15001. arkymalarky - 11/12/2001 10:01:52 AM
They're saying there was no indication it was more than an accident, but I don't know how they could know anything yet.
15002. Erin R. - 11/12/2001 10:02:20 AM
How can they determine so soon that it is an accident. It just happened, right?
15003. Erin R. - 11/12/2001 10:04:26 AM
Headed to Santo Domingo? So, a transcontinental flight, plenty of fuel in the plane?
15004. arkymalarky - 11/12/2001 10:07:36 AM
They got the flight number--567, I think. They said 246 passengers and 9 crew were on the plane.
15005. arkymalarky - 11/12/2001 10:08:35 AM
It crashed almost an hour ago, btw, at 9:15, they said.
15006. alistairconnor - 11/12/2001 10:11:30 AM
Jesus, I'm glad it was Webfeet who posted the news. She lives in Queens.
15007. Andonly - 11/12/2001 10:11:44 AM
"Frankly, Andonly's fixation with blonde people worries me."
Everybody has to worry about something.
The period during which all my boyfriends looked like Nazi ubermenschen worried my parents. I never did manage to marry a Jew. (Fortunately for all concerned, the folks were placated by the fact that my mate possesses an advanced degree in a respectable but semi-arcane field of study, and although half German, is not blond...)
15008. Erin R. - 11/12/2001 10:21:06 AM
BBC reports two crash sites--one where one of the plane's engine's crashed, and another where the actual plane crashed.
Witnesses report an explosion in one engine, then the plane taking a nosedive.
15009. Andonly - 11/12/2001 10:21:35 AM
When my sister finaly arrives, I am going to tie her to a chair. No more Turkish vacations until the security situation improves dramatically.
15010. Erin R. - 11/12/2001 10:21:38 AM
engine's=engines
15011. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 10:27:30 AM
AC,
Queens is very large, webbie lives quite far from the Rockaways. The area the plance crashed is rather unpopulated and open, by the way. It's on the outskirts of the airport. In a way it's fortunate the plane hit where it did, there are many places where the damage could have been much more severe.
How many planes is this down from JFK in the past two years, by the way? 4? 5? It's way too many.
15012. arkymalarky - 11/12/2001 10:29:58 AM
I didn't say anything about it at the time, but Mose was going to Spain and France this spring, and since most of her friends have canceled she doesn't want to go now, either. I'm not pushing otherwise. I'm not afraid to fly anymore than I already was, but I certainly wouldn't push her to, although she doesn't seem to be nervous about it at all, just disappointed that so many people are canceling.
15013. Andonly - 11/12/2001 10:30:29 AM
(CBS) Nov. 12, 2001
A plane crashed Monday morning in the Queens section of New York, and buildings reportedly were on fire in the neighborhood.
The plane crashed shortly after 9 a.m. and thick, black smoke could be scene in televised reports. Thick black smoke can be seen in the neighborhood of Beach Street and 129th street. Reports say there are a number of buildings on fire in the neighborhood.
The FAA said the plane was flying New York to Santo Domingo. The FAA said the plane was American Airlines flight 587, and it was an Airbus A-300, twin-engine plane.
Mayor Giuliani was headed to the scene.
All three of New York City's airports were closed.
There's LaGuardia, JFK, and--what? Are they counting Newark as one of "NYC's airports"?
15014. Jenerator - 11/12/2001 10:31:18 AM
Andonly, when you say Nazi ubermenschen, do you mean bad haircuts and closely cropped mustaches, too?;-)
I heard that the plane hit a gas station and several buildings are on fire.
15015. arkymalarky - 11/12/2001 10:31:22 AM
How many planes is this down from JFK in the past two years, by the way? 4? 5? It's way too many.
My lands. I wonder why?
15016. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 10:33:13 AM
yeah, alistair, marj is right.nowhere near it. but theres always next time. laguardia is just a few miles away.
french correspondent has just been informing aix of the news.
15017. Andonly - 11/12/2001 10:34:39 AM
"Andonly, when you say Nazi ubermenschen, do you mean bad haircuts and closely cropped mustaches, too?;-)"
I'm not fond of facial hair. Or chest hair, for that matter.
15018. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 10:35:39 AM
I seriously feel like it's almost obscene to enjoy myself lately.
Everytime I give back a little and say 'oh, well, might as well go on with life--who knows when it will end?'--I read another devastating obit (well, they're all devastating) and now--this.
15019. Andonly - 11/12/2001 10:36:29 AM
But back to important matters--does anyone know whether Newark has been shut down? I suspect if I try to call the phones will be jammed.
15020. ScottLoar - 11/12/2001 10:37:09 AM
What's astonishes me is that fully 40 minutes and more after the crash only then did we know for sure the flight, the destination, and the aircraft, despite the networks working phones and contacts to get information. First reports that the plane was a 767-300 inbound were wrong; only that the plane was American is later proven to be true.
15021. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 10:37:16 AM
One was that EgyptAir plane that some suggest the pilot downed by himself. Another is that PanAm(?) flight off LI that there is no answer for but some suggest was downed by a missile.
It is not too early to start speculation about terrorist attacks, I think.
So, let's consider the following. It's highly unlikely that it took place like the previous ones. Rockaway is almost underneath the take-off area, there would have been a minute or two after takeoff to crash maximum. So, if it is a terrorist attack it was a bomb or some sabotage that took place immediately after take-off. Or a missile from the ground.
So, I'd say there is a strong chance that it is not a terrorist attack. Or, if it is, there could now be the possibility that ground staff or airport personnel are in on the scheme.
15022. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 10:39:17 AM
Loar,
I'm with you, the information infrastructure is appalling.
--
Andonly,
Newark is shut. I'd bet it's going to be shut through the day. All bridges and tunnels are again shut in and out of NY. They'll most likely reopen in a bit, I'm guessing.
15023. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 10:39:48 AM
Newark is shut down. So are bridges and tunnels and JFK and Lagaurdia.
15024. RustlerPike - 11/12/2001 10:39:55 AM
Planes should be outlawed.
15025. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 10:40:18 AM
echo
15026. Andonly - 11/12/2001 10:40:49 AM
"So, I'd say there is a strong chance that it is not a terrorist attack. Or, if it is, there could now be the possibility that ground staff or airport personnel are in on the scheme."
If it was terrorism, surely the objective would have been to make sure the plane exploded over the continental US, the better to cause damage and instill fear.
15027. ScottLoar - 11/12/2001 10:41:31 AM
The only one who cannot be persuaded by the evidence that EgyptAir 990 was downed by any other than the "cruise" co-pilot Gameel al-Batouti is the Egyptian government.
15028. Andonly - 11/12/2001 10:42:55 AM
Thanks for the info, folks. Maybe my sister will be able to log on in Paris and we'll try to make make other arrangements.
15029. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 10:45:26 AM
Specialist an CBS says it fits the profile of 'catastrophic engine failure'.
15030. jexster - 11/12/2001 10:45:28 AM
Yasir Arafat expressed his "deepest appreciation" on Sunday for President Bush's public endorsement of Palestine as a state.
NyT
15031. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 10:46:20 AM
Well, Loar, I haven't read that famous Atlantic Monthly article, but i'm willing to believe it.
--
What is surprising and disappointing about the news coverage available right now, is that we're again reduced to panic over a long-shot of smoke rising from the ground. The details that come out are contradictory, and there is no authoritative official word. One hopes (a) that this shit ceases happening and (b) that the homeland security guys get their act together so that withing 20 minutes of something like this happening in the future there is a calm, informed, person in front of all the cameras telling us what is happening and all that we need to know.
15032. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 10:46:49 AM
goes onto say...Likely to be a 'terribly tragic accident'--consistent with eyewitness accounts of debris and engine falling.
15033. ScottLoar - 11/12/2001 10:47:43 AM
Yes, if it were terrorism "surely the objective would have been to make sure the plane exploded over the continental US", except that the plane was going to Santo Domingo and so its flight path would not bring it over the continental US at low altitude except immediately after take-off, and despite man's (and terrorists) best intentions - shit happens - as the PanAm flight failed to explode over the Atlantic but inconveniently scattered evidence over Lockerbie because of a flight delay.
I don't know if this plane was downed by accident or intent and no one can now say for sure.
15034. ScottLoar - 11/12/2001 10:49:06 AM
Speculation will prove worse than lack of immediate facts in this matter.
15035. jexster - 11/12/2001 10:50:04 AM
JABAL OS SARAJ, Afghanistan -- Anti-Taliban forces plowed across much of central and northern Afghanistan on Sunday, pushing south and west in a powerful offensive that opposition leaders claimed gave them control of more than half the country
Long Live Baba Jan!
15036. Andonly - 11/12/2001 10:50:38 AM
Loar, re Message # 15027, there's an article in the Atlantic about that (sorry I have no link). A former pilot assesses the black box info and concludes there's simply no way that crash was anything but a suicide mission.
15037. alistairconnor - 11/12/2001 10:51:40 AM
Engine exploded? If it wasn't a bomb, then it's bad news for Airbus Industrie.
I'm booked to fly into JFK next month. On ...
(just checked) an Airbus.
15038. jexster - 11/12/2001 10:51:46 AM
We have liberated almost the whole of northern Afghanistan," said Haji Mohammed Mukhaqiq, one of the three Northern Alliance commanders.
and long may you live my brick-dust comrade!
15039. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 10:51:47 AM
Now theyre talking about the plane's 'ingestion of birds' as a possible cause...its apparently a real problem.
15040. jexster - 11/12/2001 10:53:25 AM
Yes and grace a dieu for that last Alistair!
Boeing's in deep doo since losing the Joint Strike K.
15041. ScottLoar - 11/12/2001 10:54:00 AM
Yes, Andonly, I read The Atlantic Monthly of November 2001, pp.41-52, had referenced it before in this column, and my Message # 15027 was based on that article entitled "The Crash of EgyptAir 990" by William Langewiesche.
15042. jexster - 11/12/2001 10:54:48 AM
Abdullah^2 (NA FM) said, warning that the Taliban forces "have no escape"
15043. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 10:57:01 AM
Langweische saves his most damning evidence for the last paragraph. And it almost leaves you speechless.
15044. jexster - 11/12/2001 10:57:39 AM
"all my boyfriends looked like Nazi ubermenschen"
HOT!
Some girls have ALL the luck!
Well unlucky in love, unlucky in life..[sigh]
15045. jexster - 11/12/2001 10:59:13 AM
and I know its off topic but saw Private Ryan last nite..first time....
With memories of that SUPERLATIVE scene of SS Das Reich's attach on the 101 AB....Ando's now put me in heat
15046. Andonly - 11/12/2001 11:00:11 AM
"Yes, if it were terrorism "surely the objective would have been to make sure the plane exploded over the continental US", except that the plane was going to Santo Domingo and so its flight path would not bring it over the continental US at low altitude except immediately after take-off"
Sigh. Yes, that's obvious, but only means that if this is an act of terrorism, it involves a degree of technological precision not previously demonstrated by al Qaeda. Which would be bad news if we're looking at terrorism, yet at the moment suggests an accident. Rather the way the Egypt Air flight and the Long Island crash appeared to be accidents, and can never be determined with certainty to be otherwise.
I agree with Banks--it would help to have prompt and straightforward Homeland Defense spokesmen. A simple "We don't know yet what has happened, but here are the relevant details" ought not to be left solely to the electronic media.
15047. Andonly - 11/12/2001 11:01:52 AM
"Now theyre talking about the plane's 'ingestion of birds' as a possible cause...its apparently a real problem."
Boeing used to test its aircraft by hurling frozen chicken into jet engines in wind tunnels.
15048. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 11:02:11 AM
alistair, if you do go ahead with your plans, let us know. for now, our plans to visit aix before the holidays are postponed.
15049. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:02:52 AM
"We've all shaved our beards," one resident said. "It will be nice to kiss each other on the cheek again..
Mind still in gutter
15050. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:05:03 AM
"Public bathhouses, shut by the Taliban as spiritually corrupt, reopened over the weekend with prices jacked up 12 times--from 15 cents a sauna before the Taliban took control to about $2 on Sunday."
We don't even have those in SF anymore :(
15051. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 11:09:58 AM
CNN has eyewitnesses saying that an engine was on fire after takeoff (accompanying shots of engine lying four blocks from crash site) and that debris was flying off the plane before crash.
So, it's either a bomb (possibly a passenger with a small quantity of explosives strapped to his/her body, enough to blow a hole in the plane), or an accident involving a faulty engine.
15052. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 11:11:21 AM
Ahmed Massoud was killed by a person with explosives strapped around his body, apparently. So, famously, was Rajiv Gandhi.
15053. Andonly - 11/12/2001 11:11:35 AM
Or sabotage.
15054. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 11:13:22 AM
Well, yes, sabotage. I suppose the engine could have been "fixed' in a way that did not involve a bomb.
15055. CalGal - 11/12/2001 11:17:35 AM
It was TWA, not Pan Am, and it was six years ago.
There have been three or four unexplained crashes on the East Coast over the last ten years; another writer in the Atlantic had a very interesting theory about it involving EMP and the military, but she ruined her credibility by trying to crunch the EgyptAir flight in. The Egypt Air flight was 90% proven suicide before the black box.
15056. CalGal - 11/12/2001 11:18:51 AM
Arggh! before the voice recorder, I meant. In other words, the black box alone strongly suggested suicide. Too early in the morning for me.
15057. ScottLoar - 11/12/2001 11:25:51 AM
I reasonably counter Andonly's wayward speculation that if this were a terrorist attack "the objective would have been to make sure the plane explodes over the continental US" with an alternative and I get a sigh and the discouraging Message # 15046 as retort, confirming my opinion that any correspondence with Andonly just isn't worth the discouraging results; it's just jaw, jaw, jaw.
To Everyone Else: I don't know if this plane going down is calculated or not. Do any of you?
No, I didn't think so.
15058. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:30:25 AM
The Rush to Loya Jirga - FAQ's - Diplomatic Editor, Times of London
15059. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 11:32:16 AM
Who could know, Loar? It is only a measure of where we are today that the first thought in my head after hearing the news of the crash was "thank God it was only in the Rockaways."
--
Meanwhile, Herat has been taken over by the NA. They're definitely on the road to Kabul.
15060. CalGal - 11/12/2001 11:32:37 AM
I don't know if this plane is an attack or not, either. The thing that makes me nervous is that plane crashes into residences are extremely rare; plane crashes in general aren't all that common.
So in the current environment, a "natural cause" plane crash of this nature seems almost more unlikely than one due to terrorist attack.
15061. ScottLoar - 11/12/2001 11:36:18 AM
Yes, CalGal, but what remains beyond the pitifully few details available is speculation, and not informed speculation either as no film or qualified eyewitness reports (that is, technically qualified eyewitness who could knowledgably interpret what they've seen) have arisen. Again, speculation will prove worse than immediate facts.
15062. ScottLoar - 11/12/2001 11:39:12 AM
Ah well, I've got work to do. I remain gainfully employed.
15063. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:40:01 AM
Is King Zahid Shah still an integral part of a future government?
"Mr Karzai is certainly working on the assumption that the former ruler is the one leader who can unite the country. Although he might not have any long term constitutional role he could convene the Loya jirga, or grand council, that would encompass all the country's leaders."
15064. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:41:24 AM
Looks guys this belongs in the dog bite thread...this isn't terrorism or we would have heard something from the Royal Minister of Homeland Defence....
Or would we?
15065. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:48:43 AM
"FOR the fourth time in as many minutes we dropped to the bottom of the narrow trench, curling up like foetuses and giggling like madmen as the growing screech above us signalled yet another incoming Taleban shell.
The noise petered out and the half-dozen Northern Alliance troops huddled in the trench fell silent, then sighed as the shell thudded harmlessly into the riverbank a few hundred feet in front of us.
Muhammad Ghawm and his comrades leapt out of the trench and stood astride the stony escarpment from which they had been watching the most ferocious aerial bombardment and artillery exchange they had seen in years of war.
“Perozi!” Abdul screamed in Persian — Victory! — and a childlike smile of delight spread across his face. As Alliance forces swarmed over the hills and through the ravines of northern Afghanistan yesterday, galvanised by the fall of Mazar-i Sharif the day before, a savage battle was under way to wrench the Taleban from their strongholds in two mountain ranges west of the city..."
Why does our media coverage suck so?
Times in the Trenches
15066. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:51:59 AM
Two ageing T54 tanks trundled slowly up the side of the escarpment to join in the bombardment and fired round after round into the Taleban positions.
One of their commanders, Abdul Dian, yelled above the din: “These aren’t Afghans I’m killing, they’re all Chechens and Pakistanis.” In Russian, he added: “I’m having a wonderful afternoon.”
15067. CalGal - 11/12/2001 11:52:28 AM
Scott,
I agree; I was just saying that a terrorist attack is not an unreasonable assumption, considering the alternatives.
THE FALL OF EGYPTAIR 990
The title is misleading; this is actually a theory about the cause of the TWA, SwissAir, and EgyptAir crashes. I think she makes a good case for TWA and SwissAir; her contortions to make EgyptAir fit are laughable.
15068. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:58:36 AM
Dieu et mon droit!
I have seen nothing even close to this quality in the US Big Three...not to mention this close to the battle...
One man had lost his right foot and all his fingers. Another had a gaping wound in his right hip. The corpse lay on a wooden table in the corner, covered in a heavy blanket. One of his friends, a boy of no more than 17, entered quietly and stood at his side. After a few seconds the boy slipped his hand under the blanket and held the dead man’s hand. Then he quickly raised his other hand and wiped his eyes, hoping that I had not seen his tears.
15069. jexster - 11/12/2001 11:59:31 AM
Flock o seagulls Cal
15070. jexster - 11/12/2001 12:09:04 PM
Ari Fliescher, the King's Minister of Information has issued a Royal Pronouncement...
"It was an accident America...all loyal subjects must get back to normal...work and shop til you drop"
15071. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 12:20:09 PM
There are fighter jets overhead right now, it's all making me rather jumpy. As is this snipped from a UK paper:
The Pentagon has confirmed that it had been aware of a problem with the flight and had an F-15 fighter plane in the area, but it could not reach the plane before it crashed.
15072. judithathome - 11/12/2001 12:24:12 PM
Banks, I guess this means Ari is lying. He's standing there right now urging people to travel and get on with thier lives....
15073. alistairconnor - 11/12/2001 12:25:18 PM
Oh, where did you snip that from Marj?
15074. alistairconnor - 11/12/2001 12:26:00 PM
... and what on earth could an F15 have done? Shoot it down?
15075. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 12:30:49 PM
I got if from the Guardian, and of course it may be premature or wrong.
People like Fleischer should be completely ignored. His concern is the financial markets (the Dow crashed over 100 points on the news) and his boss's flighty poll numbers.
15076. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 12:32:43 PM
"go about your business" is not a brave, or even worthy, leadership message at this moment. Yes, no one wants panic including those very near the crash site. You do want something a bit more reassuring than clearly risible claims and assurances.
15077. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 12:34:36 PM
Yes, I think the airlines now officially have a dire problem on their hands. No one will want to fly, I certainly don't.
15078. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 12:40:48 PM
I predicted a few days ago that it would be hard to control the NA from advancing willy-nilly if the situation was to their liking. It appears now that they are on the verge of entering Kabul, even as Bush declared that he was with Musharraf in desiring that they do not take the capital. You cannot ruly control a force like the NA, even if you're their own commander. If things go the way they have the last few days, they could already be infiltrating the Taliban lines, and Kabul could be in their hands through the winter. That would be bad news for everyone save the jubilant NA fighters.
15079. janjon - 11/12/2001 12:45:08 PM
I've flown six times now since 9/11, including twice last week.
The security at the airports, especially before check in, is appalling. Lots of unattended luggage around with no one paying the slightest attention. Granted, explosions at those areas of the airports would "only" kill or maim, say, a few hundred people. But the psychological impact would be immense.
I assume that the various xray machines are doing their jobs and that those looking at what they reveal know what to look for and so on, but I don't have any real confidence in that. And, standards certainly vary from airport to airport. LaQuardia actually was the "best" in terms of giving one a feeling that it indeed would have been hard for someone to get to the gate with "bad stuff" in tow.
However, when looking out at the planes on the tarmac, and seeing not one bit of visible evidence that anyone was even looking at the area (no doubt not true), it didn't add to one's comfort level.
Long and short -Life is a crapshoot. Don't take unnecessary risks but go on with it.
Meanwhile, midtown was quite a snarl shortly after the plane crash. But very very civil. People know that snarls go with the turf these days.
15080. Andonly - 11/12/2001 12:49:19 PM
""go about your business" is not a brave, or even worthy, leadership message at this moment. Yes, no one wants panic including those very near the crash site. You do want something a bit more reassuring than clearly risible claims and assurances."
The end of the world is surely nigh, no other reason I could posibly agree with Banks twice in one morning.
We could use Tony Blair as head of Homeland Defense just now. It would be good, too, if Ari Fleischer would develop some unphotogenic skin disease or something, the quicker to be rid of him.
Loar: It's good to know there's still one patriotic Murcan out there who is man enough to get about his bidnis as usual in between urging internet ghosts not to jump to conclusions.
15081. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 12:51:22 PM
I was interested in the lack of security at Newark when I flew to Europe last month. It was stepped up from before, but still totally cursory compared to the checks at virtually any European airport, or in India.
15082. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 12:57:09 PM
Over the weekend, I had the chance to see several interviews with various world leaders. Again and again, I was struck by how impoverished this country is in terms of talking heads articulating its point of view. You have the slimy spindoctoring of Fleischer, and then the frankly less-than-believable Rumsfeld, and then the infantile playing-at-cowboy Bush. Whatever happened to Cheney? He should be talking, he's at least believable and grown-up.
Powell was the exception. Grave, informed, no-bullshit. I saw him being interviewed about the Saudi FM's recent comments about the ME and how US policy was "enough to turn a sane man crazy" and Powell was excellent. This is the guy who should be speaking for the US, at home and abroad, on Al-Jazeera and on CNN.
Not sixgun and ten-gallon Bush, with his "he's an evil man and soon he's going to have evil weapons" cartoonishness.
15083. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 1:01:12 PM
Khatami, with whom two long interviews were broadcast (CNN, Charlie Rose), was excellent. That is a guy the US should be doing business with, much more than it has been anyway. I think it most probably is making overtures behind the scenes.
15084. EricCartman - 11/12/2001 1:05:20 PM
Urkel Message # 14989:
This is nifty of physiology. Translated, it states that no matter how insupportable your position, to criticize it is to hurt your feelings, and thus justify your temper tantrums....I shall refrain from further hurting your feelings.
Sigh. It was a JOKE, retard. Bush famously let that phrase crawl out of his mouth during one of the "debates" with Gore, like a wounded 3rd-grader. I thought you'd recognize it.
Never mind. Just continue on with your banal references to my "temper tantrums" and such, as if I'm a recalcitrant, emotionally volatile 7-year-old. I think you miss your Acehole, don't you?
Rask Message # 14991:
This criticism has been bandied around for decades, but I don't think these critics have ever successfully refuted the argument that there wasn't a hell of a lot the US could have done to prevent the Iron Curtain from closing short of outright war. The USSR got to almost all of the Iron Curtain territory first. We might have been able to alter the boundaries a little (mostly around Czechoslovakia and east Germany, as I recall), but I think there was some value in agreeing to boundaries before allied and Soviet troops actually met face to face.
That's basically my thought on it, too, which is what I pointed out to Davis.
15085. EricCartman - 11/12/2001 1:06:51 PM
Urkel Message # 14992:
The analysis also makes meaningless any workable definition of terrorism. Our inability or unwillingness to challenge the Soviets, our institution of slavery, our Colombia Plan, all are acts of terror. Thus, how can we possible not be chastened by the just retribution that was September 11th?
I assume this load of horseshit is aimed at me, and I can only tell you to read more carefully. I have already pointed out that I do NOT think that allowing for Soviet hegemony post-WW2 was terrorism. Nor dropping the bomb on Japan. I have not even mentioned slavery, nor Israel/Palestine, nor the heartbreak of psoriasis.
What I have said is that our recent -- and current, in Colombia -- funneling of money and training to right-wing authoritarian governments and paramilitary groups does seem to fall under our nebulous definitions of "terrorism", or as Bush repeatedly says, "eeevil".
I have stated time and again that I could be (and probably am) very wrong. Maybe terrorism is what we say it is, when we say it is, because winners write the rules. Maybe terrorism, by definition, cannot be committed by guys who wear uniforms or suits, because the conferrence of legitimacy automatically immunizes killers who went through the proper bureaucratic channels. I don't know for sure. Neither, it would seem, does anyone else.
I didn't think I'd have to hammer out every detail for you, because I do think you're smarter than the average bear. But I'm beginning to wonder if I need to slap you sober....
15086. alistairconnor - 11/12/2001 1:11:16 PM
There are no previous A300 crashes which were anything like this one. The five which have crashed were all during landing phase, with dodgy automatism a likely contributor in several cases.
No fuel or engine problems.
I have no intention at this point of cancelling my NY trip. I feel it's my duty to support the US economy. Webfeet, how about taking me to Brooks Brothers or somewhere like that, and telling me what to buy?
On the other hand, I might be out of luck if the airline goes bust before then. Sabena crashed the other day, after the majestic Swissair bellyflop.
15087. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 1:21:33 PM
Connor,
My entirely baseless speculation at this point is that it was a suicide bomber, who detonated explosives secreted on his body. The limited (and unreliable) eyewitness accounts imply that there was a small explosion, then that debris was seen coming out of the plane, then that an engine or wing fell off. Reading all of this reminds me that Loar is right that speculation will be worse than the facts, but hey I'm speculating.
---
NYC is great during the holidays. Is this is family trip? I'll e-mail you later today.
15088. Andonly - 11/12/2001 1:22:07 PM
One of the engines was near overhaul status (in terms of flying hours). The plane had just been serviced; supposedly, recently serviced aircraft are most vulnerable, for whenever a mechanic messes with things, something right can be made wrong accidentally.
So far, the Authorities believe this was an accident, not terrorism. The lead investigative agency is to be the NTSB.
15089. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 1:27:54 PM
Calgal, it was Elaine Scarry who first wrote the piece appearing in the NYR of Books stating that electromagnetic interference caused by military activity in the waters off of long island was a possible cause for the downing of TWA flight 800 and Swissair.
She somehow got access to military logs which indicated activity on the dates of both crashes and at approximately same times (july 1996 and sept 1998). The real minutaie of this piece escapes me, but the general thrust was that both planes lost contact with air traffic controllers at approximately 7:15 pm for over fifteen minutes--at a time when the military was conducting tests with a submarine with hyper-sophisticated technology that Scarry believes caused interference with the transmissions of both flights. Flight 800 went down almost immediately after losing contact and Swissair came down 2 hours into the flight, a difference Scarry attributes to the ages of the planes. The Swissair plane was newer and by that logic, could withstand this scrambling effect a little longer.
Flight 800 has never been solved. Funding for an investigation into Swissair apparently never materialized. Part of Scarrys motive for writing the piece was to call attention to this with the hope that interest in it would be renewed. I dont know if this has come about.
15090. PelleNilsson - 11/12/2001 1:31:38 PM
I just heard on BBC the interesting factoid that on modern aircraft, the engines' attachment to the wing includes fuse pins, the purpose of which is to allow the engine to tear away without causing damage to the wing if subjected to unacceptable torque.
15091. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 1:34:40 PM
I would love to be your personal shopper and accompany you to brooks. I notice frenchman are into lavendar, at least the ministers are judging by the dashing attire of one of the members of the Concorde entourage which were photographed disembarking at JFK. As soon as I saw the lavendar pashmina, I thought 'so sexy, so french.' Perhaps we can do the same for you?
If you would like a place to rest your weary head, your welcome here. We have a happy little place --and you are invited to sleep in belle meres bed. I assume Lawerence et les filles are not coming?
15092. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 1:35:35 PM
Isnt it strangely cute that Loar and Banks agree on something?
15093. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 1:37:28 PM
Perhaps AC would like to purchase a handbag. All the "so sexy, so french" men seem to like them, perhaps Coach does one in trendy lavender.
15094. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 1:38:18 PM
Webbie,
Loar and I agree on almost everything. I find Loar to be a gentleman of great discernment.
15095. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 1:40:37 PM
You have to be really secure in your masculinity to wear lavendar. But I dont know if even Deardieu could pull off a Coach lavendar bagette bag. Or was that last year's? You know, I live in Queens so Im not quite up on these things anymore.
15096. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 1:42:00 PM
Oui, oui. Moi, aussi. But this time I think youre both wrong. And I usually agree with you on most things.
15097. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 1:43:27 PM
I don't recall quite completely, but I seem to remember AC toting a very chic little purse last time I saw him. It set off his shiny stiletto heels very nicely and so very useful!
15098. Webfeet - 11/12/2001 1:48:10 PM
Im going to dovetail into something totally inappropriate for this thread--but we saw a wildly entertaining western style burlesque with Bardot and Jeanne Moreau co-starring as road show strippers fighting a revolutionary war against corrupt spaniards.
It was called 'Viva Maria' and it was so bad it was good.
15099. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 1:51:19 PM
Aha, webbie. So you are having a little fun after all. I was worried by your earlier post.
I must run. In the meanwhile, please accept my heartiest condolences to the entire great borough of Queens. Our hearts are with you today.
15100. alistairconnor - 11/12/2001 2:15:40 PM
Viva Maria! I love that film! By Louis Malle, of all people.
(end of digression)
15101. CalGal - 11/12/2001 2:22:37 PM
Web,
I think the reasoning for both TWA and Swissair is excellent; I have seen no further comment on it since then. I wish she hadn't skewed her case by trying to make EgyptAir fit in. (I linked the article in later, did you see?).
I have always been skeptical of the NATSB's explanation for the TWA crash; I never wanted to believe in the missile, but it seemed at least as likely as their feeble effort. So 747s could explode at any time during the past 30 years (based on airline fuel usage procedures), and the airlines must change these procedures right away--but it never happened before and hasn't happened since? I don't think so.
15102. jexster - 11/12/2001 2:29:58 PM
Hi! slippy hitherao!
Water, get it! Panee lao!
"CHARIKA, Afghanistan, Nov. 12 – Afghanistan's opposition fighters today rolled over Taliban frontline positions and moved to within four miles of Kabul, meeting little resistance as they launched their long-awaited offensive toward the capital.
Continuing a remarkable string of victories that began with the capture of the key crossroads city of Mazar-e Sharif on Friday, Northern Alliance troops today also captured the key western city of Herat in a battle that began Sunday and was aided by local residents who rose up against the Taliban, according to an alliance spokesman.
In the advance toward Kabul, rebel forces advanced from two directions today, pushing their own front line forward about 3 miles from the Bagram airbase, and also moving across the Shomali Plains to Shaker Darah along the main highway to Kabul. Along that second front, which is the closest to Kabul, the opposition captured two Taliban-held mountainside villages, Estargich and Raesht, that had been the target of punishing American air strikes in recent days."
WPost
15103. Francis Urquhart - 11/12/2001 2:57:23 PM
Cart
"Sigh. It was a JOKE, retard. Bush famously let that phrase crawl out of his mouth during one of the "debates" with Gore, like a wounded 3rd-grader. I thought you'd recognize it."
I missed the joke, which is entirely my fault. Following up "Dewey Cheatem and Howe" with more sophisticated humor, however, is unfair, and I protest.
"as if I'm a recalcitrant, emotionally volatile 7-year-old. I think you miss your Acehole, don't you?"
I do miss him.
"I assume this load of horseshit is aimed at me, and I can only tell you to read more carefully. I have already pointed out that I do NOT think that allowing for Soviet hegemony post-WW2 was terrorism. Nor dropping the bomb on Japan. I have not even mentioned slavery, nor Israel/Palestine, nor the heartbreak of psoriasis."
Not everything, Eric, is about you.
"What I have said is that our recent -- and current, in Colombia -- funneling of money and training to right-wing authoritarian governments and paramilitary groups does seem to fall under our nebulous definitions of 'terrorism', or as Bush repeatedly says, 'eeevil'."
Having read the State Department defense and Amnesty International's criticism of Plan Colombia, your assertion, even in its qualified form, is immature and emotional.
"I didn't think I'd have to hammer out every detail for you, because I do think you're smarter than the average bear. But I'm beginning to wonder if I need to slap you sober...."
One or two facts dropped in the rants and yukkified prose couldn't hurt.
15104. janjon - 11/12/2001 3:01:59 PM
yukkified prose.
written by one who is intimately familiar with same.
15105. stostosto - 11/12/2001 3:11:12 PM
The plane that crashed in Queens was first reported to have been a Boeing 767 that was coming in to JFK. It turned out to be an Airbus 300 who was taking off from JFK. Why the misreporting? If they didn't know, then why not simply report they didn't know what kind of plane and which direction it was headed in? Is that common when such is reported?
15106. Cellar Door - 11/12/2001 3:21:31 PM
Factual errors are increasingly common in the News.
15107. janjon - 11/12/2001 3:28:02 PM
I was in transit when this plane crashed. Upon reaching my small office, I had brief (like one or two sentences) chats with four people before turning on the news. Each version of what had happened was different (including one when I was told that two planes somehow were involved and that a plane engine had fallen in Central Park). The common thread was conjecture as to whether terrorist acts were involved.
I haven't gone back to these four people and asked where they had first heard the news (and probably won't. Make that definitely won't, since my querry would be rather transparent.)
A natural consequence of living on the edge (as reflected by Marj's comments early on about how he sizes up what could be going wrong with planes in our New York sky).
15108. judithathome - 11/12/2001 3:34:19 PM
sto:
The media are more concerned with getting it first than with getting it right.
15109. CalGal - 11/12/2001 3:36:25 PM
I dunno about all the sneering. I regularly check the news online and so long as they say "reports" or make it clear that it's preliminary, I figure that's fine.
15110. CalGal - 11/12/2001 3:40:57 PM
Pelle,
About the engines--I believe that's so. Wasn't the big United crash in Chicago (1979, I think) because of that pin breaking when it wasn't supposed to?
The one time the tearaway isn't safe, of course, is takeoff. It's funny, because I can't remember the engine ever coming off when it was safe.
15111. janjon - 11/12/2001 3:44:42 PM
My understanding is that it is virtually impossible for even three or four engine jet planes to survive a disaster upon or shortly after takeoff when the disaster centers on one of the engines going kaput in a dramatic way, because kaput involves the destruction of essential hydrolic lines.
15112. CalGal - 11/12/2001 3:47:01 PM
I don't know that the hydraulic lines are the issue; I'd always been told it was just balance. I'll see if I can find out which.
15113. judithathome - 11/12/2001 3:47:37 PM
Wow, they are showing ground zero film on CNN of right after the crash...it was brutal.
15114. CalGal - 11/12/2001 3:49:51 PM
All aircrashes are brutal, even where there are survivors. Has there been any mention of ground casualties?
Janjon, I just did a search on "tearaway" and "takeoff" and came up with a NATSB report of a plane whose engine did tearaway during takeoff, and survived. Here
It's not what I was looking for, I just thought it was ironic.
15115. janjon - 11/12/2001 3:54:46 PM
Here is a story from the on-line version of the Times that talks about all the horrors that can ensue when an engine goes berserk on takeoff: It is Best Just To Tune Out When Taking Off, I've Decided
15116. CalGal - 11/12/2001 3:56:35 PM
Yeah, takeoff makes me crazy. BTW, the Chicago crash I was referring to was American, not United.
15117. janjon - 11/12/2001 3:58:35 PM
I can't get the link in 15114 to open.
15118. CalGal - 11/12/2001 3:59:27 PM
The Chicago crash still holds the record for lives lost in a plane crash on US soil, actually--even after this recent one. I'm not counting WTC for obvious reasons.
15119. judithathome - 11/12/2001 3:59:47 PM
Take-offs don't bother me at all but landings do...
15120. CalGal - 11/12/2001 4:01:27 PM
Really? It opened for me. Here's the link:
http://www.canard.com/ntsb/CHI/89A046.htm
15121. janjon - 11/12/2001 4:10:47 PM
As someone above (webfeet?) has alluded to, there is considerable irony in the fact that this plane fell into the section of Queens known as Far Rockaway. Far Rockaway is a very isolated beach area, which is mostly single home and very suburban in feel. It is insular, too, in that it is an area where generation after generation of (mostly) Irish-American families pass down their homes. It is an area where many fire and policemen live. It lost a significant number of men on 9/11.
Apparently at least 60 people on the ground were killed. I will be surprised if there won't be at least one or two immediate family connections to 9/11. Adding to the sad irony.
15122. judithathome - 11/12/2001 4:12:13 PM
The homes in that area looked really nice in the video shot by one of the residents near the crash site.
15123. marjoribanks - 11/12/2001 4:19:36 PM
It's a low-to-medium income area, by NYC area standards.
Janjon, that's 6 people on the ground presumed dead, not 60.
15124. pseudoerasmus - 11/12/2001 4:25:13 PM
Hamid Karzai gave an interview to the BBC Pashto service yesterday, saying that the Northern Alliance victories were making his job in southern Afghanistan easier. Which is of course contrary to what I've been saying. I hope he's right and I'm wrong.
15125. janjon - 11/12/2001 4:26:35 PM
6? Thank heavens.
15126. pseudoerasmus - 11/12/2001 4:30:19 PM
Also, it emerged at the weekend that Rahim Wardak -- a Soviet-trained Afghan government army general who defected to the mujahiddin in 1980 -- slipped into Kandahar in mid October and attempted a coup d'etat against the Taliban in the name of Zahir Shah. He managed to escape, consult with the king, and is apparently now back somewhere in Afghanistan attempting a mission like Karzai's.
15127. EricCartman - 11/12/2001 7:20:06 PM
Urkel Message # 15103:
Not everything, Eric, is about you.
I was actually 50/50 on whether your Message # 14992 was a veiled swipe at my argument in particular. Maybe I made the wrong call, which would downgrade your post to a generic asinine swipe. You lumped several grossly disparate events/policies together and lobbed the lot of them, indiscriminately pasting presumably anonymous squawkers with the sarcastic tag of "just retribution". As if you'd recently encountered some asshole on the street spouting that 9/11 was payback for slavery or something. Okely-dokely.
And all without even having to offer a sliver of your own definition of what "terrorism" specifically is and is not? Just say that suits, uniforms, and a functioning institutionalized bureaucracy collectively absolve any proxy brutality and be done with it. Really, your effete circumlocutions make me want to watch Frasier or something, and I can't have that shit.
15128. EricCartman - 11/12/2001 7:20:22 PM
Having read the State Department defense and Amnesty International's criticism of Plan Colombia, your assertion, even in its qualified form, is immature and emotional.
Ah. I was waiting for it, the solemn pronouncement of my "immaturity and emotionalism", as if you were patiently lecturing a hysterical broad. This from a guy who has, in the past, asserted that The Corner is a rational argument against legalizing drugs; and that a political candidate who professed his atheism/agnosticism would not get your vote, because he couldn't possibly be as "good" or "moral" as a person of faith. Also, Algore is eeevil because he pimped his dead sister.
Alrighty then. Leaving aside such sterling examples of intellectual probity and sober objectivity, suppose you explain exactly where you think I'm being "immature" and "emotional" in my analysis of the repulsive Plan Colombia. No yukkified prose this time, Chief. Be a man. Spell it out.
15129. Francis Urquhart - 11/12/2001 7:35:01 PM
I'm glad your wait was not long.
Did you read the links?
If not, read them (I offered one from a friendly source - the State Department -and a critic - Amnesty International), and
1) Demonstrate that they support your claim of Plan Colombia as terrorism, or
2) Demonstrate that Plan Colombia is United States terrorism against Colombia by other source.
You are the petitioner. As a wise man once said, "No yukkified prose this time, Chief. Be a man. Spell it out."
15130. jexster - 11/12/2001 7:38:12 PM
What in the hell are you talkin about Pyle!
15131. Francis Urquhart - 11/12/2001 7:40:24 PM
Sir, the private said "no sir," sir!
15132. jexster - 11/12/2001 7:40:54 PM
15133. jexster - 11/12/2001 7:41:46 PM
Carry on Private
15134. joezan - 11/12/2001 7:44:15 PM
Listened to NPR all day long, and the reports from the ground were all (judging from posts made here) much more useful and cogent than what TV was offering.
Two different eyewitnesses independently reported that living right in the JFK flightpath and thus very used to the sounds and patterns of the planes, this plane caught their attention because of a strange rumbling noise it was making - "almost throbbing", one guy said - while it was still all in one piece.
Sounds like engine problems to me.
15135. joezan - 11/12/2001 7:46:35 PM
...also, both of these eyewitnesses reported the plane was flying very low, before it started losing parts.
15136. jexster - 11/12/2001 7:53:03 PM
We are the target of enemies who boast they want to kill-kill all Americans, kill all Jews, and kill all Christians," President Bush said Thursday. When did members of al-Qaida boast that they wanted to kill all Americans, Jews, and Christians?
Let's take these one at a time. If you parse Hamid Mir's recent interview with Osama Bin Laden, it's pretty clear that Bin Laden wants to kill all Americans.**
**I bet OBL's got an exception for the Bader-Meinhoff Memorial Cell of the Radical Green Socialist Workers' Peoples' Party - Chico, and its commander, Eric "The Red" Cartman.
Slate
15137. jexster - 11/12/2001 7:56:15 PM
It was a flock of seagulls I tell ya now back to the killin people!
Tryin to keep this thread on topic is impossible. Who moderates this mess anyway?
15138. joezan - 11/12/2001 8:00:45 PM
jex:
Just tryin' to to put an end to the speculation, Commander Cody.
15139. joezan - 11/12/2001 8:07:20 PM
Wait - just one more!
Also, the pilot dumped the fuel in Jamaica Bay.
15140. jexster - 11/12/2001 9:07:35 PM
Damn it Joe....the Talibees have just abandoned Kabul...people are shaving their beards, kissing each other on the cheeks and burnin their bazurkas...
So what's up with this Thread?
Where are the rabid Motiers of 9/11? All frothing, foaming, blood and death....where are they now?
Its only you and me left so we shall celebrate...
A toast....Death to Taliban! Long Live Loya Jirga! May the Northern Alliance rule for a thousand years!
15141. jexster - 11/12/2001 9:13:03 PM
And I almost forgot 
God Save the Queen!
15142. joezan - 11/12/2001 9:13:18 PM
..or at least for the winter.
Salut!
15143. LadyChaos - 11/12/2001 9:17:02 PM
Khatami, with whom two long interviews were broadcast (CNN, Charlie Rose), was excellent. That is a guy the US should be doing business with, much more than it has been anyway.
Why? By having absolutely nothing to do with the Iranian government for over 20 years, we have (unwittingly) helped foster the most pro-American generation of any Muslim country in the world.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It seems that, at this juncture, the best thing to do wrt Iran would be to wait until democracy has fully gained the upper hand over the mullahs before we start getting chummy with their government.
15144. jexster - 11/12/2001 9:22:33 PM
CBS ran an interview with an NA tankist. He proudly boasted of running over 27 Talibee prisoners with his old ratty T-54.
Bad ass.
I hope Spielberg doesn't try to do this as a war movie....
15145. LadyChaos - 11/12/2001 9:24:44 PM
Speaking of which, I saw a trailer last night for the latest BruckenScott production: Blackhawk Down.
It looked awful. But I digress....
15146. joezan - 11/12/2001 9:25:14 PM
jex:
If I remember correctly, the frothing and foaming was in reaction to the pantywaists who were whining and wringing their hands about how bloody and demoralizing to the US this, uh...war was going to be.
Now, I'm not saying that fortunes cannot turn, and jubilant men and women cannot put the music back in storage, grow their beards back and put their burqas back on.
But with the Talis abandoning even Kabul, and 15,000 of their number already having joined the opposition - all with not one allied casualty, the pantywaists have joined their Tali counterparts and deserted the thread.
15147. jexster - 11/12/2001 9:25:23 PM
Yea Khatami rocks! I read his NyT interview...gave me an attack of At-Least_He-Ain't-A-Moron Syndrome on Saturday.
His line about "self-mulitated moslems" was OOH SOOOO much better than that Howdy Doody Doo-doo about rootin out Evil from the face of the earth.
I'll take Mullah Khatami over Mullah Moron anytime
15148. Andonly - 11/12/2001 9:35:17 PM
"Also, it emerged at the weekend that Rahim Wardak -- a Soviet-trained Afghan government army general who defected to the mujahiddin in 1980 -- slipped into Kandahar in mid October and attempted a coup d'etat against the Taliban in the name of Zahir Shah. He managed to escape, consult with the king, and is apparently now back somewhere in Afghanistan attempting a mission like Karzai's."
Wow. But who is backing him, if anyone? Our spooks or Russian spooks or both?
15149. joezan - 11/12/2001 9:59:01 PM
I found myself liking Khatami, too. Of course, three years ago I posted in the Fray that he was certainly the most rational leader in the Muslim world, and admired his balls for standing up to the mullahs, the ayatullahs, and all the other 'lahs.
But I agree with LC here - leave well enough alone.
15150. concerned - 11/12/2001 11:34:31 PM
Message # 14982
Snowowl -
You miss my point. The US is essentially a nation of immigrants and patriotism in the US does not therefore equate with demonstrably dangerous European nationalism, not to mention that of most other nations. Furthermore, if you read what I posted, I specifically did not say that it was better to be patriotic in the US than any other country, now did I? So, please have the courtesy to acknowledge what I posted in truth.
Thank you.
15151. concerned - 11/12/2001 11:36:10 PM
I see PM also misses the crux of my argument regarding American patriotism.
15152. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:05:21 AM
I thought King Moron told the NA to stop short of Kabul...
KABUL (Reuters) - Fighters of the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance entered Kabul early on Tuesday to the sound of small-arms fire as dazed residents emerged from their homes to see Taliban bodies on the streets and looters plundering government offices.
``We have taken Kabul,'' shouted one jubilant opposition fighter as he stood with a group of fellow fighters on a street in the city center.
Their vehicles were plastered with photographs of their legendary leader, Ahmad Shah Masood, who was assassinated in a suicide attack just two days before the September 11 hijacked airliner attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (news - web sites).
A few bodies of Taliban fighters lay in the streets and sporadic small-arms fire clattered in pockets of the Afghan capital as the opposition Northern Alliance entered.
``Down with the Taliban!'' and ``Welcome the Northern Alliance!'' shouted a few Kabul residents as they realized that the Taliban had pulled out of virtually the entire city in an exodus under cover of night.
Many others appeared dazed and confused, nervous about what to expect if the Northern Alliance had indeed captured the capital.
Small-arms fire erupted in some parts of the city, apparently coming from Taliban who had not managed to leave or had chosen to make a last stand.
Several bodies of Taliban fighters, distinguished by their mandatory black turbans, lay sprawled on streets.
Commander Baba Jex sez...King Moron...who he?
15153. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:07:53 AM
No Joe...CalGal..Francine....Concerned..AceyGirl...Pinched Dick all of em...talkin about golf and Columbian Drug Wars...
They ranted, they raved, foamed at the mouth...
But its the cold heart that kills not the foamy mouth.
You and I are the only real men on this thread.
15154. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:08:39 AM
First in War, First in Peace FIrst in the Pants of...
OH HI THERE THOMAS D!
15155. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:16:56 AM
MONDAY NOVEMBER 12 2001
Leading article
After Mazar
America must soon clarify what it wants from its Afghan allies
OOOPS...Looks like Commander Dotsum done Klarified our King!
15156. concerned - 11/13/2001 1:08:35 AM
Wassup, jex?
I would like to see the Bush Administration give the UN an ultimatum:
Either send peacekeepers (non US) to Afghanistan under UN auspices, or the US will pull out of Bosnia and Kosovo and will not pay any remaining UN dues.
I'd say that'd be a win-win situation for the US.
15157. concerned - 11/13/2001 2:22:43 AM
Reuters and other organizations are reporting that the NA has taken Kandahar Airport. Sounds like the Taliban may be about rolled up just in time for the start of Ramadan.
15158. concerned - 11/13/2001 2:31:05 AM
Apparently, Herat and Kabul have already been Tali-banned.
15159. concerned - 11/13/2001 2:35:07 AM
From AP: "Guard: Taliban take Aid Workers"
KABUL, Afghanistan, Nov 13, 2001 (AP Online via COMTEX) -- The sprawling detention center where eight foreign aid workers were being held was abandoned Tuesday. A guard said the eight foreigners, accused of preaching Christianity, had been whisked away by departing Taliban.
"With my own eyes, I saw them leave," guard Ajmal Mir said. Mir told The Associated Press that the Taliban loaded the four Germans, two Americans and two Australians into a black four-wheel drive vehicle at midnight and drove off.
"They said they were going to Kandahar," Mir said, referring to the Taliban headquarters, about 240 miles south of the Afghan capital.
Columns of Taliban troops headed south from Kabul throughout the night after the opposition northern alliance broke through their defenses and rushed to the edge of the city.
Just two weeks ago, American Dayna Curry celebrated her 30th birthday in jail in Kabul. She was arrested along with the other American, Heather Mercer, 24, on Aug. 3. The others were arrested two days later. They and 16 Afghan staffers were all charged with preaching Christianity in this strict Muslim country.
"This is a real mess," said John Mercer, Heather's father, reached by telephone in neighboring Pakistan. He was at the Taliban embassy in the Pakistani capital of Islamabad trying to find a Taliban official to speak to.
The aid workers were in good condition when they left, the guard said. He was uncertain which Taliban took the aid workers, whether they were from a government ministry or whether they were acting on their own.
15160. EricCartman - 11/13/2001 3:16:13 AM
Francis Message # 15129:
Fair enough. Rather than a cut-and-paste marathon from selected sources, or worse yet, another windy jeremiad from yours truly, I will try to make this as brief as I can.
First off, I want to make sure a few things are understood, so you don't waste your time making erroneous inferences:
15161. EricCartman - 11/13/2001 3:19:03 AM
So. Plan Colombia. I had read both your links, in addition to a great deal of other material (most of it State Dept.) over a year ago, when Clinton was moving to eliminate the human rights requirement from the document.
The AI link obviously damns the entire thing from top to toe. It is not explicit in mention of terrorism, but does mention the killing of civilians by right-wing paramilitary groups, under the tacit knowledge and acceptance of the Colombian military, and in turn, the government.
It's what one expects from Amnesty International, after all, so I won't dwell on any of it in detail, but I submit that they don't really have a vested interest in making shit up, or even exaggerating.
Your State Dept. link mentions Colombian President Pastrana as cracking down on rogue army officers. In "cracking down", he forced a general or two into retirement, and removed several dozen officers for "collaborating" with paramilitary groups in murdering Colombian civilians. I could not find any punishment harsher than "investigation". It's safe to say there is some gov't complicity in these civilian killings, another of which happened just Saturday, incidentally -- 12 villagers in the town of El Choco.
This State Dept. page has quite a few relevant links:
Plan Colombia Outline
Near the bottom of this page is a link to the State Dept.'s 1999 Human Rights Report. It's exhaustive, and exhausting to read. There's far too much stuff to even need to cut-and-paste; I wouldn't know where to begin. And it accounts a thoroughly corrupt military, and complicit government. It shows that we know exactly what sorts of people we deal with.
15162. EricCartman - 11/13/2001 3:20:24 AM
Considering that Plan Colombia was initiated less than a year after the State Dept. released this report, it takes an incredible leap of faith to consort with the Colombian military. But that's exactly what we're doing, sending Special Forces ops in for "counterinsurgency training". There is a human rights requirement outlined in the description of the project, but again, Clinton went out of his way to negate that in the summer of 2000. So much for trying to reform a thug nation.
So. You have cells of trained militia slaughtering civilians for political purposes, with the knowledge and tacit acceptance of the regular military and the government. You have regular army officers, many of whom trained with/by American Special Forces ops, caught collaborating with the killers, and getting no real punishment. You have an American President knowingly and willingly waiving a human rights requirement for aid, less than a year after his own State Department produced an exhaustive report detailing the Colombian military as one of the worst, maybe the worst, violators of human rights on the entire planet.
The connections are all there, and they're all well documented by the US Government. At the very least, it looks like guilt by association, which is basically why we're justifiably getting rid of the Taliban. So my question to you, Francis, is how all that does not comprise at least a complicit knowledge and acceptance of terrorist tactics?
This is not a ticky-tack finesse question -- if we are operating on principles in this war on terrorism, it would greatly seem that we are simultaneously flouting those principles.
And it can't be restated too often -- it's not as if Plan Colombia is the only choice we have, or even the best choice. We have other options, if we have the political and practical will.
15163. EricCartman - 11/13/2001 3:26:26 AM
Jexster Message # 15136:
Fuck you. Go back to your pretty pictures, numbnuts. As usual, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
15164. Khabees Khargosh - 11/13/2001 6:41:21 AM
Looks like Taliban are moving to the battle fields of their choice........the mountain ranges of Afghanistan, where they dont't just have to wait for the bombs to drop on them.
Cities don't have any importance per se. And it will be hell of a lot more difficult to track and attack scattered groups of people in the mountains probably looking to fight a guerilla war.
15165. Khabees Khargosh - 11/13/2001 6:43:03 AM
errrr....... guerrilla
15166. joezan - 11/13/2001 6:51:22 AM
I do think that most of the military elements of the current conflict have been handled very well thus far, with the expectation that we make a genuine effort to help the Afghans rebuild their nation.
Rebuild it to whose specs?
15167. PelleNilsson - 11/13/2001 7:00:26 AM
To US specs as per ANSI document XP3598d: Faraway, essentially harmless democracy, US-friendly when called upon to be so (AKA Australia). The Taliban can be cast in the role of aborigines with dedicated reserves in which to practice whatever they practice.
15168. joezan - 11/13/2001 7:37:15 AM
Northern Alliance Forces enter Kabul.
Well, it seems Kabul is now under the control of the opposition forces, its citizens obviously jubilant to see the Taliban gone - except for "the Shari Naw area, where hardline Arab supporters of the Taliban were believed to be hiding...".
My question for anyone who knows is, what happened to all the resistance the NA were supposed to have met here - not from the Talis, who have obviously headed for the hills -but from the citizens, who are reportedly fiercely pro-Taliban?
Was this support mostly instigated by the "hardline Arab supporters of the Taliban" mentioned above?
15169. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 8:12:58 AM
"My question for anyone who knows is, what happened to all the resistance the NA were supposed to have met here....from the citizens, who are reportedly fiercely pro-Taliban?"
Kabulis fiercely pro-Taliban? Who ever said that?
The NA has been expected to meet resistance in the south and the east.
15170. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 8:41:22 AM
15171. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:06:29 AM
That was a fine prediction, pseuder.
It was clear from the start that Bush's statements (made at the side of Musharraf) were unlikely and hopeful. It's hard to control a ragtag fighting force once it is on the move, and once resistance is sparse or neutralized. So, now the NA has Kabul despite Pakistani pleas that this not take place, and Bush's wishfulness.
You could deduce from this, also, that Musharraf has been essentially left out to dry by the "global coalition." The other partners, India and Russia particularly, openly back the NA and have secured promises that they will have a say as to the future Afghan government. It is entirely possible that they are now being catered to at the expense of Pak wishes.
This is not foolish per se. The Pakistanis have been widely accused of playing a double game, and even of covertly supplying the Taliban and of denying the US access to vital intelligence. The fact that Musharraf has taken his various pleas public implies that he is not getting a good-enough hearing in private.
But he will have a domestic backlash from the events of the last couple of days. He will be accused, with some justification, of having a lot less power and say-so in the the global coalition and with the US than he has advertised. And he will be accused of selling Pakistan short, of getting far too little in return for his rather unequivocal backing of US strategic objectives. He has a billion dollars to go back with to Pakistan, and a promise of more (including another billion pledged by various international parties including the Japanese and the ADB) but precious little in terms of the nitty gritty in Afghanistan.
15172. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:12:11 AM
I do give the US credit, today. Its approach may have been flawed, and there may be a certain hamfistedness to its policies, but it has managed to accomplish quite a significant change with a bludgeon in one hand and blank cheques in the other. There is enough promise of an unending gravy train, it appears, to persuade a significant portion of the hard-core Taliban's allies that it would be better to simply switch sides. This may well work in the south, esepcially as CIA-sponsored Pashtun former-mujahedeen are wandering about dispersing bundles of crisp greenbacks with the promise of more on the way.
The question remains about post-Taliban leadership, and interference from the neighboring countries. But today we have the clear indication of a largescale shift in the political and military scenario. The first part of the campaign worked. Simple as that, and if the NA can be persuaded (a fairly big if) to restrain itself in its re-occupation of Kabul, the poilitical impetus switches to the US and its allies.
15173. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:18:40 AM
Fisk, in his latest, effectively outlines the conundrum and dangers represented by a US-backed NA, if it does run rampant as per its established form.
he Northern Alliance's sudden victories in Afghanistan may be good news for the West but the bad news is not far behind. The Uzbek, Tadjik and Hazara gunmen who make up this rag-tag army have a bloody reputation for torturing and executing prisoners which – if resumed in the coming days – will plunge America and Britain into a moral abyss.
Chilling stories of more than 100 pro-Taliban Pakistani fighters shot dead after their surrender in Mazar-i-Sharif – and of Alliance gunmen "roaming the streets'' of the abandoned city – will not come as a surprise to those who are aware of the atrocities committed by America's new allies during the 1992-96 fighting in Kabul.
For the Americans – and for the minuscule British component of the West's military forces inside Afghanistan – the behaviour of the Northern Alliance presents a grave problem. As our "foot-soldiers" are in Afghanistan, we cannot disclaim responsibility for human rights abuses by the Alliance's gunmen; yet neither the Americans nor the British appear to have tried to control the army they are now helping. Indeed, it seems they may not even be able to prevent the Alliance from entering Kabul.
That last sentence, of course, has come true.
15174. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:26:38 AM
There are several stories circulating this morning, some of which are contradictory. All have rather large implications for this conflict. There is that report of nearly a hundred Pakistanis massacred after they surrendered in Mazar. Then, there is a somewhat less credible report declaring that the Taliban have retaken that city.
There is a claim by the NA that Mullah Omar has taken refuge in Pakistan. The NA hates Pakistan with a passion, so this may be discounted but not ignored.
There is also the statement by Hekmatyar (from Iran) that he is negotiating with the Taliban to form a coalition government. The Iranians do not want the King back at any cost, and they have major say-so with the NA. It appears that they are trying to supplant/subvert the US as key backers of the NA (and they have an inside track to do so). The next govt of Afghanistan, as far as they are concerned, will not be decided by the Americans but by the NA and specifically the part of the NA most loyal to Iran.
There is also this, which appears to further sideline the King. It may be an indication of what is in the NA strategy, and why the US's best wishes will go unrealized as facts are created on the ground despite its pleas and orders.
A top aide to the former Afghan king Mohammed Zahir Shah has accused the Northern Alliance of violating a prior agreement with the exiled monarch by entering the Afghan capital this morning. The aide, Abdul Sattar Sirat, said Zahir Shah was concerned about the safety of the capital's residents and that his entourage was surprised by the unexpected capture of the city by the Northern Alliance soldiers. "This was something new and beyond our expectations. It was agreed before that Kabul be demilitarised," he said. "We do not know the reason why they entered Kabul, but we are concerned about the safety of the people's lives and property."
15176. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:35:13 AM
Whether deliberate or not, the US should apologize for the following, as damge control.
The Kabul office of the Arab satellite channel Al–Jazeera, which the United States has criticized for its coverage of the Afghan campaign, was destroyed early on Tuesday by a US missile, the channel's managing director said.
No one was in the office when it was hit before dawn. The 10 staffers, including reporter Tasir Alouni, operating out of the office were believed safe, but their whereabouts were not known, said managing director Mohammed Jassim al–Ali.
"All our equipment has been destroyed, but we believe that all our crew are safe," al–Ali told The Associated Press in a telephone interview from Qatar, the channel's headquarters. He estimated the loss at dlrs 800,000.
This Alouni fellow is a bit of a hero in the Arabic-speaking world, he's become the eyes and ears of the Muslim world on Al-Jazeera, repeatedly and emotionally commenting on civilian losses and suffering.
15177. rubberducky - 11/13/2001 9:35:28 AM
Banks's repeat 15175 was deleted
15178. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:35:40 AM
Toys.
15179. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:37:21 AM
It should be noted that contrary to Urkel's trumpetings, the German chancellor is having a great deal of trouble mustering political support for his troops commitment to the US-led coalition. He's even threatened to resign if he's not backed.
15180. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:42:00 AM
Thanks, ducks. You run an impressively tight ship here. 
Kabulis bust out their radios, music is no longer illegal.
15181. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 9:44:36 AM
BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson and a BBC team were greeted by jubilant scenes as they entered Kabul ahead of Northern Alliance troops. Travelling by foot, bicycle and taxi, Simpson described the scenes he and his BBC colleagues found:
"People are going absolutely crazy.
"It is quite difficult sometimes to get through the crowds. They want to touch us, push us.
You could sense the air of relief and gratitude and freedom
"They are chanting 'Death to Pakistan, death to the Taleban' and I'm afraid I think they probably mean it.
"I would not want to be a Taleban soldier on the streets at this moment.
"I've heard some shooting. Some of it was joyful shooting in the air, some of it was to kill people or execute them perhaps.
"I haven't heard any incoming fire which might have come from the Taleban themselves.
But arriving at the Intercontinental Hotel in the centre of the city, journalists spotted a group of seven Arab Taleban -trying to escape.
"Frankly there can only be one result.
"We have already seen Arab bodies in the streets and their lives must be shortened.
"They are not going to surrender and they are not going to be shown mercy if they are caught.
"It shows there are going to be groups like this and they are going to be hunted down "
15182. Jenerator - 11/13/2001 9:47:35 AM
Concerned, 15183. jexster - 11/13/2001 9:49:14 AM The LAT says they were moved. Sorry Jen. 15184. jexster - 11/13/2001 9:50:41 AM Looks like the NA doesn't pay any more attention to Bush than Americans do, except that we're glad that he doesn't have anthrax and they don't care..... 15185. Jenerator - 11/13/2001 9:53:06 AM I believe that they were moved it's when they were moved that I question. My biggst fear is that the Taliban will place them in a dangerous place so that we will bomb them, then they could wipe their hands of responsibility and cry out against more injustices of the US. 15187. jexster - 11/13/2001 9:53:59 AM 15188. rubberducky - 11/13/2001 9:55:25 AM Jex's repeat 15186 was deleted as well 15189. jexster - 11/13/2001 9:57:47 AM Sorry... 15190. Francis Urquhart - 11/13/2001 9:57:58 AM Marj 15191. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 9:58:30 AM The NA forces inside Kabul are exclusively Tajik Jamiat forces. I wonder what may happen when Uzbek Junbish and Hazara Wahdat forces want a piece of Kabul. 15192. jexster - 11/13/2001 9:59:18 AM Sorry Duck..Eric the Red admonished me to post purty pictures.. 15193. jexster - 11/13/2001 10:01:17 AM Naaaa....they want bargainning chips... 15194. rubberducky - 11/13/2001 10:01:23 AM Jex: pics are fine as long as they are related to the thread topic, otherwise, they'll be moved. 15195. Francis Urquhart - 11/13/2001 10:01:38 AM pseudo 15196. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 10:04:32 AM Actually, I want all the Arabs killed by Afghans. 15197. jexster - 11/13/2001 10:06:14 AM Let's see..I am Abdullah-Squared...Foreign Minister of the NA, now of Liberated Afghanistan...my people have done all the fightin and dyin. 15198. JRoth - 11/13/2001 10:08:26 AM Now for Act II. But there are many loose ends. This guy Dostum is a nut-recently wanted us and Russians to outfit him with a nobile command post like an American division commander uses. A real megalomaniac and probably an alcoholic. His entourage has some scary types. Ismail Khan is playing a clever game. Many see him as the best counterweight to Dostum, but he has refused to take a larger role saying he wants to consolidate situation in the West. Perhaps he's doing the Caesar routine; "thrice offered..." 15199. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 10:11:51 AM Probably an alcoholic? Dostum is an alcoholic. This is widely known. Maybe American intelligence should read the press sometimes. 15200. jexster - 11/13/2001 10:12:42 AM Yea that Commander Dotsum is a real piece of work from what I have been reading.....apparently NA troops are following his fine example of running over POWs with tanks. 15201. jexster - 11/13/2001 10:14:28 AM Well Duck day late and a dollar short you are....more like a couple of weeks late..but better late than never! 15202. jexster - 11/13/2001 10:18:25 AM "Say..'Pervez'..that's a Mexican name ain't it? Why I knew a Pervez family down roun San Antone. You related? Ya know, I speak purty good Mexican. I layke you Pervez...Why you can come over and fuck my sister" 15203. jexster - 11/13/2001 10:18:30 AM "Say..'Pervez'..that's a Mexican name ain't it? Why I knew a Pervez family down roun San Antone. You related? Ya know, I speak purty good Mexican. I layke you Pervez...Why you can come over and fuck my sister" 15204. JRoth - 11/13/2001 10:20:42 AM PE, 15205. Francis Urquhart - 11/13/2001 10:23:11 AM Cart 15206. jexster - 11/13/2001 10:25:36 AM BTW, hats off to the Brits- these guys are pretty good 15207. jexster - 11/13/2001 10:30:43 AM 15208. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 10:35:13 AM Message # 15204 15209. concerned - 11/13/2001 10:50:33 AM The latest talk is of a joint Turkish/Pakistani peacekeeping force in Afghanistan, although the contributions of other countries, such as India, would be welcome, IMO. The Turks would undoubtedly be useful in counteracting the more erratic Middle East elements in any transitional Afghani govt., plus they have Islamic 'street cred'. 15210. Wombat - 11/13/2001 10:53:07 AM If NA forces limit themselves to killing Arabs and Pakistanis, they will not lose support in the cities they have taken. It might also discourage additional recruits. 15211. Wombat - 11/13/2001 10:57:48 AM Concerned: 15212. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 11:01:08 AM Everyone talks about Turkey as an ideal neutral but Muslim country but that is not at all the case. Turkey has been a major partisan in the Afghan civil war, siding with and nuturing Dostum's Uzbek Junbish militia. I don't think the Turks are a good idea. 15213. Wombat - 11/13/2001 11:01:40 AM It should also be clear that we have been doing far more bombing and terrorizing of Taliban fighters than any accidental attacks on civilians, and that if critics were intellectually honest with themselves, they would realize that. 15214. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 11:03:12 AM No country which has had a hand in the Afghan civil war should participate in any peace-keeping force in Afghanistan. Not Turkey, not Iran, not India, none of the Central Asian countries, certainly not Pakistan, and certainly none of the Arab countries. That leaves Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Albania and some African countries as the only disinterested Muslim countries.... 15215. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:06:53 AM First of all, putting the NA and the Paki troops into the same arena is ridiculous. 15216. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 11:10:22 AM "It's a fact, and it is a big part of all these defections you've seen to the NA." 15217. Wombat - 11/13/2001 11:15:19 AM Michael Ignatieff has a good piece in Salon. 15218. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:15:31 AM Well, the dollars-for-support campaign hasn't shown any concrete results among the Pashtun yet. But that is surely what Karzai is attempting, along with assorted others we have not heard about. 15220. concerned - 11/13/2001 11:16:10 AM (the US) has paid up all of its UN arrears,.. 15221. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:18:32 AM In the short term, it looks as though the US will reach its objectives quite impressively. It is the medium and long term that is so worrying, but it has to be admitted that the short term scenario has improved dramatically from, say, ten days ago when it looked like the Taliban and NA both showed no signs of moving and the TV screens showed only civilian suffering not the genuine civilian jubilation that the BBC (among others) has been broadcasting. 15222. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:19:43 AM It doesn't correlate. Over the weekend Powell said, unequivocally, that the US has settled its entire arrears to the UN and will not fall behind in payments again. 15223. rubberducky - 11/13/2001 11:22:33 AM i'm going to stop posting when i delete a repeat post. if you see a missing number without an explanation, 15219 for example, assume it was a repeat. 15224. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:24:26 AM There is a real fear, by the way, that what we are seeing is the first signs of a move to consolidate the Taliban into the rulers of a Pakhtoonistan. This would destabilize Pakistan quite thoroughly. I think the likelihood of such a state has gone up, now, from less than 1% to maybe closer to 25%. In other words, it is a genuine possibility that you'll see the Pathans rally together despite the international border separating their populace. 15225. concerned - 11/13/2001 11:30:04 AM Re. 15223 - 15226. concerned - 11/13/2001 11:37:27 AM Re. 15224 - 15227. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:47:42 AM You need only spend an afternoon walking through the Storytellers' Bazaar here in Peshawar, a few miles from the Afghan border, to understand that America needs to do its business in Afghanistan — eliminate Osama bin Laden and his Taliban protectors — as quickly as possible and get out of here. This is not a neighborhood where we should linger. This is not Mr. Rogers's neighborhood. 15228. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:49:47 AM The above should have been italicized, it's from today's NYTImes column by Friedman. 15229. aunaturel - 11/13/2001 11:54:35 AM Looks like the Taliban can't run away fast enough. Kandahar will soon fall to a southern rebellion if the NA doesn't get there first. Kabul accepted the NA in as liberators, not occupiers, as I knew it would. The previous chaos was the only reason The Taliban got into power to start with, not that Afghanistan supported their ideology of death. The only reason the Taliban was able to stay in power was massive support from Pakistan and because they had largely disarmed or driven off most of their potential opponents, not because they were particularly beloved. 15230. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:55:48 AM Pseuder, 15231. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 11:57:28 AM Also from the Guardian: 15232. alistairconnor - 11/13/2001 11:59:41 AM Well, that's a pretty impressive outcome for the first stage... an amazingly quick rout. I'm as surprised and delighted as anyone. 15233. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 12:01:09 PM And this, an Afghan makes a plea. 15234. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 12:03:10 PM Message # 15230 15235. aunaturel - 11/13/2001 12:06:03 PM The Pashtun have no great love of bin Laden or the Taliban. The Talioban is largely a foreign product, not a native one. They will happily follow an alternative Pashtun leader who doesn't lead them down the road of perpetual war. 15236. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 12:10:58 PM re 15234: 15237. aunaturel - 11/13/2001 12:14:22 PM There is a rebellion kicking up in Kandahar. It may all be over except the wrangling very soon. We need that Loya Jurga real quick. 15238. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 12:17:05 PM More on the defections. 15239. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 12:19:18 PM The Christian Science Monitor article in Marjoribanks's 15240. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:21:47 PM Kahlil Amid reports that there is chaos in the streets of Kandahar and Jalalabad; that his anti-talibists have been activetly engaged in covert operations in the south for the past 15 days; that there are massive defections among Talibees in response to a call to return to Pashtun tribal authority, and that Loyal Loya Jirgists are now in Kandahar. 15241. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:22:12 PM Mass executions reported in Northern Afgh. 15242. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:23:32 PM The NA is killin Khasmiri's and Chechens big time... 15243. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 12:25:05 PM Who the hell is Kahlil Amid? 15244. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:26:38 PM That would be Karzai, not Kalil... 15245. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:27:11 PM Hunood and Yahood same same 15246. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 12:28:28 PM And what is a Khasmiri? 15247. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 12:33:49 PM Well, things are happening so fast now that I'm not sure what to think. I wish Hamid Karzai was saying something different from what he's been saying for the past month. 15248. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:40:27 PM Hamid Karzai! 15249. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:40:48 PM He thinks the Taliban is kaput. 15250. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:41:57 PM And what is a Khasmiri? 15251. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:43:26 PM Welcome to Peshawar. Oh, and did I mention? This is Pakistan — these guys are on our side. Fat chance. This whole region of northwest Pakistan is really just an extension of Afghanistan, dominated by the same ethnic Pashtuns that make up the Taliban 15252. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 12:45:04 PM I must say I find Jexster's Gunga-Dinning of me rather funny. 15253. jexster - 11/13/2001 12:50:51 PM CNN is now running a report on Jen's fren 15254. marjoribanks - 11/13/2001 12:51:15 PM BBC reports that there are unconfirmed accounts of "rebellion" in Kandahar itself. 15255. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 1:02:46 PM The aforementioned General Shah Namaz Tanai is also a former communist government army general. He defected only in 1990, when he attempted a coup d'etat against the communist government of Najibullah. He then joined Hekmatyar's mujahiddin, but after Hekmatyar's defeat, he joined the Taliban. The Taliban purged him from the ranks in 1998. 15256. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 1:07:03 PM Marjoribanks, at the weekend I read this book which I recommend: 15257. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 1:10:35 PM (but, as I said, it's badly written & organised.) 15258. jexster - 11/13/2001 1:10:59 PM Gen Shepherd, CNN: 15259. jexster - 11/13/2001 1:15:44 PM For a view contra, The Daily T.... 15260. jexster - 11/13/2001 1:17:39 PM They threw my man Kamal Hyder out of Khandahar for safety reasons this afternoon. 15261. jexster - 11/13/2001 1:19:19 PM He sees a split among the more moderate and more extreme elements of the Talibees and thus some some hope for the Loya Jirgist delegation now there trying to wrench Pashtuns away...or some of them....the rest headed for Paradise I guess. 15262. jexster - 11/13/2001 1:21:18 PM Kamal basically thinks that Pashtun domination must end or it will be hell to pay for Afgh 15263. aunaturel - 11/13/2001 1:24:40 PM I don't feel a great deal of hostility towards letting Afghanistan become two states if they will put an end to this incessant bloodshed. I don't think it will be neccessary though. They were quite prosperous and the closest thing to a liberal democracy in that part of the world prior to the coup asgainst the King. I hope it can be so again. 15264. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 1:28:28 PM I don't know where AuNaturel gets some of his odd yet confidentlty expressed ideas. Afghanistan between 1964 and 1973 had had a spell of constitutional monarchy with an elected legislature, but it's ridiculous to say it was the "closest to a liberal democracy in that part of the world". It's even more ridiculous to say that it was prosperous. Prosperous compared to now, of course, but it was still one of the poorest countries in the world. 15265. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 1:31:19 PM Hedayat Arsala, the former World Bank economist and Zahir Shah's chief emissary (and, as it also happens, Abdul Haq's first cousin), has announced that he plans to meet with NA leaders in Kabul. 15266. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 1:32:44 PM Message # 15263: "I don't feel a great deal of hostility towards letting Afghanistan become two states..." 15267. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 1:34:27 PM "QUETTA, Pakistan (Reuters) - Thousands of tribal fighters are advancing on the Taliban stronghold of Kandahar in southern Afghanistan after taking the nearby airport, witnesses said. 15268. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 1:35:31 PM If the above is true, and not just rumour, then the Taliban are more or less finished in the south. They will however persist in the hills, along with al-Qaidah. 15269. jexster - 11/13/2001 1:56:48 PM Exiled Pashtuns Preparing Return - Times of London 15270. jexster - 11/13/2001 1:58:19 PM A Visitor's Guide to Kandahar - Home of the Sacred Cloak of the Prophet 15271. Cellar Door - 11/13/2001 2:06:54 PM 15272. aunaturel - 11/13/2001 2:15:46 PM "but it's ridiculous to say it was the "closest to a liberal democracy in that part of the world"." 15273. aunaturel - 11/13/2001 2:17:02 PM And as PE says, propserous is relative. Relative to where they have been in the last 20 years they were indeed properous. 15274. aunaturel - 11/13/2001 2:18:16 PM "Every group except the Hazaras is opposed to a partition of Afghanistan." 15275. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 2:29:36 PM Message # 15272 15276. aunaturel - 11/13/2001 2:40:21 PM PE: 15277. rubberducky - 11/13/2001 2:41:08 PM Saw an interesting online poll that i thought i'd ask here: 15278. CalGal - 11/13/2001 3:01:02 PM I think Pakistan gets a higher grade than Saudi Arabia. 15279. rubberducky - 11/13/2001 3:02:55 PM well, not if they've been leaking to the Taliban, imo. 15280. CalGal - 11/13/2001 3:04:01 PM Whoops. Forgot to grade. 15281. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 3:18:46 PM Message # 15276 15282. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:25:51 PM He's in the Hindu-Kush foothills and he gonna die a martyr's death...Maj Gen Shepherd (CNN-Ret) 15283. ScottLoar - 11/13/2001 3:25:55 PM Surely Pakistan would rate highest: The President of Pakistan has endangered the longevity of his own administration, he purged some of the highest ranking military officers for criticism of the US and implied support for the Taliban, he faced far more numerous and violent demonstrations against support of the US than any other country and quelled those demonstrations despite an opposition press and clergy; Pakistan most likely shared intelligence with the US, a delegation comprised in some measure of ISI members twice visited with the Taliban and Afghan mullahs to deliver the US ultimatum and persuade (unsuccessfully) the Taliban to hand over Osama bin Laden, and the Pakistan government not only allowed overflights but actually allowed US troops and aircraft on its soil. What have I forgot? 15284. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:27:15 PM What grade would you give the following countries with regard to the amount of help they have offered the U.S. in the war against terrorism? 15285. ScottLoar - 11/13/2001 3:28:36 PM Of course Kashmir is part of South Asia: east of the Hindu Kush and south of the Himalayas. 15286. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 3:28:53 PM "Britain: A 15287. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:29:42 PM We haven't seen the pork that Putin of the Pure Soul has delivered to his buddy Mullah Moron....only hints...wait til cargo & fighter planes start flyin out of the old SAsian republics... 15288. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:31:22 PM Israel would get a C were it not for this idea that I have in my head, probably a fantasm, that the Mossadh is giving us intel... 15289. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 3:31:37 PM Message # 15285 15290. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:31:47 PM would = would not 15291. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:33:43 PM Kashmir...they make sweaters right? 15292. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 3:35:16 PM "TORKHAM, Pakistan (Reuters) - Anti-Taliban fighters reached the Afghan border post at the Torkham crossing to Pakistan at the western end of the fabled Khyber Pass on Tuesday evening, a Reuters cameraman said. 15293. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:39:25 PM CNN has an Afghan expert from one of the War Colleges on... 15294. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 3:41:57 PM Actually, south of the Hindu Kush doesn't work as a good geographical demarcation, because southern Afghanistan is a geographical continuum of the Iranian Plateau. 15295. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:47:48 PM The NA has asked the King to return to Kabul... 15296. jexster - 11/13/2001 3:49:23 PM I wish my buddy Fr. Bowersox hadn't passed earlier this year...I wish I knew what in the hell he and the Asia Foundation were doing in that shithole 15297. ScottLoar - 11/13/2001 3:52:53 PM Arriving in Srinigar from Kabul by plane, then going by bus up to Gulmarg, I didn't conceive I was in the Himalayas because I was still below the treeline. Mountains, yes, but not in the very midst of that new mountain chain being pushed up by the collision of India with Asia. But coming down from Srinigar by bus to Jemmu I could appreciate how high I'd been. 15298. ScottLoar - 11/13/2001 3:53:44 PM Actually, it was an Air India flight from Kabul to Delhi, then by another, smaller Air India plane to Srinigar. 15299. ScottLoar - 11/13/2001 3:56:57 PM It's called buzkashi (or similar romanization) and the sport is a goat's carcass. I regret I never saw it while in Afghanistan; it seems it wasn't the season while I was there. 15300. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 4:02:12 PM Buzkashi is played all year around in northern Pakistan. 15301. concerned - 11/13/2001 4:13:52 PM A constitutional monarchy for Afghanistan eventually with Zahir Shah appointing his successor, perhaps? 15302. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 4:17:00 PM Are the Taliban fleeing Kandahar and Jalalabad? I haven't seen reports on that. 15303. concerned - 11/13/2001 4:24:00 PM MSNBC is reporting that the Taliban is fleeing Kandahar. The NA at least says they expect to take Jalalabad in the next day or so. 15304. concerned - 11/13/2001 4:24:37 PM Then there are the uprisings being reported in both cities. 15305. pseudoerasmus - 11/13/2001 4:27:41 PM The NA enter Jalalabad? That should be interesting -- and quite revealing of what is to come in Afghanistan. 15306. janjon - 11/13/2001 4:29:03 PM any predictions about their reception, pseudo? 15307. concerned - 11/13/2001 4:29:25 PM From Reuters:
Thanks for posting the article about Dayna and Heather. Again, the reports are contradictory. Supposedly, they had been moved earlier, and as for the girls being in "good health", they're covered head to toe in veils! no one can even see what kind of health they're in, and I have it on good authority that the Taliban are starving them.
There's an excerpt from Peter Bergen's upcoming book
The United States had urged the alliance not to take the capital, 
"It should be noted that contrary to Urkel's trumpetings, the German chancellor is having a great deal of trouble mustering political support for his troops commitment to the US-led coalition. He's even threatened to resign if he's not backed."
Could there be a stronger show of support than when a European leader is prepared to give up his office if the nation's legislative body does not back him in lending aid to the United States?
Well, yes. A hearty backing by the legislative body. But just as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and Japan act with constraints, so to the European democracies, and at a time when you were bemoaning the entire campaign as a fiasco fast losing international support, I merely pointed out that Britain, Turkey, Japan, Italy, Germany, and the former Soviert republics were promising or delivering on military assistance.
I applaud your "The first part of the campaign worked. Simple as that . . ."
By the way, the BBC has some footage of Arab Taliban being hounded by NA soldiers. One Arab look absolutely terrified. 
I guess I just got carried away.
Like that's some big consolation I know.
"By the way, the BBC has some footage of Arab Taliban being hounded by NA soldiers. One Arab look absolutely terrified."
Then let's get those U.N. peacekeepers in their pronto. We wouldn't want any of the Taliban to suffer the indignity of absolute terror.
While ole Pervez & King George are havin tea in the Ovary Orifice (("Say Pervie, I didn't even know your name a year ago, UR a swell guy!) Pervez's Paki trash have crossed the border to fight with the routed Talibees....
What do you think I Abdullah^2 am gonna do when asked to stop?
Its going to be impossible to restrain the NA...what they will do, they will do...
Some speculation that the 'cave phase' may be easier since we can now bribe disaffected Taliban to reveal intell about likely OBL hideouts- maybe even locate him themselves.
What's your take on Ismail Khan? He's got some supporters claiming he is the best bet to:
1.) Work with other ethnic groups (evidently Herat was relatively cosmopolitan/)
2.) Is a civic improvement kind of guy who could use aid grants to start cleaning up this mess and get the infrastructure fixed.
BTW, hats off to the Brits- these guys are pretty good. Some French moron wandered through and wanted to assemble staff for a lecture on the intellectual distinctions of Taliban thought. Typical.
"So my question to you, Francis, is how all that does not comprise at least a complicit knowledge and acceptance of terrorist tactics? This is not a ticky-tack finesse question -- if we are operating on principles in this war on terrorism, it would greatly seem that we are simultaneously flouting those principles."
We are terrorizing civilians in Afghanistan. We are bombing and killing them in the aims of a greater good, for us and almost assuredly for them. But they are innocents nonetheless. As such, a simplistic view of maintaining our "principles" would require that we stop.
Your view of principles is pure, but placed in practice, how could we adhere to our principles and terrorize German civilians during the waning days of World War II?
Obviously, you are not that strident. If so, there is no need to continue the discussion.
So, that leaves whether Plan Colombia is a terrorist act against Colombian civilians or whether the unfortunate and often difficult rigors of foreign policy initiatives, especially with developing nations, produces some unintended and unpleasant consequences.
As you brough Plan Colombia up in the context of September 11th, I'm curious as to your answer.
I am glad someone else around here appreciates the Brits as much as I do...
But then again, proved again...the axiom great minds ever think alike...
JRoth/Commander Baba Jex Uber Alles! 
Who Dares, Wins
What's your take on Ismail Khan?"
Ismail Khan, along with Hamid Karzai (still operating somewhere in southern Afghanistan) and the late Abdul Haq, are the most progressive of the former mujahiddin. Ismail Khan is certainly the most progressive leader of the Northern Alliance.
"2.) Is a civic improvement kind of guy who could use aid grants to start cleaning up this mess and get the infrastructure fixed."
As I've told you before, most of the mujahiddin warlords outside Kabul had been the "civic improvement" kind of guys. Even Dostum was a responsible and efficient administrator of Mazar between 1992 and 1997. But unlike Dostum, Ismail Khan didn't skin his opponents alive.
Working toward reconstruction and "civic improvement" is not really the problem Most non-Taliban groups are interested in those things within their own regions. The question is whether fragmentation along regional lines will could be stable in the long term.
"Work with other ethnic groups (evidently Herat was relatively cosmopolitan/)"
All cities in Afghanistan are ethnically mixed.
If the Taliban believe that they will gain a significant advantage by 'circling their wagons' in SE Afghanistan, they are likely to receive some very unpleasant surprises, courtesy of US air superiority and access to ground installations in Afghanistan.
Marg's repeated references to some prospective 'US gravy train' for Afghanis is, I assume, primarily an attempt at humor.
I trust that fleeing Taliban forces are being hammered from the air as they head south. Very few should arrive in Kandahar, and those that do should be panic-stricken and demoralized.
If you think that the Indian military will be welcome in Afghanistan, you should think again.
It is now possible to declare a bombing halt for Ramadan, and devote the time to rushing food and other assistance to Kabul and other NA held cities. It will also give Pushtu leaders a chance to hop on the bandwagon, and allow people to vote with their feet and head north for food and safety.
Secondly, my reference to a US-funded gravy train in the region is not in the least bit humorous. It's a fact, and it is a big part of all these defections you've seen to the NA. A gravy train is expected, it has been promised, it's already being spooned out.
Concerned should note that the US has promised Pakistan a billion, has promised UNHCR another 500 million, has paid up all of its UN arrears, and has apparently (unreliable Pak reports) earmarked further hundreds of millions to buy Pashtun support in the Afghan south. All this before the rebuilding of Afghanistan, which will cost a great deal more than the money I've mentioned so far.
Which ones? 1200 troops defected from the Taliban to the NA in Bamiyan at the weekend, but none of them was Pashtun.
The policy may well work in the short term. The Taliban is clearly on the retreat, the writing for anyone who supports them is on the wall, and there cannot be that significant Pashtun support for the Taliban ideology. I admit that tribal loyalties run deep, but if the choice is live rich or die miserably, and this is seen to be a clear choice, I suggest that many Pashtuns will see their future framed in greenbacks and not in terms of martyrdom.
I read a news item yesterday in which the UN claims the US still owes the UN a billion dollars. How would you correlate that with your statement?
Thanks.
I have some doubts about that, simply from the fact that the Taliban has now been revealed to all as little more than Koran-thumping weaklings with a particularly atavistic cruel streak. Who in their right mind would want to continue to emulate that?
What makes me say that? I don't know, maybe it was the street vendor who asked me exactly what color Osama bin Laden T-shirt I wanted — the yellow one with his picture on it or the white one simply extolling him as the hero of the Muslim nation and vowing "Jihad Is Our Mission." (He was doing a brisk business among the locals.) Or maybe it was the wall poster announcing: Call this phone number if you want to join the "Jihad against America." Or maybe it was all the Urdu wall graffiti reading "Honor Is in Jihad" and "The Alliance Between the Hunood [Indians] and Yahood [Jews] Is Unacceptable." Or maybe it was the cold stares and steely eyes that greeted the obvious foreigner. Those eyes did not say "American Express accepted here." They said "Get lost."
Welcome to Peshawar. Oh, and did I mention? This is Pakistan — these guys are on our side. Fat chance. This whole region of northwest Pakistan is really just an extension of Afghanistan, dominated by the same ethnic Pashtuns that make up the Taliban. This is bin Laden land. This is not a region where America is going to sink any friendly roots. In part it's because the Pashtuns here all, understandably, side with their brothers in Afghanistan; in part it's because they were jilted once before by the Americans — after the U.S. just dropped Pakistan like a used hanky once the Soviets left Afghanistan. But most important, it's because of the education system here.
We could stop bombing entirely and it might slow the entire collapse by a couple of weeks. Or it might not. Our first priority has to be getting a functional government in place. If we can keep the UN from bolixing up the situation, so much the better.
1200 troops defected from the Taliban to the NA in Bamiyan at the weekend, but none of them was Pashtun.
The reports I've been reading talk about far more widescale defection than that, like the one reported here.
Hundreds of pro-Taliban Pakistani fighters appear to have been systematically massacred in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif after being callously abandoned by retreating Taliban fighters, sources suggested last night.
The Taliban soldiers fled from Mazar four days ago but failed to inform a contingent of up to 1,200 Pakistani jihadis that they were leaving. Opposition troops trapped the Pakistanis in a school on the outskirts of the city and then shot up to 200 of them, a commander confirmed yesterday.
"We gave them warnings to surrender," Mohammed Muhahiq, a spokesman for the opposition Shia militia, the Hizb-i-Wahdat, said. "They asked us to send representatives over several times, but unfortunately they shot them. Finally we gave the order to attack them. Some 200 of them [Pakistanis] have been killed."
It was not clear last night whether the Pakistani volunteers, many of whom had only just arrived in Afghanistan, were killed in battle or executed after surrendering. The Pakistanis, trapped in Sultan Reza school, continued to resist for at least 48 hours after Mazar fell, sources suggested.
"There are unconfirmed reports of incidents of violence and summary executions," Stephanie Bunker, the UN's spokeswoman in Islamabad, said last night.
Excerpts:
As an Afghan, I could understand the rationale for US intervention, provided it was principled and motivated by goodwill towards the Afghans. But we were naive to invest hopes in the judgment of Bush and Blair. After a month's bombing of an already devastated country, the folly of the strategy makes me speechless.
...
Military intervention should have been part of a political strategy to develop a broad-based governance. Before the bombing started, there were indications of a political process and a hope that a national leadership would emerge, perhaps under the auspices of the former king, Zahir Shah. Political elements were on the ascendant within the largely military alliance. There were opportunities that could have helped create a political process - former commanders assembling in Peshawar, moderate members of the Taliban, and the possibility of an anti-Taliban revolt by the people of Paktia and Khost in south-eastern Afghanistan.
However, ill-advised military strikes overtook the political process. The king receded; the alliance politicians retired behind their military commanders; no more anti-Taliban assemblies were organised; and there was no more threat of popular revolt. The military strategy of the coalition forces robbed Afghans of a rare opportunity to forge an enduring solution. Afghans have often been treated like this.
Yes, but those defections took place amongst locals from Parwan province, which is not a Pashtun province. What's worrisome is that despite the collapsing Taliban formations there has been no confirmed case of Pashtun defections.
Not yet. But there are reports like this one of Pashtuns ready to join in an anti-Taliban drive. It all depends on whether the coalition can be seen to have the upper hand in the South militarily. If that happens, perhaps through bombing or a few special ops hits, the picture may change rapidly.
Some pictures of defectors from the Taliban: 
By contrast, I mentioned yesterday (Message # 15126) that General Rahim Wardak is currently somewhere in Afghanistan. Well, according to Radio Pakistan, he is operating right now in Wardak province; and another Pashtun general, Shah Nawaz Tani, is also confirmed to be operating in Paktia province. Both Paktia and Wardak provinces are core Pashtun areas.
To the tank treads!
Harum, Varum, Kahn, Kalil, Karzai...all sound the same to me.
--
Pseuder, the Arab Afghans have no choice but to fight. But the Pathans who have till now backed the Taliban do have a choice. Do you think they'll turn on the Arabs (and Pakis) given a chance? In other words, shocking as it sounds, do you think there's a fighting chance now that the main shooting could be over by Ramzan, with the hardcore hanging on only in the mountains?
Yes that's him...just heard him by phone on CNN.
A typo....panee lao!
And its not a good day to be a Taliban...not good idea to hang around Peshawar much longer I should think.
My #315246 may be coming true as we speak.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0745312748.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
Griffin's book on the Taliban is much less well written and organised than Ahmed Rashid's book, but it's also less superficial. Griffin's chapter on the civil war of 1992-96 is the best account I've ever read, and his analysis of the involvement of ex-communists with Taliban ranks makes for a more complicated picture of the origns of the Taliban than Ahmed Rashid's somewhat simplified story.
"This is not a 'strategic retreat' by any means. With the lightening changes of the past few days, the uprisings in the south, this is a rout. They will try to hide in their caves but they will die."
"Afghanistan 'could be split in two'
(Filed: 13/11/2001)
A DEFENCE analyst has warned Afghanistan could be split in two over the fight for Kandahar, the Taliban's spiritual home.
Neil Partrick, head of the Middle East and North Africa programme at the Royal United Services Institute in London, said the Northern Alliance would face a more difficult fight once the Taliban had withdrawn to their strongholds in the south, particularly Kandahar.
Mr Partrick said the ease with which Mazar-i-Sharif and Kabul fell would not be repeated as the cities were traditionally unsympathetic to the Taliban and might have been allowed to fall for tactical reasons.
"I think there is a degree of surprise over the speed with which the Northern Alliance have moved into Kabul and there is a question mark there about the extent to which they can hold it as a unified force - not that I think the Taliban can resume control," he said."
He reports massive security crackdown by Talibees, searching vehicles for foreigners and spies.
Kamal (talks like Elmer Fudd) says its terror time on the streets of beautiful downtown Khandahar
Every group except the Hazaras is opposed to a partition of Afghanistan.
Travellers from the area arriving in the Pakistani border town of Chaman said they had seen 4,000 to 5,000 fighters capture the airport, some 30 km (20 miles south of Kandahar, earlier on Tuesday. They said they could threaten the city in the evening or on Wednesday morning.
The fighters were seen on the march at Shorandab mountains, some 28 km (18 miles) from the city, the travellers told Reuters. "
Who in that part of the world was closer?
How is this realted to my not feeling hostility to it?
"but it's ridiculous to say it was the "closest to a liberal democracy in that part of the world"."
Who in that part of the world was closer?
India.
No offense taken. (Unless you think I should. Then I'll be happy to oblige.) I should have narrowed the statement to "Islamic nations in that part of the world". Who else let their women vote?
India still isn't really "that part of the world" quite like the old Soviet Republics, Iran, Pakistan and etc. Geographically somewhat, but not in a lot of other ways I think you'd agree. Maybe it is just my prejudice, but to me India is part of south Asia and Afghanistan is in central Asia.
I'm not sure what part of the world Kashmir belongs in. Perhaps the next war wil settle it?
On Saturday, in a U.N. General Assembly meeting, President Bush both thanked our allies for their support and urged them to do more to help the United States in its war against terrorism: “The time for sympathy has now passed; the time for action has now arrived.”
What grade would you give the following countries with regard to the amount of help they have offered the U.S. in the war against terrorism?
Great Britain - A, B, C, D, F, Not Sure
Israel - A, B, C, D, F, Not Sure
Pakistan - A, B, C, D, F, Not Sure
Russia -A, B, C, D, F, Not Sure
Saudi Arabia - A, B, C, D, F, Not Sure
my answers: Britian - A, Israel - A, Pakistan - C, Russia - B, SA - C
Britain: A
Israel: A, considering the stress
Pakistan: B, on a curve
Russia: B
SA: D-
"I should have narrowed the statement to "Islamic nations in that part of the world". Who else let their women vote?"
Pakistan.
In 1973, when Zahir Shah was overthrown, Pakistan also had an elected government. (To be overthrown in 1977.)
"but to me India is part of south Asia and Afghanistan is in central Asia."
Afghanistan is neither. It is best described as Indo-Iranian. (Central Asia, I would describe as Turko-Iranian.)
"I'm not sure what part of the world Kashmir belongs in."
Definitely South Asia.
Now I ask anyone, which country has done more and yet faced greater difficulties and oppostion?
Great Britain - A (curve buster!)
Israel - C
Pakistan - B
Russia - A
Saudi Arabia - D
Israel: A, considering the stress
Pakistan: B, on a curve
Russia: B
SA: D-
What has Israel done?
The grade would improve if they shipped fat boi Sharon out
Of course Kashmir is part of South Asia: east of the Hindu Kush and south of the Himalayas.
Actually, Kashmir is somewhat in the midst of the Himalayas.
What should be the southeastern frontier of Central Asia?
Geographically, the Hindu Kush. Linguistically, the Indus. Culturally and politically, the Oxus.
However, officials at the border post said the Taliban were still manning the border post.
However, a Reuters cameraman said that at about 6.30 p.m. (1300 GMT), Taliban fighters on the Afghan side of the border moved aside as fighters of the opposition approached.
Fighters opposed to the Taliban swept into Kabul on Tuesday and said they were heading east toward Pakistan to take the city of Jalalabad, which lies about halfway between Kabul and the Pakistan border."
The above reports a different movement from the one described in Message # 15267. That was a border crossing by anti-Taliban Pashtun forces at Chaman, in Pakistani Baluchistan near Quetta. This latest is a crossing from the border near Peshawar, in the north.
"I am afraid that we have an ally in the NA like the Contras or the Vietnamese River pirates"
Its Loya Jirga time...bathhouses will rock; beards shaved; men kissing on the cheek (+++???) and they'll be those games with the horsies and the severed calves' heads.
Loar, Srinagar is in the vale, an area of (relative) lowlands which make a gaping hole in the western Himalayas.
If the Taliban is indeed fleeing Kandahar and Jalalabad, is Pakistan going to be the 'lucky' recipient? Perhaps Musharraf is readying his troops to take a few thousand prisoners?
DUBAI, Nov 13 (Reuters) - The Northern Alliance interior minister was quoted by Iranian television as saying alliance forces expected to take the southern city of Jalalabad later on Tuesday or early on Wednesday following their capture of Kabul.
"Our forces are moving toward Jalalabad and we expect to clear things up by