Brugge
and Antwerp.
1. Fielding - 2/5/2001 5:11:12 PM
What an interesting concept.
2. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:14:35 PM
I love the blurb...now, who wants to know about the Art Nouveau mens room near the entrance to what Metro stop in Paris?
3. Rosetta Stone - 2/5/2001 5:17:00 PM
We're going to Ireland next summer. Staying in Kilrush on the river Shannon at my mother's family farm house. The Cullen clan is still there in force. It turns out my wife's family comes from Kilkee, a nearby village.
4. PelleNilsson - 2/5/2001 5:17:15 PM
Judith
Together we shall make this into a thread of incredible refinement and sophistication.
5. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:19:09 PM
Gee, Judith. Who can turn down a question like that.
(Actually, been to Paris many times. Never used any men's rooms (strong kidneys) at or near the Metro.)
6. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:20:47 PM
I like going with sophisticated.
I for one would be interested in knowing what people think is the most sophisticated city (or town) they've been in. And why, of course.
7. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:21:32 PM
Pelle:
This place I mentioned has been featured in Connoisseur magazine back when it was done by that impeccable Thomas Hoving. It is a one of a kind leftover from an age gone by, L'Belle Epoch.
8. PelleNilsson - 2/5/2001 5:23:55 PM
Judith
But what did you do there? And how did you get in? In drag?
9. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:27:03 PM
Pelle:
I got in as an enquiring photographer...I asked the attendent if I could photograph the place. He said sure or whatever the French equivilant is and let me in.
There were 3 guys with me, anyhow. It's a beautiful place...leaded glass and dark wood; has a set-up for 4 or 5 shoeshine guys.
10. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:29:17 PM
but where in Paris is it, Judith? In one of the chic arrondisements? (I suspect not - more likely out where nobody ever had the urge to "modernize" things.)
11. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:31:16 PM
It's at the Metro stop next to L'Madelaine...
12. JJBiener - 2/5/2001 5:32:35 PM
Since this thread launched before I could prepare, I thought I better hurry and post something.
Feel free to discuss anything related to travel in this thread. Just remember, the same rules apply here as on my other threads. Posts attacking others will be deleted. Short off topic conversations will be tolerated, but long conversations will be moved to a more appropriate thread. That said, I am pretty easy about what can be considered on topic.
Enjoy.
13. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:32:37 PM
well, so much for my so-called wisdom. Actually, having room for all of those shoe-shine persons (nee boys) probably was a tipoff that it was in one of the busier parts of town.
14. labwabbit - 2/5/2001 5:34:50 PM
Do we not discuss this stuff over coffee and muffins in the cafe? Over beers in the Sportbar? Band gigs in Arts and Music? Family vacations and adventures in Parenting?
(What a negative Gus huh?)
15. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:37:47 PM
There were no shoeshine guys, just the stalls for them. My friends spoke French and the attendent said the place might not be there for long. I've not been back so I don't know if it survived or not. I'm hoping Frank or someone will seach for it when they go there in the Spring.
Although I'd rather not know if it's been "modernized"...it was wonderful as I remember it.
As to your question about sophistication, Paris is my first vote and my second, too....Brussels or at least one area of it is my vote for most unexpected and suprising decadence.
16. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:41:48 PM
You must know a Brussels that I don't. Turgid, hearty souls with turgid, hearty food, even if much of it is French in derivation. I will say, though, that they can turn out a few (like hundreds) beers worth note. I also find the city itself to be almost devoid of charm - even that main square.
17. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:45:07 PM
For large cities, I think I would pick Barcelona. (I would never turn down Paris, of course.)
For smaller cities, I can think of a number in Italy that have the style and attention to the nicer details of life that add up to sophistication for me.
18. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:47:15 PM
We got lost and ended up in some weird section full of Arab stores and really filthy sidewalks...we were walking around and suddenly I realized there were all these bizarre people walking along with us...like punk rockers only old. It was not pleasant.
Then I saw these sort of hole-in-the-wall clubs and the doors were open so you could see inside...very strange, and hardly inviting. I don't know which side of town it was but we decided to get out of there quick. It was very seamy. And it stunk, literally.
19. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:49:18 PM
I love the back streets of Venice....I agree on smaller places in Italy. I love the area where all the Palladian villas are and then the coastal drive around Amalfi.
20. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:49:23 PM
There are a couple of parts of Paris that come close to that description.
21. JudithAtHome - 2/5/2001 5:50:32 PM
Oh, I know...below Sacré Couer, for one.
22. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:54:24 PM
Well, I was going to mention Venice as well, but thought- eh, too hard to explain. It really is possible to slip down a side street within two minutes of St. Mark's and find yourself in a quiet square where time seemingly has stood still in terms of the houses, the park, even the little stores. Except you run a good chance of coming across a store that sells nothing but carnival masks. There really is an air of sort of decadence long gone but lingering. And perhaps it is indeed the absence of motor vehicles, but the air is very special. Buildings look two dimensional.
I love Venice very much.
23. janjon - 2/5/2001 5:55:43 PM
Well, yes. Also the area where the North African market and stores is located. Never been there at night, so can't speak as to the clubs but I'll bet they are there. Daytime was frenetic. And, filthy.
24. DanDillon - 2/6/2001 11:30:42 AM
A shame, really, how perceptions of Arabs include (and seem to be limited to) "weird," "filthy," "bizarre," "strange," "seamy," and "frenetic." I suppose the main constantly needs to demonize. Yes, that's what makes it the main.
25. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 11:45:01 AM
Dan:
I wasn't speaking of the people...have you been to these areas of which I spoke? The sidewalks were not clean. The "weird" people I mentioned were not Arab at all but I assume, Belgian.
I was describing an AREA of town. If you haven't been there, don't heap coals of shame on my head just because I described what any tourist would notice, be they "of the main" or not. For you to jump to your conclusions tells me you are not exactly "out of the main" yourself.
And I think the word "demonize" is frightfully trite.
26. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 12:22:17 PM
My favourite city is London and I don't understand how anyone can think otherwise. "He who is tired of London is tired of life" said Dr Johnson, and he was right. I think those Americans who are hooked on Paris are hooked on an image of the city conveyed by authors and artists who were there between the wars. I find those grand vistas of Hausmann's offputting and the grand monuments too.
27. janjon - 2/6/2001 12:31:45 PM
We've had a little discussion before, Pelle, about London and Paris. In some ways, it is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. I know both well, but London better if only because I've been there much more often and indeed have lived there for sustained periods (year or so) twice in my life.
I have always loved London for its diversity and its oddities. We discussed once before, briefly, whether it is perhaps trying too hard to be "modern" - I think the answer is still out on that. But, some of the superficial changes are for the birds, in terms of feel and tone. All those wildly colored cabs, for instance. Just garish, not sophisticated. Some of the Conran restaurants which (among others) are attempts to ape the New York City restaurant scene - and they just fall short. More telling, the modern architecture in London is - virtually without exception - just hackneyed and almost embarrasing. Not so in Paris (where, indeed, there are modern buildings tucked in here and there in the heart of the city.)
Paris indeed can sometimes feel like it is too much of a picture postcard. But not really.
I'll take both, anytime, thank you very much.
28. cmboyce - 2/6/2001 12:46:29 PM
And then there's always NY, which is a spectacular place to which to travel, I'd think. A wonderful walking town, ditto restaurant town, architectural treasures town, museum town (arguably the best), good parks, etc etc and etc.
I've got to run, so I can't pursue this right now, but my love for all of the places mentioned so far (even Brussels, though my experience is limited to two days, spent mostly in the Museum), leaves plenty of room for the opinion that NYC must be the Hope Diamond of travelers' destinations.
29. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 12:50:47 PM
janjon
This discussion is of course essentially inane. Comparisons are meaningless. What I like about London is really its "oddities". You never know what you will run into because, by and large, the city is not planned but has grown organically.
One of the great lacunae of my travel experience is that I have never been to Italy except for a one-week conference in Florence.
30. seadate - 2/6/2001 1:02:17 PM
Pelle,
I know it's a matter of taste (and I like London), but it lacks the culture of much of the mainland. I've never been to Scandanavia, but cities throughout France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria moreso possess a culture of life and taste rather than imperialism and warfare.
OK, let me have it - just please remember, I bruise easily(g).
31. pseudoerasmus - 2/6/2001 1:06:47 PM
Schnipson, you seem to think Paris is a product of pure Haussmannian planning, when in fact it is a superficial imposition of planning atop a haphazard urban growth every bit as "organic" as London. Those grand boulevards connected by places (squares) encase quartiers which are as filled with "oddities" and serendippities as London. Besides, the truly monumental and open-spaced part of Paris is confined to the western part of the city. In the other parts, large structures are buried in a forest of small and old buildings. To wit, the north side of the Palais du Luxembourg, where the senate is located, has no monumental open space or plaza. Rather it's bordered by narrow streets filled with bookstores, restaurants and residential flats.
32. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 1:12:33 PM
seadate
If we talk countries rather than cities I like Germany best, in particular the small and middle-sized towns. There is a certain unchanging quality there.
33. Jenerator - 2/6/2001 1:14:58 PM
There are so many cities that I love, but two of my favorite are:
Brugge
and Antwerp.
34. pseudoerasmus - 2/6/2001 1:15:13 PM
Germany is possibly the most boring country in Europe to visit.
35. seadate - 2/6/2001 1:19:40 PM
Years ago, I found Checkpoint Charlie and Berlin particularly boring.
36. seadate - 2/6/2001 1:20:20 PM
Nice pics, Jen.
37. Jenerator - 2/6/2001 1:36:07 PM
I'm going here for my honeymoon. Anyone ever been?
Puerta Plata: 
38. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 1:40:53 PM
PE
You should be the first to know that overstating one's case is essential to an argument.
Yes, Germany can be described as boring; that's why it appeals to a dour fellow like me.
39. theDiva - 2/6/2001 1:41:43 PM
and humorless. Don't forget humorless.
40. Jenerator - 2/6/2001 1:48:13 PM
I would think that Germany would have its fascinating parts like everywhere else.
The only places I have no desire to see:
Bangladesh
Siberia
Manitoba
Algeria
Libya
Antarctica
41. Dusty - 2/6/2001 1:52:58 PM
I wasn't impressed by Munich (although I spent less than day there), but I did enjoy a town in the Black Forest, preserved from the 14th or 15th century. I can't recall the name of the town, and Google hasn't helped me yet.
42. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 1:53:33 PM
Jenerator
Believe me, you wouldn't like Algeria, not because it's unsafe at the moment, but because it is boring, without a soul, kind of second-class France. In North Africa, Morocco is the place. I don't know about Libya, but if one likes Roman ruins ...
Why on earth would you like to visit Bangladesh?
43. janjon - 2/6/2001 1:56:37 PM
Puerto Plata?
Yes, I've been there. The major tourist area there consists of a number of hotels (varying price ranges), scattered over a large enough area, all of which is (discreetly) walled. And guarded, of course. Well maintained, nice beaches, Americanized food.
Having said that, I strongly urge you to get out and see some of the rest of the Dominican Republic. You will be on the north coast and, except for Puerto Plata, it is still not overly developed. You can drive east and see some interesting enough towns and run into very nice uncrowded beaches. Going west it is even less developed with a couple of "authentic" towns (authentic because tourism hasn't yet reached them.) (You, of course, quickly run into Haiti. Go, but only if you are street smart. Actually, your car rental will probably forbid it.) I recommend also getting into the mountains (one of which might still have snow since it is, if I recall correctly, about 10000 ft. high), which are not too far from Puerto Plata. The town of Puerto Plata itself is not much more than a simple town.
44. janjon - 2/6/2001 1:58:49 PM
Germany. You have to be verrry selective, with a high tolerance for boredom in most of the rural areas. Utterly devoid of charm. Although, I think Berlin is fascinating. I do wish I could somehow visit Berlin of the late '20s and early 30's.
45. Dusty - 2/6/2001 1:59:03 PM
Rothenburg
46. Dusty - 2/6/2001 1:59:58 PM
PelleNilsson
read it again
NO desire
47. janjon - 2/6/2001 2:01:01 PM
Haussmann's wide boulevards, of course, were a (mostly successful) attempt to break through medieval Paris in a way that would insure crowd control in future revolutions/uprisings. Pseudoerasmus is correct - it was in essence superimposed and much of Paris remains a wonderful jumble.
48. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 2:03:14 PM
Dusty
???
49. CalGal - 2/6/2001 2:07:17 PM
Jen is saying those are the places she has no desire to visit.
50. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 2:08:09 PM
Our prefernces are of course shaped by early experiences. I first visited Germany, with a friend, in 1960 at the age of 17. The following year I spent two months there on a student exchange programme working as an electrician's apprentice in a mine in Saarland. On our first visit abroad my (future) wife and I went to Bernkastel-Kues, a charming town in the Mosel wine district.
51. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 2:14:24 PM
CalGal
Hahaha! I get zero for reading comprehension.
I would add Saudi Arabia and Nigeria to that list.
52. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 2:28:34 PM
Dusty:
Rothenburg am de Tauber is the city you mean in Germany...Pelle might have thought you meant Rothenburg in Sweden.
It's a wonderful place, huh? I've been there several times...and spent at least 3 nights in gasthauses inside the walled part of the city. Lovely.
53. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 2:47:38 PM
Judith
There is no Rothenburg in Sweden but a Gothenburg, my birthplace. I've been to Rothenburg too. Very nice, although a bit touristy; difficult to get the one without the other.We were driving in from Plzen (Pilzen) in Chechoslovakia, a grimy industrial city. But the beer was good. In Swedish "pilsner" is a synonym to "öl" (beer). In German "öl" means "oil". Life sure is a mystery.
54. Dusty - 2/6/2001 2:51:02 PM
JudithAtHome
Yes, in Germany.
And it was delightful, although bittersweet. I understand that the reason it has been preserved is because it was so desperately poor for hundreds of years that they didn't make any improvements. By then, they realized it was a cultural heritage to preserve, but generation upon generation went through grinding poverty to "save" it for us.
I think it was 1979 when I was there, so my memory has dimmed. I recall a delightful hotel next to cramped roadway that didn't seem wide enough for a car to pass. It may have been one of the Romantic Hotels. have you stayed in any of them?
55. CalGal - 2/6/2001 2:53:54 PM
Pelle,
Saudi Arabia is actually a lovely country, at least by the sea. It has fantastic snorkelling, too. But I imagine you can get all that without the religion in other places.
56. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 3:00:42 PM
CalGal
It's not the religion. I find the Saudis terribly arrogant.
57. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 3:08:28 PM
Oooops, Pelle...Gothenburg, sorry.
Dusty:
I stayed in one at the very back of the city, but it was easily accessible. Then, our last time there, we stayed in the one right next to the Spital Gate...the one that shows up in all the pictures of the city, with the curved entry and the tower on top. It was romantic for us (g)!
58. pseudoerasmus - 2/6/2001 3:55:07 PM
Some of the world's most beautiful natural scenery is in Siberia. It's not the frozen wasteland that Antarctica is and that Jenerators assumes.
59. pseudoerasmus - 2/6/2001 3:56:26 PM
Rothenburg is just a tourist trap, like so many of Germany's Altstadt sites.
60. Dusty - 2/6/2001 4:14:33 PM
pseudoerasmus
Well, there's tourist traps and there's tourist traps. The ones that are obvious, when you see shops, and trays of wares that you know aren't being sold to anyone except tourists, are one level. Kathmandu, and Ensenada Mexico come to mind.
Rothenberg probably qualifies, in the sense that it is written up on tourist itineraries, and there probably are merchants catrering mostly to tourists. Compared to some of the places you've been, it may reeek of a tourist town, but I frankly don't recall the blatant touristy feel of many other places.
61. CalGal - 2/6/2001 4:14:43 PM
Really? Well, I'm a Californian so I generally approve of arrogance.
62. pseudoerasmus - 2/6/2001 4:23:29 PM
Message # 60: the long tourist queues to get up to that silly tower, and the shops stocked with kitschy ceramic statuary of folksy Germans, not enough to convince you?
63. janjon - 2/6/2001 4:24:47 PM
Avoiding tourist traps almost means virtually staying away from most "cute" or "unique" or "character-filled" towns, like Bruges. Like certain villages in the Cotswalds. Like Rye or Hastings.
So, you have to hone in on bigger places and then do your damnedest to avoid the touristy aspects. See "the" sites once and then hone in on more narrowly defined or unique pleasures.
Venice comes to mind. I suspect there are millions of people who've been there who have left after a couple of days absolutely convinced that it is one of the biggest, if unique, tourist traps in the world.
Which the places they probably (and understandably on a two day jaunt) saw now are. Spend more time there and, say, go only to look at the churches. You'll quickly see a different, quiet and fascinating Venice.
64. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 4:24:48 PM
Pseudo:
Rothenburg is just a tourist trap, like so many of Germany's Altstadt sites.
What you fail to realize it most of the people in the world are merely tourists...we can't all aspire to the heights of Olympus where you dwell.
65. janjon - 2/6/2001 4:26:13 PM
Mont St. Michel comes to mind of being what has become the quintessential tourist trap. A perfectly nice and unique site that is overrun now with kitsch.
66. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 4:28:50 PM
janjon:
I agree with you about Venice (and what you said in general)...we went to Venice with our hosts, an Italian and her husband. We saw things there tourists usually don't...and ate with friends at their home and shopped where locals do. It was a unique visit.
67. pseudoerasmus - 2/6/2001 4:31:26 PM
Janjon & Judith, there are some places, not matter how vulgarised by local merchants or disfigured by hordes of fat Americans, one ought nonetheless to see. Venice qualifies as one such. But I was talking about Rothenburg, a mediocre site, one of hundreds of preserved medieval old cities. One could see more authentic and less touristed versions of Rothenburg in Eastern Europe.
What you fail to realize it most of the people in the world are merely tourists...we can't all aspire to the heights of Olympus where you dwell.
Tourism is just a mentality, not an inescapable economic condition.
68. JudithAtHome - 2/6/2001 4:33:34 PM
Thanks so much for that gem, PE...I'll keep it in mind.
69. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 4:43:48 PM
This talk about "tourist traps" reeks of misplaced and contrived snobbery. I've been to places like Pergamon, Ephesos and Troy. They were "tourist traps" in the sense that they hosted vulgar shops selling tasteless souvenirs. Should I have avoided them in order to visit lesser sites without shops? I don't think so. "Trap" means trickery, something that aspires to be something it is not. I don't think Rothenburg or Venice fall into that category.
70. pseudoerasmus - 2/6/2001 4:46:31 PM
How does Message # 69 square with the statement in #67.
"Trap" means trickery, something that aspires to be something it is not. I don't think Rothenburg or Venice fall into that category.
This is perhaps why Schnipson doesn't write a language column in a newspaper.....
71. janjon - 2/6/2001 4:47:20 PM
I actually agree with that little pithyism. And with pseudoerasmus' point above about how some places should be visited, overt "tourist" trappings notwithstanding. Again, the smaller the place the more acute the feeling. Toledo comes to mind. All those knives for sale. Among other things. But, am I glad to have seen Toledo? Walked through those extraordinarily narrow "streets" at night? Of course. Sienna comes to mind in somewhat the same way.
The trick is to just accept that certain places (either generally or within a particular city) are just going to be overrun with la tourista and the accompanying kitsch. Grin, bear it, take a picture or two, and then see what else is of interest nearby or in another area of the city, etc.
72. janjon - 2/6/2001 4:49:02 PM
no, Pelle. You misread. I think we are all on the same track here.
well, mostly.
73. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 4:52:47 PM
PE
I hadn't read your #67 when I posted.
74. PelleNilsson - 2/6/2001 4:58:33 PM
And I'm amused at seeing you adopting a tactic employed my a number of morons around here: "if under pressure, attack his language".
75. pseudoerasmus - 2/6/2001 5:05:17 PM
I didn't attack your language, which was impeccable. I just thought your interpretation of the word "trap" was silly.
76. labwabbit - 2/6/2001 5:57:20 PM
"snare" may be more appropriate eh?
77. ScottLoar - 2/6/2001 8:37:22 PM
I suppose there was a time - oh, somewhere between the High Middle Ages and the Ford Trimotor - when one could believably say just getting there was half the fun, but now it's hell. Speedy, yes, but long hours at 35,000 feet in a darkened shell amongst strangers, only to arrive discombobulated by time and space, then to run on wobbly legs with the others to the customs line, the baggage line, the taxi line...
And yet a business schmuck can rack up a million miles on the frequent flier programs - more than heads of state on visits of national import - just by doing his job. Brave new world!
78. labwabbit - 2/6/2001 8:45:32 PM
Fly charter...under radar...(meals not included)
79. DanDillon - 2/6/2001 9:38:46 PM
Pelle Message # 74,
...a tactic employed my a number of morons around here: "if under pressure, attack his language".
Are you calling me a moron? And if so, may I regard it as much a compliment as I do pe's calling me an idiot? One last question: did you mean my or by?
80. altitude /w attitude - 2/6/2001 10:11:19 PM
I love to travel. I enjoy the planning, the trip, the arrival, the location, I even love returning home to savor the experience. Driving, walking, flying, it is all wonderful. We have shared our home with students from Germany, Sweden, Norway, France, Brazil, and the Netherlands. That is almost as much fun as traveling. People are awesome.
81. jonesatlaw - 2/6/2001 11:01:36 PM
Jen, Manitoba is not a boring wasteland. Lake Manitoba is rather large and it is possible to take a short cruise (although with the floating Xanadus one finds in more popular cruise locales it pales in comparison) rather far north. There are some ethnic settlements in southern Manitoba that have festivals which are rather fun. Winnepeg is a nice city with a decent art museum and a beautiful "new" cathedral built inside the walls of the old one which was destroyed by fire.
However, I am from Nebraska and don't need to be hit over the head with the scenery to enjoy a place. :-)
82. CalGal - 2/6/2001 11:17:23 PM
Scott,
I wonder if mileage will ever be taxed. Every so often some congressman eyes it longingly.
83. cmboyce - 2/7/2001 12:28:42 AM
In my '76-77 wanderjahr, I spent two periods in Venice, both in the winter, one of 4 weeks (in a tiny room in a tiny hotel near the train station), and a second for 3 weeks, in an apartment inhabited for a year by an American woman and her daughter. We shopped etc in the n'hood (by San Stefano), the best of which was buying groceries in 18" of water, during a big aqua alta. I walked most of the city, in pursuit of all those churches—many of which are gems and all of which, it seems, contain something gem-like—and it seemed to me much less a tourist-town than, say, Florence (though admittedly, there I saw less of the back streets). The winter weather was beautiful and added much to the worn grandeur of that which is grand and took nothing from that which isn't. The place is a pest-hole in the summer, I gather (& recall dimly from 3 days there as a 16-year-old), but in the winter, it is simply magnificent.
Btw, and not entirely a non sequitur, I learned recently that Venice is that city in the world with the most bridges—no surprise there, I guess—and that the second-most bridges are in... PITTSBURGH!!! (also a very nice place to visit, imo, if not in the same league).
84. PelleNilsson - 2/7/2001 12:47:00 AM
DanD
I don't remember you attacking my language. You may have corrected it on some occasion, which I don't object to at all, on the contrary.
I should be "by".
85. jonesatlaw - 2/7/2001 1:31:22 AM
My recomendation for travel is Hawaii, the Big Island. Though it was a long time since I was last there, the major attractions are geographic features and so I am comfortable recomending the island. Aside from the obvious attractions of Volcanos National Park, the black sand beach, ranch country and of course the ocean, get off the beaten path and see some small towns. The Big Island is one place where it is easy to drive a bit and watch the entire nature of the landscape chage before your eyes. Lush and tropical on one side, then open dry country with beautiful hills and mountains, back down towards the coast through papaya plantations and finally to the coast and the verdant tropics. You can even pick your weather if you time it right, by where you go. Hot and sunny?-out to the ranch you go. A little warm rain? -most mornings near Volcano. Brisk and breezy?-head up the slopes. Heck there's even snow sometimes if you're high enough up the peaks. It's been too long since I was there to recomend anything man made, but the place itself beggars description.
86. jonesatlaw - 2/7/2001 1:51:08 AM
Places to avoid- Port Arthur, Texas. Janis Joplin was from Port Arthur and between that and her date with Bill Bennet you can understand why she risked self destruction in order to forget her past. The place stinks. Gary Indiana is a garden spot in comparison.
Oklahoma City. Huge cowtown that makes Omaha look like Paris.
Houston- cross breed of Oklahoma City and Port Arthur.
87. jonesatlaw - 2/7/2001 1:57:30 AM
Toronto is another city I think is underated. Imagine New York with sane cab drivers, clean streets, less crime (I know New York is much better than its reputation) polite residents who know that civilization reaches beyound the city limits, cuban cigars that you don't have to mortgage your house for, and no Yankee fans to speak of. You get to keep a city with fine arts, lively culture, a great mix of natives and new immigrants, big time sports and stage attractions and great restaurants.
88. CalGal - 2/7/2001 2:20:36 AM
I dunno. I like Maui an awful lot. There's tons to do and a lot more restaurants.
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89. Francis Urquhart - 2/7/2001 10:44:51 AM
I am going on my yearly golf trip/tournament (The "Ride-Her Cup") soon (4 days, 6 rounds, of head-to-head and captain's choice match play with 23 of my closest friends). This year's venue is Charleston, SC.
Any suggestions of good restaurants/bars is appreciated.
90. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 11:03:55 AM
I second Jonesatlaws kudos to the Big Island...very un-touristy except on the KonaKailua side.
91. theDiva - 2/7/2001 11:10:51 AM
Jonesie
"and no Yankee fans to speak of"
You say this as if it's a good thing.
92. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 11:19:06 AM
Frannie;
Downtown Charleston is oriented and around the old slave auction house, neo-Classic in its appearance and stolid like a bank building. I spent Christmas there some few years back, but nothing particularly remarkable about the cuisine as the Southern states - save New Orleans - seem to lack good cuisine unless you like gooey, chewey, overly sweet desserts. At a small town directly outside of Charleston I did have one very good meal, shrimp over fluffy grits, that was surprisingly good, especially so as I anticipated yet another mediocrity. Oh, and I did have in Edenton, North Carolina, tuna steak cooked in lemon and pepper, served with green beans and mashed potatoes, accompanied by ice tea, in a diner on the edge of town. That meal was superb, but about 500 miles distant from Charleston.
93. DanDillon - 2/7/2001 11:21:52 AM
I'm glad Hawaii came up. My wife and I (sorry, Jen) finally decided on a destination for our honeymoon and are headed there around this time next year. We have zeroed in on Maui. I am intrigued by Hana and the "real deal" as far as the island and islanders are concerned. But Anne leans toward Wielea and the much more "developed" areas. We're looking to be seriously deliriously pampered, so maybe I'm off the mark myself.
Comments? Suggs?
94. JayAckroyd - 2/7/2001 11:52:01 AM
I had a six week assignment on Kuwai and really loved it. Spectacular views, and great birding.
95. CalGal - 2/7/2001 12:30:03 PM
Dan,
I would do both areas. Wailea is a fantastic place for beaches--the first picture in my array is a sample. I think it is far better resort area than Ka'anapali. Makena Road is just south of that, and is a magnificent drive, ending at Ahihi Kina'u Natural Area Reserve, which is the stie of the most recent lava flow on Maui--no one is quite sure when. (Until recently, it was assumed that it was 1790, but recently doubt has been cast on meaning of the oral reports taken from the natives at the time.)
Makena Road bottoms out at L Perouse Bay, which is simply stunning, and then you can hike to Beau Chien Beach, the site of the first Western landing on Maui (Captain Cook? Kidd? I forget which).
There is no way to drive any further--you are now at the southernmost point on the island. If you felt strongly about it, you could bring lots of water and hike some 68 miles over to Highway 31 and trek into Hana from the other side. But it's probably best to just turn around and walk back to your car. The second picture in my array above is a scene from the hike; below, in order, are a view from Makena Road, La Perouse Bay, and the beginning of the old Kings Trail that picks up at BC Beach. I realize these pictures are tiny, but I'm too lazy to link to the originals. 
96. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 12:39:23 PM
Dan:
I am intrigued by Hana and the "real deal" as far as the island and islanders are concerned.
Were I you, I'd go with your wifes idea...not sure you'll be getting much "real deal" on Maui.
I will search through our files for sites of Bed&Breakfast places to see if we have any on Maui...most of our locations are for the Big Island.
If you want some real islanders, I could give my in-laws numbers.:-)
97. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 12:46:50 PM
Here's an okay site for B&Bs in Hawaii:
Places To Stay and Things To Do
98. CalGal - 2/7/2001 1:23:14 PM
Hana--I would allocate two or three days. The hotel is okay, but there are plenty of studio and one bedroom condos in the area that are cheaper and nicer. There are two good restaurants--one in the hotel and one nearby--and a good little grocery store.
Hana is famous for the road to get there--it winds around the edge of the island. I don't recommend taking the tours, because they pretty much jet you straight to the town and then beyond, to the Ohe'o Gulch Pools (aka the 7 pools). There is so much to see on the way, and a lot of it is hidden--get the Sullivan book, "Discovering Hawaii: Maui & Molokai" for the skinny. Many of the pictures above are from the road, rather than in Hana proper. The town of Keanae is on the way, and it is lovely--also, there's a place where you can get fresh-baked banana bread (although the town closes down at 4, so plan your day).
Of course, there is a lot past Hana. The Ohe'o Gulch Pools are the most famous, but the Venus Pool is even more beautiful and far more isolated. The Haleakala National Park has the pools, as well as incredibly hiking--from hour hikes to all day treks. I walked up to Waimoku Falls, which is a good 2 hour hike, and my only complaint was that the water levels were low so the falls weren't all that impressive. But the trek itself had plenty of other falls, as well as some impressive bamboo forests. And then there is Lindberg's grave, and a host of other gorgeous beaches.
The paved road eventually ends and rental cars aren't allowed to make the entire loop. Next time I go, I will rent a four wheel vehicle or a truck for Hana.
Anyway, I think Wailea is an excellent place to pick as base camp. My condos are only in Lahaina and north, but if I were choosing based on location, it's where I'd go. You can easily get to any place on the island that interests you.
But don't miss Hana, and take more than a day.
99. Shannon - 2/7/2001 1:56:44 PM
as the Southern states - save New Orleans - seem to lack good cuisine unless you like gooey, chewey, overly sweet desserts
Hey, New Orleans isn't a state :-)
Louisiana cuisine (Southern LA anyway) is quite different from the rest of the South, I'll agree. And, yes, it's better. I think food in many places in the US suffers by comparison to food here.
100. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 2:12:36 PM
We have this fusion cuisine called...well, I don't know what they call it but it is all sorts of weird stuff mixed with someones idea of what Cowboys eat. Cactus chips, poblano pepper paté, mashed turnips with mango chutney...really weird things passing as "food".
101. Jenerator - 2/7/2001 2:31:11 PM
Dan,
I hope that you and Anne have a great time! If you want to be pampered anywhere in Hawaii:
1.) Set no limits on the amount of food you eat. Eat and eat often, try it all!
2.) Allow for sunbathing time. This may bore you, but there's nothing like catching a Hawaii tan. Get yourselves some skimpy swimwear too!
3.) Get a massage or two.
102. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 2:42:14 PM
Shannon;
Where is "here"?
103. Francis Urquhart - 2/7/2001 2:43:15 PM
Loar
Thanks for the response on Charleston.
104. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 2:45:37 PM
Do not, please, if only for the sake of younger and more sensitive viewers, get skimpy swimwear unless you've got the body and skin for it. How to check? Look at yourself nude in a full length mirror and be honest. Still too proud? Do the same exercise but this time wearing ankle-length socks and ask a member of the opposite sex how you look. Few can pass that honesty test.
105. labwabbit - 2/7/2001 2:47:16 PM
You're right Loar....you DO look funny standing there.
106. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 2:48:21 PM
And when, labwabbit, did you last see me in the nude?
107. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 2:49:30 PM
I swim 3-4 miles a week, and wear baggies. The only guys wearing speedos are gay or European.
108. labwabbit - 2/7/2001 2:55:12 PM
Never...(that I could admit without causing you further embarrassment), but the image of anyone doing that...much less suggesting others to try.
haha. It wouldn't surprise me that you might have also experimented with other... uh, "fashionable" attire. How many other ideas did you try before arriving at the "socks only" template?
btw,
How the heck are you doing these days man? (when not indulged in other indoor pursuits that is)
109. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 3:05:48 PM
I was brought home to reality as a young man of 25 and enjoying the single life in abundance, as laying next to my older Japanese girlfriend after the act, she looked at me and said,
"Scott (always drawing out the vowel in my first name), you look good in clothes". She caught her mistake and blushed.
It was another girl at another time who told me about men in socks.
110. labwabbit - 2/7/2001 3:10:26 PM
Sounds feasible...at the very least, glad you didn't use your mom as the excuse.
I try not to look in the mirror as much as possible. An over-inflated ego can be a dangerous thing.
111. Shannon - 2/7/2001 3:36:00 PM
Scott,
I live in Baton Rouge.
112. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 3:55:41 PM
Baton Rouge is still well within the sphere of New Orleans cuisine. I was afraid you were a deluded Southerner and would reply "Corpus Christie" or "Louisville" or worse, perhaps even tout the magic of the local barbecued chicken wings.
113. Jenerator - 2/7/2001 3:57:57 PM
Scott,
Why not wear something skimpy with your wife if you're on a private beach or a deserted beach? I think it would be quite liberating to enjoy the water, sand and sun with a skimpy swimsuit on.
Jonesatlaw,
I second what you said about Toronto, it's a city I love!! It has excellent food, shopping and sites. Plus it's so fantastically clean!
PseudoErasmus,
I don't envision Siberia as a solidly frozen wasteland, just a wasteland. If not desiring to see Saskylakh or Zhilinda makes me provincial, I'm fine with that. However, if I knew someone from there (Siberia) and they could arrange a safe and accomodating trip I'd probably go, but it definitely wouldn't be my first or second choice.
114. Jenerator - 2/7/2001 3:59:10 PM
janjon,
Thank you for the advice on Puerta Plata!!;-)
115. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 4:01:22 PM
I have been on deserted beaches with my wife (Jamaica) and private beaches (Tahiti) with others and strangers before my wife, without any bathing suit, thank you. But, that's not the same as a skimpy swimsuit and my comments remain.
116. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 4:01:28 PM
Why not wear something skimpy with your wife if you're on a private beach or a deserted beach? I think it would be quite liberating to enjoy the water, sand and sun with a skimpy swimsuit on.
It's even more "liberating" with nothing on....
117. Fielding - 2/7/2001 4:01:42 PM
Toronto is not really similar to New York City. It is more like a smaller, cleaner, safer Chicago, albeit with smaller shoulders.
118. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 4:03:02 PM
Fielding!
Welcome to your thread!
119. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 4:05:23 PM
JudithAtHome,
Forgive, but from the JudithAtHome's comments I've read these last few years I cannot picture you as a languid nude on a tropical beach. Of course, I may be wrong...
120. Jenerator - 2/7/2001 4:07:40 PM
Scott,
Some of us are too chicken to go au natural, so why not start with a thong biking on your wife on a deserted beach. (?)
121. Jenerator - 2/7/2001 4:07:56 PM
bikini
122. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 4:10:03 PM
Dear Jenerator,
I needn't go to a tropical beach to see my wife in a thong.
Yours,
ScottLoar
123. Jenerator - 2/7/2001 4:12:10 PM
Scott,
Great, okay. My point was to DAN that if possible he and Anne should go skimpy on a beach. I'm not going to assume that they're nudists, or that running around in thongs is common for them. I just thought it would be something liberating while on Hawaii.
124. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 4:12:40 PM
Scott:
I may not resemble Kate Moss any longer but I have had a fairly languid body in the past...I've graced a few beaches in skimpy attire, and yes, even no attire with no complaints whatsoever.
I wasn't born into this world an old crone, you know.
125. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 4:15:06 PM
JudithAtHome;
I merely assumed - judging from your moniker and comments - that you do not spend the day nude on the beach. That's all. Don't read any more than that into it.
126. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 4:19:22 PM
Scott:
Hmmmm...okay.
(Did you know I chose "@home" because everyone I knew had e-mail addresses "@" someplace or other and I was "at" home?)
127. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 4:22:58 PM
Jenerator: Siberia is a region three times the size of the continental USA, with a diversity of environments great enough to encompass (1) dense coniferous forest; (2) steppe land; (3) meadow land; (4) permanent polar ice caps; (5) tundra; (6) volcanic landscapes; (7) alpine mountains; (8) the world's deepest lake, with inland seals; and of course (9) industrial cities.
It is not a wasteland. It's one of the most beautiful places on earth.
Not to mention the extraordinary cultural & ethnic diversity.
128. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 4:24:50 PM
PE:
with inland seals;
What other types of fauna?
129. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 4:26:14 PM
In the late 1980s I and my then-girlfriend went to a "naturist" beach outside Dubrovnik, Croatia, then still part of Yugoslavia. I had reckoned the sight of naked late-middle-aged German men with pot bellies and women with skin falling to the ground would be repulsive, but actually it was a strangely Arcadian scene, and after a while the same people clothed began to look more offensive.
130. Fielding - 2/7/2001 4:30:37 PM
Judith, see the first post of the thread.
Its JJ's now.
131. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 4:31:59 PM
Fielding:
It was your idea, though...
132. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 4:32:39 PM
Message # 128
What other types of fauna [in Siberia]?
I only know about a few. Besides lake seals, Siberia is home to the Siberian tiger (about which you can read in my travelogue), the Amur leopard, the Kamchatka bear (the world's largest), wild steppe ponies (Przhevalsky horses), Bactrian camels, and all the usual polar animals in the Arctic zone.
133. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 4:35:09 PM
PE:
Was this area portrayed in the movie Dersu Uzala ?
134. Shannon - 2/7/2001 4:36:26 PM
I was afraid you were a deluded Southerner
Well, I can't guarantee I'm entirely free of delusions, but I think I'm pretty clear of mind on this issue.
135. Fielding - 2/7/2001 4:41:29 PM
Pseuder:
If I wanted to see "Siberia" and had a few days, would I be able to see all of that stuff? No.
It would be like telling someone they should visit Europe, only it would be much more expensive.
136. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 4:42:35 PM
Message # 133: yes, but the locale of that movie constitutes perhaps 1/100th of the total land area of Siberia.
137. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 4:45:00 PM
Piffling, I wast just responding to the ignorant stereotype of Siberia as a wasteland, when in fact it's an incredibly diverse landscape.
But in fact, yes, a sort of grand tour of the highlights of Siberia would be possible in 7-10 days -- with the Trans-Siberian railway.
138. JJBiener - 2/7/2001 4:55:11 PM
Judith - I may not resemble Kate Moss any longer
Thank god for that.
but I have had a fairly languid body in the past...I've graced a few beaches in skimpy attire, and yes, even no attire with no complaints whatsoever.
I suspect there is still very little to complain about. Are you near Dallas? I may be down there on business later this year.
139. Jenerator - 2/7/2001 4:56:29 PM
I have this whole thing about traveling...infrastructure, living conditions, poverty level, expense.
Siberia didn't make the cut. Although your brief synopsis does sound better than the area of Russian concentration camps most people associate with Siberia.
140. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 5:00:45 PM
Jenerator: didn't you say you travelled to Romania during your missionary stay in the UK? Romania packs everything bad in this world, including the ugliest people in Europe.
141. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 5:02:49 PM
I'm not trying to convince you to go to Siberia. In fact I'd rather not see Siberia further despoiled by a missionary presence. I was just saying it's not a wasteland.
142. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 5:06:28 PM
JJ:
Are you near Dallas? I may be down there on business later this year.
As any good Fort Worth girl would say, Dallas is near ME....30 miles to the east. I'm in the city where the West begins. It is very easy to go back and forth to either city...Jen & Marsha can show you Dallas and Keoni and I can show you Fort Worth.
If you come this way, please let us take you to dinner..we do very well with Republicans in public!
143. Jenerator - 2/7/2001 5:06:46 PM
PE,
I'm glad you remembered. The organization I have been working with had planned two trips last year to Romania, I was looking to go the end of summer. However, some of the details weren't too safe. Briefly, we were to drive a van from London to Romania with food stuffs, clothing, necessities, etc. Once there, I would have been staying with locals. None of that would have bothered me, but, the town planned isn't that safe right now and the president of the organization didn't think it was too smart to send me off with someone else.
Just so you know, I doubt that Siberia would be threatened by my presence.
144. JJBiener - 2/7/2001 5:13:08 PM
Judith - If I make it to Dallas I will most certainly let you know. You are high on my list of Moties I would like to meet. Jen and Marsha are high on the list as well.
145. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 6:02:31 PM
Several of my friends - in their student days no less - had taken the Trans-Siberian railway from Vlodovostak to Moscow, and complained of more than a week of poor food, tea with enough tannin to stain one's legbones, dreary landscape, and begrudging service from babushkas who terrorized those without a tip to tip their favour. The passengers were invariably gregarious, easily moved by kindness, generous to share their prepared provisions, and inclined to drunkeness.
I find it hard to believe that the fall of the CCP has beautified the Siberian landscape as seen from the tracks.
146. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 6:10:41 PM
All those things are still true, particularly the awful food. But the point of seeing Siberia by the Trans-Siberian is to get off at key locations, for example at Irkutsk or Ulan Ude on the Lake Baikal, and explore the stunning natural beauty of the forest, the lake, and the moutains, and even trek after wild horses on the northern shore.
147. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 6:11:49 PM
and there is absolutely no equal to the Kamchatka peninsula, anywhere.
148. CalGal - 2/7/2001 6:12:34 PM
Kamchatka has always interested me. Possibly only because of its strategic significance in Risk. But the pictures are lovely, too.
149. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 6:12:58 PM
I find it difficult enough to trek after domesticated horses than chase after wild ones.
150. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 6:14:46 PM
I've seen eagles fly below me in the heights of the Salang Mts. I am content.
151. sakonige - 2/7/2001 6:27:23 PM
Horses. I realized too late that having the pets I've always wanted meant I can't travel for more than a week at a time. Even with a caretaker they trust feeding them every day, the tribe of cats living in my house become hysterical and begin to revert to a semi-wild state if we leave them alone for more than four consecutive nights. They won't let anyone touch them for days. They huddle in corners glaring and refuse to eat, all of their charming grace and playfulness gone. I don't believe they are smart enough to know how guilty they make me feel about leaving them alone, but it works. My husband and I haven't been anywhere together for more than a long weekend for years. We're tied down to a damned cat ranch. As much as I adore them, these are the last pets we will ever adopt.
152. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 6:38:23 PM
Time to call in house sitters, Blue...
153. dusty - 2/7/2001 6:45:09 PM
pseudoerasmus
Would you recommend the Trans-Siberian railroad as a trip? I have some friends who enjoy train trips. I don't know that this has occurred to them.
154. sakonige - 2/7/2001 6:57:42 PM
Have you had a housesitter take care of a home for you, Judith? I've though about that option, but I wouldn't know where to begin. We have an office I can lock personal stuff up in, but the idea of having a stranger living in our house while our belonging are still here makes me uneasy.
155. pseudoerasmus - 2/7/2001 7:04:26 PM
dusty: I would recommend the Moscow-Beijing route (aka Trans-Mongolian). But break up your trip into several parts and do side trips, particularly at Lake Baikal. It's worth seeing at least one of the previously off-limits military-industrial complex cities in Siberia too, like Krasnoyarsk, if you want to see how dreary classical Soviet urban planning can really be.
Of course another option is to take the river cruise from St Petersburg to Moscow, all the way down to Astrakhan in the northern Caucasus. It's a kind of prolonged tour of Russia's architectural history, from Rococo riverfront palaces outside St Petersburg, to the old semi-oriental churches of Old Muscovy, to the Muslim Tatar structures in Kazan and Astrakhan.
156. jexster - 2/7/2001 7:09:44 PM
I've been to Britain, France, Italy(Firenze!), Germany, Swizterland, Austria, Canada, Singapore, Indonesia, Hong Kong and Japan.
The latter were most interesting because both business and pleasure were involved. The business portion of the Toyko trip was, of course, red carpet - that no big, but it was also high-level and ego stroking....
Will reprise when I have more time....
157. jexster - 2/7/2001 7:11:48 PM
But now I'm home and too poor to take serious advantage
101 Reasons Why SF is Nation's Culinary Mecca
Republicans not welcome
158. jexster - 2/7/2001 7:12:53 PM
Most jealous of Pseudo and a RW friend for Russian adventures....I am a russian history freak
159. CalGal - 2/7/2001 8:11:41 PM
Question: has anyone been to either St. Maarten or St. Croix?
160. ScottLoar - 2/7/2001 9:02:25 PM
I'm gathering together my thoughts on luggage.
161. Shannon - 2/7/2001 9:39:22 PM
I'm also jealous of Russian adventures.
Oh, face it, I'm jealous of most adventures. My only travel outside the US was to Canada last summer. My kids are still a bit young for long trips, so it'll probably be a while before I have any faraway adventures. I'm just reading this thread to live vicariously through y'all. But my kids will travel more than I did. They already have, relative to their ages.
162. JadeGold1 - 2/7/2001 9:52:13 PM
St. Croix?
Touristy place. I'd recommend the scuba trip to Buck's Island. The best restaurant is Tivoli's, all the locals eat there.
Best legal help is Bruce Bennett, Esq.
163. JudithAtHome - 2/7/2001 11:07:22 PM
Blue:
Have you had a housesitter take care of a home for you, Judith?
I've had someone stay while we were away but it was a family friend whom we trusted a lot; in fact, he'd lived with us before. I would only do it again if it were someone we knew...I doubt I'd feel comfortable having anyone from an agency...doesn't matter if they are bonded or not.
I was thinking more of the cats and their trauma...just seemed like the easier thing to suggest for them but maybe not the easiest thing to actually do.
164. sakonige - 2/7/2001 11:54:50 PM
Judith, I am envious when I hear about others' travels, but I don't regret the commitment I've made to take care of my pets all their lives. I can't guess what might have happened if I could travel now, or what will happen while I'm here. All I can do is follow the course I've promised to stay with integrity.
165. DaveM - 2/8/2001 3:09:54 AM
I intend to spend a month in Ireland when I get out of school - Nov/Dec of 2002. I have lots of family there, my grandparents have gone there every other year for as long as I can remember, and I like whiskey.
166. jonesatlaw - 2/8/2001 3:10:18 AM
Diva- the Yankee fan comment was just for you and a couple of guys I knew in Long Island. Barbs dipped in envy from a poor Cubs fan. I am facing life with an only son, now 11, who is a Cards fan. Oh, how sharper than a serpant's tooth an ungrateful child. I console myself that at least it's not the Yankees;-) Face it, with their recent success alone its easy for others to hate them.
Back on topic. Tons of people go the the Grand Canyon, and see the south rim. I agreee that the desert side is beautiful, but the real charm is on the North Rim. It's really wonderful to come out of western high country pine forest and meadows and have the scenery open up to the canyon. Accomodations in the park are cheap and the crowds are smaller. In fact, all the major western national parks are great. As a kid we would take a trip to see the relatives in California every other year at least. Dad would route us through the parks. I was old enough to be really intrigued by Mesa Verde and archeology, Zion and its natural wonders etc. Great stuff and great memories.
167. LohrM - 2/8/2001 10:12:44 AM
St.-Maarten was fun...
Luggage, Scott... Luggage is one of those evil traps laid to destroy one's soul. Too heavy, too light, not durable, whatever... Like packing: you never get it right.
168. LohrM - 2/8/2001 10:14:31 AM
I'll agree with PE on getting from Petersburg to Moscow...
A wonderful trek-- horseback tours vineyard to vineyard in eastern Hungary, through the Tokaj country.
169. JadeGold1 - 2/8/2001 10:16:15 AM
Always take your sticks.
Always.
The one time you don't will cause you more regret than all the times you brought them but didn't get a chance to use them.
170. Francis Urquhart - 2/8/2001 10:21:20 AM
Heaven approaches
36 holes Seabrook
18 holes Wild Dunes Links
36 holes Dunes West
18 holes Kiawah-The Ocean Course
171. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 10:30:05 AM
... Like packing: you never get it right.
Not true...I pack well and with just enough stuff to be easily handled.
172. Jenerator - 2/8/2001 10:45:56 AM
The worst mistake I made going to England was bringing too much luggage. I thought that I had to pack for a year, so I brought clothes that weren't practical, but I didn't know that until after I got there. I bought the largest regulation duffle bag with two wheels and a handle. It;s big enough to give any hockey player a run for the money.
Now, picture flying all night, arriving in London with a 110 pound duffle bag longer than you are, another suitcase, a carryon, a purse and an overcoat, and get to Oxford University.
Remember, there are no elevators or escalators for trains.
173. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 10:50:04 AM
Jen:
Pack your bag; cut that to half. Pack it again and cut THAT to half.
After you arrive, if you run short, buy more.
174. Jenerator - 2/8/2001 10:54:15 AM
Judith,
I travel much lighter after that initial experience. In fact, the last time I went to France for three days, I brought a small carryon with toiletries, two shirts, two undies, and that's it!
The best thing I did before I left for a year was write down the name of my cosmetics and lotions and leave them at home. That way, if I ran out, I could buy more at American prices. Lotion is pretty expensive in the UK and it is a necessity.
175. LohrM - 2/8/2001 11:07:29 AM
*sigh*... i've never been able to pack lightly enough... i was brought up to always have a spare set of...everything. ("what if you get a stain on that shirt?")
176. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 11:09:41 AM
I pack so lightly the guy at the check-in counter asked me how long I planned to be in Germany and when I answered him, he said "Where's the rest of your luggage?"
177. theDiva - 2/8/2001 11:29:20 AM
Jones
#166
My God, my heart goes out to you. Well, if you ever visit St. Louis for a Cards game (GETTING BACK ON TOPIC HERE), youse oughta look up the Rivs, they are very entertaining people and sure do know their baseball. And the stadium is beautiful.
178. LohrM - 2/8/2001 2:28:58 PM
Shirts, spares, t-shirts, jeans, socks, underwear, blazer just in case, extra shoes... I can't be like my Inamorata, who showed up for a week in St.-Maarten with (1) bikini (1) pair of shorts (2) tank tops and (1) t-shirt minidress. And I never travel without books, notebooks, and my small stuffed Mongolian Pony.
179. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 3:54:30 PM
For any overseas trip above 10 days I pack:
5 pair of underwear
5 pairs of socks
5 shirts - three for dress, two casual
2 pair of dress slacks
1 pair of dress shoes
1 belt
2 ties
1 sportcoat or suit, depending on locale
1 sweater, or dress sweatshirt even better
1 handkerchief (absolutely necessary to wipe the sweat)
toilet articles to include baking soda (the most indispensible toilet article as bath soak or toothpaste) and always, always aspirin
1 pair of swimming trunks, goggles and earplugs
1 computer with accessories in a separate case
2 credit cards (Mastercard and Visa, never American Express!)
Cash totalling US$500.00
Two good books, one preferably about the area to which you're travelling (historical or documentive), and the other preferably in a language other than one's mother tongue (but understandable of course)
This is in addition to what I wear on the plane - lime green jumpsuit with orange platform heels.
180. Jenerator - 2/8/2001 3:56:17 PM
What about the giant afro wig?
181. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 3:57:25 PM
Scott:
dress sweatshirt even better
What is this? I'm serious...what is the difference in a sweatshirt and a dress sweatshirt? Great list, by the way.
182. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 3:58:03 PM
Jenerator, my balding pate above a 6'2" frame is enough contrast in Asia, but if I were to meet you I'd insert a codpiece.
183. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:00:16 PM
JudithAtHome, a sweatshirt is one that looks like it's worn about the home on weekends. A dress sweatshirt is of a colour and cut that allows you into good restaurants with naught but glances of admiration.
Oh, yeah, I'd see you with the inserted codpiece too.
184. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 4:04:51 PM
Okay, I see what you mean...one of those Ralph Lauren type sweatshirts, as opposed to one from Hawaii with KamOnaWanaLeiU on it.
185. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:04:55 PM
I'd one sweatshirt, mottled light grey with purple trim, with raised lettering "Laissez les bons temps rouler". Fractured French for sure, but it did invite comment in the evenings. Even helped advance my prurient interests, if you catch my drift.
186. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 4:06:04 PM
I do, sir, I do...
187. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:06:11 PM
Actually, if in France the Hawaiian will go further than Ralph's. Always look to the locale. Remember, what is exotic is erotic.
188. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 4:07:43 PM
Ha! if in France the Hawaiian will go further
Mine certainly does!
189. Jenerator - 2/8/2001 4:10:17 PM
Scott,
Do you still wear tights, or is the codpiece necessary for all outings?
Should I ever meet you, I promise to wear my smoking jacket with ascot, daisy dukes, socks and flip-flops.
190. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:14:17 PM
I well remember my wife in India, a Chinese woman but wearing gold Rajistan jewelry and a French pants suit, severely tailored, almost as if for a man. The Indian women loved it. Such a juxtaposition of the familiar against the unexpected appeals to most of us.
191. Jenerator - 2/8/2001 4:15:40 PM
Scott,
You understand my fashion sense like no one else!
192. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:17:09 PM
Jenerator, be assured that I am a man of some experience and catholic taste who can look beyond the trappings to see the bod underneath.
Catch my drift?
Oh, by the way, I dress well. Not flashy, but well, and never to the embarrassment of my date. You can surely appreciate that now, can't you?
193. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:18:45 PM
Jenerator, there are few sights more erotic than a woman fully "fem" yet dressed in a masculine manner and attended by very "fem" jewelry.
194. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:23:09 PM
I would dress, for example, in a dark blue navy, double-breasted suit with thin chalkstripes,light blue shirt with an orange, paisley tie and off-brown Italian, patterned wingtips. I offer a cigarette case holding Dutch cigars.
195. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 4:25:11 PM
That's why I love my tuxedo, Scott...
196. sakonige - 2/8/2001 4:25:36 PM
I love the reactions I get to jeans and a denim jacket with native beaded earings. It really makes men stop and stare. It would be the perfect outfit for travel in Europe and Asia.
197. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 4:28:00 PM
I think you're right, Blue...especially in Germany and France.
198. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:43:09 PM
Oh, but I do want you babes before me!
199. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 4:47:32 PM
Does anyone remember the movie Flashdance? The babe dresses in a tuxedo, and removes the jacket at dinner to reveal only a bowtie, bib and cuffs! I drool.
Once I saw a woman at a very private affair dressed in heels, black motorcycle jacket, dark glasses and little else.
Some said she was overdressed.
200. Jenerator - 2/8/2001 5:09:01 PM
Okay, my favorite Scott Loar type outfit:
Votre Nom single breasted black suit.
Low-cut (but tasteful) shawl-necked creme body suit from Cache.
Charles David polished leather and silver buckle belts.
3 1/2 inch Charles David stilletos with ankle strap.
No jewelry except for a silver Yurman ring on my middle finger.
201. Jenerator - 2/8/2001 5:09:57 PM
belt, singular.
202. JJBiener - 2/8/2001 5:54:48 PM
Diva - Well, if you ever visit St. Louis for a Cards game (GETTING BACK ON TOPIC HERE), youse oughta look up the Rivs
Ahem!
203. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 6:05:45 PM
Jenerator;
Good look. Show the cleavage if you've got it, or dare to go bare underneath the jacket.
204. ScottLoar - 2/8/2001 6:08:31 PM
The subject is travelling for business and pleasure. I should have guessed some would neglect packing or think dressing off-topic. So, let's have a few comments on the delights of Topeka.
205. JJBiener - 2/8/2001 6:14:20 PM
Scott - As host of this thread, I have set the paramater fairly loose. I see no reason not to include packing as a part of the discussion. However, the mental image of Jen in a black suit jacket with nothing underneath . . . is it getting warm in here?
206. JudithAtHome - 2/8/2001 6:15:23 PM
Well, it's one thing that might make Topeka delightful...
207. JJBiener - 2/8/2001 6:19:37 PM
Judith - It would definitely be an improvement.
208. DanDillon - 2/9/2001 1:09:46 PM
If you must discuss either fashion or Topeka in the Travel thread, choose fashion. Please.
Wonderful info on Hawaii. Thanks, all -- especially CG. We'll make a trip to Hana, but we'll immerse ourselves in the luxury of Wailean hyper-develomement.
209. DanDillon - 2/9/2001 1:10:01 PM
If you must discuss either fashion or Topeka in the Travel thread, choose fashion. Please.
Wonderful info on Hawaii. Thanks, all -- especially CG. We'll make a trip to Hana, but we'll immerse ourselves in the luxury of Wailean hyper-development.
210. JJBiener - 2/10/2001 6:01:28 PM
Dan - Were we discussing fashion? I thought we were discussing scantily clad women.
Maybe it was just me. What was the topic of this tread again? Who is the host around here?
211. DanDillon - 2/10/2001 6:24:22 PM
Were we discussing fashion? I thought we were discussing scantily clad women.
There's a difference?
What was the topic of this tread again?
Jen. Nude.
Who is the host around here?
You. (Makes us parasites.)
212. ScottLoar - 2/11/2001 8:47:21 AM
"Tread". Yes, that's what it has become.
213. janjon - 2/12/2001 1:06:11 PM
Jenerator - another thought/comment about Puerto Plata. You might do well when making hotel reservations to inquire whether the one you are picking is one that accepts large tour groups. As I recall (and it has been perhaps 10-12 years since I was there = and I was there as a guest of the Government and thus got special treatment), especially when at the airport, there were an immense number of tour groups, from places like the Netherlands or Germany, arriving on 747s. In other words, try to get into one of the smaller hotels.
214. Jenerator - 2/12/2001 1:09:18 PM
We have an all-inclusive package deal for one of the five-star hotels. Granted, we'll know upon arrival if it's that nice. I'm excited, I just hope it's warm!
If we're bombarded with fellow tourists, we may have to spend our waking hours elsewhere.
215. PelleNilsson - 2/14/2001 4:12:41 PM
I hope this thread is the place to post rather pointless, rambling travel stories. This one is inspired (if that is the word) by the discussion about raw food in the Cafe.
The story begins in Warsaw in the spring of 1990. A team of from my company were doing a feasibility study for the World Bank. We did well: a colleague and I were offered jobs with the Bank. He accepted, I declined. Instead I found myself employed as an advisor, part-time, to Polish Telecom on procurement and implementation and in 91-92 I spent on average two weeks every second month in Warsaw, theoretically reporting to the Minister of Communications but in practice working with Tadeusz who became my friend.
After a while my visits followed a ritual. I arrived at lunchtime and was met at the airport by Tadeusz's driver who took me to the hotel to get rid of my suitcase and then to the office. Tadeusz had a weakness for voluptuous secretaries (who hasn't?) and on my entering he would send one of them off for a pitcher of orange juice. I would then bring out the bottle of Absolute I had bought in Copenhagen and we would while the afternoon away speaking about what needed to be done and how to do it. Everything was very political back then and one had to tread carefully when managing a $150 million project.
216. PelleNilsson - 2/14/2001 4:14:17 PM
Then it was all work until the day before I left, when we took the afternoon off for a long lunch invariably consisting of Beef Tartar, beer and half a litre of vodka (a little less than a pint). Beef Tartar is raw meat. In its most refined form it is scraped off, by a very sharp knife, from fillet of beef, but in Poland it was just ordinary minced meat. It is served with finely chopped onion, capers, salted gherkins. red beets, mustard and a raw egg yolk. In superior restaurants the maitre will mix it for you, elsewhere you do it yourself.
So we mixed our Tartars, drunk vodka and discussed this and that. Tadeusz didn't speak a lot of English so we had to take an interpreter along. Tadeusz had two on call, one a good-looking young girl who eventually married a Canadian and disappeared to points west, the other a middle-aged lady of ravaged good looks with connections into the Polish intelligentsia which is perhaps the most intelligentialist intelligentia in the world.
Those were interesting times.
217. ScottLoar - 2/14/2001 4:17:23 PM
I'd take the middle-aged Polish lady of ravaged good looks.
218. ScottLoar - 2/14/2001 4:22:34 PM
The Vietnamese variant of steak tartar has the raw beef very, very finely sliced into strips, garnished with cilantro, accompanied by leafy, raw vegetables and sliced onions but - and this is the exquisite difference - fresh limes are squeezed over all.
The Korean variant is tartar as you would know it but served with fresh apple slices.
219. Fielding - 2/14/2001 4:22:56 PM
Pelle:
Nice story. Do you ever hear from Tadeusz?
220. janjon - 2/14/2001 4:23:47 PM
beets in steak tartare?
and, yes, I have a very appealing image re that middle-aged Polish lady.
221. PelleNilsson - 2/14/2001 4:30:22 PM
Fielding
We exchange e-mails from time to time.
222. sakonige - 2/14/2001 5:45:23 PM
Beef Tartar is raw meat. In its most refined form it is scraped off, by a very sharp knife, from fillet of beef, but in Poland it was just ordinary minced meat. It is served with finely chopped onion, capers, salted gherkins, red beets, mustard and a raw egg yolk.
That sounds absolutely revolting. But I suppose you wouldn't need a laxative for six months or so after washing it down with a liter of vodka.
223. PelleNilsson - 2/17/2001 2:07:51 PM
Indiana wrote:
Sweden has Abisko, though, and I thought that was pretty nice, but it wasn't exactly warm, even in June.
Please tell us more about your trip to Sweden. When, where, why?
224. CalGal - 2/17/2001 2:12:58 PM
I love beef tartare, as well as carpaccio. Does anyone know which came first, or if they both developed independently?
225. PelleNilsson - 2/17/2001 2:27:29 PM
First things first. What is carpaccio?
226. CalGal - 2/17/2001 2:52:01 PM
Thinly sliced raw beef with lemon juice, olive oil, and capers.
227. CalGal - 2/17/2001 2:54:11 PM
Beef tenderloin, I should specify. And paper thin slices. It's lovely. You can also get tuna carpaccio nowadays.
228. CalGal - 2/17/2001 3:01:17 PM
Actually, I went looking for the definition and found that carpaccio is relatively new (random link):
Like Kleenex, carpaccio, which was invented at Harry's Bar in Venice, has taken on generic meaning. But unlike Kleenex, which always means a facial tissue, carpaccio's original definition is on the verge of disappearing.
Carpaccio came on the scene in 1950. How often can you pinpoint a dish like that? The occasion was an exhibition of the works of Vittore Carpaccio, an Italian Renaissance painter who was known for using lots of red contrasted with white. Giuseppe Cipriani, who founded Harry's Bar, created the dish for the exhibition with a customer, who could not eat cooked meat, in mind.
Then, and until perhaps 10 or 15 years ago, carpaccio was strictly a plate of raw, paper-thin beef, either tenderloin or sirloin, trimmed of all fat and drizzled with a mayonnaise-based sauce. Now, however, carpaccio is not necessarily made with beef, and when it is, it is often served cooked or partially cooked. In some confusion with sashimi, fish carpaccios also have become popular. And they, too, might be cooked rather than raw. And as for the garnish, anything goes.
229. PelleNilsson - 2/17/2001 3:16:01 PM
So that's cleared up then.
230. Indiana Jones - 2/18/2001 10:37:37 AM
Pelle: I was in Sweden in May 1993 as part of a (pleasure) trip crisscrossing Scandinavia. Somewhere I have the little rail pass flier they give you to record all your uses of it, but I can't locate it. My journal entries include these places: May 17 Copenhagen, May 18 Copenhagen, May 21 Stockholm, May 22 Stockholm, May 24 Helsinki (I remember taking a cruise from Stockholm to Helsinki aboard the Viking(?) line--sort of a floating mall, but fun at night to sit on the deck and watch the sea churn by), May 26 Oalu, May 27 Haparandara, May 28 Abisko.
In Abisko we had midnight sun. Another memory was running into some Swedish schoolteachers who were traveling on a field trip with their students (which sounded like a great educational experience). I was backpacking my way across and because of the usual schedule mixups, money exchange problems, etc. for some reason I arrived at that hostel at an inconvenient time for eating. (Europeans also have a lot of holidays that they shut everything down for, it seems.) Anyway, the schoolteachers shared their--yes, it's true--Swedish meatballs and noodles with me. Very salty, but very welcome at the time.
Altogether, I thought Sweden was an enjoyable, but expensive country--even though it was in a recession at the time and the exchange rate was pretty good: about 7 crowns(kroner?) to the dollar. I do remember, however, that the schoolteachers were horrified and disbelieving that it was possible an American schoolteacher had to worry about guns in the classroom.
Abisko was gorgeous.
231. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 12:09:26 PM
You can also get tuna carpaccio nowadays.
I'm not sure why that wouldn't be sashimi unless it is really "carp"accio.
232. CalGal - 2/18/2001 12:14:23 PM
Ha, clever.
But that was just for the joke, right? You do know that tuna carpaccio (you can also find salmon carpaccio), is quite often served?
233. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 12:20:03 PM
Yes....I may live in Texas but I'm a little more sophisticated than your usual inhabitant of this place who thinks anything that once lived in water must be battered and fried and drenched in Tabasco and washed down with Dr.Pepper.
234. CalGal - 2/18/2001 12:25:58 PM
No, I knew that--really I did. That's why I was a bit puzzled by your comment at first, until I got the joke.
BTW, sashimi isn't just any raw fish, is it? Or if it is, it is also a specific preparation?
235. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 12:31:42 PM
Sashimi is any raw fish...served without rice.
I do believe it has a special cutting style but primarily it is different from sushi because it is served without rice.
236. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 12:34:10 PM
I should qualify this as: this is what was told to me by Japanese friends and by my Hawaiian relatives...I might be wrong. (After the rice incident with PE, I'm always hesitant to say much about Japanese food.)
237. Erin R. - 2/18/2001 12:34:28 PM
I'm off to Dallas next week. Will make the third time I've been there without actually seeing the city.
238. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 12:36:36 PM
Erin:
Is there some specific reason you don't see Dallas when you come here?
239. Erin R. - 2/18/2001 12:38:17 PM
I'm in meetings, and don't have much of a chance to explore. I usually get there in the evening, have my meeting for a day or so, then leave for the airport.
I will say one thing: the concessions there are better than the ones at Midway!
240. CalGal - 2/18/2001 1:26:46 PM
I've been to the Dallas airport a zillion times, but except for 18 hours in Austin for a business meeting (that I have completely forgotten in every detail), I've never spent time in Texas.
I hated the Dallas airport until I was able to figure out how to get from terminal to terminal without using that damn tram. Jesus, I came close to missing so many flights with that contraption I get stressed just remembering it.
241. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 1:30:10 PM
I never get in that thing...I'd rather schlep my bags on foot than use that tram.
That airport is the most inconvenient place to change flights in the world.
242. CalGal - 2/18/2001 1:42:25 PM
Spawn and I almost missed the last flight out on Thanksgiving Day, thanks to a late connection and that damn tram--the gate attendant, faced with five furious (and panting) connecting passengers, brought the flight back to the gate, getting permission from air traffic control. That was the last straw, for me. I would always have walked before that episode, but I had been told once that it was literally impossible to walk through the terminals. Well, Spawn and I on our way back studied the inflight magazine's map and decided that was just silly. Since we had more time on the return, we decided to brave the road less taken.
The funny thing is that we haven't been back to Dallas since; we found another way to get to Kansas City. But we're prepared if we ever return!
243. Erin R. - 2/18/2001 1:52:40 PM
I don't like the Dallas airport, in general. There is usually a huge backup at the security check-in, and what's with those airlocks you have to use to get out of the airport? And why is the airport so far from the city?
I've also flown through Phoenix, and don't care for it much either. I love Midway--it's like a bus station. O'Hare is large, but at least isn't confusing the way Dallas is. San Jose and San Francisco are good. San Jose is a pain for me in that there aren't many (or any) flights directly from Midway to San Jose.
244. Autodaffy - 2/18/2001 1:59:46 PM
If, you mean DFW, then remember the FW. The airport is between the two. I suppose it was a matter of needing two funding sources.
The worst aspect of DFW used to be baggage delivery. I'd say the usual wait for checked luggage was over one half hour.
245. CalGal - 2/18/2001 2:00:46 PM
San Jose is only 5 minutes from my apartment, which is nice. The bad thing about San Jose is at certain times of the day the bottleneck into the airport is freakishly large. It doesn't even have anything to do with time of day--you can go at rush hour and find a reasonable stop and go, or get there at 12 noon on Sunday and have it be backed up to the freeway exit.
San Francisco has finally addressed some of their similar bottlenecks--the thing to remember there is that it is often better to park, even if you're just dropping someone off. The $1 or 2 is well spent--you can miss a flight if you try to drive to the dropoff point at the wrong time.
246. Erin R. - 2/18/2001 2:06:23 PM
The cab fair to Sunnyvale from SF is horrible--like $60. For me, it's a bit of a toss-up between the two.
247. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 2:09:12 PM
Daffy:
Baggage delivery time at DFW is much better now...even with all the delays, it's under 20 minutes.
That might be because they caught the theft ring which had been operating with abandon last year...probably promptness took a backseat to rifling through the bags with them.
248. Autodaffy - 2/18/2001 2:10:47 PM
CalGal's post reminds me of what is best about DFW: if you are just dropping someone off or picking them up on the sidewalk outside a terminal, it is a breeze. Coming in you see the flight's terminal and gate number. Traffic there is unlikely to be the snarl it can be at LGA or O'Hare because there are many separate terminals. Everyone in the airport is not unloading or loading in the same quarter mile of curb. Hell, if the person flying is healthy, you hardly need to go below 25 mph for a pickup or dropoff. The toll booths in and out are a slowdown.
249. Erin R. - 2/18/2001 2:11:04 PM
Another pet peeve of mine in airports: most do not check to make sure you're not carrying off some else's baggage.
250. Frankster - 2/18/2001 2:25:21 PM
Stupid question, but here it goes: Once someone or some entity ( travel agent ) reserves a flight, is the price quoted for that flight locked in at the time of the reservation ? In other words, how long will an airline hold a reservation for one without receiving payment, before one is purged, if such thing happens ?
Signed,
An ignorant traveller
251. Shannon - 2/18/2001 2:33:19 PM
I think most airlines will hold for 24 hours.
252. Fielding - 2/18/2001 2:52:57 PM
Sorry if this sounds condescending:
Sashimi is any raw fish or seafood prepared (cut) in accordance with tradition.
Sushi is fish or seafood (or almost anything), usually raw, that is served in portions paired with vinegared rice.
Sashimi cannot be sliced thin like carpaccio. There is, however, a carpaccio-like japanese dish called uzu zukuri, in which paper-thin slices of raw fish (often fluke or sea bass) are arranged aesthetically on a plate, often in the shape of a flower. The thin slices are dipped in a ponzu sauce.
253. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 2:58:47 PM
Fielding:
That's what I thought...I think they are calling thinly sliced raw tuna or salmon carpaccio because they are using oil and capers and lemon with it? To me, sashimi is raw fish cut the way the sushi chef does it. My mother-in-law also cuts some wicked sashimi.
254. PelleNilsson - 2/18/2001 4:18:32 PM
Indiana
Thanks for sharing. It seems you have seen more of Scandinavia than I. I have never been to Finland except for a couple of business trips to Helsinki, nor have I been as far north as Abisko.
These days the Ice Hotel in Jukkasjärvi is a hot tourist destination. 
This is the lobby area. The rooms are also ice constructions. Sleeping bags are included.
255. Autodaffy - 2/18/2001 4:18:58 PM
Speaking of airports--About twenty years ago I flew into the Pullman (WA)-Moscow (Idaho) airport in about a ten seater prop. Excuse me, the pilot, rolling to the terminal, announced our arrival at the Pullman-Moscow "International" Airport. My luggage, I learned there, had been left behind in Seattle or Spokane or where ever I had come from, because if those props had too many passengers they just threw out luggage on the runway before takeoff. I went to the Hertz counter for my rental car in the terminal, but had to wait while the rental agent finished at the Avis counter and moved over to Hertz. I went to my motel and the next day I got a call to tell me my luggage had arrived. I drove back to the terminal, which was devoid of any other human, to find my bag sitting in the middle of the floor all by itself. My other lasting memory of Pullman was that the tv in the motel was cable and ran one channel from the university that had some doctor carefully dissecting and describing the calf of a human corpse.
256. JudithAtHome - 2/18/2001 4:24:08 PM
Our luggage arrived before we did at the Hilo Airport when we transferred there from Oahu...they had a roped off area outside where everyones luggage (and golf clubs) were laying around on the ground. This was in front of the airport where people were being let off and picked up the entire time...there was one guy inside the roped off area with head phones on eating his lunch...we walked up, shoved our bags and clubs into the rental car and drove away while he was shaking soy sauce all over his rice.
257. Frankster - 2/18/2001 4:29:46 PM
Shannon,
( Judith already knows about this )
Here's the deal, and why I asked the question:
Over a month ago, I contacted a travel site I found in the local Travel section of the Sunday paper ( There are tons of them in our paper ) that advertised low travel fares to London and Paris among other foreign destinations. The fares to Paris grabbed me so I made the pitch for them. I contacted the website, and they responded with a phone number of an agent for which to call. I called the next day, and after finally coming to some agreement on the dates and departure times, I gave him a credit card number, which he claimed he needed for which to hold the seat, and then promptly mailed a check to pay for it.
My check cleared over two weeks ago, and yet no tickets. I have called and e-mailed him, but he is never around when I call. All I have from him so far is a confirmation number for the airline -- that's it.
I've called the airline ( I just did so again just a few minutes ago ) numerous times and they have me on there files for the flight I reserved, but with no record of payment. The operator a little while ago mentioned that those seats might have been bought as part of one big block of seats over a year ago, so thereby, payment wouldn't necessarily have to be shown as it normally would.
Should I be worried ? It has been exactly a month since I put in the order and I am suppose to depart on March the 30th. Has anyone out there had a similar experience ?
( If I go with a website again, and that's a mighty big if, I think I'll go with one well known such as Travelocity )
258. Shannon - 2/19/2001 8:44:38 AM
Ah, well, I can understand being a little edgy about that. But if the airline still has your seat reserved, I'm sure it'll be OK. Does the agent you talked to have a supervisor or something you can talk to?
The first time I flew with electronic tickets, I was irrationally concerned. Just didn't seem right, not having that stack of cardboard tickets. Not that those ever seemed very "official" anyway.
259. JudithAtHome - 2/20/2001 12:48:49 PM
Frankster:
When you check in, those little bottles of Febreze are "travel sized" for a reason...they don't take up much room at all. :-)
260. CalGal - 2/20/2001 12:53:57 PM
Question: I'm looking for someplace fun to go on vacation for 5-6 days (maybe more). The general areas I'm thinking of are California, the weird boxy western states (Utah, Arizona, New Mexico), or tiptoeing into Mexico.
I'm looking for suggestions of specific places to check out. I like areas with daytrips--I prefer activities or sites of historic interest, but panoramic vistas off the beaten path interest me as well.
261. Shannon - 2/20/2001 12:59:12 PM
the weird boxy western states (Utah, Arizona, New Mexico),
So does that mean that Colorado and Wyoming are the normal boxy western states?
I'm trying to decide what to do vacation-wise this year too. I think I want to do a long weekend with the husband, and then something with the whole family.
262. CalGal - 2/20/2001 1:12:14 PM
No, they're the boxy states in the middle. They're too far east to be west for this geocentric provincial.
How old are your two again? Have you considered Disneyworld?
263. Fielding - 2/20/2001 1:49:04 PM
CalGal:
Have you been to Seattle/Vancouver/Victoria? You get your spectacular vistas, along with convenience and local color.
You can take a ferry from Seattle to Victoria. There are also some interesting Islands in Elliott Bay.
Seattle has a unique and interesting tour of a lost city from 100 years ago beneath the streets of modern Seattle. The tour is literally underground.
There are wineries, mountains and hiking. There is skiing. There are touristy things too.
Vancouver is a fun place to visit in its own right.
You can easily make a week long vacation out of those three cities.
264. CalGal - 2/20/2001 1:56:42 PM
Fielding,
I thought of that Seattle--in fact, I have several friends up there. I may return to it as a default. However, I've been there lots of times and am specifically targeting a different area.
But I haven't really been to Vancouver proper--that's a thought. The only time I visited was when I drove from Seattle to Vancouver and back to see how quickly I could make the trip.
265. CalGal - 2/20/2001 1:57:02 PM
Scratch the "that" before Seattle.
266. Fielding - 2/20/2001 1:57:43 PM
Depending on your tolerance for speeding tickets, you can do it in 2 1/2 hours.
267. CalGal - 2/20/2001 1:59:28 PM
Round trip, or one way? I had the needle at over 100 the entire time, but I've never been sure if I actually made it all the way into Vancouver or if it has a suburb of some sort. How far over the border is it?
268. Shannon - 2/20/2001 2:06:40 PM
CalGal, thanks for that clarification of your geocentricism.
We spent a few days in Vancouver last summer. I really liked it.
My kids are 2 and 4. Well, they both have birthdays in May so by summer they'd be 3 and 5. I think Disney would be better in a year or two. The 3YO is still a tad young, I think. She'd do OK, but I think she'd enjoy it more if she were a little older.
269. CalGal - 2/20/2001 2:16:27 PM
I apologize for continuing to ask. Susanne's kids (both girls) are near that age, and for the life of me I can't keep the ages filed away appropriately, and as a result I forget how old any of the four are.
It might be hard on you with two kids that age, but believe me when I say your kids will love every single minute of it. I first took Spawn when he was 16 months old (by myself). He also went at 2.5, 4, 5, 6, 7-9, and just recently. He has memories still from every time but the very first. I've also gone with my sister's kids at that age, and they love it.
However, taking two kids that age is very tough on the parents. I have almost always taken Spawn by myself, but two kids under 5--even with two parents--can sometimes be exponentially tougher.
270. Shannon - 2/20/2001 2:20:58 PM
CalGal,
Very poor form, getting your minions confused.
Yes, I do think that one kid with one parent would be easier than two kids and two parents in a lot of ways. They tend to feed off each other, making the whole greater than the sum of its parts. I've also found that they behave better for one parent in some ways, and husband says the same thing.
271. CalGal - 2/20/2001 2:26:18 PM
Yep. And then there's jealousy--"how come he got to go on Dumbo twice????" "But sweetie, you wanted to see the Little Mermaid show!" "But you didn't tell me that I could have gone on Dumbo!"
Much wailing and gnashing of teeth. And the kids are crying, too.
272. Fielding - 2/20/2001 2:27:17 PM
IIRC, it is less than an hour from the border.
Vancouver has a couple of nice neighborhoods (the "gaslight district", a robust Chinatown), a downtown, Stanley Park, a Japanese garden, a few museums, etc.
273. JudithAtHome - 2/20/2001 2:35:16 PM
I would rather have wisdom teeth extracted with no anesthetic than go to Disneyland...
274. CalGal - 2/20/2001 2:40:35 PM
Judith,
I said Disneyworld--Disneyland is fun for a day or two, but not worth a week visit. But DisneyWorld is a great deal of fun and not nearly the hell that others make it.
275. Fielding - 2/20/2001 2:43:24 PM
CalGal:
I've never been there, but I understand that Taos/Santa Fe is also a really good place to visit for a week.
276. CalGal - 2/20/2001 2:44:18 PM
Fielding,
Yes, that's high on my list. Open question to anyone who has been there: what is the weather like in Taos in April?
277. Jenerator - 2/20/2001 2:44:43 PM
Cal,
Will you be taking Spawn with you on your mini vacation? I will ask Marshame about a place we went to in Arizona one year that was one of the most amazing places I saw as a kid. (I can't remember the name of the desert!)
278. CalGal - 2/20/2001 2:48:01 PM
No, this is my non-Spawn vacation--I started the tradition last year with my Hawaii jaunt. I will hopefully be taking a pal along. Spawn and I will go somewhere with family later in the summer; I am thinking of someplace in the Caribbean, if I can book the time.
I do want to go to the Grand Canyon and general environment with Spawn, but I'm not sure I want to cope with it in the summer months--wouldn't it be hot? So we'll probably do that in February one year. The GC is also on my list as a possibility for my April trip.
279. JudithAtHome - 2/20/2001 2:49:22 PM
CalGal:
My idea of fun is not standing in line with a thousand other people who are all wearing some sort of Disney logo'ed clothing waiting to ride a 45 second loopdeloop and then moving on to the next one with the herd.
I know, I know..there is educational stuff to be had...the main drawback for me is the teeming mass of humanity. Deliver me from crowds, anywhere.
280. CalGal - 2/20/2001 2:51:29 PM
Judith,
That's not my idea of fun, either. Neither is "educational stuff to be had"--ick.
I don't wear Disney, as a general rule--except their hats. I always buy a baseball cap or something to wear to keep the sun out.
But it's quite possible to miss lines at Disneyworld, constantly. I will only occasionally do lines. Disney also makes waiting in line more diverting than any other amusement park I can think of--they use the money they are gouging out of you to very good effect.
281. Fielding - 2/20/2001 2:53:22 PM
Oh, you're bringing a CalGalPal.
(Sorry, I had to get that in. snicker).
282. JudithAtHome - 2/20/2001 2:53:45 PM
I just hate the entire concept of "amusement" parks...period. I don't like manufactured fun geared to the lowest common denominator.
283. CalGal - 2/20/2001 2:56:10 PM
"Lowest common denominator"? Really.
Well, if they ever find a way to put kickass roller coasters or water slides in a French restaurant, you be sure and let me know.
284. Frankster - 2/20/2001 2:56:44 PM
Cal,
If you ever decide on San Diego for a few days and need a guide...? :-)
Judith,
The worst kind are those thrown up overnight in some school parking lot. You'll never see me on one of those "rides".
285. JudithAtHome - 2/20/2001 3:06:55 PM
"Lowest common denominator"? Really.
Well, if they ever find a way to put kickass roller coasters or water slides in a French restaurant, you be sure and let me know.
I think they tried that with EuroDisney and went broke.
I didn't mean to be snide with the "lowest common denominator" remark...I guess I'm just not amusement park material. I realize I'm in the very small minority so obviously, I'm the one who's the odd man out.
286. CalGal - 2/20/2001 3:11:52 PM
Well, I do think the lcd comment was out of line (especially for someone who feels judged for watching Survivor. g). But in any event, I certainly realize there are people who don't like roller coasters.
But there are people who love roller coasters and other wild rides or have kids who love them and who think that it's impossible to have a good time at DW. That's pretty much the group I was addressing.
287. JudithAtHome - 2/20/2001 3:23:19 PM
Well, I do think the lcd comment was out of line
I apologize for the remark...but I'm happy to say I enjoy being "out of line" rather than IN one at those places.:-)
288. Shannon - 2/20/2001 3:26:44 PM
We went to Santa Fe for a couple of days on our honeymoon. It was beautiful. It rained the whole time we were there, which really bummed me out because we missed an eclipse.
289. arkymalarky - 2/20/2001 9:57:42 PM
I took 20 kids on a senior trip for a week in FL a few years ago, and when we went to Disney we went only to Epcot and had a great time. The lines weren't long at all--of course it's not like an amusement park, but it was also around mid-May, so maybe the crowds were not as big as usual. I wish Mose could have gone, but there was no way, and I never got to take her. I think she'd enjoy Epcot, Seaworld, etc, if we can make a trip within the next few years.
290. arkymalarky - 2/20/2001 10:00:23 PM
I'm not trying to plug my state, but AR is really a great place to vacation in spring or fall, the drives are nice, there are lots of great spots to hit driving through the west/northwest part of the state--Eureka Springs, Mountain View, and the AR/MO and AR/OK borders are very nice.
291. Shannon - 2/20/2001 11:52:03 PM
Arkansas is very pretty.
And hey, I even think it's nice in summer. It's better than here, at any rate. When I was a kid, my family went to Hot Springs in August and I thought the weather was wonderful.
292. JJBiener - 2/20/2001 11:56:30 PM
Last December I went to a business conference on the Disney grounds. It was held at the Boardwalk Hotel. There is a calculated sense of unreality about the whole place that absolutely drove me nuts. I will never stay on the Disney grounds again. I think for mental health reasons, I will always stay in Orlando or Kissimmee if I am going to be in the area again.
The two redeeming events of the trip were that I was able to spend Saturday with my father and Sunday with MsGreer. Aside from those two bright spots, it was indeed a dreary week.
293. JJBiener - 2/21/2001 12:06:29 AM
Judith - You are absolutely correct about "manufactured" fun and amusement parks. I hate them. If I didn't have a kid, I would never go to one. I didn't even like them when I was a kid.
There is one exception, Silver Dollar City in the Ozarks. They have real craftsmen plying their crafts and they will sit and talk to you about their work. The shows are better than the garden variety amusement park shows. And their food is reasonably priced and quite good. It is in sharp contrast with Branson which has become so commercialized in the last 20 years that it is pretty much intolerable.
In general, I prefer to visit a new city and explore the different neighborhoods. I am going down to New Orleans in a few weeks for another conference. I will be staying just outside the French Quarter. When I am not at the conference, I will hanging out at the clubs, browsing the stores and sampling the cuisine. I have been to NO a couple of times before and enjoyed it thoroughly. I plan on enjoying it again this time.
294. Shannon - 2/21/2001 12:27:54 AM
New Orleans is always fun. Pre-kids, we used to go down there every couple of months or so. And we're thinking of going down there for a few days with the kids soon. They love the aquarium, and I'd like to check out the children's museum there too.
I've heard good things about the new D-Day museum. I want to check that out soon.
295. CalGal - 2/21/2001 12:33:03 AM
I will never stay on the Disney grounds again. I think for mental health reasons, I will always stay in Orlando or Kissimmee if I am going to be in the area again.
I'm exactly the opposite. I'd never stay in Orlando or Kissimee. Yes, Disneyworld is unreal. That's the point of it all. I mean, hell, if you leave Disney you're in....Orlando. Next to Tampa.
Not places I'd visit voluntarily.
296. JJBiener - 2/21/2001 12:44:19 AM
CalGal - Artificial communities creep me out. I need the randomness that makes things real. Otherwise I start feeling like I am living with pod people.
SuzyQ and I went on a cruise a few years ago for our 10th anniversary. We hated it. It was the same problem. Everything on the ship was preplanned and prepackaged. The only part of the trip we liked was the day we spent in Nassau.
One of the stops we made was on a small island called Cococay. It is one of those islands that are owned by the cruise line. It felt more like Gilligan's Island than a real island. I told SuzyQ that that was what islands would look like if Walt Disney was God. I didn't realize how accurate that joke was until I spent a few days at Disney.
If I was to see nature, then I want to see nature. Not something manufactured to look like nature. If I want to see a city, then I want to see a real city. Not something built to resemble a city.
297. AytchMan - 2/21/2001 12:44:51 AM
One tip on DisneyWorld:
If you get in the gate right when they open, you can race to the back of the park and ride the rides for about an hour with no wait before the masses filter back there.
298. Autodaffy - 2/21/2001 12:50:22 AM
You could fly to Loreto and rent a car. From there you could see the godzillion whales in San Ignacio Lagoon, where they go after coming down the CA coast each spring. In San Ignacio, an oasis in a desert complete with date palms and volcanic flows sitting as if they settled there yesterday there is a seventeenth or eighteenth century church. In Santa Rosalia you could see the ruins of French copper mining and an Eiffel church. If you had the time you could mule pack into prehistoric indian cave paintings. If you dive off Loreto you can find mussels the size of a small loaf of bread. Further south on the Sea of Cortez you can sit in bars on the water at La Paz, which are like the same on the Riviera.
299. CalGal - 2/21/2001 12:51:57 AM
JJ,
There are plenty of things I enjoy in Disney without approaching anything phony. I avoid Epcot Center almost entirely, except the Sega Game center and Honey I Shrunk the Audience. I don't go to Wilderness Park. I go to the water parks, MGM/UA, and Magic Kingdom for kickass rides.
Aytch,
Yeah, the best time to do the big parks is early in the morning and the last three hours at night. You can get more rides done from 9-midnight than from 10-6 in the day. I usually go early in the morning for a couple hours, then do the waterparks all day, go back to the big parks at night.
However, the Fastpass innovation has really improved things during the day even at the big parks.
300. CalGal - 2/21/2001 12:53:11 AM
Auto,
Hey. That sounds fantastic. I'll start investigating.
301. thoughtful - 2/21/2001 12:40:44 PM
Hubby and I are going on a trip to Costa Rica...a few days to hike the rain forest and volcanoes. Then we hop on board a small ship (60 passengers max) to sail down the coast and through the Panama canal taking the little zodiac to various islands and such along the way. We are so looking forward to it.
302. Erin R. - 2/21/2001 1:10:55 PM
Well, I'm packing up for my overnight trip to Dallas.
Disneyworld: I went there in my teens with a bunch of kids from school. It was a blast. I imagine we'll be taking Boy-Boy there when he's older.
303. ScottLoar - 2/21/2001 1:17:27 PM
My family took vacation several years ago, contrary to the advice of a colleague who travels the region and declared Cost Rica forgettable.
Odd, two weeks there and some years later we can remember almost nothing about Costa Rica. Yes, one or two good meals, a trip to the volcano (shrouded in mist with visibility at the crater rim about 10 feet), a walk through the rainforest preserve (the Everglades are much, much more interesting), but the beaches, the food, and most of all else - save the exquisite coffee - simply unimpressive.
I have never before or since been to a place outside these United States which was so forgettable.
304. ScottLoar - 2/21/2001 1:20:21 PM
Oh, the woven silver bracelets we bought at the plaza in San Jose we thought most excellent value for give-aways to friends, and they were, but the low-grade silver wire came from Peru.
305. ScottLoar - 2/21/2001 1:22:57 PM
It seems most foreigners in Costa Rica are there either as semi-permanent residents trying to get out by selling off their land developments/condos/real estate, or fishermen and their boat crews who come down for terrific sailfish fishing about 150 miles off the western coast.
306. ScottLoar - 2/22/2001 5:12:40 PM
And, tarantulas, fried crisp, are served up on the streets of Phnom Penh so, Jenerator, your roommate was correct.
307. CalGal - 2/22/2001 7:53:40 PM
Autodaffy,
I wanted to tell you that based on your post, I started investigating Baja and am reasonably sure that's where I'm going to go. Thanks!
308. SnowOwl - 2/22/2001 10:13:59 PM
I've just arrived home from our far too brief trip to Sweden and Scotland.
Sweden was enchanting. I fully expected to see the Snow Queen appear at any time. We had a couple of days of sheer magic, when the air actually sparkled, as if Tinkerbell had just passed by.
It was also my great pleasure to meet Pelle, who turned out to be a very delightful Viking indeed, and far from the dour and humourless fellow he purports to be. My only disappointment was that he did not show up wielding his chainsaw.
309. CalGal - 2/22/2001 10:15:46 PM
Snow! I missed you! How did he look in a kilt?
310. SnowOwl - 2/22/2001 10:30:48 PM
Cal! Hi there. It's good to be back. He looked rather dashing although he did not do the true Scottish thing, but wore bike-shorts underneath (or so I am reliably informed - I certainly wasn't going to find out for myself).
Despite my misgivings about going I'm now really glad that I did. The wedding was delightful. Everything turned out perfectly, including the weather. It was one of those sparkling days with bright blue skies above and crunchy snow underneath. Hollywood could not have put on a better production.
311. CalGal - 2/22/2001 10:45:41 PM
It sounds lovely. Do you have pictures that can be scanned?
312. Autodaffy - 2/22/2001 10:52:46 PM
Calgal:
Great, and good luck! A few caveats: expect the unexpected down there. Not all things happen on time, but a lot that is unexpected can be pleasureable. Beware salads and fruits, if you are not immune to stomach bugs. Don't open your mouth in the shower. Beware drinking too many margaritas while in a warm pool. Don't drive after dark if you can help it and if you do, drive very slowly. There are no shoulders on the roads, so if you run off you turn over and get to wait ten hours, if you are lucky, until someone finds you. Plus the cows tend to come up on the pavement at night and one of them staring you in the face is exciting as you top a hill at 60. You see a lot of bloated dead cows beside the road down there. On the other hand, large holes in the roadway are usually well marked by a large boulder placed in the roadway just in front of them.
By the way, its only a day's drive from Loreto to Cabo San Lucas, if you want to see the tip. Its gotten really built up down there. There are diving operations in Loreto and Cabo San Lucas.
313. CalGal - 2/22/2001 11:02:01 PM
Plus the cows tend to come up on the pavement at night and one of them staring you in the face is exciting as you top a hill at 60.
Sixty? Not the way I drive, pal. Of course, the way I drive a pothole will get me before the cows will.
You are now the second person who told me to be wary of cows in Baja. That's just not one of the things I'd worry about without warning, so I appreciate it.
Do they have net access down there? And before people make jokes about me not surviving without email--accurate as such jokes would be--it matters because I quite often have billable hours when I'm on the road so I have a real reason, too.
314. SnowOwl - 2/22/2001 11:12:14 PM
Cal, I've got a few snaps but most have not yet been developed. I did take quite a number with a digital camera but something about the light resulted in them turning out to be very dark. As soon as I get all the photos sorted out and some decent ones scanned I'll post a couple.
The only disappointment with the entire trip was our short stay in Amsterdam. I have great memories of my last visit there (around 30 years ago), and as a result it's been one of my favourite cities in the world. This time it looked a bit grimy and down at heel, probably because the Dam Square was being dug up, obviously for major renovations. We were also fairly tired and scratchy by the time we got there so we spent the entire time arguing, which certainly didn't put me in a good frame of mind to enjoy the place.
315. Jenerator - 2/23/2001 12:06:50 PM
[ScottLoar, have you ever been to Pat Pong? Am I saying the right name? My friend tells me that it is unlike any other seedy city in the world and with one of the highest concentration of transexuals outside of Brazil.]
316. CalGal - 2/23/2001 12:07:43 PM
I was in Amsterdam once a long time ago--not quite 30 years, but in that time frame. I know what you mean about being "scratchy". Great word.
Too bad about your digital camera pics. Do you have software to process them? Usually there is an "auto fix" as well as a feature that lightens up dark pictures.
317. Autodaffy - 2/23/2001 12:36:39 PM
I don't know about net access in the Baja, but I would strongly doubt it. On the other hand, I haven't been there in over ten years.
One of the images I will never forget was of a cow wandering beside the road south of La Paz with its face just covered with those thorn balls from the jumping choyas (sp) cactus. It was pitiful. If you stop to use any of the millions of public toilets along the roadside, don't back into one of those pleasant plants.
318. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 12:58:50 PM
Yes,I've been to Phat Pong, but in it's heyday, which has long passed. I can't speak to the concentration of transexuals but Honolulu and Singapore have a fair number, some able to "pass through the eye of the needle" without a hitch if you know what I mean. However, my after-business pastimes do not include searching out transexuals.
Thailand has enough about it to occupy the thoughts and busy hands of just about all kinds of mammals.
319. Frankster - 2/23/2001 1:26:54 PM
Cal,
A Little advice on traveling in Baja:
Take water, as much as you can. I was an unexpected "hit" with some cute girls once at my hotel room in Cabo because I had the foresight to bring along a whole case of Evian water.
Picturing you on the floor in a fetal position screaming in pain is not very becoming. One young woman's vacation became a nightmare after she ignored our warnings about drinking the water and ice down there. Those little microbes can wreak havoc on you inners. Maybe they've improved things since I was last there, but if they haven't ..?
Let someone else do the driving. The roads down there in places are extremely narrow with a high crown, and I came back with a greater appreciation for concrete dividers after some near headons with oncoming traffic. If you must drive, drive under the posted speed limits, and be cognizant of the stop signs that aren't there. ;-)
I didn't see many dead cows or burros on the side of the roads near Cabo, but I did see plenty on the way down to Matzatlan one year. Kind of eery to look at, ya know.
If your layover is in San Diego or Tijuana, just say the word if need any help getting around. I'm there.
Que te vaya bien, and I think you'll love some of the scenery. :-)
320. thoughtful - 2/23/2001 3:57:40 PM
Thanks, ScottLoar, for setting my expectations of Costa Rica so low. I'm sure whatever we face, it will surpass "most forgettable" by some margin.
321. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 4:22:50 PM
I surely did not intend you to take my comments to heart. Perhaps Costa Rica will be as a veritable Eden, an oasis of earthly nirvanah, on your road through life.
322. SnowOwl - 2/23/2001 4:32:30 PM
Has anyone any dire warnings about Taiwan? My youngest daughter is going there for a year, to teach English.
323. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 4:38:25 PM
Dire warnings about Taiwan? I lived there for years, and travel there at least twice yearly, but dire warnings?
It's hot in the summer, sticky hot, and the traffic is crowded, slow and somewhat reckless, but dire? No, there's nothing dire about Taiwan. "Dire" is not an adjective anyone can use in describing Taiwan save it be for some official's political future.
324. PelleNilsson - 2/23/2001 4:40:58 PM
Snowowl
It was certainly a very pleasant chat we had in Stockholm.
325. SnowOwl - 2/23/2001 4:49:08 PM
I'm sure that my daughter won't be too concerned about any official's political future, ScottLoar.
She's already been warned to expect very high temperatures in the summer. I'll let her know about the traffic. If that's the worst she can expect it appears that she has nothing at all to worry about other than the possibility of getting heatstroke in the summer.
She's fortunate enough to be travelling with a friend who is Taiwanese, although she has been living in NZ for the past 10 years. The friend's father still lives in Taiwan and is providing the girls with an apartment, rent-free, which I imagine will be an enormous boon to them.
One of the things I found interesting in the requirements for the job was that the applicants are required to be able to teach English with an "American accent". Why this should be so I have no idea, nor do I really know what particular "American accent" the employers mean, unless it is some catch-all drawl.
326. SnowOwl - 2/23/2001 4:52:46 PM
Pelle
Indeed it was. In fact I got into great trouble with my son because I turned up very late to meet him, since I found it so difficult to tear myself away from your pleasant company. As it happens, I almost wish I hadn't met him at all. I was introduced to punch (punsch??) later that evening.
Surely that must be one of the most vile drinks ever invented.
327. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 5:22:32 PM
SnowOwl, the American accent, as you doubtlessly have heard if you've been in a movie theatre for foreign English-speaking films or television shows since WWII, is not "some catch-all drawl". The American accent is considered standard in Taiwan as most speakers of English in Taiwan find the English, Australian and New Zealand accents distorted and hard to follow. This being the case, you can understand why the American accent is preferred for instructing students in English at least so the students will be somewhat understood when completing the conversation course.
I am an American from the Midwest. English is my mother tongue. I have taught English in Taiwan. I do not speak with a catch-all drawl. I am perfectly understood by Brits, Australians, New Zealanders and Taiwanese who speak English if they can follow my vocabulary.
328. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 5:24:37 PM
My wife was born in Taiwan. She is relatively competent in English. When we visited New Zealand and Australia she found the local accent difficult to understand, as if "distorted". Do-you-understand?
329. SnowOwl - 2/23/2001 5:50:49 PM
You have completely failed to grasp my point, ScottLoar. I have spoken with Americans from various states, most of whom have different accents, at least to my ear. The requirement that one is able to speak with an "American" accent thus seems as ridiculous to me as a requirement that one is able to speak with an "English" accent, given the diversity of accents to be found in England.
330. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 8:12:47 PM
I completely fail to grasp how your laboured point pertains to my explanation. Comparing the English as spoken by American and British media announcers should make clear my point. Your subtle distinctions in accent are lost to persons struggling to understand the standard American accent as compared to Australian, New Zealand or English accent.
331. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 8:14:36 PM
Or, do you have difficulty discerning an American speaker from an English speaker or New Zealand speaker or Australian speaker of English? To deny the existence of an American accent is ridiculous.
332. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 8:26:38 PM
Also, to deny an American accent by claiming there's just too many variations is equally ridiculous.
333. thoughtful - 2/23/2001 8:35:38 PM
Hah! Yes. I was going to a co. meeting in Atlanta once and we were all on the bus to a hotel including a couple of Germans. I found myself in the position of needing to "translate" the driver's southern drawl into "american" english for the Germans.
334. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 8:40:27 PM
That's understandable. But to discount the desire for an instructor with an American accent - Chicago, or San Francisco, or even the place from which Thoughtful hails - as distinct, say, from a language instructor from Auckland or Cairns or Kent, is not understandable.
335. arkymalarky - 2/23/2001 10:06:10 PM
I have a Swiss friend whose original language is German, and who came to live in AR when she was 16, not knowing a word of English. As a 30 year old married adult she went up North--I think to Illinois--and was in a store when the lady behind the counter asked where she was from. She replied Arkansas, and the lady said, "I knew you sounded like you had an accent."
336. DanDillon - 2/23/2001 10:59:34 PM
People are bloody ignorant apes.
337. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 11:04:58 PM
And I'd thought people had a greater range of vocalization than apes.
338. DanDillon - 2/23/2001 11:07:37 PM
Perhaps.
Barely.
339. ScottLoar - 2/23/2001 11:08:30 PM
Ugh.
340. DanDillon - 2/23/2001 11:08:51 PM
You said it!
341. SnowOwl - 2/24/2001 12:49:29 AM
I shall just let my daughter know that all she needs to do to make herself completely understood whilst in Taiwan is to cultivate a suitable air of pomposity. That seems to be the key to ScottLoar's self-proclaimed ability to be able to be understood perfectly wherever he travels.
342. ScottLoar - 2/24/2001 9:47:54 AM
SnowOwl, I'm truly sorry you choose to drag your daughter into this when my initial post to you was prompted by what I supposed was an earnest request for some help for her.
I've got no problem being understood in Taiwan. I speak Mandarin, and having studied so and having taught English as a second language in Taiwan does afford me some knowledge and authority even if you choose to ridicule it.
343. PelleNilsson - 2/26/2001 5:35:54 AM
Snowowl Message # 326
So you didn't like punsch? Here is a bit of punsch history written in funny English.
It says there that imbibing punsch was not a class thing. That is true now but not when the drink was introduced at the end of the 19th century. Then it was very much a haute bourgeoise fad involving fat men with fat cigars.
344. CalGal - 2/27/2001 12:47:40 PM
Auto,
I am not sure if I'm going to book through my condo timeshare or not, but I have an option for a place by South Rosarita Beach (just south of Tijuana). Not sure if this link will work--it may be members only.
The other Baja spots in my resort exchange are all in Cabo. I'm thinking of just renting on the outside--someone just found an online condo rental in Loreto, for example. But I'm wondering if you or Frank know anything about the northern area.
345. JudithAtHome - 2/27/2001 1:11:32 PM
I love the name of the Loreto place...Sukasa.
Mi casa, su casa...nice play on words.
346. Frankster - 2/27/2001 2:31:49 PM
Judith,
Are you sure that isn't the name of the current Indonesian president ? ;-)
Cal,
Rosarito beach is just a hop skip and a jump away from San Diego, and it is generally inundated with American tourists from the Los Angeles and San Diego area down for a lobster meal, or just wanting to experience a neighboring country without the hectic pace that a tourist trap such as Tijuana offers. It's become a big Spring Break destination, so watch what dates you book in case you decide on this place...I don't think barfing American 18 year olds is the image you want to leave Mexico with. It caters to the tourist, as one would suspect from a place so close to the American border, and you won't have any trouble communicating with English being so prevalent. I haven't covered all its area, but I personally don't see what the big deal is about it. I'll e-mail you my phone number should you decide to make this your destination and want or need any assistance while you're in the Southern California area.
I've never been to Loreto, but going on my little experience on Baja Sur, my guess is that the scenery is much more desirable than one would find in Rosarita Beach. Sorry I can't help you there.
On a personal note, my mail hasn't been delivered in close to a week, so I don't know if my tickets to Paris are among my growing stash. It seems my lovely neighbor's dog has shued all the postmen away and they have refused to deliver anything to anyone living in the entire complex.
347. ScottLoar - 2/27/2001 3:14:36 PM
Frankster, a man's gotta' do what a man's gotta' do. Take care of business. Are we clear? Solve this problem. Be firm.
348. ScottLoar - 2/27/2001 3:15:55 PM
N.B. It is well-known among certain of this group that I do not favour dogs, especially those whose owners indulge them to terrorize.
349. Frankster - 2/27/2001 3:22:48 PM
Scott,
This dog is a female terrier of some type and is harmless, but the fact that her owner doesn't watch her around the time our postmen does his rounds ( between four and five in the evening ) leaves them guessing whether they'll be on her plate that evening.
... I also don't care for what she's done to my beautiful lawn.
350. ScottLoar - 2/27/2001 3:33:46 PM
Just a few well-aimed strokes of the baton...
351. ScottLoar - 2/27/2001 3:35:17 PM
Or,if you prefer, a few curt blows from a swagger stick.
352. CalGal - 2/27/2001 3:40:25 PM
Frank,
Exactly the information I needed. Thanks!
353. JJBiener - 2/27/2001 11:38:23 PM
Fraaaank - This dog is a female terrier of some type
Anyone who owns a terrier is a terrierist.
354. Autodaffy - 2/27/2001 11:54:42 PM
Rosarito Beach is no place to experience the Baja. Don't go there. The Rosarito Beach Hotel is ok for a weekend night away, but not for a vacation. If you just want to get your feet wet, book into the El Presidente at San Quintin, about a four hour drive south of San Diego. It has a nice isolated hotel on a wide beach with next to no humans to be seen, except the Ceilito Lindo trailer park next door has a restaurant that serves the best seafood, particulary the crab, you have probably ever eaten. San Quintin was the site of a
19th century English farming community that was thrown out by the Mexicans for trying to get the US to annex it. In the departure process, a train engine was dropped into the bay.
355. Erin R. - 2/28/2001 10:29:34 AM
I'm off to Houston next week. The week after that, Cleveland. And at the end of the month, Stamford, CT.
Whoopee.
356. Autodaffy - 2/28/2001 3:10:14 PM
That may be a La Pinta hotel south of San Quintin.
357. CalGal - 2/28/2001 3:42:17 PM
Auto,
You, too, confirm my worst fears. I'm looking for places now.
358. thoughtful - 2/28/2001 3:49:28 PM
Most beautiful place on earth I've ever been: Bryce Canyon. Second most beautiful, Moraine Lake. Of course, I'm not very well traveled and that's just one person's opinion.
359. thoughtful - 2/28/2001 3:53:19 PM
See Moraine Lake here.
Here's just a piece of Bryce: 
and more can be found here.
360. Shannon - 3/1/2001 12:06:35 AM
Moraine Lake is incredible. I loved the Canadian Rockies.
361. seadate - 3/3/2001 9:50:21 AM
Any suggestions for entertaiment, restaurants, bars off the beaten path in NYC (staying in Manhattan)?
362. JudithAtHome - 3/3/2001 9:53:30 AM
Wow...you'd better start now if you want to make Southlake by 1:30pm today, seadate!
363. seadate - 3/6/2001 3:54:58 PM
AwA,
Keoni, Judith's sweetie is from the Big Island. He lurks, so he'll be excited that the topic came up, and I'm sure they will be more than willing to offer a few tips.
Judith's not feeling well today, so I don't know if she'll be checking in.
364. altitude /w attitude - 3/6/2001 10:41:36 PM
Enjoyed the Bryce tour. Utah is beautiful. I love Lake Powell. Moab, Canyonlands, Dead Horse Point, all some of the most incredibly beautiful parts of the country. Pictures do none of them justice.
The teenager and I are going on the pauper's trip to Hawai'i. The Big Island. We are very excited. I can't wait for the warm weather and the ocean. Any suggestions for what to take? What not to take? For souvenirs I usually limit myself to a lot of photos.
365. Autodaffy - 3/7/2001 12:49:21 AM
I wish to amend my earlier comments regarding spending a vacation at Rosarito Beach.
CalGal, this will be the perfect place for a long vacation. By all means follow the advice of whoever wants to book you there.
366. CaroBeth - 3/7/2001 2:54:22 AM
Cal, sounds like you've already decided on your vacation spot, but from way back, I can recommend Taos/Santa Fe wholeheartedly. I went in February about 7 years ago. Great skiing and the Taos Inn was a great place to stay. I would go back in a second. It should definately be on your list of future places to go.
Sedate, in NYC I lived downtown, so that is where most of the places I know are. In Greenwich Village Tio Pepe is a great place for Spanish food. We always had the paella (sp?) and they had wonderful sangria. On West 4th St. I believe. Provence is good for French food and lovely atmosphere. The Black Sheep Cafe (or Inn - I can't remember) is also good. I'm really missing all these places, typing this! If you like jazz, Sweet Basil is a good place to go. All of the places I mentioned are in the Greenwich Village area. Have a great time!
367. PelleNilsson - 3/7/2001 4:59:54 AM
This coming Easter we will go on a cruise, although properly speaking it is not a cruise. Land communications in Norway are poor because of the mountaineous terrain. The ships of the Hurtigrutt (fast route) leave Bergen every day for the six-day trip to Kirkenes on the border with Russia, landing at 37 places along the coast. 
If things work out Uzmakk's book will go with us.
368. RustlerPike - 3/7/2001 5:48:08 AM
Pelle:
Your country looks like a flaccid cock.
Mine is erect (but the Pals have taken a big bite out of it).
Please check out the Flash links I posted in War and tell me if they work for you.
369. RustlerPike - 3/7/2001 5:50:16 AM
Also, Scandinavia dresses to the left.
370. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:14:55 AM
Thanks Caro :)
371. marjoribanks - 3/7/2001 10:19:22 AM
Seadate,
What are you interested indoing off the beaten track? And what kind of food do you want to experiment with or splurge on?
Obviously, NYC has a wealth of everything.
372. Jenerator - 3/7/2001 10:25:29 AM
Marjori,
Have you already posted about your recent venture into India? (I'm glad to hear that you and your family are okay and that the earthquake was nowhere nearby!)
373. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:25:40 AM
Marjorib,
Actually I'm inquiring on behalf of some close friends who are going for the first time. They won't want sushi. Other than that, I think they are receptive to just about anything. I felt kind of silly making such a general inquiry about NYC, but these guys travel well and don't mind experimenting.
An extra tidbit ... this is the same couple that I took along to meet Judithathome and hubby last Saturday for the Uzmakk book hand-off.
374. JudithAtHome - 3/7/2001 10:31:03 AM
And they are great! I'm sure they will appreciate any info and they'll be willing to try anything involving good food....terrific people to dine with and of course, I'm including Seadate in that description.
No sushi? Well, NYC is full of places which cook food...
375. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:33:57 AM
Judith,
For some unsophisticated reason they overcook good beef as well.
376. Jenerator - 3/7/2001 10:34:14 AM
Since I haven't gotten any e-mail from my beloved Uzmakk, I've been trying to figure out from bits and pieces this whole book-handoff thing. If we're trying to circulate his book across the globe, I could take it with me to Miami or Puerta Plata this weekend. I know of several Moties in Miami. Any of you planning on going to the Dominican Republic next week?
377. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:37:10 AM
They couldn't stop talking about what wonderful company you and hubby were. I already had an idea of what great company you'd be, but they were very suspicious.
378. JudithAtHome - 3/7/2001 10:39:03 AM
Alt /w Att:
The Big Island is a great place to experience Hawaii...here's a good site with all the islands listed; just click on Big Island for exclusive to that area.
Hawaiian Island Info
379. Fielding - 3/7/2001 10:40:08 AM
seadate:
I don't know what passes for off the beaten path these days. . .
There is a bar in the West Village called Chumley's, which is difficult to find, as it is a former speakeasy and doesn't have a sign or even an obvious doorway. It is at 86 Bedford Street (at Barrow).
Pao is a Portuguese restaurant not too far from there. It is "off the beaten path" and pretty good. Pao is at Spring and Greenwich Streets.
I'll try to think of a few more.
380. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:40:20 AM
Jen,
I'm not sure of all the plans other than where I'm to send it, but I think Uz has a pretty tight timeline to get it on a flight to Europe.
When do you leave for DR?
#377 was speaking to Judith, btw.
381. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:42:03 AM
Thanks, Fielding. Please do post any additional thoughts.
382. marjoribanks - 3/7/2001 10:42:18 AM
Well, I recommend Il Cortile in Little Italy for a great Italian dining experience for newcomers to NY. Also HSF for tourist-friendly dim sum on the Bowery. Then, there is Nirvana for a spectacular setting high above Central Park and a fine (if pricey) Indian meal. There are two iconic delis worth visiting -Katz's on Houston and the famed Second Avenue Deli. The first deli is popular with tourists because When Harry Met Sally has a famous scene set in it. The second has the best pastrami on the planet. Both have the kind of entertaining staff you'd expect at NYC landmark delis.
Otherwise, Smalls is a great and conveniently located late night-type Jazz club, and everyone should visit the Natural History Museum along with the usual trips to the Met, Moma and Guggenheim.
Basically, unless you have a good idea of specifically what kind of thing you want to do in the first place, NYC offers you so much that the best plan may be to make few plans and coast along according to whim.
383. Fielding - 3/7/2001 10:42:41 AM
seadate:
If they have been overcooking your beef, you have been going to the wrong places.
384. JudithAtHome - 3/7/2001 10:45:05 AM
seadate:
Were they really? I guess that's a common enough reaction...everytime I tell our friends we're meeting up with a Motie, they look at me as though I'm insane. I guess people hear about the loonies out there luring adolescent girls to Las Vegas to enslave them or worse and think all "internet" friends are the same. To me, it's no different than going to a party where there are people you've never met.
Only better because you DO have a shared communication to rely on...the people who are willing to meet you usually aren't hiding behind any assumed personality.
385. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:46:12 AM
Fielding:
I was referring to my friends. I have to make an effort to overlook that fault.
386. Jenerator - 3/7/2001 10:46:49 AM
Seadate,
We're going to a bed and breakfeast this weekend, then we're off to Miami and the DR on Monday morning -- 6am.
Did you get my e-mail?
387. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:48:05 AM
Thanks again, Marjori. This couple coasts quite well.
388. seadate - 3/7/2001 10:53:19 AM
Jen,
Got it. How was the wedding? (I know, wrong thread)
389. Jenerator - 3/7/2001 10:59:08 AM
It was awesome. The weather had turned pretty miserable last week and we worried that it would put a damper on the evening's festivities, but it didn't at all. (The church was packed to capacity!) As the groom and I were headed for the limo to go to the reception, there was the most incredible purple, pink, and orange sunset I can remember.
God blessed us with a wonderful evening and an even better first day of marriage complete with total sunshine, family and friends.
Maybe I'll post a blackmail picture of the city's elite in headdress doing the Y.M.C.A.;-)
390. JudithAtHome - 3/7/2001 11:00:45 AM
Jen:
I'm asking you for a full report over in the Cafe...
391. iiibbb - 3/7/2001 11:13:42 AM
top of head (places I've actually been):
Current Favorite Resturant:
The Riverside Cafe, Charleston, SC
Most over-rated resturant
Hymmens, Charleston, SC
Best Historical Museum:
The Air Force Museum, Dayton, Ohio
Best Art Museum (admitedly small pool):
Smithsonian, Washington DC
Best National Park
Glacier NP, Montana
Best Beaches
Outer Banks, NC
Best place to ski
Wolf Creek, CO
Best cave
Banes Spring, VA or Warm River, VA
Coolest City
New Orleans
Worst City
St Louis
Place I'd most like to move to
Ashville, NC
Worst Place I've lived more than 2 months.
Jesup, GA
392. JJBiener - 3/7/2001 11:31:47 AM
iiibbb - WORST CITY?!?!?! How dare you?!?!? That's it! I am starting a petition to have you banned permanently. I never liked you anyway.
393. Fielding - 3/7/2001 11:34:24 AM
Its not really a city, anyway. :)
394. Fielding - 3/7/2001 11:37:28 AM
I thought the food at Hyman's was pretty good. For Charleston, anyway.
395. JJBiener - 3/7/2001 11:46:59 AM
Maybe it is just me, but when I think of eat at Hymmens, I am not thinking of food.
396. seadate - 3/7/2001 11:52:28 AM
but when I think of eat at Hymmens, I am not thinking of food.
You must be getting old, pal (g).
397. ScottLoar - 3/7/2001 12:09:14 PM
I've never been to the Smithsonian, but my understanding is the Smithsonian's art collection extends through a number of affiliated institutions, those I've visited on-line are The Freer Gallery and the National Museum of the American Indian.
398. iiibbb - 3/7/2001 12:13:39 PM
Sorry Biener... nothing personal...
I liked the Arch
399. iiibbb - 3/7/2001 12:16:51 PM
Perhaps I should have been clearer "worst _personal_ experience in a city"
400. JJBiener - 3/7/2001 12:20:08 PM
iiibbb - Did you eat at any of the Italian places on the Hill? Did you check out the Delmar Loop? Did you go to the clubs in Laclede's Landing or Soulard? Did you check out any of the Blues and Jazz bands playing around town? Did you check out the world-class symphony? Did you go to any of the Asian restaurants on Grand or in U City? Did you check out Forest Park?
401. seadate - 3/7/2001 12:25:35 PM
Thanks for the enlightenment, JJ. I thought St. Louis existed to delay Soutwest Airlines flights.
402. seadate - 3/7/2001 12:32:59 PM
(joke) --- sort of.
403. JJBiener - 3/7/2001 12:35:54 PM
Seadate - For years people thought it was just a place for TWA to shit on.
Actually, St. Louis is a good place to live and visit. If you are visiting, you have to do a little research and find the best places to go. They aren't located in obvious spots like in New Orleans.
Also, St. Louis has this kick ass band called Just Water that's been playing out around town. They are not to be missed. (G)
404. iiibbb - 3/7/2001 12:39:26 PM
Best views:
Great Sand Dunes National Monument, CO
Whitesides Mountain, NC
Linville Gorge, NC
Grandfather Mountain, NC
Whitetop Mountain, VA
New River Gorge Bridge, WV (from the catwalk)
Joyce Kilmer National Monument, NC
You name it, Glacier, NP
Funniest Town name
Lizard Lick, NC
Coolest Day Hike
Devil's Marbleyard, VA
Fun location game
http://www.geocaching.com
Northernmost point
Glacier, NP
Southernmost point
St. Petersburg, FL
Eastermost Point
New York, NY
Westernmost Point
Kalispel, MO
Total # of States
30
Total # of Countries
2 (not including embassies)
Lowest Elevation
-70 ft below sea level
Highest Elevation
27,000 ft (approximate)
405. thoughtful - 3/7/2001 12:41:22 PM
Hmmm. Hadn't ever thought about ranking the places I've been or seen, but here goes:
Favorite national park: Bryce Canyon
Favorite hotel location: Princeville, Kauai
Favorite hotel: Caneel Bay, St. John
Favorite city to live in: Boston
Favorite city to visit: San Francisco
Most romantic city: Venice
Favorite art museum: Isabella Stewart Gardner, Boston
Most kitsch hotel: Madonna Inn, San Luis Obispo
US Historic Location: Gettysburg
US Mansion: Biltmore
US Gardens: Longwood Gardens, PA
Best Zoo: Bronx Zoo
Best beach: Anguilla with it's sugar-like sand
Least favorite state: FL
Least favorite airport: St. Louis
Least favorite city: Los Angeles
All the best meals I've had have been at restaurants that have since closed so no point in mentioning any.
406. iiibbb - 3/7/2001 12:43:27 PM
Biener... perhaps my experience is tainted by the fact I was there for a conference, and didn't have a car...
407. seadate - 3/7/2001 12:43:40 PM
JJ, my home town is sorely lacking in the music department (other than the Symphony and Stevie Ray style blues).
A very close friend of mine plays guitar professionally and occasionally sits in with a band renamed from "The Johnsons" to "The Rather Large Johnsons".
408. thoughtful - 3/7/2001 12:50:36 PM
National park with the widest variation in environments: Acadia
Bluest blue I've ever seen: Crater Lake
Most stars/best sunrise ever seen: Atop Haleakala
Most beautiful lake: Moraine Lake, BC
409. JJBiener - 3/7/2001 1:14:37 PM
Thoughtful - I agree that St Louis Airport sucks. However, it doesn't suck as bad as Atlanta or National in DC.
410. JJBiener - 3/7/2001 1:16:47 PM
iiibbb - You were in St. Louis without a car? You poor shlub. No wonder you had a lousy time. You obviously missed the best parts of the city. Where did you stay?
411. thoughtful - 3/7/2001 1:56:03 PM
No way, jj....I've been in and out of Atlanta and Nat'l many times with success. St. Louis shuts all but one runway if there's a threat of a cloud --not to mention you are stuck with TWA. No thanks!
412. ScottLoar - 3/7/2001 1:58:51 PM
Toad Suck, AR. A small town on the Mississippi where barges would tie up to wait for some reason or other and the captains would drink beer until they'd "suck up bigger than toads".
413. altitude /w attitude - 3/7/2001 8:26:06 PM
JAH
Thanks for the site. A quick peek looks awesome. Think I might need to spend a whole lot more time looking around. Someone, somewhere, suggested looking for a "benefit luau" as it would be potentially less expensive. Any thoughts? Teenager expressed a desire to "do a luau." Mother not inclined to spend 65$ each for the experience.
414. janjon - 3/8/2001 12:33:43 PM
Just back from an interesting trip. Venice (pleasure - and, as always, pleasure it was. Winter is the only time to go.), Punta del Este in Uruguay (pleasure, in terms of visiting some really close friends at their house/mansion there in high season, which is really high season for the absurdly wealthy Argentinians and other South Americans who congregate there in February and March), but business in that a number of people with whom I at least used to do business with were there and I had to be friendly with a number whom I really don't like), and Palo Alto (business so to speak - what a boring place.)
415. Indiana Jones - 3/8/2001 12:36:57 PM
I'm so ready for a trip, preferably Europe (France, Spain) or South America.
416. janjon - 3/8/2001 12:39:07 PM
Jones. If you can get away, go to either Venice right now - just eerily beautiful and quiet - or if that is too cold and clammy feeling, zip off to Portugal. Wonderful place. Terrific bargain. Warm enough at this time of the year and in the next month of so it will be glorious.
417. Fielding - 3/8/2001 12:39:15 PM
I recommend Paris. You've got to love that weak franc.
418. janjon - 3/8/2001 12:41:36 PM
The weak franc ain't quite as weak as it was some months ago, but it certainly is a lot better than, say, two years ago.
France has always been a bargain as compared to, say, England, Germany, Switzerland and even Italy.
Not compared to Portugal or Greece, though. Or, Turkey.
419. Jenerator - 3/8/2001 12:43:53 PM
Go to S. Africa if you want beauty and a great exchange rate. The dollar is equal to 7.9 rand and everything is half the price (or more) than in US prices.
Superb bottle of wine, lunch, and a spectacular view in Stellenbosch will cost you about 5 dollars.
420. Indiana Jones - 3/8/2001 12:56:40 PM
I try to get overseas for an extended trip (three or more weeks, preferably) at least once very two years. But buying a house just makes it impossible this year, I think, which will break my streak.
Paris is very nice. And Portugal is a bargain (the one place I remember wine being cheaper than water). I've never been to South America, though, so even with the higher cost of an airfare, it's tempting.
421. janjon - 3/8/2001 1:15:54 PM
The parts of South America that most people would want to see, at least first time around, unfortunately are now extremely expensive. Buenos Aires, for instance. Extraordinary city. Highly cosmopolitan. Looks very European (combination of Italy mostly and Paris a bit - not surprising considering the very large number of Italian immigrants who went there instead of the U.S. back at the turn of the century), and on the surface it seems thriving. Those big beautiful avenues are bustling and all those terrific looking restaurants are jammed. But, inflation has reared its ugly head again and things are beginning to fall apart. Not as bad as 15 years ago but signs are ominous. At least then, things were absurdly cheap. Not now. I have no idea how a middle class Argentinian hacks it these days.
422. Indiana Jones - 3/8/2001 1:18:50 PM
janjon: Have you ever done any eco-touring in South or Central America?
423. janjon - 3/8/2001 1:32:50 PM
Jones. Unfortunately, no. Almost all of my travel there has been "business" oriented (although at least now it is more going to visit people whom I got to know through business).
You obviously can put together a wonderful array of eco-oriented trips. I envy you even the planning.
424. JudithAtHome - 3/8/2001 1:43:48 PM
A/wA:
Someone, somewhere, suggested looking for a "benefit luau" as it would be potentially less expensive. Any thoughts?
I'm not sure what a "benefit" luau is but surely you can find one cheaper than $65 per! Where will you be staying? There may be a tour which goes to different points of interest with a laua at the end...if you are staying on the Big Island, I can ask my sister-in-law if there are any in the Hilo area that are inexpensive.
When are you going, anyhow?
425. seadate - 3/8/2001 9:05:29 PM
Anyone care to offer advice about hotels and restaurants near Haarlem, Netherlands?
426. altitude /w attitude - 3/8/2001 10:39:09 PM
JAH
That would be great if it is not too much trouble. I'd sure appreciate it as would The Teenager. We are flying into Hilo, and staying in Pahoa. My friend is talking about a trip to the Kona side or coast on Friday and Saturday. My limited understanding of "benefit luau" is that it would cost less and support some local charity rather than some business coffers.
We are flying out of Denver the 21st and returning the 27th.
427. seadate - 3/8/2001 10:43:17 PM
Tude:
I'm Greeeeeen.
428. altitude /w attitude - 3/8/2001 10:49:54 PM
That's algae from living on the water! I'm white from lack of warm weather and sun exposure. The other beach goers will need sunglasses to protect their eyes from the glare of the white skin!
429. Shannon - 3/9/2001 9:18:26 AM
I think we're going to keep our family vacation relatively low-key (and low-cost) this year and go to the beach. Somewhere close enough to drive. I'm thinking Florida panhandle, Destin maybe. Gulf Shores is a possibility too. Oddly (considering how close it is), I don't know too much about the area. Anyone have any recommendations? I have 2 small kids (3 and 5). I haven't decided whether to go with a hotel or condo setup. Condo would have more space, but if we find a hotel with good stuff to keep the kids busy, I'd consider that too.
430. seadate - 3/9/2001 1:15:31 PM
Although the beaches of Gulf Shores are beutiful, they are infested with cheesy high rise Condos, which ruin it for me.
431. JudithAtHome - 3/9/2001 1:23:05 PM
A/wA:
I've made a note to myself to call her this weekend. You asked earlier about what to pack...pack very little. For 7 days, you should be able to make do with a carry-on bag...it will be what the Hawaiians consider "cold"...in the mid to high 70s.
Take as little as possible and if you need something more, there is a Ross clothing store in Hilo where you can buy stuff super cheap. May be one in Kona, too...seriously, travel light.
432. seadate - 3/9/2001 1:25:28 PM
AwA,
If you like fresh fruit you are in for a wonderful treat.
433. Frankster - 3/9/2001 1:52:48 PM
I was watching the Travel Network one night a couple of weeks back when they had a show on the top 10 places to see while in Paris, and now that I have FINALLY received my tickets to Paris for the end of this month, I have been wondering about one of their choices -- Le Cimetiere du Pere Lachaise ( Why can't I get accents to work here ?).
Are the ornate and ostentatious tombs and mausoleums worth the time, and does this place require at least a full day to grasp its beauty and history. I only have 11 days, so I really have to start planning and developing some sort of timetable as to where to go and what to see. Time will be tight, as I also plan to hook up with family while I'm out there, and who knows what they have in store with me and how much this will put a damper on my own time.
...Maybe it's also the necrophiliac in me that is drawing me to this place. After all, I grew up next to a beautiful parklike cemetary and spent many a dusk running around in it until complete darkness scared our little 10 year old asses home ... I can still remember that sinking feeling I would encounter walking or running over a grave. E-e-e-eck!
434. Frankster - 3/9/2001 1:54:56 PM
And, no, Jim Morrison's grave will not be a priority should I decide to visit this place. ;-)
435. CalGal - 3/9/2001 1:56:42 PM
Shannon,
I almost always prefer condo, although something like Embassy Suites gives you the best of both worlds. The downside of condos is that they don't always have all the cool infrastructure--concierge, four or five onsite restaurants, babysitting services and so on.
But condos have a kitchen, more than one room, more than one TV, the kids can wake up and go to another room to make cereal while you sleep in, and so on.
Also, it's more possible to find condo properties that also have the great infrastructure.
Have you checked the online sites?
436. CalGal - 3/9/2001 1:57:18 PM
Frank,
Pere La Chaise is fantastic. I always go there when I'm in Paris.
437. JudithAtHome - 3/9/2001 2:00:14 PM
Are the ornate and ostentatious tombs and mausoleums worth the time, and does this place require at least a full day to grasp its beauty and history.
This is a big fat OUI! I loved this place and here's a hint: put black and white film in your camera before going there; the pictures you will get are stupendous in B/W film. Be sure to get a little map of the "must see" graves...Oscar Wilde, René Lalique, Marcel Proust...Jim Morrison if he hasn't already been kicked out.
I don't know if it will take an entire day but at least the better part of one should be set aside for it. And after, go have a beer at the bar across the street from the front entrance. It's owned by a former boxer and he has pictures all over the walls of his previous glory days.
438. Frankster - 3/9/2001 2:08:55 PM
Judith, Cal:
Thanks. If you two say it's worth it, then it will be on the itinerary.
Judith -- Bar ? You expect me to drink while I'm out there ?
... Um, do Coronas and Bud Lights make it that far ? ;-)
Excellent tip regarding the black and white film, by the way. I would have never thought of that.
439. JudithAtHome - 3/9/2001 2:15:29 PM
What ever you do, do the B/W film...and be SURE to see Wildes grave. If you don't get chills and tears, then I don't know you...
440. Frankster - 3/9/2001 2:19:31 PM
Judith,
Not that I will touch it, but isn't there some bronze casting there, that a woman touches to supposedly become fertile ?
Yes, I'll look for Wilde's tomb, as well as the others you mentioned. Is it that big ? One-million graves ?
441. JudithAtHome - 3/9/2001 2:21:03 PM
It's enormous....
I don't know about the bronze fertility thing but the poem on Wildes grave is fantastic.
442. ScottLoar - 3/9/2001 2:31:05 PM
Any public statue with a bump in the trousers and open to public hands is invariably worn shiny.
443. Frankster - 3/9/2001 2:47:34 PM
Any public statue with a bump in the trousers and open to public hands is invariably worn shiny.
Scott -- This bronze statue is lying on its back, if I'm not mistaken ( how apropos ), and is that what Judith was referring to when she said, It's enormous?
444. JudithAtHome - 3/9/2001 2:49:42 PM
No..I meant the cemetary. ha!
445. Frankster - 3/9/2001 2:52:24 PM
Judith,
I know. I know. I was just funnin' witcha. :-)
446. Shannon - 3/9/2001 3:03:49 PM
the kids can wake up and go to another room to make cereal while you sleep in, and so on.
Well, since my kids can do this at home and don't, it's doubtful they'd do it in a beach condo.
I've been doing some net research. If we do go with a hotel, it would be a place with kitchenettes or at the very least a fridge and microwave. Given my weird eating habits, eating out at every meal can be tedious. If it's just hubby and me, we get by. But factor kids into the equation, and it gets a lot harder.
447. CalGal - 3/9/2001 3:08:10 PM
Embassy Suites, Crown Suites--there's a bunch of good ones like that.
Another thing to do--go to the sites of all the major hotels (Marriot, Hilton, Hyatt, etc) and see what they have in the area. The websites will often show you what accomodations they have, what sorts of rooms, and so on.
448. Shannon - 3/9/2001 3:12:02 PM
I love Embassy Suites. We stayed in one in DC 2 years ago and it was great. In fact I was thinking I should check their website.
449. arkymalarky - 3/9/2001 8:26:47 PM
Gulf Shores used to be Bob's favorite place until what Seadate refers to happened. He doesn't even want to go back and see it now.
Destin was great. We stayed at the Hilton and loved it, but that was ten years or more ago (myself, a couple of work pals, and 20 seniors). We had a blast.
450. CalGal - 3/9/2001 8:29:12 PM
I thought two nuns were outraged at the phallic symbol and castrated it.
451. ScottLoar - 3/9/2001 10:10:38 PM
Frank, yes, I heard that one. Somehow we're supposed to believe girls one after another will mouth a public statue to ensure pregnancy or true love. Of course they're European, which makes it all the more believable. Say, perhaps French?
452. Autodaffy - 3/9/2001 10:10:40 PM
Frankster,
Pere Lachaise is superb. There used to be a plaque on a wall there dedicated to the last of the Paris Communards (after the Franco-Prussian war of 1871 Paris pretty much broke with the gov. of the country and set up shop on its own) who were lined up and shot there.
A few hours would be enough. A day, too much.
This would be a must see on any visit I made to the city. Perhaps others could tell you if the watershow still errupts at the Trocadero at sunset. I haven't been there in thirty years.
453. Autodaffy - 3/9/2001 10:13:40 PM
Regarding shiny statues (the one in Pere Lachaise IS known for its powers), is there still a bust of a woman in one of the U. of ILL. buildings that has shiny breasts from handling? It used to be on the right facing away from the student center.
454. ScottLoar - 3/9/2001 10:20:17 PM
Hell. College students would dork a Brancusi sculpture.
455. Autodaffy - 3/9/2001 10:43:33 PM
Yes, the medical profession has a long history of treatments for bent dork syndrome.
456. Autodaffy - 3/9/2001 10:53:41 PM
Scott,
I have in my files a twenty-year old Journal of the American Medical Association article on penile injuries caused by the insertion of the penis into vacuum cleaners. Evidently, some people do not realize that the hose is an important part of the vacuum and have, as a result, encountered the fan blade in the cpu. The article had some very interesting photos, no before, all after.
457. JadeGold1 - 3/9/2001 10:55:46 PM
U. of IL?
Is there such a thing? Is it preparatory for real colleges like the Ivy League or Federal Military Academies?
458. altitude /w attitude - 3/9/2001 10:57:42 PM
seadate
I love fresh fruit. Needless to say it is difficult and expensive to find at this time of year here in the 'high country.' I am really getting excited about going. As always torn between seeing what there is to see and sitting around on a beach with a book or walking the beach for the sheer pleasure of it.
JAH
Saw a dinner cruise on the site you posted. Any suggestions? Seemed like a good idea. Cruise on the water... great idea. Maybe see whales.....cool. A sunset on the water....excellent. The number one reason for me would be the photo opportunity of the perspective of the island from the water. Dinner? well I wouldn't expect too much there. It just seems like a chance for a multiple of experiences. Any suggestions for a beach with shells?
459. Autodaffy - 3/9/2001 11:03:54 PM
Jade,
Yes, it's in Chabana, IL. An Ivy League graduate would know that. "Federal Military Academies": I know that you love centralized government in every respect, but none of the military academies have "Federal" in their names.
460. JadeGold1 - 3/9/2001 11:12:55 PM
Chabana, IL?
Sounds like the sticks. Oh well, they probably have very good vocational training in animal husbandry and fast food management.
461. Autodaffy - 3/9/2001 11:19:00 PM
Jade,
I really don't know about the subjects that interest you as offered in Champaign-Urbana, but you clearly could use some geography at whatever college you decide to attend.
462. JadeGold1 - 3/9/2001 11:27:00 PM
No, AD. You are profoundly confused.
I wasn't even aware of a U. of IL. Who would be, save for some hick with a prurient desire for statuary?
463. Autodaffy - 3/10/2001 1:01:06 AM
HaHaHa! Let's not lose our cool, Jade. It might imply you aren't scoring points.
I'll bet a lot of people, including your buddies in Washington, could tell you where the U. of IL is. Why don't you ask them, rather than make a public issue of your ignorance.
By the way, lately you seem to be less in control of your composure than in the past. Is something worrying you, Jade? Is Bush going to pull your snout out of the public trough?
464. JudithAtHome - 3/10/2001 9:44:54 AM
A/wA:
I encountered the Big Island after I quit going to beaches so I don't know about the best beach for shells but I can tell you of a lovely beach for picnics on the Kona side...it's called Samuel Spencer Park and is on the same road as the airport, leaving Kona and driving toward the airport...it's a little way up the coast but not too far. We have a fondness for it because it is named for my husbands grandfather. I'll ask my SIL for advice on a good shell beach but you know how locals are...take all that beauty for granted most of the time!
My sister used to book dinner cruises and fishing tours for a company in Maui and she said the dinner cruises are really nice. They are probably the same on every island...
It is very hard to get oriented while there...directions are given by "mountain side" and "coastal side", the words for which my memory fails right now...I know mountain is mauka but coastal will have to wait til I've had my coffee.
465. altitude /w attitude - 3/10/2001 10:30:18 AM
JAH
A whole park named for someone in your family. Wow! All I have is a puny lake out of thousands in northern Minnesota named for my grandfather's family. (and the original homestead is now part of the boundary water system).
If directions are mountain side and coastal side, it doesn't make sense to me as the mountains are in the middle? Isn't the island surrounded by coast? So how do you know which coast? Am I missing something really simple here? Thanks, you have been really helpful. Guess I get to bring back Kona coffee for the coffee drinkers here. What do I bring to the Island from the mainland for someone?
Are terms like mountain and coastal an integral part of the language? Should I be learning these terms? Are there others? I don't mind being a tourist for the locals amusement, I just hate being an ignorant tourist. "Better to keep mouth closed and be thought a fool; then to open mouth and remove all doubt." (Confucious maybe?)
466. JudithAtHome - 3/10/2001 10:51:12 AM
A/wA:
Tourists are Hawaiis lifeline so you will be treated well whether you know the language or not...
"Am I missing something really simple here?"
No, nothing is simple in Hawaiian language. I don't know how they do it but they can give directions with no east, west, north, or south in them and they all seem to know what they are talking about.
Saying "thank you" is usually appreciated...it is Mahalo. (mah-HAH-low)
What do I bring to the Island from the mainland for someone?
I don't think there is much they can't get there...they have Sears, Neimans, Home Depot just like here...even CostCo. In fact, if you plan to take back souvenirs for anyone, I'd suggest going to a supermarket for Kona Coffee, exotic jelly, chocolate covered macadamia nuts...they will be much cheaper than from tourist shops. And if you plan to buy Hawaiian shirts, they have wonderful ones at Ross, the kind with wooden buttons and subdued print. My husband buys Hawaiian shirts from Ross when he's there and he wears them IN Hawaii so I know they are good. Also great T-shirts from Hawaii there, too.
467. JudithAtHome - 3/10/2001 11:37:02 AM
A/wA:
Just got the word for ocean side: makai (mah-kEYE, as in eyelash). Hubby called...he was very proud that I had remembered mauka!
468. altitude /w attitude - 3/10/2001 1:28:25 PM
JAH
mauka - ma-u-ka?
mucho mahalo/gracias
469. JudithAtHome - 3/10/2001 1:36:19 PM
mauka...MOW(as in wow!) ka
470. Frankster - 3/10/2001 3:04:41 PM
Autodaffy,
Thanks for the word on Pere Lachaise ( post 452 ). The interest in here displayed by several of you has piqued my interest in going, and so it shall make the itinerary.
... I'll certainly be on the lookout or any well polished statues with desperate looking females about it. ;-)
471. PelleNilsson - 3/10/2001 4:16:57 PM
You young people don't know how to use the the resources of the net. There are several more sites.
472. Uzmakk - 3/10/2001 7:34:56 PM
I am quite sure you are right, Mr. Pelle Nilsson.
473. anomieme - 3/10/2001 8:01:26 PM
One of the things that makes the cemetery so picturesque is that it is built on ground that is slightly hilly. It looked like a village of undersized houses. I would mot have been surprised to see vampires roaming the place.
474. Longshanks - 3/12/2001 12:14:15 PM
Hi, I'm planning a trip later this week to drive from San Francisco up to Portland, stopping in Ashland on the way. Was wondering if anyone has done a similar trip and had any tips on places to stop, routes to take, avoid, etc.
We're definitely planning to stop in Bodega Bay, which is only a hour or so from S.F. Let's just say it's a pilgrimmage for a Hitchcock freak!
I've heard that Crater Lake is not to be missed, but it might be under 50 feet of snow?!
475. JudithAtHome - 3/12/2001 12:16:28 PM
Let's just say it's a pilgrimmage for a Hitchcock freak
Get out quick if you see birds amassing!
476. Longshanks - 3/12/2001 12:55:45 PM
On the contrary, I want to be attacked in a phone booth like Tippi Hendren!
477. CalGal - 3/12/2001 1:15:09 PM
Bodega Bay is lovely. I'd also stop by Stinson Beach for some antique shopping, and the cafe there is superb. If you're planning on spending the night or stopping for dinner, the inn has a wonderful restaurant--a bit more expensive.
My familiarity with the area pretty much ends after Muir.
478. Frankster - 3/12/2001 3:58:46 PM
Longshanks,
The new Fugitive TV series just did a two parter recently supposedly filmed at Bodega Bay, and let me tell you, the backdrop for some scenes were spectacular. The coastline, replete with beautiful cliffs and crashing waves and swells were to die for if you're a camera buff.
What beautiful country!
479. janjon - 3/12/2001 4:02:37 PM
The Birds was on TV today (I caught part of it while exercising.) The scene where Tippi sits outside the school smoking and the crows gather behind her remains cool. Very cool. I also like that shot from above showing the path of the burning gasoline. Much of the rest of the movie looks hackneyed these days.
480. thoughtful - 3/13/2001 3:37:16 PM
It's just that Tippi is so humourless.
481. janjon - 3/13/2001 3:39:05 PM
Tippi is both humorless and wooden. De nada, when compared to her blond (well, the bottle worked for both of them) Hitchcockian predecessor, Grace Kelly.
482. thoughtful - 3/13/2001 3:45:14 PM
Grace Kelly was exquisite...no other hitchcock blond could touch her. Kim Novak could've been attractive, but when I last saw Vertigo, I just couldn't deal with those enormous eyebrows.
483. thoughtful - 3/13/2001 3:47:00 PM
speaking of on location films, a few months back I saw Niagara with Marilyn Monroe...not a bad flick. I visited Niagara twice -- once as a small child with vague memories of it and later as an adult. The falls at night with the lights on them...definitely a romantic scene.
484. janjon - 3/13/2001 3:47:23 PM
Well, I just couldn't really deal with Vertigo. It left me in a funny state of dizzy.
485. Dusty - 3/13/2001 4:01:54 PM
thoughtful
I drove back from Chicago to CT a few years ago; we passed Niagra about midnight, so saw it with the lights. I had seen it years before in the day, but it was different at night.
486. Dusty - 3/13/2001 4:10:27 PM
Which reminds me, the trip itself is an interesting anecdote (at least to me).
We had a meeting in Chicago, and required a dozen or so computers for a demo. One of the people in our office didn't like flying, so he volunteered to rent the truck, and drive the computer equipment out to Chicago and back. Unfortunately, his wife had a medical emergency, and he had to fly back, leaving the truck and the equipment behind. I talked to another guy, and we decided to drive it back ourselves, figuring we could switch off and drive through the night.
We intended to drive through OH and PA. However, when he was driving, he missed a turn, and we were on our way to Detroit. I woke up and realized it, but told him I had been that way before. It meant driving through Canada, but the distance wasn't much different, so I said push on.
Three hours later, we were nearly the Canadian border when it hit me. We were about to cross into a foreign country, driving a truck which wasn't registered in our name, carrying thousands of dollars of computer equipment for which we had no record of ownership. It occurred to me that we might not have satisfactory answers to questions that might be asked. We approached the border in trepidation, but the result was anti-climatic. They didn't even ask us a question. We must have looked honest.
We then drove on, stopped at Niagara around midnight, then pushed on home.
487. thoughtful - 3/13/2001 4:32:06 PM
Hah. Anyone visiting Niagara has had to deal with that very tight as a trap Canadian immigration. We danced across the border on a daily basis without problem....were pissed though when they wouldn't give us a discount on the meal we had in Canada as we only had us currency so we left no tip. Let them take it in the exchange rate.
Another cool thing was to look across the field and see a ship go by -- the canal runs through the ag area there which you can't see from a distance, but you can see the ships "sail" through the fields. Very bizarre.
We also stopped to see the original erie canal and were shocked at how miniscule it was -- yet it played such a crucial role in the econ development of NY and the entire region...quite something.
488. thoughtful - 3/13/2001 4:35:48 PM
See some shots here.
489. altitude /w attitude - 3/13/2001 5:24:16 PM
Frequently passed thru Canadian customs from the small town I grew up in in Maine without a problem. However, my younger brother had to leave his marijuana at customs when he passed through. No fine, no jail, just give up the dope. I always wondered if someone didn't keep it for themselves.
490. JudithAtHome - 3/13/2001 6:29:52 PM
A/wA:
Talked to my BIL this weekend and he said go to Kona Pier for info on dinner cruises and for info on Luaus in the area...he said they are not very familiar with a lot of Kona stuff because they have so much to do on "Hilo side" w/their kiddos and both he and my SIL are on sports teams. She canoes, also.
Guess that is a sport....yeah, it looks like one and she is definitely in "sportive" shape!
491. anomieme - 3/13/2001 10:14:58 PM
I'd rather go to Hawaii....
But I have to go to London. My online booking experience....
I'd been tracking fares on Expedia at about $650 and there were plenty of flights at that price. The night I decided to book there was only one bargain left and it had jumped to $680. I took it and felt happy I'd got the last bargain. Next morning I checked Expedia again just for kicks and there were 4 or five more offers for 630. In fact the same BA flight I'm on was 50 dollars less. It appeared that Virgin had come in with a low price and BA met it. My luck I picked the exact few hours that BA was making a little money.
How odd to feel like I got a bargain and to feel cheated out of 50 bucks at the same time.
Fairly painless booking procedure overall.
492. altitude /w attitude - 3/13/2001 10:55:27 PM
JAH
Thanks again for your help. I will be on the Hilo side for a couple of days. I understand that is where the teenage daughter is supposed to check out the "hotties." She is afraid the Island will be full of "old people."
anomieme
I booked my flight on line also. I wanted a ticket for around 500$. I kept finding flights for 6-700$. A friend told me they knew someone that had tickets for @ 550$. So I renewed my efforts and found one. Right after I rec'd notice of an exceptional value of 1,395$ for one person, I checked TravelServices@cs.travelocity.com
It was tedious at times. Don't know how it would have gone with a travel agent.
493. JudithAtHome - 3/14/2001 9:07:08 AM
Next morning I checked Expedia again
A huge mistake....I won't like myself check rates after I decide to buy; if they come in lower, I'd rather not know.
494. Shannon - 3/14/2001 9:12:06 AM
I don't look once I buy either. Same with PC's. If I get a new one, I refuse to look at any ads for at least 6 months.
We've decided to go condo for our vacation. Even if the kids will wake us up at the crack of dawn.
495. JudithAtHome - 3/14/2001 9:14:32 AM
Look on it as them wanting to share the beautiful sunrises with you...
496. Shannon - 3/14/2001 9:17:15 AM
Yeah, I guess. My son just wants to share EVERYTHING with someone. He's not what you'd call a solitary type. I said something to him the other day about how I had gone out to be by myself for a while. Foolishly, I said "Don't you ever want to be by yourself?" He looked at me with a puzzled look and said no.
It's sweet, really. Just exhausting at times. That's kids for you.
497. anomieme - 3/14/2001 10:11:26 AM
AWA,
Talk about tedious. I tried to use the BA phone system from the office. It's a non-human keypad entry system and it kept telling no flights were available, even the one I later booked online. Glad you found a good deal.
I usually use the agent at work but they are between contracts now, which is why this was my first online booking experience. Now I wonder if I was always getting the best deals. But I do know the prices are subject to fluctuation.
Have fun on your trip.
498. anomieme - 3/14/2001 10:16:43 AM
Judith, Shanon,
Ha! How right. I shouldn't have checked. I was browsing hotels and the thought just came to me. It was a good learning experience though. I was almost smug that I'd got in on a cheap ticket just in time.
I've had the same experience buying computers.
499. bubbaette - 3/14/2001 10:19:15 AM
Just booked our trip to Minneapolis/St Paul to see Ms. Vole o' de Tundra graduate college in May. My boss asked me if I got a good rate, but is there anything good about paying to visit Minnesota?
500. Longshanks - 3/14/2001 3:39:46 PM
some more Birds anecdotes... the scene where the car explodes at the gas station, if you watch there are three separate shots of Tippi's face, taken in sequence it looks like she's turning her head. was considered impressionistic at the time.
also, apparently she suffered a nervous breakdown after filming the scene toward the end in the attic. makes for a nice story anyway.
Anyway, I'll report back on Bodega Bay... let you know if I see any crows.
501. Autodaffy - 3/15/2001 9:45:50 PM
The disease has spread. This just in from contacts in Japan:
Japan has today banned all animal movements
after discovering nibbled beds in Tokyo.
The government thinks it could be an outbreak
of deadly Futon Mouse disease.
502. PelleNilsson - 3/17/2001 2:41:11 PM
The Chicken in Pristina
These events took place during our 1988 journey from Amman to Stockholm.
We had spent the night in Kavala, a Greek city with some kind of heroic history (Alexander?) which I have now forgotten. By mid-morning we found ourselves in the traffic jam known as Thessaloniki. That's where I first heard the funny noise from the engine. Eventually we extricated ourselves, turned right and headed for Macedonia. The landscape was barren, stony, with a few patches of grass chewed by the odd goat. We had planned to stop over in the capital, Skopje, but when we arrived there we changed our minds. It looked awful. Flattened by an earthquake in the 1960s, it had been rebuilt as a showcase for Communist architecture. Need I say more? The land was a bit more populated by now so we told ourselves that there is bound to be an inn or motel somewhere. No such luck. We drove on and on and finally we found ourselves at the check-in counter of the Grand Hotel Pristina in Albania, a Very Communist Establishment. The lobby was vast, yet claustrophobic, all marble and brass. Less money had been spent on the rooms. The electrical installations looked positively dangerous, the cupboard had been propped up by a pile of bricks, the toilet had just been put in there without any securing bolts so to use it was an advanced balancing act.
503. PelleNilsson - 3/17/2001 2:41:48 PM
Anyhow, we dumped our things and went out to find something to eat. An outdoor place in the main square looked promising. Pristina is not exactly a touristy place so we attracted some considerable curiosity from the other guests. A waiter came up. I stuck two fingers in the air and said 'Pivo' which is the universal Slavic word for beer. I also made the sign for 'large ones'. The other guests exchanged appreciative nods and glances: I had managed fine. I then made the sign for 'let us look at the menu'. The mood changed. A hush fell. The waiter who had been all smiles looked worried and withdrew without a word.
Time passed. Eventually, a young waiter approached, hesitantly, a paper in hand. He put it down on the table. It was blank. He took out a pencil and skilfully sketched a chicken. We understood. I made a chopping motion with my hand indicating that we wanted half a one each. He drew a french fried. We nodded enthusiastically. The tension released. A difficult situation had been successfully and ingeniously resolved.
Next morning, after an abysmal breakfast, we headed towards the Mediterranean by way of Montenegro. It was one of the most beautiful legs of the entire journey. Wild, craggy mountains, grassy sloping meadows dotted with cows and cherry trees in full bloom. We ended up in Budva, a pleasant little Croatian town with many memories from the Venetian era.
504. grannypatsy - 3/18/2001 7:10:47 PM
"around the world in a plane, castles in Spain" and all that jazz but I have never been to Chicago. Any advice ?; I know I want to take the architectual boat trip up the river and spend time in the art museum' What else?
505. Autodaffy - 3/18/2001 9:25:59 PM
Museum of Natural History. Frontera Grill for food. It's an architecturally rich city, of course, with several of the tallest buildings in the world, including the Sears tower. Riesi's Bierstube(sp)if it is still there and you like trying obscure beers. Don't fail to walk along the lakefront on the other side of Lakeshore Drive. Blues clubs used to rock along Lincoln. I don't know if Frank Lloyd Wright's house still stands, but he lived and worked in the city. It has been twenty-three years since I lived there and probably ten since I last visited. I'm sure it has changed. There are substantial Greek and Eastern European communities, so if these cuisines interest you, look into them. The Greek restaurant row was close to downtown.
506. altitude /w attitude - 3/18/2001 9:46:54 PM
Cool spot with a sculpture in recognition of Mrs. O'Leary's cow and the great Chicago fire. When are you going?
507. JJBiener - 3/18/2001 10:04:06 PM
Patsy - If you like museums, the Museum of Science and Industry is good. The Shedd Aquarium is decent for a couple hours entertainment. You should try Ed Debevic's. The food is good and the staff does a wicked dance routine. Pizza at Giordano's. Hot Dogs at Portillo's. Greektown is a must see. If you are into Asian Markets, there is a Japanese shopping mall in Arlington Heights. It was one of my favorite spots when I was up there on a contract. You also have to cruise Michigan Ave, great shopping.
508. grannypatsy - 3/18/2001 11:08:44 PM
Daffy, Altitude and J.J.
Thanks for the clues, it all sounds worth doing. I plan to go whenever in the Spring the river toour begins. Or fall, wwhatever.
509. janjon - 3/19/2001 11:43:29 AM
Michigan Avenue has all the same stores as Fifth Avenue, and more or less has the same feel. Since you can also find most of those same stores at up-up scale malls, why waste your time.
The Art Institute is first class. Make that world class.
I also would either invest in one of the good architectural guides to Chicago (which will also include the many Frank Lloyd Wrights which are found in places like Oak Park, an nearby older suburb) and then spend a lot of time walking around. Or if that isn't in the cards, there are a number of good architectural tours. Ask your concierge or if you are staying in a hotel that doesn't have one, march into one that does (like the Four Seasons) and with a little smile or two you ought to be able to get the info. you need.
The Navy Pier is rather a cliche, except for the marvelous new Shakespeare Theater. By all means go if there is ANYTHING up while you are there.
510. seadate - 3/19/2001 8:14:11 PM
The Art Institute is first class. Make that world class.
Yes!
511. anomieme - 3/19/2001 10:23:49 PM
Chicago. Patsy, a Cubs game at Wrigley Field can't be beat for a real Chicago experience if it suits you and your party. A day game, of course
I've been wanting to walk some old neighborhoods of my youth. It's been over ten years for me too, Autodaffy. I'll probably go later in the summer.
512. grannypatsy - 3/19/2001 11:50:03 PM
Yes! Cubs game sounds great but how hard is it to get a ticket? No party with me; I am an intrepid solo traveler but my daughter might join me.
513. anomieme - 3/20/2001 12:09:01 AM
Patsy,
A regular season game shouldn't be hard. Weekends might be harder. The Cubs can fill a ball park even when they're losing. But I doubt they'd fill it during the regular season.
Maybe you can get tickets on the web, or at least get an address or phone number. The box office was always open right up to game time and after, but it's been years since I was there.
From downtown, take the L to Waveland Ave, or the Clark Street bus to Irving Park. (But my memory fades so please double check these directions.
BTW, I think all bleacher seats are still sold same-day. But it can get hot and there's no shelter the bleachers. You would have the distinction of being a bleacher bum, however.
Play ball!
514. anomieme - 3/20/2001 12:10:36 AM
And since they never make the playoffs, it's always regular season in Chicago.
515. JudithAtHome - 3/20/2001 12:31:14 AM
Last time I was in Chicago, Kennedy had just been shot in Dallas and we went to Mr. Kellys for steaks and a Jackie Vernon show there.
That was a lifetime ago...
516. JJBiener - 3/20/2001 1:26:41 AM
Judith - That was almost my entire lifetime ago. I was only 2 when Kennedy was shot.
517. JJBiener - 3/20/2001 1:29:44 AM
Anom - What do you (choke) mean (choke) the Cubs never (choke) make the (choke) playoffs?
(choke)
(choke)
518. JudithAtHome - 3/20/2001 1:40:16 AM
JJ:
That was almost my entire lifetime ago. I was only 2 when Kennedy was shot.
My son was 3....time flies.
So, remember I'm old enough to be your mom, young man!
519. anomieme - 3/20/2001 9:29:23 AM
JJ,
Funny! But this is a new millenium. Just what the Cubs needed, I think.
Thank goodness for "Da Bulls".
520. Laura C - 3/20/2001 9:44:38 AM
Orchestra Hall is across the street from the Art Institute.
Several blocks west, The Berghoff for German food, plus their own beer and whiskey. They got liquor license #1 when Prohibition ended.
521. ScottLoar - 3/20/2001 9:54:25 AM
The Berghoff is probably the best place in that immediate neighborhood, but for real, square American food go to Water Tower Place, mezzanine level, for the Mighty Nice Grill, a Lettuce Entertain You restaurant that never fails to please.
A first-time visitor to Chicago should attend the architectural boat tour and visit the Art Institute. Not only the architecture but the wealth of bridges spanning the Chicago river is most impressive.
522. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 2:02:52 PM
Sorry, who's coming to Chicago?
Second the Mighty Nice Grill. But be prepared for a wait.
523. ScottLoar - 3/20/2001 3:26:50 PM
Depends on what time you go, and what day. I'm still surprised many people don't even know about it.
I myself prefer Reza's, the original on Clark Street. Also, Phoenix in Chinatown (Archer Ave.) is about the best and least expensive dim sum in town.
524. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 3:29:56 PM
Reza's is good. I like that dim sum place in Chinatown, don't remember the name, but you have to walk up a long flight of stairs to get to it and it's a few doors down from the Jade Palace. There are also a few good Viet Namese restaurants in Chinatown.
525. ScottLoar - 3/20/2001 3:38:10 PM
I suspect you're talkin' The Phoenix. But, good Vietnamese restaurants are on Argyle, off Broadway.
526. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 3:44:03 PM
And also a couple in Chinatown!
Good Indian restaurants are on Devon. And there are great Middle Eastern restaurants in my 'hood, Hyde Park.
527. janjon - 3/20/2001 3:46:03 PM
Is the Berghoff the one that is only about two blocks from the Art Institute? If so, glad to hear that that atmosphere is real and not just late '90s contrived. The first liquor license after prohibition ended, eh. Was it a speakeasy during?
528. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 3:51:58 PM
The Berghoff is on the other side of the el tracks, headed west from the AI.
529. Laura C - 3/20/2001 3:54:33 PM
Maybe 4-5 blocks, due west as Erin says. And I think the odds of its previous existence as a speakeasy are excellent.
530. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 3:58:11 PM
With so many Chicagoans here, we ought to organize a F2F.
The restaurant that may remind you of the Berghoff and that is also across the street from the AI is Russian Tea Time.
531. grannypatsy - 3/20/2001 4:15:50 PM
Geez' no one has posted a Chicago adventure that doesn/t sound great.I had thought maybe a week but I now think a minimum of two weeks will be required. Tje web tells me architecture boat trip will resume in April. Any comments on weather; April or May? Uouse guys aane swell . Many thanks
532. janjon - 3/20/2001 4:17:07 PM
No, it was Berghoffs.
533. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 4:17:32 PM
The weather in April or May has a good chance of being tricky. Wait until late June, at least.
534. janjon - 3/20/2001 4:19:16 PM
Patsy - you'll find enough to do in Chicago to last two weeks. It really is a terrific place. And, this is a New Yorker talking!
535. Fielding - 3/20/2001 4:22:49 PM
A friend will be travelling with kids to San Francisco in July and wants suggestions as to what to do. I came up with
Yosemite
Alcatraz
Napa and/or Sonoma
Redwood country
Chinatown
Fisherman's Wharf (kind of touristy)
The new ballpark
I haven't been there in a few years, and I know I'm leaving stuff out. Any other suggestions?
536. ScottLoar - 3/20/2001 4:25:53 PM
Good Indian restaurants on Devon, yes! and the best place to get saffron from the Middle East. Have you seen the Indian jewelry shops? My fantasies rise as I see that filigreed gold on dark skin, heaving with each breath....
Berghoff (I'm routing by memory) is about a block down from the Palmer House going west. Russia Tea Time (I like the crowd) is east of the El.
GrannyPatsy, the weather in April or May will be as beautiful as you could imagine turning ugly as distemper the next hour.
537. ScottLoar - 3/20/2001 4:26:49 PM
GrannyPatsy, have afternoon tea at the Four Seasons. Yes, I kid you not!
538. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 4:29:52 PM
The Four Seasons is great, and not as expensive as one would think.
My husband bought me a beautiful Pakistani outfit on Devon. Let's see if I can post it...
539. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 4:38:35 PM
540. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 4:39:01 PM
Hm...I made it a little too small...
541. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 4:39:27 PM
542. CalGal - 3/20/2001 5:43:33 PM
Nice pic! Great outfit.
Fielding,
Skip Fisherman's Wharf, but don't forget the sea lions on Pier 39. Far more fun and very much a head trip. Only in California could seals take over a pier and the city decide to move the owners out.
Yosemite is way too far away. Four hour drive, easy. Sonoma and Napa in July will be very, very hot so warn them. I suggest dropping both of those and doing a trip to Monterey instead. Far more beautiful, not any farther than wine country, and beautifully temperate at that time of year. They could also check out Big Sur if so inclined.
On the way to redwood country, don't forget Stinson Beach for antique shopping. Tiburon is a lovely way to spend an afternoon--and Guaymas a great place to lunch while there.
I don't find much of interest in Chinatown, unless they have a shopping list already--then by all means go. It's a great place for the knowledgeable, but I don't recommend it as a tourist attraction.
Other, more quirky, possibilities:
543. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 5:46:03 PM
I found Chinatown to be horribly overcrowded.
544. CalGal - 3/20/2001 5:49:18 PM
Yep. There's some great restaurants in there, too, and I certainly recommend eating there. But it's not a stop for a tourist. Go there to eat or to shop, not to wander around and gawk. Nothing to see, really.
545. CalGal - 3/20/2001 5:50:00 PM
I shouldn't be too hard on Alcatraz. It's a lovely view, and the tour of the prison is quite interesting. But it's a long half day for relatively little payback.
546. Fielding - 3/20/2001 5:50:39 PM
Thank you for the great info, CalGal.
My friend said something about Carmel. Is that near Monterey?
Also, what is there to do in Sasalito? I thought that Sausalito was SF's version of Scarsdale or La Jolla.
547. CalGal - 3/20/2001 5:55:10 PM
Yes, Carmel is near Monterey--as is Pacific Grove. All worth visiting. In order, I recommend Pacific Grove for the beach views, Monterey for the bay, the museum, and the ambiance, and Carmel for the one long road of shops and the cute little beach at the end. Wonderful restaurants are everywhere.
You can do two days in Monterey easy, and there are plenty of places to stay, depending on the budget.
Sausalito is more of a trip than a destination. It's a nice way to take a ferry boat and get pictures of all the fun sites from the Bay. But if you're making a list, Tiberon should go well before Sausalito.
A wonderful daytrip: Go north on 101 to Hwy 1, stop at Stinson Beach for lunch (there is a delightful open air cafe there), finish the trip to Muir Woods, do the Redwoods, and come back through Tiberon to watch the sunset and Guaymas for dinner.
548. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 5:56:55 PM
I once flew to N. California via Phoenix. The plane went all the way up the coast from LA. The view of the sun over the water was breathtaking--I wish I could always fly up that way.
549. Laura C - 3/20/2001 5:58:11 PM
Tiburon is a lovely way to spend an afternoon--and Guaymas a great place to lunch while there.
That's really funny - Guaymas was the location of the bad restaurant behavior I was just posting about in Home & Garden, where the friend's new beau snapped at a waiter for merely bringing the requested water, rather than acknowledging the request sufficiently first.
550. CalGal - 3/20/2001 5:58:22 PM
Oh, isn't that glorious? I had the same experience once flying north from SF to Seattle. Took a rare turn, right at the Golden Gate bridge, and I was on the side of the plane that tilted.
551. janjon - 3/20/2001 5:59:09 PM
I've done much of what CalGal covers in 547 and can heartily recommend that drive up 101 and 1 and both Stinson Beach and Muir Woods. Haven't really spent any time in Tiberon.
How old are these kids?
Alcatraz would be a real hoot for my 10 year old.
552. CalGal - 3/20/2001 6:00:03 PM
Laura,
You're local? Did I miss that? (along with your job description, no doubt).
How do you acknowledge a request for water?
553. Laura C - 3/20/2001 6:01:57 PM
Nope, I'm East Coast. I was working a trade show and visiting said friend.
He asked for water, the waiter started off to get it, and he snapped "Did you hear me? Look me in the eye and acknowledge me when I'm talking to you." A real charmer.
554. CalGal - 3/20/2001 6:02:02 PM
Yes, I realize I don't want to sell Alcatraz short. But there's a hell of a lot to do in the area, and I wouldn't prioritize a trip to the island unless there's a lot of interest. It is time-consuming and not a lot of flexibility.
If there is a lot of interest, then by all means. It's certainly not a bad tour, and there is lots of history.
555. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 6:07:42 PM
I'm flying out to Stamford, Laura. I wish I had more time there, otherwise I'd ask for a leisure tie recommendation.
556. Laura C - 3/20/2001 6:09:41 PM
Yeah, I saw you mention that. I'm actually flying out of LaGuardia tomorrow myself (another trade show) and will keep my eyes peeled for highpowered types with beautifully shaped heads.
557. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 6:11:31 PM
Where are you headed?
Also, I hate LaGuardia. Just thought I would mention that again.
558. Laura C - 3/20/2001 6:21:00 PM
St. Louis. Not that it matters, since I will only see the hotel and convention center.
I actually don't mind LaGuardia, although there's never any place to get food.
559. Erin R. - 3/20/2001 6:22:45 PM
Yeah, I never get to see the cities I visit, except from the hotel room window. LaGuardia is just plain dirty looking, and I think lack of concessions, or at least decent ones, is a problem everywhere.
Anyway, I'm taking off. Toodles!
560. JJBiener - 3/20/2001 10:15:36 PM
Judith - So, remember I'm old enough to be your mom, young man!
Does this mean I can call you "Mom"?
561. JJBiener - 3/20/2001 10:26:17 PM
Laura - So you are coming to our fair city. You will be right downtown in easy walking distance of several great restaurants. If you would like some suggestions, I would be happy to oblige. How long are you going to be in town? Which trade show are you going to be here for?
562. anomieme - 3/20/2001 10:41:14 PM
I wouldn't advise skipping Fisherman's Wharf if you haven't been there before. It is the quintessential San Francisco experience and the ferries are there. And what in the world would you tell your friends?
I'd recommend at least taking the short 90-minute Bay cruise under the GGB and around Alcatraz. Or walk to Fort Mason and get a view of both Bridges. Take your camera.
Angel Island is great way to see the views and get some exercise - so I've heard. I believe they have bike rentals as well. I haven't been there yet but it's on my list for this Spring.
Alcatraz was interesting for about 20 minutes unless you're really into prison history. These days I think you can leave the island at your leisure instead of having to wait for the 2-hour tour as I did years ago.
563. JJBiener - 3/20/2001 10:48:43 PM
Anom - I see two distinct parts to Fisherman's Wharf. There is that trendy mall area that looks like every mall in every city in the country, then there is everything else. I would skip the mall and see everything else. There are some very good seafood restaurants on one of the piers. The fishing boats pull right up to the back of the restaurant to unload. You can't get much fresher than that.
564. anomieme - 3/20/2001 11:07:13 PM
JJ,
Pier 39 is the touristy shopping place. Cutesy might describe it.
The Wharf, as I see it, is as you describe, identified by the fishing boats - colorful and real working boats, the wharf itself and the restaurants and street venders. Big crab pots aboil.
Across the street, camera and souvenir shops cater to tourists and it can get pretty tacky. But hey, if you want 3 t-shirts for 10 dollars, there's nothing wrong with getting a good deal at a tourist shop.
Along the street are a few interesting and unusual shops and little malls. Lots of shopping interest. You can buy a dulcimer or Venician glass, or a kazoo, if you want.
If you've seen it before, you can skip it. But you have to go there once at least.
Have some chowder in a sour dough bowl...tip a starving street musician....
565. JJBiener - 3/20/2001 11:18:29 PM
Anom - I always tip street musicians. Maybe it is just the musician in me, but if the guy is out there playing his heart out, he is going to get something from me for the effort.
I was just in New Orleans and there were plenty of street musicians. I was down by the river across from Jackson Square and I ran into a guitar player. We started talking and he offered to play whatever I wanted. I told him to pick a song, and he said he was going to play a Dylan song. He played If I Were a Carpenter. I told him, "You gain points because that is one of my favorite songs, but you lose points because that isn't a Dylan song. It was written and originally recorded by Tim Hardin." I gave him a couple of bucks anyway because he did a good job on the song. He had an original interpretation of it that I liked. He also played me an instrumental he wrote.
A couple of days later I ran into him while he was doing a duet with another guy. The second had an excellent voice. He could easily have made it on the coffee house circuit. It was strange to see him playing for tips in Jackson Square.
I was in NO for 5 days and easily gave out $25 in tips to street musicians.
566. CalGal - 3/20/2001 11:19:02 PM
I agree that Angel Island could be added to the list. I disagree about the boat tours, unless you have several hours with nothing better to do--and anything on my list is better.
Totally disagree about Fisherman's Wharf. In fact, Fielding, this next bit is very important to pass on to your friends: Do not eat at Fisherman's Wharf. Any dive in the City is better than the dreck that passes for food at Alioto's, Scoma's, or whatever they are calling the restaurants there these day.
A great seafood restaurant on the bay is right at the end of Market--the Waterfront. That's the place to eat if you want ambiance, seafood, and a water view. Not Fisherman's Wharf. Please. It is my life's goal to stop people from eating at those places.
The Wharf and Pier 39 are both horribly touristy, with no redeeming qualities--except the sea lions behind Pier 39, which can't be missed. I forget if July is in season, but I've never been there and not seen any, no matter the time of year.
Chowder in a sour dough bowl is touristy and expensive, and no street musicians are starving. Trust me on that one.
And what in the world would you tell your friends?
You tell your friends that you have more sense than to visit that tourist trap.
However, Fielding, if your friends are the touristy type--and they do exist--then anomieme's recommendations are the things that tourists go to see. They never are particularly impressed after they see them, but that's a different story.
I always assume people want to see quintessential Northern California. The real thing, the views, food, and ambiance that you won't find anywhere else. Pier 39 and FW are identical to anything you can find in Podunk, KC. I know, I've seen it myself.
567. JJBiener - 3/20/2001 11:22:08 PM
The wise and powerful CalGal has spoken!
568. CalGal - 3/20/2001 11:27:56 PM
Eh. Fielding knows his friends best. If they are the sort that runs to the Hard Rock Cafe in every city to get the teeshirt, then by all means, they should go to P39 and FW, do the boat tour, and get pictures of all those Chinese people walking around like they wuz in their home country!
It's not like I'm sending them off the beaten path. All the things I've mentioned are fairly ordinary places--no hole in the wall obscurities for me. But they aren't tourist traps with no inherent locational value. I consider it a disservice to send visitors to that sort of thing.
569. anomieme - 3/20/2001 11:28:47 PM
CalGal, Lighten up. I didn't recommend Pier 39 and I like clam chowder in a sourdough bowl.
But come on, not seeing Fisherman's Wharf is like not seeing the Eifel Tower. You gotta do it once.
And who doesn't have a couple hours to cruise the bay? How else do you get a bayview of the city and bridges - drive to Treasure Island?
Note: Saving grace for Pier 39. It has several public restrooms if you need them. They are conveniently located.
570. anomieme - 3/20/2001 11:31:28 PM
JJ,
CalGal's right. The street musicians here are probably doing okay. It is a gutsy thing to do, however, so I've always admired their spirit. It's hard work, and they make it such a better place. I see no problem with them making money.
571. CalGal - 3/20/2001 11:41:36 PM
But come on, not seeing Fisherman's Wharf is like not seeing the Eifel Tower.
No, it's not. Not seeing the Golden Gate Bridge or Lombard street might be like missing the Eiffel Tower. Not seeing Fisherman's Wharf is like forgetting to buy the postcard of the Eiffel Tower at deGaulle, maybe. Missing out on $50 coffee at the George V (is the George V still there? Haven't been to Paris in many years.) It's an insult to the Eiffel Tower--itself a fairly standard tourist spot--to compare it to the Wharf.
And who doesn't have a couple hours to cruise the bay?
Why bother cruising the Bay? There are wonderful views to be had from various vantage points and you don't have to sit on a loud noisy boat with 500 other tourists wearing I heart SF.
And the street musicians do more than okay. I forget the details, but it's not like any chump shows up and gets to perform. I think you have to pay for the license, which generally means you have to be good enough to make sufficient money to justify the fee.
572. anomieme - 3/21/2001 12:41:42 AM
Cal,
Does someone have to be wrong here? I say let's express our opinions and let the visitors decide. It's their time.
I like boats. I like the view from the boat. I like how the view changes as the boat moves along. No, you can't get the same view without the boat. You can however charter a sailboat for a half-day or a day, or take one of the smaller vessels that line the Wharf, if someone doesn't like tourists.
The Wharf, whether you like the experience or not, has a real presence to it. It is a real working Fisherman's Wharf. It has its charm and tradition and it helps define San Francisco.
Night.
573. CalGal - 3/21/2001 12:51:13 AM
Does someone have to be wrong here?
About the recommendation? Not at all. If you note in both 566 and 567, I said that your recommendation might be entirely apt, depending on Fielding's friends. Lord knows, tourist traps wouldn't be so popular if there weren't tourists to people them.
From that point on, I thought we were debating the relative value of Fisherman's Wharf, not whether or not Fielding's friends should check it out. You do realize that not even Willie Brown shares your opinion of FW, don't you? To say it's a minority opinion is to overstate its incidence among Bay Area folk.
I'm surprised you are from this area, though. Most locals consider it a point of honor to steer people away from the dumps. The ones who want that traps will have no trouble finding them.
574. JudithAtHome - 3/21/2001 8:37:59 AM
The street musicians here are probably doing okay. It is a gutsy thing to do, however, so I've always admired their spirit. It's hard work, and they make it such a better place. I see no problem with them making money.
Me, neither, and I always thought you tipped them because you enjoyed their music and appreciated the entertainment value, not because you assumed they were starving or lived in a garret.
You tip a piano player in a tuxedo at a fancy restaurant...because you like the music, not because you think he is scrounging for food.
575. anomieme - 3/21/2001 9:44:20 AM
CaLGal,
I've lived in the area a total of two years so I'm not exactly a native and I bow to your other recommendations (except maybe Lombard street).
I just can't imagine someone coming here and not at least checking out FW. Despite your disdain it is a SF landmark, and AFAIC, it's not a bad little stroll.
You may even be right about the food but I hope we don't start eating everything out of sanitized little plastic packets. Street food is part of the character of the place.
But as you said, my only intent was to recommend FW to Feilding, not to say it's the best place here.
576. anomieme - 3/21/2001 9:47:58 AM
Judith,
Yes I agree. The piano bar type is usually on a contract of some type, or minimum wage, and lives on tips, mush as a waiter might.
Street musicians probably need a permit of some kind, but I wouldn't expect they get any compensatiion besides tips. But I'm not well informed about it.
577. CalGal - 3/21/2001 12:21:03 PM
Where did I say one shouldn't tip street performers? The ones in the Wharf and Pier 39 and the environments make their money off of tips. I objected to the notion that they are starving. They are well recompensed--by tips--or they wouldn't be able to pay whatever fee it takes to get in and perform there.
I've lived in the area a total of two years so I'm not exactly a native
Oh! Okay. No doubt you are originally from Dubuque. (that is a joke)
If you ever take visitors around, do them a favor and avoid the tourist traps.
Street food is part of the character of the place.
FW has no "character", and "street food" (which was not what I was referring to anyway) is nothing more than the same food you get inside the very bad restaurants of the area with a 30% surcharge.
But I was saying to avoid Alioto's, Scoma's and the other big restaurant of the area--can't remember the names. They are simply horrible, as is the street food they serve. If for some reason people feel compelled to eat in that vicinity, go to Ghiradelli Square or walk up to Van Ness (101) and pick one of the corner joints on the way.
578. janjon - 3/21/2001 2:39:01 PM
LaGuardia.
Things have improved. At least in terms of the amenities available.
To wit, towards the center of the terminal (logical for a change) and on the lower level, there is a "restaurant" (almost fast food place in disguise but not quite) called Figs. Owned by Todd English of Olives fame in Boston and Las Vegas and even here in NYC now. (It got more or less panned in today's Times, deservedly so.)
I digress. Figs at least offers a fair variety of food which, based on the limited number I've tried (I only go there when I am delayed which, of course, is now part of the LaGuardia experience), is at least competently prepared and more flavorable than most airport dives.
579. janjon - 3/21/2001 2:40:20 PM
Fisherman's Wharf is an abomination. Much worse than our own South Street Seaport area and that is hardly a place I would recommend to tourists here (except perhaps to go see the couple of boats permanently moored there.)
580. anomieme - 3/21/2001 9:45:08 PM
Cal,
You didn't say street performers shouldn't be tipped. It was just general conversation as far as I can tell.
CalGal, JanJon: Me thinks thou dost protest too much. Like it or not, FW is part of the SF experience.
581. Erin R. - 3/21/2001 9:59:21 PM
I have never been to FW. What's it all about?
582. Erin R. - 3/21/2001 10:00:11 PM
BTW, La Guardia wasn't so bad, but then, I was only inside it for about five minutes.
583. anomieme - 3/22/2001 12:08:57 AM
Erin, Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean our current conflict or the Wharf itself?
584. CalGal - 3/22/2001 12:27:02 AM
Anomieme,
Sigh. Yes, you've busted me. I tell people to stay away from Fisherman's Wharf because it's my life's goal to deny them the essential San Francisco experience. I can't bear to share. The hicks from Podunk might find that tacky tawdry boil on the backside of the docks so charming that they'll stay forever and degrade our fair city's remarkably high standard of terminal coolness.
But surely you can't blame me. It's a worthwhile goal, after all, keeping God's country pure. After all, somehow you snuck in when the appointed personnell weren't paying attention, and now look what we've got. Some hyuk oohing and ahing over the Rice a Roni view, ordering moo goo gai pan and sweet n sour pork at the China Town Holiday Inn buffet, standing in line at the earthquake simulator at Ripleys, and complaining because the trolley car ride isn't a round trip and stuck you down in the financial district where they only serve clam chowder on Fridays and never in that sourdough bowl.
It's important to stay alert. You'll understand when you've been here longer--or find yourself forced to leave because you can no longer bear the disdain we all demonstrate towards your inability to meet our standards.
In the meantime, Fielding, we've got all we can handle with anomieme. So please, tell them. Avoid the Wharf at all costs. If they're hicks, the City is safe. If they're reasonable souls, they'll thank you for the advice.
585. CalGal - 3/22/2001 12:28:58 AM
Erin,
I believe that the Ripley's cue above gives you all the information you need to know. It's just terminal tackyville--Ripley's museum, Haunted House, overpriced teeshirt shops, faux "sidewalk restaurants", manufactured "aura" of Old San Francisco.
586. anomieme - 3/22/2001 12:48:59 AM
Cal,
How do you know so much about the area? Did you actually go see for yourself?
Forgive me if I think it's funny you put so much energy into this non-controversy. You know, 99 percent of people will visit the Wharf to see what it's all about.
The CalGal tour: "Okay folks, Pier 39 is straight ahead". "Walk directly to the sealions and DO NOT look left". "If you look left - about a hundred yards down yonder - you may be forever tainted by having seen the Wharf!"
Everyone goes to the Wharf, for goodness sake.
587. CalGal - 3/22/2001 12:55:21 AM
You clearly aren't cut out for the task, mieme. But no matter. Your real estate will appreciate nicely; it wasn't a wasted trip.
Everyone does not go to the Wharf. Seriously. And that's pretty much exactly what happens when I take people to Pier 39 to see the sea lions, except I apologize. "Sorry for all this tacky shit, but wait til you see the seals. It's a kick."
588. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2001 7:39:21 AM
Cal, there's no need to be so snide...people have differing interests and somehow, Fishermans Wharf has become the stuff of legend in tour guide books so all of us who take a peek can probably live with being branded yahoos.
Besides, bottom line, fleecing us at tacky traps adds to the tourist dollar, which helps keep your pristine city such a beautiful haven of the eternally cool.
589. anomieme - 3/22/2001 9:34:16 AM
Cal,
Just to clarify, when I talk about the Wharf, I mean the wharf itself - the boats, the view. I couldn't agree with you more about the tacky shit like Riplys and the wax museum. A lot of crap was built around the warp itself that I wouldn't waste time on.
Aside from that, there are some unique shops in the area too.
Peir 39 is probably the tackiest place of all. It didn't even evolve, it was was built to be what it is - tacky tourist shopping.
590. anomieme - 3/22/2001 9:50:54 AM
Judith, Note from Debuque....
I think any snideness detected is a Northern California thing. It usually concerns a very minor point and comes suddenly out of left field, and is often humerous.
But what do I know?
591. Dusty - 3/22/2001 9:55:52 AM
And I get busted for being earnest? Huh!
592. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2001 10:00:05 AM
Dusty:
You be frank; I'll be earnest.
593. Dusty - 3/22/2001 10:08:45 AM
Hmmm sounds inviting.
(As an aside, I recenty read The Importance of Being Earnest. Delightful book, but wrong thread, I guess.)
594. CalGal - 3/22/2001 12:28:47 PM
Dusty,
Thank you. I thought no one had noticed.
595. Frankster - 3/22/2001 5:10:02 PM
You be frank; I'll be earnest.
No, I'll be Frank!
Jus wanted to share this which I just got from a friend. British Airways is launching non-stop service from Lindbergh Field ( O-o-o-o-o-h, we've hit the big time! ) here in San Diego in a month or so, and as part of its introductory service is offering unbelievable fares. My friend is heading to London in July for $258.00 -- ROUNDTRIP !!!
Can you believe that ? Shades of Freddie Laker (Or was that Mercury or Fender ? [:-)] ). Was that the name of the guy who tried to launch cheap fares from the US and failed ?
My latest hang-up regarding my upcoming trip to Paris is whether to toe along a Sony Camcorder. I don't really want to, but I'll be meeting some nephews and nieces out there and I'll love for them to have something to remember their trip to France by.
By the way, Judith, thanks once more for the tip on black and white film for Pere Lachaise. I would have never thought of it.
596. anomieme - 3/22/2001 6:51:07 PM
Frank, 258 dollars!! My $700 fare looks worse and worse.
That price would justify a Southwest flight to connect.
I believe it was Freddie Laker.
597. LimeGirl - 3/22/2001 7:49:50 PM
Do you have a digital camera, Frank? I love mine so much, and it is really easy to share pictures with people by just slapping them up on a web page... instant memories! Movies seem more cumbersome to share, but maybe it's just been too long since I've tried.
My trip last weekend was a little one, to Victoria, BC, via boat from Seattle. The best part of the boat ride was going through a whole pod of Orcas on the way back. They were jumping near the boat and we got many good looks at them -- no camera shots, though, in the one picture I took the flash created a glare on the window.
I think the girls would really have fun in Victoria, and I want to plan a trip that would go all around the Straits of Juan de Fuca, taking ferries as much as possible. I think we could go from Seattle via boat to Port Townsend, drive to Port Angeles, take the ferry to Victoria, then drive up the coast a bit and take the ferry over to Vancouver, then head on home. That would minimize driving time and give us lots of time on the water!
598. CalGal - 3/22/2001 7:54:15 PM
I agree about digital cameras. They're wonderful.
Bummer about the pictures of the Orcas, but it sounds wonderful. How long would your planned trip take?
599. LimeGirl - 3/22/2001 8:01:22 PM
I think it would be 3 or 4 nights? One overnight in each place would be ideal. It could be done in less, but that would create more rushing around than I'd like. There's only about 3 hours of driving time to get to Vancouver, and then about 3 hours from Vancouver home. Grandma's house is conveniently on the way back from Vancouver, so that would break up the driving even more.
600. anomieme - 3/22/2001 9:09:28 PM
About cameras...regardless of what else I might have, I carry a small point-and-shoot (no zoom)loaded with 35mm film - usually 400 speed. You never know when the light might turn magical. Nothing captures it better than film.
I think more travel photos have been ruined by flash than for any other reason. The first thing I learn about a camera is how to turn the flash off. It's usually not needed, doesn't reach very far anyway, and often prevents the camera from exposing correctly.
601. Frankster - 3/22/2001 10:18:07 PM
Anomieme,
Those offers rarely come around, and my friend just happened to get lucky by living in the right place at the right time. That fare, $700.00, is still pretty good for a roundtrip flight to London.
By the way, how long did you live in San Diego, and what bar, if any, did you frequent in Pacific Beach ?
Limegirl,
A digital camera purchase is on the agenda, but first I want to purchase a new Mac before I buy anything like that. I'm also hoping that their prices will come down a bit first. I can wait, as I'm still trying to figure out all that pixel crap.
602. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2001 10:27:18 PM
Frankie:
When do you leave for Paris?
603. Frankster - 3/22/2001 10:32:29 PM
Judith,
I leave next Friday and return on the 13th of April. Thanks again on the B&W tip -- pure genius on your part I tell ya. :-)
604. anomieme - 3/22/2001 10:37:16 PM
Frank,
I only wished I lived in San Diego. I lived in Highland, near San Bernardino. I visited friends in Oceanside and San Diego and spent weekends there. Tried to get a job with the Navy there, but no luck.
I'm not much of a bar person so I'm not familiar. I'd rent a small sailboat on the bay (somewhere near the Marriott - memory fades), and I'd occasionally have a drink there on the patio, or have lunch.
It's been years. I remember San Diego being beautiful, smog-free, and it was a very do-able city in terms of traffic and accessability.
I'd move there in a minute.
605. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2001 10:38:07 PM
Frank:
YGM, as soon as I write it....
606. Laura C - 3/22/2001 10:45:58 PM
JJ - just saw 562. We are here with 20,000 science teachers. Had an enjoyable dinner tonight at Harry's.
Nice town, but I am puzzled. Who came up with the concept of deep-fried ravioli?
607. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2001 10:47:21 PM
Someone from Texas, no doubt..they would fry lettuce if it weren't so much of a health food.
608. anomieme - 3/22/2001 10:52:43 PM
Judith,
You crack me up.
609. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2001 10:54:24 PM
anomieme:
We are sould mates, I think.
610. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2001 10:55:07 PM
God, I'm tired...SOUL, soul mates.
611. anomieme - 3/22/2001 11:00:19 PM
Judith,
I'm flattered and honored. I'm beginning to feel like a real Motie. Seems I've had the falling out with CalGal, found a soul mate, and now all I need is for someone to call me an idiot. I'm sure it won't be long.
612. JudithAtHome - 3/22/2001 11:04:27 PM
Well, I won't take the cheap way out and do it....you need the full impact of having it done by someone you've driven to it...earning it, so to speak.
I'm sorry to leave such good company but I am soooo tired. Maybe I'll catch you before you go off to work tomorrow.
'night....
613. Fielding - 3/22/2001 11:10:07 PM
Idjit!
614. anomieme - 3/22/2001 11:10:49 PM
You're right. I'm sure I'll earn it, if I haven't already. I'm gone too. Night.
615. Shannon - 3/22/2001 11:12:01 PM
Judith, I think it could very well have been someone from Louisiana. We fry everything here too. My relatives have been known to fry rolls. In LARD, no less.
This was at a hog butchering. But still.
I first encountered fried pasta at Copeland's, in fact. Their spinach dip is served with deep-fried bowtie pasta.
616. anomieme - 3/22/2001 11:12:35 PM
Fielding, You have to REALLY mean it. But thanks. Night.
617. Frankster - 3/23/2001 2:18:55 PM
Anomie,
It's been years. I remember San Diego being beautiful, smog-free, and it was a very do-able city in terms of traffic and accessability.
I knew there was something I meant to respond on last night. Yes, 15 years ago that might have been so, but that isn't the case today. At one time, I could go from watching the surf at Mission Beach to enjoying any snow in our mountains in 35 minutes, but that isn't the case anymore. Our freeways have become basically parking lots during rush hour, and I'm afraid the vista isn't so smog free anymore. The changes have been somewhat more pronounced in the last five or six years.
It's still a beautiful city, and its 72 degree year round temperature average will keep this place my home, but geez has it changed. :-(
By the way, I love your handle.
What happened ? I tried to post this, and it came back blank.
618. Erin R. - 3/23/2001 2:41:46 PM
I am stuck, stuck, stuck at LaGuardia. A flight that was supposed to leave at 2:10 is not leaving until 5:35.
619. Frankster - 3/23/2001 2:53:02 PM
Erin,
Ouch! I hope there is plenty of reading material around ?
One more time: I'll be stuck in Toronto for almost two hours. Is there anything within walking distance that I might enjoy, or is their airport out in the boonies away from everything ?
620. janjon - 3/23/2001 3:03:21 PM
Toronto's airport is out in the sticks, about 15 miles from downtown.
Toronto has a lot of sticks. It is one of the most spread out cities around. One of those that has little clumps of relatively tall (15-20 story) buildings scattered here and there for miles.
It also has, however, a relatively large downtown area, starting at the Lake front and then going up for at least a couple of miles.
It should be a lot more vibrant city than it is.
621. Erin R. - 3/23/2001 3:07:21 PM
Lots of reading material. I want wireless Internet access for situations such as these.
I'm not going to stay on long. I had to send an e-mail to our CEO's assistant scheduling a couple of appearances in my territory and it could not wait until next week. The rates here are high--$.65/minute, $5/first five minutes.
622. Frankster - 3/23/2001 3:12:31 PM
Thanks, Janjon. I think. :-(
Looks like I'm going to need some reading material.
Good luck, Erin.
623. janjon - 3/23/2001 3:20:26 PM
Well, you could wait and buy some at the airport in Toronto. The CDN dollar is pathetic vis-a-vis ours.
Also the Toronto airport is about a souless as you can get. Not a wit of charm. Just clean and efficient.
624. Frankster - 3/23/2001 3:26:11 PM
Janjon,
I'm easily distracted if I bring a book or two along, so I generally opt to read just about any paper I can get my hands on at an airport terminal. I like reading what others read daily across this great country of ours, as well as in other countries.
Besides, I want to travel light this year, and paperbacks will just add to the weight.
625. anomieme - 3/23/2001 11:10:29 PM
Frank,
Thanks for the San Diego update. I havn't been there since....93, I think. Sounds like a LOT of folks wanted to move there. I guess it's expected citys will grow.
I lived in Denver for a few years in the mid 70's and over the next two decades I watched it change from the perfect-sized town into a big city with suburban sprawl.
Have fun in Paris! Hope the weather's good for your visit.
626. JJBiener - 3/24/2001 12:24:16 AM
Laura - When Diva came to St. Louis she had a nearly violent reaction to toasted ravioli. I don't know who came up with it, but it is a staple at almost all Italian restaurants around here.
If you have time, I suggest Hannegan's and Jake's Steaks in Laclede's Landing. If you want something to drink, the Morgan Street Brewery (next to Hannegan's) is one of my favorite microbreweries. The Spaghetti Factory is good but usually the wait is outrageous. There also some decent clubs on the Landing and it should be in walking distance of your hotel.
BTW, We took Bubbaette to Hannegan's when she was here for a conference.
627. Jenerator - 3/24/2001 8:34:15 AM
Frank,
A two-hour delay isn't that long. Bring a book or buy some breakfeast when you're there. The time will go buy quickly. The Toronto airport is just as forgettable as most airports.
One of the worst I've been in before the "huge revovation" was the El Paso airport. I'm still convinced that the worst place to go though immigration is at the Miami International airport.
628. PelleNilsson - 3/25/2001 1:08:15 PM
A couple of recent newspaper articles have confirmed what friends lately have told me: Parisians are no longer as snotty as they used to be and English is acceptable there.
So, Americans, if you want to get "a sense of Europe", Paris is da place.
629. arkymalarky - 3/25/2001 1:58:34 PM
I liked the people there when I went. Of course we didn't go any place very fancy, but just the interactions on the streets, the tube, stores, etc, was very pleasant. The least friendly people were the Germans, and they weren't rude or unfriendly, just cooler than any other country we went through. At least that was my Europe-on-a-shoestring experience.
630. Frankster - 3/25/2001 2:19:31 PM
Pelle,
Maybe I'm naive and I also realize it sounds a bit trite, but I find if you treat people the way you would want to be treated and respected, that people will respond in kind regardless of where it is one is at. I didn't find the French rude or snotty at all the last time I was there, as some bent over backwards to assist yours truly. Some of those who feel the French are snotty probably played a hand in the interaction by assuming an ugly American stance to begin with ... I wouldn't take too kindly to anyone who felt that they were superior to me in some way, or felt that I should cater to them because they are Americans also.
Jen,
I'll probably eat then. I want to travel as light as posible this time so books are probably out for the moment.
Hi, Arky!
( Time to go get some breakfast )
631. arkymalarky - 3/25/2001 2:22:11 PM
Hey Frank! I hope you have a great time in Paris.
632. Frankster - 3/25/2001 2:33:35 PM
Thanks, Arky. I hope so too ( I will ) !!!
The only thing I'm debating at the moment is how to spend my evenings. Usually one is tired from all the sightseeing and walking one has done for a day, but I would like to do something on a free evening.
What's this Moulon Rouge(sp?) all about ?
I better get. I have a lot to do today. :-)
633. JudithAtHome - 3/25/2001 4:59:40 PM
What's this Moulon Rouge(sp?) all about ?
It's an overpriced tourist trap.
Save your money and go out late for a meal at a sidewalk cafe and watch the evening parade of interesting people stroll by or go to a movie at one of the excellent theatres on that street I can't spell, the Champs whatever. They have American movies subtitled in French and they bring the snack bar to you...they even sell you ice cream in your seat. Find out what time the movie starts and go about 30 minutes early to see the ads and trailers; everyone goes early.
634. ScottLoar - 3/25/2001 5:58:40 PM
Mouton Rouge is now prohibited owing to the hoof-and-mouth scare.
635. CalGal - 3/25/2001 6:03:56 PM
The French do movies very well, except that irritating bit about tipping the ushers.
636. Autodaffy - 3/25/2001 8:04:17 PM
I saw Woodstock (the movie) in Paris. It did wonders for curing homesickness.
The sidewalk cafe scene is exciting. Parisians are so into seeing and being seen. Pick a good location.
To say that the Moulin Rouge and other joints like are overpriced is an understatement. You can spend a fortune in these traps.
637. janjon - 3/26/2001 5:52:15 PM
Put it this way - Moulin Rouge will set you back a minimum of $200.
Judith is correct - movies in Paris are fun.
Another thought -pick up one of the weekly guides (at least one has a section at the back in English.) Pick one of the less expensive jazz or blues bars (i.e. - one that doesn't have an exorbitant cover or two drinks at $30 a pop minimum) and just go and have fun. Or, pick up one of the student oriented guides (the Lets Go series is excellent) and pick out some cheapie places to go from there.
638. MsIvoryTower - 3/26/2001 8:13:50 PM
I just rambled in the student quarter by the University, didn't find one bad place. Cafe's and sidewalk people watching were among my favorite things in Paris. Of course, I was a poor student when I was there, so it was my best form of entertainment.
639. thoughtful - 3/28/2001 10:38:47 AM
I'm back! All I can say is what a fantastic trip. I highly recommend it to anyone. The best part was when we boarded the boat in Costa Rica and went up on the sun deck and watched as the Captain & crew unfurled the sails, they filled with wind and we literally sailed off into the sunset in the Pacific. Ain't nothin' quite like it.
Once on board we went to private islands where the "advance party" went on shore to set up umbrellas and bring drinks, and we landed to do snorkeling and swimming and such. Absolutely wonderful.
Boat normally carries 60 passengers, but we had only 37, with 30 crew. Definitely worth every penny.
Oh, Scott Loar, I can see why you found Costa Rica so unmemorable. The rain forest and the volcanoes are the attraction. The city is a bore. It's definitely not a place to go for culture. But if you're into nature and birds and such, it's a good place to go, as is Panama.
You can see details of the trip at http://www.tauck.com and select Central America and look for "Treasures of Costa Rica & Panama" trip.
640. ScottLoar - 3/28/2001 10:49:40 AM
Costa Rica does that - it just sort of fades into the background as other memories crowd it out. Even the volcano and rain forest walk (not a trek by any stretch of the word) were okay but, again, not impressing themselves on one's memory for long.
641. ScottLoar - 3/28/2001 10:51:11 AM
What do I remember most about Costa Rica? Hummingbirds in the mornings, coffee and the best coffee liaquer in the world - Salisca.
642. ScottLoar - 3/28/2001 10:52:18 AM
corrigendum: liqueur
643. Fielding - 3/28/2001 10:56:11 AM
"A couple of recent newspaper articles have confirmed what friends lately have told me: Parisians are no longer as snotty as they used to be and English is acceptable there."
I was there last year. I found that when you were in a social interraction with people, they were very nice, but that strangers were as snotty as ever.
644. marjoribanks - 3/28/2001 11:05:35 AM
Fraank,
I understand your reluctance to take books along, but do try to get your hands on the absolutely outstanding Rough Guide to Paris. It's superb, detailed and heavy on background and history. By far the best even in the Rough Guide series and a model of what a truly useful (as opposed to pretty) guidebook should be.
Also, if I were you I'd avoid the big-time tourist trail (the Moulin Rouge is full of Japanese and Russians only) and go off the beated track. If you do HAVE to go see wildly overpriced titty, go to the Lido, it at least will occasionally have an actual French person enjoying the show.
I highly recommend the not-often visited Musee Marmottan and Musee Picasso.
If you want a restaurant recommendation, I will share with you a closely guarded restaurant secret. It boasts of maybe 12-15 seats and features delicious simple fench country cooking with very genial hosts. You'll have to share a table probably.
If you do want the details, let me know. You will have to go though and report back here about your experience. This is the fee for the information.
645. ScottLoar - 3/28/2001 11:07:23 AM
Accept the offer, Fielding, even as you understand that openly reciting your experiences to the review of Marjoribanks is a terrible, terrible price to pay.
646. marjoribanks - 3/28/2001 11:08:50 AM
I'll say this. A couple of years ago I went to the Lido and saw this unbelievably athletic African-American woman who was doing outrageous backflips and somersaults all the while looking quite scrumptious.
The only time I've seen anything remotely of interest at a cabaret.
647. marjoribanks - 3/28/2001 11:10:11 AM
Ha. Don't frighten him off, Loar.
648. ScottLoar - 3/28/2001 11:11:08 AM
Hah! A friend visiting Paris was treated to the sight of a beautiful French-Vietnamese singer, backlit, wearing no underwear. Beat that.
649. marjoribanks - 3/28/2001 11:12:31 AM
More interesting if candlelit, serving me dinner.
But one can't have it all.
650. thoughtful - 3/28/2001 12:16:28 PM
We saw whales, dolphin, flying fish from the boat, the milky way and meteors at night, and tons and tons of butterflies. Some quite beautiful. The coffee was very good and I had a lot of rice and beans. At the hotel, a couple had a most fabulous wedding including 10-piece orchestra, 300 guests and fireworks. Really added to the stay even though we weren't invited!
Also good seafood from the pacific side and lots of wonderful tropical fruits.
The other memory of both costa rica and panama was not seeing a single building anywhere -- rural or urban -- without yards fenced and bars on every window. Private security was quite visible at all locations. Not exactly a warm and fuzzy feeling.
651. JudithAtHome - 3/28/2001 12:25:22 PM
Reality has a way of intruding in paradise.
652. Frankster - 3/28/2001 1:02:21 PM
Ony here for a sec ( I have so much to do before I take off on Friday morning, and as usual, I've waited until the 11th hour to get moving on them --such a laggard. Tsk, tsk ).
Thanks to everyone for your tips and insights. I feel a heck of a lot more prepared this time around than I did last year.
Thanks ,Marjori. I wasn't exactly looking for a "tit bar" (( How many times do I have to tell you guys !? It's legs, legs, legs with yours truly ! (-: )) while I was out there, but if there is something along those lines which only Paris can offer, I'll consider it. I'm glad to see that some in here are just as me when it comes to people watching. I love doing that, and I'll make an effort to stake out an area ( bar, sidewalk cafe ) where such can take place. The only book I'm taking with me so far, is the current version of Lonely Planet's France.Not too in depth in its descriptions, but superficially very handy and very compact.
... As far as the cuisine goes, I'll probably just exist on their pastry shops. ;-)
Where's this Lido, by the way ? I hope it's not in the area I became lost in the day I arrived there last year. I think the area began with a "P", and it was laced with seedy X-rated arcades and bookstores.
Thanks to all of you once more!
653. Fielding - 3/28/2001 6:15:01 PM
ScottLoar:
"Accept the offer, Fielding, even as you understand that openly reciting your experiences to the review of Marjoribanks is a terrible, terrible price to pay."
He wasn't talking to me. I wouldn't ask banks for food advice, as he is all hype and has no taste.
654. HollyW - 3/28/2001 10:04:05 PM
I drove to the Berkshires Monday, in the piece 'o shit truck that has the muffler starting to come off and the tape player in mono. People were driving like complete assholes more so than usual, going 50 in the slow lane and hanging right on my tail in the fast lane while I was clipping along at a reasonable 70. I considered playing with my breaklight a bit to torment them but thought of my daughter growing up motherless and refrained.
The Berkshire Hills had that brown fuzzy look from lack of leaves. As mountains go, they work, but don't exactly make one catch his breath. When I first moved out there four years ago they got on my nerves. I felt as if they were going to fall on top of me.
Great Barrington, Massachusetts, population 8,000, now has three Japanese restuarants, and continues to have no Japanese population to speak of. My friend and I went out for sushi, and then went back to her apartment and she dyed my hair an unnatural shade of red while we listened to a Yaz CD. Everything is closed in the Berkshires in March, even the ski slopes. We watched Howard Stern on TV and turned in early. (For me, that means 11:30.)
The next day we walked into downtown Great Barrington and had breakfast in a diner with another friend. There was still a few inches of crisp, dirty snow on the ground. The windchill was under 20. Few people were on the streets; an elderly woman passed us and smiled, "Good morning, girls!" We smiled back. Since living back in grumpy urban-suburban North of Boston, I'd forgotten how friendly strangers can be.
655. HollyW - 3/28/2001 10:09:52 PM
Later we went shopping for summer clothes for my daughter. I normally hate shopping, but we went to an outlet mall that is cut into the top of a hill. It is designed like a Main Street, open to the air, which would be rotten except the sweeping view of the valley below makes up for the affects of the weather.
Then I got on the Pike and rattled the three hours home.
(Okay, why are the toll-takers on the Pike so surly? They get excellent benefits, considering they don't do anything. New Hampshire toll-takers are much, much nicer.)
656. Shannon - 3/28/2001 10:23:14 PM
The Berkshires got on your nerves? That's funny.
657. HollyW - 3/28/2001 10:32:13 PM
Well, I'm a funny kind of gal.
Really, though--why does that strike you as funny?
658. Shannon - 3/28/2001 10:36:15 PM
Just seems odd that mountains could annoy you. Even for someone as easily annoyed as I am.
Of course, I have no day-to-day experience living with mountains, so what do I know?
659. HollyW - 3/28/2001 10:45:07 PM
They made me feel hemmed in. Anywhere I would drive, there one would be, right in my way.
I'm used to the ocean. Other than the Berkshires and a brief stint in L.A., I've always lived a comfortable walk from the ocean. There's a whole different feel between the mountains and the ocean.
I assume someplace like Colorado would make me stark staring mad.
660. Shannon - 3/28/2001 10:51:17 PM
Oh, that makes sense. I think I'm used to being hemmed in--not from mountains, but we've got lots of trees here, so no expansive views or wide-open spaces. I remember a coworker I had who had moved here from one of the plains states--she said she got claustrophobia when she first lived here.
And the ocean is an entirely different thing. I lived on Nantucket for a year. Incredible. I grew quite fond of falling asleep to the sound of waves.
That said, I missed real trees when I lived there. I still remember when my roommate went off-island in August, after we'd been there exclusively for about 4 months. He called and said "It's great here in America. Things are so cheap, and the trees are so big.
661. Erin R. - 3/29/2001 4:45:58 PM
I just found out that my company is renting Universal Studios in Orlando for our user conference. I know there was talk of Orlando upthread. What's Universal Studios like?
662. Indiana Jones - 3/29/2001 4:51:44 PM
Mediocre, unless you have kids.
I was at a conference there a couple of years ago and thought I wouldn't have waited in line for hardly any of it, except the conference had rented the place out for the night. I like the T2, Twister, and one other ride (which I've forgotten), but all of it seemed too tame for adults, more aimed at families.
Pleasure Island (not part of Universal Studios) has a nice rotating dance floor as I recall.
663. CalGal - 3/29/2001 5:02:32 PM
T2 is good. It's not all that bad; I prefer the Disneyworld parks but it should be fun if you've got it mostly to yourself.
664. thoughtful - 3/30/2001 8:59:24 AM
Well, perhaps I'm easy to please, or perhaps I can't miss the opportunity to disagree with IJ ):-), but I enjoyed universal studios -- I was there several years back...enjoyed especially back to the future, T2, Hitchcock being a hitchcock fan, and king kong was mild but fun. Go there expecting it to be what it is and you will enjoy yourself. Sorta like eating a veggie burger: expect it to be a hamburger and you'll be disappointed; accept it for what it is and you'll like it.
665. OhioSTOPAS - 4/2/2001 3:17:01 PM
A headline from today's "Yahoo" news:
Report: Airline Service Declining
Now THERE'S a scoop!
666. CalGal - 4/2/2001 5:31:38 PM
hahahaha.
Say it's not so!
667. Jon Ferguson - 4/2/2001 9:09:17 PM
Erin
Universal is okay. I really liked MIB. T2 was okay. Many rides suck, though. I've got their brochure right here in front of me, if you've got any questions.
Islands of Adventure (an adjoining theme park that charges separate admission) is WAY better. The Amazing Spiderman is the most awesome ride I've ever been on. Doctor Doom's Fearfall is okay, but not as much fun as the Tower of Terror (which isn't as much fun as I thought it would be either) at Disney. The Incredible Hulk Coaster is great (especially if you get a front seat) although I don't recommend going on it twice in a row (I did so and then almost threw up when I went on a kiddie ride, The Cat in the Hat.) Jurassic Park is fun. Poseidon's Fury didn't impress me, but my ex loved it. Dueling Dragons is another great coaster. That's about it.
If you love to dance, you've got to go to Pleasure Island some night that you're there. I think that's run by Disney but again, separate admission.
668. grannypatsy - 4/8/2001 3:11:04 AM
Chicago plans update: Daughter and I will meet in Chicago May 17.To date the most interesting thing I've learned is that everyone who hears that I am going there instantly tell me about the Architerctural tour up the river.First reservation I made was for the tour but no one has mentioned anything else. Cheez, we also have cubs tickets and Symphony Hall tickets to hear YouYoMa in Bach recital. Don't know why I'm surprised by river recommendation except I've always thought of the Fine Arts Museum as the big thing.
c
669. dusty - 4/8/2001 12:05:09 PM
grannypatsy
There was quite a bit of good advice upthread. Like you, I was surprised at the boat tours. I haven't taken it, and I was unaware that it was such an attraction.
Yes, the Art Museum is great. The Natural History Museum was a pleasant surprise. I went in expecting a dry museum, and found it fascinating.
I love Science Museum, and the Chicago one is famous, but I was disappointed. This was years ago, and they may have refurbished, but many exhibits were not working. I put it near the bottom of the list of science museum I have visited, below even the generally dreary London museum.
I've always enjoyed Carson's for Ribs. It may have evolved into a tourist place by now, but I'd rank it number one in terms of quality of ribs (plus, the twice-baked potatoes are excellent).
The lake front is a pleasant surprise to many visitors. While it is obvious form looking at a map that the city is on a lake, many people are surprised to see that virtually all of the lake front (sans a quarter mile stretch at Navy Pier) is a park. I enjoy north of the pier, watching the two-on-two volleyball on the beach (almost across from the Drake).
I also like the Billy Goat Tavern, reputedly (although there is disagreement) the inspiration for the Saturday Night "cheezborger" sketch. If for no other reason, it points out that there is a lower level to Chicago, something many visitors miss. It is roughly under the Wrigley Building.
670. grannypatsy - 4/8/2001 9:08:20 PM
Thankns Dusty
671. PelleNilsson - 4/9/2001 1:37:57 PM
On Wednesday we leave for our semi-arctic cruise that is not really a cruise.
Check out the map here. The ship stops at 37 places along the way.
672. JudithAtHome - 4/9/2001 1:41:58 PM
Pelle:
Link didn't work for me....
673. PelleNilsson - 4/9/2001 1:48:50 PM
Judith
I works for me also after I cleaned out my disk and memory caches. Let's see if somebody else comes around.
674. JudithAtHome - 4/9/2001 2:14:13 PM
Pelle:
It worked for me after I had a problem somewhere else and rebooted...sorry.
Looks like a fabulous trip! How come you say it's a cruise that's not really a cruise?
675. PelleNilsson - 4/9/2001 3:00:09 PM
This shipping line is part of Norway's national communications infrastructure. There are no all-weather roads connecting north and south Norway. So for us it's a cruise, but for most passngers (and goods) it's a way of getting from A to B.
676. thoughtful - 4/9/2001 3:02:21 PM
Pelle, it looks nice, but Brrrr, cold. How dark is it up there these days? We're getting about 13 hrs daylight here.
677. PelleNilsson - 4/9/2001 3:18:23 PM
thoughtful
The spring equinox has passed which means there is more daylight the further north you go. I guess we'll have at least 16 hours at the top. It will probably be chilly but not freezing. This whole stretch of coast is ice-free due to the Gulf Stream.
678. thoughtful - 4/9/2001 3:20:35 PM
does it rain a lot?
679. thoughtful - 4/9/2001 3:21:52 PM
how long will the trip take?
680. PelleNilsson - 4/9/2001 3:28:10 PM
The weather is notorously unreliable. We just hope there won't be a lot of fog. The ship leaves Bergen at 8 pm April 11 and arrives Kirkenes at 10.30 am April 17.
681. thoughtful - 4/9/2001 3:53:05 PM
That sounds most interesting and restful. I hope you enjoy it very much and that the weather is with you all the way.
682. PelleNilsson - 4/9/2001 4:00:10 PM
Thanks. I will report back, perhaps at length.
683. sakonige - 4/9/2001 4:05:53 PM
Message # 682
Can I post in your thread while you are gone? Of course, you can delete everything when you get back.
684. PelleNilsson - 4/9/2001 4:20:15 PM
Post away dear.
685. thoughtful - 4/9/2001 4:22:26 PM
Why with that last message did I suddenly get an image of someone riding a horse at a trot on an english saddle?
686. sakonige - 4/11/2001 12:04:19 AM
This evening I watched a really sappy movie starring Wynona Ryder and Richard Gere, called Autumn in New York. It was an utterly predictable soap opera with Wynona dying of an implausible heart ailment in Richard's arms, but the photography made New York look quite lovely. I guess maybe I will go see the place someday.
687. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 12:18:05 AM
sak - You're in the Pacific Northwest aren't you?
688. sakonige - 4/11/2001 12:21:33 AM
Yes.
I went to New Jersey for a few days a couple of years ago, but I guess that's not the same as New York.
689. JJBiener - 4/11/2001 12:32:32 AM
Sak - I have been to New Jersey a couple of times on business. It was rather underwhelming. New York is a fascinating cultural experience. Since Guiliani cleaned up much of the crime I wouldn't mind going back and spending some time in NY. The problem is that everything there is so expensive. It tends to drain the travel budget rather quickly. If I am going to go to an expensive city, I think I would rather go to San Fran or London. I generally stick with more modest cities with interesting areas like New Orleans, Memphis and Chicago. They are also a lot closer for me.
690. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 7:26:07 AM
Theater, Museums, Cadence, Central Park...New York is the Belly of the Beast, a vital alive city that forecasts movement elsewhere. Walks around the Financial District, views of the Hudson Marina, Sports and more Sports, Midtown shopping, young professionals consumed with the beat of their career, upper East Side affluence, subway etiquette, human diversity...it is a neat place, just bring your Visa card.
691. JudithAtHome - 4/11/2001 8:18:54 AM
PP:
A second career in the making...what, they don't take American Express, Mr. Ad Man?
692. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:05:31 PM
Me? I hate NY...but then again that's where my in-laws lived. I also hate FL...but then again, that's where my parents spend the winters....is there a pattern here?
693. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:12:33 PM
Actually, NY is a great place to visit. No other city like it on earth. It's just such a pain to get to. DC, fly into national, hit the metro and you have the city at your feet. NYC, fly to LGA or JFK, then scratch your head trying to figure out the best way to get to Manhattan.
694. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:12:53 PM
695. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:14:37 PM
NY really is very beautiful, in its own Gotham-like way. It's particularly appealing in summer and fall. In summer, as a matter of fact, there's nowhere else on the planet I'd rather be.
It also does not at all have to be expensive. Yes, hotels are fairly expensive but everything else can be extremely cheap.
696. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:15:11 PM
OK, but say you do manage to make it to Manhattan, expect to get ripped off even if your pocket isn't picked, as you will given the price of meals, hotels, merchandise, etc. (Several years ago they said a small store on 5th ave. has to take in over $100,000 per day just to pay the rent. Don't know what that is in today's $$.)
697. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:17:46 PM
Banks...you know what I look like if we meet in the Apple.. I"ll be looking for a big shot in short pants and Yankee hat.
698. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:18:56 PM
Of course, if you want to experience NYC cheaply you have to have a modicum of enterprise and be willing to tread off the beaten path. It's not difficult since Manhattan (for instance) is so small.
Cheap doesn't mean nasty, by the way. Many of my absolute favorite NYC things to do and restaurants to eat in are super-reasonable.
699. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:19:03 PM
Majori, Summers in NY? I disagree! My in-laws, life timers that they were, always left the city in the summer as it was the hottest, smelliest awfulest place on earth to be. Walking the streets in 95 degree weather with 99% humidity and you swear it just can't get any hotter, you cross over a subway great and get blasted with 120 degree air that smells something unlike any other smell on earth. An ex-co-worker used to fantasize about NYC especially in the summer. He retired, bought a fancy condo on the upper east side and is so thankful he kept his country place...he bails out of NYC every year by July 1. It's much more tolerable in the spring and the fall. Even xmas in the city has its attractions.
700. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:19:55 PM
..er..subway grate...
701. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:20:18 PM
Thoughtful...I know a young upstart investment banker that just "takes a car"...like I ever just take a car...I get stuck with some smooth talking cab driver in a turban and knickers.
702. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:20:57 PM
A new real favorite of mine is the Sucelt coffee shop off 7th and 14th. Since I cant go to Loaisaida (lower east side) very often anymore, I hit this place where for six bucks I get my fill and more of super Puerto Rican grub.
Course, you have to sit at a counter but it's very worth it.
703. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:21:51 PM
Thoughtful...Banks is a VIP, and has minnions that cool his every outdoor move in heat-produced inclement weather.
704. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:22:26 PM
Thoughtful, the city you're talking about passed on some 10+ years ago. NYC is different now.
But yes, you're also right, Christmas in NY is also spectacular.
705. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:23:43 PM
Banks...I have access to boxes at Yankee Stadium along first base...wanna seat sometime?
706. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:23:50 PM
heat per se doesn't bother me. There are 1 million places to go to cool off. And central park in the summer is something to be experienced. It's primarily the park experience that makes NYC the place for me to be in the summers.
707. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:24:45 PM
Yea..well...I'm NOT paying for water anymore.
708. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:25:07 PM
I have access to good seats too, PP. Maybe not as good as yours though.
I'll keep it in mind, thanks for the offer.
Night baseball in the summer in the Bronx, it don't get any better.
709. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:27:00 PM
So, what are the attractions? I've actually enjoyed myself once I'm there....Wall St. is quite a sight to see...buildings and canyons like no other. The statue of liberty paints quite an image and is fun to climb if you've got the quadruceps for it. The world trade center offers a no-place-else-on-earth view of the city. Central park offers a small piece of the bronx zoo and up on the east side, the Metropolitan Museum of art is most fabulous. The west side offers the planetarium and museum of natural histoy. Culture, culture, culture from broadway to off broadway to lincoln center. There are many other famous museums as well..guggenheim, frick, and even something as different as the cloisters, etc. Shopping like no place else on earth, and it's not unusual to be on the street with famous people -- filming episodes -- had lunch in the pierre once "with" dolly parton...that kind of thing. I'll let PP fill you on on the sports aspects. Some of the worlds best restaurants and fun things to do like the NBC studio tour and some beautiful cathedrals to visit. There's lots more, but these things come to mind.
710. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:27:04 PM
Banks...if ya see a 6' 5" geek that looks like me, in CP on roller blades, flag him down.
711. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:28:35 PM
They don't take Mastercharge in St Pat's...just American Express.
712. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:31:29 PM
majori, you lie, you lie. The NYC I speak of is now. Some things haven't changed in 100 years, and probably won't for another 100.
Best sight-seeing tour of NYC...take the circle line around manhattan. Also, there's the south street seaport which can be fun.
713. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:34:10 PM
My kid just takes me everywhere..."hey dad, ya gotta see this"...this Sunday Union Square and Battery Park...maybe see his office...
714. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:35:59 PM
PP, if you are a "frequent flier" to NYC then you can afford to take the time to get to the more obscure parts and doing it with a native is ever so helpful. But if your time/budget is limited, you do want to make sure you hit the high spots.
715. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:36:41 PM
Thoughtful,
I'll give you an idea of what I like to do on virtually every saturday in NYC.
Start in Chinatown early for dim sum (cheap), and gorge for a couple of hours with friends and the newspaper. Then go shopping in the neighborhood, mainly for fish and some greens. Then walk leisurely up through Little Italy (picking up fresh cheeses and maybe some home made ravioli) and then across to walk up through the village to Union Square.
Spend at least an hour picking through the oustanding greenmarket. Stop off at a friends place to dump and refrigerate groceries. Put together a picnic from the day's purchases.
Walk up Sixth Avenue to Central Park. Chill out on the Great Lawn for a while while consuming the picnic. Play some frisbee, idly people watch.
Head to Summerstage. Spend two hours dancing and watching.
Pack up. Say good bye. Head to somewhere else for further festivities or head home.
That is, without exaggeration, what I do on virtually every single Saturday in NYC in the summer.
716. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:37:28 PM
Thoughtful...I get in the car, drive to 42 St., park, and I am all set.
717. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:37:33 PM
Oh yes...if you go to the city, dress nicely...that way you can walk into the downtown hotels like you belong there and use the bathrooms. There are no public bathrooms...that would be considered usable or safe...in NYC and even some restaurants have none....unless you want to use America's bathrooms (otherwise known as McDonalds/Burger King.)
718. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:39:02 PM
Summerstage is free, by the way, and the range and quality of the acts is nothing short of outstanding.
719. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:39:35 PM
hahahaha...Thoughful..do it with a "native"...
720. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:40:48 PM
Majori, as I said, once you're there, you can have some fun. But I have bruises on my butt from trying to get there. A buddy of mine went to the opera at Lincoln center last week and didn't get home til 2 a.m. Grand Central was closed for some reason or other and he ended up trying to wend his way up to 125th street to grab a train. Not fun.
721. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:41:47 PM
That's the problem with NYC. It's always something.
722. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:43:21 PM
It is great place for young people on career startup...and indeed, the financial capitol of the World.
723. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:43:37 PM
Grand Central is "closed" maybe one day out of 1000.
But I do agree about the shamefulness of the lack of public transport from the airports to the city.
Otherwise though, NYC is currently where it's at.
724. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:45:08 PM
From the airports...private car, bus to 42 st, cab...what's the problem.
725. AceofSpades - 4/11/2001 1:45:31 PM
MajorNawab,
Please check Notices & Queries when you have the chance.
726. marjoribanks - 4/11/2001 1:46:00 PM
The museums and galleries alone make this an unbelievable place. And the neighborhoods still exist and are fascinating.
As the rest of America homogenizes into a blur of Starbucks and McDonalds, NYC is still an oasis of interesting diversity. Of course, the effect is felt here as well but overall the homogenization process is taking place at a far slower pace.
Don't get me started on the restaurants, btw. I'm pretending to work.
727. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 1:47:17 PM
Ah...the diversity...it makes me feel alive, so different from my vanilla life.
728. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 1:57:06 PM
Walk a city like Boston or Philly and you walk the history of the place. But NYC, being the commercial center it has always been has not respected its history. (The tavern down by the battery hardly counts.)
Face it. NYC is either a place you love or you hate. Clearly marjori and pp fall into the former camp, while I err to the latter.
729. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 2:02:37 PM
Thoughtful...I love Boston/Cambridge also. Different places than Manhattan,, especially Harvard Square.
730. thoughtful - 4/11/2001 2:19:25 PM
PP, not just Harvard Square, or other parts of Cambridge, but even the commons, the public gardens, the Italian section, back bay, etc. It reeks of history. As does Philly. I also like the fact that people smile in those cities...not in NYC. And I like the fact that you don't have to look directly overhead to see what the weather is, whereas NYC is very high walls with no roof. Must be why I err on walking up Park Ave. over the others.
731. PsychProf - 4/11/2001 2:20:58 PM
Good points and real differences...
732. labwabbit - 4/11/2001 2:42:29 PM
Been to NYC, Boston, Philly, Miami, Chicago, Seattle, and (except for Boston), the only way I would ever go back is kicking, screaming, biting, scratching, or any other extreme methods of resistance. Boston isn't to bad if you fly in and are driven to where you wish to go...then walk around.
Chicago...well....I just wouldn't go again. Might as well shoot me right at the outset. Disgusting place with all the charm of a maggot-infested corpse.
Seattle is the most bizarre place to drive in the world. If the congestion don't get ya...the naming convention of the streets, and layout will...but all-in-all as large cities go, there is much to see and do...particularly in the maritime interests. LA is next with highways designed for 60 mph, but nothing short of 85-90 will get you into a through lane. Endless landscape of what the worst people can do to an environment....(or is that NY?).
Philly actually isn't too bad realtively. It just seemed to me that all roads lead into Philly...but escape was much more difficult. (Perhaps frame of mind may have had much to do with that.)
Miami...well...Miami just sucks. (Unless you are in a penthouse suite with a refrigerated pool).
Noise...non-stop noise is the greatest deterrent for me. I honestly think that mankind's original syndrome of madness came not from things such as eating the fruit from the tree of good and knowledge, or killing to hunt, but from development of cities. The constant hum, and disassociation of thought as a result, is the true reason why people have the propensity to kill each other or do things such as driving 80 miles an hour bumper to bumper in 6 well packed lanes of traffic and not consider statistics of a blow-out or someone out front not being mentally fit to walk never mind drive. (RANT Alert)
Any way...Maine was too crowded...Alaska is not.
733. sakonige - 4/11/2001 3:47:37 PM
Seattle is the most bizarre place to drive in the world. If the congestion don't get ya...the naming convention of the streets, and layout will..
The city planners thought it would be more efficient to give the streets numbers instead of names. The numbered streets continue into the suburbs across major barriers like lakes and run both north-south and east-west, so you accidentally cross a bridge somewhere, you can easily end up at the corner of 116th and 116th in the wrong city with no clue which way to go.
734. altitude /w attitude - 4/11/2001 6:58:50 PM
labwabbit
Maine was too crowded compared to what? Alaska? Certainly not compared to the aforementioned cities.
735. altitude /w attitude - 4/11/2001 7:02:56 PM
JAH
Only got to drive by Spencer State Park on the Island tour. What an incredible place. And it was warm! I'm in love with Hawaii and can't wait to go back. So many islands, so little time. It was an awesome vacation with the teenager who was very happy with her Hawaii sunburn.
Thanks again for your input. It helped me to focus on what I wanted to do there.
736. labwabbit - 4/11/2001 7:07:11 PM
Hey a/wa..
Maine was too crowded for me, too crowded compared to Alaska...illustrates how I feel about cities. There is a good thing about cities that I didn't mention...it holds a lot of the people who might otherwise live next door to me.
How are things with you in the high-country?
737. LimeGirl - 4/11/2001 7:27:18 PM
Seattle is the most bizarre place to drive in the world. If the congestion don't get ya...the naming convention of the streets, and layout will..
I thought that also the original founders of the city couldn't decide on which way to make the streets go, so they each made the streets go the way the wanted to in their own part of the city. Then they had to hook them up.
My biggest problem downtown is finding the freeway again. My mom and I managed to drive from Seattle Center along the freeway, without finding a way to get on, until we were past 520. We finally got home, but it took a while!
738. arkymalarky - 4/11/2001 8:03:39 PM
There is a good thing about cities that I didn't mention...it holds a lot of the people who might otherwise live next door to me.
You sound like Bob.
739. labwabbit - 4/11/2001 8:14:46 PM
Hello LimeGirl
Yep, very similar to my experiences there...and what I attempted to describe about Philly. I was on the "street I was supposed to be on to get to this fabrication company I was trying to get to. I reached the end of the road...at the water's edge...I could see the damn place but just couldn't get thay-ah from he-ah. (*downeast Maine accent). Took me another 1.5 hrs to get what amounted to about 1000 lineal feet from where the road ended....but continued on the other side of the lagoon/bay..whatever the hell it was. Finding my way back to I-5 was another horror story I won't bore you with..heh.
740. labwabbit - 4/11/2001 8:17:11 PM
Arkus
That only means I have good taste too!
741. longshanks - 4/11/2001 11:16:44 PM
Well, I promised about a month ago to report back on Bodega Bay, CA. Better late than never...
Little has changed since the Birds was filmed there in 1963. Still a little out of the way place. Surprisingly, the only thing that even denotes that the movie was filmed there is a little tourist center in the middle of town (in a temporary trailer) that has a notebook of newspaper clippings in the corner toward the back. That's about it.
The Tides Restaurant is still there, though it looks nothing like it did back then. The original drugstore is also there (where Tippi rents the boat to go across the bay in). The gift shop at the Tides had a little corner of Hitchcock memorabilia, apparently for the random few like me who actually go out of their way to come here. (I bought a sufficiently kitschy Birds christmas ornament, among other things.)
The schoolhouse is still intact, now a private home, with a little plaque on the front gate that gives its history. The jungle gym (where the crows and ravens alight, one of the greatest scenes in the movie) is alas gone. Annie Hayworth's house was a facade and long gone. The church nearby is also nearly unchanged, which you can clearly see in the scenes of the schoolhouse. It had a stark simplicity and plainness that was thoroughly authentic and unaffected.
Looking across the bay, you could picture various scenes from the movie -- cars driving madly around the perimeter of the bay, back and forth between houses, suggesting various dramatic situations. There were also quite a few birds, strangely or not so strangely enough.
In all, it was much more bucolic than I imagined. The rolling green California hills that surround the town are quite picturesque. It's a beautiful drive up from San Francisco, consisting of a number of farms and more cows than people. It makes you remember that a large portion of California is quite rural... at least northern California.
742. CalGal - 4/11/2001 11:43:59 PM
Gosh, I'll have to go up there again sometime soon. Did you get to Muir Woods and Stinson Beach?
743. altitude /w attitude - 4/12/2001 10:33:44 AM
labwabbit
I agree, the cities are a good place for a lot of people who might otherwise be my neighbors. My community of 1,000 is comparable to where I lived in Maine. However this is a little closer to a city and seems to harbor a lot less ignorance. imho.
We had about a foot of snow yesterday and the evening before, offering a sharp contrast to balmy Hawaii. I laughed at my frame of reference when we drove into my friend's yard on a 200 foot driveway. I wondered, briefly, who would want to shovel/plow it when it snowed. A practical thought for Colorado and Maine is totally irelevant for Hawaii.
744. labwabbit - 4/12/2001 1:21:18 PM
However this is a little closer to a city and seems to harbor a lot less ignorance. imho.
Haha AwA...
Dis place a'int big enough for the both of us.
745. longshanks - 4/12/2001 4:14:09 PM
Calgal - had been to muir woods previously. alas, didn't make it to Stinson Beach even though everyone I spoke to recommended it! next time...
746. altitude /w attitude - 4/13/2001 6:00:50 PM
labwabbit
As a native Mainiac, I feel that I can speak about backwoods ignorance, including my own!
747. labwabbit - 4/13/2001 6:10:32 PM
awa
Ayy...whaddaya tawkin' abowt?
748. altitude /w attitude - 4/13/2001 8:12:33 PM
Ayuh.
749. Dusty - 4/16/2001 7:56:19 AM
I'm thinking about a trip to Mexico next Easter. We promised a warm weather vacation to my 15 year-old daughter. Her first choice is Aruba. Then I realized I might be going to the Women's Final Four in San Antonio Easter weekend, so I thought it might make sense to head down to Mexico. Cancun is an obvious choice. Frankly, it isn't my first choice, as it looks like a commercial, touristy strip of hotel beaches. However, that is exactly what attracts my teen-age daughter.
Any thoughts?
750. CalGal - 4/16/2001 10:43:51 AM
We were talking about this earlier; I was thinking of going to Baja for vacation this month, but have postponed. I did enough investigation to find Baja a great place, and would recommend it.
Given that you're paying for it, I wouldn't go to a tourist trap--if that's what Cancun is. I'm not all that familiar with Mexico. I've been to Mazatlan and my ex has been to Puerto Vallerta a few times and always enjoys it.
751. Dusty - 4/16/2001 10:52:48 AM
We were on the Baja last year; enjoyed it, but I was looking to minimize travel time. Given that we would be in TX, and then home to MD, I'm leaning towrd East Coast.
I have a friend who spoke highly of PV, but I got the impression it was a spring break kind of place. I'd like to stay away from the places that exist for bar hopping. Plus it is West Coast so I excluded it.
752. CalGal - 4/16/2001 11:02:25 AM
Oh, I see. You want it to be close.
I don't suppose there are any resort towns going the other way? as in, the US southern states, not Mexico.
Otherwise, I suppose the next step would be to see if Cancun is as touristy as all that.
753. Autodaffy - 4/16/2001 3:29:09 PM
Cancun is one modern hotel next to the other. It reminded me of Miami Beach. The water is the bluest, however, that you will see.
About twenty miles south of it off the Yucatan Penninsula is Cozumel, a small island with just one main town and a lot of undeveloped land. Although the cruise boats dock here, it has an older, smaller feel than Cancun. If ruins interest you, Tulum is about thirty miles south on the coast and Chizen Itza (sp?), which is spectacular, is a day trip through undeveloped forest. Yesterday's NYTimes travel section had an article on some inland towns and sights in this area. The ferry hop from Cozumel is to a cost town where you can cheaply rent an old style vw bug. On Cozumel my wife and I stayed at, I think, the Hotel del Sol, which is large, about a mile out of town, across a road from a beach, with a courtyard swimming pool surrounded by restaurants and bars. On the opposite side of the island, if you want to do the loop around the island or spend the day relatively secluded, is a restaurant that will serve you on their beach.
754. thoughtful - 4/16/2001 3:45:29 PM
I always thought of cancun and cozumel as spring break kinds of places too....but then again, I have never been able to figure out when those breaks are....seems every week in feb is winter break and every week in mar is spring break and every week in april is easter break. Teens are everywhere!
755. PsychProf - 4/16/2001 3:50:51 PM
Auto...I have been to that restaurant on the far side of Cozumel...for night life, don the sombrero at Carlos and Charlies...
756. MaxMacks - 4/18/2001 12:07:35 AM
Dusty 749 . saw this thread/discussion for first time tonight.
Odd the subject...as last month I went to
Oaxaca for the first time in my life. It was
a place in Mexico that I have wanted see for
over 20 years. But it's a bit of a trip from where I live and have to go to Mexico City first for connecting flight.
Happened to be there at time that Sub-Commandandte
Marcos was there for beginning of what in Mexican politics was big event , viz that he and followers would wend their way to the Capital and be acknowledged by Pres. Fox.
Oaxaca most interesting . Did not go
to the ocean which is not near, but not too far
from Oaxaca.Now I wanna go back there.
BTW . no college kids . not their kinda of place and it was mid Feb.
757. PelleNilsson - 4/18/2001 3:54:31 AM
We had a marvellous trip. The weather was nice too, which was an added bonus. We departed Bergen at 8 pm on Wednesday and arrived in Kirkenes at 10.30 am yesterday calling at 33 ports en route.
Map.
We passed the Arctic Circle on Saturday morning and reached the northernmost point of the trip (71 degrees North) at noon on Monday. If you were to go due west from that point you would cross Greenland and then hit Alaska about two thirds up Baffin Island. The easternmost point, which we reached early yesterday, is at 31 degrees East. Going due south from there you would pass over St Petersburg, Kiev, Istambul and cross the African coast over Cairo.
I'm off now to get the films developed and hope to post some pics later.
758. Dusty - 4/18/2001 7:50:33 AM
Thanks for the responses to my question about Mexico.
Autodaffy, when I saw the picture of Cancun, I immediately thought of Miami Beach. I thought I mentioned Cozumel, but I see now that I didn't. Cozumel looks more interesting to me, but the writeup sounded more like a place for diving than for the beach. Frankly, I have no use for the beach; 20 minutes a year is my limit, but my daughter wants the beach.
CG, I vaguely thought about checking US cities in the area, but didn't pursue it. Good idea, and I've got the map out now.
Max2
Thanks for your introduction to Oaxaca; I don't know anything about it, but I'll check it out.
Pelle,
Welcome back, and looking forward to those pictures.
759. JudithAtHome - 4/18/2001 8:57:56 AM
Dusty:
My sister always went to Cozumel and she's no diver...she's a beach bum who loves it so much, she moved to Maui for 7 years! So I think beaches would please your kid in Cozumel. My sis loved the ruins there, too...
We have neat beach experiences here in Texas at Padre Island and Galveston...
760. marjoribanks - 4/18/2001 10:50:59 AM
Cancun is a hellhole, a blot on the otherwise inoffensive Yucatan. Avoid it at all costs.
Thanks for the report on Oaxaca. It is #1 on my travel list at the moment, mainly because it is more accessible than the other dream destinations.
Full admission: the biggest reason I want to go to Oaxaca is the Neptuno food stall in the Oaxaca market which has been riased to mythic proportions by one Rick Bayless, my current food guru.
761. MaxMacks - 4/18/2001 3:56:34 PM
marjoibanks.
did not eat at the markets...I was so cautious
re. water etc.
but there were some just outstanding
restaruants in Oaxaca , e.g. salmon and rice
and flan and Mexican wine, etc etc ( which is as good
as any CAlif. or Fr.) , in lovely terrace overlooking the Zocolo ( main square)...
for the cost of a hamburger in certain USA places !!.
What is the Neptuno food stall?
There are several big markets there
we did not go to the SUPER GIANT ONE , name
forgotten.
realized just from looking at how many airplane flights
there are from San FRancisco to Cancun that
Cancun was place to avoid.
762. thoughtful - 4/18/2001 4:02:58 PM
One Mexican restaurant I thoroughly enjoyed was the no-name restaurant in Tlaquepaque near Guadalajara. And Guadalajara, the weather was fine.
763. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2001 4:47:59 AM
Travelling on Hurtigrutten
For a brief description of the itinarary and a map, see Message # 757.
Hurtigrutten (The Fast Line) operates daily departures on the route Bergen-Kirkenes. The round trip takes 11 days so there are eleven ships en route at any given time. We travelled on Kong Harald of Tromsø with 490 berths in 230 cabins. She was built in 1993 in Stralsund, Germany (in the former DDR and also the former Swedish Pomerania). The picture shows her sister ship Nordlys (Northern Light) approaching the quay in Tromsø. The hawser in the foreground secures Kong Harald. The top deck houses various lounges and bars. Our cabin was on the deck below that. 
The trip offered an infinite number of vistas such as this: 
And this 
And more 
And another one 
There were plenty of narrow passages too: 
764. PelleNilsson - 4/19/2001 4:50:48 AM
This is the Cathedral of Nidaros at Trondheim, one of the rather few gothic cathedrals in Scandinavia. It was built to house the relics of St Olav (king Olav II Haraldsson, 995-1030) who introduced Christianity on Norway by offering his people the classical choice between the baptismal font and the sword. 
The Archbishopric at Trondheim from ca 1150. 
To continue on the religious theme, Blood and Fire in Ålesund: 
According to the guide book this rather ugly church from 1846 in Honningsvåg (our northernmost port of call) was the only building left standing when the Germans razed the town prior to their withdrawal in 1944. 
Merchant houses in Harstad: 
But most of the landings were at small, bleak places like this: 
Part of the fishing fleet of Bodø. If you look carefully at the lower right-hand corner you will see that someone is drying their own lutefish. 
An inept rendering of Fritiof Nansen at the Museum of Polar Expeditions in Tromsø. 
Roald Amundsen was more lucky. 
And that's all from me. 
765. Dusty - 4/19/2001 8:01:42 AM
Thanks!!!
Great pics.
766. PsychProf - 4/19/2001 2:19:44 PM
How neat! Thanks Pelle...
767. thoughtful - 4/19/2001 2:22:31 PM
Pelle, how wonderful...no doubt the trip was most enjoyable. Great pics. Thanks!
768. seadate - 4/19/2001 2:28:27 PM
And another thanks for the photos, Pelle!
769. seadate - 4/19/2001 2:41:50 PM
Dusty,
I'd avoid Cancun. I've many friends and aquaintances who frequent Cozumel and love it. If your taking a look at South Texas, I recommend Corpus Christi or Padre Island (north of Corpus, the water isn't as blue due to Mississippi River sediment).
Padre Island runs from Corpus to Mexico with the southernmost Texas towns being Port Isabel, Harlingen, and Brownsville. South Padre island is very popular for those who enjoy the beach. I don't know where you'll be travelling from, but unless you're in driving distance, I'd opt for South Texas for fishing and Mexico (Cozumel and others) for lounging.
770. seadate - 4/19/2001 2:42:49 PM
Dusty,
Does the Carribean interest you at all?
771. PsychProf - 4/19/2001 2:51:47 PM
772. JudithAtHome - 4/19/2001 3:13:32 PM
Pelle:
Thanks for sharing the pictures from your trip...stunning gothic cathedral but I liked the simplicity of the other church, too.
773. Dusty - 4/19/2001 3:33:15 PM
seadate
The Carribean? It isn't high on my list, but this is more to deliver a promise to my daughter. My wife took her to VT this year, and promised a warm weather place with a beach next year. Aruba had been floated as an idea. Then I was planning to send for tickets to San Antonio, realized that it might coincide with her vacation, and thought it might make sense to continue on to some place in the area.
I'll check into your TX suggestions.
774. JudithAtHome - 4/19/2001 3:35:50 PM
Padre Island is the destination, beach wise, of every Texan I know who likes the beach...we have friends who go every three months or so and my son and his friends go every year, whether they need to or not.
775. seadate - 4/19/2001 3:40:29 PM
Dusty,
What Judith said if Texas where yer headed.
776. PsychProf - 4/19/2001 3:42:03 PM
Many students from the college here went to Padre Island during spring break for a week of D & F.
777. JudithAtHome - 4/19/2001 3:42:57 PM
Dancing and Frolicing?
778. PsychProf - 4/19/2001 3:45:05 PM
Iinterpersonal Frolicing...as in Frolic You, PP.
779. seadate - 4/19/2001 3:49:17 PM
For Dusty (in case you haven't found this already)
780. JudithAtHome - 4/19/2001 3:49:50 PM
Ahhhhhhhh......I see.
781. seadate - 4/19/2001 4:00:25 PM
That link doesn't work for me .... Try Again
782. Jenerator - 4/19/2001 4:01:03 PM
[Make sure you go to South Padre Island or you'll be stuck in the wrong part...flat beaches, no waves.]
783. labwabbit - 4/19/2001 4:05:44 PM
Hello weary travelers.
Headin' ta Maine fer a spell. Almost all of May...big stuff to do and many friends to see.
784. Dusty - 4/19/2001 4:05:45 PM
seadate
Thanks, but you got an extra character in your link. You meant:
South Padre Island
785. seadate - 4/19/2001 4:11:02 PM
Got it, Dusty. Disregard what I said about driving from San Antonio. Jen's right about South Padre. Southwest Airlines from San Antone to Harlingen is likely your best bet.
786. Jenerator - 4/19/2001 4:13:51 PM
And whatever you do, don't go to S. Padre Island during spring break unless you are approximately 17-22 years old, like crowds in excess of 1 million, and have a reservation for at least one year in advance.
787. joezan - 4/19/2001 11:03:32 PM
Wonderful photos, Pelle.
When's it stop snowing in Norway - June?
788. Åse - 4/20/2001 12:46:28 AM
Pelle, great pictures.
Makes me homesick. (Good we're going back late next month).
789. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 9:47:01 AM
Max,
Neptuno is a restaurant in the central market of Oaxaca that Rick Bayless talks about a lot in his TV series and book (both named Mexico: One plate at a time). He reveres it for great seafood, especially the ceviche.
Pelle, neat photos. I especially like the unostentatious lines of the merchants houses. very pleasing to the eye.
790. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 9:51:56 AM
Last week, in Rochester NY, I saw two huge graffiti tags by someone called VOID festooned with 'Sorry China' written in a variety of styles.
791. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 10:32:38 AM
The only thing 'good ceviche' depends on is the quality of the fish, with chili being optional.
After all it's just raw fish, cilantro/coriander, lime juice, salt.
792. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 10:33:06 AM
and onions if the ceviche is Peruvian.
793. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:37:47 AM
Honestly, I've only warmed to ceviche in the last couple of years after eating some outstanding portions at NYC restaurant (now defunct) Patria.
I'd imagine it's even better with fish straight out of the ocean.
794. Fielding - 4/20/2001 10:38:18 AM
By "fish", you mean "fish/seafood".
795. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:40:11 AM
Oh, Bayless's 'ceviche clasico' also includes tomatoes, olives and a dash of orange juice. I definitely want to try it when I can lay hands on suitable fish.
796. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 10:41:07 AM
The last time I was in Japan, in March 2000, I was told the best ceviche outside Peru could only be had in Japan. Which can only be exaggeration but the combination of fish passion in Japan and the large Peruvian guest-worker community in the country makes it seem plausible.
797. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:41:16 AM
I don't eat shellfish/crustaceans, so mine will be fish alone. But yes, many ceviches contain both.
798. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 10:43:37 AM
Tomatoes, olives and orange juice???
I don't understand why something so simple and good ought to made so complicated.
It's like people who flavour lamb or mutton with mint. Freshly slaughtered sheep, particularly highland sheep, requires only salt and its own fat as it grills.
799. Fielding - 4/20/2001 10:43:49 AM
Bobby Flay and Douglas Rodriguez both have interesting treatments of ceviche. They may not be as authentic as PE's recipe above, but if they taste good (better actually), who's going to complain?
Ceviche is a dish that is easy to make at home and one that you can dazzle your friends with, provided that your fish is pristine.
800. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:44:36 AM
The thing is, again, the quality and freshness of the fish. I'd imagine Japan is pretty much the most monomaniacal nation when it comes to obsessiveness about fish freshness and quality so I don't doubt that ceviches in Japan are great.
Not too conincidentally, I've also finally come around to consuming large quantities of sushi. For years, I'd restrict myself to rolls in Japanese restaurants. But now I gobble it all, even stuff I swore I'd never go near for years, like eel.
801. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 10:44:56 AM
"I don't eat shellfish/crustaceans....
How Indo-Muslim of you.
802. Fielding - 4/20/2001 10:45:01 AM
In Cozumel, ceviche is made out of conch.
803. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:46:15 AM
Well, Bayless claims (and his credentials are spotless) that this is how Mexicans eat ceviche most of the time. In general, it seems that tomatoes are added to pretty much everything in Mexican food.
BTW, Rodriguez was the chef at Patria.
804. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:48:05 AM
Indo-Muslim?
Everyone in my family guzzles shellfish and crustaceans. We are Goan, you know. My shunning of the stuff is treated as some kind of abhorrent affliction.
My reluctance has to do with aesthetics, more than anything. And some core knowledge of what the little buggers are.
805. Fielding - 4/20/2001 10:48:15 AM
Banks:
BTW, fresh uni (sea urchin roe) is my favorite food in the whole world. I prefer it served on a razor thin slice of lemon. You eat the uni and lemon in one bite. Then you write a sonnet. :)
806. janjon - 4/20/2001 10:48:22 AM
Patria is defunct? Lord. When?
Actually, the more I think about it, I find myself thinking so what. It was novel when it started but over time much of its menu just seemed a bit bizarre and "trendy" and not terribly well put together.
However, their ceviche was indeed always good.
807. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:50:47 AM
Janjon, hey.
Patria is defunct (or at least it was, last I checked) because Rodriguez left to serve shoppers at ABC carpet, of all things.
808. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:51:54 AM
I've tried uni. It's not bad, but i'm not a big fan of the texture.
For me, and I may be unusual, texture is a big part of the attraction of good sushi.
809. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 10:52:50 AM
Japanese mania for fish is curious: the Japanese eat fish either simply (i.e., raw or salted & grilled), or in an extremely processed state, more processed than you can imagine. Japanese typically dine with a dozen small condiment-like dishes at a time. And there are hundreds of staple processed fish products. But by 'processed' I don't mean industrially processed. An example is what I can only call the Japanese fish 'hot dog', i.e., kamaboko. This and its variants like satsuma age are ubiquitous. They're essentially fish cakes, made from various parts of fish such as fins, heads, etc. (but that fact is not apparent to the eye!) A non-Japanese wouldn't even know it's made from fish.
Bobby Flay and Douglas Rodriguez both have interesting treatments of ceviche. They may not be as authentic as PE's recipe above, but if they taste good (better actually), who's going to complain?
It's not authenticity, but simplicity. Certain things require simple preparations.
810. seadate - 4/20/2001 10:55:24 AM
If you are a ceviche lover, I suggest getting to know a commercial fisherman.
811. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 10:57:47 AM
Uni is just sea urchin, not sea urchin roe.
812. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:58:24 AM
I've been eyeing some fish-cake like preparations in the Japanese section of the monumental International supermarket near me. Haven't yet tried any, though, even as I've sampled at least two-dozen snack offerings.
What's interesting to me is how very many Japanese prepared foods use curry powder.
813. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 10:59:54 AM
One of my favorites (I have a bag near me right now) features honey, seaweed AND horseradish. Quite yummy.
814. Fielding - 4/20/2001 11:00:38 AM
"It's not authenticity, but simplicity. Certain things require simple preparations."
You could just as easily turn your nose up at the lime juice, cilantro and salt.
815. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:00:41 AM
Well, Bayless claims (and his credentials are spotless) that this is how Mexicans eat ceviche most of the time. In general, it seems that tomatoes are added to pretty much everything in Mexican food.
The Greeks and the Turks eat roasted goat testicles with yoghurt covered on it. Azeris and Georgians eat them just salted. Both are 'authentic' ways. But the latter is much better.
816. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:02:49 AM
You could just as easily turn your nose up at the lime juice, cilantro and salt.
No, because most variants of ceviche use these or similar. It's unnecessary to add tomatoes (!!!), olives (!!!) and orange juice (!!!)
Orange juice and olives????
817. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:04:08 AM
Well, I'm not particularly concerned about authenticity. In the case of goat testicles, as far as I'm concerned they can be authentically appreciated far better on a live goat.
But I am working through Bayless's repertoire quite fastidiously. First one has to try it out the way it's supposed to be done (as per his recommendations). Then, riffs can and will be invented.
818. Wombat - 4/20/2001 11:04:38 AM
Salty and sweet. How Sicilian.
819. Fielding - 4/20/2001 11:05:38 AM
PE:
"Uni is just sea urchin, not sea urchin roe."
You are mistaken. Uni is much too soft to be the flesh of a shellfish.
Here is an internet link:
uni defined
820. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:05:44 AM
"What's interesting to me is how very many Japanese prepared foods use curry powder."
I've only known 'Japanese curry', such as it is, to be found:
(1) by itself
(2) as filling in a fried bread pocket (karei pan -- awful)
(3) over fried noodles ('karei yakisoba')
(4) and a few snacks
821. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:07:19 AM
Well, I don't eat uni so I can't say what it is exactly, but the word uni means 'sea urchin' and nothing more than 'sea urchin'.
822. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:08:27 AM
"Well, I'm not particularly concerned about authenticity."
But that's my point. Authenticity should take second place to simplicity if the latter means better taste.
823. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:09:51 AM
Plus the tomatoes of Yankistan are tasteless anyway so why add tasteless lumps of bulk to ceviche particularly if the fish is fresh and good.
824. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:10:37 AM
Curry is in a whole punch of patties available at the aforementioned supermarket. And the snacks, of course.
Speaking of the snacks, my current favorite is some kind of reconstituted peas (in the shape of pods) with bonito extract and some other things. It's inexplicably labelled 'Japanese health food'. very good stuff, always serve it to guests with drinks.
825. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:12:29 AM
Ah, but I get good tomatoes. They actually smell (and taste) like tomatoes.
Believe me, it was quite a shock to me when I found them. I hadn't actually seen a tomato which smelled like a tomato in some years in this country.
826. Fielding - 4/20/2001 11:16:38 AM
You can get good tomatoes in the US. You can get almost anything in the US.
I agree, however, that most American supermarket tomatoes are cottony.
827. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:16:52 AM
Those peas you like have the rather generic name of 'shio mame' (or salted peas).
There are literally thousands and thousands of snacks based on peas, beans, bean paste, rice, etc.
828. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:20:25 AM
Well, they're labelled in English and Japanese and the English reads 'Saya snow pea crisps'.
They're baked. Perhaps that's why they qualify as "health food".
829. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:22:13 AM
How incredibly strange. I found them on the web.
830. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:22:42 AM
You can get almost anything in the US.
Only if you spent more than ordinary amounts of time & money looking for it.
Tomatoes, almost all fruits, pork, lamb, and especially chicken are tasteless in Yankistan. Beef is good , but Japanese matsuzaka is far better.
Chicken is especially terrible in Yankistan. It's amazing how in a country with tastless chicken, the preferred chicken part is the least tasty part, the breast, which is made further tasteless by the habitual removal of the skin.
831. janjon - 4/20/2001 11:23:58 AM
"vine ripened" tomatoes are now ubiquitous in NYC (even at the supermarkets) and, if far from perfect, are certainly preferable to the pinkish cardboard tasting missiles that not too long ago were the only things available much of the year.
Can't say that I've done a deliberate analysis, but the ones from Holland taste a lot better than the ones from Israel. Both look about a like (and are a "healthy" red), but the ones from Israel aren't as acidic and have a slightly flabby texture.
832. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:24:12 AM
Oh, well, what you've got in #829 is not what I was thinking of at all.
I was thinking of essentially loose, dried, roasted green peas which are then salted.
I've never seen the alien pod bags that you've grown fond of.
833. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:27:38 AM
My favourite Japanese desert/snack are these little cakes made entirely from chestnuts. Ground chestnut flour, chestnut puree filling, thin filaments of chestnut paste icing coiled over the top like a spaghetti turban. Fantastic.
834. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:31:40 AM
Pseuder,
You can get all kinds of decent chicken in NYC at least. Organic, free-range, the works, and not terribly expensive either. Far far better than the usual stuff.
BTW, you should know that the chicken lobby in the USA has protested and even sued the Indian gov't to let them enter and sell chicken legs there. See, the US market eats maily the breast, and the Indian market prizes the legs much more. Perdue wants to flood the Indian market with cheap legs and the Indian producers have kept them out. Soon, however, thanks to the WTO, Indians will be muching on Perdue tangdi kebabs.
835. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:34:50 AM
What's the name of those chesnut things? Do they come pre-packaged? I'll get them in my evening trawl through Worldmart food International.
BTW, you don't have to try at all to get superior products in the USA if you happen to live near a superior supermarket. Yes, I live near NYC. But such supermarkets are in many parts of the country.
In fact, the best supermarket I've ever been to in the USA is in Pittsford, NY, outside Rochester. The Wegmans there is an absolute delight to shop in.
836. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:37:34 AM
BTW, you should know that the chicken lobby in the USA has protested and even sued the Indian gov't to let them enter and sell chicken legs there. See, the US market eats maily the breast, and the Indian market prizes the legs much more. Perdue wants to flood the Indian market with cheap legs and the Indian producers have kept them out. Soon, however, thanks to the WTO, Indians will be muching on Perdue tangdi kebabs.
Ah, I know about this in other contexts. Because of the surplus of unconsumed chicken parts in Yankistan, American fowl manufacturers want to export them to other countries. You can already find frozen chicken drumsticks, wings, etc. in Central Asia. But last year several CIS countries were debating whether to ban these items for health reasons.
837. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:40:45 AM
One of the more novel defenses mounted by the Indian producers was that the onslaught of American chicken will drive the indigenous Indian fowl into extinction.
Frankly, I think Perdue will make a killing for like six months, then everyone will tire of substandard chicken and go back to buying their birds from Venky's and the other local producers.
838. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:41:39 AM
There are many chestnut-based cakes, but the two whose names I can think of immediately are monburan and maron cake.
839. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:42:54 AM
'maron', how odd. A loanword from French?
840. janjon - 4/20/2001 11:46:08 AM
What with sophisticated and quick shipping techniques now well established, it indeed is easy in many areas of this country and relatively easy in others to get high quality and fresh perishibles, such as chicken, fruits and vegetables.
Based on my limited and empirical perspective, I would say that the average supermarket here is far superior in terms of freshness, quality etc. of perishibles than, say, one in the UK. And, in many respects, comparable to a supermarche in France. (not when it comes to cheese selections or quality, however.)
841. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:47:52 AM
My favourite non-sweet Japanese snack is boiled edamame. You get fresh green soyeans (the kind with the slightly 'hairy' pods) and boil them in salty water. Then take the pods and pop the contents into your mouth.
842. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:48:53 AM
Average supermarket, maybe. But the giant Tesco and Sainsbury's outlets in the UK are comparable to the best in the US. And superior in the selections available in the butcher, fish, cheese, bread, and wine and beer sections.
843. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:49:59 AM
Dude, I LOVE edamame. I have a bag in the freezer right now. Also available handily at my local supermarket.
844. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:50:54 AM
Message # 839
Yes. maron is from the French marron.
You can also eat a Japanese pseudo-eclair called ekuleru, a pseudo-cream-puff called 'shoo kreemu, and a pseudo-baumkuchen called bawumkoohen
845. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:52:11 AM
The frozen edamame are markedly inferior to getting fresh ones and boiling them yourself.
846. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:53:40 AM
Ha. reminds me very slightly of the rather hilarious (semi-racist) SNL skit featuring a Japanese Laverne and Shirley.
Pseuder, have you ever watched Iron Chef?
847. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:54:11 AM
I agree about Saintsbury's. But the food supply situation in the UK is not much different from Yankistan, so that's not saying much.
848. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 11:56:12 AM
Yes, the fresh is superior to the frozen. But the frozen variety is oh so convenient.
I've noticed an edamame boom in the US. Both the Japanese restaurants I go to most give you a bowlful the moment you sit down.
849. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:57:33 AM
I am amazed all this Japanese stuff is so easily available that you would be familiar with such arcane things like boiled salted edamame!
850. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 11:59:43 AM
I still prefer Hindi-Paki sweets to any Japanese desert, though. In fact, I think the only exception to the rule that the best desserts are of Western European origin is the Paki-Hindi stuff.
851. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:00:07 PM
"Tomatoes, almost all fruits, pork, lamb, and especially chicken are tasteless in Yankistan. Beef is good , but Japanese matsuzaka is far better."
When were you last in the US? Most of the things you describe are both tastier and cheaper in the US than most of the rest of the world.
852. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:01:40 PM
"My favourite non-sweet Japanese snack is boiled edamame. You get fresh green soyeans (the kind with the slightly 'hairy' pods) and boil them in salty water. Then take the pods and pop the contents into your mouth."
Edomame is so ubiquitous in the US (at least in NYC) that you see school children packing it in their lunch boxes.
853. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:02:47 PM
"I am amazed all this Japanese stuff is so easily available that you would be familiar with such arcane things like boiled salted edamame!"
You would be very surprised.
854. janjon - 4/20/2001 12:03:37 PM
I sense a food fight in the making.
855. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:03:46 PM
Edamame is not arcane at all.
Things Japanese, especially food, are far from unusual or out of the ordinary in this area. There are scores and scores of expat families in the complex I live in, many on year contracts. I cannot go near the steam room in my gym without bumping into several naked Japanese salarymen. The supermarket here has a Japanese section as big as many whole NYC supermarkets. It even has its own sushi chef! One minute from my door is an outstanding Japanese restaurant.
856. janjon - 4/20/2001 12:04:54 PM
edamame hardly qualifies as being esoteric these days. Bowls of it were served even in the Japanese restaurant in the 'burbs we frequented before returning to Valhalla.
857. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:07:20 PM
If we get started on the joys of subcontinental mithai, I'll go on for hours.
I love it all, the burfis, the kathlis, the gulab-jamuns, the rasmalais, the jelebis, the kulfis, the pedas. All of it. In fact, the only desserts I'm not that crazy about are the Goan ones which are heavily influenced by S.E. Asia.
858. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:07:44 PM
When were you last in the US?
Now.
Most of the things you describe are both tastier and cheaper in the US than most of the rest of the world.
Rubbish! Absolute nonsense! You just don't know what you're talking about. Dirt bag villages in Vietnam or Kyrgyzstan have better, fresher and tastier produce than 99% of the supermarkets in Yankistan.
The amount of Americanist illusion you harbour is really amazing. Better and cheaper? Food in Yankistan is cheaper than in Western Europe and Japan, but certainly not cheaper than anywhere else. Tastier? Food in Yankistan except at the best restaurants in New York rank among the worst in the world.
Don't compare food in the rest of the world with some yuppie organic market stuffed with produce from small family farms in Connecticut or Virginia. Compare the produce one can get ordinary and primary sources of supply for most people. Yankistan ranks very low.
In Yankistan, you can say food is plentiful and cheap. That's about it.
859. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:09:24 PM
Jesus, you can't even get cheeses made from unpasteurised milk in Yankistan except on a samizdat basis.
860. janjon - 4/20/2001 12:10:06 PM
I didn't realize that Pseudo had traveled extensively in the U.S., let alone shopped for groceries not only here but there and there and there.
861. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:13:24 PM
The American Thanksgiving meal -- the haphazard collocation of tasteless globs of glutinous starches and parched fowl lumps, featuring one of the least tasty fowls in the world, which the Yankistanis have made even more tasteless by mass producing on industrial farms.
And don't say "my Thanksgiving meals are amazing". New York yuppies who utter boooongiorrrrrno at the slighest pretext don't count.
862. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:17:24 PM
I didn't realize that Pseudo had traveled extensively in the U.S., let alone shopped for groceries not only here but there and there and there.
Well, I have been in Yankistan since 1996 -- albeit with a few absences of couple of months' of duration for travelling. I was also in Yankistan between 1986-90.
As for groceries "there and there and there", I don't know what you do when you travel, but it's probably museum- and monument-hopping primarily. I do that too but I prefer going to markets and the like. Where ordinary people go shopping for food is more revealing about a country than museums and monuments. And that could mean supermarkets.
863. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:18:37 PM
Excellent canned rant, Pseuder.
Much as I hate to take away from it, I must say that if you do have the inkling that you want something different from the mass-produced supermarket fodder, it is surprisingly easy to get it almost anywhere in this country now. The fact is that eating habits and the food supply have changed fairly significantly in the last decade. Its inarguable.
But I do not disagree with much of what you say. I've been to places even close to NYC where getting a decent chicken or a decent tomato means getting into your car and driving for an hour.
Also, characterizing decent produce outlets as "yuppie" is ridiculous. Immigrants look for decent produce too, even poor immigrants. In fact, the best place to buy fish or vegetables is often an immigrant market, not a Chelsea organic boutique.
864. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:20:00 PM
PE:
Well I haven't been to the dirt bag villages in Kyrgyzstan, so maybe I am not sufficiently travelled to have this conversation with you. I have, however, been to about 25 countries (mostly wealthy countries), and based on what I've seen, you can't get a simple orange anywhere that is nearly as good as in the US, for anywhere near the price. And you can forget about getting lots of things abroad that people consider unremarkable in the US, like ice.
Admittedly, my taste is pretty highbrow, and I can't really compare the diet of a poverty level American with that of a poverty level Vietnamese. But I can assure you that for someone at the poverty level, "plentiful and cheap" is more important than whether the lamb needs mint.
865. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:22:29 PM
I think #863 is some kind of New-York-centrism. Sure it's nice if you have all those immigrant communities & ghettos as you have in New York and environs, but elsewhere it's shit. And doesn't the second paragraph contradict the first one?
866. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:23:50 PM
"like ice"?
Absurd. Also, the pairing of the pedestrian American fetish for crushed ice to chew with the word "highbrow" is rather revealing.
867. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:26:29 PM
PE:
"Jesus, you can't even get cheeses made from unpasteurised milk in Yankistan except on a samizdat basis."
You can't get mad cow disease either.
You can get a better selection of cheese 50 paces from my dwelling than you can in the vast majority of cheese markets in the world. It may cost you, but there are few places outside of the US that offer cheeses from all over the world rather than the merely nearby region. The restrictions on unpasteurized cheeses are indeed a bummer.
The US has developed an artisanal cheese industry in the last ten years that is starting to rival those of UK, France, Italy and Spain. The US is not there yet, but will be in a matter of years.
I'm sure those dirt bag villages you were talking about have a great cheese selection.
868. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:26:38 PM
They're not contradictory. Surprising ease to most Americans means that they can get something within a comfortable drive.
And it's not NY-centrism at all, though I admit that my experience is largely restricted to cities and wealthy suburbs.
869. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:27:13 PM
Message # 864
But I can assure you that for someone at the poverty level, "plentiful and cheap" is more important than whether the lamb needs mint.
If some leftie git had been babbling about the quality of food in Yankistan as an indictment of its mass capitalist system, I would say the same thing.
But we're not having a socioeconomic discussion. We're having a spoilt-snob discussion.
I have, however, been to about 25 countries (mostly wealthy countries), and based on what I've seen, you can't get a simple orange anywhere that is nearly as good as in the US, for anywhere near the price.
Well, as I've said, food in general is very expensive in Western Europe and Japan. In Japan you can $10 for a mango, and it's not even good. But indigenous fruits like oranges, water melons, etc., they are not terribly expensive and certainly better-tasting than in Yankistan.
And you can forget about getting lots of things abroad that people consider unremarkable in the US, like ice.
This must be the staple of the American stereotype about Western Europe. You can get ice if you ask for it in most places, unless you're in the Orkney Islands. Besides, it's a cultural difference.
870. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:29:52 PM
"I think #863 is some kind of New-York-centrism. Sure it's nice if you have all those immigrant communities & ghettos as you have in New York and environs, but elsewhere it's shit. And doesn't the second paragraph contradict the first one?"
In terms of food availability, NYC is indeed the best place in the US, but the rest of the country is catching up fast. NYC also lags the southwest significantly in terms of Mexican and pan-Latin cuisines.
PE, it sounds like you are stuck in some college town in Iowa.
871. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:33:23 PM
NYC is also subpar (compared to London, say) in terms of decent reasonably priced Middle Eastern food and, surprisingly, Indian/Pakistani.
872. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:33:54 PM
Message # 867
"Jesus, you can't even get cheeses made from unpasteurised milk in Yankistan except on a samizdat basis."
You can't get mad cow disease either.
Idiotic. You can't prevent BSE through pasteurisation. So if Yankistan has no BSE, it has got nothing to do with its ludicrous bubble-hygiene food policies.
You can get a better selection of cheese 50 paces from my dwelling than you can in the vast majority of cheese markets in the world.....
I'm sure those dirt bag villages you were talking about have a great cheese selection.
You are prone to dumb comparisons. You have to compare countries which eat cheese with countries which eat cheese. There's no point in comparing cheese availability in Vietnam with that in Yankistan.
As such, almost everywhere in Western Europe, even the UK, is far far superior in cheese to Yankistan.
Dairy products like yoghurt are inedible in Yankistan. Butter? Two tasteless brands at the supermarket, the rest of the 850 brands are ersatz materials.
The US has developed an artisanal cheese industry in the last ten years that is starting to rival those of UK, France, Italy and Spain.
As I said, esoterica oughtn't count.
873. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:37:40 PM
What about bread? There are aislefuls of inedible "bread" at virtually every supermarket in the USA.
I find the lack of a decent loaf to slice and toast one of the most offensive things about the majority of the US.
874. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:41:04 PM
Exactly! Bread. There is no bread in Yankistan unless yo go to some 'gourmet store'.
Despite the ubiquity of 'croissants' in the USA, I have never ever tasted a good one. whenever I see a promising specimen, I buy it and then throw it aaway after the first bite.
Also, despite the equally ubiquitous proliferation of 'Italian' restaurants, a simple dish, an absolutely basic item on the standard Italian menu, is botched each and every time no matter the price you pay for it -- spaghetti carbonara.
Carbonara is basically a dry dish. But in Yankistan, the people including the high-end restaurants apparently believe it's fettucine alfredo with ham.
875. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:41:59 PM
or rather a plate of goo with pasta in it.
876. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:42:53 PM
I'd like acknowledgment that I, marjoribanks, pointed this out (to your enthusiastic approval) lo these many years ago.
877. ElliottRW - 4/20/2001 12:43:22 PM
Objectively speaking, how different are the cheeses of which you speak? Does pasteurization change the nutritional content of cheese? Obviously, subjective differences are more important, but I am curious.
878. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:44:31 PM
The spaghetti carbonara is an acid test for me. I can honestly say that no American restaurant has ever passed.
879. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:44:40 PM
Instead of having a basic dish like spaghetti carbonara, Yanko-Italian restaurants serve complicated nonsense like 'oven-roasted Canadian antelope filet stuffed with gorgonzola, walnuts and pancetta, over a bed of caramelised Ligurian spinach'.
880. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:47:15 PM
I'm ruminating posting a rant about what passes for Chinese food at 99% of US restaurants as well. Horrible, horrible, horrible.
881. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 12:47:51 PM
Message # 877: essentially, flavour is killed, or at least made blander than it is. The question of pasteurse or not pasteurise only applies to certain cheese, not all cheese.
882. janjon - 4/20/2001 12:51:54 PM
Pseudo. Eaten in any of the "chic" London restaurants lately? Same type of dart board insanity when it comes to all the diverse stuff that one now gets on his plate if he isn't asiduously careful.
Paris, too, but usually with a lot more thinking and pleasing results.
883. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:51:58 PM
Pasteurization affects how a cheese ages. With many cheeses, the aging process is vital to its texture and flavour. For instance, a true camembert is best eaten when oozing and easily spreadable.
Pasteurization ensures that it never gets to that point. hence, in this country, the Camembert available has to be eaten in vastly inferior and less flavorful chunks.
884. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:54:55 PM
I don't have a problem with experimentation or multi-cusine improvisation as long as there is a plan. For instance, the River Cafe in London always seems to manage to pull it off with its creations. Tabla, in NYC, similarly often misses. Cutesiness kills, when it comes to food.
885. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:55:37 PM
PE:
My point was that the US's ludicrous (in my view) policies on the importation of food have at least been successful in keeping out some bad things like mad cow disease. (I should note that hillbillies seem to be getting a variant of mad cow by eating squirrel brains).
Yes, its hard (but not at all impossible) to get yogurt in the US of the same quality as in Turkestan. And its hard (but not impossible) to get rambutans in the US. But in the US (especially in NYC), you can get artisanal cheeses from the world over, home made yogurt, rambutans, and high quality american foods. Those options are simply not available any place else.
886. ElliottRW - 4/20/2001 12:56:46 PM
881 -- Thanks for the info. Perhaps I had small samples of cheese made from unpasteurized milk when I visited Mexico, but I really don't know. I have relatives in Mexico who I'm sure would be willing to mail me cheeses if they would pass customs unmolested.
887. janjon - 4/20/2001 12:57:25 PM
Reasonable people do differ. River Cafe in London was one of the ones I was thinking about. Maybe I just haven't ordered carefully.
888. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:58:05 PM
PE:
"But we're not having a socioeconomic discussion. We're having a spoilt-snob discussion."
You're dead in the spoilt-snob argument, because you can buy anything in the US. Your only argument is that the US "peasants" don't eat well, and here you have to factor in price and availability.
889. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 12:59:11 PM
I don't know about the yoghurt. I don't eat the stuff plain, but everyone around me does and they're either reduced to making it themselves or not eating it all unless they're visiting Europe.
My wife's #1 requested item from anyone coming over from England is always a few containers of Mueller yoghurts.
BTW, in talking about the subpar breads and cheeses I for forgot my own pet peeve. US chocolate. It sucks. It's not worthy of the name. And fuck Ghirardelli. It's not much better than Hershey's crap.
890. Fielding - 4/20/2001 12:59:46 PM
"Exactly! Bread. There is no bread in Yankistan unless yo go to some 'gourmet store'."
This is true, although things have gotten much better in New York.
The bread in UK sucks even more than in the US, and they always serve it with a half inch of butter attached.
891. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:01:40 PM
Janjon,
I've eaten there maybe six times and each time really enjoyed the meal. It's a fine example (to me) of a successful walking of that multi-cuisine highwire.
But I can imagine that it is not always fully successful.
892. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:01:49 PM
Message # 888: My point is that if you want to obtain edible food at modest prices and in convenient ways, Yankistan is not the country. In fact it ranks very low in the world.
893. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:02:01 PM
Slightly different point. As for "luxury" restaurants, I really think you get far less quality or value for money spent in the top London restaurants than anywhere else I am familiar with (namely, when it comes to such places, Paris, New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles.) Chez Nico before it moved to Park Lane was an exciting place. Same with La Tante Claire before it went way upscale. Now, just pompous and tedious and horribly expensive. At least in New York, you go away from the top tier places thinking that you might have gotten your $$$$ worth, if you are an easy rationalizer. Not in London. $700 for two is hard to swallow under any circumstances, but then to leave without one memorable or exciting dish. Ecchh.
894. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:02:41 PM
US processed chocolate does indeed suck. Which is why foreign chocolate is flooding american stores.
The best unprocessed chocolate in the world is harvested in Hawaii.
895. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 1:03:13 PM
But the giant Tesco and Sainsbury's outlets in the UK are comparable to the best in the US. And superior in the selections available in the butcher, fish, cheese, bread, and wine and beer sections.
You've got to be kidding? That's like comparing Target with Nordstroms. Tesco is known for it's cheapness and standard selection of English groceries. Sainsbury's is somewhat better, but the only really nice ones are found in London or super-malls. Marks & Spencers was much more selective and offered a much better variety, and if you were to compare the nice Marks & Spencers with a US chain, it would be a tie between Whole Foods and the rich area Tom Thumbs. Which, by the way, usually offer hard to get prepared foods and have sushi chefs. In fact, at the Tom Thumb in N. Dallas, you shop on checkered marble tile and listen to a pianist who plays on a custom Steinway. Some of the cheaper grocery chains offer the best Hispanic foods (SuperOne, etc.)
PE,
I would think that most people who enjoy salted goat testicles don't appreciate a good Thanksgiving meal. Aside from not understanding or relating to the actual holiday or tradition, you probably cannot appreciate turkey meat or any other truly "American" dish. Which, I am sorry to say, can be a great loss.
896. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:03:37 PM
!!! If Yankistan is being criticised, a comparison with the UK is not an adequate defence. Many of the same criticisms (not all) apply to Anglostan as to Yankistan.
897. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:04:28 PM
Fielding,
I believe you don't know what you're talking about. Any supermarket in the UK will yield to you an excellent toasting hearty toasting loaf that you can take home and slice as you wish. The quality is vastly superior, incomparably so, to 99% of the bread available in US supermarkets.
898. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:04:41 PM
janjon:
I just got back from London, and I have to say that its restaurants have improved dramatically. Things are much, much better than they were even five years ago.
899. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:04:50 PM
marjori - have you tried the cookbook put out by the owners/chefs (?) of River Cafe? Something "R"/Gray. I borrowed a friend's and found it filled with too many creamy, buttery concoctions. For my current palate and taste, at least.
900. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:06:04 PM
Fielding. Oh, I agree with you completely. It really is quite easy to eat well in London these days. My little rant was just about the "top tier" ones.
(I too just got back from London. Second trip in the last couple of months.)
901. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 1:06:12 PM
[Fielding I agree with you except for when it comes to bananas. The best ones I've ever had were in South Africa and they were approx. the same price as here...6 rand per pound.)
902. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:06:41 PM
Who gives a shit about shopping on marble floors and listening to a Steinway?
903. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:08:47 PM
Janjon, no I haven't seen that book. But I'm considering buying a couple of the 'Naked Chef' books from Amazon UK because (1) my wife loves Jamie Oliver and (2) I actually do like his no-nonsense approach as demonstrated on his show. I mention this because he's one of the chefs at the RC.
904. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:10:30 PM
Jenerator,
"Traditional American cuisine" is almost as bad as traditional English food, and worse than the adulterated culinary imports that have replaced the traditional foodstuffs.
I would think that most people who enjoy salted goat testicles don't appreciate a good Thanksgiving meal.
That's because even goat testicles, unflavoured in any way except salted, have more flavour and taste than a traditional "Thanksigiving meal".
Aside from not understanding or relating to the actual holiday or tradition....
Oh please. For most Yankistanis it's just another sale day at the department store, particularly for a Bloomingdale's junkie like you.
....you probably cannot appreciate turkey meat or any other truly "American" dish.
I like maize dishes, including what you call "corn bread", except the American-made specimens.
But I must admit I once had something called "cheddar biscuits" which were very good, unlike the ordinary sort of biscuit which is simply warfare through constipation.
905. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:10:34 PM
I'll tell you one way that the UK, even in the country, is far better than the US. Butcher shops, really good butcher shops. Of course, with BSE and all the point is moot.
906. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:11:35 PM
Banks:
"I believe you don't know what you're talking about. Any supermarket in the UK will yield to you an excellent toasting hearty toasting loaf that you can take home and slice as you wish. The quality is vastly superior, incomparably so, to 99% of the bread available in US supermarkets."
I only know what I observed. I did not conduct a servey of supermarket breads while in the UK. It could very well be that the bread sold in UK supermarkets is manna from heaven.
The bread served in british restaurants (other than naan) was GROSSLY INFERIOR to that served in even modest New York restarants. I already agreed with your point that most American supermarkets have terrible bread. (Again, NYC is getting much better in this regard).
907. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:12:25 PM
a custom Steinway, no less.
Probably means it is 30 feet long, considering the locale.
marj - I don't really know much about the Naked Chef except for an interview/article about him one day relatively recently in the Times. His attitude about cooking as expressed in the article (and in the recipe which accompanied it) sounded refreshing.
How goes you regarding Mario Batali?
908. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:13:07 PM
I like American pies. Whenever I'm driving in out-of-the-way places, which is rare, I head for any sign which advertises homemade pies.
I also like Yank breakfasts in general, with the whole eggs/waffles/muffins bit.
And soul food can be great. Ribs, fried chicken, rice and peas.
909. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:13:14 PM
Does Yankistan even have butcher shops? I don't mean the meat department at chic 'gourmet stores'. I mean butcher shops.
910. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:14:15 PM
I like the American pumpkin pie also.
911. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:14:20 PM
pseudo. This goes way back, but actually I do try to spend a lot of time in markets when I travel. Not always easy on the business jaunts, of course.
912. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:15:41 PM
I simply loved Jenerator's testament that she gives thanks for her Bloomindale shopping jaunts on Thanksgiving.
913. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:16:13 PM
I'm into Batali's enthusiastic cooking show. But he's shamelessly over the top with the pork and fat. Both I like in moderation, but in every dish it's a bit much. I've never eaten at his restaurant, though.
914. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:16:16 PM
"I'll tell you one way that the UK, even in the country, is far better than the US. Butcher shops, really good butcher shops. Of course, with BSE and all the point is moot. "
Yes, but French butchers and bread stores put their British counterparts to shame.
915. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:17:05 PM
yes, America does have butcher shops. At least in and around the major metropolitan areas. Good fish stores too.
And, certainly in New York and other major Eastern seaboard cities, you can find "live" poultry shops where you can buy the whole range of chickens, pheasants, pigeons, etc., and wait while the things are killed, gutted and plucked.
916. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:18:28 PM
Ethnic neighborhoods have butcher shops. I buy much of meat halal on Newark Avenue in Jersey City. very good. They make this chicken mince already juiced with chili and spices that's phenomenal. Shape it and cook and in 10 minutes you've got super chicken kebabs.
917. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:19:25 PM
You really should try the Batali restaurants. Actually, the one I continue to like the best is one where he no longer is a partner etc. (Po). Babbo is becoming a bit too too, in my opinion. Lupa is interesting but you do indeed have to order carefully if you want to avoid organ meats, etc. Esca, on the other hand, is terrific.
I don't know how much time Mario spends in any of them these days.
918. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:19:35 PM
"Does Yankistan even have butcher shops? I don't mean the meat department at chic 'gourmet stores'. I mean butcher shops."
You display an ignorance of America here, damaging the credibility of your your previous rants. You've got to get out of Ann Arbor, or wherever it is they've got you holed up.
919. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:19:51 PM
I once bought a freshly made pumpkin pie from an Afghan Uzbek (pumpkin is the Afghan-Uzek national vegetable) in Virginia. He grew the pumpkins himself, but the extra touch he put in the pies was cardomom instead of the cinnamon. It was amazing.
920. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:21:13 PM
Esca is indeed terrific. And they will make you Carbonara exactly the way you like it, but you would be foolish to order that when you can get pasta with uni instead.
921. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:21:38 PM
I mean butcher shops other than in ethnic enclaves in New York or the like. I mean just a street-corner butcher shop as you have in nearly any country.
Fielding, I have never been in the two states you've mentioned. I'm in the Northeast.
922. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:21:57 PM
Forgive me, but I thought everybody used cardomom in their pumpkin dishes.
923. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:22:34 PM
Pseuder,
You know, one of the places I happen to spend quite a lot of time in is Vienna, Va. If you're there you should check out the Whole Foods supermarket, it's really very decent. Specifically, it has very good meats and chicken. All unprocessed.
924. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 1:22:37 PM
Fielding - Fair warning. There are a number of UofM alumni here who might not react well to you putting down Ann Arbor.
925. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:22:57 PM
BTW, you can get a delicious side order of sauteed pumpkin at an Afghan restaurant in NYC for two bucks.
926. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:24:22 PM
uni, if it indeed is sea urchin, is just something I have not yet been able to say that I enjoy. I have one friend in Paris who is always urging me/us to get the top of the line plate of fruit de mer in appropriate restaurants since he knows he'll get much of the really "good" stuff, like the urchin.
A failing on my part, I know, but hey nobody's perfect.
927. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:24:25 PM
Vienna also has a surprisingly good bakery, a very good little bistro called La Provence, and one of the best rasam-and-dosa joints I've eaten at outside India called (inappropriately) Amma's.
928. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:25:35 PM
On Eid al-Adha (nearly two months ago) we went to the home of a Moroccan butcher in New Jersey, where five sheep were slaughtered. He had made sure they were non-industrial.
929. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:27:30 PM
Ordinary American pumpkin pies have got cardomom? Then either they don't use very much, or in Yankistan there is a tasteless variety.
I thought the ordinary American pumpkin pie contained ginger, nutmeg & cinnamon.
I didn't even know Yankistanis use cardomom.
930. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:27:59 PM
JJ:
No offense intended to Ann Arbor (or Iowa). PE appears to be extrapolating his life at his college town to the whole US. He doesn't even know about American butcher shops. So I'm merely trying to knock on his parochialism.
On the other hand, I would have loved to have had a professor as brilliant and opinionated as PE, so its a shame for U of M that it doesn't have him. :)
931. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:32:21 PM
I don't know about American pumpkin pies (or other pumpkin/squash dishes) other than the ones that we prepare, but we have always used cardomom (frequently coupled with a bit of ginger, hardly ever with nutmeg, never with cinnamon). Certainly not a conscious decision on our part, so it must be something that either came from a recipe we used early on in our marriage or from one of our parents.
932. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:34:40 PM
One thing about US produce that is better here than anywhere else is sweet corn. At the Union Square greenmarket on Saturdays we buy ears that have been picked the very same morning and eat them simply with salt and butter that very afternoon. Unbeatable.
933. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:35:46 PM
PE appears to be extrapolating his life at his college town to the whole US.
Well, I am no longer at my "college town" as you put it, but the nine years total I've spent in Yankistan were in the middle of vast population centres, not some nowheres like Iowa or Michigan.
Let's take some 'ordinary' places just outside the major metropolitan areas in the Northeast that I'm familiar with. White Plains, NY. Bethesda, MD. Stamford, CT. Chestnut Hill, PA.
Have these places got butcher shops?
934. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:36:01 PM
street-corner ones.
935. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 1:38:43 PM
Street-corner grocery shopping isn't really a phenomenon in the US anymore. Especially outside the ethnic enclaves.
936. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:47:40 PM
"Have these places got butcher shops?"
No clue.
Street-corner grocery shopping isn't really a phenomenon in the US anymore. Especially outside the ethnic enclaves.
This is probably true.
Butcher "departments" of stores are not necessarily worse than street corner butcher shops. I'm sure that many butcher departments are first rate. But I agree that it is a short step from butcher department to mediocrity.
937. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 1:49:25 PM
all the same, the majority of Yankistanis probably now live in those amazing, barren, sidewalk-less Stalinist strip-mall development suburbs so you trio of New Yorkers can hardly be called representative except perhaps of that television comedy Seidenfeld or whatever.
938. Fielding - 4/20/2001 1:49:28 PM
PE:
Are you teaching now?
939. Dusty - 4/20/2001 1:54:57 PM
PE, I can't help you in White Plains, but Carl Elmer in New Rochelle has a real butcher shop.
940. CalGal - 4/20/2001 1:57:25 PM
There usually aren't separate butcher shops anymore. But you can't go thirty miles in any direction in my part of the world without finding a privately owned, tony grocery store with a full service butchers. These days even Safeways often have a butcher's department that will give you whatever meat cut you want. We also have independent butcher stores, but they are primarily wholesale--although you can go in and buy your own if you like. Most people do it through the stores, though. But just because we don't have corner stores doesn't mean that we don't have the quality and specialization they provide.
Cardamon is used in pumpkin pies, as well as cardamon bread. It is generally considered a spice of the nutmeg and cinnamon variety.
If anyone wants excellent Afghan food in San Francisco, The Helmand is the place for it. They do a wonderful sauteed baby pumpkin. But I go there for the aushak.
941. janjon - 4/20/2001 1:58:52 PM
Oh, no doubt, there are vast populated areas in this country where everything is just like everywhere else when it comes to shopping facilities - food, clothing, etc. Chain after chain after chain. Some places are worse than others. Atlanta comes to mind, where it is on the verge if not already becoming a truly unwieldly megamush. (There was an interesting article in the Times earlier this week about how the new census results show this dramatically - we now have 'burbs that don't relate to any city, just other 'burbs.)
However, even with all that muck, there is no question that this country has become much more sophisticated by many measures, when it comes to the types and qualities of foodstuff readily available. If not around the corner, easily by express mail. (Granted, I wouldn't recommend having a freshly killed chicken expressed.) And, certainly, many of the lesser metropolitan areas (say, St. Louis or Kansas City or Memphis or Pittsburgh or...) no doubt have developed more than just a thin patina of interesting food supply stores.
942. CalGal - 4/20/2001 2:01:07 PM
And, certainly, many of the lesser metropolitan areas (say, St. Louis or Kansas City or Memphis or Pittsburgh or...) no doubt have developed more than just a thin patina of interesting food supply stores.
My stepmother shops every Sunday at an open air market in KC. She gets all sorts of absurd foodstuffs that she can't live without. My dad says very nearly every country in Asia is represented, as well as a decent portion of Africa.
943. PelleNilsson - 4/20/2001 2:12:01 PM
But what about Germany then? Very nice bread. Sausages to die for. Excellent down-to-earth food like a Schweineschnitsel mit Brot or a Kalbsbraten mit Petersilienkartoffeln.
944. CalGal - 4/20/2001 2:14:24 PM
German food I do not like. I suspect I would feel the same way about Russian and Polish food. It's not any individual dish, it's what they do with the altogether.
945. labwabbit - 4/20/2001 2:16:16 PM
Foods that have more than three syllables are dangerous.
946. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 2:16:20 PM
East Slavic and West Slavic foods (as opposed to South Slavic, which is semi-orientalised) are generally bad, but not because the ingredients are terrible. The dishes are crap.
947. CalGal - 4/20/2001 2:19:54 PM
They overcook and overspice and mush everything up.
I like their breads, but only if they haven't done anything to them.
948. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 2:20:54 PM
????
With east/west Slavic food, it's the opposite of overspicing!!
949. PelleNilsson - 4/20/2001 2:24:34 PM
I agree with PE on Slavic food. Very glutinous stuff. I once had intestine soup in Poland. I didn't know it, they told me, and I almost threw up.
950. labwabbit - 4/20/2001 2:26:15 PM
I didn't know it, they told me, and I almost threw up.
Barn oysters...
951. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 2:27:00 PM
German and Austrian food sucks. I used to think it marginally superior to only Russian food. Since then I've eaten some eyeopening Russian meals here in the USA and now I know that in fact German/Austrian food is my least favorite on the planet.
Surprising really, because I like the food from Alsace. And Alsace has produced a series of superb chefs, to boot.
952. Jenerator - 4/20/2001 2:28:29 PM
I simply loved Jenerator's testament that she gives thanks for her Bloomindale shopping jaunts on Thanksgiving.
PE,
We don't have Bloomingdales in Texas. Secondly, if you don't like turkey it could be that you have exceptionally bizarre tastes or that you've never had good turkey. I mean, I don't doubt for one second that you're surrounded by enough people to cook excellent foreign foods, but I do doubt that you've had access to any spectacular American meals.
Having the local Afghan cook a hamburger for me will pale in comparison to the burger I could get from a Texas native. Marj's vindaloo is probably way better than a frozen lean cuisine vindaloo. Get my point?
Marj,
You were trying to be foo-foo in your comparison of UK grocers and US grocers, so I brought up a well-known grocer who has it all and a grand piano.
953. CalGal - 4/20/2001 2:29:19 PM
PE,
The last time I was at a German restaurant was about five years ago, and the host of the party was raving about some mushed up dish that tasted simply dreadful. It was overcooked but it also had a horrible flavor that tasted as if someone had dumped their spice cabinet into it.
But you are right, I am forgetting the many bland dishes that I have endured over the years. That probably outweighs the overspiced memory, which is just more recent.
To me, more than anything, the food is just....off. It's as if they deliberately seek to fuck it up.
954. PelleNilsson - 4/20/2001 2:29:28 PM
Alsatioa food is German food with a better sales pitch.
955. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 2:29:44 PM
I don't know if Pelle's ever heard of Marcus Samuelsson. He's a Swedish chef here in NYC, at a restaurant called Aquavit. It''s easily one of my top 5 dinner destinations, brilliant dishes, clean clear tastes and textures. By default, I've come to really like Swedish food though I doubt very much of it is like Samuelsson's stuff.
956. PelleNilsson - 4/20/2001 2:29:48 PM
Alsatian
957. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 2:32:30 PM
At least 7 of my 10 worst restaurant experiences have been in Austria or Germany.
By the way, I don't cook or like Vindaloo. Having said that, the authentic article is rather far from the fare Brit yobs like to scarf after consuming vast amounts of lager and before puking their guts out on the street.
958. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 2:33:04 PM
Germany makes some nice cookies. That's about it, really.
959. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 2:34:34 PM
I'm sure I'd prefer a burger made and cooked by an Afghan chef better than the half-cooked softball I'm likely to be offered by a Texan. What is a burger, really, other than a mediocre kebab?
960. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 2:36:51 PM
I don't mind German food at all. I rather like spätzle, potato pancakes, and various schnitzels not just the wiener.
Message # 952
Secondly, if you don't like turkey it could be that you have exceptionally bizarre tastes or that you've never had good turkey.
I've had wild turkey, really really wild turkey. That was edible. The stuff you eat, the frozen industrially mass-produced cannon ball, is inedible.
I do doubt that you've had access to any spectacular American meals.
I've had home-made meals in American homes, including several Thanksgiving meals when I was an undergraduate invited by Americans.
Having the local Afghan cook a hamburger for me will pale in comparison to the burger I could get from a Texas native.
Hamburger cooked by an Afghan? What are you talking about? Even hamburgers stink in America.
I've been to Texas once: San Antonio and Laredo. The food was crap.
Beef is an exception. American steaks are very good. But why do Yankistanis pour that rancid brown sauce all over their steaks?
961. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 2:37:50 PM
The St Louis area has improved greatly in number and variety of ethnic and upscale markets. I can get groceries of almost any variety with less than a 20 minute drive.
962. Fielding - 4/20/2001 2:38:22 PM
I sat five feet from Sean Connery at Aquavit. Beautiful restaurant, great food, a little unusual. Definitely a great place to go on somebody else's expense account.
Most other Swedish food I've had has dissapointed, but I've never been to Sweden.
963. Fielding - 4/20/2001 2:39:29 PM
What is a burger, really, other than a mediocre kebab?
That's like calling maguro an undercooked tuna steak. Ludicrous.
964. Fielding - 4/20/2001 2:40:03 PM
"What is a burger, really, other than a mediocre kebab?"
That's like calling maguro an undercooked tuna steak. Ludicrous.
965. PelleNilsson - 4/20/2001 2:40:13 PM
marj
I've heard of Samuelsson. From what I understand his fare is similar to that of top restaurants here in Stockholm. Of course he puts his own personality to work. You wouldn't like most of the traditional Swedish cuisine. Too German.
966. Fielding - 4/20/2001 2:40:20 PM
Sorry 'bout that.
967. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 2:40:30 PM
Exactly. The American hamburger is a tasteless version of minced meat kebab. I would take a sikh kebab or kofta or döner kebab or tsappli kebab or chelo kebab kubideh any day over the American ground meat patty.
968. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 2:41:09 PM
maguro is just tuna.
969. CalGal - 4/20/2001 2:41:42 PM
But why do Yankistanis pour that rancid brown sauce all over their steaks?
Many of us don't. We're a rather large country.
I don't see how anyone who has had a really good burger could say that they are crap.
Banks' complaint that we undercook burgers is revealing of a certain ignorance of their charm.
970. Fielding - 4/20/2001 2:41:46 PM
Marcus Samuelsson, btw, was born in Ethiopia.
971. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 2:42:28 PM
San Antonio and Austin, not Laredo. I don't know Laredo came from.
972. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 2:43:11 PM
Food snobs. Who would have thought?
973. Fielding - 4/20/2001 2:43:53 PM
A good burger should be charred a bit on the outside and almost raw in the middle. If made properly, it is nothing at all like a kebab.
974. janjon - 4/20/2001 2:44:03 PM
I haven't been to Aquavit since before Samuelsson took over (which means its been probably five even ten years). Wasn't very impressed with it then. Sounds like it is worth another try.
975. Fielding - 4/20/2001 2:45:49 PM
I thought Samuelsson opened Aquavit.
976. janjon - 4/20/2001 2:46:49 PM
He was adopted early on in his life, no?
977. janjon - 4/20/2001 2:48:12 PM
No. I am quite certain that Samuelsson was not the first chef there.
Do they still try to get you to drink what seems like in sum a bottle or so of various flavored aquavits?
978. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 2:48:43 PM
Message # 973: There must 12323 varieties of something called 'kebab' in 50 countries. You cannot say a 'burger is nothing like a kebab'. It is a kebab -- just a tasteless, unspiced version of it.
Message # 969: I think most of you do put that rancid brown goo over steak but don't admit when confronted. "American barbecue" may be a tolerable thing if it were not for that "barbecue sauce".
979. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 2:49:39 PM
I never said that burgers are crap. I eat them all the time. I cook a (Ismail Merchant-ized) version. I do believe, however, that I'd prefer one made by an Afghan than the common or garden Texan backyard variety.
980. PelleNilsson - 4/20/2001 2:50:19 PM
Tell me, an ignorant Herringistani: can you get a nicely undercooked burger at McDonalds in the US?
981. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 2:51:07 PM
If these burgers are so amazing why do Yankistanis always create towering skyscrapers of ketchup, mustard, onions, pickles, mushrooms, various cheeses, bacon, probably some salad dressing, tomatoes, etc. over the patty? Could it be the taste is unsatisfying so they compensate in the usual Yankistani manner of adding excessive bulk and frills?
982. CalGal - 4/20/2001 2:54:34 PM
I think most of you do put that rancid brown goo over steak but don't admit when confronted. "American barbecue" may be a tolerable thing if it were not for that "barbecue sauce".
You had mentioned steak. In fact, I don't put sauce on barbecue or on steak. I also don't like Indian meats that are drowned in sauce.
Banks--I was mixing and matching with you and PE, sorry. I just think overcooked beef is eeeeeeevil.
Pelle,
McDonalds is no more hamburger than Taco Bell is Mexican food.
983. CalGal - 4/20/2001 2:55:55 PM
PE,
So your sandwiches are all meat and bread, with nothing else?
984. Fielding - 4/20/2001 2:56:50 PM
PE:
"There must 12323 varieties of something called 'kebab' in 50 countries. You cannot say a 'burger is nothing like a kebab'. It is a kebab --just a tasteless, unspiced version of it."
Just two hours ago you said that ceviche shouldn't have added flavoring because it violated your precepts favoring "simplicity", now you argue that burgers that aren't spiced up like a kebab are bland. In the US, we call that a contradiction.
Burgers, when made well, are a primal, elemental pleasure. They are simplicity itself. Kebabs are often good, but more often enough, they are overspiced to hide their rancidity.
985. JJBiener - 4/20/2001 2:58:06 PM
Pelle - Tell me, an ignorant Herringistani: can you get a nicely undercooked burger at McDonalds in the US?
Yes. Just ask for one. You are still stuck with a heavily processed meat patty of questionable quality, but it is not overcooked. There are several places in St. Louis where you can get excellent burgers. My burgers are the best though.
986. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 3:01:49 PM
"I also don't like Indian meats that are drowned in sauce. "
Like what? Name one such dish.
987. marjoribanks - 4/20/2001 3:03:34 PM
Fielding,
The definition of a kebab is simply ground beef patted together. Thus, a hamburger is indeed a kebab. Also, the claim about rancid meat is puerile. How many rancid meat kebabs have you ever eaten?
988. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 3:05:26 PM
Message # 984
Just two hours ago you said that ceviche shouldn't have added flavoring because it violated your precepts favoring "simplicity", now you argue that burgers that aren't spiced up like a kebab are bland. In the US, we call that a contradiction.
Nonsense. Go back and reread. I said some things require simplicity. I never said everything must be simple. It's the result that counts anyway. Even the simplest ceviche has got cilantro and salt.
Besides, kebabs are not "complex". You're just thinking of elaborate Indian hocus-pocus spicing. Most kebabs are quite simply made.
Kebabs are often good, but more often enough, they are overspiced to hide their rancidity.
Here is what you put inside a Pashtun/Afghan minced meat kebab:
Ground lamb or mutton. Minced garlic, minced basil, sumac and salt. Grill. Roll the meat into tubules. That's it.
Hardly overspiced.
989. PelleNilsson - 4/20/2001 3:06:35 PM
JJ
You are lucky then, comparatively speaking. Here, a McDonalds burger is invariably a 1/4" thick overcooked patty. I agree with the Americans here that a nice burger is nice.
990. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 3:08:16 PM
roll first, of course, then grill
991. CalGal - 4/20/2001 3:10:16 PM
Banks,
Any of them. I don't care for the Indian sauces that I have tried. I generally get something like boti kabab or tandoori chicken and then eat it with bread and mint chutney or the yogurt/cucumber sauce, which I love.
Actually, I don't care for food swimming in sauces as a general rule. Unless it is pasta. So it wasn't a complaint about Indian cuisine.
992. CalGal - 4/20/2001 3:12:08 PM
I don't care for the Indian sauces that I have tried.
Since I then said that I enjoyed chutney and raita, that may sound contradictory. I am speaking of all the meat and vegetarian dishes that are cooked in a sauce of some sort.
993. Fielding - 4/20/2001 3:19:00 PM
"The definition of a kebab is simply ground beef patted together. Thus, a hamburger is indeed a kebab.
You mean a kebab is a hamburger. :)
Aren't most kebabs cooked on skewers? A hamburger may not be cooked on a skewer. I think that Texas still has capital punishement for cooking a burger on a skewer.
994. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 3:19:31 PM
Talk about simplicity is a bit ironic because the Yankistanis generally avoid it. Because the underlying ingredients are so terrible and preparation subpar, hamburgers are made into the skyscrapers of excess as described in Message # 981. And you got the so-called "pizza" in Yankistan.
The crust is five inches thick, soft, gooey and tasteless, made of overprocessed flour. Over this inadequate foundation is poured some thick red water based loosely on tomatoes. Then come the mounds of plastic mozzarella, sliced ham, olives from a tin, pineapples from a tin, alleged sausages, wilted peppers, tasteless mushrooms, onions, and god only knows what else.
This exemplifies the Yankistani overcomplication in compensation for the unsatisfactory qualities of the ingredients.
If the ingredients were ever any good, things would stay simple, perhaps just a simple thin crust with sauce and cheese. But not in Yankistan.
They even make sandwiches but putitng two pizzas together.
995. pseudoerasmus - 4/20/2001 3:19:47 PM
....by putting...
996. Fielding - 4/20/2001 3:20:51 PM
"Nonsense. Go back and reread. I said some things require simplicity. I never said everything must be simple. It's the result that counts anyway. Even the simplest ceviche has got cilantro and salt.
No. You were arguing that simplicity was an end in itself, a kind of gastronomic Occam's razor.
997. Fielding - 4/20/2001 3:22:54 PM
Most American pizza is indeed disgusting, but come to New York and you'll get addicted to the real thing.
I suppose that Pashtuns make good pizza too? Most of the world makes worse pizza even than the US.
998. Fielding - 4/20/2001 3:23:25 PM
American
999. CalGal - 4/20/2001 3:23:36 PM
PE,
Oh, don't be an ass. Either you're exaggerating for effect or you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.
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