelleNilsson - 6/14/2002 2:54:31 PM All I can say that this is the first time I hear about it. 23068. robertjayb - 6/14/2002 4:04:38 PM Guess they didn't need a hay stacker. 23069. PelleNilsson - 6/14/2002 4:13:43 PM And the hay fork offers precious little coverage. But Rimbo is a real place. I'll keep my eyes open. 23070. glendajean - 6/14/2002 4:27:42 PM The first version, featuring waist-up, black-and-white photographs of nude, young farmers in farm settings, was designed to change the image of Swedish farmers as "grumpy old men with hats. 23071. PelleNilsson - 6/14/2002 4:44:44 PM glenda 23072. glendajean - 6/14/2002 5:17:59 PM No offense, dear Pelle, but your photograph doesn't carry the same emotional punch that black-and-white photographs of nude, young farmers in farm settings does. 23073. glendajean - 6/14/2002 5:18:27 PM not many...too much 23074. robertjayb - 6/15/2002 12:00:38 PM Houston Chronicle link to Andersen guilty verdict... 23075. CalGal - 6/15/2002 12:05:00 PM That was a pretty amazing jury. 23076. robertjayb - 6/15/2002 2:06:33 PM Very advanced math... 23077. iiibbb - 6/15/2002 5:34:12 PM Smallpox Threat... 23078. robertjayb - 6/16/2002 4:35:05 AM Andersen Jurors Interviewed... 23079. godlessclif - 6/17/2002 9:32:39 AM We developed bio-weapons first. We even used Smallpox on Indian tribes in the 19th Century. Russia was just developing a deterent. Just as the use of Nerve Gas was detered in World War Two and Germany never used it's stores of Sarin Gas despite losing the War for fear of retaliation. You still don't see how We were more of a threat to the Russians than they were to us. It is movie good guyitis. You can't ever seem to see America as a threat to other countries. 23080. godlessclif - 6/17/2002 11:34:12 AM No this is not the Onion, it is the Washington Post and it is true. Bob Barr sues Larry Flynt, James Carville and Bill Clinton Bob Barr has just figured out all the stupid things he said during the Clinton Impeachment about shooting watermelons, shooting targets with Bill and Hillaries face on them and Vince Foster being murdered have hurt his reputation with the voters. Flynt pointing out he was divorced three times and got one of his ex-wives an abortion so he would not have to pay child support have not helped him either. I am not sure what Carville called him. Maybe a draft dodger, he was to short to fight in Vietnam[4ft 11']. I guess he will stay off Crossfire now. Barr's lawyer? why VRWC mouthpiece Larry Klayman. He should have hired Ken Starr. 23081. concerned - 6/17/2002 1:07:08 PM godless correction dept: 23082. Wombat - 6/17/2002 1:11:47 PM Clif: 23083. concerned - 6/17/2002 1:12:31 PM This would have gone in the narrowly and inaptly named 'Enron' thread, which should have been properly retitled, as I repeatedly suggested, instead of being yanked. Oh, well. 23084. Wombat - 6/17/2002 1:15:08 PM Jeffrey, Lord Amherst, presided over the victorious end of the French and Indian War. He also refused to lead British forces in North America against the rebelling colonists, when the command was offered to him. 23085. concerned - 6/17/2002 1:20:43 PM Wombat - 23086. concerned - 6/17/2002 1:22:31 PM ...North America.... I need more coffee, it seems. 23087. judithathome - 6/17/2002 1:24:40 PM Yes, I do think I recall the stories of Custer stationing soldiers with measles and chicken pox in the lead positions during his attacks. 23088. Wombat - 6/17/2002 1:52:31 PM Judith: 23089. godlessclif - 6/17/2002 2:30:20 PM Is this another Holocost denial position. "The Trail of Tears" never happened. Hardly a current event. Maybe we could dredge up the save the whales guy versus the Indians? 23090. Wombat - 6/17/2002 2:33:21 PM Clif: 23091. CalGal - 6/17/2002 2:38:36 PM I just googled on Custer and chicken pox; didn't find even an urban legend about it. 23092. godlessclif - 6/17/2002 2:41:56 PM Lets start an urban legend, or would that be a rural legend about it. 23093. godlessclif - 6/17/2002 2:43:47 PM another freedom bites the dust The supreme court voted six to three that cops can search people on buses without a warrant and with no miranda warning. i guess they think now if you don't owna car you have no rights. 23094. dbltyme - 6/17/2002 2:56:52 PM g c - the only saving grace is that I won't be around long enough for epilogues to be written on what we've lost since 9/11. 23095. sakonige - 6/17/2002 3:00:28 PM concerned - 23096. dbltyme - 6/17/2002 3:05:30 PM The oddity is the populace taking it all without a peep...by chance, because of little knowledge to begin with about how we got those freedoms? That all of us must agree these changes are necessary because of current 'threats' against us is highly arguable. 23097. godlessclif - 6/17/2002 3:08:46 PM US drops Thrips Palmi. The Thrips Palmi plague was dropped over Cuba during one of its worst economic and food crises ever. Who dropped it? Alpha 66 militia? Brothers to the rescue. Radio Havana says it was the CIA. The Thrips Palmi or melon thrips infests a wide variety of crops. Vegetables such as cucurbits, legumes and solanaceous crops are preferred. Although peppers and eggplants can support massive numbers, populations do not establish on tomatoes. Strawberries are also not preferred. Melon thrips will infest many species of weeds including composites, legumes and nightshades among others. 23098. judithathome - 6/17/2002 3:11:56 PM It would be useful if you could provide a source for this. 23099. judithathome - 6/17/2002 3:16:46 PM I just googled on Custer and chicken pox; didn't find even an urban legend about it. 23100. godlessclif - 6/17/2002 3:48:18 PM Now the American Indian tribes are dying of Diabetes. McDonalds Revenge death of indian tribes by feeding them greaseburgers and sugar filled Ketchup and killer fries. 23101. Wombat - 6/17/2002 3:51:11 PM Judith: 23102. judithathome - 6/17/2002 3:55:33 PM Wombat, I agree. 23103. jexster - 6/17/2002 5:10:15 PM For the crime of Bitch Bitin in the Second Degree: 23104. jexster - 6/17/2002 5:10:51 PM 600+ days for time served and good behavior 23105. concerned - 6/17/2002 6:54:36 PM If 90% of the Jews in the world died from lack of resistance to some disease, would you consider it more, or less, tragic if the remaining 10% were slaughtered in a genocide? 23106. concerned - 6/17/2002 8:00:44 PM Re. 23100 - 23107. sakonige - 6/17/2002 8:22:59 PM Message # 23106 23108. jexster - 6/17/2002 8:36:37 PM That last is ELOQUENT!!!! 23109. jexster - 6/17/2002 8:39:35 PM 23110. jexster - 6/17/2002 8:41:54 PM "I'll always remember John racing to catch a heinous criminal, red lights and sirens going," Corrales said outside the church. "And that was the last emotion he ever felt on this earth." 23111. robertjayb - 6/17/2002 9:02:15 PM I can't recall the name but she does look familiar... 23112. dbltyme - 6/18/2002 11:29:15 AM Requiem..Rest in Peace Scott Shugar who died in an accident over the weekend off California coast. His work for Slate, in compiling TODAY'S PAPERS, was brilliant. 50 years young is too soon to pass but reminds us tomorrow is guaranteed to no one. Strength to his family. 23113. CalGal - 6/18/2002 12:55:50 PM 23114. concerned - 6/18/2002 1:58:15 PM Re. 23107 - 23115. Wombat - 6/18/2002 2:06:32 PM Concerned: 23116. concerned - 6/18/2002 2:11:41 PM re. 23115 - 23117. judithathome - 6/18/2002 2:14:03 PM Missionaries in Hawaii almost wiped out a population; of course, it was inadvertent but still.... 23118. bubbaette - 6/18/2002 2:14:07 PM Wounded Knee. 23119. Wombat - 6/18/2002 2:15:37 PM As Concerned hits his usual sites for confirmation...or denial. 23120. bubbaette - 6/18/2002 2:18:01 PM Trail of Tears. 23121. judithathome - 6/18/2002 2:19:13 PM Oh yes, they did that in Hawaii, too...but in the name of God, not Andy Jackson. 23122. judithathome - 6/18/2002 3:12:26 PM Police Release New Details In Kidnapping 23123. dbltyme - 6/18/2002 4:13:13 PM Yowza! How to win friends, etc....Thanks to a deal w/Pataki & Giuliani, the NYTimes will take choice midtown property at tens of millions below market value - and city taxpayers will foot the difference..... 23124. dbltyme - 6/18/2002 4:25:40 PM To use the power of "eminent domain" to first condemn then take away for profit the real estate of private citizens is nothing but naked greed and haven't we seen enough of that? Seems like a refresher in both personal and corporate ethics might be in order. Is EVERYONE to whom we point our children for example on the bloody almighty take? Like the Roman Empire, we rot from the inside out. 23125. Rama - 6/18/2002 4:31:38 PM So far, nobody has made any concrete claim of such. 23126. iiibbb - 6/18/2002 5:20:59 PM Message # 23107 23127. iiibbb - 6/18/2002 5:23:19 PM 23128. iiibbb - 6/18/2002 5:24:04 PM http://www.mustangmods.com/publish/TheStang/funny/Divorce_Sept_11_Style.jpg 23129. iiibbb - 6/18/2002 5:32:17 PM MEGA cold war links 23130. iiibbb - 6/18/2002 5:35:46 PM Read an interesting article in the magazine Military History which had a brief article about the 2000 year history of biowarfare... 23131. robertjayb - 6/19/2002 11:34:55 AM Up, Up, and Away Again... 23132. robertjayb - 6/19/2002 1:28:34 PM The Queen is not pleased. Off with their shirts! 23133. judithathome - 6/19/2002 1:44:35 PM Newsflash: 23134. CalGal - 6/19/2002 1:54:23 PM Are you being funny again, Judith? Or are you unaware that addiction is physical and not prone to morality judgments? 23135. ronski - 6/19/2002 1:57:03 PM There is a volitional element, however. There are alternatives to taking drugs, even for a fullblown addict, much less someone who is simply prone to it. 23136. CalGal - 6/19/2002 2:04:53 PM Ronski, 23137. ronski - 6/19/2002 2:15:12 PM By simply prone I mean genetically at risk. I disagree there is no evidence to suggest that all addicts can quit. I would say there is no proof that all addicts can quit. There is proof that many addicts can, however. 23138. judithathome - 6/19/2002 2:31:29 PM Or are you unaware that addiction is physical and not prone to morality judgments? 23139. CalGal - 6/19/2002 2:31:46 PM By simply prone I mean genetically at risk. 23140. judithathome - 6/19/2002 2:33:39 PM Who is saying that everyone can quit? 23141. CalGal - 6/19/2002 2:35:05 PM 23142. judithathome - 6/19/2002 2:38:23 PM How can you say I am wrong when I say "NOT ALL" people are helpless...I'll try your tack: 23143. Indiana Jones - 6/19/2002 2:55:49 PM Or are you unaware that addiction is physical and not prone to morality judgments? 23144. Raskolnikov - 6/19/2002 3:00:45 PM Inability to quit doesn't force people to start taking addictive substances in the first place. As such, individual choice still plays a role and addicts have partial moral responsibility. 23145. CalGal - 6/19/2002 3:09:22 PM Are you saying that for something to be a moral issue some nonphysical cause must be involved? 23146. ronski - 6/19/2002 3:16:54 PM I don't look at drug use particularly as a moral issue. If someone uses drugs (in small quantities) and manages not to harm others in the process, I don't seen much if any immorality in that. 23147. arkymalarky - 6/19/2002 3:23:57 PM Much addiction can occur in stages of psychological difficulty and plenty of addictions are psychological, and people without classic addictive personalities can become addicted and then unaddicted to various things in various degrees. I would like to see even one legitimate site that says unequivocally with evidence that all addictions are physical. 23148. ivan osokin - 6/19/2002 3:28:39 PM even if there is a physical nature to addiction (i'm not disagreeing there may be), this does not justify the aggressive marketing and greed-driven industries that prey upon those with addictions. people addicted to alchohol or cigarettes or coffee will find ample support and plentiful supply for their addiction by the companies that supply the substance to which they are addicted...now we're seeing addiction to drugs that were designed (we hope) to help people (painkillers, anti-depressants and the like), and some doctors have taken to prescribing them regardless of whether there's a real need. the bottom line matters more for many, as some of the recent lawsuits against tobacco company marketing executives has shown. 23149. CalGal - 6/19/2002 3:32:51 PM Inability to quit doesn't force people to start taking addictive substances in the first place. As such, individual choice still plays a role and addicts have partial moral responsibility. 23150. Rama - 6/19/2002 4:23:54 PM To hold an addict even partially responsible for choosing to have a drink in this society or use valium because the doctor first ordered it is to make "partial moral responsibility" so broad as to be meaningless. 23151. godlessclif - 6/20/2002 6:43:16 AM Drugs in the news Did any of your guy read "EREWHON" by Samuel Butler? He satirizes the moral judgementalism on disease by simply reversing the logic. In the far away land of EREWHON a cold is a misdemeanor and pneumonia is a felony. Shoplifting or embezzelment on the other hand is not a cause for moral condemnation, but a reason to call a medical man, a "straightener" to prescibe a cure. Butler's 19th century term "Straightener" is what we call a behavioral psychiatrist. In the novel a women with asthma pretends to be an alcoholic to hide or explain her symptoms because in EREWHON dipsomania is not a criminal physical condition but a medically treatable moral failing. While asthma can get you 25 to life in prison. 23152. godlessclif - 6/20/2002 7:13:22 AM I do not beleive alcohol is addictive except to a small part of the population that is succeptable. Banning alcohol would be like banning strawberries because some people are allergic to them and break out in hives. I also beleive about 90% of the people in Alcoholic Anonymous are not addicted to alcohol, they are just people who have psychological problems they are self medicating with alcohol because Prozac and the medical visits needed to get Prozac prescriptions are to expensive. 23153. godlessclif - 6/20/2002 7:13:51 AM Well, that's news to me! 23154. rubberducky - 6/20/2002 2:07:38 PM 23155. iiibbb - 6/20/2002 5:52:15 PM Just think... if it hit the right place our troubles* would be over 23156. CalGal - 6/20/2002 6:08:20 PM To not hold addicts even partially responsible for their addiction is to make the term responsible meaningless. 23157. CalGal - 6/20/2002 6:10:45 PM 23158. ronski - 6/20/2002 6:12:25 PM I was rooting for purple the last time. Glad to see if finally made it. 23159. CalGal - 6/20/2002 6:19:20 PM I can't remember who I voted for. 23160. Rama - 6/20/2002 6:35:49 PM If we were to not hold them legally responsible for any crimes (short of possession) they committed, it would render the term meaningless. 23161. msivorytower - 6/21/2002 8:31:10 AM I don't quite know where to post this, so I picked a possible place. 23162. TabouliJones - 6/21/2002 8:46:47 AM MsIt, 23163. arkymalarky - 6/21/2002 12:28:32 PM I agree with Msit (and with TJ--I love reading her in here again). It's better to revamp our immigration system, even to the point of requiring everyone to reapply for their status here, than to begin messing with civil liberties. I haven't said much because there isn't much to be said, considering it involves two unelected (sorry--can't help the dig at the 2000 election process) bodies of the three. The executive has stretched itself with the help of the judiciary and using events of 9/11 in ways that I find very disturbing. 23164. arkymalarky - 6/21/2002 12:28:52 PM bodies=branches 23165. CalGal - 6/21/2002 12:40:14 PM I'm all for closing down immigration and requiring everyone to reapply. I'm not sure which detainees you're is talking about--the ones that have been locked up since 9/11 that were picked up in a roundup? If so, I agree. If the guy suspected of the dirty bomb, I think it's fine to lock him up. Ditto the Al Qaeda guys in Gitmo--although I think we should start long-term assessments of what we're going to do with them. It's not like we can do a prisoner exchange. 23166. msivorytower - 6/21/2002 3:15:44 PM I'm talking about those 380+ souls being held at Quantanamo Bay from the initial sweeps over in Afganistan and elsewhere. There's some evidence that some of these people were humanitarian aid workers sympathetic to al Qaeda but not part of the organization. 23167. OhioSTOPAS - 6/21/2002 3:26:06 PM Bret Michael Edmunds, the transient wanted for questioning in the Elizabeth Smart disappearance, has been captured in West Virginia. Story here. 23168. iiibbb - 6/21/2002 11:34:18 PM I am torn... because I agree that we've got a bunch of people who are in limbo... but then again, if we're going to win this war on terror we're going to have to be willing to accept that we're going to break a few eggs. It sucks, but lest we forget what these Islamist fuckers want to do to the U.S. 23169. iiibbb - 6/21/2002 11:38:34 PM And no... I basically don't think that people who aren't American citizens have the same rights as us... 23170. iiibbb - 6/21/2002 11:39:33 PM PC speech suspended for effect... 23171. sakonige - 6/21/2002 11:48:13 PM You made your point. 23172. joezan - 6/21/2002 11:51:43 PM I'm hearing that loud and clear, ib. 23173. Snowowl - 6/22/2002 12:24:33 AM That would be the same Australian Prime Minister who with great moral clarity announced that Iraqi refugee boat people were throwing their children overboard - an accusation later found to have no truth in it whatsoever. 23174. msivorytower - 6/22/2002 9:35:23 AM i3b3 23175. joezan - 6/22/2002 9:51:50 AM But Snowowl - where's the outrage? 23176. CalGal - 6/22/2002 9:59:11 AM Gawd, I hate it when I lose posts. 23177. judithathome - 6/22/2002 10:04:06 AM although I think they should have the opportunity to prove they aren't involved. 23178. CalGal - 6/22/2002 10:06:53 AM Paperwork from an organization (a non-terrorist one) establishing that they worked there. A picture of them aiding others. Whatever. I don't think it's likely they have any such proof, but if they don't, it's pretty likely they aren't actually humanitarians. And if they're supportive of Al Qaeda, I see no reason that this, coupled with their location at the time they were taken prisoner, is enough. 23179. msivorytower - 6/22/2002 10:38:46 AM Cal 23180. iiibbb - 6/22/2002 10:41:30 AM It seems to me that maybe in the case of terrorism... there should be no such thing as a little bit guilty. Sympathizers are as bad as the terrorists because they don't put a stop to it. 23181. iiibbb - 6/22/2002 10:43:40 AM If they're interred one way for them to gain my trust is to start providing information. If they don't want to provide information because they sympathize with the islamist cause then they're on the wrong side. 23182. judithathome - 6/22/2002 10:53:53 AM Yes, I would think it would fall under "aiding and abetting" if you knew and didn't alert the authorities that something was going to happen. 23183. CalGal - 6/22/2002 10:55:16 AM Being an al queda sympathizer is not enough in my book to be held for years in internment. 23184. msivorytower - 6/22/2002 10:56:04 AM It seems to me that maybe in the case of terrorism... there should be no such thing as a little bit guilty. Sympathizers are as bad as the terrorists because they don't put a stop to it. 23185. iiibbb - 6/22/2002 11:01:16 AM If they are... they are making a case that they are not real sympathizers. I think in those cases the US would probably try to establish their true role... by looking up papers that show them employeed by an aid organization not associated with Al-Queda. 23186. msivorytower - 6/22/2002 11:01:31 AM Do you mean charges in the legal or military sense? How does one charge them militarily? 23187. CalGal - 6/22/2002 11:06:41 AM These should be invoked at the very least. 23188. iiibbb - 6/22/2002 11:09:20 AM These people might be morally guilty but they aren't legally guilty unless they were co-conspirators. In addition, if they aren't American citizens they just "might" not see the acts as terrorism. 23189. msivorytower - 6/22/2002 11:09:39 AM Well then they should DO IT. If they can't then they need to release those against whom we have insufficient evidence. Then we should tail the hell out of them and their affiliations. 23190. msivorytower - 6/22/2002 11:11:45 AM Excuse, my last post was to Cal. 23191. iiibbb - 6/22/2002 11:13:09 AM I see your points too MsIT... I'm not unsympathetic... we should do what we can to filter out true innocents. Whatever filters we put in place will not be 100% 30 years from now I know we will discover yet another person we threw away the key on who had nothing to do with it. 23192. iiibbb - 6/22/2002 11:16:53 AM I wonder how long the debate in congress on who to declare 'war' on would last. 23193. judithathome - 6/22/2002 11:18:38 AM Probably longer than the actual war...but really, who would we declare war on? The Middle East in toto? 23194. dbltyme - 6/22/2002 6:45:02 PM l. No employee has 'whistle-blower' protection. 23195. iiibbb - 6/22/2002 11:34:02 PM Fuck... they're back. 23196. robertjayb - 6/23/2002 12:36:46 AM Oscar Mayer Weinermobile busted as security threat (CapTimes) 23197. Greystoke - 6/23/2002 12:51:33 AM Woman Sues on Mermaid Parade Arrest 23198. Greystoke - 6/23/2002 1:00:18 AM robertjayb, 23199. robertjayb - 6/23/2002 1:44:17 AM I agree. And the wurst news is they have six more of them. 23200. joezan - 6/23/2002 7:53:16 AM A very strange story: 23201. bubbaette - 6/23/2002 12:59:17 PM I don't think we can just have a 27 foot long weiner tooling around America unchallenged. Imagine the unrealistic expectations it will foment among the womenfolk. 23202. CalGal - 6/23/2002 1:04:52 PM Ms, I posted an article on the differing treatment of various terrorist suspects (citizens and non) over in Social Issues and would be interested in your (and anyone else's) comments. 23203. robertjayb - 6/23/2002 4:34:51 PM Drunkards and Fornicators Object to Eulogy... 23204. jexster - 6/24/2002 3:00:41 PM Bush Shifts Focus from Bush Bitches to Bush Bitches 23205. jexster - 6/24/2002 3:12:07 PM Superfly? 23206. Property of Jesus - 6/24/2002 5:40:49 PM Evidence of Martha Stewart's stock caper 23207. judithathome - 6/24/2002 6:13:53 PM Bus Crash Kills 5 in Texas 23208. godlessclif - 6/24/2002 8:29:28 PM Bush Regime environmentalism. Got a swamp, got landfill, your building condos. Bush rapes everglades 23209. robertjayb - 6/24/2002 9:57:45 PM R.I.P., Politically Incorrect, an Arianna column... 23210. robertjayb - 6/25/2002 1:59:33 PM Maybe now he will get his own TV show... 23211. joezan - 6/25/2002 2:12:31 PM Hey - it worked for Ozzie fans... 23212. robertjayb - 6/25/2002 3:47:01 PM "Off with their pants!" said the King. 23213. judithathome - 6/26/2002 10:10:24 AM Hope no one has long distance with WorldCom/MCI... 23214. jexster - 6/26/2002 11:36:13 AM No I'm getting ripped off by ATT 23215. jexster - 6/26/2002 11:37:06 AM 23216. jexster - 6/26/2002 11:39:37 AM Justice Investigation Expanding to Enron Investment Bankers 23217. arkymalarky - 6/26/2002 11:51:27 AM Well I'm still on MCI but I never use it. One of these days I've got to switch, but it won't be to ATT. 23218. thoughtful - 6/26/2002 3:09:32 PM This just in from CNN: -- Federal appeals court rules Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because of words 'under God,' according to The Associated Press. 23219. robertjayb - 6/26/2002 3:15:21 PM Alert mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging snake handlers. Where is that Bennett guy when we need him? The court is in San Francisco. Wouldn't you just know it? 23220. Jamie R - 6/26/2002 3:15:39 PM I didn't know those words were added in 1954. 23221. CalGal - 6/26/2002 3:21:56 PM CNN Piece 23222. judithathome - 6/26/2002 3:26:23 PM I remember being in school when we made the change. It's always seemed awkward to me since I learned it the other way. 23223. robertjayb - 6/26/2002 3:29:49 PM Those fine Americans on Fox TV are airing the name and phone number of the judge who wrote the opinion. 23224. judithathome - 6/26/2002 3:31:31 PM Hey...fair and balanced, right? 23225. DanDillon - 6/26/2002 3:38:48 PM "Nobody bless America" as it should be. 23226. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 3:38:56 PM The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said the phrase amounts to a government endorsement of religion in violation of the Constitution's Establishment Clause, which requires a separation of church and state. 23227. thoughtful - 6/26/2002 4:18:57 PM iiibbb 23228. CalGal - 6/26/2002 4:31:01 PM Agnostics, too. For that matter, if it's no problem for Muslims to say "God", then why don't we say "under Allah" for a while? 23229. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 4:36:15 PM dude... you're talking to a social libertarian here. However I also think there's a big difference between allowing a manger scene to be erected at city hall and shooting women who have sex outside of their marriage in a soccer stadium. 23230. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 4:40:59 PM It's also no problem for Pagans, agnostics, and otherwise to just say the same pledge sans 'under god'... sometimes I wonder why this kind of thing even needs to go to court. 23231. CalGal - 6/26/2002 4:46:44 PM the other half is not being so fucking uptight when people express their religion. 23232. Raskolnikov - 6/26/2002 4:50:33 PM He won't squirm on this. If he bothers to comment, he will condemn it, which will be popular with his constituency. 23233. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 4:53:33 PM I bet the 9th circuit gets shot down by the Supremes..... 23234. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 4:56:21 PM The simple answer is for anyone who objects to 'under god' to simply not say it. No big whoop. 23235. CalGal - 6/26/2002 5:06:43 PM He won't squirm on this. If he bothers to comment, he will condemn it, which will be popular with his constituency. 23236. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 5:06:48 PM I guess my litmus test isn't whether a religious idea is expressed, but the degree of coercion. 23237. thoughtful - 6/26/2002 5:08:00 PM It has nothing to do with expressing religion. It has everything to do with the state requiring people -- in this case students in public school -- to express fealty to a specific religion -- in this case, monotheism. 23238. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 5:09:32 PM the phrase 'under god' is completely and uterly optional... do we really need to hold peoples' hands on this one? 23239. jexster - 6/26/2002 5:25:03 PM Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. 23240. glendajean - 6/26/2002 5:53:43 PM Maybe somebody else pointed this out, but the words under God were not added to the Pledge until the 1950s as a result of Cold War politics. 23241. judithathome - 6/26/2002 6:12:23 PM The simple answer is for anyone who objects to 'under god' to simply not say it. No big whoop. 23242. JJBiener - 6/26/2002 6:25:14 PM Judith - This is not one nation under God for everyone so why should it be included? 23243. judithathome - 6/26/2002 6:58:49 PM Well, JJ, at the very least they should make you send back the handbook! ;-) 23244. CalGal - 6/26/2002 7:15:06 PM Senate votes 99-0 to condemn decision 23245. judithathome - 6/26/2002 7:17:06 PM They're scared shitless NOT to.... 23246. Al D - 6/26/2002 7:21:01 PM Nice to see JJ on the Mote. Perhaps some of you who favor the 9th Circuit Court's take on the Pledge could point out to me what in the Constitution they have in mind. Nice to see you, Judith, but not as rare as JJ. 23247. JJBiener - 6/26/2002 7:31:33 PM Judith - I post occasionally in the Israel and Palestine thread. It is a subject near and dear to my heart. 23248. Al D - 6/26/2002 7:36:37 PM Is it possible that the Liberals on this Forum want the Democratic Party to cheer the 9th Circuit for this decision? How sweet it is if all the Dems jump on your bandwagon. Most people in America are quite conservative when it comes to issues such as this, even though they vote year after year the Democrat ticket. 23249. judithathome - 6/26/2002 7:42:20 PM Hey, I don't see any Democrats in Congress doing anything dofferently than the republicans. Face it, there really is no Democratic Party. 23250. judithathome - 6/26/2002 7:43:39 PM ...any differently on this issue 23251. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 7:49:52 PM An unbelievably stupid decision by the 9th circuit. 23252. JJBiener - 6/26/2002 7:50:15 PM Al - I have been following this on the news. No one expects this decision to stand. If it makes it to the Supremes, the expectation is that it will be overturned unanimously. Democrats won't dare support the decision. It would be political suicide and they know it. 23253. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 7:52:38 PM This obviously strengthens Bush. The decision can't make him any him happier than if the 9th Circuit sent a valentine and a sloppy, wet kiss. 23254. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 7:55:21 PM Along with that Valentine, the court should have sent Bush a note saying they were concerned the President looked as if he wouldn't get any of his judicial nominees on the bench, and wanted to give him a helping hand. 23255. CalGal - 6/26/2002 7:57:31 PM Pincher, 23256. judithathome - 6/26/2002 8:01:22 PM Tucker Carlson on Crossfire just now: "There really was a Communist threat in the 1950s (when that phrase was added)." 23257. CalGal - 6/26/2002 8:06:40 PM Did any of you actually read the decision? 23258. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 8:10:52 PM What if the Supreme Court upholds it? 23259. CalGal - 6/26/2002 8:13:27 PM Four justices (Scalia, Reinquist, Thomas, and Kennedy) immediately come to mind as ones who are certain votes against it. 23260. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 8:14:56 PM Did any of you actually read the decision? 23261. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 8:17:58 PM The decision cites a fair number of recent Supreme Court decisions in support 23262. CalGal - 6/26/2002 8:18:56 PM I wasn't being sarcastic--as you note, I'm not a lawyer. But I've been reading it, and I haven't seen any indication that they just pulled this decision out of their ass. They cite all recent Supreme Court decisions and apply this reasoning to the Pledge. 23263. CalGal - 6/26/2002 8:20:00 PM In support of what? Separation of church and state? 23264. CalGal - 6/26/2002 8:21:15 PM Also school prayer--sorry, left that off. 23265. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 8:34:59 PM I wasn't being sarcastic--as you note, I'm not a lawyer. But I've been reading it, and I haven't seen any indication that they just pulled this decision out of their ass. 23266. CalGal - 6/26/2002 8:46:54 PM You don't think the cite of striking down the Alabama statute for mediation of voluntary silence or school prayer, the cite of forbidding prayer before a public high school football game, and the declaration that it is coercive to require primary and secondary students to choose between participating in a religious ceremony or protesting, and O'Connor's declaration that The second and more direct infringement is government endorsement or disapproval of religion. Endorsement sends a message to nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they ar insiders, favored members of the political community. 23267. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 8:51:51 PM Obviously, they are. When I last posted, I was still reading the "standing" c section, not the section on the "establishment clause." 23268. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 8:55:59 PM But again, I'm not sure how a layman is suppose to evaluate the legal basis of the court's decision. Even a lawyer not familiar with the numerous case studies surrounding the "establishment clause" probably would defer. 23269. CalGal - 6/26/2002 8:58:21 PM Ah. I was confused. 23270. PincherMartin - 6/26/2002 9:01:09 PM Everyone thinks it will be overturned, it's clear--Tribe was sure it would be, if the Ninth Court didn't reverse itself. 23271. CalGal - 6/26/2002 9:01:55 PM True. 23272. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 9:27:35 PM The second and more direct infringement is government endorsement or disapproval of religion. Endorsement sends a message to nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they ar insiders, favored members of the political community. 23273. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 9:30:12 PM those cases involved prayer... 23274. CalGal - 6/26/2002 9:34:47 PM The Court could just as easily argue that the primary purpose of the oath is an expression of loyalty, not an expression of religious affiliation. 23275. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 9:46:05 PM Cal, 23276. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 9:46:15 PM Message # 23241 23277. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 9:53:47 PM money to buy lunch at school and the money has the word "god" on it (as it does)? Will the government have to change the form of money because having "In God We Trust" is an establishment of religion? 23278. wonkers2 - 6/26/2002 10:02:18 PM The original Pledge of Allegiance is good enough for me. I thought it was a mistake when Congress changed it, and have resisted saying the inserted words ever since. Judging by the 99-0 vote in Senators are just as political and phony, in some cases, as they were in 1954. And I'm sure the conservatives on the Supreme Court who say they love the original version and intent of the Constitution will all vote to overturn the 9th Circuit. Consistency isn't their forte, as they have demonstrated in other recent cases. 23279. iiibbb - 6/26/2002 10:04:37 PM As a relative purist when it comes to the constitution, I'd say dropping the 'under god' is preferable... 23280. CalGal - 6/26/2002 10:49:27 PM Ms, 23281. wonkers2 - 6/26/2002 10:57:38 PM Me too! 23282. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 11:11:32 PM Cal, 23283. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 11:12:13 PM betting... 23284. CalGal - 6/26/2002 11:15:34 PM I'm interested in reading up on any analyses of the decision. 23285. joezan - 6/26/2002 11:22:05 PM 23286. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 11:28:53 PM Cal 23287. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 11:29:19 PM Hey! who turned on the red? 23288. judithathome - 6/26/2002 11:30:26 PM Here's a nice little quote from 15 years ago... 23289. joezan - 6/26/2002 11:30:43 PM You're getting red? 23290. CalGal - 6/26/2002 11:31:18 PM 23291. judithathome - 6/26/2002 11:31:23 PM Joezan and his rats did it. 23292. joezan - 6/26/2002 11:31:45 PM ..and thank God they do, judith! 23293. judithathome - 6/26/2002 11:33:24 PM ;-) 23294. joezan - 6/26/2002 11:33:46 PM I closed the red, and it was ok in preview - I swear. 23295. CalGal - 6/26/2002 11:34:44 PM Ms, 23296. CalGal - 6/26/2002 11:35:11 PM Ha. That would be anti-Communist agenda. 23297. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 11:36:55 PM Btw, 23298. CalGal - 6/26/2002 11:40:03 PM That would be cool. BTW, the saying has been on our coins around for longer than 1956 (not that you were saying otherwise), if this quick google has any validity: 23299. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 11:43:11 PM Cal, yes. 23300. msivorytower - 6/26/2002 11:45:03 PM The Star Spangled Banner! Yet another invidious encroachment of God into government. Soon singing that will be all but a memory in history books (and not for public school children either). 23301. CalGal - 6/26/2002 11:52:14 PM The thing that bugs me about it is that while it certainly is trivial, the underlying assumption behind the support is "Only bad people would ever deny God." What I object to is the prejudice, not the use of the word. 23302. robertjayb - 6/27/2002 12:03:22 AM Daniel Sickles killed the son of Francis Scott Key. Shot him down in the street for messin' with his woman. 23303. robertjayb - 6/27/2002 12:08:34 AM Web site of the pledge petitioner... 23304. TabouliJones - 6/27/2002 12:19:34 AM Here is an interesting take on the pledge decision, from a law professor 23305. clydefo - 6/27/2002 12:28:23 AM 23306. CalGal - 6/27/2002 12:36:07 AM TJ--he's basically saying the same thing that the dissenting prof did, which is that it would be a huge hassle to change it, so let's drop it. But he's not attacking the basic argument itself. 23307. TabouliJones - 6/27/2002 12:55:08 AM Calgal, 23308. TabouliJones - 6/27/2002 1:08:03 AM By the way, Slate's usual court reporter, argues that the decision misapplies Supreme Court doctrine (here) -- that the words "under God" do not "amount to a prayer, an endorsement, or religious proselytizing" and, therefore, aren't unconstitional by SCOTUS standards. Sounds sensible enough to me, but I haven't given the matter much thought, or read the decision in issue. 23309. CalGal - 6/27/2002 1:38:40 AM He basically agrees with the logic of the decision, but contends that it is an impractical, impolitic decision. 23310. CalGal - 6/27/2002 1:49:11 AM TJ, 23311. TabouliJones - 6/27/2002 2:01:27 AM Well, yeah. I thought I'd just said that. 23312. TabouliJones - 6/27/2002 2:07:46 AM And Lithwick is saying that the SCOTUS standards leave some room for basically trivial state traditions that allow for some mild state sanctioned expressions accepting of monotheism and nodding towards the Judeo-Christian roots of the country. 23313. TabouliJones - 6/27/2002 3:31:08 AM On the off chance that anyone cares: 23314. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 6:28:06 AM As one Motie pointed out early on in this discussion, right or wrong (wrong, I think) this "under God"-is-unconstitutional decision is a great boon to Republicans. Democrats will criticize the decision too, but they can never beat Republicans in a God-fearing contest. 23315. iiibbb - 6/27/2002 8:29:02 AM I'm not sure if it's worse to take such an innocuous thing as 'under god' to court... or to twist it into yet another opportunity to divide republicans and democrats. 23316. iiibbb - 6/27/2002 8:33:21 AM As an independent... I resent it when people like Ohio make every issue a republican/democrat partisan division. Forcing partisan behavior makes it really hard for indpendents to make decisions because our representatives are coerced into follow party lines instead of their consciences. 23317. thoughtful - 6/27/2002 9:02:38 AM Goodwin who ruled it unconstitutional was appointed by Nixon. 23318. judithathome - 6/27/2002 9:50:08 AM iiibbb: 23319. iiibbb - 6/27/2002 10:06:24 AM I'm not annoyed by Ohio... I'm annoyed with any impulse to describe every issue on the planet in republican/decomrat lights. 23320. Daniel Sickles - 6/27/2002 10:12:51 AM Ohio is merely pointing out that it will have political ramifications. Given that Daschle was up and calling it "nuts" in seconds, and conservative wags were immediately prescribing use of the decision for the mid-terms (as well as the more fitting issue of deadlock in the Senate judiciary Committee), he's absolutely correct. The decision may be well thought out, it may be amiss, but it does have political ramifications that, on balance, benefit the GOP. 23321. Daniel Sickles - 6/27/2002 10:13:05 AM As the Post observed, If the court were writing a parody, rather than deciding an actual case, it could hardly have produced a more provocative holding than striking down the Pledge of Allegiance while this country is at war. We believe in strict separation between church and state, but the pledge is hardly a particular danger spot crying out for judicial policing. And having a court strike it down can only serve to generate unnecessary political battles and create a fundraising bonanza for the many groups who will rush to its defense. Oh, yes, it can also invite a reversal, and that could mean establishing a precedent that sanctions a broader range of official religious expression than the pledge itself. 23322. CalGal - 6/27/2002 10:21:11 AM 23323. CalGal - 6/27/2002 10:25:09 AM We believe in strict separation between church and state, but the pledge is hardly a particular danger spot crying out for judicial policing. 23324. Daniel Sickles - 6/27/2002 10:31:56 AM Prayer was prayer, solely, and thus, was more vulnerable. 23325. CalGal - 6/27/2002 10:52:58 AM a unifying hallmark of good citizenship and solidarity. 23326. joezan - 6/27/2002 11:25:22 AM Supreme Court Approves School Vouchers, Random Drug Tests 23327. jexster - 6/27/2002 1:31:28 PM The prez of the Elk Grove School Dist. rightly and rigtheously pointed out that the pledge brought the kiddies together as one pack of rug rats under GOD....God damn it! 23328. jexster - 6/27/2002 1:32:25 PM SO all you Motier enemies of the cross of Christ can bite my Old Glory. 23329. jexster - 6/27/2002 1:32:59 PM Hymn sing tonite in R&P 23330. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 1:37:33 PM Among critics of yesterday's "under God"-is-unconstitutional decision was Senator Joseph Lieberman: 23331. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 1:41:35 PM I heard on the radio that the House and the Senate both took time out today to unanimously recite the Pledge of Allegiance, WITH HEADS BOWED. Maybe I mis-heard the part about bowed heads; I hope so. Surely you shouldn't have to pray in public - to a flag, no less - to hold public office. 23332. robertjayb - 6/27/2002 1:49:47 PM Where, oh where is H. L. Mencken when we really, really need him? 23333. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 6:35:10 PM Judge stays his own ruling 23334. CalGal - 6/27/2002 6:42:13 PM I was wondering that, too. I just read today that it wasn't the full court. 23335. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 7:58:24 PM Pincher: The courts of the U.S. Courts of Appeals decide cases with three-judge panels. The panel is selected at random for each case. 23336. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 8:00:57 PM I think a Court of Appeals by a vote of all the judges can decide to take a case directly to an en banc decision, and bypass hearing and decision by a three-judge panel. I believe that's what was done in the recent University of Michigan affirmative action case. But that's rare. 23337. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:02:30 PM That's a very clear explanation, Ohio. Thanks. 23338. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 8:04:42 PM By the way, regarding my Message # 23331, it appears that NPR got it wrong or I heard it wrong. I watched the news and the Congressional reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance was done in the usual head-up way. 23339. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:10:32 PM Maybe if it comes to that we could just rearrange the stars into the shape of a swastika and be done with it. 23340. judithathome - 6/27/2002 8:12:00 PM I wonder how long before we have to pass a pee test to shop? Or to attend sporting events? 23341. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:15:20 PM I just read this New York Times article that the Supreme Court decided in a close vote to allow public voucher money to be spent at religious schools. 23342. CalGal - 6/27/2002 8:18:45 PM Pincher, I think the SC will overturn on the political grounds that everyone mentions. But I don't think their decision on the voucher issue is necessarily indicative of what the swing justices would think of the Pledge of Allegiance. 23343. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:22:16 PM I really am too mad about both decisions to even talk about them. 23344. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:23:00 PM CalGal -- 23345. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:23:11 PM You Libertarians had best be watching developments closely. The GOP is rapidly becoming your #1 enemy. 23346. CalGal - 6/27/2002 8:24:30 PM Yes, the drug testing decision really bothers me. I dislike the vouchers one as well, but the whole public school debate is so screwy that I've given up being annoyed at it. 23347. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:25:49 PM I second that. 23348. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 8:26:06 PM My two cents regarding today's decisions (which I haven't read, so maybe two cents is overcharging - if it isn't already!): 23349. CalGal - 6/27/2002 8:28:51 PM I don't see Rehnquist (or anyone else who said in yesterday's majority decision that voucher money could go to religious schools) voting to uphold the ban on the Pledge of Allegience with the reasoning that it's not "entirely neutral with respect to religion." 23350. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 8:29:52 PM Speaking of high school marching band members, my daughter is booting me off the computer now. So good night, everybody! 23351. msivorytower - 6/27/2002 8:33:40 PM Arky 23352. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:34:37 PM If that is true, they only need one vote, and both O'Connor and Kennedy are directly quoted in that decision. 23353. CalGal - 6/27/2002 8:35:30 PM What really appalled me was that question one of the justices asked--was it Kennedy? Something unpleasant about the student who originally brought the suit. 23354. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:35:50 PM If we are, then I could think of probably well more than a hundred students over 20 years that we shouldn't have sent home every day. 23355. CalGal - 6/27/2002 8:37:15 PM Pincher--again, if they handle it as a political issue then all bets are off. But you never know, they might want to actually pretend they look at the law first, for once. 23356. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:37:16 PM 23357. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:37:39 PM That Kennedy comment was really uncalled for and unbelievable to come from a SC justice. I can't remember it specifically but it was highly unprofessional and directly accusatory--if you don't agree to submit to this you're automatically guilty in his book, was the gist of it. 23358. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:37:43 PM That should be amended to students not yet eighteen years of age. 23359. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:39:28 PM Pincher, they have Constitutional rights as individuals (armbands came before the court on that issue), but school publications are subject to restrictions that the school can determine, afaik. 23360. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:40:35 PM My wayward post #54 was to Msit's post on schools being guardians of children, btw. 23361. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:40:55 PM Arky -- 23362. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:42:27 PM Arky -- 23363. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:44:59 PM Yes, but that's as property of the school or contents of containers carrying potentially dangerous materials on school property. Like they can search your purse before you enter a concert. 23364. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:45:44 PM I'd have to look it up. It involved students wearing armbands in protest to school and being sent home and the students won. 23365. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:50:10 PM I'd have to look it up. It involved students wearing armbands in protest to school and being sent home and the students won. 23366. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 8:52:41 PM Yes, but they can't suppress student protests of that nature as political speech. Wear your armband over your uniform, I guess. 23367. msivorytower - 6/27/2002 8:54:13 PM Pincher 23368. msivorytower - 6/27/2002 8:57:19 PM And of course, weapons searches are generally not considered a violation of the 4th when there is probable cause even for adults. 23369. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 8:58:42 PM I don't pretend to know the details, but I do know about that case and there are several other specific ones, involving school publications and the like. 23370. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 9:00:12 PM Xpost 23371. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 9:07:35 PM MsIT -- 23372. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 9:09:19 PM Again, I'm not asking if you think the courts should rule that way; I'm asking if you think the courts would come out with that decision. 23373. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 9:16:01 PM I am neither an educator nor a lawyer concerned with these questions, but it seems to me that schools have a good deal of leeway in modifying their students' personal behavior, if they believe that personal behavior is detrimental to a good learning environment. 23374. PincherMartin - 6/27/2002 9:28:15 PM By the way, another U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals had its own ruling on a case that deals with the establishment clause. 23375. msivorytower - 6/27/2002 9:45:41 PM I am neither an educator nor a lawyer concerned with these questions, but it seems to me that schools have a good deal of leeway in modifying their students' personal behavior, if they believe that personal behavior is detrimental to a good learning environment 23376. CalGal - 6/27/2002 9:45:46 PM I just heard someone on Lehrer Newshour say that 25-30% of Americans approved the decision, which is rather cheering. 23377. jexster - 6/27/2002 10:15:57 PM Well we'll just have to send 30% into exile now won't we? 23378. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 10:34:03 PM Cal (Message # 23353): There is a link to a story about Justice Kennedy's odd (to be charitable) questioning at oral argument in the drug testing case at Message # 1483 in thread 116. 23379. CalGal - 6/27/2002 10:55:18 PM That was it; I remember you posting that the first time. 23380. OhioSTOPAS - 6/27/2002 10:56:46 PM Nasty like a fox, is Mr. Chief Justice Kennedy. 23381. joezan - 6/27/2002 11:06:33 PM arky: 23382. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 11:15:53 PM Oh, I mean so people are required to go to public school, but may not participate in any extracurricular activity sponsored by that public school if they prize their 4th Amendment rights. 23383. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 11:17:46 PM Posting again to catch some of the dripping sarcasm from my previous. 23384. joezan - 6/27/2002 11:30:19 PM Good thing you warned me, arky, or I might've read that post straight. 23385. arkymalarky - 6/27/2002 11:37:57 PM Your facility is very different, Joe. I don't know about you, but I resent the fact that someone can make my child pee in a cup before she can participate in any extracurricular activity. My child doesn't do drugs. If you can show me probable cause to believe she does, then get out your evidence. Otherwise, that kind of treatment is unnecessary, degrading, and sends a message of automatic suspicion and lack of trust from the school to the children and parents. 23386. joezan - 6/28/2002 12:00:18 AM The behavior modification program we developed for our facilty 12 years ago is now considered a model for juvenile facilities. It's based on the Positive Peer Culture, and the way it works is like this: 23387. joezan - 6/28/2002 12:20:31 AM Well, arky - it's a sad state of affairs, but unfortunately there is very, very good reason to suspect that even well-behaved kids are doing drugs, absent any evidence at all. 23388. CalGal - 6/28/2002 12:22:31 AM they will limit access to the things the kids desire to those who can do what is right - those who wish to emulate them will follow suit. 23389. joezan - 6/28/2002 12:24:03 AM Yes - why? 23390. CalGal - 6/28/2002 12:29:52 AM So your statement: 23391. joezan - 6/28/2002 12:32:21 AM Well, actually that is what (paraphrased) the woman from the school in the SC decision said about the reason for the policy - but it's basically the same as what we expect. 23392. joezan - 6/28/2002 12:34:48 AM Cal, all of our teachers have taught in public schools (in fact, they're on contract through the local school district), and every one of them plans to retire from the detention center. They would never teach in public school again. 23393. CalGal - 6/28/2002 12:39:18 AM If what you're getting at is that expecting juvenile offenders to do what is right is expecting too much - think again. 23394. concerned - 6/28/2002 3:12:00 AM One may reasonably object to the way in which the addition of the reference to God was made to the Pledge of Allegiance, although I don't know why anybody should care enough to bother. It is not rational, however, to claim that the Pledge is thereby rendered unconstitutional. 23395. joezan - 6/28/2002 6:22:53 AM Cal: 23396. arkymalarky - 6/28/2002 7:25:26 AM ...there is very, very good reason to suspect that even well-behaved kids are doing drugs, absent any evidence at all. 23397. msivorytower - 6/28/2002 7:36:49 AM There is never a good reason to suspect anyone of anything "absent any evidence at all." 23398. arkymalarky - 6/28/2002 7:41:52 AM Thanks, Msit. 23399. msivorytower - 6/28/2002 7:55:35 AM Here's something that's beginning to naw on me regarding this voucher decision: 23400. judithathome - 6/28/2002 8:29:16 AM MsIT: 23401. ivan osokin - 6/28/2002 8:46:14 AM vouchers...faith-based initiatives...getting chummy with the Southern Baptist Convention..."crusades" called for after 9/11 (to kill the heathens)...declaring that america is organized around christian values (paraphrasing W recently regarding the pledge). and yet, we still find it hard to swallow that the US is a disguised theocracy ;) 23402. iiibbb - 6/28/2002 9:04:17 AM 23403. judithathome - 6/28/2002 9:15:09 AM If he wanted a healthier diet, why was he eating fake crab and not the real thing? 23404. joezan - 6/28/2002 9:41:41 AM There is never a good reason to suspect anyone of anything "absent any evidence at all." 23405. arkymalarky - 6/28/2002 9:51:53 AM So what? 23406. arkymalarky - 6/28/2002 9:54:21 AM And to follow up, would my observations of her comings and goings, her friends, her activities, or anything else give me any probable cause to suspect her I would do all of the above. 23407. joezan - 6/28/2002 9:54:49 AM But you are responsible only for her. 23408. arkymalarky - 6/28/2002 9:57:56 AM No it isn't. 23409. joezan - 6/28/2002 10:19:55 AM You're brainwashed arky. 23410. arkymalarky - 6/28/2002 10:25:16 AM If it takes brainwashing to believe that not everyone is guilty until proven innocent, then I plead guilty to it. Fault the government courses that ingrained those dadblasted civil liberties in me. 23411. jexster - 6/28/2002 10:32:27 AM We are purging the Mote of all who do not pledge allegiance to this great nation under God... 23412. jexster - 6/28/2002 10:33:25 AM WHOSOEVER WILL BE SAVED, 23413. jexster - 6/28/2002 10:34:46 AM And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. 23414. jexster - 6/28/2002 10:35:29 AM So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; 23415. jexster - 6/28/2002 10:35:47 AM 23416. Wombat - 6/28/2002 10:55:26 AM The discussion here has been extremely reasonable by Mote or any other standards. 23417. jexster - 6/28/2002 11:06:49 AM Margaret Bourke-White??? 23418. joezan - 6/28/2002 11:13:59 AM Stop being an idiot, jex. 23419. judithathome - 6/28/2002 11:25:30 AM Are you sure there are no consequences, Joe? Are you sure a concerned teacher won't turn the kid over to authorities for his own good because he's committing a crime? Because after all, if he tests positive, he's taking illeagal drugs and if he's buying illegal drugs, he's breaking they law...how long before we hear those types of stories? 23420. joezan - 6/28/2002 11:31:14 AM Judith: 23421. judithathome - 6/28/2002 11:40:05 AM That's good to know... 23422. jexster - 6/28/2002 2:27:37 PM What sort of heretical god do you believe in JoeZ... 23423. robertjayb - 6/28/2002 2:29:47 PM Excuse me, I have to answer my tooth... 23424. jexster - 6/28/2002 2:30:45 PM Haec est fides catholica, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit. Amen. 23425. joezan - 6/28/2002 3:01:21 PM To clarify my last post: My "no one" includes adults testing as a pre- or post-employment requirement, or for illness, etc. Basically, pee-testing for anything but legal purposes is about as sacrosanct as going to confession. 23426. glendajean - 6/28/2002 3:35:22 PM Joe -- looks like the INS is protecting Grand Rapids area from an ACHT-TOR. 23427. joezan - 6/28/2002 3:51:29 PM Well thank God someone's looking out for the Midwest, gj. 23428. robertjayb - 6/28/2002 4:07:42 PM Whoop! 23429. glendajean - 6/28/2002 4:08:50 PM Joe -- it's the latest version of internet advertising, annoying as hell and you can't click it. It eventually goes away. 23430. Arcturus of Boötes - 6/28/2002 4:49:32 PM Griff Junior on phedrines? Sammy Sosa sucking steroids? Child's play, I say. 23431. ivan osokin - 6/28/2002 4:55:09 PM i hear that cheney will take power temporarily while bush gets a colonoscopy. i don't know how they'll manage to pry open his tight ass...maybe the jaws of life? 23432. Arcturus of Boötes - 6/28/2002 4:58:14 PM in those few hours i suspect the newly omnipotent 23433. Arcturus of Boötes - 6/28/2002 5:00:00 PM and this: 23434. Greystoke - 6/28/2002 6:08:56 PM "i hear that cheney will take power temporarily while bush gets a colonoscopy" 23435. OhioSTOPAS - 6/28/2002 6:11:23 PM I'm wondering how we'll know that Bush is under sedation. 23436. judithathome - 6/28/2002 6:13:34 PM There shouldn't be much difference with Cheney officially in charge...it's just business as usual. 23437. Greystoke - 6/28/2002 6:14:00 PM Ohio, 23438. Greystoke - 6/28/2002 6:24:30 PM Joe, 23439. Greystoke - 6/28/2002 6:45:55 PM Here is an article about a proposal to test all students. 23440. sakonige - 6/28/2002 8:50:47 PM 23441. jexster - 6/28/2002 9:08:56 PM Bush to Be Sedated for Colonoscopy 23442. jexster - 6/28/2002 10:08:25 PM Let's keep this simple because we're in a hurry and timing is everything. We've got unsaved people behaving like spoiled children and we need to act as quickly as possible before Jesus gets so upset, He just decides to kill everyone. 23443. jexster - 6/28/2002 10:08:51 PM 23444. joezan - 6/29/2002 12:14:56 AM Greystoke: 23445. ivan osokin - 6/29/2002 8:13:54 AM hey...in Message # 23431 i suggested that cheney will use his short time in power to wage war on countries whose names end in consonants. and look what just popped up from AP.... 23446. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 9:57:42 AM In the late 1980s, Roberta Kitchen had a sixth-grade daughter in an inner-city Cleveland school who could barely read. Kitchen asked her daughter's teacher to hold her back a year, but, she says, the teacher told her "they had already reached their quota as to how many kids they could fail." The students in her daughter's class had to share books, and since there weren't enough to go around, the teachers couldn't assign reading for them to do at home. 23447. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 10:00:27 AM The next hurdle 23448. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 10:06:32 AM And the next -- 23449. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 10:10:46 AM 23450. CalGal - 6/29/2002 10:52:10 AM Why is it that no one ever asks Ms. Kitchen why she has 5 children if she can't even afford to educate one of them safely? 23451. judithathome - 6/29/2002 10:58:10 AM I think China had a solution to that problem at one time. 23452. jexster - 6/29/2002 11:15:27 AM The Pledge of Allegiance 23453. CalGal - 6/29/2002 11:22:54 AM Judith--I think bringing up China in a conversation really ought to be considered the equivalent of the Godwin Law. 23454. jexster - 6/29/2002 11:25:25 AM 23455. jexster - 6/29/2002 11:25:51 AM 23456. judithathome - 6/29/2002 11:26:20 AM In 1956 it made the same four words the nation's official motto, replacing "E Pluribus Unum." Legislators introduced Constitutional amendments to state that Americans obeyed "the authority and law of Jesus Christ." 23457. CalGal - 6/29/2002 11:33:19 AM The history of the pledge supports Goodwin's decision. The record of the 1954 act shows that, far from a "de minimis" reference or a mere "backdrop" devoid of meaning, the words "under God" were inserted in the pledge for the express purpose of endorsing religionwhich the U.S. Supreme Court itself ruled in 1971 was unconstitutional. 23458. judithathome - 6/29/2002 11:38:59 AM No argument from me...I remember our teacher drilling into us that we had to say "under God" because it showed we believed in God; I realise my teacher was not the Government but I figure she was just parrotting what she was hearing from her President and everyone else. 23459. CalGal - 6/29/2002 11:54:00 AM Bush: Pledge ruling 'out of step' with America 23460. jexster - 6/29/2002 12:11:48 PM V. Behold the Cross of the Lord; be scattered ye hostile powers. 23461. iiibbb - 6/29/2002 12:21:15 PM Bill of Rights for flyers may be too sharp (witted). 23462. robertjayb - 6/29/2002 1:33:44 PM PC anyone? 23463. judithathome - 6/29/2002 1:43:43 PM Good lord.... 23464. PelleNilsson - 6/29/2002 1:49:35 PM "Disability advisor"!!??? 23465. PincherMartin - 6/29/2002 1:55:54 PM The crazy things people will do to promote their show. 23466. judithathome - 6/29/2002 2:13:09 PM How do you get a job as "disability advisor"? If the show were The Odd Couple, whould you have to bone up on obsessive/compulsive behavior in order to advise? Or would you have to suggest they change Felix so none of the compulsives in the audience would be offended? How about Oscar? Should he be even more of a slob so the real slobs won't feel slighted? 23467. jexster - 6/29/2002 3:12:43 PM 23468. jexster - 6/29/2002 3:21:48 PM Interview With the Jimmy Fallon Masher 23469. jexster - 6/29/2002 3:23:43 PM 23470. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 6/29/2002 4:04:55 PM 23471. judithathome - 6/29/2002 4:15:19 PM Excellent, Wiz!! 23472. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 6/29/2002 4:15:53 PM Smoooch! 23473. judithathome - 6/29/2002 4:23:24 PM We're going out to eat Italian food...I'll drink a toast to your good taste in graduation speeches. 23474. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 6/29/2002 4:42:17 PM Thanks and toast to your own good sense and awareness, Judith--God knows it will be needed in the dark days ahead! 23475. robertjayb - 6/29/2002 4:55:01 PM I liked it too, Wiz, but don't smooch me, please. I'm off to eat fajitas at a political do for a candidate for commissoner's court. He is a bright, well-educated lawyer/farmer who would be an excellent office holder. And, of course, he will be ground up in the God's Own Party machine, but anyway I'm counting on genuine skirt steak fajitas. 23476. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 6/29/2002 5:30:31 PM Yet more angels in America, rj--happy fajitas!!! 23477. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 5:40:48 PM "Evil has a brother in Florida." 23478. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 5:42:22 PM The Standard on Minister Kushner 23479. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 5:43:06 PM The blather is instructive, because it reveals the state of the crisis inside Kushner's progressive breast. "What have you to offer now!" bellows a character called "the world's oldest Bolshevik" to Yeltsin-like reformers. "Market incentives? . . . Do [you] have, as we did, a beautiful Theory, as bold, as Grand, as comprehensive a construct?" 23480. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 5:43:48 PM "The Great Work begins," he says while standing in front of the Bethesda Fountain in Central Park--whereupon the play ends. What might that "Great Work" be? Kushner never says, because he doesn't know. All he knows is that the Great Work is "progressive." 23481. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 5:44:24 PM Kushner's aper us often involve would-be-Wildean invocations of his preference for the male gender and the unexplained relation of that preference to his intelligence: 23482. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 5:45:17 PM This, in a city where George W. Bush elicited manic cheers by promising at ground zero that "those who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon." Is Kushner mad? No, just isolated, trapped in those coffeehouse conversations with the world's oldest living Bolsheviks and oldest surviving remnants of the anti-American left of the 1960s. "Now we know what collateral damage, as the Pentagon calls it, looks like up close," Kushner told the Times Magazine. "No one has had to see people fall from a 110-story building before--that's a particular horror that has been reserved for us. But it's entirely to our credit that we are learning something from it." 23483. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 5:46:01 PM Thus, as late as the 1980s, Kushner was puzzled by how a nation professing "the human values of socialism" could be so rude as to invade a neighboring land. He has evinced far less confusion in examining his native country, which he considers a viciously unjust gloss on Nazi Germany. 23484. Daniel Sickles - 6/29/2002 5:46:22 PM In public remarks before an appreciative antiwar audience at the Guggenheim Museum in New York City just before the December premiere of "Homebody/Kabul," Kushner said that "the American complicity in arming the mujahedeen . . . [led] to a decade of slaughter." In the course of the play, he seems determined to hold the United States responsible for the Taliban; it's set just after Bill Clinton bombed the al Qaeda camps in Khost in August 1998, and throughout characters allude to that event. 23485. robertjayb - 6/29/2002 6:38:43 PM Summer is acomin' in---Die kiddies, die... 23486. judithathome - 6/29/2002 9:15:00 PM I think punishment in these hot car cases should fit the crime; leave the mother in a locked car in Death Valley for 8 hours. 23487. judithathome - 6/29/2002 9:15:39 PM In the latter part of July. 23488. PincherMartin - 6/29/2002 9:24:45 PM Judith -- 23489. CalGal - 6/29/2002 9:26:45 PM I really do wonder if some of these women are evil enough to figure they'll get off with no punishment other than that of losing their children--and so decide to do away with them. 23490. judithathome - 6/29/2002 9:28:26 PM You should hear what I think should be done to the assholes who set fire to a dog on the northside of town yesterday.... 23491. PincherMartin - 6/29/2002 9:30:21 PM Judith -- 23492. judithathome - 6/29/2002 9:32:51 PM I think some of them do feel that way; last year, a woman in Dallas left her kid in the car while she went in and worked a shift at a restaurant! And then wept on the news that she just forgot to drop the kid off at daycare. If you're too friggin' stupid to remember to take care of your kid better than that, you don't need to be reproducing. 23493. Sadie Q - 6/29/2002 9:33:43 PM I think the car-leaving is probably just incompetence a lot of the time. 23494. judithathome - 6/29/2002 9:35:04 PM What a relief it is to discover you can be so Old Testament when the need arises. 23495. PincherMartin - 6/30/2002 12:15:28 AM This fascinating New York Times article explains that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals may be the most overturned Appeals court due to its size, not politics. 23496. PincherMartin - 6/30/2002 12:17:47 AM And this selection from the piece may interest Ohio. 23497. PincherMartin - 6/30/2002 12:19:02 AM And this selection from the piece may interest Ohio. 23498. theDiva - 6/30/2002 8:18:36 AM "What a relief it is to discover you can be so Old Testament when the need arises." 23499. CalGal - 6/30/2002 11:45:05 AM Pincher, 23500. robertjayb - 6/30/2002 4:17:12 PM He's a self-starter! 23501. jexster - 6/30/2002 8:18:05 PM A regular Horatio Alger! 23502. jexster - 6/30/2002 8:23:49 PM 23503. PincherMartin - 6/30/2002 9:20:04 PM Cal -- 23504. CalGal - 6/30/2002 9:42:15 PM When the news of the decision first came out, you predicted it would make things uncomfortable for Bush, politically. 23505. iiibbb - 7/1/2002 9:41:29 AM World war crimes court starts today 23506. jexster - 7/1/2002 10:09:34 AM 23507. jexster - 7/1/2002 10:19:33 AM iiibbb... 23508. Wombat - 7/1/2002 11:31:01 AM To return to the Pledge for a moment... 23509. CalGal - 7/1/2002 11:38:34 AM Wombat, 23510. judithathome - 7/1/2002 11:42:09 AM I don't think anything will be said about it...I think he could even specify which religious denomiation they would have to be and it would just sail out there into the ozone. I don't knw what's wrong with this country; the loyal opposition seems to have turned tail and run. 23511. jexster - 7/1/2002 12:03:38 PM wouldn't it be a good time to resecularize the pledge and US currency 23512. iiibbb - 7/1/2002 12:03:51 PM One of my fundamental problems with the world court is that it would not honer certain constitutional rights that American citizens have. 23513. judithathome - 7/1/2002 12:25:11 PM JC Watts stepping down....to spend more time with his family. There seems to be a lot of that lately, Republicans wanting to spend more time with the family. I guess Bush and his focus on the family has been very persuasive. 23514. Wombat - 7/1/2002 12:51:22 PM iiibbb: 23515. iiibbb - 7/1/2002 12:52:18 PM not what I said. 23516. iiibbb - 7/1/2002 12:57:08 PM The world court would apparently have the mandate that it could demand we extradite someone from within our borders... even our own citizens. 23517. bubbaette - 7/1/2002 12:58:32 PM These days when I hear about politicos stepping down to spend more time with their families, I wonder what fresh scandle is about to erupt. 23518. judithathome - 7/1/2002 1:05:21 PM The Republicans become the white party when he leaves...he's the only black member in Congress with an (R) after his name, right? 23519. judithathome - 7/1/2002 1:07:10 PM Bubbaette, I think JC's scandal already happened back when his "out of wedlock" child surfaced. Just youthful indescretions, like the rest of 'em claim. 23520. Arcturus of Boötes - 7/1/2002 2:22:29 PM My subdivision made me eat it! 23521. jexster - 7/1/2002 2:47:34 PM The International Criminal Court: 23522. iiibbb - 7/1/2002 2:55:45 PM the ICC to step in only as a last resort if the states fail to implement their duty -- that is, only if investigations and, 23523. bubbaette - 7/1/2002 2:56:43 PM I was thinking that Va. had a black Republican Congressman from the Charlottesville area -- Paul Harris, I think. But then I remembered that he was a member of the General Assembly (no longer in) who was drafted for photo ops by the Repubs in Washington. 23524. betty - 7/1/2002 4:06:09 PM 23525. iiibbb - 7/1/2002 4:17:57 PM I like caves... All I need to do now is find me is a bag of rice and some rich stupid person and I'm on easy-street. 23526. CalGal - 7/1/2002 6:17:13 PM Federal Judge Declares Death Penalty Unconstitutional 23527. Jamie R - 7/1/2002 6:27:31 PM I'll be more than happy to see the death penalty go, but the first point seems goofy to me. Since when is there a procedural right to prove your innocence after you've been convicted by a jury and lost all appeals? Is he arguing that it's unconstitutional to eliminate the possibility of retrial on as yet unknown new evidence? 23528. Jamie R - 7/1/2002 6:28:22 PM Well, okay, I don't understand it at all. What is substantive due process again? 23529. CalGal - 7/1/2002 6:37:22 PM I don't really understand it. I mean, I understand what he is saying, but I don't understand the legal basis for it. 23530. Jamie R - 7/1/2002 6:41:45 PM Okay, after checking out this, I would guess that he is saying that since there is a fundamental right for the innocent not to be executed, any procedure that threatens that right cannot be considered "due process." 23531. robertjayb - 7/1/2002 7:17:33 PM (BBC)---Two planes have collided over southern Germany. 23532. joezan - 7/1/2002 10:35:09 PM Maybe I'm paranoid, but two planes accidentally colliding at 36,000 ft. just seems extremely unlikely. Aren't there are all kinds of electronic gadgetry to make sure this doesn't happen? 23533. iiibbb - 7/1/2002 10:43:05 PM We'll have to wait and see. There is some equipment, but if they were being directed by air traffic control, then the pilots could have been taking orders. 23534. Wombat - 7/2/2002 8:20:15 AM Apparently both planes saw each other and took identical steps to avoid each other. 23535. iiibbb - 7/2/2002 8:43:04 AM ...and the gizmos screw up sometimes 23536. robertjayb - 7/2/2002 11:22:45 AM A trip around the world--- 23537. judithathome - 7/2/2002 11:25:34 AM I wonder how much money that guy has spent in toto on all his attempts...hope it was worth it. 23538. robertjayb - 7/2/2002 11:26:54 AM Looks more like a trip around Antarctica... 23539. robertjayb - 7/2/2002 11:52:31 AM A long AP piece on the Boeing-Tupelov collision... 23540. CalGal - 7/2/2002 9:40:33 PM I just read that the Tupelov plane was carrying a bunch of Russian school kids on tour, and that they were only on the plane because they went to the wrong airport. 23541. iiibbb - 7/3/2002 12:01:06 AM Finally, the Saturn VUE Saturns first-ever SUV. 23542. robertjayb - 7/3/2002 1:07:53 PM Collision warning system was off... 23543. judithathome - 7/3/2002 1:17:01 PM So it doesn't suprise me that they'd "cheat" on this test. 23544. robertjayb - 7/4/2002 4:05:29 PM Shooting at LAX... 23545. CalGal - 7/4/2002 4:25:41 PM Wow. 23546. jexster - 7/4/2002 7:58:42 PM Golden State UNDER ATTACK 23547. jexster - 7/4/2002 7:59:35 PM Texas Flooded 23548. judithathome - 7/5/2002 9:34:28 AM They are interviewing people from the flooded areas and mentioning how 3 or 4 years ago, the areas flooding today were under water then, too. One older couple could hardly speak for the tears but she managed to choke out that they had just finished "rebuilding" and would probably loose this house now, too. 23549. rubberducky - 7/5/2002 9:53:45 AM these people should get one flood. one. and then cut off from the government teet if they 'rebuild' 23550. judithathome - 7/5/2002 9:54:47 AM No kidding...talk about feeble minded. 23552. jexster - 7/5/2002 12:42:23 PM NEW ROADS -- Dawn Cahill said her husband, Bill, pulled the last survivor to safety after planes crashed into the World Trade Center in New York Sept. 11. 23553. jexster - 7/5/2002 12:46:08 PM The parade, which covered a 3-mile stretch along False River on Thursday, began 20 years ago "out of boredom," parade organizer Lionel Kleinpeter said. 23554. jexster - 7/5/2002 12:51:53 PM One Nation Under God - Love It or Leave God Damn It! 23555. judithathome - 7/5/2002 1:03:29 PM Ted Williams....RIP 23556. theDiva - 7/5/2002 1:08:29 PM oh dear. 23557. PincherMartin - 7/7/2002 6:34:30 PM CalGal -- 23558. Cellar Door - 7/7/2002 7:06:23 PM A sure sign of insecurity. 23559. robertjayb - 7/8/2002 5:46:05 PM What a cockup! This will cost the Swiss... 23560. msivorytower - 7/9/2002 8:25:12 AM Well, duh lady...you "rebuild" in a freakin' flood plain which has been known to flood out in years past and what did you expect? That God would stop the rain? 23561. CalGal - 7/9/2002 11:41:17 AM These people should not be subsidized for their repeated risk-taking. 23562. Daniel Sickles - 7/9/2002 2:29:43 PM HEADLINE 23563. robertjayb - 7/9/2002 11:32:07 PM Another infant dies in hot car... 23564. judithathome - 7/10/2002 9:14:15 AM Robert, this lady evidently thinks she can use the "thought I left him at daycare" excuse because they let that girl in Dallas off recently with the same excuse...she worked a shift at the Cheesecake Factory and the baby she'd left in her car died as a result of her "absentmindedness". 23565. jexster - 7/10/2002 10:01:23 AM Texas Religious Fanatics Beat the Crap Out of 11-Year-Old Boy 23566. Daniel Sickles - 7/10/2002 12:27:11 PM I saw the video of the kid who got slammed into the car and hit with a weak ass punch by the cop, who was bleeding. The kid already has a lawyer, the usual suspects are screaming for "justice" and Live at 5 is on the beat. 23567. Daniel Sickles - 7/10/2002 12:30:18 PM Errata - make that Cleveland a Cincy. 23568. Cellar Door - 7/10/2002 12:38:52 PM "I saw the video of the kid who got slammed into the car and hit with a weak ass punch by the cop, who was bleeding." 23569. TabouliJones - 7/10/2002 12:45:13 PM Anyone have a link to the beating story? 23570. TabouliJones - 7/10/2002 12:45:30 PM Anyone have a link to the beating story? 23571. Cellar Door - 7/10/2002 1:00:31 PM Pedo-Priests ask for "forgiveness" to keep their jobs -- and rape again 23572. betty - 7/10/2002 1:03:38 PM Cop riots on kid 23573. TabouliJones - 7/10/2002 1:05:13 PM Thanks, snookums. 23574. ivan osokin - 7/10/2002 1:06:17 PM sheesh tabouli...get a room! 23575. betty - 7/10/2002 1:09:17 PM Michael Gennaco, a Los Angeles attorney who will lead the sheriff's department probe said, "I don't think it's sufficient simply to rely on videotape. It only captures part of an incident." 23576. betty - 7/10/2002 1:10:02 PM anything for you babe. 23577. CalGal - 7/10/2002 1:10:55 PM Well, at least they are invoking Rodney King instead of Selma. The kid lunged at the cop, yes? 23578. PelleNilsson - 7/10/2002 1:11:41 PM From betty's link: 23579. Daniel Sickles - 7/10/2002 1:11:55 PM Cellar 23580. CalGal - 7/10/2002 1:16:38 PM We want these guys to be at the level of a Dunkin' Donut maker, who can clock-in and clock-out of emotion, yet they don't have that job. 23581. betty - 7/10/2002 1:24:44 PM Cal, 23582. betty - 7/10/2002 1:26:35 PM Cal, 23583. CalGal - 7/10/2002 1:28:59 PM You know, what you may not want to know or understand is that lots of urban white cops are members of the KKK 23584. PelleNilsson - 7/10/2002 1:29:03 PM Of course police officers, just as lawyers, are expected to be able to control their temper. 23585. Daniel Sickles - 7/10/2002 1:35:40 PM Pelle 23586. betty - 7/10/2002 1:35:50 PM yes, it is not only reasonable, but optimal, to expect them to keep a lid on it. I don't think that's part of their training, though. Too bad. 23587. betty - 7/10/2002 1:39:23 PM Cal, 23588. CalGal - 7/10/2002 1:40:43 PM But you pretty much make my point, which underlies the shock and disgust of the polite citizenry when they are confronted by a brutal reality. 23589. CalGal - 7/10/2002 1:41:33 PM but there aren't, as you would imagine, hard statistics on it. 23590. betty - 7/10/2002 1:43:44 PM sickles, 23591. ivan osokin - 7/10/2002 1:49:43 PM betty brought up a good point. in philadelphia, a few years back, a friend of ours (former champion kick-boxer) had been paid to train police in martial arts, specifically for disarming opponents without resorting to firearms (for instance, a knife-wielding attacker). after a year or so, the police department had some budget cuts and he lost his gig. he wasn't replaced so they received no further training. 23592. Daniel Sickles - 7/10/2002 1:50:37 PM Cal 23593. betty - 7/10/2002 1:52:31 PM Cal, 23594. CalGal - 7/10/2002 1:54:48 PM Daniel, 23595. CalGal - 7/10/2002 1:56:21 PM because it is a fact... 23596. ivan osokin - 7/10/2002 2:00:24 PM cal... 23597. CalGal - 7/10/2002 2:07:36 PM "there are lots of swingers in america" but no statistical surveys to prove it. 23598. iiibbb - 7/10/2002 2:17:52 PM I think cops should be trained to control their emotions. I think back to the lines from that Patrick Swaze movie, "Roadhouse"... where he's instructing his bouncers about "being polite". 23599. CalGal - 7/10/2002 2:22:25 PM I don't object to an officer using violence if it is appropriate--although the better trained they are in handling violence, the less likely that they'll have to hurt someone. I just find the idea that we should shrug if a cop loses his temper to be unacceptable. I also don't think the answer is to pay the victim $500K. 23600. TabouliJones - 7/10/2002 2:22:40 PM I think you underestimate the capabilities of police officers. It's not that tough a job. 23601. betty - 7/10/2002 2:27:32 PM Cal, 23602. CalGal - 7/10/2002 2:35:30 PM As I said, this problem may be entirely localized in Philadelphia, I don't know 23603. iiibbb - 7/10/2002 2:36:23 PM Basically... it seems to me cops should carry little cameras around that record the last 30 minutes or so of activity on tape. Video from afar usually neglects the events that lead up to an altercation. 23604. betty - 7/10/2002 2:37:27 PM bouli, 23605. Cellar Door - 7/10/2002 2:43:14 PM About that cop 23606. ivan osokin - 7/10/2002 2:43:30 PM The randomness of a violent confrontation isn't something to be triffled with. I don't care how much martial arts training you might have... martial arts training isn't a guarantee of anything. 23607. TabouliJones - 7/10/2002 2:44:43 PM iiibbb, 23608. Cellar Door - 7/10/2002 2:47:59 PM Hey, here's an even better idea: if the suspect is already handcuffed and in custody THEN THERE'S NO REASON TO SLAM HIS HEAD INTO A CAR!!!! 23609. CalGal - 7/10/2002 2:52:13 PM Cellar, 23610. iiibbb - 7/10/2002 3:03:45 PM Message # 23606 23611. msivorytower - 7/10/2002 9:14:43 PM Is anyone following the NCWO controversy with Augusta National CC, home of the Masters Tournament? The Augusta National is a private club that has no women members, although women can play the course as guests, and have often. 23612. jexster - 7/10/2002 10:51:42 PM The Inglewood ass kicker has more problems than civil suit Daniel... 23613. jexster - 7/10/2002 10:53:13 PM Say how do you feel about uniforms, leather jackets and motorcyle boots? 23614. RickNelson - 7/11/2002 7:40:05 AM Cellar added to the fact that this youngster was woefully abused is that he is apparently living with a learning disability. It was stated on my local news that he has vocalized his lack of understanding of the whole affair which led to his arrest and abuse. 23615. Property of Jesus - 7/11/2002 8:49:51 AM From John Stossel: 23616. jexster - 7/11/2002 10:51:01 AM And the White House sanitizes the Resident's transcripts so that he sounds like he's managed a third grade education...a third grade PUBLIC education...a third grade PUBLIC education in a black school in SW Houston 23617. jexster - 7/11/2002 10:54:10 AM More sophisticated tho, the media's efforts to show that he tells the truth...Remember that "Marshall Plan for Afghanistan" and the Rant Against Nation Builders (Evil Doers 2000 model)? 23618. jexster - 7/11/2002 3:36:47 PM Damn Rose That Sucks! 23619. ivan osokin - 7/11/2002 3:42:40 PM my birth certificate had errantly listed me as "female", despite my obviously male name and despite the fact that it was evident my mother had a male child. she kept the certificate hidden from me...but i found it when i was a teenager trying to get a learner's permit. 23620. jexster - 7/11/2002 5:22:00 PM Message # 23571 23621. Cellar Door - 7/11/2002 5:37:50 PM Identical to whites, IMO. 23622. Cellar Door - 7/11/2002 6:11:05 PM Videotape the Police beating a handcuffed youth -- go to jail. 23623. judithathome - 7/11/2002 6:15:02 PM Well, jeez, the guy had a hit-and-run while DWI and a petty theft with a prior...what did he expect? 23624. Cellar Door - 7/11/2002 6:21:16 PM He expects to be killed while "in custody." 23625. betty - 7/11/2002 6:55:47 PM The guy who video taped this one in OK also says the police were threatening him. 23626. JJBiener - 7/11/2002 7:21:23 PM Betty - that's real cute but how many of your friends and friends of friends have been murdered by cops. 23627. betty - 7/11/2002 7:47:25 PM JJ, 23628. jexster - 7/12/2002 12:04:25 PM Dat's yo pinyon Massa Cella! 23629. joezan - 7/13/2002 12:05:37 AM I can't link to the following stories, but take my word for them. I mention them because they seem to be evidence of some profound dis-harmonic convergence - I think you'll all agree: 23630. TabouliJones - 7/15/2002 10:02:11 AM Hasidic Jew, father of 6, murdered in random stabbing on Toronto street -- possible hate crime. 23631. jexster - 7/15/2002 2:28:03 PM California Energy RipOff 2001 - Enron Co-conspirator Takes Huge Hit 23632. jexster - 7/15/2002 2:36:32 PM 23633. wonkers2 - 7/15/2002 2:53:34 PM Joezan, Guns and booze at 4th of July picnics. What could be more American? Thank God and Ashcroft for the 2nd Amendment! 23634. robertjayb - 7/15/2002 3:21:56 PM Dave Barry on Internet Life... 23635. Cellar Door - 7/16/2002 12:12:10 PM Remember the Central Park jogger? 23636. rubberducky - 7/16/2002 1:49:54 PM checking... 23637. rubberducky - 7/16/2002 1:54:31 PM GOP don't want no HIV on Sesame 23638. thoughtful - 7/16/2002 3:26:55 PM Did anyone hear that awful story on today's news? Sounds too awful to be true, or else it's just a desire that it isn't true...that a couple of 5 yr old girls were outside playing when a man came up and started asking one girl about a puppy when she bent over to ask him if the dog was "this high" he grabbed her and took her away in his car while she was kicking and screaming. Awful. 23639. glendajean - 7/16/2002 3:29:21 PM The character is on a South African television program. Everybody and their cousin have been talking about the international threat of AIDS/HIV and Africa continues to be the ground zero for this disease, where whole countries are seeing their average life expectancies drop by thirty years or so (according to recent news reports). Babies get AIDS from their parents. They get it from bad blood. They possibly get it from gay men who pass it on to their parents through sex or drugs, but I think the percentage is fairly low, particularly in Africa where it appears to be mostly transmitted by heterosexuals. 23640. bubbaette - 7/16/2002 3:30:33 PM One might think that they're trying to divert attention from weightier matters. 23641. OhioSTOPAS - 7/16/2002 3:36:38 PM . . . while scoring points with their anti-gay constituents. A win-win. 23642. OhioSTOPAS - 7/16/2002 3:37:32 PM I haven't seen such fast action by Congressional Republicans since a Senate committee hearing was convened to investigate "Ebonics". 23643. jexster - 7/16/2002 3:37:52 PM With Georgie in his sights... 23644. judithathome - 7/16/2002 6:07:00 PM Another mother kills her 3 children...about 25 miles from here. The wife of a Fire Department Captain shot her 3 children and killed them all, shot and wounded her ex husband and then killed herself; nasty divorce and court appearence this morning said to be the triggering factor... 23645. judithathome - 7/16/2002 6:35:53 PM This happened in a very upscale "country living" community; my aunt's fiance lives just a block from the home where it happened. 23646. CalGal - 7/16/2002 6:39:52 PM Jesus. No doubt the papers will blame the husband. 23647. judithathome - 7/16/2002 6:45:34 PM The TV isn't....yet. 23648. robertjayb - 7/16/2002 8:56:29 PM 23649. robertjayb - 7/16/2002 11:07:32 PM Body of a Girl Found 23650. msivorytower - 7/16/2002 11:23:12 PM I used to live in Orange County....I don't remember it being as dangerous (or as boring as the movie portrays it) as it appears to be now. 23651. CalGal - 7/16/2002 11:50:25 PM I think it's a bit of both. The fact that they found her body really depresses me. She did a lot right, the cops were on it right away, and I just heard some child expert saying "The problem was that she shouldn't have been in the front yard." 23652. msivorytower - 7/17/2002 8:20:25 AM Cal, 23653. msivorytower - 7/17/2002 8:29:04 AM And are there really a larger quantity of wackos these days or is there something more at work? I tend to believe that the quantity of sick minds hasn't increased, but the opportunities to exercise their sick fantasies has increased in the modern era. 23654. joezan - 7/17/2002 11:18:45 AM There's hope... 23655. CalGal - 7/17/2002 11:49:11 AM I didn't catch that incredibly stupid comment. 23656. rubberducky - 7/17/2002 2:11:35 PM girl found dead was the one kidnapped 23657. CalGal - 7/17/2002 2:21:43 PM I knew it was her. That makes me ill. 23658. judithathome - 7/17/2002 2:25:35 PM Jebbie's daughter jailed after violating her "drug rehab plan"...poor thing; real life is so rough for those young Bushs. 23659. judithathome - 7/17/2002 2:28:34 PM Here is the story on poor little Noelle... 23660. robertjayb - 7/17/2002 11:44:10 PM Killed the kids, but her hair looks nice... 23661. robertjayb - 7/17/2002 11:58:52 PM So, what's the problem? 23662. robertjayb - 7/18/2002 12:16:56 AM And this is your brain on... 23663. robertjayb - 7/18/2002 11:21:05 AM No respect for art... 23664. robertjayb - 7/18/2002 11:27:52 AM Not so nice doggies... 23665. CalGal - 7/18/2002 11:36:41 AM 23666. wonkers2 - 7/18/2002 11:44:33 AM Those animals are about as safe for pets as lions or boa constrictors. 23667. RickNelson - 7/18/2002 11:50:50 AM And they can jump too! One in St. Paul, MN last year jumped a 6ft. fence to get at a maul the face of a little girl. The dog was put down and the owner fined. 23668. iiibbb - 7/18/2002 12:50:25 PM caught on tape? 23669. iiibbb - 7/18/2002 1:00:55 PM btw... does anyone have a link to this video... I still haven't seen it posted on any websites. 23670. jexster - 7/18/2002 7:09:06 PM 23671. jexster - 7/18/2002 7:10:46 PM You'd best stay away iiibbb. 23672. jexster - 7/18/2002 7:16:12 PM The case was settled because the government knew Lindh was principally a misguided kid swept up by forces he didn't understand and not a determined suicide bomber spearheading attacks on innocent Americans. 23673. judithathome - 7/18/2002 10:30:05 PM A plane, supposedly a tanker plane, went down about an hour and a half ago in the Denver area where the fires are, north of Denver. 23674. iiibbb - 7/18/2002 10:43:51 PM Cop Killers? 23675. Indiana Jones - 7/19/2002 9:35:24 AM Doc killed more than 200 patients 23676. judithathome - 7/19/2002 10:20:05 AM Quick! Before It Melts! 23677. TabouliJones - 7/19/2002 10:57:42 AM Curious about what is up, or more accurately down, with Harken Energy, Fortune has the scoop here. Go easy Jex (and no quoting out of context). 23678. iiibbb - 7/19/2002 11:03:49 AM I just did some quick calculations based on the numbers in this study. 23679. thoughtful - 7/19/2002 1:34:33 PM 18.6 million lbs. Ground Beef Recalled due to contamination with e-coli. 23680. robertjayb - 7/19/2002 2:07:34 PM An arrest... 23681. jexster - 7/19/2002 2:11:07 PM Bush bitch sentenced....Bush speaks of patriotism....Dow down 266 23682. jexster - 7/19/2002 2:11:36 PM Propsie sells short...makes a killing 23683. joezan - 7/19/2002 10:54:46 PM I bought some of that meat from Sam's Club(I think). 23684. PincherMartin - 7/20/2002 2:11:50 AM Great fucking news. 23685. PincherMartin - 7/20/2002 2:13:19 AM I'm curious to know more details on his earlier acquittal. 23686. iiibbb - 7/20/2002 9:04:07 AM "I told you, Mr. Avila, that we would be relentless," he said. "When I told you we would hunt you down wherever you were, if you thought for one minute that I was joking -- that we were joking -- tonight you know we were deadly serious." 23687. iiibbb - 7/20/2002 9:04:28 AM That is the detective talking 23688. iiibbb - 7/20/2002 9:09:04 AM That is the detective talking 23689. jexster - 7/20/2002 11:12:39 AM This appeared in today's SF Chron. Its an article about a friend of mine, George Cherrie, who used to be SVP Audit for the Bank of America. 23690. robertjayb - 7/20/2002 12:11:06 PM A nice story, jexster. 23691. robertjayb - 7/20/2002 3:10:00 PM Got 'em! 23692. jexster - 7/21/2002 11:53:20 AM "Several things struck Andrew Krzmarzick during orientation week for his class of aspiring priests in the late summer of 1997: how brainy everyone seemed, how they weren't ostentatiously pious, and one other thing. Midway through a tour of the library at Theological College in Northeast Washington, he noticed another student "definitely checking me out." So he ditched the tour and asked the one friend he'd made so far: "Hey -- are we the only straight guys here or what?" 23693. jexster - 7/21/2002 12:08:14 PM One sharp straight boi... 23694. CalGal - 7/21/2002 1:38:55 PM 23695. robertjayb - 7/21/2002 11:18:21 PM WorldCom Busted---Big Time... 23696. iiibbb - 7/22/2002 12:41:36 PM Such a backwards agency sometimes... 23697. iiibbb - 7/22/2002 12:44:53 PM Reminds me of war of the worlds... 23698. robertjayb - 7/22/2002 4:04:55 PM Avila Charged... 23699. judithathome - 7/22/2002 4:54:12 PM Our Long National Nightmare Is Over 23700. iiibbb - 7/22/2002 5:00:18 PM Probably spawned from the same instinct as pumping the gas pedal when your car won't start. 23701. concerned - 7/22/2002 5:03:28 PM Eight years of a scandal a week, economic bubble fabricating, incompetent, treasonous, terrorist coddling, nepotistic prevaricator. 23702. concerned - 7/22/2002 5:15:27 PM Btw, I saw GWB speak live this morning, and he was better and more relaxed at it than I had come to expect from the sound bites that I have seen in the mass media. Even if not the most eloquent speaker in the world (but who is?), he managed to speak to the point while being in turn serious, humorous, observant and extemporaneous while committing essentially no verbal gaffes and with hardly more than a slight hesitation here or there. 23703. Jamie r - 7/23/2002 4:53:05 PM Chaim Potok died of cancer today. He was 73. 23704. joezan - 7/23/2002 4:58:26 PM RIP, Chaim - one of my favorite authors. 23705. marjoribanks - 7/23/2002 6:14:00 PM Hmm, I had no idea he was still around. 23706. robertjayb - 7/23/2002 6:30:01 PM 23707. robertjayb - 7/24/2002 1:11:48 AM Girl got grit; gets loose!(NYTimes) 23708. DocBrown - 7/24/2002 10:59:33 AM Have you always wanted to write your own "End of the World" novel? Then today's your lucky day! 23709. marjoribanks - 7/24/2002 12:28:55 PM Hmm. I wonder if I should go ahead with that college fund for my two-year-old. 23710. arkymalarky - 7/24/2002 1:51:51 PM SDI will be able to zap it by then, so y'all can put your "The End is Near" signs back in the basement. 23711. judithathome - 7/24/2002 1:55:25 PM True...it might be able to hit that large a target. 23712. betty - 7/24/2002 1:57:56 PM Erica's abduction took place not far from my old neighborhoods. this story really affected me and i was cheering for her when i read the story this morning. 23713. arkymalarky - 7/24/2002 2:05:42 PM That reminds me of a local story involving two kids of a former student of mine in the tiny town closest to us. 23714. robertjayb - 7/24/2002 9:17:56 PM Anyone for toll house cookies? 23715. joezan - 7/24/2002 10:09:37 PM We just had a very bizarre kidnapping here. 23716. arkymalarky - 7/24/2002 11:26:05 PM Your stories are really beginning to sound more like the ones around here. I noticed that the other day. 23717. robertjayb - 7/25/2002 11:40:04 AM Road trip. Geezer alert for U.S. 75, I-44 and 55. Avoid green 4-runner with codger in funny hat. 23718. thoughtful - 7/25/2002 12:53:10 PM Story this a.m. about a man went to rob a bank...caught on camera trying to enter the bank wearing a mask. Seems the guy showed up 8 min after the bank closed and couldn't get in. Police apprehended him. 23719. concerned - 7/26/2002 4:08:01 PM Ga. Crematory Operator Speaks Out 23720. arkymalarky - 7/26/2002 5:22:55 PM Since when does one idiot's actions have squat to do with any other culture's consciousness, white or otherwise? 23721. concerned - 7/26/2002 5:29:21 PM Well, it does. The extent to which is does is open to argument. 23722. concerned - 7/26/2002 5:29:48 PM ...it does.... 23723. arkymalarky - 7/26/2002 5:37:46 PM How? 23724. concerned - 7/26/2002 5:41:49 PM Because human behavior is largely determined by culturally related beliefs and attitudes. 23725. arkymalarky - 7/26/2002 5:46:36 PM Huh? By what "culturally related beliefs and attitudes" were Jeffrey Daumer's actions determined? 23726. arkymalarky - 7/26/2002 5:48:44 PM For that matter, what "culturally related beliefs and attitudes" of his own heritage determined that this sheister would dump bodies he was supposed to be burning? 23727. wonkers2 - 7/27/2002 11:22:41 AM Aberrant behavior is by definition not determined by "culturally related beliefs and values." 23728. joezan - 7/27/2002 4:59:54 PM What the heck was that guy getting at, anyway, when at his bail hearing he declared, I'm a Black man - this is the South...? 23729. joezan - 7/27/2002 5:04:26 PM I mean, is there some inmate code I haven't heard about which places improper disposal of human remains by a Black man right up there with child molestation on the List Of Offenses Even Convicts Can't Stomach? 23730. EricCartman - 7/27/2002 5:30:29 PM Hey, it worked for Michael Jackson.... 23731. RickNelson - 7/28/2002 10:08:13 AM Wonkers, 23732. RickNelson - 7/28/2002 10:08:45 AM At least the nine miners have been saved! Good news that! 23733. RickNelson - 7/28/2002 10:10:18 AM joe, 23734. wonkers2 - 7/28/2002 11:08:17 AM 23735. betty - 7/30/2002 6:34:12 PM Judge Orders Changes In Abstinence Program in Alabama 23736. Sadie Q - 7/31/2002 9:34:51 AM 23737. RickNelson - 7/31/2002 9:39:03 AM Oh, I'm sorry Sadie Q. That's horrible. That's why more and more people want to have a gun in their home. It's such a scary feeling to ponder these serial killers. With our transient life styles we havn't the community connections we might feel safer within. 23738. Sadie Q - 7/31/2002 9:44:35 AM Gun sales are way up here, which is scary too. I wouldn't want to be a UPS guy or something of that sort around here. Someone's probably going to panic and start shooting at them one day. 23739. wonkers2 - 8/1/2002 3:02:13 PM SadieQ, I spent second grade through high school in Baton Rouge and think of it as my hometown. Jexter is from New Roads, and I believe VonKreedon is also from the area. I don't recall a murder while I lived there although I'm sure there must have been a few. 23740. Sadie Q - 8/1/2002 7:14:50 PM I thought it was you who was from BR, wonkers. The current situation is certainly not something you'd expect here, although murders haven't been unheard of for several years now. There's about one a week usually, I'd guess. 23741. wonkers2 - 8/1/2002 10:36:51 PM They've found the virus in a few crows in Michigan but no humans. 23742. magoseph - 8/2/2002 7:57:43 AM Concerning the abductor of the two young girls, it appears obvious to me that the California legislature was very wise in decreeing life in prison for felonies committed without murder and death for those committed with murder. Undoubtedly, the two young men owe their life to the distinction made by the legislature. 23743. arkymalarky - 8/7/2002 12:07:14 AM Dadgum, Sadie. We're going to have to mail you a Mote care package of a .357 and a case of Off (I know y'all aren't Mississippians, but just in case, use the gun on the killer and the Off for the mosquitoes, not vice versa): 23744. bubbaette - 8/7/2002 8:24:28 AM At last count there had been 7 dead crows with W.Nile virus in my part of town but no humans ill with the virus. The extreme drought has reduced the mosquito population overall, though, compared with the last few years. Now when I douse with bug spray and stay within my circle of lit citronella torches, I only get two or three bites as compared to 10 or 12 last year. 23745. theDiva - 8/7/2002 8:31:37 AM Skin So Soft is DA BOMB. Them dang skeeters don't even light when you got that stuff on. 23746. bubbaette - 8/7/2002 8:34:12 AM The mosquitos in my yard scoff at skin so soft. 23747. theDiva - 8/7/2002 8:40:45 AM man. 23748. bubbaette - 8/7/2002 8:50:36 AM The worst are those stripped asian mosquitos -- they just don't care about silly lotions and torches -- they want BLOOD. 23749. arkymalarky - 8/7/2002 10:24:56 AM Mosquitoes are so bad in the Delta in AR they have a Mosquitofest every year where they serve food cooked with mosquitoes--mosquito pizza, mosquito salsa, mosquito cookies--not a one of those is made up. And they really eat it. Ugh. 23750. judithathome - 8/7/2002 10:57:07 AM Coffee Proposals Have Some Steamed 23751. wabbit - 8/7/2002 8:36:00 PM 23752. RickNelson - 8/7/2002 8:40:02 PM Gawd! 23753. wabbit - 8/7/2002 9:07:16 PM The next Powerade commercial: Orca smashes kayaker (streaming video) 23754. joezan - 8/7/2002 10:49:42 PM 23755. ronski - 8/9/2002 2:31:40 PM Charlton Heston says he has symptoms of Alzheimer's. 23756. arkymalarky - 8/9/2002 3:46:23 PM He's just now figuring that out? 23757. Al D - 8/9/2002 4:27:50 PM When I was teaching High School( for only 8 years) it surprised me how mean spirited and hateful they were. I've done lots of jobs, but working with teachers was the worst experience of my life. But I guess with what teachers go through, it is to be expected. 23758. Wombat - 8/9/2002 4:47:48 PM I've found Heston in his incarnation as the NRA's poster boy to be hateful and mean-spirited. I guess they had better pry that gun out of his still living hands before he does himself--or somebody else--a mischief. 23759. betty - 8/9/2002 5:11:48 PM Wombat, 23760. ronski - 8/9/2002 7:31:43 PM I don't think of teachers as hateful and mean-spirited. Rather more like thousands and thousands of Edna Krabappels. 23761. arkymalarky - 8/9/2002 7:33:18 PM AlD, come down from your high-horse before you fall off and hurt yourself. 23762. Al D - 8/9/2002 7:53:44 PM 23763. arkymalarky - 8/9/2002 8:07:03 PM I'm never cryptic. You, however, are not a speck subtle. 23764. Al D - 8/9/2002 8:20:51 PM Does tht work for Women, too. Talk about being sanctimonious! You are great at dishing it out, but very thin skined. I imagine you could reall work over some poor student who happened to step on your big arky foot. Are there any Dems who favor the NRA that you take umbrage with? I doubt it. Most people have a bit of sympathy, even with those they are in disagreement with politically, when they suffer from an affliction. On what do you base your statement that he diagnosed himself. In fact? 23765. arkymalarky - 8/9/2002 8:29:55 PM I imagine you could reall work over some poor student who happened to step on your big arky foot. 23766. arkymalarky - 8/9/2002 8:30:43 PM You may recall that even Bush Sr. destroyed his NRA membership card. 23767. Al D - 8/9/2002 8:39:57 PM arky 23768. arkymalarky - 8/9/2002 8:48:08 PM If I hated conservatives I could not hang out here, teach in the Bible Belt, or likely even live in the South. I would have to disown half my relatives. You overreacted to a passing remark. 23769. RickNelson - 8/9/2002 8:53:40 PM An MSNBC link had this excerpt. 23770. RickNelson - 8/9/2002 8:55:58 PM Slate has a bit also, in the explainer. 23771. arkymalarky - 8/9/2002 9:10:21 PM Al, 23772. Al D - 8/9/2002 9:18:19 PM arky 23773. arkymalarky - 8/9/2002 11:57:12 PM Only until the bugs come out at dusk this time of year. But in general I can't speak for elsewhere, but country Southerners definitely have "sittin' porches." Drive down the highway and look from side to side in the late afternoon and you'll see lots of people out here on their porches--especially the ones who don't have air conditioning or can't afford to run it. 23774. judithathome - 8/10/2002 12:07:53 AM Okay, go HERE and click on "When Animals Attack News Anchors" and once the page pops up, click on the film window...this is one of those funny things that happen when they are doing live remotes. It happened this morning when the local crew was doing a story at an animal habitat in Dallas.... 23775. arkymalarky - 8/10/2002 12:21:23 AM Well phooey. I never could get it to play. I guess I'm going to bed and maybe it will play when I turn the computer on tomorrow. 23776. magoseph - 8/10/2002 5:52:34 AM Tracking Bloggers With Blogdex 23777. magoseph - 8/10/2002 6:34:39 AM I really should check articles' dates. No doubt this is not news to most of you. I apologize. 23778. jexster - 8/12/2002 2:57:57 PM US Breaks Up HUGE Latin Child Smuggling Ring 23779. jexster - 8/12/2002 3:25:21 PM 23780. joezan - 8/13/2002 10:11:47 PM Well, thank God for this: 23781. jexster - 8/14/2002 7:36:30 PM Texas Executes Mexican 23782. jexster - 8/14/2002 7:58:31 PM Hate New York City 23783. jexster - 8/14/2002 7:58:52 PM San Fernando Valley (we love it!) 23784. jexster - 8/14/2002 7:59:28 PM San Fernando Valley (we love it!)love it love it 23785. Cellar Door - 8/14/2002 9:04:20 PM 23786. ivan osokin - 8/14/2002 9:19:43 PM Stocks ready to drop as Evil Empire cautiously confesses its malfeasance 23787. RickNelson - 8/15/2002 7:31:12 AM Cellar, 23788. judithathome - 8/15/2002 8:59:29 AM It's weird how we are expected to accept the deaths of children as working toward anti-terrorism. I really can't get my mind around it, frankly. 23789. Rama - 8/15/2002 9:04:16 AM We don't seem to be any safer than we were before 9/11. 23790. magoseph - 8/15/2002 9:12:21 AM Were you a big Taliban fan, by-the-way. Cause if you are, I can see how you would be upset that they aren't running things anymore. 23791. judithathome - 8/15/2002 9:16:08 AM No, Rama, I wasn't a fan of the Taliban and am not still. I'm not looking to argue huge esoteric issues nor am I trying to push an agenda...I was just making a comment. 23792. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/15/2002 1:55:36 PM Yes, banal and uniformed do come to mind. 23793. Rama - 8/15/2002 2:00:36 PM I thought this was still a free country where we have freedom of expression, no matter how banal and uninformed that expression might seem to others. 23794. Dr.XavierTColtrane - 8/15/2002 2:02:53 PM The country may be free but in these domiciles there is always the little patter of strutting jackboots. 23795. judithathome - 8/15/2002 2:50:27 PM Yes, banal and uniformed do come to mind. 23796. RickNelson - 8/15/2002 2:52:24 PM Oh my, oh-- YES--- strut baby strut. Give- me- those jackboots, give 'em to me-- 23797. ivan osokin - 8/15/2002 4:47:53 PM judith et al: 23798. Rama - 8/15/2002 4:52:03 PM the left is consistent whereas the right is opportunistically hypocritical. 23799. concerned - 8/15/2002 5:31:22 PM Re. 23797 - 23800. jexster - 8/15/2002 6:11:53 PM Sad spectacle today, the announcement that the survivors of 9-1-1 were filing suit. 23801. ivan osokin - 8/15/2002 10:33:56 PM concerned: 23802. ivan osokin - 8/15/2002 10:36:09 PM Rama: 23803. concerned - 8/15/2002 10:44:00 PM re. 23801 - 23804. ivan osokin - 8/15/2002 11:04:37 PM you can't admit malevolence in your precious conservatives, can ya? 23805. ivan osokin - 8/15/2002 11:43:48 PM concerned, 23806. joezan - 8/15/2002 11:50:58 PM the only difference between the fundie muslim and the fundie christian is that the fundie muslim doesn't have access to as much porn. their goals are otherwise virtually the same for society. 23807. joezan - 8/16/2002 7:34:28 AM Update on a local story I mentioned last week: 23808. Rama - 8/16/2002 8:40:03 AM However, if the right says it's 6:15, you must agree...because any opposition will be beaten, bombed, bullied and brutalized until it believes it is 6:15. 23809. judithathome - 8/16/2002 9:24:41 AM Protest in front of an abortion clinic? 23810. Wombat - 8/16/2002 9:31:52 AM If fanatical antiabortionists thought that they could eliminate abortions by flying an airplane into the Department of Health and Human Services in Washington DC, would they? That is the question that Joe Z. needs to consider. 23811. RickNelson - 8/16/2002 9:52:16 AM This is savekaryn.com the website noted on this mornings "Good Morning America". 23812. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 9:53:23 AM No, if the right says it is 6:15, it actually is 6:15. 23813. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 9:54:59 AM wombat...that's a perfect question. would they do anything different? if the fundies could have a taliban-like state and still make money off it, would they? 23814. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 9:56:47 AM how manipulative and oppressive the US can be against anyone who commits the equivalent of "crimes against the state" (i.e., saying it may not be 6:15 after all). 23815. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 10:10:07 AM If fanatical antiabortionists thought that they could eliminate abortions by flying an airplane into the Department of Health and Human Services in Washington DC, would they? That is the question that Joe Z. needs to consider. 23816. Wombat - 8/16/2002 10:21:42 AM If Edmund would make himself aware of some of the stuff that Right-wing and religious extremists in this country have considered, and in some cases attempted, he wouldn't write such tripe. 23817. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 10:31:34 AM the crucial difference (fundie vs. fundie) is not one of ideology or action, it's of strategy and of institutions. 23818. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 10:32:50 AM You are obviously unable to distinguish between what someone might do, might want to do, or any other hypothetical and what has been done. Otherwise, you would not insist upon "there being no difference" when your every post demonstrates there is. 23819. Wombat - 8/16/2002 10:40:20 AM Coincidentally enough Edmund, let's deal with the actual: 23820. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 10:43:58 AM reserving judgment until after an action has taken place would be fine if it were done. however, since we arrest people on suspicion of things....the dirty bomber comes to mind, even though he didn't DO anything...the charge of hypocrisy is once again aimed at the conservatives. 23821. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 10:45:22 AM If Eric Rudolph had access to a truckload of explosives as did Timothy McVeigh, do you think that his Christian morals would inhibit him from using it to inflict mass casualties to advance the cause of a greater good? 23822. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 10:45:46 AM thanks wombat...i was about to post a link to that. 23823. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 10:46:45 AM Fake anthrax equals real jet airplanes? 23824. Wombat - 8/16/2002 10:47:39 AM Ivan: 23825. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 10:47:43 AM fake anthrax letters, if done by a muslim, would be considered an act of terrorism. 23826. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 10:50:51 AM fake anthrax letters, if done by a muslim, would be considered an act of terrorism. 23827. Daniel Sickles - 8/16/2002 10:52:10 AM Anti-abortionists belong with the occasionally violent leftists of the 1960s. Occasional crackpot violence, but no murder policy. Moreover, philosophically, there is a significant divergence. The goal of an antiabortionist in killing an abortionist or in bombing a clinic is both practical and political. One, to chill abortions, and two, to deliver unto God someone they consider a Mengele or Eichmann because they are actually performing abortions. To their mind, the Women's Reproductive health crisi Center is just a mini-Treblinka, and every day you can shut it down is one less day the gas ovens are humming. 23828. Wombat - 8/16/2002 10:53:38 AM Edmund: 23829. Daniel Sickles - 8/16/2002 10:55:48 AM That's a rather scary sleight of linkage, but if it does the trick, I suppose Kaczynski ran in the circles of leftist Harvard. 23830. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 10:57:14 AM And the Mote is responsible should Sako take out the President. 23831. Daniel Sickles - 8/16/2002 11:00:13 AM As for McVeigh, his true symapthies were not religious, so, perhaps it is those circles that should concern us. 23832. joezan - 8/16/2002 11:02:23 AM in philadelphia, for instance, the police thugs in conservative administrations have not only defied any constitutionality, they've dropped BOMBS on people who were Lefties. 23833. Daniel Sickles - 8/16/2002 11:02:30 AM Wombat's take is kind of regurgitated McCarthyism, but it is fun for the whole family. 23834. Wombat - 8/16/2002 11:03:45 AM Sickles: 23835. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 11:05:07 AM McVeigh was at Elohim City... 23836. Wombat - 8/16/2002 11:06:47 AM Analysing terrorism requires examining the communities of sympathizers from whence terrorists come. I am sorry if Sickles thinks it is McCarthyism when it involves anyone except Al Qaeda. 23837. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 11:08:54 AM Islamic fundamentalists are fighting something for which the United States is a sympton, not a cause, namely modernity. 23838. Daniel Sickles - 8/16/2002 11:09:05 AM Wombat 23839. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 11:09:44 AM joez: 23840. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 11:13:00 AM No one is "forcing the Arabs" into modernity because they have oil. 23841. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 11:14:05 AM Let me go on record here and now of supporting the Arab right to remain less modern. 23842. Wombat - 8/16/2002 11:16:06 AM Edmund: 23843. Daniel Sickles - 8/16/2002 11:20:19 AM I retract my assertion that McVeigh was at Elohim City. 23844. Wombat - 8/16/2002 11:22:24 AM Ivan: 23845. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 11:22:34 AM actually, i wonder... 23846. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 11:24:08 AM One of the links said they have 70 to 90 residents, so they're hardly a significant group one way or the other. Probably not factorally bigger than the Manson family at its peak. 23847. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 11:30:19 AM again...we return to "Marxism is state-ism". why is this considered "Left?" just because it's anti-capitalist? 23848. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 11:30:20 AM You have it backwards, Ivan. 23849. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 11:32:15 AM They came from the left, and based their beliefs and actions on their interpretation of Marx and other leftist thinkers. 23850. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 11:35:53 AM ED: 23851. Edmund Dantes - 8/16/2002 11:45:49 AM the best way to benefit from their oil was to give THEM the material benefits of modernity. 23852. betty - 8/16/2002 12:54:21 PM Wombat, 23853. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 1:02:42 PM Earlier you said we were forcing them to modernize. Now we're "giving" them "benefits." Is there no distinction between those two? 23854. PelleNilsson - 8/16/2002 1:36:22 PM ivan 23855. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 1:45:14 PM That definition belongs to the specialized terminology employed in the anarcho-syndicalist community and has little relevance in the general political discussion. 23856. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 1:47:59 PM You are wong when you link Arab modernisation with oil. The modernisation drive was spearheaded by Nasser in the 50s. Egypt has no oil. 23857. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 1:49:07 PM and since we were discussing specifically Oil producing nations and specifically fundamentalist regimes, egypt is irrelevant. 23858. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 1:55:54 PM Pelle: 23859. PelleNilsson - 8/16/2002 2:36:35 PM ivan 23860. joezan - 8/16/2002 3:21:29 PM ivan: 23861. PelleNilsson - 8/16/2002 3:34:56 PM ivan 23862. ivan osokin - 8/16/2002 3:39:50 PM a) i am not a member of MOVE, nor is betty. 23863. concerned - 8/16/2002 5:43:06 PM . the only difference between the fundie muslim and the fundie christian is that the fundie muslim doesn't have access to as much porn. their goals are otherwise virtually the same for society. 23864. concerned - 8/16/2002 5:44:16 PM Just kidding, of course, just like you were with your foolish broad brush bloviation wrt right wingers. 23865. concerned - 8/16/2002 5:46:23 PM Nevertheless, I think IO is a paranoiac, since he seems to irrationally obsess about imaginary dangers from conservatives and their purported demonic and subhuman motivations. 23866. concerned - 8/16/2002 5:48:47 PM Wonder if IO will ever figure out that most of the so-called Christian Right voted for little Jimmuh Cahtuh who is distinguishable from other Lefties not by the magnitude of his delusions nor by much else, except by the absence of personal corruption. 23867. concerned - 8/16/2002 5:53:02 PM I think it's extra ironic that the likes of IO, by expending all their energy opposing imaginary conservative bugaboos, allow themselves to be easily manipulated by Islamic extremists. 23868. ronski - 8/16/2002 6:08:50 PM 23869. concerned - 8/16/2002 6:18:43 PM Sorry, ronski - it'll never sell. I really and truly regret having to crush the hate strewn hopes and dreams of the lunatic Left, but militant Islam is the only real theological national, let alone global threat. 23870. concerned - 8/16/2002 6:20:03 PM To say CC's and Islamists are the same is about as sensible as for one to say his ass and a gopher hole are identical. 23871. concerned - 8/16/2002 6:23:39 PM Really. The Left getting into a bunker mentality over CC's is one of the stupidest things I've ever observed. 23872. concerned - 8/16/2002 6:31:12 PM Oh, well. I suppose that if an 'ideology' is really 'for' nothing as present-day Leftism is, it can only justify its continued existence by becoming a persistent nihilistic influence on society. 23873. concerned - 8/16/2002 6:37:08 PM One of the more farcical catch phrases of the last administration was 'reinventing ......'. If you explore the rationales which have driven the associated behavior, you come to the conclusion that only people who lack respect for or understanding of essential realities indulge willy nilly in such initiatives because they're some combination of being deluded, ignorant, incompetent, or terminally cynical. 23874. joezan - 8/16/2002 7:11:38 PM c) most of the west philly neighborhood where the MOVE bombing took place was opposed to police tactics against MOVE. currently, as the city destroyed an ENTIRE block of houses belonging to working class people with no particular activist agenda (who were also black, i might add), those (black people, i reiterate) whose houses were destroyed were basically given the choice of taking what turns out to be less than a fair market value of their homes or they get nothing. so for years, these displaced people got the shaft. 23875. joezan - 8/16/2002 7:14:29 PM d) having walked by pam afrika's house on a number of occasions (i once looked at a house on her block to rent), and having heard the current MOVE members speak, i can say that while i couldn't be a member of MOVE, i would support their activities to protest the philadelphia police and judicial system (a notoriously corrupt and brutal partnership) and would be glad to be one of their neighbors. 23876. betty - 8/16/2002 8:02:04 PM Joe, 23877. betty - 8/16/2002 8:03:23 PM Joe, 23878. betty - 8/16/2002 8:03:29 PM Joe, 23879. betty - 8/16/2002 8:03:43 PM Joe, 23880. betty - 8/16/2002 8:03:48 PM Joe, 23881. betty - 8/16/2002 8:04:49 PM As for MOVE today. I find them a bit extreme for my own tastes, but I wouldn't decribe them as anti-social wackos. In fact they are very involved with the neighborhood and I have broken bread a few times with them. They say fuck a whole lot and have found them to have varying degrees of education and literacy. They seem no more cultish to me than your average christian, and the kids who grew up in the movement seem, more or less well adjusted. And I mean the more or less part. Some of them seem very well adjusted, others don't. 23882. betty - 8/16/2002 8:05:47 PM I'm sorry the girl was pressing keys on the keyboard, that was not intentional but annoying still. 23883. joezan - 8/16/2002 11:50:34 PM It's [Philly] a city government long considered the most corrupt in America... 23884. Cellar Door - 8/17/2002 12:11:54 PM "I should also mention, ftr, that the "bomb" (actually a concussion bomb) was not meant to do any damage at all" 23885. jexster - 8/17/2002 2:06:55 PM Sound Familiar??? 23886. jexster - 8/17/2002 2:07:49 PM "Verdugo" "Montoya" of the Cuban persuasion? 23887. ronski - 8/17/2002 5:28:25 PM connie, 23888. jexster - 8/17/2002 8:54:14 PM Time to shove the Great Writ up the Royal butthole 23889. joezan - 8/18/2002 9:42:49 AM Back to Move for a minute: 23890. RickNelson - 8/18/2002 10:26:34 AM What?! 23891. RickNelson - 8/18/2002 10:38:20 AM Dr. Kissinger noted that the first war by Bush Sr. gained coalition support by building up troops in the region first. Well, now we know where W got his idea to do the same. If it works, what does that mean about the support? It's not support using such methods. 23892. OhioSTOPAS - 8/18/2002 1:28:01 PM "Both tragedies [Branch Davidians and MOVE]were initiated by Democrat [sic] admins. 23893. robertjayb - 8/19/2002 10:58:13 PM Bear does his bear thing, nabs child... 23894. robertjayb - 8/19/2002 11:07:47 PM Mickey Gilley wrote a song about it... 23895. robertjayb - 8/20/2002 10:23:27 AM Oooops! 23896. concerned - 8/20/2002 11:39:02 AM Segway isn't really Ginger, or the Skipper or Gilligan, either 23897. glendajean - 8/20/2002 3:15:42 PM When I was in England, the story of two missing girls was at the top of all tv newscasts and on the front pages of the newspapers. Police have now arrested a suspect. 23898. robertjayb - 8/20/2002 5:36:41 PM One of the recent Mystery series was along a similar line to these murders. Eeerie. 23899. robertjayb - 8/20/2002 5:36:49 PM One of the recent Mystery series was along a similar line to these murders. Eeerie. News and Current Events, pt. 4 | News and Current Events, pt. 6
"It was one of those stupid things. If you go to Las Vegas, you drink, you gamble and you get married, which is what I did, although I regret it now."
"It was one of those stupid things. If you go to Las Vegas, you drink, you gamble and you get married, which is what I did, although I regret it now."
This map identifies the storm's current location and its forecast path for the next three days. The shaded area illustrates the margin of error in the forecast.
The yellow lines running through the shaded area represent time periods. The first yellow line is the storm's estimated position 12 hours from now. The second line represents 24 hours (1 day), the third is 36 hours, the fourth is 48 hours (2 days), and the last line is 72 hours (3 days).
The CIA hoped the cat, rigged up with microphones and an antennae in its tail, could pad around unnoticed and listen in on secret spy conversations.
Having never really experienced them (but having, of course, seen photos and film of them), I can't say for sure, but I don't think they could possibly be any more spectacular anywhere on earth than what I am seeing right now.
Why does the map say "Tropical Storm Noel"?
November 5, 2001, 10 p.m. EST
Noel weakens to a tropical storm over the north Atlantic
Coordinates: 40.4 north, 49.5 west
Location: 465 miles SSE of Cape Race, Newfoundland
Movement: NNE near 12 mph
Windspeed: 70 mph (113 km/hr)
Central pressure: 990 millibars (29.23 inches)
Forecast: A northward motion with an increase in forward speed is expected over the next 24 hours. Noel is expected to pass to the east of Newfoundland on Tuesday. Further weakening is forecast during the next 24 hours.
Next update: November 6, 2001, 4 a.m. EST
--AP--The aurora borealis appeared with rare intensity in skies across the country, treating onlookers as far south as California and Georgia to a shimmering display of red and green lights.
Monday night's display began around 8:50 p.m. EST.
The ghostly streaks, better known as the Northern Lights, are rarely seen south of Canada and Alaska.
The broad blue and green spiked band was tinged with brilliant red areas.
As of 1 p.m. EST
Location: 28.0 N, 67.0 W or 330 miles SSW of Bermuda
Moving: ENE near 25-30 mph
Wind: 75 mph
Pressure: 980
Tropical Storm Noel:
As of 10 a.m. EST
Location: 44.0 N, 48.2 W or 295 miles SE of Cape Race, Newfoundland
Moving: NNE near 21 mph
Wind: 50 mph
Pressure: 996 mb
I'm reliably told that in the north of Sweden the northern lights, when intense, do make a crackling noise. similar to paper being torn.
;-)
I just heard on the radio - they're supposed to be visible again tonight.
Then, slowly, they began to shimmer and grow wider - the shimmering first just at the edges, but then overtaking the entire display. That's when they started changing colors, and wavering out of their former linear pattern.
Later, around midnight, I went out again and it was arcs of shimmering, waving, multi-colored lights, expanding and contracting across almost the entire sky. 
http://www.spaceweather.com/aurora/gallery_06nov01.html
Sorry, I'm unable to make a link work...
btw, the above photo was made near San Diego...
GAINESVILLE, Ga. (AP) -- Three teen-agers trying to rob a food shop were scared off when the owner hurled an 8-pound ham and started swinging his fists.
``They didn't get anything,'' said Morris McClure, 61. ``I've worked too hard to give up my money to three punks like that.''
Sheriff Steve Cronic said McClure was attacked Thursday after one of the teens asked for ham.
BOSTON (AP) -- Seeing a beautiful woman triggers a pleasure response in a man's brain similar to what a hungry person gets from eating or an addict gets from a fix, scientists say.
Researchers said the study, published Wednesday in the journal Neuron, shows that feminine beauty affects a man's brain at a very primal level, not on some higher, more intellectual plane.
``Beauty is working similar to a drug,'' said Dan Ariely of Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management, a co-author of the study.
Researchers showed a group of heterosexual men in their mid-20s pictures of men and women of varying attractiveness, while measuring the brain's responses through computer imaging.
The beautiful women were found to activate the same ``reward circuits'' as food and cocaine do. The men had a negative reaction to pictures of good-looking males, suggesting they were threatened by them, study author Hans Breiter said.
WHO WILL RID ME OF THIS MAN?
CANBERRA, Australia (Reuters) - A woman began a lifelong sentence behind bars Friday, never to be released, for murdering and skinning her boyfriend in a cannibal orgy.
And all I was going to mention was that OJ's mom died.
Kesey, who felt it only proper that Genet meet another great writer, showed up, stoned, of course, to chat. After his chat he noticed the Panthers; he immediately wanted to play basketball. As he put it, "There's nothing better than playing basketball with Negroes. The Panthers figuring they were dealing with a nut case, split.
I met Kesey in S.F. in 1968, where he was holding a rally. He expressed dissatisfaction with the existing political party, so we all formed a new one, The Harmonic Party. I guess we all put up a buck or so, probably so Ken could get more stoned. Now he is gone and I all I can say is he ended up ashes, not dust.
Rest easy, Ken.
Not too long ago, around 1990, I had a chance to attend a play in Springfield, Ore. where Ken was in a small play. A good friend of mine was also in the play and, of course, there would be a party afterward. I blew it Cellar. Because it would have meant a trip of about 300 miles, I turned down the invitation, thinking there would be other times. Now I like Kesey, am running out of time. Do not ask for who the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
MOM CHARGED IN MISSISSIPPI FIRE THAT KILLED 6 KIDS
The mother of six children killed in a house fire in Mississippi was charged with manslaughter after authorities say it appeared they had been left home alone.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/11/mississippi.fire.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. investigators said on Tuesday initial information from the cockpit voice recorder found in the wreckage of an American Airlines plane indicated Monday's crash was an accident and not sabotage.
finally, some sliver of good news
The voice recorder only establishes that no one went to the cockpit and said "bwahahahaha! you're all gonna die!" But I think that was known anyway.
The real issue is whether or not it was a bomb or a catastrophic mechanical failure, and that can't be determined by the voice recorder. Not so's I know about it, anyway.
ASHINGTON, Nov. 13 -- U.S. investigators said on Tuesday initial information from the cockpit voice recorder found in the wreckage of an American Airlines plane indicated Monday's crash was an accident and not sabotage.
"The cockpit voice recorder is the biggest information that we have and a quick listen to that last evening in Washington showed nothing that would imply any sort of unusual activity in the cockpit other than the accident sequence," said National Transportation Safety Board spokesman George Black.
The first paragraph is not an accurate characterization of what Black said.
No normal person just snaps one day and decides to skin and cook her boyfriend. There are signs and portents that precede such utter lunacy.
Take my next-door neighbors, for example. They fight (not physically) and then he ends up kicking her out of the house. The cops have been over there more than a dozen times in the two and a half years they've lived there. This is not counting the times the fire department or the paramedics have been over because she thinks she's dying----or wants to go to the hospital and her boyfriend won't take her.
He's even had the cops come and make her vacate the premises. They stood over her while she packed and escorted her off the property.
And yet, however long she's gone she's always back living there within three months. She doesn't work. She can't hold a conversation---it's like talking to the black-heliocopter folks at the bus-stop----she's either deathly ill or a pathological hypochondriac AND this goes on around a six year old child over whom the guy has shared custody with his ex-wife (who seems quite sane).
Okay, this woman is clearly going to blow one day. She is going to poison them all at dinner or hack them into pieces or shoot them or burn down the house while they sleep. It's only a matter of time and yet he keeps letting her come back.
What is wrong with people?
I only heard that they thought there might've been a fuel dump, but that it seemed unlikely and were waiting to hear from Transportation/Coast Guard.
Also, I haven't heard anything about two engines falling off. All of the eye-witness accounts from yesterday only claimed one-----the one that fell into the boat in the backyard.
There is growing support that a compact flock of birds may be the cause, incidentally. Neither engine shows any evidence of internal problems.
Birds flying into the engine could certainly screw up the engine; I don't know that it would cause the engine to fall off. Besides, both engines? Birds? Falling off?
I suspect that it will be easy for many to see that I, um, don't exactly have an engineering degree.
Birds have always left me uneasy.
Both engines and the tail. That's really weird.
Evidence Suggests One or Both Engines Fell Off
Investigative sources said late yesterday that both of the Airbus A-300's engines and its vertical tail section, which were found apart from the main fuselage, appear to have broken away from the aircraft before the crash.
In the past, some airliners have suffered the sudden separation of one engine while in flight, but both engines on a twin-engine jet breaking away is extraordinary -- and raises the possibility of either sabotage or a major maintenance failure, the sources said.
"We're utterly baffled," said one official. "This is not even within statistical calibrations."
Those would be my two guesses, as well. But maintenance failure that caused both engines and the tail to fall off is hard to envision, unless someone just didn't put the plane back together again. But I don't think the maintenance that had been done the day before involved taking it off.
I'm not convinced either way about what caused this. But I hope to hell they're checking every last commercial jet down to its rivets.
I've been wondering if airlines are doing more inspections, or are spending their money on anti-terrorist things.
And, the maintenance log for this plane will be revealing as to whether they did anything about the advisory, and when they last did maintenance.
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/14/wny14.xml
Investigators believe that the unusually wide distribution of the A300's wreckage shows that pieces were falling off virtually throughout its three-minute flight, suggesting that the disaster's main contributory event occurred very early.
It's really sort of a scary article.
Snow, be happy you aren't on the one that crashes. Thanks for the site...it is scary.
The plane itself had received routine service on 11/9, iirc - just 3 days prior to the crash. It occurred to me when I heard this that perhaps during that service someone had loosened some stuff that should've been tightened, and I'm sure they've checked into that.
That's not a reasonable explanation. 747's create moderate amounts of turbulence compared to other passenger jets, &IAC, the JAL 747 passed through that airspace before the Airbust more than the minimum 2 minutes required by flight rules.
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- A man shot during a 1966 shooting spree at the University of Texas has died from complications from the gunshot wound to his only good kidney, officials said.
David H. Gunby, 58, was pronounced dead Monday at a Fort Worth hospital after deciding to stop dialysis treatment.
``We have had a couple of cases where a person died years later after an injury, but I don't think we've had a case that was this long, dated back this far,'' said Linda Anderson, a spokeswoman for the Tarrant County medical examiner.
Gunby, then a 23-year-old engineering student, was one of 31 people shot by Charles Whitman during a shooting spree from the top of the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin in August 1966. Sixteen people died after being shot by Whitman, who was killed by police.
I've never had a particulary good opinion of French engineering design. Cheap, unreliable automobiles such as Peugeots, and now meatbombs such as the Concorde and Airbust.
That puts me in mind of a joke about one definition of 'heaven on earth': English police, French Chefs and German Engineers
OTOH, 'hell on earth' is: German police, English Chefs and French Engineers
Senate Passes Two-Year Internet Tax Ban
By a voice vote, the Senate renewed a ban on Internet taxes that expired last month when lawmakers could not agree on a state sales tax provision.
United Puts Stun Guns in Cockpits
United Airlines will become the first major US airline to put Taser weapons, or stun guns, in every cockpit of its 500 planes.
Face Recognition Lands in California
At the Fresno, California, airport new digital-video cameras capture images of each traveler, store the images, and compare the passengers' features to a database of suspected terrorists.
There will be many, many terrorists in Fresno.
Really.
"Too late, Hijack Boy".
I believe they should go where they want to...out the door without a parachute as the plane flies over their desired destination.
(BBC)---Authorities in the United States have found another letter believed to contain anthrax.
The suspect letter was addressed to Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont, who chairs the Senate Judiciary Committee.
It was dated 9 October and postmarked from Trenton, New Jersey, as was an anthrax-contaminated letter sent to Senate leader, Tom Daschle.
...When a plane is heavy and traveling at a relatively slow speed, as would normally be the case just after takeoff, the steep deck angle required to maintain lift helps propagate a kind of twin-forking roil of air that trails behind the aircraft like an invisible wake from a ship. Two vortexes, one from each wingtip, are spun away like sideways tornadoes. The vortexes then begin a slow descent, and their counterrotations cause them to diverge slightly. Picture, if you will, two long, violent fingers of air protruding from the back of an airliner like a forked, downward-sloping tail. When moisture levels are high enough, the cores of these spinning currents, which can reach velocities of 300 feet per second, become visible, shooting from the wings as thin strands of condensed vapor.
DEERFIELD BEACH, Fla. --AP-- A man dashing across a lake on a customized personal watercraft at about 55 mph was killed in an apparent collision with a flying duck.
Leon Resnick, an employee of Riva Yamaha, was testing the water jet-propelled craft Thursday on a lake about 20 miles north of Fort Lauderdale, investigators said Monday.
A co-worker who was watching turned to pick up a radar gun to check Resnick's speed, and when he turned back Resnick was no longer aboard the craft.
Resnick, 31, of Hollywood, died of a blow to his head, the Broward County medical examiner's office said.
Egypt's most important film director Youssef Chahine is gay and has frequently featured gay characters and situations in his many films. Among his credit -- Adieu Bonaparte, starring my favorite gay director, Patrice Chereau, as Napoleon. The principle gay character in the film, however is played by Michel Piccoli.
Message # 21435
But what happened to the duck?
Sorry!
WICHITA, Kan. (Reuters) - A Kansas man who got a coat hanger stuck in his throat while trying to dislodge a balloon of cocaine he had swallowed faced possible criminal charges after doctors trying to remove the hanger discovered the drugs, police said Tuesday.
According to police, the man decided to stick the hooked end of a coat hanger into his throat in an effort to retrieve a small balloon he said he accidentally swallowed while at a party.
The dead duck is being held for investigation.
GRAPEVINE, Texas (AP) - A deer hunter's rifle accidentally went off at the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport on Friday as the owner tried to show a ticket agent that the weapon was not loaded. No one was hurt.
The bullet went through a window and landed in a planter.
Airport spokeswoman Tina Sharp said the incident happened as the gun's owner was checking luggage at a Delta ticket counter for an elk-hunting trip.
No charges were filed against the man. He and his wife were allowed to board a later flight. Airport operations were not interrupted.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal agencies are exploring new ways to measure poverty, a politically delicate endeavor that could boost the number of Americans considered to be among the poorest of the poor.
Part of the problem, critics say, is that the decades-old method of determining how many people are in poverty is outdated, and does not take enough account of factors such as skyrocketing child care and housing costs. Nor does it consider non-cash aid such as food stamps that some poor families get.
A recent Census Bureau report found that millions more Americans would be considered impoverished if test measurements that include some of the disputed elements were used.
"Pecking the Presidential Pecker?"
The bird mistook it for a grit pebble.
This was in the "Washington Post"... the title of the article was "Best Comeback Line Ever." This is pretty damn good. Drunk and horny, he still
came up with this! Police arrested Patrick Lawrence, a 22-year-old white male, resident
of Dacula, GA, in a pumpkin patch at 11:38 p.m.Friday. Lawrence will be charged with lewd and lascivious behavior, public indecency, and public intoxication at the Gwinnett County courthouse on Monday.
The suspect allegedly stated that as he was passing a pumpkin patch, he decided to stop. "You know, a pumpkin is soft and squishy inside, and there was no one around here for miles. At least
I thought there wasn't," he stated in a phone interview from the jail.
Lawrence went on to state that he pulled over to the side of the road, picked out a pumpkin that he felt was appropriate to his purposes, cut a hole in it, and proceeded to satisfy his alleged "need." "I guess I was just really into it, you know?", he commented with evident embarrassment.
In the process, Lawrence apparently failed to notice the Gwinnett County police car approaching and was unaware of his audience until officer Brenda Taylor approached him.
"It was an unusual situation, that's for sure," said officer Taylor. "I walked up to (Lawrence) and he's...just working away at this pumpkin."
Taylor went on to describe what happened when she approached Lawrence. "I just went up and said, 'Excuse me sir, but do you realize that you are screwing a pumpkin?' "He got real surprised, as you'd expect, and then looked me straight in the face and said, "A pumpkin? Damn...is it midnight already?"
By the way, is there a name for sex between humans and plants ?
I refuse to confirm or deny any romantic involvement with pumpkins.
You make it sound so ... perverted.
THIS MONTH'S FEATURES:
Love from the garden: Home-grown beauties!
Flirtin' Flora: Secrets to finding out if your Punkin's been cross-pollinating.
Hey - you know how people are always finding a potato or something that looks like Mother Theresa.
Imagine if someone grew one that looked like Angelina Jolie.
With what we know now about this veggie-sex subculture, what do you suppose a prize like that would get on e-bay?
How about this:
An anatomically-correct Mrs. Potato Head®?
Joe, only if there's an anatomically-correct Mister, too.
This kind of garbage always irritates me. It's just like the "victims of Timothy McVeigh", only 50 times worse. Keerist. They are already bitching about money they haven't received, now they want a say in when and how the workers work, what will be put in the site afterwards, etc.
It is simply disgusting that we give "loved ones" a voice based solely on how many folks happen to have died at the same time.
I have several issues with this. Firstly, I have no idea how reliable a source the Mirror is, but I suppose that doesn't matter to the ethical questions supposedly raised.
The doctor himself sounds like a bit of a nut, but essentially I don't see how what he plans to do is any different from In Vitro fertilization. Perhaps I misunderstood the explanation, but it seems that they take an egg and combine it with DNA from another person and thus create a fertilized egg. What's the big whoop? I don't think that even qualifies as cloning since cloning is creating a genetic replica ---which is not what you get if you start mixing DNA.
Then he started talking about the 150 MILLION spermless folks out there. Is he only worried about the spermless or is he concerned about the eggless and the sterile and the just plain unlucky---I'm not worried from a discrimination standpoint but rather from a sheer numbers standpoint. 150 million spermless, 150 million eggless, 300 million other, that's a lot of offspring. Then there's the fact that any fertility doctor who thinks that lack of sperm is the only reason some people don't have children shouldn't be practicing medicine.
Next I don't understand why someone who is Pro-Life would be against providing a way for a human child to be born to parents who very obviously want it. What's up with that? I can see why such a person might object to therapeutic cloning but not to reproductive cloning.
cont.
And what about therapeutic cloning? Is it necessary to create an actual "embryo" every time? I mean, they don't grow a whole person for a liver, take it out and then toss the rest. They want to grow a liver by itself. A liver isn't a person. Heck, a liver, two lungs, a heart and most of a spleen isn't a person either. A stem cell certainly isn't a person.
When a baby is born there are stem cells that can be collected from the umbilical cord and preserved. This is pretty recent technology and isn't done all that often. Mostly what happens is that little snippet of umblical chord gets tossed in the biohazzard canister. Stem cells aren't babies or embryos and can't be grown into babies or embryos. They can be grown into blood and livers and skin but you can't grow a person from a stem cell. So what's the problem?
Do we say to an 8-year-old girl dying of luekemia "Sorry, dear, but your life is less important than ensuring that these stem-cells which mostly we just throw away don't get misused."
The evening of his disappearance he had been in Memphis attending the annual meeting of the Scientific Advisory Board of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. He had been at a banquet for the board a short drive from the bridge over the Mississippi where his rental car was found abandoned at 4AM.
Soldiers advised by British SAS and US special forces officers poured oil into the thick-walled house where the Taliban were hiding. They set light to it. The last three fighters, by now armed only with a machine gun and a Kalashnikov, were forced upstairs. At 3.30pm, a tank roared into the citadel, crushing the bodies of several Pakistani and Arab Taliban volunteers lying in the way. It fired four rounds in quick succession at the Taliban's hideout from a distance of only 20 metres. The shells obliterated the building; then there was silence.
HOUSTON -- Enron Corp. teetered toward bankruptcy Wednesday after its smaller rival, Dynegy, called off its planned $8.4 billion acquisition of the energy giant.
Dynegy officials announced their decision shortly after two agencies downgraded Enron's credit rating to junk status triggering an obligation to immediately repay billions of dollars in debt that the once-mighty energy trader probably doesn't have the money to cover.
Enron (ENE) shares plunged $3.33, or 81 percent to 78 cents in Wednesday on the New York Stock Exchange; less than a year ago, they were trading at $84.87. With nearly 200 million shares exchanging hands, Enron smashed the one-day trading record for a NYSE-listed stock.
Enron (ENE: down $3.50 to $0.61, Research, Estimates). Dynegy (DYN: down $4.92 to $35.97, Research, Estimates). Dynegy said it is terminating a merger with Enron, the latest hit to the company whose shares traded above $70 earlier this year.
Standard & Poor's earlier Wednesday downgraded the company's debt to "junk" status, forcing accelerated debt payments by the embattled energy trader, which has posted losses and faces a lawsuit by employees whose retirement plans held the company's stock.
TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - A 3-foot-2-inch radio personality sued Wednesday, seeking to overturn Florida's ban on dwarf tossing so he can earn money in the barroom attraction.
Dave Flood, who appears on a morning radio talk show as ``Dave the Dwarf,'' said he doesn't think the state can dictate how he earns his living.
``They assume because you have some physical handicap you can't make decisions for yourself,'' Flood said. ``I don't have a mental handicap. I don't like the government telling me what I can and cannot do.''
The lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court names Gov. Jeb Bush and the head of the state agency which enforces the 1989 law. The law allows the state to revoke the liquor license or fine a bar that allows dwarf tossing, an activity that was popular in some Florida bars in the late 1980s.
Flood wants to wear a harness with handles so patrons at bars can pay to pick him up and toss him onto an air mattress or a padded area, his lawsuit said. The lawsuit, which does not seek damages, contends the ban is unconstitutional.
This couple got the brilliant idea to try to cash in on an insurance policy by claiming she was in the WTC on 9/11. No, she didn't bother to go into hiding or anything.
DH thought Zebulon (the town they live in) sounded like the name of a planet in a bad sci-fi flick.
VANCOUVER, British Columbia (Reuters) - A Canadian man has sued a Vancouver-area strip club, claiming he was injured by a "reckless" exotic dancer who kicked him in the head.
Greg Bonnett is seeking unspecified damages from the Barnet Motor Inn, claiming it was negligent in not posting prominent signs warning the public of the risk of sitting too close to the stage.
Bonnett was in the New Westminster club on Nov. 29, 2000 when a female dancer swung around a pole and kicked him, fracturing his nose, according to the lawsuit filed on Tuesday in British Columbia Supreme Court.
The Coquitlam man's lawsuit also seeks damages from the dancer, identified only as "Jane Doe," for allegedly "dancing in a negligent and reckless manner."
JACKSON, Ky. (AP) --Randolph Scott Stidham was so proud of shooting an enormous deer he drove it around town in the back of his pickup to show it off to friends.
They broke the bad news: He had actually bagged one of 1,300 protected elk that wildlife officials have been trying to restore to the state's Appalachian mountains.
Now Stidham, 38, faces more than $8,000 in fines and up to a year in jail.
``Anyone who mistakenly shoots an elk is an idiot,'' said Roy Grimes, deputy state fish and wildlife commissioner. ``If a person cannot tell the difference between an elk and a deer, they should get rid of their firearms.''
Spouse and I saw a few of Kentucky's elk a couple of summers ago. Also a good-sized herd of bison.
It was only 1,200 pounds but the woman is still dead, dead, dead.
BERLIN -- A civilian was killed when a heavy bundle of humanitarian supplies dropped by parachute crushed her house in northern Afghanistan, the U.S. military said Thursday.
A U.S. military aircraft flying from Ramstein Air Base in Germany dropped the bundle from a high altitude about 120 miles northeast of Mazar-e-Sharif, near Afghanistan's northern border.
The package of wheat, blankets and cold weather equipment hit the house before dawn Wednesday, according to U.S. Central Command in Florida. The bundle weighed 1200 pounds, according to Central Command spokesman Lt. Col. Martin Compton.
"The U.S. deeply regrets any unnecessary loss of life," Central Command said in a statement. "U.S. Central Command will examine the details of how this tragic accident occurred and will put in place appropriate corrective actions."
Anyway, on a Christmas run dropping food, gifts, and Christmas trees, the loadmaster kicked out the goodies over one site and then watched the tree spin down like an arrow and crash through the roof. The story is he yelled out, "Ho, Ho, Fucking Ho!" as they flew up, up, and away.
LONDON (Reuters) -Forget the reserve and stiff upper lip -- Britons are more open about sex, have more partners, homosexual experiences and pay for it more often than they did a decade ago.
A national sex survey published on Friday detailing changes and variations in sexual practices and attitudes from a similar poll just 10 years ago, shows Britons have come a long way since the strait-laced Victorian age.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Move over Barbie, the playmates are going plastic.
"Anatomically correct" doll replicas of some of the most famous of the bare-all playmates from Playboy magazine will soon be available under a deal signed by Los Angeles marketing firm The Stronghold Group and adult entertainment company Playboy Enterprises Inc.
The first limited edition doll is a replica of former Guess? Jeans catalog girl and 1997 Playmate of the Year, Swedish blonde bombshell Victoria Silvstedt, and is available from now through March.
"Victoria is the most popular playmate in Playboy history," Jeff Ahlholm, Stronghold chief executive officer, told Reuters. "Still to these days, she is one of the major images that Playboy uses."
Enron Corp. sought Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection today and filed a $10 billion lawsuit against Dynegy Corp. for breaking off its merger with the troubled Houston energy company.
With the filing will come substantial layoffs for Enron's 7,500 employees in Houston, a company statement said. Earlier estimates have put the figure as high as 3,000.
The bankruptcy filing is the culmination of a crisis that began at Enron with the disclosure of losses involving investment partnerships run by the company's chief financial officer at the time.
As investors and trading customers lost confidence in the company, its stock price tumbled and it was forced to seek additional financing.
A merger with Dynegy Corp. appeared to offer the company some prospects for recovery, but that deal fell apart last week as credit agencies lowered Enron's credit rating to a point that it triggered payment of additional obligations. The investment community saw a bankruptcy filing as inevitable.
Do not open any email that says "Hi, I saw this screen saver and immediately thought of you"
The attachement is a worm virus. Delete the email immediately and you should be okay.
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - It may be a warm and tipsy winter for dozens of monkeys and apes in a northern Indian zoo as the thermometer slides toward freezing over the next couple of months.
Authorities in the city of Lucknow have decided to serve the 35 or so primates at the local zoo a daily dose of brandy to ensure they stay warm and happy, the Asian Age newspaper reported on Friday.
Guess I'm just a rebel at heart.
Thing would be a beast to cancel.
After years of denying any link between illness and service in the Persian Gulf war, military officials said today that veterans of the conflict were nearly twice as likely as other soldiers to suffer the fatal neurological illness known as Lou Gehrig's disease.
The joint announcement by the Defense and Veterans Affairs Departments was based on the preliminary findings of a study of more than 2.5 million veterans. Officials said they would immediately offer disability and survivor benefits to affected patients and families. Forty cases have been identified so far.
"The hazards of the modern-day battlefield are more than bullet wounds and saber cuts," Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony J. Principi said in releasing the results of the study. "We have to be conscious of that and act accordingly."
Some scientists said the decision might be premature because the research had not been subjected to the analysis of peer review. An epidemiologic analysis, the study tracks patterns of disease, and does not prove that gulf war service was the cause of the disorder, formally called amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or A.L.S.
The authors did not offer theories on why gulf war veterans would be at increased risk. Nor did they say what the odds were that the finding occurred by chance. Conducted at a veterans' hospital in Durham, N.C., the study has been submitted for publication in an academic journal. Officials would not identify it.
That they specified they didn't want Flag stamps alone wouldn't have caused a problem if the volume weren't already so high. I imagine the cops hassled them about it because of personal feelings about patriotism not because there's any kind of alert through the Postal System about people who don't want to buy Flag stamps.
Although, there has been a suspicious man in a trenchcoat following me since I specified that I must have the Love stamps rather than flags in order to mail invitations to a bridal shower.
This from FOX News.
WASHINGTON --Muslim organizations are struggling to encourage use of the recently issued U.S. postage stamp honoring Islamic holidays.
The dark blue stamp with gold calligraphy went on sale 10 days before the Sept. 11 attacks. Activists now fear a public backlash could condemn the stamp -- the product of a five-year lobbying effort -- to oblivion.
you just can't ever have enough shit, huh?
BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. (AP) - Actress Winona Ryder was arrested for illegal drug possession and shoplifting clothing from a Saks Fifth Avenue boutique, police said Thursday.
Security guards at the Wilshire Boulevard store detained the 30-year-old Wednesday after discovering her trying to steal hair accessories and "numerous items of clothing" valued at $4,760, Lt. Gary Gilmond said.
Police arrested her and later found she was carrying narcotics, he said. She was booked on charges of grand theft and possessing pharmaceutical drugs without a prescription. Police did not disclose the kind of drug.
Ryder's lawyer Mark Geragos denied the allegations. He said Ryder had a prescription for the painkillers and receipts for the items she allegedly stole.
"It's a misunderstanding on the part of the store," he said, adding that Ryder was carrying the items between store departments.
Gilmond said Ryder may have a prescription for the drugs but she was booked because she couldn't immediately produce it. He added that store security officers saw a surveillance video in which Ryder was allegedly removing tags from the items.
Ryder was released from custody Wednesday night after posting $20,000 bail.
Shoplifting Was Research
Troubled actress WINONA RYDER was acting out a role when she was caught shoplifting in Los Angeles.
what a fucking moron. and computer virus writers are doing it just to 'research' too.
The 30-year-old star was arrested last week after surveillance cameras allegedly caught her cramming clothes, hair accessories and a handbag worth an estimated total of $4,900 into a bag.
But the actress, stopped by security staff in the SAKS FIFTH AVENUE department store in Beverly Hills, snapped back, "I'm doing this for research for my job."
According to British tabloid the NEWS OF THE WORLD a source close to the investigation told how Winona stunned guards by claiming a movie director had advised her to try shoplifting for a forthcoming screen role.
He adds, "She told them the director had suggested she do this for research."
Pals say Winona, who was released on $20,000 bail, will now seek treatment at the exclusive PROMISES clinic in Malibu, California.
From an article by Walter Williams.
The 291 who voted for this bill should go to rehab. How would I go about finding which 120 voted against?
The speech by former Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani failed to catch the attention of the western press but made waves in the Middle East.
Your wish is my command, at least in this instance.
Thanks. Looks like the blame is pretty well shared. A pox on both their houses.
It's that damned representative democracy at work -- those foolish damned rural reps of both parties think they're supposed to represent the interests of their constituencies -- no matter how self-centered it may seem to those who reside outside their districts. Dad blamed democracy -- there's got to be a better way.
But what you told me back there was that it was mainly the Repubs. that favored all these give away programs. Seems like they both like to give away money that really isn't their's. To it's nice to know you love both parties. Never would have guessed it.
I actually heard this rumored for the first time three years ago and mentioned it online, I'm pretty sure. It's been very clear that something was wrong with him for quite some time.
Kind of like calling getting stabbed in the back a "massage."
You certainly have a talent for twisting statements. I would hardly recognize my initial post from your fanciful "paraphrasing". Are you sure you're not related to Ramalamadingdong?
Frankly, I'm not a supporter of farm price supports. My dad didn't take them when he was farming and I can't see much use in propping up "family farms" by giving payments to agribusiness and to non-farmers renting their quotas.
Regardless, there's substantial bi-partisan support for them among legislators from "farming" states. Contrary to your assertions, I did not say that Republican legislators are more supportive of price supports and other farm subsidies than are Democratic legislators. I DID say that those receiving the largesse are more likely to vote Republican than Democratic -- that's a simple matter of demographics. Take a look at the map of the latest election returns if you don't believe me.
Even accounting for sarcasm, how is it that you think this rebuts the statement that the farm states vote Republican regularly in Presidential elections?
Deal with reality, Al. They're trying to be nice about it. Farm price supports are bipartisan, and strongly supported by Republicans and Democrats alike. Farmers cheerfully accept government dole money and then bitch about the goddamn Democrats and their welfare queens and vote Republican for President.
I know it comes as no surprise to you that the President does not dole out farm supports. To say that farm states vote Republican because they voted for Bush is not quite on the mark.
Well, I suppose now arky, Judith, and a few other of the faithful will be over here to set me right. But I am already right.
For goodness sake, if you go back to my post I made it clear that it was bi-partisan. That is why I said a pox on both their houses.
This is what I had in mind when I posted the above two posts.
That doesn't mean the other way round doesn't happen; it's just that so long as I was making wild assumptions based on prejudice, I kept on going.
I also agree that the mother was unbelievably stupid and I really didn't buy her story.
Police investigating a report of a man's shooting death believe he leads a Baton Rouge Ku Klux Klan group and may have faked his demise to avoid arrest on a worthless check count, a police spokesman said.
This is my favorite part of the story:
The investigation revealed Ayers might be hiding out in a mobile home at 10240 Janice St., Lot 12, he said.
The trailer's resident, Forrest Broussard, 25, refused to allow a police search, Kelly said....
Note: I'm presuming this was on Dec 20, as it's the only date referenced at this point in the story.
After obtaining a warrant Dec. 26, police searched the mobile home Monday with assistance from the Sheriff's Office and the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
They found 19 firearms, a small amount of marijuana, 50 pounds of smokeless gunpowder and two explosive devices made from bundled fireworks, as well as KKK robes and paraphernalia, the spokesman said.
So they had, it seems, SIX DAYS warning, and this is the best they could do as far as hading things from the cops. What a bunch of ijits.
Great arguments for genetic purity, aren't they?
I'll post updates if we get any.
Yeah, that's what always gets me about those inbred-looking loons.
And the winning numbers in the Monday, New Year's Eve Massachusetts Lottery were ... 2-0-0-2 (January 1)
The numbers are drawn in a television studio at WBZ-TV in Boston. Executive news producer Jen Street said the drawing is conducted and supervised by lottery officials, and the station only provides studio space to the lottery.
The numbers may have been lucky, but they weren't profitable.
The payout for hitting all four numbers in order, which usually nets winners thousands of dollars, was just $280.
BEIJING (Reuters) - McDonald's outlets in the southern Chinese city of Guangzhou could face fines of $1,200-$12,000 after a Snoopy doll promotion which turned violent, the Xinhua news agency said on Thursday.
Dwindling supplies of the hot-selling cartoon canine doll triggered a run on the U.S. fast food giant's restaurants last May, resulting in scuffles among customers and a smashed window at one location.
An investigation by the city's industry and commerce administration found the chain's 34 Guangzhou outlets were not licensed to sell the toy, said Xinhua.
Try dealing with FOUR FEET, wimps!
They must have been pretty sure he was there.
NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- A rookie police officer was shot to death by his 3-year-old son, who had grabbed the man's service weapon from a kitchen table when the officer turned to talk to his pregnant wife.
I own a glock and it is a perfectly safe weapon. That doesn't mean I feel ok letting my 3-yr old nephew get a hold of it.
(Houston Chronicle)---Man showing gun safety accidentally kills himself.
A man accidentally killed himself Thursday while showing a woman how safe his gun was, police said.
Chris Zamiudo, 22, died at Ben Taub Hospital after the 8:25 a.m. shooting in the 5800 block of Leedale.
One of two females staying with him had received threats from a boyfriend, so the group decided to arm themselves, police said.
As Zamiudo was handling the gun, one of the women said she was uncomfortable with it. Zamiudo, trying to show her the weapon was safe, put it to his side and pulled the trigger, shooting himself in the abdomen, police said.
1) Treat every gun as if it were loaded.
2) Keep your finger off the trigger at all times until you have your sights aligned on the target and you are ready to shoot.
3) Don't point a firearm at anything you don't wish to shoot.
4) Be certain of your target and your line of fire.
5) Do not rely on a mechanical safety.
6) Physically ensure you know whether the gun is loaded by opening the action and physically looking.
7) Do not touch a firearm unless you are familiar with it's safe operation.
8) Do not leave a loaded weapon unattended or unsecured.
9) Store a gun seperately from its ammunition.
Rules 1
Rules 2
Rules 3
Rules 4
Rules for kids.
1. If you see a gun, never touch it.
2. Leave immediately.
3. Tell an adult.
Kids 1
21576. iiibbb - 1/5/2002 10:11:41 AM
(SF Chronicle)---The National Guard is investigating an incident at San Francisco International Airport in which a Guardsman accidentally shot himself while unholstering his pistol, officers said yesterday.
The incident occurred Friday and is the first soldier-involved shooting since the National Guard was activated to protect airports and bridges around the country after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
National Guard Spec. Louis E. Alvarez was finishing his shift at about 11 p. m. and was having trouble taking his M-9 pistol out of its holster when it accidentally fired.
"He was trying to unholster the weapon and in the process it fired," said Sgt. 1st Class Tom Jacobs.
Alvarez shot himself once in the buttocks and was treated and released Saturday from San Francisco General Hospital. He remains on medical leave.
Guns are never safe. They are never safe. You don't have to be an idiot to lose your life or that of your loved one to an accidental shooting. In fact, dismissing deaths like the TN officer's as being "death by idiocy" is one of the contributing factors to MORE accidental deaths by firearms.
Duh. No one thinks they're an idiot. Dissecting minutae after a case like that only provides opportunity for gun owners to say..."well, sheesh, I would never do that because I'm not an idiot...and so the next mistake, different in every way, is not avoided and another life is lost because people don't grasp that it doesn't take an IDIOT to fuck up gun safety. Guns are lethal, period. And if you approach them every.time. with anything other than profound fear and respect, you are at risk for an accidental discharge and possible tragedy.
Which is why a disproportionate amount of police officers and their loved ones are killed accidentally...guns are the tools of their trade, and being human, officers become - no matter how vigilant or non-idiotic - somewhat inured to their deadliness.
A couple of years ago, my husband and some others were cleaning their guns in the station. Detective A, chatting (as they all were) with the others, went through the routine of emptying his clip and shooting into the air...only he had, this ONE TIME, the one and only time in his career, neglected to clear the chamber.
Is he an idiot? Absolutely not - he's a good man, bright, talented, dedicated. He is, however, human, and subject to making an error with his work equipment.
Rationalizing that only "idiots" make gun safety mistakes contributes to gun deaths. EVERYONE that deals with guns on a regular basis makes errors. If EVERYONE who deals with guns on a regular basis REALIZED that they were as prone to error as "idiots" then maybe (probably not, but maybe) there would be fewer accidents.
Of course people make mistakes... for instance people make mistakes in cars all the time. People who follow the rules 99.9% of the time, and when they screw up sometimes they're lucky and nothing bad happens. Is it the cars' fault? Can you add enough protection to make cars 100% safe?
Like you say... don't trust anything automatic... a gun with a manual safety is no more safe than a Glock if you handle it incorrectly. That's why I don't trust the so-called 'smart' guns. They lull people into a false sense of security instead of relying on time-honored proceedural rules for handling a firearm.
Now... is the appropriate response to make more rules?... or just for me to live, learn, be thankful I was lucky and didn't get hurt, and probably not make the same mistake in the future?
Wendy's Founder Dave Thomas Dead CHICAGO (Reuters) - Wendy's International Inc. founder Dave Thomas has died, the fast-food chain said on Tuesday.
Further details about Thomas' death could not immediately be disclosed, a company representative told Reuters.
For years, Thomas has appeared on Wendy's television advertisements. Thomas was senior chairman of the board of directors.
Wendys makes great fastfood burgers. Their fries aren't quite as good as McDonalds or Burger Kings, though.
Michael Moore Executed
By MICHAEL GRACZYK, Associated Press Writer
HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) -
A man who stalked teen-age girls was put to death Wednesday night for killing one of the girls' mothers during a burglary in 1994.
Michael Moore, 38, appeared to choke back tears as he expressed love for his family and sought forgiveness for the slaying.
``I'm sorry. I can't take back what I have done,'' he said, looking at the victim's relatives, who watched through a window.
The nine-year Navy veteran confessed to killing Christa Bentley, 35, after he was apprehended the morning of the slaying in Copperas Cove, about 50 miles southwest of Waco.
Authorities said Moore had compiled a notebook including names and addresses of some 300 girls, including Bentley's daughter. He said he went through high school yearbooks and ``made a list of the most attractive girls and started following them around.''
Several of the girls had reported break-ins at their homes; others had received threatening letters. Authorities said a knifeand pistol used in the slaying were stolen during earlier burglaries.
A state appeals court halted Moore's execution in March, a day before it was scheduled. In November, the same court dismissed his final appeal.
Moore was the first of four Texas inmates scheduled to die this month. Seventeen were executed last year.
DALLAS (AP) --The Rev. W.A. Criswell, former president of the Southern Baptist Convention who clashed with liberal theologians over his belief the Bible is literally true, died Thursday. He was 92.
Criswell was pastor of the nation's largest Southern Baptist congregation, the First Baptist Church of Dallas, from 1944 to 1991, when he was given the title of senior pastor. He held the title of pastor emeritus since 1994.
The author of ``Why I Preach That The Bible Is Literally True'' and 53 other books, Criswell was both a target of denomination liberals and conservatives during his two terms as convention president from 1968-70.
LONDON (Reuters) - The adage that "money can't buy happiness" is quite wrong, with even quite small lottery wins or inheritances able to produce lasting contentment, new research published in Britain has shown.
Professors Andrew Oswald and Jonathan Gardner of Warwick University in central England tracked 9,000 families over the past decade to study whether there was a link between cash windfalls and contentment.
"We find a very strong link between cash falling on you and higher contentment and better mental health in the following year," said Oswald, who is a leading researcher in the area of happiness and economic performance.
"We have found effects from even tiny windfalls of 1,000 pounds ($1,400). And the more you get, the better you feel," he told BBC radio.
Don't know if anyone saw the Wendy's tribute to Dave, but it was sweet.
Oh, to follow up my story about the Klan idiot, he turned himself in to the cops. No story in the paper that I've seen; I just saw it on the local news.
Remember Dallas and the Cattlemen's Club? Dramatized but not distorted picture of how things work deep in the heart of Texas...
This from the NyT, a picture of cronyism with JP Morgan of all things....the vice chairman on the hotseat...
Houston corporate ruler....Ken Lay buddy...probably shot quail with Ken and Poppy and Lil Georgie down roun Beeville dag nab it!
As a vice chairman who oversees finance and risk management at the bank, Mr. Shapiro has had to repeatedly explain how the venerable New York institution came to have so much at stake. At last tally, the bank provided $2.6 billion to Enron, the giant energy trading company that fell into bankruptcy last month. The relationship went beyond traditional loans to a variety of complicated financings, including futures contracts involving offshore companies and debt backed by Enron's receivables.
Disclosures about the extent of that exposure have left J. P. Morgan's investors wondering if top management was fully aware of its Enron position before the company's demise. Even now, questions persist about whether there are more surprises to come for J. P. Morgan's investors.
Not only does Mr. Shapiro have to answer for the financial decisions, but he has to navigate a web of ties to Enron. A native of Houston, Enron's hometown, and a former chief executive of Texas Commerce, Mr. Shapiro has long moved in circles with Kenneth L. Lay, Enron's chief executive. Mr. Lay was once a member of the board of Texas Commerce, a bank that was acquired by a predecessor of J. P. Morgan in 1987.
Good riddance.
I just found his ads nauseating.
Boycott of Wendy's since 1986 now over
HELSINKI, Finland (AP) At 46 miles an hour, he didn't set any land-speed records. But Nokia executive Anssa Vanjoki could set the record for the costliest ever speeding ticket a $103,000 fine.
Vanjoki, a 45-year-old executive vice president of Nokia's mobile phones division, is fighting to get the fine reduced.
He was slapped with the ticket for speeding on a motorcycle in a 31-mph zone on an island near Helsinki last October, chief police inspector Olli Yliskoski said.
But in Finland, traffic fines are not just based on the seriousness of the infringement, they're also tied to the offender's income, and there's no limit. Worse for Vanjoki, his fine was based on his net income in 1999, when he reportedly made $5.2 million because of option sales.
The kids filing out past the cameras are laughing and mugging at the cameras. Guess they aren't too concerned; just happy to be out of class, it looks like.
This is, of course, complete bullshit.
As an adopted person, Dave Thomas was always willing to support any programs that supported adoption, including those of the Pat Robertson organization. And he no longer ran Wendy's when the TV show Ellen was on. And Wendy's never pulled any ads from the show.
Ironic? You're joking?
yeah, they did. do better research. Wendy's and JC Penny's are the ones i remember very clearly.
But his influence over that company didn't end until his death last week.
No, they didn't. Do any research. And, BTW, Proctor and Gamble are not in league with the devil.
So? Was he picking the shows the company's commercials ran on? You have no idea. But you had to post something , didn't you. Why was that?
I heard that on the radio yesterday. Socialism and classism at their most spiteful, if you ask me.
But what really sucks about that story is this:
Assuming the same scale is used, a person making just $50,000 a year would get about a $1,000 fine for the same infraction.
They're not? NOW you tell me!
I've got to do some Demonic Shopping for my Bathroom!
Because last I heard, and until anyone tells me differently, this is an open forum and I am entitled to post where I wish on it. If you don't like it, skip my posts.
April 18, 1997
DAVE THOMAS WON'T SERVE ELLEN AT "WEASLY" WENDY'S
In other fast-food news, Wendy's has announced that while it was never scheduled to advertise on the April 30 coming out episode of ABC's Ellen, it has pulled all sponsorship from the show. According to Wendy's spokesperson Denny Lynch, the move was prompted by the media attention to title character Ellen Morgan's coming out as a lesbian. In the April 16 USA Today, Lynch said, "The story content no longer fits our advertising guidelines, which are primarily to avoid controversial subjects."
you lose, but thanks for playing.
BOSTON (AP) -- For years, Don Featherstone's signature on the behind of the pink flamingo let everyone know it was a true replica of the original lawn ornament he created in 1957.
But last year, the company that makes the curiously popular ornaments dropped the signature, puzzling Featherstone and ruffling the feathers of flamingo fans.
Some, including the Museum of Bad Art and The Annals of Improbable Research, are calling for a boycott of the new, bare-butted bird.
``They're desecrating this oddly beloved object,'' said Marc Abrahams, editor of the Cambridge-based annals, which awarded an Ig Nobel -- a mock Nobel Prize -- to Featherstone in 1996.
Thomas Herzing, author of ``The Original Pink Plastic Flamingo: Splendor on the Grass,'' called the decision ``disrespectful'' and a ``sharp stick in the eye of high art.''
The company, Union Products Inc., has refused to explain the change -- even to Featherstone, its former president.
Featherstone, 65, a sculptor with a classical art background, modeled the ornament on a bird he saw in National Geographic. He created more than 650 other pieces, penguins and snowmen among them, but none took off like the pink bird. More than 20 million have been sold.
Featherstone's signature was added in 1987 to make it more like a piece of art and harder to copy.
Judith, I thought the fact that someone went and shot kids at Martin Luther King High School on Martin Luther King Day made it pretty clear that it was intentional. Hence no irony.
GRUNDY, Va. (Reuters) - A suspended student shot and killed three people at a law school in southwest Virginia's coal country on Wednesday -- including the school's dean -- and wounded three others, authorities said.
Peter Odighizuma, 43, suspended from the Appalachian School of Law earlier on Wednesday, was being held in jail in the town of Grundy in connection with the shooting, according to Virginia state police.
"He was suspended from school effective today for some unknown reason and came back," State police Lt. Jason Miles said by telephone. "He used a .380 semiautomatic handgun."
Wendy's has announced that while it was never scheduled to advertise on the April 30 coming out episode of ABC's Ellen
It is, of course, impossible to pull commercials one has never put.
I wonder if you read so poorly when your prejudices aren't engaged?
like it, skip my posts.
No deary, that isn't why you posted, it is why you are able to post. And if I don't like it, I will skip it, or comment on its stupidity and prejudice, as I see fit.
The article says it may have been over a girl.
If everyone here took the time to comment on your posts' stupidity and prejudice, nothing else would ever be discussed.
Just because all people don't disagree with you doesn't mean they agree with you or that you have converted them.
Now I am going back to what I've been doing, ignoring you.
Ducks cleared this one up nicely, though, I must say.
Ha! That's funny.
It is, of course, impossible to pull commercials one has never put.
because i'm a nice guy, i'll go over it again. try and follow this; post any questions you have after reading this entire post.
1. Wendy's had ads on Ellen's show prior to her coming out.
2. when it was announced that she was coming out, Wendy's NO LONGER allowed ANY ads to be shown during Ellen's time slot EVER.
thus, they pulled ads in any understanding of the term. so, yes, i Please to be learning to be reading the English for ... postings just fine as opposed to, say, you.
I wonder if you read so poorly when your prejudices aren't engaged?
ask yourself that question next time.
LAUDERHILL, Fla. (Reuters) - A plaque intended to honor black actor James Earl Jones at a Florida celebration of the life of Martin Luther King instead paid tribute to James Earl Ray, the man who killed the black civil rights leader, officials said on Wednesday.
The embarrassing mix-up was caused by an error by the plaque's designer, the owner of the company that ordered the plaque said. It was being corrected in time for Jones' visit to the Fort Lauderdale suburb on Saturday.
Over a background featuring stamps of famous black Americans, including King, the erroneous plaque read, ``Thank you James Earl Ray for keeping the dream alive.''
Except, of course, the standard English understanding of the term. In your usage they have pulled their advertizing from every series they have ever run an ad on, if they aren't running ads there now. This would be a long list.
The fact is, they didn't cancel a single ad. And cancelling ads is what "pulling" means in English.
whatever you say.
up is down, black is white, etc etc
The Norwegian Finance Minister, Per-Kristian Foss, has 'married' his long-time male companion.
He is believed to be the world's first high-ranking minister to formalise a gay relationship
Depends on what is meant by 'high-ranking', I think. The former Danish minister of health was also married (or 'married') while he was in office, which was back in the mid-90s.
I'm glad you are able to get past your prejudices.
whatever you say.
Oh, no, you go to far. Just stick to the standard meaning of words, and you'll be fine. Oh, and don't fall for every bit of propoganda you read.
up is down, black is white, etc etc
No, again, you need to stick to what the words actually mean. Up is up, down is down, black is black, white is white. Using the wrong meanings for words is how you went astray last time.
but, as your fellow Burger King employees say, 'Have it your way'
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (Reuters) - Animal rights groups won a victory when the Florida Supreme Court (news - web sites) cleared the way for a statewide vote on whether pregnant pigs can be kept in close confinement.
By a unanimous vote, the state's highest court ruled Thursday that a proposed constitutional amendment protecting sows from immobility is succinct and accurately portrayed, two criteria necessary to put the issue before voters in a referendum.
At the center of controversy are gestational crates in which the animals are housed for much of their lives. Farmers say the crates allow them to keep more pigs in smaller areas, increase production and reduce the cost of labor and feed.
Research cited by opponents of the practice say the crates prevent pigs from turning around, causing psychological and physical problems ranging from chronic stress to urinary infections.
WALDSHUT, Germany (Reuters) - Europe's first brothel catering for women has gone bankrupt because customers refused to pay up, German police said Friday.
Your solicitude is appreciated in the same manner as it is given, but as it is directed to regret that I can not misiterpret English merely to support you prejudices, I am afraid it is misplaced. We will not be able to redefine the English language merely to justify your hate-filled postings.
but, as your fellow Burger King employees say, 'Have it your way'
Again, you are in error. I do not now, nor have I ever, worked at Burger King. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
The Federal Trade Commission today proposed new rules to reduce the annoyance of unwanted telephone solicitations and protect consumers
from unauthorized charges on their credit-card bills.
Very good, but it wiil take a long time and there will be too many loopholes.
For $4.80 you can get on two lists: one protects against general pests and the other is specifically for electricity marketers (deregulation, you know).
On Saturday, police went to the southwest Miami-Dade apartment of Christie Prody, who once dated Simpson, after a neighbor called to report a foul odor coming from inside.
The neighbor, Ruth Einhorn, told police she had not seen Prody in a month, and said Prody's orange-and-white cat might be inside. Police then asked county firefighters to break open the door.
"There was an absolutely dreadful odor," Einhorn said.
Once inside, police found a dead cat in a doorway. Prody's apartment appeared ransacked and clothing was scattered on the floor, along with semi-packed luggage, according to a police report.
There was also some cryptic remark about the judge ruling that they cannot exclude some evidence from these people's past about sexual abuse of animals. This whole thing is totally creepy.
But you are right, Thoughtful...those two looked like scum from the first newsclip.
Here is Brit Hume fuming about the latest liberal outrage from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA). Those lefty loonies are actually putting orange hunters' vests on wild deer! Hrrumpph!
But it turns out Mr. "Fair and Balanced" got taken, as reported in the
Columbus Dispatch. In fact, it's not even hunting season.
Another example of a conservative's gullible willingness to uncritically accept as true any allegation that fits his warped worldview.
And thanks to Free Republic (!), where I read about Hume's gaffe.
As for the rest of the story, it is well within the realm of believability that PETA would go around outfitting deer in blaze orange. I mean, two years ago, not far from here they went into the woods on opening day of hunting season throwing firecrackers around to scare the deer.
...And it worked! They scared them right into all the good hunting spots, where the hunters had a blast - biggest opening day ever for the area.
Then, of course, there's the PETA proclamation of a couple of months ago that their "research" (which no one else has ever seen) has shown that dogs and cats do much better on a vegetarian diet than on their "traditional" diets.
Brit would be gratified by your steadfast defense.
Regardless, though - outfitting deer in blaze orange is a bit lower on the Bizarro Scale than claiming vegetarian diets are more healthy than meat for carnivores.
paintball.
OSLO (Reuters) - An American woman had no need to fasten her seatbelt on a flight from Scandinavia to the United States after a high-pressure vacuum flush sealed her to the toilet seat of the transatlantic airliner.
The woman filed a complaint with Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS) after her ordeal on a Boeing 767 flight last year. She got sucked in after pushing the flush button while seated, activating a system to clean the toilet by vacuum, the airline said Monday.
"She could not get up by herself and had to sit on the toilet until the flight had landed so that ground technicians could help her get loose," a SAS spokeswoman told Reuters. "She was stuck there for quite a long time."
TOKYO (Reuters) - A Japanese civil servant was arrested Thursday for repeatedly groping a woman on a crowded commuter train over the course of nearly two years, police said.
The 45-year-old civil servant of western Osaka prefecture allegedly started molesting the woman, now 20, on jam-packed morning trains in April 2000. "She must have been embarrassed about it," an official investigating the case said. "She was even reluctant to file a complaint with the police."
Groping on trains is not uncommon in Japan and authorities have launched a number of high-profile campaigns in recent years to try to stamp it out.
TORONTO (Reuters) - A 56-year-old Canadian man, accused of planting hugs and kisses on unsuspecting pedestrians, will likely face a slew of sexual assault charges, police say.
Police said the man had scuttled about the city over the past year striking up conversations with people on the street. The man, whom police described as well-dressed, allegedly directed his unwanted affection toward women and young boys.
He allegedly complimented people, offered a handshake and would then pull them in and plop a kiss on their lips while enfolding them in a bear hug.
"We see all kinds but this type of behavior is very strange," Detective Sergeant Dave Perry said Thursday. "I don't know why he was doing this."
The law finally caught up with the man, dubbed the "crazy kisser" by the media, after he hugged a woman who called the police before he left the area.
I would like a piece of the teeshirt concession.
Salon magazine? It could happen.
yeah right - i'll just start holding my breath now....
Salon Media Group, the San Francisco online publication known for provocative and sometimes ground-breaking stories, would consider launching a print magazine if it had the right partner, chief executive Michael O'Donnell said in a conference call yesterday.
"We've had a lot of interest from users and advertisers," O'Donnell said. "While we wouldn't do it by ourselves, we might use a larger partner's resources to launch and distribute it" and sell ads.
It's probably not a good bet that such a magazine will hit newsstands any time soon, however. The latest big-budget general interest magazine to launch, Tina Brown's Talk, folded this month, just two years after its inception.
haven't heard that from the leftist facist media have ya?
hmm?
have ya? OSLO (Reuters) - A spokeswoman for Scandinavian Airline System (SAS) said a report of a woman being stuck on an airplane toilet was false.
much less fun, but oh well
The original report said a woman had filed a complaint with SAS after her ordeal on a Boeing 767 flight last year. The woman supposedly got sucked in after pushing the flush button while seated, activating a system to clean the toilet by vacuum.
The SAS spokeswoman said internal checks had since shown that the company's original information was false.
``We regret that we presented the story as true,'' she said.
A key federal official assigned to referee land-use disputes in the California desert has been removed from his post amid protests from environmentalists that the Bush administration is bowing to pressure from miners, ranchers and off-road vehicle enthusiasts.
Tim Salt, a 27-year veteran of the Bureau of Land Management, had been a lightning rod for criticism from all factions over federal policy in the 11-million-acre desert.
...
"There is a definite pattern by this administration to reassign administrators who have an environmental ethic," said Karen Schambach, California coordinator for Public Employees for Environment Responsibility. "It's very distressing."
...
Salt's career arc shows that it is possible to go from being lionized in one administration to being reassigned in the next.
During the Clinton administration, Salt received the Department of the Interior's meritorious service award from Secretary Bruce Babbitt for his work in preserving the California desert. Salt was associate district manager for two years before being named manager in 1999.
Hi! Nice to talk to you again.
Not much new to report.
I spent a lot of time archery hunting in the Fall, but I didn't get a deer. Saw lots of bucks and had fun anyway.
My son just turned 16 and we are teaching him to drive. I am a white knuckle rider with anyone, let alone a student driver ... I must be in control, or else.
I'm taking flying lessons. I puked after the first lesson due to motion sickness -- not a good sign.
What's new with you ?
I'm not much on hunting but bowhunting seems the most fair way...I hope the deer have a better chance that way, anyhow. ;-) Too much bedtime
Bambi when I was a child, I guess.
You be careful while taking those flying lessons...and if you continue to get an upset stomach, that might be a sign.
Wow. The Moteio sounds like fun.
Flying is enjoyable, but rather overwhelming to begin with because of all the instruments and controls. Of course, if I can't keep my cookies down, that will be the end of it. I asked my instructor what I could do about it and he handed me a barf bag. He did say that most people who have this problem get over it fairly quickly.
BTW, flying lessons are very expensive. The guy charged me $95 for my first hour (it actually lasted longer than an hour). My dad has his private pilot's license, and he said it was probably paying the $95 that gave me a belly ache. He thinks I'm a tightwad.
You would do that for me? Thanks. Perhaps I will take you up on that generous offer.
Or the whole plane will spill its guts.
Yea, I bet you and hubby spent the week in your cabin undulating with the movement of the waves.
Small town advantages--people tell me how Mose does when they encounter her on the highway.
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - Mobile phone maker Sony Ericsson does not have a luxury handset unit to match that of its rival Nokia, but fans can still get a diamond encrusted Ericsson phone made from 18 carat gold with their name engraved on it.
COLLEGE STATION, Texas (AP) -- Texas A&M University's nearly century-old bonfire tradition -- on hold since a deadly collapse in 1999 -- will not be resurrected this fall, the school's president said Monday.
Who the hell keeps 221 CDs in their car?, is what I wanna know.
New DNA tests prove a man jailed for raping two women more than 15 years ago is innocent, say a group of attorneys who work to free prisoners based on genetic testing.
Prosecutor Bruce Castor confirmed Tuesday the new tests show samples from a 1986 rape kit do not match those taken from the inmate, Bruce Godschalk.
But Castor said he would not release Godschalk immediately, maintaining the samples may not be from the rapist and that he cannot discount Godschalk's taped confession.
...
Castor and the Innocence Project had sperm samples from the rape kits and a carpet sample from one woman's home tested by two separate companies.
The company hired by the defense found that the DNA in sperm taken from each crime scene was from the same man, but did not match Godschalk.
...
The prosecutor also said one of the victims identified Godschalk as her attacker. Castor said he needs time to ``try to reconcile what appears to be conflicting pieces of evidence.''
Peter Neufeld, co-founder of the Innocence Project, insists both labs arrived at the same conclusion, and that the term ``consistent'' is often used in DNA testing. The defense asserts the confession was coerced, the eyewitness was mistaken and a jailhouse informant lied.
Apparently, another case of mistaken eyewitness identification.
Eyewitness identification of a stranger is worse than useless, because it has a presumption of validity to jurors.
An obese girl is yanked from her parents in Arizona. A New York couple loses custody of their son because they refuse to drug him with Ritalin. A Colorado boy is stripped and examined by school officials because he said he'd been spanked one morning. A Christian mother loses her daughter for teaching forgiveness.
Prudent precaution on the part of America's child protective services agencies or proof positive of a system run amok?
Cases like these are fueling what is becoming a growing backlash against state child protective services. It's a movement swelling as more and more examples surface of parents being snared in a system that critics say uses murky definitions of child abuse to dictate private family values, child-rearing methods, lifestyle choices, and even religious practices.
...
Activists lay part of the blame for what critics call a "frantic kidnapping frenzy" on the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, legislation that rewards states with cash "bonuses" of $4,000-$6,000 per kid and other windfalls for each child permanently adopted out of foster care.
...
Activists say home schooling, devout religious practices, persistent diaper rash, scratches from a new pet puppy, milk intolerance, cystic fibrosis, a broken home heating system, and messy housekeeping have all been documented not just as abuse or neglect, but as the reason for taking a child into state custody.
Spanking, for example, is frequently the basis for abuse complaints filed by caseworkers, teachers and doctors, even though spanking is not defined as abuse and some states have gone so far as to specifically legislate the right of parents to spank their children.
BUENOS AIRES , Argentina (Reuters) - A passenger tried to force his way into the locked cockpit of a United Airlines flight halfway from Miami to Argentina on Thursday, but pilots hit him with an ax and subdued him, the airline said.
The man was arrested when the Boeing 777 landed safely in Buenos Aires . United Airlines spokesman Joe Hopkins confirmed in Chicago that the man was a Uruguayan but did not have details on his name or age.
VOLKETSWIL, Switzerland (AP) - Fire struck a warehouse in this Swiss town, destroying 4 million chocolate Easter bunnies worth nearly $12 million, Switzerland's biggest food retailer said Thursday.
The bunnies were due to be distributed to stores across eastern Switzerland next week, Migros said. They represented 40 percent of the company's entire production of Easter bunnies for this year.
The fire, which broke out Wednesday evening, destroyed several floors of the distribution center. About 230 firefighters took more than four hours to bring the blaze under control. The cause of the fire was not immediately known.
Dozens of female travelers have filed complaints with the Federal Aviation Administration and state officials, claiming that male airport security screeners groped them under the guise of random body searches.
The complaints include 18 filed with the FAA by women who claimed they were singled out for pat-down searches when they were traveling alone, then groped or fondled by male agents, according to spokesman Jerry Snyder.
At least 35 women have contacted Arizona Attorney General Janet Napolitano about being improperly touched during pat-down searches, spokeswoman Pati Urias said, although none has filed a criminal complaint.
...
The airline said it interviewed three male gate staff agents who may have witnessed the Jan. 21 search.
"No one could recall this particular passenger, but all denied ever singling out women for search; continuing to search any male or female passenger who refused a search; or touching women inappropriately during the search process," America West general counsel Linda Mitchell wrote in a letter Thursday.
The three men were nevertheless "counseled on the use of tact and professionalism," and the same message was reiterated to all gate agents, Mitchell wrote.
There! The gate staff had a good talking to. Problem solved.
PORT COQUITLAM, British Columbia (AP) -- An owner of a Vancouver-area pig farm was charged with firearms violations as police continued to search the site for evidence in the disappearances of 50 women.
Robert William Pickton, 52, one of the farm's owners, had been accused in court documents of stabbing a woman repeatedly with a kitchen knife in 1997, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer reported Friday.
The charges were later dropped, apparently because the woman would not testify against him, the paper said.
The woman's mother told The (Vancouver) Province that her daughter was a drug addict who was handcuffed and attacked in Pickton's home but escaped. She said her daughter was ``probably close to death'' for two weeks. The woman said she hadn't been able to find her daughter since then.
LONDON, Feb. 9 Britains Princess Margaret, the high-spirited and unconventional sister of Queen Elizabeth II, died Saturday morning after suffering a stroke, Buckingham Palace said. She was 71.
Scientists have developed an artificial womb that allows embryos to grow outside the body
Liu's work involves removing cells from the endometrium, the lining of the womb. 'We have learnt how to grow these cells in the laboratory using hormones and growth factors,' she said.
After this Liu and her colleagues grew layers of these cells on scaffolds of biodegradable material which had been modelled into shapes mirroring the interior of the uterus. The cells grew into tissue and the scaffold dissolved. Then nutrients and hormones such as oestrogen were added to the tissue.
'Finally, we took embryos left over from IVF programmes and put these into our laboratory engineered tissue. The embryos attached themselves to the walls of our prototype wombs and began to settle there.'
Now, here's the kicker:
There are going to be real problems,' said organiser Dr Scott Gelfand, of Oklahoma State University. 'Some feminists even say artificial wombs mean men could eliminate women from the planet and still perpetuate our species. That's a bit alarmist. Nevertheless, this subject clearly raises strong feelings.'
Oh yea - there's a genuine concern - Women will become obsolete, because men want to be able to produce children with none of the benefits of the reproductive act.
I mean, fear of having to take care of the little monsters all by ourselves alone should be enough to put that concern to rest.
CANBERRA (Reuters) -Forget confetti or rice -- guests at chic Australian weddings are casting live butterflies at the newlyweds.
The demand for butterflies at Australian weddings has soared in the two years since the country's first commercial butterfly breeding business was set up in Western Australia by Jill Murray, who noted a growing trend in the United States .
Murray, who used to run a bridal shop before establishing Butterfly Release, said she was seeing huge demand for boxes of Australian native orange and black monarch butterflies which have an 3.2-inch wing span.
"Demand has been amazing because so many churches and parks now do not allow confetti, rice or rose petals," Murray told Reuters.
"Releasing a box of butterflies can be a magical moment and every bride likes a little magic."
Murray breeds the butterflies on a farm at Denmark, 217 miles south of Perth, and delivers them at a cost of $36.50 for six.
...
toycheck
NEW YORK (AP) -- Paramedics mistakenly declared a 77-year-old woman dead after finding her unconscious on her bathroom floor, a blunder that went undiscovered for hours until she woke up while being put into a body bag.
The woman, Frances Foster of Brooklyn, had suffered a stroke and was hospitalized Saturday in critical condition.
``I called everyone and had to tell them my mother was dead, then only to call back and say she's alive,'' said daughter Kim Foster Littlejohn. ``She could have been at the hospital getting taken care of. What a costly mistake.''
She said a medical examiner's official didn't discover Foster was alive until she was being put into the bag. ``He told me ... she suddenly moved and opened her eyes and he jumped back, startled,'' she said.
Foster died early Monday, a hospital spokeswoman said.
Excerpt:
In a memo to his staff Monday, Kinsley said he felt "a need for change, and I think Slate could use a change as well."
No shit, Sherlock. Kinsley's sickening liberal bias permeated that magazine to the core. I don't know if I can give it another chance after two years of washing my hands to it.
I figure if it's OK for Julianne Malveaux to say that about a Supreme Court nominee, I can say it about some queer.
Chewing food 50 times is indeed a compulsion. Refusing to eat food is just like refusing to step on cracks, refusing to put on your shoes until you've had breakfast, which must always be three eggs, over easy, and bacon.
Nothing about it seems like an eating disorder. It's like saying that compulsively pulling out your hair is a form of baldness.
It isn't strictly OCD.
The distinction between the two that springs to mind is the relatively fixed and focused nature of orthorexia and other eating disorders, and the tendency towards generalization in OCD. Left untreated, OCD is more likely to expand into more and more areas of life, with more ritualistic behavior or more elaborate rituals to achieve the desired calming effect.
The behaviors seem similar and are possibily linked in etiology, but that's still a matter of much debate and research. OCD seems to be related to other psychopathology as well, and that is the topic of much study.
Uh, yeah. Lots of behavior disorders demonstrate both obsession and compulsion--addiction and pedophilia come to mind. So what?
Simple food allergies can lead some people to orthorexia as they cut out food group after food group in an effort to stay healthy, while self-esteem and ``dietary identity'' can also play a role.
No, imaginary food allergies can lead people to eating disorders. As well as "self-esteem and 'dietary identity'", if that's how we're describing the narcissism that rewards far too many middle class women with nothing better to do these days.
But in any event, the other eating disorders are, in fact, eating disorders. As described, orthorexia is classic OCD.
OCD doesn't always expand to other behaviors. It is quite common for sufferers to stay fixed in a few areas that relieve their anxiety.
I agree that OCD may in fact be the root cause of a number of psychopathologies--many sexually deviant behavior is considered to be rooted in it, and certainly most eating disorders are both obsessive and compulsive. But in the other cases the behavior is separate and distinct from the obsession. There is nothing that distinguishes orthorexia from following wood grains forever, straightening out the carpet over and over, pulling out hair, and so on.
In fact, chewing food fifty times is considered classic OCD--if the person were chewing meat and potatoes along with the vegetables.
Given that we're all agreed on the irrationality of chewing food 50 times, I figure that "fear" is the word receiving emphasis? But compulsion is not accompanied by an irrational fear.
The emotional aspect of OCD is linked far more to the obsession than the compulsion. There are lots of people who are obsessive without having any compulsions. But generally, obsession is caused by anxiety (as well as suspected physiological components), rather than fear.
There is some research on brain chemistry that seems to support the idea that many of these pathologies are rooted in similar elemental chemical imbalances. There have been cases of people with multiple pathologies seing cocomittant improvements in symptoms that were not the focus of treatment. Some atypical antidepressants seemed to be helpful to patients who were both depressed and OCD in both mood and ritualistic behavior, when only the mood effects were anticipated by the treating physicians.
that orthorexia is most likely a variant or spot in an array of how OCD expresses itself in human behavior.
Yes, that's a better way of putting it. As I said, no one would consider a person who religiously chewed their food 50 times to have OCD, if they were eating all foods. For that matter, why is just eating one kind of food not a valid OCD behavior as well? There are OCD people who only wear one color, one type of shoes, etc.
I just think the eating disorder specialists felt neglected and invented this. (g)
Anorexics, Bulemics, compulsive overeaters, yo-yo dieters and orthorexics are all obsessed with food and to the extent that they are unable to control their behavior they are compulsive.
This may also explain why OCD seems to express itself in such varied behaviors, but all sharing common themes:
Several family and twin studies are suggestive of a high heritability of anorexia and bulimia,11,12 and researchers are searching for genes that confer susceptibility to these disorders. 13 Scientists suspect that multiple genes may interact with environmental and other factors to increase the risk of developing these illnesses. Identification of susceptibility genes will permit the development of improved treatments for eating disorders.
Other studies are investigating the neurobiology of emotional and social behavior relevant to eating disorders and the neuroscience of feeding behavior.
Scientists have learned that both appetite and energy expenditure are regulated by a highly complex network of nerve cells and molecular messengers called neuropeptides. 14,15 These and future discoveries will provide potential targets for the development of new pharmacologic treatments for eating disorders.
Further insight is likely to come from studying the role of gonadal steroids. 16,17 Their relevance to eating disorders is suggested by the clear gender effect in the risk for these disorders, their emergence at puberty or soon after, and the increased risk for eating disorders among girls with early onset of menstruation.
from NIMH, general public information regarding mental disorders- eating disorders research.
Link eating disorders,
OTOH most mental disorders are characterized by otherwise ordinary behaviors, that because of their frequency/setting/intensity, are labled as pathological.
It appears that the psychiatric field anticipated your thoughts and specifically excluded such things as religion and political bias from their diagnostic criteria for psychosis.
From the Internet Mental Health site:
Diagnostic Criteria
Presence of one (or more) of the following symptoms:
- delusions
- hallucinations
-disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
- grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
Note: Do not include a symptom if it is a culturally sanctioned response pattern.
But see, that's not how I view orthorexia at all. It really comes across as a compulsion.
I do think that fixed beliefs as described are a capability (ie, yes, a disorder), as opposed to just rilly rilly strong beliefs. I just don't see orthorexia as the same thing. Nor do I see bulimia or anorexia as similar to either.
Christin, the difference between orthorexia and, say, bulimia is that a bulimic can postpone or delay their behavior. It isn't a compulsion. Ditto anorexia. The person knows that they must keep their behavior private, and will delay it or hide if necessary. Bulimia and anorexia are also specifically about eating, body image, and so on. They also aren't really about anxiety. So I don't see any reason to consider all eating disorders as OCD.
Whereas I suspect you could probably fool an orthorexia into changing compulsions if you worked at it hard enough--because the anxiety will be relieved by other compulsions, if you can fool the person into thinking the results will be the same. I don't want to make it sound easy or the OCD person stupid. But the compulsion is an immediate need and has a specific purpose.
I grant you I am only going on the definition posted here, so it may be that further information would highlight other differences. But the need to chew food exactly 50 times and eat only vegetables is definitely OCD. So unless there is something else that links these two as subordinate behaviors to an overarching dysfunction, I'm skeptical.
So if someone washes their hands 90 times a day but treats it like homosexuality on Seinfeld, they're just fine.
I'm not convinced that delay makes much difference in defining compulsion if the end result is that the individual feels s/he must accomplish a particular task---the bulimic must eliminate ingested calories eventually. The anorexic will purge ingested calories if they can't be avoided and someone suffering from orthorexia will either not eat or will later purge in order to avoid "bad foods". All of these behaviors fall under the diagnostic description listed for compulsion.
The person knows that they must keep their behavior private, and will delay it or hide if necessary.
I don't know that this is an integral part of either of these disorders particularly since many bulimics can purge calories in a highly promoted and culturally accepted method: exercise. What is hidden is the urge for and consumption of mass quantities of food. This might be a significant difference between A&B and O since O isn't hiding a desire for "bad food".
Bulimia and anorexia are also specifically about eating, body image, and so on.
Orthorexia is specifically about eating and body image in the form of body performance and percieved increased health. There's more focus on the "morality" of eating for orthorexics, but self-esteem and personal identity as defined by food is a factor in all three of these disorders.
The only real difference I see between Orthorexia and A&B is that Orthorexia is not as quick to destroy body function and because of a cultural focus on eating healthy Orthorexics can actually form societies for the promotion of their food beliefs.
Please insert "i"
Fuitarian.
If you can delay, then it isn't compulsion. It is the irresistibility that defines compulsion. You could sit on an OCD sufferer to get them to stop washing their hands, but that's what it would take. That or medication.
I didn't say that the need to keep it private was an essential element of bulimia or anorexia. All I'm pointing out is that they have control over when they do it. Their problem is more systemic in nature. The OCD sufferer is more akin to a glitch in the wetware.
All of these behaviors fall under the diagnostic description listed for compulsion.
What diagnostic description for "compulsion"? If you mean OCD then no, it doesn't.
Now, in the case of the orthorexic,you've given me new data points, since I didn't know they were making a religious deal out of it.
Either they must chew their food 50 times or they just do it because that's what the religion says. If the first, then OCD. If the second, then it has nothing to do with anything. Ditto the eating of vegetables.
So either these are people with anorexia or bulimia, who only chew their food 50 times because that's what God or whoever tells them but they can stop it at any time. Or these are OCD people who fixate on chewing and vegetables as anxiety relief and can't do anything else.
The religious trappings are irrelevant, unless we want to move to Elliot's suggestion that people who are capable of weird beliefs have a form of disorder.
However, I'd go with anorexia or bulimia. There is a lot of effort by those people to mask their diseases; yahoo and other hosting facilities are pulling the plug on their chat threads and websites.
The guy in the article seems very much mild OCD. He's just creating a new disease for marketing purposes. I bet if you asked about you'd find all sorts of other odd behaviors he does.
I was reading this from the OCD definition at the website I linked above.
Compulsions as defined by (1) and (2):
1. repetitive behaviors (e.g., hand washing, ordering, checking) or mental acts (e.g., praying, counting, repeating words silently) that the person feels driven to perform in response to an obsession, or according to rules that must be applied rigidly
2. the behaviors or mental acts are aimed at preventing or reducing distress or preventing some dreaded event or situation; however, these behaviors or mental acts either are not connected in a realistic way with what they are designed to neutralize or prevent or are clearly excessive
When I first read this it seemed pretty obvious to me that the need to purge calories to the detriment of one's health was a compulsive behavior, but upon closer reading I see that the focus seems to be on the repetitive nature and the ritualistic/talismanic quality of such behaviors rather than on the irresistibility of them.
I didn't say that the need to keep it private was an essential element of bulimia or anorexia. All I'm pointing out is that they have control over when they do it. Their problem is more systemic in nature. The OCD sufferer is more akin to a glitch in the wetware.
In which case Orthorexia is still in the running because its sufferers have as little or as much control over their behavior as Anorexics and Bulimics.
...these are people with anorexia or bulimia, who only chew their food 50 times because that's what God or whoever tells them but they can stop it at any time.
This gets my vote. The precise preparation of foods is ordained by the diet guru or by personal research rather than by a need to quell anxiety. It's not but ordained behavior that serves a precise purpose---chewing 50 times effects the maximum dietary benefit of the food being eaten.
The religious angle is stated in the article.
Well, irresistibility means you can't wait.
Orthorexia is still in the running because its sufferers have as little or as much control over their behavior as Anorexics and Bulimics.
It depends on whether or not they absolutely must chew the food fifty times, which seemed to be the case for the one guy--or are just doing it because it's in their religion.
However, if you absolutely must chew it 50 times, then it is quite different. The anorexic and bulimic do have control over their behavior. This is quite different from saying that they aren't sick, or that they don't feel the need to vomit or whatever.
The guy in the article seems to have a mild case of OCD. It sounds like he's being clever and writing a book that encompasses a whole bunch of odd little habits that anorexics and bulimics do to cover their problems, as well as the silly things that food faddists do. He is then diagnosing the habits as the disorder. Sells a lot of books.
The article didn't say how he'd come to the conclusion that food must be chewed 50 times, but looking at the other examples there are whole groups of people who follow bizarre Food Rules. One person might have OCD, but a whole bunch of people following the same dictated dietary plan is a cult. (yes, I know they're not literally a cult, but it was the only word I could think of.)
There has long been worry about these faddish supposedly healthy diets. I think that most of the malnutrition is caused because these diets are based on the the ethics of the food eaten rather than the true nutritional properties.
Perhaps I'm bringing too much personal bias into this because I went to college in the Davis area and saw a lot of this weirdness first-hand. I lived less than a block from the Natural Foods Co-Op in Sacramento and you never saw so many people obsessed with hippy trivia.
In some cases (such as the ones you describe) yes. We're in agreement. Now, maybe people who are prone to joining cults have some sort of mental disorder, but it would be the third one mentioned (ie, not OCD, not anorexia/bulimia).
I do think these people are goofy, too. But they're goofy in the Hare Krishna way.
WHITE PLAINS, New York (AP) -- A British company claimed in federal court Monday that it owns the patent on hyperlinks -- the single-click conveniences that take a Web surfer from one Internet page to another -- and should get paid for their daily use by millions of people.
Here is the url...but not as a hyperlink:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/02/11/hyperlink.claim.ap/index.html
It's sort of interesting...the patent was filed before the web existed...the judge seems to think this is an iffy case, as she holds court and uses her laptop.
RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- The state Senate passed legislation Tuesday requiring public schools to post signs reading, ``In God We Trust.''
The bill's sponsor, Republican Sen. Nick Rerras, said the national motto offers a much-needed expression of hope in an era of terrorism and weakening moral values.
You should have heard our director talking about Gilmore at the last staff meeting, especially on the topic of the car tax and the bond rating. 'Publicly flogged and forced to live out his days in ignominy' pretty much sums it up.
Jefferson would be much more upset to know how many bureaucrats are living off of the good people of the Old Dominion, than about an innocuous bit of moral boosting.
Nobody's religious liberty is disturbed by posting of the national motto. On the other hand, the huge portion of state taxes that go to pay the salaries of "civil servants" is definitely a burden that would have shocked Jefferson.
I'm very interested in your analysis of the state budget.
Honest.
Rama declaims, not explains. It is enough that the Rama Has Spoken.
I just sort of wondered how 5.1% of the budget allocated to general government could be deemed 'huge'.
Matter of fact, I read not too long ago in the Post about a study done of senior management attitudes towards the spending of government dollars...turns out that staff was actually more fiscally conservative than the legislators. I wish to God I had bookmarked it.
The only government positions that I know of that come close to the wages/salary of an equivalent person in the private sector would be elected ones, and that is debatable based on how you would define an equivalent position.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Washington police are building what will be the nation's biggest network of surveillance cameras to monitor shopping areas, streets, monuments and other public places in the U.S. capital, a move that worries civil liberties groups, The Wall Street Journal said on Wednesday.
The system would eventually include hundreds of cameras, linking existing devices in Metro mass transit stations, public schools and traffic intersections to new digital cameras mounted to watch over neighborhoods and shopping districts, the Journal said.
"In the context of Sept. 11, we have no choice but to accept greater use of this technology," Stephen Gaffigan, the head of the police department project, told the Journal.
He said city officials had studied the British surveillance system, which has more than 2 million cameras throughout the country, and were "intrigued by that model."
excellent point. One of our MB analysts jumped to the private sector last year and doubled - doubled - her salary.
I contacted my county extension agent once about some gardening issues and was bowled over at how helpful they were, how much stuff they were offering that I never knew about and the wealth of information just waiting for the asking.
I've had similar experiences working with clients who are intimidated by getting some government notice about their property regarding zoning or the like. Once you make contact with the agency and can do it in a professional manner, solutions and compromises are really not that hard to work out. They are from the government, and they really do want to help you.
I think people reassessed their opinions of firefighters and police after 9-11, but no one seems to have paid attention to the tons of people who worked behind them to make sure they had what they needed, kept things as organized as possible, and helped clean up the financial, enviromental, public service, and social mess left behind. You know, those damn bureaucrats from FEMA, OSHA, NIMH, EPA, and the like.
That's not so; they have the choice, they just choose to take this option. Is crime in England non-existant or even down? Do they have no terrorist attacks there because the system is in place? I don't think so....
This is very, very true in my experience. Often politicians will skewer staff publicly to make themselves look good.
Even ethical police develop a real enthusiasm for surveilence equipment and will expand its use to all situations not specifically forbidden. Those who are willing to break the rules are a problem in themselves, and aren't really my major concern.
As of now, the police can track you with your cell phone(at least in some federal circuits), place "electronic tracers" on your car, use boom microphones and the like to overhear your conversations in public settings etc., without a warrant and all without court oversight.
What's to prevent the camera on a pole to be trained in your window? Or the microphone from being aimed at your window, filtered and amplified to reveal your private conversations? Right now, the only real protection is the scruples of the officers involved. That could be a sterling guarantee or a worthless hope, depending on the agency involved.
Being a die hard civil libertarian, you would think that I would oppose public surveilence cameras and the like. However, so long as the observations are limited to truly public places, I am not concerned. The fly in the ointment is ensuring that they are limited to public places.
well, being a semi-civil libertarian, i find government cameras on private property repugnant - 'public place' or no. if they paid the 'public place' for the rights to do it and paid a form of rent after and only after said owners agreed, then i'd have no problem.
this is where applicable, of course. government parks and the like are already government property and i already assume i will be videotaped should i step on their premises.
WELLINGTON (Reuters) - New Zealand's largest phone company Telecom Corp. of NZ on Wednesday apologized and offered compensation to a customer after charging him a "penalty for being an arrogant bastard".
Telecom has ordered an investigation into how Auckland businessman James Storrie received the $140 charge shown on his monthly mobile phone bill.
"How can they speak to their clients like this? It's downright rude," Storrie told the New Zealand Herald newspaper, which carried his photograph holding the objectionable bill.
Telecom spokesman Martin Freeth said the company was appalled and embarrassed by the rude statement and had made an offer of compensation.
"We've apologized and taking steps to stop anything like this...it's an aberration," Freeth told Reuters.
Bob's bro-in-law handled an exact case of that--police surveillance camera on a pole across the street filming into the window and no warrant. They defended it by saying the camera wasn't on their property. I don't know whatever became of it. I'll have to ask.
They don't prosecute directly, you never know what they've done, unless someone decides to do a Serpico and rat the whole bunch out.
Judges tend to be fairly free-handed in handing out search warrants if there is much of any factual cover at all, save for this one exception phone taps. The problem with seach warrants is that they are required to be at least nominally aimed at some specific evidence of a crime under investigation, either committed in the past or on going as in a conspiracy case. How do we square that with proactive, preventative surviellance?
A couple of years ago, a favorite park of ours on the banks of a large bayou was getting regularly vandalized by what appeared to be a group of young teens - carving names into the playground equipment, flooding out the bathrooms, etc.
The police got real concerned, though, when this group apparently tried to torch several structures: light poles, benches, the support posts of the picnic pavillions, the floating fishing dock that juts a hundred feet out into the water - even melting a large hole right through a transparent bubble fixture on the playground apparatus.
So the county installed cameras all over the place at the very tops of the light-poles, trained on all the equipment, and at the entrance to the park.
The vandalism stopped immediately, and there hasn't been a single incident since.
I asked a sheriff's deputy last year, "Who's monitoring all this surveillance equipment - it's gotta be costing a ton."
"No one - it's all fake."
LOWELL, Mass. (AP) -- A woman was arrested for allegedly beating up another supermarket customer who brought too many items into an express checkout line.
Karen Morgan, 38, punched and kicked a 51-year-old woman outside the store on Sunday, police said.
Morgan was charged with assault and battery with a dangerous weapon, her foot.
The victim, whose name was not released, said the dispute began when she accidentally brought 13 items into a 12-items-or-fewer checkout lane.
Hmmpf. Accidently indeed. That's what they all say.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A playful, "cute as a button" kitten is the first-ever cloned cat, researchers said on Thursday.
The 2-month-old kitten called "cc:" is the first successful product of a program aimed at letting people clone their beloved pets at Texas A&M University in College Station.
The kitten joins a growing list of animals that have been cloned from adult cells, starting with Dolly the sheep and now including pigs, goats, cattle, mice and an oxlike creature called a gaur.
Now he's in trouble with the abstinence-only crowd (and how'd they get to be a crowd)?
Only in America.
Man Mows down 19 people with car and then returns to mow down 7 more. Musta been something he ate!
(Tallahassee, Florida) America's Best Christian, Mrs. Betty Bowers has announced plans to open a halfway house exclusively for George and Barbara Bush's grandchildren. "We wanted it to be available to others, but with the nursing shortage, we are probably going to be too busy already just attending to the sundry addictions of America's First Family of Politics," said Mrs. Bowers as she cut the ribbon. "Whereas White House occupant Betty Ford opened a facility to keep Liza Minnelli off the street, this is a way of returning the favor by finally providing a place for people in the White House to dry out."
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) -- A Saudi court has sentenced a man to six years in prison and 4,750 lashes for having sex with his wife's sister, a newspaper reported Sunday.
The woman involved in the case was sentenced to six months in jail and 65 lashes, the paper Al-Eqtisadiah reported, though the court found she had not consented to the relationship. She had also reported the affair to the police.
Having a relationship with one's in-law is considered a serious offense under the strict Islamic judicial code that Saudi Arabia follows.
The court, in the port city of Jiddah, ordered that the lashes be administered to the man at a rate of 95 at a time.
MANILA (Reuters) - A Filipino man was killed and his friend seriously wounded after they sarcastically applauded a student for singing Frank Sinatra's classic "My Way" off-key, according to a newspaper report.
The 21-year-old student felt insulted when the victims clapped after he sang the song at a karaoke parlor in downtown Manila, the reports said Monday.
After getting into a fight with the student's friends, the victims left the parlor to avoid trouble but were ambushed outside and shot by the student who was later arrested. Newspapers have said Philippine karaoke parlors have been removing "My Way" from play lists because fights frequently broke out -- for unfathomable reasons -- when the song was sung.
The song seems to drive many drunken men to commit anything from slight physical injuries to homicide, reports said.
How come no gruesome links about Georgia?
Officials had not revised the official body count by late Tuesday morning. But the official count of 149 bodies recovered does not take into account those bodies stacked in four of the five vaults that have been opened.
Wilson estimated that the count is well over 200. In addition, recovery crews have discovered additional vaults as well as caskets in the woods which have not been opened. Dr. Kris Sperry of the state medical examiner's office said they plan to search the vaults tomorrow.
LAGOS (Reuters) - A Nigerian man who confessed to killing his boss and making pepper soup with her body parts was arrested Wednesday, police said.
Salifu Ojo, a 23-year-old farm laborer in southwest Ondo state killed Christiana Elijah, a 40-year-old mother of four, after a dispute over his pay.
HOUSTON (Reuters) - No need for a recount when it comes to Girl Scout cookies: Thin Mints are the nation's favorite by an overwhelming margin.
Thirty eight percent of Americans prefer the Thin Mint, originally introduced in 1951 as the Chocolate Mint, according to survey results published on Wednesday by Texas-based market research firm MindSearch Inc.
Runner-up in the poll of more than 2,500 consumers were Caramel Delites, also known as Somoas, preferred by 18 percent of the nation's cookie munchers.
Peanut Butter Sandwiches (Do-si-Dos) and Peanut Butter Patties (Tagalongs) are favored by 13 percent and 12 percent of Americans respectively.
Sales of Girl Scout cookies are a fund-raising tradition that dates back to 1917.
"Our embassy in Pakistan has confirmed today that they have received evidence that Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl is dead," Richard Boucher, a spokesman for the State Department said in a statement today. "The murder of Mr. Pearl is an outrage and we condemn it."
The Journal said the kidnappers killed Mr. Pearl.
"We now believe, based on reports from the U.S. State Department and police officials of the Pakistani province of Sind, that Danny Pearl was killed by his captors," Peter R. Kann, the publisher of The Journal, and Paul E. Steiger, the paper's managing editor, said in a statement today. "We are heartbroken at his death. Danny was an outstanding colleague, a great reporter, and a dear friend of many at The Journal."
LONDON (AP) - Actor John Thaw, known to millions of TV viewers worldwide as the grumpy, music-loving detective in "Inspector Morse," died Thursday at 60 after a battle with throat cancer.
"John died with his family around him" at home, said Thaw's wife of 29 years, actress Sheila Hancock.
Thaw was a respected stage actor and had been a leading television actor for many years. But was he was indelibly identified with "Inspector Morse" after creating a complex character whose flaws appealed to fans as much as his better qualities.
The highly praised British series began in 1985 and lasted for 33 two-hour episodes that aired over 15 years. "Inspector Morse" had a 13-year run in the United States on PBS' "Mystery!" series, beginning in 1988, and was shown in many other countries.
It's rather striking how little attention he's gotten, relative to her.
Too many kids are a health hazard, is what I think.
Beware drunks bearing swordfish
"We don't see this kind of thing very often," said Pinellas County Sheriff spokeswoman Marianna Pasha.
Poor Lewis, tho...
What do Motiers think of the chances for this woman getting a settlement from Nintendo?
MIAMI (Reuters) - An 81-year-old woman in a wheelchair was arrested at Miami International Airport on charges of trying to smuggle nearly 10,000 Ecstasy tablets into the United States , Customs inspectors said on Friday.
The suspect, who was arrested with her 56-year-old boyfriend, told U.S. Customs inspectors she knew the pills were hidden in her luggage but thought they were Viagra, Miami television station WSVN reported.
Customs inspectors found 9,931 of the illegal pills hidden in a suitcase full of books during a routine X-ray of luggage coming off a British Airways flight that arrived in Miami from London on Wednesday night. They waited by the luggage carousel to see who claimed it.
"We were surprised when she and her boyfriend claimed the luggage," Chris Maston, the airport's chief Customs inspector, told the TV station.
He said drug smugglers were recruiting "people they think we wouldn't normally suspect" as couriers.
Bail was set at $250,000 each for the suspects, Stella Michetti and Hans Hirschi.
g'day. buh bye.
Bush's Fuzzy History
In case you weren't in Tokyo last week, here's a remarkable declaration President Bush made to Japanese lawmakers:
He said he was beginning his Asia trip in Japan "because for a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times."
Um, yeah, except for this small matter of Pearl Harbor and World War II.
The State Department's Web site reports the speech accurately (I listened to it myself; Bush really said that). The White House's site, however, offers a different take on reality.
It transcribes Bush's speech thusly: "My trip to Asia begins here in Japan for an important reason. It begins here because for half a century now, America and Japan have formed one of the great and enduring alliances of modern times."
Seems to me the president should get his history straight before the White House is forced to rewrite it.
This speaks very strongly for the case he's dyslexic.
I'm for sterilization if I cannot have execution.
Yeah, funny how we feel it is oaky to do so when someone deliberately drowns her FIVE innocent children one by one.
I was just saying, you know, at some point, we should maybe think about Yates having another passel of living targets.
Yep, I'm with you on that one. Sterilize them both. Andrea did the actual killing, but Rusty shows such gross neglect that he should never be allowed to have any more children either.
Apparently, drown them.
You two are such kidders.
I think she should be sterilized by lethal injection.
If not, than I think she should be sterilized, as Cottle suggests, because it is my understanding that prisons are regular singles bars, what with Speck and Smith getting all the strange they can muster.
And then Yates will get knocked up.
And NOW will support her right to choose life.
Feminists and advocates for the mentally ill are saddened, shocked, and disturbed ...
On the other side, conservative commentators, including Mona Charen, Laura Ingraham, and the folks at the Independent Women's Forum have blown a gasket....
Must TNR be so obvious about its liberal bias in its choice of verbs?
But there's another part of my mind, the part that remembers the end of a day in which the milk spilled phone rang one cried another hit a fever rose the medicine gone the car sputtered another cried the cable out "Sesame Street" gone all cried stomach upset full diaper no more diapers Mommy I want water Mommy my throat hurts Mommy I don't feel good.
Anna Quindlen - Kids! Sometimes, Couldn't Ya' Just Kill 'Em?
He probably has plenty of time on hands now that those damn kids are out of the way.
Don't make me run the tub.
That's the thing men don't understand about women. Those crazy kids can be frustrating. So, if you have to put one (or five) down, it's a joint venture.
You knocked my up, Rusty, so you do half my time.
As he didn't, Rusty may as well have been rounding the tykes up as Andrea put them down.
I am so tired of people blaming the dad. I don't care if he was a jerk and incompetent, you don't mention his sins in the same fucking galaxy as a monster who kills her kids, much less the same post.
What's really funny is that if Yates had booted his wife out of the house and said he was divorcing her for the safety of his kids, the same people who are now blaming him would be up in arms about his insensitivity to post partum depression.
I kept reliving this moment, and others like it, as I read with horrified fascination the story of Andrew Yates, a onetime nurse suffering from depression who apparently spent a recent several weeks killing local women in sex-realted murders. There is a part of my mind that imagines the women, alone, sacred, perhaps fighting back, all arms and legs, and then veers sharply away, aghast, appalled.
But there's another part of my mind, the part that remembers how a woman dresses all hot and yet, she is standoffish and you are confused by the signals and she is so alluring and yet, she doesn't give you the time of day and you're caught in between societal expectations and your own internal desires and the pressure just builds and builds.
Pulitzer me!
Didn't she know?
Didn't she know she was supposed to kill her own children? Clearly, she's just using that as an excuse. If she's feeling poorly, that's what her kids are for. Who the hell does she think she is running off and killing someone else's?
No joke. The woman behind the song "I Hate Mondays" is in jail, isn't she?
I think Andrea Yates is solely to blame for killing her children but I don't think a man who knows his wife has attempted suicide and talked about killing her kids gets off with zero blame for having impregnating her that last time, either.
To sum --
Quindlen's piece is the work of a vile pig.
The immediate transferance of any share of responsibility onto "Rusty" (as in, "yea, Andrea's bad, but how 'bout that man of hers?") is more than a little disconcerting.
I agree with Cottle that Yates should be sterilized.
I disagree with Cottle in that I believe sterilization should come about as a result of euthanization.
But shouldn't we avoid the deaths of future children and the mother's own euthanasia wherever possible?
Had Rusty refused to impregnate her for fear of her mental illness, disability advocates would be hopping. After all, I Am Sam can work Starbucks and raise a child, can't he?
But since Yates performed the unthinkable, Rusty's on the hook, but, well, he should have known better.
Had Rusty refused to impregnate her for fear of her mental illness, disability advocates would be hopping.
Yes, indeed. And, as I've said a few times now, the same women's groups keening on behalf of our Ms Yates would have been up in arms had he tried to divorce her or institutionalize her on the grounds that his kids weren't safe around her.
Had Rusty "refused" to impregnate his wife the last time, we most likely would not be having this discussion at all.
I suppose that we will find out more than we care to about the Yates' family dynamics. I would suggest that you try getting married and raising a family yourself, before pontificating on how one part of the couple could suddenly become irredeemably evil, while the other (in your eyes) only shows a regrettable lack of judgement in his choice of a wife.
Should I get a house with a lot of tubs before I presume to judge?
Tell me, would you have the same opinion if Andrea Yates had scammed the IRS? At what point can we stop holding Rusty responsible for her monstrosities?
Should only parents be allowed to judge her?
Can I be first in line?
She bears sole responsiblity for the crime of 5 murders but if you think it's ridiculous that he bear some small part of the burden of negligence, then it is YOU who aren't tracking.
But screw it; it isn't worth arguing about because you know it all and we who disagree know nothing.
With you being the apparent exception, I would think that most people raising a family recognize that the dynamics of a family are greater than just a sum of its parts. Did the circumstances of Andrea Yates' actions occur in some kind of vacuum? How did they arrive at the decision to have another child? Did Andrea Yates convince herself to go off meds, or did Rusty convince her? Whose idea was it to home school their children?
No, he doesn't.
Gosh, I shouldn't have any more kids because my wife might kill them.
She bears sole responsiblity for the crime of 5 murders but if you think it's ridiculous that he bear some small part of the burden of negligence, then it is YOU who aren't tracking.
Negligence? Is that what you call it when a woman murders her children in cold blood?
He owns nothing of the responsibility. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
If she openly said, "I want to kill my children and I'm planning on doing it Thursday" he can take a hit for not trying to get the cops to listen, and then sue them after the funerals.
No one is absolving the husband of all wrong. But the reflexive inclusion of the husband in any discussion of the murders is not without context. It holds hands nicely with the Quindlen "Us Mothers Are All Just A Spilled Formula Away From Mass Murder" ethos, and NOW's candlelight vigil for Yates.
Double Standards
Nice try but no cigar...don't change what I said, Cal. HE was negligent. If your ex said to you over and over that he was going to kill your kid, would you let him have visitation? Bet your ass you wouldn't.
So every parent in the world must have exactly the same opinion about this? You are factually incorrect in this; there are plenty of parents who have no problem judging. Therefore I suggest you reconsider making fatuous pronouncements that speak for all parents and stick to making them on your own behalf.
Did the circumstances of Andrea Yates' actions occur in some kind of vacuum? Did Andrea Yates convince herself to go off meds, or did Rusty convince her? Whose idea was it to home school their children?
Utterly irrelevant. I find it repulsive that you would consider women so completely incapable of making their own decisions.
Again, what sins can Andrea commit all by her lonesome? What crimes do you let her hubby off the hook for?
No one is absolving the husband of all wrong
Cal:
He owns nothing of the responsibility. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
No one?
I didn't. You said that he owned some small part of THE burden of negligence. The only "negligence" I see here is a monstrous bitch here who killed her children.
He didn't neglect his kids in the slightest.
You are giving a lot of credit to a woman who couldn't even decide to wash her hair or not.
Ha, ha, ha.
Gosh. Wash my hair, kill my kids?
Hey, I gotta fill the tub either way...
Rusty is guilty too folks. That doesn't give Andrea a free pass either. He is like someone who would meet Hinkley upon a day pass and loan him a gun with the suggestion that their spouse was dating Jodie Foster. He knew of her illness and that she had a history of thinking of harming the kids. Instead of trying to prevent her from being alone with the kids, he insures it. Instead of avoiding the supposed triggering event for her depression, he insures it occurs again and again. He acted such recklessness that one can presume indifference.
I don't recall enough of the Susan Smith case to say whether her husband was neglectful of the children's welfare. Smith wasn't crazy, she was just an extreme ego-centrist.
Everyone around Yates claims they knew she was nuts. They knew she was suicidal and that she had recurring fugue states/catatonia---or so they're all apparently willing to testify in court, and yet, Rusty continued to go off to work each day and leave her alone with the children.
I think leaving your children in the care of a violent, mentally unbalanced person qualifies as gross negligence.
I'm not sure to what Cal refers. I am talking about the husband's actions in general. I agree with Cal if she is saying that the husband has "nada" responsibility for the murders.
Don't you?
Actually, this isn't true. He clearly was making every effort to ensure his kids weren't alone with the woman, and she just as clearly scheduled the murders for the brief window when there was no coverage.
Instead of avoiding the supposed triggering event for her depression, he insures it occurs again and again. He acted such recklessness that one can presume indifference.
This is garbage.
Perhaps not all women in the world have your level of certitude when it comes what you think is the right thing to do. No doubt, if your hubbie had wanted you to have another kid, or wanted you to stop taking antidepressants, or wanted you to stay at home and educate the children, you would have tossed him out of the house, accompanied by fragments of his personal possessions. Andrea Yates was clearly not you, and I suspect most women are not either (however much some might want to be).
That said, everyone around Russell Crowe knew he was nuts, but A Beautiful Mind gets you a Nobel.
I'm betting that no one had a clue that Yates would murder her five children, and I certainly wouldn't assign culpability for their murders to those who thought she was disturbed.
Otherwise, I suppose her husband, blinded by love and commitment, is nowhere near as culpable as Yates' physicians, who had the training, know-how and expertise to realize she was a threat to others.
Correct?
He should have told the wife to move out of the house. He should have told her that he flatly believed that the kids were in danger. If she didn't move out, he should have called the cops. He should have tried to have his wife institutionalized, at best.
In other words, he should have taken actions that guaranteed he would have been excoriated in the press and by the same people pointing at him now.
I doubt these actions would have done any good at all, and I suspect he would have been legally prevented from taking most of them. But if he wanted a clean pass from me, that's what he should have done.
I think leaving your children in the care of a violent, mentally unbalanced person qualifies as gross negligence.
Civil liability for her physicians, who were privy to her dangerous condition?
So you are saying you want a world in which women are still owned by their hubbies, that they can't be held responsible for their own choices?
Christ, Wombat, we have the ability to abort. We have the ability to go out and get a job. But you are holding her husband responsible on the (unproven) grounds that he wanted her to do otherwise, and that he should be held responsible for her lack of will?
Tell you what--maybe we should be required to get signed parental consent before us chicks have kids. After all, we can't be trusted to make our own decisions, and the daddy might be taking advantage of us poor lil things. What's a girl to do except run home to mommy and daddy for guidance?
How many of us were left off the distribution list, do you think?
Yes, Rusty, you had children with a monster and we can't trust you again.
Don't you?
No, not really...Cal says Andrea cleverly planned and executed the murders during that short window of opportunity she had...why did she have that window if he was so very careful not to leave her alone? Because he blithely toddled off to work leaving her alone with them, that's why. And for her to plan it for that time, he must have done this more than once.
She is totally responsible for the murders, for the planning, for the deeds, for the deaths. What he did doesn't absolve her at all. But late at night, he deserves some sleeplessness wondering about his lack of action in this.
It must be wonderful to live in a black and white world, where all people act on the basis of individual free will, and can be held accountable as such.
No, that's not what he said at all.
If the woman was completely bedridden with a broken back and he left the children -- ages 7 to 6 months mind you -- home alone with her all day as she was "there to care for them" in my view he would be irresponsible and negligent.
The fact that his wife's illness was mental instead of physical in no way mitigates his responsibility to see that his children are properly cared for. If he had no knowledge of her illness, it would be different, but consider:
This does not mean she has no responsibility for the acts she committed. Clearly she is being prosecuted for her crimes. However, this does not mean he has no responsibility for the safe care of his children. He lived in that house, he knew his wife was a very sick woman, and he did nothing to protect his children. He should be held accountable for his negligence.
Since you claim that her actions didn't occur in a "vacuum".
1. What crimes will you allow her to commit without bring up her husband's complicity in her "situation"?
2. When are women responsible for their own actions, rather than able to fob off their lack of will/desire to please on their mean ol' hubby?
3. When are you going to back off your assertion that all parents hold the same opinion you do on his complicity?
When pigs fly...because he didn't say that.
I never heard these nuanced arguments when a mother with a known violent felon in the house does not do more to protect other innocent children by expelling her child from the home; reporting his actions to the police; or otherwise, disowning the criminal.
Rightly, blame is assigned to the one who commits violence.
I now better understand everybody's "The Village is Just as Culpable as the Village Idiot" point-of-view.
As senseless violence emanates from those who we should have known were going to commit it occurs, and concerned observes "string him up!", I will look forward to a chorus of "And his brother, and mother, and wife too! They should have known and they should have done something!"
Wombat told JC that he had to have children before he could "judge" her.
No, I don't hold the physicians responsible because they did their jobs. They had a duty to diagnose her illness or lack thereof, which they did. They had a duty to prescribe treatment, which they also did. They even went so far as to suggest lifestyle changes above and beyond medical treatment that might aleviate Yates' condition.
Andrea and Rusty Yates were the parents. They hold ultimate responsibility for the chidren living in their home. Andrea Yates is a murderer and Rusty Yates is a negligent parent. I don't care if she's a murderer because she's crazy or if he's negligent because he's gullible.
If a man with a history of domestic violence one day beat his children to death and the wife had as much warning as Rusty Yates did I'd be saying the same thing. The father is a murderer but the mother is a negligent parent.
Rusty knew Andrea was ill.
Nicole knew OJ was violent.
Rusty placed his children in proximity to Andrea.
Nicole placed Goldman in proximity to OJ.
Call Barry Scheck!
It must be wonderful to live in a black and white world, where all people act on the basis of individual free will, and can be held accountable as such.
I'm not.
There are plenty of people with mental illness who do not commit such horrific crimes. What she did was worthy of the death penalty. Personally, I'd like to have her die a slow and agonizing death.
As for Rusty's culpability, I think it's fairly obvious that he was criminally negligent. I think that he's standing by Andrea's side out of guilty fear.
"Yes, Rusty, you had children with a monster and we can't trust you again."
No. It's
"Rusty, you had children and then left them in the care of someone you knew to be a violent, whack-job so you're either too moronic or too irresponsible to be entrusted with the welfare of children."
I speak for myself just fine, thank you...the fact you have trouble understanding others is no fault of mine. I think you read too fast and make a stand on what you thought you've read and are too stubborn to admit you've made a mistake.
And if you don't want hear me whine, try understanding it's you who are seeing the whining where in reality, there is only opinion being stated. I have an opinon about Andrea Yates just as you have and we both have a right to state them.
How could anyone in their right mind support someone who murdered all of their children??
Two suicide attemps hardly qualify as "never violent".
Even if he didn't suspect she might take the kids with her on the final trip did Rusty think his children old enough to stay home alone with a dead body until he got done at work?
Don't get fussed, you should know by now that no matter the subject, CalGal will go to excruciating lengths to disagree with you.
I think you'll see that most of us here do not agree with her hardline position. You'll see that in the real world, too. Most everyone believes Rusty to be culpable in some way.
You left out the "get married" part while distorting the rest of what I was saying. I was suggesting that JC ought to walk a mile in our shoes before pontificating. Nowhere did I say that people who are raising families should hold the same opinion in re Yates. Because you seem to think that we should all hold your opinion, perhaps you are transferring that belief on to what I was saying.
The job of a physician encompasses more than diagnosis and treatment, depending on the jurisdiction. If a physician knows of a threat, his or her duties can be broader than you suggest.
Wow.
We don't live in that world?
What world are we living in?
Ron Goldman was an adult for whom Nicole had no guardianship responsibilities. Had he been a minor or had Nicole forced him into the house against his will, then I'd lay either negligence or accessory to murder charges at her feet. Assuming, of course, that she had lived through the assault herself.
I mean, would it be an acceptable defense for those who would label him grossly negligent if he were to say "My legal duty was not transgressed."
Why are we so forgiving of the specialists who had the expertise, unclouded by love and devotion, to recognize that Yates was a ticking bomb?
I know that's what you were saying, and that alone is not only stupid, but far more pontificatory than anything JC orated. You went on from there, though.
Apparently it is married people who you expect to have the same opinion. Whatever.
Christin,
"Rusty, you had children and then left them in the care of someone you knew to be a violent, whack-job so you're either too moronic or too irresponsible to be entrusted with the welfare of children."
You do realize that if Rusty had divorced her and then denied her custody, she probably would have gotten it? But you want to sterilize the guy?
So, if Goldman was the 14 year-old paperboy, Nicole is, as you say, a potential accessory to murder?
Your understanding of a physician's responsibility as opposed to a husband's is, um, wrong. To say the least.
Actually, the link shows that Christin is pretty much on the mark in Texas.
But I'll read it now.
"You do realize that if Rusty had divorced her and then denied her custody, she probably would have gotten it?"
No I don't know that and neither does anyone else becaue Rusty never bothered to try and get his children away from her. With the testimony of the doctors and other family members I imagine Rusty would've had a strong case for full custody with supervised visitation for Andrea. At least if he'd pursued it and been denied I could credit him with making a real effort to ensure his childrens' safety.
I was speaking of their responsibility to determine that Yates was mentally ill, that she shouldn't have been taken off the meds, or whatever, that she should have been institutionalized, that she was incapable of being left alone with children. All the things that MsNo is blaming the hubby for.
I don't know that they can be legally blamed for that, but I do know they are the only experts able to testify about that capacity in court.
I wasn't thinking of third party threats.
You and Jules seem to be making the same mistake. I couldn't give two shits about anybody's responsibility as a spouse. I'm talking about Rusty's responsibility as a parent and child care provider.
I also disbelieve that my GP has a greater legal responsibility to my children than does their father, but I'm certainly willing to read the case studies that show this to be true.
This, I agree with, and if you note earlier I say that I hold him responsible for that.
But this is a long, long, long way from culpability. For one thing, it would require a sense of safety that almost no parent has. There are far more horrifying cases of denial on the books than Yates, who can (so far as I've seen) make a very reasonable case for not having seen this coming in a zillion years.
So I can certainly say that he didn't do everything to keep his children safe. But I can't agree that what he did would have been successful--and, as I said, he probably woudln't have been allowed to do what would have been necessary. Your assumption that everyone would have gone along with him is unfounded in reality--quite the contrary, I am sure Gloria Allred would have been at Andrea's side in less than a day, funded by the same family that's now whining about Randy's culpability.
I wish he'd tried to keep his kids safe not because it would have been successful--I doubt it would. But if he'd tried, there'd be precedent and a whole lot of moms would be losing their kids about now.
But he wasn't a doctor, Christin. He received no medical advice telling him that his kids are in danger. His wife was under medical care and receiving all the help he could give her--including his mother coming over daily. Yet you want him to be able to dispassionately realize that the woman he was married to (and apparently loved) was capable of killing their children in cold blood--in defiance of doctors who gave him no information to the contrary.
And all that is assuming that he really did think something was wrong--and there's no guarantee that he did.
I also disbelieve that my GP has a greater legal responsibility to my children than does their father, but I'm certainly willing to read the case studies that show this to be true.
To diagnose stomach cancer?
Simply put, who was in a better position, unfettered by love and devotion and caring, to know that Yates could drown their five children?
Yet, the doctors just skate in the heaping helpings of culpability being apportioned here today.
So, if Goldman was the 14 year-old paperboy, Nicole is, as you say, a potential accessory to murder?
If the 14 year old had been in Nicole's custody and she brought him into her home where her violent husband might attack him then I'd say she was negligent, perhaps criminally so.
Nicole can only be responsible to the degree that she was responsible for Goldman being in the house. Subscribing to the LA Times doesn't pass the bar for culpability.
You have laid out quite a marker for custody decisions based on vague possibilities, but if you want to dispossess mothers formerly married to abusers from their children because the abusers may hurt the children (and indeed, they may, thus incurring a charge of criminal negligence based upon existence and proximity), it makes my point as to the stretch to impicated Rudy.
But that's still a long way from what we're discussing here.
For starters, if we are going to declare that PPD sufferers ought never to be around kids, let's get that in the law books.
I was under the impression that the doctors had diagnosed Andrea as severely depressed, in need of mood-altering drugs and regular therapy in order to prevent among other things further suicide attempts. I was also under the impression that Rusty was in full posession of these facts.
If he knew that she wasn't taking the medication and wasn't attending therapy then going by the professional diagnosis of the experts they consulted he should have at the very least expected her to be at risk for another suicide attempt.
Did Rusty, does anyone, feel it acceptible to leave five children under the age of 8 in the sole company of their mother's dead body for any length of time?
I'm not requiring Rusty to be a psychiatric expert. I'm only requiring that he heed the advice of the professionals he and Andrea consulted. If he chose to disbelieve their advice then he must take responsibility for his negligence.
Is 21965 to me?
And I'd be surprised if there were many of us here who couldn't point to instances where we knew or at least suspected the doctors were wrong about something wrong with ourselves or someone we loved and, rather than taking their first say-so, pursued it further to make sure appropriate treatment was being given. Why? Because a doc who only sees you a few minutes can't possibly be aware of what's wrong or how seriously wrong it is as much as someone who lives with you.
The doctor had just taken her off her meds.
So what if she might be at risk for killing herself? The leap from suicide to offing one's five children in cold blood is canyon-sized.
I wish we were talking about her suicide. In fact, that's the commercial I want to see.
"Thinking of killing your kids? Tried a shrink? Didn't help? Well, then, here's what you do: Find a gun and blow your fucking head off, baby, because if you can't stop yourself from murdering your children any other way, it's time to take one for the team."
I'm not requiring Rusty to be a psychiatric expert. I'm only requiring that he heed the advice of the professionals he and Andrea consulted.
What advice didn't he heed? Did they tell him to never let her around children? Did they tell him to put her in an institution? What is this advice that you want him to listen to, Christin?
Notwithstanding the idiocy of your search for blame, he did in fact do this. He had his wife's time covered as much as possible and--as I've mentioned before--the bitch killed her children in the one unsupervised hour she had.
I note that Christin wants poor Randy to follow advice he never received, whereas you want him to ignore it.
But that's still a long way from what we're discussing here.
It's pretty close to what I'm discussing. I think Rusty Yates was a negligent parent. I think he willingly, knowingly endangered his children by leaving them in the care of his wife. I think he is guilty of gross negligence. He is certainly no less guilty than a woman who stays with a batterer. Why would you support a law that deprives that woman of her custody rights on the basis of abuse/negligence but not Rusty Yates?
"if we are going to declare that PPD sufferers ought never to be around kids"
I don't think this will or even should fly since there are all degrees of PPD. Bsides which Yates suffers from Post Partum Psychosis which is much rarer. I'd be heavily inclined to support legislation that requires supervised custody for women diagnosed with PPP. I don't think crazy people should be left alone with children.
Andrea Yates suffered from more than just "baby blues". She had attempted suicide on two separate occasions, had aural hallucinations and catatonic fuges. This isn't a vaugue possibility this is precedent. It is a history of violent, destructive behavior.
Why do you think it's wonderful to believe individuals are responsible for their actions? It would be far more comforting, although quite ridiculous, to find others responsible for all my actions. Of course, I insist I am not responsible for my night dreams.
Whoever says that the husband might have a moral responsibility in right on.
Jenerator
From now on I will refer to you as the Lord since the Good Book says, vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord.
But they aren't in any way analogous. In fact, if Andrea Yates had put her children in danger to the point that authorities would have intervened, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Thus you are demanding that Randy Yates take actions that would not be supported or allowable by any government authority.
He is certainly no less guilty than a woman who stays with a batterer.
Nonsense. The batterer has acted. He had no reason to believe that his wife would kill the kids.
Bsides which Yates suffers from Post Partum Psychosis which is much rarer.
I don't believe she has received that diagnosis. There is not much evidence to support it anyway, from what I understand.
She had attempted suicide on two separate occasions, had aural hallucinations and catatonic fuges.
And her psychiatrist had just taken her off her meds, Christin. Explain again how Randy is supposed to be held responsible.
So has Anna Quindlen, apparently. And she gets published in Newsweek.
Uh, yeah. And before Andrea Yates' kids were killed, what was the difference?
Because she had TOLD him she had thought about it and wanted to do it?
Thinking about it is not necessarily a sign of anything at all, as the hordes of narcissistic bitches who have come rushing forward to claim kinship with Andrea have proved.
Fine...I guess we'll just close the discussion, then.
It has to do with whether Randy has any cupability or not which is what we were talking about...I thought.
He has no culpability. But in any event, you and others have given reasons, all of which are patently and laughably absurd--homeschooling, no more children, and a host of other demands that hold poor Andrea Yates as nothing other than a helpless mite cast on the waves of her husband's brutality.
None...you brought up Anna Quidlin, not I. Or do you want a snappy answer like, "Andrea Yates never wrote for Newsweek?"
And I have never said anything other than Andrea Yates is solely and completely responsible for her own actions. You want to make it seem because some of us think the father was negligent we are absolving her of any guilt...it's not gonna fly, no matter how often you imply it.
Sigh.
1. You cited Andrea Yates as having said she thought of killing her children.
2. I pointed out that other women, who have not killed their children, have thought of killing their children.
3. You say, but those women have not killed their children.
Yes, Judith. And what, exactly, is the difference? Tell me the difference--before the fact--between a woman who thinks, momentarily, of killing her children and one who thinks of it and says, "By golly that's such a good idea I'm gonna do it!"
So what if she might be at risk for killing herself?
As I've stated I don't think it's acceptable to leave your five minor children at home with a dead body all day. That is not responsible childcare.
What advice didn't he heed?
Was she taking the medication she was supposed to be taking? Was she attending the therapy sessions she was supposed to be attending? Did she seem not to be suffering from the symptoms that made them go to the doctor in the first place?
Then he's off the hook.
But if he was aware that she was not taking her prescribed medication or not attending her therapy sessions or was exhibiting the depressive symptoms which caused them to think she might need psychiatric help in the first place then he was negligent in his duties as a parent by leaving her alone with the children for any significant amount of time.
What is this advice that you want him to listen to, Christin?
The professional opinion that if Andrea Yates did not continue treatment for her mental disorders that she would continue to suffer from them. IOW if she didnt take her drugs and go to her counseling sessions shed continue to be suicidal and suffer from hallucinations. Only someone who is either criminally negligent or of insufficient intelligence to provide child-care would leave children in the custody of woman at high risk for suicide who sufferes from hallucinations.
This isnt a terribly high standard that Im holding him to.
[Jonesatlaw]:Instead of trying to prevent her from being alone with the kids, he insures it.
Actually, this isn't true. He clearly was making every effort to ensure his kids weren't alone with the woman, and she just as clearly scheduled the murders for the brief window when there was no coverage.
He planned on homeschooling the kids. If they go to school, whether its Horace Mann public, or SnakeHandlin' Free Evangelical Church of What's Happenin' Now Christian School or what have you,
the kids are out of her care for a knowable part of the day, under someone else's supervison. Then Granny can do her bit and the kids are never alone with her. Better yet, arrange for daycare with Granny as back up for doctor's appointments, snow days, sick days etc.
[jones again] Instead of avoiding the supposed triggering event for her depression, he insures it occurs again and again. He acted such recklessness that one can presume indifference.
This is garbage.
It's the husband's contention that she is mentally ill and suffering from postpartum depression. He also admits that she has a history of postpartum depression, that she's been suicidal on more than one occasion, that he found her with a knife on during one of those attempts, and that she'd had command hallucinations in the past, the subject of which was to harm the children.
So it's okay to leave your kids with Hanibal Lector, its only his moral responsibility if he eats them, right?
You pounce on things in order to change the argument all the time...it's a cheap way to browbeat people into submission but it has worked here today.
Have a nice evening.
I agree. But the person at fault is the parent who chooses to allow that to happen--namely, the parent who offs herself. And we're still a long, long, long way from murder.
Was she taking the medication she was supposed to be taking?
Are you tracking? Her doctor took her off the meds. I've said this three times now, and Maria has pointed out that Randy Yates was sufficently concerned to ask about it and was reassured.
Thus he is off the hook by your standards. It seems to me you should have known this before you started, when instead you began by declaring him negligent and culpable.
Um. Run that by me again? He didn't plan any such thing. They did. Her consent was required--in fact, I imagine she could pull them out of school without his consent, and only a divorce decree would be able to force them back.
The rest of your post is equally foolish, and I've responded to most of it from others anyway. Read back if you want more of a response.
OMG! She drew a tub. Oh, the horror.
Better not leave my kids with hubby....
Item 2 is no problem, and item 3 seems impossible. Next, what is to be done with the assessmnet? Taking her off Haldol seems to be a boo-boo in retrospect, but could have been reasonable. It would depend on how confident one could be in the safety of the situation she would be in if she began to decompensate again. How was the "monitor" portion of the treatment plan carried out? etc. I'll do some reading and respond again. It could be an interesting issue, as well as what factors influenced their decisionmaking? Any pressure to treat or not to treat based on provider agreements, benefit caps or coverages? Is the Yates case one where we can expect to see worried Bob and Linda discussing healthcare policy in industry commercials soon?
Bob: I'm worried that psychotic mothers might be getting expensive treatment and driving our premiums up.
Linda: If doctors are busy treating mentally ill people, how will we discuss the trauma of not finding the right rug at Ikea with our psychoanalyst?
I said they were similar and I still contend that they are. I read:
Actually, I believe that parents in abusive relationships can lose their children these days if they refuse to live apart. Mothers can also lose custody if they live with an abusive guy and the kids dad has a good lawyer, sometimes.
I asumed you meant the mother was being battered, since it goes without saying that if the children are being abused they should be removed from the home. Hence I don't understand why you think it's such a great leap on my part to liken the Yates' case to it. One parent is clearly violent and unstable regardless of whom has been the target of the abuse in the past.
Nonsense. The batterer has acted. He had no reason to believe that his wife would kill the kids.
Andrea Yates has acted. She has acted twice to kill herself. He doesn't need to believe that she will harm the children he just needs to be responsible enough not to risk leaving his children alone with a dead person all day.
And her psychiatrist had just taken her off her meds, Christin. Explain again how Randy is supposed to be held responsible.
He was concerned enough about her behavior when she got taken off the Haldol to seek a second opinion. He obviously didn't think things were fine. He took steps to get Andrea further treatment but he took no steps to ensure the safety of his children when it was reasonable for him to do so.
I think that the death penalty should be reserved for those most morally culpable, not applied on a "kill'em all, let God sort them out" basis. Thus, I see a derranged and yet criminally culpable person as being less deserving of execution than one who kills without the impairment. You apparently feel differently.
The rationale isn't that the kids are at risk for being battered, but that the very existence of battering is abusive to the kids. So the abusive environment itself exists, and the kids are living in it. Both parents are held equally responsible for a situation that already exists. None of this applies to the Yates case--to say nothing of the fact that the parents aren't carted away or sterilized.
She has acted twice to kill herself.
Actually, she tried to kill herself, which is different. But in any event, so what? If you want the state to start removing kids as a matter of course in suicide attempts, get ready for a battle. He'd have trouble even justifying custody in a divorce on those grounds--although it'd be better than most.
He was concerned enough about her behavior when she got taken off the Haldol to seek a second opinion.
And what was the second opinion, Christin? First you want him to follow doctors' advice, when I point out that he does you want him to ignore it.
To say nothing of the fact that he was worried about her safety, not his kids.
This really makes no sense.
Actually, she tried to kill herself, which is different. But in any event, so what? If you want the state to start removing kids as a matter of course in suicide attempts, get ready for a battle. He'd have trouble even justifying custody in a divorce on those grounds--although it'd be better than most.
Nonsense, been there professionally, done it, not a problem with records far less florid than Yates, and with judges famous for favoring mothers.
Are you tracking?
This sort of comment isn't necessary. I can only assume that you no longer wish to discuss this topic with me so I will graciously allow you to continue it with someone else.
His "beliefs" are a series of shallow exuses designed to relive him of all responsibility.
Gas the creep!
From what I have seen, he hasn't really dealt with or even acknowledged what his wife did. Granted he may have "forgiven" her, but why is he supporting her? It's as though he excuses what she did.
As for vengeance and justice, I always think about David and the Psalms.
Bullshit.
But at issue is his pre-horror behavior, and to at least put a close to my thoughts on this matter (which, honestly, does me no good to discuss, as it brings me very low), I have similar difficulty retrospectively ascribing responsibility to his "decisions" (take away, for a moment, the two to tango requirement) to father children with his wife, as well as his decisions to leave them in her care. Indeed, to be clear, my discussion as to assigning responsibility to her physicians was more to test argument. The human mind is so byzantine that, in the end, the responsibility lies with the wrongdoer. I leave presumptions of contributing factor and accomplice and gross negligence to others, be they to Rusty or Andrea's mental health professionals. They were faced with perhaps unendurable decision daily, and I presume they approached those decisions with good faith, if fallible.
So, I'm left with a woman, cleary ill (and a jury will determine if she is so ill as to have obliterated her sense of right and wrong) who I know commited the unspeakable acts.
And as I began, if death is the judgment, so be it. If not, Cottle's argument as to sterilization seems reasonable. All one has to do is imagine Andrea Yates "cured" and pregnant.
I am still puzzled by the reflexive ascribing of responsibility to her husband. I've simply never seen it before in a country where vile criminal acts are perpetrated regularly, and there is no shortage of potential accomplices, contributing factors, and the grossly negligent.
You're such an old softie!
"The human mind is so byzantine that, in the end, the responsibility lies with the wrongdoer."
In other words -- Rusty!
What was he doing impregnating a clinically-depressed woman who the doctors had informed him could not deal with yet another pregnancy.
Send the motherfucker (literal in this case) to the chair!
You're such an old softie!
Lord, don't I know it.
To move from one unspeakable tragedy to another --
Beautiful and True Words on the Death of Daniel Pearl
My terse statement is not meant to absolve Yates in any way. She may have been severely ill but from her statements it does not appear she was psychotic or completely unable to control her actions.
I haven't really read enough about the case to comment, but what I have read on this thread suggests that she was hallucinating, which is a symptom of psychosis.
I do know a bit about mental illness though, which makes it difficult for me to see the woman as a monster, even though the act she committed was certainly monstrous.
1. Andrea was on Rx drugs at the time of the murder. Dr. Saeed was reluctant to prescribe a haldol cocktail which she had done very well on during a previous episode. He had her on Haldol for awhile, but improvement was only marginal. She is currently on Haldol again and seems to be improving. Reading this article suggests that Dr. Saeed could've have made better decisions and been more thorough...including his parting advice that she could see a psychologist and to think positive thoughts. Rusty knew how well his wife did on Haldol, kept asking for it but didn't change drs. Article makes some suggestion that insurance coverage played into the decision of where/how Andrea was treated.
2. The prior doctor who seemed to help her muchly (from another source, not Time) strongly advised against their having any more children. Obviously this advice was ignored. Lots of references to Rusty wanting at least 6 children.
3. Recognize that there is little evidence besides Rusty's say-so that he didn't know she was hearing voices (Get a knife! Get a knife!) and seeing bloody visions. But here are some of the things he had witnessed over the past several years: a) 4 hospitalizations for mental illness including heavy doses of psychotropic drugs, periods of near catatonia; b) two suicide attempts; c)he thought her so ill that he requested shock therapy for her; d) scratching her head to baldness (looking for proof of the devil's 666 mark); e) she stopped talking, drinking liquids; f) she would carry the new baby Mary around but would not feed her... as she had done with her youngest son before; g) Andrea has a strong family history of mental illness including two siblings treated for depression, a depressed father and a bi-polar brother.
That's very enlightening. He had to have at least six kids no matter what? It sounds like she was barely functioning. I don't know enough about the law now to understand why he couldn't have her committed.
Rusty took Andrea to close the deal. She was now receiving Haldol monthly and looked like a zombie, says Rusty, but he remembers she could hold the pen, signing here and initialing there, agreeing to pay the mortgage along with him. "I wanted her name to be on the deed," Rusty says...
Home, however, was a demanding place. Andrea had resisted the idea of a nanny or housekeeper, says Rusty, who felt that keeping house "was a source of pride for her."
She did have her MIL help care for the children during the day between her 3rd & 4th hospital stays, though it's not clear from the article where she was on the day of the murders.
Some of Andrea's behavior including tearing out her hair looking for 666 and tearing at her own skin included obsession with the bible, and discussing her satanic possession with a friend. We might consider these signs of her illness, but the scary part is Rusty's comments about her:
"Bible and brain." God blessed them with 5 children in 8 years of marriage. A big family, Rusty says, was going to be their "adventure in life." But, he explains, "the Bible says the devil prowls around looking for someone to devour. I look at Andrea, and I think that Andrea was weak"--not morally weak but chemically weak, her resistance to evil lowered by mental illness.
There's no difficulty about committing someone who has been hospitalised and discharged previously. That happens all the time with the mentally ill. The hospitals often operate a sort of revolving door system - patients are committed, treated until they're well enough to leave - they leave, go off their meds and they're back again before long.
We also have a system of community committal. I don't know if that system is in place in the States. Essentially the patient remains committed, but is deemed well enough to operate in the community. However, they're under fairly strict supervision and at the first sign that things are not going smoothly they can be immediately readmitted to hospital without having to go through the drawn-out committment process again.
Further, "'He didn't want her working at all,' former neighbor Sylvia Cole, a psychiatric nurse, said as she described the couple as loving and responsible. 'He wanted her staying at home.'"
His version, according to Time, "He recalls...offering to cut back on his work so she could return to nursing. She refused he says, telling him, 'I'm a mother now.'"
But Andrea was continuing to receive treatment and medication. Not at all the same thing as what you're describing here.
I do think it's fairly common for people to be committed and realeased fairly soon thereafter, though.
I've never heard of anything like community commital here.
I don't see where you've addressed this, so why this conclusion?
I haven't seen any evidence presented here that he would have known that she was 'seeing bloody visions', at any rate. Not saying that he didn't, in actuality, but....
Re the evidence that he knew she was hearing voices/seeing visions, I said it was thin, but when considering the case, I'm keeping in mind that we only have his say-so that he was unaware of her delusions. Why that might not be so? When her care shifted to Dr. Saeed, he strongly encouraged the doctor to review her records from prior doctors, suggesting he may have known what was in them. We also don't know what conversations he may have had with his wife or with her other doctors about her condition.
But the story here is not of someone who seemed very normal and suddenly snapped, or the story of someone who got a "case of the blues" after the birth of each child which fully dissipated in a short time. It is the story of a person who exhibited signs of mental illness for years with all indications that the condition was severe and deteriorating.
"About 11:30 Saturday night, Sylvest took the teens to the French Quarter and left them on Bourbon Street while he visited area barrooms," sheriff's spokesman James Hartman said.
Sylvest told investigators he last saw the girls about 3 a.m. Sunday when they were sitting on the curb outside a bar talking with two men.
"When he emerged from the bar some time later, the girls were gone," Hartman said.
#22037 is very well put! Thank you.
On February 18, 2002, at 1330 central standard time, a Cessna 177 airplane, N3402T, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain near Pond Creek, Oklahoma. The airplane was registered to and operated by Eagle Sky Patrol, of Lead, South Dakota. The commercial pilot, who was the sole occupant of the airplane, sustained serious injuries. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and a flight plan was not filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 pipeline patrol flight. The flight originated from the Pratt Industrial Airport, Pratt, Kansas, at 1155, and its destination was the Captain Jack Thomas/El Dorado Airport, El Dorado, Kansas.
In a telephone interview conducted by the NTSB investigator-in-charge, the pilot reported that while on a pipeline control flight at 300 feet agl, he momentarily "dozed off." "The next thing I knew, the airplane had impacted the ground in a shallow nose down attitude and was sliding across the ground, eventually coming to rest upright in a wheat field, having slid a total of 240 feet."
An examination of the airplane by an FAA inspector revealed that the nose landing gear had been sheared off, the left main landing gear had separated, impacting the left horizontal stabilizer, the firewall was substantially damaged, and left wing root area was buckled.
(NTSB)
BRAINTREE, Mass. (AP) The brother of a man convicted of the beating death of a man at a youth hockey practice faces assault charges after allegedly lashing out at store employees when they refused to let him return a cell phone without a receipt.
James Junta, 42, of Quincy, was released on $500 bail after pleading innocent Wednesday in Quincy District Court to assault and battery with a dangerous weapon, the phone.
BISHKEK (Reuters) - A group of drunken hunters cut off electric power to a third of the population of Kyrgyzstan's capital when they used ceramic insulators on high-voltage lines for target practice.
One building which suffered the 30-minute blackout on Friday was a hotel hosting a conference -- on alcohol abuse.
Delegates, including Deputy Prime Minister Nikolai Tanayev, were obliged to take a coffee break.
God's Verdict Is In - Linda Tripp - National Malignancy Has Cancer
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A man squeezed into a garbage chute in an apartment building to retrieve a favorite old sweater thrown away by his wife, but got stuck between floors, the fire brigade said on Friday.
Firefighters had to rescue the 25-year-old Ecuadorian, who had managed to pull himself through the chute's nine-inch-wide garbage hole on the third floor, legs first, after discovering the basement door to the garbage area was locked.
"It was not difficult at all, because I am quite small," he told the Expressen daily. "I knew the garbage would probably be collected early in the morning so I rushed to save the sweater."
He got stuck after sliding one floor down and was unable to climb up knotted bedsheets lowered into the chute by his wife.
After his rescue, the basement doors were unlocked for him to retrieve his now filthy sweater -- a hand-knitted gray-black present from his mother.
OKLAHOMA CITY (Reuters) - A woman was arrested in Oklahoma on Thursday for trying to smuggle hacksaw blades inside a Bible to her jailed son who was only recently recaptured after escaping from prison, authorities said.
Tawana Cherese Smith, 54, was arrested in southern Oklahoma near the town of Waurika after authorities said they found the blades in the spine of a Bible she brought to her son, Joshua Bagwell.
Smith, an attorney who has been representing her son, was also found to be carrying two assault rifles in her pickup truck, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation said.
Bagwell, convicted of raping and murdering a high school cheerleader, was one of four escapees who were recaptured in Oklahoma in early February, having spent 10 days on the run after breaking out of a northern Texas jail on Jan. 28.
LONDON (Reuters) - The British Army is allowing single soldiers to bring their girlfriends back to barracks overnight.
"We want to be more flexible in the way people live their lives," said General Sir Michael Walker, head of the army, signaling the change of policy for Britain's 50,000 single soldiers.
"Visitors should become the norm rather than the rarity," Walker told reporters. But he insisted: "We are not setting up knocking shops."
He said the army, which has faced problems retaining new recruits, needed to move with the times and "listen to society."
KNOCKING SHOP
Knocking shop is slang for a brothel.
(The Probert Encyclopaedia)
Meanwhile, in the life and art, art and life department:
Last night's Judging Amy had a segment that could have been spun from the Yates tragedy. A looney woman, more of a conspiracy theorist than a religious nut, was raising her three children in isolation. Tyne Daly's social worker character was on the case but making no headway. Shortening here. A traffic accident sent the loon to hospital and caused the cops to attempt to notify her kids. The teenaged son went nuts at the sight of cops and warned them off with a rifle. A major standoff scene ensued which, of course, convinced the kid that mom was right all along about "them."
Naturally Maxine (Daly) saved the day.
FORT WORTH - A nurse's aide has been charged with murder, accused of hitting a man with her car, driving home as he was lodged in the windshield and ignoring his cries for help as he bled to death the next two days in her garage.
Police say Chante Mallard, 25, and her friends then put the stranger's body in another car's trunk and dumped it in a park.
"There's a pretty good possibility he'd be alive if he'd gotten help, but she concealed the body in the garage ... so that's why she's charged with murder," said Fort Worth police Lt. David Burgess.
Mallard was arrested Wednesday night and was later released after posting bail. She faces from five years to life in prison and a fine up to $10,000.
Nazi Death Camp Guard Candidate of the Week: Chante Mallard
Just what the fuck is wrong with people like her and her 'friends' that they lack humanity to such an extent that they would treat a fellow citizen like a cockroach? Can somebody explain this?
PARIS --President Jacques Chirac's campaign spokeswoman Roselyne Bachelot marked International Women's Day on Friday by inaugurating France's first female condom machine.
But the plan aimed at polishing the incumbent's feminist credentials ahead of the presidential election in May backfired when women protesters complained that the female condoms were three times the price of the versions made for men.
One female condom costs two euros ($1.76) --customers can snap up three of the male version for the same price.
Bachelot unveiled the new condom machines -- blue for men, pink for women -- in a central Paris metro station, one of five stations now equipped with them.
Of course-- I can understand her just hoping the bum will crawl out and go away. On the pay of a nurse's aide, she'd never be able to pay off a lawsuit.
This guy was homeless but he was not a bum. He had a job and coworkers spoke highly of him and at one time he had a home and a family. His son is 19 and a very intelligent young man.
LONDON (Reuters) - You'd like a drink, but don't know where to turn?
A pair of beer-loving entrepreneurs have just the solution -- a computer that straps onto the wrist and directs the wearer to the nearest pub, Britain's Sun newspaper reported.
The hi-tech device uses satellite-positioning systems to determine the wearer's location, then prints the addresses of the four nearest pubs on a screen, the paper said Friday.
The contraption, called eSleeve, also recognizes the wearer's voice and can even help drunken revelers find their way home, according to Bristol University inventors Cliff Randell and Henk Muller.
Randell was quoted as saying: "It works perfectly, but might have trouble recognizing your voice after one too many pints."
LINCOLN, Neb. (AP) -- You know, have you ever considered, you know, how many times, you know, some people say ``you know'' when they speak.
Lincoln Pound Middle School student Evan Koontz did and it won him $1,000.
The annual ``You Know'' contest is one of several scholarship programs sponsored by Col. Barney Oldfield. It gives a $1,000 award to students who recognize the gross misuse of the meaningless phrase ``you know'' in radio and television broadcasts.
Koontz taped an athlete saying ``you know'' 30 times in a two-minute, 15-second interview.
Oldfield has donated more than $3 million for a number of Nebraska scholarship over the years. The 92-year-old retired Air Force colonel was born in Tecumseh and now lives in southern California.
Would you have been the 'hangman'?
Seems to me finding Ms. Yates guilty makes no logical sense.
That's the long answer. The short answer is NO I would not have been the hangman, [without knowing any more than I know from reading a few newspaper articles.] I like to think I would have hung the jury.
The verdict was indeed fast. That most often means a defense verdict..a not guilty one...but not here.
The case was in Texas, and the case had been going on for some time.
Well, I didn't watch even a single minute of the trial. Ha ha ha.
Among other things, it means the prosecution did a hell of a job picking a jury.
Were they practicing psychologists or just BAs?
I know, I've been reading the same comments about the defense having taken control. And yet, here we are. The prosecution must have done something right.
Jex, the talking heads at first said the defense took control of the closing arguments...but how well they influenced the jury is now clear.
Unless of course Miss Laura whacks the little drunks..
Now THAT's a criminal trial I'd follow!
One thing that always bugged me, though I think I did only two not guilty by reason of insanity cases...is that you can't tell the jury if they find the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity, the defendant often ends up in a mental institution, criminal section, getting care..AND may not be released until a judge agrees they are now sane. So sometimes a release date will be longer than a simple guilty.
We all noted, of course, how H. Rap Brown "skated" yesterday -- with an predominantly black jury.
connie, as usual, you're full of shit.
I also have a vague recollection from law school that some jurisdictions have a "diminished responsibility" verdict. That would seem the just result in this case. The poor woman was obviously right off her rocker.
We all noted, of course, how OJ Simpson skated.
He was black, cllrdr.
Absensia -
What is cllrdr on? Are you on it too?
My bad. I forgot that I must have solicited your comment.
And yes, I was being solicitous to you.
So they're believers in 'social promotion'?
Some of the public schools where I live have done the same thing. To cover though, they have combined grades. For example, there's a kindergarten class, a 1st grade class, a second grade class, etc. There is also a combined kindergarten/first grade class, combined first/second grade class, etc. The thought is that if your child was in first grade last year and isn't quite ready for second, they can put him/her in a combined 1/2 class with the goal of overcoming the deficiencies and getting the child back to where he/she needs to be. They also take first graders who are doing especially well and start teaching some of the second grade curriculum. It seems to work pretty well.
Of course, we seldom had more than about twenty students in the room.
Dallas Morning News---A Dallas girl who ate hemlock has been declared brain-dead, hospital officials said Tuesday.
Catherine Vanstone, 13, was among a group of Dallas-area girls spending spring break at Perennial Vacation Club just outside Bandera, about 40 miles west of San Antonio.
She found the hemlock along a riverbed during a nature hike.
The "combined classes" have nothing to do with social promotion, although it is an attempt to deal with slower and smarter kids. A very bad one, as it turns out. But if you were moved to second grade you were promoted, whether in a combined class or not. Doing away with social promotion means you stay in first grade.
Social promotions are a terrible idea. Unfortunately, it is also true that nothing much is good by leaving them back a grade unless the only problem was maturity. If you aren't capable of passing the work the first time in any grade but kindergarten, the problem is either due to a learning disability or a lack of intelligence. Neither problem is addressed by declaring a do-over.
I agree with some of what you said but you left out "bad teacher" on your list of possible causes. I tend to place much more blame on the students, parents, etc, but i have occassionally seen a really terrible teacher that didn't know how to be flexible in their teaching style and accomadate all the different forms of learning.
Wanted your opinion of the name chosen by an intramural basketball team made up of Native Americans at the University of Northern Colorado:
The Fightin' Whities.
Ohhhh, the shame. Ohhhh, the humiliation. Ohhh, the disrespect. Jes' funnin'.
I hear they're swamped with requests for logo T-shirts, btw.
Four hours deliberation in a multiple homicide case where you have dueling experts, reems of medical records, and a number of lay witnesses to her behavior. I would bet that the yahoos spent more time on picking the foreperson and ordering lunch than on the evidence.
I am afraid they are thirsting for blood, but we'll see what happens at the DP phase.
It would be very easy to cut through all that. None of the "experts" established that she didn't know right from wrong, from what I've read of the testimony.
And in the case of Yates, as Cal points out, the issue was pretty simple. Could she divine right from wrong?
Jones apparently believes a non-Texas jury might have picked their nails longer in an effort to appear civilized.
As it is, the bloodthirsty jury can now be denigrated by someone who saw his evidence on TV, from which he has concluded that more time was needed to assess the battle of experts.
The scholars, the media, and most of the studies do their best to persuade us that these murderous moms really are ill. Perhaps it comforts us to believe that anyone who violates the sacred mother-child bond is simply crazy; it would be unimaginable if these mothers were making rational criminal choices. And since women are not violent in other contexts, most scholars, including Oberman, argue that the majority of maternal murderers suffer from depression, postpartum psychoses, and other mental afflictions. But no one has put forth an analogous medical theory to explain whether fathers who kill their offspring are also depressed, isolated, or psychotic.
The problem with the "illness" theory is that it only goes partway toward explaining why women kill their babies. Illness may explain how some women eventually snap and behave violently. But it doesn't begin to explain why they direct this madness so disproportionately toward their own offspring. Even taking into account that some small fraction of the mental illnesses associated with maternal filicidemost notably postpartum depressionare triggered by the births themselves, the illness theory doesn't explain why mothers suffering from other mental illnesses, or who aren't ill at all, act out with their own children rather than strangers. The illness theory doesn't explain why we don't consider fathers who kill their children to be sick. Pulling murderous mothers out of the field of ordinary criminology and viewing them as fundamentally different raises more questions than it answers. Perhaps murderous mothers are no crazier than fathers. Perhaps murderous fathers are even crazier than mothers.
Why does the legal system treat a mother who kills someone else's child as though she were a sociopathic killer while showing mercy toward a mom who drowns her own? For the same reason the law treats individuals who burn down other people's houses as criminals and institutionalizes those who burn down their own. Men are disproportionately jailed for filicide not because they are more evil than women but because we believe they have harmed a woman's propertyas opposed to their own.
Emphasis mine.
that is a really interesting article...also explains why men who murder their wives/SO's get less jail time than those who kill strangers?
Texas does have higher executions than other states...so maybe she will be executed. It's not the evidence, it's the crime...if she had killed one, or her husband, she'd get life, but 5 little and cute children who watched as their sibs were killed? No way, and why even consider if she was crazy.
yeah, I don't think any lawyer could be good enough to get that woman off, crazy or not. And I think the reason people come down hard on child killers is because we all have our moments, we all get pushed to the edge of mommy (or daddy) at times but very few of us ever actually kill our kids let alone five of them.
It sounds like she was at the least emotionally abused by Rusty, he surely would make my assholes no one should date list, but that just doesn't matter...she killed her babies.
Right, because then you could blame the jury and enjoy wallowing in a self-righteous snit.
Besides, had they come back with "not guilty" in that time frame you would have made pious noises about how compelling the experts were, never mentioning the possibility that they didn't "review".
They actually could have "reviewed" it in three hours with one simple goal: "Did anyone establish she didn't know right from wrong?"
Eminently doable in that timeframe.
Yes, I think men get some measure of undeserved sympathy for killing wives and girlfriends if their only ostensible reason was jealousy. Nowhere near as egregious, only tacitly supported by juries, and not at all by the media. Plus, this is the feminists' cause celebre, so it's not like it doesn't get googabs of attention.
If the woman didn't have a long history of mental illness, hadn't attempted suicide on two occasions prior to killing the children, didn't have a consistent history of delusional thinking, it would be hard not to reject the defense theory as too convenient. But she did have such a history. In the case of someone so delusional it's difficult to pare out what a moral motivation is. If I know that it is immoral to kill someone unless in self-defense or defense of others, but am delusional enough to truly believe that it is necessary to kill them to prevent their souls from eternal damnation, and leaving them to damnation is also immoral when I can act to prevent it, do I "know" it is wrong to kill them?
That dad knew his wife was coming unhinged and yet still pushed for more pregnancies is sad. I want to shake him and say what were you thinking?
A sick family situation. Bad choices. Unbelievable that so many knew the woman was in the state she was in and were not able to stop it.
But none of that relieves her from responsiblity of killing her babies. I would think that she knows that.
I feel sorry that she was in such a lousy situation. But I totally agree that she should be held responsible for killing her children.
them and finally breaks down when confronted by the local sheriff with the lie that the intersection where the abduction was to have occurred was subject to undercover observation. She's found to have a history of sexual abuse, and is a classic narcissistic sociopath. She lives.
Yates drowns her children in the grip of mental illness, and will likely die.
Despite Slate and Cal, this and the differing death penalty rates has not a damn thing to do with property or mother complexes.
If Susan Smith had been tried in Harris County (or Fort Bend), she would have been given the death penalty.
Does the jury or the judge in Texas determine sentencing? I assume it is the jury.
1) A "classic narcissistic sociopath" is mentally ill. Where is your sympathy?
2) Yates very easily could have been a narcissist. That sort of overinvolved, look what a wonderful parent I am, look how I love my children, is very much in that strain. Besides, a lot of women like that are sympathy junkies.
Nonsense. Yates and Smith are special cases, two of the few where the mother is getting what she deserved, despite the hordes of whiny morons who plead for understanding of the special problems women face in our paternalistic, materialistic society. I certainly wish Smith had gotten the death penalty, but that is generally attributed to her having been a local girl. Too bad.
This was not a case of the baby blues.
Women get a break on every aspect of criminal law, as I recall, except maybe murder of a spouse. They rarely get the death penalty. If you think that disproves anything that Slate piece says, then you didn't read it very well.
After deliberating for two hours, the Yates jury asked a single question: What is the definition of insanity? Soon thereafter, they had a verdict.
So much for them not having thought about it, Abs.
I wish TX would go after him for his role in this. While I know there are those here who disagree with me, I would find him at least guilty of child neglect. But I also believe he played an important role in her deteriorating mental state. How many of our neighbors view our home environments so bad that they feel compelled to keep a journal of our deteriorating mental state? Andrea Yates' neighbor did. The fact is, since she's been in jail, her mental condition has improved. I would doubt this would be a typical response to being jailed. While it's good that she's getting better, it probably worked against her in terms of the verdict.
I'm thinking of the success of cop videos in getting convictions when they show the driver drunk as a skunk. Without them, juries often have trouble believing the well-dressed, sober and rational looking person in front of them could ever do the things s/he is accused of. If Andrea was sitting there in court ripping her hair out or in a catatonic state, I suspect the jury would have had a much harder time reaching the decision they did.
Sometimes it's almost as much work for me to figure out how to effectively teach something which I've picked up through experience as opposed to gathering it from a text as it was to learn it in the first place.
Btw, as a tutor in my college days, I once advanced a girl through sophomore level hs math to beginning calculus in about ten weeks.
I also wonder where your sense is of individual responsibility. She was an adult. How can you seriously complain that Randy Yates "emotionally abused" her without her full consent? Why are so many people seeking to excuse women? My lord, thoughtful, we can work, we can abort, we can put our kids in school, we can earn our own keep, we can run off with cabana boys--what will it take to get you to accept that women make their own choices? If she was so miserable with Randy Yates that she killed her children, then she has no one to blame but herself. Randy Yates may or may not be an over-controlling bastard, but he didn't kill his children, and there is literally nothing he could have done to her that would make him culpable in her decision to murder them.
I was speaking rather figuratively here. Clowntoon overall modus operandi just struck me as resembling that of a tin pot banana republic autocrat.
The crime and trial were in Harris County.
Given that her mental illness was diagnosed long before she killed the kids or before she had any contact with lawyers I doubt very much that she was under the influence of her lawyer in an attempt to fake insanity. There was no dispute in any of the testimony that she has a serious mental illness. The only dispute is whether or not that mental illness prevented her knowing right from wrong.
Has Andrea Yates ever manifested any previous overt physical threat to her children?
As far as 'getting crazy in jail,'that has been the argument of prosecutors for a long time...it's been defined as "gazer's (sp) syndrome, and believe me, the prosecution's shrinks were told to look for that and bring it up if it was there.
Proving for children via food, clothing, etc. is not the end of "parental responsability." Both parents are charged, under the law, with providing for the child's well being. I read that as a lot more than food, clothing and shelter.
for murder of sheriff's deputy." CNN
I think the father abused his children by having them with a clearly mentally ill mother and fills the definition of neglect as well. There are baby sitters, family members, etc.
The mother killed them....she is paying for it. But the father should not be allowed to get away with this scott free.
if the death penalty wasn't involved, would you have any concerns about this woman's conviction?
I completely support the conviction but find the death penalty a disgusting, dirty matter.
Abs, away from the specifics of the Yates case do you believe it is always abuse for a man to have children with a mentally ill mother?
"Always abuse" is a broad scope. I know people who have psychological problems that have been good parents.
Would it be neglect for a parent to have a babysitter who could not take care of the children because s/he just suffered a severe stroke and doesn't have the physical ability? I think so.
Believing she was possessed by Satan, Yates thought that her children "were not righteous." If she killed them while they were young, she told a psychiatrist, then "God would take them up" to heaven. Legally, "insanity" means the inability to tell right from wrong. There is no evidence that people with schizophrenia have impaired moral judgment. Then why do some obey commands to break the law, or worse? Perhaps one need look no further than Genesis 22. When Abraham heard God's command to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, he did not hesitate to take the boy up the mountain to the place of sacrifice and raise the knife.
The Texas definition of insanity is a narrow one. Does it serve justice?
If one left their child with someone who is a drug addict but didn't seem in bad shape "today," then shot up, nodded off, and one of the kids set fire to something, and the house went up in flames, wouldn't the parent be any way liable for having left their child with someone like that?
As far as the death penalty, if people can kill her and wash everyone else's hands of the rest of it, mourning those children after the fact yet absolving anyone but the perpetrator from responsibility when they might have been saved by intervention, then I guess whatever makes the simple able to deal with the complexities of the human condition. I'm sure the dead will rest better knowing their mother will die for what she did. The victims always cry for justice, which to the simple is always clearly evident.
And lest anyone think I'm opposed to the death penalty, I'm not, not necessarily even in this case. I think death in her case would be a mercy killing.
I don't know about the Texas system, but in PA and NY I do know that psychological help is available within prisons.
I don't think leaving kids with someone who's attempted suicide previously or had suicidal ideation is necessarily abuse. Obviously, it depends on the person's mental state at the time the kids are left in their care.
If you argue that leaving kids with someone who has previously attempted suicide is abuse (presumably on the grounds that they might actually commit suicide while the kids are in his/her care) you might just as well make the argument that leaving kids in the care of anyone who has a life-threatening medical condition is abuse (on the grounds that they might die whilst the kids are in their care).
Without having the benefit of hearing the evidence, it appears to me that she was incapable of resisting whatever it was that caused her to kill her kids. Therefore, she was ill, not morally culpable.
Do you think that if your country had as high of a violent crime rate as the US does that there would be a push for the death penalty if only as an economical way of dealing with prison over population?
I have seen estimates that puts fully 5% of our population in prison...I don't know if that excludes children or not, I also don't know if this is an accurate figure, if someone knows better please speak up.
Wonks...yes, she was very ill and someone should be liable...doesn't her husband have some liablity for the death of his children when he knew how she was, didn't continue mental heath treatments, and basically neglected his childrens' well being each day?
It seems it was post partum psychosis....doctors had told the husband of her problems...but he chose to ignore them. I think neither of them should have been able to be with those children...too bad someone didn't intervene.
I think it's a little more complex than that...this woman had been diagnosed with severe mental illness, was not getting treatment, was not functional and had obvious outward signs of an active mental illness that did seem (from what i know) aggrevated by the household situation...
this is different from someone who is currently in treatment and/or medicated for mental illness and is functioning. It's the functioning part that differentiates...
If I knew someone with Andrea Yates background, would I have left my kid with her? No way!
Abs, that is an out and out falsehood.
Also, she did not have PPP, which is babbling out of your gourd insanity. She was not diagnosed with it, nor is there any evidence that she had it. She would not have been able to call the cops; she wouldn't even have known she'd killed the kids.
But in any event, you just said someone who had tried to kill herself or was extremely depressed. So I ask again--should a mother with PPD be prevented from being alone with her child?
someone should be liable
Someone is. Her name is Andrea Yates. Don't cast about looking for someone to blame it on.
Do you people actually read before you blather?
This is all completely untrue. Read up.
I have been reading up, obviously not the same things you have been reading so could you please point me to some better sources?
Just so we're clear, I don't think she was too crazy to be responsible for her actions, but I do think she was crazy enough that her husband should have noticed.
And, as I think about it, if a wife, with children was hospitalized, on various drugs, et al, how in h ell wouldn't the husband know about it.
I've seen ppp and what's amazing what people suffering from psychosis can and can't do.
I just said the mother was liable, but there is another parent as well. She killed her children all right, but the dad allowed those kids to be there everyday. even though he knew she was in "very bad shape."
And everyone knows there are degrees of depression, postpartum or otherwise, and that severe mental illness of any sort can lead to psychosis, which is also not the same as total removal from reality.
She was seeing a psychiatrist regularly. She had been on Haldol and was tapering off. She was on other medications. Her husband was an active participant in her care.
Also, Yates' entire supposed rationale for killing her kids could very easily be a concoction. None of it was mentioned in the original calls to 911 or the police interview, and she only came up with it after seeing shrinks a few times. She was calm and oriented when she killed her kids, when the cops came, when she told her husband what she'd done, and when she interviewed with the police.
I'm not insisting that it is, but it's a bit silly to deny the possibility.
As for PPP, postpartum psychosis requires that the person have lost touch with reality completely, which would leave out calling the cops. She would have been babbling madly when found. It occurs within 2-4 weeks after birth.
I say string him up.
Instead, why don't you give it another shot.
On second thought, don't bother.
Abs and Betty had bleated out more than one comment that was factually incorrect. Namely, that she wasn't under medical care, that her husband was ignoring her problems or doctors advice, that she wasn't getting treatment, and a host of other wailings that have no nodding acquaintance with reality.
I've pretty much done whatever battling I'm going to do with the various mouthbreathers who want to spend time blaming the husband. I only object when they make statements that are untrue. It's easy enough to keep the banalities within the range of facts.
I have seen estimates that puts fully 5% of our population in prison...I don't know if that excludes children or not, I also don't know if this is an accurate figure, if someone knows better please speak up.
Actually, it's fewer than 1%.
See us at www.muttonbone.com
Funny, I thought most of the bleating and wailing was coming from elsewhere than Absensia and Betty.
To try to keep it very simple, one can blame someone for negligence and it isn't the same as blaming someone for the murders that their negligence may have helped allow to happen. I haven't even argued that he should be charged with anything legally.
It's all nice and neat (and simple) to deal with everything after the fact of five dead children--convict the mother, end of story--rather than trying to look at what might be done to prevent at least some such tragedies. If that's all it's about, then you might as well just watch the created bad guys get their just deserts on WWF. It serves as good a purpose as cheering after the mother's been convicted.
Alrightythen.
As for PPP, postpartum psychosis requires that the person have lost touch with reality completely, which would leave out calling the cops. She would have been babbling madly when found. It occurs within 2-4 weeks after birth.
Deeply disturbed, psychotic individuals do not necessarily "babble madly". It's perfectly possible to have lucid conversations with a psychotic individual, as long as the subject of their psychosis is not broached. The idea that people with mental illnesses babble incoherently all the time is just an example of an ill-informed stereotype.
Postpartum psychosis does typically appear within 2 to 4 weeks of birth, but not necessarily. It can occur weeks later.
I'm not sure how to calculate the % of adult population in prison as I believe given juvenile laws, some offenders are treated as adults though may be less than 18.
thanks for the link...I thought the figure was high.
But since your stated goal earlier in the day in the Cafe was to do just such battle, I'm sure you went to bed well satisfied last night.
No, it doesn't mean I'm not speaking to you. It means you haven't said anything on the Yates subject that is worth responding to. Your last post was again a restatement, and again has nothing to do with what I was addressing with Abs and Betty. Namely--now, try to track--they made statements that were incorrect. I corrected them. They were also bleating and wailing, but I am done correcting that particular gang. My only objection was that they were doing so incorrectly.
Nothing you said had anything remotely to do with that, and since it also didn't interest me, I wasn't responding.
Snow,
I understand that is true about psychotic individuals in general. It is not true of PPP, where a distinctive characteristic is their behavior.
CalGal:
No one here seems to want to whine about Andrea Yates' verdict, which is very unsatisfying. I want some bleeders to kick around.
Remember, I actually knew what I'd said when I made the post to you.
Anyone who feels that Andrea Yates should have been found legally insane and thus not guilty, I'm game. Anyone who wants to moralize about Rusty, bleah.
See, Judith, some people actually and specifically say what they mean. You might want to try it some time.
I knew you'd try to change the focus...deja vu, all over again. You came in ready to rumble, regardless of what the "bleeders" positions were.
I also was talking about the Rant, not the Mote, for a reason. At the Rant--better yet, at TT--there are people who honestly think that poor Andrea is just acting out the anger that all women feel, that we should understand her, and realize how close we all are to the brink she fell over.
Beating those people up is a job I never tire of. But I am bored with those who want to yap about the husband, as if there is anything approaching equivalency. It's disgusting and irresponsible to mention him, but I've already said that.
So Judith, do shut up about it. You were wrong; you misunderstood, and worst of all, you are boring the hell out of me. I've been polite, because I don't want to listen to you whine. But enough. Go away, find something else to flitter on about.
Enjoy your day to the best of your ability.
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Baaaaaaaaaaa.
Postpartum Psychosis (PPP) is the most severe and, fortunately, the rarest postpartum disorder. It occurs in about 1 out of 1000 women who give birth. Onset is sudden and usually occurs within the first 2-3 weeks. Symptoms of PPP are very exaggerated and involve a loss of touch with reality. Symptoms may include:
- Hallucinations
- Delusions (usually religious)
- Severe insomnia
- Extreme anxiety & agitation
-Suicidal or homicidal thoughts
- Bizarre feelings & behavior
Emphasis mine.
Yates onset certainly wasn't sudden, certainly wasn't within the first two-three weeks, and when she committed the acts she was not exhibiting extreme symptoms--in fact, there is no documentation that she was exhibiting any of these symptoms (except suicidal ones) before she was arrested. All explanations come after the fact.
PPP does not mean a person is permanently psychotic, so definitions of that particular disorder don't apply.
The fact that various mental hygiene professionals were seemingly unable to come up with a conclusive and/or consistent diagnosis is hardly Russell Yates' fault. With the exception of making the decision to have another child after being told by one (and only one mind you) of the professionals Andrea was seeing, the evidence points to Russell having done everything he was told to do by the Pros.
But I am not willing to say Russell is morally or legally culpable for the murders by having marital relationships with his wife. I have heard no evidence that he forcibly raped her, so we are left assuming that she was a willing participant in the act. Given her own medical education we can also assume that she knew where babies came from. Add on top of that the evidence that Andrea was not telling either her husband or her physicians that she was having violent thoughts regarding the children and I am again left bemused by the desire of some to accuse Russell of nefarious and/or abusive behavior for having sex with his wife.
Finally the child neglect perpetrated by Russell Yates. Its easily taken care of by pointing out a fact that keeps getting lost in the shuffle. Russell Yates had his mother coming to the house to help Andrea care for the kids and the house. Andrea apparently planned the murders to occur in the 30 minutes between her husband leaving for work and her MIL arriving to help.
Yates was described as being agitated, picking at her scalp and hair, not eating and being suicidal prior to the killings.
Even if true--since few of these were reported before the killings--so what? You're implying that these behaviors can only be PPP? No, of course not. The only reason you're waving the PPP card is because you can link it to her birth. But you can't legitimately link it to her birth, because it is far outside the window. Not even close.
Yates did have an earlier outbreak of postpartum depression and yes, the rate of recurrence is very high in subsequent pregnancies. Also so what? There is no known link between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis--ie, a woman at risk for ppd is not considered more at risk for ppp. That doesn't mean it isn't possible, but you can't point to one as a link to the other.
Besides, Jones, for all your bitching at me, you're the one diagnosing her. For all the shrinks who've seen her, I don't believe anyone has mentioned PPP.
vw--no, it's fahrfegnugen.
No, it is 4 weeks by DSM IV, not two not three. You can count to 4?
"Yates was described as being agitated, picking at her scalp and hair, not eating and being suicidal prior to the killings."
Even if true--since few of these were reported before the killings--so what? You're implying that these behaviors can only be PPP? No, of course not. The only reason you're waving the PPP card is because you can link it to her birth. But you can't legitimately link it to her birth, because it is far outside the window. Not even close.
Yates did have an earlier outbreak of postpartum depression and yes, the rate of recurrence is very high in subsequent pregnancies. Also so what? There is no known link between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis--ie, a woman at risk for ppd is not considered more at risk for ppp. That doesn't mean it isn't possible, but you can't point to one as a link to the other.
Horseshit. Give a journal cite for the proposition that there is no link between postpartum psychosis and postpartum depression. Medical, psychological, anything in the field-
Secondly patients with severe depression sometimes decompensate into depression with psychotic features in subsequent episodes. There isn't some distinct etiology between mood disorders and psychosis. Psychosis is mental state that can have a number of different etiologies, just as pneumonia can be caused by a variety of agents- bacterial, viral etc.
More barbarians, dumb hicks, yahoo stuff.
Of course, it takes the smart set to be able to make a legal judgment on someone's capacity. So smart that they need not even attend trial. They need only know someone named Mary who thought she lived on a metal planet.
Maybe we should just ban the jury system in poor, Southern states?
We could get people who play the Supreme Court on "First Monday" to undertake the role.
(Will someone start feeling sorry for the poor guy who gassed 5 of his kids to death, and blame his wife in part? Or the bastard who abducted Danielle van Dam - perhaps he just couldn't help himself. Or that guy who threw his family in the ocean and ran off to Mexico?)
thanks for that article...it reminds me of some things I forget.
Besides, Jones, for all your bitching at me, you're the one diagnosing her. For all the shrinks who've seen her, I don't believe anyone has mentioned PPP.
"A medical chart note on Aug. 18, 1999, the day Starbranch gave the advice, reads:
"Apparently patient and husband plan to have as many babies as nature will allow!" the psychiatrist wrote. "This will surely guarantee future psychotic depression."
Why would a psychiatrist, writing in 1999, talk about future psychotic depression in connection with childbirth, if the woman hadn't already had at least one psychotic episode?
Dietz said Yates kept thoughts about killing her children a secret because she feared she would be stopped.
"Ordinarily when someone keeps a criminal plan secret they do it because it's wrong," he said.
On the videotaped interview with Yates, Dietz asked her why Satan would want her to do something that would save her children from Hell's fires. She said the deaths would result in her being condemned.
"You saw it as a sin you were going to commit?" Dietz asked Yates during the Nov. 7 interview.
"Yes," she replied.
"Did you struggle against doing it?" the psychiatrist asked.
"No," Yates told him.
Dietz said Yates became confused and sometimes changed her story during the interview. He thought the changes came because Yates was still depressed and likely suffers from schizophrenia.
Dietz said a note in Yates' medical records showed Dr. Mohammad Saeed told her husband, Russell, in April that she should not be left alone.
"When you have a mother who is this severely impaired, someone has to be with her at all times," Dietz said. "It isn't safe to leave her with the children."
Dietz said several things contributed to Yates' condition, including her refusal to take her medicine and her efforts to home-school her children inside a converted bus where the family lived in 1999.
I thought this might interest you on a few levels.
Homosexuality and the Catholic Church
To quote your quote in part:
".....Onset is sudden and usually occurs within the first 2-3 weeks. Symptoms of PPP are very exaggerated and involve a loss of touch with reality. Symptoms may include: ......"
Notice it says onset is sudden and USUALLY occurs within 2-3 weeks...it does not say, as you seem to want it to, that it ONLY occurs within 2-3 weeks.
Likewise, it says symptoms MAY, not always, include: and so one does not have to be hallucinal or totally out of touch with reality at all times.
Even your cited material is not as adamant as are you. Jones raised the pertinent issues and events and hit the nail on the head!
In determining the sentence, jurors are not asked to directly state, "She should spend her life in prison," or "She should die by lethal injection."
Rather, they are asked to render an opinion on two issues. For Yates to get a death sentence, the jury must agree unanimously on both questions.
The first issue is "future dangerousness" -- whether it's likely the defendant would commit future violent crimes that would constitute a continuing threat to society.
If 10 of the 12 jurors say she does not pose a future danger, she is automatically sentenced to life in prison, according to Texas law.
If all jurors say Yates is likely to commit future violent crimes, then they move on to the second issue, "mitigating circumstances."
On this issue, jurors are asked to consider all the evidence -- including the circumstances of the offense, the defendant's character and background as well as the defendant's personal moral culpability -- and then decide if there is anything that reduces the defendant's moral blameworthiness.
Under Texas criminal procedures, the jurors need not agree on which piece of evidence constitutes a mitigating circumstance.
If jurors agree unanimously that there is no evidence to warrant sparing her life, she is sentenced to death.
If, however, 10 agree that there is at least one mitigating circumstance, she is sentenced to life in prison. In that case, she would become eligible for parole after serving 40 years. At that time, Yates would be 77 years old.
I can't see them getting beyond "future danger".
As for her diagnosis, as Snow already pointed out, you can have all the listed symptoms of psychosis, whatever its cause, and still have some amount of function and be aware of many aspects of reality.
My money's still on them "putting her down" like a mad dog.
Yates immediately called 911.
It seems a stroke of good fortune that her sanity/ability to know that wrong was just done was restored at the exact moment her premeditated murders were completed.
Perhaps jurors don't need 11 psychiatrists, physicians and mental health experts to testify on that relatively elemental fact.
Even stupid morons from Texas.
Stupid, barbaric morons from Texas.
I have a longstanding friend who has been in and out of mental hospitals and adult residential care facilities who is a very bright and rational person one day and the next does the most bizarre things out of fear that someone is trying to harm her or her brother. To escape harm for herself she has been known to go to the airport without a ticket or destination and take the first flight to anywhere only to find when she gets there that she spies someone on a telephone pole about to zap her with harmful rays; she has spent the night under our dining room table covered with aluminum foil to protect herself from radiation; she has cut all electrical connections to her apartment; she has unplugged our refrigerator many times; she has taken food from children's plates on the theory that the person who is trying to harm her wouldn't poison a child, etc, etc. At other times she has halucinations that someone is killing her brother and cutting him up into little pieces in his basement or in a nearby cemetery. She has been convicted of false reports to the police more than once that her brother is being or has been murdered. Since her convictions, instead of calling the police she calls my wife or me in the middle of the night to ask us to drive to where ever the voices have told her that her brother is being attacked.
I have discussed the above with her many times, occasionally trying with zero success, of course, to rationalize away her delusions.
Now, if Andrea Yates' symptoms were similar to those of my friend, I can easily see how she might have killed without the slightest ability to control her actions. [However, my friend has never shown any inclination to harm anyone else, only to escape harm to herself.]
She didn't pee on the fern.
She called 911. And Jones, some people who feel remorse call 911 after committing a crime. People who know something bad just happened call 911.
If her psychosis led her to believe that her children would be better off dead, why is she calling 911?
They're better off.
Or, right as the last gasp was emitted, she suddenly snapped sane.
Those are your choices.
And that is why those drooling fools to whom you comfortably condescend needed a mere 4 hours. Why, those dumb crackers asked for 1) the law and 2) the 911 call.
How dare they? Smart people would have relied on 11 differing experts.
How is that again? Just a country bumpkin here, I thought that this was a hard question, but I keep getting lost in how easy it is for Julius and the jury.
How many times do you have to be told that psychotics do not necessarily lose all touch with reality?
Yes she knew she was killing her kids. Yes it was premeditated. Go ahead and execute her for knowing she was doing wrong according to TX law on the insanity defense, but be aware that no one--not the prosecution, even--is arguing that she wasn't severely mentally ill.
They may not realize that she'd be 77 before she could hit the street, and that any pregnancy would be in prison and the child protected by the guards, until placed in other's care.
Any pregnancy? Did you say, "any pregnancy"?
Gosh. If any juror actually thought that she might get pregnant again under any circumstances, I sure as hell hope they'd vote to execute. That's pretty disgusting.
You want her alive to have another baby for sport, have at it. You want to find assurance in experts (the same experts who 25 years ago called homosexuality a disease), feel free.
Me: She acted rationally and not in accordance with being psychotic
Arky: That's the thing about psychotics. They act rationally and then wacky and then rationally and then wacky. It is just so intricate. Of course she was insane!!! Classic psychotic behavior, making you think they are sane and all
Priceless.
Adios.
Except for the homosexuals (so said the experts).
He he he he.
If you don't know that psychotic individuals can even carry on conversations, then you're too ignorant of the subject to play anyway, so adios to you too.
I'm assuming you're joking. You aren't joking?
Some employers fire people for being absent or late due to illnes or their car being hit by a train on the way to work, but they don't get far if the cases get to an arbitrator. Absence due to circumstances beyond the employee's control simply is not deemed to be misconduct.
The fact that you can't see any possible complexity in this case is evidence only of your ignorance, and you are mistaken if you think that I am going to be cowed by your blather into apologizing for not supporting a jury which shares your ignorance, no matter how you crow about stereotyping southern rednecks. You're preaching to the wrong guy here. I live in "fly over country" you coastal smartass, and we expect that you have some vague idea of what the hell you are talking about before you offer your opinion. So keep it up in the air Shorty, cause if you land we'll punch you in the snoot.
It was Jones who theorized a pregnancy, not me.
And Bundy said he was addicted to porn.
And Dahmer pled insanity, but as the below shows, he was clearly sane:
He butchered his victims in secret for more than three years, turning his apartment into a grisly slaughterhouse filled with human heads and stripped flesh. He even took photographs of their corpses so he could later look back and relive the experience of murder.
He found teenagers and young men at bus stops, bars and the streets. He lured them to his apartment by promising drinks, pornographic videos and even money to some in exchange for sex.
Once inside his apartment, he would slip a potent sedative into their drinks, strangle them and then dismember their bodies with an electric saw.
On occasion, he ate some of their flesh.
But, Dahmer knew the world was not metal, so he's sane too.
You may as well play rock, scissors, paper.
She believed that she was serving a greater good by killing the kids (they weren't developing properly, she was a bad mother and it was her fault so she deserved to be punished).
Yep, she knew what she was doing so let's string her up, after all, that's what she was asking for.
So we give all sex offenders a walk, right?
And lots of pedophiles think the kids really want to have sex with them. Lots of serial killers really think that women are evil whores sent to lure them from righteousness.
Does that person know that she did wrong? Yes.
Does knowing that she did wrong mean that she was not insane? Not necessarily.
It's a cheap and easy out to claim that knowledge of right and wrong inexorably points to sanity. Perhaps AY was able to overcome the voices in her head, and perhaps she wasn't. What I do know that the Texas definition of insanity is a sham.
I am by nature a physical coward, but try as I may, I just can't get too worked up over a punch in the snoot.
I do laugh at your homespun regionalism. You truly are a root hog, which gives you even less basis to condescend to Texans - something you have done with regularity.
But they say the same psychology is why poor whites denigrated blacks.
Everybody's looking for someone lower on the totem pole.
Not that you're capable of being educated, but sicko and insane are not the same thing.
Are you saying otherwise?
Well, the Devil makes us all do it.
I suppose I'm insane with lust.
But Maria, if a Ted Bundy said he was killing women because God commanded it, would he be declared insane?
You're correct that Texas insanity law is a sham. Instead of mucking in the hobbyist's game of insanity versus sicko etcetera, etcetera, we should follow the lead of Montana, Idaho and Utah
In keeping with your wishes:
Any pregnancy? Did you say, "any pregnancy"?
Gosh. If any juror actually thought that she might get pregnant again under any circumstances, I sure as hell hope they'd vote to execute. That's pretty disgusting.
This is what brought on my little joke about conjugal visits.
There is a meaningful distinction between an ordinary criminal and someone who is insane. There are degrees of mental illness. If a sex offender is insane, he should go to a mental hospital. If not he should go to jail.
Yes. I was responding to Jones' theoretical that she might get pregnant while in prison.
My 22343 goes to JC's post. Should have refreshed.
It's not the claiming of irresistible compulsions that determines whether they are irresistible, or whether the person claiming so is insane.
I wasn't saying it was part of insanity. I was just responding to Wonkers post.
If I kill my husband for profit and am now a millionaire, I wouldn't ever be a danger to the community again.
Insanity is as it is legally defined, and the definition varies based on the views of state legislatures (and it is not a defense in some jurisdictions). As with the Yates case and this thread, you get 11 people offering competing concepts on what is a largely unknowable thing.
Thus, Bundy is sane and Yates is insane.
A sham in and of itself.
You got five dead kids, a woman premeditated, said "I did it" and then chose to call 911.
Maybe her world is metal.
But the difference between her and Bundy is probably a hair.
Now,
Vamanos.
I thought that was Stephen Sondheim.
Pschotics, on the other hand, don't generally appreciate the reality of what they are doing, or do not accurately grasp reality completely enough or clearly enough to make a moral judgement.
They make decisions that are irrational, their thinking is so convoluted that it often doesn't make sense even within the context of the particular hallucinations they experience. The delusions are often not wholly consistent with one another. Yates seems to fit. She said in the original confession that she deserves to be punished because she did a bad thing- killing her children. Yet, she also believes she killed her children because it was a good thing for them, it saved them from Satan. She is wholly convinced of two mutually exclusive ideas at the same time, that it was noble to protect the children from damnation that would have come from her, being marked with the sign of Satan, and that she should be eternally damned for saving them.
This is evidence she understood the moral consequences of her actions?
History suggests that you may well still be a danger to the community.
Anyway, you did something very wrong and should be punished for it unless you were insane.
Hahahahaha.
Perhaps what's needed is a national definition of insanity, abolishing NGI in exchange for GEI (guilty except for insanity), guaranteeing mandatory sentencing along with treatment. In my world, even if treatment were to be successful, they'd still have to go back to the general prison population and serve out the balance of their term.
I am quite aware of the difference between a psychotic and a sociopath. What you don't seem to understand is that your tale of Andrea as psychotic isn't flying. Didn't fly with the jury, either.
Incidentally, not all sociopaths are killers. Some killers are sociopaths. But you'll be hard pressed to convince anyone that the urge to kill for no reason at all except pleasure isn't just a little bit wacky.
I've known precisely what constitutes a sociopath for many years now, and am well aware that not all are killers. Some are used car salesmen, some are politicians, you can find mild versions in every field.
State's shrink testimony--where does he say she was psychotic? He says that he can find no evidence that she hallucinated, or that she was unaware of what she was doing.
Some are used car salesmen, some are politicians, you can find mild versions in every field.
Precisely. So you have to figure that the difference between a sociopath who kills for fun (not profit) and one who doesn't is that, well, one's just a little wack. So let's say they are insane, too.
Let's not, since there's no clinical basis for it.
And as someone pointed out way up thread, (Ase, I think) the vast majority of insane people don't kill or harm anyone, so the difference between one sociopath and another that would make one insane and one not wouldn't be the killing.
This conversation is boring as hell, though. I'm through trying to educate people who are idiots about mental illness yet think they can pontificate on it credibly.
I'd rather talk about Rusty Yates.
Sure there is. As much as there is for Andrea Yates. It's just that no one much cares.
I think the idea that people still think of children as women's property accounts for much of the desire to see her as a victim, rather than a monster. And no, I'm not talking about you, specifically. I can't really say I've read any post of yours unless it seemed to be responding to me. Just to pre-empt the inevitable rejoinder.
In any event, Judith, I'm sure no one you know thinks consciously (biting my tongue) that children are women's property.
Nonetheless, it is the model that best explains the rush to excuse them. There was a Slate piece linked in you might want to read before you continue to maunder about in literalism.
...just THAT.
Pontificus Maximus.
Boring.
No, I don't see Yates as a victim per se, but I know the situation is not as simple as people would like to paint it (victim or monster? Usually people who only see two options are very limited in their capacity to understand or think very deeply), and I see the children as victims of more than her. I also know that the inability and unwillingness of people to understand and deal with severe clinical mental illnesses cause a lot of unnecessary suffering, much of which doesn't result in death, and so isn't noticed by the general public.
Maria,
I don't disagree, but again, that's true of Gacy and Bundy, and yet they're dead. And they were studied, too.
Yes, Bundy and Gacy were studied, but not enough, and they certainly didn't receive much treatment, if any, because they were sentenced to death. I'm not a death penalty advocate and believe that every life can be of some utility.
I oppose the death penalty. But as long as it is around, I believe it should be used consistently. I think it should have been used on Susan Smith, and I think it should be used on Andrea Yates.
Son Sues Woman Who Let His Dad Die
Life in prison.
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Is anyone else having really slow hookups? Usually, once that starts, we get an outage or at least that's been my experience.
It was a dumb joke, anyhow...
I'm glad she got life. It'll give her a nice long time to think about what she did.
The IC refers not to the physical creation of the embryo, which occurred in the usual way, but the imbuement of the soul. Her soul was delivered free of the stain of original sin through the gift of sanctifying grace.
Take that Sister Rose Theresa, I WAS paying attention in Doctrinal Studies.
Wonder if he has a history of depression, and why didn't anyone around him know he posed a danger?
Dachshund survives after bald eagle carries it off
Wiener Dog power!
One fart from my doxie, though, and that bird would drop her post haste.
Poor doggie. I bet he has bad bird dreams.
I hope Bob doesn't get any ideas if he hears about this story.
True, btw:
A friend's father-in-law was widowed and dating a woman who despised his parrot. One day while he was working and she was at his house the bird managed to escape through a perfectly square hole he pecked in his cage.
Amazing, huh?
And I'm sure my husband has similar thoughts about my cat.
The farmer next to where I work has a new baby lamb, with five more pregnant ewes lining up. I've stopped by to see it everyday since it was born Tuesday night. For what it is worth, mother ewes stamp their feet and snort to protect their young. I just looked down from the side of the pen. Newborn lambs are skinny with wrinkled skin and big ears.
What's $800 in veterinary bills for such a famous pet? I paid that much once to get a dumpster cat with kidney problems nursed back to health. But I'll bet that's a dachshund which will keep one eye to the sky after this.
Lambs are so adorable. Some of my kids raise lambs for 4-H, and I ask them how they can turn around and sell those cute little things to be cutlets after they groom them for weeks to win ribbons at the fair. I guess all farm animals should have a Charlotte to help them out when fair season rolls around.
What's $800 in veterinary bills for such a famous pet? I paid that much once to get a dumpster cat with kidney problems nursed back to health. But I'll bet that's a dachshund which will keep one eye to the sky after this.
Don't know if I want to be going outside, though, come to think of it.
'I, Arkymalarky, Kiled a Bar with Bowie Knife at this spot (date)'
A story about a father killing his children is a story of evil; shocking, but of temporary public interest. A story about a mother killing her children is a story about women and the ills female flesh is heir to; shocking, plus a matter of grave concern to men and women everywhere.
Of course the most heinous family crime committed in AR was by the man who killed his wife and I think 8 or 9 children, plus three or four from his work. He was executed after refusing appeals. He got a lot of press here, but I don't remember him getting much national attention. Maybe he did and I've just forgotten.
What I find of more interest in the women/men coverage is people like Susan Smith getting so much more press attention than someone like the man in the story above.
Yates was big because of that reason, along with cable's insatiable need to find something to fight about, the knee-jerk reaction of modern feminism to carve out yet another reason for empathy for the plight of any woman (even the most dastardly), the emergence of alleged assuredness in the study of mental illness/culpability (11 experts in the Yates trial alone), general anti-Texas/anti-death penalty/anti-criminal justice attitudes of the establishment media, overlawyering, and good old- fashioned tabloidism, with a healthy coating of regional condescension, resulting in the freakish occurrence of Ohioans and Arkansans finally finding folks to whom they can feel superior, if ever so slightly, and for only so long. (g).
I agree with you in the main, but I happen to know more about mental illness than some people here and am more interested in that aspect than her gender. Many mental illnesses are exacerbated by changes that occur with pregnancy and childbirth, and it sounds like she was having more chronic problems than post-partum illness, though as many babies as she had it would be somewhat hard to tell. Her oldest was 7 and she was 37, and I find it interesting that she didn't have the first until she was 30.
I'm too far removed from the social strata games played in American Suburbia to feel superior or inferior to anyone, regionally or otherwise. It's a wonderfully free feeling, I must say. (GGGG)
BTW, what did you think of the husband's remarks yesterday?
I haven't hear many of her husband's remarks, other than the cringe-inducing ones about his wife loving their children and being a good mother. I suppose I'll wait for the book.
Have a good Saturday.
I don't care where it came from, I love corned beef and cabbage (especially the sandwiches that come after).
LONDON (Reuters) - Older men are better lovers...
...and have fewer impotence problems than their younger counterparts, with the "male menopause" a myth pedaled by drug companies to sell their products, according to a British psychologist.
DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) -- An 80-year-old passenger was pronounced dead at the end of an airline flight, and authorities say it is possible he had already died when he was taken on board in his wheelchair.
James Walsh was found dead Saturday after arriving at Des Moines International Airport on the America West Express flight from Phoenix. He had a history of heart and kidney-related problems.
A report by the Polk County medical examiner's office said members of the flight crew reported that he looked ``kind of stiff'' and didn't move during the trip.
LONDON (AP)---The government had promised beer drinkers a full pint of ale, but it announced Monday that 95 percent was the best it could do.
Pubs that serve pints less than 95 percent full could face prosecution, the government said. The current minimum is 90 percent.
The foam can take up a lot of room in the glass, depending on the skill of the bartender.
"Pulling a pint is not a precise science but at the moment the worst offenders are consistently giving consumers a short measure," said Trade Secretary Patricia Hewitt said. "This change will give consumers better value for their money."
She said the new measure would put 60 million pints of beer into British bellies each year, or about four pints per drinker.
The pint is one of the great totems of British life, and the nation won an exception for the pint measure from the European Union's requirement for metric measures.
BERLIN (Reuters) - A German man who sawed down a tree in his garden accidentally killed his wife when the tree fell on her, a newspaper reported on Monday.
The man, 66, decided to cut down the birch to protect passers-by because it had become unstable after a recent storm, Bild daily said.
His wife, 66, was standing in the street to warn passing cars when the tree crashed down on her head. She died later in hospital.
LIVINGSTON, Texas (Reuters) - A one-legged inmate set to be executed Thursday has requested an artificial leg so he can walk to the death chamber, but Texas prison officials said Tuesday he would not get it.
Rodolfo Hernandez, 52, asked for the leg so he could "walk like a man" to his death by lethal injection in a state prison in Huntsville, Texas.
"I came in with two legs, I want to go out with two legs," said Hernandez, who was condemned to die for killing an illegal immigrant from Mexico during a 1985 robbery in New Braunfels, Texas.
Hernandez lost the leg to diabetes while in prison.
An occupational brain injury or something but I predict that the dog mauling jury has returned guilty counts on the four lesser charges, is hung on the final, 2d degree murder count and will acquit or hang on that one.
The jury has reached verdicts on four of the five charges in the fatal dog-mauling case.
The panel will continue deliberations on the final count Thursday at 9am. When they've reached a verdict on all five charges, the decision will be read to the court.
Defendants Marjorie Knoller and Robert Noel are each facing one count of involuntary manslaughter and one count of keeping a mischievous dog. Knoller is facing an additional count of second-degree murder, because she was with the dogs in the hallway when Diane Whipple was mauled to death. Knoller could face 15 years in prison if convicted.
Now where's the Smirking Chimp?
This wasn't the result the Justice Department expected when it ordered the state to study driving habits by race.
The study used specially designed radar gun cameras, which are used to photograph the license plates of speeders and whose photos are accepted as evidence in many courts around the country, to capture images of drivers in a variety of locations on the turnpike. The study defined speeding as exceeding the speed limit by 15 miles per hour, and officers are instructed to focus on the most egregious speeders.
Researchers then showed the photos of 38,747 drivers to teams of three evaluators who tried to determine each driver's race, without knowing whether the driver had sped or not. At least two evaluators were able to agree on the race of 26,334 of the drivers photographed, and an analysis of those motorists found that the disparity between white and black drivers widened at higher speeds.
In the southern segment of the turnpike, where the speed limit is 65 m.p.h., 2.7 percent of black drivers were speeders, compared with 1.4 percent of white drivers. Among drivers going faster than 90 m.p.h., the disparity was even greater.
By contrast, blacks were no more likely to speed than whites when the limit was 55 m.p.h. In those geographical segments of the turnpike, 13.1 percent of black drivers were speeders, compared with 13.5 percent of white drivers.
Those results startled officials in the state attorney general's office, who had assumed that the radar study would bolster their case that profiling was widespread. Instead, the study concluded that blacks make up 16 percent of the drivers on the turnpike and 25 percent of the speeders in the 65 m.p.h. zones, where complaints of profiling have been most common.
great article, btw, CG.
This had to have been a hit with the jurors.
Sentencing is in 30 days.
I was going toask you about Ruiz's antics, Julius. What on earth was she thinking? Has grandstanding like that ever really worked?
Aren't the defendants both lawyers as well, though? If anyone is in a position to know that their counsel was ineffective or even detrimental to their case, certainly they were. How in the world are they going to make that fly on appeal?
I expect it will stand, but California is very criminal defendant friendly. It would damn sure stand in many other states, where you can fall asleep and still be effective.
If Ruiz had been asleep, she may have been more effective.
Frankly, I've never heard of anything so incompetent in closing as her remarks on gays.
Throughout her testimony, she made frequent eye contact with jurors.
"You knew Bane was more dangerous than a Chihuahua?" Hammer asked.
"Maybe," Knoller responded.
Maybe = homicidal liar to your average juror.
Having Knoller testify before the grand jury and at trial was asinine as well. See Mike tyson for the last criminal defendant to testify before a grand jury.
You take the Fifth. Always.
Noel, owner of the dogs, claims that his wife was trying to protect Whipple from the dogs
"I was contacted by an investigator who works dog cases, and I was also contacted by a professional animal trainer, who made the suggestion that those two things should be looked at from a forensics standpoint to see if that was a possibility," Noel said.
"My suggestion ... that a check be made for that was simply to make sure that that base was covered. It was not to suggest in any way that Ms. Whipple was improperly using steroids, or had in fact used any such perfume."
San Francisco Police rejected the suggestion.
"I wear after-shave lotion. I'm sure most women wear perfumes," said Lt. Henry Hunter. "Just because we wear after-shave lotion or perfume, does that mean we should be eaten by a dog?"
This was after her husband's press conference. Press conferences and letters to prosecutors. Hoo boy.
I'm not sure if they bagged Nedra Ruiz before or after these beauts, but I suspect it was after, because given the idiotic moves of the defendants, maybe most reputable defense attorneys passed.
again or your next objection will be made from the holding cell behind you."
Clearly, Nedra did not have Judge Ito.
Nedra Ruiz, Knoller's lawyer, furiously battled such slurs and maintained that the only sex-related incident with the dogs, Bane and Hera, happened when the animals ran into Knoller and Noel's bedroom while they were having sex. It was probably that pheromone thing again. Ruiz dismissed the "boundary-blurring" stuff as "specious filth", albeit adding prudently: "Your honour, there is no sex in this case, in terms of the touchy-feely stuff that that word normally invokes."
This careful phraseology might be Ruiz's way of coping with what an AP story describes as letters from the couple to Schneider detailing sexual activity among Noel, Knoller and Bane, along with photos of a naked Knoller. The defense has managed to get these letters and photographs suppressed. One rumor suggests Knoller was giving Bane a blowjob. It's all more sedately put in the late J.R. Ackerley's book My Dog Tulip, bible of British pooch lovers and now a big hit over here.
The defense has scheduled 35 character witnesses, many of them eager to attest to the late Bane's gentle disposition, and is also trying to suppress non-sex related material such as photographs of Bane's teeth. As defense counsel Hotchkiss put it in a court filing. "All large dogs have big teeth and are capable of killing a human. Malice cannot be implied by mere possession of a large dog."
The prosecutor in the case is gay. She seriously thought she could count on the jury being as homophobic as the Koellers.
BIG mistake.
This is a dog that if it isn't gentle you'd better put it down immediately because it's just too big to deal with if it gets aggressive.
i thought the tax collector got that...damn
anyway WOOF WOOF
Los Angeles -- A Los Angeles jury found Marjorie Knoller and her husband, Robert Noel, guilty of all charges yesterday in the dog-mauling death of Diane Whipple in San Francisco.
Knoller was convicted of second-degree murder and Noel was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Knoller was also found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. In addition, both were found guilty of keeping a mischievous dog that killed a person.
Her face crumpled, Knoller, 46, gasped as the verdicts were read. Noel, 60, showed no visible reaction.
Knoller faces 15 years to life in prison on the murder count, while her husband faces four years.
SFgate has a poll..what was Knoller's worst mistake....all of the above 72% but hiring nedra ruiz, my choice, came in 3d at 9%
Shit they should give her at least 2 years.
I only watched part of opening and closing but that was enuf.
The Dean of another local school, and former Chief PD, who can't say enough bad things about Ole Nedra said that ineffective counsel will be the chief grounds for appeal and refused to opine on the outcome...
- AP
Washington An unusually warm period a millennium ago may have been part of a natural planetary cycle, researchers say in a study of tree rings that scrutinizes the link between human activity and climate change.
The study, appearing Friday in the journal Science, analyzed ancient tree rings from 14 sites on three continents in the Northern Hemisphere.
It concluded that temperatures in an era known as the Medieval Warm Period about 800 to 1,000 years ago closely matched the warming trend of the 20th century.
In recent years, many climate scientists have said an unprecedented warming spell that began last century and continues is caused by the Greenhouse effect.
The Greenhouse effect is blamed on an increase in the atmosphere of gases, principally carbon dioxide, from the burning of fossil fuels, which trap heat just as do glass panes in a greenhouse.
The tree-ring study gives another perspective on Earth's natural cycles, said Edward Cook of the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y. Mr. Cook is co-author of the study with Jan Esper and Fritz Schweingruber of the Swiss Federal Research Institute.
Mr. Cook said the study shows the Earth to be "capable of rapid changes and long periods of above average warmth on its own without greenhouse warming.
"We don't use this as a refutation of greenhouse warming," said Mr. Cook. "But it does show that there are processes within the Earth's natural climate system that produce large changes that might be viewed as comparable to what we have seen in the 20th century."
"Greenhouse gases were not a factor back in the Medieval Warm Period," said Mr. Cook.
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, an international group, has predicted that the current warming trend will continue deep into the 21st century, with average temperatures rising by 1.5 and 5.5 degrees Celsius.
Based on this prediction, there have been international proposals for systematic reductions in the burning of fossil fuels. The proposal has been resisted by the United States.
Mr. Cook said data used in the climate change panel's calculation is based on a model that compared the preindustral age climate with the climate of the 20th century. The model did not include a Medieval Warm Period. Including data from that era could change the calculations, Mr. Cook said.
Keith Briffa and Timothy Osborn, climate scientists at the University of East Anglia in Britain, said the study by Mr. Cook and his colleagues "provides evidence for greater climate swings in the last 1,000 years than has yet been generally accepted."
Note that the IPCC did not include the Medieval Warm Period (or Little Ice Age) temperature trends because doing so would have largely negated scientific backing for the agenda to coerce the West to adopt the Kyoto Protocol.
Somebody's going to get killed by them real soon, and I'd really hate it to be you.
I'm probably more concerned about this dog's actions when I have visitors, particularly when they bring small children who will have the run of my property.
It's sort of strange - I was able to get on friendly terms with the German Shepherd and, to some extent, the Doberman Pinscher, and the collie is sort of friendly too, but mostly high strung like most collies I've seen but this presa canario/mastiff is another story entirely. Up to now, it always was truculent, trying to block my path on at least one occasion but has backed off when I approached (I never did), but last weekend, it swiped its jowls past my hand, leaving saliva on it and paced me as I ran in front of the neighbors' property, so it's definitely trying to establish its territorial dominance. The fact that it, running loose, totally ignored both its owners yelling at it to come, plus finding out that it looks almost identical and is the same size as the dog that killed the woman in SF is a bit too much.
That was ME you idiot!
Ya oughta see TD in shorts and tank top....
WOOF WOOF
The suspects are all local Black teens. None of the victims are Black.
The NPR piece talked about how the town's mayor - "a self-described liberal" - is grabbing the bull by the horns on this.
How, you ask?
Why, by having a series of town meetings on the causes and effects of classism - the Town -vs- Gown syndrome, so to speak, that lead these poor disadvantaged kids to engage in such heinous behavior.
NPR opines that "the racial angle cannot be ignored, but it needs to be examined in the light of....etc, etc, blabbedy-blah-blah-blah...."
This, despite the fact that at least one of the six suspects admitted to police that the attackers had looked for victims who "looked White".
Amazing.
Imagine for a minute that the situation was reversed.
Is that Jesse Jackson I hear marching down the Interstate on a mission to "heal"?
(None of the attackers has been charged with a hate crime, btw).
Haha. I tell the owner to take it easy on you, then, jex.
Ouch! The other three are often out running around adjacent properties. I'm not personally concerned, but maybe there's cause for worry for any little kids.
IAC, I just sent the owner a letter today warning him to keep the mastiff/presa canario (It's a dark brindle) under some sort of constraint since he clearly does not have verbal control over it. 
I love bunnies too but when will Sipowitz nail this chick? WASHINGTON - It'll cost an extra 3 cents to mail a letter in the United States starting this summer.
...
All that remains now is for the postal governing board to set the date, probably around June 30.
The decision gives the post office "breathing room" after it was strapped by the economic slowdown and costs related to anthrax-tainted mail, said Rate Commission Chairman George Omas.
"This decision will allow the Postal Service an immediate influx of revenue while holding rate increases to a reasonable percentage for postal customers," he said.
Omas called the agreement "the most unique of all the rate cases considered by the commission since its inception in 1970."
...
In addition to the 37-cent rate for the first ounce of first-class mail, other increases requested by the post office include:
_Increase the postcard rate 2 cents to 23 cents.
_A 1-pound priority mail item would rise 35 cents to $3.85.
_Increases in parcel post, with a 5-pount item costing $4.19 to $7.25 now, depending on distance, would rise to $5.03 to $9.43.
_A half-pound Express Mail item would jump $1.20 to $13.65.
_Certified mail would increase 20 cents to $2.30.
_Insurance charges would go up for most mail, depending on amount of insurance, but would be reduced for Express Mail.
_The charge for a return receipt would go up 25 cents to $1.75.
A screech owl has moved into one of the squirrel nest boxes and the resident blue jays are really pissed.
WASHINGTON (AP) -Former Washington Mayor Marion Barry denies having illegal drugs after the U.S. Park Police said it found traces of marijuana and cocaine in his car.
Barry was not arrested because the amount of the substance discovered Thursday night was too small, said Sgt. Scott Fear, a Park Police spokesman.
Police were summoned to a remote area of southwest Washington to investigate a report of a vehicle in a no-parking zone. An officer saw a man in a Jaguar appear to be "ingesting something," Fear said. The officer also noticed a powdery substance under the man's nose, he said.
HOUSTON (AP) -- Playboy is hoping to entice some of the women who lost their shirts in the Enron scandal to reveal a little bit more.
The magazine is putting together a ``Women of Enron'' pictorial and is inviting employees past and present to send snapshots of themselves in bikinis if they wish to pose.
``This is an opportunity for them to do something fun in the midst of the turmoil that's going on in their lives. These are women who are out of a job,'' Playboy spokeswoman Elizabeth Norris said. ``We are offering what you could view as a part-time job, or what might turn into a new career.''
exactly why PETA will never get any of my money! Using women's bodies and the beauty image to sell veganism sucks!
MADISON, Maine (CNN) -- It's a story straight out of a cartoon, or perhaps a National Geographic special.
Fortunately for Laura Martins, the owner of a 13-pound dachshund snatched by a bald eagle just over two weeks ago, this story has a happy ending.
Ava, the Martins' 2-year-old dog, is now recovering in a Maine animal hospital from her second surgery in as many weeks after her harrowing and almost fatal adventure.
"She's still in the hospital, but she's doing fine," said Laura Martins. "I can't see her until Tuesday or Wednesday, because when I go over there, she get so happy and excited" the doctors worry she could burst open her scars.
An eagle, considered a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act, swooped down and clawed Ava on March 8 while the dog was roaming near her rural Maine home. The bird carried Ava about 300 feet before dropping her.
Didn't like hotdogs, I guess.
Anyway, she looks about like this (Brindle Mastiff): 
The following is a Presa (Dogo) Canario: 
MUNICH, Germany (Reuters) - A Munich man suspected of murder after he was seen carrying what a neighbor thought was a dead body into his apartment was cleared after he showed police his collection of rubber sex dolls.
A police spokeswoman said Tuesday the neighbor called to say he saw the man carrying a "corpse" into the apartment. Police responding to the call found the suspect to be "surprised and disturbed" by their questions at first.
"When the officers then told the man they were investigating a murder he showed them his newly acquired silicon sex doll," the spokeswoman said.
"The man also showed the officers four other inflatable sex dolls he owns. Apparently, he had just been testing out his new acquisition when police arrived."
SYDNEY (Reuters) - The adage that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks may be the wrong way round.
It could have been that new tricks were taught to people by dogs more than 100,000 years ago, prompting humankind to take a leap in development leading to modern culture and society, Australia-based researchers said Tuesday.
"We believe there were several forces that led to the development of anatomically and behaviorally modern humans, and that the close relationship between our human ancestors and wolves was one of the key factors," Paul Tacon, principal research scientist at the Australian Museum, told Reuters.
Tacon and bio-archaeology consultant Colin Pardoe published the theory Tuesday in the peer-reviewed journal Nature Australia.
John Hogan, 49, had apparently entered the house after his ex-wife had set out on her morning walk, authorities said.
The motive was unclear, Merced County sheriff's Cmdr. Mark Pazin said
"Nobody could ever foresee something like this," Pazin said. "I can't put it into words. It's horrifying."
Hogan was found dead in the bed in the master bedroom, the body of 5-year-old Michelle Hogan in his arms.
...
The three older children were identified as Melanie Willis, 17; Stanley Willis, 15, and Stuart Willis, 14.
Melanie, a junior, was a straight-A student, ranked second in her class of 467 students and was on the ballot Friday to become senior class vice president. Stanley was on the baseball team.
It would be interesting to know what sort of medical reasons caused him to leave the sheriff's department.
Oh, absolutely. He wanted her to suffer. He didn't want to suffer, though, which is why he offed himself.
He left 9 years ago. What has he been doing since?
Professor sued over lesson
U.Va. student claims assault
CHARLOTTESVILLE - In a case fraught with irony as well as potential repercussions for how law teachers run their classes, a University of Virginia law student filed a lawsuit alleging a professor assaulted her as part of a classroom demonstration of what constitutes assault.
Marta Sanchez filed a lawsuit in Albemarle County Circuit Court against law professor Kenneth Abraham, contending he committed assault and battery against her. The lawsuit seeks $25,000 in compensatory damages and $10,000 in punitive damages.
The university has until Monday to respond to the lawsuit, filed Feb. 26.
The lawsuit stems from an incident last fall in an introductory class Abraham teaches for first-year law students. As a demonstration of a legal principle known as the "egg-shell skull rule," Abraham touched Sanchez on the shoulder.
Sanchez said the touch - which Abraham has said was a "tap" and Sanchez has described as a "caress" - caused her to experience disturbing memories of rape, pregnancy and abortion she suffered in her native Panama.
"She brought a lot of baggage with her," said Steven Rosenfield, Sanchez's lawyer. "She had been terrorized and victimized as a child, and although we don't hold Abraham responsible for what happened to her as a child, what he did is exacerbate and bring to the surface once again her vulnerability to men with authority and power."
Abraham referred questions on the case to Richard C. Kast in the university's Office of the General Counsel. A university spokeswoman said yesterday university attorneys do not discuss ongoing cases.
Other professors and legal scholars expressed fears the law-suit, if successful, could have a far-reaching effect on how law professors teach their classes.
Law students must face sensitive issues such as rape, pornography, abortion, sexual harassment and the death penalty, said Anne Coughlin, a criminal-procedure and feminist-theory specialist at U.Va.
"Given the stuff I teach, this scares me out of my wits," she said. "I have to talk about issues that are much more explosive than a torts suit. I teach rape and police brutality and you name it, all those subjects, and they are very, very hard. The thought that you'd have to so carefully police yourself in the classroom that a misspoken word might generate not just a student coming up to you after class but a lawsuit . . . is really troubling."
Richard Merrill, an administrative law expert and former dean of the law school, said he found the Sanchez lawsuit "deeply disturbing. We engage students all the time, in conversation, in argument. We interrogate them . . . and I think almost invariably with sensitivity to individual student reactions."
Of course, this Marta Sanchez has no problem with the idea of explicitly reliving her 'rape, pregnancy and abortion' 'as a child in Panama' for the media, her attorneys, the judge, jury and any courtroom observers who happen by.
Did you actually read the article about "inter-generational sex? It said: "Leading gay rights groups denounced the effort [to normalize it]."
The difference in the coverage really is interesting. They focus on what the dad's job was, even though he quit being a cop 9 years ago. The reports also spend lots of time talking about how the kids in school will cope with "the tragedy".
So unlike Andrea Yates, where the effort was on the "poor woman", society in this case treats it just like any other murder and focuses on themselves. Not much time spent on the victims.
I take it you've permantly disbarred any future participation of pedophile groups in any gay pride display whatsoever?
I take it you've permanently disbarred any future participation of pedophile groups in any gay pride display whatsoever?
It's obvious to me that you have had no real involvement with the Gay community at all, hence anyone's attempts to enlighten that tiny little booger you call a brain will result in headaches.
I have seen dykes and gay men threaten to beat the living shit out of NAMBLA members at Pride events before the cowards turn and head for home...I don't think you even begin to comprehend how hated pedophiles are in the Gay community.
and just to point out what a slimy little toad you are, your big concern is boys being abused by "homosexual men" (not true anyway as many pedophiles who victimize young boys lead very heterosexual lives). Using the highest estimates of abuse for boys and the lowest for girls, little girls are more than twice as likely to be sexually abused than little boys...but don't let that homophobia blind you to reality or somebody might think yer a fucking idiot.
(Personally, I think the only reason for reading anything Connie writes is to find out what demented bullshit the radical right is pushing today.)
Probably the exact same way. But no Newsweek covers.
But in both cases, it seems they were acting at least in part to get back at the spouse.
It's enough to give one hives about second relationships. I wonder where the kids' dad is?
yeah, I mostly ignore the poor stupid bastard, but you know, I've got a little excess anger today so i thought i should throw it at someone deserving.
Oh, yes. I'll go along with the assertion that she was delusional, but on the other hand she really seemed to know exactly what she was doing.
betty -
Try this on for size. I'm right, you're wrong. Deal with it.
Your anecdotes are worthless. So you found a couple of gay people who don't like pederasts. Whoop de do. The fact remains that 'intergenerational sex advocates' are perfectly welcome in gay pride marches.
So, until that fact permeates your thick skull, don't bother me. Plus, if I'm as bad as you pretend, I'm sure you'll ignore my advice to take CLEP tests.
After all, it's the 'progressive' thing to do. All their hate and vitriol will then be reserved for those who oppose child sex. Come to think of it, it already is.
Wrong. Why do you make such absurd assumptions?
There are plenty of gay organizations that do condemn it--HRC, for example. But I have seen more than one gay man speak approvingly about sex between men and young boys. Larry Kramer comes to mind, and I'm a huge fan of his generally. There are at least a few men in public advocacy positions that blur the line, and I think the gay community as a whole needs to be better at drawing it clearly.
I should say that I have never met a gay man whose feelings on adult-child sex differ a whit from my own, and I am quite sure it's a minority opinion.
Looks like I've won that one going away, huh, Betty? Or, perhaps you think you score major points by cussing me out like some parody of a sailor?
You are so full of shit on so many levels that it's hard to know where to begin debunking (or whether to even bother).
1. I have no children, so I am not a mom, soccer or otherwise.
2. Regardless, I recall in highschool several instances of male teachers having affairs with female students. I did not approve then and I do not approve now. Way back then in the mid-70's the powers that be did not think it was a big deal as long as the teacher was not married and the relationship was not interracial. I am glad that has changed.
3. Where you get the notion that pointing out that most pedophilia involves girl children and male perps indicates approval for these relationships I have no idea. It appears that no smear is too rank or nasty crap for you to attempt to spread. Fortunately, all but those of your ilk know you are a buffon and discount everything that you say.
You just discredit yourself by agreeing with me about the undesirability of 'intergenerational sex', then saying what you agree with is 'full of shit on so many levels'.
the disagreement is not with the undesirability of "intergenerational sex"...the disagreement is with your desire to pin it on gay people. Read a little more carefully next time, Ok pumpkin.
I don't see much in the way of legal analysis there. It's pretty much more of the same handwringing about mental illness. Could you possibly refrain from linking in pieces that end lauding the humane treatment that Europe affords women who butcher their babies? I gotta tell you, it kills your argument cold.
Again, I don't see why a woman who murders her children should be considered any more or less mentally ill than a pedophile, a serial rapist, or a serial killer. I don't see why she should be given more of a pass because she didn't gun five other children down in a schoolyard, or because she wasn't a father killing his children. Any analysis that doesn't take that into consideration is, by definition, saying that women who kill their children should receive special consideration.
People who don't murder for gain or revenge are pretty sick fucks. I really don't have much patience with an argument that gives women more protection because they brutally strike down their own.
We've had two male paranoid schizophrenics commit murders in AR in the last few years, one recently who killed himself and his little boy. No one argued that either man wasn't mentally ill. It was never questioned.
I've never heard Larry say anything of the kind. Allen Ginsberg, yes. Can you give me something specific re Larry.
It's also been obvious that the church has done NOTHING about it. it'sonly out to protectits own image. So priests "confess" and are "forgiven." And then they're moved to another parish to molest again.Meanwhile the victims and their families are paid off.
To say that this is a problem of "The Gay Community," is plainly and simple a lie.
THERE ARE NO GAY PRIESTS.
Only homosexuals.
This is, needless to say A LIE! The Archbishop had best look to his immortal soul for LYING!
And the authorities would be advised to ARREST HIS LYING ASS for aiding and abetting sex criminals.
if i wasn't bored of hearing CalGal weigh in on every single subject that she's a seeming expert on i would have asked her to produce some source on that.
I did a few searches, I found nothing that would link Kramer with pro-pedophilia statements.
Meanwhile Here's a good read-out of the problem.
To attempt to draw some sort of parallel...society has no problem locking up alcoholics who kill people while they are in drunken blackouts, or just plain out of their minds on drugs when they kill. Karla Faye Tucker comes to mind here, and she was put to death. I'm against the death penalty across the board, but I don't have a problem with locking up Karla Faye, even if she did get clean and sober and truly rehabilitated. She committed murder. This isn't a woman I want on the streets. What if she picks up another drink?
What is so different about Yates? Why is she not to be held responsible? It still chills me to think of how Rusty Yates was kind of...not so surprised about what happened.
HOUSTON Country singer Lyle Lovett was trampled by a bull and hospitalized with a broken leg Wednesday, a hospital spokeswoman said.
Lovett was undergoing surgery on his right leg Wednesday night, said Memorial Hermann Hospital spokeswoman Beth Sartori.
"He was in good condition on arrival," she said.
Lovett was injured on his uncle's farm is Klein, near Houston, the Tomball Regional Hospital said in a release. A bull flipped Lovett's uncle, Calvin Klein, 67, and Lovett was trampled while trying to help his uncle. Klein was treated and released at Tomball.
I didn't know Calvin Klein was Lyle's uncle...
MERCED, Calif. (AP) - Rambling letters written by a man who killed his daughter, three stepchildren and himself depict a desperate man bent on revenge over a failed marriage, authorities said Wednesday.
The writings were found in the apartment of the former sheriff's deputy and at the house of his ex-wife, where the five victims were found dead of gunshot wounds Tuesday.
I'm not 'pinning it' on gay people. I am calling on gay people to be proactive in publicly disavowing all forms of 'intergenerational sex', which isn't currently the case.
Your local Boy Scout organisation? The church down the road? The local school mistress? I haven't heard George Bush saying anything about it either, come to think of it.
Why is it incumbent on one particular sector of society to be more proactive than any other regarding 'intergenerational sex'? Your attempts to link gay people with paedophilia are so transparent as to be laughable.
if pedophilia were a problem isolated to the gay community it would make sense for gay leaders to come out and vocally condemn it, otherwise, it makes no sense...it's not a gay problem, it's a social and criminal problem...gay leaders aren't asked to speak out against armed robbery, why should they speak out against pedophilia?
Especially when we still have to get some basic human rights guaranteed before we have any authority or power in the legal system.
Now, like I said, I have no idea if this still goes on (meaning in the last 6-7 years).
That's admittedly not outright support of what NAMBLA stands for, but it does imply a tolerant view.
I'll try. I remember linking it in several years ago, back in Fray history. The gist of the comment was that Larry thought people made too much of adults having sex with children, that for gay children the kindness of an adult showing tem how "normal" their feelings are is the first positive experience they ever had with their sexuality. I think he even said that it is often the kids who seek it out.
In short, Larry thinks that kids can consent.
Don't know anything about the site, but it's a sourced quote from Reports from the Holocaust:
In those instances where children do have sex with their homosexual elders, be they teachers or anyone else, I submit that often, very often, the child desires the activity, and perhaps even solicits it, either because of a natural curiosity that will or will not develop along these lines, or because he or she is homosexual and innately knows it. This is far from "recruitment." Obviously, there are instances in which the child is unwilling, and is a victim of sexual abuse, homo- or heterosexual. But, as with straight children anxious for the experience with someone of the opposite sex, these are kids who seek solicit, and consent willingly to sex with someone of the same sex. And unlike girls or women forced into rape and traumatized, most gay men have warm memories of their earliest and early sexual encounters; when we share these stories with each other, they are invariably positive ones.(Kramer, p.234)
I have never been to a Gay event where NAMBLA was welcome...I am young so have only been around for about 7 years total, in Buffalo, New York and mostly Philly...but i can state, clearly and emphatically that I have NEVER seen NAMBLA welcome at an event, by organizers or participants.
Harry Hay, a famous gay activist, was Grand Marshal in the San Francisco parade, despite having long supported NAMBLA. Now, I realize that Hay was a father of the gay movement. But the fact that this support is overlooked is demonstration that there isn't full support for an utter condemnation of NAMBLA.
It is only in recent years that gay pride parades have started taking a stand on NAMBLA, and I think they still show up at some of them. There is not complete support for banning them.
This does not mean that most gays are pedophiles, or that most gays support pedophilia. But some small percentage of gay people don't seem willing to openly condemn sexual behaviors that they "don't approve of", seeing no difference between condemning sex with children and condemning sex with the opposite sex.
Of course, there are straight people who say the same thing--I think that "hey, it's just sex, no one gets hurt" is the common thread, not the orientation. But it hurts gays more.
Not a debate. Not a tense moment. Not, an oh, gee.
That was certainly the case at the Human Rights Campaign, the largest gltb organization in the country.
And no, it is not recently that gay pride parades/orgs, etc, have started banning NAMBLA, if by recent you mean within the past five or even ten years. I heard of NAMBLA bans back in the early 80s when I first came out and started getting involved in gay rights organizations.
I cannot attest for San Francisco. They may had debates over it.
As a gay man who has been out for a while, I don't come across other gay people who tolerate sex with children.
Absolute power is corrupting, so the saying goes, and the absolute power of the male clergy has had a corrupting affect on the church. They're going to have to change the structure.
By "recent" I meant that the subject of banning Nambla wasn't something that was addressed until the mid-90s. I definitely didn't hear of them back in the 80s. But I am in California. NAMBLA was certainly appearing at parades in the 90s; it was much squawked about in the conservative press.
I disagree about women priests, btw. Think how many mothers were pressured into hushing up their sons' abuse--and that was their sons. I can't think women would be any different about protecting the hierarchy.
I also said this earlier--not that I'm gay, but that I've never met any gay people who have views that differ from mine in the slightest on this issue. This conversation got interrupted so I want to stress that again.
The problem is that some of the people who are advocates for gay rights, and some of the people who are actively involved in gay rights are not as full-throated in their condemnation. I don't get the sense that they are pedophiles; rather it's that absurd tolerance for all sorts of sexual behavior that is behind this belief.
The more the gay movement publicly distances itself from 'intergenerational sex' advocates, the better.
The organizers were probably struck with some moral relativism bug, or more likely, not thinking at all.
Whatever, it's hurt the movement, because it gives people something ugly to latch on to if they want to spread the idea that gays are morally sick.
The gay movement has grown up a lot since the AIDS epidemic, as far as I can see, and I would expect that everyone has their shit together enough at this point to not let NAMBLA near any of their events.
But, I think that Yates' case is interesting in that it shows a defect in the M'Naughten analysis that I had not recognized. The article expressed that difficulty, although not as clearly or forcefully as I would have liked. How are we to tease out the killers knowledge of "right" and "wrong" when the killer has no problem seeing a given action as simultaneously right and wrong. This contradiction is impossible for someone who is not psychotic, not just mentally ill mind you, but psychotic. And there is a world of difference between diagnosable with a mental illness and psychotic. Depressives, OCD, ADHD, agoraphobics, pedophiles, frotterists, sadists, the personality disordered, phobics, schizophrenics all are diagnosible, but only a fraction are psychotic. Equating pedophilia to psychosis is akin to equating charley horses to muscular dystrophy.
Unless you grasp and accept this essential distinction, you will see anything questioning the Yates case or anything like it as "handwringing." Unless you can grasp and accept this distinction, further discussion is pointless.
If I were a married person right now, I would feel quite uncomfortable because married people tolerate this. Where is the outcry?
others get jumpy when the less-than-vigilant approach to pedophilia in the gay community is addressed.
If the other you are referring to is me, then allow me to respond.
I read statements in this thread that bans on NAMBLA were only recent. Not my experience.
In fact, I shared my experience. And in none of my jumpiness, did I ever say that NAMBLA should be tolerated nor did I make any excuse for it.
There are people in society who have sex with kids. Some of them are married. Some of them are priests. Some of them are gay.
They ought to be in jail.
But how does the gay community boot out people like Larry Kramer and Harry Hay? It's difficult to denounce people who have fought so hard for awareness of gay issues, and it's not like they themselves are pedophiles. They just "have a different view". It's a view that in any other community would be reviled and ruin their reputation.
That's the dichotomy that gives the conservatives an edge in--just as Holly mentions, above.
Larry Kramer? What gay organizations is he associated with? Larry consistently attacks gay groups over a whole range of issues. He founded Gay Men's Health Crisis and promptly left it (or was kicked out of it) and attacked it for many years. His one big play, The Normal Heart, is all about his estrangement from gay and political groups as well as his anger over AIDS and how everybody responded to it.
In both cases, the men have lived their lives angry and separated from gay organizations.
I've seen some really awesome and great work come out of Radical Fairy Cabals, this is the first i have heard about them having any tolerance of pedophiles, could you point me to some more info on this.
I find this most interesting because a lot of the glbt anarchists in Philly are involved with Radical Fairy and they were also the most vocal in saying "No NAMBLA materials in our store".
Well, yeah. I'm not disagreeing. (Larry Kramer founded ACT UP, too, btw). But the fact is that both men are afforded a great deal of respect within the gay community--even if they reject it--and like it or not, Kramer in particular is consulted by national media on "gay issues", particularly with AIDS.
The real problem in their views, I think, is that they link them to their homosexuality. For example, Kramer comes across as "well, there's pedophilia and then there's gay kids attracted to gay adults", and he seems to be saying that the latter is okay, or not harmful.
I agree that all straight people aren't tarnished when some idiot who happens to be straight makes similar excusing noises towards pedophilia. That has to do with gays still being seen in part as exclusively gay, with no other distinguishing characteristics. But the simple truth is that NAMBLA was at gay pride parades for quite some time, under the guise of "geez, it's all okay". I don't think it was until the mid-90s that they were pretty much stomped out; it wasn't actively pursued until conservatives began using NAMBLA's presence at gay pride parades as evidence of homosexual deviance. Again, this does not mean that the majority of gay people weren't repulsed by NAMBLA.
Most gay people I know probably have not even heard of Harry Hays. I think Cellar quoted him in his book. Certainly he is well known in California, but probably more so among older gay men than younger ones.
Larry Kramer was very active in Act Up New York, which has pretty much fizzled out. I think he ended up mad at them, too. The passion there was during the AIDS crisis. Once government and the drug companies started responding, and the medication started saving lives, it became a ghost of itself. The ACT UP groups were never an organization, per se, but a group of loosely organized people.
Kramer used to routinely decry all the gay organizations and their leaders. I haven't heard or read much about him in the last several years, other than some squabble he had with Yale over leaving them money for an endowment, and over his health.
The very people and groups Kramer and Hays were closely affiliated tended to be loud, fringe and less like what makes up the overall gay population in this country. They answer to themselves alone.
And again, my own experience in Texas and in DC is that NAMBLA was always a HUGE no, and again, that goes back to the 80s. Maybe it took longer in the Bay Area.
"Under Texas law, the charge of child endangerment requires that someone intentionally and knowingly place children in danger. It carries a maximum penalty of two years in jail. "
We know how to read.
You sometimes "forget."
Likewise the "Weekly Standard" screed that Julius linked is a pathetic attempt to tie gays and pedophilia into the same Conservabot stew.
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" say The Who in their immortal "Won't Get Fooled Again."
I don't get fooled ever!
Regardless, everybody is growing nicely, and it is a statement that those segments of the gay community previously less-than-clean on the pedophilia issue are reaching the pristine level suggested by glenda - faster, it appears, than the American Catholic Church.
Interestingly, a similar dynamic is at play with regard to both groups. When lax denunciation of pedophilia was pointed out to the gay community, there were those who tried to explain, and in that process, tacitly excused.
Now, when the Catholic Church's disgraceful secret is revealed (and it is essentially similar to that leveled at segments of the gay community -tolerance of the intolerable), you hear the canard of celibacy.
As if it is a natural state to molest children if a woman is too long unavailable.
what is it where you are?
what do you think it should be?
in NYS it's 17 though i think 16 is a more realistic age.
The Scope of the Problem
I said: But I have seen more than one gay man speak approvingly about sex between men and young boys. Larry Kramer comes to mind, and I'm a huge fan of his generally. There are at least a few men in public advocacy positions that blur the line, and I think the gay community as a whole needs to be better at drawing it clearly.
And I don't feel like arguing about this anymore; I've stated my position.
Namely: It is a fact that NAMBLA participated in gay pride parades throughout the country until the early 90s; I am sure there were communities that banned them. It is a fact that people who are publicly known as gay activists have made comments that aren't as condemning of adult-child sex as one would like. It is a fact that some gay activists (as well as some straight people) don't automatically condemn sex between adults and children. It is a fact that mainstream gay organizations had to deal with lousy press accusing them of supporting pedophiles because of the impression given by bad decisions in the past.
That's hardly earthshattering news, people.
Who are those explainers? Name names. I will name the names of organizations I worked with or for: Texas Gay Rights Lobby, later became Lesbian/Gay Rights of Texas, Austin Gay & Lesbian Political Caucus, the Human Rights Campaign. These organizations never, to my knowledge, were less than total in their denunciation of NAMBLA. Austin didn't have a gay pride parade when I lived there, but there were several Marches on the State Capitol/political rallies, particularly in the late 80s, and NAMBLA was outlawed from the beginning. If there were a NAMBLA group in Texas at that time, I never saw or heard of them. But if you have examples of how these groups are lax in their denunciation of child molesters, please let me know.
When people talk about pedophilia and acuse gay people of being child-molesters, ala Pat Robertson or particularly James Kennedy of Florida (with his video "The Gay Agenda"), they raise the canard that we should refrain from sex with adults.
The Church has cut itself off from society by having male only, celebate priests. That's my opinion.
Unfortunately, it has also attracted people who molest children -- aren't we up to 70 out of 700 priests in Boston?
What gay organizations/leaders/gay rights advocates are having sex with children? The only time I've heard of it was a guy who was a city council member in Boston and I believe he was routinely denounced. I could be wrong about that.
GAY PEOPLE WHO DON'T START EACH DAY SAYING, CHILD MOLESTERS ARE BAD = PRIESTS WHO HAVE GOTTEN CAUGHT HAVING SEX WITH CHILDREN
I know. You'd think that rapes would be the first to increase.
Do you believe having celibacy rules attracts child molestors?
As for your request, the articles I posted answer some of your questions.
If you are interested, I'd be happy to provide you more evidence, as long as you don't get angry.
What gay organizations/leaders/gay rights advocates are having sex with children?
I don't know. I didn't claim any were.
No, I think he is saying, "Gay people who equivocate when condemning pedophilia = Catholics who think pedophilia is a natural result of celibacy."
I have reviewed my comments on this matter with care, and I can only attribute the waywardness of your 22609 to emotion.
Uh hunh.
"Do you believe having celibacy rules attracts child molestors?"
I believe that "celibacy" (quotes are required around this stupid destructive LIE) creates the atmosphere for some priests to bcome child molesters. It's a position of power and authority that is not supposed to be question, Julius. Abuse of all kinds is built right in. Priests are not Gods, they are men.
Troubled men -- because they've been told to squelch their sexuality. It can't be squelched. It CAN, however, be Truly Perverted.
Why is the church having so much trouble recruiting Priests?
Gay Liberation.
In the past the place was perfect for closet cases. Now they're resisting the closet and what you have left are the True Sickos-- men who "don't see themselves as homosexual" even while having sex with other men (like me for instance.)
And in Worst Case Instances --Children
I couldn't agree more about the position and authority of the priesthood attracting molestors. Bank robbers are attracted to poorly secured banks.
My question is more discrete.
Does the fact that these men are prohibited from having regular sexual relations with an adult make them more likely to molest a child?
Quit the "emotion" cop-out Julius. It's not worthy fo you.
There's only one important question -- and I'm asking you as a lawyer --
Should the Los Angeles District Attorney's office arrest Archbishop Roger Mahoney for aiding and abetting sex crimes?
I do know about the criminal in Boston.
And if they can, they should.
Yes.
As for the emotion issue, when I get a misreading as bad as and CAPS from the otherwise consistently thoughtful and all-around great guy glenda, I can only ascribe it to heat.
I am not a Catholic, so my opinion on Church mandated celibacy is not consequential.
But, yes, I do believe that imposed celibacy is part of the problem. Why?
Because it has cut the church off from its own people, in terms of filling the priesthood. Used to be, in the US, in a large Catholic family, a son or daughter was deposited to the church, often at an early age, to become a priest or nun. Those days are over. I read somewhere that large numbers of priests have left the priesthood because of this. So who is left to join? Some people who have a gift (to use the Church's language) or an affinity to being celibate. And some who had a sex problem and thought they could get away from it by being in the Church, only to be thrust into a role of being considered sacred men trustworthy with children. It may have actually attracted a larger number of people with this problem because forced celibacy makes the pool of qualfied candidates smaller.
I think it also cuts the priests off from life, and stems from the Catholic Church's difficulty with sex, a debate that is again, neither here nor there.
I also think that a segregated priesthood creates a bit of corruption, in the sense that in the Church, there is no competing voices. Sort of like when one political party dominates a legislative body, they forget they are accountable, and they begin to make excuses for behavior that others find wrong.
There probably have been mothers who excused bad priests or chose to ignore their own children's cries for help. Same as in life when a father is a molester.
But there are also mothers and fathers who will not tolerate it. I had a friend in Austin whose daughter was molested. She was ready to kill the neighbor who did it (he's in jail now). She has zero tolerance for molesters. I bet there are more parents like that, but that's just my guess.
This is, needless to say, a lie. An ENORMOUS lie.
a LIE that a "Man of the Cloth" should tremble at the very prospect of uttering.
CUFF HIM! BOOK HIM!
Moreover, it's easier to fuck a whore or an adult parishioner like Carmella Soprano than molest a child.
I'd be curious as to glenda's view.
I really don't know that celibacy turns a perfectly well adjusted individual into a sexual predator. I think about the men who rape, they aren't usually men who can't have sex with women...the obviously can't have sex with the women they rape at that point in time...but the majority of the rapists on campuses are involved with Fraternities and/or are involved with intercollegiate athletics, they are desirable mates for many women. but of my geeky friends who didn't have sex for the first time until they were well into their twenties, none of them raped anyone (obviously that I am aware of, but I also don't think they have the self-esteem to assume that they even could do such a thing)
I don't think sexual desperation turns one into an abuser, though i can see how it might drive someone to get a DSL line for faster porn download time.
Because men in prison aren't in positions of authority Deemed By God. Kids are FORCED to look up to priests as Idealized beings, not mere men. When you have someone psychologically trapped like this -- in your thrall -- it's only a short step to raping them.
Men who enter the priesthood aren't perfectly well adjusted inviduals. That's why they've decided to become priests.
I couldn't agree more as to the cuffing or the booking, but I couldn't agree less as to the celibacy/pedophilia tie-in.
In fact, using the same logic, I could argue that moral denunciation of homosexuality cuts homosexuals from their own society (to use glenda's tie) and thus, increases their pedophilia.
I don't buy that either.
I agree with your 22629 completely. I would not dispute that at all, I agree very much with everything you have said here, that the priesthood attracts nutters and I also wanted to be clear that I don't think the priesthood MAKES abusers.
If you are arguing that enforced celibacy is undesirable, which decreases healthy and adjusted prospective priests, increasing the probability of a deviant getting in, sure. That's believable. Pedophiles are predators, and I could buy that lots of them think that the priesthood is a great way to get access to lots of kids.
But that's different from saying that celibacy causes pedophilia.
I have no doubt that Protestant and Orthodox Christian priests and ministers include sexual predators of the young. If 70 out of 700 in my city were caught doing it, I'd think we have a problem. Now maybe we are. Do you think child molestation is occurring at the same rates among married clergy in the United States as Catholic priests?
There may not be a reason, but the self-hating gay is a fact of life, and in large part, the self-hatred comes from societal denunciation. Yet, I don't attribute the societal denunciation to pedophilia (i.e., "Society made me do it") and more than I accept celibacy to pedophilia ("If only I could nail adults, I'd lay off the kiddies").
But, yes, I do believe that imposed celibacy is part of the problem.
you could use it, and see if it is true
I could use what?
And now I must be off. Tonight is Maundy Thursday, the beginning of the three holiest nights for many Christians. In the service tonight, the altar is stripped, the priest (Anglican, so a woman priest and a male priest) wash the feet of laity, and we go out into the night in silence.
Adios.
I just realized that JC stated the question two different ways.
He first said, Do you believe having celibacy rules attracts child molestors?
The second restatement was the only one I saw, Does the fact that these men are prohibited from having regular sexual relations with an adult make them more likely to molest a child?
I don't think that having celibacy rules attracts child molesters, but it is possible that in these days there aren't enough people in the church to field a full priesthood without reaching into the deviant sector.
But Cellar is claiming that celibacy itself causes pedophilia, if I understand him.
I really think you're just plain wrong about women and their good influence.
I'm not sure you want to go there, unless you are prepared to answer whether child molestation of girls and of boys is equivalent amongst the Catholic clergy.
I think you're missing my point. "Celibacy" IMH(omo)O creates an atmosphere that makes pedophile priest possible. Internalized Homophobia in the world is quite a different matter. There is no socially-approved format for the acceptance or toleration of pedophiles in the world the way there is in the Church. What must NEVER be forgotten is that these men once discovered weren't removed from the priesthood and turned over to the authorities. They were sent to other parishes to molest again ! The cops were NEVER notified, and the families were paid off.
Internalized Homophobia leading to gay self-hatred in the world can resultin any number of things: starring in a piece of gilded crap like Panic Room, marrying Diane Von Furstenberg, or threatening to sue Cellar Door.
By endowing priests with an aura of discipline and trust, celibacy fosters pedophilia and facilitates coverups...
The rates may be higher for the celibate and the homosexual.
But I'm not prepared to say that celibacy or homosexuality is a contributing factor to pedophilia.
Adios.
Are you saying that it's the entire construct of priesthood that can make priests sick? Because if not, it's just another rape-as-power-high scenerio, and these men who are priests could've done something else with their lives and still end up raping kids.
The idea that celibacy itself could twist someone's head is rather silly.
In the short term the REAL problem is a church run by people who insist on aiding and abetting criminals.
(Gary Wills is, needless to say, correct.)
Yes. And not just in relation to pedophilia.
" Because if not, it's just another rape-as-power-high scenerio, and these men who are priests could've done something else with their lives and still end up raping kids. "
Maybe, but it's SO much easier to rape a kid if you're a priest.
but it's SO much easier to rape a kid if you're a priest.
I've been on the firing line. It is not easier than getting a prostitute or otherwise procuring a woman. Kids, for example, have curfews, parents with whom they live, reservations, and guilt. Nailing them takes a plan.
Nailing a whore takes $40, a different shirt, and a bus token.
Sure. I just don't think it will increase the likelihood that pedophiles will be reported.
Also, if the Catholic church allows women and ends celibacy, they are basically acknowledging that their current system is flawed. I don't see that happening.
Muchos Adioses.
There are nuns who are involved in the church, and I don't know if that has anything whatever to do with the pedophile rate. Furthermore, aren't there many, many cases of men molesting children who are relatives, under the noses of mothers, aunts, grandmothers, etc.?
I don't think sexual attraction to children has anything to do with celibacy. Women parishioners I'm sure are available to priests, if it is just a matter of having sex.
Exactly my point. In fact, the Catholic Church relied on the willingness of parents--meaning moms, too--for years in order to keep things quiet.
But celibacy without its supporting ascetical discipline cannot be sustained all on its own.
This is true.
The line from priestly celibacy to pedophilia seems wobbly, though. Too many other factors to take into account. The priesthood looks like a nice place to neglect your emotional maturity...the collar on, and whoosh! Instant respect, without the messiness of having to interact with other people as their equals. And your sexuality turns into a non-issue, so nobody's looking at whatever it is you decide to do, including yourself.
Hmmm...I guess I see that yes, in this atmosphere, pedophilia could be easily nurtured. But I don't know about created, per se.
He also refers to something I've been hearing for a few weeks now, that more and more gay men are priests, and that the celibacy vow is taken lightly.
"He also refers to something I've been hearing for a few weeks now, that more and more gay men are priests, and that the celibacy vow is taken lightly."
That's not my point at all. The ranks of the priesthood are dwindling because there are more and more men coming to grips with being gay and living their lives out and proud.
There are no gay priests.
Only homosexuals.
I mean, if I decide to be celibate tomorrow, no way would it ever cross my mind to start molesting children.
The ranks of the priesthood are dwindling because there are more and more men coming to grips with being gay and living their lives out and proud.
This may be true, but many of them seem to be going into the priesthood anyway.
Haha, very funny.
I suspect that people who know their sexual predilections be it for children or other men, may be drawn to the priesthood in the mistaken assumption that a celibate, disciplined life will ensure they won't ever act out those forbidden desires. But this is just a suspicion. I haven't seen any data that verifies that pedophilia or homosexuality occurs with greater frequency in the priesthood than in other walks of life.
Of course the way the church has hidden the perps may result in a greater frequency than, say in the boy scouts or bus drivers where there is no protective institutional structure that permits the child abuse to continue.
"CAN THE CHURCH SAVE ITS SOUL? As the scandal widens, shocked Catholics search for solutions."
Let's put the celibacy business to one side for a minute and look at the situation plainly. Any priest who molests a child should be thrown out of the church and handed over to the authorities
IMMEDIATELY!
No exceptions. No cover-ups. No pay-offs. No "pastoral care" crap.
Molesting children is a crime. Priests who molest children are child molesters -- not priests who have "sinned" and only require "forgiveness."
PERIOD!
I really don't see how this painfully simple point isn't easy to understand.
And to think there are yahoos in this country who don't think there is such thing as hate crime.
Thank God most are Republicans
We're not supposed to notice pedophile priests. It's that simple.
In the past it was possible for them to do this because of the culture's extreme reluctance to discuss sexual matters of all sorts with any degreeof honesty. Same-sexuality was literally the unspeakable. That game is over.
But other games are still very much in operation, as jex's link proves.
Poor kid, I hope she has some real friends.
Dreher makes the same mistake made by glendajean and Cellar. There may be statistical significance to the fact that those in celibacy and those who are homosexual engage in pedophilia more than their non-celibate and married counterparts in the Christian clergy, but it is a very different thing to conclude that the enforced celibacy or the homosexuality is a causative factor in pedophilia.
Yesterday you asked: Do you believe having celibacy rules attracts child molestors?
I responsed: But, yes, I do believe that imposed celibacy is part of the problem.
I then talked about:
1) a process that denies otherwise qualified candidates, a policy that has resulted in priests leaving the priesthood, a smaller applicant pool, and the possibility that potential molesters thinking the Church would be the fartherest thing from sex, only to find themselves in a trusting position. I also talked about the value of having parents involved in the priesthood, and as a way to shake up corruption -- tolerance of child molesters.
Did I conclude that celibacy is a causative factor in pedophilia? No. Do I think it attracts molesters. Probably. Do I think it has something to do with the current problem? Yes.
It not only is a very different thing, its medical inaccurate.
Pedophilia is a sexual attraction to prepubescent children, not "anyone underage. Pedophile do not fantasize about teenagers, they fantasize about kids who do not yet exhibit the development of secondary sexual characteristics. Given that the majority of the abusive crimes perpetrated by priests involved children over the age of puberty, they were most likely not cases of pedophilia. BTW, a person attracted to teenagers is an ephebophile.
Pedophiles come in all orientations, homosexual, heterosexual and bi-sexual.
Causes of pedophilia, as with most of the Paraphilic Behavior Disorders, are poorly understood. My guess is, that as with most behavior abnormalities, there exists a genetic predisposition, which is then activated by environmental stressors or events.
Though the experiences of being celibate or a homosexual might encompass stressors or events that could activate a predisposition to Paraphilic Behavior, so could losing a parent at a young age, being social isolated or abused, or being lost in the mall for four hours.
BTW, his take is that there are pockets of gay priests in the priesthood, and talks about the Jesuits. He thinks that in some circles gay priests are ignoring the celibacy rules and that this also contributes to a culture of toleration.
These gay priests live in glass houses. No one wants to see anyone pick up a stone.
Though being gay has nothing to do with pedophilia, and a gay ministry is increasingly being accepted in other religious denominations (which do not require celibate ministers), the claim of celibacy is obviously being hollowed out by sexual activity, whether heterosexual or homosexual, whether with consenting adults or with abused minors. The protection of the aura of celibacy demands the coverup of a whole range of activities with the common denominator of tarnishing the aura of celibacy.
This puts priests in a situation of mutual blackmail. A gay bishop who is innocent of pedophilia may be hesitant to push for punishment of a fellow priest if that could expose him and his own partners to unwanted scrutiny. The gays can rightly say that church authorities have been very protective in the past of priests having affairs, long-standing or briefly exploitative, with women. Speaking to this subject at a 1972 synod of bishops in Rome, Cardinal Franjo Seper, the former head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said, "I am not at all optimistic that celibacy is being observed."
Humping a kiddie, however, is something I have difficulty attributing to one's sexual preference or their vow of celibacy.
I mean, it's weird enough to think of a gay man thinking, "Hmm, where's a good place to meet lots of men and an easy living? I know, I'll be a priest!" But then figure there's not just one or two of these guys, but a lot of them, if heterosexuals are a near minority.
That's a weird mindset, it seems to me. So I'd be halfway to buying that a mindset of such dishonesty might also be tolerant of pedophilia.
But I can't quite figure out if these priests are pedophiles or older men hitting only on teenagers. I know that the latter group exists in the priesthood, but isn't there some pedophilia as well?
So, you are discussing celibacy without reference to pedophilia?
If so, my answer is simple: The Church gains gain by widening the pool of talent and placing spiritual leaders in a more natural state from which to offer guidance.
But boy oh boy do you lose something if you repeal celibacy in any way, shape or form as a result of the pedophilia scandals.
In the last 20-30 years? Find another buyer.
If you take away the celibacy requirement, what makes Catholicism measurably different from the rest of the pink blanky mildly Theist Christianity that pretends to be Protestantism in this country?
It allows the Church to get back to it's pagan roots, resolves the celibacy issue, and would, i'm sure, become the most successful form of missionary work ever, boosting the dollars in the collection plate and saving a whole lotta souls in the process.
I would consider converting to Catholicism if it gauranteed me one orgy every year.
I wasn't kidding...I'm really very serious about it and think it helps create a nice balance between celibacy for god and exploring the beauty of all his creations.
thinking about this, the orgy could only be for married members of the parrish (this would include nuns) and the priests. single people should not be able to take part in this.
If it were church doctrine, if there were some sort of biblical foundation for this type of thing are you sure you would feel it was a "go directly to hell" card?
What you're asking for is nothing less than simple honesty. That's anathema to the Church.
of course there would be safer sex...oh wait, this is the Catholic church, scrap that idea it would require them to re-think their "birth control" policy, and i think they'd be less likely to approve birth control than orgies.
the December 25th date corresponds to the Mythriac cults...a dead and resurrected bull god...though his birthday around the solstice is no coincidence...christians pretty much ripped off all their holidays and traditions from Pagans...it made it eaiser to convert the hill billies if they didn't feel like they were forfeiting thier fun...little did those poor fok of the earth know.
Well, I have done my part to put forth a plan that could save the Catholic Church from itself, if they choose to ignore it that's their deal.
This struck me as incredibly funny.
As did this.
Well, even taking into consideration the Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Anglicans, there's the Pope, for starters.
Do Catholics still believe that they need a priest to help guide them into heaven, or are they more and more thinking they can manage roughly on their own, thanks, like the Protestants?
I'm not sure there is any difference between Protestants, other than the divide between "believe in Christ or go to hell" and "just live a good life and God will love you", with "good life" not including "believe in Christ".
Most Americans who call themselves Christians buy off on the "just live a good life" theory, which I don't think can seriously call itself anything other than a pink blanky. It lets them call themselves believers while not having to do anything difficult.
Catholics have the saints and the sacraments. I thought Mary was a saint. I mean, literally. Or was she never legally human? But once you get past the trappings and the no sex for priests, what else is there? It's not like they pay attention on birth control or abortion or the death penalty.
In heavily Latin/Italian areas like NY or LA, they tend to go heavier on the statues, the Saints, and the Mary stuff.
In the Midwest all of that is played down, while more emphasis is placed on Jesus and the Gospels.
You need to go to church more.
...or go to more churches.
Anyway, I thought you were comparing Catholicism/Protestantism in Message # 22685?:
If you take away the celibacy requirement, what makes Catholicism measurably different from the rest of the pink blanky mildly Theist Christianity that pretends to be Protestantism in this country?
Well, yes, but Protestants don't get into that stuff at all, is what I'm saying.
Pink blanky Protestantism almost smothered me to death at the in-laws' church last Easter. Thank God I'm working this year.
I've probably been to more churches than you think. But in any event, I think you are focusing on fairly trivial differences. Besides, you belong to the "other" version of Protestantism, don't you? Believe in Christ or go to hell?
My point is that Catholicism has very few distinguishing factors any more from the bland pap that passes for non-evangelical Protestantism in this country. Celibate priests makes up about 30% of the total, so why would they want to drop it?
LONDON (Reuters) - The Queen Mother, the 101-year-old mother of Britain's Queen Elizabeth, died on Saturday, Buckingham Palace said.
The Queen Mother, the widow of King George VI and a rock of support behind her eldest daughter Queen Elizabeth, died "peacefully in her sleep" after a period of declining health.
Her death adds personal tragedy to a succession of domestic traumas suffered by the royal family in recent years, most recently the death on February 9 of her younger daughter, Princess Margaret at the age of 71.
I liked her comment when Buckingham Palace was bombed, "Well, that's a relief. Now I can look the East Enders in the eye."
I am currently taking a web-based traffic school class in compensation for my sins. One of the quiz questions that comes up over and over is "Speeding tickets issued to generate revenue" and I must grit my teeth over and over and answer, "False".
And then articles like this one come out.
To measure Ramsey's claim that the technology isn't about generating revenue--despite the District's collecting $15,569,721 in fines after two and a half years of red light camera use--I go on a ride-along, or rather, a sit-along, with D.C. police. On a muggy August morning, during the sleepy off-time just after rush hour, I lounge in an unmarked Crown Victoria in Northeast D.C. with Sgt. James McCoy and Officer D.J. Cephas. The car is one of five mobile photo radar units currently sweeping the city, along with one stationary unmanned unit. While red-light cameras are unmanned, permanently posted like all-seeing birdhouses at intersections, photo radar can either be shuttled around in police cars or stationed solo, without human supervision. (The District has promised their red-light cameras will also double as photo radar units, meaning motorists will eventually be dinged for clearing an intersection too fast, or for not clearing it fast enough.)
``You can't tell. Nobody would ever believe you anyway.''
Now they are telling. And business is booming for lawyer Stephen Rubino, who is sometimes moved to tears by the stories of childhood sexual abuse suffered at the hands of priests.
I think it may be very difficult to do in larger and heavily trafficked cities though.
But every once in awhile, a light will be out of synch and then you're stuck.
Well, there is purported to be such a thing as a left-libertarian, but I dunno...
I will miss her delightful, absolutely identical outfits in a half-dozen different pastel colors.
But the stories will remain, such as the comment attributed to her that she liked the opera because she enjoyed going someplace where she wasn't the only queen.
I think you're perhaps right. A left-libertarian may indeed want legalized drugs.
A run-of-the-mill libertarian, like myself, merely wants drugs legalized. 
Prize Photo Stirs Ethical Debate
On March 27, NPPA released a digitally manipulated version of the prize photograph on its website. The image shows a woman being sexually assaulted during the violent culmination of Mardi Gras in Seattle last year.
"The decision to publish this powerful and thought provoking image is [made] on the basis to bring awareness to the event and to protect the identity of the female victim," said NPPA president Clyde Mueller. "It is important to note that the contest criteria for the selection of the image is different than the criteria used by the editors of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer."
Although other top photojournalism prizes have been awarded to unpublished photographs, contest observers say they cannot recall another winner whose publication was more heavily debated. Last week, Poynter.org decided to withhold the image from its presentation of NPPA Best of Photjournalism winners out of respect for the privacy of the victim. The woman has never been identified.
Mike Urban of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer took the picture after scrambling to a fire escape to avoid a violent crowd.
"I saw this woman who in typical Mardi Gras fashion was asked to raise her top," Urban recalled to Poynter.org. "When she refused, they [the men around her] began to reach at her and tear her clothes
It happened so fast that the sea of people cleared and the woman just disappeared. There was no time for me to do anything."
Nothing more.
What gives with Orca, here? Following is what her office released:
In a prepared statement from her office at Chicago-based Harpo Productions, Winfrey said she had too many other things to do.
And, now, she is whining that she is being characterized as follows:
"She said, 'So imagine my surprise, I wake up and read in the newspaper that I'm being cavalier, I'm too busy.'
This reminds me of the bit where Andy Kaufman is railing against the tabloid press screaming,"How dare they write this! This is outrageous! Where do they get this stuff!?!". Then, he stops and in a normal voice says, "Well, they get it from me". Then screaming again, "But this is still outrageous!"
McNugget Sales Suspended in Japan
That breaded and deep-fried chicken head was supposedly found in an order of Chicken McNoggins ordered in a Norfolk Va. McDonalds. Turns out that it was a fraud -- the woman who supposedly received it in her order had deep fried the thing at home and put it in the box, hoping for a large settlement from Mickey D's. Course those of you outside Virginia probably never heard the end of the story since the chicken head made such an arresting photo.
i'll sue!
BERLIN (AP) -- A U.S. Army soldier drowned her two toddlers in her bathtub because she suspected her husband was having an affair, prosecutors said during the soldier's court-martial.
But defense attorneys say Spc. Lillie Morgan suffered a ``psychotic meltdown'' before the Sept. 18 killings, stemming from her own traumatic childhood.
Morgan, 22, testified Thursday at her court-martial in the western German city of Mannheim.
Last week I posted a pretty appalling picture on a Seattle wilding. It won Photo of the Year, but hadn't ever been published before.
I never heard of this event before the picture won. It hadn't received much national coverage, if any at all. The rioters stripped a girl naked when she refused to play along; the photographer was up on a fire exit and got the picture.
Michelle Cottle wrote, in Terps and Perps of the rioting that occurred after Maryland won--saying that it was fairly mild.
Trudging back to my car--which had fortunately been neither burned nor towed--I kept thinking back to something a young, black kid had muttered to a friend early in the evening. "You should have seen it here Saturday," he said in obvious wonder. "These white folks was out here just burning shit in the middle of the street." Like Officers Bert and Ernie, the kid was clearly amazed that young people would be allowed to run wild like that with virtual immunity. With the sounds of shattering glass and howled profanity echoing in the street behind me, I had to wonder the same thing.
No real mention of this in the national press that I could see.
But I'm just sitting around this morning, getting ready for work, and CNN breathlessly reports that there was a "Chicago schoolyard riot". All the people interviewed were black.
Well, at least the Seattle riot was multiracial.
Sorry, no more sports for you.
One arrest???
jaysus.
VIRGINIA BEACH A 12-year old girl allegedly confronted by a man exposing himself in an elevator reacted quickly: she grabbed his zipper and yanked up.
The incident happened Monday night in an elevator at the Suburban Lodge, said city police spokesman Mike Carey.
The man was injured, and the girl ran out of the elevator and found her stepfather to tell him what happende, Carey said. The stepfather found the man running from the building, and the two men fought before the suspect broke free and ran away.
Carey said police were checking area hospitals because the man lost blood and probably needed medical treatment.
he may have just been exposing himself...a friend of mine got that a coupla times...guess they're just so fascinated by their wee willies that they need to go showing it around.
he put it back and shirked away.
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) -- A special legislative session called by Gov. Jeb Bush to pass a sweeping education measure ended in chaos Friday over a provision allowing students to pray and speak about religion in schools.
An angry Bush said he would call lawmakers back to Tallahassee next week to try again.
The fight erupted in the Senate, which refused for the second time in two weeks to pass the school code rewrite bill because of the religion provision.
Gee I guess they killed the photographer right after taking it, DAMNED LIBERALS !!!!!
OH THE HUMANITY !!!!!! OH SEAN HANNITY!!!!!
(cue Mariah Carey)
Then I realized that the father--who was murdered by his estranged wife--worked at Remedy Corporation as a software engineer. Many of you know that I've been a consultant specializing in Remedy ARS for about ten years. I didn't know him, although I'd read his technical tips for a number of years.
It's stories like this that get me. Being trapped in an elevator on a burning building is a bad place to be. Being trapped in an elevator on a burning building that is about to collapse is worse. Being trapped in an elevator in a burning building that is about to collapse and has no exit because it's an express elevator with several more yards at least of blank wall above before the next entrance really should be taken as a sign that someone's out to get you.
Not a problem, man. I got my squeegee handy.
The Quebec Human Rights Commission has ordered the pair to pay their gay neighbors $36,000.
Roger Thibault and his partner Theo Wouters have lived in suburban Pointe Claire for more than a quarter century without problems, but five years ago new neighbors made it clear that they did not like living on the same street as gays.
The trouble started with suggestions by Robert Walker that Thibault and Wouters should move from a "family neighborhood." Another neighbor, Greg Inglis, joined Walker in his campaign.
Next came the threats, then their flower beds were destroyed. Finally, Walker allegedly tried to run over the couple with his car.
The commission ruled that the two neighbors infringed on the couple's "dignity and reputation, right to privacy -- and their personal security and integrity."
Walker, who lives next door to the couple, was ordered to pay $30,000. Inglis, who does not have property bordering that of the couple, has been ordered to pay $6,000.
The commission does not have the power to enforce the payment. But if Walker and Inglis do not turn over the money by April 19, the commission's lawyers will take the case to the Quebec Human Rights Tribunal, an independent judicial proceeding that could make the payment legally binding.
"We think there is a case there that could be declared discriminatory by a court," commission spokesman Robert Sylvestre said.
Thibault and Wouters were pleased with the ruling.
"Obviously, we're extremely relieved that the commission has ruled in our favor," Wouters told the Montreal Gazette.
But the legal actions are not over.
Inglis is suing the couple and the TVA television network for defamation of character, and Walker faces multiple charges of harassment in Quebec Superior Court. His trial is to begin Oct. 10.
BAMIYAN, Afghanistan (AP) --Interim Afghan leader Hamid Karzai said Tuesday his government will rebuild the giant statues of Buddha that were destroyed by the Taliban last year.
Karzai made the promise during a brief visit to this central Afghan homeland of the Hazara ethnic minority, which suffered considerable abuse at the hands of the Taliban.
Karzai described the destruction of the statues as ``a national tragedy.'' He gave no idea when his bankrupt government would start on the project.
The statues were chiseled into a cliff more than 1,500 years ago in the central Bamiyan Valley on the ancient Silk Route linking Europe and Central Asia. The fundamentalist Taliban considered them ``idolatrous'' and against the tenets of Islam and blew them up despite an international outcry.
strike any key when ready
strike any key when ready
Police Dog Severs Suspect's Penis
A suspected robber is recovering Monday after a police dog bit him in the crotch, severing his penis, according to a Local 6 News report.
Authorities said that three men walked into the At Cost Liquor Store in Pinellas County, Fla., and allegedly stole a pack of cigarettes.
A store worker reportedly chased the men outside and wrote down the license plate number of the suspects' car.
After a brief chase, the men crashed their car and ran. Police said that a K-9 named "Scooby" caught up with one of the alleged suspects. The dog first bit the suspect on the buttocks and then bit him in the crotch, severing his penis, according to police.
The suspect was rushed to a local hospital where doctors reattached the suspect's penis.
ROANOKE A man found in a diaper and Tweety Bird bib after breaking into a neighbor's apartment was sentance Monday to a four-year prison term for burglary.
Roanoke Circuit Judge Jonathan Apgar sentenced Robert Alan Woods, 31, to two years on the burglary charge and two years for violating his probation on a 1996 conviction for breaking into a closed day care center, where an employee caught him wearing a diaper.
In a letter to the court, Woods apologized to his victim, Tammy Garrett, and added: "My fetish should have been done behind my own closed door and not her apartment. I just don't think about the consequences when I do my baby paraphernalia in other places."
Garrett testified Monday that finding Woods in her bed traumatized her. Even a 911 operator operator laughed when she called for help that day, Garrett said.
"They all think it's a big funny joke, and it's not," she said. "The more they talk about it the more nightmares I have about it."
Can't say I spotted anybody walking around in black.
Or anything at all for that matter.
Guess those rumors of Bin Laden's death were premature.
COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) - The Godfather of Soul performed his hit "I Got You (I Feel Good)" on the steps of the state Capitol as part of a Beach Music Day celebration.
A proclamation was issued by Gov. Jim Hodges declaring James Brown as South Carolina's Godfather of Soul and recognizing the 68-year-old singer for his commitment to music.
It wasn't clear whether Brown would sing, but when the band struck up the chords to "I Got You" during Wednesday's celebration, he took the microphone.
Brown thanked Hodges for the recognition.
"I don't talk that good. I don't sing that good. But I can say, `I feel good!"' he exclaimed.
Following the ceremony Brown swiped a police patrol car and sped away.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Pop a pill, get in shape.
That ultimate fantasy of the couch potato may become a reality some day, according to researchers who have found the chemical pathways that muscle cells use to build strength and endurance.
With this basic knowledge in hand, it now may be possible to develop a pill that pumps up muscle cells without all that exercise, said Dr. R. Sanders Williams, dean of the Duke University of School of Medicine and senior author of a study appearing Friday in the journal Science.
Does this mean sedentary people could build muscle by taking pills?
"That may be one of the possibilities," said Williams, but the main target of the research is to promote the health of people with heart disease or other conditions that keep them from doing enough exercise.
And I'll bet the pistol-packing pizza man gets nice tips.
But I'll keep my opinion to myself - someone who's carrying might disagree.
NEW YORK --Expressing concern about a possible cover-up by Long Island's Roman Catholic diocese, a district attorney Thursday announced he was convening a special grand jury to investigate allegations of sexual abuse by priests and how the allegations were handled by the church.
"From what we have received by way of information so far, it does appear that there has been a cover-up," Suffolk County District Attorney Thomas Spota said.
"The grand jury is being formed because of the serious allegations of sexual misconduct by accused priests," Spota said. "The time has come to investigate not only that matter, but what the Diocese of Rockville Centre has done."
WALKER'S CAY, Bahamas (AP) -- An American scientist was bitten by a shark while teaching a class on shark behavior in the Bahamas, police said.
Erich Ritter, 43, of Fort Lauderdale, Fla., was standing with four students in waist-deep waters off the island of Walker's Cay Tuesday when he was bitten on the leg by what was believed to be a lemon shark, police said.
Ritter lost a large portion of his left calf and went into shock, police said. He was rushed to the airport and taken to a hospital in Palm Beach, Fla.
New Sheriff don't want no lynchin
New Sheriff don't want no lynchin 
The rest of the story...
Having learned the 1,228-mile trip from Wisconsin to Florida by following costumed pilots in ultralight aircraft, five cranes are now heading north on their own, relying on instinct and clues they picked up along the way.
Henry Blodget's official Merrill Lynch rating: BUY!
Henry's private rating POS [piece of shit].
Blodgett's ratings were revealed in emails obtained by NY Attorney General Eliot Spitzer who is attacking Wall Street's most glaring conflict of interest with a vengeance. In taking on Merrill Lynch he has insisted that more footnotes in research reports will not satisfy him. He wants more distance between investment bankers and the analysts who are supposed to be making independent jusdgments about stocks. He has demanded that Merril split off its research department as a separate unit.
He has pledged to make Henry Blodget, Merrill's star Internet stock analyst, testify in public. He has issued subpoenas to several other firms and has said he might also file criminal fraud charges.
From NYT and WSJ articles.
SAN DIEGO (AP) -- The grandson of aviation hero Charles Lindbergh took off from San Diego under hazy skies Sunday on the first leg of an attempt to duplicate his grandfather's historic 1927 solo crossing of the Atlantic.
Erik Lindbergh's flight re-creation is part of the 75th anniversary celebration of Charles Lindbergh's cross-Atlantic flight, which began in San Diego, where the original Spirit of St. Louis was built.
Wearing a blue flight suit, the young Lindbergh, 36, left San Diego's airport, Lindbergh Field, at 9:32 a.m. without speaking to reporters.
He expected to make the trip to St. Louis in nine hours. From there, he plans to fly on April 20 to Farmingdale, N.Y., where he will begin his crossing of the Atlantic on May 1.
I don't agree with everything the writer says in it by a long shot, but I think it's interesting nonetheless.
HELSINKI, Finland April 15 Looking at Anssi Vanjoki's speeding ticket, many Finns are wondering whether their egalitarian spirit has taken them over the edge.
True, Vanjoki was doing 46.5 mph in a 30-mph zone. But $103,000?
The reason the penalty was so harsh is that traffic fines in Finland are based not just on the severity of the offense, but on the offender's income. Vanjoki is a senior executive of Nokia, the world's largest cell phone maker, and his fine was assessed on a 1999 income of $5.2 million.
A court later slashed it to $5,245, but not before Finns flew into a rage.
It's ALIVE: Osama Makes an Appearance (sort of)
SAN FRANCISCO ChevronTexaco Corp. more than doubled the paycheck of CEO David O'Reilly last year, rewarding him with a $3.2 million bonus for engineering a deal that created the nation's second-largest oil company and set the stage for 4,500 job cuts. 
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - An Arab man in Sweden has been paid 165,000 crowns ($16,000) in compensation after being called "Osama bin Laden" by colleagues, a newspaper reported on Sunday.
The man of Iraqi descent was judged by Sweden's ombudsman to have been harassed by his workmates and managers, who also called him "terrorist" and "damned Arab," the Svenska Dagbladet reported.
"The damages were rather high but that's as it should be. It should cost companies where discrimination occurs in the workplace," said a spokeswoman for the ombudsman.
The ombudsman's report found the employer had been aware of the harassment but had not taken action to stop it. Neither the victim nor the employer was identified.
The newspaper said the ombudsman had decided to act more forcefully against companies which failed to tackle ethnic harassment. Some 11 percent of Sweden's 9 million population were born overseas, and 400,000 are Muslims.
Voice is in fine fettle, ready to greet the slimeball with a rousing rendition of Kong Christian stod ved højen mast
"What role did Swedish housing policies play in the mooning of our WarLord on his recent visit?"
In any case, jex, ask the fellow if and how Swedish urban planning helps foster anti-Americanism and support for Bin Laden type terrorism. If he is of the right sort (PC, PC, PC) he will treat you to a tirade on multi-culturalism and structural segregationism.
And he'll be hailed as a hero at SFSU while I get stoned and I ain't talkin Mendecino's finest either.
How about Institute For Housing Research???? 
Sheesh.
I told y'all.
Check Bora Bora.
South China Morning Post
Six Years' Jail for Killing 'Crazy' Wife April 17, 2002
A man who killed his wife during a row said he feared she had gone "crazy" and might harm their two children after she picked up a kitchen knife.
Hui Kwan-yuen,
admitt[ed] killing his wife, Perlita Hui. He was jailed yesterday for six years
after pleading guilty to manslaughter.
The couple began arguing
after their two sons, aged 4 and 5, had been put to bed
Hui told police he became fearful after his wife picked up a kitchen knife.
Hui said he had snatched the knife before forcing his wife into the bedroom, pressing her on to the bed and sitting on her chest. He also grabbed her neck until she stopped moving. It was only when he returned from checking on the children that he found she was dead
[T]he couple's marriage hit the rocks months before the killing as Hui had been laid off from his $17,000 a month job as a car mechanic.
[T]he day before the killing, [Hui] had sold his van against his wife's wishes. During the fight the following day, she told him: "Being a man you are useless if you do not die, (so) you go and die."
[Hui] told police: "She made me fear that she would do something harmful to the two children. There was something wrong, I was very tired and did not know what to do. I lost control and did not want her to be crazy any more."
Mr Justice Gareth Lugar-Mawson took a starting point of nine years' jail for Hui, reducing it by three years for his previous good character and co-operation with police.
But "the unlawful taking of another person's life is such a serious offence that you can't be dealt with leniently", he said.
Ämnesmässigt har IBF en tyngdpunkt i nationalekonomi, sociologi, statsvetenskap och kulturgeografi, men det finns också företrädare för konstvetenskap, statistik, psykologi och ekonomisk historia i vår personal.
Forskningsprogrammen utgör en mix av projekt som antingen följer disciplingränserna eller fokuserar på ett visst tema med deltagare från flera olika discipliner. Det är också detta som är IBFs styrka och som innebär att vi kan bedriva grundforskning av inomvetenskaplig karaktär, samtidigt som vi bedriver riktad grundforskning med sikte på samhällets behov av kunskap inom viktiga politikområden.
Professor of Economics
Director of Institute of Housing Research
Uppsala University, Sweden
in housing class today?
BERLIN (Reuters) - A young German couple hid in a bed shop after closing time and passionately tested the water beds for several hours before being caught by police, officials said Wednesday.
The couple, aged 17 and 21, were discovered by police in the western city of Porta Westfalica after shop alarms went off as they tried to leave through an emergency exit at midnight.
Police said the shop did not press charges against the couple and police let them go with a warning about the costs of false alarms.
WASHINGTON -- U.S. Rep. John Cooksey told supporters of a prominent pro-Israel group that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat suffers from senile dementia.
"This is my diagnosis as a medical doctor," Cooksey, an ophthalmologist, told the American Israel Public Affairs Committee's annual meeting
Sunday in New Orleans.
Next time I go to my opthamologist, I'll be sure to ask what his diagnosis of Sharon is. That way we'll have the complete medical picture of this whole Israel-Palestine conflict.
Clarence "lawn jockey" Thomas voted differently from Massa Scalia for the first time I can recall.
Clarence voted to uphold Net Kiddie porn...figures.
Long Dong Silver...Away! 
With more than 90 considered a high pollen count, the figure of 2,587 set Wednesday in D.C. is incredible.
MILAN (Reuters) - A small tourist plane hit a skyscraper in central Milan Thursday, setting the top floors of the 30-storey building on fire, a police official said.
Eyewitnesses reported hearing a loud explosion from the office block, which houses the administrative offices of the local Lombardy region and sits next to the city's central train station.
....
CNN calls it the Pirelli skyscraper and says two floors are burning.
L O N D O N, April 23 Job seekers visiting the employment office in Ipswich found an unusual offering among the usual advertisements for waiters and nurses: a knife-thrower's assistant was required at the traveling circus performing nearby.
"The right applicant must have confidence and, of course, a certain amount of courage," circus spokeswoman Carrie Harvey said Tuesday.
A few brave souls had already turned up near the southeast England town to audition for a place in the firing line of Jaydee the Knife Thrower. His previous assistant, Yana, has taken another job within the same Cottle and Austen Electric Circus.
True grit is not the only job requirement.
"What we basically want is someone who can drop everything and run away with the circus, and not too many people are in a position to do that," Harvey said.
DUBLIN, Ga. (AP) - A plea for help scrawled on a bathroom wall in Tennessee led to the arrest of a truck driver at a rest stop in Georgia, where police found a woman who said she had been beaten and held against her will for a year.
Katina L. Shaddix, 24, told police she left more than 100 messages in restrooms all over the country.
Maintenance worker Binford Aycock found one, saying, "Won't let me out. Beating me, this is no joke!" while cleaning the restroom at an Interstate 75 rest stop about 6:30 p.m. Friday in McMinn County, Tenn. He called 911.
The message, written in ink marker, named "Cannon truck 383." Officials used a global positioning system to trace the truck to a rest area on Interstate 16 in Georgia. Deputies converged on the truck early Saturday.
YORK, Pa. (AP) -- A man hoping to avoid jail time for a drunken-driving offense made one big mistake -- he showed up to court drunk, authorities said.
Richard M. Schenk, 42, was applying to a probationary program for first-time offenders at York County Common Pleas Court on Monday. But a prosecutor and a sheriff's deputy said they couldn't miss the smell of alcohol on him.
Judge Penny L. Blackwell had a breathalyzer brought from the county probation office, and Blackwell said Schenk registered a blood-alcohol level of 0.197 -- almost twice the legal limit for driving in Pennsylvania.
CHAPPAQUA, N.Y. (AP) --Former President Clinton, who said the death of his dog Buddy was the worst thing to happen to him after leaving the White House, is getting a new puppy that will have a lot of Buddy in him.
The new dog -- another chocolate Labrador retriever-- was sired by Buddy's nephew.
Clinton and his family are ``very excited about the new puppy,'' which will be brought to Chappaqua in a month or so, his spokeswoman Julia Payne said Friday.
HOUSTON (AP) -- The woman serving a life sentence for drowning her young children has signed over movie and publication rights about her case to her attorney to cover mounting legal fees.
No one has bought the rights to Andrea Yates' story yet, defense lawyer George Parnham said.
He said Friday he checked with the state bar before making the deal.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Erik Lindbergh, grandson of pioneer aviator Charles Lindbergh , took off from Long Island amid cheering crowds on Wednesday on a flight to retrace his grandfather's historic solo crossing of the Atlantic Ocean.
Lindbergh's plane, dubbed the New Spirit of St. Louis, took off about 12:15 p.m. from Republic Airport in Farmingdale, New York , headed for Paris.
Wearing a white scarf in memory of his grandfather, Lindbergh waved to the crowd before climbing into the cockpit of his single-engine Lancair Columbia 300.
The flight was originally scheduled to leave about 10:30 a.m., but was delayed so Lindbergh could catch the jet stream he needs in order to meet his goal of making the transatlantic trip in about 16 hours. Charles Lindbergh's historic flight in the original Spirit of St. Louis in 1927 took 33 hours and 29 minutes.
MELBOURNE (Reuters) - Former Sydney Swans Australian Rules player Peter Filandia was suspended for 10 matches on Wednesday after pleading guilty to biting an opponent's testicles during a game last week.
Filandia, 31, was playing for Port Melbourne against Springvale in the Australian Football League's feeder competition, the Victorian Football League (VFL).
St. Kilda AFL player Chad Davis, playing for Springvale, suffered a perforated scrotum and lost a small amount of blood, a club doctor told the VFL tribunal in Melbourne. He also needed a tetanus injection.
By Antigone Barton, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 1, 2002
WEST PALM BEACH -- A landscaper took his own life with a gas-powered chain saw on the top deck of the Esperante Building garage late Monday night, according to police.
A maintenance employee beginning work found Vidal Meneses, 33, dead in the bed of his pickup truck shortly before 6 a.m.
A Stihl chain saw that had cut halfway through his neck from behind was still in his hands, the switch locked open, according to police.
Police do not suspect anyone else was involved in Meneses' death.
FILLMORE, Calif. (AP) -- A California condor -- the last free-flying member of its species when it was taken captive 15 years ago -- was released back into the wild Wednesday.
The bird, shooed by biologists from a clifftop pen, stretched his wings to their full 9-foot span and flew over the Sespe Condor Sanctuary in the Los Padres National Forest.
The condor, released along with a trio of 1-year-old birds, was expected to join his original mate, a female released two years ago. Wednesday's releases boosted the number of condors in the wild to 68.
Condors, the largest birds in North America, nearly vanished in the early 1980s. In 1984, after seven condors died in rapid succession, biologists announced plans to capture the remaining eight wild birds to prevent their extinction.
AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- Former first lady Lady Bird Johnson was hospitalized Thursday night, a longtime family friend said.
The friend, George Christian, said Johnson was in the intensive care unit at Seton Medical Center in Austin.
Pressing the keys on the researchers' laptop computer sent the radio commands to the rat: the J key to steer the rat left, L to turn it to the right and K to provide the reward.
The researchers also used a joystick like that used in video games to guide the rats up ladders, down stairs and across narrow ledges.
TOLEDO, Ohio (AP) -- A fifth-grader said two cafeteria workers put him in a freezer for 10 to 15 minutes as a punishment for throwing food.
The two food-service workers at Spring Elementary School were suspended with pay Thursday.
Frankie Coley, 11, said he and a friend were playing while sitting at a table in the cafeteria when a food-service worker accused him of throwing food.
The cafeteria worker grabbed him by the neck and put him in the walk-in freezer and shut the door, he said. The boy's mother said her son was in the freezer for between 10 and 15 minutes Wednesday when he was asked by a worker whether he had calmed down.
Summers Nearly Here! Toss Some Roadkill on the Grill!
PETA is urging die-hard meat lovers to help save animals by scouring the streets and turning vehicular victims into vittles. If youre wondering why the worlds largest animal rights organization would encourage consumption of roadkill kebabs, read on!
Factory FarmingIts Wheely Awful!
Millions of animals are killed on highways every year, and if just left there to rot, these carcasses go to waste. At PETA, we realize that squirrels are squished by Subarus and possums get plowed over by Pathfinders. We dont like it, but it happens. At least, with these animals, theres a good chance that Thumper was scampering about, happy and free, until that final moment when the Rabbit came around the corner. Odds are, he never knew what hit him.
Summers Nearly Here! Toss Some Roadkill on the Grill!
PETA is urging die-hard meat lovers to help save animals by scouring the streets and turning vehicular victims into vittles. If youre wondering why the worlds largest animal rights organization would encourage consumption of roadkill kebabs, read on!
Factory FarmingIts Wheely Awful!
Millions of animals are killed on highways every year, and if just left there to rot, these carcasses go to waste. At PETA, we realize that squirrels are squished by Subarus and possums get plowed over by Pathfinders. We dont like it, but it happens. At least, with these animals, theres a good chance that Thumper was scampering about, happy and free, until that final moment when the Rabbit came around the corner. Odds are, he never knew what hit him.
Tired of Vegetarians Driving You Nuts With Guilt Trips About Factory Farming? Then, Drive by and Dig in! Make no mistakePETA has and will always urge people to kick their unhealthy meat addictions. Medical experts agreeits better for human health not to consume artery-clogging animal flesh. Still, the fact remains that many meat addicts cling to their chicken wings as tightly as 2-year-olds cling to their blankies. But rather than condemn billions of thinking, feeling animals to factory-farm miseries, die-hard meat-eaters can help clear their consciencesand the streetsby eating roadkill. Remember, no pesticides, no growth stimulants or hormones, and no antibiotics went into their food. Roadkill is natural, organic, and pesticide-free!
It looks just like Hamburger
LITTLETON, Colo. - Colorado officials plan to try a 15-year-old boy as an adult for allegedly offering a Sony PlayStation to have his aunt killed.
Officials say the Arapahoe County student offered the video game and $1,000 to a classmate for the hit. Deputies say the boy made the offer three times to at least one teenager, boosting the offer each time.
Deputies say the other teen got scared and told his parents.
The boy's next court appearance is June 20. He faces five counts of solicitation to commit first-degree murder.
The teen allegedly told his classmate he wanted the aunt dead because he hated her.
H'Angus the Monkey has been elected mayor of Hartlepool in a victory for the mascot of the town's football team.
H'Angus, also known as Stuart Drummond, beat off opposition from the main political parties to land the £53,000-a-year job as local talisman.
The mascot's vote-winning slogan was "free bananas for schoolchildren".
Despite the embarrassment Downing Street insisted that elected mayors were "the way forward".
Hartlepool's residents are famously said to have hanged a monkey during the Napoleonic wars because they thought it was a French spy.
Mr Drummond is well-known in the town for his frolics as mascot for Hartlepool United Football Club, nicknamed the Monkey Hangers by their rivals.
He has been thrown out of two away games, once when he simulated sex with a woman steward in Scunthorpe in 2000 and a year ago for his antics with an inflatable doll at Blackpool.
How the 28-year-old will handle his new responsibilities in running the local council has yet to be seen. 
Pennsylvania used to have a program set up for using roadkill deer as food for some of the homeless shelters in Philadelphia. I don't know if the program is still in place, or how successful it was, but lord knows there were always plenty of dead deer next to the roads where I lived.
The five naked eye planets grouped in the evening sky.
ALl of which suggests a list of stoopid Texas town names...
Happy and my personal favorite HUMBLE( howzat for an oxymoron!!!!) head my list of nominees
I was very worried that it was an immigrant Muslim.
Borderline Hitler or does he have a point?
It is a bit of irony, if true, if he was killed by an animal rights activist.
Great --now the copycats are following suit.
he looks like a terrorist to me...but then I'm much more fearful of clean cut white kids than I am of shaggy Arabs.
Suspect a huge Nirvana fan, an industrial design major, uses email address 'dirdjew':
BIO: "He digs Nirvana (and Cobain) a great deal, and that's pretty evident in, well, his life! Most of his songs are very Nirvana-esque, which of course is not a bad thing! Luke goes to UW-Stout and he made some kick-ass Apathy stickers to hand out. Dude, the stickers rule."
Remember this the next time you wonder why I think you're an idiot.
Well, I don't know about the clean-cut part. There are some pretty scruffy crankheads I wouldn't want to depend on for help with a flat.
That kid looks a bit like eminem.
RENO, Nev. (AP) - The 21-year-old college student wanted in the string of pipe bombs left in mailboxes across the Midwest was arrested Tuesday outside Reno, the FBI said.
Luke J. Helder of Pine Island, Minn., was taken into custody without incident after dropping at least one gun out a car window, said Alan Davidson, spokesman for the Nevada Highway Patrol.
It is the best odds source of aid in the country to anybody, white or not.
Your position is like being more afraid of sober drivers than drunk drivers, because more sober drivers are involved in traffic accidents than are drunk drivers.
Yes, and then you say you don't know about the "clean cut" part, which was a fairly big plot point.
And while you are right in numbers, you are not correct in percentages. Cleancut white kids, percentage wise, are far less likely to be terrorists than any shaggy Arab.
Not in the US.
Besides, the subject is who a white American woman has more cause statistically to be fearful of, so we can determine whether Betty's really an idiot.
You'll notice that I was careful to make clear my personal prejudices, and to identify them as such. Now had I been repeatedly brutalized in a number of ways by "shaggy Arabs", it would make sense for me to be more fearful of them than clean-cut white men. but frankly it's significantly more logical and intelligent to be fearful of a group that has demonstrated violence within your life. Being fearful of "Shaggy Arabs" would be completely irrational given that I have never personally experienced violence at the hands of a member of that demographic group and my fear would be based on hearsay and media sources...both unrealiable compared to my immediate experiences.
Now perhaps relying on immediate experience and not basing my life on "facts and statistics" makes me a complete idiot, but I don't think this is really your concern is it Cal? you've been on pretty good behaviour and yer itching for a fight. You need to demonstrate to all that you are tough and smart and superior in every way.
My gosh, I would have never expected that from you. You've got more money than I do, shouldn't you be able to buy some self-esteem?
The fact that you have been "repeatedly brutalized" by white guys has nothing to do with the relative frequency of their terrorist acts. Because, you see, Acts Against Betty are not counted as terrorism.
Being that I am the Supreme and Holy Queen, of course Acts Against Betty are terrorism...
anyway, you are not tracking and i can see that your vibrator must be out of batteries so this is useless, but i'm an idiot so i will try just once more.
He looks like a terrorist to me because in the US, terrorism has been committed by white men more than it has been committed by any other group.
My second comment is related to the first but the first is not dependent upon the second. I am more fearful of "Clean-Cut white Men" than I am of "shaggy Arabs" because of unmediated experiences of violence.
there is a commonality to these comments, which is evidence of White Male violence, but they do not form an "argument" (as one would see in philosophy).
As your only contention was with my second comment as cited in Message # 22883, it appears to me that you believe one's fears are to be based solely on global statistics and should discount personal and localized experience. this seems foolish to me, but indeed you should live your life as you wish.
"... Felbers! email the Adam. Tuesday, May 07, 2002. Hi! This site has nothing
to do with Luke Helder, pipe bombs, and the band "Apathy.". ... " 
He just wanted to make a smiley face.
LOS ANGELES (AP) - Brian "Kato" Kaelin wants to play house guest again, and maybe with you.
Kaelin has shot a pilot episode for a television series, "House Guest," aimed at capitalizing on his fame as O.J. Simpson's former live-in friend.
"It's a show where I go across America, I knock on doors of the unsuspecting and invite myself in to spend a weekend with the family," Kaelin told Barbara Walters on ABC's "20/20" Wednesday.
The families of 11 immigrants who died illegally crossing
into Arizona from Mexico have filed a $41 million claim
against two federal agencies, saying the government's refusal
to put water out in the desert contributed to the migrants'
deaths.
No one may sue for any consequences suffered as the result, or in the commission of, any illegal activity. 
The Lukie John B Free Legal Defense Fund
State Department Travel Advisory...
The State Department today warned Incubus of Jesus (aka JT, aka Pere du Lunchmoney) and Concerned (aka ThomasD for Daschole) against travel to Germany due to a high risk of prosecution under the Federal Republic's Dumkopf statute
MIAMI Singer Dionne Warwick was arrested Sunday when baggage screeners at Miami International Airport said they found 11 suspected marijuana cigarettes inside her lipstick container.
A judge ruled on Friday that a 17-year-old Toronto teen, Marc Hall, could take his boyfriend to the prom that evening.
Superior Court Justice Robert MacKinnon ruled just after 2 p.m. that a section of the Canadian Constitution that gives certain protections to the Roman Catholic school system does not mean the schools can do whatever they want in name of religion.
Marc Hall is my New Hero!
It really isn't that hard for a 16-year old to date a 20-year old.
I had linked the above article before.
Follow-up by The New Yorker
A YEAR OF TROUBLE by MARK SINGER -- A city subverts itself (or, more on the wages of race hustling)
You and I don't have to live there, so when hundreds more flee (or get shot) post-race hustling, it is no big thing. The play is the thing! The average man (black or white) is just a pawn for our outrage. So, if Cincy becomes another Detroit, so be it. The specifics of the articles, including the disingenuous nature of the hustlers, the rotting of the city, the flight of businesses and taxpayers of all races, and the selling of tragedy for maximum outrage must give way.
To what? To super-maximum outrage!
In a legal complaint that reads like a nightmare scenario from the graphic HBO prison drama Oz, the ACLU detailed the story of 33-year-old Navy veteran Roderick Johnson of Marshall, Texas, who for the last 18 months has been bought and sold by gangs, raped, abused, and degraded nearly every day.
Prison officials knew that gangs made Roderick Johnson their sex slave and did nothing to help him, said Margaret Winter, Associate Director of the ACLU's National Prison Project. Our lawsuit shows that Texas prison officials think black men cant be victims and believe gay men always want sex -- so they threw our client to the wolves.
Gangs and other prisoners often prey upon prisoners who are gay, as well as those who are young, small, mentally or physically disabled, first-time offenders, shy, perceived as weak, or possessing feminine characteristics, Winter said. In Texas and elsewhere, individuals identified with one or more of these vulnerable characteristics typically qualify for a prison classification known as safe keeping or protective custody.
Johnson, who is serving time for bouncing a $300 check while on parole for a non-violent crime, informed the prisons staff of his sexual orientation during the intake process. But after leaving the intake unit he was placed in general population. The result, according to the ACLU complaint, was devastating.
The complaint describes how gang members negotiated fees of $5 to $10 for sex with Johnson. He was told that if he refused, he would be beaten and killed. As a sexual slave, he was repeatedly penetrated anally and forced to perform oral sex at the command of gang members, the complaint said.
Texas was identified as the worst state in the nation for prison rape in Human Rights Watchs 2001 book-length report, No Escape: Male Rape in U.S. Prisons. Independent observers, including a federal judge, have said that some prisoners in Texas are vulnerable and need protection -- which they are not getting.
Evidence has shown that, in fact, prison officials deliberately resist providing reasonable safety to inmates. The result is that individual prisoners who seek protection from their attackers are either not believed, disregarded, or told that there is a lack of evidence to support action by the prison system, wrote U.S. District Judge William Wayne Justice, in a class-action case about Texas prison conditions that has spanned 30 years. He also said evidence revealed a prison underworld in which rapes, beatings, and servitude are the currency of power.
Nationally, the ACLU has received hundreds of complaints about rape and sexual assault of prisoners. The ACLUs National Prison Project recently filed a lawsuit in Colorado on behalf of a woman who was sexually assaulted while being transported between jails after her arrest. Other cases are being investigated and the ACLU plans to file additional lawsuits in the near future.
Cripes:
Elementary school runs from 8:15 a.m. to 3:15 a.m.
Wilcox suggests changing that to 8:35 a.m. to 3:35 p.m.
Middle and high school hours, from 7:15 a.m. to 2:35 p.m., would stay the same.
Much of the debate has centered on competing claims of educational research.
Some elementary principals say the schedule is backward.
They argue younger students are more attentive earlier in the morning and lose steam later in the day.
Let's get things entirely backwards, shall we? If school starts at 8:35, that probably means I can't drop my kid off until 8 at the earlies, which means I have to go to work at 8:30, which means I work until 5. Grrr. Currently, son's extended day ends at 5:15. Think they'll be clever enough to push that back with the shift in schedule?
Even if he rides the bus, it probably won't come until after 7:30, which makes getting to work at 8 hard.
And HS kids starting at 7:15 is beyond stupid. What teenagers are functional at that hour?
Those waiting in line for Star Wars tickets.
And his "boyfriend" is 21. And they have been "dating" for a year. Egro, when he was 16, he was dating a 20 year old.
Spitwad Felon
Jeffrey Figueroa has a lot to be worried about. The CoCo 7th grader has been convicted of two felony counts for shooting a spitwad at school that accidentally landed in another student's eye. The student required surgery, and now Jeffrey could face up to 8 years in the California Youth Authority.
www.scottsman.com
Fortuyn favoured depraved
MARCELLO MEGA AND JUSTIN SPARKS
PIM Fortuyn, the charismatic right-wing Dutch politician murdered last week was a powerful advocate or
paedophilia, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
His controversial views on race, immigration, liberalisation of drug laws and his open homosexuality were well-known. But his approval of paedophilia, while not a secret, was ignored by Dutch journalists covering his election campaign.
Fortuyn stood to gain up to 20% of the vote in Wednesday's election and his list is expected to gain thousands of extra votes.
Ireen Van Engelen, an anti-paedophile campaigner in Holland, said: "I have been writing to journalists around the country for months as Fortuyn's popularity grew. I was asking them to challenge him on his views about paedophilia. But none of them dared. I also wrote to ministers, but none of them were interested. It's a disgrace.
"It is strange that they could criticise him, quite rightly, for being racist, but were unwilling to raise this other matter. I can't say for sure that he was a paedophile himself, but he was certainly an advocate for adult-child sex."
Van Engelen cites a column Fortuyn wrote for the Dutch current affairs magazine, Elsevier, in 1999. It was so on-message for pro-paedophile campaigners that it was reproduced by Koinos, a magazine for homosexual paedophiles.
In his article, Fortuyn wrote: "Paedophilia is just like hetero and homosexuality. It is something that is in the genes. There is little if anything that you can do about it or against it. You are who you are
sooner or later the proclivity makes its irresistible appearance. It is not any more curable than hetero or homosexuality."
"In the 1970s and 1980s, Brongersma slowly but surely gained ground. After the invention of the Pill came sexual liberation. Gay sex became accepted, and why then should paedo sex not be allowed under the strict condition that the child is willing and that there is no coercion? This enlightened point of view has meanwhile been abandoned, and under the influence of the ologists, the child is defined as totally
devoid of sexual desires, at least where adults are concerned.
"We are far removed from the understanding that Brongersma tried to foster, to our own detriment, for that matter. For everything which can be discussed is in principle also manageable, one would think!"
In the last week, Fortuyn has been lionised in the Dutch media. Thousands of mourners have paid their respects and many more have promised to vote for the list of candidates that still bears his name. In their sense of shock many in Holland have lost sight of Fortuyn's controversial ideas and instead focused on his image as a colourful and entertaining maverick.
"The killing has produced a sort of Dutch 'Diana' effect," said Fred Spier, a social anthropologist at Amsterdam University. "Tens of thousands of people who previously had no sympathy for Mr Fortuyn have joined his supporters all across the country in a mass outpouring of grief. He has turned from the bad man of right-wing politics into a fallen national hero overnight.''
In 1998, Fortuyn published an autobiographical work called Babyboomers, the name given to children born in the post-war years up to 1953. He reveals that he had early sexual experiences with adult males, which he claims to have found pleasurable and exciting. His logic is that because he enjoyed sexual experiences with adult men as a child, it should be legal.
Fortuyn's first experience occurred when he was five years old. "The Dutch soldier asks if I want to see his tent. That's what I want. I like it and they all are sleeping on the ground in a sleeping-bag. I ask if it is hard and cold to sleep on the ground. Oh no, come here. Together we crawl in his sleeping-bag. The soldier asks my name and I ask his name.
He is called Arie and he asks if I like that name. Yes, I think that's a nice name and I lie beside him, nice and warm."
Fortuyn then described a close sexual encounter with the soldier before leaving his sleeping-bag "to go and play outside." He added: "Can I come back tomorrow? Yes, tomorrow I may come back, says Arie."
A few pages later, he describes another incident: "I went to the park for a walk, it was very silent and the sun was shining. On the bench sat a young fellow. I stood still, curious."
Most telling is his appraisal of these memories. "In chapter 1 about the 1950s, I wrote about my early sexual experiences, experiences that I see as an enrichment. Today, an experience like that in the ppark could easily lead to a complaint by parents to the police because of paedophilia, and the relevant young man would be in trouble. But why?
"He didn't do me any harm. On the contrary, he showed me something that was incomprehensibly exciting and I could feel and touch it, but today we are ready to interfere with complete teams of professionals. By interfering in such an irritating and grown-up way in the world of children, we make an
enormous problem of something that for a child is no problem at all and is only exciting."
Van Engelen said: "The problem with Pim Fortuyn was that he never grew up. In his mind he stayed a little boy. A lot of Dutch men recognised that. That's what made him so popular, among other things. It's a pity that we no longer have the opportunity to challenge him about these views. He did not seem willing to recognise that a child will be harmed by sex with an adult."
GREAT FALLS (AP) - A 22-year-old Great Falls man shot off his right testicle Friday while stuffing a .40-caliber semiautomatic handgun in his waistband, police said.
Officer Keith Perkins said the man, whom he declined to identify, was upset because a buddy had been cut in a bar fight and several friends, including the 22-year-old, were in a parking lot looking for the culprits in the predawn hours.
"When the group decided not to do what they were going to do, he decided he was going to take the gun back home," Perkins said.
The man, who had been drinking, shot off his testicle, injured his penis and put a hole in his right thigh, the officer said. A friend took him to the hospital.
The officer said police initially thought of ticketing the man for disorderly conduct but likely won't, under the circumstances.
Scientists at the Agriculture Department of the Hebrew University in Rehovot have genetically engineered a chicken that has no feathers. The naked chicken as it has been dubbed is also a low calorie bird because the lack of feathers means the chicken has less fat. (Hebrew University via Reuters)
Damn.
(I don't know how the Republicans managed to pull THIS one off, but I gotta admit they're damn good.)
And you should be thankful. After all the prevaricating, following by the backing and covering that the Democrats had to do on this, the saner ones are more than happy to drop this self inflicted fiasco.
WASHINGTON, May 22 Skeletal remains found early Wednesday in Washingtons Rock Creek Park are those of missing former intern Chandra Levy, law enforcement sources told the Associated Press.
But is Rosie o Jesus???
LONDON (Reuters) - The remains of a young Roman man who dressed as a woman and probably castrated himself show a previously unknown side of Britain's ancient history, archaeologists said Tuesday.
Excavations at Catterick, northern England, unearthed the skeleton of a fourth century man buried wearing a jet necklace and bracelet, a shale armlet and a bronze anklet.
"He is the only man wearing this array of jewelry who has ever been found from a late Roman cemetery in Britain," Dr. Pete Wilson, senior archaeologist at English Heritage told Reuters.
Geography champ knows his place
McCarter is taught at home by his mother, Charlotte. His father, Parnell McCarter, an accountant, said the family decided on home schooling to have their children receive a Christian education ``in an atmosphere where there is a love of learning.''
McCarter won by knowing that the Kamchatka Peninsula separates the Bering Sea from the Sea of Okhotsk.
One thing not mentioned in this Herald piece is that 3 of the ten finalists (including McCarter) were home schooled.
Where's MsIvoryTower? Tampa, Florida - An unwitting Florida mother discovered much to her dismay this week that a toll-free telephone number listed in a children's book, promising kids they can talk to cartoon characters, is actually the number for a telephone sex service.
On Monday, Anne Weller, an elementary school teacher in Saint Petersburg, Florida, dialed 1-800-CURIOUS, which was listed in her seven-year-old son JJ's copy of Scooby-Doo, Teacher's Pet.
But when the call was connected, instead of hearing the voice of the much-beloved cartoon mutt, she heard: "This is your chance to talk with sexy women for $3,99 a minute."
...
Scholastic had recalled 300 000 copies of Scooby-Doo, Teacher's Pet last December because of the sex line number, according to The Saint Petersburg Times.
"My son's biggest disappointment is that he didn't get to talk to Scooby-Doo as the book promised," laughed Weller.
LONDON (Reuters) - A British man who stripped in front of the queen has had his special Velcro-fastened streaking trousers confiscated, Newcastle-upon-Tyne magistrates court said Thursday.
"They've got to be forfeited and destroyed," a spokeswoman for the court said, adding that the man would not be jailed providing he behaved well for 12 months.
Brynn Reed, 27, admitted indecent exposure during a visit by the queen to the northern English city earlier this month, when he ran naked alongside her car with the words "Rude Britannia" on his buttocks.
LOS ANGELES (AP) - A large residential building was rocked by an explosion and erupted in flames Friday. There was no immediate word on whether anyone was hurt.
The blast hit the building in the Encino area of the San Fernando Valley about 11 a.m., Fire Department spokesman Bob Collis said.
Building debris littered the area around the complex.
SAN SALVADOR (Reuters) - El Salvador long has been portrayed as a violent land of men with guns, but one security guard in a dangerous suburb of the capital used a toy pistol on the job, and no one knew the difference.
The fake weapon was discovered by National Civil Police among unregistered arms being used by security agencies, officials said on Friday.
The guard, one of 18,000 private security agents in the crime-ridden Central American country, at first refused to give up his gun and officials were unaware it was fake, local press said. Apparently, nor were would-be assailants in the crowded San Salvador suburb of Soyapango.
04-27-2002
Bill and other tinfoil hat folk can be found here.
My name is Bill Eblin and I now live in Columbus Ohio. I moved here from Ft. Lauderdale Florida to get away from the people whom at the time, I just thought were stalking me. I knew they were using satellites, but at the time, I didn't think they would want to follow me to Columbus, some 1300 miles away from where this all started.
Since moving here in September of 2001, I have learned more and more about the type of torture and virtual prison sentence they have self imposed on me. In addition to the regular communications satellites they use, they have a couple they now use that have Remote Piloting capabilities. The micrwaves they use from these satellites in conjunction with a set of six pairs of Virtual Reality glasses allows them to just point and shoot at me with out any physical intervention from what I can tell, and these Virtual Reality Glasses also give them the capability to READ MY MIND. Of course, they do have some flaws in their testing methodology of this technology, namely they have no clue in what they are doing as they have told me. They just can't stop.
P A R I S, May 28 They wore suits, ties and gloves, looking like the perfect clients for the upscale jewelry house Fred. But their bouquet of flowers was armed with tear gas, and they escaped with $5.5 million worth of jewels.
Police were still searching Tuesday for the two men who held up the jeweler during the weekend on the Place Vendome, one of the most posh squares in Paris.
The men walked into the jewelry shop late Saturday morning, police said. One disabled the guard with the tear gas while the other produced a hammer and smashed two glass cases of jewelry, according to the police account.
Two to three salespersons were in the shop at the time, along with two clients. No one was reported injured.
The thieves walked out of the store with a diamond necklace, a diamond bracelet and a diamond broach and seven rings.
CAIRO, Egypt May 28 In the latest display of intense anti-Israeli sentiments, Egyptians can now munch on potato chips sold in bags bearing an image of Yasser Arafat, complete with his hallmark military fatigue and black-and-white checkered Arab headdress.
The new bag is printed in the Palestinian colors of green, red, black and white. At the center stands a rotund, wide-eyed Arafat, saluting with his right hand and holding a Palestinian flag with the other. The name of the new brand is "Abu Ammar," Arafat's nom de guerre. In smaller print, the words "hero of the struggle" appear below the name.
SYDNEY, Australia May 28 The extinct Tasmanian tiger may one day roar back to life, Australian scientists said Tuesday, announcing they have taken some steps to clone the animal by replicating DNA from preserved specimens.
"What was once nothing more than an impossible dream has just taken another giant step closer to becoming a biological reality," said Mike Archer, director of the Australian Museum, which is backing the project.
However, reproductive biologists were highly skeptical of plans to clone the Tasmanian tiger, or thylacine. The wolf-sized, tiger-striped, carnivorous marsupial native to Australia that was hunted to extinction by farmers who blamed it for attacking sheep. The last known specimen died in captivity in 1936.
ROME (Reuters) - The headline news Monday was sadly familiar for most Italians -- a high speed car chase in southern Italy ends in a deadly shootout between rival Mafia families. But these were not the usual suspects.
The gun-toting clan leaders Sunday night were 50-something Italian mamas and teenage girls, police said.
"Obviously things are changing even in these feuds," the Corriere della Sera newspaper wrote Monday.
- Rosie O'Donnell won the In award for celebrities who should never have come out in the first place,
-Mary Cheney won the Helping Right-Wingers Cope crown,
- George W. Bush and [SF Supe] Gavin Newsom tied in the straights-only Legends category. Afterward 
PHOENIX (Reuters) -Authorities have shut down a local company and seized $30 million of its assets for allegedly selling bogus penile enlargement pills over the Internet, state officials said on Wednesday.
C.P. Direct, based in Scottsdale, Arizona, was put out of business and its Web sites closed following complaints about the company and its product that promised results within months of taking its supposedly potent yet costly "Longitude" pill, officials said.
Does this mean the spam in my old Hotmail account will drop by about 95%?
MEXICO CITY (Reuters)June 1 - Twenty-six peasants were ambushed and murdered in southern Mexico, apparently killed by rival farmers in a long-running land dispute, officials said on Saturday.
The victims were all shot to death late on Friday after armed men stopped the truck they were traveling in on a remote country road in the dirt-poor state of Oaxaca.
"They told the driver and his son to leave and at that very moment they opened fire on the people inside the truck," the state attorney general's office said in a statement.
"It was an ambush on open ground. We still don't know the motive but there are land conflicts in that area," a state government source said.
ZURICH (Reuters) - Switzerland voted in a referendum Sunday to relax its strict abortion laws, bringing legislation in line with current practice and most other European countries.
Results from 25 out of 26 cantons, or provinces, indicated 72 percent of voters were backing a proposal to allow abortions up to the 12th week of pregnancy.
The results showed 81 percent rejected a rival proposal to ban abortion completely.
CALGARY, Alberta (Reuters) - Three men were sent to hospital after being hit with mallets and nine people were arrested following a vicious brawl between croquet and softball players in this western Canadian city.
One man was in a hospital trauma center with life-threatening head injuries following the melee at a Calgary, Alberta athletic field, police and paramedics said on Wednesday. Alcohol was said to be a factor. (I'll just bet it was...)
The justices let stand a U.S. appeals court ruling that Calvin Burdine deserved a new trial because his lawyer dozed off frequently enough and for long enough stretches to deprive him of his constitutional right to effective legal assistance.
(Houston Chronicle)---Charles Dana Rice, senior vice president and treasurer of El Paso Corp., was found dead Sunday afternoon at his River Oaks home, the victim of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound.
From Africa With Sympathy for 9/11
Naiyomah left Stanford and returned to Enoosaen last month to attend a weeklong rite-of-passage ceremony that made him a junior elder in the village. One night, when the other young men gathered under a tree to tell stories, Naiyomah recounted the horrors he witnessed in September during a visit to New York. He told them how "buildings that almost touched the clouds" tumbled down after terrorists crashed two planes into the World Trade Center, how desperate people jumped out of the burning buildings to their deaths and how hundreds of rescuers died trying to save people.
"Everybody was shocked," said William Oltetia, the 20-year-old chief of Enoosaen's warriors. Oltetia said that he had not heard about the terrorist attacks.
Others in Enoosaen said that they knew vaguely about Sept. 11 but that Naiyomah's account brought the tragedy to life.
Osama Bin Laden became a household word. People who are unpopular in the village are now known simply as Osamas.
"We don't have anyone as cruel as him," said James Ngodia, 44. "This man is a world enemy. If he comes to Masailand, we will surely kill him with our spears and arrows."
Naiyomah proposed to village elders that they do something to help America.
Within a week, 14 people pledged their cows. Those who donated said they wanted to express their condolences but also show their gratitude to the United States for taking care of Naiyomah and for helping the village.
LONDON (Reuters) -Swimmers have been warned to stay away from a sexually frustrated dolphin off an English seaside resort after it tried to lure unwary humans out to sea in a bid to mate with them.
The Times newspaper said on Tuesday that the bottlenose dolphin, nicknamed Georges, had arrived off Weymouth, Dorset , about two months ago after following a trawler across the Channel.
"This dolphin does get very sexually aggressive. He has already attempted to mate with some divers," U.S. marine mammal expert Ric O'Barry told the paper.
"When dolphins get sexually excited, they try to isolate a swimmer, normally female. They do this by circling around the individual and gradually move them away from the beach, boat or crowd of people."
O'Barry said the dolphin, which weighs an estimated 400 lbs (180 kg), would get very excited and rough and try to mate with the swimmer, possibly causing them to drown.
SAN DIEGO (Reuters) - A naked man in a Jeep caused a truckload of trouble for police in front of a shopping mall on Sunday, running over one motorcycle officer before surrendering after police opened fire in a car chase.
Officers surrounded the sport utility vehicle at about 5:30 a.m. PDT near a San Diego shopping mall after briefly pursuing the driver for committing an act of indecent exposure -- riding naked in the open Jeep.
After stopping briefly, the driver sped off, striking the motorcycle officer, who was treated at the scene for minor injuries. Another officer followed the driver and fired several shots, shattering the vehicle's windows but not striking the man.
The man was pulled over a short time later and arrested.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-father7jun07.story
Thanks for your patience 8-)
BEIJING (Reuters) - Beijing's most popular newspaper has unwittingly republished a bogus story about U.S. Congress threats to skip town for Memphis or Charlotte unless Washington builds them a new Capitol building with a retractable dome.
The source? America's celebrated spoof tabloid, the Onion.
The Beijing Evening News, which claims a circulation of 1.25 million, translated portions of the Onion's tall tale word-for-word in the international news page of its June 3 edition.
The reprinted version of the May 29 article, which parodies Congress as a Major League Baseball squad, also copied the Onion's would-be blueprint for a new legislative home that resembles a ballpark. "Don't get us wrong: We love the drafty old building," the Onion quoted House Speaker Dennis Hastert as saying.
...
"The story was written by one of our freelance writers," an editor at the Evening News told Reuters on Friday. "His stuff has been pretty much reliable before."
The editor said he had received other calls from readers about the article. "They were also suspicious of the contents."
I was watching a flabbergasted Jeffrey Toobin today, who said that the prosecution's closing argument was brilliant.
I have not been paying close attention to the case, but I do wonder why Skakel told several people he did the crime - unless, of course, the reason was that he DID do the crime. Did the defense offer an explanation?
The makers of the film "Natural Born Killers" can't be held responsible for an Oklahoma couple's decision to act out the movie's violent plot and turn fantasy into reality, a state appeals court has ruled.
Without controversy or no one will care... or no how to debate issues once they get to college. Of course... there are those that have been trying to eliminate controversial and critical thought from college as well.
edit
Things like that get into court becuase some people have some real skewed sense of reality in this country in terms of where blame should be placed...
it's the movies, not the person...
it's the gun manufacturers, not the murderer...
the manufacturer didn't put a sticker on my lawnmower telling me I shouldn't prune my bushes with it...
it's the aggressive ads, not the smoker...
Let's hear it for any case that advocates personal responsibility.
amen to that
When someone makes the claim that a business inserted a thought into your head... I don't buy it.
Everyone knows murder is wrong. You will never convince me that a movie can fundamentally influence peoples behavior. Those people who mimicced natural born killers were already whacked in their head and were probably already pre-disposed to do violence against others. It ain't the movie.
I don't believe gun companies are responsible for someone who kills someone with a gun. It's the murderer.
I don't think McDonalds is to blame when someone puts hot coffee in their lap on purpose.
It seems a large number of lawsuits started by people who aren't willing to accept any responsibility for their own actions.
I wouldn't defend a company that produced an inherently unsafe product... it gets pretty grey with things like the firestone tires on explorers. Many blowouts occur because people drive on underinflated tires and don't check their pressure regularly... seems like these firestones were succeptible to failure when underinflated. Yet how often do each of you check your tire pressures? I check mine regularly.
Not only that they create a really bizzare relationship between businesses and customers. I've called some companies for information about their product and they've refused to give me any help because of liability concerns.
I'm behind on some work I'm doing because I need to use a radial arm saw to cut some materials for my field work. The company I'm working with won't let me in their shop because of the liability. Now I'm about 3 weeks behind waiting for their people to work it into their schedule.
Americans are full of excuses about why their life isn't right. Always someone to blame: unethical businesses... the system...
We had a article in the paper about how badly in debt students here are. They blame it on all the credit card companies aggresively sending applications. Bullshit. Those students have no spending discipline, and they have no one to blame but themselves for getting into so much debt. No one forces them to fill out the application.
People who have eating disorders claim that it's fashion magazines that give them a poor self image that causes their problems. It's a disorder, and it's sad, but they would have that low self esteem whether the magazines touched up pictures or not... an no one is forcing them to buy those magazines.
The mote is fun but I am so swamped with work it's hard to post if when I can't afford the follow up posts.
You guys are also sticklers for well crafted thought... not that my thoughts are always well-crafted, but it still takes time.
When I took out my first loan ($1,500 for a used Fiat 850) back in 1976, I was required to have a co-signer who impressed upon me the importance of re-payment and the consequences of non-payment. The amount was comparitively small and I had to handle the responsibility well in order to receive more credit in the future.
In short, if you make quick and easy loans to people with no jobs and no credit history, I think you bear part of the responsibility for subsequent default.
Jealousy isn't a pretty thing.
(blush)
i think our last few POTUSs have proven this to be a falsehood.
Or in hell, whichever.
The report said that something on the order of 30% of the students here has $10,000 or more in just credit card debt and had on average 5 credit cards.
Please.
If you have a student loan, that should be even more incentive to manage your money wisely, not load up on credit card debt at credit card interest.
As they say buyer beware. The failure of someone to explore the risks of debt is their own fault.
Political speech is differnt from commercial speech intended to sell a product.
i think our last few POTUSs have proven this to be a falsehood.
Rducky, I did not mean political commercials as political speech. Political speech is giving your opinion on a political issue which is your constitutional right. In it's most extreme form it means burning the flag, which even Scalia said is protected speech.
I will openly say I am far less inclined to place the blame on companies that market to high-risk borrowers. Companies who loan to high risk borrowers bear far less responsibility than the borrower.
These people are adults... they should be able to make decisions for themselves. I definitely roll my eyes when they sniffle and tell me how it's not theif fault while they get into that Lexus.
It's the same bizarre value system that produces Cadilac owners on welfare with cable TV, cell phones, and gold teeth etc.
They make their decisions. I've made mine and I'm happy to say I'm debt free. The only debt I believe in is a house and car anyway.
i agree. unfortunately, i was one of those said college students who ran up a lot of debt. i just assumed my high paying job would take of it when i graduated... sigh.
it sucked, but taught me a valuable lesson that more people need to learn later in life. not the best way to learn it, but that got through when my parents didn't.
i was mostly being sarcastic
Personally, I think that targeting credit cards to college students is irresponsible of the credit card companies. But I guess they have no responsibility except to make a buck.
I'm not purely libertarian but close enough on this subject. Government's roll in this is through education, not by allowing the few people ballsy enough to sue to make a fuckload of money off of a mistake that is very much under their control.
I don't trust advertisers... talk about the ultimate bias. I take everything they say with an absolute grain of salt. Anyone who believes what an ad says as gospel truth deserves what they get.
I deviate from libertarians a bit on drug policy because I'm not really for the legalization of hard drugs... but I also am disgusted with our nations totally ineffective 'war on drugs'. I personally want to see a war on violent crime. It's sick that the average murderer and rapist in this country serve 5 and 3 yrs respectively, while marijuana possession in a national park gets you 5 years minimum.
I don't do drugs either... it's fucking idiotic.
Keeping your head above water
Making a wave when you can
Temporary Layoffs-good times
Easy Credit ripoffs-Good times
Ain't we glad that we got 'em! Good times
Scratching and surviving-Good times
Hanging in and thriving-good times
Ain't we glad that we got 'em! Good times.
but I'm not so hard hearted. The practice I am far more inclined to be disgusted by are the people who prey on the elderly who don't have all of their facualties anymore.
But even that doesn't warrant sueing those compainies for millions. I would just make them give refunds to whoever wanted them.
And there's always bankruptsy proceedings... which is a fine place for a judge to punish irresponsible creditors by not letting them collect.
However the cheapest solution is for the gov't to educate the public on how to spot a problem lender.
Allowing frivolous lawsuits just screws everyone.
You won't get me defending golden parachutists... but I would rather push to get after sleazy execs, than slacken the rules for everyone else.
I also don't have a lot of sympathy for people steeped in credit debt. You live within your means. Because I'm in school, I'm currently living on 16K a year and I'm saving money (barely). Guess how many credit cards I have and how often I respond to 'pre-approved' offers. Guess how often I call up my psychic-friends to pick my lottery numbers.
I guess I've come to terms with a couple of working hypotheses about life.
Act responsibly.
Life isn't fair.
But really... we all know how economics works. Every time a company is saddled with a lawsuit... the costs just get transfered to the rest of the customers through increased prices.
b) i'm not defending Enron... what they did was criminal and outside our discussion.
c) McDonalds is not Enron. Toro lawnmowers is not Enron. Trek bycycles is not Enron. Gun manufacturers are not Enron. These are the companies that get frivolous lawsuits levied at them. Not energy conglomorates.
d) If an award is soooo insignificant... does it really effect the price to the individual consumer enough to effect their choice? If a multimillion dollar award raises the price of a cup of coffee 5 cents... do you think someone will walk out of their local McDonalds to go to Burger King? No... they're already in line... it's not worth their trouble.
e) If a cost transcends manufacturers. Such as increasing insurance costs to protect from lawsuits... maybe even padding profits in case they do get tagged by a lawsuit... or installing safety devices. Then you can expect that to be reflected universally in prices. Maybe not uniformally, because some companies can implement the change more efficiently than others.
I think that's more effective than eating there... finding something to sue them over... and dying fat and happy.
... oh wait... why the hell am I in school.
Damn... maybe liberals like you have got it right.
Every program the Feds touch turns into a huge piece of expensive bureaucratic dung.
Perhaps when you leave the ivory tower and get into the workplace, begin a family, etc., you will have a greater appreciation for it. In terms of delivering benefits, it is also extremely efficient.
I'm all for welfare and helping those in need. However, I look at safety nets as things that keep you from hitting rock bottom... not for extended use and not for those who aren't in need.
I regret to inform you that the privelege of changing thread titles at will is now revoked until further notice. Most of you this will not affect at all so I apologize for the interruption to your thread.
Top music earners of 2001
1. U2 - $61.9m
2. Dr Dre - $51.9m
3. The Beatles - $47.9m
4. The Dave Matthews Band - $43.4m
5. Madonna - $40.8m
6. Master P -$36m
7. Carlos Santana - $32.7m
8. 'N Sync - $26.5m
9. Aerosmith -$24.2m
10. Sting - $24m
Source: Rolling Stone
23058. Shannon - 6/13/2002 8:55:38 PM
Those people who mimicced natural born killers were already whacked in their head and were probably already pre-disposed to do violence against others.
Well, that, and they did something like 27 hits of acid before watching the movie. And yet Oliver Stone was supposed to foresee their reaction. Uh-huh.
Message # 23001
We don't let drug dealers advertise cocaine under some free speech unbrella.
Well, that's because advertising cocaine would amount to attempting to sell it, which is illegal. It is not illegal, however, to say that you think cocaine is really cool and everyone should do it, although you'd probably not find a major network willing to sell you airtime for that.
And free speech does, in fact apply to things other than political speech. There's no "but only important politial issues" clause on the first amendment.
Look at the picture, for chrissake. This is not a straight person.
By JOANN LOVIGLIO, Associated Press
PHILADELPHIA (June 13, 2002 11:38 p.m. EDT) - Two U.S. Mint employees were charged Thursday with stealing and selling five $1 coins that were stamped incorrectly with the head of a Washington quarter.
James Watkins, 41, was accused of taking four of the gold-colored coins - mistakenly stamped with George Washington on the front instead of the American Indian guide Sacagawea - and selling them to coin dealers and collectors for about $9,200, U.S. Attorney Patrick Meehan said.
Raymond Jackson, 54, sold the fifth coin to a collector for $5,000, prosecutors said.
The five coins were resold for a total of $137,395, authorities said.
A telephone message left at Jackson's home was not returned Thursday; Watkins' phone was disconnected and his attorney declined comment.
Mint spokesman Michael White declined to comment and prosecutors said they didn't know whether Jackson and Watkins still worked at the mint.
Jackson and Watkins, both of Philadelphia, were charged with conversion of government property and witness tampering for allegedly trying to persuade witnesses not to cooperate with federal agents investigating the February-June 2000 thefts.
If convicted, Watkins faces up to 40 years in prison and a $1 million fine, and Jackson faces up to 20 years and a $500,000 fine.
In November 2000, a 20-year mechanic at the mint was sentenced to six months in prison for smuggling defective pennies, nickels and dimes out of the mint and selling them for about $74,000.
The 210-year-old Philadelphia mint employs about 500 people and last year produced about 10 billion coins. The Sacagawea dollar debuted in 2000.
Girlfriend charged in stabbing of
Mississippi man
Rodney Outlaw, 25, of Macon, Miss. is being treated at DCH Regional Medical Center in Tuscaloosa with severe wounds to his buttocks, rectum and arms.
A hate crime against the black man was still being considered a possibility before Outlaw changed his story Wednesday afternoon, said District Attorney Chris McCool.
McCool said sheriff's deputies arrested Kimberly Y. King, 26, at her home in an Aliceville housing project about 6 p.m. Wednesday, while she was
being interviewed by a television news crew.
King had attempted to get child support in 2000 from Outlaw but the case had been dismissed, according to court records.
...A hate crime against the black man was still being considered a possibility before Outlaw changed his story Wednesday afternoon.
What? - this wasn't a hate crime?
For that matter look at all the guns on the mantle behind him.
STOCKHOLM, Sweden June 14 A calendar featuring nude farmers armed with pitchforks, shovels and wheelbarrows is creating a stir in Swedish agriculture circles.
A national farming organization, which presented a similar, hugely successful, calendar last year, is worried that the new version made by a local group of farmers could defeat the purpose of the original calendar.
The first version, featuring waist-up, black-and-white photographs of nude, young farmers in farm settings, was designed to change the image of Swedish farmers as "grumpy old men with hats."
Ooh la la. Pelle, get pictures.
That calendar is not on-line. I offer you this pic, which if you think about it, is full of sexual symbolism and innuendo. 
That said, one cannot have too many gasoline engine equipment around the house. I wouldn't mind a sod cutter.
WINNIPEG, Manitoba (Reuters) - A Canadian teacher has been suspended after shocking a small northern Manitoba school by distributing a math exam that included questions about pimps, prostitutes, machine guns, cocaine trafficking and getting "knocked up."
The math proficiency test included questions such as: "Rufus is a pimp for three girls. If the price is $65 per trick, how many tricks per day must each girl turn to support Rufus' $800 per day crack habit?"
...even though there apparently wasn't a cold war.
We even used Smallpox on Indian tribes in the 19th Century.
What you mean 'we', white man? It was a an individual Brit, Lord Jeffrey Amherst, during the French and Indian Wars in the 1760's who was responsible for deliberately giving Smallpox infected blankets to Indians.
So, it was never US policy, just the evilness of one Britisher, plus it didn't even happen while the US existed.
Biological warfare was first deliberately used in North America by the British against the Indians in the mid 18th Century. The Spanish involuntarily killed off thousands--if not millions--of Caribs, Aztecs, and Incas through the introduction of diseases to which they had no residual immunity from previous exposure (Measles, Smallpox).
REMAINING U.S. CEOs MAKE A BREAK FOR IT---
Band of Roving Chief Executives Spotted Miles from Mexican Border
It isn't sexy enough for the insane Lefty contingent to admit that most of the Indian depopulation since White Men entered North American was due to introduced pathogens. Nope, they simply assume that it must have been the deliberate intent of the eee-vil Yourapeons, especially in the form of the US government, to extirpate the red man, of course disregarding the absolute dearth of supporting evidence for such a hypothesis.
It would be useful if you could provide a source for this.
Do you even know what the trail of tears refers to?
Since I had never heard of Judith's claim before, I had asked her if she could recall where it came from.
If 90% of the Jews in the world died from lack of resistance to some disease, would you consider it more, or less, tragic if the remaining 10% were slaughtered in a genocide? Would you say the genocide was insignificant, since so many of them were already dead?
I am guilty of sarcasm, Wombat. Sorry, I was driven to it by concerned's remarks in Message # 23085
I swear I have to trademark that little (s) mark for real.
Jesus, are you people humor deprived? IT WAS A JOKE.
If Daniel or Ace had written it, y'all would've guffawed...Daniel and Ace would've been off and running on a posts-long riff about all the diseases Custer tried to inflict on the Indians, up to and including Chronic Exhaustion and carpel tunnel syndrome.
Par-don me. Okay?
sorry. Although Custer's soldiers would be more likely to get carpal tunnel syndrome from all that shooting and sabering of indians...
Godless, it isn't just Indians who are eating too many greaseburgers...have you looked around at how obese the general population is? We really don't need terrorists to kill us; we're doing a pretty good job of accomplishing that ourselves.
Robert Noel (aggravating finding of perjury): 4 years
AFAIK, the remaining native Americans generally died in warfare against other tribes or whites, or expired (as most people do) from other non-genocide related causes. I just have never seen anything factual to back up a claim of genocide against American Indians.
The way godless talks about 'em, you'd think he's discussing hothouse flowers, not native Americans.
Re. 23098 -
JAH -
You're just too subtle.
You don't really want to know what really happened, and I don't really want to talk to you about it. But if it isn't something you know, you shouldn't talk about it, either.
They are not your dead. Leave them alone.
TORONTO (Reuters) - A man who sells amateur videos that provide views up women's skirts has been under police surveillance for two months, but authorities said on Friday there was little they can do as there were no identifiable victims.
No. I want very much to know what happened....if anybody has anything to contribute. If somebody won't lay their cards on the table, it's probable they don't have anything worth much, anyway. IAC, I will not willingly allow myself to be victimized by any Big Lies and Con Games.
I think that one could make a good argument that what the Spanish did in the Caribbean and Central and South America was genocide.
That's as may be (I'll check further into it), but my immediate concern is whether the US government or its subsidiaries were ever culpable of anything which could reasonably be termed 'genocide'. So far, nobody has made any concrete claim of such.
Ol Andy Jackson sure seemed to have it in for native americans. Course maybe you could argue that he didn't care if they lived or died just so long as they got the hell out of areas where white folks wanted to settle.
Then there's the whole cultural genocide thing -- taking children away from their parents and raising them in schools so as to "de-indianize" em.
Contradicting previous statements, Capt. Atkinson said Elizabeth's 9-year-old sister Mary Catherine, who was asleep next to the victim, "feigned sleep" and had no conversation with nor was threatened by the abductor.
Although police reported previously that the suspect had warned Mary Catherine -- who shared a bedroom with Elizabeth -- not to report the incident to her parents, causing her to wait about two hours to report her sister missing, Atkinson said Tuesday that was not the case.
The Paper of Wreckage
True. They don't seem inclined to do so.
After your glee over the deaths of 3000 people the days after 9-11 we know how much you care about other peoples' dead... eh Sak?
previous link... didn't work.
This one is interesting
ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI, JUNE 19, 2002, 10:00 a.m. CDT (JUNE 19, 2002, 15:00 UTC) As the Bud Light Spirit of Freedom mission continues, Steve Fossett is currently gliding just off the southern shore of Australia. This is just the beginning of Fossetts sixth attempt to complete the first solo round-the-world balloon mission.
After being in flight for just over twelve hours, Fossett has traveled 690.7 miles (1,111.3 km). The balloon is drifting at 59.1 miles per hour (95 km/hr), and is expected to approach Sydney sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening Sydney time. The balloons current position is roughly 32 degrees south latitude and 128 degrees east longitude and it is cruising at 19,700 feet (6,004.6 km).
LONDON (AP) - Queen Elizabeth II has given the boot to a TV crew that failed to meet the dress code.
Out strolling the royal enclosure during the first day of the Royal Ascot race week on Tuesday, the queen spotted the BBC crew's casual clothes and - after ensuring her eyes were not deceiving her - issued a stern word to race officials, who promptly turfed the men out.
Ascot's chief executive, Douglas Erskine-Crum said one of the British Broadcasting Corp. crew was wearing a T-shirt and the other an open-necked shirt, a breach of the dress code for the invitation-only royal enclosure, where members of the royal family meet to study the horseflesh.
Billy Joel has just checked into a rehab facility at Silver Hills...substance abuse. CNN Breaking News...
This is so disheartening to me. Not that I care taht much for Billy Joel but someone that age really ought to know better by now. I mean, hell, these people have been there, done that and have more money than they will ever need...what the heck do they lack in their lives that they can't cope or need something to make it all worth it?
Show a little fortitude, man. Act your friggin' age.
Not sure what you mean by "simply prone" to it, but the only alternative to using for an addict is complete abstention. And there is no evidence to suggest that all addicts can quit.
And I acknowledge that for many addicts, the way off drugs is pretty extreme, such as lifelong residence in a therapeutic community.
Yes, I am quite aware that addiction is physical; I am also acutely aware that one can quit without recourse to a rehab facility. I am also aware that strength of will can keep one off drugs. Not all people are helpless before their addictions.
I'm not sure that people know that they are prone to it. One can have no addiction in the family and have picked up the gene, others can have many addicted relatives and not have the gene.
I don't think there is any evidence that all people can quit. The fact that some people can quit doesn't mean that everyone can. Turning it into a moral issue is akin to saying that the x% of cancer patients who aren't cured by chemotherapy are to blame--or, for that matter, saying that getting cancer is your own fault.
Or has there been a study that demonstrates that absolutely everyone can quit?
I am also acutely aware that one can quit without recourse to a rehab facility.
Some can. Some can't. Some can't quit at all.
I am also aware that strength of will can keep one off drugs. Not all people are helpless before their addictions.
Wrong.
Yes, I am quite aware that addiction is physical;
Apparently not, given the rest of your morality play post.
Are you saying all are? Well, that must mean no one can quit, then.
And I thought you knew I do nothing but moralize about things I can't possible understand. It'll go easier for you if you just admit I'm helpless before this tendency and can't possibly be doing anything else.
and
Turning it into a moral issue is akin to saying that the x% of cancer patients who aren't cured by chemotherapy are to blame--or, for that matter, saying that getting cancer is your own fault.
Cal: Are you saying that for something to be a moral issue some nonphysical cause must be involved?
Additionally, the fact that not all addicts can quit does not morally exonerate someone who fails to quit. It just makes any moral failure probabilistic.
I wasn't being particularly global in my definition of "moral issues". I am saying that addiction is a disease, or a physical condition, and the only "treatment" involves no medical intervention and has (barely) a 30% success rate. To describe those who can't tolerate the "treatment" as having less will power, maturity, or fortitude is to use a completely inaccurate frame of reference. If we regularly discuss other diseases in terms of the morality of the people who are unfortunate enough to be stricken, I must have missed it.
I don't think there's any question that most people who are at risk do not know it. But we may be near the point where we can test people to determine if they are at risk for drug abuse and/or alcoholism, which raises all sorts of questions.
Diseases in which a person does not exercise the activity that equals the disease (Stop me before I pick up another cancer cell!) are completely irrelevant comparisons to addictions, even if you do accept all addictions as totally physical.
to say it's just physical, i think, opens up a whole other can of worms. because if it's a disease, then the individual has no culpability and has every right to pursue action against those that made their disease worse. however, judging by the ubiquitous nature of some "diseases", i'd say that more work needs to be done to explain to people how they are becoming addicted and what the addiction will do. a warning label or billboard here and there cannot counter the cultural, economic, and social support of the addiction. even "hard drugs", which may have some kind of stigma to the middle class, are not necessarily held in such low opinion in other classes and cultures or social groups.
Alcohol is a legal addictive substance. So are many pharmeceuticals that addicts start out on for legal purposes. Both are commonly used in society. To hold an addict even partially responsible for choosing to have a drink in this society or use valium because the doctor first ordered it is to make "partial moral responsibility" so broad as to be meaningless.
As for illegal drugs, I believe most research has demonstrated that addicts will find another drug if their drug of choice isn't available.
Additionally, the fact that not all addicts can quit does not morally exonerate someone who fails to quit. It just makes any moral failure probabilistic.
Failure to quit isn't a moral failing at all. If one doesn't drive while under the influence and holds down a job for life (which is by no means uncommon for high functioning addicts), then there is nothing immoral about using the drug, particularly if it is legally acquired.
To not hold addicts even partially responsible for their addiction is to make the term responsible meaningless. It also has the practical effect of making mitigation of addiction almost impossible. 
The results are in: Purple reigns.
*insert trouble here
Not at all. If we were to not hold them legally responsible for any crimes (short of possession) they committed, it would render the term meaningless. But I've advocated no such move.
It also has the practical effect of making mitigation of addiction almost impossible.
There is no mitigation of addiction. There is mitigation of crime.
Whoops. Toys.
But I miss the tan ones.
I wasn't referring to legal responsibility, I was referring to personal responsibility. If one has no personal responsibility at all for drinking alchohol, then the term personal responsibility doesn't mean anything.
There is no mitigation of addiction. There is mitigation of crime.
Of course addiction can be mitigated. Addiction does not change the nature of the universe.
I'm increasingly concerned by the Bush Administration's actions regarding the "suspected terrorists" held in internment. Initially, I agreed with his policy of military internment without any involvement of the american judicial system. However, the military and government has had PLENTY of time to determine who is or is not a threat now, and remain likely suspects. These people should now be given some representation and be processed through some court system (either military or civil).
Otherwise, those who the administration has no evidence against other then being in the wrong place at the wrong time should be let go. Personally, I think we can exclude any of them who were here as resident aliens if we want, but we can't ethically keep all these people locked up for years without any procedural rights. It's unAmerican.
I also would not be opposed to a total ban on immigration for the next few years. If we're concerned about suspected terrorists getting into the country on various temporary visas we should simply stop all immigration until we can sort out a better monitoring process. No more of this pre-emptive selective targeting stuff.
Just my humble opinion.
Good to see you.
As far as closing down immigration, I think we need to do a great deal more to find, process, and boot our existing illegal aliens.
Despite my distaste for such persons, we can't ethically hold them if there is no evidence of terrorist involvement. However, we can ensure they don't ever get near the US. If they have access to the US through some visa, we can revoke their status, or we can short list them as "never to be let in under any circumstances" personages.
Those that are American citizens are tougher to deal with. My inclination is to simply prosecute if we can, if not to keep them under careful and intense surveilance for the duration of this "war on terriorism". That should make their day over at the FBI.
I support the idea of requiring all currently legal aliens in the country to have to re-apply, however, this casts a big net and could be a nightmare. I definitely support a moratorium on all immigration of any kind until the CIA, FBI, and INS can get their collective acts together.
If we go ahead and get a little medieval on al-Queda and associates... maybe sympathizers might clue into the fact that we're deadly serious about what's going on.
I think it's pretty telling how much money goes from our Arab 'allies' to these terror organizations. How few Arab sympathizers rat out Islamist plots, and as a parallel how few Palestinians rat out Palestinian terrorists. You think if they were serious about putting a stop to terrorism that there would be *some* kind of action taken (although Saudi Arabia did arrest those 3 people recently... I think more because they're starting to fear strikes within their own boundaries)
It's like today's article about whether Richard Reid's statements to the police are admissible because he might have still been under the influence of sedatives. The fucker was lighting a fucking shoe bomb on his feet. They should shoot him now... this is war isn't it?
It's like the dirty bomb suspect... fucking shoot the traitor.
It's like John Walker Lindh... no pity... he's a traitor... he joined a fucking foreign military and renounced his American citizenship in doing so.
This is war... if it were peacetime I'd worry more about these people... but they declared war on us... they brought the war to us... it is not something the US just up and decided to do.
Those who claim to be our allies should be thinking very carfully about who they associate themselves with... lest we get the wrong impression.
Other countries do not recognize the rights American citizens have at home... why should we extend these rights to them?
...this is as much a rant as anything... but I am truely frustrated by the fact that if we act like pussies they're going to treat us like pussies.
Save the bloviated, self-important, lawyerly niceties for the likes of OJ and the various and sundry Kennedy criminals.
If there were some question as to whether Lindh, Reid, Moussaoui, or Padilla were up to nastiness aimed at the US, fine - give them a trial before you shoot 'em.
But there isn't.
Even Australia realizes this. Remember - we got one of their loonies in Afghanistan. And how did their prime Minister react? Did he demand that the guy be afforded legal counsel? Did he wonder aloud whether we had enough evidence to hold him?
No - I believe his exact words were: "I don't care what they do with him."
Moral clarity - this is my new - my only philosophy wrt the War on Terror.
Well, I don't disagree with your concerns, and I certainly agree that non-citizens do not have the same rights as citizens. Indeed, I've long been a supporter of eliminating most federal and state welfare benefits to non-citizens. I just disagree that we should hold people against whom we have no evidence (other than being there) in indefinite internment. At the very least we need to process them through a military tribunal.
I think there are steps we can take to ensure they do not get anywhere near the US, and can be as ruthless as we need to be in order to keep them out. However, indefinite internment is immoral in my humble opinion. We need to cull out those whom we have some evidence against from those who we netted and have only weak suspicions against. I don't much care if we do this through a military tribunal or civilian, but I don't support this current policy anymore.
I also don't think internment is our only option to "hang tough". We can put our considerable resources to keeping all those now interned under surveilance; we can short list them so that they can never get into the country by also surveiling anyone or any group associated with them; we can stop ALL immigration as of now until we have established a protocol for effective monitoring once we start allowing immigration again; and, as others have suggested, we can even require all current immigrants on any kind of visa to re-apply.
I also agree on Lindh and Reid, there should be no excuses for their actions. I think a competent jury wouldn't fall for those arguments presented either, and if they did? Well, then, we simply keep the guy under constant surveilance and monitor his every move. This ought to keep both the CIA and the FBI out of trouble and focused on their actual reason for existence.
Where are the hordes of dred-locked, pierced, social misfits parading down the streets of Sydney demanding justice for a man who merely chose to live in another country, only to be conscripted into a war against the US?
Where are the Australian lawyers?
I know where they are - they're home where they should be, watching soccer and not thinking about the scumbag Aussie Talibani, that's where.
I don't trust the FBI to keep these guys under surveillance, and I'm not convinced that we ought to be required to pay for it. I don't see why we can't revoke Lindh's citizenship--or at least argue that he committed an expatriating act. There is videotape of him refusing to answer the CIA's questions after having been caught as an Al Qaeda member, rather than saying "Hey, I'm an American." Start there.
I don't have any problem with al Qaeda sympathizers being held indefinitely, although I think they should have the opportunity to prove they aren't involved.
I am always alert to this being overused--I'm not convinced the sweep after 9/11 was based on any rational criteria, and if it wasn't, I think they should be processed and booted quickly.
But then, I think all illegal aliens should be processed and booted quickly. Why we are obligated to spend so much money justifying our ability to kick out people who weren't legally here is something that has always puzzled me.
But how would they do that? I mean, the first thought I'd have were I in that situation would be to lie...so what proof can they offer?
Being an al queda sympathizer is not enough in my book to be held for years in internment. Expulsion from the US, by all means. Revoking Lindh's citizenship, by all means. Barring any of these folks from ever entering the country, by all means. Stricter monitoring of our borders to eliminate illegal aliens, I'm there.
But if the FBI can't do this, then it's time we should know, and replace that organization with one that can do the job. Talk about wasting taxdollars....if we can't rely on the FBI to manage domestic security, then we should eliminate it.
And if we put those now interned through some process that reveals what evidence we have to hold them, even a military tribunal, then I don't oppose indefinite detainment, but there have been NO CHARGES. This isn't good for us in the long run, to hold people without cause indefinitely.
Say I was driving down the road, and I saw a building on fire. I didn't do anything to either help the people inside, or call the fire department or anything. I just drove off. Better yet, say I knew the arsonist. Then somehow, the authorities were able to establish that I knew quite a bit about the arsonists' plans beforehand.
I find it hard to believe that I wouldn't be brought up on criminal charges... if not made an accomplice.
Basically... if they're "sympathizers" they know something... if they know something and don't report it then they're culpable.
I agree. Being in Afghanistan, being picked up at the same time and in the company of Al Qaeda fighters while the US troops are fighting, on the other hand, qualifies for years of internment if you can't prove otherwise.
Do you mean charges in the legal or military sense? How does one charge them militarily?
3i3b--I think some of them are providing information, are they not?
Well, I disagree. These people might be morally guilty but they aren't legally guilty unless they were co-conspirators. In addition, if they aren't American citizens they just "might" not see the acts as terrorism.
This is the basic problem. We're ready to define any hatred and ill will toward America as terrorism these days. Any sympathizers with groups who want to do violence against us as terrorists.
Sorry, but that could be a two edged sword. What about all us Americans who'd like to see various regimes topple in the world? When are our sympathies terrorist support and when are they otherwise?
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm just as angry and hostile as the next person, but there are some basic actions that need to be taken to ensure we respect our own legal protections and preserve our own moral integrity.
Hindsight has told us that the Japanese internments were way too inclusive and overbroad in their reach. We have a little history to tell us that we ought not jump to conclusions too quickly here. While many of those being held are not Americans, there are still grounds for handling them with some respect for our own legal traditions and procedures.
However, until we are able to get a modecum of control on the situation I think some of the interred should sit tight and be glad we treat them as well as we do.
Well, the military has legal procedures for handling prisoners and "enemy conspirators". These should be invoked at the very least. I don't much care whether those being interned are given access to civilian tribunals, but they need to be given an opportunity to at least prove they are innocent of A CHARGE. If they cannot, then at least we can say we provided them with some procedural rights before keeping them indefinitely interned.
And just to be clear, I'm not opposed to indefinite internment of those against whom we have sufficient evidence and have charged with some war crime. Throw away the key for all I care, I'm just talking about some procedural process that should be in place before we throw that key away.
This I agree with. But I think they could charge all the people who were picked up in Afghanistan with war crimes of some sort.
but this is war... a war we didn't ask for... so while they 'might' not see it as an act of terrorism... I do.
RE: Japanese Internment
Well we haven't kicked every muslim out of the coutnry. We haven't put them in camps in the 1000's. We're talking 300 or so people. I don't think it even compares to the Japanese American internments.
I don't doubt there are some people in that 300 that were in the wrong place at the wrong time... however, since we're at war (and we better think of it as war if we expect to succeed)...
...but lots of miscalculations happen in a war... but in my mind our first priority should be to crush these networks with the full understanding that we will make mistakes. But we shouldn't let the fear of some mistakes keep us from acting (forcefully) at all.
i3b3. We are technically "not at war" because Congress has not declared it. We are involved in a military action, yes, but not war.
Just because the President says "this is a war against terrorism" doesn't make it legally so.
When we interned the Japanese, btw, it was after Congress declared war.
The lion share of our energy should go toward prosecuting this 'war'.
2. FOIA won't apply to the new agency.
3. Cabinet secretary in charge can veto any investigation into his/agency's actions.
And this is the bill Congress is being pressured to sign off on?
Un-American Homeland Security
Yes, of course, it is funny that our security forces have cooked up so many fears that they now are going after hot dogs. But the wiener-whacking is also a cautionary tale. If security services continue to declare color-coded terrorism alerts, discover threats whenever it is politically convenient, and pour tax dollars into boondoggles like over-policing the meeting of the U.S. Conference of Mayors in Madison or pulling over the Wienermobile in Virginia, they are going to lose the credibility they will need when they try to address more realistic threats than big orange hot dogs.
The Associated Press
Saturday, June 22, 2002; 10:08 AM
NEW YORK A woman who wore nothing but a thong and body paint at last year's Mermaid Parade in Coney Island has sued the city, charging police wrongfully arrested her for exposing her chest.
Amy Gunderson, a 30-year-old model, filed the lawsuit on Wednesday in Manhattan federal court alleging police violated her First Amendment rights when they arrested her last June 29.
The 19-year-old parade, which will be held again this Saturday, traditionally features floats with topless women dressed as surf-tossed sea creatures.
But last year, police issued Gunderson a criminal summons for exposure, and other topless women quickly covered up with seashells, beads and Band-Aids, said Gunderson's lawyer, Ron Kuby.
The charges against Gunderson were eventually dismissed by a judge.
Kuby, a longtime judge at the parade, accused then-Mayor Rudolph Giuliani of overreacting to the free-spirited festival.
"I think (current Mayor Michael Bloomberg) has a different view of bare breasts than Mayor Giuliani," Kuby said.
I don't think we can just have a 27 foot long weiner tooling around America unchallenged. Imagine the unrealistic expectations it will foment among the womenfolk.
LONDON: As comic book hero Spider-Man fills cinemas with his webby adventures, prepare to meet an equally astonishing creation - Spidergoat.
Scientists have combined the DNA from a goat and spider to create an animal which produces silk that is five times stronger than steel. The fibre, derived from the goats' milk, harnesses the huge strength of silk spun by spiders.
Hot Dog! Now there's a story I can sink my teeth into.
LOXLEY, Ala. -Authorities are investigating the alleged beating of a preacher by funeral mourners who didn't like his blunt eulogy.
Glynis Bethel tells the Associated Press that her husband, Pastor Orlando Bethel, was attacked during a June 14 funeral and dragged out of the church. That's because Bethel told mourners the deceased was in hell and that they were headed the same way.
The dead man was Mrs. Bethel's uncle.
Pastor Bethel referred to him as a "drunkard and a fornicator." Mrs. Bethel, who's also a preacher, says, "the fornicators didn't like what he said so they got up and beat him."
She says police didn't make any arrests, so she and her husband, who may have a broken nose, are taking out warrants.
UC Berkeley engineer Ron Fearing picks up a prototype of a robotic "microfly" , which one day might infiltrate a terrorist cave or reconnoiter an enemy battlefield. Once they get the bugs worked out, that is.
According to Trooper Rob White of the Texas Department of Public Safety, "From preliminary reports [the bus] began to weave for some unknown reason and struck a concrete pillar."
White said there were no skid marks and no indications that the bus driver attempted to stop.
White said the chartered bus was carrying 40 children, three counselors and a driver. They were from Metro Church in Garland, Texas, and were on their way to a camp at Louisiana Tech in Ruston, Louisiana.
AVON, Ind. -- A high school wrestling coach who admitted biting the head off a live sparrow has resigned his coaching job.
Avon High School board members accepted Aron Bright's resignation from his coaching job of seven years Monday night. He will remain as a history and geography teacher at the suburban Indianapolis school.
..........................
Bright, some assistant coaches and 15 varsity wrestlers were attending a two-day meet in nearby Connersville, and he said he bit off the bird's head to fire up the team.
MBABANE, Swaziland (Reuters) - Women in Swaziland's royal capital said they dare not wear trousers after a top official warned them Sunday that they would be torn off by soldiers.
"If any of us dare wear pants the soldiers will strip us naked," Lobamba resident Mary Dlamini, 22, said after listening to head man Jim Gama address local people at a special meeting.
Does Rustler know about this place?
WorldCom Pulls an Enron...
God bless America
Would you like mustard and Malaise on that dog?
Must've been something to do with the godless commies.
Oh, boy. This is going to cause a fuss.
Discussion
I don't mind it being one way or another to be honest. The phrase 'under god' doesn't really endourse a particular religion or mandate a state religion. I guess the phrase is really only insulting to athiests.
Overall I'd say there are bigger fish to fry with this war on terror.
it's a problem for pagans and polytheists too. And what are we fighting for if not including the freedom from state religion. Have you forgotten the Taliban so quickly?
Half the argument is state sponsored religion... the other half is not being so fucking uptight when people express their religion.
It's like the people who got upset because some public servants said prayers after 9-11... screaming 'separation of church and state'... and my point all along is if the first thing you decry after something like 9-11 is a public servent expressing their religious freedom you have warped priorities.
It's just as important in this case for the minority to be tolerant of the majority as vice versa.
When it is in the Pledge of Allegiance, it stops being an expression of religion.
Frankly, I think this is a good time for this subject to come up. Bush is not someone who has much time for nonbelievers, so it will be interesting to see if he squirms on this. Of course, I believe the SF appellate court is very liberal.
I don't like the "Under God" phrase in the pledge, but I am a believer in picking your battles, and this is not one I would pick. When the battleground becomes empty patriotic and religious symbols, you are fighting on GOP turf.
It's like the different versions of the Lords Prayer...
for a Christian... is it more important that the person use 'debters' or 'trespassers'?... some people actually think it matters.
With the pledge, are we talking about god or patriotism?
...or is the real answer that it just doesn't matter and that we should all be Americans and tolerate the fact that some expressions of religion might actually get expressed here and there.
If he condemns it and includes any reference to the need to believe, I think there will be reporters who make him squirm. That said, it won't only be his constituents that will like his response. Nonbelievers aren't all that popular.
I don't like the "Under God" phrase in the pledge, but I am a believer in picking your battles, and this is not one I would pick. When the battleground becomes empty patriotic and religious symbols, you are fighting on GOP turf.
On the church/state division issue, there is only the religious symbols left. And I would have been more prone to consider this a bad battle before Bush began making religion such a big deal, and before it became so clear how much prejudice there is against non-believers. As such, I'm a little less likely to scoff. I don't know that the SC will necessarily overturn it, and if they don't, it reinforces the fact that belief really isn't required in this country.
Not a huge deal, but I'm not sorry it happened. Even though the shout shows will be most annoying for the next week.
10% people might find a prayer at a graduation is insulting to them... so they petition in court that it not be said... to me that's equally as insulting as the prayer might be.
Pardon the expression, but it's a blessing for God's sake... it's not meant to be insulting, and it doesn't mean you've been converted, and to demand the absolute supression of every reference to God in every public forum no matter how miniscule, is as bad as having 'under God' in a pledge that barely anyone ever says anyhow, and that the phrase 'under God' is completely optional.
Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri, per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis.
Doesn't the pledge have some constitutional history around it in that Jehovah's Witnesses managed to get landmark cases allowing their children to not have to say the pledge? I think this was from the 1940s and 50s, too.
If it's no big whoop, remove the phrase and let those who believe it say it.
This is not one nation under God for everyone so why should it be included?
This isn't one nation under blue skies for everyone. We can't demand unanimity for everything we do.
For what it is worth, I don't object to the "under God" clause. I object to the Pledge itself. I find fealty oaths to be objectionable.
I guess that means they are going to take away my GOP secret decoder ring.
Welcome back; haven't seen you in awhile.
Awwwww. They're all playing nice on this one.
My life is still extraordinarily chaotic which leaves my Moting time very limited.
Al D - Good to see you too.
As someone said, the Pledge without "under God" got us through WWII and the Korean War just fine. (Maybe WWI, too..I don't know if it was around then.)
If the religious right needs to be taken down a peg or two, why try to do it on an issue where they are sure to win, and win big. This is a loser issue for the left (and those uncomfortable with any overt and public display of religion) all the way.
No major politician from either party is going to support this decision; the public will overwhelmingly be against it; and now judges will increasingly be vetted on yet another silly issue, forcing them to come out publicly in support of a range of religious symbols.
I would think that liberals would be royally pissed at the 9th circuit for bringing this to the public's attention. If you're going to take the religious right on, head directly for some of their issues that don't bleed into areas where many others are sympathetic to them (such as the banning of certain books or the teaching of evolution in schools).
Am I alone in objecting to the Pledge in general? Isn't anyone bothered that children are forced to stand in their classrooms and swear fealty to our government? I am I the only one who finds this blatant indoctrination of youth obscene?
What if the Supreme Court upholds it?
Paul Begala: "Yeah, and that phrase really got them, didn't it?!"
Begala also said the decision will be overturned before any kids go back to school in the fall and I think he's right.
The Supreme Court occassionally throws a curve, so it's best to not be too confident of what they will ultimately decide. But I doubt they will support the lower court's decision on this one. Four justices (Scalia, Reinquist, Thomas, and Kennedy) immediately come to mind as ones who are certain votes against it.
But even if the Supreme Court does allow the decision to stand, the left won't win. It was these kinds of decisions that built up the religious right in the seventies, and it is this kind of decision that will rejuvenate them. If the Supreme Court allows the decision to stand, we are going to be subjected to more public displays of the pledge of allegiance by both parties than my stomach can possibly stand.
The decision cites a fair number of recent Supreme Court decisions in support.
No, I'm relying on the press's interpretation of why it is significant.
But, unless you're a lawyer, that's probably the safest route to understanding its significance anyway. Is there something in it you think is not being reported on?
In support of what? Separation of church and state?
Thus I was wondering if anyone had read it, or if there had yet been any legal analysis of it. I have always heard that the Ninth Court was loopy, so I assumed they had just declared it so and gone no further. But it doesn't appear that way.
Yes, but specifically in support of use of the word "god" in schools and other public functions.
I didn't claim they did. I'm also not a lawyer so I have no idea on what legal basis they made their decision. My complaint with the decision is that it's bad politics. Behind my complaint is the assumption that courts often make decisions for political rather than legal reasons. If the law genuinely favors the defendent in this case, this should have been on of those times, in my opinion, that the court chose the political out.
They cite all recent Supreme Court decisions and apply this reasoning to the Pledge. Thus I was wondering if anyone had read it, or if there had yet been any legal analysis of it. I have always heard that the Ninth Court was loopy, so I assumed they had just declared it so and gone no further. But it doesn't appear that way.
I'm reading the decision right now. Many of the precedents I've read so far seem to deal with a whole host of matters not directly related to the question at hand. But much of it is lawyer talk that is difficult to decipher so I'm not completely sure.
isn't directly related to the question at hand?
On the other hand, this is The Mote, so why the hell not? If you've taken the trouble to carefully read the case, you're probably ahead of many of the lawyers out there.
Everyone thinks it will be overturned, it's clear--Tribe was sure it would be, if the Ninth Court didn't reverse itself. But I thought they placed it pretty squarely within recent court decisions, so I'd like to read an analysis that slices and dices it. The one dissenter didn't object to the reasoning, he just said the whole subject was silly.
I wouldn't put it beyond Tribe to say this for political reasons.
isn't directly related to the question at hand?
Possible, but those involved prayer whereas this is predominately an oath of allegiance. Given the character of this court, these justices are not above clearly distinguishing between the two.
The Court could just as easily argue that the primary purpose of the oath is an expression of loyalty, not an expression of religious affiliation. The court has repeatedly held that laws and regulations that are aimed at some important government interest that only incidentially infringes on religious freedoms (particularly if they are only minor) is not unconstitutional.
My guess (and it's only a novice guess) is that the Supremes are very likely to differentiate this case from those others and reverse the 9th Circuit.
They answered that in the decision, I thought. It is the fact that it is an oath of loyalty, in which a religious affirmation was explicitly inserted, that makes it an endorsement. O'Connor doesn't mention prayer specifically there.
You might be right. I just haven't seen anyone take on their case.
The Ninth Court mentions that the SC has several times, in a comment, declared that the Pledge is constitutional--but they haven't yet applied their own 3 tests (lemon, coercion, and endorsement, I think?) to the Pledge. They say that this was left up to them, and that the SC of course has the final say. That's in a footnote.
With this current Supreme Court, it is not wise to broaden their rulings. This court has repeatedly split hairs when it comes to these sorts of issues, so the fact that O'Connor didn't mention prayer in that statement doesn't take away from the fact that the case involved prayer at public education functions.
Second, just because the 9th addresses the issue doesn't resolve it. The majority of circuit courts and the SC has long thought the 9th C is out of line. Hardly any follow their rulings unless they independently arrive at a similar conclusion.
A compounding problem with the Pledge issue is its implications for other government activities. If the Supremes uphold this, what if a student must use money to buy lunch at school and the money has the word "god" on it (as it does)? Will the government have to change the form of money because having "In God We Trust" is an establishment of religion?
The SC is typically very sensitive to these sorts of possible reprecussions in other areas of government, particularly if they can result in very substantial burdens on it.
I'll be surprised if the Supremes could uphold this law without getting into possible other establishment issues.
Judith I absolutely agree. It makes no difference to me *which* way it is... but it seems silly that a district court needs to hold peoples' hands through this.
People need to lighten up.
Would anyone actually tell somone to fuck off when they say "god bless you" after you sneeze?
That's what I mean when I say that the efforts of people to irradicate all references to god and anything from every nook and cranny of our gov't is a hidious waste of time and money... and as insulting to monotheists as any minor reference is to people who aren't.
A hindu using a 5 dollar bill to buy a Newsweek at BooksaMillion isn't converting to Christiantity.
Geez...
...but then I'd be wondering why we're wasting gov't effort on this when there are other SERIOUS problems facing this country this instant.
But did the US specifically change the wording on our coins to include "god"?
I know that the Ninth Court gets overturned more than any other, and everyone thinks it will be overturned--and I'm sure it will. But I do think they argue a good case.
Yes, I believe they did.
It would probably be a minor thing for the government to change the pledge wording to remove the "under god" phrase, but it could open the door to challenges to any reference to a deity in all government elements, a much more oneous burden.
Given that the basic purpose of the pledge is very different than prayer at any public function, I'm bettung the SC is going to rule against the decision. My guess is that it will probably be a 6-3 decision with Ginsburg, Breyer and Stevens against overturning and the remaining justices voting for reversal. Ten to one if this is how it pans out there will be one plurality opinion, two or three concurring opinions, and at least one dissenting opinion.
This court might be the worst we've had in over a century, but they sure do like to hear themselves talk.
How long has "In God We Trust" been on our coins? Since 1954, or longer ago than that? 
"I know I dropped that stupid pacifier in here...
From the Bureau of Engraving and Printing (where US currency is made):
In God We Trust
The use of the national motto on both U.S. coins and currency notes is required by two statutes, 31 U.S.C. 5112(d) (1) and 5114(b), respectively. The motto was not adopted for use on U.S. paper currency until 1957. It first appeared on the 1935G Series $1 Silver Certificate, but didn't appear on U.S. Federal Reserve Notes until the Series 1963 currency. This use of the national motto has been challenged in court many times over the years that it has been in use, and has been consistently upheld by the various courts of this country, including the U.S. Supreme Court as recently as 1977.
The Department of the Treasury and the Department of Justice intend to actively defend against challenges to the use of the national motto. In 1992, a challenge was filed and successfully defeated in the U.S. District Court for the District of Maryland.
No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.
-- George H. W. Bush, 27 Aug 1987
I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.
test
Touché!
And good night.
Believe me -after I just yelled at poj for html clumsiness, I made sure I checked!
Sounds like it was also done as part of the Communist agenda. And it was only declared the motto then, too? I thought it went back farther than that.
Given the above information on the many challenges to "In God We Trust" that have been turned away, I wonder now if the SC would overturn the 9th C. It's possible they would make a narrow enough ruling for eliminating the suspect phrase in the pledge without opening the door for other areas of possible establishment claims against the government.
In God We Trust, designated as the U.S. National Motto by Congress in 1956, originated during the Civil War as an inscription for U. S. coins, although it was used by Francis Scott Key in a slightly different form when he wrote The Star Spangled Banner in 1814.
On Nov. 13, 1861, when Union morale had been shaken by battlefield defeats, the Rev. M. R. Watkinson, of Ridleyville, Pa., wrote to Secy. of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase. "From my heart I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters," the minister wrote, suggesting "recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins." Secy. Chase ordered designs prepared with the inscription In God We Trust and backed coinage legislation that authorized use of this slogan. It first appeared on some U.S. coins in 1864, disappeared and reappeared on various coins until 1955, when Congress ordered it placed on all paper money and all coins.
I thought I remembered it being put into place during the 50's, and I'm sure it was in reaction to the communist threat, but I didn't realize it had been so heavily challenged before.
On the issue of why Congress would want to waste their time on this trivial problem; it's a nice, safe political win. Easy to take a stand and look "patriotic" without much effort. Witness the reports already in of grandstanding by various senators and congressmen. I believe Byrd even got into the act declaring that the judge could come and arrest them all since they routinely say the pledge and use the offending words.
Hahaha.
I agree Congress would love to waste its time with this; I think there are still some folks trying to introduce flagburning amendment of some sort.
Soon singing that will be all but a memory in history books (and not for public school children either).
But surely that's because the range required is a killer.
The Rev. Dr. Newdow has a Master of the Universe Degree.
I want one of those.
How does Congress appropriate the intellectual property rights to a piece of literature? Can they insert new lyrics into the National Anthem? Can they alter Lincoln's Gettysburg Address?
Much is made of the fact that the SC starts it's sessions with a prayer. Is this mandated by a law of Congress?
There is no doubt that a religious idea is being endorsed here by the government. And that the endorsement of religion was the very reason for adding this phrase to the pledge in 1954. The sheer logic of the court's school prayer cases admittedly extends to this use of "God" as part of a government program.
And one may also say for the 9th Circuit that many attempts to defend "under God" have their logical problems. Take for example, Justice Brennan's defense of invocations like this and "God save this Honorable Court." He said that such rote recitations over time lose their religious meaning and basically become just background noise. But, defenders of the 9th Circuit respond, "From whose perspective are we measuring the loss of religious meaning? Religious content fades into the background a lot more easily for majority adherents than it does for religious minorities (and especially for newcomers to our land) for whom 'under God' may be a lot more salient." And it troubles one friend to excuse official repetition of religious phrases on the ground that rote repetition deprives those phrases of any real religion content. "Isn't that kind of loss of religious meaning one reason why the Establishment Clause tells government to leave religion alone?" she asks.
His "favorite email" doesn't really cover the 9th Court's argument, either, which specifically mentions the "the undeniable historical significance of religion in the founding of the Republic"--which would cover the mention of God in the Constitution, etc.
He basically agrees with the logic of the decision, but contends that it is an impractical, impolitic decision. Essentially, his take is: no harm, no foul -- hardly a compelling legal argument, for sure, but common sense in this particular instance.
Well, yeah. I thought I'd just said that.
As for there not being harm--as the decisions mentions, if it said "under Jesus", would there be harm? Under Allah?
that the words "under God" do not "amount to a prayer, an endorsement, or religious proselytizing"
I'll have to read the piece, but the decision points out that the addition of the words "under God" was specifically intended to declare that Americans were not atheists, like those dirty communists. Which pretty much sounds like an endorsement of belief.
I just read Lithwick's response, and either you misunderstood her or I did. Yes, she says that "under God" isn't a prayer. Then she writes:
Still, I must wonder why Sean Hannity is practically stroking out over this decision on Fox News as we speak and why all the religious groups in the country are going apoplectic. My guess is that the words "under God" do promote monotheism, and of course the effect of that isn't just "de minimus," as they say.
The real fact is that we live in a land that likes it that way. A little mandatory Judeo-Christian theism makes most of us happy. Period. And the 9th Circuit (or if need be, the Supreme Court) will definitely make sure we get that.
If I understand her: whether it's a prayer or not, it certainly does promote monotheism, and endorsement is supposed to be a no-no. And since most Americans are happy with that endorsement, we're going to keep it.
I guess this could be called a limitation on freedom of religion. Yes, the government can endorse a religious belief if the majority supports that endorsement.
Well, yeah. I just said it again.
As for there not being harm--as the decisions mentions, if it said "under Jesus", would there be harm? Under Allah?
Under Jesus or Under Allah would be more direct endorsements of particular religions, so potentially more harmful, I guess. God is a more flexible term, and arguably doesn't have to be an endorsement of any particular religion, beyond monotheism.
The words "under God" are such a small part of the pledge, that the average, ordinary kid, without easily aggrieved parents, is unlikey to regard the pledge as an attempt to convert them to a particular religious viewpoint. Bottom line: the words are a historical curiosity that are at most annoying to some and inconsequential to pretty much everyone else (until now, at least). In reality, they do not equal religious proselytization, endorsement by the state of a particular religion or forced prayer. So, if those are the sins required to render the pledge unconstitutional, I think the pledge passes muster.
1. The Canadian Constitution does not contain an equivalent to the Establishment Clause. In fact, in all provinces save Quebec and Newfoundland, Roman Catholics have a constitutional right to a certain minimal degree of educational support from a state supported Catholic school system separate from the ordinary public school system. And, in Ontario, the Roman Catholic School System gets equal funding as the ordinary public school system -- and this flies under the Constitution.
2. Every Canadian has a guaranteed freedom of conscience and religion.
3. The English version of the Canadian national anthem contains the phrase, "God Keep Our Land." Last I heard, the anthem gets played in schools throughout the country and the Supreme Court hasn't condemned the practice (although, I don't think it has been challenged by anyone).
4. The Canadian pledge of allegiance is: Uhm, if you don't mind me saying so, we Canadians are kind of okay, I guess.
Why does it have to be a republican/democrat thing?
I'll say right now, if any would-be representative of mine ever made a big deal about how their opponent feels or voted about the pledge of allegience... I can say that it would bring them down several pegs in my book.
I suspect the SC will overturn the decision.
I also suspect the key impact of the decision will be to reinforce the Rep. fervor against appointing even moderate judges to the federal courts, something that's been going on since WJC was in office. This will have a far-reaching impact on the shape of laws to come in this country.
It's not Ohio who is making this a "republican/democrat" thing; it's they themselves who are doing so.
The issue isn't how republican and democrats feel about the pledge... it's about whether the pledge meets the muster, or whether it's even worth bothering.
But as Ohio reitterated how republicans or dems are going to profit from this issue... it completely takes away from the issue's own merit.
All of this might be justified if there were any real question as to the constitutionality of the 1954 law that added God to the pledge. But while the Supreme Court has never specifically considered the question, the justices have left little doubt how they would do so. Even former justice William Brennan -- a fierce high-waller -- once wrote "I would suggest that such practices as the designation of 'In God We Trust' as our national motto, or the references to God contained in the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag can best be understood . . . as a form a 'ceremonial deism' protected from Establishment Clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content." Other justices have likewise presumed the answer to the question, and no court of appeals should blithely generate a political firestorm -- one that was already beginning yesterday -- just to find out whether they meant what they said.
toycheck?
What I don't understand is, where were these outcries when the Supreme Court said you couldn't pray at football games?
Here, it implicates two words of the Pledge, a unifying hallmark of good citizenship and solidarity.
Precisely. Belief in god is a "hallmark of good citizenship".
O'Connor: The second and more direct infringement is government endorsement or disapproval of religion. Endorsement sends a message to nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community.
Thus, to state that belief in God is required for good citizenship is to endorse monotheism.
I think it will be overturned, since everyone else is so sure. But they certainly applied the SC's own words.
Take that!
"'There may have been a more senseless, ridiculous decision issued by a court at some time, but I don't remember it,'' said Lieberman, D-Conn."
Joe, you of all people should be able to remember a worse court decision!
Can someone with legal expertise answer some questions for me?
The WP article above says: Circuit Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, who wrote the 2-1 opinion that said the phrase "under God" violates the separation of church and state, stayed his ruling until fellow members of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decide whether to reconsider the case. He gave no reason.
If the Circuit Court of Appeals potentially has eleven members who can rehear the case, why did only three judges decide on the original case? And if this is the normal procedure -- that only a few judges sitting on the court can rule on certain cases -- how is it decided which judges will hear what cases?
The appeals court can rehear the case with the same three judges, or an 11-judge panel.
After the decision, the losing party may then petition the entire Court of Appeals for that Circuit to re-hear the case ("en banc reconsideration"). All of the judges of the Court then decide whether to re-hear the case with all of the judges of that Circuit (usually 10-12 judges) sitting as one large panel. It's entirely discretionary (I think), but the reasons judges will vote to re-hear the case en banc might be the importance of the legal issue or a belief that the three-judge panel who decided the case got it wrong.
So nobody has to PRAY to the flag . . . yet.
Any opinions on the two decisions today? Drug testing for students and vouchers?
While it's a different issue from the Pledge of Allegiance, they still both are relevant to the establishment clause. It seems likely that this Supreme Court would overturn the Circuit Court's decision on the Pledge of Allegiance if it was willing to uphold a decision allowing public money to go to religious education.
From your link:
"In sum, the Ohio program is entirely neutral with respect to religion," Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist wrote for the court. "It provides benefits directly to a wide spectrum of individuals, defined only by financial need and residence in a particular school district. It permits such individuals to exercise genuine choice among options public and private, secular and religious."
I'm not opposed to the idea of vouchers, but don't make any pretense about the First Amendment if tax money goes to put children in religious schools.
And mandatory drug testing is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. You might even make the argument that a private corporation could require it, which I dispute. Why should they be able to violate a right the government is prevented from violating.
But people are required by law to go to school, which means they're required by law to have their urine seized and searched without probable cause.
I don't see Rehnquist (or anyone else who said in yesterday's majority decision that voucher money could go to religious schools) voting to uphold the ban on the Pledge of Allegience with the reasoning that it's not "entirely neutral with respect to religion."
I think school voucher plans are bad policy, but I agree with the Rehnquist 5 (there's a six word phrase I will be unlikely to use again!) that it's not an Establishment Clause violation. Vouchers are not just a sham to route public money to religious establishments.
The drug test case disgusts me. There's no reason behind the drug testing policy upheld by the Court - test all students in "voluntary" extracirricular activities - other than that's the maximum number of students the school could test without testing every kid merely for coming to school. There's no connection between a kid being in the marching band and testing that kid for drugs other than the school can impose as a condition of joining the marching band that the kid submit to a drug test. The Court's apparent position is that if the government CAN extract consent to a search, then it MAY search.
I don't, either. My point was only that the issues aren't the same.
That said, remember that Rehnquist doesn't need to vote for it--assuming the case gets to the Supreme Court. I also wouldn't assume that any of the "liberal" justices would vote against it at this point, because they seem pretty annoyed at the conservatives for taking the Establishment cause too lightly. They may decide it's time to yank the chain.
If that is true, they only need one vote, and both O'Connor and Kennedy are directly quoted in that decision.
The voucher decision is unfortunate, but not unexpected from this court. The misstep IMO is that the majority equated public school funding with pell grants and other funding programs for higher education. There are fundamental differences between K-12 and higher education funding, even at the state level, and the court simply ignored the impact these would have on public education.
I find the voucher issue a straw man wrt any real impact on improving education, but if we must go down this path, at least the funding should occur at the state or federal level and not the local level. But I seriously doubt many communities will now institute voucher plans, it's been voted down many times in many states.
The drug testing decision is horrible. It must be terrible to be a student in today's educational environment. This seems like a flagrant violation of their right to privacy and their rights under the 4th A.
I also worry when the SC equates public schools as "guardians" of children. Schools already have tremendous responsibilities toward students, officially labeling them as guardians potentially opens the door for even greater school liability than already exists.
I understand Kennedy is angling for the Chief Justice spot, on the grounds that he is the most likely conservative candidate to get in without a confirmation fight. If so, he certainly would want to avoid voting against the pledge.
A serious question: Do students have full constitutional rights? I thought their constitutional rights were circumscribed. For example, student newspapers are subject to restrictions that private presses would not be, etc.
Concerning the fourth amendment, can the school conduct searches in school lockers and other areas, if it so chooses?
Also, I'm not familiar with this case of the "armbands" you refer to. What's it about?
Well, not that you would carry a purse.
And yes, I know you bring your bladder onto school property every day (not that I'm predicting that argument from you, it just seems like such a great thread to unravel civil liberties from).
But don't public schools have the right to enforce dress codes and even, in some cases, student uniforms?
I don't pretend to know the details, but I do know about that case and there are several other specific ones, involving school publications and the like.
Students do have more limited constitutional protections when on school grounds, but these circumscribed areas are typically related to the purpose or curriculum mandate of public schools.
For instance, student speech is not fully protected in student newspapers IF the newspaper is funded by the school and part of its curriculum. The cases generally distinguish between commercial press and school newspapers whose function first and foremost is a learning platform for students. In this situation the school can censor student speech that violates school policies and curriculum aims.
Arky has correctly stated why school searches of lockers are not an unconstitutional invasion of privacy, nor are weapon searches of student persons and packs because of the police power of the state and the compelling safety needs for schools.
The compelling safety concerns of schools is a strong enough policy reason for courts to find entry searches in schools reasonable.
I don't know the details either. But my guess is that high school students (and below) don't have full constitutional rights, even in individual matters such as dress (nothing too revealing, no profanity on your shirt, etc.), that some private adult citizens do have.
Do you think that the courts would say a young high school's student's constitutional rights had been violated if he/she ...
1) ... was sent home from school for wearing a highly revealing outfit?
2) ... was punished for kissing his girlfriend on the school grounds?
3) ... was punished for wearing a t-shirt that read "Just another Shitty Day."
Well yes, this has already been discussed. However, schools do not have unlimited freedom to violate what would otherwise be protected interests. There must be a compelling state (school) interest and the means need to be tailored to that interest, generally. Now the Supremes have given schools more leeway with respect to the means employed, but they must still show there is a strong relationship between the interest and the action.
If you look at the decision on drug testing, the majority put their arguments in these terms, and the defense attacked on these terms.
Btw, there is no comparison between dress codes and random drug testing. The one has minimal impact on protected constitutional rights and is easily justified, the other is directly related to constitutional protections and is much harder to justify.
In addition, adults do not have complete freedom when it comes to public dress either. Employers have a right to enforce work dress codes, communities have the right to enforce public indecency laws.
Summer in the City
As for the first [a school that didn't drug test], Justice Kennedy said, 'no parent would send a child to that school, except maybe your client.'
Nasty.
But people are required by law to go to school, which means they're required by law to have their urine seized and searched without probable cause.
What the court did was uphold a school's right to submit students to drug tests who wish to attend extracurricular activities.
So, yes - people are required to go to school. But no - they are not required to submit to a drug test.
And if they don't like it, well...they can take their voucher and go straight to Ridgemont High.
I guess they could always just do drugs for recreation.
And they can take their voucher as long as they can foot the the rest of the tuition the voucher doesn't cover.
Anyway, I'm going to get on my bandwagon here. Indulge me, because I see a clear connection between what this school was trying to do, and what we in my facility have been extremely successful in accomplishing:
Everyone gets exactly the same as everyone else. They get to wear exactly what everyone else wears, eat what everyone else eats, and do what everyone else does. They're all well taken care of - they just get nothing extra - NOTHING - until they make Upper Level. I won't get into all of what they need to do to make upper level, but suffice it to say they must be a positive leader in their group of eight and have stellar behavior for a week before they're even considered. Then, they get lots of extras.
And this works - superbly. The whole premise behind the Positive Peer Culture, btw, is this: teens naturally rebel and resist the authority of adults in favor of the approval and acceptance of their peers. So, all you have to do is get a kid in with positive peers, and you've got it licked. (That's a lot easier said than done, btw). But it is much easier when you control the kids' access to desired things/activities - whatever.
I heard one of that school's administrators (the school in the SC decision) today describing what it was they hoped to accomplish with their drug testing policy, and she explained it almost exactly as I've described our program: they will limit access to the things the kids desire to those who can do what is right - those who wish to emulate them will follow suit.
This is your facility for juvenile offenders?
Indulge me, because I see a clear connection between what this school was trying to do, and what we in my facility have been extremely successful in accomplishing:
just might not be the compliment you intend it to be.
Most public high school principals wouldn't consider the comparison particularly flattering, I think.
I don't think it's appropriate to treat all high school children the same way that you treat those who have already broken the law.
If what you're getting at is that expecting juvenile offenders to do what is right is expecting too much - think again. We have the most hardened of them doing exactly what we expect within a week or two.
I'm not sure how you could have gotten that from my post. Here, try this sentence again:
I don't think it's appropriate to treat all high school children the same way that you treat those who have already broken the law.
It could as justifiably be asserted that US currency is unconstitutional and that the legislation and rulings of Congress and the Supreme Court are the same, since reference to 'God' is regularly made during the proceedings of both.
As a matter of fact, by going just a bit farther, the militant atheist could claim that the US Declaration of Independence is also unconstitutional, and that the US defaults back to the status of a British colony.
One can see where such arrant foolishness leads as the Ninth Circuit Court indulged in, which brings the questions up of why this court appeared not to have anticipated the likely general response to this ruling, why Injustice Goodwin so quickly put a stay on his own ruling pending a 'review' by the 9th, and why this court's past rulings have been so frequently overturned by the USSC.
I'm not sure how you could have gotten that from my post.
We x-posted. My Message # 23391 was in response to your Message # 23388. I hadn't refreshed after asking you why, before answering my own question.
But if you'd asked that same question of one of our staff members or teachers, they'd probably be offended that you were comparing their facility to a public school.
There is never a good reason to suspect anyone of anything "absent any evidence at all."
Can we all just pause and reflect on that?
Brilliantly on point, Arky.
It's really bothering me lately that too many people are losing sight of basics that imo should be not only obvious to any American, but actively promoted.
If it is fine for public funds to go to religious schools via vouchers, what's to stop additional funds flowing?
Here's my point: we already must foot the bill for students who go to private schools and need to be tested for various learning disabilities. We must also pay for special education aides and even care workers for disabled students whose parents insist on keeping them in those private religious schools. Private schools receive library grants and other de minimus types of funding that flow from the federal government.
What if some parent who chose to send their child to a religious private school on a voucher suddenly discovers that he is athletically gifted and wants an equivalent sports program for his kid but also wants to have him remain in the private school? Or some other curriculum advantage in public schools not present private schools?
What to take bets on how long it takes before this comes up? And what will be basis for preventing this? How will the SC be able to distinguish in any meaningful way between voucher public dollars and public funds going for these other educational programs?
My concern is that the SC has blurred the line between these areas even more than before, perhaps irreparably, and holding off these other breaks in the wall between public funding and religious education will be even harder, IMO.
In a discussion on the Atlantic, one person was describing how children from the Catholic school are brought to the public school every day to use the computer labs because their school has none.
You have no idea how many parents I've spoken to who moved immediately from that attitude to I guess I should've been searching his/her room... after their straight-A kid was busted.
In case you haven't noticed, there are not as many clear distinctions between stoner, jock, geek, etc. as there once were, and drugs are the primary common thread.
You may also have missed the thrust of the anti-drug programs initiated over the past few years at the local, state and national levels - the "Parents: the Anti-Drug" ads, for instance, or the "Attitudes Matter" programs -both of which, besides stressing talking to your kids about substance abuse, also are trying to undo this appallingly stupid trend - which has proven to be disastrous - of not "invading" one's kids' privacy...their room is sacred...and all that nonsense, by advising parents to know who their kids are with - to check up on them - to search their room, etc.
Common sense stuff.
I talk to my child regularly about those issues and a host of others, and I keep an eye on her, know where she's going and who she's with.
Do I read her diary? No.
Do I snoop in her letters? No.
Do I eavesdrop on her phone conversations? No.
Do I examine her pee? No.
The school is responsible for all its students.
I am not, nor is the school, responsible for seeing that students don't do drugs. I'm responsible for pursuing any suspicion that they are doing them at school or school functions and acting accordingly, which is very reasonable.
When there are drugs in the community, there are drugs in the school. Not only do schools now have the right to test students for drugs who wish to engage in extra-curriculars, but I believe they have the obligation to do so, particularly in schools that are experiencing drug problems - which is the case in the school that brought the matter to the SC.
I've got to head out the door, now. I may be back later this afternoon or evening.
Tonight there will be a test, here is the study material...be there or begone!
Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem:
Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternam peribit.
Fides autem catholica haec est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur.
Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam seperantes.
Alia est enim persona Patris alia Filii, alia Spiritus Sancti:
Sed Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas, aequalis gloria, coeterna maiestas.
Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis Spiritus Sanctus. Increatus Pater, increatus Filius, increatus Spiritus Sanctus.
Immensus Pater, immensus Filius, immensus Spiritus Sanctus.
Aeternus Pater, aeternus Filius, aeternus Spiritus Sanctus.....
before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled,
without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the Catholic Faith is this:
That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,
neither confounding the Persons,
nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father,
another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the
Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible,
and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty,
and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three
Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord,
and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge
every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,
So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say,
There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son,
neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other;
none is greater, or less than another; But the whole three Persons
are co-eternal together and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid,
the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also
believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess,
that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and Man of the substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man,
of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the
Father, as touching his manhood; Who, although he be God and Man,
yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead
into flesh but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance,
but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul
and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sitteth at the right hand of the Father,
God Almighty, from whence he will come
to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies
and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life
everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully,
he cannot be saved.
I sympathize with JJ on the use of the pledge in public schools.
At my traditional private school in the early 1970s, I remember saying the pledge once in my three years there. The ninth graders were to lead the school, and there was considerable whispering among us as to whether we remembered it. Fortunately, I was the flag bearer, so it was enough to stand solemnly.
We should count ourselves fortunate that we no longer must salute the flag in the same way as we used to: one hand over the heart, the other extended in the "Roman" way. There is a photograph by Bourke-White (?) of black kids at a public school in the deep south during the 1930s saluting the American flag in that manner. The ironies are as exqusite as the picture is bizarre.
The Supremes Pledge Allegiance to God.
Praise the Lord and pass the vouchers to the churches!
Arky:
The "guilty until proven innocent" strawman is best applied in the context on which it is based -the legal arena - because it assumes a violation of rights. Number one, no kid has a right to engage in extracurricular activities. Yes - they have a right not to be randomly urine-dropped, but if they want to engage in an activity for which they know in advance they will need to provide a sample, then it is not a random drop.
Second - with guilt comes assumed consequences (and let's not quibble here, please - you can qualify that all you want, but if it weren't true we wouldn't be having this discussion). If the kid turns up positive, there is no consequence - nothing is taken from him that he had before, he is not required to do anything he would otherwise not be required to do --- he has lost precisely nothing.
No one is turned over to the authorities for a positive screen, unless they are submitting to that screen as part of their probation/parole conditions.
Such a case would not even make it to court.
On another topic, here is a portion of a letter from Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush commenting on the religious zealots of his day...it was written in 1803:
I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten. On the contrary, it is because I have reflected on it, that I find much more time necessary for it than I can at present dispose of. I have a view of the subject which ought to displease neither the rational Christian nor Deists, and would reconcile many to a character they have too hastily rejected. I do not know that it would reconcile the _genus irritabile vatum_ who are all in arms against me. Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be softened. The delusion into which the X. Y. Z. plot shewed it possible to push the people; the successful experiment made under the prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity thro' the U. S.; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians & Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
L O N D O N, June 28 Tired of losing your cell phone? Having other people listen in on your conversations? What about all the times you've had to turn it off at public events, or leave it behind while swimming?
Two British inventors unveiled a prototype of a device Friday that could solve those problems.
But there's a drawback your dentist would have to install it inside one of your molars.
Unofficially known as the "telephone tooth," the device would allow you to receive phone calls, listen to music, even connect to verbal sites on the Internet without anyone nearby hearing a thing.
Probably wouldn't work for me since I already have tinnitus. I couldn't tell my tooth from my ear.
Pardon my apparent pre-occupation with this, btw. We are, and have been for a couple of months, in the process of interpreting recent legislation regarding whom we are to test, and as of right now we are interpreting it to mean everyone who enters the system, whether for a misdemeanor or a felony. Also, we are DNAing all who would normally be fingerprinted, and it is my job to teach everyone how to do this stuff on the new equipment we got with a huge federal grant - infrared fingerprint scanner tied into our (updated and vastly superior) online mugshot system --- and every type of urine and saliva test out there.
As a side note to the previous discussion, the biggest challenge in this whole endeavor is no longer developing dependable, consistent tests - we've pretty much got that beat. The big thing now is testing the collected fluids for adulterants. You would not believe what people do - from ingesting bleach and toxic cleaning fluids, to buying name-brand adulterants at the local head shop, to avoid detection.
And btw - why in the world are there pigs flying across that story?
Dubya is having a colonoscopy! Can I help?
Cheney will seize power while the boy has something other than his thumb up his butt.
The Chess team is going down!
in any event, in those few hours i suspect the newly omnipotent cheney will launch war on every country whose name ends in a consonant, place anyone whose ever had a falafel in internment camps, and change the pledge of allegiance to be say: God god god, one god, christian god, one god, and one god, god, da bears, god, da bulls, god god god, ditka. one nation under god. god god. amen.
cheney will launch war on every country whose name ends in a
consonant
Maybe someone should tell him about Wyoming then?
God god
god, one god, christian god, one god, and one god, god, da bears,
god, da bulls, god god god, ditka. one nation under god. god god.
amen
is precisely what Mrs. Ditka says when, you know.
I wonder how they will maneuver that scope around Bush's cranium.
If the sabre rattling stops for five minutes you can assume he is no longer concious.
"Basically, pee-testing for anything but legal purposes is about as sacrosanct as going to confession."
Not.
A friend of mine works for a company that does random piss tests. He drove to work one day along with one of his fellow workers. His buddy tested positive. The company called the state police and they searched my friend's car.
They didn't find anything, and even if they did I doubt if it would stand up in court as a valid search. But it is a chilling tale nonetheless.
By the way, the company makes wire. Its not a defense industry or anything like that.
PS I assume the piss test actually took place on a prior day, since I doubt if it could be taken and tested all in the same day.
An excerpt:
With the U.S. Supreme Court signaling it may soon let public schools expand drug testing beyond student athletes to include those involved in any after-school activity, Modoc officials will vote today on whether to go one step further: to test all of its 300 high school students, whether they are suspected of using drugs or not.
The Feds should secretly collect DNA samples from all of them, too. You never know. They might come in handy.
If you trust in God, then send us everything you've got with "In God We Trust" written on it before it's too late!
Restore the Pledge of Allegiance Campaign 
A friend of mine works for a company that does random piss tests. He drove to work one day along with one of his fellow workers. His buddy tested positive. The company called the state police and they searched my friend's car.
I don't want to imply that your friend isn't being truthful with you, but maybe his buddy isn't telling him everything? I don't know of any cop that would even entertain such a phone call, let alone do a search based on that info. If they did, they'd be sued faster than you could say Geoffrey Fieger.
As for the test itself - three to eight minutes for a 5-panel urine test that would screen for THC, cocaine, PCP, amphetamines, and opiates. But most employers (if they're smart) require that any positives are sent to a lab for more "thorough" testing (since most preliminary tests are done at a local walk-in clinic). This can take anywhere from a few hours to a few days, depending on the amount of business the lab has.
We do a lot of business with one such lab, and while it's very rare that they'll show our test to have been a false positive, they do frequently pick up additional positives from the same sample. For instance, we'll send them urine that gave us a positive THC, and they'll get a positive THC and cocaine, because their testing uses a lower baseline.
Cheney warns of preemptive strikes
June 28, 2002 | RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) --
As he prepared to assume the presidential powers temporarily, Vice President Dick Cheney warned anew on Friday that the United States could make a pre-emptive strike at some point against a threatening foe.
"We must take the battle to the enemy and where necessary pre-empt grave threats to our country before they materialize," Cheney told several hundred people in Charlotte, N.C.
"The only path to safety is the path of action. The United States of America will act, and we will defeat the enemies of freedom," he said.
President Bush will transfer power briefly to Cheney on Saturday when the president undergoes a colon check at Camp David.
Kitchen says that same daughter was being threatened with rape by a classmate who was a gang member, so every day she would leave work at 2:30 to pick her up and take her home.
Now Kitchen, a single mother with five children, has another daughter in sixth grade. Instead of the 35 students who crowded her elder girl's class, her younger daughter shares her classroom with perhaps 12 other kids, and she's on the honor roll. Kitchen uses the Cleveland voucher program -- upheld by the Supreme Court on a 5-4 vote Thursday -- to pay her daughter's tuition at Saint John Nottingham, a Lutheran school. She doesn't care at all that her tax money is flowing over the wall that once decisively separated church and state.
From Slate - the beginning, middle and end of the voucher debate.
The Next Hurdle
According to the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) of the U.S. Department of Education, only 3 percent of all public schools require students to wear uniforms. About one-fourth (26%) of these schools initiated the requirement prior to the 1994-95 school year; 40 percent initiated it between the 1994-95 and 1995-96 school years; and 34 percent initiated it in the 1996-97 school year. These results are from an NCES fast-response survey Violence and Discipline Problems in U.S. Public Schools 1996-97; NCES Number 98030; March 18, 1998.
That is the beginning of the voucher debate. So long as we allow and even encourage poor people to have far more children than they can ever afford, and let them use taxpayer money--far beyond what they contribute on their own--to educate their kids, what earthly reason will they have to cut back?
At the very least the voucher laws ought to have a "per family" limit, so that it provides people like her with an incentive to have fewer children.
So while Daniel may find that story uplifting--gosh, her daughter isn't getting rape threats--I think the story completely misses the real point. And Kitchen at least seems to work, which means she's not the lowest figure on my ire totem.
One of the reasons the public schools in the inner cities are so very bad is because there are so many children had by so many people who don't contribute adequately (if at all) to the tax base. Until we start penalizing them for that behavior, vouchers aren't going to fix the problem.
Why we're not one nation "under God."
By David Greenberg
Greenberg...greenberg....take that name down JAH for the List
"Ed Yee says he's nuts for America. Other people say he's just nuts.
For 10 years, Yee has been pasting and painting American flags around North Beach, San Francisco's Little Italy. Yee, it seems, is insulted by the blatant use of the Italian flag in his all-American city.
But this time he's gone too far.
The Department of Public Works wants police to arrest him on charges of felony vandalism after he allegedly caused $5,000 in damage to freshly painted city light poles.
Yee ramped up his flag-pasting in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorists attacks, partly to express his patriotism and partly because the city spruced up North Beach with more green, white and red in an attempt to bring tourists back."
And Thomas Jefferson was spinning in his grave.
Good article, Jex...especaially the last paragraph.
See, this is what I find very compelling, and it is what surprises me about the SC's casual dismissal of the phrase "under God" (thus far). I think that the Ninth Court's comment that the SC had not yet applied their own rules to the phrase is on point. The phrase was added as a specific endorsement of monotheism.
Bush said the ruling from a panel with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in California ignored the fact that the Declaration of Independence acknowledged "we receive our rights from God." He said the court's decision was proof of the need for "common-sense judges" who "understand we derive our rights from God."
So Bush would never appoint an atheist or agnostic, based purely on a religious litmus test. I imagine any Dem would say the same.
R. The Lion of the tribe of Juda has conquered, the root of David.
V. Let thy mercies be upon us, O Lord.
R. As we have hoped in thee.
V. O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. And Let my cry come unto thee.
LONDON (Reuters) - A British theater company has dropped the word hunchback from its stage adaptation of the classic novel "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" to avoid offending disabled people, newspapers reported Friday.
Oddsocks Productions has renamed its touring production "The Bellringer of Notre Dame" after discussions with a disability adviser raised the possibility of offending people with spina bifida or the disfiguring scoliosis of the spine.
"We have not changed the novel in any way, we simply felt changing the title would cause less offence of people," producer Elli Mackenzie was quoted as saying by the Daily Mirror.
The magical Sir Ian McKellan takes on a new role for as grand marshal of this weekend's Pride Parade. 
boun pranza, cara
Maybe I'll take him a copy of the Kushner speech.
I thought the devil went down to Georgia?
No matter. It is good to see the huzzahs from a Kusher speech lifted from a Falwell speech with the names changed around.
For Falwell, homos create hurricanes.
For Kushner, evil has a brother in the Glades and Australia is evil for not supporting Kyoto.
For me, I get to see that those who sneer at the rubes who "Amen!" to the PTL have the rube's enthusiasm for threats of damnation as well.
"IT'S THE WORST PLACE on earth," a horrified young British woman says in the course of a new off-Broadway play set in Afghanistan. "Homebody/Kabul" is the work of the American playwright Tony Kushner, who staked a claim in the early 1990s to the mantle of Bertolt Brecht and George Bernard Shaw as a dramatist intending to merge high art and left-wing opinions. "Good politics will produce good aesthetics," Kushner has said. "Really good politics will produce really good aesthetics, and really good aesthetics...[will] probably produce truth, which is to say, progressive politics."
Few contemporary writers have risen as quickly to prominence as Kushner, borne to Olympus as he was entirely on the back of the New York Times drama critic, Frank Rich. Fewer still have made so little of their prominence. In 1993 and 1994, Kushner won two Tonys and a Pulitzer Prize for his play "Angels in America," a seven-hour "gay fantasia on national themes," the text of which was basically completed 10 years ago. In the past decade Kushner has produced nothing of consequence. Following the yawns inspired by a short play called "Slavs!" in 1996, Kushner complained: "It's much easier to talk about being gay than it is to talk about being a socialist. People are afraid of socialism."
It's perhaps understandable that people are "afraid" of a political theory that made most of the 20th century a living hell, even though Kushner remains fascinated with it. But it's more likely the audiences that attended "Slavs!" were exhausted by Kushner's re-creation of a college-dormitory bull session about the failure of the Soviet Union. The main characters in "Slavs!" are supposed to be ancient Soviet apparatchiks, but they're really loud-mouthed American fellow travelers sitting in a Greenwich Village coffeehouse blathering at each other about the death of communism.
To a large degree, Kushner shares those sentiments. He wants a big, beautiful Theory to live by, even though he resides in an age that has invalidated living by theory alone. The further problem is that, unlike Shaw and Brecht, Kushner has no idea what that Big Theory might be. Shaw was a Fabian Socialist. Brecht was a Stalinist. Above all things, they were universalists, whereas Kushner became famous because he was a very particular kind of writer at a very particular moment in time.
"I didn't set out to write a play about AIDS," he has said of "Angels in America." "I set out to write a play about what it was like to be a gay, Jewish, leftist man in New York City in mid-'80s Reagan America." In "Angels in America," a present-day AIDS patient--a gay, leftist man living in New York City--learns he is an Old Testament prophet here to announce the coming of a new age, and he rises from his deathbed to deliver the word of the Lord.
Kushner has a way of opining about the "Great Work" of our time that makes one's jaw drop. His interviews provide an X-ray view into a mind calcified by unexamined leftist prejudices. They're sentiments shared around a coffeehouse table with like-minded folk who have never exchanged a word with anyone whose way of thinking differs even a scintilla from their own.
"What used to be called liberal is now called radical, what used to be called radical is now called insane, what used to be called reactionary is now called moderate, and what used to be called insane is now called solid conservative thinking," Kushner said in 1995.
All theater is political, in his view: "'Long Day's Journey [Into Night]' is about money and health care. '[A] Streetcar [Named Desire]' is a play about a prefeminist woman in the '40s who has no job and is drinking."
"Having the correct opinions is not the same as knowing the truth, having Wisdom; some people have that, but I don't know where they got it any more than I know, really, why I'm gay. But I'm reasonably sure I'm gay and I'm reasonably sure my opinions are at least 65% right 70% of the time, which makes me cleverer than all of the Republican party and 90% of the Democratic party and a whole lot of others besides."
His certitude about the rightness of his own opinions is probably unshakable, but many of his fans in New York were surely shaken down to their boots by an astonishing interview he gave to the New York Times Magazine in the wake of September 11. "My impression," said the writer once hailed as a visionary prophet of the New Millennium, "is that New Yorkers are a lot less hawkish as a city now than we were during the Gulf War, when we had no legitimate complaint and there was a frightening feeling of the city all falling in lock step behind the first Bush. Now we have suffered terribly, and we seem to be responding with far less eagerness for war."
Indeed it is to our credit. What New Yorkers learned was something that Kushner is actually trying to teach the world in "Homebody/Kabul"--that there existed in the world a regime of sadistic barbarity, a fanatical regime that could not be reasoned or negotiated with, that could only be destroyed.
In the course of his three-hour, forty-five minute epic about Afghanistan, Kushner attempts variously to blame the condition of that sorry nation on British imperialism, oil companies, the Soviet invasion, and the covert U.S. support for anti-Soviet rebels there.
Kushner has said he was drawn to the subject of Afghanistan by his interest in the Soviet Union. In the 1980s, he recalled, "I found a great deal of value in the theories of socialism. And having been a student--not a supporter--of the Soviet Union, I was very disturbed, very repulsed by news accounts of what was happening during the Soviet-Afghanistan war. I found this conflict between what I believed to be the human values of socialism and the grotesque consequences of the attempt to apply some version of it to real politics."
His first play, "A Bright Room Called Day," received a brilliantly damning notice upon its premiere in New York in January 1991, just before Operation Desert Storm commenced:
"Perhaps if the world were not actually on the brink of war, 'A Bright Room Called Day' . . . would not be an early front-runner for the most infuriating play of 1991. But then again, is the time ever right for a political work in which the National Socialism of the Third Reich is trivialized by being equated with the 'national senility' of the Reagan era? Or in which George Bush's ultimatum to Iraq, the Iran-contra scandal and Mr. Reagan's AIDS policy are all frivolously lumped together as historical progeny of the Reichstag fire and Dachau?"
The author of these words was none other than Frank Rich, who only two years later would describe "Angels in America"--which emerges from precisely the same worldview that informed "A Bright Room Called Day"--as "a true millennial work of art, uplifting, hugely comic and pantheistically religious in a very American style." But "A Bright Room Called Day" wasn't about dying AIDS patients, and so it wasn't awash in unearned sentimentality like "Angels in America."
But the play reveals that Kushner has actually read far too deeply and considered the matter far too seriously to lay the blame for the Taliban at the feet of the United States or Britain. The Taliban are--were--a singular sort of menace, and Afghanistan is and always will be a singular sort of place. Those singular aspects of Afghanistan and the Taliban give "Homebody/Kabul" a surprising and powerful resonance. This is a haunting and beautiful play in spite of its author's best efforts to ruin it.
Does this mean that Tony Kushner has grown as a writer and a thinker? Almost certainly not. It means that when it comes to the face of evil in Afghanistan, some truths are so obvious even the most determined anti-American leftist can't miss them.
SOUTHFIELD, Mich. (AP) -- Two young children died while they were left alone in a hot car for more than three hours by their mother, who was having her hair done, police said Saturday.
The mother was being held on an open charge of murder pending a review by prosecutors, the Southfield Police Department said. Police did not release the 25-year-old Detroit resident's name.
I'm shocked that your liberal sensibilities could so cold-bloodedly advocate such a punishment. Your Texas neighbors must be having some effect on you.
Unfortunately, I fear they are just stupid and incompetent.
What a relief it is to discover you can be so Old Testament when the need arises.
The woman here who recently set her house on fire to kill her children (they survived, thankfully), however, may fit CalGal's figuring they'll get off theory.
I'm wondering where you got the idea I am such a wuss; I have posted here in support of the death penalty, after all.
My neighbor, a card carrying and bumper sticker proclaiming Republican keeps saying he's sure I can be turned.
(I would link directly to the New York Times website, instead of to this Yahoo article, but for some reasons the NY Times website is not coming up for me today.)
Over the last 20 years, the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit has developed a reputation for being wrong more often than any other federal appeals court.
In recent years, in cases involving medical marijuana, assisted suicide, disabilities and more mundane issues, dozens of the court's decisions have been reversed unanimously by the Supreme Court.
"In the 1996 term, for example, the Ninth Circuit was reversed in at least 24 cases a staggering number and at least 16 of them were 9-0 reversals," Akhil Amar, a law professor at Yale, wrote in an online commentary. "When you're not picking up the votes of anyone on the court, something is screwy."
The Ninth Circuit may be facing yet another reversal. On Wednesday, it touched off an avalanche of criticism by pronouncing the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional.
While the court is famously liberal, critics attribute its record in the Supreme Court more to its unwieldy size than to ideology.
It is by far the largest federal appeals court. At full strength, it has 28 judges, almost twice as many as the next biggest circuit. Its decisions affect a fifth of the nation's population and a third of its land, in nine states and two territories.
Of the court's 23 active judges, 17 were appointed by Democratic presidents. That makes it "vastly more liberal than most other courts of appeals, and certainly the Supreme Court," said Eugene Volokh, a law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles.
But Mark A. Perry, an appellate lawyer in Washington who was a clerk for a Ninth Circuit judge, said ideology does not account for the court's track record. "Size gives rise to conflict and confusion," he said. "There is no consistency."
It is by far the largest federal appeals court. At full strength, it has 28 judges, almost twice as many as the next biggest circuit. Its decisions affect a fifth of the nation's population and a third of its land, in nine states and two territories.
Of the court's 23 active judges, 17 were appointed by Democratic presidents. That makes it "vastly more liberal than most other courts of appeals, and certainly the Supreme Court," said Eugene Volokh, a law professor at the University of California in Los Angeles.
But Mark A. Perry, an appellate lawyer in Washington who was a clerk for a Ninth Circuit judge, said ideology does not account for the court's track record. "Size gives rise to conflict and confusion," he said. "There is no consistency."
now this oughta be a tagline.
I just read yesterday the push to split it up isn't really generated by a dislike of its size. It is the Northwestern states, pissed off by their ecologically friendly decisions. They want a different court to get more opinions in their favor.
Can't remember where I read it (haven't read the linked article yet), but that does sound right.
Also, in regards to our earlier conversation, I have yet to see an analyst attack the opinion on merit. More than one has mentioned that it seems very well-reasoned.
PHOENIX (Reuters) - A 29-year-old contract firefighter who was charged on Sunday with setting one of the major Arizona wildfires, allegedly started the blaze because he wanted some seasonal work, prosecutors said.
Leonard Gregg, who works as a seasonal firecrew member for the federal Bureau of Indian Affairs, allegedly set two fires, one of which grew into the huge Rodeo fire that merged with another blaze and charred an area larger than New York City .
At a hearing in U.S. District Court in Flagstaff, Gregg was charged with two counts of willfully and without authority setting fire to timber, said U.S. District Magistrate Stephen Verkamp.
Also, in regards to our earlier conversation, I have yet to see an analyst attack the opinion on merit. More than one has mentioned that it seems very well-reasoned.
True, but there's also been almost no analyst I've seen who hasn't wondered what was going through the judges' heads when they passed down that decision.
When the news of the decision first came out, you predicted it would make things uncomfortable for Bush, politically. No one else believes so. Certainly not the Democrats who roundly condemned the decision or the Senate who voted 99-0 (with Jessie Helms not participating for health reasons; I wonder how he would have voted).
When even Democrats like Paul Wellstone vote against the court's decision, you can believe that it is no victory for liberals. What's more, Bush is probably praying right now that the Supreme Court will -- by some miracle --allow the ruling to stand as law. Fund raising for religious groups that support him will skyrocket and the Democrats will have a difficult time stopping a constitutional amendment from cluttering up the political agenda until 2004.
I think I said I would enjoy seeing him squirm, and wasn't thinking politically. I thought the media would hold his feet to the fire on the fact that he doesn't like people who don't believe in God. Instead, they actively encouraged it, and the President went ahead and declared that he won't be appointing judges that don't believe in God. No one seemed to object. Color me more than a bit astonished, until I realized that the media is worried about its own image, and is busy jumping on board. Not that their readiness to sign on didn't stop them from jeering at Congress' craven cowardice.
But no argument from me that I was wrong about the squirming; I was pretty disgusted with the reaction--speaking as a non-believer who has learned just how little the Establishment clause means to most people. The reaction seems to be majority rules. Given that the Bill of Rights was supposed to protect the minority, I find that more than a bit offputting.
At no point did I think it would be a "victory for liberals". In fact, much as I loathed the Congressional reaction, I think it was wise politically, and all the Republican gloating won't change the reality--Dems weren't hurt a bit by this. It was a Nixon appointee who wrote it, and the reasoning was all based on decisions written by Republican appointees (O'Connor, Kennedy). As any number of conservative columnists pointed out, the decision was in fact squarely in line with SC jurisprudence, or whatever it is called.
So politically, I think it's pretty much a dead issue at this point, unless something changes or a party operative figures out something clever to say about it. That's true whether it is overturned or not.
In its first sentence the article already points to a flaw. A court is not capable of 'prevention'. You need a crime first. You need some authority to make an arrest.
How can they say this will prevent future Saddams, Hitler's, and PolPots? How will this court decide when it's a war vs. when they should honor a nation's sovereignty? Isn't this the same kind of 'meddling' for which the US is criticized?
Questions & Answers About the International Criminal Court might interest you.
Given the rationale for adding references to God to the pledge and US currency, that it would provide a contrast in our struggle with "godless" communism: wouldn't it be a good time to resecularize the pledge and US currency to highlight the difference between the new forces of evil that are driven by their momotheistic faith, and the tolerance and freedom to practice all religions (including freedom from religion) that the founding fathers so clearly had in mind when writing the Constitution?
One would think.
I am still literally stunned that the President could declare that he would only appoint judges that believed in God. I knew the prejudice was pretty widespread, but I at least thought someone would comment on it.
I was mulling this a bit more last night and tried to convince myself that there will be a backlash against this reaction. But I'm just whistling past the graveyard.
No. ;)
- The court would not recognize the press' privilege to keep their sources anonymous.
- The court would not recognize the right of a citizen not to bear witness against themselves.
- The court would not recognize the authority and judgement of our own judicial system.
- I am not convinced its justice would be particularly blind (not saying our system is perfect... but I am convinced it's better than theirs).
I personally am not willing to have US citizens subjugate to any power other than our constitution.
So if a private US citizen commits a crime in another country, that country has no right to investigate the crime and if need be bring that person to trial?
If a US citizen commits a crime outside of of the US of course they are subject to those laws and probably won't have their constitutional rights guaranteed.
Because of that, I don't think a foreign national is protected by our bill of rights while in this country.
Monday, July 1, 2002
Phil Helsel and Justin Paprocki
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
A new line of public-health research suggests that subdivisions in which residents must rely on their cars instead of their feet may contribute to poor health.
"The problem with sprawl is that we tend to build these nice manicured lawns, but no sidewalks,'' said Lois Hall, program coordinator for the Ohio Department of Health cancer program. "It's that whole environment that's conducive to unhealthy behavior and unhealthy risks.''
It has public-health researchers, environmentalists and planners talking, especially in central Ohio, where suburbs have experienced tremendous growth during the past decade.
The state Health Department, for example, recently featured an item on urban sprawl and its effects on health on the cover of its monthly cancer newsletter. It cited obesity, air quality, pedestrian safety and a host of other problems that might be associated with sprawl.
And a study by researchers at the National Center for Environmental Health -- a division of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention -- suggests the same connection is circulating across the country.
Questions and Answers about the ICC
How will national courts and the ICC work together?
The treaty gives the ICC jurisdiction that is complementary to national jurisdictions. This 'principle of complementarity', as it is known, gives states the primary responsibility and duty to prosecute the most serious international crimes, while allowing the ICC to step in only as a last resort if the states fail to implement their duty -- that is, only if investigations and, if appropriate, prosecutions are not carried out in good faith. Bona fide efforts to discover the truth and to hold accountable those responsible for any acts of genocide, crimes against humanity, or war crimes will bar the ICC from proceeding.
At a press conference on June 12, U.S. Secretary of Defense William Cohen, while opposing the ICC, admitted that the Court's limited authority would protect US troops and officials: "We have demonstrated over the years wherever there is an allegation of abuse on the part of a soldier we have a judicial system that will deal with it very effectively," Cohen said. "As long as we have a respected judicial system then there should be some insulation factor." That is, the ICC would then be barred from proceedings against Americans.
Who decides what constitutes a 'failure', or the failure of a state to act 'in good faith'?
This remains open ended as far as I can see. If we try someone and find them innocent... the ICC could follow that we failled to act in good faith and attempt to retry the person.
And again... it doesn't protect our press. If they interview a suspect... they apparently can demand that reporter to testify against the suspect of be held in contempt. Would this not endanger reporters, since a potential suspect may add reporters (future witnesses) to their list of targets?
Judge Rakoff, who sits on the Federal District Court in Manhattan, had told lawyers in the case in a preliminary ruling in April that he intended to declare the death penalty act unconstitutional unless prosecutors could persuade him otherwise. Today, he followed through on that earlier thought.
"In brief, the court found that the best available evidence indicates that, on the one hand, innocent people are sentenced to death with materially greater frequency than was previously supposed and that, on the other hand, convincing proof of their innocence often does not emerge until long after their convictions," Judge Rakoff wrote in his 28-page opinion.
"It follows," he continued, "that implementation of the Federal Death Penalty Act not only deprives innocent people of a significant opportunity to prove their innocence, and thereby violates procedural due process, but also creates an undue risk of executing innocent people, and thereby violates substantive due process."
I can't say anything about the second point since I don't understand "substantive due process" very well.
Officials in the German state of Baden-Wuerttemberg said that a Tupolev and a Boeing were involved in the crash.
The planes are reported to have gone down near the town of Sigmariegen, near Lake Constance.
It is not yet clear how many casualties there are.
An eyewitness told German state television that he saw two balls of fire in the sky.
They've had near misses in the US despite the gizmos.
The DHL plane started to dive when its on-board warning system instructed the pilot to drop altitude to avoid a crash, he said. If the Boeing had maintained its course, there certainly would not have been a crash, he said.
Apparently both planes decided to dive as evasive action. I'm surprised they don't have a rule similar to sailing... plane on the right dives, plane on the left climbs...
ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI, July 2, 2002, 10:00 a.m. CDT (July 1, 2002, 15:00 UTC) - - Amid applause and handshakes, Mission Control Director Joe Ritchie announced today that Steve Fossett had officially circumnavigated the globe in Bud Light Spirit of Freedom at a press conference in Mission Control at Washington University in St. Louis.
Fossett crossed 117 degrees East longitude at approximately 8:40 a.m. (CDT), making him the first person to ever successfully circle the globe in a balloon alone.
The front-angle test causes damage to the bumper cover, a turn signal, the fog light and the vehicles underside.
It sustained over $1,100 worth of damage in the front angle barrier test, says ONeill.
In the rear tests, things look pretty good until Institute engineers get a view that surprises them.
When we looked at the bumper system, we concluded that the manufacturer had, in effect, cheated, says ONeill.
Thats because, ONeill says, Saturn put a stiff foam insert right at the center of the bumper, right where manufacturers know the insurance institute performs the rear pole test.
That foam is there to do well in this test, not to do well in real world crashes, says ONeill. Its only going to help in the dead center hit.
As a Saturn owner... who is perfectly happy with my car so far... I have had repeated poor dealings with Saturn as a company. I won't bore you with the details, but in all but one of my dealings with them I have found them to be very two-faced to customers.
Hardly the bastion of customer service they claim to be.
So it doesn't suprise me that they'd "cheat" on this test.
UEBERLINGEN, Germany (AP) Swiss authorities said a collision-warning system was out of service in the Zurich tower when it took control of a Russian airliner and a cargo jet shortly before they collided at 35,000 feet, killing 71 people, mostly children headed for an end-of-school beach holiday.
As an international investigation began, Swiss air traffic control also acknowledged Wednesday that one of the two controllers on duty had left the tower for a break during the maintenance operation on the warning system which alerts controllers to the danger of a collision.
Patrick Herr, a spokesman for Swiss air traffic control, said it was "a purely theoretical question" whether the system alone could have prevented the disaster. "Many signs point to an exceptionally unlucky combination of circumstances."
I'll say...
It doesn't surprise me that anyone in business cheats anymore...heard a report on NPR last night about a French company cheating big time after going to "the American business accounting practice." Wow, what a legacy...American business, land of the cheat.
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Gunfire erupted Thursday at the ticket counter of Israel's El Al airlines ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport, killing two people, police said.
With security on high alert around the country for a possible terrorist attack on July Fourth, the shooting occurred at midday. Police said a gunman approached someone at the Tom Bradley International Terminal and opened fire.
One of the two killed was the gunman, said Alex Baez, a police spokesman.
No other details about the two were immediately available.
Governor Urges Calm
Bush-Cheney AWOL
Jul 4 4:43pm PT
Three Dead in L.A. Airport Shooting
1 Dead in Small Plane Crash Near L.A.
America Celebrates Its 226th Birthday
Dead Cows and Fire Ants Float on the Brazos
Well, duh lady...you "rebuild" in a freakin' flood plain which has been known to flood out in years past and what did you expect? That God would stop the rain?
what a fucking waste of tax dollars.
"My dad was in New York the night of" the terrorist attacks, Cahill's 12-year-old son, Austin Cahill, said Thursday.
His story inspired their float at the 20th annual New Roads/False River Fourth of July Boat Parade, said Austin, dressed as Uncle Sam.
Big Fun in the Old Home Town!
Dawn Cahill of Philadelphia and Barbara Kelly of Baton Rouge pretend to be a nurse and victim of the Sept. 11 World Trade Center attack during the boat parade. The boat's design won the Founder's Award trophy.
President Bush celebrated a highly spiritual Independence Day in West Virginia, recalling how "the wisdom and the blessing of Divine Providence" have guided the nation for 226 years.
Have you noticed that Bush is now using every opportunity to take the Pledge of Allegiance publicly?
Obviously he's an agent of a sinister foreign power.
BERLIN (Reuters) - Swiss air traffic control faced fresh questions Monday as investigators said an order to descend given to a Russian plane involved in a mid-air collision last week contradicted a warning from the plane's computer.
.....................
"Just under a minute before the collision both TCAS-Systems of the aircraft issued the warning 'Traffic, Traffic'. About 15 seconds later the TCAS in the Boeing 757 gave the command 'descend, descend' and the TCAS in the Tu-154 the command 'climb, climb'," the BFU said in a statement.
This is the main reason not to declare every little weather problem as a national disaster and hence eligible for federal funds. These people should not be subsidized for their repeated risk-taking. Were they to bear the full cost of their choices they would not rebuild over a flood plain.
Btw, Texas floods regularly. I cannot understand why better drainage systems haven't been put in place. But maybe that can also be attributed to the feds riding to the rescue so frequently these days.
Amen.
Witness: Murdered girl's mother was `dirty dancing' with defendant
Paragraph 8: Danielle's hair, blood and fingerprints were found in Westerfield's motor home and a spot of her blood was detected on a jacket he took to a dry cleaner two days after she was reported missing, according to testimony.
FORT WORTH Tuesday morning was a hectic one for the manager of a Fort Worth apartment complex. Busy directing cars as the complex's parking lots were restriped, the manager apparently lost track of what she had left in her own car.
Her 9-month-old son, Lorenzo, was in the white Chevy Blazer. The infant did not survive the searing heat, and she found him dead at lunchtime.
"Austin police arrested a church pastor and his twin brother Tuesday, alleging they used a tree branch to beat unconscious an 11-year-old who misbehaved in Bible class. Joshua Thompson, 22, a pastor at Capitol City Baptist Church, and his brother Caleb turned themselves in Tuesday and were released on $25,000 bond, KEYE-TV reported. They were charged with injury to a child, a felony punishable by up to life in prison, the station reported. The alleged beating took place July 3, according to reports. The brothers thought the boy did not take his Bible verses seriously enough during a church-sponsored summer camp for Spanish-speaking students, officials said... Court records obtained by Reuters alleged that the beating lasted for 90 minutes, broke blood vessels and caused the boy's kidneys to fail."
I hope the Inglewood cops pull a Cleveland and just let the criminals have at each other.
Isn't it amazing how much damage a HANDCUFFED kid can do?
Sorry Daniel, but that cop is going down. He beat up yet another African-American -- putting him into a coma -- and the guy wasn't even charged with a crime.
this cop has "history".
;)
yeah, the part where they beat a handcuffed boy.
the officer seen hitting Chavez, three-year veteran Jeremy Morse, had been suspended
Three-year veteran? Have words lost their meaning?
What can I say? The kid barely got touched. We want these guys to be at the level of a Dunkin' Donut maker, who can clock-in and clock-out of emotion, yet they don't have that job.
Don't worry, though. He's toast and the kid has $500,000 coming to him..
They get paid a fair sight more than Dunkin Donut maker and yes, it is not only reasonable, but optimal, to expect them to keep a lid on it. I don't think that's part of their training, though. Too bad.
does it matter? would you continue beating a kid up once they were subdued...well, really i don't care what you would do, it's unacceptable for a cop to do so.
and Sickles, if they can't turn it on and turn it off then they shouldn't be in that job. and that's all there is to it. You know, what you may not want to know or understand is that lots of urban white cops are members of the KKK...they consider it a social club. I hope the guy not only looses his job but i hope he gets jail time. he won't, but he ought to.
Assholes like this make it even tougher for good cops to do their job. criminals are criminals, just because they have a badge doesn't make them immune from the law.
x-post, i see what you are saying now...
Cite?
The jobs are different. But you pretty much make my point, which underlies the shock and disgust of the polite citizenry when they are confronted by a brutal reality.
Without regard to circumstance, all of a sudden, they can't believe that cops aren't gentlemen barristers.
Then, everybody, from the lawyers to the standard grievance groups to the tabloid (read - regular) news to the concerned citizen gets a whack at condemning and profiting.
Cal,
I couldn't agree with this more. I seriously think cops should have traditional martial arts training, which includes the internal aspects. It could seriously help them in their job and dealing with their life outside of the job...helping to decrease their rate of substance and spousal abuse.
I hate the way we treat people in law enforcement and how ill prepared they are for the job...well, i don't want to get into my big long speil about how cops are used by the wealthy to protect the wealthy's interests and they don't really give a shit about the cops so they are really very happy to have people underprepared for the job, blah, blah, blah.
I'll look for the cite, don't know if i can recall were i read it from but there aren't, as you would imagine, hard statistics on it. The first time I ran into such information was when a former big time Philly racist (who turned states evidence) discussed the matter. I don't know if it's a national phenomenon but it's a real issue in Philly that even City Hall has addressed.
What "brutal reality"? That police are violent? I think you overestimate the politeness of the citizenry considerably if you think they are unaware of this reality.
Then why did you state it as if it were a fact?
one of the things cop watchers call for most frequently is improved training. many communities require at least a two year degree, some a four. Not surprisingly they are generally suburban communities who can afford a well trained police force. I would argue that no community can afford a poorly trained police force.
having studied martial arts for a while, i find it ridiculous that they are not mandatory for police. if anyone in the world should remain calm during potentially violent situations, it SHOULD be the police...if anyone should be able to subdue a knife wielding attacker without shooting them with a shotgun (anyone remember Eleanor Bumpers in the bronx?). a few months of aikido would do wonders.
in philly, an amtrak police officer (whateve they are...transit police, i guess) shot and killed a violent homeless man who was threatening people in the train station with...a CHAIR!!! for crying out loud...my grandmother could disarm and subdue a guy wielding a chair!
police work is difficult, so training should be paramount. otherwise, you get the blue wall of silence (the equivalent of the parish wall of silence in the catholic church) and shit happens. it's a difficult job, so for that reason we should be sure that the right people are doing it. violent psychopaths carrying guns don't make me feel very safe.
That all the training in the world cannot prevent some actions which occur in the heat of the moment.
On that not, adios all. I am off for a long weekend in the sun.
because it is a fact...that people don't check it as their major affiliation on a census form or on surveys doesn't make it less of a problem.
I think you underestimate the capabilities of police officers. It's not that tough a job.
It apparently is a fact in the same way that Tinkerbell is a fairy; you wish it really, really hard and lo! it's true.
Supporting data would be useful.
it's kinda like someone saying, "there are lots of swingers in america" but no statistical surveys to prove it. you can't cite a reliable source, but you can certainly locate swingers easily enough.
how do you survey the KKK affiliations of police officers? when it is brought up as potentially a problem by city hall and by former police officers, you go on that and speculate that it's probably got some shred of truth...especially considering philly is in close proximity to some of the major white-supremacist groups in the nation and considering the rather racist perspectives of the philly FOP.
we have personally witnessed a number of incidents led by these white-supremacists IN philadelphia. it is more than possible that some of the cops have such affiliations. why should they be immune to it? i couldn't tell you how many times i've heard a cop refer to a black person as a nigger...even my half-brother, who's a municipal thug (i mean, riot control cop) in new york city, is chock-full of racist statements and blind hatred for: protestors, arabs, niggers, etc..
this is not a statistical proof (which i know seems to be the only thing that matters), but you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Well, it depends on what you mean by "a lot". Finding them when you go looking for them isn't anything in the way of evidence, either, since there's a pretty decent selection bias involved in deciding to go looking for them.
you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
No, but you do need to know if the person discussing the wind has it confused with a cough and just doesn't know the difference.
Particularly when the charge is that "lots of white cops" are not only racist, but members of the KKK. That should, in fact, be easy to establish.
However... in our quickness to take out this cop (who was probably out of line)... we'd better be careful about hamstringing other cops. While martial arts training is great and all, and supposively helps the student maintain control... not all situations are always under control.
I actually agree that being a police officer is not as tough a job as many make it out to be.
This article, though Toronto-specific, is quite illuminating in that regard. An illustrative snippet:
On average, a police officer in Toronto arrests nine people a year -- about one person every six weeks. Most people assume that most officers are involved in work of significant danger, struggling to subdue and arrest criminals on a daily basis. It's not true.
I am sure statistics are similar in many major U.S. cities. Not that I think it is a breeze to be a cop. I am sure most encounter serious danger at some point in their career, and most are required to deal with a hefty number of irrational assholes. Still, I have little sympathy when I hear police and their representatives moan about being imperiled on a daily basis, and cite incessant, daily, struggles with violent criminals as good reason for police frustration and a rationale for police officers that occasionally get out of hand.
OTOH, I am also sympathetic to the view that remaining calm when attempting to subdue an aggressive individual is easier said than done. I have three times witnessed cops subdue aggressive, and apparently dangerous individuals, and each time was impressed at the restraint shown by the cops in action.
you knit, the KKK doesn't generally give out information on who it's members are. I only have first hand account. perhaps you could go undercover, become a leader in the movement, gain access to and review the membership logs of the KKK (if such things exist) and then compile it so that we may all have scientific evidence of a commonly known fact. (As I said, this problem may be entirely localized in Philadelphia, I don't know.)
Actually, you didn't say, the first time through.
But anyway, you could provide a number of cites as far as reports, articles, analyses done on urban cops. Thus far you've only offered pulleditoutofmyass.com.
I agree with TJ's 23600.
Second... once someone is cuffed it seems they ought to be put in the car immediately. I haven't seen the tape, so I don't have any real feel for how much force this officer used... but the sooner you get someone who's resisting in the car the better... gives the cop and the arrestee both time to cool off.
I don't know what the 9 arrests a year average comes from. There are lots of desk cops... and other police that don't work the street so much... so is that average over a whole department, or for officers who actually work the beat?
The randomness of a violent confrontation isn't something to be triffled with. I don't care how much martial arts training you might have... martial arts training isn't a guarantee of anything.
I have met really wonderful cops in my day, and i've also met some real assholes. it's like any other job except they have guns and are held less responsible for their actions in using said guns.
that's the part that bothers me.
"The kid lunged at the cop, yes?"
Oh please! He was young, he was black therefore he HAD to have "lunged." Why? Well that's what the cops said, right?
while that is true, it has little drawbacks (other than cost of training) and could lead to more important benefits.
let's put it in money terms: this kid is going to sue for half a million. other victims of police brutality have sued for much more (some incidents have caused riots...like in L.A...costing taxpayers MILLIONS!). if even ONE incident is avoided by having martial arts training, it may have saved the city MILLIONS as well...easily deflecting the costs for training.
there are other benefits: improves the health of police officers (both physically and psychologically) and it could diffuse some aggression in situations that may be best solved by a cool head.
it's not easy to remain cool in such dangerous situations, to be sure...but it's worth a try.
The stat is over the whole police force of Toronto.
Here is another snippet:
The number of people the police arrested for criminal offences in 2000 was 47,771. There were 5,372 uniformed officers on the force. That's the math that produces nine arrests per officer per year. For every cop who arrests one person a week for the year, there are four who don't arrest anyone.
The author's numbers aren't entirely rock solid and don't equal hard science, but the picture he paints is a fair assessment. (Incidentally, the author was once Mayor of Toronto in the 1970s).
No, I agree that it might just be the cop's word.
I'm not saying there's no point to train people... but don't think that just because we might implement something like this that people aren't going to get their heads cracked once in a while (and I'm not refering to this specific event... from what I've heard this particular officer was out of line).
As evidence that training doesn't guarantee anything in particular. I did some competative shooting for a while (IDPA)... which is supposed to mimic self defense scenarios. In my third contest while I was still a beginner I beat a cop and a marine...
Training helps (anger management, martial arts, marksmanship) but there's the issue of innate ability. It even translates to school... people with tons of schooling may be no more adept at their vocation than an amateur... although it does help.
Apparently the NCWO has decided they need to admit women as members otherwise they will create some noise around the Masters next year. Hootie Johnson, President of Augusta CC wrote a scathing letter to Burk (spearheading the campaign at NCWO) refusing to deal with her or her "threats."
This is such a stupid thing for NCWO to take on, and I can't believe it will do one damn thing for women to be seen in this light. Jaysus, sometimes I have to wonder where these women get their brains from these days.
Penal Code
147. Every officer who is guilty of willful inhumanity or oppression toward any prisoner under his care or in his custody, is
punishable by fine not exceeding four thousand dollars ($4,000), andby removal from office.
149. Every public officer who, under color of authority, without lawful necessity, assaults or beats any person, is punishable by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by imprisonment in the state prison, or in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
But don't let me stop you...that macho schtick of yours is oh sooooo Latino sexy!
You guapo hombre you.......keep my member up.
Anyway, that (add an expletive) officer had no right to abuse that child!
This Friday's 20/20 is about us...fooling YOU. I host 20/20 this week--both Barbara and John Miller have a night off--and I'll use the hour to look at the how we (the media) may mislead you.
Sometimes the media distort pictures. I'll show you how. The Communists killed Trotsky and then removed him from Soviet photographs. Now computers make it easier. Remember when some people booed Hillary Clinton at a fund-raising concert after September 11th? MTV replayed the concert, but changed the boos to applause. TV Guide put Oprah Winfrey on its cover, but gave her Ann-Margret's body. Steven Spielberg took guns out of the remake of ET.
Of course, that's just entertainment. It's worse if NEWS organizations distort. I'll tell you what ABC News has done. And what I did. Even when we don't distort, we can still mislead by hyping tiny risks.
You heard about "road rage," but did you know there's no evidence of road rage increasing? The media reports were mostly based on--get this: a study of MEDIA REPORTS of road rage. It was circular logic.
And the reason for all those shark attack! reports last year was NOT an increase in the number of attacks, it was just hype! We'll show you how, and why.
And what aren't those glossy magazines telling you about those cars they love? Some important news. Maybe it was because the media are "on the take." Ok, not really "on the take," but we get influenced by people being nice to us, or giving us things, or advertising with us. We'll tell you about the cozy relationship between car magazines and car makers.
Well...the Marshall Plan ain't and that nation building thing just sounded gud in Plano..
The key to this sophisticated strategy...count on a critical mass of half wits like POJ...
GENEVA (Reuters) - Afghanistan ( news - web sites) could slide back under the control of warlords if it fails to receive the aid it urgently needs, a top U.N. official said on Thursday.
Kenzo Oshima, U.N. under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs, said $777 million was needed to the end of this year to pay for food and shelter for returning refugees as well as items such as police and army salaries.
SUMMARY: A transgender woman was told by an Irish court on Tuesday that she was born a male and will always be a male in the eyes of the law.
A transgender woman was told by an Irish court on Tuesday that she was born a male and will always be a male in the eyes of the law.
Lydia Foy, 55, had gone to court to have her gender changed from male to female on her birth certificate. She reportedly received gender reassignment surgery in 1992.
Justice Liam McKechnie said that, based on "the medical and scientific evidence," Foy was a male at birth and her birth certificate could not legally be changed to female.
Foy, a father of two, told the court she had spent over 40 years of her life trapped in the body of a man.
when i went to the bureau of birth and death records, i was told (with a few giggles) that i'd need to provide proof i was a man..."i mean, MEDICAL, proof" the blushing clerk lady said.
there are two versions of how this ends...pick the one you like:
1) i unzipped and slapped my member onto her desk with a loud and flat "thud" and said, "does THIS prove it?"
2) i got my immunization records and that was that.
The priest featured among the 7 or 8 who are appealing under canon law is of course a colored man...and we all know about the morals of coloreds now don'twe Cllr.
And he probably will be.
Stay tuned.
I've said it before, if I were a black man getting pulled over and I had a gun, I'd shoot first and ask questions later. this is obscene. I am sick of this fucking shit!
It happens every fucking day and people just fucking ignore it...it ain't real unless they can see it on their TV and white racist apologist go asking "Where's the imperical proof that lots of cops are in the KKK?" They use black men for target practice and as punching bags. How much more proof do you fucking need? Get out of your goddamn suburbs and take a look around. it won't take long to see. Fucking knit wit dip shit psuedo scientists. "It's true like tinkerbell"...ya, that's real cute but how many of your friends and friends of friends have been murdered by cops. Fucking sheltered, tiny little life inside your cold hard shell. Let's not be bothered with reality though...if it can't be expressed in a neat little mathematical expression then it isn't real.
I gotta get the fuck off this planet. you people scare me.
There must be statistics about this somewhere. I would like to see how widespread the problem really is.
Let's not be bothered with reality though...if it can't be expressed in a neat little mathematical expression then it isn't real.
That's the problem. If it is real, it can be expressed statistically. I saw the tape of the cop slamming that kid into the car, and I want to see that cop fry as much as the next person. I know about some of the other cases as well. I just don't want to indict the hundreds of thousands of cops based on the actions of what might only be a few.
It certainly bears investigating, but let's not make conclusions until we have all the facts.
I'd rather not discuss the topic, I'm too angry right now...I have had friends "roughed up" by cops and a good friend of mine's brother was murdered by cops. if you read my posts up thread you will find that I don't paint all cops with one brush...but right now I'm angry and annoyed.
you can refer up thread for my discussion about why it's impossible to get accurate statistics on KKK/cop membership.
But weez all knows that dis brudda done bin horny young buck in de sebendees
On the same night last week, in the same quiet, extremely rural township just a few miles from here, where the biggest news since I moved here 14 years ago has been a tornado that touched down in a field, knocking down a barn and silo, two very strange incidents occurred.
First, at 12:30am a woman drinking at a bar (the only commercial establishment besides the farm co-op in this 120sq mile area) had her car keys taken away by her friends, who deemed her too drunk to drive home. She refused to let anyone drive her, and instead left on foot for the 2 mile trek home.
...only to be run over and killed on her own street.
Meanwhile, a few miles away in another part of the township, there was a July 4th weekend pig roast at someone's farm, with over 100 people in attendance. A 55-y.o. man, also deemed by his friends too drunk to drive home, pulled out a .22 handgun and shot his friend when he refused to give him his keys - it only grazed the guy's forehead though. And luckily it was the guy's last bullet, as he had been shooting at cans earlier.
But he was very pissed, and threatened to return and kill everyone. No one took him seriously when he, too, took off down the road on foot. No one called the cops.
But being an older guy (who happened to live 30 miles away), he decided he'd better get some transportation. So he hot-wired a neighbor's pick-up, drove home, got his shotgun, went back to the party, and blew another friend away.
Bookkeeping concerns weighed on Duke Energy, which plunged $3.68 to $21.07 after being downgraded by Morgan Stanley, Salomon Smith Barney and Goldman Sachs. On Thursday, Duke said it had received subpoenas from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission and the Houston office of the U.S. attorney for information related to its trading activities 
I understand there are still 14 or 15 people out there who are not on the Internet. Boy, are you missing out! Just this morning I had an experience that reminded me why the Internet is the most important technological advance for humanity since humanity figured out how to put cheese into an aerosol can.
Disturbed by the prospect of Sesame Street introducing an HIV-positive Muppet on its South African version as part of an AIDS education effort, a group of conservative lawmakers is making like Oscar the Grouch and has sent a letter to PBS expressing concern over the appropriateness of such a character and subject matter on public television.
my, what pressing issues of the day...
...
Five Republican members of the powerful House Commerce Committee, led by chairman W.J. "Billy" Tauzin of Louisiana, also reminded PBS president Pat Mitchell that Congress has the last word on funding for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, PBS' backer.
The new HIV-infected female Muppet is set to debut September 30 on Takalani Sesame with the goal of helping combat the spread of HIV and AIDS by educating youngsters on the epidemic and repudiating widely held cultural stereotypes about the virus and those infected. More than 10 percent of the South African population is infected with HIV.
While the HIV-positive Muppet might later be introduced in other countries where a sizable percentage of the population is battling AIDS, PBS said last week that there were no immediate plans for a similar character to join Big Bird, Bert and Ernie, Elmo and the rest of the gang Stateside.
Still, that's not stopping conservatives from taking swipes at the award-winning children's series. The American Family Association says the character is a means for homosexual activists to influence young viewers. And the Tauzin-led congressional letter-writers--which also included Represtentatives Joe Barton (R-Texas), Cliff Stearns (R-Florida), Fred Upton (R-Michigan), Charles Pickering (R-Mississippi) and Richard Burr (R-North Carolina)--are taking PBS' Mitchell to task.
What the hell does PBS or CPB have to do with what another non-profit (that provides programming to PBS/CPB) does in South Africa? And what moral universe do they live in that they would react this way about a muppet?
Pat Buchanan on MSNBC 
Samantha Runnion, the 5-yr-old snatched in CA...
.........Resembles 5-Year-Old Calif. Girl Snatched From Yard...........
July 16 Investigators are trying to confirm whether the body of a child found this afternoon in California is that of a 5-year-old Orange County girl who police say was snatched Monday by a man as she was playing with a friend outside her home.
It's odd that there seem to be so many children being kidnapped and killed recently. Either the events have become more newsworthy or there's some mass psychosis spreading around. Copy cats and sick minds seem to be the darlings of the media so maybe they just feed on each other.
No, the problem is that there shouldn't have been some sick fuck who wanted to murder her. I myself wouldn't let Spawn out in the front yard at age 5, but it's not all that far out there in terms of behavior.
I didn't catch that incredibly stupid comment. Not allowed in the front yard? What's next, not allowed in the house, at night, with the doors locked? What an idea, that we can't even let our children out in broad daylight, in the front of our house.
I can't imagine being a child now, without any sense of freedom to explore and walkabout with friends in the neighborhood. I guess it's a miracle that more kids of my generation were not snatched and murdered, we were all so reckless.
I think families used to hide these people on their farms, or in the attics of their homes, but now these depraved individuals tend to live in highly populated areas and without any family supervision. I also think modern communications (TV) feeds these individuals ideas and plausable ways to carry them out.
I have grown rather fond of the Texas way over my years here. Very hard to actually get an insanity defense, and we execute in large numbers.
It was on the O'Reilly report--and no, I don't watch it often. To be fair to O'Reilly, he wasn't looking to blame the mom. But the child expert he had on was unequivocal--no,no,no, you never leave a five year old alone in the front yard. Her advice was that your kid ought not to be unsupervised until--I'm not making this up--12 years old.
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The body of a 5-year-old girl snatched from outside her southern California home on Monday has been found dumped by a remote forest road, investigators said on Wednesday.
The body, found less than 24 hours after the kidnapping, was identified as that of Samantha Runnion, who was dragged kicking and screaming into a car in front of her Stanton home by a man who said he was looking for a lost puppy.
PONTIAC, Mich. -- A woman accused of leaving her two children to die inside a sweltering car expressed her intent on Wednesday to plead guilty to two counts of involuntary manslaughter.
But Oakland County Circuit Judge Wendy Potts issued a stay, saying she would move forward on the case Aug. 21.
The delay allows prosecutors to appeal another judge's decision last week to reduce the charges from first-degree murder against Tarajee Maynor, Potts said
Authorities say Maynor left 10-month-old Acacia Maynor and 3-year-old Adonnis Maynor alone in her compact car for more than three hours on June 28 while she was having her hair done. The children died of hyperthermia.
LONDON (Reuters) - A British bank said on Tuesday it had apologized to a man after sending a letter to his dead wife that began "Dear Mrs. Deceased."
A spokesman for Egg, a bank which operates on the Internet, said one of its employees had mistakenly entered "Deceased" on a form letter in place of the woman's name.
SAANICH, British Columbia (AP) - If someone steals your stash, you might think twice before calling the cops. Police in a suburb of Victoria, British Columbia, arrested a man who wanted to report a marijuana theft.
It seems a thief swiped his home-grown pot. But the crook left some behind.
So, when officers arrived at the man's house, they found enough to make an arrest. Royal Canadian Mounted Police Constable Peter Lane says it's surprising what some people will report to police.
BERLIN (Reuters) - German police investigating reports of screams coming from an apartment said Wednesday they had found a 76-year-old woman practicing for a yodeling diploma.
Neighbors called police after hearing noises coming from the flat in the western town of Offenbach near Frankfurt .
"The officers weren't able to judge whether the neighbors were unfamiliar with Bavarian folk music or whether the lady still requires a lot of practice," police said in a statement.
SPLENDORA --(Houston Chronicle)-- A 52-year-old woman who raised pit bull terriers was killed after being mauled by four of them she had raised from puppies, the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office ruled Wednesday.
Bernard Lee Carter returned from work about 7 p.m. Tuesday to find the dogs standing over Dorothy Carter, his wife of six years. She was face down in an enclosed back porch, Splendora police Sgt. Mark Seals said.
Yuck.
Seems like we might want to consider quick and furious "putting down" of serial child killers too!
Morse said in a police report that Jackson was arrested after he struggled with officers, scratched Morse above his ear and grabbed the officers testicles after being handcuffed. Morse was in extreme pain and punched Jackson to make him let go, according to the report.
I guess handcuffs doesn't make someone entirely defenseless.
As a newly deputized member of Trashcroft's Citizen's Possee it might become my duty to arrest your for interference with negro control
Why was Lindh allowed access to an attorney, while fellow citizen Jose Padilla is not? Because Lindh is not a terrorist bent on passing messages back to al-Qaida. Why was Lindh's lawyer granted judicial permission to submit written questions to al-Qaida members currently detained in Guantanamo? Because Lindh never had any interest in encouraging or planning terror attacks against America. Why is the government even contemplating sending Lindh to a medium-security prison in California, where he'll be allowed to mingle with other prisoners, visit with his family, and write his book (all proceeds to go directly to the U.S. government)? Because no one believes he'll be spending the next 20 years tapping out messages to Osama Bin Laden from the pipe under his sink.
And why did Lindh ultimately strike a deal with prosecutors, even though his defense team knew there were serious doubts about the strength of the government case? Because Lindh, while inclining toward the grandiose/delusional, is nevertheless a rational actor, with a rational actor's natural self-interest in the shortest jail term for which he can bargain.
scapegoat
NOUN: 1. One that is made to bear the blame of others.
2. Bible A live goat over whose head Aaron confessed all the sins of the children of Israel on the Day of Atonement. The goat, symbolically bearing their sins, was then sent into the wilderness.
I heard on NPR that some departments want to replace their crown vics completely. Either they've backed off that position or it isn't reported here. This article has it right... retro-fit with race car bladder tanks which reduce the risks of fire.
Again... this isn't a risk free endeavor. If they really want to make cars safe at 100 mph in every crash then they're gonna have to pay for that... as well as make police officers wear the nomex suits just like racers do.
A jury found that he deliberately injected heroin into 15 elderly women - many in good health - during routine checkups in their homes or at his office, falsifying computer records to create fictitious symptoms to explain their deaths.
A government-commissioned report found last year that Shipman had 297 more deaths among his patients than would be expected during a normal 24-year medical career.
Research Shows Alaskan Ice Mass Vanishing at Twice Rate Previously Estimated
Alaska's glaciers are melting at more than twice the rate previously thought because of warming temperatures, dramatically altering the majestic contours of the state and driving up sea levels, according to a new study.
Scientists using highly precise airborne laser measurements of 67 Alaskan glaciers from the mid-1950s to the mid-1990s discovered that the glaciers are melting an average of six feet a year -- and in some cases a few hundred feet -- and that the rate has accelerated in the past seven or eight years.
If they had 67 glaciers... melting at an average of 6 ft per year with some (let's say only 2 outliers were present because of the use of the phrase 'some cases') melting more than 100 feet (but we'll just say 150 instead of 'couple hundred'... 150 is generous by the way because if I jack it up to 200 everything because small.)
If they don't throw out the outliers all of the other glaciers would have to be receeding at only about 1.5 ft a year. That's just with 2 outlyers.
If we assume there are some other intermediate glaciers receeding around 50 ft per year (say another 2 glaciers). Then all of the others would be receeding at less than 0.1 ft per year.
In other words there seems to be a small number of glaciers that is greatly affecting their 'averages'. Of course I'd need to read the actual article in Science instead of the Washington Post... which I'm sure fucked up the interpretations somewhere because journalists just aren't very bright sometimes.
Bothersome.
Thing is, it was processed in May and "Much of the recalled beef may already have been eaten"
Thank you very much.
STANTON, Calif. -- Authorities arrested a 27-year-old man Friday as part of their investigation into the kidnapping and slaying of 5-year-old Samantha Runnion.
Orange County Sheriff Michael Carona said Alejandro Avila was arrested after search warrants were served at an apartment complex not far from where the girl's body was found Tuesday.
Carona said the arrest "in no way concludes this investigation." He took no questions from reporters and said more details would be released at an evening news conference.
No one got sick - we always cook 'em well.
If they prove in a court of law he did it, I hope they fry this bastard.
Does an anime artist write his lines? He sounds like Mojo Jojo.
Now he is a Franciscan monk.
STANTON, Calif. --(AP)-- DNA evidence found on the body of 5-year-old Samantha Runnion matches the man arrested in her killing, the Los Angeles Times reported Saturday.
Alejandro Avila of Lake Elsinore was arrested Friday following a tip.
The Times cited police sources it did not identify in reporting the DNA evidence Saturday.
Jim Amormino, a spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff's Department, would not specifically confirm or deny the report Saturday, but did say authorities have evidence linking Avila to the crime.
"We are 100 percent sure we have the right man based on circumstantial, physical and forensic evidence," Amormino said. "Forensic testing has confirmed our initial suspicion. DNA is a component of forensic testing."
For David Kucharski, that same realization came as a pleasant surprise. Walking back from a movie after his first week of classes, he asked some fellow students how they thought gay people were treated in their parishes. At least a couple seemed sympathetic. "I knew I would need a friend for later," he said.
They were two young seminarians from the diocese of Dubuque, Iowa -- one straight and one gay. They arrived in Washington one year apart, and both would have been Roman Catholic priests by now, classes of 2001 and 2002, respectively, at the elite national seminary affiliated with Catholic University. But both left when what they noticed those early weeks came to dominate their seminary experience in a way they found unnerving -- something "known by everyone but never really acknowledged," said Kucharski."
Aaah the Law School Alma Mater Porked!
For Krzmarzick, the incident began to taint his view of the place. "If you could address this thing, openly gay men might mature, develop normally," he said. "But instead it gets dysfunctional." He began to view his classmates as "people who'd come there not out of some noble calling, but who'd come there to hide."
Krzmarzick said his friends dealt with the strangeness in different ways.
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink," said the Rev. John McDonough, an informal class leader who is now a priest in Arizona. "Some people just don't want to deal with it."
But another friend sounded increasingly bitter. "If you're hetero, it's a different card you were played," he would say. "But if you come out, you're golden, the whole system helps you." Eventually, he dropped out.
Krzmarzick made his decision that summer away from his friends. He'd gone out to San Diego to take a clinical pastoral education class, a kind of group therapy in which aspiring priests minister at a hospital and then write "verbatims" hyper-analyzing what they felt during those interactions. The leader was a Unitarian Universalist minister who was openly gay.
To Krzmarzick, the minister seemed so much more "healthy" than the "atmosphere of suffocating sexual repression" he had just lived through in Washington.
"Here's the problem," he thought to himself. "You need to create a space where people can be who they are. Being gay is not the problem, but when it's all underground it's no good."
The only bearable thing about that little girl's kidnapping is that everything was done right--from the beginning to the arrest, the cops and the community really seemed to be on top of things.
Plagued by the rapid erosion of its profits and an accounting scandal that created billions in illusory earnings,WorldCom last night submitted the largest bankruptcy filing in United States history.
The bankruptcy is expected to shake an already wobbling telecommunications industry, but is unlikely to have an immediate impact on customers, including the 20 million users of its MCI long-distance service.
SANTA ANA, Calif. (AP) - The man arrested in the slaying of 5-year-old Samantha Runnion was charged Monday with murder and other counts that could bring the death penalty.
The charges against Alejandro Avila came a nearly week after Samantha was abducted kicking and screaming outside her apartment while playing with a friend. The girl's nude body was found a day later; investigators said she had been sexually assaulted and strangled.
Avila, 27, was charged with murder, kidnapping and two counts of forcible lewd acts on a child.
The district attorney could seek the death penalty under special circumstances included with the charges.
WASHINGTON, DCMere days from assuming the presidency and closing the door on eight years of Bill Clinton, president-elect George W. Bush assured the nation in a televised address Tuesday that "our long national nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally over."
"My fellow Americans," Bush said, "at long last, we have reached the end of the dark period in American history that will come to be known as the Clinton Era, eight long years characterized by unprecedented economic expansion, a sharp decrease in crime, and sustained peace overseas. The time has come to put all of that behind us."
Last Friday, at work, I overheard part of an interesting conversation between a fairly typical (I imagine moderate Left) American and an immigrant scientist (probably Russian). The Russian held GWB's policies and initiatives in much more regard than the American who repeatedly brought up GWB's purported 'intellect deficit' talking point, as if such a red herring was a substitute for analyzing the policies on their own merits.
The Chosen was one of the most impactful books I read as a teenager, I remember exactly where and when I read the first few pages (in the public library in Forest Hills) in the first week of summer vacation in 1983. It opened up a new world of writers and writing to me. After tearing through every other book he'd written in a few days, I moved on to Malamud and then Bellow and Roth in something resembling a real and obsessive frenzy of interest. I went on my own (to the bemusement of my parents and everyone else) to neighborhoods like Williamsburg (where I got a dollar bill from the late Menachem Schneerson) and ate my first (several) dill pickles and pastrami sandwiches, and forced my parents to take me to the Jewish Museum and eventually all the way to Israel.
Yes, RIP, Chaim Potok, a highly underrated writer who produced a couple of simply beautiful books. 
Erica, 7. Wonder how this kidnapped kid story will play...
PHILADELPHIA, July 23 A 7-year-old girl who was abducted kicking and screaming on Monday a few feet from her home escaped from her captors tonight, less than 24 hours after kidnappers had demanded a $150,000 ransom.
The Philadelphia police outlined a remarkable sequence of events surrounding the escape of girl, Erica Pratt, who had been seized while she played outside her Southwest Philadelphia home.
From Today's Yahoo Science News:
Massive Asteroid Headed Straight for Us!
LONDON (Reuters) - A massive asteroid could hit Earth in just 17 years' time, destroying life as we know it, a British space expert said Wednesday.
The asteroid -- the most threatening object ever detected in space -- is 1.2 miles wide and apparently on a direct collision course with Earth.
This is for real. As of today, you apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic writers have got yourselves a real asteroid. You've also got a real date. Human civilization might come to an end in 2019, and they say if this really is headed our way we can't do a doggone thing about it.
To help you get started, here are Doc's dos and don'ts for next 17 years:
Do max out your credit cards.
Don't take out a life insurance policy.
Do finish that book you've been writing.
Don't invest in those 18-year Savings Bonds.
The girl chewed through duct tape! Aww yeah!
Bob and Mose were driving through this little town one day and saw two little girls--about three and two years old--walking down the highway, which is the main street of the town. There was not an adult in sight, and Bob stopped and asked the little girls where they were trying to go and they just piled into the backseat of the car, unasked, giving no info on their names, parents--nothing.
Bob and Mose didn't know what to do, so they drove up the road until they saw a man on a riding mower and stopped to ask him if they knew who the little girls were. While they were out of the car talking to the man they heard a sudden blaring of the car radio, turned up full blast, then VAROOOOM!! The engine started. Bob and Mose zoomed back to the car to find the older one in the drivers' seat, ready to roll. They got the kids out and the man said he didn't recognize them, so Bob and Mose went house to house where they'd found them until they got to my former student's house, and they were his kids. He said he'd been in the shower and they'd wandered out of the house.
That was several years ago, and they're still alive and well, amazingly.
HATFIELD, Pa. July 24 A candy factory worker died after being submerged in a 1,200-gallon vat of liquefied chocolate, police said.
Yoni Cordon, 19, of Philadelphia, was discovered in the vat by co-workers at the Kargher Corporation on Tuesday, authorities said.
Police said they believe Cordon had been working on a platform near the opening of the vat, which is used for mixing and melting chocolate.
Nobody saw Cordon fall and it was unknown how long he was submerged before he was found, Hatfield Township police detective Patrick M. Hanrahan said.
Hanrahan said foul play was not suspected and the death was being investigated as an accident.
A local guy - 23 or 24 -was found last week naked, bound with duct tape, beaten nearly to death and left for dead on a back swamp road in Kentucky.
The two kidnappers are still on the lam.
They happen to be his wife and step-dad, who police have discovered were having an affair.
Nice, huh?
BTW, this evening we went by the house of the two kids I posted about earlier on our way to see Bob's parents, and there's a third now who looks about two, but mama was in the yard with all three.
Off to visit Mexican wolves in Missouri and cranes in Wisconsin. Also sweetcorn, bratwurst, and brandy manhattans.
We've now reached the point where white cultural consciousness will not even allow scientific examination of a 10,000 plus year old skeleton because some indigenous Native Americans from a tribe in existence for no more than a few hundred years spews malarkey that one of their supposed ancestors is thereby being desecrated, but a soi-disant 'oppressed' minority member feels perfectly free and easy about taking hundreds of peoples' cremation money and then throwing their loved ancestors' remains out in the woods to be chewed on by raccoons and skunks.
Robert,
Hope you're enjoying your roadtrip.
This I totally agree with.
Post 23727
'Aberrant behavior is by definition not determined by "culturally related beliefs and values."'
Now, what the friggin' hell is going on at Fort Bragg?!! Four wives dead! Two murder suicides and two murders by their husbands. Also an officer murdered in his sleep?! What the hell?!
Stress syndrom?! What?! Did all four wives cheat and the husbands go berserk? God?! Stupid f'in' idiots.
Why are emotions so strung out(somewhat an obvious answer)? Are there no reality checks for returning soldiers? Obviously there needs to be.
What the hell is going on at Bragg?!
"Using government money to distribute Bibles, stage prayer rallies outside clinics that provide abortions and perform skits with characters that preach Christianity violate the Constitution's separation of church and state."
Three Cheers for U.S. District Judge G. Thomas Porteous, Jr.
I heard today that the Slidell police are reporting someone in a truck matching the one police are looking for in our serial killings pulled someone over, pretending to be a cop, and raped her. And I've also heard that they're looking at similar cases to ours in Alexandria.
In other local news, we've had our first official death from West Nile. 32 cases so far last I heard. About half in BR and the others scattered around this area of the state. Hammond has a few.
As was pointed out, the kidnapper considered his options before tying the boys up. If he had killed the two young men, he would have gained a tremendous amount of time. As it was, they were on his trail immediately. Obviously, he considered both options and was willing to add considerable risk to be certain of escaping the death penalty when and if caught. It is a fact that he evidently did not kill any prior rape victims. The conclusion by authorities that he was about to kill these two rape victims is not that obvious. It is just as likely that the officers opened fire on sight in an effort to avoid a hostage situation.
This is not to suggest that I have one iota of criticism of the officers' conduct. I would not ask or expect the police to assume one bit of unecessay risk in dealing with this sub-human.
West Nile
I'm amazed we don't have the virus here yet, because it's been a very wet year. Maybe we have and I just haven't heard. I haven't seen the local news in ages.
SEATTLE -- Here in Latte Land, there's an Election Day battle brewing over a proposed 10-cent tax on espresso drinks. The money would help finance child care.
About 675 miles south, in the counterculture capital of Berkeley, Calif., voters will decide whether to ban the sale of brewed coffee that isn't what skeptics call politically correct.
Jersey Man's Suicide Jump Injures Motorist
ELIZABETH, N.J. August 7, 2002 A city housing inspector who jumped to his death from the roof of a 13-story apartment building injured a woman when he crashed through the windshield of her parked car, police said.
Mel Pelaez of Elizabeth fell onto a car occupied by a 20-year-old woman, who suffered cuts to her face and eye from broken glass, Detective Lt. Gary Lewis said.
[...]
"I think we can assume he picked this building because it is tall," Lewis told the Home News Tribune of East Brunswick.
Gee, d'ya think?
High | Low 
I posted on this primary race last week - the State Senator from this district, Leon Stille, soon to be out of a job because of term limits, challenged VanderVeen in what is to be her second term as a Statehouse Rep. He was heavily favored - until he got caught dumping his trash in a school dumpster.
VanderVeen didn't make much of it - but the Great Lakes Education Project - headed by Republican bigwig Betsy DeVos (Dick's wife) certainly did. DeVos has pulled back all financial support for, and sworn a vendetta against any Republican who opposed school vouchers, and Stille was one of them.
But the GLEP may be in some trouble: the flyer they circulated slamming Stille for the Great Garbage Can Fiasco used an image of Oscar the Grouch (the monster in the garbage can from Sesame Street) to make their point.
Seems the producers of the show are very upset, and hinting that they may sue.
Sorry.
now you know that even people with Alzheimer's have a right to arm bears.
(seriously, the lady up the street from my mom lost her shit when her son came back from Vietnam and died in a motorcycle accident the next week. She was always mean and crabby but a couple years ago she began patrolling the neighborhood with a gun. Now this nut case got the gun, loaded with bullets and was terrorizing the neighborhood--people were genuinely afraid to go out of their houses at night--and I'm supposed to believe it's too hard to get a gun.)
arky
I have absolutely no idea what you mean. Your message is just too cryptic for one as simple as I.
Wombat
So you think (wait, let me rephrase that. No need to give undue credit). It is your opinion that Heston is hateful and mean-spirited.
Can you give me some examples of what you opine? To be fair I will give you two examples of what I saw as mean-spirited and hateful from teachers. In a discussion about a somewhat troublesome student, one teacher made the comment that mayby we teachers would get lucky and the boy would commit suicide during the summer. A Social Studies teacher presented an Educationly Handicaped student, close to graduation, with a mock diploma, telling him that was as close as he would ever get to one. It was done in class, which gave many in the class a big laugh. Disgusting comments about students, especially those not popular, were the norm.
I very rarely go through anything unpleasant in my job and I do not talk like that about students, so why you would even bring such stories up if not to imply otherwise is something you'd need to explain.
Regarding a public figure who promotes the proliferation of gun ownership in a nation with a serious gun problem, however (in which real people get hurt and die), I don't waste much guilt about one off-the-wall statement concerning his condition before he diagnosed himself. In fact, I'm glad you're able to get so much sanctimonious mileage out of it.
If it helps your own self-esteem any to try to slam not only me but teachers in general because of my passing remark on a man for whom I have no personal respect, then have at it. No man stands so tall in his own mind as when he sits in judgment of others.
No, just old geezers who think they can get hostile without having it reciprocated. Am I speaking of you or Heston? I'll let you decide. As far as students, yes, I can, but not with personal remarks or attacks. We're adults here, this is an informal discussion forum, and I'm not in a position of authority over you or Charlton Heston, so I made a snide remark when it suited me.
FWIW, I have no objection to guns, nor to the NRA as an organization. I do, however, to their tactics and those of Heston. Maybe you'd best read up on them. You seem a bit underinformed.
I base my statement on his self-diagnosis from Ronski's post '55, btw.
You're a nice person, and I said many times on the Education Thread I felt you were an excellent, caring teacher. Yes, I'm old, arky. I just haven't figured how to prevent that, without the obvious.
I could be snide, a bit CalGalish, and say perhaps you should read more carefully Ronski's Post before blaming him for what you say. If I said I need a heart operation, would you conclude it was a self diagnosis. Your viseral hatred of conservatives does not allow you to see clearly
All Ronski said was that Heston said he had symptoms of Alzheimers. He didn't provide a link or anything else saying how it was diagnosed, and I read it as Heston's own announcement, not that it's that important. I don't care if you suggest it's not a careful reading. I don't care if you don't like my remark. I don't care if you are snide. Your snotty remark about teachers in general, however, I found more offensive than mine about Heston having symptoms of Alzheimers before his diagnosis (however it was made). I still wouldn't sail in from elsewhere and attempt to reprimand you for saying it, though, if it weren't directed at me.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/792097.asp?0cm=c30&cp1=1
"ASSOCIATED PRESS
Aug. 9 Charlton Heston, Oscar-winning actor, six-time president of the Screen Actors Guild and president of the National Rifle Association, announced Friday that he may have Alzheimers disease. Heston recorded the announcement Aug. 7. Im neither giving up nor giving in, the 78-year-old Heston said in the statement, played at a news conference at the Beverly Hills Hotel."
I'm going out on my porch now, but I had to drop a last post and let you know I'm not upset and I hope you're not. I never take stuff in here personally without just responding and moving on to something else. Otherwise I'd have left this old haunt long ago.
Have a good evening!
PS--I'm probably older than you are in a lot of ways. My 71 year old dad can outdo me in just about everything. And he loves to remind me of that fact at every opportunity.
Is sitting out on the poarch a sourthern thing? Beware the person who says, "Now don't take this personally." I'm not a bit upset with you at all. I just sometimes can't resist being offensive, and of course I knew exactly what you meant. I love the fact that as individuals you can admire conservatives. Many people can love people in the abstract, but not on a one to one level.
Still waiting to hear from the Wombat.
The only people I don't like for their politics (or any other views, for that matter) are those who either can't see any perspective but their own, so automatically dislike me, or those whose views obviously come from a position of pure self-interest, especially when they try to veil their views in practical terms but their motives are so transparent.
That's why I can be a "Big L" Liberal and get along with pretty much every conservative here, which is not to say I don't jab them and get jabbed, even personally, but that it's all just part of the Mote Political Package.
2:00 a.m. July 30, 2001 PDT
MIT's Media Lab is experimenting with a tool for indexing the most popular hypertext links across thousands of weblogs and has ambitious plans to turn it into a resource for the mass media.
Launched last week, Blogdex is like a search-engine spider that visits about 9,000 weblogs a day looking for hypertext links. It extracts the links and ranks them by popularity. The top 10 are published daily on the Blogdex site.
"I think people need tools to help them think about the kind of information they are creating," said Blogdex's creator, Cameron Marlow, a 24-year-old PhD student at The Media Lab.
By ranking the most popular links, Blogdex provides an insight into what's hot in the world of weblogs.
At the moment, weblogs are the hottest publishing phenomenon on the Internet.
A weblog is a log of someone's travels on the Web -- a regularly updated list of items of interest, often accompanied by a running commentary.
Weblogs are timely, and because they are updated more often than search engines, they are often the best way to find new, important and interesting content on the Web.
Haven't seen Danny Sickles round these parts lately have we?
Missing L.A. Girl Found in Good Health
LOS ANGELES Four-year-old
Jessica Cortez was found safe at a
medical clinic Tuesday, after
disappearing from a park over the
weekend. The woman who brought
her into the clinic was taken into
custody.
Anyone seen Sickleto lately?
It's cold and it's damp
And all the people dressed like monkeys
Let's leave Chicago to the Eskimos
That town's a little too rugged
For you and me, you bad girl
Rollin' down the Imperial Highway
With a big nasty redhead at my side
Santa Ana wind blowin' hot from the north
And we was born to ride
Roll down the window, put down the top
Crank up the Beach Boys, baby
Don't let the music stop
We're gonna ride it till we just can't ride it no more
From the South Bay to the Valley
From the West Side to the East Side
Everybody's very happy
'Cause the sun is shining all the time
Looks like another perfect day
I love L.A. (We love it)
I love L.A. (We love it)
Look at that mountain
Look at those trees
Look at that bum over there, man
He's down on his knees
Look at these women
There ain't nothin' like em nowhere
Century Boulevard (We love it)
Victory Boulevard (We love it)
Santa Monica Boulevard (We love it)
Sixth Street (We love it, we love it)
San Fernando Valley (we love it!)
I love L.A.
(We Love It)
I Love L.A.
(We Love It)
I Love L.A.
(We Love It)
With regard to 23785 and the link you provided, I cannot agree. Though I grieve to see children inadvertently killed by U.S. bombing, I cannot disallow that the war will cause such horrors. This is a horrible understanding which causes grief to accept. My heart breaks while my mind accepts. This is a no win to me, but it will work toward anti-terrorism to some degree. This "degree" is a word to watch, an unknown cause and affect, rationally to be feared. There are ramifications however which are unknown and purely guesswork, and I refuse to speculate upon at this time.
We don't seem to be any safer than we were before 9/11.
We are still all going to die, that's for sure.
However, the ability of the people who organized the September 11 attacks to harm the U.S. has been greatly reduced.
Were you a big Taliban fan, by-the-way. Cause if you are, I can see how you would be upset that they aren't running things anymore.
As if you did not know.
I thought this was still a free country where we have freedom of expression, no matter how banal and uninformed that expression might seem to others.
It is. And it is for everybody. So you can post what you want say, and I can post what I want to say. And some people may not like what I post, and some people may not like what you post. But everybody is free to post what they want (more or less).
Yes, Dr. X, that is why I used those two adjectives, to save you the time.
I know exactly what you mean, Rama.
y'know, it was the conservatives who provided munition for the taliban to come to power, and who turned a blind eye to them for years.
but all along, it was lefties like chomsky who constantly criticized the US for its support of the taliban.
yet now, the conservatives seem to care about the "evil" taliban...with its human rights abuses and the oppression of women (and all the other things they throw at us to make us feel morally superior). but up until recent years, they were our buddies helping us fight the former evil empire.
amazingly, the left is now accused of supporting the taliban because it criticizes the US government. the major difference between the left and the right in the US is that the left is consistent whereas the right is opportunistically hypocritical.
Yes, the left thinks it's always 6:15, while the right changes its mind about what time it is every minute.
IO -
Puhleeze! The Taliban didn't even exist until 1993/4. They didn't come into power until 1996. How can you pretend to ignore the predominant influence of the administration or State Department during those years in which the US coddled and made deals with the Taliban?
Plus, you know it always has been the Left which has been in bed with Islamism and still is to a large extent.
People who pretend that world history took a vacation between 1992 and 2001 are dreaming, and that's exactly what blaming 'conservatives' for the Taliban amounts to.
"We have no other way to find justice at this point"
Thank you George Bush, All Highest Terror of a WarLord.
Thanks for nothin.
Now let's roll and find a president who's got a pair and a brain.
The CIA spent $5-6 billion dollars on nearly 2 dozen covert operations in afghanistan during the reagan era (source: 1989 interview in Z Magazine with John Stockwell). The goal, of course, was to humiliate the Soviets. Much of this cash (along with weapons technology) went to guerilla groups, such as those which would later make up the Taliban governing body. Our relationship with the afghan fundamentalists goes back to reagan, dumbass.
You are incorrect about the Left...it has not been in cahoots with ANY fundamentalist regimes. It has been the strongest critics of such regimes. However, considering how close the taliban ideology is to the influential conservative christian right here in the US, i'd say the Right would have little problem with allowing a brutal regime to oppress a "superfluous" population...which was the case until the Soviets entered afghanistan.
the left is consistent whereas the right is opportunistically hypocritical.
Yes, the left thinks it's always 6:15, while the right changes its mind about what time it is every minute.
However, if the right says it's 6:15, you must agree...because any opposition will be beaten, bombed, bullied and brutalized until it believes it is 6:15.
IO -
We both know that nothing happens without the administration and the state department's say so here. You're going on about conservatives and the Taliban during the x42 years is completely spurious, because no plausible justification for such assertions are to be had. What I hear you actually saying here is that you personally equate conservatives with the religious right, and both with Muslim fundamentalist extremists.
And why don't you remember Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski who started this Afghanistan ball of wax rolling in 1979?
IMO, you can't win. Either you place the blame and credit where it's due, or you, by totally ignoring the actions of Democrat administrations, effectively indicate that you believe that they are inferior and ineffective wrt foreign policy.
Neither Carter nor Brzezinski were head of the CIA, unlike Reagan's VP cum Oil Baron cum Gulf Warrior King George I (who's son has continued his legacy). And considering the CIA's large-scale ops in the region during Reagan, i find it hard to believe that it was all a coincidence (oh, wasn't there an "october surprise" as well?). i can't find any merit in your constant attempts at bashing democrats...
...which i could do as well. democratic presidents may be just as guilty of war mongering...but the mideast is a peculiar fetish of the reagan dynastic inheritors (who, it so happens, made a fortune from oil). you just want to bash them for the hell of it.
What I hear you actually saying here is that you personally equate conservatives with the religious right, and both with Muslim fundamentalist extremists.
yup. the conservative power base here tends to sleep with the christian right (e.g., W's recent fellatio of the Southern Baptist Convention)...and there's nothing conspiratorial or hidden about it.
and the christian right would like to see reproductive rights overturned and abortions made completely illegal...they would like to ensure that homosexuals are banned from virtually any community or social organizations (hell, many want 'em to die painful deaths!). according to the aforementioned southern baptist convention, women's role is in the home. the only difference between the fundie muslim and the fundie christian is that the fundie muslim doesn't have access to as much porn. their goals are otherwise virtually the same for society.
interesing newsflash...
In case you still aren't convinced that the christian Right is in cahoots with powerful conservatives in government
Even if he were 100% in his comparison, ivan apparently sees no difference between intent and execution.
Protest in front of an abortion clinic?
No different from flying airliners into buildings, or taking over the nearest war-ravaged country in order to impose the most oppressive social order of the past few centuries, or not allowing women to drive, etc, etc.
It's the thought that counts.
Terrifying trip in trunk recalled
Muskegon County prosecutors produced just one witness at Wednesday's preliminary hearing for a 50-year-old Muskegon man and his teen-age lover, charged with kidnapping the teen's estranged husband and leaving him for dead by a Kentucky road.
That witness -- the alleged victim --was enough.
After hearing 19-year-old Joshua Tribe's sometimes wrenching testimony, 60th District Judge Richard J. Pasarela ordered Phillip Anthony Brummett and
Cindy Marie Morrow, 19, bound over for trial in 14th Circuit Court.
No, if the right says it is 6:15, it actually is 6:15. It is the brutes on the left like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Ivan who have to rely on the strong arm to enforce their fantasy.
I think the widows of those murdered doctors might agree more with Ivan than with you, Joey.
I wish I could have a web site for my student loan debt which has been nothing more than a yoke from hell! Sure it was my choice to get a degree, but graduating in a recession, twice, and finding work that will pay the bills has been challenging for me. Next will be my daughters turn for higher education.
When my daughter graduates from high-school next year and we look at the final options for a university, what will happen? Another boat-load of loans?! Damn, I'm doomed! So it goes.
"Birth, School, Work, Death"! The "Godfathers" must have had me in mind when they wrote that song.
...verifying my point that it MUST be 6:15 if the right says so.
Stalin was about as Left as George Bush. Mao and Pol Pot were about as Left as Reagan. You ignorant modern neo-conservative parrots have been brainwashed into forgetting about the fact there is a Left that is not communist and who sees Al Gore as Center-Right...and there are a whole lot of us ;)
So you blame the american police state and its ridiculously overcrowded prison system on the Left???? (Recent cover article in the Ecomonist goes on at length to discuss that america has "too many convicts"...far more aggressive about it than russia). you believe that the Left...people like Chomsky and Zinn, for example, are strongarming americans???
the US is so full of such strongarming by the right that i have to wonder, Rama, have you ever actually lived here?
in philadelphia, for instance, the police thugs in conservative administrations have not only defied any constitutionality, they've dropped BOMBS on people who were Lefties. we have a homeleand security nazi in tom ridge, who doesn't care at all about the rights of free speech and personal protection against invasion of privacy. we stick our guns and weapons in other nations to tell THEM it's 6:15, dammit, and if you don't agree we'll starve your nation, give weapons to your enemies, and declare you an evil empire.
rama, if you were not a card-carrying americanist...and actually had some critical thinking skills instead of knee-jerk patriotism, you might gain an inkling into how manipulative and oppressive the US can be against anyone who commits the equivalent of "crimes against the state" (i.e., saying it may not be 6:15 after all).
let me rephrase, anticipating rama's comment that "crimes against the state" will be like 9/11....
change it to:
"against anyone who says it may not be 6:15 after all...which, thanks to homeland security, will be considered a crime against the state...an act of terrorism."
That hardly addresses the question of whether there is any difference, but instead reinforces that there is.
1) Antiabortionists must be clearer in their than thinking than Islamists because the latter evidently do think they can achieve their goals by such an action.
2) Antiabortionists obviously have not used airplanes in such a manner, whereas Islamists have.
Should we limit the comparison to the minds of anitabortionists versus the minds of Islamists, rather than the actions, we still see a dissimiliarity on point one. Moreover, in any group of people a radical element may think all kinds of things--there are posters here, for example, who would like to see the White House nuked--but the ratio of such nutcases to the rational elements is also significant.
That is, if we deal with hypothetical "solutions" and posit the desired outcome would be achieved given an action, then the number of people in favor of the action likely goes up in both cases. Some antiabortionists would say yes, the ends justifies the means. The number of people in the Middle East who would favor destruction of the US White House if such destruction removed Israel and the US as influences in the region would, I expect, be far greater.
It is more a question of access to the needed technology and the target, once you are convinced that it is OK to kill people to acheive a desired end. If Eric Rudolph had access to a truckload of explosives as did Timothy McVeigh, do you think that his Christian morals would inhibit him from using it to inflict mass casualties to advance the cause of a greater good?
first: the anti-abortion fundies have not been invaded by tanks and armies, nor have they been turned into natural resource prostitutes by greedy american pimps. the anti-abortion fundies have not been emasculated, had their cultural and human rights taken from them, and are not yet at their wits end (they have too much support right now). therefore, US fundies are not as desperate.
so: strategically, a violent attack on government buildings would do them no good as they'd be attacking the very same people who support them (i.e., a good portion of the white house, congress, etc..). also, this does not strike a blow symbolically against abortion doctors or people who have/want abortions. because abortion is not an institution, like the US government, anti-abortion fundies do not HAVE a concrete target to hit.
so you CAN, (and should) in fact, look at the rhetoric of both christian fundies and islamic fundies to see where they are similar or different...because this is the where later actions come from. strip away mohammed or jesus, and you find chillingly similar ideologies.
until there is some institutionalized government edifice for the function of managing and promoting abortions, you won't see any anti-abortion fundies attacking government buildings.
but oh wait...planned parenthood offices are the closest thing to the above and hey, they've never been attacked, right?
From CNN:
CINCINNATI, Ohio (AP) -- A man who admitted mailing fake anthrax letters to abortion clinics was sentenced Thursday to 19 years and seven
months in prison on firearms and theft charges.
"I'm not remorseful," he told the judge. "I'm not
begging for forgiveness for what I did, because I
thought it was right."
Federal authorities have said that Waagner claimed responsibility for sending more than 550 letters filled with powder to about 280 women's reproductive health clinics in October and November, at the height of the nation's anthrax scare.
so let's talk about actions. those people being detained because they are muslims haven't committed acts of terrorism. yet they are detained and stripped of their rights.
let's talk about actions. we are the only nation to use nuclear weapons on another. we supported saddam hussein, for instance, and while he fought our other evil enemy, we gave him weapons. US businesses, like ford, were fellating the nazis just in case they won. yet, these are okay. we can't judge an entire nation on the actions of a few of its most powerful people, right?
you can create the notion of some ideology of "Islamism" based on (as many here say) the actions of a small minority of muslims...and ultimately condemn a religion based on them (see link in #23805 to watch this in action). but you can't do that based on eric rudolph, for instance.
if you want to reserve judgment based on actions, be prepared to get stones thrown at you.
First of all, despite your innuendo, Timothy McVeigh had no religious agenda. (You might wish to make yourself a little more "aware" before lecturing others to do so.) Bringing him in as a point of comparison is irrelevant, except to show how desperate your position is. Second, this is entirely different from what you asked in your first question. Now you postulate that it is because antiabortionists don't have access to the means to carry out their attacks. Does this indicate you have already modified your one-post earlier position--that they realize the futility of such an attack to achieve their aims?
It will be difficult to debate your position if you continually change it in this manner.
Your example of McVeigh, however, while not an example of an anti-abortionist or even religious fundamentalist, does help invalidate this new line of argument on your part. Clearly before 911 it was possible for an American terrorist to acquire the means to commit terror. Yet antiabortionists didn't drive a Ryder truck or fly a plane into the Department of Human Services.
They could, but they didn't. And yes, that's a significant difference.
How many people died from those letters?
Alive, dead, there's no difference, eh?
Islamic fundamentalists are fighting something for which the United States is a sympton, not a cause, namely modernity. I would suggest that their goals are a return to the good ol' days of the 9th Century AD, and that their principal targets are regimes in Moslem countries, not the United States.
Also, putting yourself so far out on the political spectrum enables you to label just about everything to the right of you as fascist, or whatever, which makes your analysis of events about as useful as concerned's.
The mailer received 19 years and 7 months in prison.
Good thing he wasn't Muslim or they would have thrown the book at him.
If fanatical FILL-IN-THE-BLANK thought they could FILL-IN-THE-BLANK by FILL-IN SOME HORRIBLE CATACLYSM, they would.
That's why we call them fanatics
As it happens, before setting out on his Oklahoma City mission, McVeigh was at Elohim City, a Christian Fundamentalist community. You are being disingenuous to suggest that McVeigh did not sympathize with their goals, and did not run in those circles. He obviously did.
Besides, I though science was McVeigh's religion?
Where would those circles be?
Wilson Goode was a conservative?????
MOVE were lefties????
Find a nut.
Study the circles wherein he travels.
Make sure those circles are antithetical to your own beliefs.
Simmer.
Voila! Smear the lot of 'em.
Kaczynski was a loner during his time at Harvard, and he was a loner all his life. He acted alone in sending out his package bombs. McVeigh operated within a community of like-minded people. If you don't believe me, read accounts of their trials, and testimony.
Over the last few decades, the Feds have broken up attempts by lefties, righties (Christian and otherwise), and Moslem radicals to inflict mass casualties in the United States.
Not according to this:
[T]here is no evidence that McVeigh ever traveled to Elohim City....
Or this:
The defense has no information that Mr. McVeigh was ever present at Elohim City or ever met Dennis Mahon.
Maybe some of the things you are "aware" of aren't correct.
Q: Why are they being forced into modernity?
A: Because they have oil.
you may say the US is only a symptom...but since most western intrusion post WWII has been american, it's a tough sell to say the US is not the cause of the encroachment of modernity into the mideast. why DON'T they have a right to be less modern?
Many historians were at a loss to understand why science, which up until the 10th or 11th centures c.e. reached a peak in the islamic world, wound up advancing very very little (or not at all) in the muslim world after the 12th century. this resistance may have been caused by fundamentalists (their christian fundie cousins still want to teach creationism in schools here, i might add) but isn't that their right? the only reason we care is because we need to turn them into american capitalists so we can manage their oil. and yes, their principle targets ARE muslim regimes...the ones who are in bed with the bush dynasty, for instance. but that's their right.
your comments about my leftism on the spectrum makes you sound like a knee-jerk conservative (which i know you aren't...but rhetoric is rhetoric)...the kind that assume all lefties are uninformed pacifists who support communism and terrorists (i consider myself NONE of these things). kindly be a bit more careful about monikers. just because i find bush and reagan to be as fascistic as mao and pol pot, please don't think i lump ALL people into such realms...like moderate lefties, for instance (who i don't consider fascists even though they are to my right).
Let sit and serve.
Edmund
The facts are appreciated, but I'm not sure they matter to Wombat.
move ARE lefties.
Absurd.
We could care less if they modernize as long as they sell us the oil. Or they could even give it to us since the internal combustion engine is modern and hence evil. We'll gladly bear the burden of such sin.
Modernizing them only means they know how to fly airplanes and make better bombs. Why would we want to do that?
I retract my assertion that McVeigh was at Elohim City. I would point out that according the sources you cite, the leadership there has changed its stories a number of times as to his contacts with people there before Oklahoma City, and that it is very much in their interests to distance themselves from McVeigh, given that their beliefs are essentially the same.
Wow.
So, can we now go on to blame those whose religion is science?
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were not "fascist" by any definition except yours. They came from the left, and based their beliefs and actions on their interpretation of Marx and other leftist thinkers.
if we had allowed islam to remain as "backwards" as their fundies wanted...they would have become politically and militaristically impotent. they would impose no threat against their neighbors (as their non-muslim neighbors would have advanced weaponry and they'd be stuck with 10th century scimitars). they might even have been destroyed...annhilated by their encroaching neighors with their tanks and guns. hmmm...in one sense modernity hurt them and in another sense it may have saved them.
McVeigh was not religious, and as I recall he was raised a Catholic. I don't know what the people at Elohim believed, other than what the article says, but in terms of religion their beliefs and McVeigh's were different.
stalin, mao and pol pot were dictators...despite their "communism". they were fascists, by the very definition:
Fascism: 1. a) a system of government marked by a totalitarian dictator, socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition, and usually a policy of beligerent nationalism and racism. b) a political philosophy or movemen based on or advocating such a system. 2. Oppressive dictatorial control [Ital. "fascismo"
mao, stalin, pol pot...all fit the definition. no, they weren't italian "fascisti", but they certainly were fascists.
and further, marx was a wealthy capitalist himself...the man visited a factory twice in his life and lived off the largesse of others. i'm so tired of having him considered "Left". this whole notion is based on cold war propaganda.
The Arabs don't resent being modernized in the way you see as "evil." They want to drive Mercedes and use cell phones and leave the simple edenic village for the garish lights of Gomorrah. They resent the modernization that I'm guessing you see as "good."
They want to keep their women cloaked, behead sinners, and maintain an elite, unelected leadership--usually comprising either religious dogmatics or civilian and military thugs.
WHAT other leftist thinkers? did stalin read his fellow russians bakunin or kropotkin???
We could care less if they modernize as long as they sell us the oil.
i'd agree if it were possible in reality. but short of absolute military domination, the best way to benefit from their oil was to give THEM the material benefits of modernity. so really, modernity provided an easier mideastern milieu for which to allow capitalism to run free.
Earlier you said we were forcing them to modernize. Now we're "giving" them "benefits." Is there no distinction between those two?
Or are they "the same"--like the way flying airplanes into buildings and thinking in a hypothetical situation about maybe flying an airplane into a building, or really killing people versus scaring people with fake anthrax are all the same?
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were not "fascist" by any definition except yours.
that is the damn funniest thing I've heard all day! (and I have needed a laugh of late) did the ISO pay you to post that or was that your own brilliant conclusion?
another binary conservative view.
we "gave" them the benefits of modernity...meaning, we gave their leaders the mercedes' you mentioned. we gave their leaders the perverse pleasures of western decadence (if you know anything of islamic folklore, you will see tons of stories about people in power being easily corrupted by greed) and asked them for oil. if they had refused, they'd be screwed (through militarism and through support for the enemies of their regime)...and they knew this.
did we force modernity? yes. but to do so we gave them a choice: either join our decadence or be fucked by our military and economic power. perhaps in your simple dualistic view, they were given a choice and therefore volunteered for modernity. but a more realistic expectation was that many of these mideastern leaders were smart enough to see that they could either capitulate and join the modern world or they could be forced to hand over their oil.
I think Wombat is right when he says:
Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were not "fascist" by any definition except yours.
That definition belongs to the specialized terminology employed in the anarcho-syndicalist community and has little relevance in the general political discussion.
Marx was not a capitalist. He was certainly a bourgeoise, as evidenced in Francis Wheen's recent biograhy which gives an amusing account of Marx's domestic travails. Engels, on the other hand, was a capitalist.
Prince Kropotkin and Bakunin, the son of a nobleman, also did not exactly belong to the lumpenproletariat.
You are wong when you link Arab modernisation with oil. The modernisation drive was spearheaded by Nasser in the 50s. Egypt has no oil.
why? is it too insulting to call a dictator something that is substantiated by the dictionary definition of the word? i use the word specifically to describe despots, dictators...leaders who forcibly move the soioeconomic conditions according to their wishes and despite the wishes of the population (i.e., tyranny). i don't accuse everyone of being fascists...just those who are.
Marx was not a capitalist. He was certainly a bourgeoise, as evidenced in Francis Wheen's recent biograhy which gives an amusing account of Marx's domestic travails. Engels, on the other hand, was a capitalist.
oh, pardon me...half of the manifesto was done by a capitalist, the other by a person who didn't have to work for a living.
Prince Kropotkin and Bakunin, the son of a nobleman, also did not exactly belong to the lumpenproletariat.
but they were lefties, no? not communists either, eh?
egypt has no oil. it has strategic importance as a large state with a good location and best potential to create a secularly educated intellectual class. if one were to plant the seeds for modernization, one would best start with the nation that had the most likelihood for its success.
since i won't have time to debate you on many of these points...and i'd defer to your academic superiority anyway (i'm a europhile at heart as well)...i'm throwing in a towel here so that you don't force me to reopen the books i've ignored for a while. i'm reading too many complex things at the moment and my head's about to explode.
i'll just be happy that i beat ya at american trivia on 21.
Of course Kropotkin and Bakunin were of the non-communist left. I have more to say on this but I'll move it to Ideologies.
move ARE left...
Please ivan - please don't tell me you guys belong to this wacko group.
Please do not tell me I have been seriously interacting with the absolute bottom of the gene pool barrel.
#58 and #59 were crosspoints. I'm not continuing the debate in Ideologies but bringing up a new, but related subject.
"Academic superiority". Ha!
b) having lived in philadelphia, and having been involved with the activist and anarchist communities there, i can tell you that MOVE was not a quiet, passive group...they were most certainly agitators. however, they were not the murderous or dangerous group that the extremely corrupt rizzo/goode administrations saw fit to railroad constantly. thanks to the heavily biased philly press, MOVE is and was misrepresented as was typical of the anti-Left media slant.
c) most of the west philly neighborhood where the MOVE bombing took place was opposed to police tactics against MOVE. currently, as the city destroyed an ENTIRE block of houses belonging to working class people with no particular activist agenda (who were also black, i might add), those (black people, i reiterate) whose houses were destroyed were basically given the choice of taking what turns out to be less than a fair market value of their homes or they get nothing. so for years, these displaced people got the shaft.
d) having walked by pam afrika's house on a number of occasions (i once looked at a house on her block to rent), and having heard the current MOVE members speak, i can say that while i wouldn't be a member of MOVE, i would support their activities to protest the philadelphia police and judicial system (a notoriously corrupt and brutal partnership) and would be glad to be one of their neighbors.
e) american conservatives just don't like it when black people mobilize. calling them the bottom of the gene pool enforces the ignorance that is rampant among americanists who are quick to read a newspaper and assume it's correctly portraying anyone it writes about (except when it criticizes conservatives).
Ivan -
If I ever had any doubts that you are a madman, the above have dispelled them, you nutburger.
Why not just put on the kaffiyeh and start bowing toward Mecca five times a day right now, IO?
Utter bullshit, ivan.
It so happens I was in Philly that entire week, and for a week after, as my girlfriend was attending Temple U, in an MPA program (actually, we stayed in Bryn Mawr at her parents' house) - so I spent alot of time there. As part of an internship, in fact, my girlfriend worked in that very neighborhood - up to a few weeks after the bombing. Long before that, though, the residents of that neighborhood made it clear to her that they wanted the MOVE people gone.
They had been complaining for months prior to that incident, because the MOVE people were absolute pigs - their water and gas had been shut off for non-payment, and they continued to keep their many, many kids there in the most squalid conditions imaginable. They treated those kids like I would never treat a dog. They ran naked, filthy, and completely unsupervised. They fended for themselves - even those who were not even walking yet. They ate from the neighbors' trash. Every single kid there had to be fumigated, as they all had scabies, lice, and every other parasitem there is. Many had extremely nasty staph infections - most likely from the piss-soaked furniture they were forced to sleep on, when they were allowed in the house. Many also showed classic symptoms of sexual and physical abuse.
Come on, ivan - what were you, 10 y.o. when this happened? You have no perspective on this outside of what your current politics dictate.
Move is/was a group of anti-social wackos.
wow you were there for 2 weeks and your girlfriend who majored in what, save the poor folk from themselves, probably do know more about the situation than the lifelong residents of that particular neighborhood who Ivan and I have been friends with.
I won't comment of the MOVE of 25 years ago. You are painting a very distorted and less than honest picture of them, but if you believe what you believe then I can see how you would support the bombing and murder of civilians in an american city. Given your perspective, it completely makes sense to drop a bomb in the middle of a crowded neighborhood killing innocent people and destroying the homes of even more innocent people. That is a logical and appropriate response to the situation.
And let's just say MOVE was a group of "anti-social wackos", should we be bombing people for this offense? Of course.
joezan you ignorant slut, perhaps you did not observe this in your two whole weeks in Philadelphia, but the Philly cops use black folks (men in particular) as target practice. It's a city infamous for rail-roading and framing activists. It's a city government long considered the most corrupt in America (though that image seems to be fading). But I'm sure your expertise on the subject allows you to ignore the inconvenient realities that innocent people were killed by their own government for crimes ranging from "unsanitary living conditions" to "disturbing the peace".
wow you were there for 2 weeks and your girlfriend who majored in what, save the poor folk from themselves, probably do know more about the situation than the lifelong residents of that particular neighborhood who Ivan and I have been friends with.
I won't comment of the MOVE of 25 years ago. You are painting a very distorted and less than honest picture of them, but if you believe what you believe then I can see how you would support the bombing and murder of civilians in an american city. Given your perspective, it completely makes sense to drop a bomb in the middle of a crowded neighborhood killing innocent people and destroying the homes of even more innocent people. That is a logical and appropriate response to the situation.
And let's just say MOVE was a group of "anti-social wackos", should we be bombing people for this offense? Of course.
joezan you ignorant slut, perhaps you did not observe this in your two whole weeks in Philadelphia, but the Philly cops use black folks (men in particular) as target practice. It's a city infamous for rail-roading and framing activists. It's a city government long considered the most corrupt in America (though that image seems to be fading). But I'm sure your expertise on the subject allows you to ignore the inconvenient realities that innocent people were killed by their own government for crimes ranging from "unsanitary living conditions" to "disturbing the peace".
wow you were there for 2 weeks and your girlfriend who majored in what, save the poor folk from themselves, probably do know more about the situation than the lifelong residents of that particular neighborhood who Ivan and I have been friends with.
I won't comment of the MOVE of 25 years ago. You are painting a very distorted and less than honest picture of them, but if you believe what you believe then I can see how you would support the bombing and murder of civilians in an american city. Given your perspective, it completely makes sense to drop a bomb in the middle of a crowded neighborhood killing innocent people and destroying the homes of even more innocent people. That is a logical and appropriate response to the situation.
And let's just say MOVE was a group of "anti-social wackos", should we be bombing people for this offense? Of course.
joezan you ignorant slut, perhaps you did not observe this in your two whole weeks in Philadelphia, but the Philly cops use black folks (men in particular) as target practice. It's a city infamous for rail-roading and framing activists. It's a city government long considered the most corrupt in America (though that image seems to be fading). But I'm sure your expertise on the subject allows you to ignore the inconvenient realities that innocent people were killed by their own government for crimes ranging from "unsanitary living conditions" to "disturbing the peace".
wow you were there for 2 weeks and your girlfriend who majored in what, save the poor folk from themselves, probably do know more about the situation than the lifelong residents of that particular neighborhood who Ivan and I have been friends with.
I won't comment of the MOVE of 25 years ago. You are painting a very distorted and less than honest picture of them, but if you believe what you believe then I can see how you would support the bombing and murder of civilians in an american city. Given your perspective, it completely makes sense to drop a bomb in the middle of a crowded neighborhood killing innocent people and destroying the homes of even more innocent people. That is a logical and appropriate response to the situation.
And let's just say MOVE was a group of "anti-social wackos", should we be bombing people for this offense? Of course.
joezan you ignorant slut, perhaps you did not observe this in your two whole weeks in Philadelphia, but the Philly cops use black folks (men in particular) as target practice. It's a city infamous for rail-roading and framing activists. It's a city government long considered the most corrupt in America (though that image seems to be fading). But I'm sure your expertise on the subject allows you to ignore the inconvenient realities that innocent people were killed by their own government for crimes ranging from "unsanitary living conditions" to "disturbing the peace".
wow you were there for 2 weeks and your girlfriend who majored in what, save the poor folk from themselves, probably do know more about the situation than the lifelong residents of that particular neighborhood who Ivan and I have been friends with.
I won't comment of the MOVE of 25 years ago. You are painting a very distorted and less than honest picture of them, but if you believe what you believe then I can see how you would support the bombing and murder of civilians in an american city. Given your perspective, it completely makes sense to drop a bomb in the middle of a crowded neighborhood killing innocent people and destroying the homes of even more innocent people. That is a logical and appropriate response to the situation.
And let's just say MOVE was a group of "anti-social wackos", should we be bombing people for this offense? Of course.
joezan you ignorant slut, perhaps you did not observe this in your two whole weeks in Philadelphia, but the Philly cops use black folks (men in particular) as target practice. It's a city infamous for rail-roading and framing activists. It's a city government long considered the most corrupt in America (though that image seems to be fading). But I'm sure your expertise on the subject allows you to ignore the inconvenient realities that innocent people were killed by their own government for crimes ranging from "unsanitary living conditions" to "disturbing the peace".
We can continue this another time but my munchkin wants some loving. Perhaps next time we can talk about the details of the restraining order MOVE has on the Police.
I've heard LA, DC, NY, Detroit, and probably a few others blessed with that distinction over my 40-something years. But never Philly.
joezan you ignorant slut, perhaps you did not observe this in your two whole weeks in Philadelphia, but the Philly cops use black folks (men in particular) as target practice.
Actually, all told I was probably there at least 7 or 8 weeks a year for 4 years while my gf was in school, between vacations and weekends. And in fact, one of my first impressions of the Philly police force was that it included a whole lot more Black officers than did the NYPD - at least 1/2 the force, or so it seemed to me.
Anyway, ivan's (and now your) claim of some kind of evil conservative cabal operating out of City Hall, hellbent on persecuting Philly's Blacks is just ludicrous. Wilson Goode was a typical Eastern liberal Black mayor, and that bomb was dropped on his orders.
I should also mention, ftr, that the "bomb" (actually a concussion bomb) was not meant to do any damage at all, besides blowing open the roof door, after the Move cretins refused to come out.
"I know what you meant to do. It's what you did that I don't like" (opening line of "The Wild Bunch")
SUMMARY: Three people have been arrested in Florida on election fraud charges in the drive to repeal Miami-Dade County's gay rights law.
Florida Department of Law Enforcement agents have arrested three people, including Antonio "Anthony" Verdugo, the head of the Miami-Dade Christian Coalition, on charges related to election fraud in the petition drive to repeal Miami-Dade County's gay rights law, the Miami Herald reports.
A spokesman for the special prosecutor handling the case told the Herald that a fourth person will also be arrested.
Verdugo, who sits on the board of Take Back Miami-Dade, was arrested Friday, along with notary public Ralph Peterson, 76. On Thursday, officers took custody of Christian Montoya, a 17-year-old petition volunteer
I agree with you, actually, about the limited appeal of Christian Reconstructionism. I posted that link to show simply that it exists. But it is a fringe movement, and shows no signs of growing. I disagree with the assertion in the link that it has had a major influence on the Christian Right, though undoubtedly it has influenced some people.
As for extreme Islam, that will decline with economic advances and democratization in the Muslim world, eventually.
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
SHAFIQ RASUL, et al
v.
GEORGE WALKER BUSH, etal
Respondents
All sued in their official
and individual capacities.
PETITION FOR WRIT OF HABEAS CORPUS
1. Petitioners David Hicks, Asif Iqbal, and Shafiq Rasul seek the Great Writ. They act on their own behalf and through their Next Friends: Terry Hicks acts for his son David, Mohammed Iqbal acts for his son Asif, and Skina Bibi acts for her son Shafiq Rasul. David Hicks is a citizen of Australia. Mr. Iqbal and Mr. Rasul are citizens of the United Kingdom. They are being held virtually incommunicado in respondents' unlawful custody.
I've just been surfing around for more info about the Philly bombing, and having re-acquainted myself with the story (for instance, I had forgotten most of the details of the run-ins the previous Philly admin had with them), the similarities between the events involving Move and those involving the Branch Davidians are striking.
First off (and I had completely forgotten this), Move was also a (nominally) Christian separatist group - in fact their original name was The Christian... (something-or-other). Then of course there is the fact that both groups were busy stocking up on weapons in preparation for an impending gov't raid; The children of both groups were both abused; When the expected raids finally came, both groups shot it out, resulting in the deaths of law-enforcement agents; They met uncannily similar ends - with the gov't triggering out-of-control blazes resulting in many deaths, most horribly of innocent children.
Finally, of course, there is this:
Both tragedies were initiated by Democrat admins.
So. Does this not beg the question:
Why do democrats have no compunction about about bombing their own people, but they fight the President tooth-and-nail about going after Saddam?
Meet the Press
Dr. Kissinger is on right now saying W has made the "intellectual case needed" to proceed. Now he must proceed with the polititcal process.
Dr. Kiss is kissing some ass here. What does he need more media attention for? Damn media!
General Schwartzkopf counting the number of Iraqi soldiers and weapons, states the affectiveness of the U.S. going alone isn't the best method. He sanely says we shouldn't go alone. Not going at all hasn't been thouroughly discussed with the general.
The media junksters left that to Rice. "Clearly he's evil", we must get rid of him.
Then Sen., Dick Lugar is asked about this pro-war idea by Rice. Dick thinks we need to exhaust our intelligence resources and require public and political support.
Then Sen. ImHofe about congressional approval, this dingleberry is saying the bombings in Yemen and the dragging of troops through Mogadishu(?),where Iraq he says has culpability, allow the president tacit support. He says we should listen to Rice. His opinion is worthless.
The Dr. noted that Saudi's are lacks with security measures toward our intentions. But, he thinks the Saudi issues can be managed. He said the intentions of some in the security commitees who think Saudi a major problem are reckless with their opinions. The Dr. has some base of information, since he was so involved with diplomatic affairs with former Pres. Nixon.
Considering this thoughtfully, do his former dealings sway his current opinions? Speculative, but it's possible. Whether the Saudi's are some kind of threat is exactly what U.S. intelligence is supposed to be aware of. Alas we are not privy to such exacting information. We have to trust that the intelligence gathering is accurate. That's unsettling. We've no choice toward that problem.
I think with all the issues, it will be difficult to accept an attack against Iraq using information given thus far.
"So. Does this not beg the question:
"Why do democrats have no compunction about about bombing their own people . . .?"
Hahaha! That one's worthy of Ann Coulter.
FALLSBURG, N.Y. (AP) -- A bear killed a 5-month-old girl Monday after knocking her out of a stroller and dragging the infant into the woods, police said.
The baby had been near the porch of a vacation bungalow with family members when the black bear approached, said Fallsburg Police Chief Brent Lawrence.
The mother shuttled her 4- and 2-year-old children inside, Lawrence said. When she returned outside, the infant was gone.
Now how many bears will have to die because of careless humans?
LONDON - Want to be more attractive? Then make sure those around you are having a drink.
British scientists have found even modest amounts of alcohol will make the opposite sex appear better-looking.
"We have carried out experiments which show that what is known in the trade as the 'beer-goggle effect' does actually exist," said Barry Jones, professor of psychology at Glasgow University.
The study of 120 male and female students found drinking up to four units of alcohol -- about two pints of beer or four glasses of wine --increased the perceived attractiveness of members of the opposite sex by about 25 percent.
Jones said alcohol apparently stimulates a part of the brain called the nucleus accumbens, which judges facial attractiveness.
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A man allegedly tried to carjack a van carrying members of a Florida judo club, but a half-dozen of the student athletes fought back, and he was arrested.
``We had this guy like a pretzel on the ground,'' said Nestor Bustillo, instructor for the Florida International University team, which was in town to teach a self-defense course.
Tyrone Jermaine Hogan, 20, was arrested Sunday for investigation of felony carjacking, kidnapping and robbery, police Sgt. Allen Hamilton said. He was being held in lieu of $1.2 million bail.
Trying to give Dean Kamen another chance to pull the wool over the public's eyes with a new 'revolutionary' transport vehicle?
The English coverage of the missing girls mirrored that which have been going on in the US since that girl was abducted from her house in Utah.
I've read or heard somewhere that such abductions and murders in the US are actually dropping. I never realized that little girls were particularly vulnerable to to such an awful crime. I would be crazy if I had a child right now, worrying about this.
The new series started out well, I thought. The Vicar found his farmer friend beheaded in his barn.
The new series started out well, I thought. The Vicar found his farmer friend beheaded in his barn.
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