Setting down bags...
We're home!
Post your parenting trials and tribulations, joys and questions, here.
2. Rosetta Stone - 1/27/2001 9:49:44 AM
How do you wake up a teenager boy on a Saturday morning when he was up past 1 a.m. last night at a party?
Time-sensitive question.
3. PelleNilsson - 1/27/2001 9:58:34 AM
Trust Rosetta to go for the essential issues right from the start.
4. Shannon - 1/27/2001 10:01:40 AM
Hi Erin!
Personally, I'd love to find a way to make mine sleep later in the mornings. yawn
5. Erin R. - 1/27/2001 10:13:32 AM
Mine is still asleep with dad. Both are night owls who like to sleep in.
Shannon, you might try giving him benadryl before bed. Or even now--it's not too late.
Rosetta, might I suggest a bucket of ice water?
6. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 10:17:47 AM
Mose likes to sleep late on weekends and we let her, since she has to get up so early every weekday, and her dad and I have always been late sleepers. My philosophy on child-rearing and mornings, is teach them to use the remote and open the refrigerator as young as possible.
Is there a reason he needs to be up, Rose, are do you just want to irritate him? (perish the thought!)
7. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 10:23:55 AM
or
8. Shannon - 1/27/2001 10:49:31 AM
Well, mine got up this morning and filled the dog's water bowl with canteloupe and crackers. What were they thinking?
For the most part, they do OK without us in the mornings. But son is an extreme extrovert, and will wake us up just to talk to us. Not as much now that he can talk to his sister more.
9. Erin R. - 1/27/2001 10:56:36 AM
Shannon, my son *eats* the contents of the dog bowl if you allow him access.
10. PsychProf - 1/27/2001 10:58:12 AM
Haha...brings back memories Erin.
11. PsychProf - 1/27/2001 11:00:18 AM
Erin...I teach a College section on Parenting, am one, and have great interest in such. Thanks for hosting and introducing this topic.
12. Erin R. - 1/27/2001 11:01:39 AM
Please tell me he won't be doing this the morning we pack him off for college.
They should make baby food in the form of kibble.
13. PsychProf - 1/27/2001 11:03:12 AM
I have actually tasted dog food and I've had worse.
14. vw - 1/27/2001 11:21:47 AM
How do you wake up a teenager boy on a Saturday morning when he was up past 1 a.m. last night at a party?
My mother was an evil, evil woman. She would keep 7 or 8 big metal ball bearings in the freezer. If you didn’t get out of bed the third time she called you, she would pull back your covers and throw the cold ball bearings in there with you.
15. JudithAtHome - 1/27/2001 11:38:12 AM
Wow, that beats my mom banging a pot with the pot lid right next to my head...by a long shot. Brrrrrr.
16. PsychProf - 1/27/2001 12:03:24 PM
Let's make this thread a GUILT FREE ZONE where we can brag or moan w/o inhibition.
17. PsychProf - 1/27/2001 12:05:58 PM
Or diasagee with eachother.
18. PsychProf - 1/27/2001 12:06:18 PM
dis.
19. PsychProf - 1/27/2001 12:16:06 PM
Sorry...disagree...I am trying to interview College wannabes and I am jumping here between visits...I guess what I want to say is that hopefully we can disagree with each other on parenting practice w/o taking the difference personally...this is difficult to be sure.
20. CalGal - 1/27/2001 12:20:39 PM
Gosh. Spawn gets his own self up and it's the rare exception when he oversleeps. I am quite cranky when he oversleeps, as he did yesterday.
But I hear that the teen years turn into up all night and sleep all day. However, I plan on instituting a week night bed time for a lot more years.
When he was little, he always got up by himself and played or watched TV without waking me. Still does--I woke up this morning to find him snuggled on the couch, watching The Man Who Would Be King.
Although lately, I've been limiting his TV watching quite a bit. For years, he was able to get his school work done and make his own choices. But as his responsibilities increase (both in school and at home), I've found that I've really cut down on his hours.
21. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 12:27:16 PM
Congratulations on Spawn's SATs and getting into the program, Cal. Tell him congratulations! I know he'll love it.
Mose had a hard time adjusting her sleep, schoolwork, music, socializing, and all the stuff she wanted to do throughout her early teens. Now she has her own system and she's doing better than she ever has. Unless she starts really dragging around or getting sick, I let her set her own schedule, with a limit on weeknights. She's so busy right now I really don't see how she's doing it. I never could have done what I see many top high schoolers doing when I was their age.
The junior high age group a lot of adjustments to make, and the transition period is quite an experience--both good and bad. At least it certainly was for us.
22. Shannon - 1/27/2001 12:28:41 PM
The first time Q ever got up and made his own breakfast, he came running back to tell us. "Mommy and Daddy! I made cereal for me and Maia!"
He'd done fine. She was sitting there eating, his bowl was at the table, there was no mess. But he still had to wake us up. It's a mystery how we produced such an extrovert. He's not nearly as good at playing by himself as his sister, who's 2 years younger.
And here he is, back to talk to me again. He ran out of the room a couple of minutes ago, saying "I'll be back to talk to you some more in a minute."
23. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 12:37:31 PM
That's so sweet!
24. JudithAtHome - 1/27/2001 12:59:41 PM
Maybe it's important to him to keep in touch with you...trust me, there will come a day when you will look back on this trait fondly. (Not that you don't now...this was just a set-up for my punchline.)
Like when he is 38 and hasn't called in a week. :-)
25. CalGal - 1/27/2001 1:04:07 PM
That is really sweet.
Thanks, Arky! I told Spawn and he said thanks, too.
I wonder if Spawn will find his own activities. He used to, but now that I've put him in the small private school there aren't nearly as many opportunities to just sign up for things--he and I have to hunt them out. Still, he generally does his own reading of newspapers and other material to find things that interest him. Right now he's just switched schools so between school and music lessons, I've decided to hold on that for a month or two to see how things play out.
26. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 1:11:05 PM
All Mose is signed up for is band and taking piano, but that's very time consuming, because she's in jazz band and concert band. She had to give up choir, where she was doing well, to take jazz band. She's also in the honors program, so all her classes are advanced. She thinks they're easier than last year, but they're not, and I can see that she's studying more and more efficiently. Plus, we have the boyfriend, and they have to allot some time for eachother, and he's in both bands and is a golfer who also works in addition to giving some lessons at the country club, so between the two of them they do quite a bit of time juggling, which is better than other kinds of juggling, imo--I hope they stay this busy until he goes off to college this fall.
And his mom's one of those who has so much energy and is always inviting us over and sending us care packages of leftovers, etc. Makes me look like a slob of a parent in comparison.
27. Shannon - 1/27/2001 1:11:55 PM
Speaking of music lessons, what's a good age for kids to start piano lessons? I've heard it depends somewhat on the size of their hands.
I have no musical ablity. DH plays guitar and comes from a pretty musical family. I'm hoping the kids will inherit the music gene from his side. So far, Maia seems a bit more into music than Quentin. She started Kindermusik again today. DH said she got really into it. In the past, she's been kind of slow to start participating--she's a little reserved with strangers. But there were 3 or 4 kids she knew from previous classes, so I guess she felt more comfortable. And of course she's older now and more familiar with the whole process.
Our first attempt at a team sport starts soon. We've signed Q up for t-ball. I'm not sure how he'll like it--there might be too much standing around for his taste. But he likes the idea of baseball a lot, and he loves to play with his little bat and ball set. So we'll see how it goes. That starts in March.
28. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 1:22:47 PM
From my own experience it doesn't matter how young they are if they have a good teacher for their age...whenever they show interest and as long as they're progressing. Mine lost interest for a time, though, and we didn't let her quit soon enough, which was a mistake. She had the best teacher at the time I've ever seen, and I knew the young woman wouldn't be available long and was trying to get Mose to stick it out through the year to learn as much as she could from such a phenomenal teacher before she moved on to bigger and better places.
Mose continued to play and was always very involved in music, though, and has begged for the past year to get back in piano lessons, and she's 16 and doing beautifully. Her new teacher is thrilled to have her.
29. Shannon - 1/27/2001 1:28:12 PM
We don't have a piano currently. We'd both like to get one soon. I'm doubtful I could ever really learn to play, but DH could probably pick up a bit and would enjoy having it around.
30. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 1:36:05 PM
We've got a cool 100 year old upright which Mose thinks she's too good to play, but which sounds good, imo. She has a fairly expensive electric piano that's whatchamacallit-sensitive (some synapse which connects my brain to my vocabulary has sure been misfiring a lot lately), but is starting to prod for an acoustic piano. Ain't gonna happen, though.
If you can get someone to help you who knows what they're doing you can shop around and find a good used one pretty easily. The universities occasionally sell off their pianos and we get invitation cards for the sales in the mail, but those things have been played to death, I imagine. They sure look worn out in the practice studios on campus, anyway.
31. JudithAtHome - 1/27/2001 1:42:04 PM
Arky:
I love your upright and Mose plays so well....I was literally blown away that morning when she began to play. Glad she's taking lessons again and doing so well otherwise, too.
And I want to add, you are so lucky in the young man she chose...he is an extremely bright young man and so personable. Not to mention cute! But he should be, to match HER...
Well, I wish Keoni would get back from his appointment so we can leave and I won't have to look at my name in half a dozen threads as last poster....
32. CalGal - 1/27/2001 1:51:17 PM
Spawn signed up for trumpet of his own volition when he was in fourth grade. He has continued with it--even practicing, occasionally--to the point that he was first chair trumpet in a quite respectable school band as a seventh grader. When I pulled him out of public school his music teacher fortunately gave private lessons so we're continuing with him. There are a few marching band organizations around here--as well as one of the drum and bugle corps (the Vanguards). So we'll eventually sign him up for one of those. It's funny--Spawn has always been less than ideally behaved in school and sports--but in band, he was a leader and never got into any trouble.
As far as age goes, I think any age is appropriate to start, particularly if any interest is shown.
It's not that all talent or interest inevitably leads to fame and fortune, and I certainly don't think that kids should be pressured to perform. But it seems to me that children feel complimented if their parents notice a particular interest of theirs and gives them more opportunity to enjoy it. Also, it exposes them to a wider variety of teaching and learning methods.
33. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 1:55:13 PM
Why thank you Judith! I'll pass that along to the two of them!
34. arkymalarky - 1/27/2001 2:00:39 PM
Cal,
I'm just hoping it doesn't lead to wanting to be a band director. I'll bite my tongue, but I won't like it a speck.
"It's funny--Spawn has always been less than ideally behaved in school and sports--but in band, he was a leader and never got into any trouble."
A great director and band program can be one of the most rewarding things for a student to participate in at school. The main thing I don't like about the program where Mose is is that they have a mentality similar to that of athletics--live it and breathe it, and everything else is secondary. And most of the kids agree 100%.
35. Shannon - 1/27/2001 2:02:36 PM
I totally agree that it's very useful and valuable to be exposed to different methods of learning. I don't expect I'd have been very talented if I had received any kind of music lessons. But I think it would have been a worthwhile thing to learn anyway. I think you certainly are a better listener and appreciate music more if you've had some kind of music training.
Well, speaking of music, we've got symphony tickets tonight, and my mom is having the kids stay over. So we're going to go bring them out to her house shortly. Then we'll go floor-shopping before we have to meet our friends for dinner before the concert. Talk to y'all later.
36. mgleason - 1/27/2001 2:14:56 PM
Thanks for your good wishes in the other thread, Arky.
The opportunity to perform as a youngster is one of those things for which I'll always be eternally grateful. I don't play a musical instrument, but I sang in good choirs beginning in grade school, and also acted in many productions, both in school and in community threater. As an adult, those skills aided me tremendously when it came to public speaking and leading training seminars. The self-confidence that comes from knowing how to put something across is invaluable.
37. Uzmakk - 1/27/2001 2:45:37 PM
How does one wake a sleeping teenager who was out at a party past 1:00 last night?
Speak softly and address him as"Mr. teenager, sir."
38. labwabbit - 1/27/2001 2:48:00 PM
Looking forward to grand-parenting!
Son and wife have been married for three years...both professionals...doesn't look good anytime soon.
Daughter getting married in May...both professionals...
Damn! Wanted to be young enough to not just enjoy(spoil)them, but at least have a freakin chance to keep up with them.
39. bubbaette - 1/27/2001 3:16:48 PM
Damn! Wanted to be young enough to not just enjoy(spoil)them, but at least have a freakin chance to keep up with them.
I highly recommend being an aunt for just such reasons.
40. labwabbit - 1/27/2001 3:50:53 PM
I highly recommend being an aunt for just such reasons.
That would be a little tough for me. I don't think they would buy the "Auntie" title the first time I am caught wandering around the yard with no shirt on.
(Besides I look really terrible in a two piece) ;->
41. bubbaette - 1/27/2001 4:06:42 PM
Same principle being an uncle -- wind em up and send em home.
42. labwabbit - 1/27/2001 4:12:58 PM
Heh-heh.
Ya..you know what they say about payback...
I miss that ever since moving here though. (Thought it would be impossible to miss the screaming, destructive forces, but...) It sure is nice to get the snail-mail and email letters from many of them on a steady basis. Just not the same as playing the wise-old, slightly eccentric, uncle in person though.
43. Rosetta Stone - 1/28/2001 9:20:41 AM
Next question: How do you get girls to stop calling your house looking for oldest son? We have three lines and the phones are almost always active.
Like the women of mote, these females are horny, aggressive and say outragious things to attractive boys.
For example: On a speakerphone late one evening when the house was shutting down for the night, mother overheard one 10th-grader female flirting with son (who isn't interested in her, he claims) telling him what she was wearing.
Or, to be exact, what she wasn't wearing.
I blame a lot of this on cable's MTV programming, something that we have now dropped for the school year.
44. Erin R. - 1/28/2001 10:32:35 AM
I have a cute son, too, and as he gets older, I'm sure he'll only get cuter.
So I'll be listening in on this response.
45. CalGal - 1/28/2001 11:09:42 AM
It's odd how the conflicting portrayals teen girls as depressed, mopey, tragic heroines suffering from self-esteem and man-hungry whores regularly pop up in media and parenting books.
If my son were receiving calls from girls and saying, regularly, that he wasn't interested, I would inform him that I disliked liars, and I find it most unlikely that a straight teenage boy would not be interested in girls calling the house. If he truly is uninterested, then I'd tell him I'd expect him to tell the girl so in no uncertain terms and then any time she called the house again he would hang up on her. I would tell him to give me the names of the girl(s) so that I could make sure that he wasn't pestered, poor sweetie, and inform all callers with that name that my son couldn't stand them.
Since I suspect he would not want this and would say so, I would then kick his ass around for giving mixed messages. Most probably, he doesn't like the girl but does like the attention and is using the girl for attention in the same way that he will eventually try and use her for sex.
It is difficult to know how to address this, since I can hardly blame my kid for taking advantage of what is freely offered--even if I loathe the girls (and eventual women) who find this way of achieving status to be acceptable. But I will insist that it be properly presented: he's using them, and he won't be allowed to present himself as just a helpless victims of their "aggression". If he really dislikes it, I'll show him how to stop it. If he is using the girls, then I'll make damn sure he says so--and to the extent possible, I'll do my best to ensure that he learns how to choose for himself, rather than passively accept the attentions of those chicks who decide to pursue him.
46. CalGal - 1/28/2001 11:12:11 AM
Mind you, I find it incredibly improbable that Stone's son suffers from this problem--presumably, Stone copied his post from a Dear Abby.
47. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 11:14:58 AM
Some parenting questions/thoughts I have...
1) How important are we?
2) What are our goals and dreams for our children and how do they relate to how we parent?
3) Do we admit to ourselves what we really care about...our children surely find out no matter what we say.
4) Isn't it interesting that parenting strategies(eg authoritative, authoritarian, permissive) and techniques vary so widely, and that so many of us are convinced that we know what we are doing.
5) How does the intellectual component of parenting compare with the emotional.
6) Children have long memories for our mistakes, but seem to forgive easier than we do.
7) Our mistakes can make us better parents if we admit them to ourselves.
8) The talents of our children are right in front of us if we see their world thru eyes other than our own.
9) Do we really want our children to be independent...most parent-child conflict grows out of control issues.
10) Are we consistent about our "buttons", and do we have too few or too many?
110 Do we like our children...even when they are becoming (teens) and have become adults. They know the answer to this question.
48. Erin R. - 1/28/2001 11:18:36 AM
My brother is tall and handsome, and girls have always pursued him. But he has never pursued girls, and now he is with one of the silliest, childish women I have ever met. But then, he was pretty childish for most of his life, and has only started to grow up within the past year.
I hate to say this, but he can do better. I hope he dumps her.
49. Erin R. - 1/28/2001 11:24:26 AM
I want my son to use the gifts he so obviously has. Intelligence, an interest in music are so apparent even though he is only 16 months old. So I'll probably do some pushing.
The rest, I'll have to get back to you later.
50. ycmeehan - 1/28/2001 12:16:24 PM
How important are we?
IMHO, very important since relationship between parent and child is more than likely to promote certain attitudes on his part towards others.
51. joezan - 1/28/2001 12:34:44 PM
PP:
Good questions.
As far as parenting styles, I think the parents need to decide early (of course), and then be very consistent. But the choice cannot be arbitrary. You have to take your cues from your children -not from books, how you were raised, how you see your friends' relationships with their little monsters (or angels), etc.
Our older daughter has been very easy going from the start, and we have had absolutely no problems being permissive with her. She's never - not once - disappointed us. She's only 9, and will, of course, disappoint us in the future. The trick will be not over-reacting when that happens.
You always wonder, of course, if you are doing the right thing - raising them "correctly". Of all her accomplishments, small and large, though, the most affirming event my wife and I have experienced in this regard occurred a few weeks ago, when two kids on her bus failed to go straight home from the bus stop, not showing up till almost an hour later, which started a chain of events that threatened to be blown out of all proportion - newspapers and what-not. Apparently, these two had cooked up a story with several other kids which put the blame solely on the busdriver, a new driver who had unfortunately ditched the bus in a snow storm a week earlier, and so was an easy target.
The next day, the principal of the school called our house asking to speak to our daughter. Why our daughter?, my wife asked before agreeing. Because she is the most honest, sensible kid he knows, he replied, as if that should have been obvious.
52. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 1:01:43 PM
That is such a compliment not only to your daughter, Joezan, but to you and your wife.
I agree that the techniques of raising a child depend on so many variables, one can never know if they are doing it "right" at the time. The things I did in raising my son up to the age of 10 were drastically different than what I did thereafter because things had been changed...he was no longer an only child who was bright and precocious and fun-loving and daring but he was all those things and a kid with cancer.
The discipline problems with a child who is presumed to be dying are quite different from those of a kid who has his entire life ahead of him. Add to this a young mother who is practically insane from having to deal with this when prior to it, the only difficult decisions were shall we let him wear his hair longer and get him a motocross bike for his birthday? But you muddle through and science is kind and he is suddenly a grown man and a wonderfully normal one at that.
Psych Prof, I think your questions were great and gave us all food for thought.
53. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 1:17:39 PM
Judith,
Your posts on your son, especially coming through it all and looking back, offer a great perspective. I'm so glad things worked out the way they did.
We went to the all-region concert yesterday. Mose was in 2nd band and her b/f was in 1st band, and Bob noted how nice it was that both of them had all of their grandparents healthy and in attendance. Kind of nice to see sort of a chain of parenting at work there. Afterward we went to b/f's house and had a great time with both his sets of grandparents, and as always, his mother cooked a great meal then sent us home with a dish of schnitzel and rice.
54. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 1:37:12 PM
Arky:
Thanks...I think I told you about finding my journal from that time recently and how surprizing it was to read through it. I do feel lucky, both for how things turned out for him and that I have retained what amount of sanity I have !
(did you get my e-mail yesterday about the dates?)
55. cmboyce - 1/28/2001 1:46:57 PM
A very nice thread here. As PP observes, it is very interesting (and thought-provoking) to see the different styles of parenting that people display.
My own child, a daughter whom I may as well refer to as Eve, as she began a new world for me, is now 9, in 4th grade and beginning, under the influence of MTV et al, to take on, with definite intent, what she sees as "teen-age" affectations, most of which involve "looking sexy" (though she is still reluctant to acknowledge sex). This is somewhat distressing, but I keep a light hand on the situation (as I do on most), occasionally remarking on the fraudulent, market-oriented way that the stuff is presented to her. My general intention is to be seen to be on top of the scene but not regulating her behavior unless and until I think I see something dangerous, physically and morally, and then tell her why I think so, and legislating as little as possible (though of course we have school-night bedtimes, and homework before TV regs, etc). I've always done this with more childish matters, like eating habits and crossing streets, etc, and she's always been happy to think and take an intelligent course of action. So far so good, in other words.
56. cmboyce - 1/28/2001 1:47:11 PM
I respond of course to my own upbringing, which, while not inhumane at all, was badly screwed up, in the weird combination of both spoiling and over-disciplining. The son of two very young parents (for their scene anyway; 24 & 20) who had never lived on their own before marriage, I was to some extent a spoiled-rich-kid type kid, but I was also raised in good part by rigid, formalist forces—namely, frozen in time, all-boy, all-elite-driven schools, and a most unfortunate Victorian-style nanny. Naturally or not (for many of my cohort simply became the bond salesmen they were expected to become), I became a neurotic and unhappy teen, until about the age of 35, when I was finally able to make my own life.
So that informs my essentially permissive parenting style (though the old world reappears in what I think is (ironically) a salubrious way, in a tendency to watch very carefully and worry, perhaps too much). Anyway, the two things I want to do are, 1) let her lead, and 2) in making sure she doesn't walk over any cliffs, try to be persuasive rather than demanding. One thing I hope this policy may lead to is that if my worry-wart old-fart persona takes over at some point, and I flatly refuse something—as I feel certain I'll have to do at some point—in terms more suited to my old world than her new one, that she'll be impressed enough by the display to rethink whatever the issue is, on the grounds that having never denied her about much else, this must be a big deal indeed, etc.
57. cmboyce - 1/28/2001 1:49:24 PM
Juditha, you indeed deserve congratulations, both on good fortune (the outcome) and, it seems, on your capacity to deal well with bad.
58. cmboyce - 1/28/2001 1:51:00 PM
Rosetta, I'd be inclined to say that if there's nothing special happening, there's no reason to get the kid up at all. Let him sleep, what do you care?
59. CalGal - 1/28/2001 1:52:17 PM
Judith,
Your story, as always, reminds me how very much of my parenting decisions are premised on the great good fortune I have in having a healthy child. And I then take a moment to thank genes and luck, along with any particular god(s) and the cosmos, for that fortune.
60. cmboyce - 1/28/2001 1:52:40 PM
Arky, your kids sound great (as does your parenting style, imo). (BTW, does "schnitzel" mean, in definition, "breaded veal cutlets"?)
61. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 1:57:16 PM
Judith...difficult for me to put in words the respect I have for you.
62. cmboyce - 1/28/2001 1:58:27 PM
Cal, I agree with your #59, enthusiastically. My most important piece of parental "preaching"—almost the only one, really—is that ingratitude for our remarkable good fortune, in being a healthy happy family in relatively care-free circumstances—constitutes a potentially disastrous moral error. Disastrous to one's own mental health, I mean, more or less. (And, too, inattention can lose these gifts from the cosmos.)
63. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 1:59:49 PM
I think I would have been a terrible parent of an only child. Having 5 kids, very close in age, made the task of parenting very much easier in some respects. They provided a lot of company and stimulation for each other which I would have found difficult to provide.
My style was largely "hands off". The kids essentially set their own boundaries and I was perhaps fortunate that we were all comfortable with the limits they set for themselves. They're all adults now and I can honestly say that during their childhood and teenage years I never worried for one moment about what they might be doing, since I never expected them to be doing anything that I needed to be worried about, and that turned out to be the case.
64. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 2:01:52 PM
Judith,
You have my great admiration.
65. cmboyce - 1/28/2001 2:10:39 PM
Ah, SnowOwl, the consummation devoutly to be wished...! Congrats.
66. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2001 2:15:01 PM
SnowOwl
I'm supposed to do a write-up on the connection between economics and the number of children. I won't bore you with the details. Why did you decide to have as many as five kids? How would you describe the underlying cost/benefit analysis (there is always one)?
This is nosey - no problems if you don't answer.
67. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 2:20:42 PM
Thank you all for your nice words...I think you'd all be surprised at what you are able to do when you have no choice but to do it, though.
68. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 2:21:36 PM
69. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 2:43:41 PM
Thanks CM! I only have one, though. The other's her boyfriend. I'm flawed as a parent, no doubt, and there are things about my personality that aren't very conducive to parenting; but Mose has turned out well in spite of me, and I do love her dearly. I, like most parents--including mine, I try to remember--do the best I can. Her dad is great, and that helps a bunch.
As for schnitzel (assuming I'm spelling it right) in this case is pork tenderloin filled with ham, lightly breaded, and cooked in a mushroom gravy, served with rice.
Judith,
I remember you telling me about the journal, and I think it's fascinating how it was gone so long and reappeared like it did. If you had found it ten or fifteen years earlier, would the effect of reading it have been the same, I wonder?
And I did get your email. I'll get back with you on specifics, but the end of Feb looks best for us at the moment, if it's good for y'all.
As far as boundaries, etc, I have one main concern about Mose now that she's a teen besides her general health, accidents, etc, and that's driving. Of all the kids I've taught, that by far has been the most dangerous activity (occasionally combined with drugs and alcohol--I can only think of two instances offhand--but also very often not), and where we live it makes me particularly nervous. The big question is when is she really ready, and I don't feel good about it right now. Her b/f, thank goodness, is an excellent driver.
70. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 2:51:40 PM
Arky:
Remember what Keoni said when Bob asked him what age he thought was good for teenagers to start driving? "Never"
I can understand your concerns quite well after driving those roads for a couple of days. And kids feel so invincible behind the wheel. But Mose is sensible and she has good role models...
71. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 2:53:09 PM
Pelle,
I'm not sure there was any real decision involved. I come from a fairly small family myself. I have 2 sisters, but the youngest is the same age as my oldest son so essentially I grew up with only one sister. My husband is one of 7 and he was not keen on having a large family himself. I saw only advantages in having a lot of kids while he saw only disadvantages. In the end we compromised. I wanted more than we had, he wanted fewer.
Having so many kids has kept us poor. Although none of them has been demanding in terms of wanting material possessions there is a cost in simply raising them. They have all been to University and continued on to higher degrees (apart from one). This means that they've remained at home for longer than they would have done had they simply left school and begun work, or even finished Uni after completing a bachelors degree. While they've been largely self-supporting in terms of paying for their own scholastic costs the fact that they remained at home as young adults has certainly been a drain on our limited family resources.
If we had not had such a big family we wouldn't have remained living where we are. Our area is fairly depressed and there's not much opportunity for young people here. My husband was at sea for much of the kids' growing up and we could have lived anywhere during that period. However, the logistics of moving them all rather put me off, together with the fact that there were educational benefits to remaining where we are. Our city is renowned for its schools and its University. If we'd moved it might have been more difficult for the kids to get the same excellent educational opportunities they had here. Moving elsewhere now would provide my husband with more business opportunities but the cost is prohibitive. What we would get for our house if we sold it would not even pay the deposit on a house in more populated northern centres.
72. cmboyce - 1/28/2001 2:53:32 PM
One of the many benefits of raising a kid in Manhattan is, no teen driving worries.
73. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 2:57:53 PM
Arky,
One of the things which surprised me about my kids was that they never showed any interest in driving. Even now only 2 of them have licences. It's been relatively easy for them here, as we live in a very small city with a reasonable public transport system although mostly they've always walked everywhere.
74. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 2:59:14 PM
"But Mose is sensible and she has good role models..."
Heh heh. You didn't ever ride in a vehicle with me driving while y'all were here, did you?
Seriously, it's the experience. She needs to be driving more with us in the car, but she drives by herself in town all the time. She keeps her car at my parents' house.
75. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 3:03:19 PM
Snow,
(Very interesting posts, btw)
We live 15 miles from town and currently our daily commute totals about 100 miles per day, so driving for her is a necessity. She's not really interested in it either, and that's a big part of the problem, because she's not practicing enough for me to feel comfortable with her driving alone.
76. CalGal - 1/28/2001 3:03:50 PM
My ex informed me that I was not allowed to teach Spawn to drive. I responded that, unfortunately, I probably already had. Spawn thinks my driving is a hoot.
An interesting dynamic on teen driving--there is little doubt that it is one of the most dangerous activities a teen can do. There are all sorts of restrictions proposed on teen driving these days, at least in California--they can only drive certain hours, to and from work, etc. All almost completely unworkable. These ideas have a fair amount of popular support.
But there is no support for what would seem to be the obvious solution--up the driving age to 18. Why? Parental convenience.
77. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 3:03:54 PM
That is the commute which involves going the opposite direction from where we work to take her to school and pick her up every day.
78. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 3:08:31 PM
That is a real problems, arky. I'm not sure how I would have felt if my kids had wanted to drive. I wouldn't have stopped them, obviously, but I would never have been comfortable with it. Even now I detest being a passenger in a car. It's a control issue with me, I hate feeling that I'm at the mercy of somebody else.
Since it is important that your daughter does drive though I guess there's nothing you can do but encourage her to practise so you feel more comfortable about her driving long distances by herself.
79. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 3:10:11 PM
I agree, Cal, in fact here kids can get a "hardship" license fairly easily as soon as they turn 15. Of course in the towns and in the country a number of kids have been driving since way younger than that.
One of the worst tragedies in my little world involved a 13 year old who had been driving by herself some, left in the car, and head-on collided with a truck with a teen she knew, the report being that one or both vehicles were acting crazy and playing "chicken" in the middle of the afternoon on an isolated road. She had passengers who were thrown from the vehicle, but for her it was instant death. She was an only child, and the devastation her family suffered was very hard to witness, and it was too late and pointlessly cruel to state the obvious.
80. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 3:12:06 PM
"Even now I detest being a passenger in a car. It's a control issue with me, I hate feeling that I'm at the mercy of somebody else."
You sound exactly like Bob.
81. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 3:12:49 PM
It was an absolute that my sons drive, drive early, and drive well. Their activites, at 16 and following, made that the case. It was scarie, and I sat up many a night waiting for the lights in the driveway.
82. CalGal - 1/28/2001 3:14:35 PM
PP asked about control. I don't think there is any doubt that many parental/kid conflicts involve control. This has never been one of my particular hot buttons--temper and consistency remain the parental problems that plague me.
I have found that giving my son a great deal of authority and autonomy (which is the flip side of giving up control) has allowed him to use his creativity in ways that I hadn't expected. He also quite often solves unexpected problems independently even when he shouldn't--there are many times when the answer to a particular problem was "Call Mom or Dad" but he will instead solve it himself and put a lot of pressure on himself in the event that his solution has problems. And of course, his independence has resulted in a different set of priorities--he decided that schoolwork wasn't all that important, for example, and got the chain very firmly yanked.
I have never been a lax parent, but I have found that while I could rely on his decision-making priorities as a 9 and 10 year old, I actually have to pull back on the relative scope of his autonomy now that he is a teenager. It's not a matter of control, it's just that there are so many more opportunities, so much more temptation, so much less reward for doing the right thing.
As a result, giving Spawn the same authority over his own life that he'd had at an earlier age produced some real problems that we are now in the process of fixing. He is understanding (as are we) that we have to give him less control until he can prove that he's capable of the far greater responsibility involved in just being a teenager. It has been an interesting lesson, albeit a stressful one.
83. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 3:19:34 PM
PP,
Yes, that's a big part of it too. When kids are involved in practices, ballgames, etc, it's hard to juggle schedules to get them where they need to be. I used to hate to get home after working all day, then have to turn right around and go to town for something Mose had to be there for, say at 5:00 until 7:00, and have no place in town to roost besides my parents'. I love them, but after working all day I just want to be home, but there's not enough time to go home and relax and then drive back, and we'd always have to eat out.... We could have lived in town, I guess, but we love where we are and we're the third generation here, and it seems crazy to trade a few years of inconvenience for a lifetime of living where you don't want to be.
84. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 3:24:21 PM
"As a result, giving Spawn the same authority over his own life that he'd had at an earlier age produced some real problems that we are now in the process of fixing. He is understanding (as are we) that we have to give him less control until he can prove that he's capable of the far greater responsibility involved in just being a teenager. It has been an interesting lesson, albeit a stressful one."
And it seems to hit fairly suddenly, catching you off-guard when you've gotten used to things being a certain way. Not enough can be said, imo, about that strange transition period between childhood and teenage.
85. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 3:25:29 PM
Arky...more than that to me. At 16, no more than two years were available to prepare for the leaving of home. I always knew that once my boys heard the siren of the world, they would be off and running. I saw it as my job to prepare them best I could. We talk everyday on the phone, but they have now left the nest as I knew they would...
86. arkymalarky - 1/28/2001 3:27:56 PM
Very true.
87. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 3:32:42 PM
Quite so...if they had to return to their bedroom after college, they told me they would die. I see them at least once a month, but it is not enough for me or MsPP. Thank God for the cell phone and liberal corporate policy regarding such...we have a personal sprint number that usetabe outa sight.
88. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 3:38:36 PM
One(22) lives in Manhatten...maybe he and CMBoyce, with much in common, can share a brew somtime.
89. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2001 3:39:23 PM
SnowOwl
Thank you very much. Economics is a heartless science. It looks at the decision to have children in two ways. The first is as a form of consumtion. Because having children has a cost the family must cut down on other items of consumption. This was clearly your choice. The second is as investment, when the family needs the children first as labour and then as an old-age insurance. This is moot in the West but still valid in many developing countries.
The time for your trip to Sweden draws near. Are you going to spend any time in Stockholm? What about meeting for a beer or something?
90. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 3:42:50 PM
One of the things I found interesting about my family was the difference in the length of childhood experienced by my kids, when compared with mine and my husband's.
We were both raised in working-class homes. The expectation amongst our peer groups was that we would all leave school and begin work as soon as we were able. Therefore, when I began high school I knew I was only going to be there for 3 years, until I reached school leaving age. High school for me was just a fill-in until I could start work. Once I was working and earning an adult wage (at 15), I became completely autonomous. I could leave home whenever I wanted to, I was not reliant on my parents for anything.
In contrast, my kids always assumed that they would stay at school and attend University. School for them was preparatory to further education. As as result they remained financially dependent on us for a lot longer than we did on our parents.
This is all a rather garbled way of saying that I think young people today have an extended childhood compared to what some (most??) of us experienced in the past, and this might contribute to the tensions that some families experience, when kids begin to extend their wings in a setting where parents still feel as though they should have total control.
91. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 3:46:18 PM
Snowowl...that problem can be minimized by not using money as a controling agent...the giving of financial assistance can be a gift with no strings attached.
92. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 3:50:22 PM
Pelle,
The idea of kids as labour is not quite so moot in the west as you might think. My husband was expected to leave school and begin contributing to the family finances, despite being "tagged" by the school as scholarship material and a person who could go on to do very well at Uni.
I am, of course, hoping that my kids will keep me in my old age. So far I'm not doing very well on that score. I'm still keeping 3 of them, and old age is rapidly advancing towards me.
I'd love to have a beer with you. We're not in Stockholm for long, but I should be able to arrange a meeting at a mutually convenient time. I'll e you and we'll see if we can organise something.
93. concerned - 1/28/2001 3:52:21 PM
Re.90 -
Where could a '15 year old' get an adult wage (meaning non-minimum)? When I was trying to find work during high school, minimum wage was all I could find, unless I wanted to sign up for a union, which I wasn't interested in because I definitely intended to go to college.
94. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 3:53:43 PM
PP,
I agree, but I don't think that's the case in a lot of families. I know too many who believe that while they control the purse-strings they also control the recipients.
95. PsychProf - 1/28/2001 3:55:05 PM
Snowowl...the price of such control is very high.
96. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 3:56:18 PM
I'm not an American, concerned. I also suspect I'm a lot older than you. In my country we did not have such a thing as a "youth" wage. Any worker doing a particular job was paid the going rate for that job. Unfortunately, the world has caught up with us and we now do have youth wages and the like. This has led to a host of problems but this is not the thread to discuss them.
97. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2001 4:08:54 PM
SnowOwl
Excellent. I'm pretty much in control of my working hours from lunchtime onwards so there shouldn't be any difficulties.
98. SnowOwl - 1/28/2001 4:11:02 PM
I can't see your e address anywhere, Pelle. You can reach me at moonbeam@es.co.nz if you like.
99. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 4:16:52 PM
Off topic: Isn't the Internet great? What are the odds that 2 people from opposite ends of the earth can plan to have a drink together after conversing back and forth for a year or so and plan it in a matter of minutes like this?
I'm in awe of how this medium has opened part of the world to me and introduced me to so many interesting people in that world...
100. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2001 4:18:15 PM
SnowOwl
What, what, what? I'm on the e-mail list available in the Cafe. But to save you the trouble click here.
101. concerned - 1/28/2001 4:18:40 PM
When is everybody going to get broadband, or better yet, fiber to the curb? That's when I'll start being 'impressed'. Off topic, but....
102. JudithAtHome - 1/28/2001 4:21:58 PM
Concerned:
You're impressed with the technical, I with the personal...takes both kinds. :-)
103. PelleNilsson - 1/28/2001 4:34:44 PM
Judith
I agree completely.
104. jonesatlaw - 1/28/2001 5:40:25 PM
What a great thread! So much to say but much is already said better than I could.
On driving though, I would offer my mother's example. One of her finest moments as a parent was taking me out when I was 15 on a saturday afternoon to a local school parking lot during the a snow storm. She had me drive in the snow across the huge lot, telling me to get the car up to 25 mph. Then she had me stop as fast as I could. I slid all over hell's half-acre. She then told me to modulate the brake so as not to lock up the front wheels. We repeated the process several times until I could stop in a relatively straight line. She also had me try to accelerate as fast as I could on the snow and ice, and taught me to steer out of a skid. Finally she had me try to drive through around corners in the parking lot without skidding. Mind you I had not been out on the road more than 3 or 4 times on dry pavement before this. It was scary going into that first skid and I always respected road conditions when I was a teen driver thereafter (still do). Finally I should let you know that my mother is one of the worst white knuckle drivers and "co-pilots" in the world. Yet she remained very calm during our lesson. Afterwards she had a bit more confidence in my driving and judgment. I certainly had a lesson that they only talk about in driver's ed. I heartily reccomend this lesson, as the same things you do in snow are what you need to remember in skids on dry pavement and it is in effect a slow motion lesson in emergency manuevering. Mom certainly rose to the occaision. Dad later taught me how to drive on gravel and mud, and bootlegger turns, but much later. Mom still doesn't know about the handbrake turns.
105. jonesatlaw - 1/28/2001 5:42:30 PM
I didn't mention it, but the parking lot was absolutely empty. Important detail.
106. Uzmakk - 1/28/2001 7:51:27 PM
I have just read most of this thread. Very enjoyable. Look forward to putting in my two cents soon.
107. labwabbit - 1/29/2001 1:19:15 PM
When all has been said and done, and when looking back at all the "events" or "non-events" that occurred with respect to driving, education, and parenting...we realize,(evermore so everyday that passes), how extremely fortunate we were. Although it wasn't apparent at all as young parents, we are truly amazed now at how much faith we had in the next day. And as a result did not lose our sanity over how many things could have gone wrong in an instant that could have changed everything.
108. MsIvoryTower - 1/29/2001 2:49:53 PM
This is a good thread to find upon returning to "the fray" a/k/a the mote.
With respect to sleeping issues; my daughter, now 13, is free to sleep as long as she likes on the weekends. I simply cannot get worked up about this issue. Perhaps that's because I'm a single parent, and one of my mottos is to pick and choose my battles very carefully.
However, there has been a fairly noticable change in her over the last year, as she's officially entered the teen years. She's less willing to share all her thoughts, is frequently more pensive, and has noticable mood swings (where she gets angry at friends and then not, etc.).
It should be an interesting next few years.
But when she eventually leaves the nest....
ah, that will be a hard day, I know.
109. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 2:55:04 PM
Well Missie...I am told that all paths lead back to where they started...with planes, trains, and cell phones we will survive...most of the seniors I teach go home after they graduate, in any case. Good to see you here...
110. MsIvoryTower - 1/29/2001 2:57:50 PM
PP
Yes, I expect she'll be back for many years after leaving the nest, but as you said in an earlier post, it isn't the same. Still, raising a child to be independent, confident and capable is the what we aspire to, isn't it.
A child well raised is a painful joy.
111. cmboyce - 1/29/2001 3:04:50 PM
PP, I'd be delighted to meet your son, and, of course, you. Perhaps some time when you're down for a visit...
112. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 3:05:52 PM
CM...good.
113. labwabbit - 1/29/2001 3:06:53 PM
A child well raised is a painful joy
No better proof of the truth in those words, than saying I hear that and really understanding it.
114. cmboyce - 1/29/2001 3:08:28 PM
jonesatlaw, great driving lesson! Great mother! (And is a bootlegger turn the same as a handbrake turn, where one turns 180 degrees, at speed? And how do you do it?)
(Motie parents: Regard this as on topic in the sense that most of us, unlike Jones' father, would not dream of instructing a teenage boy in this matter. (Compare and contrast.))
115. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2001 3:11:16 PM
cm
Start the turn. Pull the handbrake. Great fun. But to achieve exactly 180 degrees required practice, in particular on ice. Easier on gravel.
116. janjon - 1/29/2001 3:11:48 PM
Too soon to tell, but I think having a child (our oldest, girl now 14) go off to boarding school will help in terms of the ultimate empty nest syndrome. Even though both my wife and I had done it, we saw or remembered the separation from the child's point of view, not the parents'. We thus thought we were able to help prepare our daughter for the beginning homesickness, even possibly the feeling of abandonment (even though our daughter had pushed to go away for school.) We weren't really prepared for our own feelings of loss.
What I find most troublesome is the feeling that we will indeed be missing more than we want of her most complex growing up years and that as a consequence we won't be able to be of as much help etc. So far, none of that seems to be coming true, in part because of the modern boarding school schedules - the kids are home a lot more often and for longer periods.
At any rate, she has adjusted well and loves school. And, our son (five years younger) seems to be thriving due perhaps to the more or less undivided attention he now receives.
117. theDiva - 1/29/2001 3:34:49 PM
jan
I've never known anyone who's sent his child to boarding school...well, wait, Dusty's son goes to one...anyway, do you mind if I ask, what do you see as the advantage to your daughter going away for high school? Did you and your wife decide to do it simply because you'd both been, or was something else driving the decision? IAC, I can imagine that it was very painful to adjust to her absence.
118. CalGal - 1/29/2001 3:42:59 PM
I mean no offense to anyone when I say I would keel over dead before I would send Spawn away to school and stay put. If it was clearly going to do him worlds of good, then I would move closer. Part of it is because I do have so few years left with him as a child before he goes off to be his independent self, and I don't want to lose any of those years. But part of it is also what JanJon mentions--if you aren't around, do you have the same opportunity to share in their life?
Jones,
I already teach Spawn about turning into a skid and not to use the brakes suddenly--something that he has seen me do more than once. I reinforce quite often the fact that braking is rarely the best thing to do and almost never is it the only thing to do. I like the idea of taking him to a parking lot in the rain.
119. janjon - 1/29/2001 3:46:47 PM
Diva - it was a complex number of reasons and I am sure that even trying to articulate or rank them will end up being somewhat distorting. Certainly we would not have done it (even though both my wife and I had ended up enjoying our own experiences) if our daughter hadn't been so emphatic that she wanted to. Part of that certainly stemmed from our decision to move back to the City. She knew that that would mean one of the private day schools here in the City with a whole new set of friends, etc. She also, by osmosis more than our having been emphatic or purposeful about it, had obviously picked up on the fact that her mother and I had enjoyed it. Also, a number of her friends - both where we then lived and through other circles - were going on to boarding school (although none are in fact at hers), so it didn't seem like such an alien thing to her.
We really didn't want to do it, for our own concerns and desires not to miss out on these years. But, just like we each had and continued to have with our own parents, our relationship with our daughter was (and is - subject to the teenage bumps and occasional theatrics) a good one.
Who in hell knows what age 15 and up will bring. Right now, it all looks like it was a good decision by and for all - including, as I said above, for our nine year old son who is finally beginning to snap out of his prolonged "dreamy" phase.
120. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2001 3:56:22 PM
CalGal
Don't be offended. Have you thought the thought that Spawn may not become independent?
121. CalGal - 1/29/2001 3:59:21 PM
Spawn already is independent. I'm not a clingy mother, and raising a child who is capable of going off into the world and being his own person is, after all, much of the point.
Janjon,
Moves during the teen years are tough.
122. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:01:58 PM
As I said before, most of the seniors I teach in college report to me that they will go home after graduation, try to live in the town or general area they are from, and wish to be close to their parents/home. They indicate their mother will help raise their children...and they are quite sure of this path.
123. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:04:35 PM
PsychProf. That seems like a remarkably parochial attitude those seniors have (especially to the point of already believing that their mothers will help raise their own children). I would have thought the desire to stretch one's wings would be a lot more prevalent.
124. CalGal - 1/29/2001 4:06:58 PM
My kid better not expect me to help raise his kids. Give me a break. What a bunch of sexist slobs you've taught, Prof.
125. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:07:18 PM
Jan
Interesting. Basically she's grown up in a home where it's an accepted part of life, so she expects and accepts that it will be so for her. Yes?
Prof
Now that is amazing, especially since so many women of mother's generation (i.e., dames only a bit older than I) work outside the home. Or is this a socio-economic class different than the one in which I live?
126. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:07:37 PM
JanJon...me too. It is even worse than I am saying...last week I asked my Intro students(mostly freshman) how many wished to live and work in the town they "grew up" in....over eighty percent said they did.
127. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:09:13 PM
Deev...these are middle/upper middle class students...75% women.
128. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:11:45 PM
My God. I understand the desire to be near home, now, but at that age I wanted and fully intended to cut the strings and be well and truly out on my own with no help whatsoever from my folks. It was what they expected of us.
129. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:12:02 PM
Diva. Yes, I think that is definitely a large part of it. It certainly wasn't seen by her as any form of "punishment" or rejection. And, although she already was rather independent in many ways (she is a self-starter and if anything obsessed a bit too much about being timely in homework, etc.), we can see that being away has attenuated that. (I am very glad, however, that we have a ritual of talking with her at least every other day. I also am glad that - unlike when I was away - the schools encourage this. I also am glad that her school is now co-ed. I am glad about a lot of things.)
130. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:13:03 PM
So overall it's been positive...that's great. How far away is she?
131. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:14:50 PM
about 5-6 hours, depending.
132. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 4:15:08 PM
PP:
Are these students implying their mothers will care for their children while they and their spouses work or that they are going to end up single parents whose moms will take over?
133. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:16:18 PM
PsychProf - are these kids who for the most part come from families where the parents didn't go away to college? Are these kids who are going to go on to graduate school?
134. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:19:26 PM
Judith...they all assume only others get divorced. Their mother/parents will care for their child while they and their spouse work. Some say they will be rich and just stay home, while others indicate they will hire a "Nannie" or have a "friend" sit with the kids. Very few say they will do it themseves, make whatever sacrifice is needed, or use Day Care. They are generally pissed at me for even asking.
135. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:20:31 PM
BTW, I ask in the context of the Child Development section of Intro, not at the personal level. They are free to say nothing.
136. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:20:32 PM
Jan
Wow. I have to say, I admire parents who are able to let go in this way. It has always been a struggle for me...perhaps because she has been my only. It drives her crazy, too...I find it hard to send her on a field trip without me as chaperone. Nuts, I know. I have tried to pull back as much as possible, not wanting her to become clingy or dependent, and I think we've done fairly well. She is a fearless and feisty little thing.
137. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:21:41 PM
Prof
Astonishing, the shift in attitudes. I wonder why they don't see themselves as doing their own childrearing. How very odd.
138. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:22:18 PM
JanJon...some are first gen college students, some aren't...since most graduate schools cost bucks, living at home is the option of choice.
139. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 4:22:31 PM
PP:
Very few say they will do it themseves, make whatever sacrifice is needed, or use Day Care. They are generally pissed at me for even asking.
I don't care if these are college students...they are idiots.
140. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:25:49 PM
Diva - the thought that it would end up being helpful for our son (which so far it has) didn't hurt. Also, peeling the grape a bit more, my wife/their mother has a very demanding career and travels often. In short, the kids are used to having neither of us there from time to time, or one or the other of us gone. Multitasking could have been invented in our household.
141. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:27:04 PM
So your son is away at school as well?
142. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:27:08 PM
Judith...my job is to get them to think about what they say...frankly, they have other events on their mind, and I understand that. But...they can drink and fuck on their own time...my class is for "cogitatin".
143. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:33:17 PM
I have thought for a while now that ages 18-22 are now a hell of a lot younger than used to be, if you know what I mean. My unmarried niece/goddaughter, age 20, had a baby in September and last week gave him up for adoption, saying it was 'too hard' (this despite living with her mother and having that support available to her)...I think of Greg's mom with three in diapers at age 20, my former mother-in-law ditto, my mother at 22 with me, and I just wonder (of course all three were married, but that generation, the fathers basically brought home the $$ and that was it.) I am not condemning Nikki for her decision because quite frankly I think the baby will have a better life now, but I feel so sad....
144. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:33:55 PM
wait, FOUR in diapers at age 21. Lordy, lordy, Rosie.
145. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:34:03 PM
Diva. Oh no. He's only nine. Have no idea whether he will want or be ready to go off to school in, say, four years. It may just be the predictable difference between girls and boys (talking about generalities!) but he is much less mature/more visibly needing of support and care than his sister was at the same age.
At any rate, we deliberately picked a school for him here in the City that goes through 12th grade instead of one that ends at the 8th or 9th.
146. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:35:23 PM
Oh, okay. Isn't it funny, how sibs can be so different from one another?
147. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 4:38:45 PM
Diva:
I had my son one month shy of my 19th birthday...I agree with you.
148. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:41:30 PM
Thing is, Judith, I even think that applies to my own generation to a certain extent. I had Gracie at 27 and I still had a lot of growing up to do...I know for certain theDiva at 21 would not have been ready for motherhood.
149. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 4:43:17 PM
Diva:
I know for certain I wasn't ready but I got that way pretty quickly. Luckily, my mom was nearby and helped me tremendously.
150. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2001 4:43:53 PM
I spoke to a colleague of mine today. His daughter, 16, has been accepted for a scholarship and will go to New Zealand for a year. He was quite happy about it and saw it as a great opportunity for her to develop her independence.
151. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:45:52 PM
Hmmm...that's the thing about parenting. You're never really 100% ready, for what else can prepare you but doing it? I suppose what I mean is there are certain levels of maturity you may achieve which make it less difficult (as opposed to easier). I think as with any significant emotional event, it can make you a better person.
152. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:46:41 PM
Judith. I find more compelling that that means you had to cope with your son/only child having what you feared was terminal cancer when you were only 29.
153. CalGal - 1/29/2001 4:46:56 PM
That assumes that going away is the only way to develop independence, which is hardly true. I hope that Spawn is independent without requiring it.
I don't know how I'd feel about a year away, but my feelings about it are different than boarding school.
154. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:47:06 PM
Pelle
gasp
Halfway around the globe. I would die. She's talking about going to UVA, which is in Charlottesville and two hours away, and already I'm hyperventilating.
155. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:48:16 PM
Jan
Yes. My admiration for Judith....I cannot express.
156. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:49:46 PM
Well, I had fun with my teenage sons...we hung out.
157. CalGal - 1/29/2001 4:51:03 PM
I had Spawn right before I turned 26, and what is interesting is that I have to go back four generations to find a *-grandmother who had a child at a younger age than me.
My mother, sister, grandmother, and great-grandmother all had their first child at 27 or older.
158. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:51:19 PM
We have concluded that you never can be totally prepared for parenting and that indeed it inevitably takes unexpected turns and lurches.
Anyone else of the same view as we - there are innumerable guides/classes/organized support systems out there to help you HAVE the baby, but damned few of same for what to do thereafter?
159. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:52:31 PM
Prof
ha! Oh yes. Gracie and I were sitting there Friday night watching something or other, kibitzing, laughing and snacking and I thought 'This is really the best ever. This kid is my bud.' Such an indescribably wonderful feeling
160. PsychProf - 1/29/2001 4:52:47 PM
Vodka and coffee...see ya guys.
161. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:54:24 PM
Jan
Oh, definitely less. For how can you quantify and instruct on something that has an infinite number of situations, variables, etc. I think if you're lucky you have a good support system, a strong relationship with your own parents, and some experienced buds with terrific grown kids (nod to PP) who can tell you how they did it.
162. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:55:06 PM
I agree that you don't have to go away to become independent. We would never have done it with our daughter if we hadn't thought that she already had a healthy degree of independence. And, one of the arguments that we used with her to try to get her to change her mind was our own view that in many ways she could be even more independent and learn/experience more by going to day school here in the City.
163. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:55:07 PM
see ya Prof!
Speaking of childbirth, and as an aside, our Lamaze instructor recommended we take Gracie into the L&D room for the birth. Loopy.
164. PelleNilsson - 1/29/2001 4:55:54 PM
CalGal
I don't want to quarrel with you. This is my experience. When I was 18 I thought I was independent. I had quarrelled a lot with my mother about this (my parents were divorced, I hated my stepfather). She let go of the reins when I was 16. But she was still there when I had problems (even if we quarreled over them). It was not until I did my National Service that I did become truly independent. There I had to tackle my problems alone.
165. CalGal - 1/29/2001 4:56:27 PM
Yes, I agree that there is less in the way of support for parents, but I don't see any need for it, either.
I would rather there were a lot clearer laws for parenting, though. More absolutes on safety, for example.
166. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:56:34 PM
That is carrying togetherness a bit far, in my opinion, Diva.
167. theDiva - 1/29/2001 4:57:25 PM
Isn't that insane? How inappropriate. And she was very insistent, too!
168. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 4:57:37 PM
janjon:
I was 29 and had a fairly charmed life of ease...then, I grew up in about 2 weeks time. Looking back, I see it was like a crucible and I came out the other side hardened and changed but it all worked out for the best.
I take nothing for granted today, that's for sure.
169. janjon - 1/29/2001 4:58:59 PM
This may be too personal, but how many years did it take before you could relax even a bit and conclude that your son had made it?
170. CalGal - 1/29/2001 4:59:25 PM
Pelle,
I didn't see you as quarreling. I was just pointing out that there is no one critical experience that ensures kids will be independent. It is a function of parenting and, to some extent, the personality of the kid in question.
Deev,
My stepdaughter not only was in the room when Spawn was born, she cut the cord. She had just turned 11.
171. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 5:00:31 PM
Diva:
Our friends had their baby girl at home a few months ago and their 5 year son was there for it...they are happy with the result.
172. theDiva - 1/29/2001 5:02:53 PM
Cal
You have a stepdaughter?! I had no idea.
I have a friend who had numbers three, four and five of six at home, with the others in attendance...apparently it was a positive experience for all concerned, and I think that's great. Just can't see it working for me and mine, though.
173. janjon - 1/29/2001 5:03:15 PM
In terms of support for parents, I suppose I was focusing on the infancy stage - those feelings of helplessness, anger, guilt over those times when you are being angry at the baby, the first time you want to throw it against the wall, etc.
174. theDiva - 1/29/2001 5:04:55 PM
oh God, and colic....colic.....shudder
I'm hoping this baby will be an easy one to make up for the rough pregnancy I've had.
Anywho, gotta run. Later, y'all.
175. CalGal - 1/29/2001 5:05:00 PM
Deev,
My ex has a 24 year old daughter. She lived with us fully half-time for all of our time living together (married or no).
Jan,
I never wanted to throw Spawn against the wall. In any event, though, I think the ones that actually do throw their kids against the wall or hurt them are not those that will be helped by a support group.
176. janjon - 1/29/2001 5:10:28 PM
Not thinking about support groups, per se, although I can see situations where that might be helpful. More about having sources to learn/be reassured that the disillusion and occasional anger that comes with dealing with infancy (usually, at least in our experience, coupled with those moments of frustration or fear over not being able to help a baby who is in obvious distress for reasons that you can't figure out) doesn't mean that you, the parent, are a bad person or that the feelings are unique or not normal.
177. JudithAtHome - 1/29/2001 5:10:45 PM
janjon:
This may be too personal, but how many years did it take before you could relax even a bit and conclude that your son had made it?
He is 38 and I still become chilled to the bone if he develops even a cough...hence, he doesn't call me much during allergy season. :-)
Seriously, it was not until he was in his early 20s that I relaxed somewhat because when he was hired by the local defense plant, he obtained a doctors certificate that said "cured". But 2 years ago, he had a stroke and we both went bananas for the 4 days he was in ICU...it brought it all back, the hospital experience, etc. (He came out of that unscathed and is fine now.)
I don't think you ever grow "unaware" but you do become less frantic.
178. Shannon - 1/29/2001 5:21:40 PM
Judith,
I can only imagine. My daughter had some complications after birth and was in NICU for a couple of weeks. Nothing potentially fatal, but I think I'd flip if she had to be in the hospital for any reason. My son (older) had tubes as a baby, and I didn't think anything of it. If she'd needed them, I think I'd have been much more nervous, even for something so minor and routine. Luckily, we've been free of hospital visits since her issues cleared up.
179. DanDillon - 1/29/2001 6:45:36 PM
Wonderful thread!
180. Erin R. - 1/29/2001 7:39:59 PM
You know, my sister went to a state-sponsored boarding school. She loved it--I wouldn't rule it out just yet, Cal.
181. Erin R. - 1/29/2001 7:43:38 PM
Cal,
Our stepdaughters are around the same age. I hope yours has her act together better than mine does!
182. MsIvoryTower - 1/29/2001 11:05:16 PM
I considered looking into a girls boarding school for my daughter for the secondary level, but now that the time is nearing I find the thought of her going away unbearable.
I comfort myself with the thought that I always told her she should go away someplace far for college, so perhaps I'll be better prepared by then.
Calgal expressed my feelings somewhere back there: I feel I've only got a few years left before she spreads her wings and makes her own path in the world, and I don't want to miss any of these coming years.
I suppose that's a bit selfish.
Btw, my mother went to an all girls high school and boarded, but she was only a town away from her home, so I think the experience was a bit different. She had a blast during those years, and has classic stories of schoolgirl antics among the nuns.
183. Wombat - 1/30/2001 8:23:54 AM
I was eager to go to boarding school after 9th Grade. My parents and I were headed down a path that would have probably gotten me into some trouble if I had stayed (due mostly to my bad attitude). Boarding school was a nice change of scene, and allowed me to find myself (to some extent) and to get into a good college. It also made the transition to college painless.
If Wombette and Wombino become interested in going to boarding school, I would not get upset (my wife would).
184. PsychProf - 1/30/2001 10:53:53 AM
Our local boarding schools(s) are quite well known and cost $15-20,000 per year...the cost of college for my boys was more than $200,000...some of you guys have big bucks! There is no way I could have afforded private school as well as college. But the truth is much simpler...I wanted them around in their teens.
185. CalGal - 1/30/2001 11:08:53 AM
I pay for private school, but not a super pricey private school--mainly because Spawn isn't the sort who could easily get accepted to them. Neither his father or I have any connections and Spawn, like his mother, doesn't play the game of good behavior. Although I did more of this as a child then I do as an adult.
From a discipline perspective, I'd say we spend more time than ever before on trying to get Spawn to understand the game of good behavior, and how to play it. As kids get older, the parameters change and their expanding list of options gives them more opportunities to screw up.
186. CalGal - 1/30/2001 11:10:53 AM
Something I have realized lately: Spawn used to have bright and interesting friends. Recently, I've noticed that I really don't like any of his friends. They're not thugs, they're just....boring. Not particularly bright. Not well-read, not even pop culturally up on things. Dull and dullardly. This was not a problem of the few friends he had prior to the age of 11 who were generally like Spawn: quirky, imaginative, bright.
I put this together with his grade descent over the past two years (until we moved him out of public school) and went, hmmm. Without making a huge issue of it or refusing to let him play with these kids completely, my ex and I are working on ways to restrict his time with these kids and also finding other group activities where he can hopefully form friendships with kids who are more interesting, challenging, and focused.
I spoke to a counsellor about it and she said that there are so many kids in their pre- and early teens whose parents just check out on them. They aren't abusive, they just figure "Hell, they don't need daycare or feeding, so my work is done." The kids lose time and attention at the very time they need it most. In other words, these kids may actually have been bright and interesting kids when they were 10 and 11--but they are growing up without parental interest and support.
Very sad.
I don't wish to sound as if I've become a purist on the issue of Spawn's friends, or that they all must pass an IQ test. But when all of them are completely uninterested not only in school, but in brain activity of any sort, unmotivated, and without any incentive to grow and develop, it becomes clear that it's not a good peer environment for Spawn. Is it fixable? I don't know yet. But I've received reassurance from the counsellor that it's actually better that he spend more time by himself than with kids who continually show him what a low standard he can slink by with.
187. janjon - 1/30/2001 11:20:44 AM
Perhaps impossible for you to tell, but is it at least in part a quirk that there really weren't many interesting kids in his particular class? In other words, not a matter of selection as much as no choice? This certainly can happen - especially as kids approach teenage where many formerly alert, bright, what have you kids find those traits to be uncool.
188. JudithAtHome - 1/30/2001 11:22:01 AM
I went through that with my son and had a very hard time getting him to seek out others...he liked those kids and that was it, as far as he was concerned. We had the added pressure of holding that fine line between saying, "They're bums; drop them" and allowing him to choose people he felt comfortable with because he was "different"...this because most of the kids at his school regarded him as some sort of "case"...the kid who was supposed to die soon. (Kids back then were just as cruel as today.) Even the teachers contributed to this weirdness...
Also, many times, a kid will seek out a group he can feel superior in...I think my son did this to some extent. No competition, in other words...his friends were all in awe of him and he liked that, at the time.
Plus you have to realize, many kiddos resist anything the parents try because it's their way of feeling in control. They are trying to assert their independence in whatever ways they can and going against the parents ideas of which friends they can have is age old story of resistance.
189. PsychProf - 1/30/2001 11:31:50 AM
Parenting is such a high wire act...to intervene or not to intervene, that is the question....
190. CalGal - 1/30/2001 11:40:15 AM
Janjon,
I certainly agree that there are going to be relatively few bright kids in any public school. I also think that this particular public school was just a lousy school. Spawn very much wanted to go to a different one in the district, but it had a lottery and he wasn't chosen.
So yes, it is possible that the problems that arose when he moved to junior high had to do with the lack of available kids in his peer group.
In either event, removing him from the environment was a start. Now we have to do a bit more and cut his available time to be around them--without, as Judith says, giving them the "bum's rush".
Also, many times, a kid will seek out a group he can feel superior in...I think my son did this to some extent.
Spawn doesn't do this--quite the contrary, I think he'd be better off if he did exert more leadership among his friends. His own instincts are relatively sound but he just joins in and says "Sure!" to disastrous ideas if they are proposed by friends.
191. janjon - 1/30/2001 11:45:14 AM
Oh, there are many public schools with lots of bright kids. We were blessed with one before moving back to the City. But, even then, some grades (or sections) are "better"/more conducive to interesting mind-stretching activities than others. Given teachers make a difference. As you obviously know, you have to keep on top of it and, I think, approach it all with a very cynical eye.
The trick may very well be to, somehow, "help" your son find an activity (or two) outside school which both interests him and which provides the milleu you want.
Quite a trick, but hopefully doable.
192. janjon - 1/30/2001 11:47:15 AM
Incidentally, by no means do I think that private schools, day or boarding, are a panacea either. Same potential for the same problems, with the one possible difference being that most private schools have a better teacher/support staff to student ratio and, frequently, a wider range of activities to hopefully snag a kid's attention. The better ones also seem to have more of an overall attitude that academics do matter and can be fun, even exciting.
193. PsychProf - 1/30/2001 11:47:57 AM
JanJon...I live in an upscale community, and the HS has a number of bright kids...playing three sports also keeps them tired.
194. SnowOwl - 1/30/2001 2:03:38 PM
We have few private schools here, and the ones we do have are mostly church-affiliated. A number of the public schools have boarding establishments, since we have such a large rural population, spread out over huge distances. In terms of academic achievement the public schools do better than the private establishments.
195. arkymalarky - 1/30/2001 6:09:26 PM
Same here, as I've said many times in the past. In the larger LR districts, If you have a kid who can pass advanced coursework it's like going to a free private school, and students are very well prepared to pass AP tests and get into great universities; and AR School of Math and Sciences is a free public boarding school that admits top students from around the state whose schools may be smaller or poorer, and thus have more limited course offerings, computers, and equipment. Its SAT9 scores are always higher than any of the other schools because they get the cream of the crop, and their scholarship list and list of senior admittance into top national schools is very impressive. Private schools, at least here, do better on the elementary and sometimes middle school level, but they simply don't have the resources to offer what public high schools do.
196. arkymalarky - 1/30/2001 6:11:08 PM
As far as boarding schools, or whatever ed choices parents make, different kids have different needs, and as long as those stay the priority, kids will do well.
197. janjon - 1/30/2001 6:18:15 PM
Well put, Arky. Different strokes for different people and different contexts. As long as the core concern is what is best for the kid.
198. jonesatlaw - 1/31/2001 12:01:07 AM
Speaking of teenagers- I have to share how one of my friends dealt with finding her 16 year old son's stash of Playboy and Penthouse magazines. She was in midst of a divorce, and things were a bit tense in the house. She didn't want a confrontation with this son, as he was generally her most obedient and responsible kid. However, she didn't want the porno pile to grow. She called a friend of hers over, made a pitcher of martini's and got out two black magic markers. The two moms then enjoyed a drink, and colored black panties and bras on every model. They then replaced the stash back in his room, and finished the pitcher in high spirits. The next cleaning forray into his room produced no porno. Nothing further was ever said.
199. cmboyce - 1/31/2001 12:18:41 AM
Hahaha, that's funny, Jones. But a bit weird, on consideration.
Aside from making a much less droll story, I think it would be have been much better to have told the kid how the stuff offended her (though given the pleasure she took in drawing on it, it's hard to be sure it really did), and asked that he please at least keep them where she won't be stumbling on them, though she'd rather he didn't have them at all. Then let him do what he will about it. I'd think it might get the same result. Talking about it keeps communications open, too, I'd think, whereas this coup de main can only offend. I imagine his silence is, to say the least, mortified and defensive. When she wants to talk to him next about some such behavioral thing, he may not feel she's necessarily on his side.
And I can't say I see much of a problem, here, anyway. Kids will and probably should have secrets, and if Playboy and Penthouse are the extent of this boy's hidden life...
AND, whatever it may be, I'm sure it will be better hidden, now.
200. jonesatlaw - 1/31/2001 12:27:07 AM
cmboyce- the story is an old one. Her son is now a father. I agree that some direct communication is probably how I would handle it, but then I'm a dad, and anything too far removed from the direct approach is beyond my repetoire.
201. joezan - 1/31/2001 12:37:28 AM
My mom told our priest about my stash. He confronted me at the earliest opportunity, admonished me a bit, then asked whether I had seen the Barbara Bach issue.
202. CalGal - 1/31/2001 12:48:09 AM
Good lord. I'm sorry, but I have serious reservations about a mom who colors bikinis on Playboy bunnies.
I would treat the discovery of most porn as pretty standard stuff, nothing to be commented on. If I noticed it getting too far down the hardcore path, I'd have a talk with him about it.
203. Erin R. - 1/31/2001 10:20:39 AM
I don't think I'd do anything about a Playboy and Penthouse stash. Hustler would bother me a bit more.
204. janjon - 1/31/2001 10:36:39 AM
studs, cuffs and whips would be a bothersome find.
205. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 10:39:19 AM
Not to mention the Weekly Standard or National Review.
206. janjon - 1/31/2001 10:41:41 AM
lets not get into obscenity, Jade!!!
207. PsychProf - 1/31/2001 10:41:47 AM
Few parents tell their children what to do in terms of sexual behavior...the concentration is almost always on what not to do. Since over 60% of high school students engage in you know what, this turns out to be an important distinction, and indeed, lack of information.
208. theDiva - 1/31/2001 10:51:19 AM
hm. You don't have to deal with porn if you've got a daughter. I hope. I'm not sure what I'd do. I have strong objections to the stuff and I would not want it in my house, but I can't see myself coloring bikinis on all the ladies, either (unless it was Greg's stash, and then we'd have an opera in the house for sure.)
I found, growing up, that my mother was much more forthright than most on the issue of sex. I've taken my cues from her and presented to Gracie what my views and morals are, in addition to the usual mechanics talk. The next few years will tell me whether I've been effective....right now she is at the stage where, though she's in puberty, she is interested in boys in the abstract. I was thinking the other day how nice it would be if she met someone and we had a similar situation to what Arky describes for Mose....nice boy, families socialize together, etc. It sounds so lovely and so healthy.
209. Erin R. - 1/31/2001 11:11:28 AM
I used to have porn stashed under my mattress as a teen. My mother found it, but didn't mention it until 15 years later, as she attended me in labor.
Guess she couldn't hold back any longer.
210. janjon - 1/31/2001 11:14:22 AM
Seems like a very odd thing to bring up at that point in time. Was this part of a general reminiscing about how her little girl was now so grown up, etc.?
211. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:15:45 AM
I wouldn't consider it porn but when I was 13, I was reading DH Lawrence and Thomas Hardy...pretty heady stuff for a neophyte. My mom would've blown a cok had she known...
212. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:16:43 AM
GOOD LORD!!!! a coRk, a cork a cork A CORK!!!! Sorry, mom!
213. Erin R. - 1/31/2001 11:16:48 AM
No, I just commented on the fact that watching a baby emerge is quite a contrast to what is depicted of women's genitalia in Playboy.
214. janjon - 1/31/2001 11:17:43 AM
Ooooooh, Judith. You'd better hope that certain of the gang don't see that one.
215. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:19:11 AM
I doomed....talk about Freudian slips!
216. janjon - 1/31/2001 11:20:11 AM
Well, what with Texas accents and all, maybe no one will get it. As in COKE.
Right.
217. theDiva - 1/31/2001 11:21:03 AM
Judith's followup is funnier than the actual slip.
218. Jenerator - 1/31/2001 11:24:52 AM
The first nekkid picture I saw was the famous centerfold of Burt Reynolds in Cosmopolitan. I was maybe 10 years old and it made me so embarassed.
219. janjon - 1/31/2001 11:27:01 AM
and fuzzy warm and tingly, perhaps?
220. Jenerator - 1/31/2001 11:28:50 AM
Janjon,
I felt weird. I knew that I was seeing something I was supposed to see, and Burt was so hairy! It was shocking, mortifying and bewildering. I was more scared than anything else. Of course Marshame seemd to intuitively know that I was looking at something I wasn't supposed to, and so she came in and saw me looking at the picture and I felt even worse!
221. Jenerator - 1/31/2001 11:29:38 AM
something I WASN'T supposed to see..
Good grief, Judith what have you done to me!;-)
222. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:29:53 AM
Hey, I still have that copy of Cosmo, if you wanna check it out again, Jen!
223. Jenerator - 1/31/2001 11:31:23 AM
Judith,
Does Burt Reynolds look like my kinda guy?
224. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 11:32:50 AM
That is a very American reaction, Jenerator. I'm sure a child raised in Europe or South America wouldn't feel as you did.
Take a look at Freud's Civilization and Its Discontents. It will offer an insight as to why you felt as you did.
225. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:34:13 AM
But seriously, folks...what Janjon asked Jen brings up a point...there's no need for hidden porn these days because kids can see so much blatant sexuality on MTV, ABC, in movies, and in ads from magazines and TV. So just how DO they deal with those weird and tingly feelings that sort of stuff is meant to engender? I think kids are maturing early on because of exposure to and reaction to these sorts of stimuli...amongst other reasons like diet, etc.
226. Jenerator - 1/31/2001 11:35:45 AM
Jade,
I know why I felt the way I did. Seeing a grown-up man who was hairy (and unattractive IMO)and naked wasn't the normal routine for me. Full frontal male nudity wasn't something I grew up around, and I don't think that my shyness about it was bad or Freudian.
227. Jenerator - 1/31/2001 11:38:14 AM
In England there was a series on The Sexual Anatomy featuring a different body part each week. PRIME TIME showed an investigation into the clitorus...how woman masturbated, what their physiological responses were, the different looks they could have, and what transsexual females looked like. My male roommates loved the show, us females were shocked.
Primetime, right after the Simpsons.
228. janjon - 1/31/2001 11:39:58 AM
no question. One would hope that parents in any event would decide to be open with and talk to their kids about sexuality, etc., starting certainly at puberty. What with all the opportunities for kids to see nudity and have sex (well at least heavy innuendo) thrown at them in tv and ads, the age at which those talks should start has obviously dropped.'
We started talking with our daughter about sexuality generally and then, hopefully as appropriate and with the right touch, at age 11.
Plan on doing the same with the boy.
229. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 11:40:04 AM
Of course it wasn't bad, Jenerator. Shyness or discomfort is a response to repression.
It was, however, quite Freudian.
230. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:42:50 AM
It was, however, quite Freudian.
Well, what isn't ?
231. DanDillon - 1/31/2001 11:44:13 AM
It was what it was.
232. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:45:05 AM
janjon:
I heard the other day that some girls are hitting puberty as early as 8 or 9 in this country. I really do think it has a lot to do with hormone treated beef from fast food joints.
233. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 11:47:56 AM
Right, Judith. What isn't?
Repression, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. Freud says that a certain amount is necessary to achieve a safe and secure society. It is when repression is so great that it causes psychological problems that we have to be concerned.
I fear we Americans have not achieved that healthy balance when it comes to human sexuality.
234. janjon - 1/31/2001 11:53:38 AM
Well, I am sure it differs child to child and in some cases depending on the locale. (Although I wouldn't be so sure of that - there is no such thing as a truly sheltered place these days, unless you are talking perhaps about some back hollow where families don't have tvs and home teach, etc. Talk about repression opportunities.)
At any rate, with our daughter we just started out with a few general questions about what she had noticed or heard about or was curious about when it came to men and women or boys and girls and the way they relate to one another. That went pretty easily, perhaps because at the time she really hadn't heard too much or wasn't very curious (at least so she said.) Within a few months, we had reached the stage where we thought it appropriate to mention masturbation and how it is a normal, healthy part of growing up. I would like to think that we helped her start out correctly in understanding and (ultimately, natch) enjoying her sexuality, but at age 14 it is really only just beginning. No doubt there will be bumps in the road.
235. DanDillon - 1/31/2001 11:57:56 AM
You know what they say: the greater the bumps on the chest, the greater the bumps in the road.
236. JudithAtHome - 1/31/2001 11:58:22 AM
I fear we Americans have not achieved that healthy balance when it comes to human sexuality.
And we never will. This country thrives on repressed feelings and instincts. Thrives badly, in most cases.
We have a strict religious upbringing for the most part and pay for it throughout our lives.
237. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 12:04:31 PM
The odd thing, Judith, is that religiosity and sexuality are mutually exclusive.
238. janjon - 1/31/2001 12:07:27 PM
Jade - substitute "should be" for "are" in your 237 and, unfortunately, it would be more accurate. Too many religions tread much more heavily than they should when it comes to trying to deal with sexuality. (and, I'm not talking about something as refined as morals or ethics vis-a-vis sexual situations, just plain old sexuality.)
239. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 12:13:27 PM
That was my point, janjon. I would suggest that it is the interpretation of religions that tread heavily.
In Brazil, for instance, the population is heavily Catholic (with some Macumba thrown in for good measure). Yet, Brazilians have a positive and healthy attitude toward sexuality.
240. joezan - 1/31/2001 12:20:17 PM
Yes...breeding like flies beginning at age 13 so that your kids may grow up to live in the garbage dump is a very healthy attitude toward sex.
Maybe the good ol' USA is on the right track after all, eh Jade?
241. janjon - 1/31/2001 12:22:20 PM
And, look at the Italians. Certainly among the most Catholic of countries. Yet, one of the lowest birth rates going (which does not mean that they aren't engaging in sex) and with there having been various votes (I'm not sure they were on the national level, but certainly on the "state" level) where over 80% voted in favor of abortion rights.
Not exactly about sexuality per se, but it meshes.
242. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 12:41:22 PM
JZ:
Sexuality is only for the purpose of procreating?
How sad for you and your wife.
243. PsychProf - 1/31/2001 1:53:59 PM
Jade...what I saw in Rio was not healthy...you must be talkin about rich Brazilians.
244. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 3:04:39 PM
PP:
I differentiate between sexuality and reproductive health issues. Certainly, Brazil has many problems with respect to reproductive health issues. This is primarily due to a lack of education and access to adequate healthcare.
245. JJBiener - 1/31/2001 3:18:41 PM
Jade - The odd thing . . . is that religiosity and sexuality are mutually exclusive.
You never met the Catholic girls I dated in high school.
246. PsychProf - 1/31/2001 3:25:43 PM
Jade...I understand that you separate the two...unfortunately, the body does not.
247. JadeGold1 - 1/31/2001 3:44:29 PM
>You never met the Catholic girls I dated in high school.
Thank goodness.
You're not using their faith as an excuse for your celibacy, are you?
248. JJBiener - 1/31/2001 3:46:50 PM
There have been studies which indicate that diet has a great deal to do with the onset of puberty in girls. Specifically, they found that diets high in animal protein and fat led to earlier maturation. The article I read used Japan as an example. In the 50's when the Japanese diet was mostly rice and vegetables, the onset of menses in girls was generally between 15 and 17. By the 80's when the article was written, the Japanese diet contained much more meat and fat and correspondingly the onset of menses had dropped to 12-14.
249. PsychProf - 1/31/2001 3:48:46 PM
JJ...I guess that answers Jade's question.
250. CalGal - 1/31/2001 3:50:13 PM
I really wish we could figure out a way to change that. Girls don't need the extra boost in maturity, and women could sure use another 10 years of fertility at the backend (regardless of what individuals may think of it personally).
251. JJBiener - 1/31/2001 3:50:46 PM
Jade - Celibacy? I lost my virginity to a good Catholic girl at the age of 14. Perhaps you should ask Mel Reynolds about Catholic school girls. I understand he is the expert.
252. PsychProf - 1/31/2001 3:53:12 PM
That is JJBiener's Immaculate Perception.
253. JJBiener - 1/31/2001 3:58:30 PM
Psych - Reynolds' behavior is not my perception. There are tapes of him setting up a sexual encounter with 15 year-old, Catholic school girl. I believe his words were, "I guess I hit the lotto."
254. PsychProf - 1/31/2001 4:01:33 PM
No No JJ...I meant your own encounter...it was posted with a smile...so easy to miscommunicate here...sorry.
255. JJBiener - 1/31/2001 4:05:51 PM
Psych - Oh, immaculate perception. No, I think you misspelled immaculate. It should be spelled ejac....(g)
256. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2001 4:27:31 PM
I thought it was the artist formerly known as niner who was the connoiseur when it comes to catholic schoolgirls.
257. PsychProf - 1/31/2001 4:28:22 PM
Confabulation and heresay.
258. JJBiener - 1/31/2001 4:32:17 PM
Pelle - I am sure Niner's experience is far more current than my own. I have been married to a good Protestant girl for over 16 years.
259. mizphys - 1/31/2001 4:35:16 PM
Don't all men who went to Catholic schools have a thing about girls in plaid skirts? Last Halloween my husband saw a couple of chicks in skimpy school girl outfits, and he couldn't stop looking. He had to mop the drool off his chin, and he's not usually one to ogle. I think it was all those years watching girls from the back of the classroom.As good girls, they were forbidden fruit, and he was too shy to talk to them back then.
260. theDiva - 1/31/2001 4:36:10 PM
(former Catholic School Girl remains silent)
261. CalGal - 1/31/2001 4:37:27 PM
(but her look speaks volumes)
262. mizphys - 1/31/2001 4:38:10 PM
She remains silent while hiking her plaid skirt and batting her eyelashes fetchingly.
263. theDiva - 1/31/2001 4:38:36 PM
haw!
264. rubberducky - 1/31/2001 4:40:19 PM
Don't all men who went to Catholic schools have a thing about girls in plaid skirts?
um, not all
265. PelleNilsson - 1/31/2001 5:13:54 PM
Young presbyterian Scots in kilts?
266. cmboyce - 1/31/2001 6:11:11 PM
There was a piece in the NYT some time ago, about the lowering age of menarche. Diet was pointed out to be the most pointed-out factor, but a case was made—apparently a newly arisen cause for a number of seemingly highly-regarded researchers—that the general presence of sexuality in the culture (MTV, mags, et al) could have an effect on hormonal production. I think this makes some sense (though it sounds hard to prove). I know that in the pre-industrial world, marriage ages varied a good deal, both between (European & British) regions, and within them in chronological terms, in response to things like war, famine, and prosperity. And with age of marriage, so moved age of menarche (I forget how measured—but there is some way to see it in "the world we have lost" (to cite Peter Laslett)). So the thing is manipulible, even if only unconsciously by the society-at-large. And the thesis is that we are doing it, now, in our culture of (to say no more) great sexual access (which is of course a by-product of birth control).
267. CalGal - 1/31/2001 6:18:35 PM
This subject is probably best for another thread, but I think that early menarche itself isn't so much a problem as it is what it means for women's fertility at the other end of the equation.
Towards that end, I think the argument that monthly menstrual cycles are, in fact, unnatural is a good one. In earlier times, the average woman might have 5-10 periods over a lifetime, or something like that.
We could do the same thing today by taking birth control pills and skipping the 7 day placebo pill, or whatever. But the pill isn't good to women over 35, so it'd be nice if they came up with another method.
268. JJBiener - 1/31/2001 6:21:15 PM
cm - It would be interesting to see a study that compared the onset of puberty between girls who were sexually abused or otherwise sexually active at a young age and those who weren't. That might shed some light. I am not aware of any study that has looked at those factors.
269. Autodaffy - 1/31/2001 10:37:06 PM
Someone wrote:
"Girls don't need the extra boost in maturity, and women could sure
use another 10 years of fertility at the backend (regardless of what individuals may think of it personally)."
Personally, I love the backend, but nobody ever told me that you could be fertile there, except in the sense of keeping the garden green.
270. JJBiener - 1/31/2001 11:12:03 PM
Daffy - Personally, I love the backend, but nobody ever told me that you could be fertile there
Where do you think lawyers come from?
271. Autodaffy - 1/31/2001 11:26:01 PM
JJ:
You have your biology all mixed up. Lawyers are like weeds in the garden. They are no sign of fertility at the backend, a place I consider holy.
272. jonesatlaw - 2/1/2001 8:00:48 PM
An off color lawyer joke kills the thread. Let's play nice.
273. DanDillon - 2/1/2001 8:09:14 PM
Speaking of girls reaching puberty too early, I crossed paths with a student today, and I could have sworn she was in her late 20s (probably a junior or a senior). Her garments of choice certainly, um, boosted her advanced-age appearance.
Hyper-sexualization, folks. It's nuts.
274. CalGal - 2/1/2001 8:10:58 PM
There was an article in Time about that. They're blaming Britney, but the sexualization of girls has gone on far longer than that little twit has been sentient, much less popular. I remember reading articles about it in the early 80s.
275. DanDillon - 2/1/2001 8:14:01 PM
Shit. It's been going on since the dawn of time. Surely, media outlets like Time, etc. have simply publicized (and to a large degree legitimized) it since, say, 1968 or so.
276. ChristinO - 2/1/2001 8:19:54 PM
Is early menarche being noted world-wide or just in the U.S?
277. wabbit - 2/1/2001 8:20:11 PM
278. JJBiener - 2/1/2001 10:23:24 PM
Christin - Is early menarche being noted world-wide or just in the U.S?
I believe it is occurring in most industrialized nations.
279. joezan - 2/1/2001 10:26:00 PM
Christin:
Is early menarche being noted world-wide or just in the U.S?
At the risk of repeating myself (although it was probably a couple of years ago that I posted on this):
A shrink I used to work with, who was born and raised in Puerto Rico, told me 20 years ago that early female development was a HUGE problem there. The, ummm... immediately obvious implications were noticable for quite some time. But, Puerto Ricans being Puerto Ricans, they didn't really mind. It was always pretty common for girls there to be married by age 12 or 13 anyway, so no biggie.
...Until a story broke in the US about an epidemic of pregnancy in PR girls under the age of ten. This guy attributed it to the unregulated use of milk-producing hormones in Puerto Rican dairy cattle.
280. janjon - 2/2/2001 10:46:16 AM
Here is a horrible story that appeared in today's New York Times: How Could She and The Kids Have Traveled Cross-Country On Amtrak Without People Noticing
I understand that calls are going out for people to provide both money and needed services (like top notch plastic surgery) for these poor kids.
281. JudithAtHome - 2/2/2001 10:58:42 AM
That woman is not a mother...she is a monster.
282. janjon - 2/2/2001 11:01:29 AM
She is terribly disturbed. The authorities made a really bad error in judgment when they gave her custody again.
283. JudithAtHome - 2/2/2001 11:09:31 AM
And just imagine: we only hear about the high profile cases like this one. Think how many mothers and fathers (and I use the terms loosely)are torturing their children on a daily basis, either physically or mentally, and getting away with it.
284. janjon - 2/2/2001 11:11:34 AM
Think how many situations there out there which are comparable except for the slashing and other visible signs. The abuse has comparable impact on the kids but so often just goes by without anyone detecting it. Until the kids act out in one way or another in, say, their mid to late teens.
285. Uzmakk - 2/2/2001 5:22:51 PM
Have only read the past several posts but I know of a case where the courts gave two young girls back to a mother who had tried to gas them and herself in a closed car.
286. Uzmakk - 2/3/2001 8:04:14 AM
Local story in the paper this morning-- Mother held her two month old baby against a radiator for two minutes. Baby required skin grafts.
287. PsychProf - 2/3/2001 1:50:37 PM
288. JudithAtHome - 2/3/2001 1:53:04 PM
PP:
Nice antidote to the last few stories...thanks!
289. PsychProf - 2/3/2001 1:53:46 PM
Ah Judith...you understand me.
290. JudithAtHome - 2/3/2001 1:55:45 PM
PP:
But I thought it was your job to undestand me ? :-)
291. Uzmakk - 2/3/2001 2:37:05 PM
I think I understand you PP -- my life is good.
292. CalGal - 2/3/2001 2:39:26 PM
One of the things I find very irritating about our societal attitude towards parenting is that our primary emphasis seems to be on not having to support the child.
So we will tolerate an inordinate amount of abusive parents because if we remove the child from the environment the society will have to pay for the upkeep of the child--or, if we are already paying for the welfare, we'll have to pay more for social services to find foster parents and so on. (one of the reasons we pay welfare is because it is cheaper than any other solution for the kids.)
When we talk about removing these kids from their parents, there is a huge amount of blather about how careful we have to be in removing a parent's rights before removing them, blah blah blah.
Yet switch to another arena: divorce. Parents, usually fathers, are regularly stripped of their legal rights. If two parents can't come to agreement in divorce court and the judge gets fed up, it's a fairly simple solution to grant legal custody to one parent, depriving the other of any right to contest the decisions made. No fuss about parental rights there.
Why? Because having your legal custody stripped away doesn't interfere with your mandatory right to provide for your child. So your rights can be removed, making the parents less likely to clog the court system and cost money, and the child still has a parent who either provides for or receives money providing for the upkeep.
293. CalGal - 2/3/2001 2:39:47 PM
So it requires an incredible amount of procedure to remove a parents rights in the event of abuse if the child will become a ward of the state. It requires only a judge's whim (or even the parents whim) to remove the rights if the child will still be someone else's responsibility.
We really don't seem to care much about children or their right to live in a non-abusive situation--much less have regular access to both parents, in the event that they've been involved in their lives up to then. All we care about is how cheaply we can get away with making sure they are provided for.
294. Uzmakk - 2/3/2001 4:23:13 PM
Cal:
You certainly like to think about the hard stuff.
295. Uzmakk - 2/3/2001 4:25:19 PM
But I sure like PP's suggestion that we simply brag and crow.
296. JudithAtHome - 2/3/2001 7:30:05 PM
So is Erin ever coming back?
297. Autodaffy - 2/3/2001 10:26:19 PM
I have always considered it proof of our disregard for children that parents can regularly murder their children and then get sentences that other people get for shoplifting.
California passed a law some time ago saying that a child not secured in a car by the means specified in law and killed would result in a harsh sentence for the parent who failed to secure him. Then the first instance came along and all you could hear about was how the parents had been punished enough by his loss and should not be brought to justice. It is sickening.
298. arkymalarky - 2/3/2001 11:26:01 PM
Did anyone see that program on PBS about juvenile justice, highlighting several young boys and following them in their process through the system? It was very good and enlightening, I thought.
299. arkymalarky - 2/3/2001 11:33:42 PM
PS--reading the previous posts brought it to mind, since their family lives were so screwed up, for the most part. I've always wished as a teacher that we had the authority to discipline the parents, and it's sad how many kids schools try to help who are often pretty much doomed by the time I see them in high school, many of whom had potential and desire to succeed, but grew tired of fighting against the tide for so long. It can really make you feel helpless, and the available agencies don't seem to do the kids a lot of good. It would be nice if foster care meant caring foster parents like JJ and SuzyQ and a few rl people I know, but it rarely does, at least here.
300. PsychProf - 2/4/2001 10:37:29 AM
Uzmak...not so. Cal brings up point(s) of intense interest("hard stuff") and importance to me. If you read backposts, you will see that I am concerned with far more than brag and crow. So, if you meant the comment as an offhand remark, you are wrong. Here is a repeat of questions/comments I thought might stimulate discussion...
1) How important are we?
2) What are our goals and dreams for our children and how do they relate to how we parent?
3) Do we admit to ourselves what we really care about...our children surely find out no matter what we say.
4) Isn't it interesting that parenting strategies(eg authoritative, authoritarian, permissive) and techniques vary so widely, and that so many of us are convinced that we know what we are doing.
5) How does the intellectual component of parenting compare with the emotional.
6) Children have long memories for our mistakes, but seem to forgive easier than we do.
7) Our mistakes can make us better parents if we admit them to ourselves.
8) The talents of our children are right in front of us if we see their world thru eyes other than our own.
9) Do we really want our children to be independent...most parent-child conflict grows out of control issues.
10) Are we consistent about our "buttons", and do we have too few or too many?
110 Do we like our children...even when they are becoming (teens) and have become adults. They know the answer to this question.
301. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 11:30:31 AM
PP:
I would like to make a post or two on this thread and will. All very short. Don't have time to address all of those very worthy questions. A quick question. I have an next door neighbor who is a PP. He mentions three psychological profiles. One where no interests peak, one where a small number of interests or abilities peak, and one where a large number of interests or abilities peak. Generally the people with the small number of peaks are the most successful because they are able to focus and get down to it. Does this sound familiar? Do I understand this correctly? Is it bullshit?
302. PsychProf - 2/4/2001 11:45:47 AM
Ya know Uz...I don't have a clue unless I see the data. See if you can get her/him to give a reference for this. This is such a general statement that opinion is worthless on my part.
303. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 1:15:18 PM
My 13 year old is in the back yard trying to rig a string to a tree branch so that it can be pulled away as the squirrels jump from tree to tree causing the squirrels to fall to the ground with tails spinning and then to scurry away in embarrasment. Now theres a good lad.
When we ask him what he thinks of certain friends and aquaintences a favorite line is, "He has been corrupted".
304. PsychProf - 2/4/2001 1:18:58 PM
Uz...ya gotta cut back on the vodka....
305. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 1:20:34 PM
PP:
?? ??!!
306. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 1:24:17 PM
Questions PP? The vodka statement seems a nonsequitur from this end.
307. JudithAtHome - 2/4/2001 1:28:24 PM
Did you know Ronald Reagan used to see to it that the squirrels on the White House grounds were fed? They grew to expect being fed and were non-threatened...they came to trust humans.
When Big George Bush became president, he loosed his dogs on them and told the press "They're history now."
I like squirrels and thought that was an interesting story.
I don't think your squirrels will be around very long, Uz...
308. PsychProf - 2/4/2001 1:28:35 PM
Well...I was trying to make heads and tails of Message # 303...probably my own confusion.
309. PsychProf - 2/4/2001 1:29:35 PM
No way Judith...squirrels lose only to truck tires.
310. JudithAtHome - 2/4/2001 1:31:35 PM
I thought maybe they would grow to distrust the trees...
311. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 1:49:52 PM
Sorry PP. Tried to get a paragraph into the final sentence. The boy seems a good healthy 13 year old to me. MTV bothers him and he is not impressed by popular culture and many an acquaintence. And there is now a string running from a maple branch to my dining room window. Good day, sir.
312. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 1:52:07 PM
And squirrels were put on this earth for young boys to match wits with.
Feed them, ha.
313. PsychProf - 2/4/2001 1:52:35 PM
Ha...good. You can give that string a yank whenever needed....very cathartic.
314. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 5:10:09 PM
I hate to go on about squirrels but you do recall the running of the squirrels advertisement during the superbowl do you not? "To run with the squirrels you have to think like a squirrel." Screen shows a close-up of the the feverishly active head of a squirrel. Sometimes I think you people are not with it. (God damn big screen barkeep.)
315. JudithAtHome - 2/4/2001 5:13:09 PM
But Uz, they are so cute! And haven't you ever seen National Velvet ?
316. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 5:18:59 PM
I have never seen NV. About horses, yes? I recall a short Hitchcock piece with a very disturbing squirrel scene in it.
317. Uzmakk - 2/4/2001 5:20:24 PM
squirrel = tree rats
318. JudithAtHome - 2/4/2001 5:25:30 PM
Liz taylor has a pet squirrel who sat on her shoulder in NV...and I think later she had something to do with a horse but the squirrel was the star....
:-)
319. JudithAtHome - 2/4/2001 5:26:23 PM
...and who can forget the literary opus of Nutkins ?
320. Erin R. - 2/5/2001 10:13:42 AM
Hey, I never went away...I just don't have much to say about the current conversations. I have a 16-month-old boy. My parenting experience is pretty low compared to others here.
321. PsychProf - 2/5/2001 10:26:04 AM
Haha...Erin...I see people that know how to parent and they have no offspring so feel free to fire away...let's see...16 months...heading for the twos...lotsa running with no sense of where they are going...the start of what I call the "swing from the rafters" stage...vocab about to exponentially blossom...liberal use of the word no...sphincters about to kick in, so toilet training is possible...
322. theDiva - 2/5/2001 10:43:03 AM
"I see people that know how to parent and they have no offspring"
hahahahaha
They know more about the subject than those of us in the trenches! I knew so much more about parenting before I had Gracie. All my genius evaporated at delivery.
323. Erin R. - 2/5/2001 10:47:47 AM
He's starting some targeted vocalizing..."diaper" is something like "duh-duh." He can say "mama" and "dada" and is getting the gist of usage. My husband is the at-home parent, and is better at deciphering his language.
He climbs. He runs. He falls out and has a fit when we don't let him crank up the volume on the stereo. He removes his diaper when he's wet or dirty.
324. theDiva - 2/5/2001 10:53:28 AM
aha! Step one towards potty-training! Great!
325. Erin R. - 2/5/2001 10:54:50 AM
Really?
He already mimics my husband standing at the toilet...except he doesn't *do* it at the toilet.
326. theDiva - 2/5/2001 10:57:17 AM
oh, absolutely. It signals that he's aware of the connection between that uncomfortable feeling and what's causing it. It may take months before he does anything else, but that awareness is key. That is so cool.
How does your husband like being the at-home parent? Greg and I are considering a similar arrangement.
327. Erin R. - 2/5/2001 11:03:58 AM
He likes it, but he's getting a bit batty these days. I think it'll get better when the weather's nicer and he can take the toddler to the park. Where he (my husband) will be cooed over by the SAHMs.
328. theDiva - 2/5/2001 11:07:30 AM
ha! I know what you mean about the cooing. Greg works evenings right now, so he picks up Gracie and a couple other kids at school. The parking-lot moms just love him. 'Oh you're so sweet to do this for your wife.' Can you imagine?
I think he'll like being home, once he gets over the initial shock of how hard it is to deal with a baby....we'll be sharing those duties for the first three months. He'll probably work PT and go to school evenings starting in the fall.
329. Erin R. - 2/5/2001 11:15:48 AM
My husband is agitating for another baby. He'd like to have a bunch, I'd be happy with just one or two.
Some days he loves being an at-home parent. Other days, I'll come home and have to peel him off the ceiling.
330. theDiva - 2/5/2001 11:47:36 AM
Yeah, I remember feeling that way when I was a SAHM. It ain't always easy.
331. Psy